Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 27 (30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 27 2:30p.m., Friday, March 5th, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Lake. THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA 2:30 p. m. , Friday, March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE 689 MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 14(c)(1)--pass. The Honourable Member for Rock MR . EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I think the Member for Birtle-Russell had a question before lunch. I wonder if the Minister would care to answer it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would take this opportunity to answer another question that was put by, I think, the Member for Pembina, and that had to do with how much milk was shipped to Saskatchewan and at what price.

And the answer I have from the board is that we had shipped 1,400,000 pounds, sold at regular board prices. There were no discounts involved. The board absorbed the transportation costs however. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 14(c)(1)--pass; (2)--pass; Resolution 14(

d) Agri cultural Products Marketing Commission. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I note that there was no moneys expend ed for this item and as it reads, "Agricultural Products Marketing Commission," I wonder if the Minister could explain just what that item is all about and the reason for that amount of money. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, actually there was an amount of $36,000 incorpo rated in the estimates of last year in a different area, which was the Feed Grain Marketing Commission at that time, but we no longer have the Feed Grain Marketing Comm ission as such, that has been transformed in to the Agricultural Products Market ing Commission, and that commission is involved in the handling of the black bean contracts and the Grassland beef contracts, where they're involved in purchasing beef and then handling the sale of it to institutions, and the retail outlets who participated in the promotion program last year and will continue to do so this year.

So that is what the nature of those expenditures are. MR. Ell-TARSON: Mr. Chairman, it's interesting to hear the comments from the Minister in answer to that where the Coarse Grains Commission was declared defunct; I don't know just how long ago but quite some time ago, he mentioned the Coarse Grains Commission . . . MR. USKIW: It's not defunct. MR. EINARSON: Well, I stand to be corrected then, Mr. Chairman, he says that it's still active, it's still there, but it's not performing the function that it was originally intended.

I'd like to know then, just to refresh my memory, how many are on that board of the Coarse Grains Commission, are they still being active, are they still being paid for the jobs that it was originally intended? The comments open up an area here which I think it is important that we should have some information on. MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the nature of the Feed Grains Marketing Comm ission, or at least the activity with respect to feed grains had been narrowed down to that of information to the trade and to the farm community.

They put out bulletins and do a bit of research, and things of that nature, but they're no longer involved in the regulatory program that they were involved in up until about a year ago. MR. EINARSON: Well then, Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the Minister doesn't consider this a duplication of services, because as far as coarse grains are concerned, the farmers can listen to the farm broadcasts every day at noon from Monday through to Friday, and there is an invaluable amount of information that is given to the farmers through that organization.

I fail to tmderstand then why the Coarse Grains Commission is still being classified as active because I see no useful purpose for it then. I think there's a duplication here, and I would like to ask the Minister to give us a better clarification as to really why that should still be there. MR . USKIW: Well again, I thought I'd indicated to the Member for Rock Lake that the activities of this body have been enlarged.

Well, let's put it this way, they have been reduced with respect to the activities relating to feed grains, but enlarged to the extent that they've added the Black Bean Program and the Beef Program so that

690 March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) • • while the Commission Board does not meet more than once or twice a year, the office and the manager and the administration are intact and are fairly busy. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 14(d) --pass; Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $630,500 for Agriculture -- Pass. Resolution 15, Technical Services: Regional Division: Salaries (1) $62,200. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, in regard to the Technical Services where it says "Provide technical services to farm industry; includes agricultural engineering serv ices, rural water services, farm machinery board, agriculture and entomology." I would like to dwell on the agricultural engineering aspect of this resolution, Mr. Chair man, and when I read in the report, and I'd like to quote a portion of it, ''Dollar sales of new farm machinery in Manitoba were up by 16 percent in '74 as compared to '73. The number of tractors and combines sold was about equal to the sales of the previous year.

Prices increased however between 25 and 35 percent. Supplies of both new and used machines were short and the desire for more and larger equipment exceeded the real need in some cases as farmers tried to make advantage of their solvent cash situation to reduce their hours of work. " Does that indicate then that the implem(t.."lt companies have allocated larger machines into the Province of Manitoba probably knowing that they weren't necessary or would not be used, and while the increase of machinery has not been forthcoming the prices have been.

I'm wondering if there's any relevance to the Farm Machinery Board, and I go back to the time when the bill was introduced and the farm machine companies were concerned about the warranty that was changed in the Act by this government from two to three years. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether it wouldn't be advisable to pass 8(a)(1) n.nd (2) and then get down to (

b) where the subject matter is now being debated. We're dealing with Regional Division which is a field staff in each region in (a)(1) and (2) and the member is now relating to items under (b). Lake. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution (a)(1)--pass. The Honourable Member for Rock MR . EINARSON: Yes, there's an increase here in way of salaries. I'm wondering could the Minister explain whether that's an actual increase in salaries or are there new additional people to the department. MR . USKIW: No, that's just the normal increase, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Other expenditures 19,000--pass.

The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, could we get some explanation of the increased "other expenditures" on this item? MR. USKIW: That's only $2,000 there, Mr. Chairman; that's a regular increase, there's no significance attached there. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass; Resolution 15(b)

(1) Technical Services: Salaries 366,700. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINA!RSON: Yes, well, Mr.

Chairman, if it's necessary to repeat the comments that I just made in regard to the Technical Services Branch, and I'm wonder ing whether or not the Minister has had any complaints or reports back from the effects of the changes in the Machinery Act, whether this had any effect on the large machine companies putting farm machines - I've often wondered about this - putting farm machines into other provinces than coming into Manitoba, has this been a detriment to the dealers of this province insofar as machinery is concerned? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, we have not had any indication of that kind of thing happening so I really have no comment. I have not been apprised of any situation in that regard. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 15(b)

(1) The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I think it would apply on the same portion of this resolution and the Farm Machinery Board. I'm given to understand, Mr. Chairman, that under the Prairie Agricultural Machinery Institute that was brought about by the

March 5, 1976 691 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. EINARSON cont'd) .•••• three western provinces, we have the main factory, or that aspect of the industry is in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba as I understand are smaller branches, and I'm wondering could the Minister •.. MR. USKIW: Have we passed (b)(1) because the Member is now debating (b)(2)? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we're still on (b)(1). (b)(1)--pass; (b)

(2) The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, what are the findings, and how far have we progressed under the Prairie Agricultural Machinery Institute, whereby the testing of farm equipment is taking place, and could he indicate to us what effects are developing from this whole project, insofar as Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta are concerned? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I can indicate to the Member for Rock Lake that the main centre at Humboldt, Saskatchewan will be open some time early this spring, where I've been already invited to a ribbon-cutting ceremony.

The Lethbridge facility I believe is under way, and the Winnipeg one is under way to the extent that a site has been chosen and I believe a tender has been issued, so that there is likely to be a con tract for construction in Portage la Prairie for a Manitoba satellite facility to that institute some time in the course of the next weeks or a couple of months. I suspect, well I think I am right, that a decision will be made with respect to a tender within a matter of weeks. MR. CH AIRMAN: Resolution 15(b)(2)--pass; Resolution 15(c)

(1) Salaries 175,100--pass; Other expenditures (2) 302,200--pass; Canada-Manitoba FRED Agreement: Salaries (1) 36,400--pass; Other expenditures 53,500--pass. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering is there any in this area here ••• We're talking about the studies on water supplies and the connection with the FRED Agreement, and the services that are being granted to farmers in the Province of Manitoba.

I wonder if he could elaborate on the kind of service it is being given (1) to try to locate supplies of water where farmers have dugouts and there's a shortage of supply, could he elaborate somewhat on that policy. This is something that I think is of interest and concern when we talk about increase in production of livestock. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Rock Lake is really dealing with the FRED Program here and that's in the Interlake only. MR. EIN�RSON: Mr. Chairman, then is this the Interlake area?

Could he indicate - I suppose it could be applied to other parts of the province - that if farmers were to take this upon themselves at their own expense to acquire those services, then I'd like to know what success are we having in the Interlake country then as to those services. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, in the Rural Water Services we have ARDA which covers all of Manitoba, and at this point we're now dealing with FRED which is particular to the Interlake. The programs are identical, and I'm not sure if I have the statistics on it. Page 57. No, I don't have Page 57.

In terms of ARDA grants, which is other than the Inter lake area, we have $217, 200; in terms of the FRED Program we have $40,000 in the Interlake, $40,000 just for the Interlake, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 15(d)(2)--pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,432,300 for Agriculture--pass. Resolution 16 Community Improvement: (a)

(1) Regional Division: Salaries, 798,200--pass; Other expenditures, 358, 500--pass; (

b) Community and Family Programs Branch: Salaries, 146, 600--pass; Other Expenditures, 309, 500--pass. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Cha irman, I wonder if the Minister could give us an idea of what these two items are all about. The information provided in the sub-heading says, "Provide information, opportunities and financial support to rural people in Agro Manitoba for their participation in social and economic development; includes regional and district agricultural offices, agricultural society grants and educational activities." I'd be inte�ested in knowing just to what extent this item provides for grants to agricultural societies.

692 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. March 5, 1976 MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairman, this involves the Agricultural Extension Centre in Brandon. The members would be familiar with the complex there where we provide for instructional courses and workshop activities, and so on. Then of course it also is the

section where some grants are paid to various associations in this province like the Metis Federation, Women's Institute, Centre for Community Studies, that's a :Brandon Research Program, Manitoba Vacations Association, and things of that nature are covered in that program. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 16 (b)

(2) Othere expenditures. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate how much is available to the Women's Institute? MR . USKIW: $20,000, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: Can the Minister indicate if that is an increase or a decrease from the previous year ? MR. USKIW: Unchanged from last year, unchanged from last year. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 16(b) (2)--pass; (

c) Agricultural Societies 456,600 - The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could list those agricultural societies and the classification that they're in, that they're in receipt of grants under this particular item. MR. USKIW: I'm not sure that I can be that extensive, Mr. Chairman. We have a whole host of ag societies in the (a) (

b) and (

c) classes. They must number in the order of 58, all told. MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that the Minister may not want to put all that on the record at the present time. At the same time I would appreciate having that information if he could provide it for members of the committee at some time. MR . USKIW: . . Mr. Chairman. Members would appreciate that this also provides for our share of the deficit on the operations of the Keystone Centre, as well as the Austin Museum. Those are all embodied in that appropriation. MR .

JORGENSON: Is the Minister telling me that these budgets are operating with deficits? I think the Minister will note that the Manitoba Stampede does not operate on that basis. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the Member for Morris would appreciate that when the Keystone Centre agreement was entered into as between the Province of Manitoba and the City of Brandon, the agreement provides that we approve the budgets of the operation, and to the extent that there is a deficit we share equally 50/50 with the City of Brandon.

So that is was envisaged at that time that there would be deficits, and of course there have been every year since it's been operating. MR . JORGENSON: So, I wonder if the Minister would advise the House that in the unlikdy event that the Morris Stampede ever operated with a deficit, that he would be prepared to share that as well. MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the member's comment excepting that it is not analogous. The Brandon Exhibition would be analogous to the Morris Stampede, and of course we are not involved in any different way there than we are with respect to the Morris Exhibition.

But the Keystone Centre is a complex, something like the Winni peg Convention Centre, it services the public and the private sector at some loss, which the public picks up. MR . JORGENSON: Could the Minister explain then, the Austin Exhibition, just how that compares with the Manitoba Stampede. MR . USKIW: With respect to the Austin Museum, I re mind members opposite, that that is enshrined in legislation as the Manitoba Agriculture Museum, the one and only so to speak, for which provisions were made for financial support. It obviously cannot be self-supporting.

I am pleased to indicate to members opposite, however,

March 5, 1976 693 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) • . . • • that after having visited the Austin Museum, my deputy on one occasion and myself on another, that, and others, we were very much impressed with what has happened in that area, and the people that have volunteered to put that together have done a splendid job.

One of the observations we have made though in that respect, was that it is becoming somewhaL of a larger operation that can truly handle on a some what voluntary basis, that there has to be more commitment there from somewhere, and to that extent we have substantially provided funds, new funds, for the operation of the Austin Mu seum.

I believe we were able to find it an additional $20,000 in last year's budget, which were unused under the Ag Society Program, and which we allocated to the Austin Museum, and in these estimates I think it is about $28,000 are committed towards the Austin Museum to help them along in the good work they are doing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, it's a subject matter and I am most interested, and I am wondering how close the Iiiinister works with the Department of Tourism and Recreation because, you know, the Morris Stampede, the Swan River Stampede, and most of the country fairs do bring tourist dollars in some cases and in other cases just the local people. But tourism being what it is and it's rising today where it is one of the most viable industries that we have in the country, I wonder what liaison is taking place between his department and the Department of Tourism and Recreation.

We can speak of the Austin Museum or other facets of it, or in fact is the day coming. that the agricultural fairs, and we have some pretty interesting ones in the area I represent, should we not be working more closely together to build them up, because they are very important to the social life, to the cultural life of our community, and rather than the subsidy dollars that the Minister is talking about Austin, that that come back and not only on the agricultural facet but wecomein and provide these dollars at the level of the Honouratle Minister of Tourism and Recreation and Cultural Affairs. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 16(c)--pass. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I am just trying to determine where we are at in our estimates. Well obviously the Ministry does communicate, sometimes not always in agreement, sometimes in agreement, but there is that kind of liaison at the ministerial level. I'm not sure what specific connection there is at the bureaucratic level with respect to the two departments and how tourism relates specifically to the programc of the agricultural societies, ans so on, but it is a point worthy of notation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin.

MR. McKENZIE: It is very difficult for us in opposition to go through the estimates and find even if in fact the Minister of Agriculture has met with the Minister of Tourism, but it is a point that's certainly worth consideration the fact that the Minister would say that he has met with the Minister of Tourism and Recreation to ensure and enshrine that these country fairs are on a continuing basis, and that this philosophy which is now I guess a change from the Minister's attitude of a few years ago when he said there were some of them were going to be phased out.

I think we can build on that philosophy and that will provide a vehicle for, specially the ••• Well as an example, the Dauphin Ukrhlnian cultural people of having their three day in conjunction, and likely in Dauphin some day in the future that could run on to maybe a week of the fair and the cultural people meeting and the tourism, and it will draw tremendous numbers of people, which it is already doing today.

I think because of our Province being what it is that certainly the Ukrainian people are drawn over from all parts of the world and North America for the cultural event, but the agricultural show should be some place in conjunction with that event and this way I think will draw many mor3 tourist dollars into our co\mtry than we are today. I would like the Minister's comments if he's prepared now to .•• It's long-range planning that I'm thinking of that maybe that the day is here when he should sit down with the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs and we goon it jointly. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I don't think I need the admonitions of the Member for Roblin. I think that governments always do; they have to discuss things jointly together for the benefit of all.

694 March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont.'d) •.•.• With respect to ag societies tying in with things such as the Dauphin Festival, that is something that is of a more local nature. The department does not run the affairs of the ag societies, they merely provide grants to ag societies, and I would be far from the point of presuming that I could tell them just what they should do and when they should be doing it; that is a matter for the local people to get together on. MR. McKENZill: Well Mr.

Chairman I find that very interesting when we come from Crocus Foods to this item, and the Minister now is backing off, and he says that he is not going to put any input into that type of • • . In the Crocus matter and the marketing boards he is providing all of the input, and on this matter he backs off, and he said he is not interested, doesn't want any part of it, and he's not interested. In fact as I read his remarks, that he is basically not sure that these agricultural societies are going to be able to function very much longer. Well he said this two or three years ago.

He was going to change the whole plan, change the whole structure, and luckily the Agricultural Society had a lobby, it was strong and of very sound people for the rural areas, and he backed off. Now he's not going to do that that way. I just suggest, and I think it is a matter of great concern to the rural people of the province especially, that he is the Minister with the input, and my gosh even in your Dauphin office today, my God what a staff you have got there man. I remember the days when there was two ag regs and two secretaries, or three, in the Dauphin office. How many have you got there today?

About 60, in fact, --(Interjection)-- No, he's got so many there today that the old ag reps are still there and these people are coming in, these new staff are coming in every day ,and they don't know if these are customers, or farmers, and they've never been introduced, or they don't have any letter telling them that they are coming. Mr.

Chairman, I wonder how the Minister can communicate with the agricultural societies when he is not even sending directives in there to tell the ag reps that have been there for years that there is new staff coming in, and how he can say now that he will communicate with the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs in this very important matter. MR. USKIW: I think, Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Roblin probably has forgotten that some four years ago, or five, we had indicated to this Assembly that we are going to regionalize the departmental system, that we are going to have staff tied to the regional offices, and that there would be a shift away from the City of Winnipeg towards the rural regions. If he is amazed at the number of staff in Dauphin, let me tell you that it reflects the success of that program. He will find perhaps a shortage, not a shortage but lower level of staffing in the central system as a result of that change that has taken place.

So I think that is a positive move, not a negative one, Mr. Chairman. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, is the Honourable Minister trying to tell me that the quality of life in the rural communities among the farmers wasn't as good in those days as it is today. I'm just pointing out a little difference of opinion, for even the Minister today should communicate with his staff there and let them know who is coming in on any given day, because they don't know who is coming in, and they think that they're farmers that, you know, they are just dropping in to deal with certain matters, and that's a fact.

I'm not being critical, but I'm being critical of the Minister that he is so tied up in his own philosophies and his own directives that he hasn't said to me that he is prepared to go over and sit down with the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, and helpfully make these agricultural fairs a joint effort of both departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Lest there be some misunderstanding amongst my colleagues and the Minister, I would like to point out that the Austin Museum started out as a very small organization and through initiative and incentive of the progressive people of that area, and the Conservative Party, they have brought it to the point whereby it is recognized by the government as the Manitoba Museum of Agriculture, and I certainly appreciate the fact that the Minister has seen fit

March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. FERGUSON cont'd) .••.. to increase the grant to the area. It's very well deserved and we are only too happy in that area to share the fruits of our labours with the rest of the people of Manitoba. 695 MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 16 (c)--pass. Resolution 16(

d) Canada-Manitoba ARDA Agreement: Salaries, $156, 300--pass. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could inform us with regard to the publication like Eastern Voyageur and that type of thing, how many staff people are involved in that particular publication·; how many copies of that particular piece ofliterature are distributed, and at what cost to the government the Eastern Voyageur is. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, in the eastern region I believe that involves one staff person.

Yes, there is one communications man il). every region of the province, _so there is five for the five regions. _ MR. BANMAN: Could the Minister inform the House as to what the cost of the printing that particular publication is? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I can't give him that breakdown, I just have the total cost of Other Expenses here so I couldn't give him that. MR. CHAIRlVIAN: (d)(1)--pass. (d)

(2) Other Expenditures $178, 000--pass. (16( (

d) Canada Manitoba FRED Agreement: Salaries $57, 100--pass; Other Expenditures $87, 000--pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2, 547,80 0--pass. Resolution 17, Youth and Family, Regional Division: (a)

(1) Salaries $276, 900- pass. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: 17(1) on Youth and Family. I wonder if the Minister could give us the breakdown of over $100, 000 increase in the expenditures on that one. MR. USKIW: In that first item on Regional, that would represent a normal increase, just the incremental increases. There's nothing new added to the program. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) (1)--pass. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I guess this is the number that includes the 4-H Clubs.

I'm wondering if the Minister can advise this House of the 4-H program, how it's progressing, and how many new clubs have been instituted since he took office, and what the progress is of the 4-H movement, which is very important in my constituency. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I believe, Mr. Chairman, the 4-H Program is well defined in the Annual Report so that I don't think it needs repetition. In terms of expenditures, we have 587. 3 thousand in the 4-H Program before us, so it's a fairly significant expenditure. An increase of $78, 000 over last year. MR.

McKENZIE: How ma..ny new staff are in the input into the program, and what are their duties and their responsibilities? Are they to, you know, further develop, or is the money being spent for trips, and I'd like some idea of what's going on. MR. USKIW: There are two full-time staff in every region and then we have 4-H aides additional to that but there are no new ones over last year. We have not increased the level of staffing although we have increased the level of financial support. MR.

McKENZIE: May I ask the Minister then of the Exchange Programs, the dollars that the department is contributing and the dollars that are being contributed at the local level, and how many are contemplated for under the estimates we have before us? MR . USKIW: I don't have that specific breakdown, here. I would have to attempt to get that for the member. for the Member for Roblin. Mr. Chairman, in my notes Yes, all right we'll get it MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think that this is an important area here and we're talking about our 4-H Clubs, whether they be sewing clubs, beef clubs, etc. , and I'm wondering, you know, when you go to the . • . I think it has some significant relevance to - we just r:-assed our agricultural societies, there was some increase there and we were talking about the various classes, A, B, and C societies,

696 March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. EINARSON cont'd) ....• but particularly our class C agricultural societies and others, the relationship when we talk about 4-H Clubs, and that is the participation that 4-H Clubs are able to take through their agricultural societies.

You go to these fairs and, you know, you like to think that while the report says the government is going to become less involved to the way of controlling these organizations, they want to have more input from the leaders and from the individuals themselves in the various communities, and I'm wondering if there is any monetary initiative being extended to some thought of extending through the 4-H Clubs, such as in beef clubs, where a boy or girl who is in a club that might come first or second in the sewing at a Class C fair, whether there is anything being done to improve the initiative of that individual.

And probably from those who aren't fortunate enough to become the first or second in the classes, there will be initiative probably to help them, to induce them to become involved to the point where they will try for a first class or the best steer in the next year's showing. And I think when we talk about our clubs, Mr. Chairman, while the government is saying they want - I shall repeat again - they want to become less involved insofar as directing is concerned, I wonder if the Minister would explain to us if there is any monetary input being placed to the 4-H Clubs. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the total budget is almost •.. well it's $587,000, so that that's not a small sum of money. If he's talking in terms of financial support, I think that's a fairly generous support to the 4-H Program. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed if I could draw the attention of the honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have Mr. Robert J. McCleave, from Halifax, East Rants, formerly Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons and is currently eo-chairman of the Standing Joint Committee on Regulations and other Statutory Instruments.

On behalf of the honourable members of the Assembly, I bid you welcome here this afternoon. . • • . . . continued next page

March 5, 1976 697 SUPPLY -AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 17(a)(2). Other Expenditures $182,500. The Hon ourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I just noticed the caption "to improve rural and northern living through social and economic development" and the Minister might have touched on this before I left. I was wondering if his department was involved or was it another department involved in the Greenhouse Operation in northern Manitoba. Is this the right spot? --(Interjection)-- It's not. Okay. So I missed it. MR.

USKIW: ••• 4-H Program in northern Manitoba which is just a year old now, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Well, Mr. Chairman, I've been attempting to recognize Estimates that used to be my own and it's not that many years ago. Mr. Chair man, I find some difficulty in doing that.

I've circled the big $2,547,000 in Resolution 16; I've circled the item, the $759,000 that we are now dealing with under Youth and Family, and then I know I'm preceding myself a little bit, when you go over to the next page, we have another close to a million dollars on Community and Family Branch. All in all, Mr. Chairman, it totals up to some $4 million plus that the Department of Agriculture is spending. MR. USKIW: Over five. MR. ENNS: Or $5 million, pardon me. The Minister corrects me. I'm thank ful for that correction. You see I have never had that occasion, Mr. Chairman, to have been part of Mr.

Orlikow's new maths or education course in the Department of Education I don't have a pocket calculator in my pocket, and if I did my Taiwan battery ran out just about now and so I couldn't add as fast as the Honourable Minister did. But, Sir, we're talking about $5 million. And we're talking about the Department of Agriculture, eh? This is cows, this is beef, this is a bit of manure, you know, and crops and wheat, and everything else. And, you !mow, I'm a little aunaz.ed at this hand-holding social program that the Department of Agriculture entertains itself with because, Mr.

Chairman, it's not that I haven't a concern for the needy in our province, you know, I assume that sooner or later we'll get to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services' Estimates. I note just one item in flipping over the Estimates Book where we have • •• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. We are on the Department of Agriculture. Would the honourable member please remain in the Department of Agriculture. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, you surely would want me to be accurate in my description. I can use by example the government's own estimates.

All I'm saying is, Sir, that I read for instance a few pages over in the same book of estimates, the Department of Health and Social Services, which is going to spend several hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars, in doing this: Makes recommendations to the Minister on matters relating to the social and economic needs of residents of Manitoba.

But here in the Department of Agriculture we are just now discussing Community Improve ment, Youth and Family, Community and Family Programs Branch, Community and Family Programs Branch again, and we're talking about $5 million being spent in this way. Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Honourable Minister, and I ask this seriously of the Honour able Minister, that if he would perhaps in.- begging your indulgence, Mr.

Chairman, stretch ing the rule or the format somewhat - by asking the Honourable Minister to give us a statement about the dedication of funds that he is dedicating in this whole area of Community Improvement, Youth and Family and Community Family Branch Programs. What I'm really seeking, Mr.

Chairman, is for the Honourable Minister to give us some indication about how he views and hew he justifies the expenditures of upward to $5 million� $5 million in the Department of Agriculture, notwithstanding the multi multi millions of dollars that his colleague the Minister of Health and Social Services and Development is going to be asking for, notwithstanding the fact that for the first time in 100 years this government has solved all the social problems in this province by providing the medicare needs and the health needs of people.

Where does he as a Minister of Agriculture, how does he see his role in demanding from the taxpayers of the Province of Manitoba these kinds of funds? I solicit from him, Mr. Chairman, an explanation for just what it means when

698 March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••• he dedicates close to a million dollars or three quarters of a million dollars for Youth and Family. Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is, and the rural members on this side of the House can attest to the fact, that the services of 4-H groups for instance have declined. Have declined. Eight years ago, ten years ago, 4-H services were at that level.

Since then our specialists in the Department of Agriculture, whether they be home economists or whether they be the ag reps, they've been asked to drop what they're doing and to sell special programs, like the Beef Stabil ization Program, like, and I admit, in the Interlake the development program, the FRED Program. All I know, all I know - yes I admit that - all I know is that if you ask the average farm family in Manitoba today they would tell you, Mr.

Minister - and that's not a part of the statement that I made - they will tell you that the ag rep spends less time in terms of the 4-H movement than they did five years ago, eight years ago, or ten years ago� And the Minister nods because he has loaded other duties, other jobs on them. But my problem is in terms of the estimates we are loading an awful lot more dollars on the taxpayers of Manitoba for these services.

You know it boggles my imagin ation how well the ag reps, how well the Department of Agriculture looked after the needs of the 4-H, how well the home economists looked after the sewing clubs, the sewing courses, and what have you, you know, in rural Manitoba at a time when the budget was half of this, was half of this. So Mr. Chairman, I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued, Mr. Chairman, how this Minister spends $5 million in essentially, you know, I suppose I could say non-agrarian programs. Youth and Family, Co mmunity Improvement, Community and Family Program Branch --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Minister, well the Honourable Minister of Labour now wishes to enter the debates of agriculture. --(Interjection)-- And I would welcome, I would welcome his entry into the debate at any time. But, Mr. Chairman, all I'm saying is that when you add up these one, two, three, four, five programs together, they spell out $5 million that the Department of Agriculture is spending in this field. Now that's notwithstanding the moneys spent by the Department of Health and Social Services in related fields.

And I just read you one caption there, ''Makes recommendations to the Minister on matters relating to the social and economic well-being of all Manitoba residents." That's notwithstanding those pro grams entered into, for instance, by the Minister of Education, and I know he has many programs relating to these same kind of fields. That's notwithstanding the programs entAred into by the Minister of Tourism and Recreation that has an effect in terms of rural life and the economics of rural life.

But I would ask the Honourable Minister of Agriculture to, at this point, explain to us and to rationalize the expenditure of these $5 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, if one were able to put the debates of two years ago, last year, and this year, into one debate in one afternoon, one would find the Member for Lakeside first of all not wanting to make the speech that he just made because he has completely contradicted his position of last year and the year before. You will recall, Mr.

Chairman, that we had decided to re-arrange our staffing with respect to home economics. We transferred out five or six positions to the Department of Health, but who would still provide the same services to the Department of Agri culture. And there was a storm of protest from the other side when we shifted one home economist from one of the regions.

There was an emergency debate pending in this House on that cme shift because we were shifting one home economist, The Mem- ber for Rock Lake, and all of the people who made a contribution to that debate, be moaned the fact that there was a shift of one staff man year, and now the Member for Lakeside is telling us really should you be spending that much money on these programs. Is he saying we should reduce further? Well I want to tell him. • • And the second argument, Mr.

Chairman, was, and you don't have to do any research, at least I don't think so, I think my memory is fairly accurate in this regard, is that we were under mining the 4-H Program, was the other argument. It was going to be a disaster; we were wiping it aut. And now on the item that the Member for Lakeside raises so much

March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) .ado about, three quarters of that money is 4-H, Mr. Chairman. 699 MR. ENNS: ••• the Honourable Minister is bordering on a position that makes me rise on a point of privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member state his point of privilege. MR. ENNS: For him to suggest that I am making a great ado about it, I think what I'm doing is my legitimate right. I'm asking the Minister to rationalize, to explain the expenditure of these moneys. For him to interpret that as a great ado is somewhat diff erent, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister for Agriculture.

MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, it's very clear that the Member for Lakeside questioned these expenditures. That was the whole tone --(Interjection)-- Well, but questions on whether they are needed, Mr. Chairman, whether the programs are needed; this involves 4-H and Home Economics essentially, even the ag societies are involved. The Training and Employment Program is involved, and the Agricultural Manpower Pro gram is involved here - all of the things that he really doesn't want disturbed, but he would like to somehow leave the impressio n that we're somewhat careless in our spending here.

Three quarters of this money is 4-H and Youth; he bemoaned the fact, Mr. Chair man, that the ag rep doesn't spend as much time on the 4-H Program any more, and that is correct. What he has forgotten is that instead of having four central 4-H specialists which we had when he was the Minister, we have two 4-H specialists per region and two in the centre for a total of ten. And then we have some 4-H Aids, so we have a total of twelve, Mr. Chairman.

So I'm not sure just what the direction of my honourable friends opposite is, be cause a year ago they condemned us for scuttling the 4_;H Program, wrong as it was, and this year they are questioning the expenditures on it. Mr. Chairman, there is no consist ency whatever on that side. The question is , where is the government's position and then what is the nature of our attack going to be� That is the question. So that no matter which side the government is on, the attack has to come, Mr. Chairman, but only that they find themselves now in complete contradiction of their position of a year ago. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Well Mr. Chairman, again it's like the Crocus Foods debate. When you ask this Minister a question you never get an answer, and here's a classic example. We're asking the Minister to justify the expenditure of several millions of dollars. He's spoke now at great length. He never gave us one inkling of how this money is going to be spent, what it's for and it's the rights of the opposition in this House --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR.

USKIW: The Member for Roblin stands on his feet and suggests that I didn't outline the expenditures. Mr. Chairman, I have gone through them three times now. I had just stated that three-quarters of these were in the 4-H Program and the balance in the Home Ec and some manpower related services, and that's the sum total of $759,000, So let not the Member for Roblin rise in his place and suggest that I haven't answered his question. MR. McKENZIE: Well Mr. Chairman, I just can't accept those remarks, in no shape or form.

The Honourable Member for Lakeside, my desk mate, has already rose to his feet and asked the Minister to explain the expenditure of these $5 million, and so --(Interjec tion)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. Order please. I am going to enforce the rules, and the rules state that you speak to the item under discussion. The item under discussion right now is 17(a)(2) - other Expenditures, $182,500, and the mem bers will speak to that question and that qUf'cstion only. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, if I may then paraphrase it under a diff erent subject, let's go back to the Stay Option Program.

As I suspect, this is the Stay Option Program that's in the records of this government, and they have been telling us of t�e tremendous results that the 4-H clubs and the Agricultural Society and all the other groups in rural Manitoba were going to get from this Stay Option policy of this

700 March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) , •••• government. So can I, Mr. Chairman, debate it on those grounds, which is we see now is a matter of some $5 million. And I'll just ask the Minister real quick under his Stay Option Program or the 4-H club if he could show ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a Point of Order. Order please. MR. USKIW: We are not dealing with $5 million of expenditure here, we are dealing with $182, 500, and my remarks are confined to that. If my honourable friends opposite wish to stray all over the globe, Mr.

Chairman, I think they should be called to order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well taken. The honourable member will confine his remarks to this. I might remind the honourable member that the Minister's salary is still open and when we complete going through here then he can go back and cover the waterfront, The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I'd prefer to follow the Minister's guidelines, and I'll add them up. I'm speaking now on the Stay Option Program and this is part of the matter which we are debating. I'll ask the Minister if he can show me through this Stay Option Program, which is the , , • MR.

USKIW: ••• 4-H and Youth or Other Expenditures? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I have no further remarks, but I would think that perhaps as a matter of House privilege that the Minister may consider in view of the kind of shuttle service that he has in front of him, that he would from time to time in troduce the members of his senior staff who are assisting him in these Estimates. I recognize Mr. Osmond and of course our Deputy Minister, Mr.

Janssen. but there are new members in the House, and indeed the press, and I think it might be of service to know and to recognize the senior members of the department as they appear in this shuttle service before the Honourable Minister. It's a matter of courtesy to the House, and I leave it to the Honourable Minister, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Well Mr. Chairman, the member has already done just that, but if he wishes me to, I present to the members, Mr. Janssen the Deputy Minister on my left and Helgi Osmond in charge of Community Family Youth Programs on my right. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. lVIR. EINARSON: Well Mr. Chairman, from all this debate and the way the department have their Estimates established here - and we talk about it, we're going to be on $182, 500.

But the heading is, and I read the heading: "Provides for the develop ment of attitudes, knowledge and skills of youth and families to improve rural and northern living through social and economic development.'' Now if you apply that on every regional division, and then you would apply that to every community and family program planning in the branch and all the regions, is that the way I understand the way these Estimates are established? Mr.

Chairman, I think this is a bit confusi:'lg, when we talk about and accuse us of rambling all over the place; because, you know, you have your main heading which relates to all the subjects under this resolution and so it becomes difficult to find out from the Minister. I'll ask him then� $182, 500. is that divided in every region in this part of the department? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Yes. We have five regions which represent an expenditure of $182,500. That's the regional thrust of that program, that's correct. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 17(a)(2) - the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Can I ask the Minister then what the members of the 4-H Club this year, last year and the year before ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister for Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I think I answered that earlier. The member might look at the Annual Report of the Department. It's all stated there for him. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)(2)--pass; (b)(l) • • • MR. McKENZIE: Another question on the same subject matter.

I wnnder, now that we've heard the policy of the government regarding the three Rs, if in fact that the Minister is pursuing the same philosophy as the Deputy Minister of Education

March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR, McKENZIE cont'd) • , ••• amongst these 4-H Clubs. 701 MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)

(1) Community and Family Programs Branch --(Interjection)- MR. McKENZIE: ••• I'll ask the Minister again, If this is government policy and I guess it is government ·policy, can I ask the Minister then it is government policy that's being infiltrated through the Deputy Minister of the department, through the 4-H Clubs, that you don't need the three Rs any more. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 17(b)(1) $42,800--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures, $93, 000--pass; Resolution 17 (

c) Canada - Manitoba FRED Agreement, Salaries, $65,300- pass. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake, MR. ElNARSON: There's an increase here of almost twenty thousand, Is that just straight salaries or is there an increase in numbers of personnel employed there? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture, MR. USKIW: No, there's no change in staffing there, Mr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN: Other Expenditures, $40,000 --pass; Canada - Manitoba NORTHLANDS Agreement, (d)

(1) Salaries, $40,900--pass. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr, Chairman, could the Minister - you know, in view of the fact that we recognize we are bereft of that advantage of having an expanse of agricultural land and activity in our north land, could he give us some brief explanation of this item in his Estimates? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture, MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the Department of Northern Affairs and the people of northern Manitoba have come to appreciate that the Department of Agriculture could make a contribution to northern Manitoba, And because we have the overall facilities with respect to the 4-H Program, we have been asked to deliver a similar program in digenous to the northern parts of Manitoba - that is, a 4-H Program of the north, and that represents two staff-man-years for that purpose. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. ElNARSON: Well Mr.

Chairman, he talks about the 4-H Clubs in the north, Just what area is he talking about, north to the 53rd parallel, and what are the 4-H Clubs involved in in that area? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, they're involved in leadership training and work activities very much the same as the southern ones, excepting they deal with matters pertaining to northern Manitoba, They're not producing beef up there, they're involved in mining and timber cutting and fishing, and the 4-H Programs relate to their own environment. --(Interjection)-- MR, CHAIRMAN: Order please, (d)(1)--pass; (d)

(2) Other Expenditures, $18,100- pass, Resolution 17 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $759,500 for Agriculture--pass, Resolution 18 - Employment and Training (a)

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, maybe this is the item under which I should have spoke earlier, and if I was out of order I do apologize, I'm glad to see the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources sitting very close to the Minister of Agriculture in our debate of this item. I'm wondering, if in fact, he could give us some idea of how the youth are staying in these rural constituencies, how the unemployment insurance rate has dropped, and how come Canada Manpower now has backed off and are not in terested in these rural constituencies.

In fact it's very difficult to get through to the Federal Gov ernment back to this Minister to find what is going on in these rural areas. Because they're being disentitled, disqualified, almost on a daily basis for grounds that are certainly not this Minister's responsibility, but very shady grounds. I'm just wonder ing, now that we've had the benefit and the wisdom of this Stay Option Program for some several years now, if he can give me some idea that we have less unemployment in the rural areas of my constituency, I can't speak for the others.

Or if in fact, the Minister of Mines over here now, when I spoke about the beavers the other day, would go back and let the local people get involved and pay them to clea:p. up these drains and fix up the drains, simple matters which the Minister raised of a simple Order of Return today about cleaning up drains; because I don't see any

702 March 5, 1976 SUPPL Y - AGRICULTURE (MR . McKENZIE cont'd) • • • • .future for anybody in my constituency to stay there and farm rationally and responsibly unless the government is going to help them clean up the drainage problems of the Riding Mountains and the Duck Mountain which are tremendous. This government has backed off. The policy of the government before was that they went in there and helped· those people to clean up these drains .

How can you farm in there or how can you keep youth in there; how can you train people to farm and continue to farm if this government is not going to go in and help them clean up the drainage problems and all other matters that this deals with, this matter now which is two million one point nine ? I wonder now what liaison the Minister has • • • MR . USKIW : Mr . Chairman, really I have to rise on a Point of Order. The Member for Roblin certainly is not in order this afternoon. He is wanting to deal with questions of drainage now which have nothing to do with this department at the moment. MR.

C HAffiMAN: I believe the drainage program comes under the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR . McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, I'm speaking on Unemployment and Training - or Employment and Training. -- (Interjection)-- Well, it certainly has. It's a policy of this government, and you can't have it both ways . You're talking Stay Option on the one hand; on the other hand you're telling the people to get out because we're not going to help you solve these problems.

And I just wonder - there's some $2, 192, 000 which pro vides for improvement opportunities to unemployed and underemployed rural people and their families through integrated counselling, training and employment activities. You know, the Minister and the government has been telling us that they have a tremendous Stay Option Program which they're prepared to deal with to help us that sit in the rural seats to make sure that the people can live there and make a living. Mr.

Chairman, I can assure you that there is man y people in my constituency that never got their crops off because of the reasons of this government. And I want to ask the Minister if he has had any ••• MR . CHA ffiMAN: Order please . The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources on a Poi nt of Order. MR . GREEN : Mr . Chairman, on a Point of Order, for a moment I thought that the member was not being serious , but I see that I have to give him less credit than he deserves.

The fact is that the drainage program which will have to be defended by the governmen t comes under the Department of the Minister of Resources and Environmental Management, and the honourable member cannot take a broad subject such as employment and under that subject deal with the drainage program of the Minister. He has to deal with the moneys that are expended under the Employment Program which he can ask questions about and criticize.

But to be able to deal with this general item of drainage under that item, then we may as well have no items under the Estimates and just have Es timates of the Government, $1 billion, let's have a free-for-all. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, I think that's pretty unfair, that I can't ask the Minister of Agriculture if he's having any liaison whatsoever with the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources -- (Interjection)-- MR . C HAffiMAN: Order. MR . GREEN: Mr .

Chairman, there's no question that he can ask that question, but under the item that he is dealing with he should stick to that item. Perhaps he should ask that question during Orders of the Day. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if I could ask a question that may fall within the item that we're dealing with, Employment and Training. I know that the department has undertaken - Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to attract the Honourable Minister's attention.

I know that the department has undertaken various training programs and they've involved indeed to the extent of bringing people from abroad to train in specialized areas such as dairying, etc. If I can repeat myself for .the benefit of the Minister, I know that the department has been involved through their regional offices to bringing in uarticular rural and agricultural trainees and employment oppor tunities from people abroad. I refer specifically to the dairying industry. I know that

March 5, 1976 SUPPL Y - AGRICULTURE (MR. ENNS con t'd) ••••• the department has had several inquiries, some perhaps succes sful, some not, about bringing people into specialized areas of agriculture which for some reason or other it's been difficult to get labour and help for. 703 I know that his department has been active in the field through their regional offices to soliciting, you know, applications from individual farmers, whether or not they would be prepared to accept a foreign trainee in various fields of agriculture. Could the Minister give us some indication how this program has been running?

I think probably it involves the dairy industry more than any other industry where actual applications have been made and have been completed for the importation of labour into the Province of Manitoba to help out in this labour scarce area in the field of agriculture. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I really think I should rise to help my friends opposite so that we in fact debate the items that are before us.

I know the heading is fairly general, but to help them to debate these items I would indicate to them that we are dealing with specifically Interlake Manpower Corps , FR ED, Manpower Corps Rural Deve lopment, Rural Counselling Services, Home Management Services, and Agricultural Manpower. So far the only Member that has contributed to the debate on any of those items is the Member for Lakeside; and in that cmmection I would like to tell him that last year we had an exchange program to the Farm Labour Placement Service of some 65 people who were brought in from overseas to this province .

This year we are intending to have an exchange program involving 110 people that would come into Manitoba from different parts of the world. So that is the scope of that particular activity, but the other activities are the major sums of money that we are now dealing with. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Just in passing, can the Minister comment to these 65 persons that were involved in this program from overseas ? Can the Minister give us some indication has it been relatively succes sful to the farmer operator?

Has there been any indication of an increased response towards this program? The Minister indicated that they wished to expand this aspect of the program. The other question, of course , that I think concerns all of us as Manitobans is - and I don't say this in a critical way to the Minister, Mr .

Chairman - but it does bother us I'm sure, that while we're blesse d with a singularly low unemployment figure in the Province of Manitoba, the need for this kind of a program; you know, I recognize it, and I am prepared to give credit to the government for entering into it, it does bother myself as a native Manitoba farmer the fact that we have to embark on programs to bring in young farm lads from England, or from Holland, or from Germany, to man our farms. It bothers me, it says that there is something basically wrong in our situation, and I'm , Mr. Chairman, not the best example of that situation.

I mean , it bothers me that my 21 year old son isn't helping me on my farm the way he should be instead of taking a Fine Arts course at the U of M, you know, and contributing to somebody's pension plan. But the thing is, what are the Minister's thoughts about this program? Does he foresee, and I hope he doesn't foresee it in a major way, that Manitoba agriculture will eventually become dependent on the importation in increasing numbers, increasing amounts of foreign labour.

We f:J.ce that situation, it's a difficult situation, and I am P'-·epared to acknowledge to the Minister that it is not an easy situation that we've had to face it in some very specific areas of agriculture ; for instance, in the vegetable production area, in the importation of people from Mexico and people from other places to harvest our crops that for some reason :Jr other native Manitobans, our sons and daughters aren't prepared to do. But does the Minister foresee this a trend ha;Jpening, are we five years away from that kind of a situation that, for instance, a southern California farmer sees himself in?

Or the southern States' farmers see themselves in, that we become depend ent on the significant and pretty massive migration of migrant workers to harvest our crops, Is that the area that we're moving into, and if so, what can we do to stop that? I think that the Minister would be the first one to agree , and I agree with him, that that's not a desirable avenue to move down. I think we are prepared to make the kind of facilities available to individual farmers or individual aspects of the agricultural industry need that face this problem, will open the doors of immigration and indeed let foreign

704 March 5, 1976 SUP PLY - AGRICUL TURE (MR . ENNS con t'd) •• , •• labour in. But, you know Mr. Ch airman, I would hate to think that we are walking into a situation which other coun tries, particularly west European countries find themselves in, where so much of their economy if fueled by, to use a German phrase "Gastarbeiter", where foreign labour provides the means of har vesting and of fueling the economy, an important segment of the economy that keeps the whole wheel turning. Now if we are talking about a program, Mr.

Chairman, that involves exchange programs , if we are talking about 50, 60 or lOO exchange students or farm lads coming to us from England, or from Fran ce, or from Italy , or from Germany, exchanging and working with us on our far ms, tha t's fine , but I would be concerned, Mr. Ch airman, if we are moving our agricultural economy for whate ver reasons into a situation where we become dependent on foreign labour to harvest fruit s of our productions . MR . USKIW: Mr . Chairman, I appreciate the comments of the Member for Lakeside.

The philosophy of government in this whole area is one which would promote the development of our own labour force to the extent that it is possible , It's obviously very diff icult, we 're having our problems, but I think we have had a fairly agg ressive program in terms of manpower allocation, attempts through the Manpower Labour Pools tha t we established a few years ago - and by the way which the Governmen t of Canada has taken over completely, the total program, which they thought was a good program. So we have been relieved of that one .

But we are now involved in activities which would develop a local manpower base through a bit of persuasion and some discussion that has to take place between, in particular, the native groups and prospective employers. We are trying to develop a program which would not lead us in the direction that the Member for Lakeside is so concerned about.

But in the event that of course we cannot completely satisfy our needs, then of course we have to accept some colouration, shall we say, in our labour force of people from various areas wherever they 're available , But the philosophy is to try to 1-telp our people help them selve s. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Mr.

Ch airman, I would like to ask the Minister then, in view of the operations that have occurred in the last couple of years at the Birtle Co-op Farm, if the example that has been used there is really the policy of the government, are they attempting to program such as that to encourage and foster and improve and train people in the farming industry in Manitoba? MR . USKIW: Mr . Ch airman, I don't believe that the Co-op Farm had anything to do with this particular program, I'm not aware of any connection there whateve r.

Whatever private arrangements were entered into is something that I would not be familiar with, however. MR . CHAIRMAN: Res olution 18 (a) (1) . The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, back on the training, can I ask the Minister; what kind of people are you training and how many, and what are their directions or instructions? Are you proposing to continue with the PEP program, the STE P program, the LIP program, the FY program, and all these other programs ?

Now we're faced with the guidelines, I wonder if the Minister could give me some idea, who are the se p0ople and what kind of training are they receivLng ? I come from a depressed area, and I can't see that the STE P program of this government or the Minister has solved the unemployment in programs. That's why I want to raise the thing about cleaning up some of the se drains , there's a lot of those people prepared to go to work out there and clean up some of our drainage problems, but we can't get the co-operation of the other Minister, MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr .

Chairman, the Member for Roblin made mention of programs that are not provincial in nature, so I'm not going to get involved in that discussion. I want to indicate to him that we have in the In terlake program some 300 trainees; in the eastern Manitoba region and the northwest region, we hope to have about 100 in each of those two regions, for a total of 500; and then of course we have the Vet Clinic Man power Training Program which I believe handles about 30 trainees, and so on. So that we have several hundreds in our program but I'm not in a position to debate the Federal

March 5, 1976 705 SUPPL Y - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) • • , .thrust in this area. We have no PE P program for the coming year . MR. McKENZIE : Can I ask the Minister a question? The programs that have been under way for some time - is he satisfied now that tile farm labour problem has been resolved, that the direction that he has been taking and the government has been taking, that they have finally solved the shortage of farm lab::mr on the farms in my constituency? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution lS( a) (l). The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister referred to in his report about counselling and giving advice to farmers, and I know I made a comment that may have sounded facetious • • • MR. USKIW: Mr . Chairman, I rise on a point of order. That item comes under the ARDA package, so that if we can get down to that point then we can debate the coun sellors' program. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, we'v e got two resolutions. We have Community and Family Programs Branch in two different resolutions here , so we wonder if there is a duplication here of services.

But I think that when we are talking about the main resolution - and the explanation of it applies in the whole resolution - I thought maybe you could talk about the resolution generally as it covers the items and the whole tiring.

It's only when you get down to the specific area of that resolution that you have to be confined to this, and that is why I have just come to realize when the Minister indicated that we were not making the proper contribution that we might have made to it, that I realized that I thought we would have to speak on the first part of the resolution before we got into the main items , because once you get down there then you do confine yourself and can't broaden your scope to any extent.

And so when we talk about, in the main part of the resolution, the Minister providing personnel to extend counselling to farmers and I made a comment about a farmer going out and using a corn planter to sow grass on an already sodded ·field, this • . • MR. CH AIRMAN: Order please . Just so there'll be no misunderstanding, I would refer the Honourable Member to his Rule Book, Page 31 Rule 64, Sub-section (2) , Speeches in the Committee of the Whole House - and this also applies to Committee of Supply - must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion.

We are now on lS( a) (l) , Salaries in the Regional Division for $56,900 . The Honourable Member please confine his remarks to that item. MR. McK ENZIE : Well Mr . Chairman, I'l l go back agdn to the item which we're dealing with: Provides income improvement opportunities to the unemployed and under employed rural people • • • and ask the Minister to give the people of my constituency some indication of what he's talking for, the expenditures of these moneys. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Well again, Mr.

Chairman, I just finished outlining to the Member for Lakeside what the totality of this appropriation is all about, and I will repeat it for the Member for Roblin. But while I give him the total picture, it is also broken down into regional activities, into the main branch activities and then the ARDA and FRED components, so that he shouldn't ass ume to debate the same thing on each of those items.

The programs are Interlake Manpower Corps, Manpower Corps Rural Development, Rural Counsellors, Home Management and Agricultural Manpower; those are the headings1 some of th ose are within ARDA, some are outside of ARDA . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Minister to give me some positive results of the programs, some indication that it is working and he's getting some results . MR. USKIW: Mr .

Chairman, I get the impression that some members opposite are either stalling for time and they don't know what to talk about, because the questions are very repetitious . I had just indicated that we had employed, or underemployed through these programs, some several hundred people throughout various regions of the province. In the Selkirk area, we have the Manpower Training plant which is in the business of making parks' furniture; in the Louis Riel facility at St . Laurent, it's another Manpower Training program which is involved in the building of step ladders and small

706 March 5, 1976 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) ••••• office furniture and so on; and we have between those two about 300 people involved on an annual basis. So that is an indication of that part of the province. In the southeast corner, we plan to have about lOO people in a Manpower Training corps whiph will work with a Critical Home Repair group in the repairing of peoples' homes who qualify for critical home repair; likewise in northv<estern Manitoba, there will be a unit to do the very same thing. MR .

McK ENZIE: So then basically all I can tell the people at Roblin is that this program is just the home repair program ? MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairman, in terms of Manpower training there may be other projects that will be on the scene , but that is what we have for the moment. MR . McKENZIE : That's the question that I asked, and of course the Minister as usual skates all around it . I asked him a specific question.

Can he give me some idea what's going to happen, so I can go back and tell the people of Roblin constituency that these moneys are being expended well and they're going to get the results of some of these dollars, and the Minister hasn't . MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution lS( a) (l)--pa ss; (2)--p ass ; (b)(l)-- pass; (b)(2)--p ass; (c)(l)-- pas s; (c) (2)--pas s; (d) (l)-- pas s; (d) (2)--p ass : Res olution 18: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2, 192 , 400 for Agriculture--pass. • • • • • continued on next page

March 5, 1976 707 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAffiM AN: Resolution 19 - The Water Services Board . 19(a) -- pass. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: I wo nder if the services of the Manitoba Water Services Board there has been - I have come across a number of farmers who made application for assist ance when they were go ing to improve their water faci lities on their farms and there's be en some dis crepancy . • . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the MBmber for Rock Lake is not on the subject again.

We have passed that item, we have discussed it before during the course of our Estima tes, These are to do with towns and villa ges, communities , municipalities . MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR, BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think this is an important part of the Minister's ministry, and I think that - as we noticed in the Annual Report of the Manitoba Water Services Board, they've undertaken some fairly extensive water projects in rural Manitoba, and I wo uld particularly note that the town that I live in, Steinbach, has undertaken as far as this town is concerned a fairly massive type of water and sewage treatment undertaking.

I wo uld like to ask the Minister - this is an agreement I under stand with PFRA, and PFRA is doing some of the engineering studies with regards to the Steinbach project, and I would wo nder if the Minis ter could tell me at this time the en gineering fees or the consultants that PFRA hires - are they paid for by the province or are they paid by PFR A, or is that money taken out of the advances that are made to the municipalities to the contractors fo r the work being done? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chai rman, that is shared three ways , PFRA, the province and the town, so that it's a global budget posit ion but we are all involved. MR. BANMAN: For further clarification then, Mr. Chairman, I understand that the Town of Steinbach has hired their engineers that they have had througho ut the years. Then there also se ems to be another set of engineers as far as the PFR A people .are concerned wit h checking out the particular progress of the construction. Is the Mini ster saying that the consultants or the engineering firms hired by the town are being paid by the three different levels? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I think the member should appreciate the agree ments that are in effect. Under the Trade Centres Agreement the province and the Gove rnment of Canada have agreed that the PFRA are the delivery arm of this program, so that everything must be approved in accordance with that agreement, and if the town is hiring engineers of their own, I'm sure that they could not do so witho ut the concur rence of the PFRA authority unless they are prepared to pay the additional costs . So I suspect there has to be either a fo rmal arrangement there or it wo uldn't be possible. MR. BANMAN : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Further along the lines of sewer and water treatment, many of the small rural communities of course are making enquiries of the Minister at this time for further installation and I wo nder if the Minister could tell us what kind of success the department has had with the low pressure se wer systems , if they have installed them in any towns and how they're making out wi th them. MRo USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe we have installed any community with a low pressure system as yet, although our understanding of the program in Saskatchewan is that it's be en fairly successful.

So that we're yet to embark on that aspect within Manitoba. MR. BANM AN: Are there any communities that have done cost analysis with regards to the low pressure system that will be coming on stream within the next year? Becaus e I think the Minister can appreciate that many of the small towns feel that there is very little future for them if they don't go into some kind of sewer and water system, not only on bases of getting proper mortgages for the housing to be built in these com munities but generally for the environmental problems and different things that have arise n in the last little while.

And I think it would be impo rtant to possibly get one com munity go ing on this so that we could all have a look at it and maybe make recommenda tions to the different smaller towns in our area because, as I mentioned, it is of great impor tance to most areas. I note now in my constituency, we've got the Town of La Broquerie which is batting around the ideas of installing some kind of system. And

708 March 5, 19 76 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. BANMAN cont'd) ••••• then when we look at the book over here and we look at what happened in Teulon with regards to the installation of that sewer and water facility, I think they ran over cost by about $30 0, 000 - from a $500, 000 cost to $80 0, 000. I think it shows that most of these small communities , unless some system is found whereby they can convert into an economical water and sewage treatment facility, it will be virtually impossible for any of them to ever get any sewer and water installed at all. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, we have done studies with respect to a number of communities and we have found that the cost could be reduced in some cases by a third and in some cases by as much as a half, so we expect this program to be under way. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I posed a question earlier which pertains to farmers and the Minister ruled me out of order. He said we've passed that item. Now I'd like to know where • • • MR. CHAffiMAN: The Minister didn't rule you out of order. The Minister doesn't rule anybody out of order.

The only person who is going to rule anybody out of order is myself, as long as I'm in this Chair. MR. USKIW: I rise on a point of order, and point out to the Member for Rock Lake that we did discuss that aspect under Technical Serv ices, Resolution 15, and we did deal at some point with farm water servi ces . Now I don't know whether he made a contribution, but I know it was discussed, MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry then. I must have been out of the House for the short time then. I'm glad to hear • • • the debate was on under Technical Services then.

If anyone on this side made contributions to that then I know where to find it then; we'd have to find it somewhere, because of the fact that this is an important se rvice in farm communities . MR. CHAffiMAN: 19(a) -- pass; 19(b) -- pass. Resolution 19: Resolved that there be granted to Her Maj esty a sum not exceeding $654, 400 for Ag riculture -- pass. I would now refer honourable members back to Page 5 of their Estimate Books. Resolution 8(

a) Ministe r's Compensation. Resolution 8(a) -- pass. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I recall that it gave the Honourable former Leader of the New Democratic Party a great deal of pleasure in introducing a resolution to this House which was voted upon and passed by the present Minister of Agri culture and his colleagues to reduce the then Minister of Ag riculture's salary to 98 cents . To 98 cents . That was the estimation that I stood in the eyes of my honourable friends opposite. Mr.

Chairman, it should be noted that since the time that the Official Opposition has occupied these benches , such a resolution has never come forward; has never attacked any of the pres ent Ministers in that way because ••• Well I see some consternation in the eyes of the Fourth Estate up there. But as a matter of fact a formal resolution of that nature has never come forward and I am sure that there would be members opposite, such as the House Leader, that would remind me whether or not such a resolution ever came forward. But it was the tactics of yesterye ar, Mr.

Chairman, that when they expressed a displeasure in the actions of a Minister, that they would formally introduce a resolution in this House calling for the reduction of a Minister's salary to $1. 00. But, Sir, I was special, in my case it was 98 cen ts . And for that I am thankful, because in the heritage of this House, you know, it set me as being the 98- cent kid, the original Rexall bargain; like you buy a toothbrush for a dollar and you get the next one for a cent. But, Mr.

Chairman, the temptation is there, and I want to impress on the Honourable Minister very seriously , the temptation is there most seriously to provide that kind of a resolution to this Honourable Minister right now. Because, Mr. Chairman, it' s not that the Honourable Minister has not carried out, I'm sure in his view, in his eyes, the responsibilities of that office to the best of his capabilities . But, Sir, he has as a Minister of the Crown a greater responsibility. He has a responsibility to this House, he has a responsibility to the people of Manitoba, and he has not shown that.

He has not shown that to this day. He has used back doors, he has used side doors, he has used every door but the front door to tell us what his plans are for the future of the

March 5, 1976 709 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••• Agri culture Department of this province. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Chairman, no, I will not accuse him of using revolving doors , that particular door is reserved for my Liberal fri ends. They revolve all the time. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I see one of them there. But you know I do discriminate in my descrip tion of what doors what people use. I refer specifically, Mr. Chairman, to the situation that has, I think, probably caused the greatest amotmt of concern and headache to the Honourable Minister , and that is of marketing generally. Mr.

Chairman, in that sense he is not unique. I'm sure that he shares that headache with every other Minister of Agriculture in the provinces of Canada, including the Federal Mini ster, the question of trying to resolve adequate stabilized income s for our farmers or for our primary producers is one that concerns every Minister of Agriculture in this country. Mr. Chairman, and the Minister has shown, he has shown no lack of initi ative in taking and in devising and in encouraging pretty bold and pretty ini tiative steps in this dire cti on. What he has shown though , Mr.

Chairman, is a touch of - and you know I hate to use the wo rd, Mr. Chairman - a touch of cowardice, a touch of •• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. Order. Order, please. MR. ENNS: Is that out of order? MR. CHAIRMAN: That is out of order. I would ask the honourable member ••. MR. ENNB: Can I retract that statement? The rumblings from the Member for Morris should have warned me that I was bord ering on the privileges of the Hou se. Mr. Chairman, though , what I am trying to say is, and I draw this example.

For instance, on such ite ms , such items where this government and the New Democratic Party thought, thought they had the public will with them because there was a public sen timent generated against it.

For instance Autopac - there is no questi on - and we all acknowledge that with the rising prices of automobiles ; with the rising premiums of repairs to automobiles ; with the problems of liti gati on; and the problems of delay, and all the rest of it, that the NDP party when they campaigned in 1969 on the basis of promoting a government Autopac Prog ram that they were in fact, you know, reacting in a populaced way, to solve the problem. They haven't solve d the problem . All they did was drive 1, 200 or 1, 300 independent business people out of office, out of business.

They haven't reduced the price of automobile insurance to the people of Manitoba, they've just added a bureaucracy on top of it. But they managed to snow most Manitobans, and I am prepared to argue to this day on that particular subject matter. But , Sir, that was a subject matter which they were prepared to carry right on their front lapel, bold as brass. They printed that on their campaign liter ature, they went into election on that basis and they were prepared to live with it. Mr.

Chairman, this Minister feels just as strongly about the rationalization that we have discovered he wants to take place within the milk industry. Mr. Chairman, I don't have the resol ution on my desk, I have other resolutions on the desk of - as the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources will remind me - of the last NDP convention. But I can recall the reso luti on that was promoted by the former Member for Crescentwood, Mr. Cy Go nick, when it really hurt him, the fact that a major American firm had involved its elf in the dairy industry in Manitoba. That distresses me too . It distresses me too . Mr.

Chairman, this Honourable Minister did not feel himself that sure of his position that he could put fo rward his ideas of the rationali zation in regard to the dairy industry in the same manner, for instance, that he felt about Autopac insurance, because the basis for public suppo rt wasn't there. The fact of the matter is , Mr. Chairman, that with or without the inclusion of the American giant that the Honourable Minister fears so much, the fact of the matter is that the Manitobans receive the best possible value for their dollar in terms of milk.

No other province in the Dominion of Canada, no other Canadian in the Dominion of Canada receives better value for the prod uct milk than do Marii tobans, than do Manitobans. --(Interjectio n)-- Well, the Honourable Minister says it has nothing to do with it. But that kind of an answer bothers me. You know, if a sit uation provides the best of all possible wo rlds, then what doctrinaire fo rce charges me up to change it? The Honourable Minister is prepared to subject that person on fixed

710 March 5, 19 76 SUPPLY -A GRICULTURE (MR. ENNS cont'd) • • • • • income, that widow, that person on welfare, to pay 70, SO, 9 0 cents for a quart of milk simply to satisfy himself the fact that Beatrice Foods is not getting their four or five cents a quart of milk out of every quart that' s sold in Manitoba . Mr. Chairman, I look for results . You know, in that sense if you want to label me right wing or left wing, I'm not really that concerned.

I'd like to take a leaf out of the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources' page and say, you know, I look for the system that works; and if it' s the system that works then I expect some public response, some public ac ceptance for it. And I cannot really promote or promulgate a position that has its basic and maj or reliance on ideology or philosophy, I look for the system that works. Now the Honourable Minister has expressed concern in the whole milk industry debate about the degree of control that 's been allowed to slip in the hands of a relatively small or a single processor.

But the question surely is , Mr. Chairman , has it hurt Manitobans ? Has it hurt Manitobans ? Has it hurt the prod ucer? Has it hurt the consumer ? And I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister cannot argue that point. The Minister cannot argue that point, on one hand saying that in Manitoba producers, the primary producers get more for their milk than they get anywhere else in the country of Canada ; at the same time the consumers pay less for their milk than anywhere else in Canada .

Now I don't quite frankly give a darn whether it's modern Dairies, Silverwoods or Beatrice or Manco that's providing the processing service, I look at the results . I look at the results . Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister says it has nothing to do with the situation. MR. USKIW: Absolutely nothing. MR. ENNS: Absolutely nothing. But he is determined, he has stood up in this House and said to us, that not a single private business, company , will be allowed and given a licence to expand its facilities . He is prepared to drive out the last vestiges of private, you know, in volvem ent in the dairy industry.

He is prepared to go one step further. Manco, Manco is the one that's profited. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of privilege has been raised. The Honourable Minister for Agriculture. se ctor. MR. USKIW: On a point of privilege . I have never stated that. MR. ENNS: Pardon? MR. USKIW: I hav e never stated that I was prepared to disallow the private MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , we will read Hansard. But that is precis ely what he said. And if you recall, I made the point of asking that the nods of the Minister be recorded in Hansard when I made my statement on the dairy industry yesterday . He has gone further than that .

He is not prepared to allow a co-operative, a co-operative the licence to expand their facilities as they have expressed the desire to do so in Winkler, because it is not in accordance with his plans for the development of the milk industry which happened to be Selkirk. Now, Mr. Chairman , where does the consumer, where does the consumer come out of all this ? You know, Mr. Chairman , when I look over opposite, when I look over the Member of Wellington , look over the Member of St.

Vital, I look over there at some of the northern members , Radisson, you know it is strange that this Party which is composed so strongly of rural Manitobans , of farmers , people, we should be arguing a brief for the farmers . We should be representing the vested interest, but who in the hell in this House is arguing the interest of the consumers? Not one. There is not a statement that the Minister made that had in the course of his discussion, that expressed one concern about the consumer. Not one concern about the consumer. Mr.

Chairman, I am prepared - the Honourable Minister accused me, he said, "If Crocus fails, then it is on the shoulders of the Conservative Party of Manitoba." Mr. Chairman , I am prepared to state right now and then , if this government can't make cheese any better than they can build aeroplanes or buses , then God bless it, I'll accept that responsibility. I'll acc ept that responsibility. When the Member of St. Matthews , the Member of St. Vital, the northern

March 5, 1976 711 SUPP LY -A GRICULTURE (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••• members end up paying 85 and 90 cents for a quart of milk, and the people in the rest of the country are paying 40, 45, 50 and 60 cents for a quart of milk, then you ask this Honourable Minister why that is happening. You ask this Honourable Minister, why is it, why is it today that our neighbors to the south in Minnesota and North Dakota buy our eggs for 48 and 50 cents a dozen - no problem -b ut we pay 90 cents. We pay 90 cents. Why is it that we are selling 30 0 million pounds of milk for 14 cents a pound to anybody who 'l l have it?

You can go to Po land and buy our milk cheaper than Manitobans can buy it in this coun try. Now that' s supply management. And you' re trying to say that in the long run you're going to convince more people in this province that that is the right policy. I welcome that debate. I welcome that ,debate because I am telling you that I' ll cut the cost of living one-third, one-third overnight, and I'll run you on the hustings on that one. I'll run you on the hustings of that one.

All that happens is that you don't expect us as Conservative members to speak this way, because we are supposed to not be responsible for the larger scene. We are supposed to represent only the vested interest of our farm communities , only the dairy farmers of which I have a great deal more than the Member for St. Matthews , the Member for Wellington, the Member for Radisson and the Member for Inkster. I have to argue this fight in my own constituency because that's where the dairy farmers live.

And I repeat, that if we have been reduced to what the Member for Morris said, that we are encouraging our primary producers to encourage only for the benefit of a federal subsidy or a provincial su bsidy, then God help agriculture and the farmers of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Lakeside choo ses to ignore the reality; and the reality is that we have had a Canadian Dairy Policy which was built on supplying the needs of Canadians but not much beyond that. --(Interjection)-- That is a Canadian policy.

That has nothing to do with the Province of Manitoba. The Canadian Dairy Commission maintains a supply-management program on which it's prepared to pay subsidies. Now, whether or not we accept their subsidies is up to us , Mr. Chairman. But I hazard a guess that our industrial milk producers don't want to rej ect the cheques that they get from the Canadian Dairy Commission every month.

And whet her the Member for Lakeside wants to or doesn't want to participate in Canadian National Dairy Policy, it's not for him to decide because he is not going to provide the law of the land in this province which would deny a subsidy to his constituents if they wish to have one, pursuant to Canadian Dairy Policy, and paid for by the Government of Canada, not by the Govern ment of this province. So he' s talking completely out of context when he suggests that he wants to abstain from a policy where people are dependent to some degree on subsidization.

Well, he can abstain, but I can guarantee that his constituents will not abstain, Mr. Chairman, because they want that $2. 66 extra per hundredweight for milk that the Canadian Dairy Commission is prepared to pay. They want that. In fact they have argued to hav e it increased. So the Member for Lakeside doesn't even have, in my opinion at least, the stat utory authority to prevent, to prevent his constituents from receiving the federal subsidy. That is a matter between his constituent and the Government of Canada. It's not a matter between his constituent and the Government of Manitoba.

So it's a red herring of the worst kind, Mr. Chairman, if he is trying to suggest that somehow that matter can be controlled in this province and the federal jurisdiction has no input or no element of control and direction, where in fact the opposite is the case where Canadian Dairy Pol icy controls the limits of production right across this country, province by province. Now they are prepared to allow anyone to produce milk without a su bsidy. That is not their problem. All they say is , that if it enters the Canadian Dairy Commission System there will be penalties that people will pay if they over-produce.

So that is their responsibility, Mr. Chairman. The question of the Province of Manitoba denying the private se ctor an entry into the processing industry here in Manitoba, that's nonsens e. The Member for

71 2 March 5, 1976 SUPPLY -A GRICULTURE (MR. USKIW cont'd) ••••• Lakeside cannot succeed in suggesting that the proposed milk plant in this province is a government milk plant, because that is not the current offer. The offer that has been before the producers of this province for about a year now is one where the province is prepared to lend its financial support for their ownership of a plant, not for the province's ownership of a plant. So there's quite a wide distinction. And if he is trying to suggest to me that a co-operative is not private enterprise, then I don't know what it is, Mr. Chairman.

It's certainly not government enterprise. And that is the standing offer that is there today and whether it will be accepted or not acce pted is a matter for the producers to determine through their respective organizations and agencies. It's not for this government to decide. To the extent that it doesn't occur we will have not lost anything as a government other than we will have a capital supply to reallocate capital supply that has been commit ted to the project. So it's a matter of allocating those funds to other uses , and we are not going to be concerned beyond that . Now what about the consumer interest.

The Member for Lakeside makes a point of he being solely and preoccupied so much with the consumer interest, and you know I find that astonishing in the light of the fact that he, himself took the report of the Milk Control Board, which highlighted the fact that Manitoba's consumers were enjoying the lowest price of milk of any province in Canada . He made that point himself in the debate yesterday or today, perhaps both days, and now he is suggesting that somehow, somehow that we are going to destroy that , or that is what we are doing, and he is suggesting somehow , Mr.

Chairman , that it is the private dairy processing industry that has brought about the lowest price to Manitoba consumers. Well I can tell him that the private proc essing industry is screaming at the fact that the Milk Control Board has done an analysis of their cost of production and has reduced their margins in the last two years. --(Inter je ction)-- As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I can show him some interesting cor respondence from some of the processing industry which have indicated that the Milk Control Board was not operating in the interests of keeping them alive or viable.

Not-. withstanding the fact that the Milk Control Board has found that their profit position has been very very healthy. And there was an awful lot of fat that could be trimmed and which was trimmed, which was trimmed. They are operating at lower margins today than they were when my friends opposite were the gov ernment, and that is part of the reason why we are able to show a good return to the producers for milk shipped to the plants in Manitoba, at the same time we're able to show that we have the lowest priced milk product in Canada.

That is how that is brought about, simply through the control of the Milk Control Board and not through the efforts of the private processing industry, which the Member for Lakeside is trying to suggest to us here this afternoon. It has nothing to do with the efforts or the existence, or non-existence if you like, of the processing industry. It has simply to do with a more efficient approach on the part of the Milk Control Board in the application of it's responsibilities to the government of this province and to the people of Manitoba.

And then he had to mention northern milk prices , and you know that is the supreme irony, Mr. Chairman, becaus e this government took great pains in the last two years to develop a pro gram which would reduce the price of milk to Northern Manitoba in some communities by as much as 40 to 50 percent. And that's the Triple Milk Program. And the Member for Lakeside is suggesting that milk is going to be 90 cents . I want to tell him that it was two years ago.

It was over $1. 00 in Northern Manitoba two years ago , and we were able to bring reductions in the price of milk to Northern Manitoba through the efforts of the government and the Milk Control Board. All of the arguments he presents, Mr. Chairman , are absolutely and completely false and without any foundation whatever. And it is going to be the continuing policy, Mr. Chairman , to protect the interests of both the producers and the consumers of milk in this province. --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order pleas e. Resolution 8(a). The Honourable Member for Rock Lake.

March 5, 1976 713 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. ElNARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, there's just a few minutes at our disposal. The Minister he talked about the dairy industry and I think we tried to put forth to him a difference in views insofar as we were concerned on this side of the House, and the Minister is faced with the fact that if he doesn't use the DREE grant in Crocus Food Plant to be built at Selkirk, the money is lost and the farmers will be that much poorer for it. Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest to the Minister that if he really wanted to help the dairy industry, help the farmers , and continue to help the consumer with the lowest priced milk in Manitoba, he could have probably found assistance from the Federal Govern ment to assist all the processing plants in the Province of Manitoba. And the Minister is saying that he has not denied the processing plants the right to either expand or improve the facilities so that they could carry on the functions they were set up to do . I want to say the Minister has already denied Manco to be able to build in Winkler.

He has already denied • • • MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of privilege has been raised by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: That statement is not correct. There has been no such occurrence. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. ElNARSON: Mr. Chairman, that's a debatable point. But I can say to him this, that when Mountview Dairies were operating at Pilot Mound they were refused a licence to be able to put in equipment to process their whey. That was denied, Mr.

Chairman, and I challenge the Minister to stand up on that particular point, becaus e I brought this matter up with him last year during the agricultural debate, and I was accus ing him then. I posed a se ries of questions to the Minis ter at that time, and, Mr. Chairman, while we can't call an individual or a member a liar, I want to say - and that cannot be done, Mr. Chairman - but I want to say, Mr. Chairman , that the Minister of Agriculture at that time was not giving the true facts to the questions that I posed to him in regard to the dairy operation at Pilot Mound. I want to say, Mr. Chairman ••• MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, pleas e. The hour set aside for Private Memb ers' Hour having arri ved, Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your Committee has considered certain resolutions, reports prog ress and asks leave to sit again. lN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKlNS : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Rad isson, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I believe that there is a general disposition not to proceed to Private Members' Hour this afternoon. I'd like to indicate that next week we are proceeding on the same principles as this week. We will deal with the bills as they appear on the Order Paper, and we will follow with the Estimates of the Minister of Agriculture, followed by the Minister for Urban Affairs , followed by the Minister for Northern Affairs. That's as far as I've gone at the moment. I would like the Opposition to indicate to me which committee they would be prepared to start considering in a separate Supply Committee outside of the House.

A MEMBER: Don't forget the committee, Monday , Tuesday and Wednes day . MR. GREEN: Yes , and Monday and Tuesday , of cou rse, we're in Industrial Relations Committee. Mr. Speaker, I would move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake that the House do now adj ourn. MOTION pres ented and carried. ' MR. SPEAKER: The House is acc ordingly adj ourned and stands adj ourned until 2:30 Monday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1b9ca54503a7f691447a34348a205bde4bfac51f

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