LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 19 March, 1982 Time -10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Prese nting Petition s ... Reading and Receiving Petitions PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Ho noura ble Memb er for Flin Flon. MR. JERRY T. STORIE (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Com mittee of Su pply has adopted certain resolu­ tion s, di rects me to report the same. and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Ho nourable Member for Ri ver East. that the repor t of the Comm ittee be received.

MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho noura ble Mini ster of Eco­ nomic Developm ent. HON. MURIEL SMITH (Osborne): A Mini ste rial Statement, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure today to inform the Ho use that I will shortly be ho lding a press conference to in itiate a major. national, co-operative program dir ected at replacing or substit u ting Canadian-made prod ucts for imp or ted goo ds.

This in itiative by officials of my department is tar­ geted at the $2.25 billion of purchases made by tax­ fund ed institutions in this country, of which approxi­ mately two-th ir ds are currently impo rted. Our goal for this pr og ram is to redirect 10 percent of this expendi­ ture to Canadian sources and that, Mr. Speaker. could mean as many as 1,200 new job s for this country. A sizable share which we hope will occur in Mani toba.

The focal point of this progr am. a major oppor tu nitie s trade show. scheduled for Winnip eg this October will, I believe. encourage many of the smaller firms in Manitoba to pursue this market agg ressively. I would like to assure the House that this is a program which we view as the first step towards eventually inc reasing the economic benefits which the expend iture of gov ernme nt-funded institu tions can create for the benefit of the people of this country and Man itobans di rectly.

It is also encourag ing to see how well the province's territories and the Federal Governme nt can work together on specific op por tun ities for the benefit of all. I would invite all member s to join the gov ernment in su pp orti ng this project. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Stur­ geon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr . Speaker.

I'm very pleased that the Mini ster of Eco­ nomic Development and the government is conti nu­ ing a program which was started at least a year-and-a­ half ago. one that was mentioned by the Leader of the Op position in the Throne Speech as had been worked on in this pro vince for a long time. As a matter of fact, the show that the Mini ster is speaking of will be the third of such shows that we have had in Winnip eg. The Im port Replacemen t Show on medical pro­ ducts was held last year in the pro vince and then the manufacturi ng show was held last year in the pro­ vince. There are letters on file, Mr.

Speaker , from five other Min isters of Economic Development of other pro vinces who wrote to us thanking Man itoba for tak­ ing the ini tiatives to start the Im port Replacement Show. We had tremendo us co-operation from the other pr ovinces and I'm sincer ely happ y that co­ oper ation is contin uing from the other provinces and the Impor t Rep lacement Program will be carried on in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Finance. HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Th ank you. Mr .

Speaker , I have a Provincial Tax Com parison as of February 1, 1982. which I would like distributed to the mem bers. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . .. Introduction of Bi lls. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Or al Quest ion s, may I dir ect the attention of honoura ble mem bers to the gallery where we have pr esent some of the curlers who are com peti ng in the 11 th An nual Western Can­ ada Blind Bonspiel. It's the first time this event has been held in the pro vince and it is being held in Beausejour this weekend.

Each province is repre­ sented by two rinks and the two Manitoba skip s are both from Winn ipeg, Dan Monc hak and Norman Lyons. 639 We also have present 81 students of Gr ade 5 stand­ ing of the Ryerson School. These students are under the dir ection of Ms. Judy McDonald and the school is located in the constituency of the Hono urable Memb er for St. No rbert. On behalf of all the mem bers of the Assembly, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opp ositi on. MR. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Mr .

Speaker, yesterday, the Hono urable Mini ster of Fi nance took as notice a ques tion from the Opp osit ion House Leader requesting information or confirma tion from the Mini ster of Finance that a figure apparently used by the Fir st Min ister in a speech that he made at

19 March, 1982 Brandon the nigh t previous was accurate; namely, that Man itoba was going to suffer at least $100 milli on in federal cutbacks. Is the Mini ster of Fin ance able to confirm that statement to the Ho use, the statement that was made by the Fir st Mini ster apparently in Brandon? MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, based on the best information available pr ior to the Fi rst Min ister's Conference last month, Manitoba was expected to receive $339. 7 mill ion in EPF, Established Program Financing, cash paymen ts from the Federal Govern ment and $480.1 mi llion in equalization for a total of $819.8 mi llion for the 1982-83 year, if the current arrangemen ts remained unchang ed.

Based on the latest federal estimates of what Mani­ toba will receive, if the federal EPF and equalization cutback pr oposals are impl emen ted in thei r current modi fied form, our provi nce will receive 287.9 mil lion in EPF cash paymen ts and 431 million in equalization for a total of $718.9 mil lion for 1982-83. Th is rep res­ ents an over all cutback of 51.8 mi llion in EPF and 49.1 milli on in equalization for a total of $100.9 million. I should add that a nu mber of other factors also have a bearing on the net loss calculations.

Fir stly, some losses relative to the Februar y 2 situa­ tion in the or der of approxima tely $20 mi llion wou ld have occu rred und er the cur rent equalization system due to revised popu lation information associated with the 1981 census. Secondly, the federal bud get proposals includ ed measu res which have the effect of increasing pro vin­ cial tax revenue by appro xim ately $31 mill ion for the 1982-83 year. Thir dly, revised federal estimates of certain revenue sou rces in 1982-83 would have the effect of further reducing equalization paymen ts under the current system.

My department is in the proce ss of prepari ng revised estim ates of the cutbacks facing our provi nce, as a result of the federa l pr opo sals as modif ied to date, taking into account the im pacts of the prelimi ­ nary census and the various revenue adjus tmen ts in clud ed in the revised federal forecasts of equaliza­ tion un der its five-prov ince standard idea.

It will, of cou rse, be help fu l if the Federal Governm ent provi des a comple te set of information on the im pacts of its proposals with respect to equalization EPF and other areas when it presents its fiscal arrangem ents pack­ age to Parliament I un derstand that may well happen today. In the event that it chooses not to provide those Esti mates, I will make every effort to ensur e that my department's Estim ates are provided to every mem ber when they become available.

Finally, although we appear to have made some prog ress with the Federal Government dur ing the cou rse of the negotia tions to date, we remain particu­ larly conc erned with the lon ger-term impl icatio ns of the federal propo sals and will conti nue to present our case to the Federal Min ister and his officials in the hope that further adjustments can be made. In fact, ju st thi s mor ning I sent a telegram to the Federal Mini ster of Finance asking for a meeting with him when he comes to Winnip eg tomorrow for what I und erstand to be a fund-rai sing event. 640 MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Op posit ion. MR. LYON: Mr . Sp eaker, we of cour se shar e the con­ cern that the Mini ster of Fina nce has expr essed with respect to the uni lateral decisions that are being made by the Federal Govern me nt with respect to established program financing and with respect to equalization and we welcome the detailed statement that the Mini ster has made in response to the question.

I desire to attract his attenti on, however, to the question that was asked yesterday by the Opp osition Hous e Leader; namely, was the Mi nister not in a posi­ tion to gi ve thi s information when he was asked a few days ago or why did he have to gi ve that kind of a statement thi s mor ning after the statement had been made not to this Hous e, but the statement made by the First Mini ster to the Br andon Chamb er of Com­ merce which, unless I'm mistaken, is not an adjun ct or a comm ittee of this Legislature? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Sp eaker, I cou ld go into a history of whe n these particular num bers started com ing forth. When we took office, the num bers were 160 mi llion without that $20 milli on change in popu la­ tion numb ers because we di dn 't know about that. It was a prelimi nary situation then ; we have si nce then worked on di fferent figur es. We weren't sur e and still are not su re, as I said in this answer, of the exact num bers and won't be until the bill is presented in Parliam ent and maybe we won' t be even then if we don't get sufficient information with it.

Bu t, what I said yesterday was that I didn' t know what the Fir st Mini ster had said in Br andon. The Ho use Leader for the Op position referred to a specific statement which he said the Prem ier had made. I simply said I wasn't aware of that particular state­ ment, I would take the que stion as notice and come back thi s morning with as much information as I could possibly supply to the House and sur ely I have done that. MR. l YON: Mr . Sp eaker, the rather interes ting statement that the Mini ster of Fin ance has ju st made, of cour se, leads to another ques tion.

Was he not aware that the Fir st Mini ster of this provi nce was to be making this financial statement to the Br andon Cham ber of Com merce or is he telling us, ind eed, Mr. Speaker, that he's still not aware of what his Fir st Mini ster said to the Brandon Chamb er of Commer ce? If not, I would refer him to the speak ing notes from that speec h, refer him to page 5 of those speaking notes, and about half way down he 'll see what the speaking notes contained. The poin t of the ques tion, Mr .

Sp eaker, put by the Op position House Leader, reiterated by me is th is, Is it not better practice, when asked forth is information in the Hou se to giv e it rather than to have other mem bers of the Treasury Bench giving it to organ izations out­ side of thi s Legislature? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Speaker, I don' t know how the Leader of the Op position op erated when he was Premier , but I can assur e him that my Premier doesn't requ ire the vetting of every particular statement he makes by mem bers of his Cabine t before he makes

the statement. -(I nterjec tion)- Look at the troubl e he got you into. Mr . Sp eaker, the statemen t that the Leader of the Op posi tion refers to is a statement that says there will be losses of more than $100 million. That particular statement does not refer to a specific year, although I have referred to a specific year. That statemen t refers to losses of more than $100 million. In fact, we believe that the losses will be muc h gr eater than that over the next 5 years. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I am su re, Sir , you would not wish us to get into a de bate as to a document or a speech that was gi ven by the Fir st Min ister out side of this Ho use, but I refer my honour able friend to page 5 of that add ress and I sugge st that he read what hi s Fir st Min ister is sayin g from time to ti me. They maybe perhaps, Sir , can get their act toge ther so that the Fi rst Mini ster and the Mini ster of Finance will kno w when they're asked que stion s in this Hou se, a little bit of forthri ghtness, a little bit of candour would he lp.

I'm mer ely sugge sti ng to the Min ister asking the question that hereafter, would it not be better practice to answer that type of question in the House instead of dodg ing it, as the Min ister did the other day, and allowing the Fir st Min ister to make this statement outside of the Ho use, a statement that is sign ificant for the financial and fiscal plannin g of this pr ovin ce? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Speaker, the particular informa tion that I pro vided this mor nin g is not infor­ mation that I carry around in my head without looking at num bers.

There's 339. 7 million on EPF, there's 480.1 mil lio n on Equaliza tion, there's 819.8 million for the next year in total. We can go thro ug h those num bers again but, Mr. Sp eaker, if the Memb er for Tur tle Moun tain really wanted that informati on, I could have had it for him here yesterday if he would have gi ven me half-an- hour 's notice so I could have that detailed informa ti on available for him. I gave that detailed informa tion this morn ing at the earliest pos­ sible oppo rtun ity. MR. l YON: Mr.

Sp eaker, to remind the Honour able Mini ster of Fi nance, the original que stion was asked some days ago of the Min ister of Fi nance and he said at that time he could not gi ve the figur e, or words to that effect. We'll check Hansard. The poin t at issue is this, Mr.

Sp eaker, to get back to the first que stion, can the Min ister of Fi nance confirm today what the Fir st Mini ster allegedly said in the spe akin g notes that he used when he spoke to the Brandon Ch amber of Com merce on Wednesday, March 17, where in he said, "Yet Man itoba is sti ll going to suffer at least $100 mil lion in federal cutbacks," and he can take it as havi ng been said in the context of 1982-83 federal revenue s to Man itoba are to be so and so. Can the Min ister confirm that statement made by the Fir st Mini ster last Wednesday in Br andon to the Br andon Cha mber of Commer ce? MR.

SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can confirm that the Fi rst Mini ster did indeed make that statement. I can also confirm the answer that I pre­ viously gave which had a numb er of specific s in it regard ing the popula tion adjustment. It had the spe- 641 1982 cities reg arding the budge t propo sals and it is an Estimate. We expect that we have, we hope that we have defi nitely come close to recouping up to $60 mi llio n that we would have lost had we had that go vernment in office doing the nego tiating sinc e November. That is what was on the table when we took office.

Now we've come a long way for Manitobans. We haven't come as far as we would like. We would like a much larger con cession from the Federal Govern­ ment. We can go through that again. We would prefer to retain the previous system of equ alization payme nts and established program financ e paymen ts. If we can't have that, then we would prefer the agreement that the Fir st Min isters arrived at, at the ir conference last mon th and if we can't have that, then the five-pro vinc e average is cer­ tainly better than the pro posed Ontario form ula which was on the table in Nove mber of 1981.

I don't know how I can make it mor e clear to the Leader of the Op position that we have made some prog ress, but we haven't made eno ugh. MR. LYON: Mr.

Sp eaker, without in any way wanting to get into my ho nour able frien d's power s of persua­ sion or powers of negotiation which would be a topic in itself, can the Mini ster simp ly confirm that the stateme nt that the Fi rst Min ister made to the Br andon Ch amber of Comm erce, Wednesday nig ht last, of the $100 millio n-shortfa ll in federal fu nds is a true state­ ment? -(I nterjection)- Can I then dir ect my ques­ tion, Sir , to the Fi rst Min ister and say, can the Fir st Min ister confirm that the statement that he made to the Br andon Ch amber of Commer ce, Wed nesday nig ht last, yet Man itoba is sti ll going to suffer at least $100 million in federal cutbacks, will the Fir st Min ister merely confirm that statement is true accord ing to the best knowledge that he has?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Fi rst Mini ster. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk}: Mr. Speaker, the statemen t that I made in Br andon is not in con sist­ ent with the statements that have been on nu merous occasions previou sly based upon the estimates of our discussion s of a few weeks ago. Mr. Speaker, what I am noti ng is some sensitiv ity on the part of the Op po­ sition to publi c discussion outside this Ch amber. Let me mention, Mr.

Speaker, that although the Op posi­ tion wh ile they were in gov ernme nt may have avoided public discussion outside this Ch amber, this govern­ ment does not intend to avoid public discu ssion out­ side this Ch amber. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Ho nour able Leader of the Op posi tion. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, after that display of "little wet henism," I wonder if the Fi rst Mini ster would not confirm to the Hou se, Mr.

Sp eaker, and would he not confirm that it is good practice for the Ho use when a Min ister of the Crown is asked a question in the Ho use that he sh ould attempt to answer it in the Hou se rather than to not answer it and then have the answer gi ven out side of the Ho use? That was the poin t of que stion.

Friday, 19 March, 1982 MR. PAWLEY: I don' t really know what all the ado is by the Leader of the Op posi tion. The information that, indeed , I provided to the Brandon Ch amber of Com­ merce is information that I un derstand has been pub­ licly com mented upon for some ti me.

I say to the Leader of the Op posit ion, it in deed would be good pr actice if mem bers across the way want information a particular day of detailed nature to provide advanced notice to the Mini ster so that the Min ister can in deed provide that informa tion in the Ho use on the day that the question is posed so that the Leader of the Op po­ sition may very well wish to discuss with his col­ leagues if they are anxio us to receive informa ti on on the precise day that the question is posed of provi ding the courtesy of some advanced notice to the Min ister involved. MR. LYON: Mr .

Sp eaker, I th ank the Fi rst Min ister for his comment ary. I can assure him that we will always attempt to show whatever courtesy we can in that regard because from time to time honourable mem bers of the govern me nt when they were in Op posi tion, where they will be again before too long, from time to time showed that court esy to us and it's appr eciated. The poin t of the question very simp ly though, Mr .

Sp eaker, is this, and I w ou ld request without carryin g the matter any further, that the Fi rst Min ister read Hansard of the last few days to see the poin t of the question and would he not confirm as a general pro­ positi on that it is better practice for statements of that nature to be made in the Ho use, particularly when the question has previously been asked and the answer denied in the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Ener gy and Mi nes. HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Mr .

Speaker, on March 2, I was asked by memb ers oppo site, the Memb er for For t Garry and I believe the Memb er for Turtle Mount ain, to ind icate whether in fact the pre­ vious gov ernment had in deed made statements out­ side the Ho use when in fact they could have been made in the House. I was asked to look into that and provide some documentation on my statement that they in fact had made statements ou tside of the House when they should have made them in the Ho use and I di dn' t have that much time to do that much research on th is, Mr.

Speaker, but a quick look at 1978 Hansard indi cates that there were four instances within the period of about a mo nth-and-a-half. Mr. Speaker, the first one occurred on Mo nday, May 29, 1978, when I raised the matter of privi lege. It was Parasiuk from Transcona raising a matter of privi lege with respect to the former Min ister of Ind ustry and Com merce. I raised the matter of privi lege and that I had, at that ti me, been asking questions in Estim ates about the future role of Leaf Rapids.

I had received no information within Estimates, and yet I found that the Min ister at that time and that govern ment had issued a press release to the press just pr ior to that Estimates' meeti ng, Mr . Speaker, and I wasn't able to get infor­ mation from him even though he had issued a press release outside the House. I raised that as a matter of pr ivi lege. It is documented; it's on page 2767 of Hansard. 642 Th en, Mr. Speaker, on May 10, 1978, Mr . McBr yde raised the matter of privil ege.

It appears some time yesterday that the Min ister of Nor thern Affairs in the Con servative govern ment made an announcemen t ou tside the House in regard to the Nor thern Youth Emp loyment Program, Mr . Speaker. There's another instance that is documented, Mr. Sp eaker; it's on page 1999. Mr. Speaker, on Thursday, July 13, 1978, Mr. Des­ jardins raised a poin t of privi lege with the then Min is­ ter of Health regard ing the questions that he had been raising in question period and he found out that he wasn't getting answers in the Ho use, but there was a press statement that had been made ou tside the House.

The date of that, Mr . Sp eaker, was Thursday, July 13, 1978, page 5044, Mr. Sp eaker. Mr. Speaker, on June 23, 1978, Mr. Green raised a question of privi lege in that he had been asking the go vernment whether in fact the Min ister of Educa tion at that time was going to bring in legis lation regard ing publicly -suppor ted pri vate schools. He was getting no answers from memb ers of the Con servative govern men t at that time, Mr. Speaker, and he found out that a bill was introduced, but prior to the intro­ duc tion, a press release had been handed out to the press. He had been asked questions by the press.

Mr . Sp eaker. I find th is feigne d indi gn ation on the part of the Con servative gove rnme nt rather surprisi ng, Mr. Speaker, in the light of the documentation I've brought to the m. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, now that we have had some ind ication that the gov ernment has some glimm er of un derstan ding of the usual courtesies that apply in the Ho use with respect to informa tion being gi ven when the question is asked, can we have a confir ma­ tion from the Fi rst Minis ter without him getting his feathers all wet again that he will instruct the memb ers of the Treasury Bench to obey the rule, Mr.

Sp eaker, that the Min ister of Ener gy and Mi nes seems to be all a flutter about all of a sudden. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, I want to assure the Leader of the Op position that I will ind eed instruct the memb ers of the Treasury Board to avoid at all costs the kind of precedent that was established during the four years of the prev ious govern ment in the Pro vince of Man itoba, and we' ll do our utmost. There will be time to time, Mr.

Speaker, when in deed there will be ind iscretion, whether it be across the way or on th is side, that does occur, but we will do our best to min im­ ize the type of cond uct that was just descri bed so well by the Min ister of Ener gy. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, can the Minis ter of Min es and En ergy assure the House that he is spe nding some of his time work ing on the aluminum smelter, on the Western Power Grid, on the Potash Project and other major economic enterpris es of that kind for the people of Man itoba, instead of spending all of it thumbing through old issues of Hansard and amusing hi mself with counter­ ing de bate in this Ch amber on a super ficial level? It's mor e im por tant, Mr . Speaker, that he devote part of his time - if he's over worked, then perhaps the Fi rst Min ister would create an additional post in the Cabinet

19 March, 1982 and have one Min ister appoi nted simply to read ing old Hans ards and dealing with those issue s while the Min ister of Mi nes and En ergy gets down to dealing with the im portant busi ness at hand for the people of Manitoba. MR. PARASIUK: I'd like to gi ve an answer to that nonq uestion, Mr. Speaker, whic h went on for about two min utes. I was respo nding di rectly to a question that had been raised by the former Min ister of Health in regard to his past ind iscr etions or any other ind is­ cretions on the part of the former Con servative govern ment.

I personally didn 't spend any time doing this. I only had someone look at about one month of activity of the previous gove rnmen t. Mr. Speaker, hav­ ing found four very clear examp les I deci ded that I'd have to bring in a crane with all the docume ntation showing all the past abuses of privi leges of the Ho use by the past Cons ervative govern ment, and I decided to make my point but not bring in all the docu me nta­ tion showing all of their ind iscretions . MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) MERCIER (St. Norbert): Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Fi rst Min ister.

Mr .

Sp eaker, in view of the decision of the Cit y of Win­ nip eg Executive Comm ittee to recommend to City Council, next Wednesday, a 15.3 percent in crease in proper ty tax rates, costing the average Winnip eg hom eowner approxi mately $95, in view of the Win­ nip eg School Board Division 's increase of $95 for the average taxpayer in the Cit y of Winnip eg School Di v­ ision, and in view of NOP School Trus tee's And y Rob ertson's statemen t that the Pro vincial Govern­ ment is giving with the one hand and taking with the other, would the Fir st Mini ster now admit that he mi sled the people of Manitoba when he gu aranteed that the NOP party wou ld ease the pro perty tax bur den if elected?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Fi rst Min ister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, if the former Min ister would have listened to the statemen t by the Min ister for Ur ban Affairs when the Min ister of Ur ban Affairs outli ned to this Hous e, the gr ants and the assistance that was indeed being provided to the City of Win­ nip eg, a level of assistance that I am qui te proud of in view of the deficit that we have inhe rited from the previous gov ernm ent and the fiscal transfer of cut­ backs that we've spoken of earlier this morning, and com pare that with the kin d of incr eases that were provided in '78, '79 and '80, this govern ment ind eed has done a reasonably good job un der very very diffi­ cult circums tances of ensuring that there be not an un due bur den placed upon the ratepayers of the Ci ty of Winnip eg at this time.

MR. MERCIER: Mr . Sp eaker, the fact rema ins that the NOP party mi sled the pe ople of Manit oba in thei r promis es last fall. My sup plement ary question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Min ister of Fi nance. In view of the Premi er's state­ ments that taxes will be in creasing this year in Mani - toba, can he confirm the advice that he apparently gave to Peter Warren of CJOB that taxes, including sales tax, should be incr eased in the first year of their govern men t in the hop es that people will forget about the incr ease by the time of the next election. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Fin ance. MR.

SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, we had a very sim­ ilar question yesterday mornin g. I explai ned to peo ple who, although they've been in go vern men t for four years, don' t seem to kno w that Bud get informa tion doesn't get out before Bu dget day. I will tell them again, that is a fact; on Bud get day you will find out what, if any, tax changes there will be in the Provi nce of Manitoba. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I wasn't asking the memb er how much the taxes would be incr eased, I was asking him to confirm his advice that the taxes should be in creased in the fi rst year so that the voters will forget about their actions by the time of the next election. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. That was advice that was gi ven to me by a news broadcas­ ter and it was advice that he thought was sensible. If the Mem ber for St. Norbert views that as sensible advice then let him stand up and so say. If he feels that it is not sensi ble advice let him do with it wh atever he chooses to do. 643 MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Sp eaker, I wou ld ur ge then the Min ister of Fi nance to do what we did when we were elected and that was to reduce taxes in Manitoba. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Sp eaker, I, unl ike the Min is­ ter of Ener gy and Mi nes, don't have all the Hansards before me, but I refer the former Attorney-General to the di scussions we had about the hug e and in equita­ ble tax in creases to the poeple in Ri ver East School Division because of the fact that govern ment wanted to set up and shift the tax bu rden from tho se who have little - sh ift from the rich to the poor. That's what happ ened.

They put the tax bur den on th ose who had less; that's what they were doing. I wou ld refer him and the former Fir st Min ister to the change s in Prop­ erty Tax Credits and Cost-of- livi ng Credits which put thousands of sen ior citizens in a position wh ere they received less in those credits, wher e they put thou­ sands of people who were farmers and low-wage earners in a position where they were receiving less in credits. That is the kind of govern ment they had, and for that memb er to stand up in this Ho use this morn­ ing and suggest the y were lower ing taxes, that is absurd. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I'm not sur e that mem bers are using question period for its proper purpose. I wou ld ask me mbers to consi der that matter. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, in view of the fact that nu merous taxes were in fact decr eased by our gov ernment and in view of the fact that appr oxi mately five of all of the school divisions in Manit oba taxes

Friday, 19 March, 1982 went up last year and all of the others went down, is he now taking the position that all school divisions in Manitoba should have a decrease in edu cation taxes this year and, if so, when is he going to imp lement that in stead of giving on the one hand and takin g on the other as they've done in the Wi nnipeg School Division, resu lting in the mass ive tax incr ease that taxpayers and average taxpayers in the City of Winni­ peg are facing this year? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Speaker, it goes without say­ ing that I fully suppor t the pr oposal put forth to this Ho use by the Minister of Edu cation within the last few weeks for edu cation financing in the Province of Mani toba. I believe it was an excellent proposal; it was the best that we could do un der the very difficult circ ums tances left to us by that group when they left office. We're fortunate in this province that they did leave office before things got even worse. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I wonder if I mig ht interr upt the proceedings ju st for a mome nt to intro­ du ce two school group s in the gallery. We have with us 26 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing from the Shamr ock School. The students are und er the direction of Mr . Tony Rodr igue s. The school is in the constituency of the Honou rable Member for Niakwa. Ther e are also 45 stude nts of Grade 10 and 11 standing from Miles Macdo nnell Col legiate. The stu­ dents are und er the direction of Mr. Bug era and Mr . Peters. The school is in the con stituency of the Hon­ ourable Minister of Fi nance.

On behalf of all the mem bers, we welcome you here this morning. The Honour able Memb er for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD {Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. My question is for the Minister respons i­ ble for the Manitoba Telephone System: has the Min­ ister had the oppor tu nity si nce March 11 to make himself aware of the press release put out by the ML A for Thom pson regarding television service? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Com­ munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, I still haven't read the honour able mem ber's press release, but I can advise the Mem ber for Pem­ bina, the former Minister respons ible for MTS, that in respons e to his question about satellite dishes in Thomp son, that the MTS is in the process of providing those pieces of equip ment to a customer, namely the cable operator in Thomps on. I might also add, Mr .

Sp eaker, an answer to another question that the honour able mem ber asked me a couple of days ago with regard to MTS acquiring new office space either by pur chase or construc tion, and I can advise the memb er that ther e are pr eliminar y dis- 644 cussions going on, and ther e wi ll be contin uing dis­ cussions conduc ted in the next few weeks, the next few months. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm pleased with now that the Minister kno ws he instruc ted MTS to install a second dish in Thom pson for the receipt of US SatCom signals, and in view of the fact that the Minister yesterday in dicated he had no new agree­ ment or arrangement with the Federal Department of Commu nications or the Federal Minister, wi ll the Min­ ister now formally endor se the open- skies policy along with the nine other provinces that are adher ­ ence to that open-sky policy in regards to the TVRO satellite dish ownership iss ue? MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, we're int erested with get­ ting on with the job of resp onding to the needs of peo ple all over Manitoba, and the people in No rthern Manitoba, incl uding Thom pson and Flin Flon, have certain desires in the case of television sign als.

MTS in accordance with its long -standing policy, is pre­ pared to supply equipment to cable operators in this province and they, as a major utility, are simply in the process of sup plying that equipment and we are sim ply doing as we said dur ing the el ection cam­ paig n, that we wo uld suppor t the cable ope rators in their desire to supply the needs of the people in those com mu nities. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Certainly, Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House as when we were in govern ment, endor se that freedom of choice for Northern Manitobans and we had made very defin­ itive arrangeme nts to accommo date that, and that is the natur e of my questions for the Minister today and specifically which he di dn't answer. Is he prepar ed to end orse the ope n-skies policy of the previous admi nistration and nine other provincial governm ents?

Secondly, has he to date made that rep resentation to the Federal Minister as in reference to the Federal Minister 's December 31 press release on the liberali­ zation of the ownership of these television receive­ only dis hes? Has the Minister com municated the pro­ vince's end orsation of the ope n-skies policy? No. 2, the province's dissatisfaction with the scope of the libera lization of the ownership po licies annou nced by his federal cou nterpart on Decem ber 31? That que stion I posed to the Minister on March 11 and he un der took to in vestigate it.

Has he com mu ni­ cated with the Federal Govern ment ind icating his dis­ satisfaction, the pr ovince's dissatisfaction with that policy change by the Federal Gove rnment? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I don' t know whe ther I can answer that honour able memb er's question because I'm not quite clear on what the honour able mem ber's open-sk ies policy has been precisely. It's a rather vague term and I don't know whether we can debate or answer questions that do hinge on rather vague gen eralizations. So I simpl y say, Mr . Sp eaker, our job is to serve the needs of the people of Manitoba.

Apart from any pol­ icy pr onounc eme nts or positions that the honour able mem ber had taken in the past, we are proceeding with

19 March, 1982 the job of looking after the people in No rthern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr . Speaker, on March 16 I was asked a question by the Honourable Memb er for Rhin eland and again the same question by the Memb er for Fort Garry yester­ day, that is in regard to the ambu lance at the shoo ting at the Mon tcalm Hotel on Saturday the 13th. This is the in formation that was obtained from the Ambu lance Central Dispatch.

The ambu lance from Winnip eg Ambu lance Servi­ ces arrived at the scene at 12 :23 a.m. and imm ed iately took the patient to the Vic toria Gen eral Hospital arriv­ ing ther e in fou r min utes or at 12 :27 a.m. Su bse­ quently, the patient was transferred to the St. Boni ­ face Gener al Hospit al. This transfer took 12 minu tes. Th at is, they left the Victoria Ho spital at 1 :29 a.m. and arrived at the St. Bon iface Ho spital at 1: 41 a.m. The following information was obtained from the Victoria General Ho spital, Em ergency Department. The patient was transferred from the Vic toria General Ho spital to the St.

Bon iface Hos pital because the attending physician was of the opinion that the patient requir ed chest sur gery in volvi ng the use of equi pment tha t is located in the St. Bon iface Ho spital and usually used for open-he art sur gery. The Victoria Hospital does not have this particular equip ment. MR. SHERMAN: I thank the Honour able Min ister for that in forma tion, Mr. Sp eaker. I'd like to take it und er consid eration over the cou rse of the next day or two.

I have no imm ediate question following from his infor­ mation, but while I'm on my feet I would like to ask the Min ister whe ther he can confirm tha t 115 of 15 0 doc­ tors in Western Manit oba will be closing their offices on Mo nday? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sur e that the honour able mem ber kno ws as much as I do. I don't get any in formati on other than what was in the paper about that. I read the same statement: I wasn't giving any informa tion by the MMA. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minis ter then advise whether, on the basis of that kind of indication and certainly the Manitoba Health Services Com mis­ sion mu st be moni toring those kinds of ind ications. if there are any conti ngenc y plans that are intended by the govern ment or by the commis sion to protect patients against any difficu lties that arise from that kind of action? MR. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr. Sp eaker, it will be moni­ tored when onc e it's happened. As far as the mon itor­ ing the standards, I feel that it is the responsi bility of the Col lege of Physicians.

I've had di scussion with them yesterday and I wrote them a letter and we've been in commun ication with them in asking them to moni tor the standard; to make sur e that the standar d are high quality, do not suffer and we're getting full co-operation from them. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. 645 The time of Oral Questions having ex pir ed, The Honour able Government Ho use Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill No. 4 please? ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING BILL. NO. 4 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GARAGE KEEPERS ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 4, on the pr oposed motion of the Honour able the Attorney -General. Bill No . 4 was adjo urne d by the Honour able Mem ber for Pembina. The Memb er for Pem bina. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, in perus­ ing Bill No. 4 we have some concerns as were menti­ oned briefly by the ML A for St. No rbert on the second

section of that Bill, namely the repealing of the requir ement op posed to The Garage Keepers Act in a or a numb er of conspicuous places in a particular garage. It is our inf ormation, Mr . Sp eaker, that recent amend ments made with in the last year or two to The Garage Keepers Act have been most beneficial to the consumering public; to the peo ple availing them­ selves of services in the garages thr oughout the Prov­ ince of Manitoba. A repealing of the requir ement to host that act is in our view a step in the wrong dir ec­ tion.

We see no need for repealing of that requir ement and ind eed we see some su bstantial difficulties with repealing that requir ement of posting.

Thi s new govern ment and particu larly the Attorney -General, who is I believe a member of the Mani toba Assoc ia­ tion of Righ ts and Liberties has made some signi fi­ cant stateme nts and some frequent statements on his desire to provide informati on, open gove rnmen t; to be in touch with the citizens of Man itoba; to make them aware of what the gov ernment can or cannot do; to make the general public of Manit oba aware of their rig hts and their prote ctions un der the statutes of Manitoba.

Here in one of the very first bills that this Attorney­ Gener al in trodu ces and this new gov ernment intro­ duc es, we see them with the background of wanting to in crease the availability of information to Man ito­ bans, we them attempting to remove a requir ement which provides Man itobans with information as to their righ ts in dealing with certain com mer cial oper a­ tions in the Provi nce of Mani toba.

We find that a very strange div ergenc e from the public pr onounc ement s by the Attorney -Gener al and by mem bers of his gov ernment as to the desirabil ity of having gr eater public information being made available to the peo ple of Manitoba. This raises some additional concerns.

Maybe this first pie ce of legislation is indeed an ind ication that the Attorney-General and his gov ern ment will be attempting to quie tly and thr ough amendmen ts such as we have in the deletion of the requir ement of post­ ing of the Act, The Garage Keepers Act, depriv e in some small way Man itobans the availability of infor­ mation to Man itobans. Then possibly come before

19 March, 1982 this Ho use a year from now in the next session per­ chance and say that Manitobans do not have available in formati on; thei r rig hts are being not fully und er­ stood; their privi leges un der the statues of the prov­ ince are not well enough known.

I am con cerned that at that poi nt in time. the Attorney-G eneral and this new gov ernment may make a major move in creating a new department and a new bureaucracy in the gov ernment along the lines of a gov ernment publi c information service where they will have a referral service on matters of concern to Manitobans; they will staff it with a numb er of people to provide information on the statutes available.

They will jus tify this move by now deleting a requ irement to provide information to Manitobans, turn around some year later and say in formation is not available ther efore we mu st create a brand new depar tment to assur e that Man itobans have that information. It is unne cessary to do that because the onus and the cost of pro viding posting of The Garage Keepers Act in conspicuous places thr oughout the various establish ments, so requir ed to do so un der the pres­ ent statute, is not onerous. The statutes are not costly.

It's not as if it is a mu lti-thousand-dollar investment by the gar age keepers in the Pro vince of Mani toba. It is a very very small in vestment. It is an investment, Mr. Speaker , I sub mit tha t all garage keepers can well afford in Man itoba. It is of imp ortance to them as well because The Garage Keepers Act is no t a one -way Act. It is for the protection of both consu mers and garage keepers.

I find this an extremely strange move for this Attorney-General, this gove rn ment, who have enun ­ ciated on nu merous occasions their desir e to keep Man itobans informed; to provide open gove rnme nt; to pr ovide information and Acts as to govern ment; to make sur e that Manitobans are aware of their rig hts in the Pro vince of Man itoba. wou ld now - as I said earlier in one of its very first pieces of legislation delete a very useful and longs tandin g practice of hav­ ing The Garage Keepers Act posted in the garages thr oughout the Pro vinc e of Man itoba to in form the public of their legis lative rig hts un der that Act.

I think the Attorney-General and his govern men t will have some gr eat deal of di fficu lty in ju stifying why they are deleting that requir ement and in effect depr iving Manitobans of information that is readily available; available at very very minim al cost to the garage keepers for their protection and for the protec­ tion of their consu mers.

That is our major conc ern in Bill No. 4 is why thi s govern ment preaching on the one hand greater access, gr eater information to Man itobans is in the process through this amend ment of depriving Man it­ obans from thei r right to access to certain in formation contained in The Garage Keepers Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney -Gener al. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker. the Honour able Memb er for St.

Norbert and now the Honour able Memb er for Pem bina, I think, have mi sconc eived what in deed was propo sed, namely , to get rid of a perfectly useless in op erative provision and I think there's no point in maint aining in statutes archaic thi ngs which have proved to be ineffective. 646 Ho wever, I wish to thank them for expr essing a concern that I'm prepared to accomm odate, namely, that for what is now -a lthough they haven't adm itted -t hat an ineffective method of commun icating rig hts to persons against whom a lien may be claimed or, in fact, is being claimed, I'm prepared to accommo date that concern, and that I'm deeply concerned that people be made aware of their rig hts by bringing in at commit tee stage an amend ment, or an additional fea­ tur e of this bill, that will replace the proposal to remove the posting of the notice, which as I say and said in open in g, has pr oved to be ine ffective with the requir ement that before a lien can become effective the garage keeper mu st gi ve a simple written notic e to the actual person against whom the lien is being claimed.

And I will be prepared to di scuss that in com mittee with the Ho nour able Memb er for St. No r­ bert and the honour able mem bers op posite, and I think that would be a construc tive way of dealing with what I agree is a problem. I ju st want to make it clear that the noti on, that the re was some hi dden kind of move in remo ving this archaic pro vision, is simply nons ense and I wou ld hope that the mem bers op posite, as we go thr ough this sitting of the Hous e, become mor e construc tive; rather than saying, well what kind of hidden manoeu­ vre is this? That's not particu larly helpfu l.

What we were doing, and what I was pr oposi ng and I am propo sing, as I say, is to take out some thing that has in the fullness of time proved to be ineffective. When is the last time that anyone has actually seen in a garage - and there are so few of them left in any event - a notic e un der The Garage Keepers' Act? You ju st don't find them anymor e. No w what I think I will bring in, and as I say, I thank the mem bers for raising this issue, is an amend ment at commit tee stage so we can di scuss some thing constructive.

Fina lly, with respect to the poin t raised by the Hon­ our able Mem ber for Pem bina about the commun ica­ tion of in formati on, I think that is trem endously im portant to find the ways and means in whi ch I'm not talking about the kind of propaganda we saw too much of, particula rly in 198 1. from the then go vern­ ment to provide straig htforward, objective, non­ opinio nated information about rig hts und er statutes to the people who need that information the most in the best way.

What I'm now saying is, that the best way is not the old form of notice, but a written notic e handed to the person against whom a lien may be claimed. And so, too, we will be looking as was noted in the Thr one Speech at the poss ibil ity, and at the moment it's onl y a possibili ty, of better methods of oral communic ation to those people with respect to whom writ ten informa tion, even in a straig htforward way, does not adequately commun icate to them the rig hts and remedies which they ought to have. But that is a matter for futur e consi deration. So in closing de bate, Mr.

Sp eaker, and urging pas­ sage at Seco nd Read ing and into Commit tee I will be bringing into the comm ittee stage a pr oposal that we can di scuss, and I'm sur e we' ll come to a consensus as to a form of notice whic h will be effective rather than the present ineffective posted noti ce. MOTION presented and carried.

19 March, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Ho use Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr . Speaker , would you call the Pro­ posed Motion, Bill No. 5, standing in the name of Mr. Mercier. BILL NO. 5 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LAW OF PROPERTY ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Memb er for St. Norber t. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Sp eaker, this bill, of cou rse, merely giv es to the cou nty cour t the jur isd iction with respect to partition and sale that the Queen's Bench has in those areas. So, Mr . Sp eaker, it is a wor thwhile amendment to The Law of Prop erty Act in order to avoid extra proce edings or extra expense to the lit­ igants, Mr . Speaker, in matri monial proce edings. I think, Mr.

Speaker, what it does do thou gh is raise the larger issue, the larger issue being that of the possible amalgamation of the Cour t of Queen's Bench and the cou nty cour t into one trial division in Mani­ toba, rather than maint ain ing two separate trial divi­ sions in the pro vinc e. I want to use this opp or tun ity, Mr. Sp eaker, to bring to the attention of the Atto rney-General if he is not already aware, that last sprin g I did refer to the Law Reform Comm ission the question of the possible merger of the count y cour t with the Cour t of Queen's Bench.

The Law Reform Com mi ssion is em barked upon a com prehensiv e review of that qu estion in con­ junc tion and in full consu ltation with the Bar Associa­ tion and the Law Society, and did inde ed, I believe last fall, make trips out to various poin ts in rural Man itoba to di scuss the issue with local bar associations and perso ns who may be affected by such merger in order to obtain their views and im pressions and concerns, Mr. Speaker. Ther e will be concern in the rur al areas, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to maint ain ing a resident ju dge if such a mer ger is to be reco mm end ed, and I wou ld ur ge the Min ister, when he receives that report, Mr. Speaker, to consi der that aspect very carefully. As part of that referral to the Law Refo rm Com mi s­ sion on this whole question of amalgamation of the Cour t of Que en's Bench and cou nty cour t, Mr.

Sp eaker, I also bring to the attention of the Attorn ey­ General that I asked him to very seriously consider the area of Small Claims Cour t services and gi ve con­ sid eration to an impr oved training program for clerks who no w hear tho se types of cases. I ask them to consi der, Mr . Sp eaker, in view of the expense, an ever-incr easin g expense of litigation, Mr.

Sp eaker, an in crease in the ju risdiction of Small Claims Cour ts to $2,0 00 and the pos sibi lity of ha ving some of the mat­ ters heard by, perhaps pr ovi ncial ju dges with perhaps matters under a certain amount, for ex ample, $500 or $1 ,000, being contin ued to be heard by clerks. Mer gers have taken place, Mr. Sp eaker, in Alberta, in New Bru nswick, and I believe, it may have, in fact, now taken place in Saskatchewan, Mr. Sp eaker. So, I think that is really the larger issue that this particular bill raises.

I would antici pate, if I recall correctly, that some tim e later this year the Law Reform Commission will be repor ting on that issue and I am sur e that the Attorney-General will want to consider that report very carefully with a view to possibly have legislation before this Hous e at the next Session of the Leg isla­ tur e. Mr. Speaker, with that larger question being resolved, it wou ld then be unne cessary for us to be consid eri ng small amend ments to these acts, dealing with ju st small aspects of the jur isdictional qu estion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 647 MR.

SPEAKER: Th e Honour able Attorney -Gen eral will be closing debate. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Sp eaker, I would like to thank the Honour able Mem ber for St. No rbert for suppor t­ ing the Bill and for raising, appr op riately, the question of addr essing the larger problem. I am aware, of cou rse, there was referred to the Law Reform Com­ mi ssion the question of fusion of the two princip al federal trial cour ts, the County Cour t and the Cour t of Queen's Bench . In di scussions with chairpe rson of the Law Reform Comm ission , I have asked him, and he has agreed, to giv e this top pri ority.

I would like to bring in legislation, hope fully, by the next Sess ion. I think it is an im portant move. I don 't want to prejudge what the Comm ission will bring in, that's up to the Commi ssion. But I am hop efu l that there will be some construc tive sug gestions that will find supp ort on both sides of the Ho use. I think that we will find that on many of the larger questions having to do with the admin istration of ju stice that ther e's a great deal of common ground between this side of the Ho use and the Opp osition side of the Ho use.

I thank him for his sugges tion with respect to a problem which migh t be raised when we look at fusion for rural areas and tha t certainly will be gi ven a gr eat deal of attention. Again I think we can work co-operatively in resolving some problems there. In deed, the question of Small Claims Cour t which was the last point raised by the Honour able Memb er for St. No rbert is on e, and probably the vexing ques­ tion there of what do you do with the Small Claims Cour t when you have fusion, should we have it.

One of the researchers work ing with this particula r project is wor king specifically on the issue of Small Claims Cour t and is addr essing several alternatives. I don 't want to go into any detail on those alternatives. Ther e are a numb er of possibi lities; one, ind eed, is the pos­ sibili ty of the Pro vincial Cour t Judge taking some jur isd iction in Small Claims, and I'm expr essing no opin ion on that. Another is to up gr ade the present adjudic ative methods, perhaps to use legally-trained persons for small claims and to up the jur isdiction.

A thir d alternative is to look at an arbitration model or a mediation model using legally-trained perso ns on a volu nteer basis. So there are some inno vative, imagi­ native ki nds of thi ngs being looked at to resolve that problem in the context of fusion.

Should it be, for any reason, that fusion of the two trial divisions, Cou nty Cour t and Queen's Bench, canno t take place or can­ not take place as quickly as we would like, we will sti ll addr ess, I hope, the problem of im pro ving the Small Claim s Cour t which has proved to be a useful and low-cost. expedient vehicle for citizens having claims one against the other, and I will certainly take into accoun t some of the sugg estions that have been made if it becomes necessary to bring in a separate

Friday, 19 March, 1982 pie ce of jur isdi ction on the Small Claims Cour t. So with those remarks I wo uld call for the passage and the motio n. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government Hous e Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Sp eaker, would you call the Adjou rned Motion of the Honour able Min ister of Consu mer Affairs on No. 7? Bill NO. 7 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE ARTS COUNCIL ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Ki rk­ field Park. MRS. GERRIE HAMMOND (Kirkfield Park): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. We have reviewed the bill to amend The Man itoba Arts Council Act. The amend ments, on the whole , are the same that were being consi dered by the previous adminis tration, and it is in essence, a hous ekeep ing bill. We certainly welcome any action that will help the Manitoba Arts Council in its work. We are prepared to let the bill go to Comm ittee for consi deration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter will be clos­ ing Debate.

The Honou rable Mini ster of Consu mer and Corpo­ rate Affairs. HON. EUGENE KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks): Yes, Mr . Speaker, I'm glad to hear the comm ents from the Memb er for Kir kfield Park. The bill is basically a ho usekeeping bill, ju st incr easing the size of the cou ncil and cleaning up some other sections of the Act.

As memb ers are aware, the mem bers of the Mani­ toba Arts Council sit without remu neration except for any out-of-pocket expen ses and the Man itoba Arts Counci l's role and function has been incr easing over the past numb er of years and they've had di fficu lty with the pr esent size of the Boar d in dealing with that. So I'm pleased to hear the comm ents from the Memb er for Kir kfield Park and I welcome to go to Com mittee so that we can get the bill passed as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasur e of the House to adopt the motion? MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you call Second Read ing of Bill No. 13? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. 648 SECOND READING Bill NO. 13 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC TRUSTEE ACT MR. PENNER presented Bill No. 13,

An Act to amend The Public Trustee Act for Second Read ing. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Attorney -General. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr . Speaker, thank yo u. At pres­ ent, The Public Trustee Act cont ains no pro vision requir ing an annual report. Mr . Sp eaker, the size of the opera tions of the office of the Public Trus tee has gr own conside rably in recent years. The office now has a comp lement of 51 staff, and an annu al oper ating bud get of appr oxima tely 1.2 mil lion. Mor e to the poi nt, it admin isters approx imately 55,6 00 estates, amounting to close to $40 mil lion in trust fund s.

Although th ere is, appropr iately, an annual audit by the Pro vinci al Aud itor, it is deemed advisable to requir e a mor e compr ehensiv e annu al report for tabling in the Assem bly, and that's the pur pose of this Bill. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney -Gener al.

In view of the fact that the Attorney -Ge neral's Department is not requir ed to make a report - I think being the only depar tment of all of the departments not requir ed to make a repo rt, and I'm not advocating, particularly, that they make a repo rt - but is the Attorney-General consid eri ng an amend ment req uir ing the Atto rne y-Gener al's Department to make a report to the Leg islature? MR. PENNER: No, I'm not prese ntly considering such an amend ment. Ther e is no singl e statute go verning the operation of the Department of the Attorney-General but I will certainly take it un der considera tion .

It may be appr opr iate at this tim e to conside r that. I would prefer to leave that for futur e consi derati on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Ho nour able Mem ber for Lakesid e that debate be adjo ur ned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Govern ment House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Natu ral Resou rces, that Mr. Sp eaker.do now leave the Chair and the Hous e resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Su pply to be gr anted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Hon-

19 March, 1982 ourable Memb er for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Department of No rthern Affairs, and the Honour able Memb er for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Natu ral Resou rces. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -NATURAL RE SOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): I call the Com mittee to order. We're on Natur al Resou rces, page 100, on Wildl ife. 9. (a)

(1) Salaries-pass. The Memb er for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr . Chairman, again, a quic k perusal of the in dividual items listed in this division of the department 's Estimates indi cates little change in terms of actual dollars and therefore I assume in manpower.

However, this di vision has some particular con­ cerns that I think conti nue to challenge the manage­ men t of wildl ife for all interested Manitobans, both the nona ctive person who - when I say nona ctive, I mean no t simply for harvesting purposes but for enjoyment in terms of our environ men t -t he appropria te way of managing this natural resource.

I would begin by asking the Min ister to perhaps, as I asked him yesterday with respect to the fisherie s qu estion, up date us if he can on the cu rrent story that involves the branch and that is the story about the amount of poaching or illegal activity, hun ting activ­ ity, that's taking place.

If in deed he can ind icate to us what the branch is doing about it and what poss ible cour ses of action are open to the Minis ter at this time to addr ess hi mself and that of the department to this gr owi ng pr oblem, if indeed it is a gr owi ng problem that repor ts wou ld seem to ind icate is the case, how in deed in any way we can assist him in this pr ob lem. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr . Min ister. HON. AL MACKLING, Q.C. (St. James): Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I appr eciate the honour able mem ber's concerns. I will say a few words on them by way of general com ment. Fi rst, I'd like to introd uce Richa rd C.

Golden who is the Dir ector of Wildli fe, who is here and will be giving the specific informati on where I'm wanting. In respect to the particular qu estion that the hon­ our able memb er asks, I think everyone shares a con­ cern in respect to the scope of the activity that appears to be going on illegally in sale of game and fish. This

section of the depar tment dealing with wi ld­ life is affected by that, but the par ticular

section of the depar tment that deals with wildl ife, enforcement of the game laws and so on come s up later, Mr . Chair ­ man. I will have the staff person who is in charge the dir ector of that op eration here with me at that tim e and he would be in a position to gi ve me mor e speci­ ficity, in any event he isn't here. I know that this may be an area wh ere we want mor e detail than I will be able to pr ovide myself or through Mr. Golden, so I'll ju st ind icate that it is a problem. I could comment fur ther about the result of the in itial investig ation in that, but I think it wo uld be mor e appropr iate to leave it to deal with un der 12.(

j) En forcement. 649 MR. ENN S: Mr . Chairman, I accept that position by the Minis ter and will pur sue it at that particular poin t. However, this is the area wher e the expertise lies both in terms of the actual management of this valua­ ble resource and the biological data base that advises the Min ister, establishes the kind of expert informa ­ tion upon which enforcement agencies.

Our govern­ ment ind eed is challenged to pass the necessary ru les, reg ulations of the game if you like, and I want to tread sensitively in this area knowing tha t is a di fficul t area for any Min ister and for this depar tment to han­ dle, and that is a very serious question of how some spec ies of game are being harvested and by whom and by what metho ds in this pro vinc e. I sug gest and I submi t to you, Mr.

Min ister, and I think you, Sir, with a legal personal backgr ou nd would have to appr eciate, it's my judgm ent that a su bstantial por tion of the problems that the branch faces with respect to how game are being harvested in this province to the detri ment of their contin ued existence, or the i r thriving existen ce.

Sur ely that kind of advice will come to you from thi s branch and I'm speaking specifically about the problems of tryin g to marry together the obligations that we have specifi­ cally to group s with in our society - that have been gi ven by constitu tion, by treaty certain righ ts and marr yin g that to today's technology, to the technol­ ogy of fou r-wheel driv es, of airpla nes, of spotlighting, of all kin ds of methods that are now emplo yed, are being emplo yed and are available to persons who are in the woods and thr oughout the pro vinc e are harvest­ ing this game .

Whil e I have every confidenc e in the other branch the Min ister is responsible for, the Regional Services Br anch which he ju st alluded to whic h is pri ncip ally resp onsible for the enforcement of exis ting game ru les and regu lations, it's my contention, Mr . Min ister, and I would invi te you to expr ess your views about this. Ther e has to come a realization that the methodol­ ogy emp loyed in harvesting game has to really seri ously be loo ked at.

I believe it's poss ible to do so without infr ingin g on tho se particu lar guar antees that have been accorded principally to the Native mem bers of our com mun ity, the Treaty In dian, under very spe­ cific treaties. Ther e are very sad example s, Sir , that you can avail you rself of, having to do with in dividual species of ani mals. I refer to the ongoing pr oblems and efforts that are being un dertaken for the preservat ion of the caribou her ds, the two caribou her ds that sti ll have some presence in Man itoba, the Beverly and the Kaminuriuk herds.

I kno w that our officials have had lengthy di scussions involving our sister jur isd ictions, the North west Territories, Federal Government, Inui t people, and In dian people, expr essing their desir e to find some way of bringing about the necessary agr eement, the kind of herd-managemen t capabilities that are available to us that our bio log ists kno w can be successfully emp loyed but cannot begin to do so unl ess the re is agreement and unl ess the re is some statute supp ort for those kind of management practi­ ces to bear fruit. Mr.

Chairman, the poin t I supp ose I'm making at this point in time is that I would really sugg est to the

19 March, 1982 Minis ter that efforts di rected in this area, in my ju dg­ me,·1t are essential , and in my judgm ent are necessary if serious efforts are going to be made to con trol what I think we all, and the Min ister has acknowledged as being an un satisfactory situation, and that leads to the illegal meat trade in wild meats that then get sent to the commercial harvesting of game that we don' t particula rly want to see happ ening in this province. MR. MACKLING: ML Chair man, the honour able memb er qu ite rightly referred to this con cern as one of dwelling in a sensitiv e area.

It has Jong been a problem to adjust the equitie s involved in confl icts that arise in the appl ication of game laws and retain­ ing the rig hts of the Native peo ple in respect to hun t­ in g pr ivi leges that of cou rse are very dear to them, very im portant to them.

I am pleased to be able to ind icate to all of the mem bers that for some time the departm ent has been following a cour se of consu ltation, di scussion, with the game and fish gr ou ps in respect to this problem but mor eover, di scussion with Native peo ple dir ectly in respect to matters of particular concern, because the Native people themselves, a good many of the people, have come to appr eciate that the department is con cerned about the cons ervation and conti nu­ ance of the game sup ply and that's im portant to the Native peo ple as well.

At this time I would like to acknowledge the in itia­ tives of the Min isters - I include the imme di ate past Min ister and the Min ister before him, ML Ransom in con nection with some of the ini tiatives that are ongoing respecting the preservation of some endan­ gered animals and in particular I'm referri ng to the barren land caribou herds that the honour able member referred to, the Ka minur iuk and the Beverly herds.

I'm gi ven to un der stand that sign ificant pr og ress has been made as a result of those in itiatives and that sometime, hop efully in the very near futu re, that effort will be culmi nated in the formal signing of an agree­ ment for the better management of that herd which will involve active partici pation of a majorit y gr oup on a comm ittee of the Native people thems elves. That was an excellent in itiative and it's ongoing. In many areas, Mr.

Chairman, the concerns that we have as memb ers of this Legisl ature, do not find thems elves in fixe d party positions because we share a common concern to preserve our natural resour ce heritage. I expect that this is going to be reflected in the decisions of this Committee and the attitude of the Commit tee in respect to particular items. I don' t shy away from frankly acknowledg ing in itiatives, positiv e ini tiatives, that have been made un der a previous admin istration of a different pol itical viewpoint.

That doe sn't trou ble me in the least because we have a common interest, as I' ve ind icated , to pr otect and preserve our natural resource heritage. In the wildl ife field I' ve indi cated in respect to that particular project, in respect to barren land caribou.

I think the cour se of action that seems to be on go­ ing within the depar tment, to appr oach these prob­ lems in em phasi zing consult ation and education is the most effective way to deal with our common con­ cerns because we all share, I think all of the peo ple of Manitoba share a conc ern to see our game conti nue so that it's available for the gene rations tha t come 650 after us. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr .

Chairman, I'll deal with one mor e specific area of concern at this point in time and I appr eciate other mem bers of the Commit tee will want to bring up in dividual or specific instances involving this branch as well.

But I'd like to refer the Min ister to the question that has occup ied a consi der able deg ree of time of the department for some several years now and that is the situation in volving one of Man itoba's finest wetland managed areas, although there is a traditional confl ict that this branch very often has to live with, namely from its sister department in Agricu lture and up at the Saskeram the se two com peting requir ement s of agri­ cultur e and wildl ife seem to focus. Th ere had been some very specific steps taken in the Saskeram.

The Memb er for The Pas is aware of them and he in fact may want to remove hi mself from the Chair briefly and engage in this debate of cou rse, he's welcome to do so at any time - it's in hi s backyard. The specific qu estion that I have to the Min ister is that there have been pr oposed bounda ry changes to the Saskeram Wildl ife Management area.

Ther e was an intention on the part of the previous adminis tration to try to acknowledge the mu lti-use pressures on this land by perhap s setting up a mor e localized advisory group cons isti ng of the various interest gr oups in that area, The Pas Farmer's Association, In dian Bands involved, different wildl ife organ izations; perhaps representa­ tives from the local LGD, etc. to bring the manage­ ment of that area somewha t closer to the local level. A suggestion of a marsh mana ger or an area manager was being consi dered actively by the previous admin­ istration.

Name s were being solici ted to sit on that advisory com mittee. My first questions to the Honour able Min ister wou ld have to be again whether he has any perso nal feelings about su ppor ting these ini tiatives or does he wish to start afresh. Mor e imp ortantly is the resol ution of that situation at the Saskeram so that both the branch and ind eed other organ izations such as Du cks Unlim ited can proceed with the necessarysecurit y of tenur e and the long-term planning that an im portant area such as the Saskeram requir es?

I appr eciate the Minis ter is of cou rse free to take whatever dir ection he chooses in this area, but again I poin t out to the Mini ster that the question of the Saskeram is not new; it looms large in the conc erns of the department because it is a very sign ificant area. Ther e is some hi storical backgr ound to that area that involves certain commi tme nts made by gove rn ments well in the past.

For instance, when the large hydr o un dert akin g at Grand Rapids was done and the su bsequen t flood ing of certain wetlands occu rred there were some obligations I don't know ju st ho w specific or in what kind of written form the y may exist - but certainly the re was a mor al obli gation on the part of the governme nts of the day to provide offsetting wildl ife benefits, gener ally conceded to be in the Saskeram area.

Those are some of the consid ­ erations that the agricultural commun ity has to acknowledge and has to appr eciate in coming to gr ips with the mul ti ple claims on the various uses of that land. So, Mr . Chairman, I will leave my qu estioning of the branch at this point with that qu estion to the Min ister:

19 March, 1982 what does he intend to do with the Saskeram? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, the honour ­ able memb er is qui te right in ind icating that the Sas­ keram is an area of wh ere the div ersity of in terest in the use of that area does pr oduc e varying demands from the interest gr oups affected, and I won' t use the word - conflic t of interest - but certainly ther e are dif ferent press ur es at di fferent times dependin g on climatic conditions for the use of the resource there.

It has agricultur al capacity in some respects; I think ther e's argu ment that ther e could be even greater agricultur al capacity. On the other hand, it is an excel­ lent base for wildl ife, both for du cks and mu skrats and moose and other small fur bearing ani mals. In respect to the work ing arrangem ents, a marsh manager has been appoi nted and that's Bob Ucht ­ mann, and he is no w emp loyed ther e.

The composi­ tion of a commit tee will incl ude various interest groups including The Pas Wildl ife Assoc iation, The Pas Trapp ers' Assoc iation, The Pas In dian Band, Ducks Unlim ited, the LGD of Consol, The Pas Farm ers' Co-operative Associa tion, and one ex officio mem ber from the Wildl ife Branch itself. The com mittee structur e has not been finalized as yet, but it's very much in the work, and the re is a recog nition I think on the part of all that it's necessary to have a team appr oach and a mu ltiple appr oach to the concerns about the proper management of that resource.

I might say in respect to the bou ndary chan ges the honour able memb er referred to, he is qui te correct that there are boundar y changes being recomm ended which will simpl ify and facilitate gr eater or mor e effective use of some of the property. Six thousand acres of the what is now the Saskeram Reserve will come out of reserve and thr ee thousand go back in. Now that mi ght seem like an anoma ly but it's a matter of correc ting the bou ndari es, adjusting them, to accomm odate what the land potential is; and so th ere will be a net withdr awal of th ree thous and acres from the reserve for agricul tur e.

I don' t think there is much mor e I cou ld say about that, Mr . Chairman, except to say that it's a situation where with goodwill and the active partici pation of the interested people thems elves, I'm satisfied that we can pro vide accommo dation to all in terest gr ou ps. No w, that's not to say that everyone will feel that their interest has been fully satisfied because ther e's no doub t that the resou rce cou ld be weig hted mo re heav­ ily one way than the other, but I think that we have to pragmatic about areas like this and establish through consult ation wha t is the most effective use for the resource.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Em erson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the format that we have established here over the last period of time whe ther that I could sort of cover the areas that they have concerns about and then get them out of the way. Some of the con­ cerns that I have were expr essed to some degree by the Memb er for Lakesid e and I'd like to just touch on that a little bit on the poaching aspect which I und er­ stand we can deal with un der a different section. 651 Ho wever, there was an

article in the paper which ind icated that some of our field people felt that ther e was lack of legislation or legislation was hi nderi ng them to properly adminis trate some of their responsi­ bilities and I think we can deal with it then, or the qu estion that I really have is whe ther the Min ister is considering legis lation to be intr odu ced in the Hous e regard in g that aspect of it that seems to have been a problem with the COs. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I appr eciate what the honour able memb er has in mind. I did read with interest, the dep ressed story about that.

I haven't seen the specifics of water sug gested to be the areas of the Act that have to be strengthe ned or amended and so on. I'll be interested to look at that. That hasn't been forthcom ing to me as yet, so there will be nothing this Sess ion dealing with that, certainly, that I kno w of. Now, it may be that, if staff does come forward with some th ing that is ur gent of cour se I'll bring it on, but from what I am gi ven to under stand several areas will be reviewed and whether or not it'll be possible to bring legislation or change either

an Act or reg ulation this Session, I wouldn't know. MR. DRIEDGER: The other poin t that I don' t kno w exactly to what extent it wou ld be in volved with this department, but under the same enforcement aspect of it, I'd like to pur sue it at that time with the staff that you have what position the departmental people have regard in g some of the gun legis lation that is eventu­ ally proposed from time to time, whe ther we have any interest along tho se lines at all, has the department through the enforcement people at all, or not?

I think it would be a key influe nce to some degree if depar t­ mental people took a position on these thi ngs and I'd like to pur sue that a little bit later on when we come to the enforcement aspect of it. I'm ju st serving notice on that. The other point tha t I'd like to ju st bring up at this tim e is the Mem ber for Lakeside made reference to the barren land caribou herds, the Kam inur iak herd and the Beverley herd. I'd ju st like to encour age the Min ister to continue with the negotia tions.

I was for­ tunate enough three years ago to end up nor th visiting Tadoule Reserve, Broche t and Lac Br ochet, with the then Min ister Br ian Ransom when we ini tiated some of the di scussions with the Reserve people about the protection and management of the caribou herds. I think awareness is a thing that has finally come about and I un derstand negotia tions are proceed ing and I felt encou raged by the statement of the Min ister. Con tinuing on to the Wildli fe Management aspect of it; the previous adminis tration established a pilo t project in the St.

Malo area, a wildlif e management area which was sort of un ique and was a pi lot project and I wonder whe ther I could possibly have some reaction from the Minis ter as to how it's wor king. The admin istration end of it is shared joi ntly by the Wild­ life Assoc iation as well as the resource peo ple and I just wonder what the reaction or the gut feeling of the departmental people is on that? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr . Chairman, Mr . Golden has confi rmed what I und erstood to be the case and that is that wildl ife management area and its arran-

19 March, 1982 gement has been wor king out very, very well. As the honour able memb er kno ws, I have met with people from the game and fish organ izations in that area and they continue to be very enthus iastic about that develop ment as well. MR. DRIEDGER: I'm pleased to hear that. I'm ju st wonde ring, could the Min ister gi ve me sort of hi s personal feeling in terms of, wou ld he consi der look­ ing at the exten sion of this kin d of a program in the futu re?

Because, as the Minis ter has ind icated, there was a gr ou p which represents about three or four wildl ife associations, including suppor t from the local gov ernme nt dis tric t of Stuar tburn. The approach which is used here is possibly a little different from the one in the western part of the province where there is concern about too many wildl ife managemen t areas. Here we have a major project and everybody in the general area and councils, etc., seem supp ortive of this kind of an appr oach.

I would like to strongly in dicate my supp ort to the Min ister for that kin d of a pr oject that is being proposed if the Min ister could see fit to operate it on the same basis as the one that has been establishe d. The one at St. Malo is of lesser natur e. The one that is being prop osed right now to the Min ister is of a mor e major natur e, but I think it has a lot of merit and if the Minis ter could ind icate whether he, in principl e, supp orts that kind of approach, I'd like to hear it MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I think on an earlier occasion dur ing the cour se of this review of the natu­ ral resource Esti mates, I did answer questions to my honour able friend in respect to those very issues. I think it was under the Crown Lands Item when we were discussi ng that, Mr . Cha ir man, and I don't think that I could say mor e than I did then and wha t I think I - well, I cou ld recall, if what I say now is in further elaboration that's fine, but basically the St. Malo arrangement that fir st we referred to is work ing out very, very wel l. As a model, it pr obably can be emu­ lated and expanded on in other areas.

However, we mu st be careful in arr angeme nts like this to ensur e that the land developed for wildl ife habitat, or at least, ini tially by the in terested group, a game and fish association in this case, a gr oup of them, does not become focus only for wildl ife habitation. It can be mul ti pu rpose, that is, ther e can be natur e trails, bir d­ watchin g, all sorts of capacity for varying interest group s in addition to the wildli fe people thems elves.

Ther e's a certain psycho logy involved in a particu­ lar group going out and buying and then having kind of a paternal interest in a system or develop ment. and it has its advantages and its di sadvantages and as long as the gr ou p und erstands the broader phi lo­ sophy that's necessary in respect to natur al resource husbandr y, then there's no problem. Bu t, if they become focused on only the one aspect. then it can enge nder pr oblems.

So. we have to watch that bal­ ance very carefully and I think mo st game associa­ tions are very enligh tened people, but we have to bear that in min d because ther e's a di versity of interest in people wanting to use wildli fe habitat area.

In respect to that particular development that the honour able memb er referred to, as I ind icated I had a meeting with those very enthusi astic people and there 652 is possibili ty for that fur ther developme nt, but I really hesitate to say much mor e about it because, un less they are successful in obtaining assurances that we can pick up the pri vate lands there for a nominal amoun t of mo ney, I cou ldn't be very positiv e about it because it is relatively inexpensiv e or should be rela­ tively inexpensiv e land, but if it were to cost the Crown any amount of mon ey, then I think there are other ways we could put the mo ney to better use.

We can't afford to be spend ing a gr eat pil e of mon ey on land that is margin al. It should be recovered by the associ­ ation at a nomi nal amount and then we'd be able to go ahead I think . MR. DRIEDGER: I'm pleased to, at least, get the in di­ cation from the Mini ster that he is prepared to keep on looking at it and worki ng with it, because I can gua ­ rantee him the group certainly will, because they're a very active group. I'd like to go on. A few years ago The New Wildl ife Act was introduced and I ju st have a few mor e ques­ tions along those lines.

Und er The New Wildl ife Act part of the pro vision was the req uir ement to get per­ mi ssion to hun t on pri vate property. Ini tially, when this Act was intr oduced, there was, I think, well maybe word ju st went out, to indic ate to the field people no t to come down too heavy on it.

It was sort of an intr o­ duc tory type of appr oach; it seemed to work well, and I mu st say to the Min ister that, generally, there's been good acceptance, espe cially on behalf of farmers, and most hunt ers, the fact that they have to acq uir e perm ission - not necessarily written perm ission, it can also be verbal permission - and I ju st hop e that the Min ister is not going to be coming down too hard on this, as this transition and learning process contin ues, I think it is wor kin g out relatively well.

I'm no t sur e whe ther that smil e he is giving ind icates that I'm in trouble some where along the way. Fur ther to that I'd ju st like to indic ate to the Min ister and to you, Mr. Chairman, that the fact that under the hunting license right now, the par ty license system is restricted to two to a party. I' ve had all kind s of repres­ entation made to me.

It has created certain problems , for the simpl e reason that what it does to some deg ree, if a party of thr ee or four peo ple want to hunt in a gener al area, the field staff, right ful ly, if they're hun ting in a gr oup, can take, and I un derstand, charge them. In some cases this has happ ened. I wo uld encour age the Min ister to poss ibly look at the feasa­ bility of expan ding the party hun ting licenses to fou r in a party. I don't know whether this would be any dr amatic problem chang ing it from two to four and why it was changed down to two to begin with.

Any­ way -(I nterjection )- well, safety, a mem ber says. I do n't necessarily agree, but I'd like to make that reco mm end ation to the Minis ter, that I think many of the peo ple in the field that are hu nters and sportsmen, and I like to refer to them as sports men, that I think there would be good acceptance to see it moved back to four to a license. I have two other items that I'd like to bring up, Mr. Chairman. One is the license sold for the black bear hun ting seasons. These are restricted to resource offices at the present time.

All other license, or most other licenses can be pur chased at the normal outlets, especially at cou ntry outle ts, where the individual

19 March, 1982 storekeepers are selling the various permits and what have you, but they are restricted from selling the licenses for black bears at the present time . I' ve had that request from several of them, and it creates a bit of a problem for certain in dividuals if they have to travel 50-60 mi les to try and pick up a bear license. Th e di sper sal point in most cases for moose, deer, other thi ngs, is done right out of the local busi ness place. -(I nterje ction)- That creates even a big ger problem.

No w I have one another item that I'd like to cover, and that is the wild tu rkey season that we had ini tiated. There's a problem with this. We have two ju risdictions that are actually handling the wild turkey seasons. I think, if I'm righ t, Wild Gobble rs Unlim ited have ini tiated the program to some degree and I understand that the departmental people, the resource people are handling the actual hu nting reg ulations or the program itself.

Some concern has been expressed, both by the Wild Gobble rs peo ple, as well as the resource peo ple that the re should be one jur isdi ction that has the autho rity to in itiate the program and han­ dle it. You have a two-pr onged thing right now and it's hard to establish who the major author ity is, and I wou ld very mu ch suggest that poss ibly people could maybe come to some kind of an arrangement. As I indica ted, we had a tu rkey season in the sout heast for the fi rst time last year. I und erstand that 220 licenses were issued on a dr aw basis. -(Interjec tio n)- Yes, incident ally, I was successful.

I under stand tha t the amoun t of licenses that will be issue d this year are redu ced. Could the Mini ster ind icate when the season is going to be opened, and the amount of permit s or licenses that will be issue d in both areas, the west as well as the east? MR. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, in respect to Albert's desir e to shoot another tom tu rkey - I'll defer that one for a few min utes and I'll have the date of the season. I know it either be gins or ends on the 1 1th of May, and I think it's May 2nd to 11t h, or some thing like that. Yes, I think it's the 2nd to the 11 th.

It's one week but there's no hun ting on the Su nd ay. Anyway, we'll have those particu lars for you. I don' t recall them comp letely and I won't speculate any fur ther than I have. It's on a dr aw basis again and if you're fortu nate enough - I happen to know that the former Pr emier wasn't successful in the dr aw last year - but the Hon­ our able Memb er for Em erson was, and I saw a pictur e of his trop hy. I'll come back to that one .

Starting with the honour able memb er's concerns in respect of the effect of the new Act on trespassing, I under stand there were only 25 hu nters charged last year with illegally hun ting on pri vate land, so obviousl y the department has been exer cising dis cretion in the laying of charges. I wo uld assume that there were probably innu merable instances wh ere hu nters, not realizing that the reg ulations now pro vide that it's a requir ement to get consent before you go on pri vate land to hu nt, didn' t follow that cour se of action.

But the consent doe sn' t have to be in writi ng, and so there can be some disagr eements, I supp ose, between the hun ter and the landowner, but it sounds like the pro­ gr am is wor king very well. In respect to the party-licens e issue I think the hon­ ourable mem ber is rig ht, that at one time party 653 licenses of fou r in nu mber were permis sable, but I think during the cour se of the last adminis tration the changes did occur that brought a red uction to two, and I think there are dif ferent views on this with in hu nting gr oups and, obviously, within the general public on this question.

These change s occurr ed and I heard the Ho nour able Memb er for Min nedosa sym­ pathizing with the con cern and I think he was around during the cou rse of the last four years here in the admin istration, so there is a diversity of view on that. We'll conti nue to look at that but I'll take advice of honour able mem bers and I'll take the advice of the department in that review.

In respect to black bear hun ting and the licensing; tho se licenses, like the licenses for the wild tu rkeys are sprin g licenses and the y're not issue d in the nor ­ mal way, the y are special licenses then, and as spring licenses they're available onl y thr ough the conser va­ tion officers, the distric ts, because there's a limi ted numb er of licenses involved and it wo uld be wasteful and very inefficie nt to have all of the usual outle ts having those licenses available. We are a very cost­ efficient admin istration.

In respect to the overall management of the wild tu rkeys, the Ho nour able mem ber is right that the gr owth of the wild tu rkey flock and resou rce has arisen as a result of the ini tiative of the Wild Gobb lers Associa tion. It's been a very wor thwhile work and they've put a lot of money and effort into it and it's now payi ng off in the terms of an additional recreational activity that memb ers of the association themselv es partici pate in. But the overall author ity in respect to the wild game remains with the department.

The Wild Gobb lers rear the m in captivity when they decide they want to do that but the govern ment department supervises the game and issues the perm its in respect to the release of them. It's a good program. MR. DRIEDGER: I ju st have a few shor t qu estions that arise because of the com ments made by the Min­ ister. Un der the present program for wild fowl or ani mals, the damage that has been created to some degree, do tu rkeys quali fy un der that program, wild turkeys? MR. MACKLING: No , Mr . Chairman, apparently not. MR.

DRIEDGER: Then I would encou rage the department to maybe look at that possibili ty because in areas where ther e's substantial wild turkeys around, it has created some problems and I would like to dr aw it to the attention of the departmental peo ple. A fur ther qu estion: how many tu rkey licenses are going to be issued, eastern reg ion, western reg ion? MR. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, I'm awaiting those particula rs and I will get them shor tly and even though we may have passed that item, I'll come back to it and deal with it. MR. DRIEDGER: Then ju st one mor e and I'd like to go back to the barren land caribou.

Can the Minis ter ind icate whether the count of the two herds, the Bev­ erley and Kaminuriuk herds; whether they are still on the decline; whether they have stabilized; whether they're starting to come back? Thi s is a question I

19 March, 1982 should have asked before. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the advice that have is that both herds are still on the decline. MR. DRIEDGER: That's all, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Min nedosa. MR. DAVID R. (DAVE) BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

I have some general commen ts to make and I know the Min ister is allowing us a lot of latitude here but I think we've been making good progr ess, and if we jump around a little bit he knows by now that when we're ready to pass, we have all our questions answered and even though someti mes when I feel the Mini ster maybe doesn't know any mo re about it than we do, but we're ready to mo ve on. We move on qui te quickl y. Ju st on caribou , I have one question on wood land caribou that I would like to ask the Min ister.

Ther e's a herd in the Reed Lake area between Cran berry and Sn ow Lake that forages back and forth in that particu­ lar area. I ju st won dered if he could let me know ho w that her d was doing, whether that was declining or whether that herd was being maintained? -(I nter­ jection)- Wood land caribou, yes. MR. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, I'm advised that herd is in the area that the honour able memb er men ­ tions. It's in the Grass Ri ver Pro vincial Park. The herd is holdin g its own , but barely. MR. BLAKE: I realize there's alot of predators in there, two-legged and four -wheeled, but - and four ­ legged too.

Mr. Chairman, I ju st wanted to comment maybe on some of the thing s that the Memb er for Eme rson has touche d on and tha t is obtaining permission to hun t on pr ivate pr operty. I think it has been pretty success­ ful. I know that the COs are conscious of the intent of it all.

I feel that maybe last year there was some abuse by certain mem bers of the other police force, the RCMP that work in certain areas, and there could have been the odd ind ividual that was maybe a little overze alous in perform ing his du ties because there were people in hun ting parties wher e the one person migh t get permission to hun t, and the other mem ber of the party would take his word for it that he had permission.

They were going to each memb er in the gr ou p and questioning them with a line of questioning as if they were trying to trap them into saying that they didn 't have permission and I don' t think that's the intent of the legislation. I do n't think it's good for hun ting and for game management. That was proba­ bly an iso lated case. I agree with the Memb er for Emer son in his assump ­ tion that party hu nting maybe should be loo ked at because ther e are areas wh ere it's ju st imp ossible for a party of two to accomplish any results at all.

The bush is far too vast for them to attemp t to push it, so they join up with other parties or the y wait un til another party moves in the area and then they stand poi nt, and when you don' t know wher e memb ers of your party are, that's when you maybe are a little mor e prone to some accident where you do n't know exactly 654 what the other people are doing. Mr. Chairman, I don 't want to get involved in this particular argu men t pro or con but I ju st won dered if the Min ister migh t like to comme nt on Sund ay hun t­ ing.

I know if this ever rears its head it'll be a very contro versial subject, but you know there are areas in our pro vi nce where peo ple spend a fair bit of mo ney to get to. I'm thinking up nor th where I don't really believe the animals up there know what day it is. It's a shame to travel all that way and have to lay around camp all day Sund ay waiting for sunr ise on Mon day because you - the Min ister kno ws what may happ en if you'r e laying around all day Sund ay with a party of four or five fellows. You migh t have to take Mon day off too.

I have hu nted in jur sid ictions where they do allow Sund ay hun ting and I'm not saying that it should be any who lesale area - past a certain point up nor th for big game, sur ely. I don' t advocate it for big game down here, but I think for upland game in the southern areas; there's very, very heavi ly-popula ted areas in the Uni ted States where they allow Sun day hun ting. It's been a gr eat boon to the tou rist busi ness and I don' t see any problem with it.

I ju st would like to have the Minis ter's com ments on that; if he's had any representation from hun ting gr oup s or from wild life associations; what their views are on it. MR. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, with your permis ­ sion I'll answer the questions that the Honour able Memb er for Em erson had put to me because I think he's anxious to make arrangement s and I don't blame him. -(Interjec tion)- Well, gi ven your past success I mi ght have to take you up on that, if I ever get out of here. Ther e are two areas agai n. Ther e's the St.

Malo area and the La Rivi ere area and there are choic es of dates and they're; the 3rd and the 4th; the 5th , the 6th; the 7th, the 8th; the 10 th, the 11 th; 12 th, 13 th; 14th and 15t h; and a successful draw appl icant will be enabled to select one of tho se coup let dates, same as last year, and will be able to shoot one tom tu rkey. -(I nter­ jecti on)- Well, we have to think metric no w and I don' t know what that is. In St. Malo again, it's the same period of time : the 3rd, the 4th; 5th, 6th; and so on.

You'll note that there's no hun ting on the Su nday and there are 300 licences in total, 25 licenses for each day cho ice. Now in respect to the matters raised by the Honour ­ able Member for Minn edosa, I've indi cated that in respect to party hu nting I'm prepared to look at that and ask staff to look at it, and it may be as the honour ­ able mem ber says, that in some areas of the pro vinc e wher e factors that were raised in opposition to mor e than two being in a party mi ght be a factor, and if it is then since the province is zoned for hun ting in various areas, we could look at that.

That mi ght be some thing that the hu nters mi ght appr eciate and we'll look at it. In respect to Su nday hun ting, the best advice I have - we ll, I won't ind icate what the best advice gi ven to me was - but let me say that there is conside rable diversity of opin ion on that question. Person ally speaking, I, as someone who enjo ys the outdo ors and I happen to fully enjoy the out doors because from my perspective, I haven't been able to do any hun ting and I hop e that whatever we do in this Session we don't get in volved in too much of the legislative work during the regular bir d-h un ting season anyway.

But my inclina-

19 March, 1982 tion is to try and provide mor e free time for indi viduals to be able to hu nt rather than open Su nday up for hun ting. I like to see mor e opp ortu nity for the short work week or wh atever, so that people can get out and enjoy the outdo ors during the sum mer time and du r­ ing the fall which I think is the most splendid season of the year in mor e ways than one . So, if I sound like I'm skating on that one, it may not be as fancy as I would like, but that's it. MR.

BLAKE: I can see that there is some di versity of opinio n on it, and ther e's maybe a possibili ty for someone who may advocate Sund ay hun ting, and there are some areas wh ere I don't see anything wrong with it at all. I'm thinki ng, you know, around the Chur chill area for goose hun ting for people that usu­ ally have to fly in there, have spent a consi derable amount of mo ney. and as I say, sitting around Su nday seems kind of poi ntless when there is no chur ch to go to and there's no dang er of di sturbing the local people who may not like hun ting on Su nday; areas like that.

And I know that the advocates are going to say, "Well, that's ju st the thin edge of the wedge, that's yo ur foot in the door to open it up ," and being a hun ter as I say, I have hunt ed in ju risdictions wher e it's allowed . It's allowed in Eur ope, it's allowed in England, ph easant­ hun ting, and I' ve hu nted in Iowa and Nebr aska and they allow Su nday hun ting there and there's been no problems whatsoever. In fact, it's been qu ite a boon to the i r tou rist ind ustry. -(I nterjection)- but you still go to ch urch; you don't sho ot till after ch urch.

And there are a lot of very religi ous people do wn th ere, too, good strong Baptis ts. Mr. Chairman. I know the department has a pro­ gram on sustain ing deer herds that are having maybe no t as good gr aze in the various ti mes in its - the Member for Arthur is not here - he'll probably be bri nging it up Mon day when he gets back, but there is one particular farmer down in his area that's feeding some thing like two hundr ed-and-some-odd deer right now, and that's a pretty heavy load for one in dividual.

I was wondering if the department does have any assis­ tance prog ram or what avenues he should look at to try and get a little assistance to tide him over for another couple to thr ee weeks maybe. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, the dep art­ ment itself does have a wi nter feeding program wh ere problems have been ide ntified and that's been on go­ ing for many years.

In the event that there is a specific problem, and it sounds like the honour able memb er is referring to a case that we migh t look at, because the department will, if there's a specific problem that someone is prepar ed to look after, then perhaps we could supply feed in a situation like that. MR. BLAKE: I'd ju st like to add, Mr. Chairman, that particular area is in Lyleton and the Conserva tion Officer down there mi ght be in terested in takin g a look; he may be aware of it.

Bu t the farmers are, as you know, probably the best conservationis ts by and large that we have, because they do have a feel for the land and natur e and ani mals and birds, and in most cases, the y do a gr eat deal to sustain the bir ds and the anim ­ als for those of us that like to enjoy the recreational hun ting to enjoy it. 655 Mr . Chairman, my main point is - and it's some­ thing that the Min ister maybe hasn' t had time to look at or hasn't had time to find some solution to, but maybe someone in his department could.

As you know, my riding takes in a large part of Ri ding Moun­ tain National Park and we have gr eat pr oblems there with beaver dam ming up areas, floo ding farmlands, blocking culverts and flooding out roads, and I know the pr oblems that there is with the Parks Canada people. You can't go in there and clean them out and they have multipli ed very, very rapidl y and I don' t kno w what the answer is, but the Memb er for Dau­ phi n's not here. We attended a meeting at Ste.

Rose last week where the munic ipalities are getting together with Parks Canada and with the pol itical people and I know some people from the depar tment were there, and it looks as if they have formed an ongoing com­ mi ttee that may requir e some funding in some way, but I think that is the fir st step to trying to solve the problem. I believe last year they had one or two peo­ ple author ized to try and take the beaver out and he may indi cate how successful that was.

I don't think it was very successful, but if he would like, I could gi ve him the name of a couple of peo ple who wou ld ju st love to go in there and take out a few hundr ed beaver every year, if you can get Parks Canada to agree, but we know the pol icies of Parks Canada. That park is not to be touche d in any way, shape or form; in fact, if you get caught picking mushr ooms in there you'r e liable to be arrested.

But I gue ss that poli cy may be a long time before you'r e going to change it; but there are so many pr oblems in there and I won't get into the drai nage pr oblem because that's another one, but they have done test areas that have pr oven very, very successful in hold ing back tempor arily and provi ding some catch basins for the silt before it gets out of the moun tains because that's the pr oblem. Once that water is out of the moun tains, the problem's created and it's a hell of a job to stop the water once it gets ro lling.

But the damage caused by the animals there, and as I say, we have the problem of the large ani mals too, and I know there's compensation paid to a numb er around that park, but the Min ister may be able to bring us up-to-date on what progress he feels they'r e making with the Parks Canada people in arriv­ ing at some solutions to elimi nating the problem of wild -anima l damage and the beaver problem. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr .

Chairman, the depar t­ ment confi rms to me that the con cern that the hon­ our able memb er has, has been id entifie d and he's qui te right about the problems that have been occasi­ one d by beaver that come A MEMBER: Our federal beaver. MR. MACK LING: ... yeah, our national emblem com­ ing into areas outside of the park and causing a great deal of di fficu lty, as he has indic ated.

As a result of the conc erns and the problems that have developed, the depar tment has negotia ted an agreement with Parks Canada and the Federal Govern ment, and it's a prev­ ention program that will cost $60,000 cost-shared 50- 50, 50 percent federal and 50 percent pro vi ncial. The department did encou rage trappers to move into the adjacent area and -(Interjec tion)- no, they couldn't

Friday, 19 March, 1982 go in the park, but the program was fairly su ccessful. In respect to the broad area of problems that arise in respect to fire and anim als and so on and those prob­ lems that are associated with the park area and the neighb ouring area, as the honour able mem ber has indica ted, there is a commit tee that has been estab­ lished. It's called a Liaison Comm ittee and the department has recently desig nated the Re gional Manager in Dauphin as the provincial representative on that Liaison Committee and I believe that we're going to be having a meeting very soo n.

So, I think again, that progr ess is being made in establishm ent of consu ltative systems that hop efully will mi tigate or mini mi ze the problems that arise from the conflicts in control and use of resources in that area. MR. BLAKE: I think that's a step in the right dir ection. I think the pr oblem has to be attacked at sour ce and it's in the park and it would have to be done in a contr olled way and the rangers there are fairly co-operative.

I had the mis fortune to wound an elk a couple of years ago when I was hun ting in ther e, and my partner and I had to go and get the ranger and fol low the tr ail and he accomp anied us in two or th ree mile s, and it didn' t look like we were gai ning too much on it and we sugg ested we didn't want to tie him up and take his time , so if he would ju st let us go on by our selves that we would probably get the wounded anim al and he said, "I kn ow being a politician that I could trust you, but I'm not sur e of your partner, so I think maybe you had better come back out with me." So, unfortu nately, we didn' t get the animal.

The beaver, as I say, at one time were pretty well extinct in there and they brought in two or thr ee pairs and it's a good thing they brought pair s because they maybe would have been extinc t by now, but the y've got some thing like 3,000 or 4,0 00 colon ies in there, which is a lot of beaver. If they don't get in that park to start contr olling them or cleaning them ou t, I don' t think they're ever going to solve the problem, but I see that steps that are being take.

I know it takes a little longer to edu cate the federal officials than it does to educate pr ovincial people, but keep the pressure up on them because it is causing gr eat prob lems to the farmers in the adjacent areas. MR. MACKLING : Mr. Chairman, the honour able mem ber is qu ite correct in respect to the propensity of the beaver to pr opagate very effectively from the small numb ers. I'm advised that in this area we have the high est densit y of beaver in all of Canada. MR. BLAKE: We all would have been proud. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Portage la Prair ie. MR.

LLOYD HYDE (Portage la Prairie): Thank you, Mr. Chairm an, to the Min ister, I was qui te interested in the di scussion that was taking place this mornin g in reg ards to some of the pr oblems with our hu nting righ ts and such as we have in the day.

You'r e probably aware that we have qui te a numb er of our popu lation around the Portage area is Native and it has gotten to be a big pr oblem in that area of nigh t-ligh ting and it is a problem in our area and I first of all, before I go any 656 further, I want to say that it isn' t only Native people, we have some no n-Na tive people too, that are abusing thei r rig hts along that line. Mr . Chairman, I certainly hope that you will con­ tin ue, you and your govern ment, will conti nue to pre­ serve the different species that someti mes cou ld very well be exti nct through the nonc are of some people.

I want to mention, if I may, ju st about the waterfall damage that has taken place in the past in the area of north of Portage, which is in the new part of my consti­ tuenc y. It has been a problem to that area for as long as we can remember, particula rly in wet seasons, late falls, when there's mor e water than we'd like to have at that time of year. The damage that has been done by the duc ks and geese is just unb elievable and I'm ho p­ in g that your gov ernme nt will conti nue to compen­ sate the farmers that are being -(Interjec tio n)- yes, set up on, by the unr uly ducks and geese at that time of year.

Also, it was mentioned by some of my colleague s this morn ing in regards to the hun ting on pri vate properties. I'm not a hu nter myself. I used to enjo y it, but of later years, I haven' t, but I thought poss ibly that you did need to have written permission, but it has been mentio ned her e that it is not needed. I know recently there was a case where these two young gentlemen trespassed onto proper ty and the auth ori­ ties were notified. The authorities were righ t on the job and the case was taken to cour t, but was th row n out, a lack of proper evidence in that particular case.

I don' t know any mor e of the par ticu lars on that, other than I know the case was thr own out , as I say, for lack of evidence on trespassing. I was wanti ng to mention a little bit about Ducks Unlimi ted. In our area, you can realize that, in these last few years, we've had a nu mber of farmers out in that area very con cerned with the aggr essiven ess, if I migh t say, on that company. I don' t know whether you wou ld wish to comment on that at this time, Mr . Min ister. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Ch air man, -(l nterjection)­ The Chairman has ind icated I have a half-a-min ute.

I heard someone say, the Minis ter loves Ducks Unlim­ ited. You kno w, I love everyone and it's difficul t for me to find words to describe my enthusia sm for tho se who want to preserve wildl ife and to encou rage it. Now, there are differences of cou rse. Some peo ple recog nize that the organization has a perceived object and someti mes that causes problems for other inter­ est gr oup s.

We have to work and try and balance out the pri orities as tho se responsible for the preservation of our natural resources, and try and take the enthusi­ asm and the effort of all those who have maybe sing le­ pu rpose in terests and blend them so that we get a homo gene ous, collective effort that is of benefit to all. In respect to the depr edation problems that the honour able mem ber talks about, that's an ongoing program and, I think a very successful one . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is 12:30 and I'm interru pt­ ing proce edings for Private Mem bers' Hour . Com mittee rise.

19 March, 1982 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS, ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Comm it­ tee come to order. I address your attention to Page 10 7, Item No. 2, Admin istrative Su ppor t Services, specifically 2(b), Other Exp enditur es. The Honour able Memb er for Swan Ri ver. MR. D.M. (Doug) GOURLAY (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, on Other Exp enditur es I under stand that the management services to Channel Area Loggers and Mo ose Lake Logger s is covered un der this area. I was ju st wond eri ng if there's any change in this arrangement. HON. JAY COWAN (Churchill): I'm informed that it's under 2(

c) the next item, is that corr ect, where we'd be di scussing that if you wish to di scuss it un der that particular item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2(b) -pass; 2(

c) Canada-Man itoba No rthern Developm ent. The Honour able Memb er for Swan Ri ver. MR. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minis ter cou ld com­ ment on the management arrangeme nts with Ch an­ nel Area Loggers and Moose Lake loggers as to whether there's any changes have taken place in this service since November. MR. COWAN: My under standin g of the situation is that ther e were two SMYs in last year's adjusted, and there are two SMYs in this year's request which is a status quo situation.

We are asking for another $1. 7 thousand in respect to the fund s and that's due to a position transfer resulting in incr eased salary requests for '82-83. So the salaries go up from $5 1. 2 thous and to $52.9 thousand. The manager is the same of corpo­ rate projects, and the secretary is the same in dividual as well as was in the previous year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (c) -pass. The Honour able Memb er for Niakwa. MR. ABE KOVNATS (Niakwa): I wou ld ju st like to find out wher e I can ask some questions on the indu s­ try that pr efabs ho uses out of logs in No rthern Mani­ toba; under what item? MR.

COWAN: Ther e is not really an item in the Esti­ mates for that so if you wish to di scuss it now I'm perfectly ready to di scuss that in general terms. MR. KOVNATS: Jus t a very very shor t question on it. Has the gove rnment got any intention or any mon ies allocated to the restarting of these in dus trie s th at were cur tailed because of the im me nse losses of mon ies that were put into them in previous years? Has the govern ment got any intention of revitalizing the ind ustry? MR. COWAN: Ther e is nothing specific in these par­ ticular Estimates in that regard.

Ho wever, we are look­ ing at those options un der the Nor th lands Agr eement, 657 un der the special ARDA Agre ement although to a much lesser extent, and we may as those agreements become mor e struc tur ed and we have mor e idea what may or may not be in them, be able to di scus s them in that particular respect. For these Esti mates there is no specific moni es allocated for those pu rposes. That is not to say that we won't be looking at them over the cou rse of next year in attempting to determ in e if, in fact, we can pr ovide supp ort for tho se sorts of pro­ gr ams.

That is some thing we'll always be doing , as I ind icated yesterday. We want to take both a long-term and a shor t-term approach to dealing with some of the sign ificant unem plo yment problems in Nor thern Man itoba. These types of projects are exactly the type of pr ojects which one wou ld want to look at in that regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item No. 3, Local Government Development , and in accord ance with the sug gestion yesterday from the Memb er for Ni akwa, I'll read these into the record: 3(

a) Local Government Services; 3(

b) Local Govern ment Services. Th e Honour able Memb er for Swan Riv er. MR. GOURLAY: We're fin ished on 2? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry we shoul d pass the Reso­ lution first. Resolution No . 115 . THEREFORE BE IT RE SOLVED THA T there be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $470,200 for No rthern Affairs, Envir on men t and Work Place Safety and Health, Adminis trative Suppor t Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t Day of March 19 83- pass. Con tinuing with No. 3, Local Government Devel­ opme nt, we're on 3. (b), Local Government Services. The Honour able Memb er for Swan Riv er. MR. GOURLAY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I take it this is whe re the Assis tant Depu ty Minis ter's role is, in Local Government Developm ent. That position is cu rrently vacant is it not? MR. COWAN: The position sho ws up un der 3.(

b) but I don' t want to get caught up in the same problems that we go t caught up with last ni ght. If you wish to discuss it at this poi nt, I'm perfectly prepar ed to. Yes, the positi on is vacant. Perhaps if I can, I can ju st gi ve a brief open ing statement and then if there are questions flowi ng from that at the start of each section. Of cou rse, the Local Govern ment Develop ment Division provides local govern ment supp ort services to the 15 nor thern and remote com mun ities falling under the ju risdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs.

The se services fall into the area of local government supp ort and local supp ort services. Thei r services with in this di vision are deliv ered through thr ee different oper ating branche s with the fol lowi ng objectives. The first is local govern ment services. Here we attempt to prog ressively advance the local self­ gov ernme nt uni ts falling within the jur isd iction of The No rthern Affairs Act in accordance with the pr ovi­ sions of The No rthern Affairs Act and as well in

19 March, 1982 accordance with gove rn mental and departmental pol­ icies towards increased autonomy. As part of that process we are attemp ting to prog ressively transfer author ity, mon ies and resources to com mun ities as they become mor e and mor e capable of respon sibly and effectively becoming self-gove rning uni ts. Dur ­ ing that process we mon itor and assist wh ere possi­ ble, the local government bodie s in carrying out the local service requir eme nts as define d in The Northern Affairs Act.

Finally, we assist councils and comm it­ tees in identi fying and priori zing major infrastructure requir eme nts which are delivered by the department and other go vernment department agencie s. To answer the specific question of the memb er oppo site, we can di scuss the vacancy in the Assis tant Dep uty Min ister's position, if he wishe s to do so at this tim e. MR. GOURLAY: Mr . Chairman, the Min ister in his open ing remarks yesterday ind icated that his objec­ tive is to see another six com mun ities move up in to self-admin isteri ng uni ts, and another one into a joint adminis tration from trust.

I wonde r if he could identif y those com mun ities. MR. COWAN: We wou ld ho pe, over the next period of time and that's the next fiscal year, advance from trust status to joint adminis tration status, the com mun ities of Dallas-Red Rose, Stevenson Island, Pine Dock and Pri ncess Harbou r. Those are four which we would ho pe to move in that dir ection.

We wou ld also hop e to advance from trust status to self-admini steri ng status, Big Black Ri ver, South In dian Lake and llford, and, finally, we'd like to advance from joint admin istration to self-admin istration status, Easterville, Cam pervi lle and Nelson Ho use. Th ose are the objectiv es which we have set out for the upcoming year. Hop efully, we will be able to reach tho se objectiv es.

We have put in to place what I ho pe will be enough dir ect suppor t services to enable us to assist those com mun ities in what we would sug gest, and I know the mem bers op pos ite would agree, is a fairly logical prog ression of their self-development. MR. GOURLAY: Mr . Chairman, I would like to com­ mend the Min ister on his ambitious effort to ende a­ vour to get mor e and more of the communi ties look­ ing after their own affairs. I wonder if he could gi ve us