Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 53 (40th Legislature, 2nd Session)

40-2-53

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXV No. 53 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 5, 2013 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns NDP MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC Vacant Morris

1983 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, June 5, 2013 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame s uch laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom, know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr.

Speaker: Introduction of bills. Seeing no bills, we'll move on to– PETITIONS Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents. The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further impose d unrealistic deadlines.

If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings. Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nat ure and led by the municipalities themselves.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate. And this petition is signed by W. Tymchuk, E. Tymchuk, V. Zamrykut and many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Yes, good afternoon, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by A. Peters, S. Barkman, L. Miller and many other Manitobans. Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): I wish to present the following petition to the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

1984 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 Provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum.

This petition's signed by J. Wayne, A. McNee and Q. Pallister and many, many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Wayne Ewask o (Lac du Bonnet): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by N. Graham , M. Hiebert, C. Peresluka and many, many more fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Riding Mountain): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipality with fewer than 1,000 constituents. The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the T hrone Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines. If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamation should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government aff ord local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate.

This petition's signed by B. Thompson, F. Hutton, M. Orr and many more Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Highway 217 Bridge Repair Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And this is the background to this petition:

(1) The bridge over the Red River on Highway 217 outside of St. Jean Baptiste was built in 1947 and provides a vital link for economic opportunities and community development on both sides of the river. The Department of Infrastructure and Transportation closed the bridge after spending significant sums of money and time on rehabilitation efforts in the summer of 2012. * (13:40)

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1985

(3) Individuals require numerous trips across the river each day to access schools, businesses and health-care facilities. The bridge closure causes daily undue hardship and inconvenience for residents due to time requirements and higher transportation costs. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to repair or replace the existing bridge as soon as possible to allow communities on both sides of the river to return to regular activities. And this petition has been signed by J. Doerksen, L. Bouchard and G.

Chappell and many, many other fine Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the ret ail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increase s are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And this is signed by W. Orzech, W. Unger, B. Baker and many others, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase in the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed b y C. Kirschman, M. Stamler, J. Fehr and many, many other Manitobans.

Hydro Capital Development–NFAT Review Mr. Cliff Cullen (Spruce Woods): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Manitoba Hydro was mandated by the provincial government to commence a $21- billion capital development plan to service uncertain electricity export markets. In the last five years, competition from alternative energy sources is decreasing the price and demand for Manitoba's hydroelectricity and causing the financial viability of this capital plan to be questioned.

The $21- billion capital plan requires Manitoba Hydro to increase domestic electricity rates by up to 4 per cent annually for the next 20 years and possibly more if export opportunities fail to materialize. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro create a complete and transparent Needs For and Alternatives To review o f Manitoba Hydro's total capital development plan to ensure the financial viability of Manitoba Hydro. This petition is signed by G. Jefferies, T. Jonsson and M. Davidson and many fine Manitobans.

Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Ralph Eichl er (Lakeside): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I want to proceed with the following petition to this Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

1986 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are a necessity.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government not to raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This is submitted on behalf of D. Peyson, R. McQueen, J. Moffatt and many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) : I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The prov incial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial gove rnment not to raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by J. Filz, J. Friesen, R. Dick and many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Ron Schuler (St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This is signed by G. Singh Kahlon, K. Singh Sidhu, H. Campbell and many other Manitobans. Mrs. Hea ther Stefanson (Tuxedo): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by M. Bond, J. Werstiuk, T. Bjornson and many, many other Manitobans. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur- Virden): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1987

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without le gally–the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. And

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Le gislative Assembly as –of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And this petition is signed by A. Sparks, L. Heamon, D. Bradbury and many, many others, Mr. Speaker. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background to this petition is as follows: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any mu nicipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents. The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines.

If the 'progincial' government –if the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local demo - cratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings. * (13:50) Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amal gamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents to amalgamate. This petition is signed by H. Kennedy, J. White, P. Hammell and thousands of other fine Manitobans. Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents. The provincial government di d not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines. If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic r epresentation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any muni –amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate. And this petition is signed by P. Hieb ert, J. Wiebe, D. Douglas and many, many others. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

1988 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The p rovincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the P ST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. Signed by R. Overton, A. Thordarson, J. Fleming and many other Manitobans. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Eric Schmid, who is a Ph.D. student at the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology, who is a guest of the honourable Minist er of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade (Mr. Bjornson). Also in the public gallery today, we have with us Cindy Tugwell, executive director, and several representatives of Heritage Winnipeg, who are guests of the honourable member for Fort Garry -Riverview (Mr. Allum).

And also in the public gallery, we have students from Nellie McClung Collegiate, in fact, 22 grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Grant Caldwell. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Midland (Mr. Pedersen). And also in the public gallery, we have today 50 grade 4 students under the direction of Ms. Michele Paquette. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon.

And also, I wish to draw the attention of honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us today Mr. Gerry McAlpine, who is the former member for Sturgeon Creek. On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Hydro Capital Projects Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, we have had a challenge in getting straightforward answers from the Premier on a number of fronts in thi s session, but we'll try again today with a little accountability quiz on Manitoba Hydro. And let's just start with some true and false questions.

First of all, is the current proposed series of projects–the hydroelectric dams, the bipole line –the largest capital proposal in the history of Manitoba? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, there's no question that the build that will be occurring in Manitoba will provide power which will be needed by 2022, and it will be among the largest builds in the history of Manitoba. And the good news is, Mr. Speaker, our economy is growing.

We're growing at about 80 megawatts a year, and that –and if the member have–opposite has his way, which would be to stop hydro development in its tracks, we would be a net importer of power by the year 2022. That's when rates would really climb in Manitoba. Export Market Mr. Pallister: Well, I appreciate the first part of his answer, Mr. Speaker. Of course, the second part was erroneous, but–so we'll give him half a mark on t hat one.

Now, on the second question–now, let's try this one: Supplies of energy to the United States market where we traditionally have exported are up, costs of production are up and energy export prices are down. Is that true or false? Mr. Selinger: Not only was the entire answer I gave the first time around correct, the member was wrong when he said we should never build hydro for export purposes in Manitoba. The member was wrong when he said we should delay the growth of Manitoba Hydro when he knows full well that by the year 2022 we will need additional power or we will become an importer of power.

Now, the member opposite may want to do what he did with the MTS: run the utility into the ground

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1989 and then sell it off and privatize it. We want to build it and provide abundant power to the people of Manitoba at among the lowest rates in North America, which is exactly what we're doing right now, Mr. Speaker. NDP Cabinet Business Acumen Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, from a Premier who sued his investment adviser and claimed he had no financial acumen, that's pretty rich, Mr. Speaker.

Now, the NDP has no business acumen, couldn't run a lemonade stand and is resorting to simple talking points prepared by former university students, not based on facts but based entirely on fiction. So let's try again and let's give the Premier a chance to be factual in his answer with a simple true or false. The NDP Cabinet lacks business acumen. Is that true or false? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): The issue before us: Is there a business case to build Manitoba Hydro? It starts from the understanding that the Manitoba economy is quite different than when the member opposite was in power.

Instead of the economy languishing, and it was $34 billion, it is now $62 billion in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. Instead of the economy seeing young people flee Manitoba, we now have 125,000 more people living in the province of Manitoba. And, Mr. Speaker, we have customers that have said they woul d wish to buy Manitoba hydro. We provide 10 per cent of the hydro to the state of Minnesota, and Minnesota Power is saying they wish to buy more of that power.

Only the member opposite, who claims to be an expert in business, would want to take a policy approach where he cancels contracts to customers that want to purchase our power and puts Manitoba in an energy deficit position within the next 10 years. That's not smart business, Mr. Speaker. Conservation Measures Domestic Hydro Projects Mr. Brian Pall ister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, I know that the Premier knows what isn't smart business, Mr. Speaker. What isn't smart business is producing hydro at 13 and a half cents a kilowatt hour and then exporting it at 3 cents a kilowatt hour.

T hat wouldn't be good. That wouldn't be good business. Couldn't run a lemonade stand. We've got conservation measures that, according to the Public Utilities Board witnesses, are able to actually reduce our need, our dependency, on the use of hydro. And, i n fact, we could delay, according to the witnesses, we could delay these projects several years in the case of Keeyask and, in fact, indefinitely in the case of Conawapa. So would the Premier agree with those witnesses that using conservation measures to reduce the domestic dependency on power we produce is a smart move? True or false? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Premier): The truth of the matter is that when the members opposite were in office, there was no residential energy efficiency program. There was no Po wer Smart program for Manitobans. * (14:00) We came into office, the energy efficiency ranking of Manitoba Hydro's programs was No. 10 in the country. With the programs that have been put in place, we now rank No. 1 in the country. That is a true fact, Mr. Speaker. And it's very important that we encourage power conservation in Manitoba, electricity conservation, which is why we brought in the Pay As You Save legislation just last session.

The members opposite were bewildered by the program. The program will actually help Manitobans save energy. I only wish the Leader of the Opposition would save his energy by trying to stop Manitoba Hydro building for the future. They're the mothball party; we're the builder party, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba Hydro NFAT Review Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Another wrong answer, Mr. Speaker. In fact, we're the party that founded Manitoba Hydro. Now, here we have a Premier that has a problem.

He has a problem because the former chair of Manitoba Hydro says that his process, his NFAT project, needs-for-and-alternatives-to analysis is quote, fatally flawed, because–and now I ask the Premier, is this true or false? Is this NFAT process actually going to not consider major aspects of the

1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 proposal such as the bipole line, such as contracts signed with First Nations? Is it going to be a partial NFAT review? True or false? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): First of all, the Leader of the Opposition should apologize for putting false information on the record. There was no–there is no former chair of Manitoba Hydro that made the statement the member just put on the record. He is completely inaccurate and incorrect in that statement, Mr. Speaker.

Manitoba Hydro goes through several forms of review by the Public Utilities Board, by the Clean Environment Commission, by the Crown Corporations Council, by their own board of directors and certainly by their own senior management. And the important point to understand, Mr. Speaker, is that the power will end in M anitoba being available in 2022, and the members opposite want to delay the build of Manitoba Hydro and put Manitoba in an energy deficit position which will hurt the Manitoba economy and drive rates up for our customers. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on the final supplementary. Future Development Projects Mr. Pallister: –the record, of course, is the chair – former chair of the Public Utilities Board– Mr. Speaker: One second, please. I'd like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members to give me a chance to introduce them, to recognize them prior to them speaking, because that gives a chance for our Hansard folks, then, to adequately –or accurately record the information that the member wishes to place on the record.

So give me a chance to do the introduction part first and then we'll give the member a chance to pose the questions. Mr. Pallister: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker. I apologize. On the issue of the member's earlier comments, of course, conserva tion, what a wonderful idea. So why would the government be considering cutting the Power Smart program by 20 per cent? This makes no sense at all. You know, the poor little boy is out of step with everyone else.

The reality is that environmental groups, consumer groups, conservation groups, the former NDP premier and governor general, former NDP Cabinet ministers are all out of step with the Premier. He thinks everyone else is wrong, but the reality is hydro experts, present and past, are sharing with us the fact that the Premier is wrong, and they're very concerned about this massive proposal that will dramatically impact on the future of our province and they want the government to listen. So my final question for the Premier is this, it's very simple: True or false, the Premier has stopped listening? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, once again the member has gotten every question he asked wrong, and, again, the answer is false. We are putting in place the public review mechanisms necessary to give everybo dy a full and complete chance to intervene with respect to these hearings. They get intervenor funding in Manitoba. They get public resources and resources from the utility itself to put their best case forward on what they think the alternatives should be , and I can tell you that there's a big difference.

Whereas the conservation and energy and environmental groups asked for energy conservation programs when the members opposite were in power and were completely shut out, nothing happened, we now have am ong the best programs in the country.

Whereas First Nations people were shut out and denied any voice in the future development of hydro, we have now made them partners.

Whereas the members opposite thought they could mothball Conawapa and put it on hold, we have customers that want to buy the power, Mr. Speaker, and

whereas members opposite think that the way forward is to consume more fossil fuels like coal and– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The First Minister's time has expired. Manitoba Hydro Rate Increases Mr. Ron Schuler ( St. Paul ): Mr. Speaker, in a report presented today by Graham Lane, former PUB chair, he says, and I quote: Today's roughly 7 cents per kilowatt hour price for residential consumers could rise to 20 cents within Hydro's forecast horizon, bringing major problems for lower income households, rural and northern residences. Why does this NDP government disrespect Manitoba ratepayers?

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1991 Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Yes, unfortunately, as often happens in the case of Hydro, the member has inaccurate information, Mr. Speaker. In fact, it's well known that Manitoba –[interjection] Thank you. It's well known that we have the lowest power rates in the country, and going forward we'll have the lowest rates. The member only has to look to Saskatchewan next door that are doing a $15- billion capital plan – $15-billion capital plan –to do coal and nuclear, Mr. Speaker.

And Manitoba's going to do a $20- billion plan that's going to build dams that l ast a hundred years. And I will go with the hydro plan that'll keep our rates the lowest in the country of –next 20 years, like they are today. They're lowest today. They'll be lowest in 2020, lower than any other jurisdiction in the country. Mr. Schuler: In the same report tabled by Graham Lane, former PUB chair, he says, and I quote: I hold that the bodies presently providing oversight with Manitoba Hydro are conflicted and unable to properly protect ratepayers.

The planned Public Utilities Board needs-for-and-alternatives-to, or NFAT, review is unfortunately a sham. Unquote. Why does this NDP government disrespect Manitoba ratepayers? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I thought at least–at the very least the opposition supported the PUB. The PUB is und ertaking the NFAT. It's an independent third party, of which, I might add, Mr. Lane was chair for eight years. And the NFAT is being conducted by PUB. They're completely able to provide independent advice and they're going to make recommendations with resp ect to the future plan.

Not only has it been reviewed by the board, by the officials at Manitoba Hydro, by the Crown Corporations Council, but it's now going to NFAT independent review by the PUB, an independent third party. I am very surprised that members would criticize the PUB, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Schuler: You know, Mr. Speaker, us and many other Manitobans are criticizing this minister and this government, not the PUB. In fact, Graham Lane, former PUB chair, says, and I quote: Since 2008, Hydro has be en losing money on exports, which has contributed to domestic rate increases.

Thus, on a full cost basis, American utilities are being subsidized by Manitoba Hydro and its ratepayers. Why does this NDP government so disrespect Manitoba ratepayers? The cr iticism is against this minister and his government, not the PUB. Mr. Chomiak : One of the –the member spent –we spent five hours in committee and the member was explained that, in fact –[interjection] Mr. Speaker, I wish the member would allow me to give my reply instead of yelling like a little child. Manitoba Hydro sells power on the spot market. That power is one hundred per cent profit.

It would be spilled by the dams if it wasn't sold on the spot market. That's No. 1 what the members get wrong. Number two, these long- term contracts have made billions of dollars for Manitoba, have paid for the construction, just like when you buy a mortgage. Number three, we have $7 million in firm contracts, $29 m illion in rollover –$29 billion in rollover contracts that are coming forward to United States that will help build hydro. Our rates are the lowest– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. Tax Increase Impact on Building Permits Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, it's clear that that minister doesn't listen to Manitobans or the PUB. Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada released new numbers this morning showing that Manitoba has the second worst building permit numbers in Canada for the month of April. Will the Minister of Finance (Mr. Struthers) admit that his taxation policy is responsible for the drop in building permits? Hon. Peter Bjornson (Minister of Entrepreneur - ship, Training and Trade ): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Conference Board of Canada on June 4th reports that Winnipeg has the positive expectation for growth in housing starts in both the short and the long term. We have the second highest annual growth in residential building permits next to BC. * (14:10) We have–and I spoke to it yesterday, Mr. Speaker–there's a lot of people that are very positive

1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 about future investments in the province. Members opposite should perhaps be a little bit more positive about this province. We have –[interjection] Welcome to another episod e of adults behaving poorly. Well, I think the economy has fared very well, and we've had a lot of third- party validators which I'll speak to in my next answer, Mr. Speaker. Impact on Economy Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, we are a have province with a have-not government. Mr.

Speaker, in the same report from Stats Canada, year -to-year permit activity was down a whopping 25 per cent year to year. It's clear that the decline is an indication that the minister's tax policy is not only hurting Manitobans' econom y, but it's driving businesses to other provinces. Mr. Speaker, will the minister admit that his policies are having a negative effect on the Manitoba economy? Mr. Bjornson : Well, as I said yesterday –and it's certainly worth repeating, because perhaps the member opposite didn't hear what the headlines are saying about banks like what they see in the Manitoba economy.

The province's exports looking better than forecast, another good news story for Manitoba reported in the Free Press, and that's from Peter H all, the EDC's vice -president and chief economist, Mr. Speaker. Maybe they should broaden their horizons in terms of what they read. Also, new jobs –you talk about new jobs, Mr. Speaker: 1,208 new direct jobs created through our partnership with Yes! Winni peg, Yes! Winnipeg in partnership with the Province of Manitoba and the private sector. It is very positive about the economy here in Manitoba, very positive about the growth potential in this economy.

And we know that our budget is going to continue to grow this economy. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Emerson, with a final supplementary. Referendum Request Mr. Graydon: Well, Mr. Speaker, the businesses are not expanding in the province and not investing in Manitoba. Our employment numbers are down 11,000 last month, and businesses are expanding in other provinces for the friendly tax policy. The only place where Manitoba is friendly is on the licence plates; it's not with this government. Mr.

Speaker, when will the minister have the courage to call a referendum on the PST and hear what Manitobans really think? Mr. Bjornson: Well, where do I start, Mr. Speaker?

Goldman made the decision to establish a Canadian head office here in Winnipeg; Canada Goose is expanding its plant in t he textile industry and they have 160 employees–they hope to hit 200 within the next year; Traffilog, Israeli company opening a North American office here; Vesta Home Delivery, a Dallas-based firm that's here because of the IKEA; Hampton Hotels; the ALT Ho tel; the world and media group; Lode King Industries has made a new investment; Standard Aero and General Electric's winter-weather testing facility; the Boeing expansion.

I've only got 45 seconds to talk about all the good news that's happening here, Mr. Speaker, and I look forward to future questions to that end. Manitoba Municipalities District Meetings Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): The June district meetings for Manitoba municipalities are coming up next week. Mr. Speaker, w ill the Minister of Loca l Government be taking his no-exemptions-none-nada- squat-nothing-insolent-children message to those meetings with the municipalities? And if he does, what kind of reception does he –the minister expect to receive from the municipality as he continues his bullying tactics? Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister of Local Government): I appreciate the question. And yesterday they talked about how our government does not consult the municipalities; today they're saying now we're going and consulting with municipalities. So it just shows you the position of the opposition. You know, they're not with municipalities whatsoever. They have no idea, not a clue, as to what's going on in rural Manitoba. And my critic stands up, and he's very supportive of one councillor represe nting 35 people in municipalities in rural Manitoba. You know, Mr.

Speaker, if that's going to be his position, they'll be over there for a long, long, long, long time.

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1993 Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad the minister finds this funny because the municipa lities certainly don't find this at all funny. Mike Moore–Mike Mason, a cottage owner from Victoria Beach, found the minister's statement about insolent children –and I'll quote from that –he found that insolent -children remark to be repugnant, shameful and offensive. As a hard -working, taxpaying Manitoban, I deserve more respect. An elected–as an elected official, he should be ashamed of himself. Mr.

Speaker, will the minister, when he goes to these June district meetings, will he continue to bully these municipalities, or will he, in fact, actually sit down and start to listen to them? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, every year we've been in government, since 1999, we've listened to AMM. We've listened to their conventions. They for years and years have asked th at we invest in hospitals, personal care homes, schools, roads, bridges. Mr. Speaker, unprecedented amount of money that we've invested in rural Manitoba and municipalities is clear. We're on the same side as municipalities. We've listened.

The Premier ( Mr. Selinger) have listened. Every minister on this side and every MLA have listened to municipalities, listened to their resolutions at their conventions asking us to invest in Manitoba. We've done so. We're proud in the fact that we've worked with– closely with municipalities, listened to them, invested in their municipalities, invested in Manitoba families. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Midland, with a final supplementary. Mr. Pedersen: Mr.

Speaker, I guess that means that when the minister goes to the June district meetings, he will be repeating his no -exemptions-none-nada- squat-nothing-insolent-children message to those municipalities. Perhaps he can also explain how this is not bullying to the municipalities. So when he goes to these June district meetings, will he take this as an opportunity to apologize for the municipalities for destroying a working relationship that was built on trust and respect? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, again, wel l, I thank the member for the question.

And, you know, the consultation that we've done with municipalities, worked closely with AMM –in the legislation, if the members would care to actually look at it –read it, there is a clause in there that does give the government, Executive Council, the ability to be flexible with regard to amalgamations. And if people were offended by the comment, I apologize for that, because no disrespect was meant to those municipalities. They work hard every day, extremely hard. You know, the compensation they receive is not very much. They put out a lot of time every day to represent their communities. So, Mr.

Speaker, you know, if that –if communities took it that way, you know, I would apologize to those members because, truly, they work really hard every day on behalf of Manitobans. But, indeed, we want to work. We want to work– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Minister's time has expired. Assiniboia Downs Possible Job Losses Mr. Cliff Cullen ( Spruce Woods ): Well, Mr. Speaker, an d this was really about treating Manitobans with respect. That's really what it's all about. Mr. Speaker, this NDP government keeps talking about challenging economic times.

As a result, one would think the NDP would be concerned about jobs and job secur ity. But the NDP don't seem too concerned about the 500 jobs and the 500 families that depend on Assiniboia Downs. Assiniboia Downs is located in the riding of Assiniboia. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau): Does he hav e respect for the 500 jobs at Assiniboia Downs? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act ): Mr.

Speaker, I think it's important to put on the record for the member opposite again, because we made it very clear, yes, there's been a reallocation in terms of funding that's been going to horse racing. But we continue to support horse racing through the parimutuel levy, as outlined by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Struthers), and we continue to have 140 VLTs at a gaming centre that will be there. The difference, Mr. Speaker, is that the Assiniboine downs now will have the same percentage that every other commercial site holder has in the province. So we continue to be committed

1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 to that. In addition, we 've made a clear commitment to harness racing. We're committed, but, yes, we have reallocated some of the money that was going to prizes, Mr. Speaker, purses for horses. We're reallocating it to hospitals. Future Operations Mr. Cullen : Well, Mr. Speaker , Assiniboia Downs has been an icon in Manitoba for many years. Many Manitobans are concerned that the ND –inability of the NDP to manage this file could lead to the demise of racing in Manitoba. We are curious what discussions have been held regarding oper ations at Assiniboia Downs. Mr.

Speaker, was the member for Assiniboia involved in negotiations with any third parties regarding takeover of operations at Assiniboia Downs? * (14:20) Mr. Ashton : Mr. Speaker, I think it's important to note the history of horse racing in this province, including the fact that this government has provided more than $75 million to maintaining the horse racing industry in this province. And, yes, Mr. Speaker, there were choices made in the budget, but we have not –only not c ut off the funding to the horse racing industry.

I know our Minister of Finance and everyone on this side of the House has encouraged Assiniboine downs to work with potential future partners. And whether it be the Red River Ex, whether it be Peguis First N ation, again, the way to make sure that we have continuing horse racing in the province is providing continuing support, which we're doing, and also engaging with partners. So the member is wrong, Mr. Speaker. We continue to support horse racing in the province, good jobs and the economic spinoffs. Manitoba Jockey Club Minister's Discussions Mr.

Cliff Cullen (Spruce Woods): And this is about dealing respectfully with Manitobans. The NDP have not dealt respectfully with flood victims. The NDP have not dealt respectfully with taxpayers. The NDP have not dealt respectfully with the horse racing industry. I ask the member for A ssiniboia (Mr. Rondeau): When did the member begin discussions with third parties in a bid to get rid of the Manitoba Jockey Club? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act ): Let's understand, Mr.

Speaker, that there is a clear difference of approach here between this side and members opposite. They–members opposite clearly, when it comes to Assiniboine downs, want a two- tiered approach to VLT commissions: one for Assiniboine downs and one for every other commercial site holder province. We are, Mr. Speaker, going to a single -tiered approach. And let's also understand, Mr. Speaker, that we are going to be transferring money into health care, and again, we support a single -tiered approach; the y support a two-tiered approach to health care. That's the difference, Mr. Speaker.

We support a single-tiered approach for horse racing and for health care. Social-Housing Residents High School Graduation Rates Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Spe aker, helping those on low incomes is not a strength of this government. Today, Graham Lane, speaking about Manitoba Hydro, emphasized that the NDP government's approach is putting at greatest risk those on low incomes.

Also today, a report by the Mani toba Centre for Health Policy shows that this government does least well when addressing the issues of those on low incomes, with high school graduation rates being extraordinarily low, 19 per cent in Point Douglas and less than 50 per cent for all Manitoba for those in social housing. I ask the Minister of Education (Ms. Allan): What specific measures will she initiate this week to improve the extraordinarily low high school graduation rates for the children– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, high school graduation has increased in Manitoba from 73 to over 83 per cent. That's a very significant improvement from the days when the members opposite used to boot people out of school when they didn't like their behaviour.

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1995 We find ways to engage young people in continuing high school. This is the government that changed the requirement for high school graduation to–for staying in school from 16 to 18. We have very targeted special incentives to go to various high schools around Manitoba that encourage programs that will retain more people in high school and help them graduate. And now our high schools are building shops that will allow young people to get into the trades while they' re in high school and be able to get a good paying job as they graduate, Mr. Speaker.

Speech and Language Therapists Training Programs Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, high school graduations are extraordinarily low for those in social housing. One of the reasons for low high school graduation rates is that children with speech and language disorders remain undetected and untreated. One in six Manitoba children have a communications disorder, yet this government has only one speech-language pathologist for every four to six schools. In North Dakota, for example, they have at least one for every school.

Central to solving the communications problems of children with low graduation rates is the fact that there needs to be a university-based training program for communications disorders in this province. I ask the Premier: When will he initiate such a university training program in– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): I do thank the member for the question.

He has correctly pointed out that there are things that we can do to expand training for health- care professionals as well as education professionals in Manitoba, which is why I was very pleased to recently be at the school of nursing, where we have expanded the number of academic positions for training nurses in Manitoba, where we've initiated nurse practitioner training in Manitoba, where we've brought in more registered nursing training in Manitoba, including in French and English, Mr. Speaker.

The spe cific skill set that the member has identified as being required in Manitoba needs to be linked to the fact that we're the only political party in this House that committed $24 million in the last election to training more health -care professionals in the province of Manitoba. Social-Housing Residents Health Concerns Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): But this government has not got the job done. There's extraordinarily long wait times for those with communication disorders needs. Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy study of social housing shows that 50 per cent of Manitobans living in social housing are under 20 years of age and that social housing is associated with very crowded living conditions, poor air quality from increased second -hand smoke, and social housing residents have much higher rates of 'respiry' disorders, including tuberculosis, than those who live elsewhere. I ask the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald): What is her immediate plan to improve the health environment for those who live in social housing? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Premier): There's been an approach to social housing that has never occurred in Manitoba before. When we rebuilt social housing, we actually trained people that live in the area with the skills to rebuild the housing, and it has made a tremendous difference in places like Gilbert Park and places like Lord Selkirk Park. We've moved early childhood development programs right into the housing projects themselves. We've built daycare centres in the housing projec ts themselves. We have congregate meal programs in the housing centres themselves.

And our health clinics–Mount Carmel Clinic, NorWest health clinic, QuickCare clinics and nurse practitioners –are all available to work directly with the people in the residential areas where they live, including the social-housing projects. And I was very pleased last summer to be up at Gilbert Park where we had an employment program where the young people were fixing up the neighbourhood, cleaning up the neighbourhood, providing skills in a labour co- op that helped everybody make that a better community. That's the kind of things we're doing in social-housing projects.

Southwest Winnipeg Roadwork Investment Mr. Dave Gaudreau (St. Norbert): As a parent, I – on–I know on our side of the House that it's all about families. I understand that Budget 2013 will allow

1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 investments in schools, daycares, health- care centres in every region of the province. I also stand– understand that hard infrastructure like roads are going to receive investments, and not just provincial roads, municipal roads as well. I was at an announcement this morning with the Premier and the member for Fort Garry -Riverview (Mr. Allum) and the Minister for Housing and the Minister for Local Government, and it's al l about continuing to build and continuing to move Manitoba forward.

Can the Minister of Local Government inform the House of the examples of how the work that will be happening in southwest Winnipeg will keep people employed and make it easier for people to get around in Winnipeg? Thank you. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Local Government): I want to thank the member from St. Norbert for the question. And Budget 2013 doubles the investment in residential streets for Winnipeg and invests $19 million over 47 residential regional streets. And so today, as was mentioned, the Premier announced, attended by the MLA for Fort Garry-Riverview, St.

Norbert and also for Fort Richmond–and this $4.7- million investment in 13 projects in southwest Winnipeg is truly an important investment for those families, safer roads and having people either commute to work, go and shop, bring their kids to soccer. Mr. Speaker, this is just one of the investments that we're moving ahead on in Winnipeg. We're proud to work with the City of Winnipeg, and these MLAs should be very proud of the hard work they've done in southwest Winnipeg to ensure projects like this come to fruition. Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Official Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand that our rules allow for government members to ask questions of themselves. That might seem strange that they don't have those discussions internally, but we still do have rules within this House, Mr. Speaker, and I refer to Beauchesne's

section 409(5). It says that matters brought before a question period should be of some urgency, it should be of present value and seek information– [interjection] I understand that members don't appreciate rules. They like to break the law and rules, but we do have rules that govern us in the House. And it says, a question should be matters that aren't necessarily brought forward directly to the minister. The individual who asked the question already said that he was at an event, he was at an announcement, he had discussions with the minister.

So it's clearly out of order for him to bring that question here to question period, Mr. Speaker. * (14:30) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): Well, Mr. Speaker, if the member for Steinbach doesn't think the state of our roads is an urgent issue, I'm not sure where he's driving his car. But clearly, you know, the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Gaudreau) has every right to put a question in this House, as does every member of this House.

I know the members opposite may not be quite ready to move into Supply this afternoon, haven't maybe done their homework on Estimates, so he's looking for a way to delay that. That's what this point of order is. It has nothing to do with any of the rules of deciding, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. On the point of order raised by the Official Opposition House Leader, I'd like to thank all honourable members for their advice on this matter.

And I've been perusing through, with the able assistance of our Clerk, the parliamentary rules and forms that we have that m embers, I'm sure, are familiar with as well. And if you look at 409(5), as the honourable member–Official Opposition House Leader referenced, that there ought to be some urgency, I understand what he's indicating here, but if you also look at the House of Commons, O'Brien and Bosc, Procedure and Practice, page 510, the Speaker ensures adherence to the dictates of order and decorum and parliamentary language.

The Speaker, though, however, is not responsible for the quality or content of replies to questions or the questions posed.

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1997 So, therefore, I must respectfully rule that the Official Opposition House Leader does not have a point of order. Mr. Goertzen: And with respect, Mr. Speaker, I challenge the ruling. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair having been challenged, the question before the House is: Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please signify by saying aye. Some Honourable Members: Aye. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please signify by saying nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In the opinion of the Chair, the Ayes have it. Recorded Vote Mr. Goertzen: Could you summon the members so that all the memb ers could attend for the vote, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members. Order. Order, please. The one-hour allocation for the ringing of the division bells has expired, and I'm instructing that they be turned off. We'll now proceed to the vote on the question. The question before the House is: Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained?

Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Allan, Allum, Altemeyer, Ashton, Bjornson, Blady, Braun, Caldwell, Chief, Chomiak, Crothers, Dewar, Gaudreau, Howard, Irvin-Ross, Jha, Kostyshyn , Lemieux, Mackintosh, Maloway, Marcelino (Logan), Marcelino (Tyndall Park), Melnick, Nevakshonoff, Oswald, Rondeau, Saran, Selby, Selinger, Struthers, Swan, Wiebe, Wight. Nays Briese, Cullen, Driedger, Eichler, Ewasko, Friesen, Gerrard, Goertzen, Graydon, Helwer, Maguire, Mitchelson, Pallister, Pedersen , Rowat, Schuler, Smook, Stefanson, Wishart. Clerk (Ms. Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 33, Nays 19. Mr.

Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is accordingly sustained. * * * Mr. Speaker: Now, return to question period. Next question. Flooding Aboriginal Housing Concerns Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) stated, and I quote, that two years is totally unacceptable for over 2,000 people that are still out of their homes. End quote. We on this side of the House have well been asking time and time again for action by this government. Mr.

Speake r, I ask the ministry –Minister for Emergency Measures: Why has he not listened to the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the member opposite may want to reflect on the fact that we've stated very clearly that when it came to the evacuees, there was a disproportionate number of evacuees who were First Nations and reflects a disproportionate impact the flooding on First Nations communities. That has histori c roots in the establishment of reserves, Mr.

Speaker, but more specifically it points to the fact that in many cases, many of those communities do not have the mitigation that's required to protect them, do not have housing that is not only protected agai nst flooding but is in decent condition. And part of the problem over the last couple of years has been the fact that there simply has not been homes for people to go back to. And I want to commend our minister for –of Aboriginal Affairs for working with the federal government. We've had a significant breakthrough just the last number of weeks, Mr. Speaker.

I also met with the AANDC minister along with our minister on Monday, and they are committed to getting those– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired.

1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, enough is enough. Two years, 2,000 people homeless. This minister of EMO is responsible for assuring families of returning to the homes in a timely manner. Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister of EMO again: Do you think two years is unacceptable like we on this side of the House and the Minister responsible for Northern Affairs? Mr. Ashton : Mr. Speaker, what is unacceptable is the situation that First Nations communities in this province is –province have found t hemselves in for decades. And I want to point out when it came to Lake St.

Martin, it was this government that put in place an emergency outlet that brought down the level of that lake by 3 feet and returned it to normal. And it's also this government that is committed to making that outlet permanent. So we are not only taking action in terms of the immediate situation, working with the federal government to get them back home, we're making sure, Mr. Speaker, with the investments in this budget that we're going to have mitigation and flood protection for those communities in the future. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, studying is not taking action. Mr.

Speaker, obviously, the Minister responsible for Emergency Measures cannot get it right. Two years, 2,000 people still homeless is totally unacceptable. We get it. The NDP's own Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs gets it. I ask the First Minister, the member from St. Boniface: Does he agree with his minister, two years is 'unmisteple'? Will this Firs t Minister show some leadership and get these people back to their homes today, Mr. Speaker? * (15:40) Hon.

Greg Selinger (Premier): W e do think that people have been out of their homes too long, which is why we made the $250- million commitment to build a new outlet out of Lake St. Martin and to make the emergency channel permanent. And the difference between this side of the House and that side of the House is they talk as if they care about it, but they're not willing to commit the resources to do it. We commit the resources and we follow through. They talk and do nothing. We get the job done. They do nothing, Mr. Speaker. Emergency Services (Vita Hospital) Closure Mr.

Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) : On October 17th, 2012, the emergency room at the Vita hospital closed. At that time, the Minister of Health committed to reopening the emergency room and recruiting another doctor to the area. Mr. Speaker, almost nine months have passed since the minister made her promise and the emergency room remains closed. Can the Minister of Health tell this House and the people of Vita: When will the emergency room at the Vita hospital reopen? Hon.

T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health): As I've said to the member in the past, the regional health authority is working hard to recruit and retain doctors. Certainly, there has been an augmentation in paramedic availability. The STARS helicopter is available. The regional health authority, of course, is working also with the faculty of medicine in establishing opportunities for doctors to go and train there. It's why we're investing, Mr. Speaker, in more residencies for rural Manitoba. We know that on a journey to recruit more doctors you have to expand medical training.

You shouldn't actually cut medical school spaces like the Conservatives do. Government Timeline Mr. Smook : The Minister of Health isn't doing enough. The residents of Vita deserve the same access to health care as all Manitobans, and the Minister of Health has made no effort to ensure that. The Carillon news, in a recent editorial, called on the RHA and the Minister of Health to meet the demands of the region and reopen the Vita emergency room. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health give us a timeline as to when the emergency room will reopen, or is she just wanting to keep it closed permanently? Ms.

Oswald: Again, I would reiterate for the member that the regional health authority is working very hard with the members of the Vita community to recruit and to retain a doctor and, certainly, a number of doctors to reopen the emergency room. What I can say to the member for the record is the only party in this Legislature that permanently closed emergency rooms were the Conservatives

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1999 who permanently closed the Misericordia ER and, indeed, closed all of the Wi nnipeg community hospitals overnight with a view to save money, Mr. Speaker. They haven't changed a bit. Their view now is the way to manage health care is private, for-profit health care as advocated for by their leader on CJOB on May the 28th of this year. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Doors Open Winnipeg Mr. James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Mr.

Speaker, as a Canadian historian and as a former archivist with the City of Winnipeg, I stand today to congratulate Heritage Winnipeg Corporation on the success of the 10th anniversary of Doors Open Winnipeg. First celebrated in France in 1984, Doors Open days is now a global phenomenon. At no cost, this event promotes heritage and architecture to a wide audience by providing access to unique buildings usually restricted to the public. Mr.

Speaker, Doors Open Winnipeg was held May 25th and 26th with more than 80 buil dings and sites featured, each one emphasizing the extraordinary beauty and rich history found in this city. I know Heritage Winnipeg was very pleased with the success of this year's events. Since 2004, Doors Open Winnipeg boasts more than a quarter of a million visits. Each year there are more visitors, volunteers, participating venues and walking tours. I would like to make special mention of the two venues located in Fort Garry -Riverview, Manitoba Electrical Museum & Education Centre and first-time p articipant St.

John's -Ravenscourt. Both venues are major tourist draws. The museum boasts a replica of Streetcar 356 and interactive children's displays. And SJR, whose royal patron is Her Majesty the Queen, delivers an enriched university preparatory curriculum in a history-rich setting. Also, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's Legislative Building is a regular participant in Doors Open. Reputed to be one of the finest public buildings in North America, the Manitoba Legislative Building is one of the province's priceless heritage buildings.

As the culture capital of Canada, I am proud that we, together, celebrate all that Winnipeg has to offer. Without Doors Open, Mr. Speaker, many of the stunning architectural gems found in our amazing provincial capital would lik ely go unnoticed and underappreciated. Thank you to Heritage Winnipeg for supporting deeper interest in and understanding our city's past. By bringing the community together you strengthen our collective identity and enrich our lives. Thank you. Miller Family–Farm Family of the Year Mrs.

Leanne Rowat (Riding Mountain): It gives me great pleasure to stand in the Legislature today to recognize the Miller family from Binscarth, the owner-operators of the Silver Creek Bison Ranch. They have been named the 2013 Farm Family of the Year by the Red River Exhibition Association. Lorne and Louise, their children Nolan and Nicole Miller, Jason and Bev Miller, as well as grandchildren Payton, Jayla, Adley Jay Miller, have joined 47 other families who have been hono ured with this award since 1966.

Lorne and Louise started the ranch in 1988 and have recently turned the reins over to Nolan, who is responsible for the bison, and Jason, who is responsible for their crops. The Millers have a herd of more than 1,300 bison. In addition, they grow an assortment of crops on their 8,800- acre farm and dedicate 50 acres of the animal–raising cattle. Nominated by the Manitoba Bison Association, the Millers are leaders in preserving the bison's natural food qualities and do not use antibiotics or growth hormones in their feed.

The Millers are actively involved on a variety of bison association boards at the provincial, national and international levels. Mr. Speaker, the Miller family will be officially acknowledged at a recepti on held in their honour on June 17th, as part of the celebrations surrounding the 2013 river–Red River Ex. I ask all members to join me in congratulating the Millers on being named the 2013 Farm Family of the Year by the Red River Exhibition Association. Thank you. Dr. Henry Morgentaler Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Canada is a wonderful country with democracy still governing the rule.

Within democratic principles, it is possible in Canada to effect change for better laws and procedures. Mr. Speake r, those words were spoken in 2005 by Dr. Henry Morgentale r. A principled and compassionate defender of a woman's right to choose, Dr. Morgentaler passed away from a heart

2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 attack last Wednesday. As a Holocaust survivor who came to Canada following the Seco nd World War, Dr. Morgentaler worked throughout his life to speak truth to power. He was an advocate of the right to a safe abortion and operated several clinics throughout his life for women to obtain safe procedures. Dr. Morgentaler was also one of the key players in the Supreme Court of Canada's controversial 1988 ruling that declared the law prohibiting abortion unconstitutional.

Under the old system, legal abortions could only be performed after a patient had successfully petitioned a committee of three doctors. The court ruled that forcing women to endure such delays was demeaning, potentially life-threatening and in violation of the Charter guarantee of life, liberty and the security of person. For almost half a century, Dr. Morgentaler was both despised and revered, lauded and jailed. His Toronto clinic was bombed and he received both an honorary degree and the Order of Canada.

His efforts forever altered the Canadian jurisprudence, the landscape of women's rights and the lives of thousands of women. Complications from illegal or unsafe abortions were once the most common reason for women to be hospitalized in Canada, and today, thanks to the progress we've made, those complications that risk w omen's lives are incredibly rare. Mr. Speaker, equality includes having control over one's own body. For his efforts to ensure that women everywhere have a choice over what happens to their own bodies, Dr. Morgentaler is a hero to many.

This complex person, a doctor, a survivor and a choice advocate, will be remembered across the country for his compassion and for his dedication to effecting change in Canada. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Charlene and Victor Dziedzic Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): It gives m e great pleasure today to address the Assembly on a matter of great importance to Manitobans and the constituents that I am so privileged to represent –that being charity.

More specifically, I'd like to highlight the hard work and success of Charlene and Vi ctor Dziedzic and the volunteers in their commitment to this year's 14th annual charity Ride for Wishes in support of Children's Wish Foundation. This year's event took place on May the 11th, once again graciously hosted by the Dziedzics on their beautiful VL Ranch in Inwood. The day began with a pancake breakfast from 8 to 11, followed by a spectacular ride in chuckwagons at noon, with the option of grabbing a lunch in Narcisse.

The chuckwagon ride was followed by many activities in the kids tent, along with barbecued pork, turkey dinner at 6. Following this, the wish auction took place, helping raise more money in the line of pledge forms. To conclude the evening's festivities, the BC– BBC band put on a great family -friendly show, where all who took

part in the event thoroughly enjoyed. * (15:50) Mr. Speaker, all the money raised will be donated to the Children's Wish Foundation, Manitoba chapter, and has been for the past 14 years. To date, they have raised over half a million dollars and now working tow ards the million -dollar mark. I had the pleasure of attending the event, and I must say, the event seems to get better and better each and every year. As such, I would ask all honourable members to join me in showing their appreciation for the Dziedzics as gracious volunteers in supporting the Children's Wish Foundation of Manitoba in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. PST Increase–Referendum Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, for the last three weeks, I've used my member's statement to highlight the poor fiscal management of this NDP government and their imposition of an increase in the PST from 7 per cent to 8 per cent on July 1 of this year. Today, I want to speak specifically to the need for a referendum. Manitoba has legislation which requires referenda only in very rare instances, including, as examples, increasing the provincial sales tax or privatizing Manitoba Hydro or Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

The issue I speak to is this: Manitoba stands in the decision on this refer endum at a fork in the road. We, as Manitobans, can choose to accept that referendums are a legitimate and important part of our democratic process when certain important and critical decisions are made, or we can walk away from having referendums. A referendum on the PST is not one we should walk away from. The NDP are breaking a promise made to Manitobans during the last campaign to not raise the

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2001 provincial sales tax. The NDP have not demonstrated good fiscal management, nor that they actually need to raise the PST. The NDP claim they will spend all the new money raised by the PST on new additional infrastructure spending, but their own budget documents don't show this. A referendum is clearly needed in this instance where there are so many questions about the government's actions. A referendum is also needed to reinforce the importance of having referendums on critical measures, like a decision to privatize Manitoba Hydro.

The NDP can't argue for one type of referendum but not for the other. If the NDP don't have a referendum on the PST, it will validate those who want to privatize Manitoba Hydro without a referendum, and it will put at risk the privatization of Manitoba Hydro for those like me who believe Manitoba Hydro should not be privatized. In the long journey toward democracy, and in the interests of keeping faith with those who fought in World War I and II and in other wars to save democracy, we should embrace the use of a referendum to solicit the will of Manitobans.

I argued this point at length in my speech on Bill 20, June the 4th, and will continue as long as I'm– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has considerably passed. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable member to c onclude–quickly conclude his member's statement? [Agreed] The honourable member for River Heights, to quickly conclude. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to say I argued this point at length in my speech on Bill 20 on June the 4th, and will continue, as long as I'm an MLA and beyond, to fight for democracy in Manitoba. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Now, we'll move on to– GRIEVANCES Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for La Verendrye, on a grievance. Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) : Yes, Mr. Speaker, I rise on the–on a grievance today. I would like today to grieve about this government's lack of credibility. Many of the things that you may hear in the next 10 minutes mirror a lot of the things that I've said in the last few weeks. But it's a very important subject when a government has no credibility. In the election campaign of 2011, we saw every single member opposite going door to door in their constituencies and promise not to raise taxes.

The Premier (Mr. Selinger) stated, and I quote: Our plan is a five -year plan to ensure that we have future prosperity without any tax increases, and we'll deliver on that. We're ahead of

schedule right now. Mr. Speaker, how could that –the Premier make such a huge mistake, and to be that far away from reality? We're not talking about a few dollars on a budget. Between taxes and fee increases in the budget of 2012, now the sales tax increase and other increases in the budget of 2013, this NDP government will take close to a billion dollars out of the pockets of Manitoba taxpayers in these two years. Mr. Speaker, this is not some small mistake or oversight. The people of Manitoba have little faith in someone, who on October of 2011 said, ridiculous ideas that we're going to raise the sales tax.

That's total nonsense. Everybody knows that. Well, in the last two budgets this NDP government wants to give hard- working Manitobans two of the biggest tax increase budgets we've seen in a long time. When he said no tax increases, one can only assume that the Premier knew that he was saying in the election of 2011 was untrue. Did the members opposite know their election promises were untrue? If they truly believed the Premier, that he would not raise taxes, now that he has done that, what are they telling the constituents?

What are their constituency –constituents answering back to them when they meet them on the streets, when they meet in the stores? Do the members opposite feel it's okay to be untruthful to their constituents? Mr. Speaker, t his government keeps introducing consumer protection bills to protect Manitobans from unscrupulous businesses. There presently is legislation called the balanced bud get, debt repayment and taxpayer protection act to protect Manitobans fro m unscrupulous governments. I t seems very hypocritical that the government feels

2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 they have to protect consumers with new legislation, but are willing to gut existing legislation that protects consumers from them. Mr. Speaker, one of the key points in the taxpayer protection act is that the government cannot, and I repeat, cannot put in place any major tax increases without a referendum. The referendum lets taxpayers decide if a tax in crease is necessary. With Bill 20 the NDP will present legislation and allow them to make major tax increases whenever they want.

To make matters worse, the NDP is forging ahead with this PST increase no matter what the people of Manitoba have to say. Mr. Speaker, is this government going to listen to the taxpayers that come to committee to express their views on Bill 20? Apparently, there's close to 200 signed up now. Are they going to be listened to? When the Budget 2013 was introduced there was such an urgency to get the budget passed and increase the PST. First, it was the need for flood protection, but you don't start flood protection in the middle of a flood.

Why are these projects –why were these projects not done last year when the weather conditions were excellent for them? When asked what projects they would do, they couldn't even come up with projects that were ready to go. Next, it was the need for more infrastructure, but the infrastructure budget shows only a small increase, Mr. Speaker. This government has come up with excuse after excuse for raising taxes after they promised no tax increases. This NDP government says they need more tax dollars, but they have to come up with a credible plan on how they will spend it.

They've had 13 years of governing in this province, and how could they –like, the roads, the bridges, how could they have gotten into the shape they are? I mean, if it's such a critical area that needs to have all kinds of dollars put into it, where have they been the last 13 yea rs? It's another shot at this government's Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Hydro belongs to the people of Manitoba. Hydro debt also belongs to the people of Manitoba; therefore, it should be accountable to them. Hydro and what Hydro does should be under the wat ch of the Minister of Innovation, Energy and Mines (Mr. Chomiak).

In the last week we've learned about the non-existent Keeyask community centre where the money has gone and nothing to show for it. The minister says that this money was advanced to First Nations community to use as the communities see fit. Where is this government's accountability? Where did the $6 million go? * (16:00) Mr. Speaker, being an MLA and working in this Chamber is a special honour. People elect their MLAs to represent them an d make decisions to govern this Province . Taxpayers expect the truth from their MLAs. This government has not been truthful with the taxpayers of Manitoba.

They are not following the law. By not calling a referendum on the PST, they've lost their credibility with most of the people of Manitoba. In the private sector, Mr. Speaker, people work to develop credibility. This takes years upon years to develop this. This government thinks nothing of being untruthful one day and hoping the public will forget what they've done before the next election. Mr. Speaker, if the government wants to regain its credibility, it needs to stop lying to the people of Manitoba and start doing things that are for their benefit, not for this NDP's spending habits. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Are there any further grievances? Seeing none– ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you resolve the House into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: We'll now resolve into the Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, will you please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (16:10) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2003 consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As has been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden-Winkler): Pleased to be back in the Estimates process. We had a good exchange the last time we met in Estimates, talking about the amalgamations from 11 RHAs into the current five, and we had a chance to gain information about the total number of executive positions that were reduced and the total remaining.

I wonder at this point, did the minister have ready information she said she would supply about organizational charts for the new RHAs? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Yes, I do have some information requested in the last session by the member –last two times we sat, actually, and I'm prepared to provide that information and put it on the record. I–as discussed at the end of the last session, I would like to make a few clarifications from our earlier discussion about the reduction of RHA executive positions through the merger process.

I have indeed had a chance to review the organizational charts for the 11 former RHAs prior to their merger, which I believe the member opposite had done as well. And certainly what you will see is a wide variation in senior management structures, including the number of senior executive positions, their titles and so on. Some RHA organizational charts went beyond the senior executive positions to, in fact, include other positions that offered advice or reported to the senior management. What you will see in the new organizational charts for the five merged RHAs is a more consistent structure.

Also, I want to take a moment to clarify some of what we discussed the other day concerning what is counted as a senior executive position, as there was a little bit of confusion through the course of our discussion and the two of us looking at different pages at different times. Medical officers of health are public health doctors. We do not consider these to be senior executive positions, but rather a practising public health doctor.

Some RHA organizational charts include the medical officer of health as they often have a reporting relationship with the CEO, which is appropriate when you consider that they're offering advice and direction about potential public health threats. Chief medical officers are also called VP medical in some regions. Most, but not all of the 11 former regions, had a chief medical officer or a VP medical. Like all VP positions, this would be considered part of the senior management team.

Now, as the member knows, our commitment was made to elimin ate 30 to 35 senior executive positions through the merger process, a target that we've in fact actually exceeded. At the time we announced the mergers, Manitoba Health gathered the current senior executive structures for the 11 former RHAs, including the CEOs and the vice-presidents or positions equivalent to vice-presidents; in some smaller regions, they called their vice -presidents executive directors, for example. That audit found a total of 72 senior executive positions across the 11 former RHAs.

Thirty-seven of those executive positions were eliminated through the merger process, more than the 30 to 35, as indicated, and more than half of the total senior executive positions that existed under –existed prior to the mergers. I understand that some of the RHAs have also eliminated other corporate positions at other levels through the merger process, as well, over and above the 37 senior exec positions that have indeed been eliminated. So, for the Prairie Mountain Health, that is, the former Assiniboin e, Brandon and Parkland–as a

summary, I would provide that the former RHAs included Assiniboine, Brandon and Parkland and had a total of 18 senior executive positions among them. The new RHA, Prairie Mountain Health, has seven executive positions, which re sults in a net reduction of 11 senior executive positions. So the former Assiniboine had CEO Penny Gilson; VP Community Health Services Clevett; VP, Programs and Standards, Cockburn; chief human resources officer, communications, Wabert [phonetic] ; VP, Cor porate Services, Takvam; VP, Medical Services, Weiss.

The Brandon had former CEO Schoonbaert; VP, Acute Care Services, Cu mming; VP, Quality Planning and Evaluation, Hunter; VP, Community Services and Long -Term Care, Troop; VP, HR and Support Services, Ma rchand; VP, Financial and Information Services, Wilcox McKay; VP, Medical and Diagnostic, Penner. And Parkland had CEO McKnight; VP, Facilities, Wood; VP, Planning and Development,

2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 Campbell; VP, Corporate Services and CFO, Le; chief human resources officer, Gattinger. The new RHA, Prairie Mountain Health, consists of CEO Gilson; senior advisor, Acute Care, Cockburn; VP, Community and Long- Term Care, Troop; VP, quality, planning and innovation and chief patient safety officer, Campbell; VP, Finance, CFO and COO, Schoonbaert; VP, Corporate Services, Wilcox McKay; VP and chief medical officer, Gauthier.

The Northern Regional Health Authority, NOR-MAN and Burntwood RHAs formerly –the former RHAs included Nor-Man and Burntwood and had a total of 15 senior exec positions before the merger. The new Northern RHA has seven executive positions for a net reduction of 18 senior executive positions. The Burntwood former had six total: CEO King; CFO and COO Thethy; chief human resources officer, Therrien; VP, Aboriginal Health, Beardy; VP, Acute Health Services and chief nursing officer, Ellis; and VP, Medical Services, Azzam.

The NOR -MAN had nine total: CEO Bryant; executive director , Clinical Services, Flin Flon, Mishak Beckman; executive director , Clinical Services, Rook [phonetic]; executive director , Finance and Support Services, L. Rourke; executive director, Community and Long- Term Care, Bilquist; executive director , Human Resources, Reader; executive director of Planning, Research and Development had been a vacant position, in fact; executive director of Communications and Public Relations, Patterson; and chief of medical staff was split by three physicians, Drs. Miller, Noel and MacLeod.

So the new RHA for Northern has seven positions: CEO, Bryant; VP and CNO, Mishak Beckman; VP, Planning, Tetlock; VP, chief human resources officer, Reader; VP, Aboriginal Health, Beardy; VP, Corporate Services and CFO, Thethy; VP and CMO, Azzam. The member asked me to rep ort back on the communications officer in NOR -MAN. I will confirm for the member that in NOR -MAN, which was a smaller region, the executive director of communications and public relations was considered a senior executive position.

There were no VP positions in NOR -MAN, instead, there were a number of executive directors that essentially held the role of a VP position, but a different title. In the–how am I doing for time? Two minutes, okay. The–I may need to overlap into a next answer, but here we go. The Southern RHA, formerly Central and southeast RHAs, had a total of 15 senior executive positions prior to the merger. The new Southern Health RHA has seven executive positions, which is a net reduction of eight senior executive positions.

The former RHA in Central had nine total: CEO, McPhail; VP, Corporate Services, Montanti; VP, Finance, Klassen; VP, Human Resources, Hunter; VP, Medical Services, Fortier; VP planning, Curtis; VP programs in Mid-Central Services, Harrison; VP, programs in North Servi ces, Smith; and VP, programs in South Services, Rothwell. The former South East: CEO, Stinson; VP, Community and Long- Term Care, McKenzie; VP, Acute Care and Planning was vacant at the time of the merger; CFO, Jansen [phonetic]; VP, medical services, Th iessen; manager of human resources, Patton [phonetic].

This was included as this position was equivalent to the VP or chief HR officer in the other regions. The new Southern RHA now holds seven positions: CEO, McPhail; VP, Clinical Standards and chief nur sing officer, Gunness; VP, Planning and innovation quality risk and patient safety, Curtis; VP, Finance and Capital, Klassen; VP, Human Resources, Hunter; VP, Corporate Services, Montanti; VP and chief medical officer, Thiessen. There was from the member an outstanding question about which positions in the old Central RHA org chart were considered senior exec.

The VP of medical services was considered part of senior executive management. The communications and French language services positions were not considered as a part of the senior executive management team. And I have further information, but I think you're going to have to intervene with a question and ask me to continue according to the rules. Mr. Friesen: I thank the minister for the information provided and ask that she continue with her information.

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2005 Ms. Oswald: The Interlake-Eastern Regional Health Authority, of course, is comprised of the former regional health authorities included in the Interlake and the North Eastman regional health authorities, and had a total of 12 senior executive positions prior to the merger. The new Interlake- Eastern health –Regional Health Authority has seven executive positions. This is, of course, a net reduction of five senior executive positions.

The former I nterlake had CEO, Lock; VP, Planning, Fey; VP, Health Services, Charbonn eau; VP, Corporate Services, Ostapyk; VP, Medical Services, Chapnick; Human Resources director, Irwin [phonetic]. And the former North Eastman region had six total: CEO, Van Denakker; VP, Finance and Support Services, Demarko [phonetic] ; VP, Quality and Organizational Development, Frith; VP, Medical Services, Nyhof; VP, Programs and Services, Coleman; director of Human Resources, Magnusson [phonetic].

And the new Interlake -Eastern RH A has seven positions: CEO, Stinson; VP, Acute Health Services and chief nursing officer , Coleman; VP, Health Services, MacKenzie; VP, Primary Care and chief administrative officer, West; and key–is that correct? Let me double check. * (16:20) Let me cla rify: VP, primary care, and chief administrative officer for the west portion is Fey; VP, Finance and CFO, Ostapyk; VP, Corporate Services, and chief administrative officer for the east, Van Denakker; VP and chief medical officer, Nyhof.

For the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, formerly the regions included Winnipeg and Churchill RHAs, and had a total of 12 senior executive positions, prior to the merger. The new Winnipeg-Churchill RHA has seven executive positions for a net reduction of five senior exe cutive positions.

The Winnipeg former RHA had CEO Wilgosh; VP, Clinical Services and CMO, Wright; VP and CNO, Lamont; VP, of population and Aboriginal health, Cook; VP, Long- Term Care and Community Area Services, chief operating officer , Cloutier; VP, chief human resource officer, Verma; vice-president, chief financial officer, Couchon [phonetic]. The former Churchill region had CEO Martens ; CFO Sigurdson; director of clinical services, MacEwan; director of human resources, Sweeney; director of community services and planning, Hughes.

The new Winnipeg RHA then has seven positions: CEO Wilgosh; VP, Clinical Services, chief medical officer, Wright; VP and CNO, Lamont; VP, of population and Aboriginal health, Cook; VP, long- term care and community area services and chief operating officer, Cloutier; the VP and chief human resources officer is currently vacant; VP, chief financial officer, McLennan. The Churchill CEO, as I mentioned last time, has been reclassified as a chief operating officer, as I mentioned earlier, similar to how our hospitals have a chief operating officer.

And, indeed, I would mention that the WRHA has deleted other senior administrative positions to offset the changes in Churchill, as well, including eliminating the following positions: executive director, planning and corporate services, WRHA, VP and CAO, HSC, chief innovation officer, WRHA, and director of human resources for Churchill. I do have some answers to a couple of other questions that the member asked but we can continue on this line of questioning if he'd–whichever he chooses. Mr. Friesen: I suggest we continue on this theme and we can come back to other information provided.

We'll keep an eye on the clock and maybe see if that can be provided before the end of the day. So I know that we've been following the numbers and, of course, as the minister says, in the former RHAs we had a total of 72 executive positions and now we retain 35, for a net reduction of 37 positions. So I guess the next obvious question is: Of the 37 reduced executive positions within the former 11 RHAs, how many of those individuals who held those positions have been reintegrated in some way into the RHAs or the Department of Health? Ms.

Oswald: I can say to the member that there were a few s cenarios that were a result of the mergers. There were individuals that did indeed leave the regions altogether. There were individuals that were placed into positions in the newly formed regions.

2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 Those positions tended, I believe, almost exclusively, to be more junior positions, you know, save for those that were appointed CEO of the new regions. I –there were no –I wasn't sure if I'm recalling exactly what the member asked. I can tell the member that there weren't any individuals that came to work in the Department of Health.

But, in terms of a list of individuals that have found themselves a new job in the newly established regions, I could have my department do some work and come back and let him know who of those 37 came back and got a new position in the existing regions now. So I'd have to go back and have my department –or tabulate a list for us. Mr. Friesen: I would assume that the minister would have that information in front of her and would have it accessible to her. This is a big issue. We have 37 positions that were reduced.

I think it's a reasonable question to ask: How many of these individuals, how many of those 37 retained positions? The minister has said that many of them were placed in new positions in the new RHAs. I would like to know, of that complement of 37 executive reduced positions, how many of those individuals have retained positions in the new RHAs? The minister referred to the fact that some of these were given more junior roles.

I would like to know if the remuneration and t he pension and the benefits that flow to these individuals stayed the same, if it stayed static, even though they might have been assigned a different role, whether it was reduced or whether it was increased. Ms. Oswald: Yes, I'm not suggesting to the mem ber that his question is unreasonable. Certainly, we will do a tally of those individuals that left the region altogether and have found employment elsewhere, which is the case for some individuals. And there are others that may have moved from a CEO posit ion and, you know, are now serving in a different position.

I think the member is asking for additional information as opposed to his first question concerning remuneration as well. This is other information that he wants and, again, I will endeavour to provide the member with that information the next time that we meet to let him know who, for example, was formerly a CEO that might be functioning in the role of a CFO right now, who was formerly a VP of something that is gone entirely. Yet, certainly, I c an provide the member with that information in a nice, tight list. I just don't have it appearing on a list for me at my fingertips right at this time. Mr.

Friesen: I tha nk the minister for committing to do that. I think we –of course, all of these questions proceed from the minister's statement made in the Legislature a few weeks ago that she was happy to report that, although the target was to achieve $10 million of savings over three years of operation– I think that's correct–that, indeed, they had surpassed that mark and they had realized $11 million of savings in the first year of operation –or in the first year of this merger. So that brings up important questions, the most obvious whether we're talking about gross or net.

The minister can talk about t he savings she's realized, but I think the –of course, the real calculation is whether it's –whether she has incurred new expenses along the way of finding new positions for these people. So I appreciate the fact that she will provide the information. I think that because we've started with an examination of how the former regions moved into the new ones –we've talked about the total executive positions and then the net reductions.

I think it would probably be a good question as well to ask–and I'm hoping the minister will have this information with her –to provide a comparison between the total remuneration package for senior executive for the former regions as opposed now to the current regions. So what we'd like to see is in the total executive of those reg ions, could we compare? Would the minister have the information to compare the total amount, that package of salaries and benefits from the former regions to this one, and could she supply that information? * (16:30) Ms.

Oswald: Yes, so, a couple of issues to discuss in the matter that he–the member has raised. Certainly, we made a very clear commitment to Manitobans that we would endeavour to find savings at the corporate level to the tune of $10 million and we would set ourselves a target at –get–set our selves a target of three years to achieve this. At the same that we made that commitment, we said that we would reduce the corporate and executive positions by some 30 to 35. And, indeed, what we have found through the merger process, through the elimination of actually over a hundred board and executive

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2007 positions, through the work that's been done to bring the regions together, we have seen a net savings of $11 million. What I can tell the member is, as has been the case for many years, the compensation for these individuals is something that is reported publicly and it's reported annually.

I can tell the member that I believe with the exception of Winnipeg, the remaining four regional health authorities' new CEO positions did see an increase in compensation for those positions, as would be appropriate, because they were taking over a much larger geographic space, a much larger entity than they had been looking at pri or to that. I don't have the exact numbers of their current remuneration and benefits package at my fingertips, but I will endeavour to get that information for the member but would reiterate to him that all of that information is publicly available.

There were, indeed, individuals that are no longer in the employ of the regional health authority and, as appropriate, according to contracts, you know, duly processed contracts, would be entitled to receive a severance. That, I believe, is also publicly reportable–would be part of the public disclosure document that comes forward. So we do know that on the entire journey of regional health authorities in Manitoba, we have seen very significant merging of resources coming from the original 13 regional health authorities as created under the Conservatives in the late '90s, including two in Winnipeg.

We have seen substantial work having been done to reduce positions in Winnipeg alone, when it was merged into one, and we've seen significant reductions in corporat e positions from now moving from the 11 regional health authorities down to five.

Again, I can commit to the member to get some exact information about contracts and compensation packages for the current, existing five regional health authority executives and the others, but I certainly can tell the member that the number for compensation for these individuals is –as five regions, is significantly less than we were paying for the 11 regions and their CEOs and senior administration.

But we can say to the mem ber that we'll get some information for him, as requested, concerning – if I'm recalling appropriately, concerning the 37 positions that have been reduced, those individuals that were formally employed by the regions and have now found themselves employment in the new five regions, and some information concerning compensation for those individuals. I believe he requested formerly and currently. I will ask my department to do some work on that to provide a package for the member as requested. Mr.

Friesen: And to clarify, yes, I would be looking for information both about the total envelope for the salaries and benefits of the senior executives for the former regions and this one, but as –in addition to that, I'm seeking information about the number of senior executives who remained in the system because they were reassigned or reclassified and in some way, shape or form reintegrated in the system. I would like to know of that complement how many would have been retained at their current rate–or their former ra te of pay and benefits.

How many of them would have been–would have actually received new, let's say, less compensation than previous? How many of them would have received more? As well, a lot of this discussion we're having, I know the minister understands, hinges on

definitions. So while it is easy to claim that the total envelope for the senior executives was actually reduced because there are simply less senior executives, I think the other question of course remains how do you measure, then, where do we capture, financial data for individuals who may have previously been called a senior executive and now are called a senior manager in charge of something. In other words, we're–I'm trying to drive at whether the cost savings– what the actual cost savings are after we've measured all of the costs.

I mean, certainly, we could assign a ballpark number to 37 executive positions and say we'd reduced by that amount. Even if we said that was a hundred thousand–and we probably both agree that would probably be low–that would result in, you know, $3.7 million per year, and over three years that would result in a savings. But, of course, we're only going to get to a credible understanding of the actual cost savings by better understanding how many of these people w ere retained and how many went down the road.

If we can turn our attention, then, right now, because we'll anticipate that by the next time we're in Estimates that information would be there. Perhaps we can just spend a little bit of time –the minister mentioned the fact that they were able to achieve a total of a hundred reductions that included both the boards and chairs and of course the executive positions. Let's turn our attention, for a moment, to the boards of directors for the former RHAs. Am I correct in assuming that by reducing 11 to five, we

2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 would have now reduced six chair positions? And from–we would have then–well, let's just ask that question first. We saw six chair positions reduced from the 11 to five. Have any –is that in fact correct, and have any of those board chairs been reintegrate d into the system in another capacity? Ms. Oswald: I would say that the member is correct in that we saw a net reduction of six chairs, because we saw a net reduction of six RHAs.

And those individuals that were formerly serving as chairs in the regional health authorities took non- chair board positions in the new RHAs. Some of them serve as vice-chairs in the merged RHAs –a number of them do, in fact. But, again, the total board position elimination–I believe that number is 81. Mr. Friesen: What would hav e been the stipend per year, annual stipend, that a board chair would have received? * (16:40) Ms. Oswald: The stipend was $9,000 for board chair and up to $4,000 for board members. Mr.

Friesen: So the minister anticipated my next question, was to ask her how much the stipend would have been for board members. Could she just repeat again then how many board member reductions would she have achieved with the amalgamation of the RHAs? Ms. Oswald: The number I've just stated for him was 81. Mr. Friesen: An d could I ask the minister to indicate what kind of costs that she incurred? She made allusion earlier in the Estimates to the fact that there was transitional work. She–I think she used the term transitional work.

And, of course, there would have been transitional work to amalgamate these RHAs, I think some very considerable work. That work would have been undertaken by people within the department, but they would have also, I would have imagined, been done with the assistance of consultants and contracts that they would have entered into agreement with. Could the minister indicate the total envelope for the transitional work associated with the amalgamation of the RHAs, including contractors and consultants outside of the Department of Health? Ms.

Oswald: I can say to the member that the majority of the work to do this transitional process, which I–you know, I would argue, to some extent, is still ongoing. The majority of the work was done by members of my department, and if I have not made mention of it yet in this dialogue, I would certainly take this opportunity to say it was a phenomenal amount of work that I think was handled with expertise and grace and dignity. In addition to the day-to-day duties, individuals in the senior management really put in plenty of hours to endeavour to have this transition go seamlessly.

There were some costs that were incurred by hiring some individuals on contract to assist with some of the efforts, which I believe was appropriate. The work would have been, I think, practically insurmountable. I don't know the exact number of those costs offhand, but I can endeavour to ask my department to tally up what those costs were. So there were some; that is in fact true. But I will go back and have a look at what –for what we have been invoiced and costed up to date in the transition, to provide that information clearly to the member. Mr.

Friesen: And would the member –would the minister also consent to provide the –a list of the companies and the individual consultants and contractors and other groups that would have provided assistance with that transition? Ms. Oswald: I can tell the member that there is work that's going on in the department right now regarding a question that he previously asked me about contracts outside of the department that have been engaged in, and I do believe that this information is included in that work that's being compiled for him.

But, certainly, I can work on peeling that out and sort of answering the questions –the question in two different ways for him. But, yes, I understand the member's question, as does my CFO, and so we will work to get the member a tally of those costs. Mr. Friesen: I appreciate, Mr. Chair, the minister's consent to provide that information and to, yes, break off that information and isolate it from other costs pertaining to contractors and consultants and other groups that would assist with the –with other work within the Department of Health.

Earlier in our conversation, the minister talked about some of that transiti onal activity that would have resulted in the RHA CEO, some of them –or taking a new position in the new RHA. Now, she did mention as well the fact that there would have been severance provided in certain

June 5, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2009 situations. Question for the minister is, because, in essence, the former RHAs were ceasing to exist as entities and the new ones were formed in almost every case, who would have been eligible to receive severance? I guess where I'm going with this, if I can fast-track these questions, is to say, would CE Os who served in that capacity in the former RHAs but who were reintegrated in the system as the CEOs of the new RHAs, would they have also been eligible for severance for their former RHA, and did they in fact receive severance? Ms.

Oswald: Certainly, as part of the answering the question or one of the questions that the member has asked me previously, we can endeavour to capture this in a more clear and concise way to explain remuneration to those individuals. I don't want to find us going down the rabbit hole again, and you looking at one chart and me looking at another. But what I can say to the–and so we will provide that information for the member.

But what I can say generally to the member is that those individuals that moved from the former RHAs in to the new RHAs in CEO positions certainly had their contracts organized in such a manner that they did not receive severance and then the next day get a new salary to be the new CEO in the new RHA. There are some individuals that were formerly CEOs that left the regional health authority and as per the terms and conditions of their contracts, were entitled to severance, and indeed those severances were paid out.

For those individuals that were formerly CEOs that took on a new position in the regional health authority that is not a CEO position, there were negotiations that went on in terms of remuneration as it would relate to the severance they would have received. So, as it's being explained to me by my officials now, it's a bit complicated, but in the main I can say that those that came back into a new position didn't receive a full severance in any way. Those that did leave the regional health authorities in their entirety were indeed entitled to that as per their contracts and so they were paid severance.

And those CEOs that took on a new CEO role did not receive a severance. But as I said to the member, we can endeavour to lay this out for him regarding the previous question that he asked about remuneration. * (16:50) Mr. Friesen: And just to mak e sure that we're not leaving any stones unturned then, if the minister could also expand that to indicate if she would be willing to return information about any CEOs who did not reintegrate in the system and, indeed, any senior executives who didn't reintegrate in this system there but perhaps went to the Department of Health.

We keep talking about the RHAs but, of course, we're trying to understand if there were any individuals who could have moved from RHA positions into the department in any way. Ms. Oswald: I can give him that list right now, because there aren't any. Mr. Friesen: Thank you for that response, and I look forward to receiving those pieces of information, because I think they will help us in terms of calculating these numbers to underst and where these saving were achieved and what the overall costs of these moves were, in fact.

I want to turn our attention, then, also with respect to RHAs, just to try and understand some of the costs that would have been incurred in the process of that transition to the new RHAs.

I'm wondering if the minister–or perhaps we should say, as a result–as a result of the transition to the RHAs, I wonder if the minister is able to produce information at this time that would indicate whether there has been a–an increase because of the RHAs, because we know we've moved from a certain geographic size of region to a much larger one, if there has been a correlation between the amalgamation of the RHAs and an increase with costs associated with transportation for seni or executives within these regions. Ms.

Oswald: Okay, so again I can say to the member that we are working through the savings that we have managed to realize in one year as a result of the mergers. And I have said publicly that we've reduced the–we've exceeded the number of positions that we said we were going to reduce, and we've also been able to exceed the target that we said that we would have over three years, in one year. And so we can spend more time talking about those particular issues at the member's request. On the issue of additional costs for, as the member has cited, travel for regional health authorities.

As I said to the member, I –the last time we were together, the work on regional health authorities' year-ends is currently in process, and so that is all going to be publicly reported in the regional health authorities' financial statements. So that information, indeed, will be available, but, indeed, is currently being tabulated.

2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 5, 2013 I would hasten to add though that we are talking about fewer people travelling. I know they may need to be going greater distances in some cases, obviously, over a larger geographic area, but, in fact, we will see fewer people making those claims. So it's in that sense one of the ways that we're going to be able to see balance come into the process. I do again have a couple of answers for the member. If he wants me to put some of those on the record, I will do that, but I'm going to let him ask me the questions. Mr.

Friesen: Yes, if the minister does have information available from questions that were posed in the earlier session of Estimates, I would invite her to share the information she now has. Ms. Oswald: Yes, I wanted to follow up a little bit on communications with the WRHA. I thought that was important. I did some research after the member asked a question. The member raised an issue with regard to a FIPPA request that was made related to advertising cost in the Winnipeg health region and the fact that that had been denied.

And I need to, in the spirit of fairness, note that I can't know for sure, nor can my staff know individual names or organizations that request information through FIPPA. We are able to receive copies of FIPPAs that are sent so long as identifying information is redacted. So the follow ing information I'm about to put on the record is based on our best guess on the information that you gave us as to which FIPPA you're speaking about. I feel quite confident that it's the right one, but I need to say, fairly, I don't absolutely know that it's the right one.

The information I have is that on August the 10th, 2012, a FIPPA was received by the WRHA asking for total expenses related to advertising and public communications for the fiscal years 2010- 11 and 2011- 12, and this was later clarified on August 29th, 2012. And on September 19th, 2012, the information was sent to the applicant.

Then, on the 1st of February, 2013, the same request from the same organization was sent to the WRHA and it was denied on the grounds that, according to 13(1): a head of a public body may refuse to give access to a record or part of a record if the request is repetitive or incomprehensible –this man's a teacher, so I'm sure it wasn't –or for information already provided to the applicant or that is publicly available. So I understand that another request was received by the WRHA on May 27th, 2013, asking for the same info once again by the same organization.

So I'm advised that the FIPPA was again denied on those same grounds. However, this time the original FIPP A was attached to the letter and has the following information that was originally requested. And that information is: for the fiscal 2010-11, advertising was $339,788.79; and, for fiscal '11 -12, it was $359,099.38; and public relations for '10 -11 was $490,727.50; and, 2011- 12, it was $557,336.12. So–just I hope that that clarifies that there wasn't any malicious intent or any spurious declining on the part of the WRHA. It was just on the view that that information had been provided previously.

I know the region does receive a number of FIPPA requests and does endeavour to try to minimize repetitious responses wherever possible. There was another question the member asked me concerning a FIPPA to the Parkland region, and I am informed that the Parkland region realized that it sent inaccurate advertising numbers in a FIPPA response and the response with the accurate numbers are as follows–and what I understand to be true is that Parkland's correct costs for advertising have indeed subsequently been restat ed. So actual advertising dollars for Parkland in '09- 10, $190,284.

They had said $2.06 million, which was a gap, admittedly. And 2010- 11 the actual advertising dollar was $124,715. They had mistakenly reported $1.9 million, but that has been corrected to $124,715. There was also a question I think the member had about a NOR -MAN FIPPA re

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-2-53
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 2nd hansardpdf 53.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1a35d20a7483f8331ccb45ec686ab741a11b302a

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