Volume 4 PROVl'NCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. J,MIIES RUSSELL ,. Number 24

April 3, 1975 The House met at 3:00. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 966 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to welcome to the galleries today twelve trainees from the Adjustment Training Programme in St. John's with teacher Mr. Gerald Bannister, on behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you to the galleries and trust that your visit here is most interesting. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. SIMMONS: I rise on a matter of personal - MR. EARLE: I rise on a matter of personal privilege. MR.

SPEAKER: I will recognize the honourable Member for Hermita ge following - unless the honourable Minister of Finance wishes to yield. MR. EARLE: On a matter of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker - MR.SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: I normally ignore anonymous letters but in this case I feel obliged to bring it to the attention of the House because it comes to me on the letterhead of the Leader of the Opposition and I know that the - SOME HON • MEMBERS : Inaudible. MR. DOODY: We knew that it was a crank letter. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: What do you mean letterhead? MR.

EARLE: It is on the House of Assembly, Leader of the Opposition's letterhead, addressed to the Minister of Finance and I know when he hears the content of the letter that he will not appreciate having some mental deviate or some crackpot using the stationary of the Leader of the Opposition to write such a letter. The letter reads as follows: "If you do not change your policy toward student-aid, your future may not be too bright. I would even go so far as to say that parts of your anatomy may be permanently damaged. This is no idle threat, Signed - Citizen Kane." 289"1

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 966 NM - 2 Obviously it is either a joke, Mr. Speaker, or some person who is completely off his rocker. As it is written on the Leader of the Opposition stationary, I would suggest to the House that they support me in having it passed over to the police for investigation, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I wish the honourable gentleman had mentioned it to me outside. I do not need to say, but I will say it for the record)that the letter was not sent by me or by anybody with my consent but if anybody has impounded a piece of my stationary - MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order, Sir, the Minister of Provincial Affairs, Mr, Speaker, said it was probably sent by Neary and I demand, Mr. Speaker, that that statement be withdrawn immediately, Sir, immediately. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!. Order, please! Order, please! I would like to inform the honourable Member for Bell Island a point of privilege takes precedence over a point of order. Secondly the Chair did not hear any comments uttered by the honourable Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. MR.

NEARY: Well, Sir, if I have got to enforce the rules of this honourable House myself I will go over and I will let him have it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, NEARY: Because I do not have to put up with this in this honourable House, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure the honourable Member for Bell Island can appreciate the Chair is here to enforce rules that are following procedure and the Chair did not hear any coilllllents made whatsoever, MR. NEARY: I heard him. MR. SPEAKER: Well,the Chair did not. MR. ROBE~TS: Mr. Speaker, the senior member for Harbour Main, his conduct speaks for itself.

We do not have to worry about that. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 2898

April 3, 1975 Tape NO. 966 NM - 3 MR . SPEAKER: Order, please ! MR. ROBERTS: As I was saying if t he Minister of Finance wants to send it t o the police 1 would be all for it. l would be as interested as he is to assess this communicat ion. 1 would also be interested to know how my letterhead came to be involved . I can think of a number of ways, includin g leavi~ it on the desk here in the House which I often do, but if he wants t o send it to the police, fine. I do think it is a bit of an over-reaction.

But I will again say, just for the record, I do not think the minister n.eeds that assurance, but I will give it to him anyway in the House, that it was not sent by me or by anybody , intluding any of my colleagues or my office or anyone else with my knowl edge and consen t . l would be interested to know who did send it. 289~ ,-

April 3, 1975 Tape 967 (Afternoon) MR. ROBERTS: And how did it come to the minister? Is it typed or handwritten? AN HON. MEMBER: Typed. Through the mail. MR. ROBERTS: Typed. Through the mail. AN HON. MEMBER: Delivered to my office. MR. ROBERTS: Delivered. Well then let us by all means if the minister wants, Mr. Speaker, to send it to the police, and let us PK - 1 check the type letters. The typewriter has a signature on it. I would be interested to see just who did send it.

Whatever my political views of the minister's or whatever views of the minister's political conduct I do not think we need to do that, this type of thing. MR. SPEAK.ER: The Hon. Member for Hermitage. MR. R'..: Silll·tONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege as well. The matter in which I rise relates to the unprecedented and vicious attack on me by the Member for Bonavista South. I regret he is not in his chair today. I would must prefer to do this in his presence but as I understand the House rules I am to raise this matter at the first possible opportunity.

We made an effort to raise it yesterday at 6:00 but the Speaker left the Chair saying it was 6:00 of the clock. And so I now raise it at what I feel is the first opportunity. If the House feels it is more appropriate to raise it in the member's presence I am quite prepared to wait until he comes. But I rise now, Mr. Speaker, because I understand if I do not do so now, I will forfeit my opportunity of . . doing so. In that context, conscious of the fact that the member to whom I refer is not present, it is in that context that I nevertheless raise it at this particular time.

I refer, of course, to the completely unparliamentary and very vicious remarks made by the Member for Bonavista South - AN HON. MmmER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: The kind of remarks, Mr. Speaker, that are most unbecoming of this House, most unneeded. He and I, Mr, Speaker, disagree on many matters and will continue to disagree, but I hope that we can at least maintain the decorum of the House when we address each other or refer to each other through the Chair. And the remarks I heard yesterday 2900

April 3, 1975 Tape 967 (Afternoon) PK - 2 in this House, and I did hear them, I have not had an opportunity to get the tapes. I have requested the Editor of Debates to produce a transcript for me. But the remarks I heard yesterday afternoon and have been substantiated by others who heard the remarks, and have been substantiated by the daily press today, are the kind of remarks that we should never hear in this House. There was a personal threat there where the individual, the Member for Bonavista South verbally threatened to cross the House - and I foget the exact terms. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEAFY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: MR. SIMMONS: MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: action. MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Inaudible. Order, please! Inaudible. Order, please! Oh keep quite Pooh! Order, please! Inaudible. I gather the senior - Just another remark like that ••.• I gather the senior member condones this kind of Order, please! I do not condone it at all. I agree with it. Order, please! Why do you not button your lip!

Honourable members to my left and to my right seem to persist in interrupting an honourable member whet'. the Chair is trying to hear a point of privilege. And I certainly request honourable members on both my left and right to remain silent. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying the }1ember for Bonavista South did threaten to cross the floor and punch me in the mouth. Now on that matter I would pe prepared to take him on any time, but that is not the issue. HON. MEMBERS : Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: The issue, Mr.

Speaker, is whether a member of this House is permitted to say that kind of thing and get away with it. That is the issue. !Ie also referred to me as something to the affect the 2901

April 3, 1975 Tape 967 (Afternoon) PK - 3 dirtiest politician that he had ever known. Whether or not he thinks that, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEl-IBER: MR. SIMMONS: AN HON. MEMBER: mi. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: Inaudible. Well he would know. Inaudible. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, whether or not the Member for Bonavista South happens to thin~ that about me is also beside the point. I submit that he does not have the right under the rules of this House to say that kind of thing. And I am asking the Chair to have the member withdraw these remarks without qualification.

I have a motion which I am prepared to put, and can rut now if it is the appropriate time? I would like the Speaker's - MR. SPEAKER: All matters of privilege according to Beauchesne should be accompanied by a motion which the Chair is willing to hear. MR. SU1MONS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: HR. NEARY: MR. "ROBERTS: r-m. CROSBIE: :!IN HON. MEMBER: MR. SI !HONS: HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSBIE: to decide - MR. SDJMONS: HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SillMONS: 2902 In that event, Mr. Speaker, I would like to - If the honourable member would permit me for a moment.

The Speaker - Yes, I want to address myself to the Speaker's request. Inaudible. make the motion and then .••. Well - I will make it but I •.•• No, Mr. Speaker, it does not matter whRt he wants to say - Inaudible. Order, please! To that point of privilege. It is up to the Speaker I have - Inaudible. Order, please! The Speaker has decided already. As I understand it the Speaker has recognized me?

April 3, 1975 Tape 967 (Afternoon) PK - 4 MR. SPEAKER: The Chair wishes to say that it feels that it will take the whole matter under advisement. And H the honourable Member for 'Hermitage - if the 'Chair decides that the honourable Hember for Hermitage has established a prima facie case then,of course, his motion can be debated . He can put tbe motion but if the Chair decides that there is no prima facie case established then, of cours e , that is the end of it . MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 290::J

April 3, 1975. Tape 968 RH - 1 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS : No, Mr. Speaker. Do I have the floor, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on a - I would like to address myself - MR . SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I am now standing on a matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair recognizes the honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to move, seconded by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition that the remarks made by the Member for Bonavista South last evening, the remarks to which I have referred constitute a breach of the privileges of this House and that he be ordered by the Speaker to withdraw these remarks with­ out qualification and that should the member fail to withdraw these remarks without qualification, he be suspended from the House for one day. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair will take the whole matter in advisement and rule on it as soon as possible. The honourable Minister of Fisheries . MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, if I am permitted now to address myself to this question at all, I would like to address myself to the question of this point of privilege. There has been nothing - MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order - MR. CROSBIE: No, there has been nothing - MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTB: To a point of order, Sir.

As I understand the Minister of Fisheries,he proposes now to enter into a discussion on the merits of this question, If that is in order, I would be anxious to do it, but I would ask Your Honour to rule whether or not it is in order because if the Minister of Fisheries is allowed to say a few words on this andlto quote him, to address himself to the point, then in all fairness,and I know Your Honour would do this, gentlemen on this 2904

April 3, 1975. Tape 968 RH - 2 are this side are allowed to speak to it as well. So I would ask Your Honour - Your Honour has said Your Honour is going to reserve the question and consider it. Now, is it now a matter for debate or for further connnent or not, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The Chair would prefer, of course, that no further connnents were made re this matter until such time as the Chair rules as to whether or not the honourable member has established a prima facie case.

If the Chair decided that there has been a prima facie case established, then all honourable members will have the opportunity to speak to the motion as made by the honourable Member from Hermitage. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the regulations under the Retail Sales Act, 1972 as amended. MR. ROBERTS: Are there many copies of this act? MR. EARLE: You will get more copies. This is the only one I have at the moment. MR. ROBERTS: We would like - ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Connnunications. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I was asked a question yesterday by the honourable Member for Fogo. He is not in his seat, but I would like to answer the question. I will give him the information privately at a later time. He asked about some watchmen who were given their layoff notices and this is departmental policy. The districts, district one, two and four have already laid off the watchmen. This is the district, district three where that policy is now being proceeded with.

The watchmen are now retained only in depots and in sub-depots and sub-depots are defined as depots where substantial extensive repairs are done and two of them only would fall under that definition in district three,which is the one we are referring to now,that would be at Lumsden in SpringdalF. The rest of the depots are referred to as unit depots. 290ti

April 3, 1975. Tape 968 RH - 3 Now, we had quite a number of people, I have a list of some here but we had another list that during the winter were changed over to other jobs. So they did not lose their jobs and the people here will have termination notices in respect of their present job as watchman up to April 20 and April 30. Every effort will be made, of course, to place these people in - MR. ROBERTS: How many were laid off? MR. ROUSSEAU: What do you mean, in - the watchmen? About twenty and they went on the winter machinery work. There are about twenty more involved.

They will either probably have involuntary demotion or whatever to a labourers class so that we can keep them on the payroll or every effort will be made to put them on the payroll. They have seniority. MR. ROBERTS: Are they covered in the union agreement? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, and we will try and do what we can. Of course, some of them may want to retire because they have a number of years worked and maybe want earlier retirements. So, I can just assure the honourable Member from Fogo that it is a policy that eixsts in the department with the other three districts.

It has now been extended to district three and that effortswill be made to have these people retained in their positions with the department in one way or another, or some other way in which they might wish to have early retirement or anything of that nature. 2906

April 3, 1975 Tape 969 (afternoon) rn-1 MR. SPEAKER: I note the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy was rising. Does he have an answer to a question? MR. BARRY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table the answer to a question. question number fourteen by the member from nell Island . The answers are no, not applicable and not applicable. OR.AL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if in view of the number of complaints that we are receiving daily from delegations and individuals who come to Confederation Rui]ding to visit the Premier's office an~ to see the Premier, I wonder if the honourable the Premier could inform the House if he has any special time during the week or during the day when delegations can visit his office or individuals can drop in and see the Premier when they come in, especially from outside of St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. HON. F.D. MOORES (PREMIER): Mr.

Speaker, it is fair to say that whenever I have the opportunity I meet with delegat1 ons. There a.re also the Member from Trinity North and Mr. George and Mr. Sullivan, who work with my office,who meet delP.gations as often as possible. Nine chances out of ten, Sir, the delegations are in on departmental business as opposed to any specific business that would <lea] with my office. Certainly arrangements are made for them to see the ministers in the departments. That basically, hopefully is ~,hat they require and what can serve them best.

But certainly I only wish, Sir, that I did have the time to meet all the delegations, but, as the honourable member well knows, there is a great deal of work in that office, and, as I say, if they have seen the department which they are primarily interested in, I think that is the primary concern. When possihle I see them myself. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the Premier tell the House then if, in view of the bottleneck that 1;1pparently is taking place if - 290i

April 3, 1975 Tape 96g (afternoon) HON. J.C. r.ROSRIF. (MINISTER 01' FINANCE): Order! Order, Mr. Speaker. MP. SPEAKEP: Order, please! MR. r.ROSJHE : Order! That is not a question, Mr. ~peakP.r. ~- NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, would the honourable the Premier tell us if it is his intention in the foreseeable future to make himself rB-2 more accessihle to delegations and to individuals that come to Confederation Ruilding? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That question is argumentative. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the answer the Premier gave me to the first question, Sir, I am dissatisfied with and I wish to debate it at the late show at 5: 30 this afternoon. '111 .• SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation and Connnunications. I wonder would the minister indicate to the House when he intends to supply the House -i-,ith the information concerning the list of projects, upgrading and paving projects to be undertaken by his department this year? 1'lR.

SPF:AKER: The honourahle the Minister of Transportation and Commun1 cations. JlON. J.R. POTTSSEAU .(J,11 TSTEP OF TRA SPOR't'ATION AND C0!-1MUNICATIONS): cannot answer that now. We have certain arrangements, of course, to complete with URF.E. There will he a joint announcement at that time and consirleration will be given. We are developing a policy now,and as soon as we are in a position to we will. MR. SIM¥0NS: Mr. Speaker, in view of the announcements I am hearing from various ~overnment members, I am not particularly satisfied with that answer and I would like to debate it on the Late Show at 5:30.

MR • SPFAKER : Orel.er, please! MR. CROSRJE: This is not question, Mr. Speaker. It is apparently a long preamhle and assumptions of fact. AN HONOURAllLF. MF.!-IBER: Oh, sit do~m. fit down. SOME HONOURAJlLE MEMBERS: Inaudible. Mll.. SPEAKER: Order, please! 2908 I

April 3, 1975 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker - AN HONOURABLE "MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 969 (afternoon) MR. SIW,!ONS: He will suppress it but only for so long. Mr. Speaker, I am not satisfied with the answer I got from the minister, and I would like to debate it this evening during the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: A question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIMMONS: You were not listening for the question, bul]y boy. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. F.

ROWE: In view of the fact, Sir, that storms this time of the year, snow storms, track up the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Ifl-3 Straits of Belle Isle and dump the huge quantities of snow on the Northern Peninsula,and the snow storms cease in the Southern part of the Province around this time of the year, ),as the minister given any consideration to moving the machinery from the Southern regions of the Province onto the Great Northern Peninsula to cope with the problem? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the "!inister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

ROUSSEAU: This is the honourable Member from Bell Island - yes, I thought this question may be raised today, and I have some in formation in respect to - I presume the honourable member is talking about the District of St. Barbe North. Yes. Well, right now,just if I may, I have some information on St. Barbe North. Presently up there we have eighte.en snow plows and three sand trucks, two loaders with snow clearing attachments owned by the department and six are hired. We have three dozers, two of which are not operable at the moment, hut the other one is operable.

We have five graders with snow cle.aring attachments, two snow blasts a11r1 three sand trucks. Now 2909

April 3, 1975 Tape 970 (Afternoon) PK - 1 at this point in time the District Director from Deer Lake advises there is ample equipment in this area at this time. However if we feel there is not enough of equipment certainly we would be prepared to move it up from some area of the Province which is not undergoing the same snowfalls as the Northern Peninsula. So at this point in time I am advised by officials that there is ample equipment there. But 7like I say,should more equipment become necessary we will certainly move it up. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary.

Is the minister aware of the fact, Sir, that there are certain roadsblocked, particularly roads leading into communities, branch roads, and that parts of the Great Northern Peninsula have only one cut, you know, of one-way traffic on it. So it seems incredible that there is adequate machinery under these circumstances. MR. ROUSSEAU: All I can say is that, you know, the people up there tell me there is ample equipment. You know, I am not up there to see. And I do not doubt - MR. :ROBERTS : MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. ROBERTS: MR. ROUSSEAU: men up there. man in Deer Lake. Yes. Inaudible.

But the man in Deer Lake is checking with the But, you know, if they feel there is not enough up there 1then good, and we are checking that out. I brought the matter to their attention to make certain, because I know there is a snowfall up there. But we will leave it in their hands. And as soon as we feel that more equipment is needed it will be moved up. I give the member that undertaking, you know. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on this - a point of order.

I wish to give Your Honour notice that in connection with the Member for Hermitage and the rules of this House that I want to put it to you under rule Standing Order 31 (

g) that there has been no oral question asked by the Member for Hermitage nor has there been any answer that a member could not be satisfied with. And I simply want to point out that I submit to you there is no subject matter of any question to 2910

April 3, 1975 Tape 970 (Afternoon) PK - 2 be raised on the adjournment of the House by the Member for Hermitage. There has been no question asked, and no answer given, so the gentleman can hardly be dissatified with the answer. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that poi~t of order. My colleague the gentleman for Hermitage asked the Minister of Transportation and CoDD11unications a question. If Your Honour wished to consult the tapes, the transcripts would not be prepared yet, but the question is there, the Hon. Member for Labrador West, the Minister for Transportation and Communications answered the question.

The Member for Hermitage found the answer unsatisfactory. And subject only to a notice being sent to Your Honour is required under 31 (g), I submit all of the requirements under Standing Order 31 have been met, and the honourable member is entitled to raise the question at 5:30. And the minister may or may not answer as he sees fit. But there was a question asked. I do not remember the exact wording, but the question was something - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: a list of the roads project that the government intend to undertake this year.

And the minister said he did not know when he would be able to table it. My colleague found it unsatisfactory. There is no point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: It was the Chair's opinion that the Hon. Member for Hermitage did ask a question. But before the Chair announces what questions , will be debated at 5: 30 today, I will read the transcript, and listen to the tape and then establish as to what was said,if it is permitted. The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker I have a - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: question for the Hon. the Premier. The Hon. Premier, Sir, is probably - AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Inaudible. While I am waiting for the Hon. the Premier to come - oh he is coming back to his seat now, Sir. Sir, now that the Hon. the Premier is back from Bermuda, could the Hon. the Premier clear 2911

April 3, 1975 up this matter - AN HON. MEMBER: Tape 970 (Afternoo .

n) PK - 3 Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Could the Hon. the PTemier clear up this matter of the use of the Churchill Falls jet to carry the Hon. the Premier and bis party to Halifax last week enroute to Bermuda on another one of his vacations? 'MR. SPEAKER: The Ron. the Premier. HON. F. I). MOORES (PREMIEll): Mr. Speaker, hardly on another one of my vacations.

However, I certainly will clear it up,in that, as the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and Fisheries mentioned last week, the fact is that the CFLCo aircraft is owned two-thirds by, I guess, the shareholders, by this Province, and one-third by the Province of Quebec. It is available to those people fo.r whatever purposes, but particularly in matters of business. Regarding my own situation,contrary to what the Member for Bell Island may think, and he is not likely to experience, the Office of Premier of this Province takes a great deal of time, and time is a very important factor.

The fact that that day I was going to get away was going to save two days, in fact, of being able to take a long weekend or a six day weekend, a six day week, if you like, off to relax over the Easter weekend after a fairly hectic schedule, the fact that a plane was available,that it was not being 2912

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 971 NM - 1 used by anybody else - except actually it did arrive from Churchill Falls with a group of people from Churchill Falls who were employees of the company,which is normal activity - the fact that it was going back at that time, the fact that I went back on it, I make no apologies for, Sir. I hope that explains it to the members satisfaction MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with that answer given me by the honourable the Premier and if I get the opportunity, Sir, during the Late Show this afternoon I would like to debate this matter.

Sir, I wonder if the honourable Minister of Social Services can inform the House if the government has taken any decision yet on a request from Teach-A-Tot to keep that day care centre going here in the City of St. John's, could the minister enlighten us on that matter? MR. MURPHY: Yes, we have taken a decision on it. Perhaps it is not as good a decision as we would like to take,but as far as we are concerned Teach-A-Tot will continue to operate, at what capacity I have no idea at this time. We have met with the groups.

I do not know if the member represents the executive or not, but we have met with them, and we have discussed it to the best of our ability and up to the present time we are still negotiating with them,but it will carry on. I say at what capacity it will carry on, whether they will have to reduce or not will depend on the monies available. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, supplementary: Has the minister advised the group yet of the government's decision because I do not know if the minister is aware, if he is not aware - perhaps the minister could tell us if he is aware that the centre is scheduled to close at the end of April if the minister does not advise the group of what the financial arrangements are going to be made between them and the Province. MR. MURPHY: I do not know who contacts the Member for Bell Island but I 2913

April 3, 1975 Tape No, 971 NM - 2 hope that my department is being contacted on the same thing, AN HON . MEMBER: Keep in contact, MR. MURPHY: Keep in contact, and I am sure that we are very much aware of what is happening and as I said I cannot go into it at the present time but negotiations are carrying on as to &ow long that group can carry on, how much money we can give Gander, how much money we can give Clarenville, now much money we can give Grand Falls and the other twenty-five places, I think one is contingent on the other. AN HON. MEMBER: Teach-A-Tot. MR, MURPHY: Teach-A-Tot, I know all about - MR.

NEARY: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: As soon as we get in touch with them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, supplementary - MR. MURPHY: Are you going to debate that too on the late show. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not have time, But-could the minister be a little more specific. Will they be contacted,today, next week, the day after tomorrow, next year, Christmas, when will they be notified? They are waiting for an answer, They cannot wait much longer, Sir, They have to make plans to close the place down if they do not get the answer. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: The honourable Member for Bell Island is proceeding to make a speech. MR. NEARY: Well~would the minister care to answer the question? MR. MURPHY: Yes, as soon as we hear officially f~em these people. We are in touch with them almost daily. I do not know where the honourable Member for Bell Island got to be spokesman for all these groups or not or for anything else - MR. NEARY: No, the people. I only speak for the people. MR. MURPHY: But they are quite happy as far as I know with what negotiations are going on with my department. MR.

ROBERTS: I have got a half dozen phone calls myself asking when they are - 2914

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 971 NM - 3 MR. MURPHY: Oh well,that is typical. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to ask the honourable Premier whether they are using Celsius or Fahrenheit - MR. ROBERTS: - retarded children's school and he can come in to. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NEARY: Perhaps I might ask the Premier later on about Celsius or Fahrenheit in Bermuda but right now I am going to ask the Premier about the oil refinery down at Come By Chance, the expansion. We are told that a minor detail is delaying the agreement. Would the Premier care to elaborate on that matter? What is the minor detail?

Will it start this year? The honourable the Premier I am directing my questj1m to. MR. DOODY: Do you want an answer or not? MR. NEARY: Okay if the Minister of Industrial - MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: It has been explained many times 1 Your Honour,and I think UIOSt of the people in the Province of Newfoundland are aware of the situation. However,for the benefit of the Member for Bell Island,who seems to have more difficulty than most in getting the gist of the message 1 I will run through it again.

The financing for the oil refinery expansion at Come By Chance has always been in the hands of the ECGD people in London, the Export Credit Guarantee Department of the British Department of Finance. These people have indicated that they are prepared and willing to finance the expansion providing the company can show them long-term contracts will ensure the sale of the product over the period of the financing period.

The company is having difficulty in getting these contracts arranged because under the existing refinery, the one that is now in beimi:,which was financed the same way, they found that the Government of Canada force majeured some of these contracts when there was an oil shortage in Eastern Canada and diverted some of the sales of the product into Canada,which was necessary,undoubtedly 1at thattime. 291S

April 3, 1975, Tape 971 However, their lonR-term customers were reluctant to enter into contracts unless they get guarantees from the Canadian Government that this situation will not happen aR&in. As I understand the 2916 NM - 4

April 3, 1975. Tape 972 RH - 1 companies representatives are in Ottawa, if not physically at the present time, certainly they have been there recently and will probably be back there again shortly in an attempt to get this situation clarified. As soon as that is straightened out the construction of the refinery will start. Until such time as it is straightened out, the construction of the refinery will not start,and that is the situation as it now stands, Sir. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Rural Development, Sir, ~ould inform the House of any negotiations, any discussions that are going on between the Government of Canada and the minister's department concerning a resettlement scheme that we do not have in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rural Development. HON. J. REID: Mr. Speaker, we have been negotiating with the Federal Government this last twelve months to try to have a better resettlement programme and it was only last week we were discussing it with the Federal Government and Mr. Jamieson's department. We are waiting on Mr.

Jamieson to see what kind of a settlement we are going to have. We have made several proposals to change the resettle­ ment programme and up until now we have not had any success. MR. BEARY: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister care to indicate to the House what is involved in these proposals? Could the minister elaborate on his statement and be a little more specific and give the House some more information on these negotiations, some of the finer details of what the minister proposes? MR. REID: Well, Mr.

Speaker, we are trying to help the people to move from various places because of job opportunity. At the present time, we can only send people or move people into various communities that have been selected through the Federal Government in certain places and at the present time we are trying to move people from various places where job opportunities are. We find now with the Resettlement Programme that we can only move into the certain 2917

April 3, 1975. Tape 972 RH - 2 communities that were selected by the Federal Government. MR. ROBERTS: Did the Province agree to these communities? Is that a matter of agreement between the Province and Ottawa what communities there are? MR. REID: This was the old settlement . This is the old agreement. We are trying to change that so as we can now move people from different communities into places where job opportunities are. At the present time, we can only move into the certain communities and move people which are selected by the Federal Govern­ ment. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary: Would the minister care, Sir, to table a list of these commimities to which he referred a few moments ago under both the old agreement and the new agreement, the proposed communities that the minister plans on moving these people into 1where the _ job opportunities exist? Would the minister care to table these lists? MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, we can certainly give a list of the old programme and where they were supposed to move, but we feel that we should be able to move people into any community where the job opportunity is.

This is what we are trying to do right now, regard­ less of what part of Newfoundland and Labrador that they want to move. If the job opportunity is there, we would like to move them, but we cannot do it at the present time under this agreement. MR. NEARY: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister then holding any discussions with Canada Manpower,who have a similar programme under the Manpower Mobility Regulations for moving people to where there are job opportunities or is this going to be an exclusive provincial scheme? MR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, I am not that familiar with the Federal Mobile Programme Opportunity, but the point is this is a different system altogether. Normally, when Manpower wants to move these people, they must have the job there and they will move them to any part of,probably Canada. But what we are doing, we are moving people, 2918

April 3, 1975. Tape 972 RH - 3 homes and everything else into various communities here through­ out Newfoundland and they are, as far as I am concerned, we are dissatisfied with that because of the fact that immediately they move and immediately they want them to move, but normally we get together with different groups and that or various people who want to move from one community to the other, We negotiate with them and discuss it with them and then we gradually move them out to the various communities. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary: Would the minister care to indicate whether these people whose homes will be moved will be moved on barges or tractor trailers? How will they be moved, these houses where people want to move? 2919

April 3, 1975. Tape 973 RH - 1 MR. REID: Well, Mr. Speaker, we normally use the equipment necessary to move a home. If it has got to go by barge, naturally enough we will do it by barge. If it got to go by float or some other system,or train 1or what have you 1 or boat, we will normally do it. We have barges now working with our department. We have our own barges and normally we move and we have most of our own equipment in rural development to move all the homes and that. We usually go in and set them up and even hook up their homes and that in the various communities. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister, Sir, this is a very important topic, could the minister tell us how many applications are on hand in the minister's department at this very moment from people who want to resettle? MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say that at the present moment, but certainly I can get that. MR. NEARY: I thank the minister for the information. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, could I have a few moments. is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. My question It is based on representations which I have received from a number of people in St.

Mary's District. Could the minister indicate,please, what steps he is going to take to try to improve the road surface conditions on the road which serves the communities of Mount Carmel, North Harbour and Colinet? I understand there is a school bus route in that area and that the road is uncommonly rough. It is not a matter of the spring breakup. Rather it is a matter of the fact there has been no grading services provided that road for the last month or so. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ROUSSEAU: We have had a number of representations in respect to this road.

As I have said a few days back in the House that I have instructed officials to take a look at the actual situation down there and make every attempt to do all they can so that the road will 2920

April 3, 1975. Tape 973 RH - 2 be put in better condition. I have not checked yet, but I will under­ take to find out just what the condition is now and what improvements have been made of recent date and to bring it back tomorrow. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: Right. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with Orders of the Day and this is on condition, of course, that the question raised by the honourable Member for Hermitage is debatable at 5:30 p.m., the order of questions to be debated, the first one will be by the honourable Leader of the Opposition and the Minister of Health.

Secondly,the honourable Member for Bell Island and the Premier. Thirdly, the honourable Member for Hermitage and the Minister of Transportation, if it is correct to do that. Fourthly, if indeed the question by the honourable Member for Hermitage is not in order, then we will debate the question by the honourable Member for Bell Islandlagain with the Premier. But the time limit will permit only three,and possibly the fourth one by the honourable Member for Bell Island may not be permitted. MR. ROBERTS: happen? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: It is held over until next week. Is that what will I am not sure about that.

I have to check that. ORDERS OF THE DAY: Your Honour, just before Your Honour leaves the Chair, it is not on an important matter. I do not think it requires any formal note, but I think we should note that today is the ninety-sixth birthday of the Yellow Dog of Journalism in Newfoundland, The Evening Telegram. On motion, the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order, please! 1401-01. I believe the Minister of Fisheries was speaking when we adjourned last. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, first of course, I want to add my congratulations to the ninety-sixth anniversary. I had not realized 2921

April 3, 1975. Tape 973 RH - 3 it was th.e ninety-sixth anniversary of The Evening TeJ.egram. It is a paper that is always interesting to read and we hope that it will nave at leas.t another ninety-six years. That newspaper's intel:'est in the fisheey, of course, ii! an intense one and I hope that this debate will add some further facts and information for them to go on in The TelegtaJI! during the present year. Ninety-six years is quite a record for any newspaper and, in fact, I would say it must be one of the lcmgest lived newspapers in North America.

It i.s also a paper that did not have to depend on advertis:f,ng from any particular source to be a success, r wou1d like to congratulate them on that also. There is one thing about The Evening Telegram. They have never needed government advertising to survive, They were always able to attract ~ough advertising on their own. Now, Mr, Chai.rman, I just want to refer to 2922

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 974 NM - 1 some points that were made by honourable gentlemen opposite on the last time we met, this is Thursday, on Tuesday and the honouable member for - but first I would like to clear up a point that was raised by the honourable Leader of the Opposition, I see he has left his seat but I think he should come back to learn this because it is information that I had not realized and we both made a mistake on Tuesday. I never mind admitting when I make a mistake. That is one of my great characteristics, that if I am wrong I never mind admit,tinR saving so. MR.

NEARY: You do not mind admitting when you get caught. MR. CROSBIE: Well,naturally if I do not get caught, but on this occasion I am catching myself, Mr. Chairman, because the Leader of the Opposition suggested on Tuesday that the age of our fishing population, of the people who are still listed as fishermen, he said he did not have the figures but he was concerned that the number of fishermen, that they are all older men and that there are not younger men coming into the fishery. MR NEARY: That is true. MR.

CROSBIE: I had the same impression and I agreed with him but I have found since that this is wrong and that we do have the statistics and I have some copies of this information I will table. But the number of fishermen, Mr. Chairman, and this information comes from Environment Canada, Economics and Intellegence Branch of the Fisheries Marine Service and this is the figures for 1972, which I guess were the latest that they have got.

But the number of fishermen in Newfoundland, according to their figures, in 1972, this does not include fish plant workers now or anyone like that, was 14,442 and their average age was thirty-eight. I will just read the figures now. Those who were fourteen to nineteen years of age were 1,690 or 11.7 per cent of the total. Those twenty to twenty-four years of age were 1,912 or 13.2 per cent of the total,and those twenty-five to twenty-nine years of age number 1,569 fishermen or 10.9 per cent of the total. So let us see now that is ten, twenty-three, 2923

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 974 NM - 2 twenty-four, thirty-four, just over thirty-five per cent of our fishermen were under twenty-nine years of age, Mr. Chairman. Now that is very interesting because it is quite different from the impression that I had and that the Leader of the Opposition had. So just to repeat again now, thirty - ten, twenty-three, twenty-four, thirty-four, yes, over thirty-five per cent of our fishermen in 1972 were under the age of twenty-nine years, and thirty to thirty-four years there were 1,285 or 8.9 per cent.

Thirty­ five to thirty-nine years, there were 1,320 or 9.1 per cent and forty to forty-four years of age there were 1,360 or 9.4 per cent of the total. So, Mr. Chairman• in 1972 we had listed 14,452 fishermen and 53.8 per cent of those fishermen were under forty-four years of age, while 35 per cent of them were under twenty-nine years of age. So I had not realized this and the officials of my department knew I was wrong when I said this the other night and they never hesitate to draw their minister's attention to the fact that he is wrong.

And I am delighted when I find out that I am wrong because it is better to find out you are wrong than to go on being wrong. But these figures are indeed interesting and I have some copies here to table, if anybody - the Leader of the Opposition could have one, and interested members)so that some- and a couple should be sent to the Press Gallery so that they would have the information too. MR. NEARY: Get good mileage out of it. MR. CROSBIE: Well,it is not a question of getting mileage out of it.

I think it is a very significant fact because the other night we were talking on the basis that we all felt that the age of our fishermen, you know,that there were not young men or younger men goin g in the industry and now we discover, from information that was readily available, that 25 per cent in 1972 were under twenty-nine years of age, and all of the figures are given in these tables. So that means then that the fishery is not going to die out if these figures mean aaything. At least it is not going to die out from there being a lack of people willing to go into the fishery. Because 2924

April 3, 1975 Tape no. 975 Page 1 - mw twenty-four per cent of the fishermen in 1972 were under twenty-four years of age. So that, I think, is worth noting in correcting the record. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: Yes, point~seven per cent were over seventy-five and two-point-one per cent were over seventy. So I think it is interesting to note that and it is important to note it. Now the honourable gentleman from St. Barbe North mentioned regional offices and complained that there has not much being done in regional offices when he spoke the other night.

When we get down into the details of the estimates, I will show that considerable progress is being made in establishing regional offices in the Province and here in the Department of Fisheries. As a matter of fact there are advertisements now in the press. And the Public Service Commission has been asked to find, I believe it is, three more - we are now advertising for three more regional officers to be stationed at various parts of the Province in addition to the, I think it was, six that we already have.

When we get down to the estimates where I know where excactly the information is, I will go into that in more detail. The Department of Fisheries of Newfoundland, Mr.Chairman, has actually doubled in size in the last three years. It was pitifully small in numbers when the P. C. Party took over the administration of the Province. In January, 1972 the Department of Fisheries had forty-six employees, including the Fisheries Loan Board. Last November it had ninety-one employees. The total at the moment would be, I would say, ninety-five.

That is double, in any event, including the Fisheries Loan Board and the Fishing Industry Advisory Board. So in November of 1974 there were ninety-one employees and twelve positions authorized but not filled. So that was authority for 103 employees,over double the number of employees in 1972. 292S

April 3, 1975 Tape no, 975 Page 2 - mw ,. AN HON. MEMBER: So what! MR. CROSBIE: So what, the honourable gentleman says.

On Tuesday honourable gentlemen opposite sneered and said that the emphasis that this government had on the fishery was shown by the fact that the department had not increased in size, and it was doing nothing and so on and so forth, and the same slop and the same lack of concern for the fisheries as they demonstrated was still being demonstrated, So I am simply pointing out to the committee, and I am not saying that this proves very much, but it does show that the Department of Fisheries now has twice as many employees as it had in 1972, and I can say this, Mr.

Chairman, it is doing ten times the job that was done in 1972. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. CROSBIE : And I am saying that under my predecessor, the member for Gander, who was sneered at and denigrated in this House on Tuesday in a most unbecoming manner, that under that minister the department was re-organized, It was strengthened and that the new structure was created and that there was recruited to the department two very fine assistant deputy ministers, who are still there, young and intelligent Newfoundlanders,and Mr. Dopplinger who was in charge of the planning

section and who is now looking after the Select Committee on the Inshore Fishery and who is a splended man)and a whole host of other people, All that work was done while my predecessor from Gander was the minister of that department, We now have, I think, a department that can play a major

part in the development of a fishery policy in this Province and a department that is listened to with some respect and some attention by the Department of the Environment at Ottawa. That is not, Mr. Chairman, as it used to be just three years ago. That is why I mentioned that. 292b

April 3, 1975 Tape no. 975 Page 3 - Now,involving fishermen and policy. That is not something new, Mr. Chairman. That is being done, and it has only been done, as far as I know, since 1972 that fisbe _rmen were ever consulted in what they thought should be done or not done in the field of fisheries. It has been done on an increasing scale by the federal government, and it is being done on an increasing scale by the provincial department. For example, we have a collllllittee - there is a vote for it later on, but I have a note here if I can find it on it - we have a committee now in which fishermen participate.

It is further down in the notes here - until I get the exact name of it. But we have a committe ·e that advises the Department of Fisheries, provincial, and that meets at least four times a year1 to which fishex:men are brought from all around the Province. There is a vote in the esti111ates for it so that we can get their views on va-cious things that are peing done in the Province. We are

April 3, 1975 Tape 976 (Afternoon) PK - 1 co-ordinating more and more. It is .1~t avart from that formal committee, Mr. Chairman, apart from that, yesterday, for example, I went to travel to Forteau, I am sorry to L'Anse-au-Clair,for a meeting in L'Anse-au-Clair with fishermen from Red Bay to L'Anse-au-Clair or to the French border with the Province of Quebec. We met with thirty fishermen there - who the Regional Development Association of Labrador South, the Member for Labrador South was with us - and listened·to their views and we received a brief from them.

On two or three weeks previously we travelled to Plwn Point to meet fishermen from the Northern Peninsula, St. Barbe North in particular, to listen to their problems and we had received a brief from them and to tell them what we were doing this year, and to get their views on it. The present Salf Fish Corporation was with us yesterday, who, I _think, are doing a most admirable job. I have a very high opinion of Aiden ~aloney. I am sure all members of the House do. He has an excellent rapport with fishermen, and knows their problems, and has a long experience in the fishery. So we are - AN HON.

MEt·IBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: So we are communicating constantly with fishermen and receiving their views, and if we agree with them and trying what we can to assist them, if we do not agree explaining why,and there is a constant process of communication. Now, in addition, Mr. Speaker, - Mr. Chairman, I am sorry - during this present year I hope to visit every

section of the Province, the fishermen in every part of the Province and listen to their views, and to tell them what we are doing, and to get their suggestions as to what we should do. And apart from that, Mr. Chairman, we have a Select Committee on Fisheries which is not going to work any miracles,as we all know~but which we hope may have some very valuable suggestions, and which is an excellent device for allowing people around the Province at this particular stage to put forward their views as to what may be done.

Nine members of this House are now travelling about the Province communicating with fishermen, admittedly on a hurried basis, but giving them a chance to express their views - nine members of the House,which is approximately 2928

April 3, 1975 Tape 976 (Afternoon) PK - 2 one-fifth, just over one-fifth of the membership of this House, all of which I think is to the good. So when honouralle gentlemen suggested that we were not involving fishermen sufficiently in policy, I just cite these facts as an answer to that. He is not correct. And the federal government, I must say, Mr. Chairman, are taking very particular · pains to do the same kind of thing. By the way, Mr.

Chairman, I will just give you some of the committees on which officials of our department serve or fishermen serve, We have a membership on the Federal-Provincial Atlantic Fisheries Committee, on the F.P.A.F.C. which is that collll!littee's Industrial Development section; on the Atlantic Herring Management Committee; on the Newfoundland Herring Working Group, on ICNAF - ICNAF I understand was discussed here yesterday, Mr. Chairman, and the resolution passed yesterday as to our views on the situation on the Hamilton Banks, and the Canadian position to be put forth at ICNAF will be done in June.

And until that position is made public I am not at liberty to say anything about it, but I can say this 1that the position the Canadian delegation will put forward this year after consultation with the Provincial Department of Fisheries,as well as other groups in Newfoundland,is going to be an extremely and a worthwhile one. We are represented on the Federal-Provincial Committee on shell fish, the Atlantic Queen Crab Association Committee, the Fisheries Development Liaison Committee, that is a federal committee I believe. Federal? AN HON. MEMBER: Provincial. MR. CROSBIE: Provincial.

That is the Provincial Co1111Dittee whose name I was looking for, on which we have representation of the fishermen from about the Island, the Fisheries Development Liaison Committee. The Management Co1111Dittees for on-going DREE programmes and the Federal­ Provincial Resettlement Committee, and I could give a host of other collllllittees that our officials are serving on with great distinction. MR. NEARY: No wonder you.have some new staff. They are all serving on committees. MR.

CROSBIE: The honourable gentlemen cannot have it both ways, Thev cannot say that the department's staff has not increased in nwnbers and they are doing nothing, and then when I show that the department's 2929

April 3, 1975 Tape 976 (Afternoon) PK - 3 staff is gone up over one hundred per cent since 1972 say it means nothing. You just cannot have it both ways. I mean you are on sticky wicket. I would suggest the best thing is for you not to go saying any more about that point. It has been demolished. We know it is not of any great signifiance in any event. a point that the Member for St. Barbe North had made. Now that was He also - I did not catch all of his remarks but he said that I painted a picture of doom and gloom. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear: . Hear! MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, I do not,you know, I do not paint pictures of doom and gloom or pictures of bright vision and everything is rosy in the garden. All I attempt to do is outline what I consider to be the facts of the situation. Now anyone who examines the facts of the situation with respect to the fishery on the East Coast of Canada has to be painting a picture which is gloomy. I mean,if we do not recognize that,we are living in a fool's paradise.

That was not recognized from 1949 to 1972, and I know we are not suppose to go back in the history, and I do not want to be accused of saying anything about the first twenty-three years of Confederation. Well it is a fact that over that twenty-three years nobody said anything about doom and gloom in the fishery because they did not want to discuss the facts. And they ignored the facts on what was happening to the resource and so on and so forth. I am not saying that we would have done or been much different had we been there during that period, but we were not.

But if we are not prepared to discuss the facts of the Newfoundland Fishery situation now,sensibly and without honourable members on the opposite side getting up and trying to put the government into a corner or trying to make it appear that the Minister of Fisheries is doom and gloom, and be is old nail-him-and-jail-him, and he is old screw•him, and all this kind of business. It we cannot discuss matters in a rational way here about the problems in the fisheries today, it is a pretty pitiable show. I have always taken the approach, Mr.

Chairman, that what we should do is try to deal with the facts, and the situation that faces 2930

April 3, 1975 Tape 976 (Afternoon) PK - 4 us, and if that is a picture that is not too bright, I would sooner paint it correctly than try to pretend it is all bright, that everything is bright, you know. Now this is not to say although the picture is gloomy we are not attempting to do something about it, we are. That is what the whole thing is about. That is what the federal government are about.

There are some bright aspects because it is now proven beyond doubt 1 and the Government of Canada have got it fixed most firmly in their minds 1 that they must take major steps if we are to have any East Coast fishery at all. Now that is only lately come to them, I mean to the Government of Canada generally.

Only in the last twelve months~ and really only in the last eight have they accepted the fact in Ottawa that they are responsible for a major possible disaster that is occurring on the East Coast of Canada in the fishery) that they are responsible constitutionally, and, you know, that they have a responsibility to try and overcome this. And as I have made clear in my earlier remarks, I am not saying that they should do everything, and that we should not play our part. We are going to play our part. We,this little Province with all its obligations, and all it is attempting to do, you know, we are going to do more.

We are going to do whatever is necessary but first we want to see what Ottawa,whohasthe main responsibility, is going to do and then we will do whatever else is necessary. And I tried to outline some of the things that might be necessary. So I am not trying to give a picture that should discourage anyone. We are not discouraged. We are not throwing up our hands and saying it is all finished. We do not believe that. If you travel - it is tremendous, Mr.

Chairman, to get out of this House and see the real world, see thirty fishermen from Labrador South yesterday,healthy, good looking men, not grey beards, I would say most of them in their early 3O's or perhaps in their 4O's, fine looking, healthy bunch of men, living a fine healthy life, needing improvements, which we are planning to do this year, you know, now living in the Twentieth Century, who got T.V. 2931

April 3, 1975 Tape 976 (Afternoon) PK - 5 everybody with a ski-doo. You know, the standard of their living and their life has advanced so much in the last ten years that it is miraculous to behold. But these are men, they are not saying that they are not going to fish. They are all still interested in the fishing industry. What they want is a decent support from the government in the way of supporting facilities and they are dying to get back fishing.

And some of them are going out in three or four days time, the ice is not as bad this year, to take seals or to get seals if they can get them, and then as soon as the ice is gone they are on the fishery generally. And it does your heart good to see a place like L'Anse-au-Clair, and representatives of the fishermen such as there were there yesterday, and they were in Plum Point three weeks ago. They are not slinyers, and they are not wingers, you know, and who are not looking for the impossible. And to see, you know, their position. They are not saying that they are never going to fish again or that all is up.

But they have got complaints about the unemployment insurance, which we agree with them on. And there are things and facilities needed there, They need a longliner slipway in that area badlylwhich we hope to get them this year. They need the connnunity stages upgraded so that they will meet the new regulations, so that they can properly utilize them for the purposes of the herting fishery and in the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation. They need further 2932

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 977 NM - 1 work done on the Harbour in L'Anse-a-Loup, the breakwater extended and a better wharf, so they can use their longliners there. These are the kinds of things they are interested in. They are by no means discouraged. They are not in despair. But they do have certain legitimate beefs. Now that brings me to another point, Mr. Chairman, and this was the Member for Bell Island.

Now his remarks did not get any attention in the press and I could just forget them, say this was another ploy by the Member for Bell Island, he tried to get some publicity and he did not get it and his latest expose got nowhere - because it got nowhere, the press was tired of the honourable gentleman crying fire when there is not even a match lit. So they ignored his foolishness on Tuesday about, he got up and made a charge. He thought it was a tremendous charge. It was going to electrify the House. It was going to stun the Province.

It was going to put us all completely out of our minds when the House heard, and the public heard, this dastardly fact that he sprang on us last Tuesday. What was the fact? He said that he understood that the Government of Newfoundland had never colllllunicated in any formal sense with the Government of Canada to urge them to do anything about an Income Support Programme for fishermen. This was a statement. And he said if the Minister of Fisheries got up and said this was not correct he was not going to believe him.

He was not going to believe him and the honourable Minister of Fisheries was probably a - and he decried the fact that if I said something people might believe it. He wailed and he knashed his teeth and he tore his hair that if I, the poor old Minister of Fisheries said something that he felt most people would believe it. He said this was unfair.

It is terrible for anybody to believe, he is so used to not being believed, he is so used to everybody knowing that he is completely discredited and nobody pays the least bit of attention to his fulminations that he throws up his hands in despair when there might be someone who is believed and I was delighted to hear him say that I was a person of that nature, who when he says something most of the public might believe he was not telling "'03·.-1 (.J J

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 977 NM - 2 a lie. Now I am delighted he said that. AN HON. MEMBER: Be might withdraw it. MR. CROSBIE: No, he will never withdraw. The honourable gentleman will never withdraw. Re has not got the grace to withdraw and I would not ask him to withdraw. Because occasionally~of course,he is amusing. We have got to give him credit for that. The gentleman is occasionally quite amusing. He was amusing the other night when he praised the Leader of the Opposition. That was the most amusing moment we have seen in the House lately.

Battered and bruised and given the ultimatum, the honourable gentleman from Bell Island had to get up and praise the Leader of the Opposition because he is on his way out of the caucus if he did not do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: Am I irrelevant? Well all right. Now what about Income Support Prograumes? Now is it true that this Province has not made any submissions to the Government of Canada about the need for an improved, either an improved unemployment insurance scheme or what is preferable a new Income Support Programme for fishermen, is that true?

Is that charge which should - if that charge was proved correct, surely - MR. DOODY: It was true when the Liberals were in. MR. CROSBIE: It was true then,yes. Now the Liberals are in Ottawa and they made certain promises in 1974 in a certain election and we are reminding them of that,and not in a nasty spirit 1from day to day. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I find Romeo to be a first class gentleman, and he is working hard in this programme. MR. NEARY: I do not think it is anything to Mr. Davis. I want Mr. Leblanc and Mr. Andras, these are the two gentlemen that I am talking about. MR.

CROSBIE: I do not deal with Mr. Andras but I do deal with the honourable Romeo Leblanc and the honourable Don Jamieson. Now, 2934

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 977 NM - 3 Mr. Chairman, let us just see, has the Province said anything, now I have said at every meeting that I have had with the honourable Romeo Leblanc since October 6, 1974 when I was demoted, when I was crushed, when I was pushed down, when I was put in the ignominy, if that is the word, of the Department of Fisheries, as the Leader of the Opposition said because he insulted every Newfoundland last October, he said Crosbie has had the chop.

He was the great Finance Minister, much beloved of by the public when suddenly he was taken and stuffed to this minor department, this wrack and ruin, this tiddly wink department, Fisheries and he said this was a great comedown and a great demotion, Thatwas his view, the honourable Leader of the Opposition's view of the fishery when he should have been saying anyone appointed to the fishery was almost next to the Premier, as the honourable the former Member for Bonavista South used to say, the Premier. MR. NEARY: What about our government? MR. CROSBIE: So now what - MR. DOODY: Years and years and years ago. MR.

CROSBIE: The honourable former member for what cistrict,was it, at one time it was Bonavista North and then it was Humber East and then he ran from Humber East to Placentia East and he ran from Placentia East to Clearwater and now he is coming back perhaps to try for another district, he used to kid me about 'our' government. Just because I am a poor illiterate that cannot pronounce my words right, it is supposed to be that I should not be a member of this House. Now to get back at the point I was going to make, income support. Now we realize, Mr.

Chairman, as I have said 1and I have talked about this with the honourable Mr. Leblanc everytime I have seen him and he is a man who is generally interested in the fisheries and I think that he, as far as I am concerned, so far he is taking the right approach to the fisheries problems and he is very much interested in them. At every meeting we have had we have brought up the question of income support and as a matter of fact this last week~I think it was, my Acting Deputy Minister, Mr. David Vardy, had a meeting with one of the federal officials who is doing the 293~

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 977 NM - 4 work on a propo3ed Income Support Programme and discussed just where they were with them and the alternatives and so on. And they are having a lot of difficulties with this because it is a very complicated area. But at every meeting we have reminded them that this is badly needed, particularly in Newfoundland. Now last year, Mr. Chairman, the honourable Jack Davis of that time, had sent out to interested parties suggestions he had made for major changes in the Unemployment Insurance scheme.

Among those to whom he sent his suggestions were the Government of Newfoundland, And the Government of Newfoundland, through its Minister of Fisheries, then the Member for Gander and the Resource Policy Committee,I think, of the Executive Council, studied the proposals and on July 26, 1974 Mr. Davis was written outlining our views on what he was suggesting and I have a copy of the letter here but it would not be proper to table it because we have not got consent from the Government of Canada to table the correspondence. But I can mention, any gentleman who wants to see it private can come over and look at it.

It was a long letter. It ,.was a four or five page letter as to what our views were on the modifications they were suggesting. The points that we made in this letter were the points made by the fishermen up in Labrador South yesterday. I will not go into them all. But one of the things that is needed is that the present employment and benefit periods have to be changed, that there should not be an artificial period, which I think is now from December 1 to May 15, and during that period, only during that period can a fisherman get benefits.

That period should be extended and should change with the part of the coast and the fishery on that coast that you are dealing with. That is one of the things. MR. NEARY: That is not an Income Support Programme, That is changing the Unemployment Insurance Programme. MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman will have his chance later because I am hoping that these estimates will be debated day after day after day and day after day after day, until we have gone our seventy-five hours. So 293ti

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 977 NM - 5 the honourable gentleman will have his chance. MR. NEARY: There will be no formal presentation for an Income Support Programme. MR. CROSBIE: When I finish the honourable gentle~an should slink from the House and go back to Bell Island and lick his wounds. MR. DOODY: They will not have him on Bell Island. MR. CROSBIE: No, they will not have him. He is running from Bell Island now. And a large number of other suggestions for major changes in the Unemployment Insurance Plan are contained in that letter. MR. NEARY: What about the Income Support Programme? MR.

CROSBIE: The rule that limits the'maximum weekly insurable earnings of fishermen to $170 should be eliminated. The wives /' fishermen, now here is one that would interest the Member for St. Barbe North, the wives of fishermen who process their husband's catch or aid in procuring the catch, should have earnings attributed to them in proportion to the value their processing adds to the catch or to the extent to which they would aid in procuring the catch and allow them to have equal treatment and be eligible for unemployment insurance proceeds. That is one of the points we made in this letter of last July.

We impressed upon them the importance of carrying out these changes before the end of the 1975 - How are you Premier? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Okay. MR, REARY: You are spending a fortune boy, go back. MR, CROSBIE: The end of the 1974 season. Then ~he Premier met with the Prime Minister and other premiers last summer, I guess that was after the election 1at which they discussed the economy generally and at that tie the Premier stressed to the Prime Minister the importance of an Income Support Plan for Newfoundland fishermen and the Prime Minister said that he was quite cognizantof this .

AndI will show you this in a moment now, and on December 13, to follow this up, the Premier wrote the Prime Minister, on December 13, 1974. As I said I cannot table it because it would be discourteous but I will let the Member for Bell Island read it 293'1

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 977 NM - 6 himself now. 'MR, NEARY: The other .one too. MR. CROSBIE: And the other one. December 13, 1974, you py remember ihb is just the introdu¢tion; My Dear Prime Minister, You m.LY remenlber that soae time ago -.e di:scussecl the In~ Stipport Programme for fishermen which. was proposed by the Honourable Jack Davis m;i.d we have written on July 26 7expressed our support and recommended c:hang_es. And i .t goes on to tell the 2938

April 3, 1975 Tape no. 978 Page 1 - mw Prime Minister how important this is, and we are ready to participate in further discussions at any time. And on February 28 the Prime Minister answered in acknowledging receipt of that letter~on February 28, and I cannot table that because it would be improper,but saying that they are proceeding with studies on this question, and it is their intention to continue to provide unemployment benefits to self-employed fishermen. Well we know they are not going to stop doing that now. So it is completely untrue to say, Mr.

Chairman, you know, that we are not pushing with all the force that we can the development of either a vastly improved unemployment insurance programme for fishermen or a suitable income support programme for fishermen. Now I am not qualified>nor is this the appropriate time,to go into all the problems they are finding with trying to develop an income support programme. They are working on it hard in Ottawa. I understand that they are committed to improving the unemployment insurance programme for fishermen this year if they are unable to bring in a new income support progra11111e.

If they cannot do that because of the complexity and the difficulty, that they will introduce changes this year that will better look after the fishermen. And that is important, Mr. Chairman, because it is no good to say that the fishermen might have been - and this was asked yesterday actually, this was interesting at the meeting in Labrador South yesterday when they were making their points about the unemployment insurance programme.

One person there said, well, you know, three or four years ago you were not discontented with the unemployment insurance programme for fishermen and why is it such a subject now of extreme distress with inshore fishermen and so on? And the answer was, and I thought it was very interesting, well now, he said, Sir, you know, four or five or six years ago we did not have television, we did not have oil, we did not have to pay our oil bill every couple of weeks or every week or monthly, they 2939

April 3, 1975 Tape no. 978 Page 2 did not have light bills to pay, they did not have the telephone bills to pay for and so on and so forth and now with all these changed conditions the fisherman who lives in Labrador South, the same as ther fisherman who lives almost anywhere in the Province of Newfoundland, has to meet his weekly bills and he needs cash for that because conditions have changed • .

And, therefore, when they are left~say in April 1without any unemployment insurance benefits and the fishery may not start until the end of May or June, they really feel the pinch of this because of these changed circumstances. Not only that but they see s0111ebody who works in the fish plant for eight weeks is then eligible to get forty-one weeks, I think it is> or forty-three weeks of unemployment insurance

whereas the fisherman who fishes for much longer than that is only eligible for - I forget the exact number - twenty-some-odd weeks of benefits, anyway only between December 1 and May 15. Now are you convinced? So I only mention these things in passing to lay the honourable member for - MR. NEARY: Little white lies, little white lies. MR. CROSBIE: - to lay the mind of the Hon.Member for Bell Island at rest on that point.

We are as extremely anxious as any one in Newfoundland would be to see developed a new income support scheme for fishermen or major improvements that will look after the requirements, particularly of inshore fishermen. Now I do not know if I need - oh, shell shuckers. The honourable gentleman brought up the question of shell shuckers in St. Barbe North and this is a very thorny question. And he has done his best to have it resolved with Ottawa. And the President of the Union, Mr. Cashin and his union have done their best, and they have made representations.

And we have done our best and we have made representations. And the whole nub of the problem,it is a matter of technicalities relatinr to the National Revenue and Taxation Act. 2940

April 3, 1975 Tape no, 978 Page 3 National Revenue says that a normal employer-employee working arrangement does not exist between the independent scallop fisherman and the woman scallop shuckers, their wives, There is no point going into all the details, But the way that this was attempted to be gotten around last year still did not get around these legal technicalities.

Their argument is that women were still shucking scallops on their husbands' fishing stages and were not subject to normal company work rules and procedures and, therefore, they would not recognize them as being engaged in an occupation that was insurable, Well there are ways, as the honourable gentleman doubtless knows, that if they go about it right this year, in a different form of organization and to meet these technicalities, they should be gotten into a position where this year they may be able to scallop shuck but still be eligible for unemployment insurance, MR, F. ROWE: They were told that last year. MR.

CROSBIE: Yes, well they were told that last year, and they attempted a method with Fishery Products that did not go far enough, MR. F. ROWE: So in other words, the Department of National Revenue agreed with the so-called agreement, and then three months later disagreed with it. That is the tragedy of it. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, exactly. And it is the Department of National Revenue which has been nit-picking about this situation, and we have done our best also to add our voice to that of the Member for St. Barbe North and Mr.

Cashin and other people who are concerned to try to get them to change that,but without any success. So if they will not change it, then, you know, we will have to be sure that the parties concerned devised the proper method this year so that their wives will ge~ the unemployment insurance for shucking scallops. I mean obviously it is much better to have the husbands out fishing and catching the fish and the women, under some arrangement doing the work onshore, shucking the scallops, but in a way that will get them covered with the ordinary benefits of unemployment insurance and other such benefits. To do 2941

April 3, 1975 Tape no. 978 Page 4 that, they have to be able to show that they are not just working for their husbands. They have to show that they are working for some third party and it has got to be arranged to meet the technicalities that came up last year. Now1community stages. I suppose there is no point in speaking at any great length on it except to say that in February 5, 1975 I wrote Mr.

Leblanc about the whole question of the ownership and sharing of the cost of major additions and alterations to community stages and holding units constructed under Federal-Provincial Progranmes in Newfoundland, which have been in dispute since their construction. There have been several programmes,cammencing in 1959 and 1960, where coumunity stages were constructed by both governments with the Province providing the sites and the federal government providing the funds. In the year 1965 to 1967, there was a great deal of discussion and an agreement was almost entered into.

The provincial government recognizes its responsibility for the fish holding facilities that were constructed by the Department of Fisheries of Newfoundland without any federal financial assistance and also for the community stages built in 1963-1964 under a Federal-Provincial Prograllllle for which there was a written agreement. We are not trying to shirk our responsibilities. We say we recognize them. We paid one hundred per cent for these stages and we will continue to do so.

All we want done is that they transfer to us the administrative responsibility for salt fish co111111unity stages and fresh fish holding units so long as they pay seventy-five per cent of the cost of bringing their stages up to proper repair and if there are any major repairs afterwards, they share the cost. But in the meantime, we will carry on with all ordinary expenses ourselves,a hundred per cent, and minor repairs and the like. but never carried out. 2942 That was what was agreed in 1969

April 3, 1975 Tape no. 978 Page 5 Now in the last few years the federal government has spent next to nothing on c0111111unity stages except through LIP Programmes. Since 1969 ·the Department of FisheTies of Newfoundland has spent approximately $5 million on the Comun:ity Stage Programme and that is ·what we h~e spent in this Province on a programme that was origina1ly almost entirely federal. We .have spent over $5 million. And the federal government since 1969 has spent. I do not believe they have spent anything except through LIP grants on c0111111unity stages.

So anything done in respect to community stage11 in the last two or three years has been done by this adnrl.nutration and s0111e of that money is being spent on stages originally built by the federal government and some has been spent on stages that started with LIP grants, to retrieve the LIP grants. I mean,that is one of the great pities, Mr. Chairman; of the LIP Programme. You know, it is a good progr ·amme in many senses, 2943 ..

April 3, 1'175 Tape q7q (afternoon) rn-1 AN IIONOURARLE MEMRER: Inaudible. MR . CROSllir.: Oh, no. They were reported. It just shows you, you know, if the money that was heing spent on LIP projects and all the LEAP projects and so on could he properly administered, how great the benefits could he to this Province. Now, in a great many cases when a group pets a LIP grant to start a community stage or improve one, the thing becomes a disaster. They do not get sufficient money in the first pl,ace 1and they have not got the necessary experience or administrative experience to know how to 11dminister 1 t.

They may not have proper plans and so on and we have to cnme in, and unless it is all going to he completely useless, we have to try to hail tl,em out and give further money, which we have done on snme occasionis,or if we are just strapped fr,r funds and cannot do it, do not r.ive any.

Tf the federal government would just 1 in addition to doing these pro~rammes, would say that in a Province like Newfoundland where the unemployment is so tragically high and the per capita income is the lowest in Canada and all the other facts that we know, that in addition we are going to give promises like that, $10 million, $15 million, $20 mil.lion to sprnd on puhlic improvements - we want the right to agree to what public improvements to use that for, and let us get at it - we would create far ~ore employment with that expenditure of money than would be created wHh twice that number of dollars in LIP projects and the rest.

You know, it would be spent properly and to the best advantage of our whole Province rather than,as now happens, left to the initiative of local areas and local groups and so on, some of which are good and some are bad and so on. If they want to help us overcome our unemployment prohlem of the moment, that is the kind of thing to do. Do the LIP grants and so on also, hut, you know, give the Province some $15 million or $20 million, whatever the figure is, to do necessary works particularly in the fisheries 1md all about this island. I think that the money will 2944

April 3, 1975 Tape 979 (afternoon) Tll-2 be far better spent than it is in many cases nm,, in I.IP grants. Well, one of our problems is with stages and facilities stc1rterl through LIP grants. to see that they are completed, Che money is not all lost and so on. Rut, in any event, since 1969 over $5 million, the Province has spent on the r.ommunity Stage Programme and upgrading and new facilities. Let us see. I forget the number of these facilities - I do not know if I can find it here - in the Province altogether. llut, about a third of them, if not more, are federal and provincial and some are in no man's land.

We have su~gested a solution for it with which we hope that they will agree. We know that they will agree to turn them all over to us now. llut, we do not want them turned over without the federal government having put some of their federal community stages in proper repair hefore they do>because we are straining ourselves fiscally now to do a lot of the work that we are doing in this Prov-1nce. It would be unfair for them to turn them over to us unless they were in proper shape for us to administer. Now, all the information is here. T have a whole list of them here now.

The first progn•mme, 1959 to 1960 - they are all Hstecl. There was a second programme, l<J63 to l<J64. There was a programme of 1965. There was a programme of 19/ili. There was a pro?,ramme of 1CJ61i a!!ain, and there was our own programme. 1~is all needs to be rej?;Ularized.

So, if we are doing everything we can, it "is the federal govE'rnment that really - well, they want to how out of this thing and they want to spend their money on wharves and so on and other improvements. lf they are going to bow out of it, let them give us their stages renovated as they should be in accordance with the new regulations and we v.•il 1 operate them from there on along with the other ones that we are operatinr, nm,r. AN HONOURABLE l"Et1RER: But did you not agree to take them over? t-'R. CROSBIF.: No, they were never agreed to be taken over.

They are argu:lng that there was some agreement, but we can find no agreement that the Province ever agreed to take them over. There was an agreement signed by ~r. Maloney when he was minister ~nd sent t0 Ottaw~ 294!>

AprH 3, 1975 Tape 979 (afternoon) hut never si~ed hy Ottawa, never signed by Mr. Robich;,ud who was the m:lnister in those days. That is the agreement that we are still willinp, to stp,n. The Liberal policy of 19~9, this particular one, turns out on examination to he a good policy. That is the one that we want to carry out w:!th Ottawa. We are on four square - ,\N I ONOURAIH.F. ~IRF:R : Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN ( PUNPfl'i): Order, please! MP. CROSBIE: - with the Liberal policy of 1969 on community stages. So, that is the positi.on on community stages. AN HONOURARLF. MEMREJl: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: No, we are prepared to maintain them ourselves as long as they will spend not e"Ven 100 1>er cent. We have sa:ld seventy­ five per cent of the cost of upgrading them to proper condition. We will pay the other twenty-five. Now, I think I have touched on just about all the points that were raised hy honourable gentlemen. As I say, I have a mass of information here, as we go down through the estimates, on other i terns, and they will be easier to deal with under indiviclual i terns as we go down through the estimates. I think that is all I need to say at the moment. MR .

CHAIRMAN (Dlll" PllY) : The honourable the Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F'. ROWF:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to reply to the minister's comments on the debate on, I guess, Tuesday night, it was. Sir, the mini s ter has really not answered one of the questions that was put to him. That was - and ptesumably he is going to bring up, give the answers to that question when he comes to this particular vote IB-3 in the estimates, that is the regional offices of the department. He did not mention that. He said he was going to indicate that information on the vo te ~ihen hE' p,e ts to it.

One of the things that we mentioned on this side of the House is that the rovernment has failed to encourage participation by fishermen through discussion groups, by providing them with the 1nformation developed in the dPpart ment and throu~h the establishment of regional advisory councils 294ti

April 3, l'l75 Tape 979 (afternoon) which will work with the department on the formation of future plans and policies affecting each part1 cular region. Now, the weak and feeble answer that the minister gave to that charge that they have Ill-4 not done this 1s that the minister and his off1cials are now gallivRntin~ about the Province meeting with the fishermen personally, year three after this promise was made. Three years later the minister is now taking his officials and going to various parts of the Province to meet with the fishermen personally.

Now, Sir, I see nothing wrong w:lth that except for two or three things. There is nothing wrong with the concept. Tt 1s the way it is heing done and the timing of it that I disagree with. Number one, I accompanied the minister to Plum Point 1and his officials 1 to meet with the fishermen from St. Paul's Inlet,r was informed _, to Cook's Harbour, St. Paul's Inlet to Cook's Harbour, close to JOO miles, 250 miles of coast line, in excess of fifty communities.

I turned on the radio one morning, Sir, and I heard the Minister of Fisheries and myself he1ng viciously attackerl by a person from one of the communities in my own di.strict because we had flown :Into the district in the morning, flown out in the night, had a meeting with the fishermen and the people of C.reen Island Cove and Green Island Rrook had not heard a thing about it. That was just one example.

I investigated it, and I found, to my surpr1se - I sort of suspected this when I was in attendance - that the group of fishermen who attended that meeting of Plum Point were not representative of all of the communities on the North West Coast, but were representative of a minority numher of communities, That is one problem. Now, we can blame that on the Herring "Fishermen's Association. Ry the way,I might point out tbat this was not the initiative of the provincial government, that meeting, That was the in1tiative of the Herring Fishermen's Association of St.

Barhe, a group of fishermen who got together because they had a prohlem and got a brief did up a brief with the co-operation of the Extension Department anil i nv1 tf'd the minister and his officials and :1.nvi terl the member, myse 1f, to that meeting. 2941

April 3, 1975. Tape 980 RH - l Now, that cannot be claimed by the minister as his government encouraging participation by fishermen. This was their own initiative, point number one. Point numher two, Sir: I do not know how the minister got to Forteau yesterday, whether it was at his own initiative or whether it was as a result of an invitation from the fishermen on that side of the Straits, similar to the Newfoundland Island RfrlP nf the Straits a few weeks before.

But if this is supposed to represent this government's participation, encouraging the participation of fishermen in the development of policy it is a weak, sick, anemic effort on the part of the Department of Fisheries and, Sir, it comes specifically close to the end of this government's term. Now, the minister says he is going to be travelling around the Province over the next year meeting with the fishermen. Good i,;lea, Sir, but why now? Why three years later after it was promised? Probably the minister should have been in that portfolio three years ago.

That may be the answer, but I suspect, Sir, it is more political than anything else, more political. The final months or years or year of this particular term of office for this administration, the Minister of Fisheries goes gallivanting around the Province with his officials and, Sir, what is done at these meetings? There is an exchange. We had three or four gentlemen at one of our meetings had a very great input. We got some tremendous feedback. Unfortunately, three or four people tend to dominate at a meeting such as that, but we did get some feedback, but Sir, what is happening?

The minister is going up and he is announcing that there will be a community stage built in a certain harbour that we, we, we, the minister says, and of course, that is taken by the people as we, the government, we will be building a new community stage in, say, Bartlett's Harbour and we will be upgrading the community stage in Anchor Point, in Pond Cove or Blue Cove or Green Island Cove or in Cook's Harbour or Bird Cove or what have you, we will be doing that. Now, Sir, there are two impressions that are left. One, there is one impression that is left certainly and that is that 2948

April 3, 1975. Tape 980 RH - 2 this government is going to build or upgrade community stages, but this government is only going to build or upgrade community stages if they get money from Ottawa to do that. Now, Sir, I think this government should level with the people of Newfoundland and say that they have virtually given up on the fisheries because every time they talk about improvements of community stages, for example, or wharves or slipways or haulups or dredging of harbours, it is the Federal Government's money that is going to be used to do it.

There is a marine service station going up in Port Saunders, Sir, for which the honourable Member for St. Barbe South, no doubt, is getting great credit and his administration is getting great credit. Where is the money coming from for that marine service station in Port Saunders? Is it one hundred per cent - ninety. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Fifty. Fifty per cent - are you sure it is fifty? Well, I will accept your word. Fifty per cent of that money is coming from the Federal Government, fifty per cent. I thought it was more. I am going by memory now. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROWE: Well, that is - Okay, of all the, how many new marine service stations are being - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Twelve. MR. ROWE: Twelve and what is the agreement for all twelve? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ninety/ten, I believe. MR. ROWE: Now, well this is what I am saying. Ninety per cent of the money is coming from the Federal Government.

Anything that has got to be done with respect to jurisdiction of the fishing stocks is constitutionally the responsibility of the Federal Government and I would say to this government, go in with boots and all on and pound the what have you out of the Federal Government until they act on it and act unilaterally, if necessary to getting jurisdiction over our fishing stocks. 2949

April 3, 1975. Tape 980 RH - 3 Sir, the point to be made is that the government, this present administration and it is reflected in their estimates, is obviously passing as much of the responsibility for the fisheries in this Province as possible over to the Federal Government, while at the same time trying to take political credit for the establishment or location of new facilities. This is reflected in the budget. The budget for this Fisheries Department is something in the order of $9 million, if I can find it.

The total capital and current provincial budget for this Province is $9,700,000 and, Sir, the total federal improvement or involvement or contribution to this government in matters pertaining to the fisheries is $5,025,000 for marine service centres, $750,000 for fish handling facilities through DREE and $2,360,000 for fish plants and water systems. In other words, in excess of around, it is about $8 million, in excess of $8 million federal money is going into fisheries in this Province.

In other words, Sir, what I am saying here is that everything that this Provincial Government is doing is being matched by the Federal Government. Now, probably there should be more, there should be more Federal Government involvement. If so, let the Provincial Government convince the Federal Government to accept the whole, complete and total responsibility for the fisheries in this Province because when you take the salary vote out of the Department of Fisheries, the salary vote out, the salary vote is $1.2 million, you are left with less than $9 million of the provincial funds going into the fisheries.

Sir, the thing that I take exception to is the fact that this government ,while trying to get as much money out of Ottawa as possible for fisheries, when such monies become available they very subtly take the credit for the facilities that are being built with Federal Government money. At the same time, they take every opportunity to criticize the Federal Government for not doing enough for the fisheries. That is what we find hard to swallow on this side of the House, Sir. 2950

April 3, 1975. Tape 980 RR - 4 With respect to the gloom and doom bit, I did not accuse the minister of painting a picture of gloom and doom. I might have used that phrase. Unfortunately, the ministe-r jotted down that one ph.rase only . I complimented the minister for being John the Honest, as I put i t that night, fo-r admitting and confessin g that the Provincial Government is inc:apable and has been incapable over the past three years in copin g vn.th the. fisheries problems of this Province and they now have to go crawling to Ottawa. It probably should have been done years ago. l do not 2951 ..

ArrH 3, 1Cl75 Tape 981 (afternoon) know. But, Sir, it was this government that three years ago made wide:, sweeping promises ahout what they were going to do for the fishery , and I will not hore this committee with weeding it all out again. It is one-and-a-half pages of the Throne Speech. As a matter of fact of any single area or department of this government in that Throne Speech, in 1972, ~arch, 1972, there were more words spoken in the Throne Speech and more promises made in the area of the fisheries than in any other single department three years ago.

Ironically, Sir, three years later, there is less done, IR-1 there has been less done hy this government in the area of the fisheries. There have been more promises broken or not honoured in that department than in any other department 1I w~uld submit. I complimented the minister on being honest and saying, we cannot cope with it. Well, if that is the situation, I would suggest that the minister get in the plane go to Ottawa and knock it out with Ottc1wa.

Twill be the first one to go up and tackle Basford and Romeo and the hoys when it comes to such things as the discrimination, for example, ar,ai.nst the female fish processors in this Province who are not employed in a great, huge fish plant with the proper administration ,md payroll. I wi U he the first one to get on the air and get on the television with the minister and stick the knife into any government, whether it is Liberal or N. n. l'. or Progressive Conservative if that federal government is not going to solve that problem with respect to the Department of National ~evenue.

It is a stupid little technicality within the Department of National Revenue that is depriving hundreds of women in this Province of makh1 r; a decent livelihood and p.c11ning from the1r unemployment insurance benefits. r have as much criticism for any federal authority as I have for provincial authority in that respect.

I have wired Basford, Leblanc, Jack Marshall, the honourable the 1-'jnister of Fisheries - I do not know if he was Minister of l'isher1.es when I sent the wire out, his predecessor or the present Minister of Fisheries) and the President of the Fishermen's Union asking for a meeting to resolve this problem. 295l

Spy-H 3, l97S Tape 9RI (afternoon) t pot a reply hack from Jack uarshall . That 1s all J l!;ot, that he woulcl clo everythfog po11sib le to 11ee to ft that we coulcl r,er a meeting, but that is as fay- a11 we have )';Otten, Sir. The co111111uni ry 11ta)!;e~. Si?", the way the ministrr clescr11'eR i t, I would su)';gest that the way ne~otiat:lons are l!Oing on now, T would say , if you can, i:ive lt back t o Ottawa . t do not knaw if that is a sane approach OT not.

Tt seems that in order for the Province to take ove r t he communitv srane11, tha t the Province want s the federal government to pay 11eventy-flve per cent of upgrading thr m to the required standa rds . I t seems that the federal government ts reluctant to clo that. If there is any way, l say, give it back to Ottawa , the whole thing, hecaus e they are responsible for wharves on 1-•hich t he community stages are built . They are resi>onsit,J.c for clredl!i ng aTound the community stages. They are responsible foT slii>ways and haulups and lllilrlne service s tations.

In the middle of that you have a miserable little co1111Dunity stage which the p rov incial r.ovemment wishes to accerr t he re5t>onsihility for . I do not know. I am not an expert ln the fish eY-ies, but J have seen t he fishermen and the fisher-women trying to work under the circumstances :In my own district. I tend t<' think now . throw the who le thinr, back into Ottawa ' s face, the Tll-? 295 3

April 3, 1975. Tape 982 RH - 1 community stage business. It is like, I am trying to think of a good analogy, it is like, I cannot think of a good analogy, but community stages, wharves, slipways and what have you are a unit. Why separate one aspect of that unit out for a different juris­ diction or a different responsibility. Probably the minister can explain why.

I do not know where the error was made or whether there was an error made or whether we are on the right or wrong track, but I submit that the difficulty that the Provincial Government is now having to gain jurisdiction and responsibility over community stages, it would be just as well for them to give up and say, go on Ottawa, take over because this is what Ottawa is doing with respect to marine service stations and everything else involving the fisheries.

One is almost led to say, Sir, I am not saying it, that when you look at the constitution and you look at the federal involve­ ment in the fisheries, you sometimes wonder why we have a provincial Department of Fisheries at all.

I am not suggesting that we should not, but one wonders why we have one at all when less than $9 million, about $9 million, less than $9 million when you take our the salaries, is being spent in the area of the fisheries by the Provincial Goveniment. $9 million out of $1 billion, nine out of $100,000 million, nine one-hundred-thousands of this budget is being spent in the fisheries which is supposedly one of our greatest resources. Now, the minister has a tremendous problem ahead of him. I do not envy the Minister of Fisheries.

Re has got a monumental problem ahead of him, but, Sir, his administration, when you look at the total salary vote, the total vote, I mean, for the Deparbnent of Fisheries, it is obvious that this administration is not putting the money where the problem is, is not putting enough emphasis on the fisheries. It is reneging It is trying to slip out from under its responsibilities and pass it over to the Federal Government. I say it is time, Sir, that this government call a spade a spade and say that they cannot cope with the problem and that they 2954

April 3, 1975. Tape 982 RH - 2 will do everything possible to get Ottawa to cope with the problem and I just return very briefly again to this whole business 1which I find very distasteful,of an administration taking Federal Government money and expending it, administering it in this Province for such things as marine service stations, fish handling facilities, fish plants and water systems totalling $8 million, take $8 million of Federal Government money, administering it and subtly taking credit for it, subtly taking credit for it for the establishment of facilities using Federal Government money.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you against that? MR. ROWE: I am against any outfit or any administration or any party who, it is unparliamentary for me to say deceives, attempts to deceive the people. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Deceive the people by what? MR. ROWE: By giving the impression that it is this administration that is responsible for putting a marine service station in a certain place or a conmunity stage in a certain place when it is the Federal Government's money that is being spent.

The honourable the Minister of Fisheries, the honourable Minister of Fisheries arrived on the scene in a certain part of the Province - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Does the budget not set out how much money - MR. ROWE: Yes, the budget - how many fishermen in Newfoundland get a copy of the budget? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What do you want us to do? Go out and - MR. ROWE: No, no, Mr. Speaker, I will answer any - The members opposite will have plenty of opportunity to speak or debate or rebut anything that I have said so far, but I will not harassed 2955

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 983 NM - 1 stand here and be harassed by three so-called honourable gentlemen on the other side when I am trying to make a point. Now if the honourable minister would open his ears and close his mouth he might find ou~ what the point is I am trying to make. .AN HON. MEMBER: I doubt it. Keep going • MR. SIMMONS: I doubt it for another reason. MR. ROWE: Yes, I doubt it too. MR. SIMMONS: For another reason. MR. ROWE: I would probably have to put it in baby talk - MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY)·: Order, please'. MR. ROWE: Or repeat it a dozen times for him to understand, Mr. Chairman. A.Ii HON .

MEMBER: Make sense. Mil. ROWE: Now, Mr. Chairman, will I be heard in - .AN HON. MEMBER: Big mouth in a small head, MR. ROWE: Will I be given the courtesy of being heard in silence. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY) : Order, please! MR. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, The point that I was making, Mr. Chairman, is that we find it distasteful for any honourable Cabinet Minister, whether it be Fisheries, Municipal Affairs or anything else, to go around the Province saying that we will be building this facility in this community, when in fact there is no commitment, no commitment. They are going to spend Ottawa money.

It is contingent upon money coming from Ottawa. There has been no agreement to my knowledge, signed between the provincial government and the federal government, that money will be made available to this provincial government for the purpose of building community stages that have been announced,will be upgraded and built in this province. That is what we take exception to. Now if the minister has got something I have not heard, or have not seen, I would be only too happy to hear from him.

But announcements have been made about where new community stages are going to be built, where community stages are going to be upgraded, but it depends upon money coming from Ottawa and no agreement has been signed. It is as simple as that. The same as reading The Throne Speech or The Budget Speech tonight 295b

April 3, 1975 Tape No. 983 NM - 2 or this afternoon, proroguing and calling an election at two o'clock this morning, and by doing that you automatically wipe out the Budget and the Throne Speech. When you are elected or turfed out you have to come up with a new Throne Speech and Budget Speech and this is what is going on here now, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: When the honourable Minister of Fisheries, Sir, commenced his remarks a few moments ago he could not resist the temptation to make some very uncomplimentary remarks about some of the ideas and suggestions and recommendations that I put forward last time I spoke in this debate on the minister's salary. The minister had to poke a little fun in his typical fashion about the lack of coverage that my remarks received. Obviously, Sir, the minister was so wrapped up with his trip to Southern Labrador that he must have missed yesterday morning's Daily News.

On page two it says "Neary raJ>s Crosbie on fishery issues." Then, Sir, in "The people's paper" that is observing its ninety-sixth birthday today,I believP., on page twenty-three, the honourable minister and myself must be slipping, we only got our pictures, the two of us. The minister looking at me, "Neary's speech drives Crosbie to poetry." MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I have often heard of people driving other people to drink but it is the first time that I have ever heard of a speech driving somebody to poetry. Then right down underneath, Sir, the poem was printed there.

Right down underneath. "Crosbie to hold talks with federal minister." You could go all throughout this "people's paper '.,' Sir, that is observing its ninety-sixth birthday today and you will find all kinds of reference to the honourable Minister of Fisheries, who does somehow or other, Sir, manage to get his share of publicity. I want to assure the honourable minister, Sir, that when I speak in this honourable House on the fisheries, that I speak from the heart and I could not care less if I get one paragraph of publicity. It is too 295/

April 3, 19 75 Tape No. 983 NM - 3 important a matter. It should be a non-partisan matter and I was the one who suggested, Sir,some time ago that a Select Committee of this House, I was the first and only member to recommend, Sir, that a Select Committee of this House, representin g members on both sides of the House, be appointed 2958

April 3, 1975 Tape 984 (Afternoon) PK - 1 to take a look at our inshore fishery, because I had a feeling at the time that the honourable minister a1•d the administration did not have a programme of their own. I did that outside of the House and I did it inside of the House. But, Sir, when it comes to publicity the honourable minister is not exactly behind the door. The honourable minister goes to the john he has got his name in the paner or on television or on the radio. John goes to the john. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. NEARY: The Hon. John goes to the john. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please!

AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! The Chair fails to see the relevancy in debate as regards to the subject which we are on. And I could caution the honourable Member for Bell Island that he try to stick to the heading which we are on - Fisheries. MR. NEARY·~ I certainly will, Sir, and I hope and trust and pray, Mr. Chairman,that other honourable, members of the House will be as relevant as I am, in my remarks about the fisheries. I was merely replying to remarks that had already been made by an honourable member on the government benches, Your Honour.

But I am not questioning Your Honour's ruling. I think Your Honour is absolutely right in his remarks about trying to enforce the rule~ of relevancy which we were told yesterday is very difficult to enforce. But, Sir, I do not want to dwell on that because that is all childishness on the minister's part. I want to get down to brass tacks, Sir. And I made a statement the other night, and the other afternoon, and the other night about the Income Support Programme.

And the minister this afternoon challenged my statements and then invited me to take a look at some privileged correspondence between the Hon. the Premier and the honourable minister's predecessor. And I accepted the minister's invitation, Sir, I went across the House, man fashion, sat down and looked at these docwnents, looked at these two pieces of correspondences. Now remember, Mr. Chairman, all the bellyaching that we have heard about 2959

April 3, 1975 Tape 984 (Afternoon) PK - 2 this Income Support Progrannne, You would not know but they were in there boots and all trying to get this Income SuppGrt Programme for the fishermen of this Province. And the minister said that I was wrong and he was going to prove it, and he did not want to table the correspondence. Well I can understand that, Sir. This is privileged correspondence between the government and the minister. But the correspondence was addressed in one instant to the Prime Minister of Canada and in the other instance to the Hon.

Jack Davis, Sir, and that is precisely what I said the other night - that there has been no approach, and I said the minister would get up and say, oh, in conversatidn at an odd little cocktail party here and there in Ottawa, might have mentioned it just in passing. AN HON. MEMBER: Do federal ministers go to a lot of cocktail parties? MR. NEARY: Sir, there is not one document, not one piece of correspondence in the minister's files or in the government files to the Hon. Mr. Leblanc or to the Hon. Mr. Andras two ministers responsible for the Unemployment Insurance Act and for the Income Support Programme, and Mr.

Davis is no longer with us. AN HON. MEMBER: Do they not talk to the Prime Minister? MR. NEARY: Oh, of course, they talk to the Prime Minister. But, Sir, all right I will concede - I will concede that the minister was ten per cent right and I was ninety per cent right because the correspoudence, Sir, deals in a large measure about amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Regulations. and the Income Support Progrannne is mentioned in passing.

I get the impression of reading the correspondence that the government more or less threw up their arms in the hope of getting the Income Support Programme and we are going to opt and we are going to settle for amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Regulations. But, Sir, that is a matter that needs to be followed up, and the advice that I gave th·e minister the other night, and I will give it to him again - and I do not know which federal minister, Sir, it will come under, whether or not Mr.

Andras 1who is responsible for the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Commission, whether he will be the one to implement this Income Support Programme or whether it will 2960

April 3 , 1975 Tape 984 (Afternoon) PK - 3 be Mr. Leblanc, the Minister of Fishe r ies. AN BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Perhap s the Minis t er of Fisheries can tell us ~hich minis ter, which department of the Goverrunent of Canada will implement this Income Support Progranone. AN ~ON. !a!EHBER: Inaudible . MR. NEARY: I think that is very important, Sir . Maybe I am be.i ng naive . Maybe I should take it for grant ed that it is going to be the Federal llini ster of Fisheries responsi bilit y. Maybe it is, Sir . AN BON. MEMBER: Maybe it is . MR. NEARY: I do not know. 2961

April 3, 1975 Tape no. 985 Page l - mw But I certainly would like to find out from the minister. MR. DOODY: We would like to find out too, but Ottawa has been playing games with us. MR. NEARY: Ottawa has not been playing games, Sir. MR. DOODY: Oh, come on, admit it now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the first time an approach was made to Ottawa in writing was back in late 1974 according to one of these pieces of correspondence, the one to the Prime Minister. MR. DOODY: A Liberal election promise. MR. NEARY: A Liberal election promise. MR. DOODY: Jack Davis - MR.

NEARY: But anyway, Sir, be that as it may, the whole matter needs to be followed up. The pressure needs to be put on Ottawa otflerwise,Mr. Chairman, the fishermen need not look forward to an Income Support PrograDDDe in this Province for a long time to come. Now maybe this particular minister, and I am not laying the blame on his doorstep, he has only been there three months, maybe this particular minister will put the pressure on, will take off his coat and roll up his sleeves and get down to brass tacks and work hard for this Income Support Programme. Maybe you will, Sir.

I hope he will, We will just have to wait and see. Now, Sir, there were two or three other matters that I raised the other night that I think are most important and the minister made no comment on these matters whatsoever when he tried to answer some of the criticism that was levelled at his administration's policy by both the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for St, Barbe North and myself in the last two or three days. I dealt at great length, Sir, with this problem of marketing. And the minister, this afternoon, made no reference at all to that, Sir.

If the House will remember, I suggested to the minister and this is a positive, constructive suggestion, constructive criticism that the minister or his predecessors had not yet done their homework concerning setting up a marketing board, either a separate board to market all the other produce of the 2962

April 3 1975 Tape no. 985 Page 2 - mw sea outside of salt fish 1 similar to the Canadian Saltfish Corporation,or the terms of reference of the Canadian Salt­ fish ·. Corporation would have to be revised, expanded. And the minister made no reference to that. What is the minister's intention? Is he going to go and meet with the other Premiers across Canada to try to get an agreement so they can make a united approach to Ottawa?

I would submit, Sir, that this is most important because the Government of Canada is not going to take the minister or the Newfoundland Government very serious if they go up and try to go it alone and say, Mr. Prime Minister or Mr. Government of Canada, give us another marketing corporartion to look after all the other produce of the sea. And the Prime Minister of Canada and the ministers looking at Newfoundland from the vantage point of Wellington Street up in Ottawa will say, well what about Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island and Quebec and British Columbia?

What about all these other provinces? Do they want this or are you the only Province that wants it? And if the minister 1or whoever is the spokesman for the Newfoundland Government,cannot say to the Government of Canada, look, seven out of ten, nine out of ten, ten out of ten provinces favour thisthen, Sir, I submit, that nothing will be done about it. And this matter of marketing, Sir, is more important than anything else that we can do regarding the fishery in Newfoundland at this moment. You can talk about your slipways, your haul-outs and your conmunity stages and your gear and everything else - MR.

CROSBIE: You are getting all excited. MR. NEARY: I am not getting all excited, Sir. I am merely trying to make a point. I am not worried about whether it is going to be reported or not. I want to make a constructive contribution to this committee on this matter. Whether sticky-wicky likes it or not, it does not make any difference to me. All those old fellows around the gallery here are nat going to come down and attack us. They may look at us with askance some times. 296:J

April J 1975 Tape no. 985 Page 3 - mw AN .HON. MEMBER: Sticky-wicky. MR. NEARY: But, Sir, the minister has to approach or the Premier has to approach bis counterparts in the other parts of Canada otherwise, Sir, we will not get this badly needed marketing set up that we need. And we can do everything we like with the fishery. Even Canada can declare unilaterally the 200 mile fishing zone, And, you know, there is another thing.

I was reall,y amazed and amused the other night, Sir, to hear the Minister of Fisheries say that we had already passed a unanimous resolution in this honourable House, Sir, and we 11ere debating another one yesterday and every Tory member who spoke, whether it is here or in Ottawa said, get rid of the foreign fishing fleets, get them outi,ide our 200 mile limit, ge