Manitoba Hansard — 13 May 2021 (Sitting 62B, 42nd Legislature, 3rd Session)

42-3-62b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXV No. 62B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 13, 2021 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ADAMS, Danielle Thompson NDP ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon. Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon. Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg, Hon. Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott Assiniboia PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib.

LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Turtle Mountain PC REYES, Jon Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron, Hon.

Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon. Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC

3043 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 13, 2021 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Doyle Piwniuk): Please be seated. Good afternoon, everyone. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Deputy Speaker: Introduction of bills? Committee Reports? Tabling of Reports? The honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Friesen)? Okay, we'll go on to–ministerial statements? MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Irene Gamey Mr. Greg Nesbitt (Riding Mountain): Irene Gamey of Strathclair has been inducted into the Manitoba Fiddle Association Wall of Fame in the accompanist category.

Born in 1930 on the family farm in the Rural Municipality of Edward in southwestern Manitoba, Irene remembers being paid 10 cents for taking her turn at the piano, chording for dances at the Eunola School, probably when she was just 11 years old. After she moved with her family to Pierson, Irene played for regular Saturday night dances in the hall with the local orchestra, which included her brother Innes, who played the fiddle. Irene married Roy Gamey of Strathclair–who was also a fiddler–in 1955. The couple passed their love of fiddling and old-time music to many family members.

Four grandchildren play the fiddle. All three of her children, as well as all five grandchildren, chord either on the piano or guitar. Irene became the organist at the Strathclair United Church in the late 1950s and she continues in that role today. As well as accompanying many fiddlers in competitions and at talent nights, Irene found the time to play twice a month with the Harmo ny Music Makers for 20 years from 1981 to 2001. She also join- ed the Strathclair seniors' orchestra–the Carlton Toe Tappers–in the late 1980s, playing at area dances and providing entertainment at local events.

Currently, Irene accompanies two of her grand- sons when they play at local bars, the Strathclair Community Centre and at other events. How cool is it to have your grandmother play with you in a bar? Mr. Deputy Speaker, on behalf of all Manitobans, I want to thank Irene Gamey for her contribution to music in Manitoba and congratulate her on her very wor thy induction into the Manitoba Fiddle Association Wall of Fame. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, could you canvass the House and see if there is will to revert to tabling of reports, following all the members' statements? Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Is it will of the House to actually revert back to tabling of reports after the minister's–after the members' statements? Agreed? [Agreed] Liam-James Moar Young Mr. Wab Kine w (Leader of the Official Opposition): I rise today to pay tribute to a great young Manitoban by the name of Liam -James Moar Young, or Lemon to his grandma. Liam's mom describes the eight- year-old as always happy, really smart and good with technology. She tells me her goal has always been to make every day good for him, and that's meant trips to the zoo, Assiniboine Park and Liam's favourite: The Forks.

Walking around, climbing on structures, playing with bugs. Now, Liam faced some challenges early on. He was diagnosed with autism, but his parents got him help. And because of that, Liam developed a tremen- dous love for going to class. Everything about school, he loves: his school work, gym class, making art, music class. Just an enthusiastic student with a great love for being at school. Did I mention his school friends? Because there are many. But of all his interests, though, No. 1? Trains. At a young age, Liam developed a love of trains. Watch- ing them, talking about them, playing with toy trains.

Liam recently told his mom: I want to work with trains when I get big. Sounds like the type of dream shared by so many Manitoba children. Sadly, Liam passed away just four days before Christmas. He is dearly missed by his mom and dad,

3044 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 his little brother Land on, his aunties, cousins and grandparents. I never had the chance to get to know young Liam. I simply opened the mail one day to find his Aunt Sheila had made this mask and sent it to me in his memory. So I wear it in the Chamber and give this speech wit h the family's permission so that the memory of this good Manitoba boy –Liam-James Moar Young–can live on in the permanent record of our Legislature forever. Carmen Trudeau Mr.

Bob Lagassé (Dawson Trail): I'm honoured today to introduce to you a remarkable young lady who has been recognized provincially for her count - less hours of volunteerism and community service. Carmen Trudeau is a grade 10 student from Ste. Anne Collegiate. Carmen loves her family and it is incredibly important to her. She has two sisters aged 12 and seven. She also has two cats of her own and her family also fosters dogs from Lexie's rescue. At times, they may have up to 8 dogs. Carmen, when she was only seven years old, began volunteering by spending time with seniors at Villa Youville in Ste. Anne.

She would play bingo, go for walks with residents and peel potatoes. She has brought smiles to many people's faces. Carmen cannot wait to get back there once COVID is past. Carmen has also volunteered at the Richer rodeo, Summer in the City, Teddy Bears' Picnic, Mini Soccer coaching, Kismet Creek animal sanctuary. She also volunteered her time helping pets at Waldenway Canine and Kitty Camp. After countless hours of volunteering at the camp, she is now a paid employee. She also works at BP Sport Horses, working with the horses. Carmen has an incredibly supportive friend and she is thankful for.

Her friend Katie often comes to volunteer with her. Carmen was the recipient of this year's Student Citizenship Award from the Manitoba School Boards Association for her exemplary and outstanding role in her community. She received a signed certificate as well as a prize of $1,000, which she plans on investing half for her post -secondary education and the other half on something fun for herself. Carmen believes that citizenship means you are willing to go above and beyond for your community to make a better place for everyone. Please join me in recognizing another Dawson Trail hero, Carmen Trudeau.

Conner Roulette Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas-Kameesak): Today, I want to highlight the achievements of Conner Roulette, a rising young star in Canadian hockey who recently won a gold medal representing Team Canada at the under-18 IIHF world hockey championships. Canada went undefeated in the tourna ment, win- ning their first gold medal since 2013 and beating Russia in a final 5 goals to 3. Conner put his first-round NHL potential on dis- play at the world championships, scoring two goals and three assists in the seven games he played.

Conner's ach ievements are no surprise to his mother, who's known for a long time that Conner would eventually have to leave home to pursue his hockey dream. Before being selected for Team Canada, Conner moved down south to play left wing for the Seattle Thunderbirds, where he scored 19 goals and 20 assists in 54 games in his rookie season with the WHL team. His coaches describe him as a well -rounded of- fensive threat who is talented enough to potentially lead the league in scoring.

However, for Conner, hockey i s not just about scoring goals and winning games; it's also about being a role model for other Indigenous youth. Roulette comes from Misipawistik Cree Nation and has said that it's an honour to represent his family and all Indigenous children when he's out on the ice. He takes pride in the fact that many Indigenous kids come–from his home community and across Canada have reached out to him expressing their support and looking for advice. I want to wish Conner nothing but the best in his future, and I l ook forward to continue seeing him on the ice for many years to come.

Today is another big milestone for Conner as it's also his 18th birthday, so please join me in congrat - ulating him on his outstanding achievements and wishing him a very happy birthday. Ekosi.

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3045 Order of Manitoba Inductees Mr. Dougald Lamont (St. Boniface): I note that yesterday, new members were chosen to receive the Order of Manitoba, the province's highest honour. The ceremony of the order is always a special one. It's a humbling reminder of the many extraordinary people from all walks of life and their contributions to our province, enriching every aspect of our lives.

And I mean that: science and innovation, agri - culture, the economy, sports, music, arts, television, film, heritage, philanthropy and politics–representing institutions that define Manitoba–Indigenous history, the Folk Festival, the Manitoba Museum and the Blue Bombers, to name just a few. We certainly hope the third wave will have dimin- ished and it'll make it safe to gather again on July 15th for the ceremony. This year's inductees include Mr. Steve Bell, Mr. Franklin "Lynn" Bishop, Elder Ruth Christie, Dr. Michael Eskin, Dr. Gordon Goldsborough, Mr. Gregg Hanson, Mr. Kyle Irving, Ms. Ava Kobrinsky, Ms.

Claude tte Leclerc, Ms. Doris Mae Oulton, Mr. Greg Selinger and Mr. Arni Thorsteinson. Of those inductees, I have the pleasure of knowing three, two of whom are constituents. I grew up with Gregg Hanson's nephew, Darren, who says his uncle is a great man. He's right. * (13:40) I worked with Claudette Leclerc at the Manitoba Museum, which is one of my favourite places in the world. Kudos to her. And congratulations to Greg Selinger, who served St. Boniface and Manitobans as a city councillor, MLA, minister and premier. We thank him for his service.

When I see these accomplishments, it reminds me of the plaque at the New Iceland museum in Gimli: Therefore when we build / Let us think that we build forever. / Let it not be for present delight / Nor present use alone. / Let it be such work / As our descendants will thank us for / And let us think / As we lay stone upon stone / That a time is to come / When these stones will be held sacred / Because our hands have touched them. / And that they may say / As they look upon the labour / And wrought substance of them / See, this our forebears did for us. Congratulations, again.

Félicitations. [Congratulations] TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Deputy Speaker: As agreed, we're going to go back to tabling of reports. Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I'm pleased to table the following report for the Department of Justice: the 2018 Annual Review of the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Now for oral questions. ORAL QUESTIONS COVID-19 Third Wave Hospital Staffing Levels Mr.

Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, I want to thank the Minister of Justice for getting us so pumped up as we head into QP with the tabling of the reports there. We know t hat there have been 560 new cases today of COVID -19, which is the highest non- adjusted case count we've seen in a single day. But now we also know that hospitals in Winnipeg and in Brandon are continuing to be understaffed. There's a staff shortage precisely when we need them the most.

I'll table these documents for consideration of the House which show that in the weeks ahead, as we are dealing with the impacts of the rising case counts of the third wave, that there will be 15 empty nursing positions at the Grace Hospital's ICU. Why has the Premier left hospitals in such a staff shortage position as we deal with the third wave? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Well, we've just announced 60 new full-time ICU positions have filled.

We recognize, of co urse, the challenges that all front-line workers–all of us, as people–are facing as a consequence of this pandemic, but in particular those on the front line, and applaud them and thank them for their work. We did inherit a mess, in terms of the health-care system in our province. We are endeavouring to clean it up, and we are especially motivated by the situation that has arisen as a consequence of the COVID pandemic. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Kinew: You know, it's National Nursing Week, and what we hear when we talk to nurses is that the health-care system is worse than it's ever been.

3046 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 That statement started before the pandemic. The pandemic has only served to burden and stres s out nurses even further. The PC caucus claps for an announcement mid - third wave that they're going to start looking for help, but if you're trying to fill 60 positions while you already have 15 nurses short at the Grace Hospital ICU, this third wave is going to be very difficult for Manitobans. Why has the Premier cut health care over the course of his time in office, and why does he refuse to admit the mistakes he's made? Mr.

Pallister: Three quarters of a billion dollars of additional investment in health care isn't well defined as a cut. The member opposite is unfortunately resort- ing to political posturing to try to achieve political advantage during a global pandemic. I would emphasize to the members of the House again that these investments th at we are making are focused, have been focused and will continue to be focused on improving access to service, and service not just during this pandemic but going forward, as well. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary question. Mr.

Kinew: The health -care system is short 1,300 nurses: 1,300 nurses missing who should be caring for people at the bedside but are not there because of the cuts that this government has made. They've cut nursing positions. They've cut health- care support at the bedside. I'll table the document again: 15 nurses who won't be there in the ICU precisely at the time that we need them 'moth'–most. We know that there's also an issue in the ERs, both at the Grace, at Brandon, at hospitals throughout the province.

The PC obsession with cut - ting health-care resources served us poorly before the pandemic, but now, as case counts continue to rise in the third wave, it gets even more serious. Why has the Premier cut health-care staff leading up to the pandemic, and why hasn't he learned from his mistakes? Mr. Pallister: Again, unadmitted mistakes is a theme that the member can speak to with great authority here in the Chamber and elsewhere, but chooses not to. The fact of the ma tter is we're investing three quarters of a billion dollars–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr.

Pallister: –more in health care this year alone– this was pre -pandemic, I should mention, Mr. Speaker–more than the NDP ever invested. I should ment ion that 12.6 new ICU positions for Brandon hospital have already been filled. I should mention, also, that the previous NDP government promised to end hallway medicine and created an even worse situation during their time in office.

And so I would emphasize to the members oppo- site, it is most certainly true that, according to the Canadian institute of health information, Manitoba, at the end of the NDP term, had the longest waits for emergency treatment in the country of Canada. We inherited a mess. We're cleaning it up. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a different question. Manitoba Hydro's Finances Compliance with PUB Request Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, the nurses at the bedsid e tell us things are getting worse.

They're as bad as they've ever been, and it's because of this government. We also know that it's because of this government that Manitoba Hydro is being forced into this cam - paign to try and discredit itself, to try an d mistreat the very workers who give it health. This government has sought to obstruct the people of Manitoba's right to know what is going on with their most important Crown corporation. Luckily, Bill 35 has not passed and we still have a Public Utilities Board who has stepped in to order Manitoba Hydro to show the people the truth about its financial health.

The question remains for the Premier to answer. It's very simple. Will he order Manitoba Hydro to comply with the Public Utilities Board today? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): So, speaking of not learning from the mistakes of the past, the member has just said that we should do what the NDP did when they were in government, which was to direct and in- terfere with Manitoba Hydro's operations, to dis - respect the management and staff of Manitoba Hydro and to–furthermore, to disrespect the people at the Public Utilities Board in the process. And we won't do any of those things.

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3047 What we'll do instead is make the Public Utilities Board stronger with multi-year hearings that will be more transparent so that never again can a $10-billion series of projects be pushed through without the Public Utilities Board even having a chance to review them before billions of dollars is invested. Again, a mess at Manitoba Hydro caused by the deception–bipole west line –deceit by the previous NDP government. That can never happen again.

With these reforms in place, it will never happen again because the real owners of Manitoba Hydro are Manitobans, not the NDP. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: If the Premier has nothing to hide, he should call for a general rate application at the Public Utilities Board today. But he won't. He's afraid that his political narrative, carefully constructed with tax- payer money, will fall apart. We know what he's going to do in the absence of a Public Utilities Board. Ask yourself, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, why haven't we seen the budget implementation bill ye t? Is it because they're planning to raise hydro rates again? They raised it during the second wave. We're in the third wave now. I guess they're going to raise hydro rates again. Will the Premier simply put an end to this charade and order Manitoba Hydro to comply with the Public Utilities Board right now? Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable First Minister. [interjection] Order. Mr. Pallister: Well, again, the member speaks of something which he knows: deceit and cover-ups are certainly the thing of his past, and that of the NDP.

And the fact is, they tripled the debt of Manitoba Hydro without asking the owners for permission, without asking the Public Utilities Board, which he now pretends he stands behind. Actually, Mr.

Speaker, the NDP have never shown any respect during their time in office for the Public Utilities Board, and the fact of the matter is we have the respect for the Public Utilities Board in mind with these reforms, which will put us in line – multi-year rate setting is what virtually eve ry other jurisdiction does–will put us in line, in terms of the transparency and disclosure requirements, with other jurisdictions. * (13:50) The NDP says they're opposed to those changes. Why are they opposed to openness? Why do they want to keep the pr esent system, which allowed them to cover things up? Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The–[interjection] Order. Order. The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: We're opposed to the PC Cabinet raising hydro rates on Manitobans without a public hearing. It's that simple. We're opposed to them doing it again a second time this year. If the Premier believes anything of what he's just shared in the House today, call a public hearing, let the Public Utilities Board take a close examination of the facts and let them tell the people of Manitoba where the truth is.

But we know that they won't do that; instead, the PC caucus will continue to clap for their flailing leader as he claims to liberate the public 'litilities' board from their responsibility to regulate Manitoba Hydro. Just as they turn around and liberate Manitobans from more money from their bank accounts as they raised their Manitoba Hydro rates. Let's put a stop to this. Will the Premier simply order Manitoba Hydro to comply with the Public Utilities Board today? Mr.

Pallister: Well, what –let's be clear what the member is advocating for: he's advocating for polit - ical interference in the operations of Manitoba Hydro. No, we'll not do that. He's advocati ng for political interference in the operations of the Public Utilities Board. No, we will not do that either. Instead, he's also advocating for an increase in rates as a consequence of the millions–tens of millions of dollars that has to be spent for rate application hear- ings in this province, and almost alone is this pro - vince.

Every time there's a rate application hearing, it costs millions of dollars for Manitoba Hydro, for Manitoba Public Insurance, for everyone else. In fact, in the past 10 years alone, Mr. Speaker– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: –the member –if the member would stop spouting and might –he might learn something. [interjection]

3048 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: In the last–get a little control. Recklessly out of control yet again. In the last 10 years alone, Manitoba Hydro's rate- payers have had to pay $92 million for rate hearings every two years, and we're virtually the only province where ratepayers have to pay that. That pushes rates up; we're having an interim, low rate increase; we're saving Manitoba Hydro, bringing it into the light. Education Property Tax Rebate Premier's Financial Disclosures Mr.

Mark Wasyliw (Fort Garry): You know, it's not just anyone–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Wasyliw: –in Manitoba who gets breaks on their luxury tax for their third residence in a foreign country. But Manitoba's Premier does: an 80 per cent amnesty on taxes he was dodging. The important thing in Manitoba is that any polit- ical leader needs to be honest with Manitobans. When asked about the amnesty on his tax dodge, his spokes- person said that the Premier, quote, did not request to take

part in any such program. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it's an application- based amnesty. The Premier applied for the amnesty, and he timed his application in order to maximize the benefit he would personally get. Why is this Premier once again trying to mislead Manitobans? [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I just want to remind everybody in the House that when we're in virtual, we can't hear them, and Hansard can't hear them, so if – they're actually members of your own team, so I –if everybody can have some decorum here. Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): I do appreciate any question from any member of the NDP on taxes. So, the senior members of the NDP have alleged that their leader, presently in place, did not pay his taxes for many, many years. Now, I have paid mine. My life is an open book. But he has not, allegedly, paid his. Now, he has the opportunity to address this issue. He could provide some evidence that he has paid his, and I invite him to clear the air. I invite him to say that he has, in fact, fully paid his income taxes in Manitoba and Canada. And, if he has, I look forward to him saying so. [interjection] Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. The clocks are ticking. The honourable member for Fort Garry, on a supplementary question. Mr. Wasyliw: All I can, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is , wow, this Premier certainly lives in an alternative reality. Now, this Premier dodged a flood and said he was at a wedding in Calgary. Turns out he was in Costa Rica. This Premier dodged his taxes, then he said they were paid. Turns out he got an amnesty. Now the Premier's caught in a web that he himself has spun. He tells the media he had no knowledge of the amnesty and that he did not request to take

part in any such program, but you had to apply for this pro- gram, and we know this Premier not only applied for it, he timed his application to maximize his benefit. Whether it's his conduct in Costa Rica or in Manitoba, why should anyone trust anything this Premier says? Mr. Pallister: I was at a family wedding in Lacombe, not Calgary, and I would invite the member opposite, again– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Pallister: –I would invite the member opposite again–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: –to declare –since, Mr. Speaker, my family's taxes are fair game–[interjection] Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: –since my family's taxes are fair game, and I accept that and I answer questions about that all the time, then I think it is only fair–[interjection]–then I think it is only fair–that the Leader of the Opposition should answer the same types of questions about his tax background. If my taxes are an issue, why would his not be an issue? This is an issue of fairness. And so I can only say, if the member would simply avail himself of the opportunity –it is not me making the allegation; it is his own people.

If he won't even address this issue with his own people when they raise it, then I would suggest he's fuelling the idea that he has something to hide. Taxes: it is an honour to pay them and I pay them. Does he? Does he?

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3049 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Are you done now? The honourable member for Fort Garry, on a final supplementary question. Mr. Wasyliw: For once, I think I agree with the Premier. This is about tax fairness. Now, this Premier got a break on taxes when he dodged, you know, for his third residence, his tropical villa in Costa Rica, but that wasn't enough for him. Now, back in Manitoba, he wants big breaks on his second residence, as well as his mansion on Wellington Crescent. Bill 71 puts thousands of dollars a year i n the Premier's pocket.

He's doing this while clawing back benefits from renters, many of whom are the critical workers fighting this pandemic. It's obscene, it's out of touch and completely in character for a Premier who governs only for himself and for his friends. Why does this Premier and his ministers think there is one set of rules for them and another, harsher– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member's time is up. [interjection] Time is up. Mr. Pallister: We'll be making additional invest- ments, significant investments in the education system using general revenue.

The major way that you fuel general revenue is, in every other province, not taxes on property –not taxes on property. My rebate is actually lower than the Leader of the NDP's and the member who just asked the question. The actual fact is we'll raise money for education from income taxes, and so my question for the member opposite is, why does he not feel that he has the obligation to prove to Manitobans that he pays his? [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. Death at Correctional Facility Request for Public Inquest Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns): William Ahmo, a 45 -year-old Indigenous father from my home community of Sagkeeng First Nation, died February 14th, 2021, af ter an altercation while housed at Headingley correctional facility. Lory–lawyer Corey Shefman, working with Mr. Ahmo's family, recently uncovered that the altercation that led to William's death started with racist jokes and ended up with stun grenades a nd gas canisters. There is a clear need for an independent investiga- tion into Mr. Ahmo's death. Will the minister call for an independent inquiry into Mr. William Ahmo's death, today? Hon.

Cameron Friesen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The member for St. Johns is the critic for Justice and clearly understands that there is a process that is involved whenever there is a death in corrections. It's always a tragedy when there is a death in corrections, and that member knows very well that the RCMP's major crimes unit is investigating this, and I'm not able to make any comment while that investigation continues. It's important and indepen- dent work. * (14:00) Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms.

Fontaine: The details emerging are disturbing. William, an unarmed man, but for some reason guards needed to use full tactical gear, stun grenades and gas canisters to respond to his reaction at racist comments. William Ahmo's mom, Darlene, de serves to know what happened to her son leading up to his death. I spoke with Darlene just an hour ago and she shared with me, and I quote: I want answers. I don't want this swept under the rug. My son was a human being and didn't deserve to die like tha t. He was supposed to be in their care. I want accountability within the justice system.

Will the minister answer the call of a grieving mother and call an independent investigation into Mr.– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member's time is up. Mr. Friesen: The member and I have found a point of agreement: the family does deserve answers. And that is why there's an independent investigation under - taken by the RCMP's major crimes unit into this matter. When that work is concluded, it will be reported to the family and to all Manitobans. Any death in custody is also reported to the Chief Medical Examiner, and an inquiry will follow under this process. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St.

Johns, on a final supplementary question.

3050 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 Deaths at Correctional Facilities Reinstatement of Mandatory Inquiries Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): Mr. Ahmo is one of six citizens to die in correctional institutions in Manitoba in 2020 alone. In Manitoba, approximately 75 per cent of all people in corre ctional facilities are Indigenous and 70 per cent of those citizens, including Mr. Ahmo, have not been convicted of the crime that they're accused of committing.

This government must call a public inquiry into the deaths of all people incarcerated in Man itoba, as well as the systemic racism that is present within the justice system. The need for transparency and accountability is greater than ever. Will the minister restore mandatory inquiries into the deaths of all peoples in correctional faci lities in Manitoba today? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): That member knows that in Manitoba, there is a very significant process that is put into place when there is a death of an inmate in cus - tody in one of our correctional institutions.

That process is now under way with the RCMP major crimes unit investigating. When that process is concluded, it will be reported to my office and will be reported to Manitobans. The death will be reported to the chief medical examination–examiner's office. An inquiry will follow. The issue is this: we have confidence in the pro- cess that is now under way. All members should have confidence in the process that is under way. Internationally Educated Nurses Recruitment and Retention Ms. Malaya Marcelino (Notre Dame): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, cuts and consolidation left our hospitals in horrible shape: over 1,500 nurse vacancies in Winnipeg and Prairie Mountain regions alone, and the Pallister government cut 70 nurse training spaces at Red River College. Manitoba hospitals are facing the cresting third wave of this pandemic in far worse shape than they should have. Now, other provinces chose not to cut as this gov- ernment did, and they went much further in recruiting internationally educated nurses. They made credential transfer and recognition far more affordable and fair. Manitoba has done none of this.

We are losing tal- ented people to other provinces when we need them. Why has this government not prioritized inter - nationally educated nurses? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Health and Seniors Care): I thank the member for the question. In fact, we are expanding the bachelor of nursing programs to get more registered nurses into our sys - tem. Twenty new spaces have been created in the University College of the North's diploma and prac - tical nursing program, which is now being offered to students in and around the Thompson and Flin Flon areas.

And we're working hand in hand with the Provincial Nominee Program to find individuals with professional nursing backgrounds. So we'll continue to work to ensure that we get more nurses in the province of Manitoba. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Notre Dame, on a supplementary question. Ms. Marcelino: Mr. Deputy Speaker, whate ver this minister says they are doing is not enough. Cuts and consolidation have left a hole. Chief nurse Lanette Siragusa concedes that there is now a nursing shortage in Manitoba.

Small wonder, as one of the first acts of this PC government was to cut benefits for graduating nurses. Other provinces have not done so. I'll table infor- mation about an Ontario nurse program. They are providing a $10,000 bonus for a commitment of one year of service. Ontario also funds direct support for internationally educated nurses. In British Columbia, they are offering free accommodations. In Manitoba, nurses have been without a contract for four years, and this government has cut training spaces and they have not prioritized internationally educated nurses.

Why is this government driving front-line health care into the ground? Mrs. Stefanson: Recruitment and retention of nurses is nothing new in the province of Manitoba. It was something that was alive and well under the previous NDP government. We're continuing to clean up their mess. We'll work very closely with the college of nurses to ensure that we recruit more nurses. And we'll –we are continuing to train more and more nurses. We did announce last week, in fact, 60 more ICU nurses that

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3051 were trained and we w ill be adding to our acute -care system. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Notre Dame, on a final supplementary question. Ms. Marcelino: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitoba has a pool of internationally educated nurses ready to get trained, tested and work in Manitoba's hospitals. But, under this government's watch, Manitoba now has a notorious reputation for unfair barriers to credential recognition for nurses.

For the past five years, the Manitoba Provincial Nominee Program has not accepted nurse s, and right now Red River College's bridging programs for nurses are sitting empty. No students are registered for fall because they know that their efforts will be useless and they have a better chance at getting their nursing licences in other provinces, and they do. This process must be re-evaluated to make it more fair and afford- able. Will the minister commit today to working with the College of Registered Nurses to modernize the process to create a fair and affordable process for– Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable member's time is up. [interjection] Order. Order. Mrs. Stefanson: As I mentioned 'previoly' –pre- viously, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that yes, we will work with the college of nurses. In fact, we are working with them, again, to clean up the mess of the previous NDP government. We'll continue to work with Shared Health, we'll continue to work with RHAs, post-secondary institu- tions, nurses and others to ensure that we help fix this issue. Education Assistants Layoff Concerns Mr.

Nello Altomare (Transcona): Twice this week, I asked the minister to protect the jobs of educational assistants. Last year, they were laid off by the thousands. On Tuesday, he suggested that EAs would still be there serving families. Now, we've gotten word that layoffs are already beginning, including 70 at Seven Oaks starting May 21st. Will the minister direct the school division and protect the jobs of critical education workers in the province? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Education): I do thank the member opposite for that question.

It's very unfortunate that that particular school division, through their trustees, has decided to lay these individuals off. Now, clearly, we're trying to make accommo - dations for critical workers in schools–or, the students of–or the kids, the children of critical -care workers. We're trying to allow any special needs students to use those facilities as well. It's just unfortunate the school 'trustrees' would decide to lay these people off at this time. Mr. Deputy Spe aker: The honourable member for Transcona, on a supplementary question. Mr. Altomare: We're very concerned that this is just the beginning.

The minister laid off thousands of criti- cal education workers last year in the second wave. The minister said that EAs should be there to support, and he promised schools should keep their EAs, but we're hearing that they've already started losing their jobs, including the 70 that I just itemized earlier. Will he step in and direct school divisions not to lay off EAs, and will he do that today? Mr. Cullen: Well, I wonder which way the member wants it. I mean, he's talking about local choice and local voice. Now he wants us to go in there and direct school divisions what to do. The reality here, Mr.

Speaker: we've set aside, last year's budget, $185 million for COVID response. We've invested over $50 million in staffing. That's 3,500 positions that we have paid for in school divisions. * (14:10) Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona, on a final supplementary question. School Division Collective Bargaining Request to Withdraw Wage Freeze Mandate Mr. Nello Altomare (Transcona): For years, this Pallister government has forced unconstitutional wage freezes on thousands of Manitoba teachers and school staff. That is wrong and it needs to stop.

Now the government is threatening school divi - sions and trying to force them not to bargain with teachers in the three largest school divisions in our province: River East Transcona, Winnipeg and Louis Riel.

3052 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 It's time for this government to stop interfering in this. Will the minister withdraw the unconstitutional wage freeze mandate and will he ensure a fair deal for teachers in the three largest school divisions in our province? [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Education): It's just I'm having a hard time rationalizing where the mem - ber's coming from. You know, there's 37 school divi- sions. They're out there in the middle of arbitration. In fact, most of them have already settled the arbitration process.

I mean, we're not interfering with that. We're allowing them to do the collective bargaining process. I don't know, now he wants us to go and intervene in that process? I'm not sure where the member's coming from. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Harassment and Assault in Labour Movement Request to Call Independent Inquiry Mr. Dougald Lamont (St. Boniface): A week ago, I wrote to the Premier and Leader of the Opposition asking for an all -party agreement to call an inquiry into allegations of harassment and even sexual assault being covered up in the labour movement.

There have been multiple allegations made over several years, and since we made our call, a number of women have reached out to us with their own stories, overwhelmed with emotion that they might have been–finally been believed, and they might have an opportunity for justice to be done. For speaking up, they've faced retaliation and financial ruin. They do not have resources to hire a lawyer to fight for themselves. Only an independent judicial inquiry can provide the venue for investi - gation and justice that they seek.

Will the Premier and Justice Minister call an inde- pendent judicial inquiry or will these women have to continue to suffer in silence? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): As a government, we've been very adamant that we need to take action to address issues of not only workplace harassment but harassment in general. We've initiated some of the strongest such actions and consequences, policies and administrative practices to do that. We would like to continue to see support from all parties in that respect.

Disappointed, of course, in the actions of the opposition when they disrespected the findings of an independent arm's-length analysis of an harassment claim by one of their members but, nonetheless, would hope that going forward, we could work to- gether to see these issues of unsafe work environ - ments addressed. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. Boniface, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Lamont: There was a common thread to the stories we heard: that they loved their jobs, believed in their work and their cause, but when they did the right thing, going through proper channels to report harassment or even a cr ime, they faced retaliation, threats, blacklisting and job losses. Will this government call an inquiry to empower and protect women in the labour movement and make them safe? Mr. Pallister: I, again, would say to all members of the Chamber that these issues must be addressed, and they must be addressed fully.

We have taken the actions, as a government, to move forward on anti -harassment policies that we believe can work, if effectively supported by all parties on an ongoing basis, to protect people in t he workplace. We will not be satisfied, on this side of the House, until every parent, every spouse, every family member knows that their daughter or son is safe in the work environment of government. And the member has raised the issue of concerns raised by people in the labour movement. I know those have been discarded when people have gone to the Opposition Leader. I know that he has refused to address these.

I know also that the NDP does not have a policy to address harassment, even after it was raised repeatedly as a concern by staff within their own organization. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: And I would encourage them, and I would encourage all members to work together – [interjection]–to work together, as the Concordia member is now heckling. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: He is choosing to heckle rather than listen. I am inviting him and all of our colleagues in the House to stand together and make the workplace safer for all. [interjection] Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. Order.

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3053 I'm standing here. When I'm standing, you're sup- posed to be quiet. All of you. Harassment and Assault in Labour Movement Request to Call Independent Inquiry Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Tyndall Park): I've had a few ongoing conversations with women who have reached out to me over the last couple of weeks about their own personal experiences of harassment. We need to act on this now. We need to stand in solidarity and show support for all women who want to be able to come forward now and for our future.

The Premier just said he won't be satisfied until we act on this, so stand in solidarity with women who have been impacted by harassment and call for an inquiry immediately. Will this government call for that inquiry? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): I do appreciate the members raising this issue, and it is a critically impor- tant issue. They're equating the solution with one thing: an inquiry. We think that support for the poli - cies we have developed, from all parties, would be the first step in the direction of making a positive change. We understand that women have been harassed in the workplace, and men.

And so as a government we have dedicated ourselves, not only with policies but with transparent reporting mechanisms, to make sure that these things are brought to light and addressed. No one should have to endure a culture of suck it up. No one should have to be part of a process where- by their concerns are ignored on an ongoing basis or they're told to be quiet, r egardless of the position of the person. This is why I react when the members opposite invoke parliamentary privilege as an entitle- ment to harass. It is not, nor should it ever be, an entitlement–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr.

Pallister: –to harass. And the members opposite, who have publicly spoken out against harassment –such as the member for St. Johns (Ms. Fontaine) –[interjection]–such as the member for St. Johns, who claims to be a supporter of the #MeToo movement, claims that she is for a better, safer workplace–then act like it. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Provincial Water Management Announcement of New Strategy Mr. Rick Wowchuk (Swan River): Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, our government recently announced a $1-million investment–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr.

Wowchuk: –to fund activities, projects and studies that will support the development – [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Wowchuk: –and implementation of Manitoba's– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr. Wowchuk: –new provincial water–[interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I'm standing. [interjection] Stop the clock. Stop the –turn off the audio. This is getting out of hand here. This –we're supposed to have a respectful workplace here, too, here. I'm ser - ious here. And the thing is, what we're –how we're conducting ourselves is very shameful. Mr.

Wowchuk: Our government recently announced a $1-million investment to fund activites, projects and studies that will support the development and implementation of Manitoba's new provincial 'water- ment'–or, water management strategy. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Resource Development inform the House what the significance of this investment is to our province? Hon. Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Agriculture and Resource Development): I thank my colleague for that question. Water is a key resource for all Manitobans.

We need to manage this precious resource sustainably as a key resource for the betterment of all Manitoba ns, our ecosystems and the economy, while considering the impacts of a changing climate and growing econo- mic and social needs. This new water management strategy will focus on conservation of wetlands, enhance resiliency, im - proving water quality, managing nutrients, protecting biodiversity and sustaining economic development. And I'd like to thank the oversight committee led by EMILI for leading this important work for managing this critical resource for generations to come for all Manitobans.

3054 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 Thank you. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The clock is running. CancerCare Manitoba Services in North Winnipeg MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): Last fall, the Pallister government announced the closure of outpatient CancerCare treatment in North Winnipeg at Concordia and Seven Oaks hospital. It's a cut that has disrupted many people's lives. Unfortunately, this cut has impacts beyond Winnipeg. * (14:20) We've now learned that CancerCare in Selkirk will not be accepting new patients for most of this month.

The facility says it's over capacity and it physi- cally does not have the chairs to accommodate any more patients. It's another cut to our health- care system that's having real impacts on so many Manitobans. Why did this government close CancerCare services in north Winnipeg? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Health and Seniors Care): In fact, the member is just wrong. We're investing more than $25 million more this year in CancerCare. In Manitoba, we recognize that there is much work that needs to be done. We're in the middle of a pandemic.

We're trying to deal with some of the challenges around that, but we'll continue to advocate and work with those who need that much– necessary cancer treatment in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, on a supplementary question. MLA Asagwara: The closure of outpatient CancerCare services at Concordia and Seven Oaks is putting too heavy a load on the remaining facilities. Selkirk is just packed. There's physically not enough chairs to accommodate patients, and the pharmacy determined that the volumes are becoming unsafe.

So they've halted new patients for most of this month, and that means that folks are going have to drive much further when they're al ready struggling with challenges like battling cancer. CancerCare's motto is close–is care close to home. Under this Pallister government, it's highway medicine and care wherever you can find it. Why–why–is this government undermining CancerCare in Manitoba? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): This anniversary of my sister's passing due to cancer, I can say quite–with great confidence, we are not.

And I can also say this is the same group of people that accused us of cutting cancer drugs to Manitobans, they were so desperate to make a political point. I'd like to inform members of the House of some good news, if I could. The member for Brandon West, the Minister of Central Services (Mr. Helwer), announced earlier today that we are going to be ex - panding Internet services to 125,000 underserved and unserved households in rural and northern Manitoba over the next few years.

I thought that it would be good to share that news with members of the House because this is the great opportunity to equalize opportunity for rural and northern children and com - munities, business development and opportunities for jobs to be enhanced. I thought it was some good news that I'd like to share with the members during this global pandemic. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for q uestion period has expired. PETITIONS Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Altomare), do you have a petition? No? The honourable member for Union Station (MLA Asagwara)? No petition?

The honourable member for Keewatinook? Mr. Ian Bushie (Keewatinook): No petition. Mr. Deputy Speaker: No? Personal-Care Homes–Quality of Care Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Manitoba elders and seniors built this country and province and should receive the highest level of support, having earned the right to be treated with due respect, dignity, understanding and compassion as a fundamental human right. Residents of personal-care homes deserve to have the best possible quality of life in their last few days, weeks, months or years. Yet family members are reg- ularly left angry, frustrated, disappointed and shocked

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3055 at the care their loved ones receive in Manitob a's personal-care homes. Seniors who reside in personal -care homes have the right to visitation by family members, especially those who provide day-to-day assistance in augment- ing the care of their loved ones as designated family caregivers.

These indivi duals are essential part ners in care, actively and regularly participating in providing care, and may support feeding, mobility, personal hygiene, cognitive stimulation, com muni- cation, mean ingful connection, relational continuity and assistance in decision-making.

Legal representation, such as lawyers, powers of attorney and health- care proxies, should always be allowed unlimited and unobstructed access to the residents for whom they are responsible, as they depend on their designated legal representative to ensure proper and adequate care and act as legal designate for care decisions on their behalf. Most personal -care homes do not have enough health-care aides to adequately provide the afore - mentioned basic care for seniors with high and complex levels of physical and mental issues, such as those with dementia coupled with multiple chronic conditions.

Residents often require assistance in com- municating their needs to overworked health- care aides, and most often this is accomplished with the assistance of designated family caregivers. Because of the insufficient number of health-care aides, especially full-time staff, available to personal- care homes, residents often lack the most basic care, such as feeding, toileting, hydration, dental care, per- sonal grooming, exercise and socialization.

The lack of such basic care often leads to health issues such as periodontal disease, dehydration, urin- ary tract infection, sepsis, pressure ulcers, bedsores and more, which often lead to hospitalization when left unreported. Family members who advocate for improvements of such basic care can be dismissed or are met with resistance because there is not enough staff or funding to provide proper essential care.

Family members who repeatedly put significant pressure on personal -care-home staff and manage- ment for the required basic care, according to the per- sonal-care-home's own published standards, are often labelled as troublemakers and barred from entering into the home and/or contact with their loved ones. Care home management will utilize the 'preddy' trespassers act to justify their actions rather than improve the level of care.

Under such circumstances, the additional stress and worry serves to increase the difficulty in the relationship between the resident, the family member and the personal -care home, resulting in increased tensions and fear of reprisals. Concerns related to the above situation escalate when the barred family member receives information from their loved ones, basic needs are not bein g met, further 'exacer - baishting' the issue.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to establish an independent, nonpartisan seniors' advocate to ensure that care standards are being met in all Manitoba personal-care homes and to resolve disputes before harm comes to residents of personal-care homes; To urge the provincial government to ensure residents of personal -care homes receive adequate, hands-on care to provide for their basic needs and ongoing physical care based on their individual requirements; To urge the provincial government to ensure that the mental health needs of communication and socialization of personal-care-home residents are met through a combination of facilitated program s, suf - ficient staff on hand to provide these services and adequate access to family members, designated family caregivers and other visitors under all reasonable circumstances; To urge the provincial government to enforce mechanisms that mandate operators to proactively and collaboratively work with designated family care- givers who augment care by ensuring they are allowed access to their loved ones under all reasonable circum- stances to provide active care and support to the resi- dent's emotional well-being, health and quality of life.

Signed by Kaitlyn Coates, Matt [phonetic] Coates, Byrna McDermid and many other Manitobans. Merci. Miigwech. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Speaker: In accordance to rule 133-6, when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Diagnostic Testing Accessibility Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

3056 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) Until recently, diagnostic medical tests, in- cluding for blood and fluid samples, were available and accessible in most medical clinics.

(2) Dynacare blood test labs have consolidated their blood and fluid testing services by closing 25 of its labs.

(3) The provincial government has cut diagnostic testing at many clinic sites, and residents now have to travel to different locations to get their testing done, even for a simple blood test or urine sample.

(4) Further, travel challenges for vulnerable and elderly residents of northeast Winnipeg may result in fewer tests being done or delays in testing, with the attendant effects of increased health -care costs and poorer individual patient outcomes.

(5) COVID-19 emergency rules have resulted in long outdoor lineups, putting vulnerable residents at further risk in extreme weather, be it hot or cold. Moreover, these long lineups have resulted in longer wait times for services and poorer service in general.

(6) Manitoba residents value the convenience and efficiency of the health -care system when the y are able to give their samples at the time of the doctor visit. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to immedi - ately demand Dynacare maintain all of the phle- botomy, blood sample sites existing prior to the COVID-19 public health emergency, and allow all Manitobans to get their blood and urine tests done when visiting their doctor, thereby facilitating local access to blood testing services. This petition is signed by many Manitobans. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Any further petitions? Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Could you please resolve into Committee of Supply. * (14:30) Mr. Deputy Speaker: It has been announced th at we're going to be resolving into the Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ROOM 254 * (14:50) EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Mr. Chairperson (Dennis Smook): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This sec- tion of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of Executive Council.

Does the honourable First Minister have an opening statement? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): No. Mr. Chairperson: No. We thank the minister for that. Does the official –the Leader of the Official Opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Yes. Thanks in advance to the staff who are joining us here today, both in terms of those with Executive Council and those who work for the Legislative Assembly, clerks and Hansard and security staff.

Also thank the First Minister in advance for the time we're going to spend here in Estimates. * (15:00) I just want to note that, you know, there's a lot of speculation and whatnot, and I'm not going to ask the Premier to comment on it, but it is significant to me that perhaps it's the last time to spend in Estimates together, depending on what choice he makes later on in the year.

Lot s of media speculation he may be moving on, so I just wanted to put it on the record that if this is, in fact, the last opportunity we can get to sit across the Estimates table, that it's certainly been interesting to participate in this process over the years; and likewise with question period, et cetera. So I know that there's a lot going on in the govern- ment today with COVID pandemic response, likely reopening plans in the near future –other, I guess, aspects of, you know, the economic recovery too. And that's in addition to all the normal operation of government.

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3057 So, certainly a lot to dive into here. You know, just I guess by way of giving a heads -up to the First Minister and some staff, just so they kind of know where I'd like to kind of discuss this afternoon, more so interested in some of that pandemic response; the stuff that's sort of, kind of leading the news these days, and that way we just kind of start with some of those points there.

So, again, we know that it's been–it's a very challenging time, a very taxing time for people in Manitoba, and there's been a lot going on when it comes to the pandemic –560 cases today, I believe, and without adjusting, as has had happened on some other dates, that is, I believe, the highest single day we've had prior to those adjustments. And so the third wave definitely not something to be ignored; very, very serious, and certainly is going to mean continued diligence in terms of the hospitalizations, the ICUs and the other impacts of the pandemic response.

Beyond that, we also know that there's needs in the hospitals, the rest of the health-care system, long- term care; and so these are, of course, some issues that we're very keen to look into. But, again, with a particular focus on Executive Council, you know, like to understand how the processes are working, in terms of co -ordinating that response, how is the decision making being carried out, how are these decisions being delegated down through the organization, et cetera.

So I think with those comments out of the way, just want to again start our Estimates in a good way and just put a few thoughts on the record at that high level. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Kinew) for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is traditionally the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of line item 2.1.(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in resolution 2.1. Given that the Estimates of Executive Council consist of only one resolution, the discussion will proceed in a global manner.

I would like to remind the participants that when you have one minute remaining in your question or answer, I will fla sh the sign, because before I could make eye contact but because of the distance and I would also like a clear indication as to when you are ready to speak because I don't want to signal the recorder to put, you know, the microphones on if you're not ready because then they go on and you may not be ready. So I'll ask for a clear signal as to when, also because of the distance that we are here. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Kinew: Thank you for your instruction there, Mr.

Chair, and we'll do our best to abide by all of that which you just shared. So, for me, I think one of the significant things, both as a parent first and foremost but also as a politician, this week has been the switch to remote learning for schools. It affects a lot of families here in Winnipeg. It's affecting a lot of families in Brandon. We've definitely heard from a lot of folks about that. We've also heard from some folks unaffected, if you will: people outside of those two regions but still in Manitoba, who have questions about their schools, as well.

So, we understand that there was a hint at this made by Dr. Roussin in his evening press conference on Friday. There was some other conversation, per - haps some other commentary at other press con- ferences, but I think the big thing that stands out is Dr. Roussin's hint on Friday night. The actual announcement about the switch to remote learning–it followed on Sunday, early after - noon, and then the switch actually took effect Wed- nesday. And so, on the one hand not a lot of notice to parents, but on the other hand seemingly a delay there on the part of the government announcing the switch to remote learning.

So, I want to ask the Premier (Mr. Pallister) if the delay in making the announcement was caused by Cabinet infighting over whether or not to announce the switch to remote learning. Mr. Pallister: No. But the member has just alluded to notice being given, and that's important to give school staff, officials, parents time to adjust and adapt. The announcement had been made by Dr. Roussin on the Friday and incorporated on Monday. They would have had three days' notice; the announcement was made on Sunday and three days' notice was given then instead.

There's ongoing discussion around all issues throughout this pandemic, t here are co -ordinating committee participants who engage in regular dis - cussion on a wide array of issues, and clearly the issue of closing schools is a major issue of importance to all Manitobans.

3058 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 And I want to say to the member, too, and the–in the spirit of co -operation, that I know there may be some speculation also about whether he will be stay - ing on as Leader of the NDP, and so I want to say to him in equal fraternity that I've enjoyed our engage - ments together here, and many times in the House. And so I wish him all the best in the –in his future endeavours as well. Mr.

Kinew: The issue of notice is significant because, for example, many high school students in Winnipeg only attend school every third day, which means that many of those students wouldn't have had the oppor- tunity to see their teachers before they had to switch to remote learning. So, the decision and the notice period was in- sufficient, and I would note that the Minister of Education (Mr. Cullen) said in the House this week that the government knew for a week that schools had to close. So, when exactly was the decision taken that schools would have to switch to remote in Winnipeg and Brandon? Mr.

Pallister: I don't think the member's accurate in his representation of what the m inister said, and so I would put that on the record, Mr. Chair. I would also say that, throughout this pandemic, we have followed public health advice. And, obvious- ly, in the issue of schools there's interface on an ongoing basis with educational leaders throughout our province–not a decision to undertake without that kind of due consideration. Any closure of a school has impacts that are indisputable. Non-closure of schools so–also has an impact.

We saw an increased number of cases over the last two o r three weeks within our schools, within– among staff and students, and so it was felt that it was the appropriate action to take in those areas the mem- ber referred to earlier in Winnipeg and Brandon. We had, previous to that time, worked with edu- cational authorities throughout the province on the closure of some schools where there had been out - breaks, numerous –too numerous.

I mean, any out - break, any case of COVID is too many, but when there are a significant number of cases within a school com- munity or they're going–they're –appear to be trans - mitting among students within the school I think that would be–I don't want to misrepresent the scientists on this, but I think that's generally the rationale for when it gets to a certain point, moving to remote learn- ing situation for at least a time that was undertaken in several schools as well prior to this time.

So each one of these cases is, as the member quite readily points out, important, and important to deli - berate upon and to do so co- operatively, so that's the approach we've taken throughout this pandemic. Mr. Kinew: So, the Minister of Education said, and Hansard shows this, that they knew schools would have to close for a week. The Premier (Mr. Pallister) now says that they were watching cases rise over the last two to three weeks. So, I would like to know when was the actual decision made to switch those schools to remote learning? * (15:10) Mr. Pallister: I don't think the member has a gotcha moment.

There were hundreds of cases over the last two weeks, and that's a reality. The situation was clearly escalating, as it has throughout other pro- vinces. The decisions around school closures are major impact. One has to weigh, obviously, the safety of staff and students, but, at the same time, the recog- nition has to be there that children learn far better in schools, and so I think the consensus view would be to–as much as possible–try to keep the schools open. Manitoba has had, in partnership with our school officials, great success in doing that up until these recent days.

That's similar in terms of the numbers of COVID cases lower in Manitoba than in most other juris - dictions outside of I would say New Brunswick, PEI, Newfoundland–two of the three an island. We've, as people in Manitoba–and I give the people of Manitoba the credit for this, and following health orders, which is important to do–Manitobans have done an im - peccable job of holding back the third wave but we're not an island here in Manitoba. And cases have started to rise, no later than other jurisdictions.

I would note, for example, by comparison, Saskatchewan, up until the numbers–last numbers I've seen were, I believe, Monday, up to date Monday–had almost 10,000 more COVID cases than Manitoba has had year-to-date. It's not good to have any COVID cases and we, yesterday, marked–the Opposition Leader and I both marked a sad occasion in the House, and that was the reaching of a threshold: 1,000 Manitobans who've lost their lives. We know that this pandemic has had ravaging effects on families, on businesses, on com - munities and it's going to continue to, but we need to

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3059 stay focused on doing the right thing at the right time and we've done our best to do that and it's the case with schools; it's the case with every issue we've undertaken. Mr. Kinew: So, how many days before Sunday's announcement was the decision taken to switch schools in Winnipeg and Brandon to remote learning? Mr. Pallister: The dialogue has been ongoing around whether or not to close schools whether individually or collectively throughout the pandemic. this issue has never been off the table.

Regardless of the fact that early on we had no cases, as we know, throughout most of last year, getting into September then it began to rise. The dialogue was a lways there with school officials on an ongoing basis. We proceeded with school closures out of an abundance of caution early on as –I won't have–I can get the dates for the member if he'd like–I think it was early on, perhaps as early as March of last year. With caution we moved right to remote learning, proceeded to supply significant investments.

We've had the Safe Schools funding, $160 million to help with COVID - related costs coming up in this fiscal year –that's not insignificant. The funding issues arise in part because, of course, there are additional transitional investments that have to be made to help our educators and in fact to assist them in providing and revising their tech- niques of educating their children that are in their care. We invested over $4 million in a virtual learning strategy.

I've had some interface with teachers–I have a few teachers in my circle; I suppose every member of the Legislature does–but they have told me they've learned a lot through this process and a lot they've learned the hard way. Some of the good things that have happened though, as a consequence –if you can take this for - ward–are increased use of technology in, for example, being able to provide visual lessons to students who are away ill.

Some of these things can be–will be able to be used by educators going forward after we get this COVID thing dealt with, to assist in helping with additional instruction when necessary. Some students have challenges in terms of regular attendance. This is an opportunity to provide them with more learning materials and ongoing reinforcement using tech- nology. So I'm hearing from educators that they actually are excited to take the lessons of the pandemic and use them to assist them in their careers as they move for - ward to use what they can to assist their students.

Sometimes it is out of these challenging times that we come up with skills and adapt as people to assist our- selves with those hard lessons, with those challenges, to assist ourselves in doing a better job going forward. And again, this is one of the by -products that I think educators are saying they are hoping to see happen as a consequence of this. I–and I know the member will echo this, but I have tremendous respect for the educators and staff of our schools who have been faced with such a chal - lenge through this pandemic.

I only had a brief time as a teacher, but I enjoyed it and I found it to be motivational and rewarding. I was able to help some young people who needed the help. And I can say that one of the challenging times we faced in our school–this is in a small community– well, I shouldn't say too small because I see the mem- ber for that area may be with us, but about 1,000 people, was when we had a flood and we had to close the school for a month.

And this is –remember, this is a number of years ago so the member will make a joke about my age, but the fact is nonetheless that we didn't have the Internet, you know, we didn't have Skype, we didn't have any of these resources, and we learned a lot through tha t process beyond the Gestetner about how to use our –what technology we had. In a lot of cases it was just the phone to work to assist our kids in our care.

And I know that teachers are adaptable and resolute in their jobs, and so I thank them and congratulate them, and the staff, of course, at the schools that have been through a really challenging time throughout this COVID pandemic. Mr. Chairperson: There's a member of the oppo- sition staff that wishes to sit up front here. We would invite her up here. No, okay. Mr. Kinew: Will the First Minister undertake to tell us how many days ahead of this past Sunday's announcement the decision was taken to move schools in Winnipeg and Brandon to remote learning? Mr. Pallister: Sure.

So, as I mentioned to the member earlier, the discussions around school closures are serious, they're undertaken, in theory, on a regular basis and then applied only when necessary and to protect the safety and well-being of students and staff. As the case numbers rise, clearly that raises the importance of –or the possibility of a closure being invoked, but there are other measures in the interim period that can also be taken of course, like classes themselves being moved to remote learning as

3060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 opposed to whole schools, and things like that. Interim steps. On the issue of the closures, discussions were ongoing. Dr. Roussin, as the member alluded to announce that school closures was under discussion on the Friday announcement when he let the details come out on the new restrictions. I had announced earlier in the day that Dr. Roussin would be announc- ing new restrictions. Dr.

Roussin then announced those restrictions following his ability to get out of court, which was –impeded his ability to join me earlier in the day, which the member and I might agree on what we think about that court challenge, but we– I would hope we would. In any case, it's a right of people to go to court if they wish and we understand that, accept that. Saturday, the discussions proceeded further. I am told the decision was finalized on the Saturday by my clerk, and it was finalized on the Saturday and an - nounced on the Sunday. So that addresses the timing issue the member was asking. Mr.

Kinew: So, returning to the impact on, you know, families and teachers and others, the children them - selves, teenagers themselves who have to respond to this, why was the decision made on the Wednesday as opposed to Tuesday or as opposed to Thursday? What was the thought process in terms of settling on a two days' notice period? Again, laying out for some high school students three days' notice would allow them to see the teachers in person, I'm sure we could come up with other scenarios where maybe the two -day notice period would have been better. So, can the Premier (Mr.

Pall ister) explain why the decision was made to come out on Sunday and then close the schools, or switch to remote on Wednesday? * (15:20) Mr. Pallister: Yes, a fair question. You know, it's a difficult one to –not just for schools but for other restrictions, right? The restrictions that we've intro - duced have been some of the –some say too severe, some say not severe enough, some say too soon, some say too late.

Nonetheless, overall, according to an Oxford university study –was–granted, that was done two months ago–we have had the toughest restrictions in our province of any province outside of the Atlantic bubble. We've maintained travel restrictions, we've done a variety of things. What we've tried to do is not yo-yo; we've tried to avoid that. But this third wave is here now, and so we intro- duced some tough restrictions three weeks ago, strengthened them again two weeks ago, and then really strengthened them last week.

It is our hope that the consequence of the restrictions, in particular on home gatherings, if I can call them that –and I make it–the member will excuse me if I don't use the right scientific terms I hope; I'll try to communicate as a layperson what our health experts are telling us–but I understand that the gatherings outside are safer than inside, but that either way gatherings in dwellings and gatherings in domestic circumstances, even outside, can lead to transmission and certainly lead to a greater possibility of it.

And so, we introduced some strong restrictions to limit that about two and a half weeks ago and, again, said no to that particular issue entirely here in this past week, and also limited the amount of interactions on– allowed in businesses by reducing that, and capped the amount of people that could be at various gatherings in public spaces and now have reduced that very, very significantly too. And, again, these measures are –have been more restrictive than many other provinces. BC, for example, Premier Horgan, who–we've enjoyed working together.

I can say this is not said as in any way as a criticism of his government –but they made the decision not to restrict retail except to encourage social distancing and that's what they've stayed with. They had much larger impacts in the third wave for a number of weeks before it came to Manitoba. We had restrictions in place on retail, limiting capacity to 50 per cent, then took it down to 33 and a third, then took it down to 25 and now 10. The reason I give this

preamble: the member is to say on each of those as well as with this, we con - sidered the timing and the advance notice issues very seriously. Because there's an impact for families. The education experts in our government told us that we needed a–48 hours to give a window so students would be able to gather up materials, textbooks, the like, from their schools. And I should also mention we've also made the decision to allow for the children of essential workers–front-line workers, for example–to be able to have their children continue in the school if that was necessary to allow wo rkers to be in the workplace.

And numerous other aspects of this decision that were undertaken were undertaken with great seriousness and consideration for the impacts they would have.

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3061 So giving notice in advance is a point the member has made; it's an i mportant one. We tried not to do anything that would add to the already stressful times that Manitobans are experiencing, but we know that these restrictions and 'stewl' 'colsures' are hard on people; we also know why they're necessary. In this time of the onslaught of these variants in particular are multiplying the ability of COVID, we have to multiply our efforts to fight against COVID. Mr. Kinew: So a number of scenarios are brought forward to the Premier (Mr.

Pallister): close schools in Winnipeg and Brandon, close schools across south- ern Manitoba. Why was the decision taken to close schools in Winnipeg and Brandon as opposed to the other scenarios? Mr. Pallister: I just –I'd just appreciate some clarification. Is the member asking why we didn't close schools other than Winnipeg and Brandon, or is he suggesting we shouldn't have closed the schools in Winnipeg and Brandon? And I'm just not quite clear on that. Mr. Chairperson: Could the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Kinew) clarify that, please? Mr.

Kinew: Why did the Premier choose the scenario that we were pursuing this week as opposed to other scenarios that were presented to him? Again, there's a few scenarios presented to the First Minister: close all schools in southern Manitoba, close schools in Winnipeg and Brandon. Why this course of action? Mr. Pallister: This was the course of action recom - mended to us by educational leaders in our province. Mr. Kinew: And which educational leaders were those? Mr. Pallister: Well, members of the health-care team consult regularly with individuals. You want a list of individual names?

I could ask the member if he wants a list of individual names. I'd be happy to–I don't have them with me but I'd be happy to pull them together. And I should mention, as the member knows, that I have always produced materials when I undertake to produce them for the member. And so I will continue to do that. Mr. Kinew: I will undertake that undertaking. Sure. Yes. Mr. Pallister: So I'm glad that the member is–I wasn't aware the member was an undertaker until now but I'm pleased that he's decided to take that on. The reality of this situation is that we do owe a real debt of gratitude to our advisory team.

We have, each of us–the Opposition Leader and I have sincerely thanked our front -line workers on numerous occa - sions and continue to do that, but I think it's fair to say that our folks in the civil service are throughout, whether within core government or in our Crowns or in the so-called MUSH sector deserve a real pat on the back, as well. Hasn't been an easy time for anybody. Our municipal officials have faced some tremendous challenges. At the universities, we know that the administration has faced incredible challenge to staff there, as well.

And so it's not meant to leave anyone out, to say that it's–you know, COVID has been an equal oppor- tunity stress maker for a lot of people throughout our province. And we –I know that the member agrees. And we appreciate the work of those folks. Mr. Kinew: So when did this recommendation come forward to the First Minister? Mr. Pallister: Recommendations, I said earlier, came to our co- ordinating committee on the Saturday and the recommendation was adopted and then made public on Sunday. Mr. Kinew: And why weren't school leaders and educators notified of the decision?

The fact that it happened on a Sunday, parents left in the lurch. They want answers. They can't call the school on a Sunday. Why was the decision made without notifying folks in advance? Mr. Pallister: Yes, I don't know if there's –the member's implying there's a magic day when it's stress-free to close a school and, of course, that's not true. It's–there isn't such a day. Educational leaders throughout the province were notified when the decision was taken.

They knew before it was announced publicly, I understand, so that the information was out there to them and then, of course, it's–becomes a regional responsibility in part, in tandem with Dr. Roussin's announcement –public announcement and the Minister of Education's (Mr. Cullen) announcement to get that word out and give families the time to prepare. Mr. Kinew: So, if the Premier is to believe edu - cational leaders recommended this, the decision came forward on Friday. Why not notice –notify them

3062 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 Friday that this was

an act of consideration, that this was likely to happen? Mr. Pallister: I can only say there's ongoing inter - action and communication between the educational leaders throughout our province and the co-ordinating committee. That dialogue isn't on an ongoing basis. The decision, as I said twice before, wasn't made until the Saturday and then was made public on the Sunday. Mr. Kinew: So what information came available on the Saturday that meant that that decision had to be taken then instead of earlier? Mr.

Pallister: I can get something for the member in writing about the criterial considerations that the com- mittee looks at in respect of this. I'm a layperson. I can only tell them that I would assume that because of increasing presence of CO VID within classes, that there would be a clear indication that some further action would need to be taken. * (15:30) Mr. Kinew: If the Premier (Mr. Pallister) could provide the criteria, but then also what the information was that became available on Saturday, as opposed to Friday or earlier in the week.

Like, what new piece of information came out on Saturday that led to a decision that couldn't have been taken earlier? Mr. Pallister: I've already undertaken to provide the criterial information to the member. I can only say that I don't believe there is a precedent for this situation, at least in modern times. I'm looking at a portrait of a former premier, the Honourable T.C. Norris who, were he alive, might have been a valuable source of some advice to our government because he was the premier during the Spanish flu epidemic. He and maybe his compatriots could have helped us, were they still with us.

We've done our best to learn in what is virtually an unprecedented situation, as every government has, and have certainly taken action with consultative work with our experts that can always be criticized. And it is the job of the member opposite, to some degree, to cast doubt on the decisions that are taken. I can only say that they're not taken lightly, t hey're taken with due consideration, they're taken with an abundance of caution and they are without precedent in the history of our province, at least in modern times. Mr. Kinew: There was a pandemic playbook created coming out of H1N1 in 2009.

It included an assess - ment of the health -care system and the capacity – revisiting of the ICU capacity within that health -care system specifically, the purchase of a stockpile of masks, et cetera. So I don't think it is accurate to say that it's completely without precedent. Perhaps the scale of the public health restrictions, the scale of COVID, is greater than H1N1 was –definitely would grant that – but I don't think we're in a situation where there hasn't been expert advice provided to this government and to previous ones.

But again, you know, I think Manitobans are just wondering, why was this decision so last minute, you know? What was going on within government that led to this decision being forestalled for so long? The case counts were increasing, publicly released data– though it lags considerably what is available to the government–was certainly moving in that decision, and, you know, the Premier continues to cite con- sultation. Every educator we talk to said they were never consulted. Teachers' societies putti ng out press releases. They have no idea what's going on in the machinations of government.

Who are these folks that the government is talking to? What is going on around their Cabinet table? What sort of infighting and wrangling over different scenarios presented to them led to the delay in the announcement that affected so many Manitoba families this week? Mr. Pallister: It's a tangled web the member is trying to weave. I'd like him to go on record and put a date down that he wanted the schools closed before we go any further on this discussion.

Before he disparages any further the input we've received from educational and health-care experts, I would like him to put on record when he thinks the schools should have been closed. If he'll do that, then we can go forward with the discussion and it will have some significant advances. If he won't, then he's simply casting aspersions that I don't think are justified. Mr. Kinew: There's an asymmetry in the information that is available to myself and to the pu blic and the information that the Premier has available to him at his fingertips on an ongoing basis. Provide the model- ling data effective as of today.

Undertake to do that. Provide the projections for case counts effective today. Provide information on I CU projections effective today. Share that information with myself and the people of Manitoba, and I will gladly engage in a free and

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3063 frank discussion. Can the Premier (Mr. Pallister) undertake to do that? Mr. Pallister: I'm not aware of any other premier that has undertaken to offer briefings to opposition leaders. Maybe the member would like to declare for the record when his last briefing took place? Mr. Kinew: So will the Premier undertake to give us that information generated today, later today?

T he reason why I phrase it that way is because, of course, there's a danger that we get projection data, you know, three months from now or whenever the undertakings are returned to, and it's not relevant to the public conversation anymore. So would the Premier undertake to give us a pro- jection–data based on modelling when it comes to ICUs and case counts –later today that he has access to? Mr. Pallister: I'd invite the member to put on the record when his last briefing was. I arrange briefings for him and the non-third party leader to be able to get information.

I did this in spite of the fact that on previous –on a previous briefing session that I offered to these individuals and their critics, apparently someone decided they'd take video of Dr. Roussi n and Lanette Siragusa–I don't know who else was there on behalf of public health–and released that to the media. That wasn't a thing that was done with good faith. Nonetheless, I continued to try to offer information to the member on a timely basis. When was the last briefing that he was given? If he'd put that on the record, then perhaps we can have a further discussion about briefing material. Mr.

Kinew: Why does the Premier refuse to release information to Manitobans that they have paid for that has been generated in their interest? Other provinces have done it. In Ontario, it led to compliance with public health orders and helped them in their fight against the third wave. British Columbia has released a lot of this information as well. It seems as though that would help in the current moment here in Manitoba. So why hide that data from Manitobans? Mr. Pallister: The member's not wanting to reveal when he had his most recent briefing.

He's clearly not wanting to give support to the thesis that we are offer- ing information to him. And it's unfortunate he wouldn't simply put on the record that he had a brief- ing this week –a full briefing, that Dr. Roussin was available to him. But he doesn't want to say that because it doesn't support his imaginary thesis. As far as comments about information, I have been advocating for more information, not less, to be made available, but I do also have tremendous respect for our public health experts in terms of the decisions they make around releasing information.

I can also say that he's blowing smoke when it comes to BC. If he read The Globe and Mail this week, he'd see an analysis by a noted columnist in that paper–an award-winning paper, I might add. I should commend the national journalistic awards this past weekend who cited, I believe, a dozen various report- ers and journalists at The Globe and Mail receiving awards. And congratulations to them. Anyway, this columnist in The Globe and Mail cited the fact that BC was lagging in terms of making information available.

And so this is not true, what he's just asserted –that British Columbia is somehow doing a better job than us at releasing information–at least, according to a well -informed columnist in The Globe and Mail. I can only say that the information ha s–that he's asked for has been released on a regular basis, that it– I understand there is a plan by the health officials to release even more information tomorrow, that that information will be made public as it should be, and that I'm glad of that.

And I' d like the member to acknowledge that I have endeavoured to make sure that he got an–updated information as well, because I have and he knows that. Mr. Kinew: BC's data set, which is published on an ongoing basis, includes information about school transmission. It breaks down where cases are coming in terms of geographic region, in terms of occupation, in terms of workplaces, other sectors. Ontario released projections based on their modelling. This information has never been released pro- actively in Manitoba. It's only been released after the fact in Manitoba.

Manitobans have a right to know this information. Why isn't it released publicly? Mr. Pallister: Well, it's fair–I think it's fair to say that the member doesn't have enough information. It's also fair for him to admit that he's been given the oppor - tunity to get it and to be briefed on it and to question

3064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 senior health leaders on their decisions in respect of releasing information. I have honestly told the member that I have en- couraged more information, not less, to be out there. I know that there are legitimate concerns from our health-care leaders in respect of the potential damage that that might do in some cases. For example, I know that there was some information out early in respect of truckers and then as a consequence, a number of truck drivers were victimized and vilified in a variety of venues across the province.

And that was dis - appointing; it should've been disappointing to all of us. So they saw what happened when people were identified in certain categories or in a certain manner as being exposed to COVID. I think there's –I, personally, think it would be better to have more information out than less, but I stand by the decisions of our health- care leaders in respect of when and how they release that infor - mation. * (15:40) Mr. Kinew: Was there agreement at the Cabinet table on the decision to close schools in Winnipeg and Brandon and switch them to remote learning? Mr.

Pallister: I'm accountable for the decisions that are taken an d I'll continue to be, and so there sometimes is time for full Cabinet deliberation and sometimes there is not time. The nature of the decisions that have been taken throughout this pandemic is that they've followed a variety of different–I can't tell the member there's one formatted discussion process that happens for every single decision.

There have been decisions taken, I would say, into the thousands now, and so this fell into the category of a decision where there was an opportunity for what is called a round -robin approval, or a dis - cussion, but not an actual meeting of Cabinet. Mr. Kinew: Well, I appreciate that insight that, you know, the Premier (Mr. Pallister) offers there. I think it's significant that the Premier puts on the record that the p ublic health decisions are made at the Cabinet level and, you know, eventually fall to him. You know, we've often heard him, throughout the pandemic, say it's up to Dr. Roussin.

But he admits here this afternoon that it's in fact him and the Cabinet that makes the decisions, which I think is significant because, again, there's often questions, you know, on multiple sides, coming from multiple directions when these things happen. But I do think it's important for the Premier to state clearly that it is him and the Cabinet that eventually makes these decisions. And so, you know, that's certainly an important point in public accountability.

So in terms of this decision -making process, and I acknowledge the term round robin, so I don't want to necessarily, you know, misinterpret that, but just –at what point did it become clear to the Premier that this was the important decision to take, to move the schools to the remote learning, you know? And what was it that swayed him? You know, what was that piece of information, what was that argument that he heard that made him decide, yes, I'm going to go ahead with this particular course of action? Mr.

Pallister: Yes, I wouldn't want the member to misunderstand, as he just did demonstrate he has, what I said. I said I was accountable for the decisions– glad to be –that our government is ready to embrace the accountability. I did not say we make all the decisions. He repeated that three times. But I welcome the accountability. I respect our public health leaders. I respect our vaccine team very much, and they are very influential in respect of the decisions we take. They have led the decision-making process.

So I wouldn't want him to misrepresent or mis - understand what I just said, because it could be misconstrued, therefore, that we were–by what he just said–that somehow I or my Cabinet was overruling willy-nilly the recommendations of various health officials, and that's not the case at all. That hasn't been the case throughout the pandemic. We've seen that accusation mad e in other provinces, primarily for political purposes, I think. Nonetheless, it's not an accusation which would bear fruit here in Manitoba. Mr. Kinew: But, just for clarity's sake, who does make the decision on a public health order? Mr.

Pallister: I explained the process as best I can to the member. I've said that I'm accountable for all decisions. I've also said that the health-care leaders of our province are the principal decision- makers in terms of the recommendations that are made. Mr. Kinew: And so, is the Premier asserting that he has never overruled public health advice when it comes to a public health order? Mr. Pallister: I am so asserting. Mr. Kinew: So when was the advice given to make the announcement on Friday evening? When was the

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3065 advice given that that was what was necessary, in terms of new public health orders? Mr. Pallister: As I said three times before, the decision wasn't taken until Saturday, not Friday. Mr. Kinew: See, this is what happens when the Premier (Mr. Pallister) doesn't show up for the an- nouncements on public health: he neglects that there was an announcement of new restrictions on Friday night. When was the decision taken about those restrictions? When was the advice given to him that those restrictions were necessary? Mr.

Pallister: If the member wants to get into personal innuendo, I can get into facts instead. Does the member want to talk about absence from this place or from work? Because if he does, I can go into that in some detail with him, if that's where he wants to go. I've done over a 130 announcements, good and bad. I've been available to the media; they can ask me any question they want. My accountability is well known. He can't even ask–answer a simple question about whether he paid his taxes for 10 years before he got into politics. So if you want to deal with innuendo, keep doing it. I've got facts.

We can go down that road if that's where the member wants to go. Mr. Kinew: Clearly touched a nerve there, Mr. Chair, by reminding the Premier of his absence on Friday night. So I repeat the question: When was the decision taken on those public health orders? When was the advice given to him? Mr. Pallister: I repeat my answer and it is the fifth time, and I'll repeat it again. The decision was taken on Saturday, and the announcement was made by the Education Minister and Dr. Roussin on the Sunday.

On the Friday prior, I made the announcement that public health orders were going to be changed, new restrictions were coming in on Friday morning, at approximately 11:10. Dr. Roussin was unavailable. I prefer that Dr. Roussin make the announcements about public health orders because I believe, quite frankly, that that is the right course of action. We want to encourage people to follow public health orders, and I think it's better to have the senior medical people make those announcements.

I am happy to be accountable for the decisions and recommendations that are made, but we have–and very consciously–trying to make sure that we have as many people follow those public health orders as possible. The member understands the importance of following public health orders, I hope, even though he hasn't always demonstrated that understanding in his behaviour. But the fact remains that Dr. Roussin was unavailable on Friday morning to do the restrictions, I announced they were coming, he came after court– that's, I believe, 6 o'clock–and announced the restrictions.

The decision hadn't at that time been taken on the schools; there was further discussion on that undertaken, and in the next 12–16, 18, 18, 14, I don't know what number of hours –the decision was taken afternoon? Morning or afternoon of Saturday – [interjection] In the morning on Saturday the decision was taken, school officials were notified, they –then was p ublicly announced on the Sunday by the Education Minister and Dr. Roussin. Mr. Kinew: Nobody buys that.

Like, I understand why the Premier is trying to rewrite history–offer his revisionist take here–because obviously was unpopular that he skipped the Fr iday night announcement. So for him to now advance this argument that, you know, dropping a hint in the morn- ing is somehow him making an announcement on public health orders, may kind of meet his own per - sonal needs, but I don't think anyone outside of the Executive Council is going to buy that. Again, the flaw in that argument is why not come at 6 p.m. and make the announcement with Dr. Roussin? Why skip that announcement?

It's an important moment for Manitobans, why not use the Office of the Premier t o persuade them about the severity of the moment, about the urgency around public health orders? Why not use the role to elevate the announcement? Seems like a pretty straight - forward use of the Office of the Premier–a pretty important one–and yet the Premier wasn't there. Why wasn't he? Mr. Pallister: I appreciate that the member wants to give me advice on a variety of things. I announced on the Friday morning our enforcement –stepped-up en- forcement measures.

I also made the announcement about our increas ed penalties for violators of public health orders–I know he's sensitive to that because he himself violated the public health orders. I understand he was given a warning, I understand also his col - league from St. Johns suggested we should throw the book at somebody else; I think she was probably im - plying we should have thrown the book at him as well. * (15:50)

3066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 That being said, I understand his reluctance to accept accountability because I understand him. But I don't understand why he would suggest somehow that he should be lecturing me on setting an example when he himself refuses to do so. Mr. Kinew: Where was he that he couldn't be there at Manitobans' moment of greatest need? Mr. Pallister: Where was the member opposite for the bulk of last summer into the fall? Mr. Kinew: I was in the media in most days, so, do your oppo correctly and you'll find an answer to that question.

We were advocating for paid sick leave prior to the Premier (Mr. Pallister) glomming on to that issue. We were talking about the release of data, which is something that we continue to push for at this late date, and I think, you know, we really started to pick up on the dissatisfaction of Manitobans when we sug- gested that the government should provide COVID updates on the wee kends, too, since COVID doesn't take Saturday and Sunday off. So, where was the Premier this past Friday that he couldn't be there for the announcement with Dr.

Roussin, and why not use the Office of the Premier to help persuade Manitobans about the importance of that moment? Mr. Pallister: I think we touched a nerve with the member opposite because, of course, he doesn't want to share with Manitobans where he was for the bulk of last summer and into the fall. He also doesn't want to share with Manitobans whether, in fact, he revealed his past record, his criminal record, prior to the 2016 campaign. Did he hide from the NDP his criminal record when he was being interviewed as a candidate, for example? So, you know, no–well, I –you know, it's funny.

The member can dish it out, but he can't take it. He uses innuendo but he doesn't like facts. It's a simple question: did the member hide his criminal record from the NDP when he was being interviewed as a candidate? Every candidate is interviewed by a poli - tical party. Any reputable political party would ask questions about the candidate to know what their background was. Did he hide his criminal record from the NDP prior to running in 2016? He ran against two women of colour in Fort Rouge–two women of colour. There is zero reference in his book.

His book, the reason I hide, contains no reference. [interjection] He can laugh it off, he can–[interjection] See, he's trying– Mr. Chairperson: Order. Order, please, gentlemen. Let's try to keep whoever has the floor, let them speak. Mr. Pallister: You know, the member wants to dish it out, but he can't take it here, okay? So, the member claims that he was accountable in his book. I've read his book. I've never seen me and I used quite so frequently, but I do know that in his book he references one criminal incident and misrepresents what actually happened. It is most certainly true.

In fact, there is only one incident–and if he wants me to get into all of the various things that were omitted from the book, I can. I didn't come here wanting to do that, but if the member–I did not come here wanting to do that, but if the member wants to launch into personal attack, if that's what he's choosing to do–he has innuendo; I have facts. So he can keep going down this road if he wishes, but I want him to know that it was not my intention coming here today to do that.

It was my intention to do my best to answer his questions, and if he wishes to go on personal attack with innuendo, with false accusation, I will go on facts–[interjection]–well, the member–[interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would like a little bit of respect here for the Chair so I can hear what's going on. I appreciate that everybody has–will have the ability to have the floor. The Leader of t he Official Opposition (Mr. Kinew). Mr. Kinew: Yes, thanks. Let's please continue down this road. Again, the question is, where was he?

Where was he on Friday night that he couldn't be there at the announcement? Mr. Chairperson: The honourable First Minister–oh, sorry–Leader of the Official Opposition. Mr. Kinew: So yes, let's continue down this road. So, again, why was the Premier not present at the Friday announcement about public health orders? Where was the Premier that he couldn't be there to use hi s office to help convince Manitobans about the importance of this moment? Mr. Pallister: So I'm not going to give the member a promotion and put him in charge of my life. I am going to leave that to my wife and my friends and

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3067 people I respect. I'm not going to give him that privilege. But I am going to tell him that if he keeps going down this road, I'm going to ask him more questions which he has not answered, and I've asked him one. I've asked him one question. Now, he's failed to answer that question, which proves to me he's not interested in being accountable at all.

If you –the fact of the matter is it's a relevant question because every candidate in every election should be accountable for presenting their real record to the electors, and every party should be accountable to making sure their candidates have done that. And so I'm just curious, that's all I'm asking, because he did run against two fine people who did put their record out there, an honest record, and he did not do that. And so I'm simply asking did he fail to provide his information to the NDP before he ran, or did he provide it and somehow they decided not to release it?

Like, it's one or the other of those things. As far as my time is concerned, I can only say to the member that on Friday I did an announcement of some significance, I think, to Manitobans, which was to make sure that people follow the public health orders by adding deterrents and penalties, strength- ening what were already, I think, very strong mea - sures that we've taken to make sure that Manitobans follow those orders.

The two major areas of focus that, if we followed them as people –and we have in the past in the vast majority–that we need to take to shorten this third wave and they are to follow public health orders and to get vaccinated. And if we can all encourage people to do those two things then we have a good chance, I think, to decrease the time period it will take to get our lives back. And if we fail to do that, then we are going to guarantee that the s uffering we're seeing now will continue and persist.

And so Friday, in a significant announcement, I think, we strengthened the penalties–doubled the pen- alties, in fact, for repeat offenders who would violate. So when, for example, there was no penalty–there was a warning for the member opposite when he engaged in breaking the health rules, so I don't know how you double that penalty. Give him two warnings. I don't think that's going to help. But for people who received a fine for a violation of the publ ic health orders, they were told on Friday last, in that press conference, that fine will now double.

We hope that that works to assist in deterring that behaviour. We've also issued more tickets for our size than any other province, and we are –we've upgraded the number of people who are involved in enforcement, and I thank all of those who are. These aren't easy jobs, you know, it's not easy to go and give someone a fine. Talk to anybody in the city police or in the RCMP. They know it's a difficult thing to do to enforce the laws. And for many of our folks, they haven't had to do this kind of work before. They've maybe inspected a boiler and given a warning.

It's not quite the same thing to go out and tell a person who's organizing a group gathering tha t they shouldn't do that. It's difficult. And also I know from some of our dialogue with the police services that it's also a difficult call on whether you wade into the middle of a public protest and start handing out tickets right in the middle of it because you might accelerate the risks to others in the area and that type of thing. So I know that our officials have told me that there have been other measures they've taken.

For example, at the protest down at The Forks a couple of weeks ago, I think there had been 20- some tickets already issued but only two at the time, if I remember–I'm going–the member will excuse me, I'll get the details if he wishes, but I think it's about that number. That–they didn't give out a lot of tickets at the time and so some might argue, well, they aren't really deterring it if they're not, you know, given a ticket right then. But I think the reluctance on the part, I think, in that case was Winnipeg police were principally the ones doing the enforcement.

They were conc erned that if they waded into the crowd and started with the tickets that there'd be–it might provoke some violent response. So that was the, yes, that was the concern. Anyway, the point is it wasn't a small announce - ment on Friday. It was an important a nnouncement; undertook to do it, and Dr. Roussin did go ahead and announce the restrictions later in the day. I've been part of all but, I think, two of those announcements throughout the entire pandemic. That's –there's ful - some responses I can hope the member would like to– * (16:00) Mr. Chairperson: The First Minister's time has expired. Mr.

Kinew: So, the facts are this: the Premier (Mr. Pallister) was not at the Friday night

3068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2021 announcement, which was significant because, again, it affects the rights of Manitobans. It's also significant because the announcement on Friday night included a question- and-answer period which Dr. Roussin was left alone to respond to ques - tions, whether they were clarification questions or accountability questions. Earlier this afternoon, the Premier (Mr.

Pallister) said that he is accountable for the public health orders, so why was the Premier not there when the public health orders were announced so that he could be asked to account for them, so that he could be asked to answer accountability questions? Where was he and why wasn't he there to be ac- countable for the public health orders that he's ac - knowledged today he should be held accountable for? Mr. Pallister: Again, why did the member hide his criminal record prior to the 2016 campaign?

His issues of accountability the member's raising are coming from a glass house and the member's throwing stones at me but it –he's in a dangerous predicament because the fact of the matter is I've done over 125 press conferences, be en available to answer all questions from the media and make myself available on an ongoing basis, but I most certainly would, if there were questions about my record, I would answer them and I have. But the member appears unwilling to put the same standard on himself, yet he is trying to attack me today. I don't think that's entirely fair. I think it's probably a little unfair.

So again, I ask the member: did he hide his criminal record from the NDP when he was audition- ing to be a candidate in the 2016 election or not? If he didn't, he should say so. And if he did, he should say that now. Mr. Kinew: So, this afternoon, the Premier says he's accountable for the public health orders, and yet he refuses to show up to answer questions about them. And now he refuses to answer the question asked several times about why he simply didn't show up.

The thesis that a lot of Manitobans are circulating right now about why he doesn't show up is he only likes to be there for the good news announcements and he never wants to show up for the bad news announce- ments. So I'd like to flesh that out a little bit more. A few weeks prior, there was a reference in a public health press conference to stronger restrictions coming later that week on a Friday. Instead, Friday came and went without an announcement of new public health restrictions. Instead, we saw that the Premier visited his hometown of Portage la Prairie.

So did the Premier skip town because he didn't want to have to make a bad news announcement on that Friday? Mr. Pallister: You know, the member's hidden his record from his own party, apparently. If he hadn't, he'd say so. His own colleagues have to ask the ques- tion, what else has he hidden? I've been out there throughout this entire pan- demic. Press –you don't dodge anything at a press conference; the member knows that.

The media can ask any question they want and there's no such thing as an easy press conference and a hard press con - ference; they're all accountability sessions and I've done over 125 of them so far. So all I can say to the member is he's wrong on this thesis. The fact of the matter is I made an announcement not only about warnings –and I should mention that May 3rd to 9th–97 warnings, 50 $1,296 tickets, nine $298 tickets, one $5,000 ticket. That's enforcement; that's what we're doing. We take very seriously these health orders that the member apparently does not take seriously, and that is unfortunate as well.

I can also share with the member that our law enforcement officials have given per capit a more tickets than most of the other provinces studied in this report that I have. I can share with the member; it's not a secret report, about triple the rate of most other provinces studied. I want to be sure that we were doing the right things in terms of enforcement, so– because I understand that it isn't just health restric - tions, it's the willingness of people to follow them that matters. That's why I did the announcement on Friday morning concerning enforcement, because enforce - ment matters.

As much as the member may not be - lieve it, it does help. And it is helping now and I thank the people that are doing it. I also announced, in that press conference, some- thing else that I think that is pretty significant and important, which is something that thi s government has fought for from the get-go, and that the NDP were silent on, contrary –for a long time –contrary to what the member put on the record earlier, and that is paid sick leave. And we made an announcement about a program for paid sick leave that we consider to be the strongest such program in the country right now.

May 13, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3069 Now, it may be that other provinces will follow our lead. I know that some others may be talking about doing something else. BC just came out with a good program. I applaud Premier Horgan for his leadership in advancing paid sick leave. I did my best to help him. We, together, lobbied other premiers to join in calling on the federal government to introduce a national pandemic paid sick leave program. We did that sincerely together with the hopes that they would. The federal program has some flaws in it.

Premier Horgan announced that, I think, day before yesterday when he announced his own plan. These flaws are not limited to but include no specificity as far –or clarity as far as whether a person could go and get a vaccine and actually have that leave paid to get that vaccine. We've asked, and I hope that the Opposition Leader will support this, that we have that legislated. We've also increased the amount –or, introduced an amount of pay that people can get for a variety of reasons. And it doesn't –the problem with the federal program is it isn't clear on this. It's confusing.

As members know, if they've talked to their constituents, there are a lot more questions than answers about the qualification aspects of the federal plan. What it does, long term, is, I think, a sincere effort, and I thank the federal government for this. On a variety of fronts they've been open, for the most part, co-operative in terms of a variety of endeavours we've pursued together or separately, in communicating. But on this one, they undertook to do something they did not end up doing. And that's unfortunate, because the premiers were united in supporting this.

I was really pleased when the Opposition Leader stood up and supported this effort as he did on behalf of his party. I think it was an important thing to do. I was very pleased when the opposi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	42-3-62b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	42nd 3rd hansardpdf 62b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1aab3c1510993f864986f1f191e863d6e23732d4

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