May 5, 1999

GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

I would like to introduce the members of the

Committee. They are: Mr. George Sweeney, MHA for Carbonear-Harbour Grace, Mr.

Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains, and Mr. Ray Hunter, MHA for

Windsor-Springdale. There are other members who are unavoidably delayed. They

should be along shortly. I will introduce them at the appropriate time.

The rules have been that the minister has fifteen

minutes to open the Estimates, and the Vice-Chairman would have fifteen minutes

to respond. We interchange between members for ten minute intervals. We hope

that it is going to be expeditious. I would ask the minister, when we are ready

to do so, that he would introduce his staff. I also would say that when the

staff is responding to a question they would identify themselves for recording

purposes. It makes it much easier for the recorder. I should also say that Ms

Murphy is the Clerk here tonight to assist the Committee. We have Kevin Collins

as our recorder - our faithful recorder, I should say.

We are about to begin. I would now ask the Clerk to

call the subhead.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Minister, when you are ready you may

begin, introduce your staff, and you can take the fifteen minutes to introduce

your Estimates, if you so desire.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

For the record, I am Ernie McLean, the Minister of

Government Services and Lands, and I will be dealing with the Department of

Government Services and Lands.

What I would like to do is introduce the staff I

have here and also just take a few minutes to an overview of the department

because it is a wide-ranging department. It has many aspects to it.

I will begin by introducing, to my left, the Deputy

Minister of the Department of Government Services and Lands, Barbara Knight.

Next to her is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Government Services, Donna

Kelland. Behind me is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Commercial and Corporate

Affairs, Wins Morris. Next to Wins is Ken Curtis, the budgeting officer

responsible for our department. Bill Parrot - sorry about that, Bill; he is the

only fellow around here as tall as I am - is the Assistant Deputy Minister of

Lands.

CHAIR: Good man.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I

appreciate that.

I will give a brief overview of the department just

for the purpose to maybe clarify some of the things you may want to ask

questions on.

Government Services and Lands consists of three

branches: Lands, Commercial and Corporate Affairs, and Government Services. This

department is responsible for a wide range of services involving extensive

interaction with the public. The department has offices located in thirteen

communities throughout the Province. We have a staff compliment of over 450

permanent employees.

The department's mission is to protect and serve

consumers, to regulate business and financial services, and to manage provincial

registries. We also provide information on and ensure compliance with

legislation and policies in the areas of environmental health, public safety and

highway safety. We also manage our Crown land resources.

In line with this mission, Government Services and

Lands works in partnership with many other government departments, very much

interlinked with a lot of departments in the government.

The level of the department's funding, for this

year, to carry out the services is $24.2 million. Essentially, it is the same

level of funding as we had last year. The only significant difference is the

deletion of funding for firearms programs that we always carry, which this year,

with the introduction of the new firearms act, is administered by the federal

government. This stability of funding will enable the department to move forward

and build on our past achievements.

Our goal over the next year is to improve service

place a greater emphasis on consumer and public protection, and to intensify our

efforts to effectively manage our Crown land resources. I will get into that a

little later on about the review that we have done.

To achieve these goals the department will be

pursuing a number of initiatives this year. I will only mention a few involving

information technology and consumer protection. On the information technology

side, it is important that our department, especially, get into the technology

the use of technology.

This year the department will begin implementation

of a new electronic application management and licensing system. This system

will improve tracking and processing of the department's large number of

applications and permits, because we are the department that is fully

responsible for most of the applications and permits that apply to government

programs. This will also improve the monitoring of the many inspection and

enforcement functions that we carry out as well.

Of course, once the program is fully implemented

this system will allow us to reduce paperwork and better coordinate projects for

clients as well as respond to consumer inquiries and provide inspection services

much more efficiently and effectively.

We are also involved in the geographic information

systems. For several years the department has been developing the GIS system.

This year the system will be made available to our regional offices for the

first time. That will greatly improve the service that we are able to offer in

the regions. The GIS is a computer based system which will contain all of the

department's base maps, the thematic maps for land ownership, land use, survey

monuments and air photo indexes. So there will be a great improvement. The GIS

will result in the creation of on-line data bases that can be readily updated

and accessed throughout the Province. That is something we have not had before

so it is going to greatly improve it.

I am building all this up so you will ask

reasonable questions.

The department is facing increasing demands for

these types of services and increased activity in this area. It will enable us

to improve services to our clients. That is the bottom line of this department,

to try to provide the best service we can. This year $100,000 has been allocated

to advance the GIS initiatives in the department.

There are just a couple of more examples I will

give you, Mr. Chairman, and then we will get on to the questioning.

In consumer protection, this year the department

will continue to respond to the recommendations contained in the report of the

select committee of the House of Assembly on property and casualty insurance.

For the MHAs that were not here the last time, we had a select committee do a

report on property and casualty insurance, and we have started to act on the

recommendations.

Government is pleased to work with the work that

went on in this report. It was chaired by Rick Woodford. It covers a

wide-ranging list of recommendations. The department has already acted on a

number of those. We changed the insurance rating territories in the Province ad

we implemented the graduated driver license program. The department is actively

engaged in reviewing the committee's report. We intend to take additional

significant actions in the near future.

The regulation of occupations is another area that

the department covers also. As I said in a statement in the House of Assembly

just recently, we have taken significant action with respect to Challenging

Responses to Changing Times, which is the White Paper on occupational

regulation. A comprehensive review of the immense response to the report has

been completed, and drafting of appropriate legislation is now under way. This

will take a couple of years to do because of the immensity of the change that we

had to make in the regulatory process. This legislation will standardize

procedures and improve consumer protection. As I stated in my statement to the

House, the omnibus bill will amend twenty-seven pieces of legislation and we

will be introducing that in due course.

On personal property security, you will recall that

in the fall of 1998 a bill entitled,

An Act Respecting Security Interests in

Personal Property, was passed. This Act was put in place to modernize the

current system for the registration of interest in personal property in the

Province. Our intent is to create a common regulatory environment which will

make it easier to do business in the Province. The new legislation will result

in a new electronic registry; the personal property security registry it will be

called. This will permit on-line registration from any area in the Province. We

have never had that before. This is all new and it will greatly improve the

opportunities. The main users of this service will be the banks, trust

companies, credit unions, car dealers and lawyers who have to come in now and

sift through wads of paper.

I think discussions are currently being held with

xwave solutions and Unysis to develop this new system. This is a public-private

partnership that we have created to result in this new process.

Those are some of the issues that our department

deals with. There are many, many more. It is a very diverse department. I think

that is sufficient, Mr. Chairman, and I will entertain questions now on the

Estimates.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Minister.

For the record, I want to introduce Mrs. Sheila

Osborne, the Member for St. John's West, who was unavoidably delayed but is now

here.

One of you are going to respond, I guess, for the

first fifteen minutes. Have you decided? It is not critical. You do not have to

take the fifteen minutes if you do not want to. When you are ready, you can

either respond or go directly to questions.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, for the record, I do

not think you introduced the other member behind you.

CHAIR: Oh, I am sorry, I did not. Well I should

not, maybe. He should be on time, actually.

Mr. Eddie Joyce is the MHA for Bay of Islands. I

apologize, Mr. Joyce. You are sitting there behind me and it is difficult to

see.

Mr. Hunter, when you are ready.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, and your workers, Government Services

and Lands, to me, are identified by your Government Services and Lands offices

spread out through the Island. I am not sure how many you have, but I am

familiar with the one in Grand Falls-Windsor. I think that was a really good

move on behalf of your department, to have these service offices located in

strategic areas of the Province where the population is more than in some other

areas.

There are a lot of things on my mind about your

department. Basically in some areas, particularly on the east side of St.

John's, it is not easy to access government services, particularly with

licensing - car licensing and driver licensing. For senior citizens - I am not

sure but I believe - they have to go to Mount Pearl for the renewal of licenses.

I think something should be done probably in these

bigger areas so that it can be more easily accessed by seniors and other people

who find it hard to travel outside of the St. John's area to Mount Pearl. I

think probably there is more need for other offices in certain areas. I am not

sure of any other areas, but this one comes to my mind particularly.

In our area, the Grand Falls-Windsor area, I think

there should be more emphasis put on the availability of access to Crown land

issues. I think the staff in there - you are probably understaffed because the

complaints I received were that when people go in looking for issues,

particularly Crown lands, they have to basically go to Gander to get the

information they want. The service in there is good; I am not complaining about

the service. I think that probably they are just understaffed more than

anything.

The availability of mapping and information on land

leases, land grants and stuff like that, is just not there for Grand

Falls-Windsor. It is more particularly done out of Gander, I suppose, and that

is probably more of a regional office than the Grand Falls-Windsor one.

I am not sure about the other areas of the

Province. I am sure you have offices set up in strategic places to deal with

that. I will be asking you particular questions on these offices and the type of

services that you might be planning on developing, increasing, or enhancing in

these offices.

Mr. Minister, I am only just now aware of all the

things that your department does. I must say, from reading through some of this

here, I am very impressed that you do have a very tight and solid ship that you

are running and I am very impressed with the way your department is being run.

I am not sure if Sheila wants to make a comment on

anything.

MR. McLEAN: Do you want me just to respond to a

couple of those issues?

MR. HUNTER: I will ask you questions, if you

don't mind, if I could. (Inaudible) respond.

MR. McLEAN: Do you want me to respond to a

couple of those?

MR. HUNTER: Oh you can, sure.

MR. McLEAN: I can respond to a couple of those.

In reference to the issue of the Mount Pearl

situation, as far as motor vehicle, my understanding is that Mount Pearl has

always been the location in St. John's for many years for the Motor Vehicle

Licensing Division.

I guess the other thing I would like to say is that

what we have been trying to do since I came into the department - when I became

the Minister of Government Services in 1996, there were government service

centres set up in St. John's, Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Goose Bay.

We have expanded that, since I came here, to one in Labrador City, one in

Clarenville, and one in Harbour Grace, with a view to continuing to expand to

the rural areas of the Province; because what we do see in a lot of areas like

Port aux Basques, St. Anthony, Marystown and those areas, is that they have to

travel an extra long way to have government services provided. What we are

trying to do is bring the services closer to these people as we move through and

enhance the abilities that we have and what we have learned from setting the

government services centres in place, putting them in place as we go through.

MR. HUNTER: Do you have Springdale on your list

for a service centre?

MR. McLEAN: Well we will look at Springdale and

the Baie Verte Peninsula as an area like Port aux Basques and St. Anthony. As we

gain revenues we can move into these areas with some services.

MR. HUNTER: Springdale certainly hope for

services in the Green Bay area and -

MR. McLEAN: Yes, on the Crown land side. Crown

lands has been a major issue that we have been trying to wrestle with in a lot

of ways. We are completing a review of the division itself, a whole complete

review of it. Also, once that review is done, we may be able to align our

resources in a different way that will provide a better service out there; but I

think the major issue that is going to improve the service in the Crown lands

area is the GIS system.

Once we get that up and running, that is going to

provide to each of the regional offices the same services you have here in St.

John's. That will enable the officers in those areas to determine the lot

ownership, all the base mapping and overlapping maps that you can overlay on

each one to determine if the place you are applying for is a piece of Crown land

or if it is already taken.

That is going to be much of an improvement in the

type of service that we were able to offer in the Crown Lands Division, and

these are the kinds of things that we are trying to improve.

Those are just general comments to the issues that

you raised there.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, do you have any plans

of privatizing the GIS services through mapping, registrations, deeds and

things? Are there any plans in the future for privatizing -

MR. McLEAN: No, there is no plan.

MR. HUNTER: - access?

MR. McLEAN: No, there will be greater access to

it but it is not going to be privatized. It will still be a government service.

MR. HUNTER: Will there be any updating of

policies concerning leases and grants, and the cost of converting from a lease

to a grant? Have there been any more increases in -

MR. McLEAN: Well we basically went through a

policy change in 1996. In May of 1996 we brought in the market value pricing

policy which put a whole new policy in place for dealing with lands. It saw the

opportunity for people to convert leases into grants. I guess what we have done

is put cabin owners in positions where they can have grants on their land

instead of fifty-year leases.

What we tried to do with the implementation of the

market value pricing policy was to bring a fair opportunity to people for people

to own their land rather than to lease it, which helps both ways. It helps the

government in terms of we don't have to provide the administration costs to all

these lands that are out there, and it gives the property owners a greater

opportunity to move their land around, if they want to sell it or pass it on and

that sort of thing. We don't have to be involved in it.

Also, with the commercial land, we have basically

valued the land at market value which we feel is appropriate. If the government

is going to be distributing all the commercial land then we should get a fair

value for it.

We have tried to move the cottage lot area into,

specifically, grants.

MR. HUNTER: Do you have any plans of freeing up

Crown land for multi-use purposes such as blueberry farms and other things that

only can take place in certain areas? Do you have any plans to make the

referrals less so that people, like blueberry farmers, can get better access to

certain particular pieces of land that is suitable for what they want to do?

MR. McLEAN: The department is always looking

at, and reviewing, the way we distribute agricultural land and land for forestry

purposes, all of those kinds of things. That is always under a review.

We will look at areas of the Province where there

are possibilities of blueberry farming or cranberry farming. All of those issues

have to be dealt with through our department and the Department of Forestry

Resources and Agrifoods because we cannot just, on our own, set out areas in the

Province for any type of land development, other than cottage lots and those

sorts of things, without interfacing with other departments. We have to ensure

that the Departments of Environment and Labour, Tourism, Culture and Recreation

and Forest Resources and Agrifoods are on side. All of those departments have to

be involved in the process of land distribution.

MR. HUNTER: Does your office have any plans of

privatizing inspections, particularly with environmental things, like sewage

systems, electrical, access inspection stuff? Do you have any plans of

downgrading that service any more than it has been downgraded, or do you have

plans on enhancing the service by hiring more inspectors or privatizing? What

are your future plans?

MR. McLEAN: As far as the waste disposal for

cottage lots, we have basically privatized that, if you want to call it that.

What we have done is indicated under our policy now that it is the applicant's

responsibility to go out and get a septic tank designed for cottage lot areas.

In terms of the electrical inspections and that, in

1994 the change was made to go to categories for electrical contractors

requiring inspections from the department. I do not foresee any changes in that

area because it is working relatively well. Unless we see some great problems

created or cropping up, we see no problem in continuing on with what we have.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, I am not sure if I am

correct or not, but is your department responsible for road signs?

MR. McLEAN: Our department is responsible for

inspecting road signs. Just let me give you a little example. On the highway,

outside of town boundaries, the Departments of Works, Services and

Transportation and Tourism, Culture and Recreation are responsible, or the

policy makers of those signage policies. Our department is mandated to inspect

those signs to ensure that they are appropriately placed and they are the right

type of signs. So there are three departments involved.

In municipal boundaries, where there is signage,

the municipality also has input, and also the municipal planning office has

input. There is a whole host of departments involved. We are, basically, the

inspection arm for these policies. We do not actually administer the policy, we

just do the inspections. Well, we administer it I guess, but we don't develop

the policies.

MR. HUNTER: Do you issue permits for signage?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, we do.

MR. HUNTER: You are also responsible for road

safety? You just said -

MR. McLEAN: Yes, sir.

MR. HUNTER: I do not know if you have been

getting complaints over the past winter or not, but I know through personal

experience of driving back and forth from Central Newfoundland to here the type

of material used on the highway for sanding. I notice that this year in

particular there was a lot of bigger stones being flicked back at the car. It is

unbelievable, some of the stones I saw coming back at me. Certainly it wasn't

sand. Certainly that could create a hazard for highway driving. (Inaudible) -

MR. McLEAN: The highway safety that we are

responsible for is more in the line of inspecting vehicles. We are responsible

for bus inspections, heavy equipment inspections and truck inspections.

Basically, the sanding of roads and the clearing of highways is the

responsibility of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. Our

department is more in the line of inspections for the heavy equipment.

MR. HUNTER: Wouldn't it be the responsibility

of your department to inspect the material being used for sanding? If you are

inspect -

MR. McLEAN: I am not sure, I will have to ask

the deputy. It is not my -

MR. HUNTER: If you are inspecting the car, you

should inspect what is coming at the car too.

MR. McLEAN: My understanding is that that is

the responsibility of Works, Services and Transportation because they spread the

stuff.

MR. HUNTER: But do you complain to them to -

MR. McLEAN: I have not because -

MR. HUNTER: No complaints to your department?

MR. McLEAN: If there would be complaints to our

department we would certainly forward them on to Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. HUNTER: You said you are putting $100,000

into the GIS system this year. Is that for the purchase of computer equipment

and stuff or is that -

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: That is the purchase of it?

(Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: The initial purchases, because we

have to get the hardware for the system and also the software as well so that we

can get the program up and running.

MR. HUNTER: Will a lot of this technology be

contracted out to other people or will it be done totally by your department

employees?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, because it is dealing with our

lands and the lands distribution. It is in-house.

MR. HUNTER: I have one question on consumer

protection. You have mentioned the insurances of property and casualties. That

is mandatory now, for any public place to carry public insurance for casualties

and property damages or any claims made to personal injuries. That is a

mandatory law, to carry that for a public place?

MR. McLEAN: Oh, public liability?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Yes. As far as I know any public

building would require - they would be crazy if they did not have public

liability, because if they get sued where are they going to go?

MR. HUNTER: Some small business owners do not

carry the protection. I don't know if there is any way you could monitor that. I

know from being in business, and I have talked to a lot of business owners, that

they had to drop their insurance coverage because of costs. It could be a

concern -

MR. McLEAN: That is the premium cost, is it?

MR. HUNTER: The premium cost, yes.

MR. McLEAN: I am going to ask the ADM of

Commercial and Corporate Affairs to respond to that. He is also our expert on

the insurance industry. I am going to ask him to make a few comments in response

to your questions.

MR. MORRIS: The only insurance in the Province

which is mandatory is actually public liability for automobile insurance. There

is no other insurance that is mandatory.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, on vehicle insurance

and public liability insurance, is it possible your department could find some

type of relief for students who attend post-secondary education to have a

reduction in insurance costs? I know several young people who have to come in

here to go to university or other post-secondary institutions and find it very

difficult, because of their age, to get insurance and have a car to get back and

forth to wherever they are getting their education, whether it be in trades

colleges, private colleges or university. Is it possible that you could look

into some type of program to give them a tax relief or some type of grant or

something to help students get insurance at a lower cost? Is there any way of

doing that?

MR. McLEAN: I don't know, because insurance is

charged by the insurance companies to the students. It is not a government fee.

One of the things that we have tried to do to

reduce the insurance costs to the drivers is bring in the graduated drivers

license program. We certainly see from other provinces and other jurisdictions

that it has, over a period of time, reduced the number of accidents that occur.

Also, it improves the safety of drivers on the highway which - the insurance

companies surely will understand - will allow them to reduce the premium cost to

drivers.

In terms of government issuing a subsidy or

something for young drivers to pay their insurance, they pay the insurance based

on what the insurance companies charge. Generally, I think in this Province

insurance to young people is very high because of the third party claims that we

have seen over the years. I guess a lot of people say it is because of

inexperienced drivers. Young people have more accidents than older drivers,

therefore they are charged more.

I don't know if it would be appropriate for

government to look at a subsidy for paid insurance. I do not really know if that

would be appropriate or not. Again, I will ask Winston to respond to you in a

little more detail. I am just trying to give you the general sense of it.

MR. MORRIS: On premiums for auto insurance, the

insurance industry in the Province is run by private companies, so they charge

rates based on their claims experience. All of the rates have to be filed with

the Public Utilities Board and approved by the Board. Generally speaking, rates

are higher for younger drivers, as the minister just stated.

There is no program of subsidization of premiums

for any class of drivers. Their rates are really based on the claims experience

for that particular class. I think this is probably consistent right across the

country as well.

MR. HUNTER: I thought it might be an incentive,

too, for younger students who want to get into post-secondary education.

Sometimes students just cannot afford insurance and some of them are out there

probably driving without it. It might make sense if we could lobby some other

department of government to see if there is something that can be done to help

them.

MR. McLEAN: I will give you an example. My

daughter is twenty-three and she ran into the back of somebody, causing about

$400 damage. Now her insurance is $1,900.

MR. HUNTER: Girls seem to have cheaper

insurances than fellows. For my young fellow, I believe it was $2,400 that I had

to pay the first year for him.

The twenty-seven pieces of legislation you have

coming up, that is all throughout your department?

MR. McLEAN: No. Our department is responsible

for eighty-eight different pieces of legislation.

MR. HUNTER: Yes. I thought you said you were

going introduce twenty-seven more new pieces of legislation.

MR. McLEAN: No, not this year, is it?

WITNESS: No, that is the omnibus bill.

MR. McLEAN: No. That is the regulation of

occupations. Presently within the regulatory process - and I may need to call on

somebody to clarify this too - there is a number of pieces of legislation that

govern the regulation of professional occupations. What we want to do is to

refine all that into one piece of legislation that will cover the regulation of

all the professional occupations, the ones we currently regulate plus there are

other groups out there that have come to us requesting they also be regulated.

What we plan to do is to combine all those pieces

of legislation, because it is very cumbersome when you have all those pieces of

legislation out there, and there are a lot of similar things. That was why we

did the White Paper on regulation. It was to enable us to get a much better

handle on the regulation of professional organizations. That is the cleanest way

to do it, to put one omnibus bill through that will accumulate and accommodate

all of those pieces of legislation. There are twenty-seven out there now.

MR. HUNTER: Does the CORE program come under

your department?

MR. McLEAN: What is that?

MR. HUNTER: CORE. It is for all businesses that

had to be registered for doing work for government. That is not your department,

is it? It is a certificate of registration, I believe it is call, for

occupational health and safety and sexual harassment and stuff like that on the

job. Does that still come under your -

MR. McLEAN: It must be Justice, I guess.

MR. HUNTER: It could Justice, okay.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, I would suspect.

MR. HUNTER: Alright. Those are all the

questions I have pertaining to the department. I do not know (inaudible).

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter.

Mr. Sweeney, do you have any questions?

MR. SWEENEY: No questions. I do have just a

couple of brief comments. (Inaudible) or I can save them to the end, if you do

not mind.

CHAIR: Okay, you can go to the end.

Ms Osborne.

MS S. OSBORNE: On line 12 throughout, the

Information Technology -

MR. McLEAN: Could you give us the page?

MS S. OSBORNE: No, just throughout your

department, most of the line 12s. I can refer to page 44. There is an

expenditure of $113,100. On page 47, there is an expenditure of $1,308,900. That

is the revised for 1998-1999. There is another projected estimate of $1,296,500

there in Information Technology. On page 46 there was $110,500 and an estimate

of $181,900, there under Commercial and Corporate Affairs. This is all for

Information Technology. On page 48, 3.2.01, Permitting and Inspection Services,

Information Technology, there is quite a difference in that one in the $714,200

whereas it was projected to $490,100.

Maybe we could speak to that one first. Why is

there a discrepancy between $490,100 and $714,200? That is on page 48,

3.2.01.12.

MR. McLEAN: 3.2.01.12. The difference between

what was revised last year to the Estimates this year?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Basically, if you look at the

Estimates, which is the middle column, $714,200, which is what we used last

year, that was for computer upgrades for the Government Services Centres in the

application management system that I mentioned earlier.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: We are getting all of those into

the computer programs and we had to buy all of the hardware and get everything

into action first before we could really get the programs up and running.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. That big expenditure in

3.1.03.12 on page 47 under License and Registration Processing is where you

spent $1,308,900. Am I to understand you are planning to spend another

$1,296,500?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. That is in the Motor

Registration. We are putting in place a new photo licensing system which will

enhance the program and it will improve the quality of the material that we

produce.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. I noticed in the Auditor

General's report - this does not refer to your department, but the Departments

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, Justice and Human Resources and Employment

- the Auditor General was concerned about the systems in place to manage and

control the computer hardware and software, the inventory. Do you have controls

in place to manage the inventory? Do you have sufficient controls? Because you

are spending a fair amount of money, and that is understandable, updating your

systems, but you do have the controls in place to manage the inventory, do you?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, they certainly would be there.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: One of the things with our

department is that a lot of this is new programming because we had done it all

over-the-counter with paper and that prior to this. We are trying to get into

all new programming through the computers. It will save us an awful lot of

storage space and things like that.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, absolutely. I agree with

that. I'm just concerned with what the Auditor General found in these other

departments, that there was a lot of inventory but there was no mechanism in

place to control the inventory. In some cases there were computers on paper but

they did not exist and vice versa. As well, do you have a mechanism in place to

review the software that is going on the computer to ensure that it is applied

only to the equipment for which it was purchased?

MR. McLEAN: I will have to ask somebody else to

respond to that.

MS S. OSBORNE: In other words, only authorized

software per computer.

MS KNIGHT: Yes, I think we do have sufficient

auditing mechanisms to ensure that. We keep lists of all the computer equipment

that is distributed throughout our department. Our employees are authorized to

use certain programs and not others. I'm not aware of any problems in that

aspect.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, because with such an

amount of inventory that could very easily happen, and then the Auditor General

would be around probably to your department.

That is enough on the computers. Your department is

responsible for public health and safety. Would you be responsible for the

safety of the school buses?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Are there any plans in place to

install seat belts on school buses? I guess you have been asked that a lot.

MR. McLEAN: Yes. I guess there has been also a

fair amount of study done into that issue as well. As far as I know to date,

there are no plans to install seat belts for the passengers in buses; but, in

terms of the safety to the buses, we do regular inspections of buses.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, I am aware of that.

MR. McLEAN: Maybe somebody else can respond to

that - Barb - if there is anything further to what I said.

MS KNIGHT: My understanding is that the

national Canadian regulations for school buses do not require seat belts. That

is for school buses in all areas, and that is what we are going by.

MS S. OSBORNE: Because they do not require them

- and this is not argumentative - you often see a school bus with a load of

children going out over the road. You know you have your own seat belt on and

you wonder, if they slipped or whatever; there would be this mass of thirty-five

or forty children just - they would be projected missiles, really. I know that

it would be quite costly but sometimes things do not have a cost, or things are

priceless. Okay, that is all I want to ask about that.

I would like to talk about one of the bills that

was introduced in December of 1993, and that is the Smoke-Free Environment Act.

It was introduced by the Department of Health but I understand it is now under

the Department of Government Services and Lands.

MS KNIGHT: We do the inspections. The policy is

with the Department of Health. Our government services inspectors do the

inspection of facilities to ensure that the regulations are being complied with.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

How many smoke cops - I guess that is the name -

how many inspectors do you have?

MS KNIGHT: Well, we do not have inspectors who

just do the one thing. We have environmental health inspectors. They would do a

number of different inspections. We have inspectors located throughout the

Province. Offhand, I do not know the exact -

WITNESS: Twenty-four.

MS KNIGHT: Twenty-four, I am told, all

totalled, across the Province.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. How many calls do you get

regarding smoking, or people violating the Smoke-Free Environment Act?

MS KNIGHT: I don't have that information.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MS KNIGHT: We can try to get it for you.

MS S. OSBORNE: I would really appreciate it.

MS KNIGHT: I am not aware, actually, of - it is

not so many that it has ever been brought to my attention. I have no idea, to be

quite honest.

MS S. OSBORNE: I am a bit concerned about the

enforcement of that act, and I guess that comes from a personal thing. Sometimes

when people are physically handicapped, a building is made accessible by a ramp;

it is wheelchair accessible. When people have a handicap that is not visible - a

breathing problem, or something wrong with their lungs - many places in the

Province are not accessible to these people.

A lot of people I know, and people who are related

to me, have found that their lives are really curtailed by buildings being

inaccessible because the owners, the operators, the managers or whatever, do not

abide by the Smoke-Free Environment Act, and that is a fact. I know that some of

them have made calls to the department. I am not sure if inspectors have gone

out.

MR. McLEAN: I would suspect that any time there

is an inquiry to any of our service centres where there is an inspection

required, my understanding from our staff is that they always go and do the

inspection. Now what they may come up with may not be what somebody expected

them to come up with, which I would assume is a fair amount of the time.

I look at one thing; you look at bingo halls and

there is a space set aside. You have to walk through the smoke to get in there -

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, but I am not talking about

bingo.

MR. McLEAN: - and those types of things.

There is a variance of ways that you can deal with

the smoke laws. Sometimes they are fairly difficult, and probably the inspectors

make judgement calls.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

Could I suggest at this time probably a bit more

advertising? I do not suggest that you go into millions in advertising, but that

a bit more awareness be made; or is it the Department of Health that should do

that?

MR. McLEAN: In terms of promoting the

smoke-free environment, I would probably think that we would do it in

conjunction with the Department of -

MS S. OSBORNE: The Department of Health.

MR. McLEAN: - Environment more than anything. I

suppose Health would also be involved in that.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

I think if there were a couple of fines imposed,

and that was made public, people would probably start to respond to that. What I

am finding out there, in places of which I speak, is that people are saying:

Well, yes, there is a rule but nobody comes around, kind of thing.

People are not as aware of it as they would be of,

say, underage drinking in a club downtown. People are more aware that they have

to abide by that than they are aware that they have to abide by the Smoke-Free

Environment Act.

Thank you. That is all I have.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister -

CHAIR: Go ahead, (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Minister, under 1.2.01. on page 43,

could you tell me why there was a significant increase in Salaries? That was in

Executive Support. Was there an increase in office support, staff support?

MR. McLEAN: Well, there was actually funding

set aside for an ADM position. Also, I think there was a planning position -

WITNESS: Yes, (inaudible) position.

MR. McLEAN: - or a strategic planning position,

because we were trying to do a plan for the department to give us a better idea

of how to do our jobs.

MR. HUNTER: What was the responsibility of the

ADM?

MR. McLEAN: That was the position for - I

believe he was on a special -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: (Inaudible).

Yes, we changed assistant deputy ministers in

December, was it?

WITNESS: January.

MR. McLEAN: In December or early January. The

ADM that we took out, we put into a special project which will conclude, I

think, in June or July. That is a one-time thing. That funding will then go back

down to $542,000.

MR. HUNTER: Where does the ADM go after he is

finished?

MR. McLEAN: He will be out the door.

MR. HUNTER: Was there any provision made for

extra secretarial staff?

MR. McLEAN: No, not in that situation. The

secretarial staff was already there.

MR. HUNTER: In Executive Support, was there

any...?

MR. McLEAN: No, none.

MR. HUNTER: So this was because of one -

MR. McLEAN: Two positions.

MR. HUNTER: Two positions?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Also, Mr. Minister, there was still

an increase on 2.1.04., Insurance and Pensions, from budgeted to the Estimates.

What initiated the increase in Salaries?

MR. McLEAN: Under .01?

MR. HUNTER: Under .01.

MR. McLEAN: From $423,900 to $428,900?

MS S. OSBORNE: No, from $388,300 to $423,900.

MR. McLEAN: Okay. What was that one, Barb?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Okay, it is was the reinstatement

of funding for a position that was inadvertently omitted last year. Somebody did

not pick it up last year. It was a regular position but we did not budget for it

last year so we had to put it in 1998.

MR. HUNTER: Was that for anything like

secretarial support or office support?

MR. McLEAN: No, that probably would have been

for one of the officers in that division.

MR. HUNTER: What were the duties of the

officer?

MR. McLEAN: I do not know. What specific

duties, Wins?

MR. MORRIS: The particular position that was

inadvertently omitted the previous year was actually the pension analyst, an

individual who we administer to supervise pension plans throughout the Province.

There are two staff in that division and one of them, the analyst, was

inadvertently omitted. She has been there for a number of years but it was just

an error in last year's budget. She stayed on staff; she did get paid. We found

the money elsewhere.

MR. HUNTER: Under 3.3.01., page 49, Mr.

Minister.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, Sir.

MR. HUNTER: Purchased Services, budgeted at

$10,000 and estimated for $21,500. What does that include for Purchased

Services?

MR. McLEAN: Okay, $21,500?

MR. HUNTER: Page 49, 3.3.01.06.

MR. McLEAN: The increase covered the cost of

printing birth certificates, marriage certificates, marriage licenses and death

certificates. The reason is that, previous to us taking Vital Statistics out of

health and moving them all into our department, it was funded under the other

department. We had to take on that budget as well when we took on all of these

responsibilities.

MR. HUNTER: Okay.

Just above that, Mr. Minister, 3.2.02.01., there is

some discrepancy in Salaries budgeted for 1998/1999, revised, and then the

estimated. What would be the cause of that?

MR. McLEAN: There were a few vacancies created

for part of the year, while the jobs were vacant, and then refilled.

MR. HUNTER: Was that any secretarial support

staff?

MR. McLEAN: No, I think that would probably be

the officers as well. I will ask - who is responsible for Vital Statistics,

Donna?

We were changing people around, we were moving

positions around. I think it would probably be officers, because all the

secretarial staff we have had in place for the last few years. Most of the

people we moved around were the actual officers who do the distribution of these

certificates, licenses, and that sort of thing.

I do not know what they are called. What are the

positions called, anyway, in that division, Vital Statistics?

MS KELLAND: I am sorry, Minister.

It is 3.3.01., Support Services?

MR. McLEAN: No, Vital Statistics Registry. That

is the one you are on, isn't it?

MR. HUNTER: The one I asked you about,

Salaries?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: It is 3.2.02.01.

MR. McLEAN: Sorry, I am on the wrong page.

MR. HUNTER: Page 49.

MS KELLAND: There were a couple of differences

there. We shifted one position from regional services into support services.

That was a word processing operator who had been working there anyway and we

just shifted the - it was a reallocation of the dollars that we had from one

division to another.

In addition, there were a couple of positions

associated with our taking over of the liquor control function from the

Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, and those salaries came in part way through the

year. That is where you see the differences year over year.

MR. HUNTER: On the next page, Mr. Minister,

4.1.01., page 50, the difference in .01., Salaries.

MR. McLEAN: That is in the Lands Division -

Crown Lands it is called?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: The difference from the Revised or

the Estimates for this year?

MR. HUNTER: The difference from the Revised to

the Estimates, yes.

MR. McLEAN: We had additional funding to cover

the cost of restructuring the division. I think we are putting four new staff in

the Lands Division. Are we putting four new staff?

WITNESS: Six.

MR. McLEAN: Six new staff for the Lands

Division. We talked earlier about improving the services, and this is

(inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: That was in different centres?

MR. McLEAN: I think they go into different

service centres.

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, into different areas. That is

as a result of the review that we had done in the division. We took a large

number of people out a few years ago, on the downsizing, and found we could not

operate sufficiently with less than the six we need.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, has there been any

addition to your office's support, secretarial staff?

MR. McLEAN: To mine?

MR. HUNTER: Yes, in the past few months?

MR. McLEAN: No, there has not.

MR. HUNTER: No support to your assistants -

secretarial support to your assistants or ADMs or deputy ministers?

MR. McLEAN: No, I do not think, is there?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: That is not an ADM. No, there has

not been.

MR. HUNTER: No extra employees hired in your

department, in your office, in the past two or three months?

MR. McLEAN: For the department?

MR. HUNTER: In your office, in your immediate

ministerial office.

MR. McLEAN: Are you talking about my office,

the political office?

MR. HUNTER: Yes, in your office, not your

outside district.

MR. McLEAN: Okay, my political office?

MR. HUNTER: Yes, your political office.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, we had one employee

transferred over. I am not sure where she came from. Where did she come from?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Executive -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: I think she was probably with the

House.

MR. HUNTER: Are you at liberty to tell me the

name?

MR. McLEAN: The name of the employee?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Andrea. What is her last name?

WITNESS: Kavanagh.

MR. McLEAN: Kavanagh.

MR. HUNTER: Andrea Kavanagh.

Mr. Minister, are you at liberty to tell me her

salary?

MR. McLEAN: Her salary? I could not tell you; I

do not know. I do not know if it is here. It is probably around $28,000 or

$29,000 as far as I know.

MR. HUNTER: What would be her duties in that

position?

MR. McLEAN: I guess a little bit of everything

that needs to be done, no one particular function. She is not a clerk-typist or

anything like that. She does -

MR. HUNTER: Is someone directly responsible for

her...?

MR. McLEAN: Me.

MR. HUNTER: She works under you?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. She looks after me - is

supposed to.

MR. HUNTER: Pardon?

MR. McLEAN: She is supposed to look after me.

MR. HUNTER: So there was only that one position

in (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that is it.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Ms Osborne.

MS S. OSBORNE: Motor vehicle inspections - to

get licenses, motor vehicles still are not inspected, are they?

MR. McLEAN: Are you talking about the mandatory

inspections?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Not for vehicles that are less than

- how old?

If you resell a vehicle after it is seven or eight

years old, you have to have it inspected. There is no mandatory inspection.

MS S. OSBORNE: No mandatory inspection no

matter how old it is, is there?

MR. McLEAN: Only if you resell it; if you

resell it or transfer the license over.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. HUNTER: Are you anticipating any change in

that legislation?

MR. McLEAN: Not that I am familiar with right

away. We had a study done in 1997 where we determined that we would drop the

mandatory inspections because it was more of a rip-off than anything else. It

was not doing the job that it was supposed to do.

MR. HUNTER: Sheila brought it up, and I am

after getting several calls from small garage owners in my district -

MR. McLEAN: Yes, we get them all the time.

MR. HUNTER: - complaining about people coming

in with ball joints falling off, and tow truck operators going out and picking

up vehicles with tie-rod ends off, ball joints off, and stuff like that. Is it

time now to have another look at that again?

MR. McLEAN: We are constantly reviewing it. We

have our inspectors out on the highway as well. They go out and do spot checks

on the highway and at times they require vehicles to be taken off the road

because of problems with brakes or whatever. That is the process we are using

now instead of the mandatory inspections. According to the enforcement agencies,

these seem to working fairly well.

MS S. OSBORNE: Do you have any data as to how

many vehicles they have detected? How many have been picked up and determined

they were not fit to be on the road?

MR. McLEAN: When any inspection is done there

are always stats recorded of the numbers. Even if they are not taken off the

road, if there are any deficiencies that are minor and require some repair or if

they are major and need to be hauled off the road, all of these are recorded. We

correlate that with the enforcement agencies as well, because they also do

inspections.

MS S. OSBORNE: If somebody was found to be in

violation, would that be reported to the RNC or the RCMP, the license plates, so

that car would be monitored until it was in fact made road safe?

MR. McLEAN: Well, if it is a situation where

they are hauled off the road, they would not be allowed back on the road until

that work is done.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Are you getting any fallout - not in terms of

telephone calls from garage owners because of loss of revenue, but are you

getting any fallout other than that - in terms of more accidents or anything

because cars are not roadworthy?

MR. McLEAN: No, there is no indication that

accidents have increased because of mechanical failure. Over the last number of

years, the increase in automobile accidents has been caused by driver faults.

MS S. OSBORNE: Drivers who are not roadworthy.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, driver faults or alcohol.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: That is the biggest situation.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, thank you.

MR. McLEAN: That is why we brought in the

graduated driver's license. As you understand from the House, I have been up and

down on that.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Hunter.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, have you planned on

increasing or buying new vehicles for the department this year, or replacing

existing vehicles? Are there any plans to add to the fleet of vehicles in your

department?

MR. McLEAN: Generally what we do with vehicle

replacement is, if there are requirements to replace vehicles, we will find

savings at the end of the year from our existing budget. If there are those

savings there, we will be able to purchase new vehicles.

At certain intervals you have to replace them

because, for our enforcement officers to be out there, you have to have

roadworthy vehicles for them. When you get up into vehicles that are of age, we

really need to get new vehicles in place. That is how we replace them.

MR. HUNTER: Are there plans in this budget to

buy new vehicles?

MR. McLEAN: No, we will not know until the end

of the year really. If we have some savings in certain areas we can replace a

few vehicles, but we do not have any set budget for replacing X number of

vehicles. We try to do so many a year because we have to keep the fleet up. We

inspect vehicles so we cannot get out on the road with vehicles that are not

roadworthy.

MR. HUNTER: I was wondering if you were

increasing your fleet this year because increased -

MR. McLEAN: No, it is pretty standard.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter.

Mr. Sweeney, you had four words to say?

MR. SWEENEY: Just a couple, yes.

Mr. Minister, I would just like to say that your

department has done something over the past number of years even though you are

in your infancy stages of developing a great department. You have put back two

words which the public thought for years could not belong - government and

services. You have done that and I must say, from my travels around the

Province, the offices that you have opened... More in particular, I guess, I

bring you some positive feedback regarding the office in my area, in my own

district. That is the one in Harbour Grace. The comments I am hearing are

unbelievable and it certainly speaks volumes for the work that you and your

executive and staff have done. I can only say, keep up the good work and it will

work out I am sure. You will work out the bugs and the glitches that comes with

any new department.

Thanks very much.

MR. McLEAN: It is interesting that the one

George mentioned used to be called the Pirates Cave in Harbour Grace. First when

we - just a little anecdote - when we awarded the tender to this guy who owned

this place, a lot of people came in to us and said: What are you doing? You are

going to take that dumpy place - because some people hated it and some people, I

guess, used it - it was club, and they figured we were moving into a dive. I

think if you go out there now, it is a lot different. We took it and turned it

around into a place that was respectable in the community, rather than a dump.

MR. SWEENEY: It has come a long way.

MR. McLEAN: I appreciate you comments, George.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, will you consider

opening another service centre in Springdale?

MR. McLEAN: We will work through the system and

the process. Actually, we had a meeting with Port aux Basques this morning -

Mayor Sheaves - about (inaudible) services.

MS S. OSBORNE: If you find a dump out there and

you can turn it into (inaudible).

CHAIR: Alright. Before I -

MR. SWEENEY: I would just like to say

(inaudible) that if we had an official opening out there some day, it would be

great.

MR. McLEAN: I think we should do it sooner

rather than later.

MR. SWEENEY: I think the public is waiting for

MR. McLEAN: I am sure they are.

MR. SWEENEY: Right now it is like a closely

guarded secret. I think we need something, a little bit of hoopla, a few

balloons hung on the sign or whatever, just to let everybody know it is there.

CHAIR: Alright, Mr. Sweeney, I know you need

the plug out there, right?

Before I ask the Clerk to call the heads, did

everybody have an opportunity to look at the minutes from the last meeting? If

so, can we have somebody move those minutes?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through to 4.1.05.,

carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and

Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: On behalf of the Committee, Mr.

Minister, I want to thank you and your staff for appearing. We are quite pleased

with the answers you gave. We have had a thorough review, I think, of your

department. We certainly look forward to seeing you again in the House to finish

the debate, and we look forward to seeing you next year when we review your

Estimates again.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank my staff for coming forward. I would say to

anybody here that we are wide and free and open, any time you want to ask

questions or find out anything.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Could somebody move adjournment?

On motion, Committee adjourned .