~ay 1? 1977 . -' Tape 2570 RH - 1 :':-:e Ecuse :!et c.~ : 0 ::JO a.::1. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ ORAL Qu'"ESTIONS : MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: It never fails! !Jn Fednesdays '' e are an hour and a half getting to _questions and Thursdays 't.;e are five minutes. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier arising out of the meeting held in Ottawa yesterday of the ministers of Mines and Energy. Tney may have different titles from province to province, ~ut in our Province it is the ~1inister of ~fines and Energy.

Can the Premier tell us whether this administration here have supported the request that has been put for~ard for a higher price of oil with the resulting increase which will be passed on~of course~to the consumers of - I understand given a $2.00 rise in the price of oil, twelve to fourteen cents a gallon on gasoline and about twelve to thirteen cents a gallon on heating oil - ~ave the administration supported that? ~. SPEAKER: Tne hon. Premier. PRE}ITER MOORES: Not that position, Mr. Speaker, no. We have supported the position that oil and gas have to go up in time.

I do not think there is any question about that. None of us want to see it, but that is the worldwide and the national situation 't.;here in time we have no choice. We would like to see it done slower than is being proposed by the Federal Government and some of the other provinces at this time. We would like to see it in smaller amounts in being proposed, bu t the fact is that we do support the position that it does have to go up in time. It is unfortunate, out that is just the way it is. MR. ROBERTS: A supplemen~ary, Sir. MR. SPEA...'<ER: A supplementary. MR.

ROBERTS: If our minister, the gentleman from Green Bay(Mr. Peckfcrd) 1 has not supported the $2.00 well head increase with the result it is passed through the consumers, what is our position? There has been no

:1ay 1? 1977. -- l Tape 25 70 RE - 2 ~. ROBE?-.TS: statement of which I am aware of what the government of this Province have adopted as a position,I£ they do not ~upport the $2.00 rise or : the fourteen cent gas and twelve cent fuel oil rise, what do they support? .MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the only thing we support is the principle. We have not gone in and said it should be fifty cents or it should be $1.00 or it should be $1.25. · we were hoping at these meetings to get a concensus of the majority, to get it as low as possible.

And that is T.o7hy 'li'e went •..;ith the position we had. He do not have any control over what the price is going to be at the well head. That · is between the Federal Government and the province involved. And the Federal Government can unilaterally decide \.;hat that price is going to be. They asked us to come for consultation, anQ in t he process of that consultation we had hoped to get it as low as possible. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile followed by the han. gentlema..~ from Baie Verte-l•ibi te Bay and then the hon. gentleman for Terra Nova. -:-m. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice, Sir. Would the mi~ister indicate to the House just precisely what is happening now in connection with the ongoing investigations into the gear replacement scandal in this Province? XR. HIOQ-f..AN: Mr. Speaker, I have reported to the House on several occasions that the investigation into allegations with respect to the Gear Replacement Programme has been ongoing by the R.C.H.P. and by the Newfoundland Constabulary. As their reports come in the Crown prosecuters under the D irecto~ o~ ?u~lic Prosecutio~s revie~·7 them very carefully.

And when they are finally satisfied that all the evidence that is possible or available has been accumulated they then make a decision as to what charges, if any, they should take. And this I understand they are doing ver; assiduously and some charges have been laid

~ay l2, 1977. Tape 2570 RH - 3 ~·fR. 'SIC}C·!...-\..'i: before the courts. I most assuredly could not go furth'er than that, any state~ent .

: ~i.e:y 12 , 19 77 Tape 2571 lb-2. :rn. . :TL~Y : give us an updating on this situation and tell the House ~nether the CID have been either pulled off of these investigations or if they are still continuing to investigate any of these cases? ~ot the RG::1P now, the CID. As of this moment-. are th~y currently investigating any of these cases or have they been pulled off the cases? XR. SPE...U<.ER: Hon. minister. XR. HI CK}f_<\..'l' : If they have it is not to my knowledge. I ~ill repeat that as of March 29, the :ie~foundland Constabulary had b•o cases left to investigate.

One was near completion and the other ~•as to take several months. So I assume that the one, the case that would take several months,h~s not been completed. ~1R.~EA'"'ZY: A supplementary question, Hr. Speaker. :rR. SPE.A..lZER: A supplementary. ~1R. :lEARY: :'Io, I cannot quesi:ioc:. t:Ce ::J.i~1ister's 2.:lS" . .;rer. But in the ansNer the minister said he assumes.

Hell, Sir, I am asking the minister a simple question:. .. yes or no: Are the CID, are the members of the CID currently investigating any of these cases or have they been pulled off the investigation, yes cr no. :1R • HI Cl01A .... 'l' : I do not know. ~·:!R • :lEARY : ~~ell find out. The minister should have the information for the House. :ffi.. SPE...\..'<.ER: Order,please! Order~please! The hon. gentleman cannot debate the answer or reply of the hon. minister. I apologize to Your Honour. Could I ask the minister a similar question in connection with the RC~?

Are they investigating any of these cases currently or are the cases fi:;.ished? What is the situation? Could the minister give us - if the minister does not have the information could the minister get the i~forrnation for tomorrow's session of the House?

Ta':>e 2571 !..3- 3 . a couple of years . !1R. SPEAK?:R: Hon. minist e r. ~ffi . ~IC~l~~ : The macte r is not dragging on ~~ . ~EARY : I c has ~ ee~ dragging on . ~ . :!ICK:!..-\.'i : There are ::1ore !:Jan-hours spent on t~ese invescigacions than any invescigation char: I am aware of in the las t number of yea r s . I do :<ot - (Ir.a:..!di:,le) . ~ . H!C~!AN : I said :he nuoo e~ o: oan -hocrs .

I co not ~ow Nhac partic ular police of fi ce r s are on : here today or noc ,a:1d I c~n a ss c~e , :.~ere is no 2roblem : or ~e to get the info ~a:ion.I sbpl:: as~< the Di reccor of ?uolic ?rosecut:ion . ?.e · . .;ill not have i t by ::o!!lorro -., iJecause he '..rill ha ve co find out . 3ut I ,.;ill :tot se-: ti:a unc i l corr:orrm.; ::1o:-ni:1g. 3ut in any eve ~c let ~e assu r e this ::ouse : hat .;.;hace ve r invescigato -r,.: pr ocedures arc: :lecess a r:; ::::e:; zre being ca ::-:-~ ed out: y

:May 12, 19 77 Tape 2572 as quickly as possible,A~d I repeat, .Mr. Speaker, t~at t~ere are r~sidents of this Province who are presently before the courts and there is nothing more inappropriate and more improper than to start giving details of investigations that may in any way involve people who are standing charge on any offence no matter what it is, the simplest or the most serious. :MR. ~ARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: I have indicated that I will recognize the hon. gentleman from Baie Verte-White Bay. JM- 1 ~fR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

I want to ask the minister whether or not he has been briefed or whether he has done any research himself into the medical research carried out on asbestos workers in Tetford Mines, Quebec; Jefferson City, Quebec; Asbestos City, .Quebec) Southern California and in ~anufacturing plants in Europe and America? Is the minister going to answer the question? MR. ~OLLI~S: I •ill send over an atlas so the hon. member can find some more names. MR. RIDEOUT: find it-.

MR. 3PEAKER: Order,please: The hon. member ~~y not debate , JUt ~a y ask questions and then if the han. minister answers he may answer but that is as far as it can go. The hon. Minister of Health. ~. COLLI~S: Mr. Speaker, there has been an untold number of discussions with people in other Provinces, with the Federal C~vernment,in terms of trying to come to grips with the possibility of some hazards in terms of health in areas where asbestos mining is done. So I indicated yesterday, one of the better authorities, one of the top authorities, in the name of the Haunt Sinai University in the States and Dr.

Selikoff ~ are currently preparing no doubt their report. And I must refrain, Mr. Speaker, from saying anything else about this until we get Dr. Selikoff's report. The Steelworker's Union in Baie Verte saw fit~and rightly so!to engage what they thought was the best possible group to look at the situation in Baie Verte:J and after all, ar. Speaker,

:fay 12, 19 77 Tape 2572 JM- 2 ~!R. COLLI:l'S: that is the area whic~ ~e are concerned about directly in this Province. And until that report is received there is not much more that I can say about it. MR. RIDEOlJT: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. member for B.aie Verte-Hhite Bay. MR. R1DEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I am not questioning the minister on the contents of Dr. Selikoff's report. The minister has indicated that he has some kno~ledge of asbestos research in other areas.

Could the minister tell the Rouse what his conclusions would be regarding the potential hazard to health based on his knowledge of research carried out in other areas of those who work in asbestos mines? No? A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Speaker, if the minister will not answer that question would he take to the air~?YS again this evening and try to repair the insinuations that he put on yesterday evening that there is no problem anywhere with asbestos dust on one of those classic CBC interviews? ~!R. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what is rubbing the hon. member wrong this morning.

I did not t~~e to the airways yesterday at all. \ MR. RIDEOu"T: You have been rubbing a lot of people wrong. MR. COLLI~:t'S: The answers which I gave were in response to han. b · '"'"' t t' · t.; es are I do not t-now I have my or. .. u. suspicions. mem ers_ oppos~te. ~ua ne~r mo ~v ~ · I did do a short interview with the people from CBC, I believe it was. I am not sure if it was CBC or CJON. And in response to a question from the interviewer · I said that the fact that Dr.

Selikoff has not written his report to us yet,and just about a year has now elasped,would indicate to me that chances are,you know,the problem at Baie Verte is not as bad as we thought it was. That is what I said. MR. RIDEOUT: A further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. The hon. member for ~aie Verte-wnite Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Would the minister tell us this then; does the minister have any reason to believe that there is any difference in the asbestos

Hay 12, 1977 Tape 2572 Jm - 3 ~!R . RID::otrr : operati on at Baie Verte than that i~ Jefferson City o r Asbestos City or anywhere else? w~ are not in Jefferson Citr. MR . COLLINS: ~ . RIDEOUT: You do not even know abou t it, do you? Come over~ b oy, and start r eading . I do thi nk I will recognize t he hon . member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A q uest ion t o the ~linis ter of Manpower and Indu s trial ~elations . I wonder if t he minister is in a position to tell the Rouse tvhat rate of pay the :::cii a ~ o r for the ila t erford dispu t e will be receiving? Hr .

Speake r, I have no idea . -It is agreed on by bo t h parties . Re would not be paid under the Depar t ~ent of ~anpower and Industrial Relat i ons . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . meober for LaPoile followed by the hon . member for Bellevue . ~ . ~EARY: ~r. Speake r, could r:he ~(in ister of Public Wo rks and Serv ices , Sir, indica t e t o the House if there is anybody representing y

~ay 12, 1977. Tape 2573 RH - 1 ~. NEARY: contractors doing any ~vork presently in the Carbonear Hospital as a hangover from the construction period? Is there anybody there now stil1. working in connection with the construction of the hospital~ NR. SPEA..'tCER: The hon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: Not to my knm.;ledge, Mr. Speaker. But I will undertake to get the information. Undoubtedly if the hon. member asked the question he has got a company in mind dow~ there. MR. NEARY: Oh yes, yes. XR. ROUSSEAU: I am not aware of any. But there may well be some dow~ there. But I will take it as notice. ~R.

NEARY: When can I get the answer. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~R. ROUSSEAU: I will give it to the han. member today unofficially or tomorrow in the House, whichever the han. member prefers. HR. NEA.."l\Y: Okay, that will be fine. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated I recognize the hon. ·member for Bellevue. Then I will recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR • CALl.AJ.."l : Hr. Speaker, about a month or more ago I asked the Minister of Tourism a question regarding the hunter safety programme. And the minister answered that I had asked a timely question because an announcement would be made in ~.;o or three days.

And that was over a month ago. I am wondering can the minister enlighten th'e House regarding the hunter safety programme? ~(R. SPEA..T(ER: The hon. minister. ~R. T. RICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I should apologize to my hon. friend. I had good intentions at that time of making a statement -:.;rith regards to hunter training safety. I should have told my friend that there has been a change of heart as to the timing of that statement. And the situation right nm.; is that we do not want to make a staterr.ent on

~ay 12, 1977. Tape 2573 RB - 2 }fR. HICKEY : hunter training safety which may well confuse some of the hunters in the Province or people who were in the habit of hunting to the effect that they might be required this year to participate in hunter training safety. So what we plan on doing is waiting until the licenses are drawn and then immediately after that announcing our programme for hunter training safety. It should be approximately July month, Hr. Speaker. SOME RON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! XR. SPEAKER: ?:1R. T. LUSH: The han. member for Terra ~ova. }fr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Manpower.

From time to time that I have been hearing by _the media of high unemployment in certain districts in certain areas, I wonder if the minister can tell the House ~.;hether or not the government have ~oni~cred or tried to attempt to find those areas that are nest affected by the unemployment right now? X'R. SPEAKER.: }fR, ROUSSEAU: The han. minister. Yes we have, }fr. Speaker. \ole have a couple of areas in which we have attempted in a joint programme with the Federal Government, a Federal-Provincial programme, the Community Employment Strategy Programme.

We have singled out two areas, the area on the Port au Port Peninsula and an area in Southern Labrador, Southern Coast of Labrador. And we are taking a look at how this programme develops and hopefully ~.;e can extend it with the co-operation of the Federal Government into .other areas. So we have indications of profiles of the high unemployment areas, and my own area being one in concentration in Western Labrador. And of course, as the han. member from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir(Mr. Simmons) mentions~there is quite a bit of unemployment dow~ in that area and there are pockets. But we are trying to - AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible.

~!ay 19 77. 12' Tape 2573 R..'l - 3 ~. ROUSSEA'U: Stephenville, of course, you know, every area has - but we are attempting in two strategic places now in a joint federal-provincial effort in, as I say, Port au Port and the Southern Coast of Labrador to attempt to attack this. }fR • S P E.A.KE R : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: A question for the ~inister of Justice in his Government House Leader capacity. There has been some discussion about amending st~~ding orders to change the procedure at the beginning of each day's session to put ques~ion Period first.

Can the minister tell us whether this is going to be done, or we on this side think it ought to be done. It would simply mean Oral Questions would be the first order called by the Speaker and t.hen the other orders -w·ould be called subsequently. And I think there are obvious advantages, both from the Opposition side and from the government side,and thus it is in the House's interest. C&~ the minister tell us whether this is going to be done?

His colleague, the acting House Leader, the Minister of Mines and Energy~ undertook a week or so ago to make some announcement or to make some statement but nothing has been done as yet. A.t.'l' RON. MEXBER: (Inaudible.) MR. ROBERTS: Well we got more information than than now. MR. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, tell him to answer that question. MR. SPEAKER: I do not know if there is going to be a reply. XR. HICIOL<\J.'l': Ron. gentlemen are hopping up and down. It is part of participa _cion I T.-1ant to move rather slowl-y in rising. ~!r. Speaker, it is true there have been some

~~ay 12, 19 77 Tape 2574 ~!R. RICK:LU: dicussio~s I gather across the House and within this House.I ~~not in a position to indicate at this time but it has some merit i:: putting the Quest inn Period in the beginning, But I think ~•e also have to look at the other problem that frou tiue to time arises a.J.C: that is we have had days- today now is an exceptionally good day from the point of vie•,.; of getting '\.rork done in the House - there have been days r,1hen we have gone t•,.;o and a half hours and never gotten to Orders of the Day. ~IR. ROBERTS: Those are the most useful days we have had. ~-iell, ~!r.

Speaker, if these have been the most useful days we have had it does not say much for this very serious debate that we have been having the last several days,you knm.;. A supplementary question, ~r. Speaker. J}f - 1 ~fR. SPL\KER: A supplementary, the han. member ·far Bellevue. r r..,rill recognize the han. member for LaPoile for a supplementary later. ~~-- CALLAN: ~-fr. Speaker, I am r..:rondering can the Rouse Leader suggest what time the committee, the standing orders co~.ittee that cvas set up last year on ~!ay 21, 1976, r.vhat time that committee Hill meet?

The Chairman of that committee is the han. member for ~ilbride. Is he still a member of the House? Has he resigned? Does he intend to call this meeting, or what? ER. SPE.P.KER: Order,please! Order! I consider the latter part of the question somewhat argumentative. The han. member for LaPoile on a supplementary. ~-. ~lEARY: Yes, ~~r, Speaker, I would like to - The '.vhole purpose, Sir, of moving the r~uestion Period right up in the beginning of this session of course ~.;as to accommodate the televising of the u-ral l;'.Jesticn ?eriod.

Th2t is how the thing was brought about and the press gallery have written both han. gentlemen - I do not kno¥7 really 'lvho to put this question to, the Government House Leader or the Leader of the Opposition. I have responded to my - ~. ROBE:EITS: ~~R. ::-.lEARY: It just might be that they sent me a copy of it. Well~the Opposition Eouse Leader,but I am sure that

~~ay 12, 1977 Tape 257 4 J}~ - 2 the han. gentleman, the Leader o£ the Opposition,could speak for his caucus or have things changed since I \vas there last? Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Government House Leader to respond to the question and ask him if unanimous agreement- I know I have agreed~I have written the secretary of the press gallery, to having the Oral Question televised in the House- has the han. minister responded on behalf of his caucus on this matter yet? ~. SPEA.ctCER: The han. ~inister of Justice. That is a very, very provocative question, Hr.

Speaker, the first part of it L~ particular .But I cannot speak. The caucus has not made a decision on it. That is the long and-the short of it. ~!R. NEARY: The Leader of the Opposition - ~!R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Hindsor-Buchans· followed by the hon. mewber for Fogo and Burin-PlacentiR West. ~!R. FLIGHT: ~<r. Spea:-:.er-, rJ.y question is for cf ,, __ .,....,....,'1" ... 0,_ _ . .::.:...J.~v.li..__ and Industrial Relations. HR.

RIDEOUT : I would like to see 'Harold' on televised Question ?ericd. ~-- FLIGHT: 1.Jould the :ninister inforl!l the House tvhat time the hearings with regards to the \.Jorkman 's Compensation Board will be completed a."1d a report submitted to the minister? And while I am on my feet, as to ivhat time i?e can expect some changes made or r..;hatever ·..;e can expect as a result of those hearings from the Department of ~~anpower? MP SPEAKER: The han. Yinis ter of Yanpo"~<rer and In dust rial Relations. i-~-. P.D'CS SEAL': As I understand it, ~'[r.

Speaker, the hearings have nmv been completed and the committee tvas in the process the past t1,'0 or three ,,reeks I think of getting their thoughts together so that they could ~mt them dotm in Hriting. I am hoping maybe late this !Clan th or next month at the latest to have that report. And of course that report ~vould be available for the House as soon as '-'e studied it in the department shortly thereafter. So I 't.;ould antici[Jate •.vithin the next t"t.;o '-<'eeks to six w-eeks. Sometime between the niddle of ~!ay and the last ·,reek of June.

~!ay 12, 19 77 ~. SPEf..KER: ~ffi.. FLIGHT: Tape 2574 ~- 3 A supplementary, the original questioner. ~.Jould the minister indicate to the House, vle kno•• the hearings have gone on in most of the L,dustrialized towns in ~ewfoundland and ~•e also know or some of us know that there has been some recommendations for some drastic ~~anges in the Workman's Comrensation Act particularily with regards to industrial diseases and to compensation for sure. Is it the minister's intention - Have they already decided that there will be change in these areas if the recommendations are there?

If the reco~~endations for a change are there~is it the minister's intention to make those changes? XR. SPEAKER: The han. ~iinister of ~1anpower and Incus trial ?_elations. MR . ROUSSEAU: Obviously, ~r.

Speaker, I cannot say there are going to be any changes until I see the report~but if there are ite~s in that report that govern~ent agrees vith I am sure government tvill nove especially in the area of occupational health and safety~and obviously each of the five year periods in which this report has been done that there always have been some moves that government have made and certainly this would not be an exception~of course. As I say, I cannot give the undert~~ing until I see the report but it is not the government's intention to undertake a report like that every five years and then file it somewhere. :-m..

SPEA-1\.ER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPLUN HDl"SOR: ~'!:r. Speaker, I have a question for the ~tinister of Fisheries. Some time ago the minister made an announcement about the down payments requirec

~lay 12, 1977, Tape 2575, ?age l anb CAPT. \E:JSOR: on new boats would be ~educed from 10 per cent down to 5 per cent. Can the minister tell the House if this is now in effect? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. ~~. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, it will be in effect within a few weeks. HR. SPEAKER: I have indicated I 'tlould recognize the hon. the member for Burin - Placentia \•Test. HR. Cfu~NDIG: Mr.

Speaker, I was to direct my question to the person >~ho occupies that empty seat but I will now direct it to the Minister of Fisheries~ Can the minister give me any information as to if there will be, \.;hether he is expecting there will be, or he has discussed, or if there has been any negotiations going on or any talk between his cauc~s and himself, or his Cabinet and hiwself, about the building of further draggers for the fishing fleet of Newfoundland or the reinforcing of the present fleet?

I ask this question arising from the fact that we have several da~aged this year trying to penetrat2 the ice to secure fish - if there is anything going on or if the Premier has turned completely around and has given up the idea of increasing the dragger fleet? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. H.R. ~'l. C.Z\RTER : Mr. Speaker, that is- a question that will probably take a little while to answer, and if the House would ..... perml._ ne - It is worth your while. ~· 1R. W. CARTER: Yes, a lot of consideration is being given to the building of a trawler fleet, to build up the tra1,.;ler fleet.

Our ambitio n , of course, and our objective is to replace fo reign effort with Canadian effort, fishing effort. Our objective is to increase

May , '"I .LL., 1977, Tape 2575, Page 2 -- apb ~·1R. ~·l. c.:;.RTER: the present fleet and to replace ships that within a few years will be probably ready for the scrap pile. At the-present tL~e in Newfoundland there are somethinq like eiaht:v-!::>=>v.o.!'l deep-sea ships. Twenty-seven are side trawlers with ~n average of fifteen years. These ships are pretty well past their labour. The others are averaging eight years, eiqht years old~which means that within a few short years all of these ships will have to be replaced. We have a meeting arranged with the industry including Mr.

Morrow, I think, who is the president or vice-president of National Sea. President. MR. vi. C&"qTER: President of National Sea. ~1y colleague the Minister of Industrial Development and I met \vi th hiL-n last week and '"e talked about setting up a meeting of the ~'lewfoundland industry, the plant ovmers, the ship mmers, including Mr. Harrow, with a view to establishing certain guidelines with respect to the replacing of their fleet. We will be making, indeed we have rnade representation to Ottawa to have that subsidy reinstated on new ships.

We are also in the process now of talking to Ottawa with respect to ice reinforced ships and maybe build a prototype. Because as han. gentlemen suggested, in constructing a new fleet some thought will have to be given to having ice reinforced ships, certainly a certain number of them. But all of these things, Xr. Speaker, are very much in rnind and are being considered by my colleagues and myself and we will take what action will be necessary to ensure that the fleet is replaced and indeed expan.ded.

May 12, 1977, Tape 2575, Page 3 -- acb MR. SPEAKER: The han. tte ~enber for LaPoile followed by the han. gentleman for Bellevue. HR. NEA...'R.Y: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister oEFisheries, Sir, and I l\rould like to ask the minister if there have been any consultation between the minister and the a~~inistration here and the Government of Canada in connection with changing the salmon regulations ne~t year, not this year but next year, changing the salmon regulations restricting the amount of tine that the salmon fishermen 1vould be allm-,red to fish, especially along the S.outhwest coast?

And if so, would the minister spell out what it is the federal goverr£,ent is trying to do in the way of conservation and changing the salmon regulations next year, if the-minister knows anything about it~ I1R. SPEAKER: HR. W. CARTER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, as the han. gentleman knows, the establishment of salmon licencing regulations is a federal responsibility. Certainly it is one that we do have some -interest in because there are a lot of problems being encountered by fishermen around the Province. During my fifteen regional meetings, I

~1ay 12; 1977, Taoe 2576, Page 1 apb ~1R. C.~'\TER: think that was one of the things that ca~e to the forefront more than any other single subject, the matter of licencing. Our officials are almost constantly in touch with Ottawa, talking to their counterparts here in the Province, bringing to these people some of the problems we are encountering and some of the complaints we are hearing from fishermen. Certainly I am not ~Yishing to pass the buck on this. Ottawa, of course, does a~~inister the licencing regulations.

I do not think anybody can deny the fact that regulations are necessary and indeed, licencing is necessary, but to the extent that they are regulating the industry is something else. I have my own views on that. HR. cJEARY: HR. SPEAKER: ~1R. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. A supplementary.

Could the minister tell t~e House then - I gathered something there in the minister 1 s answer - if the Goveri1..ment of Canada ~vould make any drastic changes in the commercial saL~on fishery in this Province,or any other aspect of the fishery~Hithout prior consultation with the minister and with the aaministration of this Province? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. ~1R. \•7. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, the minister in Ottawa and I have an excellent relationship. There is constant dialogue between us and the officials of our deparb~ent, and I cannot for the life of me imagine Mr.

LeBlanc even thinking about making such changes 1n the Province without consulting his counterpart in the Province. I ~vould certainly expect his officials who, I might add, have an excellent relationship with our our officials as \vell, I am sure they would be in contact with our people and between us we would work something out.

May 12, 1977, Tape 2576, Page 2 -- apb ORDERS OF THE DAY HR. SPEAKER: Order 6, the adjourned debate on motion 6 . The hon. the member for Port au Port adjourned the debate. MR. HODDER: SOME HON. HEHBERS: MR. HODDER: !1r. Speaker, Hear, hear! - the first thing I would like to do is pay a tribute to my friend and colleague from Stephenville (Mr. }1cNeil) , who spoke so eloquently and with such conviction the day he spoke. I do not intend to make a speech as long or as forceful as my £riend and colleague, but I will say this, that I 1 as a person living in Bay St. George, in the Bay St.

Geroge area, feel as strongly as he does that the mill should not close. Today the un~uployed, at this mozr.ent, of Bay St. George, of the Stephenville area, are demonstrating their cause in that town. I understand that it started at ten o'clock this morning, although I have not had any word as to how things are going. They have decided that because of the situation they are in they are going to, just as a matter of protest and to demonstrate their cause, go out on a walk this morning. Now there is a reason for this, Mr. Speaker.

Before the announced closure of the mill there were 4,300 - that was the last figure I heard - people registered with Canada Manpower - that lS the Stephenville Manpower office which takes in the Bay St. George area - there were 4,300 people. unemployed. These people have been unemployed for quite some time. The problem in that area is not only one of the mill closing, it is a probla~ of unemployment from the Bill of Cape St. George to the end of the district of St. George's. The area in the past year and-

~av 12, 1977, ~ape 2576, Page 3 -- apb >1R. :iODDER: a - hal: has suf:ered greatly . The main industry ha s been down time and time again , money has been _ : ca~~:' hard to come by, businesses have gone out o: existence . The peo?le have been living under a cloud and ~he whole situation has been one of gloom, doom, and finally, with the announca~ent made last week~the ~omrnunity is in a state of shock . But one thing is sure, Mr. Speaker, no one in Bay St . George acce?ts the fact that that ~ill should close. I think that ~va s made very clear to the ~irtister of Public 1do rks when he visited there last week.

~:fay 12, 1977 Tape No. 2577 EC - 1 ~m. HODDER: There were people willing to look at alternate ways of employment, but no one in the area is willing to accept that. Now, why, _Hr. Speaker?· 1fuy would an area which has been under the gun for so long~ why would they say, "}!o, this cannot happen i this is impossible; we do not accept it," ";·Then they have been told that the mill is going to close? Well, Mr. Speaker, for the last four years the people of Bay St. George have lived with that now. They are people who have worked in it and they h.;3.ve found that they have been closer to the scene.

They ~ave heard the cnnouncements, they have heard the rumors, they have listened to the media, they have listened to the politicians, and a whole area has had their eye on that mill for so long and have been thinking about the mill for so long that in no way can they accept the fact that it. will close. They know T,.;hat has gone on in the past. They knm.; about the mis­ management.

There are people in the mill, and the stories that come back from the mill - some of them have been substantiated and some have not - but the whole thing is that they, ~nre than anybody else in the Province,know that an injustice has been done. And they have been the ones who have been casting their eyes onthat mill for the past four years. The other problem in the area, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that we have no secondary industry. For ages the Harmon Corporation has asked for development officers and they have been refused them.

We have Atlantic Design Homes there '"hich employs people at certain periods throughout the year and then at other periods the place is closed down. We had a fish plant there which could have oper­ ated, and there are some parallels between that fish plant and the Linerboard mill. The fish plant put up a tremendous product - the King Oscar herring, kippers, whatnot - a tremendous product, but it went bankrupt, I understand, and then all the parts at that particular place were sold. Now, ~r. Speaker, that plant could be working at full capacity at this moment.

But it took the courage and dete~nation of the government to make sure that when that particular thing was

~fay 12' 19 77 Tape ~o. 25 77 EC - 2 HR. HODDER: failing that it would start up under the proper circumstances. And this did not happen. And consequent1:;r, a lovely industry based on another resource industry was auctio~ed ?ff. I attended that auction and people came from all over the world - flew in from Eu!ope, from the mainland and everywhere else and I watched the bidding of professional auctioneers, and away went everything. At the present time, the herring seiners are landing in Bay St.

George, at the Stephenville port and they are taking the herring into large trucks~ in the tanker-type trucks~and carrying them across to the mainland and to plants elsewhere in the Province. With a little courage, a little determination, that industry could have worked.

I feel the same thing about Labrador Linerboard Limited, that with courage, with a belief that the mill is able to operate, that sort of determination that this will not close, this will not be allowed to happen 1 we must find ways to turn it around - that sort of determination - I believe that in three or four years time the mill could be an asset to thefrovince.

And I would say this, that if the mill is to go the way of that particular fish plant~ the one thing that would frighten me is that if that thing is to close - I u."'lders tand that there are people who ha,;e already expressed interest in parts of that mill- that it would be-over my dead body that ever any particular piece of that mill would be sold. Th~t mill must be left intact. I believe that when I asked that question to the ~inister of Manpower and Industrial Relations last week when he was out, he expressed the same thoughts.

Pnd if there is any feeling that that should happen in this government you have not seen anything yet as far as the opposition from the people of Stephenville. Another strange thing that has happened - you know, it was the feeling - A.i.'i HON. :l-!EXBER: Yes. HR. HODDER: - that perhaps the rest of ~ewfoundland

Tape 2578 C~orni:cg) AH-1 ~·:R. I-J:ODDER: did not feel that the mill should o~erate. You knm·;, :~r. Soeaker,. that attitude is not ':here anv2ore, The people of l'ie~vfoundland, thE people of Bay St. George ,you know,this is one issue \vhere the whole of the Island has said no ,it should not close, !he government has not made ~he case for closing the mill. Tb.e ~fe,.;foundland Bishops, the priests, the Board of Trade in St. John's, development groups from all over the Island have come out and said, "Do not close the mill.

It is an economic blow to the Province" ~jot only that, ~~r.-.Speaker, out to close that mill "t-7ill resound, the economic iimJact ~dll resound from one end of t:"lis Island to the other. 'P-te area in question, the area ;.;here the !:!ill is located is one which is ~ost vitally devendent on the mill. But the mill h ~· .. as ..

J.nge rs , tentacles \vhich go to the ~~orthern Peninsula ,which go to the Le"t-!isporte district, -::;hich go into the Green :Say district, the ~istrict of the ~~inister of Industrial or the ~inister of ::atural ~esources, it ~oes into the ~oddickton area, {nto the district of my friend. and leader the Leader of the nDDosition, it had a great ir:mact on Labrador.

I understand th<>.t there cvere some 1700 wood's ~•orkers and thf' figure which has been tl-irm•n around i!', a multiplier effect throughout this Province ,~;hich has ~een de~ated and throwu around)the multiplier effect of three is one that Statistics Canada uses. Itis also one that in the Forestry \-leek supolement of the r;estern Star , a couple of Heeks ago during Forestrv \.Jeek that is the figure that Em-raters uses for the e~ployment and the spending of employment whic~ t~eir mill creates. ~·Tot only that, ~~.

Speaker,but once that mill is closed one third of the wood's industrv in this Province is gone, one third of one of our natural resources. And I 'have ~.eard figures 1 -and I have ~eard reports, and I have read reports \vhich say that the :rrill is dependent on the ':-70od 's industry and that the ~·;oodlands of this Island are ':Jig enough to support four mills 1 not t':·To.

~~ay 12,197 7 !'aoe 25 78 (:'lorni":lg) AS-2 :s . !-:ODDER: •..;re muse. rerr.ecber that if t here are probJ.e!':'.s to be overco!tle i:'l this way t~en positive action must be taken and ~.;hich has not been taken . No,.; in my district 3 the district of Port au Port,it starts in the· community of Kinpens ~.;hich is - I suppose you co uld call it a dormitory to~m for the tmvn of Stephenville, there is very little d.ifferer,ce in t~e eJti?lO~nnent structure of that cot:mrunity and in the to\·i!l of Stephenville itself .

About one t~ird of my district artd I vould say that the total emnloyment or :Post of t~e emplo~ent there is either soin-off jobs from the ~i ll or the y ~ork directly in the mill.

And I think of the discrict in the tow'"tl of Port · au !'art, Aguathuna, Port au Port ~·~est -A.zu athuna , the to\.;n of Port au · Port itself and t hen the tor.-'11 of Kiooen s \vhich makes up , these ;>eople are di rectl y employed , The rest of the district, the peni!tsula por tion of the distr ict, ,.;e h ave people vho are directly employed with the mill and then <ve have all the people who are e!!iployed as clerks, and l·Jith business and with the service industries i~ t~e area . :>low· sometime a go these people also were directly involved in the mill in taat t he oeninsula portion of the distri ct 1.;as heavil y involved in the r,;oods industry and last year thev ~.;.: :-e t he first to go.

I can remember, ~fr . Spea.l<.er, ,.;hen t:te buses used to travel throughout t he distric t in the ~ornings

~ay 12, 1977 Tape 2579 (Xorning) PK - 1 ~Ir. Hodder: and pick up the woods workers and take them down to Southwest Coast and Cold Brook and took them back in the afternoons, ~ese buses have ceased to run. That was a year ago when the crunch came in that particular portion of the district. And at the present time if the mill is to go it is one of the highest unemployment areas in the Province. As the Minister of ~·fanpower and Industrial Relations said this morning that Port au Port has been iden~ified as this, that is before the mill closes. wnat, Xr.

Speaker, is going to happen '..Then it does close', when the whole economic underpinning of the district has disappeared? I dread to think of it. I do not think unless you actually live in the area that you could ever understand what the economic consequences would be. You see, ~1r. Speaker, ':ve have had no secondarj industry developed in that area. We have had no efforts to bring secondary industry into the area. And here once the mill goes the ':vhole primarj purpose for the existence of Bay St. George has disappeared. Not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but without the mill I see •.<tithin three or four years this whole area of Ne•..7foundland will be just a ghost town. People have started to move already, people have had enough of it, there were people left last year. However the strange thing is that when the final announcement of the mill closing came; there has been no lineups at the Xanpm.;er Office, that is from the mill. Kimberley-Clarke was in there some time ago or last week and people did not run, And that goes back to the point I made befcre,is that people do net accept that that mill will close.

And they are adamant, and ~-they do it for a very, verJ good reason, because they have seen the operations of that mill, they have lived with it, they kna;.; what has happened. And what has happened, Mr. Speaker, has been mismanagement. It has not been mismanagement by the uninn people, it has not been mismanagement by middle management, it has not been mismanagement by the - we will say the top management, it has been mismanagement by the goverrment.

Xay 12, 1977 Tape 2579 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. Hodder: Now I ran a news~aper in Bay St. George for one year, and I think I know ~omething of - I listened to the Premier on T.V. the night that he had his little broadcast , and I caught one thing that past management had been bad or some reference to past management. I do not h·ave the exact ;.rords here now. But, you know, Mr. Speaker, I often wonder about the former President of the mill, I often wonder was he a good mill manager or was he not?

Because in my conversations with him, and there T,;ere many as a newspaper3&• 2.nd as a friend, but my conversations with him showed me that he was a civil servant. That when he was hired to that particular mill that he came in there not to run the mill, with a Board of Directors that said, Give us some profits, and, you know, make sure~ •..;e want to see profits, ~•e want to see things ~.;ark in this area. Now that did not happen, Mr. Speaker.

There -was such tight control on that man, and I do not know if he was intimidated from the very day,the first day that he arrived there, because of the controls that were on him, and the fact that he could not make a decision on his own, and he did not have the guts to fight back . I do not know if that was the case. But I do know this~that any decision that was made in that mill had to be checked out in St. John's first, and the mill was run by remote control from this building here, this Confederation Building.

Now the failure to do anything by. this gover~ent in the five years or the four years that that mill has been in existence is appalling. This government when they came in paved some roads, they put in some water and se•..rer systems, and they have done certain things of that nature for the Province. ~R. MURPHY: 'lo.That does that '(Inaudibl'e) . · - MR. HODDER: But there were - I do not knm•, you kno-w, I know that there were improvements made in the mill - there were some improvements made in the mill, and

1? --· 1977 Tape ~~o. 2580 Nl-~ - 1 :!R. HODDEP.: I \·lill get dor.,m. to that in a little while. Bnt one of the things that bothers me most about the improvements in the mill is that none of them were really geared in any \•ray to an end result of a return on the money of the improvements. And I <dll get to that in a little while.

He have heard comments about the Lover Churchill, the Upper Churchill~and the money that has been spent and the money on which we have not seen returns and we have come to,an.d we have seen the grand announcer::J.ents,and I do not want to get political here, before the last election, about the exnansion of Come By Chance.

I r,.1as reading a COIJY of the Financial Times of Canada, an old issue, r..;hich told ·abot.tt the ?!;reat expansions that r..;ere going to happen at Come By Chance and the great plans and all of this, and the Lower Churchill and the hydro developments in the Lower Churchill end you knm.; if reading it ivas unbelievable, because it Has I·Tritten just before the last provincial election, and r.vhat ha-;Jpened after»ards? I am wondering, l-!r.

Speaker, if this government r,v-ants to get rid of that r.::till that has been a millstone around their neck so badly that they would do anything to get rid of it, including closin~ it do<m. 3ecause the fact is that the thing can be ~ade to operate. ~low, :rr. Speaker, just in preliminary to iJ"hat I ulan to get into in a little while,I <rould like to get at wha:: is happening in Bay St. George at the present t:L-,e. '·Then I arrived in Bay St. George ten years· ago there were some established businesses in that area.

In the last two years,not altogether because of do,m-time and uncertainty~but many of those established businesses have disappeared, These businesses employ peonle and every time a business disappears, a business goes bankrupt, and there has been many of those in the area, then we have unemployrtent. T,Je have people in the area nm.; ;.;ho have mortgages

May 12, 1977 Tape ~To. 2580 ~TM - 2 :.m. HODDER: You kno•11, ~~r. Speaker, the last time that the town suffered a shock like this, in that particular time most people owned their own homes. They left, they sold them, they made some money and they moved elsewhere in ~evfoundland and across Canada. But this is different this time, Hr. Speaker. living in a different age nmv. Now they have mortgages they have investments and they were encouraged to come that town. And they r.vere encouraged to invest.

These schools were built, beautiful schools to encourage the children of the workers and the workers to come to the He are and to area, a tremendous infrastructure. One of the best,I suppose, on the Island, thanks to perhaps the Americans to some extent and perhaps to the £ ederal government in the other r.vay. But the infrastructure is such that just about every activity, social and otherwise, athletic, it goes on in that-particular community and the community has for the first time in four years jelled together and became one community, all the outsiders, Stephenville and Bay St.

George has had a history of people co~ing in from outside and it takes a little •.vhile before you become a corrununity and noH \vith the closure of the T!1.ill, succenly just as the corrnr.unity becomes something that everybody is proud to let in and ''hY they are fighting so hard, :v~r. Speaker, is that~ you knmv~the neonle of that area do not \vant to leave. I have never met a person r.,•ho came to Stephenville and lived there for any length of ti:::~e who r.vantecl to leave because they like the tow~ and now suddenly,just as the town comes together~ there we are, the rug is pulled out. ""fr.

Speaker, I T.Vould just like to say a fer.v r.vords about some of the comments that have been :::~ade here in the P.ouse during the past few days. I feel that there has been some misconceotions on the other side of the House, misconceptions about what has

:-~ay 12 , ,_ 977 Tape ~1o. 25RQ :--tR . ~ODDER: :~appe :1ed in S tepherrville and t:lat is serious, ~r . Spea ke=, because when there are =isco nce?ti ons then - and they are not put right - then you know when a decision t hat was taken by this government~ tvhen a government de cides to make a decision t hey should have all the facts .

I have heard from t~•o ninisters, one <t~ho said it publicly , about the union. ~O\v I feel alr!lost that the ~linister of Education should resign for the co~ents he made here in the ~ouse the other day, his uninformed statenents about what hanpened durin g the strike. ~~ HO~ . ~:-~ER: There were strikes t hough . ~1R . ~ODDER : There ~.;ere strikes, there were strikes righ t across Canada , !hey started in BC and they cane to :-lewfoundland . :lut I ,..,ould like to p ut one th i n£ clear, that as far as the union and the effi?loyees of t hat mill are concerned, they still do not have t he same benefits as the i -:­ counterparts across Canada , t ha t is one thin~.

~ay 12, 1977 Tape 2581 (~orning) PK - 1 Mr. Hodder: They settled for less the last time. They can move to another mill anywhere in Canada, and get better benefits. Their increase which they got the last time was well ~vithin the wage and price controls.

And they were negotiating at that particular time when the markets were soft, and management did not want to sit dow~­ you know, actually I believe it-and I know that management did not want to sit down with them because at that particular time it was to their benefit that the·strike continue, and then suddenly, after r.No or three weeks into the strike~suddenly they got some more orders, and suddenly let us sit down, let us settle the strike and the strike was settled. So any comments of that sort, you know., I cannot agree with.

And I must say that, you know, any member of the government that stands up and makes that sort of a statement~ and I understand that the minister was taken to task by some of the union members that were here at that time, yo~ know, you are talking about a union at this particular time who were willing to make concessions, take cuts in salaries~do anything if you~ould sit down and talk to them, and then for that so~t of a statement to come out in the House~ v Mr. Speaker, when the hon. Minister of Justice spoke here the other day he said that we must get away from political debate. SOME HON. XEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HODDER: Now, Mr. Speaker, this is the House of Assembly and this is a debating forum, and this is a mill which is run by government, and. thi~ has been a debate which has been called to detate the mill. And, you kno~.;, what do you call political debate? He also said something else that upset me a bit. MR. RIDEOUT: It upset all of us. MR. HODDER: He hinted that the publications of the reports might already be hurting the chances of selling the mill. Now there were two reports tabled here in this House the other day.

May 12, 1977 Tape 2581 (Morning) PK - 2 Xr. Hodder: They were reports which were done by a Committee of the Advisor; Board. They were positive reports. A.J.'q RON. MEMBER: They were confidential reports. MR. HODDER: They may have been confidential, but they were positive. They said,the mill cannot work without certain improvements. Now what, Mr. Speaker, is more negative than that report which was put out by the Advisory Board tabled in the House of Assembly, with the Premier on T.V. saying the mill will close~ I mean ho~ can we be negative when we bring out some reports like that. Absolute nonsense, hogwash. MR.

FLIGHT: Unadulterated nonsense. MR. HODDER: Now the minister also said that, you know, he said {£ there is any reputable company in Canada t•hich would like to take over the Linerboard Hill we ;.;auld crawl to their doors, and we would aid them and we would abet them. ~ow that is the most negative thing that I have heard in this debate so far. You ,know, Mr. Speaker, if you believe that it cannot work,it will not work. I ran a small business for a while, Ij I had run that business with the intention or the belief that it wculd not work, well, Mr. Speaker, you know, how could it work?

And I believe thet many of the problems of this mill is the feeling right from the very beginning that the mill would not work. Now, you know, if you believe it, if you believe it was a blunder - AN HON. MEMBER: It will - MR. HODDER: - if you believe it r.•as put there and it was put there improperly, if you believe that, if you believe that the thing was wrong from the beginning, and I heard the member from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), I believe, and the member from St. John's East (Mr.

M~rshall) talking about it, and they talked about the early days, they-·said nothing about the present, and I do not believe either one of them has ever been in the mill recently~ They may have been, they may have been there for the opening. Neither one of them

~ay 12, 1977 Tape 2581 (~o~ing) PK - 3 ~. P.ODDER: has looked at the woods operation nor talked to t he people of the area or talked to t he worke r s . And yet they get up and talk about t he ill-conceived notions and all this hogwash tha t t he mill could not work, that the thing was ill -conceived, about the money floa t i~g around in Europe and all that nonsense. ~~a t happened, Mr . Speaker , t ha t when this government c.ame in t o office there was a oill t her e . It was a resource ·' based mill, one of the resources of this Province, cne of our primary resources . And if you look at the past~ · if we have go t to look back at t he past . because I still

:ray 12,19 77 AP.:-1 ~. HODDER: believe the mill can go and I anpeal to thes govern~e!1t to keen it going~ but if you just look back at the past and you say this happened, that hanpened and somethin~ else happened~then you have got blinkers on and you only see straight ahead. Because, :fr. Speaker, vou have got to see 9 you have got to learn, and you l,1ave got to look at ~.;hat happens in that particular operation. This is not a fly-by-night industry, this is not a small industrv:this is an industrv that before it . ' . is all ~-Tound down could cost three quarters of a billion dollars.

And this is the most - Xr. Speaker, I would like to move a sub-amendment - ~fR. SPEAKER : Order please! ~. HODDER: To move a sub-amendment 1-1hich >-;as moved ~d seconded by the member for the Straits of Belle~ ~s le, ~rr Roberts and to add to the amendment the fo1lm.ring Hords;'<\nd further the Rouse hereby request the President and Chief Executive Officer of Labrador Linerboard Limited, /~r. s,.reeney,to an-pear before the Bar of the House to give his vie>vs, opinions and advice ~.;ith respect to the milL and its future and to answer questions put to him by members with respect thereto'.' MR.

S PE.-\KER : Is the House ready for the motion? I am advised that the sub-amendment is in order. ' v ;'>ffi. ROBERTS: No, is the House ready for the question? ~ffi.. SPE.AKER: Question. A sub-amendment rr.oved bv the hen. member for Port _ au Port (Hr. Redder). I have got to read it? ~- ~. ROBERTS : Yes. HR. SPEA.'<ER: Seconded by the han. Leader of the Opposition to add to the amendment the follm-ring vords, "P.nd further the House herepy request the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Labrador Linerboard Limited, Mr.

John Sweeney, to an~ear before the Bar of the Rouse to give his vie'-"S, ooinions and advice with resnect to the mill and its future and to ans<-ler questions put to hirn by memhers !.-lith respect thereto." The hon. member for Port au Port. ~~. HODDER: ~r. Soeaker, one other thing that I would like

~fay 12,19 77 Tape 2532 C·!orning) AH-2 ~fR. !:IODDER: to bring to the attention of the Rouse is the lack of info~ation,and t~is has ~een talked about before.

He were told by the Board of Directors "Cvhen they visited Stephenville some time ago - this was before the formation of the Advisory Board, before the Premier came out '-lith the neu Advisory Board and held a press conference, this "<:vas long before this, some"Cvhere back last November or December - when the Board of Directors came out we were promised information~ 11fe were told that if the impact committee of "C·lhich I am a member w2nted information they could have it- you know~keep in touch boys, keen in touch; this is bigger than all of us we need your helo and our helo and all that sort of thing.

The impact committee requested information time after time- again, not one "Cvord. ~.:hat type of information do \Ve need? He need.information, ~r. Speaker, on everything that has gone on in that particular mill· '·!e need tabled documents·, if it has to be cabinet documents -.;.;e need every report that goes to that . Advisory Board. Row can -.;-;e make up our minds, L-~r.

Speaker, or how can the rest of the Province make up their minds when a report comes in to this House ;.;hich did not say the mill should close~ but ':vhich the government claims . said the mill should close., and the~ the gove~ment announces that it should close? And then we come upon document,after docucent,after document vhich does not say this. · And I !:light say this, ~r. Soeaker, and, Mr. Speaker, you mav not kno"C.; this, but the wood's report is ready or is just about ready. :1'mv I have not got it,but the •,;cod's renort- and I can tell the House right noH that the <,.;roods reoort is .

" an opti!!'istic report it is not a oessimistic reoort - nm.; ~·That that document that we received.,that preliminary document from that ':vas tabled here in the House says is based on nothing that I can find. But the Hood's report says that the wood can be found. ~Tow you can take my word for that and I hope that that particular document is tabled in this House.

~fay 12, 19 77 Tape 2.582 (Yarning) AH-3 ~. HICKi-fAJ.'i: If it can be found that it is exactly less cost than the one shown here. :-E~.. HODDER: Oh certainly, it certainly can. ~. HIC:C·~.N: Only in ~Tewfoundland. ~::R.. · !:ODDER: In ~Te~-rfoundland. A.'l' HON :"!EHBEP.: Lots of wood in ~TeTN"foundland. ~~. HODDER: It is

May 12, 1977 Tape ~o. 2583 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: an optimistic report. I have not read the report myself, but I talked to somebody who saw it and that woods report is not a pessimistic report. That woods report is not going to close Labrador Linerboard Limited. Now I would like to talk, ~fr. Speaker, for a few minutes about~~e shipping contracts. Now yo~ see, Mr. Speaker, back in 1972 when the mill started production - I am talking about planning now. I am talking about planning of this administration. And I am saying that from the very beginning, from the very inception of that mill, things were going wrong.

I was reading last night, through a report which was called Report Shipment of Wood - Labrador to Stephenville - 1972, by J. D. Burroughs - the Burroughs Report. And that is a document which members on the other side of the House are familiar with. And when you read that it is like a comedy of errors. It is unbelieYable the type of planning that went into this thing, the ships~ the types of ships that were brought in. The Burroughs Report, in one part, talks about the cost of slings. Now this is a very small thing~ the slings on which the wood was landed. Each bundle was bound by two slings at a cost of $18.70.

That is what the slings cost. &""1d I quote words from that report: "Those slings haYe nat · t~-date been taken off the bundles for reuse and must be y charged as having a mortality rate of one. With 6.6 cords per bundle, this means a cost of $2.83 per cord;' Now the Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Peckford, who was up here the other night saying, "These are small amounts, small amounts," but how many - and I hope before I finish today, Mr. Speaker, to list a whole lot of small amounts of money, and some of them large amounts. And these things are documented.

I hope to shm.; the House that it is not small amounts of money. We are talking about millions and millions and millions of dollars. But if you can imagine t h at at that par- ticular time they did not reuse the slings that cost $18.70 each on a bundle~ \vhen you consider 6.6 cords that means a cost of $2.83 a cord: ~ow we had the - Vancouver Forest - I believe was the first ship t hat came into Stephenville. It took 13.5

May 12, 1977 Tape No. 2583 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: · days to unload at a cost of $3.01 per cord. The Kyoda Forest took 17. ~ _ days to unload- $3.41 a cord added on. The labour for those particular boats, they had seven men working there on the cranes and everything else, this cost a further $1.02 a cord. These boats, right from the beginning were the _ t·lrong ships. They were not the type of ships to be used in this pa.rticular joo·.

Nobody ever looked at the port in Stephenville and looked at the port in Goose Bay and looked at the situation and said, this is the type of ship we need, Somebody went . out and hired - leased - whatever they did - three or four ships which were totally unsuitable' a~i. ··sc-rewed.- up from the very beginning. So hmv do you start? Now it would have been better if we had kept it down a year instead of opening, and ironed out the~e problems. Now why do we not get down to those slings again~ because you knoy;r, it ·is just mind-boggling.

It is amazing '· They say that when the slings were reused - when they finally got around to reusing them-then there was a large number of slings, that they were dumping the y;rood in the water. You know, this is a great way: Well, we will get back to that and the dry land system in a little while. So they would drop the wood in the water and then the wood had to come out of the water with your sinkage and lossage on the bottom - the claws would go down and pick up the wood and drop it over the side. And then they had another nethod by which the thing was slung and then the slin~came off.

You know, the slings ~.;auld last twice. It had an average of two - twice dumping off like that at $1.98 a cord - another $1.98 tagged onto it. And then there are the boats coming down from Goose Bay. They did not know how to load them. There is a recommendation in the Burroughs Report that you do not load the wood in the middle of the hold you load it on the sides. So the boats were coming down half empty, And not only that, but - and it is something else I will get to a little later- not only were they coming do<NU half full, but the amount of wood that left Labrador and the amount of wood that was

~fay 12,19 77 Tane 2584 (~·forning) AF-1 :P.. HODDER: taken off in Stephenville did not jibe. There ;..7as less wood taken off the boats in Stephenville than was loaded in Labrador. iTow what hap!Jened? Did they make rafts, did they carry the boats back half full - you knm.;,leave-_did they dump it over the side bet",;een Goo·se Bay and Labrador? I do not knm.; . But the actual fact is t!:"!at t!:"!e boats left Labrador '1-Tith one lot of wood and arrived in Step!lenville 'lvit~ less \•rood. Now where is the an~.;er to those questions? That is the sort of infornation I would like to see.

Just getting back on t!le shipping contracts again~ The first time that the Vancouver Forest anchored, the first time s;,.e came to Stephenville she anchored off Stephenville for ten days. Do you realize that 1.;e hired boats which came ·into the port but they were too ~~g actually to get into the channel so she had to \·lait ten days until they bad the channel dredged enough for t~e heat to come in.

Good planning, good nlanning, excellent nla:min~ l You knol·l, you hire a boat Hhich is unsuitable,and then you finally get her loaded. half loaded,she come into Stenhenville and she cannot enter the harbour.,she has to 'lolait ten days. I think you can pick up this report anywhere at all-and this is the very early days-and you can look almost anr.vhere at all in this report and you 'l-7ill see - you cannot believe your eves , if I can find it here no-v;. , the days lost, there was one day lost - they lost three days.

I do not knm..- i.;hat these ships - we have never heard what they cost but we did hear that the- you know~the conflicting figures are tremendous. ~ - le did hear that it '1as something like $23 a cord shipping.But there was one day, ~r. Speaker, that they­ well there t..;as ten days that the pilot and the master refused to enter the channel - that l·ias the first trio- Lrntil tl-:e channel ~-1as dredged. There was another ti!!'.e that they t..;a.ited three davs for a pilot, three days they t.vaited out there for a pilot. I rio not knmv ,.;hat happened Hhether anyone ever tried one after, r.-Jaiting

~fay 12 , 19 77 Tane 2584 (Yarning) AH-2 ~ffi.. EODDE:R: tlerth ;,'hile ~rerrn_ess is ~eing discharged, Three days that is awaiting berth .. <\nd that was another thing, ~~r. t - · - Speaker, about those boats. And '\ore are talking of costs of Labrador ~·mod nmv which has always baffled me. First of all the Vancouver Forest 'tvaited ten days outside and that fooled up the schedul~o you had boat upon boat,you had on~ boat unloading and the other one waiting outside. And then somewhere during the season they had to throw the whole thing over and let one stay there,and they lost ten days because they had to re-arrange their

schedule a~ain and eve~1thing piled up They only had three boats going back and forth -time lost. I would think, Mr. Speaker, that if you . ~.;ere to start of in that particular Hay , if you were to start an enternrise in that way and you '"ere going to be bringing Hood do~m from Labrador,one of the most im:oortant thing ~.;auld be to get a suitable type of ship and suitable type of docking before the thing even arrived .. <\nd we went throu~h one year and a half of that at a cost of $105 per cord. And that comes down to somethil}g else: I visited Goose Bay this year- no~I would say last year before Christman.

And the figures, }!r. Speeker, that I have heard for Labrador ~.;ood - now -""I do not know if Labrador ~·lOad ,.;auld be feasible for Stephenville but the •..rhole thin~ - ever;time you hear figures, ar.d evervthin~ I have looked at~ you see a figure from Stenhenville - wait new, from the ':·lOOds to the road~and you get another figure from the road to the boat, you do not get any other figure othenrise. ~ror do you get a figure from the boat to Stephenville as it was delivered. There is ah.;ays one figure missing in oet~·reen SOJ'le\·lhere.

I do not know the costs~ but I do kno-v1 that I ':·las told ~-1hen I ,.;as in Goose Bay that •..;hile oeo9le ~vere out talking ;;,bout anywhere from $105 to $115 a cord that the actual cost has been

~fay 12,19 77 Tape 2584 AP.-3 ~!R. . ROODE~: worked out by accounc:ants in that area t.;as some~·;here around $85 a cord - it tY'aS either $83 or $8i , r..re will take $85 as a mean figure. They ~•onder:d what the oth~r charges were for, were there charges tacked on there for the old Javelin ~achinery that was being ~.,.rit ten off up there? 3ut these ••ere the figures, the realistic figures . ~ow I kno~1 that is too high and that is not a compedative figure but I ~.;ronder - you k.T'to~ ~'lv hen you look at t:he ~roblem , o:.1hen vou look at the ~.toorls cai:\OS and t.;hen you look at t~e inventory a~d all the thi."lgs that r..;ere t here ,I ~.,onder i£ they had

May 12, 1977 Tape 2585 (Morning) PK - 1 MR. HODDER: used private contr~cEors_ .. ~9 h~d_ worked ou~ _the shipping arrangement, _novr could we not have gotten it down much cheaper? Before I was elected I sat up .there in the gallery one night. The han. Minister of Finance, as he was then~>vas holding forth from his seat - I do not know,some opposition member at that time had made some charge about International Forest Products - and I will never forget that speech that he made or the question he answered~because he went on, he said, Mr.

Speaker, International Forest Products is one of the greatest marketing agencies in the world, they are superb, wonderful people, and he talked on and on and on and on about International Forest Products. Now this has been dealt with before~I know, but this is just another progression in the long line of problems - they were set up to deal with linerboard. No experience whatsoever~ A small company, a guaranteed minimum, $200,000 a year fee from the government, I understand in one year they made anywhere between $600,000 and $800,000. And then suddenly we see a new look at the mill, and who is the first to go?

International Forest Products. And no,.; we get a different story on the other side. Now let us look at the staffing of the mill, I am going right back to the early days of that· mill, let us look at the staffing. Do you.knm.;, Mr. Speaker, I think it was the firm of Peat; Marwick, I believe, were given the assignment of staffing the Labrador Linerboard Limited, and suddenly a debate arose. Now one of the things was that we, the people of Bay St. George, were led by a particular lady who said, We want our own people employed in that mill. Of course, that was a natural response.

You know, they were willing to even take the manager from top management right to the bottom. I do not think they were correct in the way they approached it. Sure Ne wanted to see our people, but we knew, I think any normal person would know~that you hav~ to set up , you know, with certain competent people '"ho are competent in the

~ay 12, 1977 Tape 2585 (Morning) PK - 2 ~r. Hodder: industry. But the thing was that this government bent to the pressure. And in the first days of that mill's operation there were thousands, not thousands,but there were hundreds of people wandering around the mill because of this pressure, this public pressure to get people in, and they bent to it, instead of saying, "This mill is going to go, these are the people we need,'' they bent to the pressure to staff the mill, and it ~.;ras over-staffed - from Day Qne that mill was over-staffed.

And then, you know, when you live in the tmm and you hear the rumours from the people who are working down there and the disgruntlement, they- said everybody is wal!<ing around; he said, there are more white hats wandering around here than you can shake a strick at, ~here are, you know, - you do not work down in the mill, there are too many people, we are walking over each others toes. The mill was over-staffed from the very beginning. MR. ROBERTS: MR HODDER: MR. ROBERTS: This was all in the government's time was it not? Oh, yes.

Tt1is was not the infamous pre government's period, this was after this administration took over. MR. HODDER: Oh, no I have not said a word before the - I mean I am just talking about the thing as it went. :MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: }fR. ~EARY : HR. HODDER: How many - And he was talking about saving money. How many white hats compared to ordinary workers? I would say, you know, I could not really, but, you know, the words you get back, there are two of them to everv one of ul:l. That sort of thing. MR. FLIGHT: Too many Indians and not enough braves. MR.

HODDER: But not only that~but there are too many, you know, I would say it, I mean maybe the people in Bay St. George might not like to say it, but the truth is , I m~an the thing is down, and it is going do•Nn - that you had too many people working in the mill right from the bottom to the top, Andnow the

~ay 12, 1977 Tape 2585 (Xorning) PK - 3 ~r. Hodder: mill is still operating, and we have seen key people move away in recent times, and their positions have not been replaced, and the thing still goes, they can still turn out - MR. ROBERTS: The biggest production ever. MR. HODDER: Yes, they can turn out 200 tons over what they were designed to do, 1,200 tons as was mentioned here in the House there the other day. Now when the mill was taken over by this government~ let us look at the woods supply.

The first statements, I think, when the government took over - and there were many of them - was that we are going to rationalize the woods industry,- we are working on it; that was one of ~he, you know, back in 1971, 1972 even before the mill started up this was a platform of this government, We· are going to rationalize the woods supply, we are going to make the woods supply more equitable for all areas of the Province, this must be done.

You know, I bet you if you go back in the files, I have seen some of them. that you will see statement after statement made by Ministers of Forestry that they were going to rationalize the wood supply. never done. It was As a matter of fact,when this government came into existence they were going to look afterwood -· harvesting. What terrible harvesting was done - there was no reforestation, no this and that, no cutting out so that trees can grow and all that sort of thing. We are going to change t?at. Well you go through the district of St. George's, my friend from St. George's (Mrs. Macisaac)

~ay 12 , 19 77 Tape 2586 (~orning) PK - 1 ~fr. Hodder: and ask her what so~t of forest management goes on in that particular area. I know some has been done. We have a tree nursery somewhere or other. l-fR. FLIGHT: Go anywhere in Newfoundland. MR. HODDER: - and see what the paper companies are doing. MR. FLIGHT: Go anywhere in Newfoundland. MR. HODDER: You know,! am told or I heard a figure in this Rouse the other day that in some areas of this Province we have had three growths of timber which have been cut, they are on their third growth. Now what would have happened - there are areas in the district of St.

George's where there will never be a tree grow - forest management, oh boy! MR. FLIGHT: It does not have it. There is no forest management in this Province. Sm1E RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. EODDER: Now the other thing about the start up of this woods industry - now I am talking about money~ I am talking about running a business~ '- and that is what that was,a business which was being run by the government - _th_ey paid hi2'hP1"' mnnPv t:n thP contractors than any other company in this Province. Now, Xr.

Speaker, I understand why they did it in the beginning; they ~ad to break in on the woods contractors, But they . continued, and the varying amounts they paid contractors across this Province!

I mean,I know one story of a contractor in Central Newfoundland who lost the contract with Labrador Linerboard Limited when they shut out the woods operation, and went to Price~ He had more delivery to do, He was getting paid for it on the train which, I think. it ~•as, it was shipped in by train, he was being paid for it that way- and he then had to sell it to ~rice.' He started selling it to Price, and he had to take his own truck and bring it into Grand Falls, and quite a long distance, and took $10 a cord less and was still making mcney. Oh, Mr.

Speaker, there are many,many t.roods contractors in this Province,

~ay 12, 197i Ta~e 2586 (Morning) Mr. Hodder: you know, who did very, very well. Nobody ever sat down and renegotiated with these people. PK - 2 Now I would like to get into another part of this,the attitudes, the planning, the overall planning of this mill. When we had the mill going everybody ~vas told anytime you as_ked a question, Oh yes the mill would go. You know, the former Minister of Mines and Energy, Oh yes~the mill will go,everything is going to go~ we are going to overcome those problems. That was two years ago. Last year he said something different.

But we have the situation of where the man who is directly responsible for Labrador Linerboard Limited left, he left the government and went to greener pastures, Two months before he left, and he must certainly have had intentions of keeping the mill going, because two months before he left, he arid Mr. Ingram flew over to Norway and chartered ships for the Goose Bay-Stephenville run. MR. FLIGHT: MR. HODDER: Was that trip charged ~tt against tne mill? Well certainly it was. They went over to get contracts for the mill.

And then he leaves, and immediately when the gentleman leaves there is an announcement that Goose Bay is going to close out. And here we are two months before with contracts,· and I understand in litgation right now, You know, that was the sort of planning, and you start to wonder what went on over on the government side when here is this sort of, you know, input going into the mill, contracts being signed with both operators and for shipping~ and then suddenly the r.•hole thing is closed down. Now that was planning! That sort of strikes me as the whole way the mill has always been run.

Now then we had then after that particular time, and I was quite baffled by this, we had our little meeting out in Stephenville with -I was there, the member for St. George's (Mrs. Macisaac) was there, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Flight) was there, the

Xay 12, 1977 Tape 2586 (Morning) ~r.

Hodder: Minister of Forestry and Agriculture,and the Minister of Rural Development, and the Minister of Finance~ and they said, you PK - 3 know, we are to go out and bring in some people and we are going to look at this mill; we are to get this thing going, do not worry about it,boys, you know, we are going to put everything we got into it. }~d at that particular time-and here is the strange thing and this has been said in the House before, I said it before, but I am just thinking about the sequence of events -they hired Wodds Gordon, Woods Gordon went to get a market forecast, but in doing so - and I have said this before - but in doing so they happened to slip out to this trade circulation company in the States that the mill was closing.

Now I am wondering,Mr. Speaker, you know, if the Advisor] Board, you know, we will get down a little bit, you know, where they - was the government at that time - did they decide to close the mill because that trade · circulation company sent the mailograms to Europe and suddenly the angry telegrams came back to Labrador Linerboard Limited, I saw them, saying, what do you mean it is going to close? And I made the charge, I thought it was important that this be aired, something drastic had gone wrong with the markets,and the hon. Premier came out and said,

May 12, 1977 Tape No. 2587 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: ''Hogwash\ He does not know TNhat he is II talking about, over C.B.C. - you know, idiot more or less. And the next day,I guess, the TNord got through in here and the Minister of Finance comes out and admits, Oh, yes, that is right. It is a terrible thing - a t~rrible thing. Yes, it was a terrible thing because that is when our marke~started to go do•Nn. That is when our ma~kets started to decline, at that particular time. That was the biggest blunder that was made- that I can see, outside of all the other mismanagement and everything else.

But that TNas the first crippling blow. I often wonder - no, I could not believe that this government would deliberately do it. But when you look at the progression of events - MR. FLIGHT: Deliberate. MR. HODDER: you would wonder if it is deliberate. It certainly ruined the markets. We have lost thousands and thousands and thousands of tons because of that blunder. But I do know one thing~ that they did not go to the company in the United States and say that the government was thinking about closing the mill unless somebody had told them they TNere thinking of closing the mill.

So this decision TNas not made after the ' Advisory Board's Report. That is the reason why I have those reports here. That is the reason why the Alternative Requirements Report which TNas tabled here in the House the other day, the Capital Requirements Report and the Alternate Lines Report and the Woods Report,which is on the way now, which I want to see - I think that should be made public to this House~ every report as it comes in should be made public- that is why, Mr. Speaker, that the Advisory Board came out with something different. You can see it. You know, it is too transparent.

This decision was not made just before the budget~with two budgets TNritten and inserting pieces in the budget at the last moment and all that sort of thing. NoTN maybe there was a chance of - you know, they ran to Ottawa for a bail-out. That might have happened. There is no doubt, you know, the government went up and said ·, 'Prime Minister, give us so much money.' Well, I will tell you one thing; that if Ottawa were asked for a bail-out and they did not give it, I do not blame them. Ottawa put the money inl they put money where

Hay 12, 1977 Tape No. 2587 EC - 2 :1-fR. HODDER: they think they are going to get some returns. I see the Minister of Municipal Affairs looking at me quizzically. ~~ HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. HODDER: But they put money in to get returns. Ottawa put DREE money1 they bought all the equipment that was in Goose , Bay~ that is the sort of money they put in. We put money in equipment. That all came from DREE. Ottawa put money into the woods roads. A large part of it went to Labrador Linerboard Limited.

Ottawa built three DREE schools and built a water system and everything else and was willing to expand the dock up until the time our hon. friend~who is now the federal member for St. John's West,left. Ottawa was _helping us. W~ll, you do not go to Ottawa and say,'Give me so much money: Perhaps if we had gone to Ottawa and said, 'Look - MR. FLIGHT: 'Just wasted what you gave us - MR. HODDER: Perhaps if we had gone to Ottawa and said this:. 'We, with an outlay of $12.3 million can turn the thing around in two or three years,. And if we had gone to Ottawa and . said, 'Here are some of our plans.

We want to recover - We want to put in new screens so we can recover more fibre,which is a saving on wood. We know the electricity costs are going up in the mill and they are going to continue to escalate.' If we had gone to Ottawa and said, 'May we have some help because •11e need about $3 million to redesign the condensate sys_tem to save on bunker C,' - if we had gone to Ottawa and asked for that. If we had said, 'He want to install a turbo generator so that we can save bunker C, you know, over a three year period -' And I have no doubt in my mind that those figures which are in those reports are accurate.

They make too much sense. And yet, with reports like this ~ which the government said they did not receive - they did not have this report, _The Minister of Forestry and Agriculture said, "1-le did not have this report, Hr. Speaker; It has not been received by us yet. The Opposition got it but we do not have it.'' But how could you make a decision to close the mill? Anyhow, Mr. Speaker, we have lived with this for quite a long time. 'il e have seen it. The people of Bay St. George

Y...ay 12, 1977 Tape No. 2587 EC - 3 HR. HODDER: - oh my, oh my - the way they are shocked. They cannot believe it. I mean, we bring in a man, we put him there - poor Er. Sweeney. The man was brought in by this government and his job was to turn it around, to make it go. And he turned out to be a man who believed in what he did. He is a fighter. His whole life was dedicated to turning around the mill. 1-le brought him in~ and he asked for a few small - you know, $12.5 million in the whole run of things - and this government was not willing to give him the chance to do it, not willing to give him the chance.

After all, talk about pumping in money and subsidizing, that is not what the mill needed, what needed to be done there, to subsidize the thing, to throw in two or three hundred thousand or half _a m~llfun,two million, thirty million- to throw in - that is not what was needed. This sort of thing was not needed.

And that poor man came down here - I sympathize - I can see why - I think I have some sort of a news clipping here somewhere in the files which came from The Financial Post or The Globe and Mail, somewhere or other, and I can see why the man went berserk when the announcement was made and stuck his neck out - courage - and said, 'It is not so; it should not happen' and said it publicly. Here was a man who was hired to turn the mill around and four months later after working~ and the man worked - and by the way,

~fav 12, 1977 Tape 25 7l lb-1. ~.NEARY: A-supplementary nuestion, H:r.Speaker. the minister indicate to the House ':.rhether "Cloth the RC:·JP cowmercial and fraud squad and the err: of the ~ie~-1foundland Constabulary are currently involved in any investigations, either one or both? · Could the minister bring us up to date on this? Of course. The question r..;as asked me in this Eouse about three or four weeks ago. I asked for certain i~formation expecting the question to be asked me again. It will be asked again to until so~ething is done about it. Something has been done.

I still have the report and this one ,..as . as of I·Iarch 29. Charges have been laid in some instances and other reports have been received. ',lith respect to the investigation~the Constabulary :-lewfoundland Constabulary have tr..;o officers T,;ho are continuing their iu.vestigation, continuing to investigate and they anticipate it will take some months before ~hey finally complete their investigation. The N~wfoundland Constabulary are being assisted by two members of the Aud~tor General's Department.

The RCrW are continuing their investigation ~vi th, this was as of :1:-!arch 29, they still have one officer involved in the major investigation. But then also it is ~ added that a lot of the investigation is being carried on by RC·:P detach=.ents throughout the province. The note here is from th_e Director o:' Public Prosecutions. A great deal of the ground t.,..ork has been completed and officers familiar 1.;ith fisheries operation and investigators are proceeding at an acceptable pace. ~ffi..:-!E.:\RY: A supplementary ~!r. Speaker. XR. SPL\XER: A supplementary. ~!R.:-!EARY: That report .;.ras dated :-!arch 29.

Could the minister

::-~a.y 12' 19 77 Tape no. 2588 Page 1 - ms Mr. Hodder. I have only met him once. My friend and colleague from Stephenville has met him on ~any occasions - outhere is a man who put his heart and soul for the last four months - there is no secret - in the mill. There is no secret that that man worked from seven o'clock in the morning until eleven o'clock at night. He is a tired man from putting together committee reports, -running the mill; And for the first time, Mr. Speaker, for the first time in the mill's history he had the people behind him.

You know,we have sat there and we have- look, for the last three years, the talk- you know, I know all kinds of people in the mill - and the dissatisfaction aLd the lack of morale. You know~I mean all the political statements that were being made; you know one side said one thing and the other side said another. I mean~granted they did not know whether they were coming or going, and. suddenly a ~an comes in, and they respect him. That man at this moment is the most respected man in Bay St. George. And to tamper with that man in any way I thi~~ ~hat you would see a riot, I think ·Bay St.

George might march on this Confederation Building because he is the first man since the whole operation, the whole history of that mill who has ever done anything to make it ~wrk. He put confidence in the people. He got them working together. He worked hard himself, and then ':olhen the announcement r..;as made of course he was fighting mad. Who would not be? A man brought in here, ~rought into a town to save something and was working on it! He has saved $7 million so far. He has only ~een there four ~onths.

Jut in order to continue to save and to continue to cut dmm he is going to have to have a little bit of help, and cole are not >olilling to give it to hi:::1. \~e just decided that ·..;e ~.;ere going to close it down. It is crazy. I will go back to the attitudes of some oE the members 1.;ho spoke over there the other day, you know, tal::C.i:1g about the past administration and talking about money going around and talking about scandals and all that sort of thing. That is all they could coBe up with. I have listened to the debate on both sides of the House.

That is all you could cooe up ,.;ith, trying to smear the former administration.

~r a y 12, 19 77 Taoe no. 2588 Page 2 - ms Rear, hear! ~ffi.. HODDER: That is all you could come up with. And, you know, when you say , - wait until I get down to th~ last paper that I got here, I got two hours to go on that one. Just wait until I get down to that and see ':.rhat the savings the money would be. Why do you not go out and have a look at it? The mill in the ':vrong location, my foot! If that mill had been run properly there would not be any problems there. There would not be any problems today. He might hc:.ve lost a little bit of money along the 'lv2.y. That is another thing, Xr.

Speaker, that comes to my mind. You k.nm.;, Mr. Speaker, that any business you start takes awhile to get going. You know1 if Mr. Sr.•eeney had been there- what? - three.years ago, no problems. I believe in my heart that there would be no problems. And then r.•e hear the government nembers get ·up and talk about the past administration, and I have listened, in fact, I have not heard a thi~g over there yet. And then I hear the Finance Minister get up and give a bunch of figures, and we have got figures and he has got figures and, you know, nothing has come from that side.

The members, the backbenchers, nobody knows what is going on. MR. FLIGHT: ~-fR. DOODY: MR. FLIGHT: ~JR. HODDER: MR. RIDEOUT: MR. HODDER: the lack of It could have been the past administration. It is good you thought of it. They are not accepting their own - And this comes back to it, you know. (Inaudible) - you are the closest to him. You know, I just wonder if past prejudices and determination and the feeling that the thing '\-las not going to go to start with, if that was what actually caused that decision to be made. ~ow I wonder, because certainly nobody has ever taken a hold.

I got some words here by the former :-Iinis ter of Hines and C.:nergy, the Minister of Finance, made on December 10, 1975 where i1e says,"I said t"ien and I sc.y nm-1 it can never be econonically feasible." i~ow that was a man - and this goes back to my first point which I made - ~lR. ROBERTS: had. The most expensive minister that this country has ever

Xay 12, 1977 Tape no. 2588 Page 3- ms MR. HODDER. -"And ·I said then and I say now that it will always cost, it 1Yill always have to be assisted by the people of this Province." You ·knm.;r, this was a man r.iho was running the mill. Now how can you run a business. I ran a business~ I ran it successfully until I got into thfs racket . -

~fay 12,19 77 Tape 2589 (~~orning) AH-1 ~ffi. HODDER: I ran a business and if I had approached it in the fra~~ of mind that this cannot ~•ork,how in the name of goodness c.;ould I ever be able to make it survive - -if you do not believe in ~•hat you are doing? And -this is what I think is happening on that side, you did not believe in ~•hat you \•Tere doing. I heard - you knm•, talking about John C. Doyle and the Harmon buildings and other things of" the topic, Hr. Speaker, the Earmon buildings which were given to ~'fr. John C.

Doyle for $100,000 terrible, terrible that these buildings should be given for $100,000~a terrible thing~So they bought the buildings back and then they put them up on tender.And what was the tender? $l.OO!Ard for four years they just sat there and if it had not been for CMHC money and a couple of businessmen - one of them is still staving there, is still sitting there deteriorating where if it had not been for CHHC.1 s massive money and a couple of neople 1 s guts they ~Vould still be there. I doubt if they paid very much for them anyhow ..

Terrible, terrible, terri:,le: And is that what we are going to talk about,the sins of the past administration, Mr. Sneaker? Now just to \!et back - I do not knm• v7hat I am doin£ r.rith my notes here- just to get back to the Labrador wood. First of all-and again these are cases which only point out the worm or the disease that was inside of the mill~ you had large vrood 1 s camns. ~·fuen Bowaters and Price decided to go out of wood 1 s camps,- granted we had some problems to get some people to 1vork~ but there are lots of people willing to work in this Province.

They v;ill \vork in my district - they ~•auld have worked then, they r.o1ould have worked with private contractors, thev did~ but ·those large camps~ the ones that they had in Goose Bay, the ones that my friend from Eagle River talked about on the last day, those large r,mod camps ':vhich \vere staffed r,Jith ping-pong tables and - I went into one in Southwest Brook - imagine, and this was at a time T,rhen Bowaters and. Price had decided that 'they were not

~ay 12,1977 Tape 2589 c:~onir..

g) A.H-2 ~·lR. FODDER: going to have any more ':vood' s camps, t~ey were too ex~ensive, private contractors can do it better and private contractors did do it better because I can tell you one or two - I know t•.;o in Bay St. George that lvere delivering their wood to the mill at $40 a cord, that was a ~rivate contractor,but you did not get it from the l·l'Ood' s cam~s, those elaborate monstrosities that were in Labrador. }1r. Speaker, I dwelt for a little lvhile on markets a little while ago but,you know,that the markets -and the marketing report I understand is not in yet.

I can tell you that that particular report is going to be optimistic, I guarantee you that that report is going to be optimistic. So far I know of four re~orts and four of them are optimis-tic. I do not know how many more came or where the government got their information. But it says here-this is an

article r:rhich came from Fortune magazine and I oarticularly use this one not because \¥e would rely on Fortune magazine before we >·muld rely on other figures,but the fact that I have read so many reports on marketing and what is going to hapoen in the future. This

article is entitled the "The Paper Makers are Growing Less and Enioving it More" and it says that'"uemand is growing strongly for such basics as printing'papers and corrugated cartons. These items may at times be hard to come by and only at ver; high prices in the future." And they go on to say .that, "You would expect an industr; in this situation to be im~roving, building new mill& They are not doing it, As a matter of fact they should be increasing their production by four per cent and they are only increasing it by some1vhere around 2.5 per cent a year.'' And this re~ort goes on to say, Ur.

Speaker, that the lack of linerboard may actually hinder the economy of the loi'orld, it may keep it back in the 1980's.

}-[ay 12,1977 Tape 2589 (~~orning) AP.-3 ~ · ffi.. HODDER: Nm.; here we are with a man out in Stephenville who says,"Give me $12.5 million and let me change the head-wood converter,

:fay !.2 , 1 9 77 Tape ~o. 2590 NM- 1 ~-fR. J. HODDER: give me some pulper screens, give me some screens that we can have a second phase recycling of fibre '"hich is wasted at the mill at the moment, redesign the condensate system, install new bark presses which will save on fuel, it has been done before~ 1 The appendix of these things say these things have been done before. Install a turbo generator so we can save on bunker C, you knmJ ,with the best companies in the world, the best, the very best in the world who have come back. They have 'rritten the letters.

The letters are all there and they have come back and said, "These are the things that you can do. Do these things for us and I can make it go for you. The markets are going up. Tne wood supply is no longer a problem." The Premier told me that the wood supply is no longer a problem. He told myself and the member for Stephenville (Mr. McNeil) that is no longer a problem. Well, Mr. Speaker, I ~~ baffled. We have rot Alternative Products Lines Committee. You read the appendix. You read carefully through what all the present conditions for Linerboard, supply-demand trends.

There was one interesting thing in one of those reports \ though, Mr. Speaker, They talk about other countries. I do not know if I can find it here now. Oh yes, this is done by a co~pany from Finland and they talk about what can be expected in paper mill construction and from the paper industry. They say in Scandanavia there may be little expansion because of scarcity of raw materials. But in Canada~they say~ there may be little expansion for psychclogical reasons. ~ow, ~r. Speaker, I can see a psychological reason here in this Province, the psychological reason is that they do not have the guts to keep it going.

They do not have the guts to take the chance. They do not have the guts to let that man and let the present management operate the thing properly. Thev are afraid of it. They do not like it. It rubs them the wrong '"ay. You know~it gets too much criticism. They are afraid to make

~iay 12, 1977 Tape ~o. 2590 N""M - 2 ~ffi. J. HODDER: a mistake. The ideal thing to have done some time ago was to give it to an independent . board of directors. You know,you finally stumbled and maybe for other reasons onto a way to make the mill ;.rork, to put a proper board of directors in place and let them run the mill. And the Newfoundland Govenunent asks ,.,here are the profits? Or make it break even? That is what you have to do; if you do not do it you are gone. That is what we have to do, not this sort of thing. A letter from John C.

Crosbie, Xinister of Intergovernmental Affairs, "if any problem arises '\vith any of the contractors involved in supplying the 46,500 cords of wood, feel free to handle them in the same manner as you would under normal circumstances," Not governr.1ent interference, I do not suppose! You know~I mean when you have got the minister running it from the Confederation Building . and every little item must be looked into, feel free to run it you know as you would any other. Re actually gave some permission.

I would like to deal with this document a little bit more. ~-fy friend and colleague from Stephenville brought it into the House the other day, but '\.J'e '\vere talking about business~ you know.,and I started talking earlier right from the beginnin:s~ and the big problem then of course ~s start up. That is normal; the problem was the.boats,which you know about, and the farce that went on there and the problems w"i.th the wood camps. I mean, just these thing _s, they do not cost much money, only millions of dollars!

But this is the most amazing thing, when the financial statements were tabled here in the Rouse, I got an accountant friend of mine to go over them, and he said, "You know, this financial statement would be a lot better except for their inventory," and here,and again I cannot help but stress it again, but here in l976,when the markets were going soft, this was July 9th. , this particular document comes some'.-Jhere before that, there is a number on it, an IGA 17-76. When the markets were going soft they asked, as any management would do, that the mill cut its production by 40.9 per cent across the board,

~!ay 12, 1977 Tape ~o . 2590 ~B. . J . P.ODuER.: They wanted that reduction because ,let us face it, if you are running a business , Mr. Speaker, and you find that p~ople are no t buying anymore; you know~if you are running a clot!ling store and you used to get twenty customers and you are only getting ten, you do not continue to bring in suits of clothes; hundreds and hundreds and hundreds . 1 wonder who ~hey intervened to protect? NH - J ~ . ROBERTS: ~!R . J . RODDER: Well that is an interesting question. You talk about the Canada Bay Lumber Company here and the whole thing , I really could not say . ~!R .

ROBERTS: ~IR . J. HODDER: \-That company? The Canada Bay Lumber Corn~any as ~entioned in the -

~y 12, 1977 MR.. ROBERTS: MR. HODDER: ~ffi.. ROB.ERTS: Tape no. 259 1 Who owns Canada Bay Lumber? I do not know. Page 1 - ms ifuo is the general manager of Canada Bay Lumber? Is he connected with the administration in power? ~fR. LUNDRIG&'i: All, yes, yes, yes. MR. HODDER: All interesting questions. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, yes, yes and yes. The general campaign manager for the Tory Party in the last election is the general manager of Canada Bay Lumber. How much profit does he make out of it? Let us keep it going,but let us not charge it against Linerboard. HR. HODDER: That is right. MR.

ROBERTS: Do not make the people of Bay St. George pay to support a gentle~an connected with the Tory Party. MR. FLIGHT: AN HON . ~fEME ER : MR. ROBERTS: ~-!R. CA!.'mi~G: Scandal upon scandals. Lundrigan. Lundrigan and ~fr. Bowaters - It is going to be the grandfather of scandals, the Linerboard mill before you are finished >vith it. NR. HODDER: ~. ~ORGk\1: ~. ROBERTS: Anyhow ~.;ith references ;nade there, ~r. Speaker - Are you speaking in the same debate? Yes, I am speaking in the same debate, and he is making a magnificent speech. The minister would be \Jell advised to try to emulate.

If the minister could even make a speech half as good he would be an important person. NR. DINN: ~fR. ROBERTS: up - ~1R. HODDER: (Inaudible) . The gentleman from Pleasantivlle (~r. Dinn) comes Here is a statement, }'Ir. Speaker. Here is a business decision, you see, here is a problem, see. Yes, this is what you call a good business decision. If the mill were being run as it should be run, as you would run your business, you would cut dor..-n on inventory_, -- ~ ..

Xay 12, 1977 Tape no. 2591 Page 2 - ms Hr. Hodder. you know, as I was talking about the closing thing. If the mill were run that way and, you know, then when your customers declined, like the customers in Stephenville are starting to decline, like the businessmen in Stephenville ~t the present time are starting to suffer .-they are cutti~g back on their inventory, Mr. Speaker. They will not have any inventory in a very short time. But the statement here says,"Some of them have not fully recovered and are still having difficulty meeting financial commitments.

We cannot cut back~'' This thing was said, i.Je cannot cut ~ack on those contractors because of problems, because of their problems of meeting financial commitments. Now, Mr. ~peaker, I understand if I TN"ere a woods contractor, .and I were selling to a mill, I T.YOuld T..J"ant to keep to continue to sell. Everybody would. The clothing manufacturer would want to continue to keep selling new clothing. But the thing is that a business decision has to be made.

If you have salt markets, and you cannot turn over, and you cannot turn over your - it is no good stockpiling the stuff, you cannot sell it, then you have got to cut down on your inventory. But the answer came back that our problem is that ~.;e got problems with our woods contractors. But it says, On the other hand the company has done everything possibly short ofvbuying the extra wood and stockpiling it to ensure that the suppliers of pulpwood are looked after. They were more interested in looking after the suppliers than they were about the mill. That is the problem. :Jm.; here is the thing.

This one really pains me, really hurts. The company has curtailed its own operations resulting in 250 men in Bay St. George being without any employment this year. That is when the buses stopped coming to my district. That is when I felt the crunch. I felt it long before the member for Stephenville. That is when they stopped. And do you know what they did: They continued to bring the most expensive wood - when they are asked to cut down by forty per cent - they continui to bring the most expensive wood into Bay St. George for the mill. MR. ROBERTS: The government made them do it.

}fay 12, 19 77 Tape no. 2591 Page 3 - ms MR. HODDER. And they say this is a tremendous loss we have had this year. You go all the way down to Green Bay .- you knm•, the wood ~.ras CO!:ling in from Green Bay, from the Hinis ter of }fines and Energy 1 s district, the wood 'vas still coming from Labrador, they did not curtail operations for the most expensive wood. But for t~e ~.;ood that was costing them $40 a cord, which was being cut by local contractors in Bay St. George, they laid them all off. That is my people on the Peninsula. That is my people on the Peninsula.

And do you knm.; T..;here they are working no\v? They are over in Nova Scotia. They are cutting ':vood in ~ova Scotia,most of them. MR. ROBERTS: The government's resettleme~t progranme. MR. HODDER: Yes, the resettlement prograrnne. MR. \.ffiiTE: ?arzival Copes. XR. ROBERTS Yes, I think Parzival Copes had been intending to sav it, but I think the government - ~. HODDER: I listened to the Ministet of ~ines and Energy the other night. I never heard in my life such an assault on the ear drums. As he said, a h2.rangue, an assault. HR. RIDEOUT: A kindergarten debater. MR.

HODDER: He said, These are small amounts you are talking about. Wait now,we are going to get into some small a~ounts in a little while, Mr. Speaker. But these are small amounts. These little things will not make the mill turn over. The3~ are just small a~ounts. And then he went on. I do not know what he was talking about. He was just shouting. He never said one thing that was sensible. I have -not heard a thing that came from that side of the House sensible yet in this debate. I am waiting with eager antici?ation. Hr.

Speaker, just to get back to those tT..;o re?orts here, the Alternate Lines Comdittee report, the Capital Requi~ements Committee report; I would j~st like to stress that again- the press have not ·--

~Eay 12,1977 Tape 2592 C·1orning) ll.!!-1 ~fR HODDER: these t~o reports do not say close the mill~ these are preliminary reports. Then w·e have a ~.;ood harvesting report ~hich is not pessimistic;it is very optimistic,I can tell you that nmV'. He have a market forecast report ~hich is being prepared at this moment and every graph is going forty-five degree angle up straight. lmd 1V'e have people in the industry at the moment ~orried -as I said before,that the industry is going to be, that the whole world economy might be hurt by a lack of linerboard in time to come. :TOT.v, Hr.

Speaker, 'vhen the ~linister of Finance told us he T.Yas going to give us all documents that we needed, all oertinent documents ,~.,hen are we going to get them? I am afraid I am not going to get that Hood's report before you do. But ~.;hen are ~e going to get it? ~.Jhy can we not have it? T,.Jhy can ~•e not have all this tabled in the House and let the press, let ~1 e,vfoundland, let everybody see just l•ihat the recommendations of this board 1.;ere_, because something is rotten. AN RON c·LEHBER: Rear, hear~ MR. HODDER: As Shakespear would say in the state of Denmark.

AN RON. ~ffi· £BER: MR. :=!ODDER: Something to hide or they would come out with it. \ Something is 1vrong. It does not make sense. And then T.<le get that - I do not have the report which 1.;as tabled in the House, but those little words, those words there,~hey are~ and I understand this ~.;as fought over, this 1vas fought over but they ended up saying, The operation and the board cannot recommend continuin~ operations in their present form.

Certainly not in their present form, certainly not~\<le need some of those things, ~..;e need some improvements, the dry land system, some imnrovements in the mill to save money. And all those imnrovements, ::~r. Speaker, are improvements to save money. Theya.re not improvements to lose money and we have had some improvements

~fay 12,1977 Tane 2592 C.!orning) AH-2 ~fR • HODDE?, : dmm there that did not, ~·[r. Speaker, before I get into the main part of my speech I must talk about this transcript and the statements of the minister - it all comes in together. You see, this government realized they w·ere in a financial pinch t1.ro years ago.

Last year I talked about the Hoods Gordon - Report and the fact that they went over there and said that ~•e were going to close, and 'when this government realized t~at thev - . . - - -. - . were in a uinch they decided to close it then .That Advisory Board has to be a smoke screen because why, why would you have all the reports going into the committee, why would you have a bunch of consultants dmm in the United Stares saying the mill is going to ·close ?~fuy would you then have another document . that comes on the desk like this, a preliminary r·eoort, a preliminary report on nothing~ Hhat kind of a preliminary report is it?

Theydid not get anythi:r"!g~ Who '"rote that? It must have been the secretary, it must have been the secretary of the Advisory Board. You know,it 1.;as not Mr. Sweeney,that is for sure. AN HON :f£1BER ~ The minister - :ffi. HODDER: The reports have not been in, they are not all.in yet,and that is the preliminary report. So,you know,it is obvious that somehow or other Mr. Tittemore has gone to ground.I do not think anybody has been able to find him since. I knm.; the ne'>TS media have not been able to find him.

And then the admission is made, the most damaging admission that a government could make-it boggles the mind- the government has actually said that 1.;e have 'run the Province into the hole. That is what they have said. You l.:now,the Minister . of Forestry and A~riculture did not have to say that. ~1R. FLIGET: At least they are honest. ~ - ffi. EODDER: Oh,they are honest~ Oh,I say the Hinister of 'Finance is a honest man and so is the Xinister of Forestry and Agriculture, honest men.

Oh, yes: The1·1inister of Justice is an honest man too He adll".itted yesterday that they •..:ent up to Otta~..:a to get bailed out.Oh,yes! ?-lathing about any proper plans,a:nd he also admitted

:~ay 12,19 77 Tape 2592 ( :~ orni ng ) AR-3 :rn. HODDER: that they ,.;ent at t:Ce last moment, Oh, he admitted that~ And the Xinister of Finance is an honest man.He admitted that the Province is on t3e verge of bankruptcy~that is what he has admitted. And this particular document here- and He have the tapes of the ~.;hole meeting- but ,.;e have problems ••ith the bond market, Oh my, }fr. Speaker, ~~hen you tl:link _about it I can understand why my friend and colleague from Stephenville >.;rent beserk here in the Rouse the other day when he thought about it.

The fact that the whole area, the '•hole underp'innings of Bay St. George had been_ torn apart because of mismanagement of this government. And then vou get members on the other side of the House standing up, they stand up and they say "Oh, the past administration should not have been there"and all that sort of thing and that is the truth, that is the truth. The people in ~.J'all Street are. running this Pro,Tince, that is what is happening. ~ .... ROBERTS: The government have abdicated. ~- CM~TING: Crosbie ran the- MR. MUP.PHY: True. MR. EODDRR: Oh,the last five years they hav·e been nmning it, ~!r. Speaker, ~.

HURPRY: (Inaudible) MR. HODDER: And then this poor man again, ~- ~r. S~veeney, the Labrador Linerboard boss~fighting mad about closing and make. no wonder~ Let tlS ls~.

Xay 12, 1977 Tape 2593 (Xorning) PK - 1 Mr. Hodder: Let us look at, . now just _l _et: .us look at Bay._St. George. MR. SMALLWOOD : Would the hon. member oblige me by reading out the figures that Mr. Sweeney says can be done,operating loss and profit., for the three years running, this year and the next two years? MR. HODDER: Okay, to complete the head wood conveyor savings due to densl.ty delivered cost/ d..ensity delivered costs - HR. SMALLWOOD: No, no. Half way down. HR. HODDER: Oh cash in,cash out that sort of thing? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR. HODDER: Oh, yes. Well the cost of the improvement - MR.

S¥..ALLWOOD: No, no, no, no! In one paragraph he said, That the losses operating can be reduced this year to that, and the n~~t to that, and the third year a profit. HR. HODDER: Right. Well they have it done here in, you know - the amount - MR. SMALLi~OOD: No, no, no, the ~tatement by - MR. HODDER: It is important to note that a programme such as this - MR. SMALLWOOD: In The Financial Post. MR. HODDER: Oh in The Financial Post. Well it is the same thing, he is reiterating itright here. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SMALLHOOD: Half-way down. MR. ROBERTS: Labrador Linerboard fighting - I MR.

HODDER: "On the operation side~Sweeney says, he can save $6 million per year with an additional investment of $12 million. MR. SMALLHOOD: No. MR. HODDER: One idea is to install a steam turbine generator? MR. SMALUlOOD: Further down. MR. HODDER: llThe price per ton was cited as the government's reason for closing the mill~ With the market price of $188 per ton, it is said that the mill manufacturing cost was $403. Sweeney says

May 12, 1977 Tape 2593 ("\forni "'<:>) -. • -- ••o PK - 2 Mr. Hodder: that w~th the value of the Canadian dollar the market price is now closer to $210 per ton~~ MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. HODDER: No. kook tooth &!d nail! that paragraph. ''Sweeney is fighting tooth and nail to keep open what is one of the largest~most modern Linerboard Mills in the world." Am I ~n the right track now? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes,go on. MR. SIMHONS: You ere on the right track now. ~. HODDER: 11 He rates his chances of one in three . 11 MR. Sl-f .. ALUlOOD : Yes~go on. MR.

HODDER: 11 First of all he must convince the government that it will not be the financial burden everyone thinks~' MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes~go on. MR. HODDER: "Sweeney feels that the most persuasive method is example. And the short time he has been in Stephenville the former Vice-President for Consolidated Bathrust Limited has managed to save the operation $6 million." MR. SMALLWOOD: Now then,the next sentence. MR.

HODDER: 11 In addition he has been in his thirty-five year career of pulling the unprofitable paper mills - of pulling v unprofitable paper mills out of the red that he can get the mill's operating loss down to $14 million by year end 1977, MR. SMALL~OOD: That-is this year? MR. HODDER: Next year, in a turn around MR • . SMALLWOOD: No, you are reading it too fast. MR. HODDER: - six mil profit in 1979-1980. MR. SMALLWOOD: I cannot follow it. Too fast. I cannot follow it. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SHALLWOOD: Slow. Lingeringly. AN RON. MEMBER: Slowly. MR. SMALLWOOD: What -

May 12, 1977 Tape 2593 (Hornir:

g) PK - 3 ~. HODDER: Okay here we go again. XR. SMALLWOOD: - would the cost be this year? MR. HODDER: 11 Sweeney feels the most persuasive method is example. And the short time he has been at Stephenville the former Vice-President of Consolidated Bathrust Limited has managed to save the operation $6 million. In addition he is betting his thirty~five year career of pulling unprofitable mills out of the red if he can get the mill's operating loss down to $14 million by the year end 1977 - $6 million .. MR. SMALLWOOD: No. Take it easy~ Take it easy! Then go on. MR. HODDER: All right. Six million - MR.

SMALLWOOD: Loss. MR. HODDER: Eight million next year. MR. SMALLWOOD: Six to eight. MR. HODDER: Yes. MR. S}f..ALLWOOD: And the third year. MR. HODDER: And the third year, and turn a $3 million, then $6 million profit in 1979-1980. MR. SMALUJOOD: And that was the office boy who said that? The messenger? The man who sweeps the floors? MR. HODDER: No~that is not the office boy, that is not the messenger, that is not the clerk - MR. FLIGHT: Thirty-five years of ~xperience. MR. HODDER: That is the President and General Manager of Labrador Linerboard Limited. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Thirty-five years of experience. MR.

HODDER: Thirty-five years experience, ~fr. Speaker. Oh, Mr. Speaker, only if we could have him come in and talk to us in the House. A.."f RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). SOME RON. NEMBERS: Oh, oh!

~1c.y 12' 1977 Tape 2593 (Morning) PK - 4 ~!R. HODDER: ~~en they vote for o~r motion . AN RON. MB-ffiER: Oh, oh ~ MR. iffiiTE: Bring him· in the House and set up the T.V. sets like •..1e had - -~~ RON . ME~ER: Ynirty-five years. MR. HODDER: NQw I would just like to talk fer a few minutes on what has happened in Bay St. George since the mill came,and why it is such a so terrible, terrible decision that the government has taken in li~ht of the facts that have come about since the decision was taken. Mr. Speaker, the town had been dovn •· wnen I ·moved into Bay St.

George I suppose there must be about 600 apartments on Base, on the Harmon portion of the town, and I had the pick of any ~ne I wanted, because there was just nobody living there, You could drive onto that road r..;h.:.ch comes past the Airpot"t: there, you could drive in, you could not see a light on Harmon, everything was closed, there •..tere big buildings there, nobody •.ras in them, just

:fay 12, 1977 Tape No. 2594 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: complete black - one or two lights showing here and there, the mill open. About six months ago there was a 400 family waiting list to get into those apartments. Every building is being used. Ithas come to the point now where there are no buildings for anybody who wants to set up on base. The whole thing has been utilized. The community, because of the mill, new schools went there, millions and millions of dollars of schools. I was Principal of a school in Stephenville.

I forget how much now it cost to build, but it had _ ~ home economics department, it had the best language la? in Newfoundland - better than ~iemorial University - its chemistry lab and its physics lab equipped comparable to any~ to suit any first year student in Merr.orial, lecture theatres, woodworking, metalworking, typing. Then a new school was built for the other denomination, the Roman Catholic School Board, even bigger, even better, even more facilities. Then the Pentecostal demonination, the congregation there had a school built.

And then we -had people move into the area who built new homes, they got big mortgages. We had businesses move into the area, new-businesses start up - a mall _ the shopping mall I think has 350 employees. That was a few months ago - 350 employees. They _!lave started to lay off now. No¥7 you talk about the multiplier thing. Once that mill goes, that mall goes. And anybo~y that can pay the rents in that type of structure and continue to exist y just has to lay off or run the thing themselves. The Woolworth store there took out all their telephones the other day.

They used to have interdepartment telephones ~ they took them out. That is the sort of pressure that is coming on. Even the big stores, they are having business problems. And the new homes - I was talking to a man in Bay St. George the other day and he said, "wnat should I do? Should I stay on? Do you think it is going to go?" I said, "I do not know. II I said, "Who am I . ., ""1ou know, II he said, "I have a mortgage, I want to live here. Hy wife and family are here, they like it here, they like the school system. Can you advise me? You are closer to it than I am. Would you advise me to stay on?" No.

I could not do it. I could not advise him one way or the other. I said, "I may be closer - you may think I am closer than you are. But I cannot give you any advice. I do not know what this government is going

May 12, 1977 Tape No. 2594 EC - 2 M..."l\. HODDER: to do, I do not know what they are going to do next." And there a-~~ pe~ple wringing their hands and wondering now about that decision. They still do not know. And do not hold out false promises. That is something. We do not like to hold out false promises. But on the one hand you are saying to · the people in the area, tStay, because we might be able to get something going. We will give you a big bonus if you stay.' But at the same time the mill is shut down. MR. FLIGHT: Government by the hour. MR.

HODDER: Now if a man has a $40,000 mortgage or a $25,000 mortgage and there is a chance of a job so~ewhere else, and you are saying 'Stay on this long,' and 'Ther~ is always hope. We are going to try to turn her around.' You know, 'We are closing her;but we are not closing her,' what does . he do? He is left - no false hopes there, no false hopes - no~ We are going to close her dmm, but stay. Now I wonder, Mr. Speaker, is that just a device just to keep the people there so that everybody does notdear out immediately, and then keep the thing going until the wooes inventory is used up? Is that a device?

I do not know. I hope not. I could not imagine that this government could ever come up with a scheme like that where they would fool around \vith people's lives to the extent - HR. CA.J.'lliiNG: MR. FLIGHT: MR. HODDER: I could. See - - that they would say, 'Stay on, because we might make her go,' so that they can use up the wood inventory. I cannot believe that. No, I do not believe it. The Hinister of Manpower HR. FLIGHT: MR. HODDER: Impossible. MR. FLIGHT: Could they do that? MR. HODDER: Did you think they would close it? - I do not believe he could do that. Did you believe they would close it?

Well, you know, t~e signs were there but I suppose it is just one of those things - you keep hoping agai