Manitoba Hansard — 10 May 2023 (Sitting 52, 42nd Legislature, 5th Session)

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Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXVII No. 52 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 10, 2023 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon. Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon.

Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott, Hon. Assiniboia PC KHAN, Obby, Hon. Fort Whyte PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLEIN, Kevin E., Hon. Kirkfield Park PC LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice, Hon.

Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg, Hon. Riding Mountain PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle, Hon. Turtle Mountain PC REDHEAD, Eric Thompson NDP REYES, Jon, Hon. Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew, Hon. Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James, Hon. Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC Vacant Morden-Winkler

2175 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 10, 2023 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperi ty of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen.

We acknowledge we are gathered on Treaty 1 territory and that Manitoba is located on the treaty territories and ancestral lands of the Anishinaabeg, Anishininewuk, Dakota Oyate, Denesuline and Nehethowuk nations. We ac knowledge Manitoba is located on the Homeland of the Red River Métis. We acknowledge northern Manitoba includes lands that were and are the ancestral lands of the Inuit. We respect the spirit and intent of treaties and treaty making and remain committed to working in partnership with First Nations, Inuit and Métis people in the spirit of truth, reconciliation and collaboration.

Good afternoon, everybody. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 242–The Police and Peace Officers' Memorial Day Act (Commemoration of Days, Weeks and Months Act Amended) Mr. Len Isleifson (Brandon East): I move, seconded by the member from Dauphin, that Bill 242, The Police and Peace Officers' Memorial Day Act (Commemoration of Days, Weeks and Months Act Amended), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr.

Isleifson: I just want to start–[interjection] I think it's important that in our province, as in every other province in Canada, we recognize the sacrifices that protection officers and police officers do in the line of duty every day and we recog nize–at the end of September of every year, we take the op portunity to recognize those who have sacrificed their lives in this fashion. We want to align, and this bill helps us align, with the federal gov ernment with moving it from the last day in September to the last Sunday in September so that it is predictable every year.

Madam Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? [Agreed] Bill 233–The Chartered Professionals in Human Resources Act Mr. Shannon Martin (McPhillips): I move, seconded by the member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer), that Bill 233, The Chartered Professionals in Human Resources Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Martin: This bill is very straightfor ward. It is a change to the designation of a 'chartle'–chartered pro- fessionals, allowing them to have that human resources designation. I look forward to all support in this House.

Madam Speaker: Is it the pleasure of th e House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] COMMITTEE REPORTS Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs Sixth Report Mr. Dennis Smook (Chairperson): I wish to present the sixth report of the Standing Com mittee on Legislative Affairs. Clerk (Ms. Patricia Chaychuk): Your standing com- mittee– Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs presents the following as its Sixth Report. Meetings Your Committee met on May 9, 2023, at 6:00 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building.

Matters under Consideration • Bill (No. 23) – The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability Amendm ent Act / Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les personnes vulnérables ayant une déficience mentale

2176 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 • Bill (No. 31) – The Animal Care Amendment Act (2) / Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur le soin des animaux • Bill (No. 32) –

An Act respecting Child and Family Services (Indigenous Jurisdiction and Related Amendments) / Loi concernant les services à l'enfant et à la famille (champ de compétence autochtone et modifications connexes) Committee Membership • Mr. BRAR • MLA FONTAINE • Hon. Mr. JOHNSON (Interlake-Gimli) • Mr. SMOOK • Hon. Ms. SQUIRES • Mr. WISHART Your Committee elected Mr. SMOOK as the Chairperson. Your Committee elected Mr. WISHART as the Vice - Chairperson. Non-Committee Members Speaking on Record • Hon. Mr. GERRARD Public Presentations Your Committee heard the following seven presentations on Bill (No. 23) – The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability Amendment Act / Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les personnes vulnérables ayant une déficience mentale: Jessica Croy, People First of Manitoba Tomas Ponzilius, Private citizen Sharon McIlraith, Private citizen Twila Richards, Private citizen Dale Kendel, Private citizen Debra Roach, Family Advocacy Network of Manitoba Amy Shawcross, Community Living Manitoba Your Committee heard the following presentation on Bill (No. 31) – The Animal Care Amendment Act (2) / Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur le soin des animaux: Brenna Mahoney and Cameron Dahl, Keystone Agricultural Producers and Manitoba Pork Council Your Committee heard the following three presentations on Bill (No. 32) –

An Act respecting Child and Family Services (Indigenous Jurisdiction and Related Amendments) / Loi concernant les services à l'enfant et à la famille (champ de compétence autochtone et modifications connexes): Doreen Moellenbeck-Dushnitsky, Dakota Ojibway Child and Family Services Trudy Lavallee, Animikii Ozoson Child and Family Services Inc. Sherry Gott, Manitoba Advocate for Children and Youth Written Submissions Your Committee recei ved the following written submission on Bill (No. 23) – The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability Amendment Act / Loi modifia nt la

Loi sur les personnes vulnérables ayant une déficience mentale: Suzanne Swanton, Continuity Care Inc. Your Committee received the following written submission on Bill (No. 31) – The Animal Care Amendment Act (2) / Loi n o 2 modifiant la

Loi sur le soin des animaux: Kaitlyn Mitchell, Animal Justice Your Committee received the following two written submissions on Bill (No. 32) –

An Act respecting Child and Family Services (Indigenous Jurisdiction and Related Amendments) / Loi concernant les services à l'enfant et à la famille (champ de compétence autochtone et modifications connexes): Joshua Nepinak, Private citizen Bert Crocker, Private citizen Bills Considered and Reported • Bill (No. 23) – The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability Amendment Act / Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les personnes vulnérables ayant une déficience mentale Your Committee agreed to report this Bill without amendment. • Bill (No. 31) – The Animal Care Amendment Act (2) / Loi n o 2 modifiant la

Loi sur le soin des animaux Your Committee agreed to report this Bill without amendment. • Bill (No . 32) –

An Act respecting Child and Family Services (Indigenous Jurisdiction and Related Amendments) / Loi concernant les services à l'enfant et à la famille (champ de compétence autochtone et modifications connexes) Your Committee agreed to report this Bill without amendment.

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2177 Mr. Smook: I move, seconded by the honour able member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Wishart), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Madam Speaker: Tabling of reports? Minis terial statements? Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: And I'm going to take this oppor - tunity to introduce the students we have in the gallery, because they won't be up there for very long.

We have seated in the public gallery, from Woodlawn School, 48 grade 3 to 4 students under the direction of Simmy Gandhi, and this group is located in the constituency of the honour able member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen). Oh behalf of all of us here, we welcome you to the Manitoba Legislature. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Summer Activities in Brandon Mr. Len Isleifson (Brandon East): As summer approaches, many Manitobans will be making vacation plans that may include a scenic drive through Riding Mountain National Park or maybe even heading south to International Peace Garden for the day.

Some families may venture north for some class–trophy pike fishing at Sickle Lake or maybe even make plans to spend a week or weekend at one of the beaches at one of our many finest provincial parks. Whatever Manitobans plan to do this summer, I would highly recommend they include a visit to Manitoba's second largest city, Brandon. Thanks to the hard work and dedicati on of Executive Director Jenn Watson and her regional co-ordinators, Sara Girard and Pam Reiss, at Brandon First, there are plenty of things to do in Brandon this summer.

To warm us up, on May 27th we will see the hosting of the Apple & Pine Spring Marke t at the Keystone Centre, followed by the Manitoba Summer Fair at the Keystone from June 7th to the 11th.

Also, June 8th to 10th we'll see the Manitoba High School Athletics Association track and field provincials at the Brandon Community Sportsplex; July 19th to 23rd will be the world –pardon me–the World Clydesdale Show at the Keystone Centre; the Salamander Summer Music Festival at Rideau Park takes place from July 9th to the 23rd; and August 9 to 13th, we'll see Softball Canada's U15 Girl's national cham pion- ships at Ashley Neufeld Softball Complex. Also, August the 11 to 13th we'll see the Western Canadian Powerlifting Cham pionships at the Healthy Living Centre at Brandon University.

Brandon First is a not-for-profit destination mar- keting organi zation that consists of 12 board mem - bers, a three -person staff and a membership base of more 40 local business stakeholders. They are com - mitted to working as a cohesive group to promote Brandon, Manitoba, as a host city for events, and have a very impressive success record. Madam Speaker, with a goal to drive economic development in Brandon through multi -day event tourism and successful event hosting, I can honestly say, once you have attended an event, Brandon Brings You Back. * (13:40) Thank you. Reetu Chahal Mr.

Mintu Sandhu (The Maples): Today, I would like to recognize truly amazing local athletes. Reetu Chahal is a Winnipeg athlete who was born with Down syndrome and has never given up on her dreams of being a champion. Reetu has participated in Special Olympics Manitoba since 2000 and has committed to making her mark in sports since she completed her grade 12 certificate from Maples Collegiate in 2009. She has participated in various sports, such as weightlifting, swimming, five -pin bowling, track and field and basketball.

Six Manitobans will represent Team Canada in the world Special Olympic games, and Reetu has been selected to compete in powerlifting in Berlin June–in June. Reetu will travel with Team Canada from June 10th to 27th to participate in the games. And she has also been selected to participate in five-pin bowling for the February 2024 Special Olympics Canada Winter Games in Calgary, Alberta. She trains three times a week with Sport Manitoba, and, when she is not training, she volunteers three times a week with ImagineAbility program, helping different businesses throughout Winnipeg.

Special Olympics Manitoba has played a monumental role for individuals with intellectual disabilities, providing opportunities to feel proud of their hard work, amazing talents and accomplishments.

2178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 Reetu's entire family are proud of her and her–are thanking for the Special Olympics Manitoba and all her coaches, who are working hard to achieve her goals. I would all–like my colleagues to please join me in–for congratulating Reetu for all her hard work, accomplishments so far, as well as wishing her the best in Berlin next month. Reetu is joined by her parents, Mewa and Jaswinder Chahal. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ridhwanlai Badmos Hon.

Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I rise in the House today to recognize Ridhwanlai Badmos, a grade 12 student at Windsor Park Collegiate. Ridhwanlai has done outstanding work to con- tribute to his community. He founded the non- profit Wake-Up Mental Health and created a diversity, equity and inclusion council at his school. Ridhwanlai's contributions have not gone unnoticed. Today, it is my pleasure to share the awards he has received in recognition of his efforts. Ridhwanlai is one of 36 scholars for the Loran Award, which recognizes students' integrity, courage and grit.

He is one of the current finalists of the Terry Fox Humanitarian Award for his volunteering and humanitarian efforts and he is one of 50 finalists for the TD community leadership award. Ridhwanlai was the successful recipient of the University of British Columbia Beyond Tomorrow award for exceptional Black Canadian scholars. He won the international optimist essay contest and has accepted the University of Toronto's National Book Award. Most recently, he accepted the Mark Dickof Memorial Scholarship for his work in championing mental health and well-being and making a difference in his community.

Madam Speaker, it's my pleasure to recognize the efforts and accomplishments of this outstanding student. Scholarships and awards are impressive achieve- ments, and are often a reflection of an individual's commitment, hard work and dedication to their community. Sitting in the gallery today is Ridhwanlai, his family members and Ms. Jennifer St evenson from Windsor Park Collegiate. Madam Speaker, I ask all members in the Chamber to please join me to congratulate Ridhwanlai and thanking his family and teachers for their uplifting support. Congratulations. Steven Bignell Ms.

Amanda Lathlin (The Pas-Kameesak): Today, I would like to recognize the outstanding success of Steven Bignell–who is watching live right now with his family–a self-taught artist and filmmaker who has made a name for himself in the Canadian film industry. Born and rais ed in Opaskwayak Cree Nation, Steven's passion for the arts has driven him to create exceptional artwork and captivating films which have been showcased across Canada and the United States. After pursuing a short acting career in 2005, Steven founded A Fl at Broke Production in 2011, a film company based in his home community of OCN.

He started small, creating short segments, before expanding into short films and eventually full -length feature films. His latest film, The Tomahawk, which premiered on nationa l film board day, has received critical acclaim. The Tomahawk tells of a story of a Cree soldier who meets a young, inexperienced German youth soldier in the closing months of World War II. The film depicts the soldier's journey to teach the German youth about his people and culture. Steven spent countless hours writing and rewriting the script as well as creating storyboards.

The film was supported by the National Screen Institute, Reel Canada and the Directors Guild of Canada. Steven's dedication to his craft is evident in his work, and his passion for showcasing–'showcayshing' local talent is admirable. He also–written several more scripts and that he hopes to bring to life in future projects, with the goal of putting Opaskwayak Cree Nation and the town of The Pas on the map for its local talent and crew. I would like to commend Steven for his hard work and creativity.

His success as a filmmaker and artist is truly inspiring, and it is a testament for his dedication and perseverance. Steven's achievements are not only bought recognition to himself but also have shed light on the Indigenous community's talent in the arts. I would like my colleagues to please join me in congratulating Steve on his success. Ekosi.

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2179 Green Team Program Mr. Dennis Smook (La Vérendrye): Today may be the last time I rise in this House to do a private mem- ber's statement. I have decided to speak about the importance of youth employment. I am proud to be part of a government that under- stands this and is willing to do something about it. Madam Speaker, I am talking about The Green Team program and our PC gov ernment's funding of community projects across our entire province.

I am pleased to say that La Vérendrye will receive $235,694.30 from the total of $9.6 million to support The Green Team program this year. Madam Speaker, these funds will be used to support so many projects in our local communities. Not only are these projects important to com munities, they are important to our youth. Over the years, I have seen the importance of our youth finding employment, especially those that this may be their first job. These jobs not only give a financial benefit, they provide life skills.

Madam Speaker, in my previous life before politics, I was a business owner, and every ye ar I employed between four and six high school students. After being employed for a few months, you could see the change in many of them as they gained self -confidence and people skills. These are just some of the reasons I feel it is important for our youth to find employment, and The Green Team program is doing just that. I want to thank our PC government for providing these job opportunities. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, seeking leave to revert back to tabling of reports to table the Estimates order. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to 'resert' back to tabling–revert back to tabling? [Agreed] Leave has been granted. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Pleased to table the Estimates order, which is permanent and signed by myself and the acting Opposition House Leader, the member for Keewatinook (Mr. Bushie).

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: And at this time, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today two special guests known to many of us. * (13:50) We have Laura Tomaka, director of Council of State Gov ernments, and Ilene Grossman, assis tant director of Council of State Governments. And on behalf of all of us here, we would like to like to welcome you to the Manitoba Legislature, and wish MLC the best in the future. ORAL QUESTIONS Health-Care System Governance Structure Concerns Mr.

Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Doctors are speaking out. Of course, we've already heard from Dr. Dan Roberts, and now, other physicians are joining to the chorus of criticisms of the PC health - care cuts. Now, one physician has said that the gov ernance structure of Shared Health, and I quote here, is completely a mess. End quote. And the diagnostic and surgical task force has added another layer of bureaucracy. He added, and I quote here, it's an absolute mess. You have to get rid of some layers and you have to fix the governance. Who reports to whom? End quote.

Does the Premier acknowl edge that health care under her watch is an absolute mess? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): I want to thank all of those that sit on the surgical and diagnostic task force. They are making sig nificant headway at the backlogs that were created as a result of the global pandemic, and we want to thank them for the incred - ible work that they do day in, day out, to ensure that Manitobans get the surgical and diagnostic procedures that they need. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Kinew: I just want to correct the record and point out that it was PC health-care cuts that helped to create the surgical and diagnos tic backlog. Everyone in Manitoba knows that this is one of the only juris dic- tions in the world–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order.

2180 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 Mr. Kinew: –that was cutting ICU beds as we approached the pandemic, one of many reasons doctors are speaking out. PCs have created a bureaucracy that even they themselves cannot manage. Here's what front -line doctors are saying, and I quote here: If you need funding for something, do you go to the task force? Do you go to Shared Health? Do you go to your own health region to pay for the task force? Do you go to your own region or go to Shared Health? End quote.

No one knows, least of all this PC Cabinet, and that's why health care has deteriorated so much under their watch. Does the Premier acknowledge that her gov ern- ment has created such a profound dysfunction in our very important health-care system? Mrs. Stefanson: Manitobans know, and the Leader of the Op position should know, that we are making record investments in health care in the province of Manitoba, almost $8 billion in health care this year alone, a $668- million increase over last year, a 22 per cent increase since we took office. That's more, not lest–less, Madam Speaker.

That's significant improvements in a reas like the Leader of the Opposition mentioned, ICU capacity. In fact, I was just at the Grace Hospital not so long ago making an announcement there with those doctors and nurses and everyone at the Grace Hospital, about an expansion–$30 million that we are investing in an expansion of the ICU at Grace Hospital. That is more, not less. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: For all the an nouncements the Premier likes to attend, there are fewer health -care services available to Manitobans.

There are fewer emergency rooms. There are fewer CancerCare clinics. And there are even fewer drugs covered by the provincial formulary. Those are the cuts that this PC government made. And so how is it that Manitobans are paying more and getting less when it comes to health care? It's because of the bureaucratic mess that this Premier and Brian Pallister installed at the heart of our health-care system. The dysfunction of that is one of the chief causes of burnout at the front lines, and that's why physicians are speaking out.

Why has the Premier created so much bureau - cracy in health care at the same time that she's cut front-line health-care services? Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition talks about doctors speaking out. I'm going to talk about doctors that are stepping up to help Manitobans, those who are members of our surgical and diagnostic task force. And I want to thank them for the incredible work that they do. People like Dr. Peter MacDonald, who is the chair of the diag nostic and surgical task force; Dr. Luis Oppenheimer; Dr. David Hochman; Dr. David Matear. There's others: Dr.

Chris Christodouda – doulou [phonetic], Madam Speaker; Dr. Ed Buchel. These are all Manitobans–and there's more, Madam Speaker–these are all Manitoba doctors who have stepped up to help find solutions to the challenges that we face not just here in Manitoba, but these are challenges that are faced right across the country. These individuals are focused on finding solutions to these challenges, and I want to thank them for taking the time out of their

schedule to do what's important to all Manitobans. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Education Property Tax Credit Out-of-Province Corporate Rebates Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, earlier this week, the company that owns Superstore raised its dividend. Now, the reason that they did that is because they made a profit of $426 million in just the first three months of the year. They did that by raising grocery prices on the hard-working people of Manitoba.

At the same time, we uncovered that this govern- ment is sending that same company and its billionaire owner a cheque for $327,000. If that weren't enough, yesterday the Premier went on to claim that if we didn't send them this addi- tional $327,000, that somehow this wildly profitable corporation would, quote, go out of busi ness. End quote. Does the Premier actually believe that Loblaws will go out of business if we don't send them another $327,000 cheque?

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2181 Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): Why the Leader of the Opposi tion and members opposite are busy picking fights with busi nesses in Manitoba, Madam Speaker, we'll continue to support those businesses in Manitoba to ensure that we're creating an environment in Manitoba–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: –that's conducive for them to grow their businesses here in Manitoba. The Leader of the Opposition and members oppo- site don't seem to understand that if busi nesses grow in Manitoba, it means more reve nues to the gov ern- ment.

More reve nues to the gov ernment is how we pay for better health care, education, justice, social services, Madam Speaker. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: I know members opposite don't like that and they don't understand how to grow our economy. They don't understand that it's a good thing to support businesses in Manitoba, Madam Speaker. Their only solution is to jack up taxes on the backs of hard-working–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: –Manitobans. We think that's wrong.

Madam Speaker: I'm looking for a quieter day today so that everybody that is watching this can hear what is being said. And I'm going to ask for everybody's co-operation, please. The honourable member–the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: Madam Speaker, the average Manitoban hears that first question that I asked and they're out - raged that billionaires are getting hundreds of thousands of dollars that should rightfully be going to public schools. But here's how out of touch the PCs are.

They heard that first question and they said, what? [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: Loblaws is raising its dividend? On that side of the House, they support the billionaires. On this side of the House, we support public schools. The money for these cheques is being taken from revenue that is 'supporsed'–that is supposed to support education in Manitoba. Will the Premier stop her practice of sending cheques to billionaires and instead invest in local public schools? Mrs.

Stefanson: If the Leader of the Opposition and members opposite truly cared about funding educa- tion, Madam Speaker, then they would've voted in favour of our budget that provides more than $100-million increase to the edu cation budget alone this year. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: That's a 6.1 per cent record increase in investments in our schools right across this province, Madam Speaker. Every single school division got a raise. That's part of that $100 million. * (14:00) And the Leader of the Opposition and every single member opposite voted against that, Madam Speaker.

We will take no lessons from the members opposite. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: Ask any parent or educator in the province, and they'll tell you that the PCs have been underfunding education in this province for years. They'd also tell you that that $327,000 that the Stefanson government is sending to the company that owns Superstore, well, that could go a really long way in our local schools. That could pay for several EAs to help children with exceptional needs. That could pay for extra - curricular programs to help young people flourish.

That could help address some of the infrastructure needs that have only grown under the PCs. [interjection] I really wish that PC MLAs would heckle this much at the school cuts rather than when we fight for public education. Seeing as how the Manitoba NDP is the only team that will stand up for public schools in this province, I will ask once again: Is this Premier going to cancel the cheques for billionaires and instead invest in public education? Mrs.

Stefanson: I always appreciate a question on all the invest ments that we're making in our education system in Manitoba, and it's time to put some facts on the record, Madam Speaker.

2182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 A 23 per cent increase in edu cation funding – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: –since we came to office, Madam Speaker; over $100- million increase in investment over last year alone. Every single school division right across this province of ours got an increase to their funding. And when the Leader of the Opposi tion claims that he cares about edu cation funding, Madam Speaker, he had the opportunity at that time to vote in favour of increased funding to edu cation. And what did he do? He voted against it.

We will take no lessons from the members opposite. Education Property Tax Credit Out-of-Province Corporate Rebates Mr. Mark Wasyliw (Fort G arry): On this side – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Wasyliw: –of the House, we don't think billion - aires need gov ernment handouts. Yet that's – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Wasyliw: –exactly what the–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Wasyliw: –Premier and her entire PC–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Order. If I can't hear, that means Hansard can't hear, that means our clerks can't hear and that means the public can't hear.

So, I'm going to ask for everybody's co-operation please. And we have some guests from the United States that I think are very interested in our system of gov- ernment, and I think they're looking to see more civility and respect for democracy on this floor. Mr. Wasyliw: Okay. Madam Speaker, they gave Galen Weston, the president of Superstore and No Frills, a cheque for over $327,000. Manitobans know that Galen Weston has been making their lives harder by jacking up grocery prices. Yet this Premier thinks he needs even more money.

Will the Premier simply admit that this is wrong and commit to stop cutting cheques for billionaires? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Finance): Here we go again, the opposi tion members picking fights with Manitoba businesses. Clearly, under our gov ernment and the direction of the Premier , we've been focusing on creating an atmosphere for economic development, an opportun- ity for Manitoba busi ness to grow. And when Manitoba busi nesses grow, more Manitobans are working. In fact, Madam Speaker, we had one of the fastest growing economies at 3.6 per cent last year.

We've got more Manitobans working than ever before. And as a result of that, we've been able to make historic investment in public education –$100 million plus a 6.1 per cent increase in this year's b udget alone. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. The honourable member for Fort Garry, on a supplementary question. Mr. Wasyliw: This Premier made a choice. She chose to stand with out-of-province billionaires. On this side of the House, we also made a choice. We will always stand with Manitobans.

Yesterday, the Premier claimed that without her government's $327,000 cheque, No Frills and Superstore could go out of busi ness. It's clear the Premier's not living in reality. No Frills and Superstore made $418 million in profits in the first quarter this year by hiking Manitobans' grocery costs. They don't need government handouts. Maybe this Premier doesn't remember, because she forgot the $31 million to disclose in her own property sales. Will this Premier do the right thing and stop cutting cheques for billionaires? Mr.

Cullen: Well, Madam Speaker, through our edu- cation property rebates, we're giving historic money back to Manitobans –their hard -earned income tax money. What–under the NDP –and this would be the member for Fort Garry–should pay attention was that when he was over at the Winnipeg School Division– we know their plan. Under his watch at the Winnipeg School Division, local property taxes went up almost 37 per cent. We know what the NDP's mandate is. They're the tax-and-spend NDP. That will never change.

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2183 Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Garry, on a final supplementary. Mr. Wasyliw: I hate to break it to this gov ernment, but Galen Weston is not a Manitoban. Now, Manitobans are struggling with their grocery bills, and this Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) is–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Wasyliw: –cutting cheques for billionaires. That includes the $327,000 to Galen Weston, the same person who's making groceri es more expensive for Manitobans. That's $327,000 that should be invested in our schools. On this side of the House, we know that's wrong.

Will the Premier do the right thing and stop giving cheques to billionaires? Mr. Cullen: Well, this particular company employs 6,000 Manitobans. We are going to support 6,000 Manitoban workers here in Manitoba. Now, we know the NDP have got a record of taxing and spending. The member from Fort Garry – 37 per cent increase on the back of Manitoba taxpayers. Now we've got the Leader of the Opposition saying, well, some commercial properties should pay, maybe some shouldn't. What kind of rules is he making up? Is he making policy on the fly? Is he going to pick and choose winners and losers?

What is his agenda, besides taxing them? Agency Nursing Costs Public-Private Services MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): Madam Speaker, when it comes to health care, the PCs just can't do anything right. They refuse to listen to front- line health-care workers, they let vacancy rates reach dangerous levels and they continue to cut health-care services that Manitobans rely on. Yet, one thing they seem to have no problem doing is sending millions of dollars to private, for - profit providers instead of investing in our public health-care system.

New documents from August 2022 to March of 2023 show the PCs spent $5.24 million on agency nurses in the Southern Health region alone. I'll table those documents now. Can the Premier explain why she's sending millions of dollars to p rivate, for -profit agencies, instead of investing in nurses in our public health-care system? * (14:10) Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I'd like to start by saying happy nurses week to all the nurses here in Manitoba. Thank you for your dedication and your commitment to providing care to Manitobans.

Madam Speaker, I was pleased to announce yester- day that 55 nurses have been hired into the Manitoba government's prov incial nursing pool since its inception late last year. These nurses have worked approximately 900 shifts in the first three months of this year, in Northern Health Region, Interlake and Prairie Mountain. And two thirds of those nurses have returned to the public system from agency nursing. Welcome back and happy nurses week. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, on a supplementary question.

MLA Asagwara: Instead of investing in our public health-care system, the PCs are still spending even more money–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. MLA Asagwara: –on private, for-profit companies. In only seven months, they spent $5.24 million on agency nurses in the southern region alone. That's millions of dollars that could've been invested in filling vacancies in our public health -care system, vacancies that the PCs helped create through their health-care cuts. The PCs should put the care and the outcomes of Manitobans first, not the bottom line of private, for - profit companies.

Can the Premier tell this House why she's spend- ing millions of dollars for private co mpanies instead of investing in nurses in our public health- care system? Ms. Gordon: The health human resource action plan is showing signi ficant im provements in the health system. Nearly 900 new hires, Madam Speaker; 259 of those new hires are nurses.

And through the incentives that these nurses shared with myself when I went right to the front line to speak with them, we invested $200 million into incentives, and I can report that 11,600 weekend super-premiums have been paid; 8,747 wellness bonuses, Madam Speaker; 11,562 licensure reimbursements.

2184 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 We are investing in the health system. We are investing in nurses. Again, happy nurses week. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, on a final supplementary. MLA Asagwara: Madam Speaker, while the PCs continue to spend and send millions of dollars to private, for-profit companies, they also continue to cut our health- care system. Dozens of beds have been closed, vacancy rates have reached dangerous levels, and nurses are being mandated to work overtime just to ensure our system doesn't fall apart.

On this side of the House, we think that's wrong, Madam Speaker. The Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) should invest in strengthening our public health-care system instead of spending millions upon millions of dollars on private, for-profit agency companies. Will she make that commitment today? Ms. Gordon: May is a very exciting month for the University of Manitoba college of nursing: 120 students are making history this month as they enter the inaugural summer intake into the nursing program.

This was made possible through an agree ment with our government and the University of Manitoba, and I'm thrilled to be celebrating this milestone with all of you. Enjoy your summer program, and I wish you all the very best in the profession you have chosen and as you enter careers in the health system. Allied Health Professionals Collective Bargaining Negotiations Ms. Lisa Naylor (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, every- one in Manitoba knows that the PC government does not respect collective bargaining, and everyone knows that the PCs have made a mess of our–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Ms.

Naylor: –provincial health-care system. Last month, allied health -care workers voted 99 per cent in favour of a strike mandate, and it's easy to see why. Front-line workers like rural paramedics, pharmacy techs, MRI techs, radiation therapists and 190 other allied health profes sionals have had their wages frozen by this PC government for five years. We're in a cost of living crisis and the health-care workers who take care of us deserve so much better. Will the Premier give allied health workers a fair deal today? Hon.

James Teitsma (Minister of Consumer Protection and Government Services): You know, it seems kind of ironic to me that on this side of the House, the Progressive Conservative caucus has to explain the collecting –collective bargaining process to the members of the NDP. You would think that they would be more familiar with it. As the member should know, the Government of Manitoba is not the employer here; Shared Health is.

And certainly our hope is that Shared Health and the MAHCP and the other unions gather together at the bargaining table, that they work faithfully and dili - gently on negotiations, that they are able to come to a good collective agreement. That's what everybody wants. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, on a supplementary question. Ms. Naylor: Madam Speaker, 99 per cent of allied health-care workers voted in favour of a strike. If that doesn't scream failure on behalf of this government, I don't know what does.

Thousands of front-line health-care professionals feel disrespected by this gov ernment. This is an un- precedented mandate, and it's a clear sign that they've had enough of this government's incompetence. Ultimately, this PC gov ernment is respon sible. Ultimately, it would be excellent if the Minister of Labour could speak to a labour question and take some responsibility. When will the Pr emier stop disrespecting allied health-care workers and negotiate a fair deal? Mr. Teitsma: I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the NDP don't know what a good team looks like, but this is what a good team looks like.

Now, I'm disappointed. I continue to be disappointed, though not parti cularly surprised, that the members opposite continue to try to inflame this situation. It's irresponsible for them to do so. It does harken back to the Selinger days, where they thought that they were at the buffet –I mean the, you know, bargaining table. Sorry, not the buffet table. But that's what it felt like, I think, for the unions of the time. Active bargaining is continuing. Negotiations are under way, as they should be. That is what should be happening. I wis h the member would, instead of trying to inflame the

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2185 situation in this House, support that process and ensure that it can come to a good conclusion. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, on a final supplementary. Ms. Naylor: The PCs are always trying to change the channel from their failures in the health -care system, but it's their seven years of cuts that have thrown health care into chaos. A wage freeze for five years during our cost of living crisis, that's the policy of this PC government. Allied health-care workers have had enough.

They voted 99 per cent in favour of a strike mandate, and they deserve a fair deal. On this side of the House, we respect allied health-care workers, and we recog nize them as our constituents, our neighbours and our care providers. Why has the PC gov ernment failed to give them a fair deal? Mr. Teitsma: The way to get to a fair deal is by negotiation and potentially through arbitration or other tactics, other techniques. That's exactly what's going on. Now, what I will say to the members opposite is that I have been out knocking on doors, speaking with many PC supporters.

Every once in a while, I do run across an NDP supporter. I do. They appear to be just as dejected, deflated and divided as this NDP caucus. But one thing that does seem to unite them is they all wish that the Leader of the Op position would be the member for St. James (Mr. Sala). Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. [interjection] Order. Order. Order. Highway and Road Safety Debris Clearing and Road Signage Mr. Ian Bushie (Keewatinook): In September of last year, motorcyclist Denis L'Heureux was killed in a collision on Highway 311.

Denis was celebrating his 45th birthday on a charity ride alongside friends and family when the group hit a large patch of muddy debris left on the road, leading to the tragic accident. * (14:20) Denis's family and friends continued to call on the Province to increase highway safety by having better accountability and signage when there's debris left on the road. When we raised this issue last fall, the minister said that his gov ernment is studying a pilot project in Ontario regarding clearing mud and debris from highways.

Can the minister provide an update on the status of thi s, and how his gov ernment will implement lessons learned from this tragic accident? Hon. Doyle Piwniuk (Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure): It was a while since the member from Keewatinook even actually had got up and asked me a question, so it's great to have the opportunity to say that this last couple weeks I've actually met with the 'millersicle' group of Manitoba to talk about the safety when it comes to motorcycle riding in rural Manitoba, especially on our highways, especially when it comes to agriculture sector.

We've actually met with them, with Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Johnson), too, to talk about the op- portunities that we have to educate the public and work with MPI –and also work with Manitoba Agriculture when it comes to Keystone agriproducers. We're collaborating, Madam Speaker, and we'll continue the talks and we're also looking at what happens in Ontario. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Keewatinook, on a supplementary question. Municipal Maintenance Contracts Mr.

Bushie: We raised this issue last fall because Denis's death was tragic and his loved ones want to ensure no one else suffers the same fate. We owe it to Denis and others to make sure Manitoba's highways are safe for everyone. Advocates are calling for highways to be cleared quicker and for better signage, enforce ment and accountability to prevent further tragic accidents. The minister also said last fall that his gov ernment is looking into maintenance contracts with munici- palities. Can the minister provide an update on what progress has been made on these maintenance contracts? Mr.

Piwniuk: I just wanted to say to the people in the House here that when it came to this weekend, I had the oppor tunity to put–do a proclamation to safety month for motorcycles in Manitoba. And I had the op- portunity to talk to Denis's wife, Lise, who actually, tragically, lost her husband, and we had a great con- versation to talk about what we're going to do, what we're–our commitment is as government here.

2186 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 We are going to look into this matter; we're going to make sure that we col laborate with everybody out there when it comes to edu cation to the public. Because everybody should have looked out for motorcycle drivers, and this is why we're having safety month this month and the proclamation that we did this past weekend. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Keewatinook, on a final supplementary. Debris Clearing and Road Signage Mr. Bushie: Highway safety is something all Manitobans can get behind. One death on our roads is too many.

Safety advocates are calling for action to be taken; they want to see roads cleared quicker, better signage and stronger enforce ment to ensure if someone –to ensure someone is accountable for clearing debris. Can the minister tell us what concrete steps and what commitment his department will take to improve accountability and ensure that no other family has to grieve this kind of tragic loss? Mr. Piwniuk: Madam Speaker, you know, it's always safety when it comes to–is, lot of–No. 1 priority when it comes to Manitoba Transportation and Infrastructure.

When it comes to safety, especially motorcyclists, like, we're going to be working with RMs, local gov- ernments; we're going to be working with First Nation communities. We're going to be working with every - body to make sure that roads are safe. And I just want to make announce ment–I just want to table this –but we actually, now, reduced the speed limit at Brokenhead First Nation to 50 kilo- metres an hour. It took them 20 years to even look at it; we actually did it, Madam Speaker. Brandon School Board Meeting Government Position on Book Banning Mr. Dougald Lamont (St.

Boniface): At Monday's meeting of the Brandon school board, a former school trustee made a presentation demanding book banning. There's a video of it online, which went into graphic detail that was frankly disgusting, because of the terrible accusations it levels at educator s and librarians. That includes describing being 2SLGBTQ as an ideology. It's not. It's not catching; you don't get con- verted to being 2SLGBTQ by reading a book, and you can't be converted away from it. And let's be clear: I'm a father.

I want my childre n to be safe, and that includes being safe from extremists who want to take away our freedom of choice and freedom to read. There's been silence from this government so far on these attempts to ban books. Will the PCs take a stand against this US style of extremism and censorship? Hon. Sarah Guillemard (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): We understand that this is a presentation that was given at a school board, and school boards are set up and they have elected officials with trustees who are elected by the public.

And it is a process that has autonomy to look at these issues as they arise, and parents can raise various concerns. Our government supports an inclusive and sup- portive environment for all students to learn. We trust that the trustees also are looking at the best interests of children. This is a matter that right now is being looked at at Brandon School Division and we will follow closely the outcomes of those discussions. Madam Speaker: The honour able member for St. Boniface, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Lamont: If these folks are worried about what's in a public library, they sure are in for a surprise if they ever find out about the Internet, because let's be clear: in order to protect children from abuse, there's evidence that access to com prehensive, scientifically accurate sex ed material helps reduce the child –the risk of a child being sexually abused. Does the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) agree that book banning and attacks on educators need to be rejected? Hon. Obby Khan (Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage): As my colleague said, public libraries are for everyone.

They provide equal and equitable access to information and knowledge in accordance with the needs, rights, and freedoms of all residents. Under the Manitoba libraries act, as my colleague said, library boards are the author ity for the gov ern- ance and procedure for public libraries. They are responsible for the dev elopment and implementation of collection policies, includin g the review and con - sideration of challenged materials. I'm not sure how else we can say it to the member opposite, but this is governed under the Manitoba

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2187 Public Libraries Act. We are looking into it. We are working along with the boards as well. Thank you. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for River Heights, on a final supplementary. Management of Health-Care System Staffing and Equipment Planning Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, management and planning with respect to health care, parti cularly in human resources, are not the government's strong point. We're seeing shortages of health -care personnel; family physicians, nurses, specialist physicians, like in ophthalmology.

The current desperate shortage of psychologists is causing critical delays in youth care. A PET/CT scanner is sitting idle because advance staffing and other planning was not done. A neuro-ophthalmologist has been hired to come to Winnipeg, but the planning wasn't done to prepare for his arrival and he may now go elsewhere. Why has the gov ernment had such profound dysfunction in its human resource and equipment planning? Hon.

Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I'm pleased to rise in the Chamber today to share again and to congratulate all the individuals that have been working on the health human resource action plan task force that has led to nearly 900 new hires. Madam Speaker, 73 of those new hires are phys- icians, 259 are nurses, 82 allied health providers, 438 health-care aides, 32 physician and clinical assistants.

Madam Speaker, we recog nize that more work needs to be done, and our government has taken steps to ensure that the health system is staffed through our health human resource action plan and our historic investment of $200 million. Canada-Manitoba Housing Benefit Program for Low-Income Manitobans Mr. Bob Lagassé (Dawson Trail): Madam Speaker, our gov ernment has shown a commit ment to affordability. The Canada-Manitoba Housing Benefit is provi - ding $154.6 m illion in housing benefits to support over 17,000 low-income Manitobans.

The Minister of Families recently announced this as part of the National Housing Strategy. Can the minister provide further details on this funding and the benefit? Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Families): I'd like to thank my colleague for that very im portant question on housing. Our government agrees that youth coming out of the child and family services system, as well as those who are experiencing addictions, are at most risk for homelessness or becoming unsheltered or facing housing insecurity.

That is why our gov ernment has allocated, in addition to the $126 million homelessness strategy, we are allocating a $350 -a-month top-up benefit for shelters so that anyone who meets the criteria, either kids coming out of care or those at risk of homeless - ness, can receive this monthly benefit so that they can achieve housing security in the province of Manitoba. * (14:30) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order.

High-Speed Internet Accessibility Concerns MLA Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, in 2021, this PC gov ernment made a promise to 125,000 Manitobans, 350 com munities that they'd have them hooked up to high-speed Internet. I was recently in Tadoule Lake, Lac Brochet and Brochet, and we know that this government has broken that promise, specifically in the North, but throughout other communities as well. Lack of access to high - speed Internet in those communities makes it hard for their children to get ahead in educa tion. It makes it hard for their businesses to succeed. Can the Premier (Mrs.

Stefanson) tell us why she's failed to live up to her promise to bring high - speed Internet to those communities? Hon. James Teitsma (Minister of Consumer Protection and Government Services): Bringing high-speed Internet to rural Manitoba com munities, northern Manitoba com munities is, was, remains a priority for our government. That's why I believe we had a debate–was it last week or the week before in this House –where I tried desperately to read the names of every single one of the 409 com munities that have already been hooked

2188 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 up by our government. Yes, there are more to do, but the 409, I just couldn't get through it in the 10 minutes I had available to me. We are making sig nificant progress on this file. We are hooking up tens of thousands of homes to high-speed Internet under this agreement. Madam Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. PETITIONS Punjabi Bilingual Programs in Public Schools Mr. Nello Altomare (Transcona): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) According to the census 2021, Punjabi is the fourth most spoken language in Canada and there are 33,315 people in Manitoba whose native language is Punjabi.

(2) Thousands of Punjabi newcomers are coming to Manitoba as students and as immigrants, looking to call this province home. People of Punjabi origin contribute a great deal to the social and economic dev- elopment of Canada and Manitoba in fields such as education, science, health, business and politics.

(3) In coming to Manitoba, Punjabi newcomers make sacrifices, including distance from their cultural roots and language. Many Punjabi parents and families want their children to retain their language and keep a continued cultural appreciation. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Altomare:

(4) Manitoba has many good bilingual programs in public schools for children and teens available in other languages, including French, Ukrainian, Ojibwe, Filipino, Cree, Hebrew and Spanish. Punjabi bilingual programs for children and teens as well as Punjabi language instruction at a college and university level could similarly teach and maintain Punjabi language and culture.

(5) Punjabi bilingual instruction would help cross-cultural friendships, relationships and marriages and prepare our young people to be multilingual pro- fessionals. We therefore petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial government to take steps to implement Punjabi bilingual programs in public schools similar to existing bilingual programs and take steps to implement Punjabi langu age instruction in other levels of education in Manitoba. This petition, Madam Speaker, is signed by many Manitobans.

Madam Speaker: In accordance with our rule 133(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Diagnostic Testing Accessibility Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) Until recently, diag nostic tests, including those for blood and fluid samples, were available and accessible in most medical clinics.

(2) Dynacare blood test labs have consolidated their blood and fluid testing services by closing 25 of its labs.

(3) Provincial government has cut diag nostic testing as many –at many clinic sites, and residents now have to travel to different locations to get their testing done, even for a simple blood test or urine sample.

(4) Further, travel challenges for vulnerable and elderly residents of northeast Winnipeg may result in fewer tests being done or delays in testing, with the attendant effects of increased health -care costs and poorer individual patient outcomes.

(5) COVID-19 emergency rules resulted in long outdoor lineups, putting vulnerable residents at further risk of extreme–in extreme weather, be it hot or cold. Moreover, these long lineups have resulted in longer wait times and services and poorer service in general.

(6) Manitoba residents value the convenience and efficiency of the health -care system when they are able to give their samples at the time of the doctor visit. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to immedi - ately demand Dynacare increase their testing capacity so residents can better access these services locally and re-establish blood testing services at medical clinics in the local community. And this petition is signed by many, many Manitobans.

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2189 Drug Overdose Reporting Mrs. Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): I wish to present the following pe tition to the Manitoba Legislature. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Across the province, many Manitobans con- tinue to struggle with addictions, and the pandemic has led to even more deaths and worsened the ongoing public health crisis of opioid overdoses.

(2) Three hundred and seventy -two Manitobans died from an overdose in 2020, and that's over one a day and an 80 per seven–87 per cent in–higher than in 2019.

(3) Manitoba is expected to exceed over 400 over- dose deaths in 2021, but the data is not publicly available since the last public reporting of opioid deaths was published in 2019. The data for drug overdose deaths from 2020 and 2021 was compiled through media inquiries, and this needs to change.

(5) Access to timely dat a on the harms of drugs helps to inform both government and stakeholders on where to take action and target resources needed in various communities.

(6) Manitoba is the only province not provi ding regular, timely data to the federal gov ernment opioid information portal.

(7) Manitobans deserve a gov ernment that takes the growing drug crisis seriously and will report the data publicly in a timely matter to target actions and allow for accountability. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to enact Bill 217, The Fatality Inquiries Amend ment Act (Overdose Death Reporting), to require the Province to publish the number of drug overdose deaths, as well as the type of drug, on a gov ernment website in a timely fashion. And this has been signed by Marcel Catcheway, Rita Maud, Esther Catcheway and many other Manitobans.

Madam Speaker: Further petitions? Brandon University Funding Mr. Jamie Moses (St. Vital): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) Since taking office, the provincial government has cut operating funding to post-secondary institutions such as Brandon University, while simultaneously increasing tuition and student fees.

(2) Brandon University is the only university in rural Manitoba and serves as an important hub for Westman.

(3) Brandon University is the largest university outside of Winnipeg with over 2,200 full -time stu - dents and just under 1,000 part-time students.

(4) Despite the important role Brandon University plays in Manitoba, the provincial government is continuing to cut the university's funding in Budget 2023-24, as funding yet again fa ils to keep pace with inflation.

(5) Inadequate funding hurts students and the quality of education they receive as it may force Brandon University to raise tuition, cut programs and services, or both.

(6) Funding cuts also negatively impact Brandon University's faculty who are at risk of having their courses cut or being let go altogether.

(7) The provincial government has refused to explain why Brandon University's 2023-24 operating funding increase falls below inflation, and why it is lower than other universities in Manitoba. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to adequately fund Brandon University so that the institution can avoid making cuts and continue to serve students, faculty, Westman and the province of Manitoba as a whole. And this petition has been signed by many Manitobans. Madam Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, could you please r esolve the House into Committee of Supply. Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the House will consider Estimates this afternoon. This House will now resolve into Committee of Supply.

2190 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ROOM 254 CONSUMER PROTECTION AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Dennis Smook): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Consumer Protection and Government Services. Does the honour able minister have an opening statement? Hon. James Teitsma (Minister of Consumer Protection and Government Services): I do. It's a real pleasure for me to be here today to discuss Budget 2023, one of the best budgets ever as it pertains, in particular, to the Department of Consumer Protection and Government Services.

I will also note that I, as a minister, this is my first time through this Com mittee of Supply process, so I hope everyone will be reasonably patient with me and accommodating. And I–but I believe my opposition critic might be in the same boat, and so the two of us rookies together, we're going to get through this together. I should just say what my department is responsi- ble for. It's like quite a few different things.

I've got the modernization of gov ernment services, such as procurement, information technology, digital govern- ment–that's the management of the government's vertical and underground capital infrastructure through capital planning; project delivery and asset manage ment– building things like schools. It's supporting and pro- tecting the interests of Manitoba consumers, citizens, businesses, landlords and tenants through consume r protection, Resi dential Tenancies Com mission, et cetera.

In all the de partment has five divisions: capital planning and project delivery; Asset Manage ment; Digital and Tech nology Solutions; consumer protec - tion and Procurement and Supply Chain. The capital and project delivery division is respon- sible for negotiating bilateral capital funding agree- ments, developing and maintaining a multi -year capital infra structure plan, delivery and project management.

The division's goals are to e nsure efficient ex - penditure of capital allocations on approved projects, consistently apply risk management to capital funding and projects, improve asset management for all gov- ernment assets and provide real estate services to gov- ernment and over see real estate and property asset disposal. The Asset Management division is responsible for the safe and efficient operations of all CPGS owned and operated buildings to support reliable delivery of gov- ernment services and programs across Manitoba .

They also provide insurance and risk and real estate services to gov ernment, including overseeing leases and property disposal and acquisition. The Digital and Technology Solutions–DTS division– is Manitoba's central organization responsible for in- formation and com munications tech nology, and as someone with a background in IT, I especially appre- ciate having this in my portfolio. That includes cyber- security as well.

It also includes the business transformation strategy, policy and service delivery for the gov ernment of Manitoba, and strategic leadership to continuously improve the Manitoba government's ICT environment through planning and implementing solutions to meet current and future ICT needs. The Consumer Protec tion Division administers consumer pro tection legis lation, investigates and facilitates dispute resolution between consumers and businesses and tenants and landlords.

The division also provides oversight over public utilities and designated organi zations related to improving rates, overseeing land titles and personal property registries and issuing a variety of foundational certificates, including births, marriages, name changes and deaths through Vital Statistics. The Procurement and Supply Chain Di vision– PSC–sets the strategic direction, policies and pro - cesses for procurement and supply chain related functions across government.

PSC also provides strategic procurement services and co -ordinates procurement across Manitoba gov ernment de partments, agencies and the broader public sector. The division includes two special operating agencies, or SOAs: the Materials Distribution Agency, MDA, provides mail and materials dis tribution services to the public sector, and the Vehicle and

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2191 Equipment Management Agency, or VEMA, which provides competitive, comprehensive fleet and equip- ment management services to public sector organi- zations in Manitoba, including provincial department, agencies and Crown corporations.

The central capital pr ogram areas seek to ensure predictability of the gov ernment's commit ment to annual strategic infra structure invest ments and ex - pediting capital project planning and delivery through innovative project delivery approaches, including design, build and P3s. * (14:50) The department is also working with federal and municipal partners to deliver funding for worthy infra- structure projects, with the Investing in Canada Infrastructure Program, or ICIP, as well as future bi - or trilateral programs.

The department provides strategic leadership to continuously improve the Manitoba gov ernment's ICT environment through planning and implementing solutions to meet current and future ICT needs. And as part of its mandate, the de partment will continue to–its best efforts to –or its efforts to best utilize tax - payer dollars and work with stake holders to expand Manitoba's procurement strategy across the public sector.

Consumer Protection supports and protects the interests of Manitoba consumers, citiz ens, busi ness people, landlords and tenants, and we also increase value for Manitoba by investing and maximizing the value of owned assets, including working closely with the Legis- lative Assembly to restore the Legis lative Building, grounds around the Legislature and Government House, and if I may say, I'd love to see some air conditioning in this particular room sometime soon. I will do my best to get that done.

And also we obtain best value for Manitoba by modernizing procurement policies, standardizing pro- curement, planning purchases across government and sourcing products and services through a category management approach. That should be a quick

summary of what happens in my de partment. It is quite an –a lengthy list, as –I believe I was addressing a French crowd the other day and described my title and various –my full title, my complete title and all its various accoutrements and said it was a sacrée 'bouche-ful' [quite a mouthful]. And so concludes my remarks. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the critic from the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Mintu Sandhu (The Maples): Good afternoon to you and the minister and all the members and the staff from Consumer Pro tection and Gov ernment Services.

Really looking forward to the answers from the minister regarding P3s, Vital Stats, Residential Tenancies Branch, rural broadband and right to appear, and many more questions. And, yes, thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the member for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for a de partment in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer con sideration of line item 8.1(

a) contained in resolution 8.1. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Teitsma: It gives me great pleasure to introduce some members of my team. Immediately to my left we have Jos eph or Joe Dunford, who is the Deputy Minister of Consumer Pro tection and Gov ernment Services, recently arrived on these shores from out east. Across from him is Kathryn Durkin- Chudd, the assistant deputy minister of Consumer Protec tion.

And next to the deputy is Ann Leibfried, the acting assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer. And then against the wall is the most famous member of my entourage. You all know her, although you may not know what she looks like, for her signature appears in every elevator in all of Winnipeg, Cheryl Lashek, the acting assist ant deputy minister, capital projects, planning and delivery. Mr.

Chairperson: According to our rule 78(16), during the consideration of 'departamental' Estimates, ques - tioning for each department shall proceed in a global manner, with questions put separately on all resolu - tions once the official critic indicates that questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Sandhu: Can the minister undertake to give a list of all technical appointments in her–in his department, including names and titles?

2192 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 Mr. Teitsma: Sorry, all –just a clarifi cation, all technical–[interjection] Appointments. All right. I thank the member for the question. The one technical officer that I neglected to actually introduce, as I–my line of sight went straight through my assist- ant deputy minister, and so, pardon my neglect for that in the first response. I have with me Kyle Reenders, who is chief of staff, otherwise know n as a special assist ant, and he is, in fact, one of the technical officers in Consumer Protection and Gov ernment Services.

The other is perhaps a familiar name as well: Robert Gabor, who is the chairperson of the Public Utilities Board. Mr. Sandhu: Can the minister under take to give an organizational chart that lists all employees and program areas? Mr. Teitsma: All right. I thank the member for the question. I do have in front of me the organizational chart as of May the 1st at least. Many of the individuals have already been intro duced and the divisions I spoke to in the–in my opening statement.

But reporting directly to me under the organi - zational chart would be the Resi dential Tenancies Commission, the Automobile Injury Compensation Appeal Commission and the Public Utilities Board. * (15:00) My deputy minister, Joe Dunford, who you've met; and reporting to him from central Finance is acting assistant deputy minister Ms. Leibfried. And then going across the divisions within the department, we have Consumer Protection and underneath that is Entrepreneurship Manitoba and the Public Guardian and Trustee.

We have the procurement supply chain, under with–underneath which is the Materials Distribution Agency and VEMA. We have digital and technical solutions, under - neath which is MERLIN, or the Manitoba Education, Research and Learning Infor mation Networks. We also have Asset Management, which is led ably by Susanne Parent. And I should've mentioned, DTS is led by Hong Chung.

And then we have capital project and planning and delivery, which is led by Steven Spry; and then we have Corporate Administration and Planning–that position is currently vacant, but also included with that is strategic initiatives with assistant deputy minister Young. Mr. Sandhu: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Minister, for that. And also, I see equity and diversity is the main im- portant thing that I have seen in this budget document.

And can he please provide me the list of diversity in your –recently, t hat you have given, the list with women, Indigenous people, visible minority and persons with disabilities, please? Mr. Teitsma: I thank the member. I would refer him to page 36 of the Supple ment to the Estimates of Expenditure, where we describe the various equity groups that are tracked: women, Indigenous people, visible minorities and persons with dis ability, along with their benchmarks and then the actual percentage of total employees, at least as of December 31st, 2022, across Consumer Protection and Government Services.

But I should have a caveat in there that that would– at this time, these numbers would include the de part- ment of Labour, or the division of Labour at that time, because when these documents were prepared Labour was still joined together with Consumer Protec tion and Government Services. I hope that's enough specificity; as you can see, there's some areas where we'd like to see an increase. Visible minorities is actually almost double the target, so good news there. Mr. Sandhu: Can the minister probably break those down into executive, manage ment and individual contributors, please? Mr.

Teitsma: In the interests of brevity, I think the shortest answer would be no, I cannot provide that particular of a breakdown. We don't track it that way. I should also note that in terms of the stats that are there, it's a voluntary self-identification, so it's not neces- sarily tracked on every single individual employee. Mr. Sandhu: As the minister said, this is voluntary. And can the minister, maybe, take–undertake to pro- vide later on what those numbers are, whenever they are being provided to the minister and the department? Mr. Teitsma: Yes, appreciate the question from the member.

Just in speaking with my team here, we 'll cer - tainly attempt to get that information. If it's available, we'll provide it to the member. If not, we will let him know that it's not and why. Mr. Sandhu: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and the minister. Can the minister give a list of all current vacancies in the department? Mr. Teitsma: Thank you for that question.

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2193 Certainly, we don't track it on an individual position basis, but I can give you a divisional roll-up. So, within Corporate Administration and Planning, there are eight vacancies, which is 44 per cent; within capital programs, there is 171.7 vacancies.

That's about 30 per cent; within DTS –Digital Tech nology Solutions–there is 69 vacancies, about 32 per cent; within Procurement and Supply Chain, there is 16 and a half vacancies, or about 20 per cent; within Public Safety Communications Services, there are no vacancies, zero per cent; within Consumer Pro tection, there is 24.7 vacancies, or about 15 per cent. And I will mention that there are no vacancies in the Office of the R egistrar-General, the Public Guardian and Trustee or Entrepreneurship Manitoba. And that was as of May the 1st. We continue to hire. Thank you. Mr.

Sandhu: So, can the minister also provide the vacancies in Vital Stats, what percentage of the vacancies there are? * (15:10) Mr. Teitsma: I thank the member and, yes, happy to drill down in that particular division. As he knows, it's receiving con siderable attention from myself as the minister and also from him as the critic. And so, happy to report some progress being made there as well. There is an active hiring process under way, and so we actually have a staff member starting next week and one the week thereafter.

After those two people have started work, there will be five vacancies on 42 total appr oved FTEs, so that would be an 11.9 per cent vacancy rate. But what I will mention in addition to that is that, in addition to those full-time staff that we have work- ing, we also have some temporary staff that have been allocated as well as–so, there's three of those–as well as 13 full -time STEP students that have also been brought to bear onto–into division.

So, that actually brings us to 51 people working full-time at Vital Statistics, so I guess that would put my vacancy rate somewhere around minus 20 because we actually have more people working in the division than the budget allows. Mr. Sandhu: On this Estimates book, on page 8, it states that the number of employees will only increase by six. Why is the department not planning on filling those vacancies this year? Mr. Teitsma: I thank the member.

I hope I'm understanding his line of questioning properly here, but as he's indicated, the budget for '23-24 does have six more staff in it in Consumer Protection and Government Services than it did in '22 and '23. Of course, there are vacancies, as we've already seen, within that. Efforts are being under taken to fill those vacancies. And I think, you know, what I just reported from Vital Statistics certainly indicates that the commit - ment is there to get those vacancies filled, and I think you can see that reflected in some of the increases in expenditure that are expected as part of this year's budget. Mr.

Sandhu: Thank you, Mr. Chair and the minister, and I will like to move on to P3 schools now. In 2018, the PC government looked into construc- tion–constructing P3 schools, yet abandoned the idea after finding it would cost taxpayers more. The study found that for the same cost as building four schools using pre-three models, the Province could build five schools using traditional methods. Yet now, the minister has announced they are going to build schools using the P3 model, despite no evidence that it will be cheaper than the traditional method.

Can the minister explain why is his gov ernment planning on building schools through a P3 model , despite knowing that they will cost taxpayers more? Mr. Teitsma: Certainly happy to talk about our com- mitment to building schools. As the member knows, we're building far more schools under this govern- ment than had previously been built, and that's my priority, as I want to ensure that those schools get built and get built quickly and are high quality. So, that's why I'm under taking this approach because this is an approach that will get nine schools built in a matter of just a few years.

They're going to be built two years ahead of the original commit ment made by my –by our gov ernment. We're going to build, not just the 20 schools that we committed to building, but 23 schools. So, three additional schools, two years sooner, and that's more than enough reason for me. Mr. Sandhu: I guess–thank you, Mr. Chair, for that, and the minister for that explanation, but isn't it –this was not really the answer that I was looking for.

2194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 I was just–to know what has changed since 2018? And we knew, through the study that the government has done, that it will cost taxpayers more. And what has changed since then that we are using P3 models, other than maybe, as the minister said, quicker? What other had changed? Like, how is it going to be cheaper for the school division to take over? Mr. Teitsma: I think I understand a little better what the member might be getting at. And so, he asked what has changed since 2018?

I think, on any other table, such a question would be met with 'incredgiluity', incredulousness. Now, I'm not sure what the right word is there, but we're going to put that in Hansard and they'll have to spell it. And that's simply because we've gone through a global pandemic. We've gone through incredible disruptions to supply chains. We've seen unprecedented construc- tion inflation, not just on a year -over-year basis, but sometimes, you know, on a month-over-month basis, as tenders are put out and then bids are received.

And then, as the construction actually proceeds, there are significant challenges caused by the pandemic and in– disruptive to our supply chain. So, one of the benefits of a P3 approach is that it insulates government against those disruptions. And so that would be one way in which the market is different today than it was, you know, in 2018. But, again, and I would challenge the member's assertions, I think, in terms of costs. Certainly P3s have been used as a model to construct schools in many other provinces in Canada and elsewhere.

And certainly, P3 has been used as a model in Manitoba to build some of the best roads that we have here in the city of Winnipeg. All those are hopeful and optimistic things there, I think we can take from that. * (15:20) Certainly, there's some lessons to be learned from some of these other provincial implementations, and I think the member is well aware of what I might be referring to there. But that's why we are going to ensure that this approach here in Manitoba is going to work well. It's going to insulate Manitoba taxpayers.

It's going to insulate children and parents from the uncertainty associated with our supply chain challenges and our construction inflation. And it's going to ensure that we get quality schools built quickly, which is really what we're after. Mr. Sandhu: The question still stays the same. Why would any busi ness want to lose money? After they can bid on a contract, or after they can build schools, they will want to make sure they are making money. What exactly had changed?

Like, how is it the private, like, one big company building seven schools going to make a difference than the traditional way of building schools with the local private contractors? And where you have probably seven different contractors, compared to one big contract through that, they will be subcontracting to the smaller ones. But, again, the contract–the one company that will be bidding on the contract want to make sure they are making money. So, how is that protec tion to the taxpayers of Manitobans? Mr.

Teitsma: Yes, lots to dig into there, so we'll see if I can get –if I can remember it all at least, as I get through it here. What I would say, first of all, is that it's not one company. Typically with P3s, what you have is y ou have a consortium of companies, often a consortium of local companies, that come together and that make the bid. What–I would just remind the member, too, like, the goal here is not just to have a quality school built, but a quality school maintained.

And so, that –there can be certainty that the costs associated with properly maintaining that school are known up front, and that they're well understood and that they're properly funded–contractually funded. I can remember when we first came to gov ern- ment in 2016 as the Progressive Conservative govern- ment at the time, we were quite mortified to find how much deferred maintenance existed within the–all the schools across this province.

We had sig nificant projects that had not been done: building envelope, roofing, new boilers, acces- sibility renovations that were left undone, sometimes for more than a decade and were greatly overdue–that doesn't happen in a P3 model. In a P3 model, there's a contractual obligation to properly maintain the asset and to keep it in almost like -new con dition. You know, it's essentially like a deluxe warranty on a – extended warranty on a vehicle.

And so, you know, certainly we don't want to fall into the member's mathematical issues where, you know, maybe he pretends that a school built the traditional way costs less because the NDP never

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2195 maintained them. I certainly want that–wouldn't want that to be the case here. We have schools that are going to be properly maintained, that are going to be built, you know, by local construction companies, for the most part–that's my expectation–that are going to be high quality right from the get -go and throughout the 30-year period. So that's really what we're after.

Now, why would companies be interested in this kind of a job is the same reason they're interested in any kind of a job, and that is so that they can do some good work and help grow our economy, pay their employees, drive business, drive growth here in this province, ensure that their company can prosper as well. And that's my ex pectation, is that that's exactly what will happen. And we've seen that evidence first- hand.

I think about the companies that built, you know, the P3 roadways that I've mentioned; you know, the Disraeli overpass, the Chief Peguis Trai l, the Moray Street–these are some of the best roads in Winnipeg, and everybody knows it. And everybody knows that if a pothole does appear on one of these roads, it's typically addressed very quickly and in a way that's permanent in the solve. So those are really what I expect to have happen.

And one of the other benefits I just want to make sure the member understands, when you're dealing with the total cost of owner ship, when you're looking at the project over a 30 -year period, you make better deci - sions in that first year. Maybe you invest an extra 10 per cent in a particular building component because it extends the life of that component by 50 per cent. That gives an oppor tunity for the –for money to be made, and that's the kind of –by the company –but that's the kind of savings that just would not happen under a traditional model.

So those are just a few of the reasons, I guess, that we're pursuing this model, but I think Manitobans are happy to have a commit ment to build, not just 20 schools, but 23 schools –so three more schools –to have those schools built two years ahead of our original commitment of 2029. Now they'll be built by 2027. I know that, you know, folks in my com munity are very excited that Devonshire Park school is going to be part of those extra nine schools. I know the member for Dawson Trail (Mr.

Lagassé), he's giving me the big thumbs-up here as he looks down the table because he knows that in his com munity as well there's going to be another new school, a high school, built as part of this bundle of nine schools. And given that there's nine, I assume there's probably seven other happy MLAs wandering the building. I'm not going to list them all right now, but I'm pretty sure we can agree that building new schools–lots of new schools–is good for Manitoba. It's good for Manitoba students, parents and our province. Mr.

Sandhu: In his response, the minister said it will cost more than the traditional way of building schools. So the minister is admitting it, that it will cos t more, as he just answered in his just previous –my previous question, he answered it. Mr. Teitsma: Well, I'll have to check the Hansard, but I'm pretty certain I didn't say that. So maybe it was a misunderstanding. Generally speaking, P3 projects, in the long term, when they're looking at the total cost of ownership, a P3 project will cost less than a traditional build that is properly maintained.

Now, what I would say to that member is I have seen some suspicious mathematics being espoused by people who are opposed to P3s for political reasons that are looking at the actual costs of maintaining a school. Under the NDP govern ment, the actual costs of maintaining a school were, of course, minimal because they weren't making the invest ments.

And at the end of this–at the end of the process, you ended up with a school that's crumbling, needs a new roof, needs a new boiler, the elevator's broken, the bricks are falling off the walls, and then to say that that building costs less than the P3 school built down the street that has a building that's–or a roof that's going to last another 50 years, that has bricks that will never fall off, that it has an elevator that's going to work without anything other than routine maintenance for another 10 years.

I'm not going to compare those two and say that I should only compare them on the basis of how much money was put into them. I don't doubt that a poorly maintained school that didn't receive the treatments – the investments that it needed would cost less tha n a properly 'maintuned' school. But I can tell you this: Manitoba students, Manitoba parents do not want to send their kids to that. They want to send their kids to well-maintained, properly built schools, and that's exactly what they're going to get with this government. * (15:30) Mr.

Sandhu: And maybe the minister's response also telling me that in the last seven years, they haven't really funded the schools properly. Is that correct?

2196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 Mr. Teitsma: Oh, Mr. Chairman, I have no idea where the member's g oing now. And I should, you know, perhaps, pause between responses here a little bit more. But I'll just, you know, at least set the record if not completely straight at least a little straighter than that. And what I would say is that when we came to government, what did we find? Not just poorly main- tained schools but portables. If the previous gov ern- ment focused on anything, it was building portables. I think the Education minister, Nancy Allan at the time, thought that they were great.

She thought they were wonderful. And I think, you know, the last I checked, there was over 360 portables in use by the NDP when they were in charge–360 –360. That holds 9,000 students in portables. So, that's not happening anymore under our gov- ernment. We are building schools. We are building– we've already got 14 of them either completed or under way. We're going to get another nine of them built as part of this schools project. These are signifi- cant investments, investments in schools that amount to hundreds of millions of dollars.

In fact, over the last five years, $984 million has been invested in educa- tion capital spending. That's five years, $984 million. And lest the member think that we're in any way taking our foot off the gas, the projection for the five years after that is more than $300 million higher. It is $1.297 billion of investments planned in capital–edu- cation capital spending over the next five years. That is $1,297 million. So, in total, over a 10- year period, our gov ern- ment will have invested more than $2.2 billion in edu- cation capital infra structure.

That is far beyond any - thing the previous gov ernment ever did, even when you include all the money they wasted on portables. Mr. Sandhu: I guess probably I'll just move from that because we can go back and forth on this one. We can even–as I see the minister just walked in, we can go to his quote from 2018. But I'll probably bring that one up later on. Provinces across Canada just as Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia are moving away from using the P3 model to build schools. Nova Scotia's Auditor General found that P3 schools cost $52 million more than standard construction.

P3 schools in Regina prohibited teachers from opening their windows or decorating thei r classroom. Alberta cancelled their plan to build schools using P3s in December. They have learned their mistake from P3s. Can the minister explain why has the government not learned from the mistakes of the other provinces? [interjection] Mr. Teitsma: I'd love Hansard to reflect that at last, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Goertzen) has refrained from heckling his own minister and has moved on to the critic, and for that, we can be grateful. I expect he'll be headed back my way soon.

But, nevertheless, the member mentions he doesn't want to go back and forth. I think I agree, I think I want to go forth. And I know that Manitobans do not want to go back, and they don't want to go back to the NDP where they, you know, neglected the needs of students in Manitoba by housing them in portables, making them trundle across frigid parking lots at -35° to go to an overcrowded, undersized washroom and to hope to share a gym if it wasn't closed because the roof was leaking. That's what going back looks like. Going f orth looks like what we see happening in the Waverley West neighbourhood.

Bison Run School, I think I just got recently to visit– man, is that thing a piece of beautiful work. It is so, so well put together; it has so many amazing features. Included in it is a extraordin- arily high-quality school. It's exactly the sort of school that Manitoba parents want, it's exactly the sort of school that Manitoba students want to go to school in and it's exactly the sort of schools that will be built as part of this Manitoba schools project. Now, I am remembering that I think the member was referring to some of the other provinces.

I think there's been some successes, there's been some issues; certainly, we're a gov ernment that actually listens. We're a government th at learns. I'm –I've got within my department a procurement division that I think is quite possibly the finest in the entire country, and I expect that they are going to do a phenomenal job on this particular project. They're going to knock it out of the park and they're going to make sure that if there were issues in some of these other provinces, that they've learned from those mistakes, that we ensure that these schools are built properly.

Now, I will just–before the member might even want to go there –I think I've heard him say, well, if there was mistakes in some P3s then, you know, why would you do them at all? I'll just remind the member that every opportunity to tender a government project has possible challenges associated with it. We've seen examples. Just look at Keeyask, where cost overruns were rampant and where, you know, the way in which that project was tendered and the decision -making

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2197 processes around it created all kinds of hardships for Manitoba ratepayers and Manitoba taxpayers. Procurement is a science and an art. It has to be done well, and I'm confident that the team within Consumer Pro tection and Gov ernment Services has the ability to do it well. That's why we're going to proceed. Thank you. Mr. Sandhu: Minister, in his a nswer, said he's –his department is –or he or his de partment is listening. And I just want to know, because earlier they did a study. They'd listen –they didn't listen to that study, whoever did the study.

And now they said they're listening. Can the minister explain a little bit more, maybe, who he's referring to when he said they are listening? Mr. Teitsma: I–if I didn't make it clear enough, I guess, in the first response, I can make it a little clearer now. * (15:40) Many of these experts work in my department. They are procurement experts. That's why they're in the procurement division in a position of leadership– not just in our province, but I genuinely believe across the country. And I'm incredibly proud of them and of their abilities.

They certainly have, you know, demon- strated their ability to deliver projects for Manitobans. And so when they recom mend that we deliver these nine schools in this model, then, absolutely, I'm going to listen to their advice. Now, what I would remind the member of is, you know, some of the other provinces that he might want to talk about and some of the concerns that were raised in some of these projects is that there's various ways that P3 models can be constructed. I want to make sure the member's aware of how these projects can be constructed. There's a number of acronyms in play.

DBFM is the approach that we are taking; that means design, build, finance, maintain. DBFOM is the method that is in use by some of the provinces where there were some issues, and that's an operate -and-maintain model. We've made it very clear that the schools will be owned publicly and that the schools will be operated by the school division exactly the same way as, you know, a school built down the street under the traditional model. And so, from a parent's perspective, the schools– these schools are going to be amazing. From the student's perspective, these schools are going to be amazing.

From the school division's perspective, these schools are going to be amazing and they' re going to be built before the enrolment pressure reaches the breaking point, not after 9,000 students are stuck in 361 portables across our province. That's the way the NDP did it. We're not doing it that way. And if you take a look at the beautiful sc hools coming up in the Waverley West division, you take a look at the beautiful schools happening in Winnipeg north, take a look at the schools planned in the Brandon area–all of these schools are addressing enrolment pressures that have not yet reached critical mass.

And they're going to be built ready to receive these students. That's what planning–good planning, proper execution can get you. I know the member might not be familiar with that, he certainly is not going to get that from the NDP Education minister, Nancy Allan. After all, she thought the portables were a wonderful, wonderful solution for the problem facing Manitoba students. Mr. Sandhu: Minister also has said –like, I'm agree, like, hundred and ten per cent, there's lots of good people in the department that are doing good work on behalf of Manitoba ratepayers. And–but my question still–go back to 2018.

So, what was the reason of doing the study 2018, spending taxpayers' money, when we know we have a great mind sitting in the department? Mr. Teitsma: I thank the member, and I 'guets' we're right back to the back- and-forth where he wants to take us back, you know, five years, 10 years, 15 years. We want to move forward. And moving forward is what we're going to do. Moving forward with this project is going to deliver nine high- quality schools in our province. That's going to happen in relatively short order.

I–you know, under the NDP, I talked to a number of school trustees, and they told me it was routine that, between when a school would have an approval from the NDP provincial government to when they actually could get students in the building, eight years, nine years–took forever. Part of the mandate given to these highly talented staff–and I do thank the member for acknowl edging the amazing technical staff that we have working in

2198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 that division. Certainly cannot say enough good things about them, and I'm glad the member agrees. But, you know, when they make a recom men- dation based on the project parameters that have been given to them–to build nine schools, not just four or five; to build high -quality schools; to build schools that'll be maintained for decades in a high- quality state, and also to be built in this post -pandemic environment where there's a lot of uncertainty–I trust their expertise, and I think the member should too. Mr.

Sandhu: Even though the minister didn't really answer what had changed or what was–why the study was done in 2018, what I'll –I'd like to move to a different question. Can the minister provide details on the proposal– proposed deal to build schools using the P3 model? Will the Province own the schools? Mr. Teitsma: Yes, the Province will own the schools. Mr. Sandhu: How much it will cost the taxpayers? Mr.

Teitsma: I suppose if the member, you know, woke up one day and found $600,000 sitting in his bank account and–along with a note from the family to say, please use this $600,000 to build a house, I would recommend strongly to him that he not share that figure with the people doing the building and tell them exactly how much he has to spend, as much as those contractors–or, sorry, as much as those car sales- men and house salesmen, you know, might want to know exactly how much you have to spend when you show up at their business.

And so, you know, I don't want to suggest that the member's not ready in any way to be in government if he's asking questions like that. That wouldn't neces - sarily be charitable of me. But I will say that, certainly, we understand in gov ernment that it's best to let the tendering process and the competitive process drive the price and not put out figures that might suggest that we're willing to pay more than we would otherwise have to. Mr. Sandhu: I'm sure the minister and the department have those numbers that–how much it will–going to cost the taxpayers. I'm sure they have studied those numbers.

Is there any studies done to see whereabouts those numbers will be–just the internal part only–they have done any studies on that one, though? * (15:50) Mr. Teitsma: Yes, I thank the member. And I'm certain that we will know what the price of the project is after it's been awarded. But saying it before, is kind of like the Minister of Justice (Mr. Goertzen) was just telling us about his wife's en gagement rin g.

He made the mistake of entering the jewellery shop and saying he could spend up to $3,000, and out came the recommendation for a $3,000 engage ment ring, which is probably twice what I paid for my wife's en gagement ring, I'm ashamed to say. But I told my wife–[interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order. Order here, guys. Mr. Teitsma: –she could spend up to $5,000.

In any case, I think the member –I hope the member can see why it's im portant to allow the process to drive the price and to not, you know, provide a sense even of what the price range might be, because of the impact that might have on the tendering process. We want to ensure that we're getting good value for taxpayers, and once again, I, you know, I'm not an expert in procurement yet, but I know that people in my de partment are, and so I trust their advice on that as well. Mr. Sandhu: So the minister said earlier that they won't be using a single vendor. Is that correct? Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member.

Oh, sorry, the honourable minister. Mr. Teitsma: You know, certainly, it's–the creativity of Manitobans is, I think, boundless, and I expect that will come to bear in this process as well. The door is certainly open, and the expectation, based on what we see happening in othe r provinces, is that a con - sortium–well, actually, multiple consortiums –will likely form. And those consortiums will together put together a bid to, you know, a proposal to deliver the nine schools. And that's my expect ation of what's going to happen this time, as well.

So, it's not really fair, I think, to talk about a single vendor as if there's one company that's fronting the whole thing. It will be a bid, most likely put together by a consortium of companies, many of those com - panies I expect to be local right here in Manitoba. Mr. Sandhu: We know, like, P3 schools in Regina prevented teachers from opening their window or decorating their classroom. Will the teacher be allowed to open the window and decorate their classrooms?

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2199 Mr. Teitsma: I should know already if the member has kids in school in Manitoba, but I'm sorry, I don't necessarily know that off the top of my head. But I certainly do. [interjection] You have one? One? [interjection] Good. I've got the indication there's one student. So you may have seen from time to time art on display, paper art, often, you know, maybe in the hall- ways of the school or in the classrooms of the school, or if not there, then certainly on your fridge at home.

But what I would say is when art is on display in the classroom and in the school, there is a limit. And that limit's actually part of fire code. I think it's around 20 per cent here in Manitoba. But, certainly, you don't want, you know, a lot of flammable substances on the walls of a school. You want to make sure that you're taking reasonable precautions there. So I would certainly expect Manitobans to follow fire code when it comes to putting things –coming things–putting things on the walls and ensuring that that's the case.

I know that the school that my kids went to, they got a visit from the Fire Com missioner and were told that they had a little bit too much up on the walls and had to take some down. And they got a little too enthusiastic with their artwork, and that does happen from time to time. S o we certainly need to make sure that fire code and building codes are followed. And so I just want to preface my response with that. What I would do is I would also–I would just remind the member that these schools are publicly owned and that they are going to be operated by the school division.

So if the design of the school includes, you know, windows that are not openable, I guess you can't open them. But if they are operable windows, so that they can be opened, yes, they will be able to open them. Mr. Sandhu: So I think the minister already said the school divisions will have the control over the school. Is that correct? Mr. Teitsma: Yes, I thank the member for the question. You know, I think I've made it clear that the school divisions will be able to operate these schools the same way they operate other schools.

But when it comes to, you know, major maintenance that needs to get done in the school–roof replacements, for example– well, that's the responsibility of the Project Co, as it's called, or the consortium. And so what I think would be different than the way that, you know, traditional schools are managed under the NDP is that when the school building needs a new roof, they'll get one –not 10 years later. When they need a new boiler, they'l l get one –not 10 years later, but when they need it is when they'll get it. The school will be properly maintained. And that's one of the key benefits of this approach. Mr.

Sandhu: Will all the schools be identical, or they will have a similar design for all the schools? * (16:00) Mr. Teitsma: I'm happy to report that the answer to the question is no, but I'll give a little bit more infor - mation to the member beyond that. For starters, you know, they're–if you look closely at the schools that are part of the nine schools project, there's–some are grade 9 through 12 schools with industrial arts sections and the like; some are K to 8; and then I think there's also a K -to-12–a couple of K-to-12s in the list as well.

So I would assure the member that certainly those three design profiles will not be identical, nor should they be. But when you're talking about, for example, I'll use a K -to-8 school–that's what's going to get built, you know, in my neighbourhood as part of the new development north of Cos tco; that's going to be a K-to-8 school –and I would expect that a lot of the design elements in that school and the way it's built will be similar to the other K -to-8 schools in the bundle.

But there will be an op portunity for school divi - sions and the parents in those school divisions to kind of indicate some of the priorities that they might have, the local priorities they might have, and some of the, you know, parti cular aspects of the design that they might want to see reflected. That op portunity will be there. Of course, it's limited, because we're going to be building, I mean, funda mentally, what do you need? You need classrooms. You need gymnasiums. I don't think there's any reason for one K-to-8 gymnasium to be 10 feet longer than the other K-to-8 gymnasium.

I expect they'd all be the same. And so, yes, I think the answer to the question is no, they are not going to be identical, but largely the same when it comes to the same programming needs: K to 8, K to 12 and 9 through 12. Mr. Sandhu: So, K to 8, like, the schools they are having be built, they will be similar in design. And grade 9 to 12 will be similar in design. Is that correct?

2200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 Mr. Teitsma: Yes, I'd expect that the designs would be similar, but not identical, because the program needs are similar, but not identical. Mr. Sandhu: When will the contract be signed? Mr. Teitsma: Happy to inform the member that the tender–or, sorry, that the contract will be signed when the tendering and negotiation processes are complete. Mr. Sandhu: When that will be done, then? Mr. Teitsma: Certainly, I wouldn't want to rush that process, but at the same time, we don't want it to drag on. So we're going to ensure that the process is done well.

We want to make sure that all the necessary steps are followed, negotiations done properly and that the team of technical experts within the procurement divi- sion are satisfied that they're moving things forward that they're comfortable with. So, when all that is done, that's when the–when it will be signed. The intent is to have these schools open in 2027. Mr. Sandhu: I have some more questions about the PC government's use of P3s.

Did he send a request for proposal posted by the department stated that the Gov ernment of Manitoba was looking to pr equalify suppliers to provide engineering and architectural services to buying groups which consist of Manitoba Health organi- zations, MBLL, MHRC, Manitoba Hydro, the govern- ment as a whole and MPI? Can the minister explain what project his depart- ment is looking to at using P3 model for? Mr.

Teitsma: I've got to tell you that we've been chatting with my folks here on this side and we're not really sure what the member is exactly referring to, so I would ask for two things: I would ask that he repeat the question, and then if he does have a copy of the document he was referring to, and that –the parts that he's quoting, if he could share that with me so I could hand it to my technical staff so they at least know which document in particular we're referring to. It's a big department. There's lots going on. Mr. Sandhu: This is related to procurement on page 21. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order.

Order. If you guys have something to discuss, please take it to the back of the room s o you wouldn't disturb people at the front. * (16:10) Mr. Teitsma: I thank the member for the clarity of the page number. I'm looking at the page number, and I remember him saying the words Hydro and MPI and I'm not seeing that on the page. So if he could explain, I guess, which page he's referring to spe cifically, or which program, or which paragraph. And–just to make sure I'm actually understanding the question. Because I'm not really seeing what he's talking about and how that would apply to things like Hydro and MPI. Mr.

Sandhu: I guess, probably, I'll get back to the minister on this one, because I'm also looking at that page and I don't see it either. So I'm going to just get– maybe just going to go to Vital Stats from here. So just earlier, I think my question was what was the–vacancy rate was at the Vital Stats. Can the minister also provide what was the vacancy rate for the last five years in Vital Stats? Last five years. Mr. Teitsma: I thank the member for that question. Five years' worth o f vacancy infor mation I do not have, but I do have the last eight months or so.

And so we have, during that time, had a vacancy rate that went as high as 40 per cent, as the member likely knows, just as I entered the role as minister of this de partment. Certainly, I think you can see the results of my focus on this de partment in terms of what happened with the vacancy rate soon after that, as in March the vacancy rate declined from 40 to 32.5. In April, it declined to 19. In May, it's at 11.9.

And on top of that, as I indicated, there's so many temporary and full -time students –step-students on staff that the vacancy rate is actually a negative num- ber, I guess, because there's 20 per cent more staff than there are FTEs approved in the budget, as we have 51 full -time staff and a 42 full -time equivalent budget complement. So, certainly, we've been heading in the right direc- tion, and I would say have completely turned around the issues that were being caused by, you know, an unacceptably high vacancy rate within that department. Mr. Sandhu: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and the minister.

And I was just wondering, like, the minister had the number for the last eight months, but doesn't have

May 10, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2201 the numbers for, like, say –not five years, two years, three years? Mr. Teitsma: Thank the member, and, you know, I did provide the eight months of vacancy information. And I think, as I indicated to him earlier, we're a government that wants to move forward and not, you know, not look too far backwards other than learning from the mistakes of, maybe, previous gov ernments or other gov ernments, sometimes our own, but less often.

What I will say is that I'm incredibly proud of the work of the folks that do work in Vital Statistics and also the co -operation tha t I've got to witness first - hand. * (16:20) We've got –all reporting up to me, I guess, in various ways–I have Vital Statistics reporting to me, but I also have digital and technological services, and they're helping, and then also, of course, the Publ ic Service Commission through a different deputy report- ing to me as well.

And they've been brought to bear to really ensure that we address the vacancies and the contribution that those vacancies had to the service levels being delivered by Vital Statistics. The member knows that what's happening at Vital Statistics Branch has my attention and has the attention of my staff and my deputy correspondently. And so that's certainly where our focus is, it's on moving forward.

And I'll just remind the member, like, we've essentially gotten this vacancy rate down to 11.9 per cent at this time, effectively at minus 20 when you include the temporary staff and the students that have been brought to bear. And this is at a time when across Canada in every jurisdiction there have been staffing challenges.

There are high vacancy rates affecting not just gov ernment but many industries as well where, you know, restaurants have been forced to change their hours and hotels have been shuttering floors and constructi on businesses are unable to bid on contracts because they just can't find enough workers.

So I think on that backdrop, to look at the accom- plishments of my department and–both in CPGS here and in the Public Service Com mission–to take a de - partment like Vital Statistics and to take it from having a 40 per cent vacancy rate to essentially a negative 20 per cent vacancy rate in a matter of three months; that's a tremendous accomplishment. I'm incredibly proud of them.

I'm very pleased to see t he work that they did bear fruit, and I'm en - couraged as I look out on the future that we're going to ensure that Vital Statistics delivers world -class service to all Manitobans, especially with all these staff now helping and being brought to bear. Mr. Sandhu: This is on the Estimates book–sorry – budget, and page 25. It said VSB partnered with Manitoba Gov ernment Inquiry to answer inbound telephone calls. This has been always the case, or this is some- thing new? Mr. Len Isleifson, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr.

Teitsma: I'll make it up to the member for taking a few minutes there to answer the question by giving him, you know, maybe three responses to previous questions that we left unanswered earlier today. But first, I'm going to deal with the question he just asked, which is around the use of the Manitoba Government Inquiry line as a way to help with inbound calls to Vital Statistics. So, that practice began on November the 15th, 2021, pretty much right in the heart of the pandemic.

And it was done as a way to address some of the staffing challenges that had already appeared within Vital Statistics, at that time, that were making it chal- lenging to deliver the services in the way that we want to be delivering them. * (16:30) The intent is to–now that we have a full staff complement, certainly, we're bringing them to bear and–in clearing the backlog and improving response times and wait times for birth certificates, death certificates, marriage certificates, both the registration and the issuance of a certificate. All those are in scope for us.

And, as that is improved, the expect ation is that the assist ance of MGI for inbound calls will also revert back into Vital Statistics. We do have positions available to do that work, and our hope is that we'll be able to bring that back into Vital Statistics, you know, as we address the backlog. Now, I did promise a couple extra answers for the member. So, I did find the vacancy rate as of a year and a little bit ago. So, as of March the 25th in 2022–so that is 13 and a half months ago –the vacancy rate within

2202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2023 Vital Statistics was 39.5 per cent. So that's some infor- mation that I'm sure the member would be happy to receive. And then, if we recall back –earlier in the after - noon, when we were ta lking about equity and diversity benchmarks, and if I had that by, you know, senior management. So, I do have the –my staff been working on getting the executive level breakdown.

So, for the executive level breakdown–and that would be deputy ministers, assistant deputy ministers, executive directors and directors that provide leadership to con- tribute to the strategic direction of the organization – there are 34 people in those positions. And, as you can perhaps guess based on who's sitting beside me at the table here, more than 50 per cent of them are women –specifically, 52.9 per cent are women–2.9 per cent are Indigenous, 5.9 per cent are persons with disabilities and 17.6 per cent are visible minorities. So, I was able to get that infor mation. I hope that's useful to the member.

And look forward to continuing to answer ques - tions for many, many hours more. Mr. Sandhu: Thank you for that infor mation, to the minister. And so when people call the government inquiry line, how long they are usually on hold before the call is

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	42-5-52
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	42nd 5th hansardpdf 52.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1b2a77c76bccde814213a1d4629a43dbfd33c665

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