Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 43A (32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-43a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the autltorlty of The Honourable D. Jame• Welding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 43A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 11 AP RIL, 1983. Printed by the Office of lhe 0-s Prinler. PrOWnt:e ot MMilobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil Fil.MON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Ho n. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Sprin gfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Monday, 11 April, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Member for lnks ter. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a Petition of the Victoria Curling Club Ltd. praying for passage of

an Act to grant additional powers to the Victoria Curling Club Ltd. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Mem ber for LaVerendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speak er, I beg to present a petition of the Steinbach Curling Club praying for the passing of

an Act granting additional powers to the Steinbach Curling Club Ltd. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present this on behalf of the Member for Fort Garr y. I beg to present the petition of Major Earl Robinson,

an Act to incorporate the Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College. Mr. Speaker, I would like to present this on behalf of the Member for Fort Gar ry. I beg to present the petition of the Portage Avenue Baptist Church,

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate Portage Avenue Baptist Church. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Prese nting Reports by Standing and Special Commi ttees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speak er, I'd like to table a statement by Provincial Min isters of Finance and Treasurers and also make a statement.

As mem bers know. on Ma rch 7th the Federal Gov ernment indicated its intention to retreat from the block funding principles of the established programs financing arrangements for health care and post secondary education and to place artificial caps on, what it views as, its suppor t for post-seco nda ry education.

The late presentation of the federal proposals has effectively precluded an opportunity for meaningful federal/provincial consultation on the matter and to a full real izat ion on the par t of bo th the Federal Government and the public of the im pact of the proposals on the financial underpinnings of these essential programs. lt is important to note, however, that it is not too late for the Federal Government to defer proceeding with its proposals and to provide an opportunity for reasonable federal/provincial consultations.

Accordingly the provinces have jointly prepared a report on the federal proposal which I have just tabled. As members are aware consultations on program objectives and conditions are under way among Health and Education Ministers respectively. In our view those consultations should be permitted to run their course and reach agre ement on recommendations for improvement.

Some of those recommendations will, no doubt, entail additional costs and the sharing of those costs between the Federal Gove rnment and th e province is a matter which should be discussed among Finance Min isters pr ior to th eir impl ementa tion. Certainly that would be our preference. Unfort unately, based on public statements to date it appears that the Federal Government is on the road to further cutbacks in its support for health and post secondary education programming, at the same time as federal program Min isters are professing interest in program impr ovements.

More im portantly as the provincial statement points out, this kind of approach not only calls into question the financial viability of program improvements, but would further threaten program viability. With regard to the current federal proposal, the Federal Government has attempted to convey the impression that its proposed cutbacks relate only to post-secondary education. In part the Federal Proposal is based on federal arguments that its support for post secondary education is overly generous, above 50 percent, and too high.

The Federal Government reaches such a conclusion regarding its share of post-secondary education costs by allocating about one-third of the EPF block fund to post-secondary education in cont rast to the fact that some three-quarters of combined health and post-second ary education sp ending in the provinces occurs on the health side. Thus, the Federal Government is proposing to allocate an unrealistically high portion of the EPF block fund to post-secondary education and too little to health care.

As a result, implementation of the federal proposal would mean that its support for health care as well as post-secondary education would be cut back. From a broad program perspective, it is important to note that while such an arbitrary allocation can result in the calculation of a federal share of post-secondary education costs in the order of 51.3 percent for 1982- 83, it also implies a federal share of health costs of under 40 percent for the same year.

In fact, the federal share of combined health and post-secondary education spending in 1982-83 stood at only 42.4 percent; a major reduction from the 50 percent federal share In 1979- 80. Provinces continue to believe comprehensive dis cussions on EPF are required, recognizing the integrated nature of the current financial arrangements and the significant decline in federal shares. 1553

Monday, 11 April, 1983 Members may also be interested to know that using the federal allocations of EPF suggests that federal shares in 19 82-83 at 39.5 percent on health and 51. 3 percent on post-secondary education have deteriorated significantly from the respective 47.8 and 55.8 percent federal shares recorded in 197 9-80 . This deterioration, partly as a result of last year's major cutbacks and partly because of the EPF escalator, is not keeping pace with program costs and is in itself a major cause for concern regarding ongoing program viability.

If the Federal Government views as an objective reductions in its support for post-secondary education to 50 percent, it should apply the same objective to its share of health costs and raise its contribution to health care closer to 50 percent. By focusing only on what it views as support for post-secondary education, the Federal Government is simply ignoring its less than adequate support for health care and less than 50 percent support for the programs intended to be financed through the block funding arrangement.

The provincial report notes that, based on 198 2-83 information, federal contributions fell over $2 billion short of the 50 percent share, both of health costs and of combi ned health and post-secondary education costs. I should note that the above presentation of the federal shares include the value of the tax point transfer, 13 .5 percentage points of personal income tax and 1 percentage point of corporation income tax, as part of the federal contribution.

Inasmuch as these tax points are levied by the provinces and paid by individual taxpayers to the provincial treasuries, it is questionable whether they should legitimately be included as part of the federal contribution. On the basis of established programs financing cash payments auth orized by Parliament, the fede ral contribution to the overall costs of post-secondary education and health care in Canada represents just 21. 3 percent. The provinces have experienced a degree of frustration as a result of the federal approach to discussions affecting these vital programs.

As noted earlier, segregated consultations are continuing among program Ministers on health and post-secondary programmatic concerns respectively. While those discussions are valuable and worthwhile to ensure a full understanding of desirable objectives for programs, they do not provide any forum for meaningful consideration as to how any increases in overall costs should be shared between the two levels of government.

They are also incompatible with the federal proposals to further reduce its support, particular in light of the substantial erosion of federal support for these vital programs over the last four years. In

summary, the provinces recognize the importance of maintaining high quality health and post-secondary education programming for all Canadians. They also recognize the im portant contribution the Federal Government has made to the success of th ese programs. Sign ificant ongoing support from a strong central government is a prerequisite to ensuring that these programs remain available to. all.

The provinces, therefore, ask the Federal Government to refrain from the new round of cutbacks in health and post-seco ndary support and to commit itself to negotiating in good faith with provincial Fina nce Ministers, future financial arrangements for health and post-secondary education progra mming. The importance of the programs involved demands no less. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabale Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Honourable Minister of Finance for his statement; for making it available to us.

I want to say, Sir, that the Progressive Conservative caucus will want to explore the implications of the subject matter that is addressed by the Minister's statement very, very carefully before making detailed and comprehensive comments on this situation. I would only take a moment if I may, Sir, to make one or two initial observations. First, with respect to the Federal Government, if I may borrow a phrase from the Honourable Minister of Finance, they can't have it both ways.

On the one hand, they appear to be deploring the fact that Al berta is talking about introducing deterrent fees in health care; deploring the fact that British Columbia is apparently talking about introducing user fees in health care; and on the other hand, they appear to be maneuvering with and manipulating th e arrangements of the EPF legislation that was designed to reinforce and guarantee universal health care and support for post-secondary education.

Our system of univ ersal health care which is cherished, I think by all Canadians, depends fundamentally on the kinds of principles and concepts embodied in the EPF legislation. If that is to be eroded and if provinces like Alberta and British Columbia have received a hint that it is to be eroded, then, Sir, I for one, can fully understand why they may be doing what they are currently doing.

I don't subscribe to it, and I'm not suggesting that anyone in Manitoba should be thinking in th ose terms, but one can certa inly understand what Alberta and British Columbia may be doing if the Federal Government is trying to opt out of and cut back on its commitments to support the princi ple s of universal med icare and universal hospitalization in this country.

I don't kno w tha t the subject matter is being addressed as intensively and aggressively by the current Government of Manitoba and the current Finance Minister as it should be, but we will be looking at that and analyzing the Minister's statement and the subject matter in general on which the Minister's statement revolves, Mr. Speaker.

I would only say, on behalf of my party, that it is a disturbing development, both for my colleague, the chief opposition critic for Education and for me in my role as Health critic and for all of our respective colleagues in the caucus, as these two fields require sincerity and integrity on the part of the Federal Government where support funding is concerned. The current system is EPF.

If Ottawa doesn't like it then the provinces and Ottawa should be sitting down around a table working out the problems, not making moves from withdrawn positions and from prot ected positions and from insulated positions that don't take into account the difficulties that the provinces face in meeting their obligations in these two fields. We'll be looking very intensively at this subject and commenting further, Mr. Speaker. 1554

Monday, 11 April, 1983 RETURN TO ORDER NO. 14 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to file Return to Order of the House No. 14, which order was dated February 24, 19 83 on the motion of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. E. KOSTYRA introduced Bill No. 50, The Manitoba lntercultural Council Act;

Loi sur le conseil interculturel du Manitoba. INT RODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Gallery where we have 32 students of Grade 5 standing from the Pare La Salle School under the direction of Miss Redman. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Fox lake Mine MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines.

Could t.he Minister of Energy and Mines confirm the unfortu nate news that Sherritt Gordon's Fox Lake Mine is expected to shut down within the next three to four years with potentially catastrophic results for the people of Lynn Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, at a question and answer session with the Chamber of Commerce in Lynn Lake on Frida y, the mines manager there did indicate that the ore at Fox Lake would indeed run out in three to four years and that there could be severe implications of this for the community of Lynn Lake if other ore wasn't found for development purposes. MR. B. RANSOM: A supplementary question to the Minister, Mr. Speaker. When did the Minister first learn that this might be the situation? HON. W. PARASIUK: The department has been aware for some time that the ore at Fox Lake did have a somewhat definite life to it.

People weren't sure exactly when it would be running out. I had heard some indication that it could be running out in three to four years. I had been told that there would be development work being undertaken in and around the area, and the announcement with specific dates attached to it did come as a surprise to me, Mr. Speaker. MR. B. RANSOM: A further supplementary to the Minister, Mr. Speaker. Has his department been asked by Sherritt Gordon to participate in an exploration program in the vicinity of Lynn Lake? HON. W. PARASIUK: Not quite, Mr. Speaker.

We have asked Sherritt Gordon - we have indicated to them that we are prepared to enter into joint exploration ventures with them in and around the Lynn Lake area relating to copper, lead, zinc exploration. To date, Sherritt Gordon has not responded positively to our request to undertake joint venture explorations with them. They, in fact, have a lot of the mine leases in and around the Lynn Lake area, so, Mr. Speaker, if they're interested in the joint ventures, they in fact, will have to do it on land that in close proximity to Lynn Lake is held by them. We have not had any responses from them in that respect.

They did make application to the Manitoba Mineral Resources Limited to consider a joint venture with respect to a gold mine. That was conside red by Manitoba Min eral Resources on a commercial basis. If the member can recall, the Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation is operating now the way it was before, namely tha t it consi ders joint venture applications from private companies on a commercial basis without any type of outside involvement from the government.

It was their judgment that given the particular proposal that they had received from Sherritt Gordon, they had some questions about the viability of that mine proposal, and that secondly, they had some questions about the joint venture proposal itself.

The door is certain still open for a modified joint venture proposal to come forward from Sherritt Gordon if they find that their cash flow situation is such, given the difficulties that they've been experiencing in the mining indust ry, and of more magnititude to them, the difficulty they've had in finishing up the fertilizer plant that they've undertaken in Alberta at a cost of $400 million. It has, indeed, suffered some cost over-runs and is late coming into production. They are suffering some cash flow problems.

They, in fact, are invited to put forward joint venture proposals to Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation which I'm sure that given the staff there, they will receive a good, solid consideration on a commercial basis by that entity. MR. B. RANSOM: Another question to the Minister of Energy and Mines, Mr. Speaker.

Is the Minister of Energy and Mines aware that almost two months ago, Sherritt Gordon Mines made a submission under the new Employment Expansion and Development Program to the Provincial and Federal Governments, whereby an expenditure of roughly $2 million would have provided a reasonable opportunity to prove up sufficient ores that could potentially lead to another decade of viability of Lynn Lake and the mine in that area? HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I was aware that Sherritt Gordon applied for a joint federal-provincial grant, instead of pursuing the opportunity that they 1555

Monday, 11 April, 1983 have had extended to them for some time of looking for joint equity participation. We have said, Mr. Speaker, that we are prepared to look at resource development jointly with private companies in Manitoba and to do so - and to take taxpayers' money and put this in on an equity basis - so that if there are any resources found, the taxpayers would get a retu rn on tha t particular input that they would make. It would appear from what the opposition is saying that they would like the Government of Manitoba to provide grants to the private companies and not take an equity participation.

I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we do have a fair system of joint venture possibilities, and that we are prepared to look at joint ventures where the private company would put up their fair share of money; the publ ic through the Manitob a Mineral Resources Corporation would put up its fair share of money; and development would then be undertaken. If the private sector refuses to look or make proposals of a reasonable nature with respect to joint ventures, and instead opts for the grant route then, Mr. Speaker, we will have a very different program in place for the development of our resources.

I would expect that all members of the House would want us to get a fair return for our fair share investment that we make in resource development. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Sp eaker, almost two months ago, Sherrill Gordon advised both governments through their submission that Sherritt would have no reason to maintain a presence in Lynn Lake after 19 85, and that there was no potential for additional reserves at Fox Lake and for exploration of additional sulphide ore reserves. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister has had that information in his hands now for almost a full two months and has rejected the possibility of providing $750,000 of investment that might see the Town of Lynn Lake maintained for another decade. How long is this government prepared to stand by and see communities, and the business people in those communities, and the employees of that mine have no future? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, as I said, this government is prepared to look at any proposal for investment. Mr. Speaker, we are quite prepared to make investments.

The opposition is asking us to provide grant monies to private companies instead, and those are what people call giveaway, Mr. Speaker. When you have the option of pursuing a joint venture proposal on a joint investment basis and you say that you're prepared to negotiate with companies to pursue that, Mr. Speaker, I believe that is the proper approach to take. There can be applications from private companies that don't want to necessarily pursue a joint venture and joint investment program, but would rather want to get grants from Provincial or Federal Governments. Mr.

Speaker, we have said that we believe we can develop our resources jointly. There have been other instances where private companies and the Provincial Government through Manitoba Mineral Resources Corporation have undertaken joint ventures through joint investments. This will be the first time, apart from some of the grants that the Conservatives gave with respect to the whole CFI venture, where governments ��- have been giving grants to resource companies to develop resources, Mr. Speaker.

I believe that the public would appreciate and would want a joint investment program, not a giveaway program with respect to resources. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the proposal put forward by Sherritt Gordon Mines is under the new Employment Expansion and Development Program, the purpose of which was to create jobs.

My question then is to the First Minister, since his Minister of Energy and Mines has managed to blow every major development that's been under way in this province, such as the Western Power Grid and the Alcan development and the IMC development, and now refuses to proceed with a program which would have provided 2,500 man weeks of immediate employment and provide the potential for another decade of viability for Lynn Lake, will the First Minister agree to provide that funding out of the Jobs Fund? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, we are prepared to look at any application pertaining to the Jobs Fund, but we are not prepared, as the Minister of Energy and Mines has very clearly indicated to this House, we are not prepared to give funds away and to provide grants without return investment insofar as Manitobans are concerned. That may very well be the policy of the members across the way. It is not the policy of this New Democratic Party Government. Keenberg Resignation - Racing Commission MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism can inform the House if the news report that came over one of the radio stations this morning that Mr. Keenberg, the Racing Com missioner, has resigned, is factual or not? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Keenburg has resigned, Mr. Speaker. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the com missioner, as this Minister states, has resigned. Does the Minister intend to accept Mr. Keenberg's resignation? 1556 HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Sp eak er, Cabi net will be discussing the matter on Wednesday. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speak er, I wonder if the Minister can inform the House if the Cabinet will be discussing it on the basis of the bad handling the commission did with respect to hiring a new director who was not a Canadian citizen, or were they going to discuss it on the basis of the fact tha t the

Monday, 11 April, 1983 commissioner said that racing would continue as usual early in 19 82, and it didn't. Will they discuss it on the fact that the commission has been in a turmoil since the commission er took office or will they discuss it on the fact that he demanded a private table and wanted to change the dress, wear ing jeans, at the Assiniboia Downs? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the Cabinet will be discussing the issue on its merits. I'm sure one strong component of the discussion will be a recognition of the hours and hours of exemplary work given by this chairperson.

I wonder if the member opposite - he has particular reason to recall, if he will, the condition of the track and the commission when we took over - and I could cite at length, Mr. Speaker, the accomplishments of the commission, very hard solid work, and I'm quite sure the Cabinet will be looking at the question with the substance of the issue and not all the peripheral items raised by the member opposite. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I would just like to ask the Minister, Mr . Spea ker, if she is saying tha t the previous commissioner , Mr. Sid Halter, had left things in a terrible condition. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I have steered very clear in this Ho use from blaming people for di fficult conditions, but it should be said that we did inherit a very difficult problem with the track. We had incomplete financial reporting; we had just an arrangement out there that was not sound; and we had, in fact, to deal very delicately with a situation where we could not be seen to be commenting on the viability of the current operator for fear of throwing him into a premature bankruptc y.

On the other hand, we wanted to ensure an ongoing racing season for the hundreds and hundreds of people working at the track, the tourists who find it a central attract ion, the people of Manitoba who value that track, I think, Mr.

Speak er, the accomplishments dur ing the year of weathering a very difficult bank ruptcy, of having a very short hiatus in the racing season, of reestablishing the thoroughbr ed season and concluding it almost at a break-even space, conducting a highly successful har ness ra cing sea son, we now have in place a horsemen's agreement with the new almost legally completed owner of the track; we have a horsemen agreement with them that I think is the best that has been agreed on; and I, for one, feel those are facts that should be known by the public of Manitoba. Unemployment increase MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker , the most recent unemp loyment statistics indi cate tha t the unemployment rate for young people in the Province of Manitoba between the ages of 15 and 24 has risen by almost a full percentage point to 18 .3 percent. My question to the Minister of Labour is this: Would she indicate to the House how many actual persons that 18 .3 percent figure repres ents? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker , I'm pleased that the member opposite has given me the opportunity to talk about the unemployment rate and to answer that question for him. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a point of order MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert on a point of order. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I asked the Minister of Labour a very precise figure as to the actual num ber that this represents. We have a lot of questions, Mr. Speaker , on this point of order , to ask the Minister of Labour. We would like to be doing it in Estimates where she refuses to answer questions.

So far, our only resort is to ask them in the House, Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point of order. HON. R. PENNER: On the same non-point of order - it is precisely that, a non-point of order - to begin to try and dictate the answer to a question is the height of presumption. it's nothing to do with being a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour may answer the question. HON. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I'll try again to answer the member's question; he didn't give me a chance before.

Obviously, at this time of year the unemployment rate among young people does increase as they come on to the labour force. We are doing somet hing about that, of course, with our employment programs for young people and there are several of them in place and they are meeting with a great deal of success. Those young people, many many of them, thousands of them, will have the opportunity to be at work within just a week or two.

The increase in the unemployment rate for young men and women between the ages of 15 and 24 is greater for young men than it is for young women as they come into this group, but that simply outlines to us the need to reach that particular group, and that's exactly what we are doing. I am particularly pleased that our unemployment rate overall has dropped to 9. 7 percent; one of only two provinces in this country that is below 10 percent. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , in view of the fact that the unemp loyment rate for young people in the Province of Manitoba last year under the NDP Government had risen astronomically then to 14 percent and has now risen even further to 18.3 percent, and we are presently in Labour Estimates, supposed to be di scussing employment programs for young people, will she now answer que stions with respect to emp loyment programs for young people; particularly, when everything we have 1557

Monday, 11 April, 1983 heard to date so far indicates that there will be no expansion of employment programs for young people, that they will be at the same levels as last year, in spite of the fact that the level has risen from 14 percent last year to 18 .3 percent now. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I think there was a question in that statement somewhere but I'm not exactly sure what it was. I would like to assure the member, as I did on Friday assure this House, that the calls coming in for the Careerstart Program are tremendous.

We've had over 1, 500 calls just to the central office in the past week and those calls are resulting in private businesses and non-profit groups applying for wage subsidies under the program. I would also be happy to answer questions about our other employment programs which impact on youth unem ployment, such as the STEP in government program, for which I have not received a single question in my Estimates. Quality of dr inking water City of Winnipeg MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Ho nourable Min ister respon si ble for the Environment. In view of the rather startlin g and sensat ional comments that were made last week at a conference that, I understand, the Minister attended, a conference on Workplace Health and Safety by the Manitoba Federation of Labour - the comments made by a Dr.

Linda Murray, the Executive Director, of the organization said in part that the Provincial and City Government should not wait until more bodies pile up before getting rid of the water mains in the City of Winnipeg - I wonder if the Minister can give any assurance, whatsover, to the people of Winnipeg that their drinking water supply is safe? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, what I can give to the people of Winnipeg and to the individuals in other communities in the province, as the member knows, who may be drinking waters that are being transmitted to them by cement asbestos pipes, the assurance that I can give to them is that the Provincial Government has entered into discussions with the City of Winnipeg on this matter. We expect to review it further.

We have been involved in those discussions for some time now and we are awaiting a report right now from the National Academy of Sciences which is doing a study and a report on ingested asbestos and that's expected to be completed early in this year, in 19 83. We're also participating in a federal/ provi ncia l working group on drinking water quality and that group is expected to have its first meeting in June of this year.

So, through those activities we are hoping to build up a body of documentation which will enable us to make the type of assurances which the mem ber requests. or conversely so, will enable us to take the type of action which is necessary so that th ose assurances can be made. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I guess we have to assume that the Minister cannot give us the assurance that the drinking water is safe and in view of that, does he have any idea what it would cost to replace the asbestos cement watermains throughout the Province of Manitoba in order to al leviate any concern for danger? HON. J.

COWAN: Well, it certainly would be a significant amount of money and I can't give the member any more of a clearer indication than that. But what I can give to the member and I think what he is asking is the assurance that the Provincial Government will, in its area of responsibility, continue to work with other authorities to ensure that we have documentation which is necessary to provide assurances on the quality of drinking water in this province and in instances where we bel ieve action is neces sary. We have the documentation and the strategy which is necessary to undertake that action.

So, we will continue to work with the Federal Government by way of the Advisory Commit tee on Occupational Environmental Health and the federal/provincial working group. We will continue to work with the City of Winni peg and other muni cipaliti es through discussions with them and hopefully, where necessary, we can come up with those cost figures which would be necessary to replace mains if that is determined to be an appropriate course of action. At this point I can't indicate whether or not that would be an appropriate course of action, given the body of information which we have available to us.

There is conflicting viewpoints on this particular subject, as the member is aware, and we certainly want to take all those viewpoints into consideration when trying to determine the appropriate action for the province to take in this regard. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, very simply, in view of some rather sensational comments being made by Dr. Murray, there are two things that the people of this province want. Either, (

a) an assurance that their water supply is safe, or, (

b) an assurance that this government will undertake the program necessary to replace them. My final question, Mr. Speaker, is, will the province, therefore, be willing to make this a priority project under the Jobs Fund to replace all the watermains in the Province of Manitoba, if he cannot give us the assurance that the water supply is safe? HON. J.

COWAN: I think the point that the member is missing is that while one would not be able to give an absolute assurance that there is not a difficulty in regard to asbestos in drinking water as a result of these mains being used, one also cannot give an absolute assurance that there is a difficulty in this regard. Dr. Murray has made some comments and expressed an opinion, there are others including the City of Winnipeg, including the Federal Government, including others who have studied this area that give a different opinion.

What I think the responsibility of the Provincial Government in this regard has to be is to continue to 1558

Monday, 11 April, 1983 work with those groups to ensure that, in fact, the information that we have is up-to-date in a general way and is specific to what is happening in this province and that we indicate that we are prepared to take remedial actions or to participate with others to take remedial actions where it has been found that that action is necessary.

I think that is the assurance that the people of this province expect and I feel comfortable that, by giving that assurance, we have indicated our concern and, at the same time, have indicated a willingness to work with others to resolve this issue in whatever way is deemed appropriate, once that further information is available to us. It would be foolish at this stage to pre empt the work which is ongoing by the federal/provincial working group on drinking water quality at this stage without having the oppo rtun ity to review their deliberations and their determinations. MR. G. FILMON:: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister has given me a very lengthy response. Basically - given the best information available to his department can he say whether or not he believes, at the present time, based on the information available, the drinking water supply is safe or not? The people of Winnipeg have a right to know. HON. J. COWAN: I can indicate that my department has reviewed the literature which is available on this particular subject and they indicate to me that they have not found significant studies to substantiate the comments which were made by Dr.

Murray, but at the same time, as she indicated, one does not want to solely rely upon epidemiological studies in order to determine what is safe and what isn't safe. So they are taking an anticipatory stance and working with the Federal Government and reviewing the literature which is coming out of other jurisdictions in order to either substantiate that viewpoint which they are commonly holding now or, for the purpose of determining that action is necessary and, if so, what action would be necessary and how they would want to proceed.

I'm sorry that the member considers it to be a rather lengthy answer but I think it's important that one understand a very complex subject in the most accurate and complete way. I hope that these comments have been able, through him, and through an answer to him, to assure those residents of the City of Winnipeg that this matter is being reviewed and that, in fact, we are looking at it from an anticipatory stance.

I drink the water in the City of Winnipeg, as do most members in this particular Legislature, - (I nterjection) - and in fact, I do so based on the evidence which has been presented to me with a sense that my health is not being unduly impair ed. But, I've been wrong before and so have others so we do want to maintain that anticipatory stance and make certain that we are aware of the latest developments in this very complex matter. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'm well aware, as most members are, that studies have been ongoing on this problem and concern for many many years.

The point is that a very grave concern has been raised in the minds of people by a very sensational statement made by a person in a position of responsibility. I want this Minister to go so far as to tell us, whether or not the information that he has available says that people should im med iately go out and buy dist illation equipment and stop drinking the water from the City of Winnipeg's water supply; or whether or not they can continue to drink it with no further concern than they had the day before this report was issued? HON. J.

COWAN: Well, if the member had learned anything in his tenure as Minister of the Environment, he should have learned that we are often faced to make choices on the basis of incomplete information, and that there are differing perspectives to problems that we are forced to make decisions upon. I can tell the member that we are waiting the report on the National Academy of Sciences on ingested asbestos which is expected this year .

I can tell the member that the first draft of a report being prepared by Health and Welfare Canada, on a review of literature regarding the ingestion of asbestos, should be available within a few weeks. We have contaced, in our anticipatory way, Health and We lfare Canada, and they have ind icated tha t preliminary findings were that the risk associated with the ingestion of asbestos in drinking water is extremely small. Those are their words, or tho se are the words which are presented to me on their behalf.

Even if they are extremely sma ll, we want to take tha t into consideration in determining appropriate courses of action. The Health and Welfare Canada has also indicated that work done by the World Health Organization confirmed their preliminary findings. As well, on October 13th and 14 th of 1982, the United States Environmental Protection Agency conducted a workshop on ingested asbestos. That workshop, in its concluding remarks, confirmed the preliminary findings which I just indicated to the member in respect to the Health and Welfare Study and the World Health Organization Study.

Now, having all that evidence available to us, we still want to review the two new documents which we feel before coming in the near future. The one from the National Academy of Sciences and the other from the Federal Provincial Working Group. When I have that information I will be more than pleased to share it with the member opposite. MR. H. ENNS: Then you will be able to tell the people where they can drink the water? HON. J. COWAN: Well the people will have to choose as they do with so many things in this life, to the Member for Lakeside. SOME. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: We're asking you, you're the Minister.

Can the people drink the water? What's happened to my nose? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. HON. J. COWAN: The people will have to choo se on the basis of the information which is available to them, and I would ho pe that the responsibili ty of this government is to ensure that they have accurate information available to them that, in fact, acknowledges 1559

Monday, 11 April, 1983 that there are a number of opinions on this very important subject to public health. Rail-line upgrading MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I have a que stion for the Mini ster of Hi gh ways and Transportation. Over the last few days there have been a number of press reports that have indicated that a C.N. official told the Standing Comm ittee on Agriculture that rail upgrading, related to the recent change of the Crow rate, will be undertaken on mainlines and not on branchl ines, such as, the line to Churc hill.

I was wondering whether the Minister could confirm that this statement was made and also indicate whether there has been any further feedback from C.N. or the Federal Government as to the status of upgrading for the rail lines to the Port of Churchill? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Highways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, yes, I can confirm that the C.N. official that appeared at the Agricultural Comm ittee hearing last week did indicate that their are no plans within the CNR Corporation at the moment for maintaining the necessary boxcar fleet in order to carry grain to the Port of Churchill for an indefinite period but, in fact, stated that by 198 6-87 they will be down to a minimum level of boxcar supply and, beyond that, below minimum in order to meet present delivery targets or present delivery systems.

So that, in essence, there is an absence of any commitment on the part of the CNR for continued delivery to that port. He had also indicated that it was really up to the Government of Canada to determine whether or not there is a future with respect to that Port and that rail line. I believe that is where we are, Mr. Speaker. I believe the CNR will sit back and wait for federal initiative or some public subsidy in order to maintain that line into the future. MR. S. ASHTON: Well, in view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that the upgrading is vital to the future of, not only the rail line but the Port of Churchill and the community of Churchill itself, I was wondering if the Minister would pass on the concern, I am sure is shared by all members of this House, about the lack of a commitment made by C.N. or the Federal Government to upgrading that port and the rail line itself? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Before we continue, may I remind all members that questions should deal with matters that are within the administrative competence of this government. I notice that they've tended to wander a little bit of late.

Political signs or posters MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE:· Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Government Services. Can the Minister tell me what the policy of this government is with respect to the political signs or posters being displayed in provincial buildings? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the specifics of those that the member is referring to. Perhaps, he would be willing to share more information on what political posters he's talking about.

There is a comm ittee that is set up to deal with displays in this building from the Department of Cultural Affairs and Department of Government Services that reviews all requests for displays and then makes a decision on the basis and the merits of the request that is made to that comm ittee. MR. L. HYDE: To the same Minister. Is there a policy in place at this time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I said very clearly that there is a mechanism in place and there is a committee set up that reviews all requests for displays in the building and th en decide s and makes recommendations on the basis of the requests that are made. So, the policy is that a committee is set up to review requests that are made. MR. L. HYDE: For some time, Mr. Speaker, I've noticed an NOP election sign prominently displayed in a window of our provincial building at Portage la Prairie. Mr.

Sp eaker, I have photographs here with me displaying the provincial building in Portage la Prairie and with a "Elect Harper" sign, NOP sign, in the second window on the top storey of the building. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. L. HYDE: My question, Sir, is to the Minister, did he authorize this NOP sign to be put in this building? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, the answer I gave on the first occasion was for the Legislative building, that there is a committee set up to review; in terms of other government buildings, Mr. Speaker, there is no particular policy with regard to displays.

I am not aware of that particular situation that the member is referring to. I can find out information on that, Mr. Speaker. MR. L HYDE: A further question to the same Minister. Will the Mini ster instruct the Minister of Natural Resources, from whose department window the sign is being displayed, to remove the same? In fact, Mr. Speaker, it is a sign encouraging the people, I believe, of my constituency to elect Mr. Harper. My question, is, Mr. Speaker, is it the intention of the Member for Rupertsland to run against me in the next election? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, there has been no authorization for such a sign to be placed in any 1560

Monday, 11 April, 1983 window by the Minister, and certainly that has to be the action of an individual member - I'm not sure, if it would be a member of the civil service who has placed it there, Mr. Speaker. But there's been no authorization, and certainly no one from the government is trying to encou rage anyone to vote for the Member for Rupertsland in your constituency. MR. L. HYDE: I'm asking him, is going to have that sign removed from that window? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, we'll certainly make sure that the sign is removed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to be as kind to the Minister of Government Services as possible. Surely, Mr. Speaker, he can respond to the principle behind the questions being asked. Sur ely, there is a policy that this government has not changed because I can assure him that the policy was in place, that on Provincial Government buildings, election propaganda signs are not displayed. Surely, he can confirm that policy is still in place. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I haven't seen the sign, so I don't know if it's an election sign.

Certainly, there's no election in place at this time, therefore, there is no campaign going on. Mr. Speaker, I have indicted that we will make sure that the sign is removed if it is indeed in fact in place. MR. H. ENNS: I then ask the Minister this simple, straightforward question, can we as Conservatives adorn pr ovincial buildi ngs with Progr essive Conservative signs tomorrow, the next day, and leading up to the next election? Can we do that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, certainly not. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, "certainly not".

So now we finally come to ask for it, but NOP signs can be put on provincial buildings. Is that what he's telling us? He has pictures of that being the case, and nobody questioning anybody whether it should be removed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Portage la Prairie is referring to pictures. We don't know the authenticity of those pictures.

You're not allowed to bring displays into the House, and for him to stand up in this House and use pictures of any sort; displays of any sort; is clearly out of order and clearly not part of the rules of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, on that same point of order the Member for lnkster is refuting - (I nterjection) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. There is no point of order before the House. Order please. 1561 There is no point of order before the House. Labour force statistics MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour. Can the Minister tell us which sector of the labour force in this month's labour statistics showed the greatest improvement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speak er, I'm pleased to answer that question for the Member for Wolseley. The greatest improvement in actual numbers is in women in full-time jobs. The participation rate in the province has remained the same. Our labour force is increasing all the time, but people are finding jobs and the actual numbers that are increasing the most are in the full-time area.

I'm pleased that's happening. It's unfortunate that women traditionally, of course, receive less money for the work they do, so I would suggest that the money coming into the economy is not increasing at the rate that it should, but at least the women are working. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Government House Leader. COMMITTEE CHANGES HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make an announcement with respect to committee meetings.

Because of the expected absence for health reasons of the Chairman of the Board of Flyer Industries, the meeting of the Sta nding Commit tee on Economic Development for April 21, 1983 will be held on May 26. Mr. Sp eaker, ther e'll be a meeting of Law Amendments on Thursday, April 21, 1983 to complete the hearing of the briefs on surface rights and to the extent possible, consider the other bills referred. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I beg leave to make a non political statement. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) The .Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMA N: Mr. Sp eak er, I'd like to congratulate the Dauphin Kings who this past weekend added to their impressive Manitoba Junior Hockey League title the Manitoba Junior Hockey championship, by defeating the NorMan champions from The Pas; The Pas Huskies. Before that, of course, Mr. Spe aker, they were successful in the Manitoba Junior Hockey League championship by defeating the St. Bonface Saints.

Monday, 11 Ap1·i1, 1983 The Dauphin Kings will go on now to meet the Saskatchewan champions for the Centennial Cup. Over the years, the Kings have certainly brought fame and respect to the community of Dauphin, Mr. Speaker, for their excellent sportsmanship and their fine skills in hockey. As their MLA, I want to congratulate them on behalf of the members of the House and wish them every success in the future. COMMITTE CHANGES Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I know it's not question period, but I rise on a point of order.

The Government House Leader has changed a committee hearing to the 21 st of April when we are to be at Brandon at a Crow rate hearing. As well, I'm on the Law Amendents Committee, Mr. Speaker, where The Surf ace Rights Bill is being heard. I find it somewhat difficult to be in both places at the same time. It is of interest to me as a member representing the southwest, and as well on the Agriculture Committee. I wonder if he's going to continue to place committee meetings on when we've already got them scheduled on the Order Paper, Mr. Speaker.

It's very difficult to plan one's work activity with that kind of leadership from the Government House Leader. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: I will certainly take the concern of the Member for Arthur into account. It is difficult with so many committee meetings taking place to prevent overlap. Most of the delegations on surface rights have been heard. I'm sure other of his colleagues will be there to hear the other three. There may be an additional one or two. For the rest of the time, we will move to consideration of some of the bills referred. Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Employment Services. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR AND EMPLOYMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C.

Santos: Committee please come to order. We are now on Item 3.(a)(1 )(a). The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we are discussing the Emplo yment Development and Youth Services Branch and four employmees who are supposedly monitoring job creation projects in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, the unemployment statistics for the month of March, 1983, which we received today, indicate that with respect to youth, between the ages of 15 and 24, the unemployment rate has gone up from February, 1983, at 17 .5 percent to 18 .3 percent in March, 1983, and that's compared to 14 percent in March of 19 82. My question to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is how many persons does that 18 .3 percent represent; how many young people between 15 and 24 are in the official unemployment statistics? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: Those statistics just came out from Labour Canada this morn ing.

We can have the translation into actual numbers of people for you later on, but it's not available yet. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, how many persons did the 17 .5 percent figure represent then? HON. M. DOLIN: It was just upwards of 17 ,000 people. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister expla in why, on the Careerstart inf ormation and regulations, on the outside of the little brochure, there is the reference to the Minister, the Department of Labour and Em ployment Services, and the Youth Employment and Youth Services Branch; and inside, on Page 1, says that the Employment Development and Youth Services Branch of the Department of Labour and Employment Services is offering wage assistance, and the phone number on the back of the application form is the Emplo yment Development and Youth Services Branch phone number; why those references? HON. M.

DOLIN: As I have explained at some length on previous occasions during the last week, the program is administered by that branch of my department, just as some public buildings that are being constructed are administered by Government Services Branch, and brush cleari ng and reforestation programs are administered by the Department of Natural Resources, and so on. This particular program is being administered by that branch of my department. MR. G. MERCIER: By which employees? HON. M.

DOLIN: I think it's important to clarify just how these programs are monitored and how they are reassigned to departments from the Jobs Fund. Now, this program, which I can speak about, of course, with more information and intelligence, and so on, than some of the programs administered and monitored by other departments, is operated or run or administered, whichever word you want to use, by the staff of that branch. The staff people who are monitoring the Jobs Fund itself are looking at the totality of the Jobs Fund.

The whole point in having a Jobs Fund was to be able to present to the people of Manitoba and, therefore, to you people as well, the entire picture of the attack on unemployment that is taking place this year. 1562

Monday, 11 April, 1983 The staff people that you are referring to that show an increase in this particular branch - two for an increase, two have been redeployed - will be looking at the entire Jobs Fund and the impact that it is having on unemployment, and they will be bringing to the Jobs Fund Comm ittee information on that so we can make decisions based on that. It's important that we know if there are any places in this province that are hard hit by unemployment so that we can target them with new programs.

We need to know what our existing programs are doing; we need to know whether the acceleration of capital projects is sufficient or whether we ought to take another look at it. We need to know all of these things and we cannot do it unless we have a group tha t is monitoring the entire attack on unemployment. That is the job of the people who have been given that particular assignment. The entire group of staff within this branch will take care of monitoring, administration, and so on, any program that is assigned to them. Careerstart is one of the programs assigned to them.

Also, they administrate programs such as the Manitoba Employment Action Program, the STEP Program for students in government, and so on. There are a number of things that they do administrate and monitor and this is just one of them. MR. G. MERCIER: Just to be a little more specific then, Mr. Chairman, is the Minister saying that the four people employed in this Item (a)(1) are monitoring the overall effects of the Jobs Fund, and that in Item (a)(2), Administration, that is where the actual people are employed that administer, for example, Careerstart? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, that's correct. MR. G.

MERCIER: Fine, I'll defer my questions then, Mr. Chairman, on Careerstart until we get to Item (a)(2) because that's where it is administered. Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that there is research going on here, an overall monitoring. Can the Minister give us any information with respect to the reports she has received from these four people in this area on the future of the Jobs Fund, and the rate at which we can expect jobs to be created in Manitoba? HON. M.

DOLIN: This particular unit, the Jobs Fund unit, of staff has just become operational in the last few weeks, so they are doing the research and getting the information together, and are just beginning at this point to report to the comm ittee. MR. G. MERCIER: When were the two new people appointed? HON. M. DOLIN: There is one appointment effective April 1st and there is one vacancy at this point. The other two people that you mentioned were redeployed, in fact, the third person applied from within government too. One of the new people, new to our department, was also from within government.

The other vacancy is in the process of being filled and will be filled from within as well. MR. G. MERCIER: Is this the group of people that would be recommending criteria for programs under the Jobs Fund. HON. M. DOLIN: This is just the group that monitors the programs and oversees the fiscal or financial arrangements for it; monitors that. MR. G. MERCIER: Has there been any work done on the development of criteria for programs under the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: The deve lopment of cri teria is something that is taking place right now.

The part of the unit that is responsible for that is the planning and development part of the job creation unit and that group, the small group, works dir ectly under the Assistant Deputy Minister. MR. G. MERCIER: On February 25th, the First Minister made a statement to the House that a Jobs Fund Comm ittee of Cabinet would begin immediately to prepare criteria that emp hasize the number of jobs created. The Minister is a member of that committee, has there been no action taken on that? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, there is action being taken on that.

Some of the criteria has been developed, more is being developed; it is being refined, there is still work to be done. The comm ittee obviously had a number of items that it dealt with. Some of those have been announced and I have pointed them out to you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Possibly you can help me a bit. I am just wondering whether it would be proper to ask questions under the Careerstart Program, as to when and to whom did the application forms get sent out? Would that be under this category or under Item (a)(2)? MR.

CHAIRMAN: It would be the next one. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, I'll wait. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I have some difficulty with the answers the Minister of Labour was giving, specifically saying that she didn't feel that it was her responsibility to answer when it was a branch of her department that were responsible for it. Who does she think pays the wages of those people who work for the different branches of her department? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that a rhetorical question or a question? MR. J.

DOWNEY: No, it's a question of who pays the wages of the people that work for the different branches of her department? HON. M. DOLIN: I'm not sure what the question is. Who pays the wages. MR. J. DOWNEY: Who pays the wages, Mr. Chairman, for the branches that she doesn't feel should answer to this comm ittee? That's what I want to know. 1563

Monday, 11 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: I would ask the member to indicate a little more clearly what statement he is referring to that he says that I made? MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, earlier the questioning came from the Member for St. Norbert on specifics dealing with this department and I think the response was that, and I'm not precise maybe in this response, but she said that those people worked, they monitored, and they were at a specific branch of her department, leaving the impression to the committee that she shouldn't have to answer to the comittee on the activities of that branch. HON. M.

DOLIN: Not at all, Mr. Chairman. In fact, I have read the job descriptions of those people into the record, and if the member would care to peruse Hansard from last week, he would find it there. I have very clearly defined and would be happy to redefine the jobs of those people. They are assigned to work within this branch of this Department of Employment Services, and we can talk and we can answer any questions you wish about the work of those people and what they are assigned to do. What I did delineate for the Member for St.

Norbert was the difference in the job of the regular staff of the department - mo nitor ing, administering, and so on - programs that are the responsibility of that branch, and the job of the people within the job creation unit - the Jobs Fund unit, if you will - whose job is quite different in that it is much larger than the responsibility of the regular staff within the department, because their task is to look at the entire effort of the Jobs Fund and the Jobs Fund Com mittee and report back to us on what they see what has been expended, what the results have been, and so on. MR. J.

DOWNEY: In other words, the Minister is not trying to say that she is not going to answer for her department then; that regardless of the branch that it falls within, she is prepared to answer to this committee the questions that the opposition are asking. HON. M. DOLIN: I have always said that I am ready to answer any question that you have. If you ask a specific question about a budget line that is not in this appropriation, then I will have to simply defer that question till later, but I will certainly answer it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was just wondering if the appropriate item to ask questions about the STEP Program and the MEAP Program are the present appropriations. HON. M. DOLIN: Those two programs are administered by this branch. A cor rect ion, if I could; under Emplo yment Progr ams you would find the STEP Pr ogram, but the Manitoba Emplo yment Action Program is a part of the Jobs Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a) (1) (a)- pass; 3.(a)( 1) (b)- pass; 3.(a) (2)(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: You're referring to 3.( a)(1) ,(

a) and (b), and there · really - I see what you're doing, Mr. Chairman - but there are no (

a) and (

b) there. On

(2) Administration, then, Mr. Chairman, where the Minister has said the empl oyees admin ister the Careerstart Program, how many jobs will be created under the Careerstart Program? HON. M. DOLIN: I think the member is aware that I have never gotten into the numbers game when we're talking about employment creation. No matter what the program, it's important to understand that if you're talking about construcition, you're talking about people doing different kinds of jobs, and some may work for two weeks, some may work for two months, some may work for two years.

Now, it is difficult to define how many jobs you've created. I'm sure the person that worked for two weeks would not say that he or she had the same job as the person who worked for two years. When we're talking about youth unemployment and we're talking about wage subsidies, there is always a differential between the private sector and the public sector because of their difference in ability to pay and the way they're budgeted and so. So the member knows that if the private sector does take up the challenge to a greater degree than the public sector, then there are going to be more young people put to work.

If the private sector does not take up this challenge, then the wage subsidy is greater to the public sector, since they are on budgets which cannot be changed, and the number of young people put to work is going to be less. So to predict the number of young people put to work would be an exercise, I think, in futility at this point. We are going to put as many to work as possible. We are certainly encouraging in every way that we can the private sector, in particular, to take up the challenge and put these young people back to work. We will help them all that we can.

We expect that we will be able to fund as many of these programs as qualify and, under those qualifications, we will make sure that young people are put back to work. I have said repeatedly that the $3 million allocated to this particular program from the Jobs Fund, which has been pointed out is virtually the same as last year, is a start. It's sort of a benchmark. We know that level of funding works for this particular kind of program. If the take-up is greater, we will certainly go back to the Jobs Fund requesting more money and I feel very certain that we will obtain it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, what is the difference between this program and the program last year? HON. M. DOLIN: Because in the press conference I outlined the differences between this year's program and those of previous years, I will give the members the information they ask; although I must point out again that the Careerstart Program is one of the Jobs Fund programs and will be discussed at great length if the members wish at the time that those Estimates are discussed. However, as I outlined in the press release, the program has been changed to include all unemployed youth, not just students as it had before.

There has been a special measures component added, which is an added incentive for the private sector to hire disabled 1564

Monday, 11 April, 1983 or Native young people, whether they are students or simply unem ployed. We have included a new ventures component which will allow young people, who have an idea that they feel would give them business experience or will add to, for the benefit of the community in which they live, that we will fund them and we will help them create the business that they're talking about. We are going to also go through some delegated referral agencies, as well as the usual way of channeling young people into these jobs and referring them to the jobs.

In some cases, where non-profit agencies have trouble coming up with the cash up front to pay the young people, we will discuss with them the possibility of some advanced funding. There's an employee benefit allowance of up to 10 percent of the wage assistance that will be provided to employers. There's also no restriction on the size of the business that can be involved. This is something that you members of the Opposition have requested frequent ly.

We determined that it would be a good idea to open this up as far as possible in every way so that there would be ample opport unity for any emp loyer to participate in the program and put these unemp loyed youths back to work. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, is it fair to say then that the program is a lot more closer to the program that was in effect two years ago? HON. M. DOLIN: No, Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't say that was correct. What I would say is that we took the best facets of the programs from previous years and put them together to make what we think is an outstanding program. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a few questions that I would like to direct to the Minister under the Careerstart Program. I wonder if she could indicate, when and to whom were generally the application forms sent? HON. M. DOLIN: I am not sure how far the members intend to go with this questioning. I would like to point out to them that if we get into actual specifics that I will have to refer them to Appropriation 29 as I have do ne before.

But what I will say, is that the dissemenation of information has been widespread, although a general mailing, such as took place last year, did not take place this year. All those who participated in the program before received information this year, and there was a mail drop or a mail walk, or whatever you call that, done throughout rural Manitoba to farms and busi nesses. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The reason I raise this question is that it creates some difficulty for me in the rural area because, for example, certain individuals and certain businesses, certain organizations received the forms; other have not.

I have a series of questions related to this, for example, which papers carrie d the advertisement? Was it only the city papers or was it covered in the rural papers? HON. M. DOLIN: One of the reasons for distributing information very quickly to both Caucus offices, to all ML As, was to get the information out to constituents all across Manitoba as fast as possible. I certainly know that a number of ML As availed thems elves of this opportunity and took it around or saw that it got out to people that they felt would be interested or, in fact, to every business and/or farm in their constituencies. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: The reason I raised this is that, specifically what the Min ister is indicating, the difficulty I have with the large geographic rural area is that some of the busi nesses, some of the nonprofit organizations and some of the muni cipalities have received the forms and others have not. In fact, some of the forms have just arrived within the last four or five days that people received the application forms and with the deadline being April 14, and now the Minister indicated the other day that the deadline is April 22, these people again don't know that.

They don't have that information and it is creating many problems. I think it is discriminating against many of the rural people who would like to take advantage of this program. For example, muni cipalities, some of them meet only once a month. They have received the information; by the time they meet, the deadline is past. The Minister indicates, well, we shouldn't ask too many specifics on this item here, but by the time we have a chance to discuss the Careerstart Program in detail when the time comes, by that time the deadlines are past and we're talking about a vacuum; that's too late.

I have a grave concern that the people in rural Manitoba are bei ng discrimina ted against. First ly, because the advert ising did not hit them properly; their getting the forms extremely late in many cases, and in many cases they haven't received the forms at all. The people that would like to take advantage of the program, who would be in a position to hire youth and there's much youth unemp loyed, the job opportunities in rural areas are much more limited than they are in the city.

So, many of these kids that are coming out of the rural high schools are the ones that are going to be in great difficulty in terms of being able to get an emp loyer to hire them. I'd like to raise a question and delve into it a little further; whether it's possible to get an extension; whether this Minister can assure us that there's going to be a further extention so that the people in the rural area can also take advantage of this program, not just the city people. HON. M. DOLIN: One of the things that the Member for St.

Norbert pointed out at great length was all of the places where the name of the department, the phone num ber, and so on, appears. That's exactly why; so tha t numb er is wid espread. it's been in all the advert isements. All anybody has to do is pick up the phone and call; all you have to tell anyone is that they can pick up the phone and call. 1565 I would suggest that staff is here after we complete this session of the Estimates. If you want any further informat ion, they'd be happy to ;�ive it to you, or you could give them the names of the interested parties that you're talking about.

The unemployment situation, as you I'm sur e are aware, ha s pockets of

Monday, 11 April, 1983 unemployment to a greater degree. I don't believe that people in rural Manitoba have been overlooked in the advertisement for this particular program. The phone number, as I indicated, is everywhere. It's on every piece of information. The staff is here to answer any questions and every MLA was provided with complete information on the program some time ago. MR. A. DRIEDGER: That still isn't quite adequate in my opinion as to how this program has been handled initially because of the short time frame involved. I represent 30-some small communities.

Many of these people don't have access to this kind of information the way it related out here in the city. They don't have the ... all of them. There's limitations; many of the farm people are busy all the time. They don't run down to the Ag. Rep. Office, or whatever the case may be, to see whether there's information available on this thing. I feel that a different approach should have been made in terms of presenting this program, because I feel very strongly it's a discrimination against rural members or rural areas in terms of being able to take advantage of this program.

I was one of the MLAs that went and asked for a bunch of these application forms; I've tried to distribute them. I've been phoning and telling people about it, but when you represent 17 ,000 people spread over a big geographic area, it's very difficult to get the information to all the people. I feel very strongly that a different attitude or a different method of distribution on this program should have taken place, th at my peo ple cannot take full of advantage of this program. HON. M.

DOLIN: I would like to point out to the member that 64,000 leaflets were dropped through a mail-drop to businesses and farms in Manitoba. That's very widespread distribution. The brochure that was dropped has the address and the phone number of all the various offices throughout Manitoba that the people can contact if they wish to participate in the program. There was very widespread distribution. We certainly learned from our experience and the staff has developed very effective ways of getting the message out.

If the calls coming in on this program are any indication, we have in fact let people know more about this program than almost any other program that we have instituted, so I would suggest that the information has been given widespread distribution. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A question out to the Minister then.

Because of the time frame involved, which is relatively limited, and the fact that many people do not know it has been extended by a week, is there any possibility that there could be a further extension of this program so people that are farther removed from the action will have an opportunity to get into the program? HON. M. DOLIN: With any program, if we've got a good program going that people seem to respond well to, consideration is always given to reinstituting that program or continuing the program.

To say now tnat we are going to extend the deadline again and again and again would be to defeat the intent of the program, which is to put young people to work in May, not in July or August, but to put them to work for the summer months that they're off. Certainly, the take-up on this program is going to exceed our initial estimates and that take-up will be in place by the 22nd of April, I'm certain.

If the program appears to be so popular that the people of Manitoba are demanding that we continue it, if it reaches that height of popularity, then certainly the Jobs Fund Commit tee would look at what we are doing righ t and make sure th at we continue it throughout our attack on unemployment. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the Minister, I hope the fact that there is relatively good response to it is not going to take and set a deadline or limit the opportunity for young people to get to work.

Where the Minister indicates that she would like people to be employed in May already, I can indicate that there's many of our high school students in the rural area who do not get out of school till the latter part of June possibly. This is where the difficulty comes in by the employer. If he wants to hire some of the high school students that are in school and will be in school until graduation or after graduation, these are the kids that will not be able to pick up jobs because of the limitation that has taken place. HON. M. DOLIN: This is taken into consideration when the program is administered.

Employers can indicate that they wish to hire high school students, they wish to start them when school is over. High school students indicate that they want work for just those two months that they are off school. That is how in the past we've come up with an average of nine weeks employment. It's because we have both high school and university students, not to mention all of those young people this year that are not in fact in school, but are out of school and unemployed. So, certainly, our average job length will change this year, but in the past it has been approximately nine weeks.

Those young people can apply and they simply wait until they have finished.their year of high school and then their job starts. That's why the difference in, I should say, minimum and maximum number of hours of work. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Maybe just so I'd interpret the remarks of the Minister correctly, was there some indication that if the program is successful, there is a possibility of the deadline being extended, or did I misinterpret those remarks? HON. M. DOLIN: I have said that nothing is definite, all right.

If the program, as I said, is so popular that th ere is a demand th roug hout Manitoba for its continuance, then we would, of course, look at that. But when you have a program that is taking place during a specific period of time; in other words, the student part of that population of young people, then you're dealing with a certain length of time and they wish to go back to school.

The fact that we're dealing with young people who are unemployed and who are, in fact, not in school may cause us to look at this program, see what is very successful about it, and either institute another program, a similar one, or build in the design 1566

Monday, 11 April, 1983 to some of our other employment programs. I don't think it would be fair to say that anything is over with, finished, and we're all done; not when we still have people out of work, we would never say that, we will never say that. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: I'm encouraged by the remarks from the Min ister that nothing is definite because then I could pos sibly assume that, because nothing is definite, that the deadline may be not necessarily as definite, and that if people who have not been aware of this program and, even after the deadline, they would possibly have an opportun ity to apply for the program and still be able to qualify. HON. M.

DOLIN: I would like to point out one incident that we ran into and I would certainly suggest that the member not take back to his constituency suggestions that people wait around until their next municipal meeting or whene ver they feel like talking about th is; this was under another emplo yment program.

The information was received in November but nobody felt like having a meeting until February because of the Christmas holidays and then because a lot of people were gone in January in this particular municip ality, so they didn't get around to talking about the Manitoba Employment Action Program until Febru ary. lt was a little late then to send in their application and the fact that they were anno yed that they didn't qualify under the program just was too bad because we simply had a deadline that was much much earlier than that, but they didn't choose to make a decision about whether they were going to participate until three months after the program deadline occurred.

I would certainly not want the mem ber to go back to his constituency and say the Minister is very flexible on deadlines and perhaps you can wait around until May or June to get into this program; that's not going to happen. MR. G. FILMON: I'm glad to have had the reassurance from the Mini ster that her department had direct mailed the applications and the information, the folders on this directly to 60,000 different busi nesses, I think she said, or organizations in the province.

That allayed some of my concerns when she said that one of the prime reasons of her department sending a copy of the application form and the folder to each of us, as Members of the Legislature, was so that she would be assured that every employer, farm or busi ness in the province would then be aware of it. 1t was going to remind her, as I'm sure she knows, that we're somewhat lim ited in our ability to contact all the people in our constituencies about things like that and, although Tuxedo doesn't have too many farms and perhaps there are few enough busi ness enterpris es that I could have, over the cou rse of the last couple of weeks, taken one around to every door, it might have been difficult still.

So, I'm glad that her department has direct mailed to th ese people as well as relying on us in our dissemination of information. The program itself, Mr. Chairman, the Mi nister has spoken a num ber of times about the people of Manitoba responding to it in great num bers and I would hope that she is not assuming that this is a reflection on the program or the fact that the program has been much better designed this year than in the past and, therefore, it has all these people responding.

The fact of the matter is that programs in the past, ones that her predecessor and other members of her caucus criticized, achieved great num bers. Her colleagues seem to think that it didn't have anything to do with the program that it, perhaps, was a giveaway and things of this nature. I don't bring any of these criticisms, necessarily, to this program because I think she has capable people in her department who were able to design good programs in the past and I assume will continue to be able to design good programs at the present time, given the constraints that they have with respect to government policy.

The difficulty is, Mr. Chairman, that we have record high unemplo yment levels in youth under 25 at the present time and that, in itself, will demand that, regardless of what the program is, regardless of what its criteria, the applications are going to be very high and there will be many people interested in this sort of program and I'm sure, as well, that with difficult economic times that busi nesses will be looking for opportunities to get government assistance in order to get things done in their enterprises.

This program, obvious ly, will appeal for both reasons because of the difficult economic times busin esses are facing and the record numb ers of people who are looking for summer employment. So, I would hope that the criteria, as they are laid out and as the Min ister has indicated to us, are broader than they were in the past year and I'm glad to hear that they include small enterprises that weren't included in the past. I'm glad to hear that they've overcome some of the hangups they had about the design of previous programs that did attract substantial interest.

The other area that her predecessor seemed to dwell on last year in Estima tes, in zeroing in on career employment opportunities for young people, was the need for a su bst antial career component, sort of contributing toward ones future career if one was a university student or a post-secondary student of any sort, that these programs would have a significant element of career orientation and not just a job, as he said.

Is this part of the intention here since we're naming it Careerstart, firstly; and secondly, it's a carry-over of the same government so I assume that it's a similar policy orientation; is there a need to have an element of career orientation that would meet with the approval of the government as it relates to the training that the se people are taking in post-secondary institutions? HON. M. DOLIN: There certainly is an element of training involved in this program to give young people experience and job training in an area that they feel they w ould like to pursue.

For university students we are trying to match them to jobs in the area in which they are studying so that there is a direct correlation. For unemployed youth we are attempting to match them with jobs they wish to become involved in and also are asking employers to involve skill training in that job. MR. G. FILMON: How does the Min ister feel that clearing up backlogged chores and paperwork is in accordance with people's career goals? 1567

Monday, 11 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: Tha t certai nly depends on the paperwork involved. If it's record keeping that certainly is a skill in itself; if it is the setting up of an office, or the organization of an office, that is a skill that is needed on the job as well. MR. G. FILMON: How about filing and general labouring chores; how does that fit in? HON. M. DOLIN: One of the single largest groups of entry level jobs is in the area of office assistance and that, particularly, is in the area of filing. I don't know what the member did for the very first job he had. I filed, and it was in a hardware store. MR.

G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I shovelled asphalt, as a matter of fact, on a patching crew for the city, not that that's relevant to the topic, but I just wanted to trade a little information with the Mi nister. - (I nterjection) - The Memb er for Thompson says I went from shovelling one thing to another, and I can't help that the members on the other side insist on providing me with this additional material that I have to shovel. Mr. Chairman, the other area that I am concerned about is just the overall criteria specifications and how they compare to the programs that we have had in the past.

Is the Minister flexible on the criteria as well as other aspects of the program that she has layed out? HON. M. DOLIN: I would say, in response to that, that job training in a skilled work force are goals no matter what kinds of jobs we're assisting people in creating and assisting people in obtaining. A skilled work force is one of the most important things that Manitoba has to offer. We think it's especially important that young people have the opportunity to develop skills in a particular area. They may choose to develop them in an area and then discover that they don't care for that area as well.

That is a decision then that is based on experience, not on imagination. One of the important activities of the group that is monitoring all of the activities within the Jobs Fund is to look at programs and to see where the y are particularly successful. Before we made any changes in the criteria, we would want to experience this program as it has been changed and determine whether it was effective, whether young people gained from it, whether employers were happy with it. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Ch airman, is the Mi nister concerned that the criteria as they now apply, especially to private business organizations, will simply result in the private business organization getting work done that they would probably ordinarily have done in any case and with the government subsidy now? HON. M. DOLIN: What the member describes is the reason for the clause regarding additionality. MR. G. FILMON: Did the previous program in the last year of our administration, I guess two years ago, have that same type of requirement or restriction? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it did. MR. G.

FILMON: How will the Minister satisfy the concerns that the Minister of Finance keeps repeating that the auditor had, saying that there was no way of proving that aspect of it? HON. M. DOLIN: There is a different kind of evaluation in place now. It's a direct contact with the employer. The contact with the employer is in person. The auditor was very satisfied last year with that change in the program. MR. G. FILMON: What form does the contact take? HON. M. DOLIN: There is a survey that is used by staff. They go out and contact employers personally with the survey in hand. MR. G.

FILMON: So they are now getting something verbally that they used to get in writing in the form of a signature on an application? HON. M. DOLIN: Certainly, that verification is given in writing too; it's part of the application form. What the member is perhaps referring to is that there used to be a check at the end of the program. This monitoring is now done throughout the program. MR. G. FILMON: How many times would this sort of monitoring take place during the course of a summer job? HON. M. DOLIN: A minimum of once per employer plus the evaluation at the end. MR. G.

FILMON: This has now improved the assurance to the point that the auditor thinks it's fine? HON. M. DOLIN: The auditor approved of the program in its changed form for a couple of reasons; partly because the evaluation was changed; but also because the stated goals of the program were changed. So employers knew right from the beginning what was expected of them and so did students know what would be expected of them. The young people knew what they were going to get in this program and, therefore, expected it.

I might also point out that where there is reason to have some concern about the program when it is being monitored, certainly more than one visit would be made during the course of that employer's involvement in the program. The one visit is automatic, one visit during the cou rse of the program, staff would much more closely monitor any situation that they then felt there might be a problem with. The auditor, yes, is quite content with this set- up, but it's for the stated goals as well as the change in evaluation. MFI. G.

FILMON: Did the program last year, which achieved the approval of the auditor, have as one of its goals and one of their criteria under which businesses could apply, clearing up backlog chores and paperwork? HON. M. DOLIN: If that's additional work to be done that would not be done otherwise, then of course it would qualify under the program. The point is that you 1568

Monday, 11 April, 1983 match with that a young person whose intent or desire is to go into office work, if it's an office that you're talking about. If it's something related to some other occupation, then a young person that wishes some experience in business in that area would be targeted for employment to that particular job. That's one of the reasons why we do maintain some control through hiring agencies of how young people are matched with employers. Emp loyers can't simply go out and hire wh omever the y wish with out going through the employment agencies. MR. G.

FILMON: Just by implication, could the Minister assume that a backlog chore or paperwork is new work, is new initiative? HON. M. DOLIN: If the work that the member is describing and without his being very specific about it, it's very difficult to determine exactly what he's talking about; if that work is not being done by existing employees and there is a need for the work to be done, then it makes sense to hire additional people to do it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister confirm there was no deadline date under the program last year? HON. M.

DOLIN: There wasn't a deadline date last year, but staff found it very difficult to deal with the incoming applications and it was difficult for them to make a rational assessment of the quality of the projects being suggested when they didn't have them all in front of them. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, how many people administer this program compared to the program two years ago? HON. M. DOLIN: How do I compare it? MR. G. MERCIER: How many people are involved in administering this program compared with the program two years ago? HON. M.

DOLIN: The same number of people are in the department that work with this program, but we have decentralized a lot of the operation to our regional offices. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, how are they going to, with the same number of people, do all of this extra work by going out and speak ing to the various employers, etc.? HON. M.

DOLIN: That's one of the reasons for having the regional people involved; not only does that give you another outlet or outreach, but you have those people right out there in the field and you have them much more able to reach the people that need to be talked to and who need to receive the information. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to talk about the adequacy of the program. We had a program two years ago, when the unemployment rate was much lower, and 5,000 jobs for young people were obtained through that program.

Last year, at this same time, the unem ployment rate among young people was 14 percent and they had a program which provided, in the Mi nister's Annual Report, some 4,000 jobs. She has said that the same amount of money is being appropriated for the program this year so I would assume that it will create the same number of jobs, 4,000. The latest unemployment statistics indicate that the unem ployment rate among young people is 18 .3 percent, com pared to 14 percent at the same time last year.

Students have indicated, and the president, for example, of the University of Manitoba Students Union, that the unemployment problem among students will be much more serious than it was last year because of the declining economy. Statistics Canada, at that time, a few weeks ago, indicated there were 20,000 young people among the 54,000 jobless in Manitoba. The STEP Program has not been expanded. Certainly under this government job creation in the private sector has reduced rather than expanded. The government has imposed a payroll tax which affects all employment, as well as unemployment among young people.

In view of all of these factors, Mr. Chairman, does the Minister not consider that this program, to be the same as last year, is inadequate? HON. M. DOLIN: First of all, Mr. Chairman, the 5,000 jobs created number tha t the member is tossing out so lightly, was exactly the reason why the Auditor objected to the program in the form that it formerly had; that was an estimate, at best.

Second ly, and most importantly, the whole idea behind the Jobs Fund is that we will be able to monitor and then create new programs that meet the needs of young people, of older people - certainly young people aren't the only group that is unemployed.

Their unemployment rate is high, it's particularly high right now but this program, which the members insist on speaking about in isolation, is only one small part of the whole, one small part of the whole, and it must be seen as a part of that totality, because that entire Jobs Fund Program, the whole thing, will impact on unemployment to a very great degree, and this is just a component of that $200 million.

The appropriate time, as I have said repeatedly, to discuss this in totality and to see whether the parts actually do make up the whole, to see whether there is an area that is left uncovered, to see whether there is a direction that the opposition members would like to suggest we take, the time to discuss that is when all of the programs can be spread out before you, when you can see whether there is enough of an impact on rural employment, on Northern employment, on urban unemployment which, of course, is the highest of all, and we can look at the whole picture.

To discuss this program and its adequacy, or inadequacy, in isolation is simply not an accurate way to look at it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we are talking about Employment Development and Youth Services and the administration of that Branch; we're talking about young people. I appreciate, Mr. Chairrran, and the Minister appears to take some pride in, and I welcome the point for reduction in unemployment overall in Manitoba in March of 1983, compared to February of 1983, but the 1569

Monday, 11 April, 1983 actual - not seasonally adjusted - rate of overall unemployment in Manitoba for March of 1983 is 10 .8 percent compared to 8.4 percent last year. So that overall situation doesn't help this youth component. We're talking about the Careerstart Program, which the Minister said is spending the same amount of money and I assume, and I think quite properly, that it will not create any more jobs than was created last year, those being 4,0000; and I'm pointing out to her that the unemployment rate among young people in Manitoba for March 1983 is 18 .3 percent, compared to 14 percent last year.

That's an increase of 5.3 percent in this category, and we have before us a program that will not expand in any way upon the program last year, and I'm referring to the comments that have been made by some student leaders about the crisis in unemployment among young people in Manitoba. I'm suggesting to her really that this program is not adequate. Under this government jobs are not being created in the private sector with the tax regime that this government has imposed in their anti-p rivate sector attitude, and we are facing a situation in which young people are losing hope in our society.

I'm suggesting to her that with all of these facts before her, and this being the middle of the month of April, and students from university will all be on the job market in a few weeks, and many are probably on the job market right now. I'm saying to her that the program that she has introduced is not adequate to meet the need among young people this year in the Province of Manitoba. I'm suggesting to her that she should not be waiting to monitor the situation in May, June, July and August.

I'm suggesting to her that she should be developing a program immediately to deal with this crisis in unemployment that she must know is going to occur this summer starting May 1s t. Will she immediately develop a program to expand upon the program that she has announced so far? HON. M.

DOLIN: Well, I find it interesting that the member - and I don't if his colleagues perhaps help me with this, but he doesn't seem to hear me when I say repeatedly, I've said all last week, and I will start again this week saying - that the amount allocated initially to this program by the Jobs Fund was based on past experience, and that should the need be there; should there be greater takeup on the part of the private sector as he wishes there to be, then certainly the Jobs Fund will look at allocating more. So, it is not the same as last year. It is the same base for starters as last year.

I certainly hope he's right and that the private sector picks up on this tremendously and creates all kinds of work for young people. I have to note that in other provinces where free enterprise is their foundation, the unem ployment rates are hi gher than th ey are in Manitoba. I'll leave that with the member. But certainly, this is not a final figure. If that's all the takeup we get from the private sector, then we will create other programs that reach out in other ways. If they do wish to participate more and they qualify under the program, then we will look at allocating more monies to this program.

Also, the niember consistently speaks as if this is the only program, the only opportunity for youth in this entire province. I would certainly like him to check on programs such as the Manitoba Employment Action Program; the Water and Sewer Repair Programs; the construction programs; the health programs; the capital works programs; the building programs under Government Services; all kinds of other programs. He will find a lot of young people who are 24 years of age and younger. There's no restriction in those other programs that says if you're under 24, don't come. They certainly can work there too.

We have targeted some of our programs - not only this one, I might point out; the members haven't chosen to question us on the others - (Interjection) - - but, we have not targeted the wide group of unemployed with this particular program. We have other programs that target the entire spectrum of the unemployed, young and old, and you'll find a lot of young people working within them. So, the attack on unemployment for youth should never be thought of that this is the only program that focuses on that as the target. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, earlier on in the Estimates, the Minister indicated her Research and Planning Department predicted unemp loyment to maintain at 10.3 percent through 1983. Can she indicate what she anticipates the unemployment rate to be among young people during the summer months? Su rely, that would be part of that prediction. HON. M. DOLIN: What I can say to the member is that we have been pleasantly surprised by the declining unempl oyment rate in gene ral.

Ther e are some interesting trends taking place within our employment figures, within the labour force figures, notably those in the area of part time versus full time work, and in the men versus women in the work force; the increase in number of people within the work force and so on. All of these trends are being monitored. This is a time in our history whenithings are changing very fast. We are right in the middle of a drastic change in our work force; in what we call work; in what that work force is involved in and so on; the skill needs; the training needs; the changing employment situation.

We are monitoring it. We are pleased to see that there are people coming into the work force who are finding jobs. We intend to assist them in every possible way, but to make a prediction, that is really just another way of asking me how many people we think that this program is going to employ; is leading us, I think, down a different path. I would not care to get into that kind of hypothesizing. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has already indicated and predicted on the basis of the information from her staff that the Research and Planning Branch estimates unemployment to maintain at 10.3 percent throughout 1983. Su rely, as part of th ose predictions in researc h, the y would have estimated the unemployment rate among young people. Could we have that figure? HON. M. DOLIN: The Conference Board of Canada figures are the ones that I quoted to the member, I think, on the first night of Estimates when he asked 1570

Monday, 11 April, 1983 that question. That is the prediction and it's a Canadian prediction and it's for Manitoba in particular, but they do this for the other provinces as well. So that's their prediction. Translating that into what our research staff thinks might happen, and then within that figure, how many will be 16 to 24 or 15 to 24; how many will be students; how many will be young people unemployed, would certainly be a lengthy operation and I think, we would have difficulty finding a firm foundation for those figures. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Minister saying then she doesn't have that figure for young people; a separate estimate? HON. M. DOLIN: If the member is asking me for a separate estimate of the potential number of young people unemployed, who knows when? Summer? Does that mean July; does that mean August; does that mean June; does that mean May when university students are out? I don't know. That's exactly what I'm trying to point out to the member. You'd have to be very specific, as statistics can be used, as the member well knows, to enhance any particular position, including ·o pposite positions depending on how you use them.

So, if the member wishes to be extremely specific with his question, I will refer it to the Research Branch and see if they can come up with an extremely specific hypothetical prediction. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has already ind icated a figure of 10. 3 overall unemployment in Manitoba through 1983. If she has a figure for young people between the ages of 15 to 24 up to the middle of Septem ber, perhaps a figure from there on till the end of the year, I would like to know what it is. HON. M. DOLIN: I can give the member the Conference Board of Canada predictions, if that's what he wishes?

We're right on with those at 18 percent for this quarter. They certainly don't go by months. MR. G. MERCIER: Do they make a prediction then also for the next two or thr ee quarters? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, they indicate a 2 percent decline at least. MR. G. MERCIER: To 16 percent? HON. M. DOLIN: Approximately, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: And then the following quarters? HON. M. DOLIN: Both quarters. What they say is 16.5 for the third quarter and 16 percent for the final quarter.

Remember those are our Conference Board of Canada predictions, and I am certainly not underestimating their importance, but they are predictions by a group that is looking at all of Canada. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister then feel that the Careerstart Program is an adequate program combined with all of the other programs if you like, adequate programs to reduce that rate of unemployment among young people to a much more reasonable figure? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, I am very proud of this program, and I think it is a very good program. MR. G. MERCIER: I am not sure what that answer was, Mr. Chairman.

Is she satisfied then that there will be a very significant reduction in unemployment among young people as a result of the Careerstart Program and all of the other programs she's mentioned? HON. M. DOLIN: As I said before, a Careerstart Program is a part of a much larger thrust and attack on unemployment. As a start, I think that it's a very good start. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, what is the objective then of the Minister? Is it to reduce unemployment among young people to 14 percent, 12 percent, 10 percent, 8 percent? HON. M.

DOLIN: My goal is I'm sure the goal of many people, that there be jobs for anyone who wishes to work. That, of course, is the ultimate goal and that is what we would work for. I would not be satisfied if there was an unemployment rate of 14 percent and some of those people wanted to work. I would seek to create or assist others in creating employment for them. I believe that is my role and that is something that I believe personally that as long as there are people who wish to work, we have a job to do to create employment for them. There may be a very different way of working in the very near future.

I am not sure what that will be, but we are certainly watching it carefu lly and keeping in step with it. I believe that this particular program is a part of that entire thrust. 1571 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we would all share in that objective. What is she going to accomplish this year though? What can the young people of Manitoba be assured of? What will be the rate of unemployment among young people in this province after all of the government programs? HON. M. DOLIN: According to the Director of our Research Branch, we have frequently been under the predictions, the unemployment predictions.

We would hope that not only would we continue to be under those predictions, but we would be well under them. One must consider, of course, that there are constantly more people coming into the workforce, so while we have an inc reasi ng wo rkforce, if we have a declining unemployment rate, then certainly we are having an impact on this problem. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I want to say to the Minister that she would be wise to heed the advice from members of the opposition. We have attempted, last year and this year, to assist the Ministers of Labour in the development of these programs.

Last year, I think at our suggestion, the Minister of Labour expanded the criteria for the program and the definition of small business. I think by virtue of that, there was a much

Monday, 11 April, 1983 greater number of job opportunities available to young people. We are concerned about the deadline that she has imposed under the program this year when last year there was no program whatsoever or no deadline whatsoever. Sure, it may have caused a few problems among the administration, but at least the program was able to accommodate some 4,000 jobs for young people. This year she's imposed a deadline which I am frankly not sure is going to be that helpful. I think she's going to certainly find herself in a position of having to extend it further and it should be.

We would say extended further to give employers an opportunity to develop these jobs for young people, and that doesn't mean that jobs for young people should stop in the meanwhile until the deadline is reached. That's a tact that she seems to be taking in a couple of answers here and in the Legislature. Just because the deadline is exten ded, doesn 't mean tha t appl ications by employers and municipalities can't be approved as they come in and the job referrals may.

But I want to say to the Minister that with the extremely large increase in unemployment that has taken place under this government that there is a crisis of unemployment among young people in Manitoba this summer; and that she better prepare now to deal with that because she is just a few weeks away from the date when these large numbers of students are going to be on the job market.

If she waits a month or two months to assess, to monitor , etc., she's simply going to find out what we're telling her now that the program is going to have to be expanded if she really wants to assist all of the young people that are going to be looking for jobs. That's something that she better have her department consider right now. Under the regulations, Mr. Chairman, I want to ask her a question. What if there is a situation where an employer, the regulations provide that an approved employer will interview only those candidates referred by the office and the job centr es or de legated authorities?

What if there are and I imagine there will be probably be quite a few of these where employers had approved projects last year, and maybe even the year before, and they had hired students. The students are still going through school and the employer has developed a good working relationship with the student. Rather than go through this step of having to interview candidates that are referred, if the student still doesn't have a job and the employer has another approved project, why couldn't the employer simply contact the student he's had in previous years? Maybe if it is in the regulations, I apologize. HON. M.

DOLIN: I see the member has his application form there or the information form. On Page 4 at the top, it says if one of the referred/approved candidates is hired. Now, "referred" is obvious, the meaning of that; "approved" is an indication of just what you were talking about. The employer would contact the office indicating who this student is that they wish to hire, and that contact would be made for ttiem. The employer can do that, so that there can be continuity if they wish if they have a student who worked with them before. MR. G. MERCIER: There is a mechanism there? HON. M.

DOLIN: Yes, there is and that's explained to employers. MR. CH AIRMAN: 3. (a)(2)(a) - the Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, there's been a fair amount of discussion in regard to the problem of unemployment amongst youth and certainly I don't think any Member of this Legislature questions the difficult situation that people are facing. Of course, it's a difficult situation for anybody who's unemployed. I think everybody accepts that.

In terms of the situation amongst youth, however, I think every statistical analysis shows that that's the -area where there is the largest amount of unemployment. However, statistics are pretty cold-blooded, Mr. Chairman, I think the most i1nportant aspect of it though is the human side. I know from personal experience in talking to many young people who are looking for summer employment how difficult a situation they are faced with. If it's 4:30, I'll continue my remarks later. MR. CHAIR MAN: The hour being 4:30, we are interrupting the proceedings of this comm ittee for Private Members' Hour.

We will resume at 8:00 o'clock. SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health, Item 4.( dX1) Continuing Care Services: Salaries. The Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can review for the committee the situation in respect to continuing care at the present time insofar as the home care directorate and home care policy and approach is concerned?

Whether there have been any changes in the home care administration or home care office, leadership of the home care component or approach to home care, is the general overall question that I would like to address in discussing this particular appropriation with the Minister.

There have been some complaints that have reached me, reached colleagues of mine, and although I have no demonstrable proof of it, I venture to suggest that a great many members of this House have perhaps been approached in past months with individual queries or complaints from their constituents having to do with the maintenance of home care services at the quality level to which we have become accustomed and that which they had been long established.

Ther e are ind ications, hence, sugges tions of reductions in the home care field, of cutbacks in home care services, of reassessments, readjustments and reevaluations of the criteria for home care, and I would like to begin looking at this appropriation with a question in that vein to the Minister as to whether he and his staff, in sitting down and developing their Estimates and their Budget for 1983-84 and looking at home care generally, have made any fundamental or basic changes in administration policy, philosophy, approach, criteria for supply of home care, or any other aspect of the operation. 1572

Monday, 11 April, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I can say quite categorically that there has been no cutback in home care. In fact, that is the place in the item in my Estimates under the Department of Health that has increased the most There will be at least $2 million more that I'm asking for. There has been no change in policies. There is a study going on. There is a committee that was set up that is looking at the possibility of seeing how the existing alternative prog rams for the Home Care Programs are, to study the quality and so on.

There has been a Manitoba-Canada Home Care Study and we're lookin g at tha t now, but I can say quite categorically that there is no cutback at all; it's quite the opposite. I'm very proud of our Home Care Program. I still think that we have the best one in Canada, but the more you do the more the people out there feel that you should do. I think that has to be addressed very clearly and very honestly. I think there are some people out there - I don't think - I know - that are demanding a little more.

There are people now who feel that home care should not only provide the service in the home but it should accompany these people anywhere they go, and there should be one-on-one and there should be things ready for emergency. That's not what home care is all about. The policies for home care are the same as when my honourable friend was the Minister. I think there's been very little change in that; that is, the maximum that you will allow, unless there is a special case, and I' ll come back to that, is you will not spend more money on home care than it would cost to keep these people in an institution.

We're doing everything possible to keep people out of personal care homes, out of institutions, but there are certain areas where that is the only way to deal with it. There is no way that we intend to have the cost to be more costly than keeping people in a personal care. That is not what home care is all about. Now, that will happen in an emergency if somebody is paneled and it's quite obvious that these people should be immediately in a hospital or in a personal care bed and that is not possible for a short time, then we're not going to worry

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-43a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 43a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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