LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 26 April, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): Call the comm ittee to order. We're in Economic Dev elop­ ment and Tourism. 2(e)

(1) Salaries-pa ss. The Member for Stu rgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): The Campers' Associat ion, the camp people th at have the northern fishing camps and hunting camps spend their winters at many shows in the Un ited States drumming up business for their sum mer occupancy and we usually have some indication after the y've finished the Minneapo lis Show and headed for Win­ nipeg, then they go north to open up their est ablish­ ments, have we any indication as to what their occu­ pancy will be this year where the booking is good in thei r southern tour s? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. HON. MUR IEL SMITH (Osborne): Mr. Chairperson, we do have an indication that the bookings are slightly up over last year, but we don't have any pre­ cise numbers. MR. JOHNSTON: The Awareness Program that was started last year with any organization that wanted to have the staff come out and present the Awareness Program with the film, et c., will it be conti nued this year? MRS. SMITH: Yes . MR. JOHNSTON: The program that has been started with, or maybe it's under Des ti nation Manitoba, would the Hotel Assoc iation or industry trai ning - am I asking it under the right

section of Salaries or is it in Des tination? I can't wait. I just want to know how well it's going; it was advertised. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, ther e were about 50 groups that rece ived the hospitality presenta tion this year, the Awareness Program, and the inten tion is to conti nue it. MR. JOHNSTON: The salary increase that you have here, the increase in Salaries, ther e's three extra peo­ ple. Does tha t account basically for the increase? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperso n, ther e has been one person with the responsibility for st rategic planning adde d to the section. MR.

JOHNSTON: This is a sep arate person from the St rateg ic Planning and Economic Devel opment? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. MR. JOHNSTON: Doe sn't the department have a promotional or a development director that would be involved in St rateg ic Planning or has that changed? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperso n, a planner was added during the period of time of your govern ment. It was a planner added to the department so that the adj usted vote was up one and then we are maintaining the same staff complement for this year. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I guess I should know.

Is the planner under the Travel Manitoba Deve lopment Department? MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. JOHNSTON: This is the department that would be, tha t were anyway, working on the development of the programs under Des ti nation Manitoba? MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. JOHNSTON: And under the program as far as 6, and the other program, I believe, is the Winnipeg Planning and the Winnipeg Des tination Area and Rural - I guess it's 3, 5 and 6? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, the planner was involved in the study that was done under program 1, and the dev elopment of a long-term strategy for tour ­ ism that came out of that st udy as well as with its application to a shorter term plan to apply to Des ti na­ tion Manitoba. MR. JOHNSTON: I just didn't catch that, it came out with a what? MRS. SMITH: Well, ther e was the study under pro­ gram 1 tha t was to develop a strategy for the entir e tourism industry in the province; that's a long-term strateg y.

Then ther e was a shorter term stra tegy de­ veloped for specific application to the Des ti nation Manit oba Programs 2, 3 and 6 that you were referring to. That's the Winnipeg and Rural Capital Project Dev elopme nt and the program 6 which was In cent ive to the Private Industry. MR. JOHNSTON: There were some effo rts made last year to try and get more of the Eu ropean tou rists in the Province of Manitoba. Certa inly all our figures show th at our bigge st market is to the immed iate south of us and the market even further south had been growing.

As a matter of fact, all of the figures in most areas were up in '81. Is there any more effort going to be made to get tha t European tou rist dollar? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, in the overall analysis the Eu ropean tourism count is fairly small and the atte mpt to target or to evaluate what kind of advertis­ ing gener ates that type of tourism is very difficult to evaluate. It was felt that for the marketing dollars to be effect ively spent, they have to be focused in an area where ther e's some probabil ity of get ting a fairly high 1847

Monday, 26 April, 1982 response. So for that reason, we've focused our mar­ keting strategy and our adver tising on the three pro­ vinces, Ontario, Alberta and Saskatc hewan, and the two states immediately to the south of us. MR. JOHNSTON: I know the market is small but there are some tourist industr y promotions or shows that are held in Europe each year and we usually find that Ontari o is there with about 20 people trying to attract the Eu ropean tou rist. Other provinces in Can­ ada make pretty big pitches to be attract ing that to ur­ ist.

I never did agree with tho se who said tha t market was not a good one for us. I think that our Nor thern Manitoba is what the Eu ropean perso n wants and espe cially if it is properly presented to them, and the use of the Canadian Govern ment offices over ther e and the fact that other provi nces are tr ying to have that European touris t is one that I think can benefit us. Has there been any discussion with the weste rn prov­ inces as to promote sort of a western to ur in tourism? In other words, start in Man itoba and end up in B.C. or start in B.C. and end up in Man itoba.

The re was a very small amount of discussion started on tha t. Is that continued? MR. CHAIRMAN: Because of the conversation going on around the table, we are having a little difficulty hearing the speaker so I wonder if we can keep it down a little. The Honour able Minister. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, with regard to the first question about consultation with ot her provin­ ces, we have in fact talked at some length with Sas­ katc hewan who did put a fair bit of time, money and invest ment into attract ing the European investor, or tou rist, and their evaluation is that really it's not worth it.

If you can tote up the money spent on trips over there and the wide dispersal of advertising, because the data tha t comes to us in terms of the European people who come here, the y're not focused in any one area. Their esti mate of the situation was tha t was not an effe ctive way to do it.

Now, the prospect of grouping toget her and mak­ ing a joint presenta tion, I think, holds more promise and since we are a part of the national tourism groups, I think tha t it would be appropriate to explor e tho se kinds of group processes with them because the Fed­ eral Govern ment working through their CGOT and the TIAC, the national organ ization of tou rist organi­ zations, are working jointly on coming up with a national plan, the pu rpose of which is to try to give mutual benefit by approaching the tas ks of marketing and servicing the tourism industry in a co-ord inated way.

I think that working, co-operating with them is the line that is going to provide us the most benefit in the longer run, so we will take up the member's sug­ gestion and explor e the possibilities of some kind of co-ordinated action; that way it may be econom ical to do some targe ted advertisi ng in Europe. MR. JOHNSTON: The adver tising campaign, when you say in Canada, is it just going to be in Ontario and to the west of us, or is it going pretty well eve rywhere in Canada? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, the approach to advertising we are ta king is a targeted approach.

The numbers of tou rists that we attract from specific areas is so much greater than the numbers we get fro m the ot her provinces that the bulk of our formal advertising will go to th ree provinces and two states as I referred to earlier. As we work along with the federal organizations, we will, no doubt, find that there is some kind of a broad­ brush gener al advertising th at we can do thr ough them and by linking up some of the activity across the country, we would probably be able to reach a lot of those tr avellers when the y sort of get into the western region.

They would get some benefit of our adver ti s­ ing at that point. The airlines would all do work at advance sales of to urists and do try to encou rage touris ts to stop off in differe nt areas. So I think as our major attract ions are develo ped here that th ere'll be a natural flow into that co-ordinated national prog ram, but at this point in time because we ha ve limited resou rces, it seemed wiser to targe t our marketi ng activitie s. 1848 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I would just like to mention tha t the tourist doesn't always go back to the same place every year.

You've got to be hitti ng at other markets continually because the y don't always take the same holiday. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heig hts. MR. WARREN STEEN (River Heights): Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, and I wouldn't expect th at she personally has been con­ tact ed, but if her office has been contacted by the Manitoba Curling Association in a recent conversa­ tion with Mr.

Vic Palmer, a past president of the Curling Association, he spoke to me about the proba­ bility if the Manitoba Curling Association put a bid in for the 1984 or the 1985 Silver Broom, what would be their chances of obtaining the Conve ntion Centr e here in the City of Winnipeg as a host facility for the extra curricular activitie s that go with the Si lver Broo m? I might point out, Mr. Chairman, that the Silver Broom would attract somewhere in the neigh­ bourhood of about 4, 000 persons to the City of Win­ nipeg of which many of them would be from Europe.

Through you and through the Minister, has her department had any conversations with the Curling Assoc iation about Winnipeg hosting such an eve nt in approximately 1984 or 1985? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, we have had informal discussions with the Man itoba Curling Associat ion. We would consider seriously and likely be able to accommodate a convention of that size, as we dis­ cussed earlier today, some of the problems of book­ ing large numbers into the Convention Centre because we're deal ing with many many hotels.

A concept has been proposed that we try to introd uce comp uterize d booking and we've underta ken to analyse tha t care­ fully and see if, in fact , at what stag e of our develop­ ment tha t might be an econom ical move to make, but we haven't done that at the present . MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I have been to London

• • I • - Monday, 26 April, 1982 and I've been to Alberta Hous e in London, and the Alberta Govern ment has a very strong tou rist and travel promotion office ther e that primarily looks for the European skier and promotes both Banff and Jasper. I know that Manitoba doesn't have the facili­ tie s that Alberta does and it would be very difficult for Manitoba to promote in Europe for winter vacations in Manitoba because, quite frankly, we don't have what Alberta has to offer or what Colorado perhaps does to the skier.

But I do believe tha t curling is a growing game in Europe and that there's a number of rinks from Manitoba, meaning teams, that do go over to Europe each year and partici pate and some do come back here.

I wonder, through the Curling Association, if some packages could be put together and we could make a str onger effo rt in years to come to try and influence groups of 32 partici pants of coming to Manitoba and being hosted here by mo re than one group, perhaps spe nding a day or two in one com­ munity and on to another one and maybe spending a week in our province and seeing five or six different communities while the y're here. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, that is a good idea. That kind of outr each and thinking ahead to offer a variety of packages.

I have tal ked with the Convent ion Centre people and understand some of the services they can provide. The earlier, of course, such an approach is made, the more likely that a group like that could be accommodated and the better the ser­ vice would likely be. We have, in fact, supported Silver Broom activitie s before to the tune of $15,000, so th ere is a kind of gener al commitment to that type of activity here. MR. STEEN: That is fine, than k you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Mr.

Chairman, I think that following on the line of sug gestions that have been made by my two colleagues here, the Mem ber for Stu rgeon Creek and the Memb er for River Heig hts, are a number of reasons why Eu ropeans might be enti ced to come here regardless of what the Sas­ katc hewan experience has been.

With all due respect to our friends and neighbours in Saskatchewan, I do th ink that Manitoba has many different and unique attract ions that Saskatchewan doesn't including the inland port at Churchill, the possiblity of seeing polar bears, that ride out on the tr ain and all of the northern area which, I think, is conside rably more attract ive than many areas that Saskatc hewan has to offer and, as well, even Lake Winnipeg, the Whiteshell and tho se areas could be a very popular tou rist att raction.

I know that European tou rists are coming in large numbers to various parts of North America; I guess primarily because of the monetary rate differential, that their buying power is so much greater now than it was five years ago. Canada is an attract ive place for them to come and since many of them are coming on ski packages and for other reasons it may well be possible to enti ce them to come here if a proper pack­ age could be put together.

We could, I'm sure, adver ­ tise many of our attract ions or even just use a slogan for the West Germans and the Swiss - "Come here and visit your money." They've lent us some money recently and they could come here and visit their money. So I sugge st that ther e may be reasons to look into it; that was rather facet ious, but I do sugge st that having met some Europeans in a variety of different locations in Canada, they didn't come to Manitoba only because they didn't know about Manitoba. In conversation with them, I think, ther e might be some great benefit in promoting it ther e.

As opposed to promoting it in provinces in which our adjacent neighbours and the neighbours in the States adjacent to us, our countryside is somewhat similar to their s and the y may not be tha t all attracted in here

whereas tho se from West Germany, certainly. I mentione d tha t I summer in Gimli and I've met liter ally thousands of Ic elanders who come there regularly for the Icela ndic weekend in Augus t and the y are invariably impressed with their visit here and many of them come back on a five or a ten- year basis. So I see no reason why we couldn't attract Eu ropeans with the proper kind of promotion campaign and it may well be worth it as part of the Minister's future consideration. MRS.

SMITH: We do meet with the pote ntial Eur o­ pean tour, or at least the European tour operators who do offer potential for Canadian tou rs at Rende zvous Canada. This is the annual tr ade show held for their benefit; ther e will be one in Calgary next month and we'll certainly be ther e. Actually ther e has been a decline in foreign to urists enteri ng Canada just in 1981 over '80. It 's not a high decline, but it is a decline where we've been ex pe­ riencing growth; it's gone down .8 percent. The high air fares seem to be, and the difficult economic cir­ cumstances abroad seem to be contributing to this .

Now we can, of course, distri bute some of our litera­ tur e th rough Canada House in London. I think the thought of mainlining a Manitoba Ho use ther e or in other European centres is on an order of expen diture that probably goes beyond anything we might con­ sider here. I would think that a lot of our specialty markets probably get communicated through word of mouth, either through specially organizations, peo­ ple interested in polar bears, for example, or northern wilderness canoe trips and that sort of thing.

Also, I think we shouldn't ignore the fact tha t pr ob­ ably a lot of very effect ive advertising goes throug h our own Manit obans who come from or have distant relatives in European countries, and I think that the prime motive for many European tou rists coming here is to visit family, but when the y get here the quality and number of special attract ions that we have in Man itoba obviously provides a great lure.

We will be em barking as a govern ment on promotion of mul­ ticultur al groups, and I would think that probably if you went to the lslendingadagori nn that you would find a great many of the visitors from Ic eland probably had relatives in the Gimli area.

If the honourable members believe that there is a low cost eff ective way of advertising in 70 European countries and further that we should consider, I'd be interested in hearing your suggest ions but, as you well know, adver tising is cost ly and when you're deal­ ing with multilang uages you have an additional factor and I submit that we could spend a great deal of money very unproductively by trying to cover the 1849

Monday, 26 April, 1982 wate rfront. We're adopti ng more of a st rateg ic approac h and I think at this stage of our development that's the most appropriate way to go. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to remind the mem bers that the proceed ings are being recorded, and we are having difficulty hearing and I think the person that's asked the quest ion has the right to be heard as well, so we would like to keep the noise down a little. 2.(e )(1) - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID R. (D ave) BLAKE (Minned osa): Yes, Mr. Chairman. I just want ed to mention one or two thi ngs.

My particular area, of course, as you well know, is located in the heart of one of the biggest tou rist attrac­ tions in this province, namely R iding Mou ntain National Park -(I nterjection )- just str aight south - and my constituency takes in most of the park. There is an overflow area that is beco ming more and more popular, Mr. Chairman, thr ough you to the Minister. There is a consider able development around the fringe s of the park where th ere are subdivisions for cottage sites developing at a greater pace every year.

Also in the Sandy Lake area, which is not too many miles to the immed iate west, ther e is a considerable number of smaller lakes in ther e that are providing a tremendous attract ion to people that want to have a waterfront site.

These sites are being taken up at a consider able rate, and the homes being constructed, the y are not really cottag es, the y are pretty substan­ tial summer homes being constructed in ther e. and I jyst wondered if the Minister or members of the department have done a st udy in that area to ascertain the tou rist development pot ential in that particular area because many of the lakes have been stocked over the years with fish and are providing quite good fishing facilities in that particular area.

Over and above tha t, of course, when we were in the Hig hways Esti mates, Highw ay 250 that we've been urging to have completed runs from the south right into that particular area and ther e are only a few miles of it left to be completed, as soon as the Budg et will allow, that will bring the tou rist traffic into that partic­ ular area. And as anyone knows, if you'r e pulling a trailer or a boat, if you can tr avel on pavement you're not likely to tr avel over 10 or 20 miles of gravel road regardless of how good it is and once you're on tha t pavement you're not likely to leave it.

So it's tak ing traffic into the park which is probably congested now and where a lot of it could be maybe diverted into a more scenic and quieter area for tho se that are seek­ ing that type of summer recreation in quieter areas. I feel that ther e is just a tremendous potent ial in there for further deve lopment of the tou rist industry and I know the docking facilitie s in Sandy Lake itself, while there's a good beach facility ther e and a reason­ ably good dock, the dock is fairly old and is rotting and requires considerable renovations.

I know that the y have applied for some grants in order to rebuild this dock ing facility for the large number of boats and that, that atte nd ther e in the summer seaso n.

I just wondered if the Minister might give me some indica­ tion of what studies have been done or what stu dies are planned in that area because I know the y are now in the process of writing the histor y and the y have applied for grants on the histor y of the area and what not, and I feel ther e is a tremendous potential in th ere to handle the ove rflow and those that cannot be accommodated in Ridin g Mountain National Park and that immediate surrounding area. I just would like her to comment on what has been done in that particular field. MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, the big st udy that was done under the Des ti nation Manitoba Pro­ gram 1 did identif y the Riding Mountain Duck Moun­ ta in as one of the major des ti nation areas for devel­ opment. Now, the y've identified 10 different types of developm ent that can occur in that area, not all of which, of course, would be a shorter term priorit y. I can just highlight it for you perhaps.

Ri ght around Minnedosa, ther e needs to be a lot of general tourism service development - food , fuel, accommodation, small scale attract ions, and then in the immediate vicinity they feel that ther e is a lot of opportun ity for the development of dude ranch farmer s' market type of activitie s, vacation farms and so on. A little further into the Riding Mou ntain area, ther e is a possibility of developing a new medium­ sized western ranch resort with quality accommoda­ tio ns and overnight-day equestrian. trails. Now, of course, that starts to give a little more diversification.

There is a suggestion tha t the accommodations could be expanded in Wasa goming, stop off and rest areas along Hig hway 10, possibly an interpr etive program, an upgrading of park facilities; a tourism plan for the corridor between the national park entrance and Erickson, and then a variety of developments along Hig hway 10, including roofed and campground accommodations, expanded wayside parks - some ­ one was asking about them this afte rnoon - support for various attrac tions in the area.

You may have heard, it's been quite an ext ensive presenta tion made by the Dau phin people for their Ukr ainian Cultur al Centr e on the outsk irts of the Riding Mountain Park, just outside the Riding Mou ntain Park, and that is sort of the gen eral plan for that area. 1850 Now, you talked about fishing and cottage sit es.

As you wel l recall perhaps from when we were in gov­ ernment before, we like to see a mix of opportun ities for private cottag ers and sites that are available for the public, particula rly for the lower income tou rist who may find a cottage quite beyond their means and yet who st ill need access to the lakes for recreation. We are interested , of course, in not overload ing any par­ ticular lake or area so that the very fish and wilderness environment that people seek isn't dest royed by over­ loading an area.

I think the study and the long-term strategy with our shorter term focus under Dest ina­ tion Man itoba gives us quite a reasonable plan and strategy for tha t area and I'd be interested at any time , if the honourable member has some more specific questions or sug gest ions, that he give them to me or work direct ly through the department or encourage his local people to apply for some of the programs that are available because I think that area is one that has a lot of potential and should see quite a lot of healthy development in the next few years. MR.

BLAKE: Yes, I appreciate the Minister's com­ ments and ther e is no questio n that, I think, everyone figures developme nt on a scale that will allow people

Monday, 26 April, 1982 from all walks of life to enjoy that type of nature outing that so many of us enjoy in the summer. The problem with building cottages and trying to keep them within the means of, as she might say, modest income earners, you run into municipal planning by-laws and building sta ndards that really require a fairly ade­ quate building to be constru cted.

Now, in order to meet with all of their various provincial zoning by­ laws is one of them, but I think tha t parti cular area is more suitable for that type of development than is Clear Lake because real estate arou nd Wasagaming and the outside of the park has gone out of sight for some of th ose of more modest incomes. I know lots are selling just outside the park for $10,000, $12,000 $15,000; that's just for a lot.

So you try and put a modest cottage on ther e and you are looking at prob­ ably $50,000 by today's sta ndards, so that is really get ting out of the reach of the type of people that, I think, go into the area that I'm referring to. And the docking facilities, of course, are required for those tha t tow in a small boat of some type, bring the family, the y all go out and fish all day, the y picnic on the lakeshore and they don't have a cottage to go to.

That is one of the reaso ns I mentione d tha t dock­ ing facility, tha t it is in need of substantial upgrading and I hope the department would take a look at tha t and provide whatever exper tise the y might to the people the re, whether it be by advice or some te chni­ cal help. I know we have asked Highways if the y have an engi neer in the area of doing a bridge site if th ey would just maybe take a look at the dock and give us the benefit of an unsolicited and free engineering opinion on what it might cost to develop it.

I know the y have received author ity for a grant of $5,000 or $10,000 through the municipality under the Lotte ries Program for work on that dock, but what it might take, I am just not too sure. The Minister mentioned, Mr. Chairman, the area between Erickson and Sandy Lake and ther e is an area ther e that's a trem endously popular marsh area in the fall and, as it's well known, that area I represent is known as the pothole country of Manit oba as far as Mallard hunting and some other diving ducks, notably the commonly known canvasback.

I think ther e are probably more masters deg rees in biology have come out of that particular area than anywhere else in North Ame rica. The area is extr emely popular and I think with the added facilities, it will probably be more pop­ ular, but I know the Tourist Depar tment doesn't maybe promote too heavily the aspect of hunting for maybe reasons not appreciated by us hunters, but that particular sport and pastime brings in a tremend­ ous amount of money to the tou rist program as does fish ing and sig ht-seeing and all of the other aspects tha t we attri bute to touris ts.

We are located in one of the excel lent hunting areas in Manitoba and I hope tha t's not overlooked by the department when the y are promoti ng travel to Manitoba, that they lean heav­ ily on Minnedosa Constituency because it is one of the most scenic and pretti est and has the finest peo­ ple in Manitoba. I hope that receives consideration when they're promoti ng the Des tination Manitoba. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I was just wondering if you were recommending the fine people to do the hunting or for the hunters.

Ho wever, jo kes aside, the hunting industry, I think, does get promotion particu­ larly under the supervision of the Natu ral Reso urces Depar tment. Our joint aim, I think, is to preser ve the best hunting for Manitobans. Now, that might not always bring in the best dollars from across the border, but I think with tourism that a major part of our total program has to be to provide a mix of recreat ion opportun ities to our own people as well as to attract some outside visit ors and natur ally their money, but we don't see the industry shifting to a complete focus on bringing in outsider s.

We think tha t it's importa nt to maintain these trad itional recreat ion opportunit ies for our own people. MR. BLAKE: There's no doubt about tha t and we cer­ tai nly don't want to deplete the game for outsid ers, but if the y want to come and hunt our areas, they natur ally pay for it. Their tou rist promotion is effe ctive enough that they got me down to Io wa, Ne braska, to shoot pheasant last year. That's something that I can't do up here, although I probably could have gone to Alberta, around Brooks, and done the same th ing.

They have just got a tremendous promotion program for tha t particular sport because ther e are particular areas tha t are suited to it and the y prom ote it ve ry, very handsomely and the y do a tremendous business in tha t particular season of the year. But I wouldn't want to have that many tou rists in here tha t they were going to overrun the local people because, after all, I' m a firm believer in we look after our own. But, as I say, if they do want to come in here and enjoy that facility then they are required to pay for it by licence fees or whatever other accommodation may be charged to the tou rist.

I want to have it on the record that the Sandy Lake­ Erickson area hasn't been overlooked with the over­ flow from Clear Lake and I know, from what the Minis­ ter has told me, that her department is fully aware of the benefits of that particular area and they will do whatever the y can to encourage people to tr avel in that particular part of Manitoba. MRS. SMITH: I really don't have much to ad d, excep t the honourable member might be interested to know we get quite a few inquiries about people who want to come and shoot pictures. MR.

BLAKE: I might indicate to the Minister, being a member of the Game and Fish Assoc iation and

an act ive participant in wildlife preserva tion and conser­ vation in Manitoba, that I have, on occasion, when my limit has been obt ained to put the gun down and take the camera in hand myself and enjoy it that way. 1851 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. DON SCOTT (lnkster): Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to add a couple comments to those that were made by the Mem ber for Minnedosa.

I think tha t when you have a major tou rist att ract ion like you do in Riding Mountain National Park with a number of peo­ ple coming, ther e's also the poss ibility of attrac ting a lot of people who are coming to make a quick buck off a resource that is there and attract ing tou rists to the area. My only concern with the Des tination Manitoba

Monday, 26 April, 1982 project in that area, at least, is that ther e should be some sort, or at least I'd like to see within a general perimeter around the park to some deg ree, some kind of a coding system or not even a coding syste m, but some sort of sta ndards est ablished for the types of facilities that do go in so that the facilitie s do not detract and look like you're driving through a ghetto before you get into the park itself.

In other words, you can have the same problems you do outside of some cities in our fair country where you have a rash of comme rcial developments that are ther e because of low taxa tion rates and prox imity to a valuable resource and are not necessarily adding an awful lot to the cou ntryside.

Cert ainly, when you drive through that countryside, I'm sure the member will agree with me, it's one of the prettier parts of our province and I think that we should be working with the operato rs who are ther e currently and also with any other tou rist operators who are thinking of locat­ ing in the general district; that ther e be basic codes estab lished with the municipalities when one must have to or would have to in this case work alongside them, the entrepr eneurs who are being involved with it, so that we have some thing to add to the area rather that det ract from the area with a whole bunch of - well, like was in years gone by of shack towns and one thing and another growning up beside a major resource.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e) (1) -S alaries-p ass; 2. (e) (2) - 0t her Expen ditu res-pass; 2. (e)

(3) Grant Assista nce - the Mem ber for Stur geon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: I'd just like to ask the Minister, there's no change in the Grant Struc ture Progr am, or Grant Assistance Program as it's called? It 's st ill being operated and administrated in the same way? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, yes. That doesn't mean that every request gets automatically approved .

If . there has been any complaint or question raised about an activit y, we do go out of our way to send out whatever the relevant govern ment represe ntatives are and atte mpt to either help a group that haven't quite measured up to the ex pecta tions from the pr evious years grant, to remedy this situa tion, and plan a little more effe ctively, or in effect to evaluate carefully whether or not to conti nue our grant syste m, but most of the grants do go thr ough very much as the pattern was before. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (e) (3) -pass; 2.(e)

(4) Canada­ Man itoba Tourism Agr eement - Des ti nation Manitoba-p ass. The Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, is ther e a rundown of the six programs under this that can be made avail­ able to us? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, we have one or two spare copies here which can be - oh sorry there are four. I'll just wait a moment until you have them . As the honourable member knows three of the six pro- grams were active up until now and th ree ot hers we hope to have active fairly soon.

The first one, St udies in Planning, a major study was done of the tourism opportun ities in the entir e province. This was a study tha t looked at the physical resou rces, the historical patte rn, the particular patt­ ern of set tlement, and the opportun ities in the area; how the y related to major traffic routes and atte mpted to ident ify what tourism developments were compati­ ble with an area; then to make that information avail­ able for the de sign of both the long-term strategy and the short-term strategy for the Des tination Manitoba program. Items 4 and 5 have also been in action.

Those pro­ grams, the attract ion and events, local fest ivals year round, where there's been a fair amount of commun­ ity input, and we have quite a diversity of attrac tion and events that are sup ported under that; par ticul arly for the marketing component of the program. Und er program 5, In dustry Organization, I did refer to that earl ier where the hotel people and the restau rant people and the Tourism Association do receive some assistance with thei r activities.

That's because we do recognize that the se peer groups are very influential in helping one another develop in seeki ng out the innovative thing to do, the best way to market their services, and in fact maintain a good st andard. The prog rams which should come onstream very shortly are 2, 3, and 6; 2 and 3 are the Capital Devel­ opme nt Prog rams for Winnipeg and rural attract ion areas in turn; and the final rural incentive one which provide s assistance to private sector operators in the tou rist field. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for Thompso n. MR. STEVE ASHTON (Thompson): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

One concern I've had with Des ti nation Manitoba, previously at least, largely from my own local experience, has been the delays which have take n place in terms of the hammering out of criteria, of accepting applicat ions - well in fact the whole process has really been a two-year delay.

It 's been a particu lar concern to a number of local groups in Thompson, particula rly the Myste ry Mountain Ski Hill Complex Group which is trying to develop a facility ther e which would have particular application for tourism not just in the local region but also in Mani­ toba gener ally, because we have one of the finest ski facilities in the province there. 1852 One of the problems they had was that the y were told to wait for the outcome of the consultants' report. This was a process which had to be followed before any criteria could be set, before applicat ions could be received.

Then they fo und, much to their surprise, that in this massive great document they weren't even mentio ned once despit e the number of representa­ tions the y've made to the Minister's Depar tme nt, this being the previous Minister, and in fact to the consul­ tants themselv es. I'm wondering if the indication you've given that projects 2, 3 and 6, or tho se sect ions of the Des ti nation Man itoba Project, that the y will be conti nuing fairly soon moving towards some kind of resolution which would indicate that this group would finally get some kind of an answer, an answer the y've

Monday, 26 April, 1982 been waiting about two years for. MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, the northern area could qualify as a specially market. The st rateg y recommended by the people who did the study was split between promoting general attract ions that would appeal to a general mix of tou rists and the y followed the main traf fic routes, the main car tr affic routes through the province. That's where you see White­ shel l, and the Winnipeg Beac h, and the Numb er One Corridor, and the Ridin g Mountain, Duck Mou ntain areas as prime desti nation areas.

The northern area for a gener al attrac tion was in The Pas-S now Lake -Flin Flon area, which does seem to exclude Thompson. Ho wever, under the specially market area, ther e was a refere nce to Churchill because of it's unusual terr ain and wildlife. The Thompson area, th ere was not a lot of refe rence to it specifi cally, except that ther e's a refe rence to North­ ern Manitoba and Churchill in an umbrella way.

There where it says, "C reate disti nct market image for dif­ ferent areas through promotion programs, upgrade lodge facilities, strengthen disti nct image of Churchill based on unique historical and natural resources." Now that can be interpr eted to include the Myster y Mountai n Ski Lodge. There's a certa in amount of dis­ cretion left to the department in terms of how to allo­ cate the monies.

No w if it were decided to put money into tha t ski facility, I know the money required is specifi cally for a hydro line - I think it's about 11 miles - in order to provide the power to tur n water into artificial snow so that ski facility can have a much extended life, but that type of program would not only greatly enhance the ski hill for the local resident s but it would also provide a facility that could be appealing to resident s from out of the province.

I think it's a good ex ample in a way of a tou rist att ract ion that will take a lot of selling, because although I myself I know have lived in the north but I did n't imagine a mountain quite as high as Myster y Mou ntain is having quite as much potential for ski runs. Ho wever, having had a chance to go up there in the middle of winter and see the variety of slopes and really the beauty of the place, and seeing it from the point of view of people up ther e who could see it as a destination for school groups, for weekend groups, even for competitions from out of province, I began to see the possibilities.

It cert ainly is the type of attrac­ tion that might not have jumped immediately to mind as having potential, but with a deeper look at the possi bility and some imagination in terms of what the market could become, followed up with a fairly good feasibility study, I think could lead to it being deve loped.

Some of the considerations that would have to be taken into account were whether or not a declining population in that area of the province would very much affect the market for such a development, or whether in fact some developme nts of this sort might in fact help compensate for the decline of employ­ ment of other types. Now, these are the kind of ques­ tions that aren't answered yet, but the y would be part of an initial feasibility study for just that type of pro­ ject; but I assure you, because things weren't menti­ oned specifically in the overa ll study doesn't mean that they can't be considered.

There is a wide flexibi ity under this specially market area of the program. MR. ASHTON: I thank the Min ister for her compre­ hensive answer. I would just like to add tha t I would perso nally recommend this particular project for two reaso ns. Fir st of all, it draws on one thing which we have quite a bit of in Thompson; that is, str ong com­ munity support, str ong community activity and I note in th at regard that regard the amount of fund raising that has already taken place in regards to tha t com­ plex.

It 's simply astr onomical if one looks at the pr es­ ent situation in Thompson to see the amount of money the y've already raised for the project, it's run­ ning in the several hundred thousand dollar range. Second of all, I note the fact tha t we have another asset in the North, alt hough it's not always descri bed that way, and that is that we have rather cold weather, sign ificantly colder than down south, and I'd note in that regard the fact tha t this weekend while it was 29 deg rees here in Winnipeg, it was snowing in Thomp­ son .

Now, that may not seem like much of an asset always; it is certai nly an asset when it comes to skiing, although we often find we have the cold weather but not quite the amount of snow to support the ski runs. That's why it is so important to get this power line in and get the ar tificial snow-making machiner y. So, as I mentioned, this particular project draws on two resources we have a lot of; one is strong commun­ ity act ivity and the seco nd is cold weat her, so I would cert ainly recommend it to the Minister and the department. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, the member did draw atte ntion to the delay in implementation of the pr o­ gram. I can't account for all of the delay, but I know tha t some of it can be attri buted to the gener al pattern that goes on in these federal-provincial agreements; that is that the early phases are devoted fairly exten­ sive st udies so that the larger amounts of money that ten d to be paid out in the middle to later year s of the agreement can be strateg ically targe ted.

Certainly, some of the delay has been attri buted to tha t, but I gue ss we all know the problem of when an agreement is sig ned, expecta tions are raised and we may think we're stan ding on our head at the gove rnmental end, but I'm sure it always seems like a long delay out in the field as the proverb ial red tape see ms to get in the way. 1853 I can assure the member that we have a will to proceed with this program and we think tha t it will provide a small, but sti ll sign ificant economic impetus in some of the se smaller communities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to make one com ment. I could appreciate the enthusi asm and the community spirit that was ex hibited in the North, espe cially Thompson, as the member has stated, but I just want to remind the Minister that in our consti­ tuency of Minnedosa, with Agassiz Ski Valley in Min­ nedosa and even Glenor key, we have the finest downhill ski facilitie s, comp lete with chair lifts, tow bars and everything between Thunder Bay and Banff and we're close to most of the million people that live in this province. I would hope that she is not going to

Monday, 26 April, 1982 funnel funds off to take people up to that snowbound, 35 deg ree below weat her, where they can ski in com­ fort at Minnedosa with automatic snow-making facili­ ties already in place. So, I wouldn't want her programs to get at cross purposes in Des ti nation Manitoba. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, one of the pheno­ menon we're noticing in our modern way of life is that we te nd to focus on the decl ining eco nomy at the moment, but overall, people sti ll are having a great deal more leisure and ther e seems to be a hunger for a variety of good quality recreat ion opportunities.

I submit that the more ski opportu nities th ere are, the more skier s ther e will probably be and I think we haven't satu rated that market at all, so I can see skiers in the Minnedosa area that master tho se hills are going to want to go and tr y Mystery Lake. Belie ve me, some of them are pretty steep and the Mystery Lake people may even be attracted to come down to Aggasiz and there can be a good ex change in Mani­ toba.

In stead of them eating for free at home, the y can atte nd the local mote ls and hotels and shop in the little stores and we'll have a self-sust aining type of economic activity here in Manitoba. MR. BLAKE: From what I'm told, Mr. Chairman through you to the Minister, that when the y reach that stage, that Banff, Whistler Mou ntain and various other places become a lot more attract ive than Thompson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Thompson. MR. ASHTON: I would like to invite the Mem ber for Minnedosa to come up to Thompson during the win­ ter. You'll see how attract ive Thompson is in terms of skiing. MRS.

SMITH: I'll second that motion. MR. ASHTON: I take by his comments that he per­ haps hasn't had enough time to really savo ur the enjoyment of a good day's skiing on a good cold day and the follow-up in the chalet afterwards. MR. BLAKE: Watch the ravens to tell the temper a­ tur e, because every thir d wipe of the wings the y go like that, when it's 30 below. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Stu rgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A study, I know, was just completed around the end of August last year and then th ere was an analyzation done of the study.

The Minister has outli ned that the study has given them the opportun ity to move ahead with 2, 3 and 6. The problems tha t we had with Myster y Lake is until we had the st udies completed , ther e was another ski place that was desper ate ly wan ting funds, La Rivi ere area wanting funds, who have some very find ski hills down in that area. Until you had the study for the department to work with, to be able to make deci­ sions on the basis of to urism benefits, it was just almost impossible to pick one community over another to try to do something.

There was an atte mpt made on one occas ion last year to tr y and find an amount of about $15, 000 a year over the next three years for Myster y Lake. I, person­ ally, would have had no object ion to that even if we'd have maybe fo und the money in another area. I have stood on tha t ski hill in very cold weat her myself and probably been in Thompson more than the Mem ber for Thompson, and I can assure you that I'm very, very aware of the Thompson people that gather out at that Myster y Lake ski hill on Sundays.

It 's a tremendous community thing, but it has to be desig nation of, hopefully, an increase in tourism to the area before we could show favo uritism over one community for another. The Winnipeg Desti nation area, as the Minister says is the now we're going to get moving; what plans has ther e been made regard ing a tou rist attrac tion for Winnipeg? Ther e was a presentat ion made to us on one occasion for a western town on the western side by one developer. There were many people who had very good ideas as to what we could do for more of a tou rist attract ion in Winnipeg.

Is any of the money being used for Des ti nation Winnipeg for the advancement or the promotion of the Convention Centr e? I think the monies in that particu lar program could be maybe moved around to take a look at assistance to the Convention Centr e in some way. The Convention Centr e in Winnipeg is probably your second largest tou rist attract ion, your Racetr ack being first. I just wondered what plans th ey have for Winnipeg and what discussions have been put toge ther for the Winnipeg Destination area? MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr.

Chairperson, the status of the report and the criteria and all the rest in get ting the programs launched is such that we're just finalizing now the criteria. There is a bank of ideas for all the se programs, particula rly for programs 2 and 3 and I'm sure that the honourable member probably can remember most of them because the y were submitted or identified when he was in fact the Minister. 1854 There is, as yet, no weeding out or focusing on the priorizing of these projects because without the crite­ ria it really would have been -w ell ther e was no basis on which to make the selection.

But I can assure you we will look at each suggestion carefully and we will be sett ing up a board that will be evaluating the se different options according to the criteria we've set out. I don't see the Convention Centr e having been ident ified in so many words, but it goes without say­ ing that it's an important gener al attract ion and sup­ port to the tou rist act ivity, so I can assure that it will be given full conside ration, but it really would be prema­ tur e for me to say that it will come up as high priority. MR. JOHNSTON: The rural destination areas, ther e were many ideas and presentat ions on that.

Of course, there were many applicat ions brought in on the Rur al In centiv e Program. Has there been any decision made as to the destination areas that will be moved into? In other words, is ther e a priority of 1, 2 and 3? MRS. SMITH: They haven't been priorized in that order, but they have been identified. Eastern Mani­ toba, the gener al Whiteshell area; the Lake Winnipeg Bea ches - just a minute I'll make sure I' ve got the short-te rm and the long-term. The He cia area, The Pas Tourism Service Centr e in No rthern Gateway;

• - Monday, 26 April, 1982 Cranberry Portage is in Outfit ter's Village; accommo­ dations and servi ces in The Pas, Flin Flon and Snow Lake area; accommodations and services in Riding Mou ntain and Duck Mountain; attract ions on Hwy. No. 10 corridor; farm vacation opportunities in the Southe rn Parkland; attract ions, information services on the Trans Canada corridor - this is just referring to the priority projects for Winnipeg which haven't yet been identified. MR. JOHNSTON: Ha ve the guideli nes for the No. 6 Rural In centiv es; are they in place and ready to go? MRS.

SMITH: They have n't yet received Cabinet authorization, so the y're not completely in place. MR. JOHNSTON: I would only ask because I'm fully aware of how long it has taken to get tho se guidelines to a situa tion that was going to be fair to ever ybody tha t applied; is it ex pected that the y will be approved fairly soon? MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. JOHNSTON: There is just one area, I go back to campgrounds agai n, and I know the Minister men­ tio ned ther e was no plan really set out on camp­ grounds, but there was cert ainly some discussion among Ministers.

I must say it wasn't into the depart­ ment that much, except that I'm sure the staff heard my opinions on it several ti mes, that there should be money for upgrading campgrounds in the Province of Manitoba. I noticed the Minister mentions something about wayside sta tions along No. 10 Hwy and that sounds that the report is recommending wayside sta­ tions similar to what we have between here and Farg o or here and Grand Forks, the y're really good sta tions fro m the point of view of fac ilites for people when the y're travel ling.

Just generally in the whole Des tination Program, does the Minister feel that ther e is some room for upgrading of campgr ounds and cert ainly looking at more stations along the highways or upgrading the ones we have? We have some beautiful ones, the y're in beautiful areas but the facilities at the wayside stat ions along the highways in Manitoba are no t as conven ient as the y are in other areas. So I'm just repeating myself from this aft ernoon, asking the Min­ ister if ther e's somewhere in here that the se can be upgraded?

The Minister of Parks and Re sources doesn't have any money for upgrading in his budget and maybe we can find something here to get it going. MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, in some of the fine print of the Riding Mou ntain, Duck Mou ntain plans, it did refe r specifically to campgrounds and wayside park facilities. At this point, I haven't got the det ail of every area before me, but I can assure the member that we see as a high priority the improve­ ment of our public park facilities . MR. JOHNSTON: That's all I have, Mr. Chairman.

I am just very anxious to see the criteria on the rural incent ives once the Cabinet has passed it because I'm very aware tha t the industry out ther e has been wait­ ing a long time for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (e) (4) (

a) Salaries- pa ss; 2. (e) (4) (

b) Other Expen ditures-pass. MR. JOHNSTON: Where are you now? MR. CHAIRMAN: Just finished Destination Manitoba. Did you have another quest ion the Memb er for Stur­ geon Creek? MR. JOHNSTON: No, I just was having tr ouble find­ ing that little (

a) and (

b) hidden away ther e. MR. CHAIRMAN: Res olution No. 48 - Resolv ed that ther e be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $18,6 04,200 for Economic Devel opment and Tourism for Operations for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983-pass. We have one

article left on 1. Exec utive (

a) Minis­ ter's Salary. The Honour able Member for Stu rgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to thank the Minister for her co-operation during the Es tima tes. I must say the y we went very smooth ly until the Memb er for St. James came in one night, but oth er­ wise thi ngs went very well. I must say tha t the department is operating basi­ cally the same as it was previously. There are some small changes in it and I would say tha t the structure of the department is one that will work efficiently.

Although I must say that I am a little disappointed in the fact that the Minister has some views about the developme nt of economic development in the Prov­ ince of Manitoba that are a little discouraging to me to say the least, I'm very concerned that the Minister or the policy of the govern ment is to definitely, and I say defi nitely although the Minister talked around it dur­ ing the Estima tes tha t it wouldn't be that way, but there is going to be a move to try and direct where industry will be going in the province.

There's cer­ tai nly going to be a move to have more and more government owned corporations within the Province of Man itoba that are either going to be competing with the prese nt industrie s, or being built up with the taxes of other industries that are in competition to them. I don't think that's going to be an attract ion for other business to come to the Province of Manitoba.

The idea, first of all, of the regional deve lopment corpora­ tion and in towns and municipalit ies having the initia­ tiv e to go out and get people to come to their area, or businesses to come to their area as one tha t has been proving excep tionally well in the Province of Mani­ toba, and espe cially in the rural area, because the figures are ther e. The figur es are ther e to prove that manufacturing had been growing in the rur al part of Manitoba and industrie s from the outside have been very inter ested in rural Manitoba.

I did go back and read the Ministers state ment where she felt that public corporations would be bet­ ter for the Province of Man itoba than private industry on the basis that the y aren't able to move and et ceter a and you can control the profits and keep them here. I would have to sugge st that the public expen ditur e in the Province of Manitoba should not be really devel­ oped too greatly as far as building companies are 1855

Monday, 26 April, 1982 concerned , you may be able to have public invest­ ment such as we were planning in the potash industry on the weste rn side of the province, a joint vent ure with resources. But I would not like to see the Prov­ ince of Manitoba star t back into a manufacturing type of program with govern ment corporations. The province, although many people in the Le gisla­ ture don't ag ree, was operat ing very well. The pers­ pectus that you put out had manufacturing increases which led the country. All of the industry areas that were being concentr ated on were moving up.

The Conference Board , as I mentioned, said that Mani­ toba would be thir d in Canada for the real product increase in the country, we would stand third. The employment until the end of probably the last three or four months of 1981 was holding up excep tionally well, and even at that point we weren't dropping to badly.

Since 1981, and with all the problems that come forth because of inter est rates and because of high inflation, which I know are serious, but we seem to be dropping much faster than we should be in the Province of Manitoba as far as industry development is concerned and as far as manufacturing develop­ ment is concerned . We also have got an Inte rest Rate Program that at the present time is not according to statistics, and I know ther e's a very small sample, going to be of benefit to as many people as the y probably expe cted the y would.

When I say that I mean ther e's an ex pecta­ tion out ther e from people in business that are cer­ ta inly have the feel ing that the govern ment is going to solve all their problems. As I said before in th ese Estima tes tha t the state ment sig ned by the Premie r was probably the most st upid stat ement I' ve ever read in my life. Anybody that signs an impossible state­ ment is not really thinking too clearly. So, Mr. Chairman, I don't have too much more to say than tha t. I know the Min ister is sincere in operat­ ing this department.

She's very sincere in her plans, but I would have to say tha t I have the feel ing that she doesn't really know what's going on out ther e. I have the feeling that we've got a social attitude or an opin­ ion which has developed by sitting around saying this is the way it should be and really not tak ing into effect as to the way it is. I don't think tha t the experi ment a­ tion tha t is going to be put forth by this department or by this govern ment to build the economy of the prov­ ince is anywhere realistic as to what we need at the present time. We dwelt on Alcan for quite awhile one day.

I sin­ cerely wish tha t my colleagues had been here with me, because the Minister and I had a very good debate on Alcan, which leads to the other larger projects which will create jobs. It's very disappointing, very disappointing, that ther e isn't more encouragement being given, or more hope being given to the people of Manitoba that the se projects are being worked on and will come to fruition for the benefit of Manitobans having jobs.

The answer tha t we keep getting from the Minister of Energy and I must say that I know this Minister is not in charge of these programs, the Minis­ ter of Energy is, but she is on the comm ittee and she is the Deputy Prem ier. So we have to say tha t the att i­ tude that is being brought forward th at these negotia ­ tions are st anding st ill and it's all right to have them standing st ill at the prese nt time, because markets are down is just not good enough.

I can't for the life of me see why negotia tions can't be carried out with Alcan to the point where they would say, yes, when we decide to move, when we decide to move and expand our capacity, that we must expand by about 4 percent every five years or so, that we will expand in Manitoba. I can't see any reaso n why that can't be negotia ted and laid to rest so that people in Manitoba will know that ther e has been a decision made for them to come here and build their refinery.

I can't, for the life of me, see why the negotia tions with the potash people have to be held back for the same reason, and IMC are goi ng to have to have a supply of potas h. They know tha t the y are going to need some, and here again, we seem to be sit ting back and ending up with a situation where the Saskatchewan Potas h Corporation is going to do most of the business in potash and Manitoba's potash is going to be sit ting in the ground. We were excited, and so were most of the people of Manitoba, to know the quantity we had and the quality we have and we should be starting to move. Mr.

Chairman, I would hope tha t the Power Grid is really coming to a situation where the negotia tions among the Ministers and among the govern ments are there. To have the Minister of Ene rgy tel l his commit­ tee, or tell us, that thi ngs had not been presented to Cabi net doesn't wash eithe r. All of the recommenda ­ tions that the Minister from Manitoba took to tho se meeti ngs, I know, went through Cabinet and for dis­ cussion, and when the final paper was agreed by the thr ee Ministers to present to Cabinet, ther e was a press release made in Manitoba by the Premier to say how close we were to it.

I don't, for the life of me, know why that cannot be moved along faster than it has been because under those circumstances and with Alcan, we can have an orderly development on the Nelson with 25 years of construction and a lot of work and the spin-off that approximately $3 billion would bring to our small industry, and I must say that the Minister of Economic Dev elopment, and I repeat the words of the Memb er for Brandon West to me, has got to make the se things move and make sure they'r e carrying on. I know you can't walk in with a baseball bat and hit them over the head.

I don't know how much good it would do, but I think that the Minister of Economic Dev elopment has to show some initiative in the se areas because she knows more than any other Min ister in this province the absolute need for some large projects for our smaller business to grow on. We will gr ow with projects outside of the province to some extent , but we have the opportun ity to have them grow in the province. We have the opportun ity to discuss with people what they spend within the prov­ ince when the y have the se projects going.

So I would only like to suggest that the Minister take hold, and press very hard to have these done. 1856 I didn't hear the Minister's speech on metric today, but I must say that I would not like to see us moving any faster than we have to on metric because it's a cost to manufact urers that is absolutely unnecessar y in many areas even though the present Federal Gov­ ernment has said that's what it's got to be. So, it would not be good to agree with the Federal Govern ment tha t this should be forced upon people or the busi­ nesses in Manitoba.

Let the businesses decide them­ selves if the y want to quote in metric and let them

Monday, 26 April, 1982 gradually move into it on their own. Specification of dates to do this is probably the worst way that it can be done. And the Tourism, I am very pleased that the tourism monies are available for promotion. I am sure the Minister has been given this chart that I used to carry with me all the time tha t showed very clearly that the millions when the y quit spending money on tourism in 1974, it dropped all the way down. In 1978, we started to do some promotion and advertising, spend­ ing more money, and you will notice that tourism went up.

While you weren't spending, the tourism went down; while you started to spend, the tourism went up as far as adver tising in the province, and I'm very pleased that the Exp enditures will carry on in Tour­ ism, and I sincerely hope that the Des ti nation Mani­ toba can be of benefit. It 's a beginning, $20 million is a drop in the bucket, to get the tourism going in the Province of Manitoba. If it's used properly, it will be a good start. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, I appreciate the thoug htful comments of the honourable member, and I, too, have appreciated the steady and thoug htfu l way that he has played the role of critic in the se Estimates hearings. I will sum up quickly from my point of view. I repeat that when we say we wish to have some influence on where industry will locate, we mean just that - influ­ ence - and not play a role of directi ng.

We intend to th row that into the negotiating package and not to go in with our minds made up one way or the other but, other thi ngs being equal, to play an active role to see whether there is within the economic feasibility of new companies some chance of them locating where the need is greatest in order to have a more balanced development in the province. With regard to our readiness to have more public corporations, we think where it can be demonstrated tha t the economic structur e of the province can be strengthened and made more matu re, that can be a good argument for a Crown corporation.

We don't believe in promoting Crown corporations just for their own sake, there must be a good rationale. We do also appreciate the role of the RD Cs in attract ing industry to their locations and, I think, want to move to improve tha t. The only change perhaps will be that wherever they can attract industry on their own, we'll congratu­ late them and have them go their way but where pub­ lic money is invest ed, we will atte mpt to play some kind of a responsible negotiating role with tho se industries.

We believe that the total package of eco­ nomic develop ment is better if there is both public and private invest ment rather than an emphasis on one or the other alone. It 's the mixed approach tha t will provide the most balanced growth and the grea­ test sti mulus to the economy of Manitoba. I do want to congratulate the honourable member in his working with the Enterprise Manitoba Agree­ ments to improve the manufacturing in Manitoba.

I do agree that ther e has been sign ificant gain in that sec­ tor and if it weren't that ther e had also been a drop off in population and decline in other sectors, I would say a job well done, but I repeat tha t it's our economic strategy to have both public and private investment because we believe that the mixed pattern will create the best sti mulus, both for manufacturing and for other sectors in the economy. In flation has been a serious problem. It is an accel­ erating or increasing problem and we're seeing the results of that today.

I can only state my belief tha t had there been a more mixed approach to the eco nomy in the previous four years, we might not have been in as bad a situation, but I do acknowledge that, some of that, we are not insulated from the other provinces of Canada or the other countries of the world, that we are not able to resist entirely that type of a process. We have put in our Interest Rate Program. I don't think we have ever tried to raise expect ations to make business think that this is a remedy for all their ills.

We have stated repeat edly that it's aimed to the smaller businesses; it is an emer gency-type program. Gov­ ernment certainly can't solve all the problems although it can do a better job in the long haul given an oppor­ tun ity to do some careful planning. The honourable member thought that I, as Minister of Econ omic Dev elopment and Tourism, was hung up on what should be and didn't pay enough atte ntion to what is and ther efore was not realistic. I submit that's not how I would describe my approach; I think I am realistic about what is, but I also have a sense of what could be.

Perhaps, way down the road, I also have an idea of what should be, but the way to get ther e I think is to focus on what can be tomorr ow and the next day and then carefully to innovate and learn as we go. I don't think you'll find us guilty of wild experi menta­ tion and irresponsible behaviour. I think instead you may be pushing us to go faster, rather than t he oppo­ site.

We do intend to move carefully and in a planful way. 1857 Get ting down to the mega projects, I know the hon­ ourable members wish that their idea of leadership in tha t field were mine and tha t the y can somehow goad me into going and changing the minds of all my col­ leagues. Well, I am an active and equal member of that com mittee, I listen to the analysis, I do my own read­ ing and I weigh the evidence that's put before me. I think the honourable members have tried to suggest that we've killed the Alcan project.

I think the y don't want to listen to what we have said, that it is sti ll very much a live project and that what we want to do is ensur e tha t the deal we make is not a se llout for now or the futu re for Manitobans, but a carefully nego­ tiated deal. That contin ues to be our approach. We think the environmental, social impact stud ies should be made prior to site ident ification and not after; tha t's a logical approach to that kind of devel­ opment and not the other reverse order.

I know the honourable member was hungry for a success of that project, but we be lieve that the responsible way to negotia te is from str ength and from a realistic assess ment of the cost and benefit to our own people. The same situation exis ts with pota sh. The honour­ able member was content to negotia te with a 25- percent ownership in that project. There is also a slowdown in the world potas h price situation and the Manitoba potash is not something that's going to go away. The world market price makes it somewhat less feas ible to develop it now; there are surpluses.

There are other ways to develop that potash and I assure the honourable memb er that we will be tak ing a responsi­ ble approach to that project.

Monday, 26 April, 1982 The same applies to the power grid; we are not willing to make a deal tha t we will reg ret in 1 O or 15 years. We believe that we must negotia te from a posi­ tion of knowing what the long-term effects are going to be. We would be most remiss if, 15 years down the road, we'd found that we had bought into a deal which gave the lion's share of the benefit to the provinces to the west of us and didn't give a fair return to Manito­ bans. I think that's the only sensible way to enter into negotia tions.

We are not inten ding to be greedy; we're not intend ing to make every situation completely - how should I say - we're not out for the moon, we're out for a good realistic and well balanced de al. I can understand the honourable members wanting the large projects. It's tem pt ing, I think, to look at Economic Dev elopment in terms of large projects; for one thing, it is much easier to focus on ttiem and see fall-out for smaller scale opportun ities. I think the Federal Government is facing the folly, I think, of having deve loped a similar approach.

I think they have hung their entir e economic st rategy on a reliance on large energy projects. If the y all went through, it could give a very sign ificant impet us to the country.

But if ther e were not another kind of planning going on that would look at the long term and ensure that when the initial impetus in tho se projects had disap­ peared that we had something in place that would produce a sta ble and sec ure economy for Canadians that we might find we had comm itted the folly of the previous decades of selling off all our resources as quickly as we could and relatively cheaply without ensuring adeq uate benefit and long-term st ability for Manitobans and for Canadians. Just a final comment about metri c.

There is a short­ term cost to manufactu rers to convert and if the Minis­ ter had heard my speech this aft ernoon, I think he would have recognized that I wasn't defending the method of implementa tion of the metric syste m. Ho wever, I was defending the benefit of it in the longer run. I think the very manufacturing industry that he wants me to promote and which I want to promote requires sophisticated te chnological change. We need people who can deal with computer lan­ guages; they change almost yearly and become more and more sophisticated .

Learn ing metric compared to learning new computer languages is child's play. There are many inherent gains in a development of ability to handle the metric system in our develop­ ment of trade and our moder nizat ion of industry, so I submit that the long-term gain surpasses the short­ term gain. Again, tourism advancement, yes, some gains can be secured from adver tisi ng, str ateg ic advertising I submit, rather than scatter gun advertising.

It's an industry that needs a variety of promotional activities though and I think when we've put together the Dest i­ nation Manitoba, all the program expenditur es, that we'll see a winning package. We will see the develop­ ment of some sign ificant major attra ctions, the upgrading of our facilities and, in general, be able to pump a lot of life into that very interesting and impor­ tant activity. I think I have cover ed all the points raised by the honourable member and I think I will conclude. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Prior to allowing the Minister to maintain her salary at the level that it is, I though t I might make a few comments. Actually, I am going to find it difficult to contain my enthusiasm for the events of this evening and to try and be negative about anything that may be happen­ ing right now in view of the results coming to us from our neighbouring province to the west.

Perhaps we will be get ting some additional tourism from the west as people start visiting Manitoba who may not feel comforta ble in Saskatc hewan in the future or perhaps the results of the improvement in the economy will manifest themselv es in new tou rist dollars being spent in Manit oba from Saskatchewan residents in the not too distant futur e. But I did wish to place on the record my own grave and serious concerns about this Minister's approach to the Economic Deve lop­ ment portfo lio in this govern ment.

It seems to me that all of us, on both sides of the Ho use, can very definitely support her desires to have a great many valuable social programs and to offer a high quality of life and all of those things tha t are necessary and requisit e for people to enjoy life in Manitoba. But it see ms to me tha t this Minister, des­ pite her protestat ion to the effect that all of her col­ leagues were concerned about all aspects of the government, not just Economic Dev elopment, doesn't understa nd the root problem and the source of con­ cern tha t tho se of us ha ve.

It's not in terms of her desire to achieve social change and to offer rnore social benefits for the many people in this pr ovince who ought to ex pect tho se benefits from the govern­ ment, but it is her lack of concern about creating a climate that will attract investment. Despite all of nice sounding state ments that she's made, Mr.

Chairman, I am very concerned that so many of the things that she stands for and her gov­ ernment stands for, and that she has indicated as being prioritie s will be disi ncentives for people to locate here whether the y be large investor s or whether the y be small investors, whether they be from without the province or from within the province, I don't believe tha t given the kinds of prioritie s that she has enunciated and the kinds of programs that she has set as being her top prioritie s that very many people will be attracted to take their savings, their invest ments, out of their mattresses, out of their shoes, or out of their Canada Sa vings Bonds and place them into creating economic develop ment and jobs in this pr o­ vince.

As an exam ple, I believe the figures are that this last issue of Canada Savings Bonds that the Federal Govern ment put out at some 19.25 or whatever per­ cent it was in that range att racted over $13 billion of money to be tied up. I might indicate that's not large, that doesn't represent large blocks of money, because people were limited to $15,000 a piece in purchases and even in small fam ily groupings, we'd be tal king in terms of having $45, 000 or $60,000 tied up in bonds, but that represented an increase, I believe, from just over $3 billion the previous year.

So there was an additional $10 billion of pote ntial invest ment money taken out of the gener al flow of invest ment in this country and put into Canada Savings Bonds. 1858 When this Minister indicates that she has concern about limiting profits because people are get ting too high a return and indicat ing that ther e aren't enough

Monday, 26 April, 1982 good corporate citizens around, and that ther e aren't enough people who are investor s and in business who are concerned about the social needs of the province, rather than the economic development of the pro­ vince, I think that those kinds of state ments and that kind of response is, if anything, going to discourage anybody from tak ing their money out of Canada Sav­ ings Bonds or, as I said, the mattr ess or the sock and put it into this province where we need it desper ate ly to create the kinds of economic developme nts, that the job creation activit ies that all of us want to see.

Because after all, in the final analysis, all of the social programs that this govern ment or any other govern­ ment has as its priorities are not possible to be accomplished or achieved without the returns of taxa­ tion from the economic growth that we have to have in this province. It just isn't good enough for this Minister to indicate that she and her colleagues have a wide and broad range of concerns and sense of responsibility. She was a little critical of us for saying that each of the Ministers must have been in a water-tight box and only looked after his or her own area.

The fact of the matter is that I don't think any of us were uncaring about the concerns of the other Ministers in terms of Health, Ed ucation and Social Dev elopment, but if each of us recognize that in a team everybody has one position for which the y are responsible and then is a backup in a team sense to all of the other s, but if somebody isn't playing first base and in fact is roam­ ing the field because the y have greater concerns about other aspects of their government's initiati ves, then you're not going to get too many people out at first base.

If somebody else is running around the diamond rather than pitching, then you're going to have concerns because all of the backup in the world doesn't help if somebody isn't playing their position. This Minister's position as Minister is as Minister of Economic Dev elopment and I can appreciate her desire to back up all of the others, but I think tha t it's very important for her to play her position first and fore most.

By running often and tal king more about the concerns that she and her government have about all the other aspects and, in effect, by defa ult leaving Economic Dev elopment floundering and I fear that it will be if there isn't some very strong motivation, announcement and expression of inter est made by this govern ment and this Minister, then we will not attract anybody nor induce anybody to take their money out of whatever sources the y now have it placed and put it into the kinds of job creating, eco­ nomic devel opment activities that we we need in this province.

There are many other thi ngs and perhaps ther e will be other opportun ities in the debate during the course of this Sess ion to place on the record the various things. The Minister has been very open and very honest about her feelings; the y are on the record in magazines, in newspaper

article s all over the province and beyond at the present time. I think that many of them are goi ng to come back to haunt her and haunt this government when it come s to attract ing eco­ nomic development. For instance, in one

article recently she's quoted as saying, "Capit alism is in its late stage" and that isn't helping Manitoba's eco­ nomic development. I think the negatives of the capi- tal istic system outweigh the positiv es, but while we're critics of it, we can't abolish it. What we want to find out is how we can transform it.

We ll, I think things like that are just simply going to grease the skids under those businesses that are already having difficulty operating here and force them out of business rather quickly despite all of the positive comments about govern ment involvement and govern ment initiatives in the business creation, because the creation of bus­ iness of good, sound economic business in this prov­ ince is st ill going to rest with the private sector, those so-called capitalists that the Minister doesn't seem to have much respect for.

I think that it will cost the tax payer considerably more money afte r this Min ister is thr ough with her economic development initiatives because the y will, in fact, drive out the very people who have built this province and this country. I will leave that on the record, Mr. Chairman, and say that we'll go off to some more pleasant act ivities this even ing and leave the Minister with her salary intact. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, we are engaged in a debate which brings to the problems tha t confront us different perspecti ves and I guess a difference sense; one, of how the system works; and two, of what we think are the legitima te goals of govern ment and of an economic syst em. I respect the honourable member for presenting us with the economic, politi cal philo­ sophy that he espou ses. I know he believes it holds together and that it offers the best prospects for sound growth in the years to come. As he well knows, I approach it from another angle.

I don't think I have ever said that capit alism doesn't have a role to play, but I have said th ere are some things it does not do or does not do very well. Therefore, a mixed approach is important and it is the role of govern ment to ensure that kind of a mixture is, in fact, in place. It is easy to lure people into believing tha t the y are going to benefit if ther e is economic growth. The actual fact, Mr. Chairperson, is that some people do and others don't.

We believe it's the responsibility of gove rnment to plan so that, if time s are tou gh, all share the load and no one has to suffer at the level of meeting their basic needs. When times are good , by the same token, all should benefit. Our approach to govern ing the province is not quite represented by the team play of a ball game where people special ize in different places.

There is a sense in which peo ple must special ize and play a special part on the te am, but a ball team is not exactly a Cabinet and a Cabinet such as we are operat ing recognizes that people bring different types of information because of their departmental responsibilities, but then the y sit down with the common philosophy and the common approach and decide which priorities should be fol­ lowed.

If the honourable member finds my willing­ ness to look at the connections and find an integ rated approach to the task of government, running off and commenting on everything under the sun, he's entit led to that perspective. 1859 In my opinion, the fact that I see the connected ness of the se different factors does represent the way I view govern ment and the way I view the task or the responsibility of being a part of that govern ment. I believe that Economic Dev elopment and Tourism are

Monday, 26 April, 1982 vitally connected to what my colleague s are doing in other department s and they give me the same respect and consideration. It's because our approach is an integr ated one that we perhaps are difficult for the Opposition to understand or appreciate, but that's their privilege. Our privilege at the moment is to put into action the philosophy as we understa nd it and that's what I have done my best to interpret and that's what I will do my best to promote in the months ahead.

As for whether we will attract invest ment, I'm find­ ing that invest ors, as I had said earlier in the proceed­ ings, are increasingly experien ced with investment on a global scale. They are meeting govern ments, states, with a wide range of political and economic approach. I don't find them thrown by the concept of planning; the y are used to it. I don't find them thr own by the willingness of our govern ment to lay everything on the table and to deal with them openly and from a position of strength and problem solving.

I will endeavour to continue with developing our approach and monitoring its effectivene ss as we go along. We are open to learning as we go and, as I said earlier, our approach will be cautious and careful and I expect we will have a much more thor ough approach to the problems next year, but we believe that ther e is str ength in that approach. The one position from which we won't swerve is tha t we believe that role of the govern ment is to plan and work for every member of the community to take

part in both the difficult things and the good things of the society, and that if we are dealing with an economic system that does that imperfect ly, then it's quite within our right and our responsibility to moderate that syste m. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Thompson. MR. ASHTON: I just have a few brie f comments, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to commend the Minister, in contr ast to the previous two speakers, for her new direction and particularly her new direction in regard to Economic Dev elopment, because I feel it's going to have a tremendous impact in constituen­ cies such as mine, the northern constituency of Thompson.

I think that the debate has been some­ what useful during the Estima tes on this particular department because it's clarified the disti nction which a lot of people in the north have always felt has existed between the two parties represented here to night, a dist inction they've always felt has existed , but I never quite had clarification perhaps until just recently. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, it isn't the inte ntion on this side to say any more. We have expr essed our opinions and we are not going to be voting against the Minister's Salary as obviously the gentlemen who walked in are suspecting.

Whene ver it's over; it's over. MR. ASHTON: Mr. Chairman, being a great believer in democracy, seeing the majority of the people want to - committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. Un der Exe cutive 1.(

a) Min­ ister's Salary- pass. Res olution No. 47 - Resolved tha t ther e be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $5,504,9 00 for Economic Dev elopment and Tourism for Executive for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1983-pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Continu­ ing with the Health Estima tes, Item No. 3.(

h) De ntal Services. The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT DES JARDINS (St. Boniface): On the salary, Mr. Chairman, just before 4:3 0, I was asked to give some information on the 89.5 staff man year that we have which is the same as last year. I already stated tha t ther e were two vaca ncies. Now the expla­ nation, that includes funds for 76 clinical field staff based in the regions to provide centr al public health services in ge neral and dental clinical servi ces to the Manitoba Children's Dental Program.

Of the se 76, 28 are dental nurses, 28 dental assistants, 8 dentis ts, a dental hygenist and the 11 support staff to provide equipment, repair, clerical and administrat ive servi­ ces. Then the central office staff of 9 staff man years provide directi on in administrative services to the overall program including: 1860

(1) The distri bution of the equ ivalent of 4.5 term staff man years to the regions to employ additional staff when available on a part-time basis to accomp­ lish program objectives;

(2) Purchasing, warehousing and distri bution of equipment and supplies; ·

(3) Admin isteri ng grants to agencies who provide dental services on behalf of the department;

(4) Revie wing claims of private dentis ts for both social allowance, health services clients and refe rred serv ices under the Man itoba Childr en's Dental Program;

(5) Consu ltation servi ces to public and private agencies and the gener al public. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): I thank the Minister for that information, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister advise whether there are any dental nurses working in the offices of private dent ists in the pro­ vince; tha t is, dental nurses who in fact graduated as dental nurses from the bursary course at Wascana College? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have made a survey to see where we stood and there were 80 dental nurses graduated from 1975 to 1979.

With the change in direction of the dental nurse program in 1979, a large number of the dental nurses were unem­ ployed . Some were emp loyed in private dental offices at a lower level of their trai ning as dental assistants. Other s left the field of dentis try and some left the province to seek employment. As of March, 1981, in Manitoba ther e are 60 nurses; 28 employed by the department, 17 employed in private dental offices, five housewives, three st udent dentis ts, three st udent hygienists, one tea ching at Community College and three employed in other occupations. There are 13

. - Monday, 26 April, 1982 Saskatchewan residents, three Alberta or B.C. resi­ dents and four unknown records for a total of 80. Non-Man itoba bursary nurses are now migrati ng to the province from Saskatchewan and are employed in both private and public programs, but we don't know how many of them are in Manitoba at this ti me. MR. SHERMAN: There was some concern, not long ago, Mr.

Chairman, that there was difficulty, particu­ larly in the West man region, delivering the Manitoba Childrens' Dental Program, that is the gove rnment administered program because the workload appar­ ently had been underest imated and the required or accepta ble level of staf fing with respect to dental nurses and dental assistants had not been met or maintained. Ha s that situation corrected itself?

The Minister has al ready advised me that ther e are only two vacancies in the staff man year est ablishment, but has the situation in West man region resolved itself insofar as workload and staff press ure is concerned? MR. DESJARDI NS: Mr. Chairman, the best we can say on that is tha t it's under contr ol at this time, but ther e is not too much leeway. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, this question may well be prematu re, but the Minister is no doubt con­ templating it anyway.

He'll be consideri ng all the ram­ ifications to expansion and ext ension of this program and to the natur e of the deliv ery syste m, whether it conti nues to be a complementar y system involving both the govern ment administration and the MD A administration.

Is the Minister at this point in time looking at the caseload and the workload that will be gener ated by the age expansion he's tal king about, and indeed , by the conti nuing age expansion that he's projecting for the immediate years in the near futur e from the stan dpoint of clinical staff in the Government Service, e.g. dental nurses in particular, is he looking at and consideri ng the possible requirements of more dental nurses in a retur n to the bursary program that was in place prior to 1980? MR. DES JARDI NS: Mr. Chairman, this placed me in a bit of an awkward position.

There's no doubt that we've made a study of it, we've been working quite hard and we have an idea what direction we want to go, but I have a commitment to the dental profess ion that we would not close any doors at this ti me. Now, I think I can say that we cert ainly intend to use some dental nurses. I would hope that we can get together and recognize the dental nurses, and agree on some of the work that they could do.

I think that might be a tall order. but I think if the Dental Association realized that the y are not the enemy, nobody is going to take anything away from them, if the y can realize that there is a role for the dentis t, and the dental nurses, I think that can be done. I'm optim istic tha t can be done. No w. as for what peo ple do, as I said. I would like to get away from one program administered and deli­ vered by one group. and then the other, I would sooner have a mixtur e. I would think that, right now.

I must be honest, we're looking at it in a direction of a mixt ure of the groups together, working toge ther, not one in the other, some thing else. We haven't got the details yet. I'm not going to run all over and hire and 1861 recruit all kinds of dentis ts at this ti me. I would like to, first of all, offer to the Dental Association to see what they can do, because, I think, they'r e not quite as busy as they were awhile back, and thi ngs are a little tougher in the economy.

I think ever ybody is noticing that, and that is one of the things we want to do, but I cert ainly feel that we will probably have to make some arrangemen ts. This is why we have to discuss, and we have to come with some ag reement, if possible, with the Dental Assoc iation as soon as possible. It might be tha t we will negoti ate with Saskatchewan again to have some pl aces in Wascana. MR. DEPUT Y CHAIRMAN, Phil Eyler (River Ea st): The Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I am not certain at the time that I was Minister that the twent y-some-odd or somewhat less than 20 dental nurses who were work­ ing in private dentis ts' offices were working up to the full capacity and full capability of their trai ning which they took at Wasca na College. In fact, I am under the impression that the y were doing perhaps 80 percent of what they were trained and qualified to do, but they were not doing fully and tot ally the work tha t they had been trained and qualified to do under their course at Wascana.

This, of course, was because of an unac­ cepability in so far as the Manitoba Dental Associa­ tion, the dental profess ion, was concerned with respect to unsupervised work in the mouth on certain particular procedures. Ha s that situation changed? I am simply seek ing to bring myself and the commit­ tee up-to-date on this, Mr. Chairman. Are any of tho se 17, I think it is, dental nurses who are working in private dental offices in Manitoba actually working to the full capacity or capab ility for which the y were trained as far as the Minister knows? MR. DES JARDI NS: Mr.

Chairman, I suspect that the Memb er for Fort Garry is right, although the practice, as he well knows, will change from one office to the other. There are some dentis ts that would not recog­ nize them at all and other s feel that the y are capable. I can't help but think tha t it was because of the way it happened, the batt le probably between our party and the Conser vative Party at the time tha t it was more of a confronta tion between the groups. I hope anyway that this was the case and we could remedy that when both groups realize that all we're asking them to do is work together.

That's why I said tha t I am opti mistic. I think that when that is done and I 'm ready, if we could reach an agreement so we wouldn't have to change every tim e there is a change of govern ment, although any government has a mandate to do what they want, but I would hope tha t we would esta blish something solid that we wouldn't have to do it and it wouldn't be one party favouring one group and the other, the other one. I think if we could do that and we're star ting with good inte ntion. We're not thinking we're going to go back to what we had in 1977, tha t's goi ng to be just the one program.

Now, ther e is a lot of hard work ahead of us. We've got to discuss with these groups. We've got to try to work together and I'm sure that we're not going to agree on everything, But if we can have this under­ stand ing, I think tha t a lot of that will go away. There

Monday, 26 April, 1982 won't be tha t fear tha t you're going to do away with the se people to tr y to do away with the opposition, that you'll have the whole program for yourself. I'm tal king about both sides now, which is the normal thing to do. So, if ther e could be that kind of unde r­ stand ing in defining certa in thi ngs clearly, I hope, maybe I'm an optimist, maybe I'm naive, but I think it can be done.

I know at one ti me, years ago, when they tal ked about dental nurses I'd been told, well, if we could have agreement on other things, I think tha t - I'm not going to say that the whole dental profession told me tha t, but this person was on the exe cutive at the ti me. I'm not going to give you any more so you can recognize - I don't want identify this person, but he told me that it would be very easy to recog nize a dental nurse providing there are certa in things. I hope tha t this will be done and I am sure tha t I'll have more to report during the Supplement ary Esti­ mates, because we can't wait forever.

Some of the se decisions will have to be taken soon, but I made a commitment to the past Pres ident that I wouldn't spell out the whole program this tim e to give him a chance, where I'm not against the wall and neither are they. We're going to make a real effor t to solve this, to try and please ever ybody. Well, first of all, to get the best program we can have. I'm sure that I'll be able to report a little more when I have to defend the Supple­ mentary Estima tes. MR.

SHERMAN: I certainly look forward with interest to the Minister's further stat ement on the subject at the time that he brings in his revised Estim ates for this program, Mr. Chairman. I wish him good fortune in the co-operation and the alliance that he's seek ing. Certainly, tha t was the objective of the previous government. The conclusion one can draw on this particular quest ion at this junctur e then, Mr.

Chairman, is that at the moment, the main challenge remains the reserva­ tion that the dental profession has with respect to accepting the unsupervised work of dental nurses in the mouth in particu lar sophisticated dental proce­ dures, a situation which is not permitted under the by-laws of their association at the prese nt time. It is one in which the Minister and his officials are working with the Dental Assoc iation now. MR. DESJARDI NS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that's cor­ rect. It's cert ainly one of the main things and, of course, the Dental Association are tal king about st andards.

That's what I meant and I'm sure the member read between the lines earlier, before the dinner hour, when I said tha t we were trying to achieve the best sta ndard possible, but not necessar­ ily the cadillac type, because we might not be able to afford it. So, I think this is some thing we'll have to look at toge ther and one of the other concerns also, and I hope that we'll be able to arrive at some th ing on this, is the utilization rate and the service in schools for at least part of the -y ou know, we're going to review the whole thing - at least for part of the students, maybe the youngest ones.

So, tha t's one thing that we're looking at also. I think those are the two concerns; recognizing the dental nurses for what the y can do, the type of super­ vision that the y could do, or the work they could do on their own and cert ainly providing the se services in the schools, in certain areas anyway. So, if we can solve those thi ngs, we're scot-free I think. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the initial Sto rey Repor t was primarily centred on the question of utili­ zation under the MD A plan as against the govern ment sponsored plan, the govern ment administered plan.

The seco nd Stor ey Study was really a study of the health quality of the children who had been tr eated in the program and the results from the point of view of the proced ures and treat ment given by the MD A, as compared to those administered under the Children's Dental Plan, administered by the govern ment. Does the Minister have any conclusions with respect to the seco nd Sto rey Repor t that he is prepared to make public at the present or in the near futur e?

The final study was completed some time ago and a report was prepared which was not made public because there was considerable subject mate rial that required to be discussed between the previous government and the Dental Assoc iation. I can tell the Minister, or he prob­ ably already knows, that it was our intention to hold a joint press conference at some point late in 1981, involving the Minister's office and the presence of the MD A to release the main conclusions and recom­ mendations of that report. Is he contem plating the same kind of action? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR.

DESJARDI NS: Unle ss I'm really forced to, I would sooner accept any remarks, which is cert ainly the right of my honourable friend to make at this time, because I want to preserve the good relationsh ip tha t we have at this ti me. I will state very flatly that I don't think that this report is that meaningful. I think that in many instan ces when you have fig ures like tha t you can make it say pretty well what you want. If I star t commenti ng on that, whoever you favour, the other side is going to dig in and I don't think it's conclusive at all. I can make that state ment.

If you want to favo ur it, if you want to favour it, you certainly can say quite a few thi ngs, good points. You could use it to foster your way of thinking and if you don't, you can do the same thing. So, at this stag e, it might be tha t all hell would break lose, that I might have to debate it in the public arena Sunday, but I don't intend to do it now. I'm not going to base myself that much on some of the work.

It's a new concept that I want to go, not compare one to the other and I think it would not serve any productive or any positive -what I would have to say, one or the other group would find it to be negative. I don't want to take the risk of muddy­ ing the water, of spoiling the relationship at least that we have in the initial stage. So, it's not that I didn't look at it very carefully, tha t I didn't read it, that I haven't any opinions on that, but I have n't got any opinions that would want me to choose between one or the other.

I would much sooner work together on the one plan, so if the committee doesn't mind -cer tai nly the mem ber could make a state ment tha t he wishes; it's not up to me to give him permission, but I perso nally would choose not to comment on it at this time. 1862

• - - Monday, 26 April, 1982 MR. SHERMAN: I accept that, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the MDA plan zeroed in, in part, on the number of remote communities in the north tha t had previously not had dental service available, cer­ tainly on a regular basis, to school children and young children and the govern ment plan, the MCDP sim­ ilarly covers some remote communities, particula rly the bay line communitie s.

I presume that those servi­ ces into those remote northern communities like Cranberry Portage and Coal Lake, Sherridon, to name a few and then over on the bay line side, Cor­ morant, Jenpeg , Pikwitonei and communities simi lar to tho se is st ill in place.

I presume tha t the service to the 30 school divisions, that we have referred to in earlier discussion today, includes the service into tho se remote communitie s which don't re ally qualify as school divisions, but nonethe less have always been part for the past several year s of the service and have in fact been recognized as among the most important and esse ntial parts of the service because th ose communities suffer the disadvantage that many southern communities do not suffer. That is, gen er­ ally, an inadequacy of this kind of service.

So, I am assu ming that ther e has been no change or reduction in that service into remote northern communities? MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Fli n Flon): The Honour able Minister. MR. DESJ ARDINS: Yes, there are no changes ther e. The Dental Health Services will deliver the program to Cormorant, Jenpeg, llford, Pikwitonei, and Thicket Portage and the Dental Association to Pelly Trail, Bounda ry, Pine Creek, school division and school district of Sprague. Those are the ones that were tu rned to the MDA on Sept ember 1st, 1981 and ther e's no contemplati ng any change.

These are the areas th at I mentio ned earlier where there's more flexibility because of age. You're going to go there and ther e is someb ody else tha t you are going to see, even an adult. I think that would be done. Where we have problems is the grant that we make to the Swampy Creek Tribal Council because we've had recruiting a dentist for that area, so that's the problem. The other s are working quite well. MR. SHERMAN: The MD A includes, for exa mple, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, Snow Lake, Gillam, Cran­ berry Portage, etc. Is that correct? MR. DESJ ARDI NS: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I don't think that the committee would want me to enume rate all the school divisions, but there are six northern com­ munities. I think you were zeroing in on the northern communitie s and tha t's the Manitoba Dental Associa ­ tion. It is Gillam, Fronti er, Leaf Rapids, Cranberry Portage, Coal Lake, Sherr idon, Snow Lake and Lynn Lake and the school district of Sprague. MR. SHER MAN: Mr. Chairman, one of the ob ject ives of the previous government; certa inly one of my objecti ves in working with the MD A, working thr ough the province's Director of Dental Services, Dr.

Cliff McCormick, and other officials in the department with the MD A was, because of the objective of get ting more dental professionals into rural communities in 1863 Man itoba, we concluded in discussions with the MD A tha t involvement of the MDA in the Childrens' Dental Health Prog ram would provide an incentive for grad­ uates of our dental college here and indeed estab­ lished pr act itioners to partici pate in the delivery of service into rural and northern communities and indeed in some cases even encourage the est ablish­ ment of practices in rural and urban communities.

There was some progress made in that respect, par­ ticu larly in southe astern Manit oba in the area of Sprague and the Vita region. Could the Minister report to the committee on the status of that kind of an objective? I'd like to ask him perhaps just a couple of specific questions tha t he might add ress, Mr . Chairman. One, can he give the commit tee an ide a of the size of the graduating class this coming June from the Manitoba Dental College? How many dentis ts and how many dental hygienists will be graduating?

In the last few years, it seems to me it's run in the neighbor­ hood of 30 to 35, perhaps 22 denti sts and 10 hygen­ ists. How many of them have indicated thei r intention of sta ying in Manitoba to practice? How many of them have indicated or demonstr ated an inter est in estab ­ lishing in a rural Man itoba community? Is the MD A succeed ing, in fact, in attrac ting some of its member­ ship and particularly some of the young graduates to rural pract ice in Manitoba? Would the Minister have that kind of information available from his officials, Mr. Chairman? MR.

DES JARDINS: I can answer part of that or tr y anyway. There are approx imately 25 to 30 dentis ts tha t should be graduati ng, and 20 to 25 dental hygen­ ists. Apparently they're not committi ng the mselves, cert ainly not at this time. I can tel l the committee this, I can share this informa tion with the comm ittee, tha t in discus sing with the Dental Assoc iation or their repre­ senta tiv e tha t I wanted to start from the start, not necessarily tha t we're going to go out and try to recruit people and put them on salary. I have no hang­ up on tha t at all.

If we could do both, if we can help somebody in est ablishing a pract ice and then give him as much of the work that can be done with some protect ion, some assurance that this will be done - we can't just put all our eggs in one basket - we're ready to do that. There's no hang-up that we want definitely to control and have people on salary. No w that is one thing that they will look at.

Another area also, espe cially in the city, and I could never understa nd how that couldn't be done if ever y­ thing else is, except I would hope and I think I might convince them that it's a lot easier for one person or two, to displa ce one person or two, to say fine, I'm goi ng to work an afte rnoon or so many hours a week in a school instead of bringing all the schools and having the parents bring all the se schools, espe cially the younger children, so that's one of the thi ngs I ask them to report to me to see if that could be done.

Then also besides that where we could make it worthwhile, not this year but probably next year or the following year, we intend to follow with another elec­ tion promise and that is to provide work and help with the purchase of dentur es for the senior people. Now, I might say at this time that, and I think that the commit­ tee will accept this as good news, we're not just look- I

Monday, 26 April, 1982 ing at the situation where we'll help in the purchase of dentur es. We think this would be dangerous because we don't want to be in a position where we are going to have created an incentive for people to have thei r teeth removed so they can have false tee th. So I think that we will do a little more than that. We've asked the dental profess ion to look at that. So that might be another area where we might be able to help somebody get est ablished in the rural area or a place where normally they might feel there's not enough work.

So we hope to work very closely with the dental profession on tha t and, as I say, there is no hang-up that we must have everybody on salary at all. It won't be fee-fo r-service for the work that the y do for us. It will be on sessional indemnities -(l nterjection)­ Yes, and of course any referra ls, tha t would be on fee-for-serv ice. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, is there any volume of dent al equipment that was purchased by the gov­ ernment for the MCDP a few years ago that's stored in any schools or warehouse facilities around the prov­ ince that is not being utilized at the present ti me? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, my information is tha t yes, this is the case. There are some in schools and there are some that are stored away in warehouses. MR. SHERMAN: Would the govern ment consider a program of making that kind of equipment available to young graduates who might want to get estab­ lished in rural practice on a reduced cost, or interest­ free loan basis so as to help offset the very formidable cost of establ ishing oneself with equipment in a new pract ice? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I've had no trou­ ble with tha t.

I would sooner see it used that way than stored away, but I couldn't make this commitment at this time until we know exac tly how the program will be delivered . We wouldn't want to do that and have to go and purchase more equipment. I imagine that the cost is much higher at this time. We would have to find out if it is needed in the program. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (h )(1)- pass. 3.(h)

(2) Other Expe nditures the Honour able Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: I just have a couple of questions on this, Mr. Chairman. Und er Other Expen ditures, we have a breakdown of the funding as it is disbursed to the Manitoba Dental Assoc iation, to the Churchill Health Centr e, the Swampy Creek Tribal Council, the St. Amant and for the continuation of the Fluoridation Program. Could the Minister give me that breakdown in dollars please, give us I mean, the committee? MR. DESJARD INS: I'm trying to get the information.

I imagine that the question was both years in compari­ son, or maybe would the member help me. Ha s he got last year's book? Wel l, you give me last year and I'll give you this year. Mr. Chairman, the Manitoba Dental Association for this year is $1,907,200; Churchilll Health Centre, 65.3; it was exactly the same amount to the Swampy Creek Tribal Council; 16.5 to St. Amant Centre; and 10 for the contin uation of the Capital In centive Branch for fluoridation equipment. MR. SHERMAN: Okay, do you want last year's? MR. DE SJARDINS: Oh, excuse me.

I should have included also 753.9 for the operation of our own, the existi ng program under the Manitoba Children's Den­ tal Pr ogram, and ther e doesn't seem to be that much difference. That would be 4,577, 300 compared to the total of last year which was 4,257, 000, so ther e is a 320,000 difference. MR. SHERMAN: 753.9 is the government adminis­ te red program for this year? MR. DE SJARDINS: Excus e me, I'm told that the actual cost last year, not what was voted , this 2, 564 that you see in front of you was voted but the actual cost was 2, 023, 100 for Other Expend itures.

So it was underspent by close to $500,000.00. MR. SHERMAN: Righ t. In the 753, is the cost of the government run program for this year? MR. DESJARDINS: 753.9, right. MR. SHERMAN: Okay, thanks. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (h)( 2)-p ass; (h) -pass. That completes the items to be consider ed under Res olution 76, ther efo re

be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $41,2 73, 800 for Heal th, Community Health Servi ces for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983. MOTION presented and carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Continuing with It em No. 6, Mani­ toba Health Services Commission - the Honour able Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, as we agreed we would like to go line-by-line. We' ll start with line 1, Admin istration. Then, we'll skip the next th ree lines and we'll go to Pharmacare, which is line 5; Amb u­ lance Program, line 6; Northern Patient Transporta­ tion Prog ram, 7.

When we've finished this, we will adjour n for the night. We won't look at Personal Care, Home Hospital or Me dicare this even ing. MR. CHAIRMAN: If that's the understanding, does the Minister care at this time to give an open ing state ment on Administration or are ther e questions? That being the case, does the Minister wish to make a state ment at this time or are just prepared for quest ions? MR. DESJA RD INS: No, not really.

I can't direct all the members of the comm ittee, but the Health Critic for the Opposition on this folder that I sent this afte rnoon, I think tha t probably we could deal with Administra­ tion on th is. I has what was voted last year under Adminis tr ation, what we're asking for, the increase, the stor y on staf f man year also is included in the folder, the folder that I sent this afternoon. 1864

• - I • Monday, 26 April , 1982 While the members organize, I have a short state­ ment that I will make then. The Manitoba Health Ser­ vices Commission has the legislative responsibility to plan, organize and develop throughout the province a balanced and integr ated system of hospital and related health facilities and services commensurate with the needs of the residents of the province, subject to the approval of the Minister of Health. The Comm ission's program responsibil ities include the Ho spital, Medi­ cal, Personal Care Ho me, Pharmacare, Ambulance and Northern Patient Transportation Programs.

The Manitoba Health Commission's net program costs for 1982-83 total $828, 806,500.00. Hosp ital costs are the largest expen ditur es of the Comm ission representing 59.8 percent of the net program costs; Medic al costs represent 21. 7 percent and the Perso nal Care Home Program, 15 percent. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister supplied me with a state ment of this year's administrative costs breakdown.

That is the projected breakdown for 1982-83 including the amounts to be requested for the specific categorie s ranging through the whole range of administrative responsibilites and their compari­ son with 1981-82. I don't have any questions on tha t list, Mr. Chairman. One of the biggest increases, of course, comes in the area of postage and exp ress and that's self­ explanatory to anyone living under the efficiency of the Canadian Postal Service and the cost of it. There is a slight increase in the amount being bud­ geted for professional consultants.

I am wondering whether that's a sum that has been fixed on the basis of already having engaged professional consultants for specific projects or whether tha t is a calculated guess? The Comm ission is seek ing $340,000 for pro­ fess ional consult ants as against $331,000 in 1981-82. Not a significant increase, Mr. Chairman, but I guess the question would be, was the $331,000 spent in 1981-82 and is the $340,000 being requested for 1982- 83 a fixed amount or a calculated guess? MR. DESJA RD INS: I would say, Mr. Chairman, that it's an educated guess at this ti me.

I think that the explanation is that the quantit ative inspector is also for the capital program that I will announce tomo rrow. Those are included in the re. I think the rest is. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, MR. DES JARD INS: Last year on th is, there were pro­ fess ional consu ltant - there were 308 spent last year. There were 331 vot ed, the 308 were asking for 9- not overspent. It's a little more than tha t, but because, as I say , of the prog rams and tha t, the rest is pretty well the same. MR. SHERMA N: Mr.

Chairman, by profess ional con­ sultants, does the Commission mean quantit y sur­ veyors and vice versa? MR. DES JARD INS: There is provincial auditors. Last year, the re were 40 voted , we're asking for 41; quantity surveyors 264, we're asking for 250. Now, the vote in 1865 1982-83 voted and refunded surveyors comprised of Health Sciences Centr e Phase One, 140,000; Dau phin 40, six for rural route project 37, one Winnipeg Project 25, miscellaneous stud ies eight. I'm trying to find out if we spent the full 64 last year and I'm told, yes.

The medical assessor is the same thing, 13,000; Dent al Re view Commit tee, we go from three to four; Medical Manpower Commit tee and Medical Appoi nt­ ment Review Committee ten, the same ten and ten; chiropractic, optometric review, nothing this year; it was 1,000 last year, but the main increase is special project stud ies, etc. There was noth ing last year; ther e's 22, 000 this year. That's where the big differ­ ence is. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister refresh my memor y and advise me whether the $50,000 voted for publicity in 1981-82 was spent or not.

If it wasn't spent, it was not because I did n't believe in it. I can't recall whether we followed through with that commitment or not. MR. DESJA RDI NS: The information that I have, I'm told is th at very little of that has been spent, but with the change th at we will have this year, espe cially with the ... I'm sure the Minister intended to spend his last year, that's about the only thing I can say to that. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, in the staff man years cate gory of administration, I note that the Commis­ sion is asking for an overall increase in staff man years of 11, requesting 697 as against 686.

In the divisional breakdo wn, th ere is no request for any increase in the Construc tion and Operation Planning Division, 22 SMY s in 1982-83 and 22 in 1981-82. Can the Minister confirm that there st ill is a requirement for, and an ongoing search for, at least two personnel in Con­ stru ction and Operational Planning and that th ose positions have not yet been filled and that this is the reason why there is no requested increase in SMYs for that division? MR. DE SJARDI NS: Mr. Chairman, yes.

I should say for the adver tising in the 50,000, one of the thi ngs mostly tha t we'll use this money with is we're tryi ng to get better records as to the population, wher e we'd want a spot announcement asking people to register and so on. I think the larger part of the money will be spent ther e. As far as the planning, out of tho se 22, 12 of them are construction. That will change. Then, 10 planning; ther e are eight positions filled and two th at aren't filled. The two that aren't filled will be tra ns­ ferred. As I've said, we're trying to co-ordinate the planning for both, not the construction, the other.

I think th ose two will be transferred to the new planning division that we're trying to organize in the depart­ ment, and two of th