MG-8048 Fourth Sessi on -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 998 - 8 p.m., MONDAY, JULY 12,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MAN ITOBA LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislatu re Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOM IAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DE RKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGE R, Alb ert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDW ARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS ,C iif EVANS, Leonar d S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LAT HLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWA Y, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLIS TER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS , Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. ST ORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTiiTUENCY Osborne• Thompson Wellingt•::m River He•ights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-R'.ussell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside· Char leswood Interlak e Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Cr escentwood Gimli Point Dougla s Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emer son Dauphin Lac du Bcmnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone• Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Ron La Verenclrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan Rivt�r Rossmere Rupertsland The Maple1s PARTY Liber al NDP NDP Liber al NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liber al PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liber al PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

5397 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Monday, July 12,1993 The House met at 8 p.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) Mr. Deputy Chai rperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. When this

section of the committee last sat, we had been considering the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs. As agreed to by unanimous consent in the House earlier this afternoon, Rule 65(6.3) has altered the sequence of departme ntal Estimates in this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply. For the comm ittee's informat ion, I will read the changes made in the House : Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs, Ru ral De velopment, Decentralization, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and then Industry, Trade and Tourism. Also I would like to point out that Rule 65(9)(

c) has been relaxed and leave was given in the House to introduce new departme nts afte r 10 p.m. CONSUMER AND CORP ORATE AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairper son (Marcel Laurendeau): We will now deal with Consumer and Corporate Affairs on page 24 of the Estimates book. We are dealing with line 1. (

b) Executi ve Sup port (1 ) Salaries $263,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $49,700-pass. (

a) Minister's Salary $20,600-pass. Resolution 5.1 : RE SOLV ED that the re be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $1 ,029,500 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Ad ministration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. This comple tes the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Thank you. RURAL DEVELOPMENT Mr. Deputy Chairp erson (Marcel Laurendeau): We will now carry on with the Department of Rural Developm en t on page 13 0. Under normal Manit oba prac tice , the Min ister's Salar y is tradit ionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department.

Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and proceed with consideration of the next line. 1. (b)( 1) Salaries $361 ,200. Does the minister have an opening state ment? Hon. Leonard Der kach (Min ister of Rur al Developme nt):Yes,l do. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would first of all like to welcome my critics to the Estim ates de bate for the Department of Rural Development. This even ing , I am pleased to introduce my department's Esti ma tes for review, and I look forward to discussing the details of the services and comm itments we are making for the 19 93-94 fiscal year. I guess, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, there is one word that ac tually describes by departme nt's agenda, and that is "acti on." This department is taking action to stimula te economic growth and diversification. We are actively promoting rural co mmu nities as key players in the new and expanding global ma rketplace. We are actively pursuing new me asures to update procedures, services and legi slation related to local gove rnment. *

(2005) As many of you will recal l, there were a number of long-standing issues within the department when I came forward for Estimates last year. Since then the Department of Rural Developmen t has taken definitive acti on to resolving outstanding issues, to examine and to discuss emerging issues and to introduce new programs and legislation to adapt to the changing demands of our society. We not .only start new initiatives, we comple te them.

The credit for our success and the high rate of ac tivity goes to the de partm ent staff and to the many rural Manit obans who have been working with us to address concerns by deve loping innovative solutions. I would like to tak e this oppor tun ity to acknowledge and commend the efforts put forth by municipal officials and admin istrators, the Union of

5398 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 Manitoba Municipalities, the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities, the Rural Development Institute at Brandon University, the Economic Innovation and Technology Council and the many other rural organiz ations and individuals who have been working with the department staff over the past year.

I would also like to extend these comme ndat ions to the regional development agencies, whose work fosters economic development at local levels, and conservation and planning districts, whose work to promote sustainable development will benefit us today and in the future. Over the past year we have com pleted the restructuring process, and we are very pleased to welcome a new de puty minister, Mr. Winston Hodgins and two new assistant deputy ministers, Ms. Marie Elliott and Mr. Larry Martin, to our Rural Development team .

As part of the restructuring we have created two se parate di visions: the Ru ral Economic Development division and the Local Government Services division. These divisions will enable us to focus on new emerging issues and to make our staff more responsive to the needs and concerns of rural Manitobans. We have also created a new Corporate Planning and Business Development Branch to improve co mmun ication and co-or dina tion within the department. This, in turn, will facilitate program delivery and enable us to elimi nate situa tions where there are overlapping responsibilities.

At the same time, we cont inue to look for program gaps and opportunities to strengthen the rural economy. In conjunction with developing a framework for service, the department is examining its role in several areas including entrepreneurial development, tou rism, te lecom mun icati ons, value -added processi ng, agr iculture, supply enhancement and procurement. We will also be commis sioning a major review of the local economic delivery system in the near future. The study will focus on the local, provincial and federal economic organizations with a view to streamlining and join t funding.

With the com pletion of the de partmen t restructuring, we are in an opt imum position to set out on a new year that promises to be as action packed as the last . We have an exciting agenda for the upcoming year, and we are right now working to develop a strategic plan to guide us through each new endeavour. This strategic plan goe:s beyond the boundaries of the fiscal year and beyond the limits of the de partm en t itself. It en cll mpasses all of rural Manitoba and will act as a game plan for the next few years.

We are calling on rural Manitobans and staff in the department to work together, share ideas and gene rate new initiat ives. This province-wide consu ltation process to develop this plan was set in motion in Manitoba's first Rural Economic Develop­ ment Forum on April22, 19 93, in Neepawa. The forum was organized by the department with the assistance and guidance of an advisory group madle up of rural business leaders from across Mani toba.

With over 300 participants from rural busi nesses, local governments, education and training, economic development, corporations and financial in stitut ions in atte ndanc e , rural Manitobans were represented by people with a broad spectrum of views, interest and concerns. The primary aim of the forum was to develop a unitetd vision for rural Manitoba and to lay a solid foun dation for future development by ide ntifying guiding principles and giving priority to certain issw�s. The exciting and productive achievements we n�ached at the forum hold great promise for our future.

I sensed a very powerful commitment was being made by Man itobans as they forged new partnerships, not only with department staff, but with neighbouring com m itte es and fe llo w Manitobans. We made it very clear to the rural Mani toba peo ple that we are prepared to act on the ir sug gestions and proposal s. We also had overwh elming support for the strategy we are proposing for the future. Over 60 percent of the participant s said, yes, to the framework we presented; 25 percent wanted to review it in greater detail.

With this positive reinforcement, we are confident that we are steering rural Manitoba in the right direc:tion and we are letting the people of Manitoba be our guide. In the upcoming months, we will collate all the information from the form and follow up discussions and return a summa ry report to rural com munities. This commu nity-based partnership approach will remain a fundame ntal component to our strategy. Grassroots input has been our most valuable asset

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 5399 when examining current practices and seeking out innovative solutions. Than ks to the co-operation and th e active participation of groups like UMM and MAUM and mun icipal adminis trators and off icials, we have successfully resolved a numb er of outstanding issues. In particular, we have raised the limits for licence fees associated with Transient Trader. The change calls for maximum manual fees of $200 for rural municipalities and urban municipalities with populations to 5,000 and $500 for urban centres with popula tions over 5,000.

We have reached third reading for a new regional waste ma nagement legislation that will enable rural mun icipali ties to com bine their resources to est ablish regional waste disposal sites. This legislation sets new standards for the development, operation and main tenance of waste disposal grounds. We are currently working with some of our northern commu nities, including Lynn Lake, Flin Flon, Snow Lake and Churchill, to seek out creative solutions that will enable them to adjust to industry changes.

Our efforts include exploring options to dive rsify the economy and co-ordinating all levels of government to ensure the long-term viability of these communities. * (2 010 ) Anoth er very impo rtant landmark achievement was the resolution of the policing issue. Through extensive consultation and co-operati on, we have made changes to the Provincial and Municipal Tax-Sharing Program to narrow the gap between the cost paid by municipalities for providing police protection at their own expense and those polic ed under the provincial RC MP contract.

Under the new plan, municipal-cost communities will receive a larger portion of the PMTS funding payments for police services than the provincial -cost communities. The funding shift will be phased in over two years, and an additional payment of $20 0,000 will be provided to provincial -cost co mmunities in 19 93 to ease the transition to a new cos t-sharing arrange ment. I am very pleased with the cost-effective and practical solution that was reached through the co-operative effort.

The new tax-sharing arrangement will be easy to administer, easy to understand and a more equitable approach to policing costs for Ma nitoba commu nities. We are also right on

schedule in implementing our strategy of ongoing and conti nuin g improvement to the assessment syste m. Even property classification portioning, while they have been somew hat contro versial, have served a very necessary func tion. They have allowed us to phase in market- value assessment without the sweeping tax shifts and upheaval that would normally occur with a change of this magnitude. The adjustments that cont inue to occur throughout a ten-year strategy allo w for a natural progression to market-v alue assessment.

With these changes in place, we have already made significant strides in improving the level of fairness and equity in the taxes paid by the various classes of property. In fact, the major thrust of the changes deal directly with the concerns raised by mu nicipali ties throughout the province. We ar e now gea ring up to begin the next prov ince-wide reasse ssment for 19 94. This reassessment will set us on a course for a regular reassessment cycle that will ensure the tax base reflect s a cu rrent and accu rate property assessment.

At the same time, the new ma rket­ value approach clarifies the assessment process and en ables ratepayers to unde rstand how their property has been assessed. Also, in response to concerns raised by municipalities, we are working to redesign the tax sta tements from property tax notice s. Based on the feed back from municipalities, we have developed a new design that clearly distinguishes between the municipal and school board portions of the tax notices. We have also worked with municipal administrators to create new and improv ed designs for the reports and forms that support budgeting and taxation.

As I men tioned earlier, taking action means resolving issues, which we have done, and taking on new challenges to address outsta nding and emerging issues. One of the biggest undertakings for the next three years is a comprehensive review and revision of The Municipal Act and rela ted mu nicipal statu te . Our go ve rnmen t made a commitment to revise this outdated act, and we have now set the wheels in motion. The last subst antial amendment to the act took place in the 19 70s and only scratched the surface in terms of significantly updating the legislation.

Our goal today is to exam ine the act and develop new, innovative ways for municipalities and other local service providers to me et challenges today and in the future. * (20 15 )

5400 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 The Municipal Act and related statutes review will determ ine public opinion on related issues and concerns about Manitoba's municipalities and how they are governed and how local services are deli ver ed. These concerns have been summarized in a discussion document that has been distributed throughout the province. Public me etings will be held around the province to provide ample opportun ity for Manitobans to partic ipate in the consu ltation proce ss.

This grassroots input is a very important aspect of the review, and I am encou raged by the numb er of peo ple who are ta king a keen interest in this process. We have appointed a panel to organize the public meetings, collect the data and prepare a report that incorporates recomme nda tions from our consu ltations with Manitobans. While we are working to revise the acts, staff in our department and regional offices will cont inue to provide services and assistanc e to local governme nts throughout the province.

I am pleased to note that we are increasing the number of economic developmen t offi cers across Manitoba. As these additional officers take on responsibility for economic development initiative s, they will enable our other staff to focus on the more traditional functions of local gover nment. I want to stress tha t we remain comm itted to the part nerships we have devel ope d with local governments, but the department and in particular the new Economic Development Division are also fo ste ring partn erships with bu sinesses and entrepreneurs to promote rural Manitoba.

All of our economic developmen t initiatives are geared toward building on the natural strengths and the resources tha t abound in Manitoba. We all recognize that rural Manitoba is a strong, vibrant player contributing to the province's long-term prosperity. It is our responsibility as a government to ensure that Manitobans have the tools they need to grow stronger and more competitive. We are not saying we can do it for them, far from it. We are saying we are ready and willin g to establ ish program s that will enable Manitobans to help themselves.

I point to the over whe lming success of the Com mun ity Ch oices prog ram . When we first introduced this program, we believed it would run its course and finish by the 19 92-93 fiscal year. What we did not count on was the immen se support and enthusiasm from rural communities. Bec:ause we are still receiving requests from communi ties who want to establish a round table for their area and because we have witnessed the many positive benefits of Commu nity Choices, we hav•e all ocated funding to extend this program to the new fiscal year.

There are currently 41 round tabl�3s in Manitoba involving 81 commun ities. This rep1resents approxi ma tely 40 percent of all municipalities in the province. The Grow Bonds program continues to offer Mani tobans one of the mo st viable and exciting options to invest in themselves and give a boost to the local economy. Approved projects are well on their way to developing new jobs and an expanded industrial base in the local area. The Altona Grow Bond office continues to receive and evaluate new proposals, and I antici pate we will hear several morEl good-news stories in the upcoming year.

The Rural Economic Development Initiative or, as it is better known, REDI is also showing great promise. To date, approxima tely $1 1 million of rural VL T reve nue s have been com mit te d, recomme nded for approval or ex pended on economic developmen t programs for projects in rural Manitoba. This total includes $1 million to suppor t the Aye rst ex pansions, $6 00,00 0 to deve,lop a new crop dive rsification centre and roughly $2.6 million in various approved projects.

During its first year, the department received over 200 preliminary appl ications with about two-thirds bein�r recom men ded to proceed to a more detailed appl icati on . Of the 84 de taile d applic ations rece ived to date, 40 have been approved or reco mm ended and are in the final stages of the approval process, and 30 projects are undergoing actiVE! review. In the budget announcement, our government dedicated $1 2. 3 million of VL T revenue to support econ() mic growth and development in rural regions. This is more that three times the amount of last year's commi tment.

Of that total and in response to requests at the local level, $3.5 million has been al located unconditionally to local governme nts at their discretion because they know best what to do in their communities. By tapping into our Feasibility Studies program, our Infrastructure Development program, or the MBA Studen t Consulting and Developmen t Support projects, a communi ty can access both fun ding and exper tise to en hance its local infrastructure and to help its economy.

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 5401 These programs are getting a positive review from rural Mani tobans and from their com munities and we are hearing equally enthusiastic responses to the ne wes t REDI program, the Rural En trepreneur Assistance program. The RE A program, as it is known, provides guarantee Joan assistance and busi ness support services to eligible new and exis ting busin esses in communities outside of Winnipeg.

REA is unique because it is specifically designe d to ensure cap ital and training are more accessi ble to rural small busine ss or farm-based business and commer cial ventures. While it targets cott age industries and small business operations that may not qualify for other economic support programs, REA can be used in conjunction with oth er government and private funding. Like last year, the REDI program is going beyond its ma ndate to assist com muni ties with rural economic development by incorporating a special component to assist young people.

We recognize the importance of keep ing our young people working and learning new skills in their own home com munities. An essential part of this learning process must start with their education. We must teach our ch ildren en trepreneu rial skills and en courage them to set aside the old philo sophy about educ ating ourselves for a specific job. We all recognize the successful Manitobans in the future will use their education to create their own jobs and opportunity.

Through the Green Team Youth Employment and Parks Enhancement Program and the Partners with Youth program, young Man itobans will have more opportunities to find jobs throughout the summer months. Last year the Green Team alone em ployed 204 youths and worked on 34 project locations for July and August. This year, we are building upon last year's success and expanding the program to provide skills training and employment to about 340 youths over a longer period. That is going to run from May until the end of Septe mber. The Par tn ers with Youth program will also continue this year.

Through this initiative, young Man itob ans are hired by local com mu nitie s, agencies and businesses who receive matching provincial grants of up to $2,000 to cover costs. This year, Partners with Youth is introducing a new component designed to encourage young people to start their own full-time businesses. The key elemen ts of this program are that young people have jobs, receive excellen t hands-on experiences and stay in their rural com munities while local busin esses have the extra help they need to complete local projects.

The REDI program is also providing funding to support studies examining the feasibility of a new initiative that would expand natural gas service in rural Mani toba. Rural communi ties throughout the province are requesting the service as a means of strengthening their rural economies by providing a more diversified energy supply. While it is too premature to provide any specific details today , I would lik e to ind ica te that a thor ough and comprehensive study of the issue is being carried out and that all opportunities are being examined.

I can also assure members that all com munities and interested parties will have an opportunity for input before the decision is finalized. As part of our department's manda te to promo te economic develo pmen t, we are focu sing on a number of other initiatives to improve infrastructure and enh ance the fou nda tion of our rural communi ties. Downtown Revitali zation: The com mun ities involved in this initiative are well unde rway to giving a facelift to their downtown areas.

Because of the success of this initiative, we are currently exploring the possibility of expanding the program to include other interested communi ties. PAMWJ: Through careful all ocat ion of resources and cost efficiency, we are also looking to expand the Federal/Provincial Partnership Agreement on Municipal Wastewater Infrastructure to include mo re co mmuni ties . The $90 milli on PAMWI agreement was signed to provide cost-shared assi stance to upgrade mu nic ipal wa te r infrastructure in rural communities.

While we are on the top ic of conservation and responsive plans for the sustainable development of our province, I believe it is important to touch on the valuable input of Conservation and Planning Districts. *

(2020) These districts are an example of sustainable development initiatives in action. By organizing and co-ordinating different regions of the province, they make efficient use of joint resources and contribut e to the quality of life in rural Manitoba. Both districts have demonst rated they have the local knowledge and ex pertise necessar y to

5402 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 co-ordinate this type of work more effectively than gove rnment. The Department of Rural Development certainly recognizes the valuable contr ibutions of con servation and planning districts, and we are comm itted to exploring ways of making them more cost-effect ive, while providing the same basic services. We intend to proceed with a compl ete review of The Planning Act and The Conservation Districts Act as soon as we have compl eted the consu ltation process for The Municipal Act review.

The review of the two acts will exam ine options to ensure both acts respond to the demands in a cohesive and ef fective ma nner. The main objectives of the review are to streamline, cla rify and mo dernize the develo pment of lan d use app roval processes and to create better links between environmen tal reviews, wate r and land use planning processes and conse rvation programs. I want to emphasize that any review process we implemen t will include the full participation of the public and the ongoing consul tation with stakeholders.

We are also proceeding with the review of provincial land use policies adopted in 19 80. The revised policies were comple ted this past year and are now being considered by the Pro vin cial Land Use Comm ittee of Cabin et. Following their approval, the new policies will be adopted as a regulation under The Planning Act. With each of these endeavours, we are striving to find an appropriate balance between promoting and planning for new industries while adhering to the sustainable development principles that protect our en vironme nt.

We are also worki ng with Manitobans to address concerns related to the environmen tal impact of livestock operat ions. A multisectoral comm itte e, which is made up of producer groups, municipal representatives and consumer organizations has been established in finaliz ing managem ent gu idelines and an environme ntal code of practice for hog operati ons. These guidelines will be available to producers and municipalities in the very near future.

At the regional level, interdepartmental technical advi ce and assistance is being offered to producers and municipalities to co-or dina te the review and approval of large scale proposals. As with all ventures in our department, we are stressing the need for commu nication, co-operati on and mutual undt�rstanding as the key to resolving issues. We have all witnessed and participa ted in enough activity over the past year to realize that partnerships are making a difference. From my remar ks here today, I am sure it is clear to everyone that we are having a very active and very productive year.

While it may sometimes appear that the various initiatives going on throughout the department are running independent of each other, the fact is that they are all gear ed to one very important goal --cn�ating a clima te for growth in rural Manit oba to ensure that rural Manitoba remains a vital growing centre of our province where people enjoy a high qua lity of life. M)l depar tm ent will conti nue to do its part to provide assistance and tools to rural com munities.

I have seen from experience that rural Man itobans have the enthusiasm, the skill and the persistence to take those tools, seek out opportu nities that abound right here in our backyard and to turn those opportunities to their adv ant age. Me•mbers have received copies of the Estimates supplement. I am prepared now to proceed with a deta iled exam ination of the Estim ates for the Department of Rural Development for the 19 93-94 fiscal year. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Chair. Mr. [)eputy Chairpers on: We thank the minister for those remarks.

Does the critic for the opposition party the honour able memb er for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) have an opening state ment? Mr. C:llf Evans (Interlake): First of al l, I would also like to welcome the new staff that the minister has put in place, starting with his new deputy minister who took over, I guess, a y ear ago and the two new staff memb ers, Ms. Ellio tt and Mr. Martin. I have had the opportunity to meet both of them.

I am sure that their support in your department will be beneficial and hopefully we can get rural Manitoba and rural Manitobans back in line with the much, mu ch nee ded input to be able to sustain themselves and main tain rural Manitoba as a large portion of this province. * (20�!5) I thiink, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that the minister has ma de quite a few state me nts here this evening,

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5403 and I would think the minister, using a term, the ball is in his court and has been for the last year since he has obtained the ministry of the Department of Rural Development. I think that we would like to see acti on. As he had mentioned in his opening state ment, they are supposed to be dedicated to acti on within Rural Develo pment. I wou ld think that this minister and this gov ernment and staff and with the realignment of the budget in Rural Development must deal with the issues in rural Manitoba.

We must deal with the issues of getti ng people back into rural Manitoba, stay ing in rural Mani toba, trying to main tain a work environment for young people in Manitoba so that they are able to come back afte r schooling or stay. I think right now, I have not had the opportunity to be a rural Manitoban as long as the minister has, but I know that some of his state ments I find true, that the people in rural Manitoba, and a lot of people in rural Manitoba, want to stay in rural Manitoba.

In a lot of areas there is nothing there for the young people, and some of the people who have been there for many years are leaving. So I think that we have to definitely do somethi ng.

He is talking about all this money that is being comm itted through the REDI program and from Lotteries Comm ission and what-not, but I think that my message to him, and the message from rural Man itoban s, is that instead of just talking about feasi bili ty studies, instead of just talking about what is needed within the communities, they, the people in rural Mani toba, UMM and MAUM, are looking for bet ter di rect ion from the go vernmen t an d assistance.

The minister has indicated that he is going to bring economic offi cers throughout Manitoba, and I would like to be able to give the minister as much support as possible, not politically, but just for the fact of being a rural Man itoban myself, one who is aw fully proud of the fact that I mo ved to rural Man itoba some nine, 1 0 years ago, and perhaps not consider myself a full rural Manitoban, but one that enjoys rural Mani toba, enjoys living there, and I want to see some future, not only for my family, but for others, not only in my co mmuni ty, but throughout commun ities in Manitoba.

So he talks new programs and initiatives, he talks about foundation for future, he talks about downtown revitalization. It is fine to tal k, and I think that being also the new critic for this area, I am sort of a little bit inexperienced as far as everyth ing that is going on within the budget. I was sort of hoping that we would have the opportunity to be able to go through this in much more deta il, so that I could possibly have a better unde rstanding of how the department reacts.

However, due to time restraints that we have, I will just clos e my comm ents and would like to request that we do have some time for some specific questions. I will allow the member for St. Boniface {Mr. Gaudr

y) to ma ke a few remarks and leave us some time to deal on specific issues. Thank you very much. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson : I thank the honourable member for those remarks. Does the critic for the second opposition party , the honourable member for St. Boniface, have a state ment? Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bon iface) : Oui, Monsieur le President. It gives me great pleasure again to be the critic for Rural Development, and I want to express my thanks to the staff of the minister. The minister himself has offe red many times to go to the rural areas with him when he has gone.

But I have never hear d such a lo ng-wi nded op enin g stat ement. I would not have used that comment, but one of his colleagues- An Honourable Member: Those were just point form .... * {2030) Mr. Gaudry: No, I appreciate-! know there are time constraints on this, but like I say, no, we could go till midnight, but then we have to stop, and that will be the end of our Estimate s. There are other departments also. Like I say, I would like to thank his staff for the co-o perati on, and I hope that we are co-operating the same way. We will cont inue to do so.

I would like to go into the Estimates and ask questions, and I would like to thank the minister for his opening remarks. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: At this time, we would ask the minister to invite his staff and introduce the staff present. Then we will move on to line 1. Administration and Finance {

b) Executive Support {1) Salaries. Is it the will of the committ ee then that we pass all the lines other than the Minister's Salary and {

b) Executive Support, that we come back and deal

5404 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 with those two at the end? Okay, then we are going to mo ve on; we are going to pass some lines. Mr. Gaudry: What about the decentralization? How is it going to be dealt with? It is following Rural Development. Mr. De puty Chai rperson : It come s after Rural Development. There is a separat e--okay. We will carry on then. 1 .(

c) Brandon Office (1 ) Salaries $91 ,800-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $53,8 00-pass. (

d) Human Resource Management (1 ) Salaries $1 51 ,90�pass. Mr. Derkach: I belie ve you had asked that I introduce the staff to the memb ers opposite here. I would like to introduce, first of all, the deputy minister for the department, Winston Hodgins. I would also like to introduce Roger Dennis, who is the executive director for the Local Government Ser vices branch; also Ron Riopka, who is the di rector of Corpo rate Planning and Business Development branch ; and Brian Johnston, who is the ma nager of Financial and Ad ministrative Services. Brian is here. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson :

(2) Other Expenditures $17, 300-pass. (

e) Financial and Administrative Services (1 ) Salaries $21 2 ,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $249,1 O�pass. 2. Boar ds (

a) Municipal Board (1 ) Salarie s $297,90�pass;

(2) Other Expendit ures $126,10 0 -pass. (

b) Su rface Right s Boar d

(1) Salaries $23,40�pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 7,800 -pass. Resolution 13 .2: RE SOLV ED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $465,200 for Rural Development, Boar ds, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day March, 19 94. 3. Cor porate Planning and Business Development (

a) Salaries $542, 700-pass ; (

b) Other Expenditures $5 9,1 00-pass. Resolution 13 .3 : RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedin g $601 ,800 for Rural Deve lopment, Corpor ate Planning and Business Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 94. 4. Local Government Services (

a) Executive Adm inistration

(1) Salaries $73,700 -pa ss;

(2) Othe,r Expenditures $22,800-pass. (

b) Assessment (1 ) Salaries $5,092 ,40�pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 ,073,90 0-pass. (

c) Local Government Su pport Services (1 ) Salaries $684,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $349,,30�pass;

(3) Transit Grants $1 ,280,00� pass;

(4) Centennial Grants $1 4,800;

(5) Police Services Grants $200,000 -pass;

(6) Municipal Support Grants $1 ,045,800 -pass. (

d) Grants to Municipalities in Lieu of Taxes

(1) Grants $34,480,20�pass;

(2) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations ($32,540, 300)-(pass). (

e) In format ion Sys tems (1 ) Sala ries $59 fi, 200 -pass ;

(2) Ot her Expend itu res $1 ,946 ,1 00-pass. Resolution 13 . 4: RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 4,31 8,400 for Rural Development, Local Government Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. 5. Rural Economic Devel opment: Provides resources to create new employment opportunities in rural Man itoba throu gh en cou raging an d assisting in the establishment and expansion of rural businesses. Ite m 5. (

a) Executive Adm inistration (1 ) $1 02 ,5 00 -pass ;

(2) Ot her Expend itu res $1 8,500 -pass. 5.(

b) In frastructure Ser vices (1 ) Salaries $1 ,18 6,900 -pass ;

(2) Oth er Exp en ditu res $387,80�pass. 5.(

c) Commun ity Economic Devel opmen t Services

(1) Salaries $2,398,60 �pass;

(2) Other Expe nditures $76 9,3 00-p ass;

(3) Gran ts $536,60�pass. Mr. Derkac h: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just before we pass this resol ution, I thought it might be appropriate to introduce to my opposition critics the Assistant De puty Min ister for the Economic Development Division, who has just joined us at the table, Mr. Larry Ma rtin. Mr. [)e puty Ch ai rpers on: Resolution 13 .5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5 ,400 ,200 for Rural Development, Rural Economic Development, for the fiscal year ending on the 31s t day of March, 19 94.

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5405 6. Expenditures Rela ted to Capital (

a) Transit Bus Purchases $30,000 -pass. (

b) Water Development $400,000-pass. (

c) Sewer and Water $2,000,00 0- pass. (

d) Canada-Manitoba Partnership Agreement on Municipal Wate r Infrastructure $3,520,0 00-pass. (

e) Drought Proofi ng $435,300-pass. (

f) Conserva tion Districts $1 ,757,800 -pass . (

g) Downtown Revitalization $583,000-pass. Resolution 13 .6: RE SOLV ED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,726,1 00 for Rural Development, Expenditures Rela ted to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. Lott eries Funded Appropriations: 7. Rural Economic Programs (

a) Grow Bonds Program (1 ) Salaries $31 9 ,200 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $5 19 ,900-pass. (

b) Rural Economic Development Initiatives (1 ) Salaries $1 40,3 00- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $52,300 -pass ;

(3) Programs $5,71 8,300-pass. (

c) Special Projects $2,000,00 0-pass . (

d) Rural Com munity Deve lopmen t Projects $3,500 ,000-pass. Resolution 13 .7: RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedin g $12, 250,000 for Rural De velopmen t, Ru ral Econom ic Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. •

(2040) Now we will revert back to 1. (

b) Executive Support (1 ) Salaries $361 ,200. Mr. Cll f Ev ans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister in his opening remarks made comment with regard to natural gas and that there is a study going on, that a certain amount of money has been allocated for this. But there is concern out there, and I would like the minister to clarify further and give us more detail as to the study, what is going on with it, why has it been four years since we came to this government, in 19 89, the IDC did, which I was a part of. Since then the IDC has diligently done an enormous amount of work.

Just within the last year, year and a half, the Interlake Dehyd Products has been struck. They have spent a countless amoun t of dollars on studies, have travelled to Japan, ha ve brough t a delega tion here. My colleague from Swan River has also raised the issue with the minister and this government. As we tal ked about in private mem bers' resolutions, my commen ts to the government were, let us get some of that gas, some of that natural gas underneath the seats of the ministers responsible, light them up and let us get moving on this and just find out where we are going.

It has been a long time and that is on record. What direction can you give us today, wha t is going to happen with the natural gas? It is a big issue out there. It is a very important issue to a lot of people. I would really appreciate some answers on that. Where are we going? I do not want to wait, and neither does everybody else. There are a lot of people out there that are depending on some positive answers from this government to move ahead with projects. We talked about infrastructure, we talked about economic rural deve lopment, we talked about ma int aining economic de velopment in rural Manitoba.

This is a great opportunity. Mr. Derkach: I would like to start out by telling the member from the Interlake that over the course of the last year and a half, since I have been minister of this department, we have acted on several fronts. With regard to natural gas, it is no less important than many of the other initiatives that we have em barked on. But let me say that natural gas is not simply an ener gy sou rce that we as a gove rnment can provide to rural communities at no cost to those comm unities.

He has to understand that, first of all, there has to be some major comm itment from a commu nity to be able to pay for and to be able to hook up to that sou rce of energy. It is not a matter of laying a pipeline to a com munity and saying, now there you go, commu nity, link up if you like. Do not worry about the infrastructure that we have had to plow into the ground. Before you can plow any line into the ground, there has to be some work done with regard to whether or not this is an econom ical way of providing an energy source to a commu nity.

The member represents an area where there has been some acti vity, and I might say, over the last year and a half or so, some serious activity with regard to promoting a commu nity and with regard to finding industry to locate in that community. I can tell you that is a result of the action that has been taken by this depar tment through the

5406 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 Co mm unity Choices program. Up until that time, many of our commu nities were very stagnant, and I do not say that of any particular commun ity in our province. I say that of many of our co mmunities in our province where they were sitting back and, perhaps because of the economic times or for whatever reason, were waiting for someone else to do their work for them. Over the last year and a half, we have tried to encourage com munities to use their own resources and to look for answers from within. Many have done that.

I would have to say that the co mmunity of Arborg is one of those commu nities that has really taken the initiative, the Commu nity Choices program, and has really gone to work in terms of activ ely pursuing a viable ind ustry for the ir communi ty. It is that kind of interest and that kind of activity that has motivated us to respond to them as one commu nity among many to look at the feasibility of providing natu ral gas service to that com munity. I have to tell the member also that this is not a small initiativ e.

You canno t simply go out and extend natural gas service to a co mm unity and hope that it will somehow pay for itself. There has to be a great deal of work taken into account when you are dealing with the kinds of dollar s that we are looking at. Inter-C ity Gas, as the member knows , has for a long time had a policy where they will not extend natural gas until it is feasible to do so.

We have indica ted that to assist these co mmunities-we know that in some com munities there is not any hope in them being able to pay back the infrastructure cost in five years, so we have taken the initiative to do a study and then perhaps to work in partner ship with those commu nities to extend the service where it is most feas ible .

There are com munities around our province which, it seems, are poised and ready for developmen t, where the com munity has now reached a point where the homeowners are ready to sign up to hook on to natural gas, and it is that kind of activity, that kind of interest that will assist us in extending natural gas service to some of these communities. But I can tell you it is not a small undertaking.

It is a huge undertaking, and right now between the De partment of Ener gy and Mines an d my department we have staff who are working very diligently at looking at the feasibility of extending natural gas service to the co mmunities tha t are most ready for it. We have been working now for the last year, I would say, very, very diligently. We have assigned at least two staff people who work on it full time, one from Energy and Mines, one from my de partment, who are actively working on it day in and day out with the co mmunities, with the suppliers, looking at alternative ways, doing the cost :structuring.

We have also now had Manitoba Hydro come on board and give us some of their expe1rtise in terms of putting numbers together and that sort of thing. So it is my hope that within the foreseeable future we will be seeing some action in that regard. Mr. Cllf Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, I would just want to put on record that the minister made refemnce to certain co mmunities participating more dilige ntly than others when it comes to na tural gas.

I certainly do hope that he was referring to the Interlake area and Arborg and that area and the lnterla.ke Development Corporation, because since 19 89 this area has been trying to deal with just the things that the minister has just finished sayi ng. There• has been nothing since 19 89. Now, if any one ar ea -and I am not aware of any othe r ar ea- but spe cifically that area and tho se communities and those developmen t corporations that have been working to provide and complete studie1s, it has been this area. Basically, the minister says that it is costly and whatno t, but I certai nly know that.

I certainly realiz e the costs and, I think, so do the co mmunities. But, besides just the commu nity at large of Arborg and the Interlake Development Corporation, I have not heard of anybody from the minister's departmen t, from the gove rnment's office or from Centra Gas doing any type of an initiative study within the areas. I live in one commu nity and I live in the area, and I havet had nobody come to me and say, woul d you want natural gas? Could you partici pate in restructuring your place of residence or business or whatewe r? I really have not.

If I have not, and if there has been, I would certainly like to see a survt�y. but nobody has come to me with a feasibility study. The studies that are going on right now within the dep artm en t and that, I can appre•ciate to a point. The minister talks action. This is action by dealing with some things like this natural gas issue on a front-line basis. * (20!50)

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5407 Mr. Derkach: Well, the member may not know, but during the round of meetings that we had, the regional meetings, the district meetings that were held, ther e were sever al points wher e we discussed that entire issue. I would say that the Village of Arborg and the Interlake Development Corporation have really not been prepared or have not been at a point where they are ready to receive natu ral gas service at this point. As a matter of fact, I met with them last week.

The memb er says he is aware, and he should also know then that we talked about the quan tity of natural gas. Of course, the commu nity itself has not really surveyed its mem bership to see whether or not they can have a 65 percent hookup rate , which is required if natu ral gas is going to go into a commu nity. The other problem that they have right now is they are not sure whether or not this industry they are speaking about is one that is going to be a reality. Now it is a chicken-and-egg thing. We have indicated to them that we are not going to be standing in their way of development.

If it means that their commu nity is ready, then we are certainly prepared to work with them in co-operation. The other communi ty that has been actively looki ng-and I see the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) is here. I atte nded a meeting at their chamber of com merce at which na tural gas was sort of their focal point at their meeting. I indicated to them at that time, again, that we are doing work, and Swan River is one of those comm unities that is aggr essively looking for industry. They have contacted a pot ential user of natural gas, who ma y be prepa red to loca te in thei r com munity.

If that becomes a reality, once again we will not stand in their way of development. We will be working in co-operation and in partnership to provide them with the least expensive source of energy that we can . But what it means is that before that happens, we have to be prepared to have our homework done so that if in fact the project goes ahead, we are ready to swing into action and to take the steps necessary to provide that gas service alm ost imme diately, rather than starting to do a feasibility study at that point to det ermine whether or not we can supply the energy.

We are working not just with those communities. I men tioned the commun ities of Killarney, Melita and Deloraine, in that area of the province. We are working with those communities as well. It is a huge province. We are trying to ensure that, if industry does move in and it looks like one that requires energy, we will be there working with that commu nity. I have to tell the member for the Interlake that we have been in contact with his area alm ost on a weekly basis, and we are certa inly prepared to work with them. When they are rea dy, we will be there to work with them. Mr.

Cllf Ev ans: Get ting off tha t topic, but mentioning the Interlake Development Corporation, can the minister tell me the funding for the RDCs? How much was it cut this year? What really is the future for the RDCs? There is concern out there. I think some of the RDCs are concerned that the minister's department is going to atte mpt to phase these development corporations away, primarily due to the cuts in funding. Some of them cannot take any more cuts. They have done a tremendous service to this province since their inception.

A lot of them, since also the inception of the Commu nity Futures, have worked very hard in their own areas and with their own mu nicipalities and as a corporation to set their goals aside and deal with the issues in their areas that are not going to overlap with Commu nity Futures and/or other agencies. Can the minister, first of all, tell me how much money has been taken away from the RDCs this year? What is the future for the RDCs? Mr. Derkac h: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, despite the fact that we have passed this section, I would like to indicate to the member that we have reduced the RDCs by 1 0 percent.

The reason we have reduced them by 1 0 percent is well known. It is a budgetary decision that was made. If we look at the kinds of services that we have had to reduce in oth er areas as a result of the fiscal times or financia l times that we are experienc ing, the member should probably appreciate the fact that, when we are see ing services in ot her areas rationalized to allow for our budget to be as it was in terms of the deficit, it means that we all have to share in some of that pain, and RDCs were no different.

5408 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 In terms of the future of RDCs, that certainly is something that we are looking at at the present, not that we want to phase out or elim inate Regional Developmen t Corpo rations , but, as the member knows , there are varying degrees of success of RDCs throughout this province. Some are working extremely well and have excellent results that they can point to in terms of their activity. Others are finding it mor e dif ficult an d are finding that com munities that used to belong to them are backing away and hiring their own development officers.

So what it means is that we need to take a look at where we are going with Regional Development Cor porations to ensure that we strengthen them in some way, or we perhaps have to reorganize them so that they become more effective tools in the delivery of economic services in the province. It is too early for us to indicate anything at this time, but there is no design by government to try and eliminate them completely and not have any kind of a structure out there in rural Manitoba, because I think, from my commen ts, the member knows that we place a lot of importance on rural Manitoba.

We have talked about partnerships. We are trying to forge those partnerships in a very positive way. (Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) As the member also kno ws, though, we have looked at other delivery syste ms. We have ou r own dev elopmen t offices through out rural Manitoba. Co mmu nity Futures has offi ces. We have local econom ic development groups. We ha ve the round ta bles. Ther e are many organizations in communi ties now that are trying to do the same kind of thing.

What we are trying to get co-or dina ted in a better way is the way we deliver economic development services in rural Manitoba. That is basically what we will be looking at, rather than looking to see whether or not we should cut this service or not. I might say, if you were to take a look at this de partment's overall budget, you would see that this department is one of very few that has had an increase in its overall budget because of the amount of money we have received from the VL Ts. Mr. Gaudry: The minister, in his opening remarks, spoke about Grow Bonds.

Can he tell us what effect and what sta tistics he has in regard to the success of Grow Bonds in rural Manitoba as far as employment and what it has done to the comm unities that have been involved with 1the Grow Bonds? Mr. IOerkac h: I am very happy to talk about the Grow Bond program , because I believe it is a very effective tool to assist communi ties in utilizing their local capital for long-term economic benefit. This is not a program whereby we go ahead and find proje,cts for co mmuni ties. Rather, we put this prog ram out, and we promo te it as a tool for commu nities to use.

It is up to the com munities, then, to come forward with viable projects that could be funded through the Grow Bond program. It must be apprecia ted that this is a long- term initiative. It is not a short-term kind of band-aid program for econom ic renewal in rural communi ties. Again, it is a program that works in partn��rship with the co mmunity. It is expected that over the next year we will be seeing another four or five projects come forward.

Communi ties are becoming much more in tune with what the Grow Bond program is about today and are sta rting to pursue it in a much more realistic way tl1an had been the case in the past. To date , we have five projects that have been approved throu�Jh the review process. Two of these projects have been announced and the bonds issued. Both Rimer Alco in Morden and the Care Corporation in Teulon have certainly shown that the money is there in the rural communities, that it only takes a very s:hort time to raise that money and to get the corpo1ration going. * (21 00) Two projects we have approved.

At the present time the co mmun ities are negotiating with the proponents to get these projects up and going. So tha t is a total of four. The fifth project was approved by the proponents; they have arranged some private funding and have decided not to go ahead with the Grow Bond proposal. That will happen from time to time. We have also some additional projects that are in their fiinal stages of approval.

Again, the projects vary in size, and they vary in the complexi ty, but we try to do a thorough job in the due diligenc e that is performed on each of these projects to ensure that we do not put the mo ney of people and communi ties at risk. So there is some chance of that project becoming a reality and becoming viable and one where we will see jobs.

July 12 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 5409 In terms of the number of jobs that have been brought forward, I think we have something like 7 4 jobs that have now been created as a result of the projects that have been announced. In terms of dollars, we have a million dollars in Grow Bonds that have been approved. The approvals have resulted in about $2 .6 million of investmen t in commu nities.

With respect to projects being negotiated at a commu nity level, it would be a further million dollar s in commitment from the government, and it would involve another $3.6 million in project investment and something like 67 additional jobs. The projects that are now goin g through for final approval involve a $400,000 bond issue with an additional $700,000 of investment, creati ng something like 20 jobs. Mr. Acting Deputy Chair person, in

summary, I gu ess I woul d say tha t in app roved and recom me nded-for-approval bond projects, we have about $2.4 million of Grow Bond commitments, about $6.9 million in total project investment and a total of about 16 0 jobs in rural Manitoba. Tha t is not a bad record for the first year, and certai nly we expect that this coming year we will even do bette r. Mr. Gaudry: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in your expected results here you are seeing more individuals, including you ng peo ple, pursuing entrepreneurial opportunities in rural Manitoba.

How many of these jobs have come out where it is young people that pursued entrepreneurship? Mr. Derkac h: Are you talking about the Grow Bonds program? Mr. Gaudry: Yes. (Mr. Deputy Chair person in the Chair) Mr. Derka ch: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is difficult to say how many of these people are young and wha t you define as young, but a lot of the people who are taking the jobs in thes e communities are from the local com munities. They vary in age, of course, but a lot of them are the younger people who are married, raising a fa mily.

We also in sist tha t when a Grow Bonds corporation is put together, we have one young entrepreneur on the board and that means that individual has to be under 30. I can tell you that we have had some difficulty in som e com munities finding an entrepreneur under 30, so we have had to work with tha t com muni ty to try and find somebody. So you can see that our co mmunities are not made up of a lot of young peop le.

I would have to say that where we are hoping that this will take us is to allow more young fam ilies to remain in rural communi ties and also bring some young families back to rural communi ties, and that is sort of the underlying thrust, if you like, of the Grow Bonds program because with industry will come the attracti on of young people into these rural communi ties. Mr. Gaudry: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that is what I was getting at. I know it is pretty hard. Will it bring younger people back into the rural com munities? Are we attracting them to stay?

Lik e you say, it was pretty hard to find young entrepreneurs in the local commun ities. I think it is important that maybe we communic ate more to get them interested in coming back to the rural areas. Mr. Derkac h: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member for St. Boniface is absolutely correct and right on in terms of what the thrust is of all of our economic development programs.

When you look at the Partne rs with Youth program and the entrepreneurial element that is attached to it, what we try to do with that program is encourage young people not simply to go out and get a job, but more importantl y to get involved in a project which may lead them to an entrepreneurship where they can remain in that commu nity. If you look at our REA program , the Rural Entrepreneur Assistance program, it is designed for cottage industry; it is designed for business at home or business on the farm or small business in a co mmu nity.

Aga in, our hope is that we can attract that young member of a family who perhaps does not have the abil ity to borrow the money from a bank to get a business going, to be able to come to us, work with us, and then by us guaranteeing a loan, assist them in sta rting up a viable business in a small commu nity. To tha t end, I mi ght sa y we have had overwhelming interest in the REA program. If the projects that we have seen come forward become realities, we will utilize our all ocation of a million doll ars very quickly and will probably be out of money very soon.

We will then have to make a decision of whether or not we put a pause on the program until our next budget year or whether in some other way we can pursue other projects that are viable and of benefit to rural communities.

5410 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 Mr. Gaudry: Again , in his opening stat ement, the minister talked abou t the Commu nity Round Tables and the Grow Bonds offi ce, and the Expe cted Results talks about the grants that will be paid to Commu nity Round Tables. Are there any grants that have been paid out al ready of the Grow Bonds? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in '92-93 fiscal year, we paid out $53,000 for Commu nity Round Tables, and in this fiscal year -( interjection) Yes, because tha t is wher e we have the Commu nity Choices program budgeted in.

In this fiscal year we will be expected to spend something like $50,000 on the Commu nity Choices program. What is interesting, and I should point out to the member -and I would encourage my critics to sometimes sit down with some of the round tables to talk to them about the kinds of things that are occurring in their com munities-that one of the very interesting things I found was that commu nities have strengths in them that they did not realize themselves.

By getting together and looking at where the ir strengths are and working on their strengths and developing a vision sta tement and a strate gy, they are finding that they have opportunities that are right in their own backyards that have been there for some time, but they have really never sort of gotten them out of the-or tapped into them, as the member says, which is correct. That is the exciting part, and I hope it continues. Of course, our staff are working very act ively with the communi ties, and I might say that some very small communities are really taking advantage of the program .

I can give you an example of a commu nity which went through tremendous turmoil because they had app roached the Mani toba Hazardous Waste Mana gemen t Corpor ation to develop the hazardous waste site in their community, and it was to tally rejected by the surrounding area. Everyone would have expected the community to die after tha t, but the rev erse has happened. The com munity has bonded toge ther, has formed a round table, and some very interesting and very positive things have resulted since that time.

We are seeing that co mmunity really working towards its sustainability and also to revitalizing itself. • (21 10 ) Mr. Cllf Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just a few other quick questions, one with regard to the propc)sal by the commu nity of Riverton that was madEI by council, I think, a year ago, maybe a little less, on their downtown revitalization program . The minister and his staff met with the mayor and council from Riverton dealing with their proposal. Can the minister indicate just where that is at with this com munity? Mr. IDerka ch: Mr.

Deput y Chairper son, the community of Riverton , it is true, approached us about a downtown revital ization program . We indicated to them at that ti me that there were only three com munities that had been identified for the downtown revitalizati on program , two of which had already been annou nced : Th om pson and Brandon. It was a program that was designed for those comm unities that did not have an opportunity to pa11icipate in the Main Street program that had been undertaken in the '70s and the '80s, I believe.

With regard to their project, they certainly have an a�1gressive and a very impressive project if it ever comes about. The Department of Rural Development, the Department of Highways, and, I bel ieve , a couple of oth er de partm en ts were involved in some follow-up mee tings to that. I think even the Univer sity of Mani toba , if I am not mistaken, has also been contacted to do some work with regard to the revitalization of their downtown. Although the project has not come forward in any formal way at this point, I think there is a lot of work going on with regard to t he development of the project.

Then it will be submitted, and we will take anoth•er look at it at that time. Mr. C llf Evans: For the minister's information, the university has alr eady brought their different proposals to counc il. Cou ncil is dealing with that right now and in the future. I was wondering whether the dep artm ent itself has taken any initiative itself to be prepared for a proposal. Mr. l:te rkac h: Mr. Dep uty Ch airperso n, the department has been in contact with the co mmunity on a c:ontinual basis. Our economic development officer for the region has b een a member who has been working on the initiative.

As I indicated , the initiati11e is not fully compl ete yet and is not ready for a 1'ormal proposal at this time. When it does come forward, then we can take steps to work with the commu nity to see that it is a reality . I do not know how extensive that project is or what the cost of it is, and neither did the commun ity

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 541 1 at the time when I spoke to them. Whether they have more idea about it now, I do not know. That is something that my staff may know, but I do not know what the particulars of that are at this time. Mr. Gaudry: My last que stion in regard to the Estimates here. It is in regard to a concern that I had raised with the minister previously in regard to the access of information at the municipal level. It was in regard to subsection 143 of The Municipal Act permitting anyone to exam ine (

a) to (f) . However, it was in regard to certain payments that were made in details. The minister in his reply men tioned : In the very near future we will be undertaking a com prehensive revie w of The Municipal Act and we will be inviting interested parties to recom mend changes. Has there been any further study in regard to the access of information for the municipal people? Mr. De rkac h: Mr. Dep uty Chairp erson , the document that was prepared for The Municipal Act review has no w been circu la ted to all municipalities.

We have indicated to municipalities that we want them to share this document with their communities and the memb ers at large in their commu nity. We wan t to see those member s who have concerns like the member men tioned come forward and express those concerns to the panel. It is on that basis that we will formula te the new Municipal Act. Certainly it is something that is important as the member brought forward. It does matter, and we are going to ensure that that in fact is going to be addressed when we move ahead with the new act.

Again , it is not going to be immedia te , but we certainly want to hear from the people who have had diff icult y in tha t regar d and to ex press themselves before the panel, because that is the way that you will really get the ball rolling in terms of get ting that change implemen ted into the new act . Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, would it be possible to get that information that has gone out to the municipalities from your department? Mr.

Derkac h: If I have not circula ted it to the memb ers, I apologiz e for it, but yes, this document was available when we did our district meetings and I had fully unde rstood that my critics had access to the document, yes. I will ensure that the member receives a document, and indeed I would be prepared to sit down and discuss it with both critics at their convenience. Mr. Cll f Evans: I have a couple of very quick questions to end the comm ittee, Mr. Deput y Chairp erson. Mr. Derkach: May I just interject for a minute.

On the same point, I have a document here for the member and it also has the French version with it, so I would like to present it to the member. Mr. Cll f Evans: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, just a few questions on the REDI program to do with the infrastructure part of it. The R.M. of Siglunes was very happy to receive a $47,000 grant through the REDI program for a weigh scale in the com munity which they have long been trying to get through the governments. The questions were in reading the contract in that. It is on a 50-50 basis and if I am wrong, correct me.

They would receive a certain amount up front, a certain amount as the job is being done and worked on, and then a final amount when the job is complete. Is there any other structure to that? Does the department deviate from that specific structure of payment in any which way? Would there be any projects that- this is what they were sort of asking me, saying, well, if we need it, would we be able to get any more money or at a different time. Mr.

Derkach: I am not sure if I fo llo w the member 's questioning, but if in fact he is asking whether or not we devia te from the progress payment approach on these projects, the answer to that is no. We try to ensure that as the project progresses and as phases of it are completed, we then ma ke payment on the basis that a certain amount of work has been do ne. Then a certain portion of the money is held back to ensure that the project is finished not only to the sati sfac tion of the department or government, but more importantly, to the satisfaction of the commu nity.

Then we all ocate the final amount after the project is compl eted , and we try to be as consistent as possible in that approach. To this point I do not believe we have deviated on any projects that I know of. Mr. Cllf Evans: I would just like to comment on the REDI program, and hopefu lly with the monies allocated from VL Ts, certainly with the new monies allocated to the dep artm ent through the VL T

541 2 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 resources, the minister had indicated that the department received $1 2.5 million from lotte ries and that the department itself had increased in funding, but I am sure i1 he looks at the figures, the department itself, up to the lotteries grant, took a $6 million cut. So I would hope that the minister with all his sta tements, opening remarks and that, will in fact be using that money that has been made available to the benefit of all the rural comm unities and the people in rural Manitoba. I would also like to just make a comment.

Since I have been critic, I have requested many times different information in discussions with the staff, and I want to just say that I am very pleased so far with the response that I have had from staff and from the minister's office itself. I hope that conti nues or we will have to go another route, and I do not necessarily know whether that route will benefit either one of us. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would have to indicate that yes, that goes both ways.

Certainly there are times, I guess, when we cannot share all information that a memb er may like because of some third-party confidentiality that has to be respected, but if it is general information about the department, we are only too happy to be as co-operative as possible in sharing with the member so that they can do their job as well. • (21 20) Mr. Deput y Chai rperson: Item 1. (

b) Executive Su pport (1 ) Salaries $361 ,200-pass . 1 .(b )

(2) Other Expenditures $77,800. Hon. Harold Gllle shammer (Minis ter of Family Services) : I missed part of the earlier discussion on REDI, and I wonder if the minister could give sort of a general overview of the types of projects that have been approved. Mr. Derkac h: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, I would be happy to talk about REDI in a general sense very briefly, just to give you an idea of some of the com ponents of REDI which I think are im portant. We sometimes in haste do not really get a full unde rstanding of what RED I is all about.

First of all, may I say that REDI is designed to assist com mu nities in their own econom ic developmen t initiative s. We have several componen ts of REDI. One of them is the infrastructure program which municipalities can apply for or individual businesses can apply for. Ther e was a qu estion from the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) just a minute ago, which I may not have answered fully, but in his question he asked whether or not there was more than 50-50 funding.

I woul d have to say that if it is a single munic,ipality under the infrastructure program, they can a.pply for up to $1 00,000 for infrastructure. But if more than one municipality goes toget her on a project, there, of course, is more money made avai lable to them up to limit of $500,000. If two municipali ties, as an exam ple, come togeth er on a project, there is always an ability to acce!IS more money. So there is that difference which I did not explain to the member, which I think may be important. An Honourable Member: The payment structure stays the sam e. Mr. Derka ch: The payment structure is the same.

The•re is also the Development Support Program , and again this program is for unique kinds of projects which will help a com munity with its econc,m ic base and provide it with an opportunity to devek>p a project that might be of lasting benefit to that c1 ommun ity. Again, there is not a finite amount that is specified for that area because it will depend on the• project and on the size of the project. Again, under this program, the Ayerst example is one that I can use in terms of the amount of mo ney that was all ocated, which was $1 million for its suppo1rt in the development of the Ayerst plant in Brandon.

The• M.B. A. Consulting Program is a very impontant one which com munities are just starting to gelt on with , because we have just recently formalized the agreemen t with the Uni versity of Mani tc>ba. I believe there was an

article in the Free Press on Saturday which pointed to the success of the M.B. A. Consulting Program, which was with I, T and T before. It still continues under I, T, and T, but we have tapped into it. Instead of duplicating administration and all of tha t kind of expense, we have piggybacked on that program and allowed that program to run not just for the summer months but indeed all year round. It enables the students in the M. B.A. program to go out and assist com m unities with financial studies, with bookke eping, with getting their house in order, if you lil<e, in small businesses, especially. It is a progrslm that is very, very important.

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 54 13 The Feasibility Studies program is the one that we started with first. It is the smallest component of the program , and it allo ws for proj ec ts in communi ties to have feasibility work done to see whether or not an economic project is viable or not. We felt that this app roach is important because many of our businesses in rural Manitoba cannot afford the luxury of a large consulting firm coming in and doing a fea sibility study for it and they do not have the wherewithal to do it, so we assist them through the Fea sibility Studies program.

Again, there are limits set under the guidelines of that program , whereby we are only allowed to expend so man y dollars in relation to the cost of the total project. We allo w that money to flow as quickly as possible to let them get on with their work. This is where the bu lk of ou r money has gone to date , mo re in the Feasi bi lity Studies program than any other programs. Under the REA program, again, this is a loan program. It is not a grant program.

Here we allow the proponent to go to the bank of his or her choice, or credit union, and if the project is one that is said to be viable-again, that decision is made by the credit union or the bank -then we will simply gua rantee the loan. We will not guarantee 10 0 percent of it, we will guarantee 80 percent of the loan. So we are only exposed to 80 percent; the bank is exposed for 20 percent. The beauty of that program is tha t it is a repayable program, so it is a business approach to lending money, if you like, to small business. The other thing is that the banks are then doing the administration.

We do not have to hire people to do the admin istration for us because it is done by the local bank. The local bank is the one who knows that client better than we could in the Department of Rural Development. I think this is a very exciting progr am . We have had over a hun dred applications to date from rural Manitoba for it, and we are now in the process of signing agreemen ts with various banks and credit unions across the province so that it will al low them to get into the program. So these are the programs under the REDI umbrella.

Again, you will not find programs like this anywhere else in Canada or, for that matter, in North America. This is unique to Manitoba. We simply want to work in partn ership with ou r com mu nities to en sure that we afford the comm unities the opportun ity to invest in themselves and to grow. We are not trying to reinvent the whee l. Where possible, we work with the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. We have a very co-operative working relation ship. Their Finance branch does a lot of the due diligenc e for us so that we do not have to duplicate the ad ministrative process in ou r department as well.

There is a lot of work that goes back and forth between the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism and our departm ent. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, if I could, to the Minister of Fam ily Services , say that this is, in a very summarized way, the way that the REDI program works for rural Manitoba. Mr. Gllle shammer: I thank the minister for that. Point of Order Mr. Gaudry: On a point of order, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the minister men tioned a little while ago that some information he could not get the critics because it was confidential, but I think the Minister of Family Services sits at the same table in cabinet. I think he could get that information, rather than wasting precious time of the critics here in questioning the minister. Mr. De puty Chair person: The honourable member did not have a point of order. *** Mr. Gll leshammer: I want to thank the comm ittee for that clarification in expansion of the REDI program . Thank you. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson : Item 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(2) Ot her Expenditures $77 ,800--pa ss. At this time we would ask the minister's staff to leave during consideration of his salary. 1 .(

a) Minister's Salary $20,600--pass. Resolution 13 .1 : RE SOLVED that ther� be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceedin g $1 ,235,900 for Rural Development, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 94. DECENTRALIZATION Mr. Deputy Chairp erson (Marcel Laurendeau): We will no w mo ve on to the depar tmen t of Decentral ization, page 14 5. There is no ministerial

5414 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 staff on this one, so the staff can just take their seats. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minis ter responsible for Decen tralizati on): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do have staff here. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Mr. Minister, please bring them up and i ntroduce them . Mr. Derkach: Agai n I am joi ned at the table by the deputy minister, Mr. Winston Hodgins, and the co-ordinator for the Decentralization unit, Mr. Syd Reimer. * (2 13 0) Mr. De puty Chai rperson: Would the honourable minister have an opening stat ement? Mr. Derkach: Yes, I do, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to make these introductory comme nts on Decentralizati on during the 19 93-94 Estimates process. I would, first of all, like to remind the honourable memb ers in the Le gislature that the purpose of decentraliz ation was indeed, and still is, as it was in Januar y 19 89 when Premier Filmon said, the go ve rnment of Mani toba announces this progressive initiative. The mandate was, and still is, to examine government departme nts and Crown corporations in detail to find options for the decentraliza tion of government services.

The purpose of the initiative is to both strengthen rural comm unities an d to mak e the services that government provides more accessible to all of Mani toba. The underlying principle was, and remains, that it had to be economically feasi ble as well as enhancing the deli very of a specific program. Very often in the past, people living outside of Winnipeg have suggested that they felt isolated from the decision-making process. To them the provincial government and its services have seemed far away and not rea dily accessible for people who live outside of Winnipeg.

A commitment was made to the Union of Manito ba Municipalities at their annual convention in 19 89 to move 500 provincial gove rnment and 1 00 Crown corporation positions out of Winnipeg. The official announceme nt- Mr. Deputy Chai rperson: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable member to read his information into the record after the minister has finished, please? Mr. IDerkac h: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.

As I was saying, a commi tment was madl� to the Union of Ma nitoba Municipalities at their annual convention in 19 89 to move 500 provincial government and 1 00 Crown corporation positions out of Winnipeg. The of ficial announcement was made in March of 19 90 that a total of 690 positions would be relocat ed. To date , I am pleased to indicate that we have dece ntralized a total of 631 positions, with another 15 0 positions planned to be moved in the near futu re. This woul d surpass our original commi tment by something like 10 0 jobs.

In tot al, close to $1 5 million per a nnum in salaries is now being flowed to rural Man itoba thanks to this initiative . As ma ny of my colleagues in the House know, transplanting the many jobs is not an easy task. Man) l civil servants were not pleased with the in itia tive . The go vern men t has tried very succE!ssfully, I might say, in accomm odating these individuals. Options for redeploymen t and retirement incen tives were offered to those who were not inte rested in moving.

Many exercised their options to find em ploymen t elsewhere, but I must tell this committee not once have I heard a neg ative co mm ent from the people who have mo vod . Th ese people are now en joying the attributes of rural communities. The high quali ty of life, the lower living costs, as well as greater sense of community involveme nt-it has been a positive experience for all of them. Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, I have heard in the House all the argume nts put forward by both par ties as to the ne gative ef fects of decentralization.

I can honestly say that in my travels across rural Manitoba it is apparent that the oppo:�ition's concerns are not reflective of rural Man itoba as a whole . As a ma tter of fact, co mmunities are now asking what they can do to assist government in reloc ating other departm ents to their commu nities. As minister responsible, many questions have been di rected to me by memb ers of the Assembly as well as the public. I can tell this committee that, under decentralization, jobs were not mov ed from one n1ral commu nity to another.

In some instances this may have occu rred, but only due to de partm ental reorganization, bud getary adjustments, and not to decentralization. I will continue to fulfill our government's commitment to

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 541 5 locate jobs in those areas that have not yet received their decent ralized positions. Again, I mu st stress that the original principle s of decentralization must apply to all moves and they must be feasible and enhance delivery. Efficiency of the department, of any departm ent, in del ivering services to rural Ma nitoba under decentralization have not been compromised. One exam ple is that of the Department of Education and Training.

Here, I might say, that we had a certain numb er of staff working in Winn ipeg when we decided to relo cate the department to Winkler. The Correspondence Branch did move to Winkler, and there was a lot of discussion about the fact that when we mo ved this branch to Winkler that all services would almost cease, that rural Manitobans would not have access to services and turnaround times would be a problem and that the success rate of the students who were taking correspondence programs would suffer. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I would like to tell this comm ittee that we have experienced the opposite with that decentralization move. As a matter of fact, we are seeing that the tu rnaround time has been reduced dram atical ly. We are seeing that staff are less in numb er than they when they were in Winnipeg and have had responsibility added to their workload, and indeed , I have had letters personally from users of the service who have indicated that they are extremely pleased with the services tha t ar e being provided from the commu nity of Winkler.

Additi onally I migh t say, and the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey) is here, but if you compare the 77 percent failure or incomple tion rate that we had with that branch before and compare it to the completion and success rate to day, you would see a very dramatic difference. I guess the conclusion is that we can deliver services from outside of the city as effect ively as we can right here in the city, and just because this is the centre of government does not mean that all services have to be delivered here. In closing, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I would like to add ress dec e nt rali zation as an important initiative in our overall government strategy. We have had to mak e some very di ff icul t and somet imes painful decisions as a government over the last few years. However, I would like to say that we are committed to streamline our departm ents and mak e gove rnmen t effi cient. The staf fing ad justments that departments have had to realize this year have affected all of Manitoba. Rural Manitoba has not been excluded from it. This is more visible, as a matter of fact , in rural Manitoba.

Decentraliza tion, I feel, has suffered the effects of some of these decisions in our rural part of our province, but we must indicate that had we not had decentralization as an initiative there would have been a greater impact as a result of the budge tary decisions that have had to be taken. So at this point I would like to indicate that we will conti nue to live up to our comm itments as much as we can, given the fiscal restraints that we have to work within, and it is not an initiative that has been closed and is dead. It is an initiative that is ongoing.

As a matte r of fact, we have some com munities that are coming very clo se to rece iving some decentralization jobs in the next little while. We will work with oth er de partm ents in government because in order to be able to be successful we have to work with the various departments to identify the positions, and then we have to work with the communi ties that are going to receive these positions and have facilities for them , and it is largely to the work of someone like our co-ord inator, Mr. Syd Reimer that we have had the success that we have enjoyed. So, Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson, at this time I would be pleased to accept some questions from the oppo sition memb ers on the decentrali zation initiative. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister for his opening state ment. Would the critic for the official opposition party, the honourable memb er for the Interlake have an opening state ment? Mr. Cll f Evans (Int erlake): Tha nk you, not so much an opening sta tement as well as questions in the state ment, so perhaps the minister can get back to me with some of the answers.

Yes, decentralization is important, extremely important, and I would like to see more of it, as the minister has indicated. However, I would also like to see more of it to areas that in fact have need for decentralized jobs and in areas where jobs through attrition have been lost in areas and com munities and the opportunity to decentralize some of those jobs is potent ially there. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chair person, in the Chair)

5416 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 I think the minister should really be looking at, when he is looking at decentraliz ation-and I would, in fact, like to sit down with the minister and his dep artment and go over decentralization since its inception and deal with the jobs that have been moved to rural Manitoba and exactly-! hope the minister understands what I am saying -so I can be mo re aware , too, of just where all these dec en tral ized jobs have gone to , wh at departments, and if he can provide me with some information on that I would appreciate it.

The fact is that als o if they are so comm itted to decentraliz at ion, the budget dropped $1 .5 mil lion in dece ntralizat ion, and if we are so comm itted to that, well, then why-[interjection] The minister indicated that decen tralization is important. Now if the budget has dropped, why is it at a standstill then? Why are we not moving with it? • (21 40) The Acti ng Deputy Chai rperson (Mr. Reim er): I thank the member for his opening state ment. Does the memb er for the second opposition have an opening state ment? Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Yes, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairp erson, I think it will be in the form of questions because of the fact that we did support decentralization in the past. I think it is the process when it first started, and I think we unde rstand that when you start a new process of doing some thing, there is always glitches you come across, and I think we accept that. We look at the fact that he is mentioning there is going to be another 15 0 jobs moved to the rural areas, and he has reduced the budget by $1 .5 million.

Are these 15 0 new jobs he is going to decentralize, are they part of this budget of '93-94, or the 15 0, is that going to be over a period of two years, three years? Those are the questions I have at this stag e. Then I am prepared to pass this, because of the fact that we supported decentraliz ati on, and I think we still do support it. The Acti ng Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): I thank the member for his opening statem ents. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chai rperson, I do not know if I can cover the broad spectrum of questions the members asked in one fell swoop, but I will ask memb ers to perhaps restate their questions as we go along. One' of the concerns the member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) raised was, he said he would like to some time go through each of the areas that received decentralizat ion, what department went there and perhaps the number of people who were dece ntraliz ed to that area. Of course, there is no better opportunity than right now to do that because we do have staff here who can assist us with this.

We have, as I said, over 600 positions that have been decentralized, and if I could just go through them. For example, in Altona, Mr. Acting Deputy Cha irperson, the Depar tm ent of Rural Development's business development bond office has been relo cated to Altona, as well as the housing office has been set up in Altona. We have a total of 15 staff who have now been decentralized to Altona. In Arborg, we have the MPIC claims centre has been l10cated in Arborg with a total of four people who have been given to that area. In Ashern, we have Highways and Transporta tion.

That is their Construction and Maintenance program. We have two staff who have been located there. In Beausejour, again from the Department of Hig hways, we have the construction and ma intetnance program which has located three people· ; Hydro with two people; Labour, the fire prevention office with six people ; MP IC claims centre with five peop le; Natural Resources with one person, and Rural Development with two people. In tot al, 19 people have been relocated to BeauS4� jour. In BE1rens River, we have Hydro with one person. In Birtlo, Manitoba, we have Hydro with one person.

We have had a fairly active decentralization program in Brandon.

We have Agriculture with MACC with 23 peop le; Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the Co-op Development program with one person -we have had another program from Consu mer and Co rporate Affa irs, I am not sure which cme it is, but another person there-Culture HeritaHe . the Lotte ries division with five people; Public Libraries with 21 peop le; Education with student aid, with six people ; New Careers with 7.5 staff yet ars; Environment, the Operations unit, with three peop le; Jus tic e has mo ved various dep artme nts, nine people; Hydro with sev en; Man itoba Tel ephone System with three; Rural Develc1pment with four, for a total of 1 01 .

Oh, pardon me. I am sorry, a total of 90.5 staff years.

July 12 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5417 Carberry, we have had Fam ily Services move out to Carberry with a program which would involve 8.5 staff years. Carm an, our Agricultur e department, Soils and Crops, with 31 .5 SYs that have gone to Carma n. An Honourable Member: How many? Mr. Derkach: Staff years, 31 .5 SYs, yes. Churchill, Hydro, with one person to date . Dau phin, Educa ti on, again, with Native Education with four peopl e; the Envi ronment departm ent with on e person; Health department with one person; Labour with one person, for a total of seven to Dauphin.

An Honourable Member: Seven? Mr. Derka ch: That is right. Del orai ne, ag ain, my de pa rtment, Rural Development, our Development office there with fou r people, Mr. Acting Deput y Chai rperson. Dominion City, we have moved Agriculture out to Dom inion Ci ty with three peo ple. Dugald, Agriculture, one person. Elie, Hydro, one person. Flin Flon, Energy and Mines with one person; Manitoba Health Se rvices Commis sion with eight people, for a total of nine to Flin Flon. Garden Hill, we have moved one from Hydro. Gillam, 20 from Hydro.

Gimli, Agriculture with one person; Housing with five; Hydro with two; Labour with one; and Natural Resources with one, for a total of 1 0 in Gimli. Mr. Acting Deput y Chai rperson, Gods Lake, Hydro, one person. Hamio ta, we have Hydro with one person. Killarney, agai n, Fam ily Services with 13 .5 staff years to Killarney. Lac du Bonnet, Hydro with one person. Le af Rapids, Hydro, one person. Lynn Lake, Hydro with one person. MacGregor, Hydro, one person. McCreary, Hydro with one person. Melita, Agriculture from the MACC area, one person; Natural Resources with four peop le.

Minnedosa, we have Agriculture with the Crown Lands branch with 15 peo ple ; Health with one person; Natural Resources with four. Morde n, we have had Agriculture move out there with one person; Health with 13 persons; Labour with one person; and Manitoba Telephone System with six. Morris, we have had Agriculture with two peop le; Cul tu re, Heritage with 22 people ; Na tural Resources, the water management area with fou r; and Hydro with one. Neepawa, Natural Resources, the Lands branch with 25 people.

Nivervi lle, Hydro, one person ; Natural Resources, three people; and other departm ents have moved three other people out there. Pine River, we have had one person from Hydro.

The commu nity of Portage, we have Agriculture with the Man itoba Crop Insurance Corporation with eight; Education in aviation training with seven and a half; Gove rnment Services with land acquisition of 34; Health-! am not sure what program it is­ but there are two people there; Highways, Planning and Design, with seven people; Hydro with one; Labour with various people from various parts of their area with three; MTS with six; and Rural Development with two, for a total of 70 people in Portage. Reston, we have Hydro with one person. Rivers, we have Education with pupil transportation with three persons.

Rob lin, Agriculture with one person; Education with one person in Workfo rce 2000; Housing with seven; and Natural Resources with two, for a total of 11. In Russell, we have had Education with 11 ; Energy and Mines with two. Ste. Anne, Labour, the fire prote ction area with four. St. Jean, Environment, two. St. Martin, Hydro, one. Selkirk, Agriculture, Soil Conservation with one; Government Services with fou r; High ways with four; Rural Development with one ; Hydro with three; and MTS with seven, for a total of 20 to Selkirk. Seven Sisters, we have had Hydro with one.

Shoal Lake, Agriculture, Soil Conservation with one ; MACC with tw o; and Not th Am erican Waterfowl with three; then the wood lot program with one; and Hydro with on e. In Snow Lake, we have moved one with Hydro. Somerset, one with Hy dro. * (21 50) Ste inbach, we have had Agriculture with one; Environ men t with two; the Clean Environment Commis sion with three; Natural Resources with 12 ; Justice with one; and MTS with four, for a total of 23.

5418 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 St onewa ll, Agriculture, the Animal Industry branch with one. Swan River, Natural Resources with two; fish biologist, one; CEDF with one; and Hydro with one, for a total of five. Teulon, Agriculture with two, Labour with one. The Pas, Energy and Mines, one; Environment, two; Hi ghways and Transporta tion, two; Rural Development, one; Northern Affairs with two; Hydro with one; MTS with one, for a total of 10 .

Th omp son, Cul ture, He ritage with one; Hig hways and Trans portati on, tw o; Nor thern Affairs, two; CEDF, 12; and another program from Northern Affairs with four; Hydro, 31 ; MTS, one, for a total in Thompson of 53. Treharne, we have Hydro with one. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) In Virden, we have Natural Resources with six; Energy and Mines with four; and Agriculture with one, for a total of 11 in Virden. In Vita, we have Hydro with one. In Wawa nesa, we have the Distance Education and Technology branch with two.

In Win kler, we have Educ ati on with 19; Environment with three; MTS with four, for a total of 26. This is a total of 631 positions. So I hope this sort of outlines where we have mo ved people. Indeed, there are still othe r communi ties that are on the list which we are trying to accomm odate to the best of our ability. Mr. Gaudry: That 15 0 you were saying you were going to decentral ize, is it over a period of a year, two years or three years? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there was also a question-! will answer that question, as well, but the member for St. Boniface asked about the budget.

What we have found with Decentralization was that we did not have to expend the amount of money that was allocated under Decentralization because, indeed, we were coming in with lower rates for rent than we had anticipa ted , and under the budgetary restraint program, because we did not have to move as many people out to an office, it meant that we could save on office space. So by and large we have saved a bundle of money, if I might use that term, under the dece ntralization initiative, so we felt that this year, we could safe ly adj ust our budget and still live up to our commitmen ts.

The• 15 0 commitmen ts that we speak about we are going to try to accomm odate in this fiscal year as best possible, but I must tell the member we have to also keep in mind the fact that some co mmun ities have space avai lable, and it is not difficult to move into space that is already there, but whe re' you have to go through the process of tendering for space and then waiting for that space to become avai lable, and then redeploying staff, it takes .a while longer.

So whether we can accomm odate all 15 0 this year is certainly unknown at this time, but I can tell you our co-ord inator and our staff are working very diligently to try and move as many and as quickly as we possibly can. Mr.Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Decentralization $500,000, Total Appropriations-pass. Resolu tion 34.1 : RE SOLVED that there be gra ntE�d to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $500,000 for Decentralization for the fiscal year endin�r the 31s t day of March, 19 94. I thank the minister. CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr.

D•:tputy Chair person (Marcel Laurendeau): We will! now move into the Department of Culture, Herita!�e and Citizenship on page 27. Does the honourable minister have an opening stat ement? Hon. IBonnle Mitchelson (Minis ter of Culture, Herlt •age and Citiz enship ) : Mr. Deput y Chair person, it is my pleasure to introduce the Estimates for Manit oba Cul ture, Heritage and Citizenship.

Th rough its programs, my de partmen t contributes to a sense of pride and well-being in Mani tobans, supports self-sufficiency, atte mpts to em power individuals and communi ties, enhances access to the bene fits of participation in society and promoltes racial harmony. The impact of this department's program areas is not onily on our quali ty of life and to our economy throu gh pro vision of jobs and income s to Man itc•bans, but also on the long-term health of hu ndreds of thou sands of Ma nitobans who participate in the innumerable activ ities which make Man itoba a place well worth living in.

July 12 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5419 The province's support for the arts has remained strong in the face of serious strain on our fiscal resources. While federal and civic funding have been sharply reduced, we have tried to main tain reasonable levels of support. We recog nize the value of the arts in enhancing our quality of life and its economic impact on the commu nity in the form of em ployment, expenditures, taxes, and tourism.

We have worked over the past year to bring both go vern men t and private fu nders togeth er to understand our mutual constraints and to plan to streamline our processes, stressing the need for organizations to work togeth er to share resources. Over the past year the demand for library service has been increa sing. At 11 percent of the operating budget, our support to Winnipeg Public is very adequate com pared to other major cities in the nat ion. With regar d to services outside of Winnipeg, I have received and circulated the Public Libraries Advisory Board report to a numb er of my colleagues.

Manitoba's library system faces many challenges, and it is my hope that we will be able to develop long-term responses to deal with them. It would appear that selecting and financing the right automation answer for the future is our key challenge to a stronger system . Last year two ne w regional libraries were establ ished: North Norfolk MacGregor Regional and Valley Regional for the Town and R.M. of Morris.

The focus of our thrust in Historic Resources has been to develop a movement within com munities and commu nity groups across Man itoba capable of ta king the lea d in promoting and preserving heritage sites and resources. Since 19 88-89 a total of 25 municipal heritage comm ittees have been formed and have been invaluable in terms of their comm itment and le vel of responsibility. Seventy-four provincial heritage sites have been designated, up from five.

Ninety-three municipal sites have been designa ted, up from 11, with 11 in the 19 92-93 fiscal year alone in commu nities such as Arborg, Cr omer, Delor aine, Lynn Lake and Sto newa ll. The 14 -me mb er He ritage Gran ts Advi sory Cou nc il, nomina ted by provincial, regional and local heritage organizations, will help gove rnment all ocate lottery revenue earmarked for heritage protect ion. To date, it has recom me nded the allocation of just over $335,000 in heritage grants to 65 co mmu nity or ganiz ations. It will be completing another round of reviews shortly.

Having unveiled Manitoba's policy for recreation opportu nities, my department has been working with local governments to bring a clear focus to the personal , health, social and economic benefits of recreation. A partnership with the Red Cross in a new northern water-safety program has the potential to reduce significantly the high incidence of loss of life from drowning in northern Manitoba. A partn ership with my depar tm ent, the Departm en t of Education and no rthern communi ties yielded the first graduates from our Northern Recreation Director Pilot Project in the fall of 19 92.

While further study may be req uired to bear this out in more concrete terms, the facts are, for example, that in one commu nity with a director for the full term the incidence of crime dropped by as much as 27 percent. This program appears to be very successful in providing communities with the means to involve mo re residents in activities which contribute to com munity peace, pride and health. *

(2200) Manitoba is proud of its diverse multicultural heritage, as we have indicated in the creation of both our multicultural policy and our multicultural leg isla t ion. The economic impact of multiculturalism and its ability to strengthen our commu nity have been widely recognized across Cana da. Mu lticulturalism is a posit ive characteristic of Manitoba, and my department will conti nue to work with the ethnocultural commu nities to develop its full pote ntial. The Citizenship Division was created to improve services aimed at the immigration and settlement needs of new Canadians.

We are placing a high priority on working with the federal gove rnment to develop an immigration agreement. We have also been deve loping pilot projects in conju nction with other government departments. As an exa mple, we have been working with the Youth Jus tice Comm ittee and ethnocu ltural com munities to address services to immigrants charged with family violence related offe nces and their needs. Imm igrant community resource persons will be trained to interpret for probation of ficers, deliver group educational sessions, and mak e prevention

5420 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 12 , 19 93 strategy recomme ndations on family violence in their respective commu nities. Citizenship has also been working in partne rship with Mani toba Highways to translate driver testing materials into mor e than 20 langua ges improving access to immigrants. We have placed a priority on the credentials recognition program, which helps immigrants who have professional or technical training in other countries to hav e thei r educ ation and work experience assessed and evalua ted on a more equitable basis.

This is in recognition of the fact that immigrants contri but e imm ensely to the province's social and economic fabric. Our goal is to make the evalua tion and transition process a more accessible and effective one for immigrants. In my department's effort to meet government guidelines for budget reductions and more effective service procurement, we have begun contrac ting out production work previously supplied by the Queen' s Printer. As a result, Queen's Printer ceased all in-house production services on March 31 of this year.

Potential savings to governmen t as a result of this decision to contract with private­ sector suppliers is expected to exceed $1 million in the 19 93-94 fiscal year. Of the 39 positions affected by this move since February, we have placed 29 people, including one term position, into other government offices. Six staff accepted the severance packages offe red, and only four persons remain on the redeployment list. The department rigorously provided skills evaluation, retraining and oth er support services to make the transitions as smooth as possible for the involved individuals.

The projected $1 million figure is based on several fact o rs, such as the elim ination of equipment replacement costs and savings ranging from 15 percen t to 50 percent on services contracted out. The decision to contract out the work previously provided by the Queen's Printer was not easily arrived at, but this government will continue to review ways in which it can ope rate mor e effi ciently. It will con tinue to make the decisions necessary, dealing compassionat ely with its staff when exploring how to implemen t those decisions. On this score, Mr.

Deputy Chairp erson , Manitobans as taxpayers expect no less. This is only a brief overview of some of the elem ents of the Estimates before you. Culture, Herita!�e and Citizens hip is very proud of its many succel;ses in working with Manitobans to address issues of importance to us and to our future. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr. D1tputy Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), have any opening commen ts? Ms. Jttan Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Deputy Chair, just a few commen ts to begin with.

I think in earlier Est ima tes, we have lo o ked at some of the assu mptions the minis ter has about this department, and I think in earlier years we have establi1shed that the minister does not consider this to be a policy department and that in other years, she has also essentia lly argued that culture is the same thing as leisure and that the two are intercha ngeable . We have also looked at whether this is, in fact , a researc:h department or not.

It seems that where other groups do research, this parti cular department is interested in co-operating or learning from it, but that in itself, it does not in the cultural area undertake much long-term planning with the co mmun ity or, indeed, in the department itself insofar as culture and the arts are concerned. We have seen some initiatives over the years from thiis department. There have been one or two sections of the DeFehr Report which have been implemen ted,

part icularly the changes to the departmental organization. Then� has been, I think, much disappointment in the arts: communi ty about the slowness with which the government is acti ng on the DeF ehr recommendations. I think particularly the initiation of an a1rts act is something which has been talked about for a long time, and yet, aga in, there has not been an arts act or even any indication of it in the leg islative process of this year, so that in looking at the Estima tes for next year, I would like to be able to discuss with the minister whether she is consid ering such

an act and wha t kin d of assumptions or process she is going to develop around that. Them are other sections of the DeFehr Report which I think people would be interested in having mor e public informa tion on , particul arly the recomme ndations dealing with arts education. There are some areas in recreation which the minister spoke of in her opening sta tement which I

July 12 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5421 think are very commendable. We have spoken on these before , the northern recreation directors. I think the minister might be interested in knowing or reading the Hansard for, I think it is May 13 , of the federal House of Commons in Aboriginal Affai rs Comm ittee, which speak s very highly of the Manitoba initiative and of the recreational research and, indeed, the reduction in juvenile crime rates the minister herself mentioned.

That has all been put on the record at the federal level and, indeed, a great deal of surprise and I think welcoming of those initiatives. In other areas, we have seen initiatives in legislation such as the white spruce legislation, and this year, we see the coat of arms legislatio n. I do have some questions for the minister on where this fits with the visual identity program and what the cost of the implemen ta tion is going to be of that coat of arms legislation and where it fits in the Estimates of this particular department.

We also have a bill presently before us which I think does have an impact on the heritage area and I would be interested in hearing from the minister on that. That is Bill 52, which allows donations to museums. I am wondering particularly why the minister has not used the provisions of the-1 have forgotten the exact name of it-heri tage act for that and what the relationship is between The Heritage Manitoba Act and the current provisions of Bill 52 insofar as they relate to museums.

There have been some upheavals in the Culture and Heritage area of the department which we woul d be inte rested in discu ssing , I think particularly the dislocati on as the communi ty side in the Heritage Federa tion and the granting programs and tha t . I think there ar e some ques tions remaining in the com munity about the expenditure of funds from that and whether, in fact, there has been a carry-over to this year and how those funds have been distributed from last year to this year, which the minister might want to put on the record.

The Arts Council, an arm's-le ngth agency, unlike the new Heritage Federation distribution agency, also experienced considerable turmoil; first from a particular series of articles in the press, and second of all, from the abrup t dismissal of its long-serving executive director. My concerns in that area, as the minister knows, have been for her understand ing, knowledge, and concern for the due process in the dismissal of that particular executive director, being careful to maintain the arm's-length distance, but also as a min ister to be very concerned about the due process in that particular dismissal.

So I would be interested in exploring that further. In libraries, I think we are feeling tremendous pressure, both in the city of Winnipeg and outside. Brandon, particularly, has had some difficulties in the past year in the funding of its libraries. I think there is growing concern in the commu nity that the report of the Public Libraries Board be circulated in the public. As I understand it, the minister has informally had this report now for two years. She may formally have had it for less than that, and she says in her opening stat emen ts that she has distributed it to her cabinet colleagues.

I think there is growing concern that this should be available in the public and that the public discussions on that libraries report should begin. I note in the funding area of the departm ent a continued shift away from the small inno vative organizations to the larger organiz ations. I would be inte rested in the minister's justifications and thoughts on that. I noticed there has been a shift in the cultural industries funding, although part of it has been maintained. There has been a shift in the support for publishing and for the encouragement of distribution in the publishing area particularly.

I am interested in the justifications for that and why that particular area was singled out. * (221 0) In looking at staff salaries, there seems to be some peculiarities in this department. I do not mean peculiarities in the sense of anything fishy, but I certainly see some salaries which are going up, and some salaries, particularly at the across-the-board technic al , professional and managerial level, which are going down.

We see, for example, in He ritage, or at the archives or the Arts Branch, that those levels of salaries are being decreased slightly, and we see in ot her areas, in Information-when we get to the particular areas, I will discuss it with the minister, and, of course, the deputy minister's salary has increased, as well. I am interested in discussing with the minister some of the changes in the numbers across the board in Information Services, again, to try and get on the record what indeed are the right numb ers,

5422 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 12 , 19 93 because ther e is certainly a great deal of discrepancy from one year to the next in what is actually written on the sheet. Finally, I would be interested, if the minister wanted to reply, on the overall approach of this department to the three or four principles involved in the funding and enhancement of Manitoba's culture and its cultural industries. We can look at it from the perspec tive of production of the producers, from the perspective of the consumers, of the audiences.

We can look at it also from the perspective of distribution and from the broader context in expansion of knowledge of Manitoba. I know that across the boar d in Canada, audiences have been decreasing in the last two years for arts and cultural activities. It may be a factor of the recession. It may be a factor of a decline in arts education, and I am inte rested in what the minister's understanding is of wha t is happening in Man itoba in those areas and how she sees those areas of production, consum ption and distribution in cultural activ ities in Man itoba.

The minister spent some time looking at the Queen's Printer privatization in Man itoba, and we have had discussions in Question Period over that. I am glad to hear that many of those people have been found alternate employment within the civil service, but I note that there are still several people without employment. I believe this was done very quickly with very little consu ltation with people who had been long-serving memb ers of this department.

I was concerned and still am concerned, as the minister knows, by the provision through Workforce 2000 of training grants to the people who, in effect, took the jobs from these people. So it is that kind of gove rnment policy which particularly concerns me. Mr. Deput y Cha ir person : We thank the honour able member for Wolseley for th ose com men ts. Does the critic from the second op position party the honourable memb er for Crescentw ood have an opening stat ement? Ms. Avi s Gray (Crescent wood): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, because of the lateness of the hour and the fact that we do not have very many hours left in the Estimates process, I wou ld defer my comm ents until perhaps the end, but obviously our concerns about the de partm en t will become obvious as we get into the details line by line. Mr. De puty Chairperson: I thank the critic for that. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estima tes of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item and now proceEid with the consideration of the next line.

At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce her staff present. Mrs. !Mitchelson : Mr. Deput y Chai rperson, I would like to introduce my Deputy Minister, Tom Cars on; ADM of Cul ture, Heritage and Recreation program ming, Lou-Anne Buhr; and Dave Pato n, Execu1tive Director of Adm inistration and Finance. Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, I had the opportunity to listen quite intently to the critic for the official opposition as she talked about the Department of Cultun�. Heritage and Citizenship.

I unde rstand she is 1the critic that will be dealing with the Culture, Heritage and Recrea tion' s library side of the de par:tment. We will have someone else for MulticLIIturalism and Citizenship, another critic, and the same with the second official opposition. I look forwa1 rd to discussion on bo th sides of the department. We have for the last couple of years, I guess, since the memb er for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) has been the critic for the Department of Culture, had many, long hours of discussion on really what role and the ma ndate and the responsibil ity of the Department of Cultur e is and how we serve our respective clients, which, I might say, is very varied. There ar e ma ny diffe rent compone nts to the Department of Culture dealing