Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, DECEMBER 9, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 85

December 9. 197 4 The llouse met at 3:nn P. H. Mr. SpeRker in the Cl1air. Taoe 1Q71J Ml:._ SPEAY..ER (STAGG): Order, please! rn-1 REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COHMITTEES: HO~~'---T-=. ;JQYLE (MINISTER OF REHABILITATION AND RECREATION): Mr. Speaker. I would like to table the regulations of the Private Romes for Special Care Allowances Amendment Regulations, 1974. NOTICES OF MOTION: !!!JN. J'_:A.-.. J!ICK1'W-l (MINISTER OF JUSTICE) : Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the honourahle the Minister of Tourism I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leav<' to introduce a bill, "An To Amend The Historic Objects, Sites And Records Act, 1973. ' ft~NSWERS TO QUF.STIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN r.IVEN: um:. .)~. A. T . ROWE (MINISTER OF HEAL TH) : llr. Speaker, in response to the question nosed last we~k regarding mumps and the situation with mumps vaccine. The situation is that during 1974 mumps has been prevalent and has been reported in many parts of Newfoundland among the children of school age.

Although this disease is usually mild and complications rare, cases of the disease may require the time and attention of doctors and nurses and children lose time from school and the parents have the problem of caring for the sick child. In the past two to three years, a safe and effective vaccine against mumps has been developed. This vaccine may be given to children at twelve monthR of age combined with the vaccine against measles and rubella as a three in one shot.

In 1975 the nepartment of Health because these cases of mumps require the time and attention of doctors and nurses ancl hecause children may lose time from school, we will commence in the department to offer this three in one shot against measles, mumps and rubella to children as they reach twelve months of age. The cost of this will he approximately five dollars per dose. I would say that no other Canadian province is yet giving this vaccine as a part of their i~munization prop.ramme. The addition of mumps vaccine to the provincial immunization 71d.:;

December 9 , 1974 Tape 1970 IB-2 schE'dule means that as children grow up they will receive protection against seven different diseases, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, polio~yelitis, measles, mumps and rubella. I=unization against infectious diseases is fully available throughout the province at the baby clinics organized by the department and from the family doctors. That sums up the situation with regard to the present situation, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS: x1r. Speaker, I wonder if I could put a question to the hononrable the Premier. Would the Premier care to indicate to the Hous(, whether (

a) the government has any customers for any power that may be recovered from the Upper Churchill or; (

b) does the government ltave any customers for any power that may be developed on the Lower Churchill? HON. F. D. !!OORF.S (PRO:IER) : The answer, I-Ir. Speaker, is yes we have a great many customers for the power once we eventually get it to the province. !'fR. NEARY:_ Well , M:r. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the Premier care to indicate to the House who these prospective customers arc? MR. 'to0TI.ES: Yes. t•lr. Speaker. The first and forernos t are the 500,000 people who live in this province who will benefit by ge.tting more cheaper power. MR...:..}~E:.ARV: A supplementary question , Sir.

Would the Premier indicate to the House if there is a shortage of power on the Island of Newfoundland at the moment? UR_. __ ~_00RES :_ The answer is that there will be if Ottawa does not soon make up its mind, )lr. Speaker, yes. ~R ~ ~ :~Yi _ Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I wonder would the Premier indicate to the House whether 7780

D<'<"('mh<'r Q 1"7-',. T11rr I Q7t llll - I or not there js any foundation to the reports over the last forty-eight hours that Ottawa will help the Province to finance a transmission line, pay half the cost of a transmission line to recover power from the Upper Churchill rather than p,o ahead with the development of the Lower Churchill. Apparently the cost has escalated beyond all control. PREMIER MOORES: Mr . Speaker, the answer to that is no, the government have not had any communique from Ottawa in that regard. I heard the same spec kle of a story as the member from Bell Island.

I am sure, Sir, that the representative of Newfoundland in the Federal Cabinet would not allow that to happen because the power being brought to the Province, all that power to be used in Labrador and for the Province is far too important f or the Federal Government to have made such a decision. I am sure that is not the case. I am sure that Mr • .Jameison would not allow it to happen and, Sir, we would do everything in our power to make sure it does not. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary: Is it a fact that because the government have dragged its seat over the last couple of years and did not call tenders - Order, order , order, please! MR. NEARY: Did not call tenders to award contracts for the development of the Lower Churchill two years 11p;o that the cost has now escalated beyond control an<l that it would not be considered economically feasible to develon the Lower Churchill? PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, when the feasibility study was bein g done for the Lower Churc~ill which took one year, this government insti~ated it, tried t~ get sOJTte power hack as opposed to giving it away which happened nreviously in this Province. The fact is that it took tha t long to get the feasibility studv done. From that time the Federal Government have insisted upon reviewing it, quite rightly. The delay over the last six months has been waiting for a reply from the Federal Government. I can understand why there was a delay but the time has come for them to act now. The fact is, Mr.

Speaker, that inflation as everybody knows, has affected every pro1ect of every kind but still the development of Gull Island , 778'/

Pecel'lhcr q 1974 . Tnne 1971 RH - 2 the development of power in Labrador for the servicinv of all our Province is still the ~est and ~ost efficient Rnd chenrest manner of Runrlying power for both our domestic consumers and for industrial development potential in this Province. For the honourable member to say, X:.

Speaker, that this Province has waited for two and a half years to call contracts on the Lower Churchill, when he sat in the Govern!'lent tbat gave away the power on the l!pper Churchill, I think nnlv n·flects his lack of understandinp, of anything economic and that is the reason, people like himself who were in that Cabinet, the reRson this Province was in the mess it was when we came in and the renson why it is much better today, Sir. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Sneaker, 1 can understand why the Hon. the Premier is going off his head, Sir, hnt J will merely turn the other cheek to some of the remarks that he just made and ask him - PREMIER "100RES: Turn around then. "1R. NEARY: When I turn around the other cheek, the Premier, he knows what he can do with it. HR. S?EAKER (Stagg): Order, please! PREMIER '!OORES: That is rir,ht. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order, please! As the honourahle member is aware, t!lis is the question period. It is not a period for the honourable member to get up and make a speech. The statements he is making now are

preambled to nothing apparently. If he has a question I suggest he ask it. MR. !<EARY: A sur,plementary question, Sir: The Hon. the Premier indicated a few moments ago that the customers would be the 545,000 people in ~ew­ foundland. Would the Premier indicate to the House if the 545,000 people in "ewfoundland that lie is talking about can consrnne all the power that will he developed as a result of the Lower Churchill or if they can consume the 400,000 kilowatts that can be recoverable from the Upper Churchill. PRF'.MIF.R MOORES_: To p,et the honourable member for Bell Island's arithmetic straight, Nr. Speaker, it is 300,000 recall we have from the Upper Churchill 77dd

Dece,.t,er Q 1971, . Tape 1971 Rl! - 3 Some o f that has t o 1--e nserl for the industries and the l'eople .:,f Labrador, natura llv and so it should he. There ts consicl eTah 1:,, less than 100.0l)O n ep.awatts avallahle for recall, not h00,000 as he s-ays . The fact is that hy the time the i>ower could be transmitted to the !sland, yes. there wi 11 he <loll'estic us<> for all of that amount . For the total development qf r.ull 1sl:rnil it wil I take several yea rs before the domestic ui,;e woul d certainly be there for :It . many years, hut hopefully.

Sir . that wilJ he t he only wa~• that this "rovince can have a hope for inf.!ust-cial rlevel oome nt and industrial custoners will have t o be attracted for it . There mav have to be s0J11e shqrt cerm arreemenr. wi.th 'lu ebec-Hydro. There may not. The fact is that it depends entir~ly on how wany industrial developnent T"eonJE'. industries that devel of' in the Pr ovince itself and until of course we have f.i-m cotnrnitir.ent from tile federal Government of what assistance they are p,oin?. to r.ive us. until we have a fi.rm contract as to when the power is y.oinP to be available on the Island, 77 o':J

December 9, 1974 Tape 1972 IB-1 or.ly then, a£ course, can we get any concrete deals set up with any industries to be established on the island • }~:.....!ff ARY:_ Well, "r. Speaker, a supplementary oue,;tion. Would the Premier care to elaborate on any short term agreement - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, is this a clehate? :·IB_,____:~~Y: No, it is not a clebate. I am entitled to ask all the questions I warit. Just keep quiet. Take it easy. Do not be so •01ensi ti ve. '. ._ SPEAKER ( STAGG) : Order, please! l'R. _ CROSBIE: The open line show got to you this morning.

HJL_ J'I_EARY: The Premier is digging himself in deeper all the time so Jet mP continue. Hill the Premier care to elaborate on any short-term arrangement that may be made with Quebec Hydro and would the Premier indicate if there are any ne~otiations at the moment in progress with ()uebec Hydro to buy the power. MR:...J~OORE~ Mr. Speaker, the answer is that no, there are no negotiations with Quebec-Hydro to buy the power because it would be our intent to use it here. Hopefully that is the way it will be.

It is our intention, Sir, to sell Quebec-JJydro as little or none of the power but as little as possible. hopefully none so that it can all be used in this province. Certainly to get it clear in the member for Bell Island's mind, it is exactly the reverse from the Upper Churchill in that we want it all for the province as quickly as possible as opposed to shipping it all out ,1,; quickly as possible. ··-rn.. NEAl'Y: Now, Mr. Speaker, another question concerning the same matter, Sir.

Would the Premier indicate to the House what the current estimated cost of (a) ~ecovery of the surplus power from the Upper Churchill and; (

b) the cost at the moment, the estimated cost of developing the Lower Churchill? :1R ._l!_O_Q_RE~_ Mr. Speaker, I think to give an accurate answer to that we wiJl have to await the final report from Ottawa with our own people. I think it would he wrong for me to give a figure riow that could be marr-jnally out. I think there is no urgency for that question to be as keel. 77 ;;JU

December 9, l'J7t, Tape 1972 Ill-2 :- <R. lJEARY: !!r. Speaker, would the Premier undertake to get me the answer to the qucsUon including the cost of the tunnel across the Straits of Belle lsJei MR. ~!O_O_!<_ES: When the information is ava Uable, Mr. Speaker , T will most certainly get the cost . The e:J<act cost will be known particularly the tunnel for the member of Bell Island because I assume he and whoever it is who supports him on this will be bidding on the construction of it. Ile talked enough about it to bid on it. HR. NFAltY: !1r.

Soeaker, I wonder if the Premier would indicate to the llouse, Sir. if the government intends to follow a recollllllendation of the Atlantic Provinces Chamber of Commerce, namely that the tunnel that w:lll be built underneath the Straits of Belle Isle ahould also accommodate a railway facility? Could the Premier make a stater.ient on that, please? 1-'J:l. 'IOORES:_ I think it is a marvellous idea, J,lr. Speaker . I think it is a tremendous idea. I think it would be very costly. I think it is unlikely.

In the hep.inning, I think, what we are primarily interested in at this time is power lines and tunnels for that even though, J th t ,-.k, everybod y trinks it is desirable to have the other thing. I think it will be a few years after the transmission lir,e tunnel or whichever method they choose to cross the Straits with. t_!R_.___l'~F~Y: ' Ir. Speaker, the Minister of Mines and Energy made a rather peculiar statement today concerning uranium reconnaissance going on in the province. I wonder if the minister would care to elaborate on that statement, i,hat it means because a lot of people are confused?

Is it the same as the uranium enrichment plant that the former Liberal Administration proposed for Labrador? l-lON. L :J!..· BARRY (I'IINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY) : Mr. Speaker, reconnaissance comes from the Latin ·'Connaitre '-, if I recall correctly, to acquire knowledi(e, to know, Is this correct? Af: HON0URABLE MB1BER: That is right. t!R._ BARRY:_ And 'Reconnaitre", to reacquire. ~--'-- _D_09DY :_ _ All of which is wasted cov,pletely on them. l1R. BARRY: Reconnaissance, Mr. Speaker, if we trace that derivation, means to go out ancl reconnoiter, to go out and search, to go out and 7791

December 9, 1974 Tape 1972 look and, in this case, to go out and search and look for ur anium. The progr8l111De, Mr. Speaker, is a programme which , at t his stage , is a proposal whi ch appears acceptable to the province but the details of which still have to be worked out , a proposa l for a uranium reconnai ssan ce or explo rati on progr amme which will see the entire provinc~ bei n~ mapped and explored to determine just exactly what the uranium 9ocential is in the province. ~e know already, 11.r . Speaker, that there are si~nificant r eserves on the Coast of Labrador and BRINEY. is engaged in 7792

necPmber O 1°74_ Tape 1071 Rll - 1 delineation of the ex;ict an,ount of these reserves at the present ti,-,e. an 1mrrovi?ci nrice f"nr ,rr:mium, lnproved market conditions have Je.,u to a renE>wa1 c,f intel'.'ee!'lt ln thiR 11re,1. l~c know also, 'Ir.

Soeakei:, that there '1TP occ11rrrnc"s nn the 'lm:in l>eninsu]a anrl e:irlier this summer ,,·e> harl an aen,-nagnct i c sar,ey carrieci ont on the llurin Ppninsula, thl · rP.s:•11 ts 0f vl1i ch ,,,e have not vet attained. 'Rasicall y the Reconnaissance Pr0rra,,,me ,.,111 see the reol o~ical survey of Canada engap,e in both an aero-mar,netic survev and a ~cochemical survey to determine the Province's potential for ur,anium. Mr. <;n,.aker, that is another one of these ''Nipry" thi np:s. <;ir, T would lfl , e to ns!: the Minister of .Justice, Mr.

Sr,eaker,if he wonld care, to com::Pnt nn ;, n11hl.ic statPment marle by his collea~ue, the T11em\,er for <;t. .John's <;ouch PTT whether or not the police talk to the minister a« stated hy the fTlernher for St. .John's South, as a matter of fa.c,t in todav's Dailv newR "Pr,lice don't talk to Minister'', "Polic.e don't tall< to Minister - !•1f'l ls''. l.Jould the minister care to comment on that ,statement? ~--!.!1.'~-~~: T F0ul'1 sav that dul'.'ing the past twelve months there has J,een mon• commnnlcr?tion hetween nnt only the officers of the Newfoundlanc1 Constahulnrv ],ut the men ,md myself than at any time in the history of that nroud forrl'.

Jt~-- '11c_':!lJ: '/ell, tlJC•n maybe the commun:1.cation problem, 1-!r. Speaker, i.s ht?tween the l'"inister anrl the Member for 'lt • .Tohn's South, ~ii:. T ~,oul,l lil:e to direct Another ouestion to the Mini.ster of .Tusti~e. l·Jhen an inquiry, Mr. Speaker, is conducted hy the minister's department - MR. Sl'EAKER: Order, please: 11R. NF:AftY: 1 .' hen an inqu:I ry is conducted by the minister's denRrtment ccmcerninr ,mv JTiatter that is raisP.d as a public issue - AN HONOURABLF :'ElmER: Inaudihlf'. !.:,~ '11:':ARI: No, thRt one was tab 1 ed.

T am coming tn the one that was shown to the Minister. of <;ocial Services and not to the r,ther gentleman who was irivol vec1. Ts it the policy of the department to withhold that report, that inoniry rer,ort from everyhody or just from certain neonle? 779.:J

necember 9,1974. Taof' 1'!71 RH - 2 I am referrinR to the inquiry that was done in Central Newfoundland con­ cerninP. the custodv of a child in Central 'lewfoundl and. AN HONOURABLE MEMRER: Tnaudible. MR. NEARY: rlhat is the policy of the minister's department? It is not a personal family affair. Mr. Sneaker, what I am gettinr. at - MR. SPEAKE_! (Stap:p.): Order, plea,ae! Order, please!

Maybe the honourable member's question is out of order and perhaps if he placed it in writing and submitted it to us for the Order Paper it could he considered. '!R. l'!_~ARY: The point that I am trying to make here is that "Ank" reversed a stand on public viewinp,. Sir, what I want to ask the minister - AN HONOURABLE MEMJIER: Inaudible. Order, please! The honourable member - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order, please! It applies to all honourable members. The honourable member's question has been dealt with. I suggested that it would be more appronriately framed for the Order Paper.

"!R. :'!EARY: Sir, I wonde.r if I coulcl get back to the Hon. the Premier again. \.Tould the Hon. the Premier care to indicate to the House what salary Mr. Groom will receive as President of the new Newfoundland and Labrador Power Corporation and will this be in addition to the salary that he receives as the President of Churchill Falls Corporation? Will this be in addition? Wi 11 Mr. Groom be living in 'lewfoundland or will he be living in Montreal and what fringe benefits will Mr.

Groom receive from the tax­ payers of this l'rovjnce for heading un these two organizations? 0 RF!ITE~ MOORE2_: There is legislation before the HousP. when th~t r~n hP nPh~tPn. It ,,,·ill h<> discussed 1 at that time I 7794

Uecember 9, 1974 Tape 1974 PK - 1 assume, Mr. Speaker, in the meantime I would suggest the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker , I would like to get back to my old buddy over there, the Minister of Public Works. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. m. NEARY: No ) I will deal with him in the next election. MR. ROBERTS: I said he is after pork barrels not pickle barrels . AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: (STAGG): Order, please! I remind honourable members this is the question period, it is not a period for honourable members to get things off their chests, that is out of order. MR.

NEARY: I want to ask the Minister of Public Works a few serious questions about the Health Sciences Complex. First I would like to ask the minister if the project is on schedule? DR. T. FARRELL: The answer to that question, Mr. Speaker, is that the latest date I got for completion, optimistically, was the end of next year 1975 but a few ~onths greater than that. Due to certain problems which have occurred during the year,which I know the honourable member has conversed with, there have been some labour problems, material problems but basically it is within or closely on schedule. There will be a little delay. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. What about cost problems,has the minister encountered any escalation? Have Scrivener asked for any extra money? Have all the contracts being called and let? BR. FARRELL: All I believe, but I am not quite sure, all the contracts ~:tvc 1-ccn r.al 1 I'd ,i.,.i f,:,r thRt: r•"~R""· th .. nr-,1.,,r.t, <;ir, is close to budget. We do not have the exact figures but which we will have very soon. We cannot of course give them until close to the complet:lon of the project.

There have been some escalation but not a great deal on account of the fact that the way this was planned that some of these contracts were called several years ago . I am hopefµl that it will come in very close to budget, I think we will be a little ~ver budget but not grossly. figures later. I will have those 7790

December 9, 1974 T,'lpe l 9 7t, PK - 2 MR. NEARY: !fr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Public Works could indicate to the House whether Mount Scio Rouse, the home of the Premier for the time being,is still under the jurisdiction of the University or has it been transferred back to the minister's department/ DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is that, it is still under the jurisdiction of the University. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to come back to the Hon. Premier again for a moment. The Hon.

Premier, Sir, in announcing a settlement of the fishery strike, the trawler strike there some time ago, indicated that one of the conditions under which the strike was settled was that an inquiry board would be set up to look into all aspects of the fishery. Would the Premier care to comment on a statement made over the weekend by the Minister of Fisheries that no industrial inquiry will be set up until some time away off in the distant future? MR. MOORES: ~y

interpretation on that, Mr. Speaker, is that it was our intent to set up the Board of Inquiry shortly after the Conciliation Board itself mid been established. However, upon the request of both the union and the companies, they asked that it be delayed until such time as the Conciliation Boarc' had an opportunity to report, This- was done. The Conciliation Board Report quite obviously takes it into the social sphere as well as the economic ability to pay sphere. This has tremendous ramification as all members of this House recognize.

This will now be taken and developed but a Board of Inquiry will be established or a group to take the Conciliation Board Report to the next stage or the stage beyond that whereby all the industry is opened up to have a hard look at it so that when the final proposal for the solution to the fishery is brought into being that we will have had the benefit of all of the expertees available. The Minister of Fisheries over the weekend I am sure meant that whilst it was not being done now, first of all it was on the request not to do u; and secondly, it is a matter of when the solution came up,.

We have come up with it now, First of all, we had to deal with the Conciliation Board Report,and secondly, in the long term we obviously have to have an inquiry 779b

~- qmhFr O 1974 Tape 197 PK - :I th.o.t will involve imlust r,,, the fishe 1 m.in, communio is with the federal •:o Jernmc-n • anJ t he ,rov lncio l r,overnm cnr. .m. NEARY: ---- 'lr. :ipe aker, a su1 plernentary quest lo 1. •~ill che " remier indicate to rhe House 1o1hether or not this info=ti'ln h,1s been colll!Dunkated to hoch par ties involved in th,tt disp ute, namely; the fish mere ha-, ts and the ur,ioa? MR. :toORF.S : They 11rc both totally aware of it. ~b . .

Speaker, the s ituat ion of the federal ~ovcrnment and ourselves together with both these group s :\re no1< activelv working on the Concil iation .Boa.rd Report and naturally both pn r t:ies a re as a mdous to come up with a final position as quickly as pos«i!>l " but it is a huge pro:-le1:1. lt h a nroblem that was -1ot tackled fo-r twenty-three yt!ars . It is a problem that we are now trying to tackle but it vill cake time. :IR. NEARY: :.ir.

Speaker , seeing t he Premier is so talkative todny , I wonder if he would care t o comment on a report , Sir, chat we have a top s y- turvy record o( une.~ployment in this province as a su-rvey revealed Lhat was done hv the Atlantic Provinces Et:onotD.ic Council? llR. MOORES: I must say, •1r. Speaker , I have no knowledge of that but I am sure chat the Member for .Bell Island when i t comes to talki ng takes a sec~nd seat to nobody. 7791 •·

December 9, 1974 Tape 1975 IB-1 I am just surprised he has not referred back to early last Saturday morning when there was a very topsy-turvy situation happening in the news media of this province. I am just wondering if the honourable member for Bell Island is ~oing to run for the third party or whether he is goinp. to follow his leader. ?~.:..-~ARRY: I might be able to add some information to that affair. ~_-_}If.ARY,_ I am dealing with the boss. 'fR.

BARRY: If the honourable member would check with that report, he would find that that was the report referring to the time period bet,~~n 1962 and 1972. and I agree with him completely. '.1R. D00DY: Tell us nore about the topsy-turvy bit. He was the Minister of Labour during that time. 'IR. _!~RY: During that period, right. MR. tlEARY: Mr. Speaker, they are awfully sensitive today. They appear as if they are shellshocked over there.

Sir, I do not know if I asked this question of the Minister of Ju.,tice before or not, but does the Minister of Justice favour compulsory roadside tests to track down impaired and drunken drivers? Does he really, as quoted in the "Evening Telegram ·' on November 5, ,·Justice '!inister Favours Compulsory Roadside Tests"? The minister did not make - I:!_R_'._Ji_I,_~Kf AN_;_ I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, ho~r - ~ !;(_._ flE_ARY__:_ Want me to read . t, how it starts? MR.

HICKMAN: Yes. '.IR. :rr:P..RY: ' Justice '1inister T .Alec Hickman says the compulsory roadside bre;ath analysis test - YR. ::EM'.Y: Certainly it should not be criticized. N ~ ll01iOFRABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. -- - ,. --- ·---- HR. HICKMAN: Wait now. Say it again. MR. JlP.ARY_2. "If it works to cut down on the n1Jl11ber of impaired drivers on the road '' , the m:!nister said that it should not be criticized, the compulsory roadside tests for :iJnpaired and drunken drivers. 779d

Decemhcr 9, 1"7l, Tape 1975 IB-2 '~:. Jll_C_}St_½!i:_ What 1 said then and what I say again now is that I have less t!ian enthusiastic sympathy for those who are screaming that this f'top check programme which is a programme which permits police officers to indiscriminately stop motorists on the highway to check to see if they are under the influence of alcoholic. I have less than sympathy for those who say that that is an invasion of the liberty of the subj cc t.

I would be much more impressed if the same people showed a bit more concern for the rights and liberty of the subject who may take his life or her life in their hands when they go on the highway as a result of encountering motorists who are under the influence of alcohol. The Province of Alberta has implemented a stop check programme. I think, if the House will permit, I would like to give very briefly the manner in wM ch this works.

It is not - I do not want people to get the impression that the police are out all day long stopping all motorists or motor vehicles on the highway, llhat they do apparently in that area and if it should ever come to Newfoundland would do, is that they have records, the police have records which indicate the time of the day and the days of the week when there are particularly large and on particular sections of the highway where you find a high rate of motor vehicle accidents .

If we say that between the overpass here and the Holyrood turnoff is a bad area between five and eight o'clock on a Friday evening, the police would announce in advance and give a lot of publicity that they will be indiscriminately stopping ~,otorists and without inconveniencing them to any great extent asking them to indicate whether they have been drinking. The hope is that this will deter motorists from going out on the highwa;r when their ability to drive is impaired. There has been no policy decision by the government of Newfoundland as to whether or not this will he inplemented here.

I can say that we have asked the RCMP to furnish as soon as they are in a position so to do, to furnish us with a report of the success or otherwise of the Alberta programme. That is where it now rests. r~._ li_E~'Z_'- Mr. Speaker, judging from the gaiety and laughter from the government benches, maybe the minister should bring the breathalizer 7791-J

Oeccober ~- l Q74 Ta pe I 0 75 IB-3 into t he House . Sir, J would like co direct a question to my good friend, the Minister of Social Services. I woul d like co ask the mini.seer if - .ki.t •• ~\tY__:__ 1 SIil no friend of yours , I guarantee you that. '.:!!.,_~ I thought t he honourable minister was a very charitable oerson. :-m. _llll\l PH'[:_ I am but not to you though. HR •• ~~l!_Y..:_ I see. Would the minister care co indicate co the Rouse if his clep;irtme ot has yet taken a decision on whether or not special allowances 1:111 be paid the blind 7o00

necemher ", 19711. Tane J 97f. RP - 1 nPople in this Province, MR. l<!ARTIN: E>:cusP me. -~-------------- ~_:_~_ll!'J~V_: }'r. ~neaker. at that tirie we ha,1 heen lookinr at the who1 e situ,itton a.nd as a matter of fact, T hope within the next Few c•avs to have a stat<?rnPnt to tliat effect. !~e have promised the hlind neopl.e but in view of the fact nf the, attitude tahen at the federal level it would be based nn need ,•nly, not the cost of need. It has been rat\Jer difficult between the provinces.

Some provinces have initiated a special allowance for the hlind and we arl;! feeling very sympathetic in my department to it a11c'l the monies can he found so we certainly hol)e to put that allowance ttrroup.:11. MR. Nf.ARY: Mr. <;peaker, another question for the ~~inister of Social Services. Uo11ld t:1e minister care ro indi.cate the various wro11ps that will receive the l c. 7 ner cent increase the f1.rst of January that the minister ;;mnounce-1 2 week or ten days ;!po? I-Jill it b£' sick people or ,-rill it be people who an· unemp loye,! tl 0 ron~h no fault of their own? What proups ?

Could the minister pive us sor1c irlea what groups will receive this increase? Hill everyhody receive i.t or will it just be selected groups? MR. !!UJl PltV : ----- No. Sir, everybody will not receive it. Those who are earning $SO.non n year will not need it. There are no ~roups. cherc are _11rnt thos" people in neei! whose neen is established through the reru 1 ar channels. They will receive it, Sir. That will consist I say, of aq_99 per cent of the peop1£' who are now receiving it. Someone receiving SJ20 today, their familv will receive S3FJ beginninp: in January.

That is an increase of somethinp over one-eighth if you like, of the present income. We have tlie whole table worked out. If any member is anxious to know what people will receive after J;muary 1, we will he only too hapny to Pive it. All the information is available, Sir. Evervbodv who can estahlish a need for help this department will give it to them. '!'here will be no groups. We do not take prnups anymore. Everythinr is based on the need of the individual and that covers ev"?ry individual who has a need in this Province.

If the need can be established they will receive the increase as we have announced here. 71:,01

T)ecc,mhPr () 1974. Tal'e 1976 RIJ - 2 ."IP.. 'IF.ARY: '-Ir. Soeal<er, would the Minister of Social Services care to indic,ate to the House if there is any founrlation to the reports that the numl,er of people on welfare allowances, social assistance in this Province has increased by twenty-five per cent as comnared to this time a year ago. "'R. mJRPHY: Mr. Sneaver, I am very hanpv to resnond to that. It is another question that was thrown out like the honourable member for St. Barbe North threw out on Friday, knowinr. it would he taken up by the media, n f a certain gentleman being macl.e ombudsman.

There is not one word of trut:h in it. The amounts have increased, Sir, suhstantially because of th,, attitude of this government to increase the benefits. The numbers have rlecreased but naturallv if we increase the benefits thirty to fifty per cent, the dollar value is ~oinp to be much higher than it was pre- viously, not withstan<Hng, our numbers are down ten to twelve per cent. All I say. Sir, is there is no substantial increase. We did have a rough period I think in September when the trawler strike was on. That increased the numbers on social assistance.

Rasically, Sir, the regular flow of welfare recipients is down as compared to other years. ~- SPEAKER (Stapg): The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. RORERTS: There is somethin~ on that ooint I iust want to be - AN HONOURARLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: Yes, the first time he spoke since two thirty gunday afternoon . Mll.. ROBERTS: T. iust want to he - MR.. NEA!lV: Inaudible. ~---- ~1R. ROTIERTS: The ~inister is on a sticky wicket. Ile does not need a sticky cannon. I ;ust want to he sure, Mr. Speaker, that I understood the minister's answer.

Is he sayinp that the number receivi~g assistance now, the short-term or long-term, however it is broken down, is less than it was twelve months nast . Is that what I heard hi~ say, Mr. S~eaker? "'!R. HUR1'1TY: I said that the numbers are r:!own from last year. The amounts are up because of substant:i1tl increases in our programme which nrn .ge from something ] ike twenty to twenty-five per cent up to fortv per cent in a lot of cases. Naturally the numbers could be down twenty-five 7802

Pece~her 0 1Q74. Tape 197f; Rl-1 - 3 oer cent and the d'lllar,J value would still he up because of the incre11sPs that this 7-overnll'.ent .<>nv<:', !O:ir, to these neople. ~rn. c;vr-:_,v,:1rn (<;ta.<'g"i: There wn l he one more questi,m. The hnl f hrn,r is ovPr bnt r c!id not R:ive hnnourahle members any no t1 ce so •~e wj l l h.Jve nnt> more questio n . ',ffi. 'IEM{V: ~ir, time really flies. 1 wonder if the 1'linister cou]d indicate to the 'louse. 0.ir. if the assistance that is beinp: paicl out or has been paicl out to strieers is heinl! recovered hy the minister's department? \!oulcl

December 9, 1974 Tape 1977 PK - 1 the minister care to indicate just what groups of strikers received any benefits from the Department of Social Services? MR. MURPHY: •••• if the gentleman would give notice, the "gentleman" I said. If he would give notice I would be only too happy to answer it, put it on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Well could the minister undertake to get me the answer rather tban have me - MR. MURPHY: No, if he will table the answer, Sir, I will be only too happy to answer it. 11R. NEARY: Great co-operation! Talk about arrogance. MR.

MURPHY: I have too many things on my mind people. There is no arrogance there. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG) : ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I asked leave of the House in accordance with Standing Order (23) that the regular Order of the House be adjourned, Sir) the regular order of business of the House be adjourned, to discuss a definite matter of public importance; namely, the singular growth of unemployment in Newfoundland among all other Canadian provinces. This House should be the forum, Mr. Speaker, in which are discussed matters of grave importance to the ordinary citizens of our province. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, when one-fifth, one out of five of our potential workforce is suffering the indignities and the hardships that go with joblessness particularly at this season of the year and in these inflationary times) it is clearly our duty, Mr. Speaker, in all conscience, of all members on both sides of the House, Sir, to face up to this tragic problem that is peculiar to Newfou~dland and Labrador. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! I think the honourable melliber will probably be the most surprised person in the House if I were to allow this motion.

While I agree that this is a matter of definite importance, certainly none of us can disagree with that, it is not something that warrants the adjourning of the normal order of business of the House and accordingly it is not accepted. 7004

Decmember 9, 1974 Tape 1977 PK - 2 Motion (1). MR. W.W. MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. Speaker, when this debate adjourned on Thursday last, it was a matter of a point of order which I rose on, on the proposed amendment proposed by the Honourable Member for Bonavista North in connection with this motion. My grounds of objecting to the amendment,is that, and I quote Beauchesne, page 170

Section 202, (12) "An amendment propo,:ing a direct negative, though it may be covered up by verbiage, is out of order." I submit to, Your Honour, that the amendment proposed by the Member for Bonavista North is indeed really a direct negative to the main motion. Now direct negatives are not allowed because the members have an opportunity to vote on the motion, either "aye" or "nay" and if it is a direct amendment in effect, or if it is a direct negative in effect,you are having a double vote on the same motion.

The nature of this amendment proposes that we not accept the - the resolution, let us put the resolution first. The resolution is that we approve with alterations the rec0111mendation of the Newfoundland Electoral Districts Boundary Commission. The amendment proposes that what we do is we adopt forty-two seats instead of the fifty-one seats. Now I would submit, Your Honour, that the nature of this amendment goes not only entirely against the commission itself but goes entirely against the Bill which we are considering. It is not a matter really on discussion. It would negate the commission itself.

It would be utterly possible for the honourable member if he wishes to bring in an amendment to say the district lines should go in this direction rather than the other direction, but an amendment to reduce the seats to forty-two is not under discussion at this time. It directly negates the main motion itself because what we are considering is the boundaries with alterations of fifty-one seats. Consequently, I think, Your Honour, that it is clearly really out of order. MR. SPEAKER (~TAGG): The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. 700;5

December 9, 1974 Tape 1977 PK - 3 HO . E. M. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, if I might address myself to the point of order which the gentleman for St. John's East has just raised,let me first of all agree that it is common ground that an amemdment which serves only the purpose of negating the motion it purports or the resolution it purports to amend, is out of order. That is connnon ground. amendment does not,in my view , 7800 Mr. Speaker, this

December 9. 1974 Tape 1978 PK - 1 attempt any such end. The motion before the House is to approve with certain amendments -I wonder if the gentleman for St. John's Centre, Hr. Speaker could either continue his conversation outside or refrain from srieaking. It really is difficult to speak with him chattinr, to his colleague there. The point I was making, the main motion before Eouse is one to approve a certain scheme of electoral boundaries. The negative of that, Mr. Speaker, is to disapprove any change in boundaries at all.

The amendment moved by my friend for Bonavista North achieves a purpose or would achieve a purpose if it were to be accepted that could not he achieved by voting in the negative against the original motion. I suLmit, Sir, that is the test by which the matter must stand. The honourable gentleman made a reference to a citation in Beauchesne, may I refer him and Your Honour to t:J,e Erskine May's parliamentary practice the 18th. Edition, and May, of cours;•, is the source, it is marked as "H" throughout Beauchesne. It is the source from which most of ' 1r. Clarke Beauchesne's comments on amendments are drawn.

On page 379 of the 18th. Edition of Hay, will be found the words "The object of an amendment 'lay be either to modify a question in such a way as to increase its acceptability or to present the House a different proposition as an alternative to the original question." I submit that the amendment moved by my friend for Bonavista North falls squarely within that rule, Mr. Speaker.

The only object of it is to make the original questl.on)if it were accepted, if the amendment. were accepted 1 to make the original question more acceptable and it is to prEsent the House with a different proposition as an :1lternative to the original question. I would point out further, Mr. Speaker, that the question of forty-two or fifty-one seats has not been decided in this session of the House of Assembly. It was decided in the 1973 session which was the third session, was it? I am sorry, in the second session of the this general assembly.

It has not been discussed at any time in this session 0f this House of Assembly. 1 LJ O i

December 9, 1974 Tape 1978 PK - 2 So I would think on all grounds, Sir, this amendment is in order. It is not a direct r.egati"'e of the motion. The purpose it would achieve cannot be achieved by simply voting against the motion. If one were to vote against the motion that would achieve a certain effect. If one were to vote for this amendment, Mr. Speaker, that would achieve a different effect.

So I again say that with all respect to the honourable gentleman ~pposite, his point is not well taken and the amendment is in order and shJUld be accepted, put and then debate proceed upon it. ;,R SPEAKER (STAGG): Having considered the arguments of the two honourable gentlemen and having checked with my confreres at the desk, I am inclined to agree with the argument as proposed by the honourable House Leader and his reference to Beauchesne that this amendment does in fact constitute a direct negative and accordingly is out of order. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible, MR.

SPEAKER: (Stagg): Order, please: It is very good actually that the Hon. Leader of the Opposition left the Chamber when he did. Certainly if he were here he would be called upon to apologize for the remark made. There is a method whereby an honourable member can make known his obiection to the Speaker's ruling that is by appealing the ,,.,ca 1•e.,.•~ ..-ul:!'!'~, 1".ot ~ .. a ~.arma] rc:,iark uttered over his shoulder as he leaves the Chamber. I think that is shameful. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to appeal Your Honour's ruling. :11' •• SPEAKER (STACC): It is too late to appeal the Speaker's ruling now.

The honourable the Member for Bonavista North. l'ffi. NEARY: The member has not spoken yet. Why is it too late, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: The Chair does not recognize him. MR. NEARY: The member has not spoken yet, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yau know this is intolerable, you know the childish, churlishness of the Leader of the rJpposition and accompanied by the Member for Bell Island, obviously the Leader of the Opposition stayed out beyond the usual customary ten o'clock 7008

De cemhPr 9 , 19 74 Tape 1978 PK - 3 o'clock :o do so"lr· research and it did not work. Now t ile p0tnt of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable member f or Bell Island is getting up and asking 780~

ltl - 1 to appeal Your Honour's ruling. The member for Bonavista South was on his feet and had been recognize,\. The rules are quite clear , Your Honour. that an appeal has to be taken illlmediately. They have lost their opportunity for the appeal. -~'-E_EA~V_'._ Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, Sir. I wish to point out to the honourable llouse that the member for Bonavista Sout ;1 was not on ~is feet, Sir, had noc been recognized, apparently had no intention of speaking, is not even in attendance in the House today. So, I suggest t .Rt I was in order, Sir.

To that point of order, Sir, neither was the member for Bonavista North recognized because that is why he sat down. He was not recognized by the Chair. _y~--'--~.::'lli.ALL:_ The r,oint is if Your Honour wishes to make a ruling now and the honourable members on the other side who are smarting under Your Honour· s ruling wish to appeal the instant ruling they can. It is obvious tbat the ruling of Your Honour was made and not at the earliest opportunity was it challenged.

If Your Honour wishes to say that they did not have the opportunity to make the appeal, and they wish to get up immediately and do it, that is a different situation altogether. I would suggest that the honourable gentlemen on the other side concern themselves more fully with the debating of the resolution rather than showing their childish frustrations. '!R. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Again this whole episode was brought about by the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition as he left the r.hamber. The honourable member fer Bonavista North was about to be recognized by the Chair.

Certainly there was no move to object to the Speaker's ruling which must be taken at the earliest possible opportunity. If no honourable members wish to speak to motion one, than I guess we can vote on it. The honourable member for Labrador South. MR. 1 lARTUl: ~r. Speaker, I just rise on a point of clarification. I am not certain what has transpired here with all these motions and submotions. Could you just clarify what the situation is with regard to this resolution at the moment? !'R. . SP'E.AJ<£R (MR. STAGG): On two occastons I have called motion one 7Gl0

December 9, 1974 Tape 1979 IB-2 which is the order of business. I am waiting for one of the honourable members in the chamber to speak on it. An earlier proposal for an amendment was ruled out of order. So, the ordinary course of business goes on as usual. That is quite clear or at least should be quite clear. The member for Bonavista North. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was more or less delaying getting up because I thought there was a point of order on the floor at the time. Mr.

Speaker, on Friday when I finished, I was discussing the c01lllllents that hadpreviousiy been made in this honourable House by the present Minister of Education and the Minister of Justice. I believe, Mr. Speaker, it is worth repeating a~ain a few of those words that the minister, the present Minister of Education, uttered in this chamber on April 25, 1972. The minister at that time, Mr.

Speaker, said, "The only thing that we of the administration can take credit for is in our first election to office we irrevocably, irretrievably put an end to this kind of political skulduggery by stating in the Speech from the Throne the government's intention and policy to establish an independent commission that is obviously binding to us." Now, Mr. Speaker, quite obviously the minister and all the other ministers and the members on the governnent side of this House have had second thoughts on this subject. They voiced their opinion on the matter.

They verbally assassinated the previous administration for what they called gerrymandering. They said that they were going to set up a commission that would be binding on them, that they would listen to, that they would adhere to. Lo and behold! Mr. Speaker, we find that a year after this commission report is submitted to government, that it is no longer binding on the present administration. They have taken the commission's report and they have torn it asunder. They have changed 7811

DeceM~cr 9, 1974. Tane 19?.0 RH - 1 somethin~ nver thirty boundaries froM the commission's report. They have not adhered to historical ties in any of the ~istricts. Thev have not adhered to the nresent communications ties, any trend in ronulation as the 0 rcmier stated in his onenin~ address. Therefore, !-Ir. Sneaker. I can onlv say that this is one of the most blatant examples of r.:errymanderin!! that we have witnessed here in 'lewfounclland, the most blatant example. Mr.

Soe,iker, if this r,rincipl e is oursue d and if it is maintained by the present administration then r-,nv T ask them never t0 set up any crJmmission on any subject in this Prov i nc e >1r,ain because the whole idea of setting up a commission is so that thP. commission can submit a report to government that will solve any r,rohlem involved,esnecially, 'fr. Speaker, when ministers of govern­ ment stat e that the commission's report is binding. This is just a was te of the taxnaver's monev. This past three ,,ears , Mr.

Speaker, we have had more commissions set up in 'lewfounrlland than in any previous three year period before. Tf we could only fine! money as easy to solve th<' other problems of our people as we do in findin r money to ~et UP co'111llissions then, Mr. Speaker, t1e wo11J d not have many r,rob lens in Newfouncll and today. I am not surP how much money hut it must be in the tens of millions of dollars that we have spent on commissions this last three vears especially in and aroun ri the St. John' s area. '!R . >:EARY: 'T'ens of thousands of dollars. MR.

THOMS : Hundreds of thousands not tens of thousands, maybe into the nlllions. T suspect that it is nossibly up around three of four million rloll a r s hut t hi s is only a guess • .'.:.~"1._ . __ !~I_C_!~~I_:_ Yon would he more than, say, tP.n thousand per cent out. MR:. _'f.!!_O"~: T.Jell, Mr. Sreaker , as the .Justic- .e Minister said, if I am ten thonsand per cent out this ~oes to show that we should not in future s e t UP these commissions.

After all, Mr, Speaker, the people of Newfound­ land electe-d a governmecnt to do really what we are askin<> the commissions to cl n . '·/hat is wrong with the members of !!Overnmcnt? Are they that incomr, e t ent th.1t thev cannot solve these ;1roblems of our !'eople? T" t l:e.y ar c . t ~ 0n t:iev hav e r.n 1'1\s incss bein g the f'.OVC"rnment. After all the money that they wasterl on this commission. there was no neer of it because 7Uli.

December 9, 1974. Tape 1980 RR - 2 the final report. the resolution which we have, the boundaries within the resolution were penciled out at the dead of night probably down in the Cabinet Room by one r>r two members of the Tory Party. SOME HONOURABLE MF.MllERS: It is a shame! It is a shame! MR. T~OMS: Naturally it is a shame! It is a shame! Not only is it a shame but it is an insult to the four members of the commission. A~ HONOURABE MEMBER: Gentlemen, all gentlemen. MR. THOMS: They are p,entlemen indeed.

They are all worthy Newfoundlanders. outstanding Newfoundlanders but this government does not think so because they think that they did not do a good enough job. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: A great job. MR. THOMS: Actions, ~r. Speaker, speak louder than words. A~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is why we had to face Harbour Main-Bell Island. MR. THOMS: Oh'. Is that what all of this is about? What is this - a get "Stevie" movement, is it? AN fTONOURA!lL E 1'1EMBER : Does he think so? MR. THOMS: It must be. It must be. AN HONOURABLE l'EMBER: Is he worried or what? ~_'.]'HOMS: No, he is not worried.

There is no member of the opposition worried. A~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. THOMS: We are all loo kin~ forward to that big day, Mr. Speaker, when the Premier waltzes down to the Governor-General's house. This is the day we are waiting for. This is the day, Mr. Speaker, that they are preparing for. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: But they may prepare all they like, it does not matter. They can cut up the problems all they like. They can put the boundaries where they like. The final result will be the same, a disasterous defeat for the Tory Government. MR.

NEARY: They can attack Ottawa all they like. MR. THOMS: They can attack Ottawa, they can attack the members of the opposition 7813

!)ecember ~. 1974 Tape 1981 IB-1 can even att:ack t:he people of Newfoundland like they have done on a number of occasions. Hr. Speaker, t:he result will be the same. ~~ '1AP.Sl~I:!::_ On a point: of order, 'Mr. Speaker. I do not think the honourable member is really being relevant to the resolution but I think I really have risen to r=ind him that he has got about ten minutes left. So, he might want to say something in the last ten minutes as hr. has not said anything in his first thirty-five . . ':'li~ J-~~Y_:_ ~Ir.

Speaker, to that point of order, that is typical of the had of points of order that we have been getting from the honourable gentlemen, Sir, childish, nonsensical, foolish and it is about time that the honourable House Leader on the government side learned the rules of the House. !_ffi_._1!!_0J§.:_ To that point of order, l·'r. Speaker. I may say that the honourable member for Bonavista North has said more than the honourable member for St. John's East because he has not got guts enough to speak in this debate the same as many members on the other side have not either. t•IR. SPf.AKl'R (}!R.

STAGG):_ Order, please! ~iU::!_ONCl~BLE ' lEMBER: There will be blueberries this year. !~R. SPI:AKER(}IR. STAGG): '1ayhe honourable members do not wish to hear the Chair's rulin~ on the point of order. The point of order is p.;oocl. at least was relevant when this debate began. However, there h~ve been so many irrelevancies introduced into it and the debate has been so far ranging and wide and sometimes irrelevant and often irreverent, that I am going to allow the honourable member to continue. MR. TH0}1S : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there are so many problems in Newfoundland, so many huge problems, so many problems that 99.9 per cent of our people are very concerned with - Mr. Speaker, the House of Assembly opened this fall almost two weeks ago now and I thought the goverI1111entwere going to cone to grips with some of the major issues of the day, some of the major issues that concern our people, some of the problems that our people are really concerned about. 7Ul4

December 9, 1974 Tape 1981 IB-2 One of the problems that they are not concerned about is redistribution because, Mr. Speaker, I would say ninety-nine per cent of our people, if you ask them today if we need fifty-one members, the answer would be no. Many of them would say if you need - MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. '!'ROHS: Aw, be quiet will you "Schoolboy", be quiet and allow me to speak will you. !l_P~~RY: Sit down and let the bill go through and then we can get on with the other problems you are talking about. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: should speak. MR. THOMS: The honourable member for St.

John's South thinks everybody What does he mean filibustering for a week. We have given you people ample opportunity tp speak and not one of you has spoken yet with the exception of two. MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG): Order, please! A lot of people are guilty of filibustering, I guess. Some of them filibustering if they do not have the floor. The honourable member for Ilonavista North has the floor. However, if his remarks are intemperate or provocative, then he is going to evoke conments such as he did from the other side. The honourable member's points that he is making are basically irrelevant.

He has been allowed to make them because of the many irrelevancies that have been allowed before. If the irrelevancies evoke the responses from honourable gentlemen to my left as they have in the past, then he will have ·to bear with it. ~- THOMS....:_ Mr. Speaker, the resolution before thi.s honourable House at the present time indeed asks us for authority to increase the districts of this province and therefore increase the membership in this honourable House from forty-two to fifty-one. AN HONOURABLE HEMBER: Approve the boundaries. MR.

THOMS: Well, if you approve new boundaries, you automatically approve new members for this honourable House. You automatically do. This is the content of the resolution. 7815

December 9, 1974 Tape 1981 IB-3 All HONOURABLE .IF.MBIIB. : Do not mind the political pigmy over there, HR. THOMS: l!r. Speaker, this indeed is unnecessary. There is no need of it. We have enough members at the present time. As far as I am concerned, the only reason that this government is increasing the membership of this honourable House is to justify the unnecessarY, large cabinet that it has, nineteen members in the cabinet, Mr. Speaker, thirty-three special assistants. Ai~_llOl!OlJIL~I.E ,tr.l.lBER: Unheard of. Unprecedented in the history of the prllvince . }'.f'..·_ "7JO: '.S....:.

Unprecedented most definitely in the province. Unprecedented in any province of Canada, unnecessary. ?-eally, Mr. Speaker. our people will not stand for it. It is too expensive. This is contributing to hi ~h inflation in our province. "lR . DOODY: Tell him to keep above the belt now, Mr. Speaker. Keep your mind closed. MR. THOMS: Never mind, "stevie''will take care of you in the next election in Harbour Main, Bell Island. Guaranteed. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Honourable members are in a particularly jocular mood today esi,ecially honourable members to my left.

I remind the honourable member for Ronavista North that he has approximately two minutes left. I would suggest that honourable members to my left allow him to be heard in silence. MR. _TJ-l(•MS: Almost impossible, "lr. Speaker, because the members on the other side really do not know how. The greatest irritation the people have at the present time is the Tory Govermnent. Of course, we will scratch out that irritation in the next election. Whether or not, Mr.

Speaker, we have fifty-one members, fifty-one districts or whether we have forty-two, that great irritation which only comes to the people of Newfoundland every thirty or forty years, will be scratched out, even in Harbour Main, Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, to sum up my few words. The present government commissione,i a commission to increase the membership of this House from forty-two to fifty-one which is unnecessary, which is most definitely 7Ulo

IJ<,cc,11:ber q l'l/1< Tape 1981 IB-4 unnecessary. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: You voted for it. HR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, at that time they said, "When this c011DDission's report comes into this House or comes into the govermnent, it will be binding on the govermnent." Now, these words were uttered by the Minister of Education and the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, for the present govermnent to sway from these words is grossly misleading this honourable House and grossly misleading the Province of Newfoundland. MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is one area which I would love to have the opportunity to debate.

That is the one concerning whether or not we need fifty- one members in the House. Since the rules state that we must be relevant to the subject and the resolution does not mention that, I will merely say that I am, if anybody is interested. It is a matter of record that I am not in favour of increasing the number even though we did vote for it.

What concerns me in this debate and what should concern every member of this House, is that when the bill was introduced we were given to understand that it was the first step toward taking the delineation of electoral boundaries out of the hands of politicians and putting it in the hands of an independent commission . That, more than anything else. was the reason that I voted for that particular bill.

It is unfortunate that we have seen the commission's recommendations turned down the way we have but 1 do not think it is anything that we should be very, very upset about nor surprised about because after all it is traditional that politicians should try to protect themselves in the electoral battlefield. It is unfortunate that we did not see an independent commission's reconnnendations taken seriously and adhered to but I do not think that we should be too surprised about it. I think in the first instance, the commission might have been 7817

ryecemher 9, 1974 Tape 1?31 IB-5 ?,iven hetter terms of reference in t~nt the norm that was taken as I tl,ink jt was 10,000 and a quota of twenty-five per cent deviation up and down from that figure. I believe the commission should have been told that they could go down only to 7,500 in order to take into consideration the difficulties of representing rural areas, that it was wronr. to P,O up because that allowed the commission then and anybody w:10 choose to change the commission· s recommendations to place the boundaries wheresoever they might please. This of course is what is lt,1ppening.

He heard at the introduction of this resolution the honourable thC' Premier make statements to try to excuse the diddling of the recomrnendations by r,overnment. J am disappo:l .nted. We are all disappointed in fact that honourable gentlenen should stoop so low after the honourable the Minister of Justice having told us that we would not have to go through that sort of business again. Then the honourable the Premier co have to get up and prove him wrong. He mentioned such things as community of interest,of special considerations for geography and special problem areas.

Re mentioned giving fair and equitable representation and then proceeded to outline the new boundaries without any consideration at all for those things . I would like to deal, first of all - perhaps I will restrict my comments only to the situation in Labrador since the island part of the province has been well covered by members of the opposition.

I would like to noint out again that had the Electoral Boundaries Commission's recommendations been adhered to, we still would not have been entirely happy with it but we would have been satisfied to take that as the best of all possible worlds and would have contented outselves that" at least there was no political fiddling. Subsequent to the recommendations of the c01mnission we learned that the census upon which those boundaries were based had not given the true figure for population in Labrador.

We took pains to bring this to the Government's attention through petitions, letters, discussions of various nature 7Uld

December 9, 1974 Tape 1982 PK - 1 and we sincerely felt though that we were making some progress. We had attempted to deal fairly and squarely and face to face with the government, and we thought that we were providing some kind of logical and sensible and responsible representation. We thought that we could believe the government when they said, that our representations would be listened to and taken into account. We find that such was not the case. In fact, we were studiously ignored so much so that we have taken it as a direct and deliberate insult.

The census figures in Labrador West are wrong and they can be proven to be wrong. If anybody should choose to do so, examine the tax records for the municipalities in Labrador West, examine the school board records then you will find that we are approximately 10,000 short. If that is the case then it is incwnbent upon this government to hold up any decision on this resolution until those census figures can be corrected. If that were done then, Sir, everybody could see that we are entitled to two districts where the present District of Labrador West now stands.

If that happened ( We are stating quite emphatically that this is the only way that we can get fair and equitable representation is to have those figures corrected.) it will affect, of necessity, all the rest of the electoral borders doming down south through the province. We were ignored and we are disappointed but we get the message. We get the message loud and clear that regardless of our efforts of trying to act responsible in this House, regardless of our effort to try to provide sensible representation for the people of Labrador it does not count for very much to those gentlemen on the other side.

We will have to act accordingly. The community of interest which the Premier spoke of certainly does not show up on the proposed ~p that sits in the corner there. I cannot for the life of me see why the honourable gentleman should think that there is more of a community of interest between St. Anthony and the Southern Coast of Labrador than there is between the Southern Coast of Labrador and Goose Bay when all of our transportation facilities, our 7819

December 9 , 1974 Tape 1982 communications facilities are located in Goose Bay. that is undeniable. PK - 2 That is a fact For t he people of the Straits Area it was said that their community of interest lay towards St. Anthony. I will agree that their colllllunity of i nterest l ies more toward the Island of Newfoundland than it does toward Goose Bay but it i s certainly not St. Anthony. If there is a coamunity of interest it lies toward Deer Lake and Corner Brook.

The justification was given that long,ungainly, unworkable dist.rict tha t i s proposed to be called "Eagle River" that st.retches from Henley Harbour north to Saglek and was supposed to contain some lc1nd of a commun1ty of i nterest. 1 fai.l to see what it is except that they had a 7820

Dece,ber 9, 1974 Tape no. 1983 Page 1 - MW common problem of government neglect, traditionally. Maybe that gives some kind of community of interest. There is more of a community of interest between the Northern Coast of Labrador and Goose Bay than there is between the Northern Coast of Labrador and the Battle Harbour­ Henley Harbour Area, Everything coming off the Northern Coast or going on to the Northern Coast must pass one way or the other through Goose Bay. The same applies to the south. There is a definite, geographical,social and cultural separation down to the Lake Melville Inlet.

So much for community of interest. These honourable gentlemen, when they t,ook the commission's recommendations and decided to change them around for their own benefit, might have come up with stronger excuses than that. There is no way that any man, any person, can adequately represent that District of Eagle River as it now stands. The electoral boundaries were taken and changed so that the only two relatively easy areas on the coast of those districts, the traditional districts, the only two relatively easy areas to represent were taken out and the hardest areas combined into one district.

In the Straits Area in Labrador South there is at least the semblance of a road. It is relatively easy to represent those seven communities, Between Battle Harbour and Rigolet, the difficulty is compounded by weather, lack of proper transportation. lack of proper accommodations and all the rest of it. That relatively easy part of the district was taken away from that area and put with the Straits of Belle Isle District.

In Labrador North the same thing occurs where people of the Northern Coast, at least, had the advantage of getting more of their member's time because it was easier to represent the Area of Goose Bay-Happy Valley. Now to take the two most difficult areas of two districts, to combine them into one district, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. To say that the community of interest lies in the fact that Coastal Labrador needs special attention, we are confusing economic problems with political problems. The excuse just does not hold. 7821

December 9, 1974 Tape no. 1983 Page 2 !n the Straits of Belle Isle, in that part of the district wich is now called Labrador South, which I have the honour to represent , we have a problem that is growing every day , that has already been recogni zed by the honourable gentlemen opposite , that is well-known to my colleagues here in the Opposition and 1n fact was recognized by the Labrador Royal Commission and by the Commission on Electo ral Boundaries , and that is the feeling of alien.ation be tween t he Coastal Labrador people and the people from the Island of Newfoundland. Whether or not that is j ust ified, I am not prepared to debate at this moment. 702t.

l'ap., 19t:4 lll-1 I will say that the feeling of alienation is caused more by the leaders of the people of the Island of Newfoundland than it is by the people themselves. It is a fact that there is a feeling of alienation that has been called separatism or territorialism or whatever you want to call it. The people of the Coast of Labrador have reached the point where they do not want to have anything whatsoever to do with the Island of Newfoundland. While that may be slightly off the track and may be slightly misguided and they may be putting their frustrations in the wrong place, it is a fact that it is there.

Now, if I had the choice, Sir, to have somebody else make this next argument for me, I would much prefer to do it because having to argue the case for the disenchanted, if I may call them that, people of the Straits Area of Labrador South, puts me in a position of having to try to defend my own political position.

I have already stated that I do not intend to run again in any district so perhaps I can be forgiven if I say that the District of the Straits of Belle Isle as it is proposed, is not only unworkable by reason of geography, by reason of special and peculiar problems, by reason of being remote from the capital, it is also like waving a red flag at a bull. The commission recognized the problem of the feeling of alienation. The commission recol!ll!lended that if a district had to be created in that area, that it would be fifty-fifty, fifty per cent on either side of the Straits.

They recommended that it be split to one-half. When I appeared before the commission I asked that that point be made clear. What was meant by one-half? The commissioners agreed that it meant fifty per cent on the north side and fifty per cent on the south side of the Straits. Honourable gentlemen opposite agreed with that and built it into the amendment, built it into the resolution or at least said that they would.

Instead of leaving it like it was which was bad enough, instead of leaving the boundaries in this proposed district the way that the co11U11ission wanted it, they have made it even worse and enlarged the population area on the Newfoundland side. 7823

De cember ~. 1974 Tape 1984 rn-2 :·low, Sir , I do not care 1~hat kind of a person is going to represent th;:lt district. I do not care who he is, what party he helongs to, the fact that that district is so overbalanced is going to create problems. Political considerations will be given, there is no doubt about that. to how rauch time that representative spends in whichever area. Since the block, the majority of the population resides on the Island of Ne1.1foundland, then he is of necessity going to have to spend more time therr if he hopes to be re-elected.

The time that he spends on the J.abraclor si,le of the Straits is going to be time taken away from that majority . They are ~oing to be upset. If there was ever iqiy way of increasing the depths of this feeling of isolation and alienation and separation or whatever you want to call it, it is by increasing the size of the population on the Newfoundland side of the Straits of Belle Isle . These honourable gentlemen are going to have to come to grips with this problem because it is going to become an issue and it is going to become an issue on the Island of Newfoundland as well as in Labrador.

I do not for a minute think that the ordinary people of the Island part of this province wish to have the people of Labrador mistreated and neglected as they are bv their r,overnment. I do not for a moment think it is the ordinar y people of this province who are creating this feeling of alienation. I do '\Ot think it is necessary to have this feeling of alienation. I do not think we should be having talks of separation. The fact that we are and the fact that it is increasing is a result of the government's inabi l ity to grapple with this problem.

If nothin g else, I think, that issue is reason enough to have this whole resolution reconsidered. There is no point in asking 7824

December Q 1C!711 Tape 1985 IB-1 that the resolution be withdrawn because honourable gentlemen opposite have obviously made up their minds that it is going to go through. In the interest of fairness, and taking the honourable the Premier at his word, I would ask that consideration be given to delaying slightly, postponing the implementation or the passing of this resolution until such time as census figures can be checked in Labrador West. There is no need to take my word for it or anybody else's word, It can be checked simply and easily and relatively quickly.

All that has to he done is for the government to authorize a new census in that area. If this is done and if they are concerned and if they are genuinely interested in giving fair and e~uitable representation, then I am sure they will see that the boundaries are again referred back to the commission. Without belaboring the point, Your Honour, I will ask backbenchers and cabinet ministers alike to give this some very serious thought. If there is any way at this time of causing friction between the two parts of this province, the way to do it is to let this resolution stand. Thank you. MR. GILLETTE: Mr.

Speaker, having to follow the honourable gentleman from Labrador South and after listening to his remarks, actually his plea to this House of Assembly for the P·remier and his cabinet and government and in fact the entire House, to delay , post-pone for a while e.t least the entire resolution, I think, J,ecause of reasons given by him, 1 think it behooves this House, the government and this House, to do exactly that. We have all heard fr.om both sides, ?,articularly from the opposite side of how neglected the Labrador has been and blaming all the neglect on the pervious Liberal administration.

Now, surely p;oodness, we do not want to add to that now. Those of us who are honoured to he in this House and to represent the people of this province ; surely we would want to put a stop to it now. I was very disappointecl because the amendment brought forward by my collea 6ue from Bonavista North was not accepted. I thought it was a ~ood one. I really did. For two reasons, for instance. Humber one, I think, was the principle behind it and the lack of principle in the resolution as it presents itself to the House 7020

T,apP l ~t:5 IS-2 n011. Having ref <>rred back to !!ansard, tl1e reJ11arks made hy cabinet nci~bers an<i b:, the l'rer:iier himself. re.uarks uh1 ch were uc terly ignored, 1·he:1 the commission':: report was broui;ht in, I wonder jus t how t he .c;urviviny. members of this commission feel now. uhat their reacti.on is, if one 1>"ere to speak to t.hcm and ask cbern down in their heart of hearts how ~lier feel about 1.t . These men were good, reliable, honest to goodness, down to earth grntle111en wh<', having a job to do, without any political affiliati ons uhatsoever. tried to do that.

I wonder how they f eel , •·r. ~P<'llk'! t? I wonder. 0£ course. it is quite obvious naturally to everybody in :icwfound land. even to a person uho cannot read and write, who listens to t !lC news on the radio. it is quite obvious to hl.ru why the alterations wPre !'lade . As the member for Labrador South has said, I supoose it will all~ays be that way unless this resolution is changed . I propose actually to bring forth an wnendment to chan~e it - oh, it has been typed for me, t hank you. 1 gave my first reason, I think, on the principle .

Nowt shall so co number two. llere again we did all vote in favour of 7U2o

December 9, 1974 Tapel986 PK - 1 the increase in the number of seats in the honourable House. I must say that although I did vote in favour of it, nevertheless I was not wholeheartedly in favour of it because I did not think for a moment that this little nrovince could afford it really, financially. I hope that some day it will, mind you. I hope that it will. I doubt whether it can now. You know we heard last week from the other side of the House ; Mr . Speaker, that in a very few years the requirements,that is, the square footage for office space for the government - MR. NEARY: There is no quorum.

We cannot even keep the members in the House that are here now, Sir, let alone adding another nine. A ouorum call, Sir. Order, please: We have a quorum. MR. GILLETTE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying when the quorum was given , we heard that just last week that this government are going to require additional 400,000 square feet of office space. Now I do not think this is any way to try and lick the unemployment situation in the province by giving everybody or as many as possible a job, Mr. Speaker.

By increasing the number of M.H.A.'s plus the bureaucracy that goes along with it and no doubt increasing the cabinet a bit more is going to present too great a financial burden,! believe, on this province. I still think that we are not in a financial position to do it. We must admit, I think, that in recent years,at least in last few years that we have steadily increased the number of municipalities throughout the country 702/

Decemher 9, Tane 1987, Page 1 -- anh and the municipalitv, of course, is a level of p;overnment. We have the federal government, we have the nrovincial government and the municinal government. All of these services lessen the work load of the M.H.A. Thev have to. The verv nature of their existence makes it thus. In the area of the government closest to the people is their municipal government. We have representatives. for instance, of the rural development in our areas. These men also help to lighten the load cf the M.H.A. All of it together, Mr.

Speaker, still goes to prove, I think. without a doubt that we do not require fiftv-one members of this House of Assembly. Almost everv conceivahle reason has been given bv the soeakers who preceded me and I have no intention of going back over them again. I do feel, Mr. Speaker, that in view of the Hansard reports, in view of the principle hehind the connnission that I should make this amendment and the amendment is this, that the resolution be amended as follows: By deleting the words "With alterations as set forth in

schedule hereto" and reolacing them with the words "Without alteration and further that the

schedule he deleted and replaced with the electoral district houndaries set forth in the final report of the Newfoundland Electoral District Boundaries Commission." AN HON. MEMRER: Hear! Hear! MR. r.ILLETTF.: This amendment, Mr. Speaker, will, I think, put us . --- ---·-- back to square one. MR. ROBEFTS: He has to sav whether it is in order vet. MR. SPEAKER (Stagp;): Has is been geconded? ::lR...:..£1.L,LF.TTE: Yes, it has heen seconded by the Member for Foe;o. I am sorrv! MR. SPEAKER (Stagg):_ Order olease !

In view of the fact that this amendment is of considerahle substance and will lead to protracted debate, I will adjourn for a short period of time to consider it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) -- -------- ~!)l_._ g _EA!E_~J__Stap:P,) E__ I shall hear representations before we ad _1ourn, that is if honourable members orefer to make representation.

necemher 9. 1974, Taoe 1987, Pa~e 2 -- aob MR. R_O_BF:RTS: (Inaudible) ~ -- SPEAKER _(Stav,g): If honourable members wish to ar~ue at the oresent t tlTie I will entertain argument if not I will adjourn to make my decision . SOME HON. MJ:."MBERS: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER _(StJlgW lf there be no ar~ument I will ad1ourn to make a decision. 7829

December 9, 1974 Tape 1988 IB-1 MR._~PEAKER (STAG(;) : Order, please! I have considered the proposed amendment as put forth by the member for Twillingate and I find that it is in order. MR. 1.ILLETTE: Thank you, Nr. Speaker. At last I think that the honourable members on the government side are heginning to see that this resolution does need to be changed, it does need to be altered. Had the Speaker not accepted it and had the resolution gone through as it reads, I would have been left along with thousanrls of others.

I would say, to conclude only that the government majority overrules the minority regardless of whether the argument is just or unjust . .J:!R. __ SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please: The honourable member, while his amendment has been ruled in order, is now drawn to the rule of relevancy. _'._lR_._C';_l_I~_ETTE:_ l!r. Speaker, I feel that almost everything - at least I cannot think of another sentence that can be spoken in debate in this resolution. Actually our leader covered almost everything in his speech when the resolution was introduced. Subsequent speakers have done the same.

Now, I could perhaps, speak on my district where my district disturbed - AN !!O!mURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. ------· 'IR. GILLETTE: No, I have not got a copy. I have no quarrel with the boundaries. This resolution, Mr. Speaker. does not change the boundaries of the District of Twillingate. The report did. It took Change Islands, Boyd's Cove, Comfort Cove into the distrlct. So, therefore I have no quarrel because the boundaries of Twillingate District have not been chan~ed and Twillingate District still remains as it is now and it has been for a number of years. Nr.

Speaker, I think we have to take very serious consideration of Labrador, its needs, its people, how best it can be served. I have every respect for the member for Labrador South. I believe he knows what he is talking about. He is mixing among his people all the time. I think his voice should be heard. I hope it is. I hope the voice of my 7030

December 9, 1974 Tape no. 1989 Page 1 - MW colleague, the Member for Labrador North, hae heard. Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to know that the amendment has been accepted and I trust that the debate that comes from this amendment will be for the betterment of the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Everybody will benefit from it. I can only say that the people of Newfoundland look to this House of Assembly to take care of their needs, individually and collectively, and this resolution and the amendment to it, is meant to do that. Thank you. MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I am continuing on the resolution rather than the amendment. I take it that that is in order. XR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Stagg): At the present tilne, we are speaking to the amendment. The amendment must be disposed of before we can either speak to the amended motion or the motion as was originally proposed, MR. WINSOR: All right, the next time around. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): The Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the amendment so ably moved by my colleague, the Member for Twillingate.

Sir, I might say that I am speaking at a little bit of a handicap because I thought Your Honour that we had Map No. 2 in the Opposition Office, Sir, but I am afraid that the map has been borrowed by the CBC and they have sent out for it and it is on the way here to the House of Assembly now. I am wondering if the Honourable Premier has the second map that we could - MR. MOORES: You have one. _MR. NEARY: Yes, I know but we loaned it to the CBC. It is on the way back now. I would like to have one, Mr. Speaker. I would iike to get a map to replace that coloured one down there. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR.

NEARY: I beg your pardon? 7831

December 9, 1974 Tape no. 1989 Page 2 MR. NEARY: It is what in the House? AN HON . MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I want to get the pointer, Sir, and go over the map like a schoolmaster, the same way the Premier did when he brought in this Map No. 2. The Honourable Premier knows what I am talking about. Does he have it down on the Eighth Floor that we could borrow it? I MR. DOODY: The Honourable Premier knows what you are talking about. He deserves to be leader - MR. NEARY: What else would you expect from twenty-five per cent discount Doody, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, what this amendment means is that not one item of the royal commission report, Sir, is changed. We adopt the reconnnendation of the royal commission unchanged. That is what it means, Mr. Speaker. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that so far in the debate, (I am the first one to speak to the amendment. I do not know, Sir, if it is in order to refer back to the resolution. Maybe it is not.

I do not want to refer to the resolution as such but I do want to say this.) I am amazed and surprised at the few members on the government benches, Sir, who have taken any kind of an interest at all in this matter of redistribution. I do not know if they have been muzzled by the Honourable Premier, Sir. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: The Minister of Social Services says that they have not had a chance to speak. Well, Sir, if the Honourable Premier, if he had spoken this afternoon before my colleague, the Member for Twillingate rose in his place, the Honourable the Premier would have closed the debate.

Is there closure? Are the members on the other side - have the members been given -

December 9, 1974 'I ape no. 1989 Page 3 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order please! The honourable member prefaced his remarks wondering whether they were in order, they are irrelevant to the amendmllcClt as proposed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I hope that on this amendment that we will hear from the honourable tongue-tied members on the govern111ent benches, Sir. I hope 7833

December 9. 1074 Tape 19gn IB-1 1 hope thet the Premier has not sent out instructions, has not ordere<l his backbenchers an<l ministers to remain silent on this most important amendment. I hope for instance that the member for St. John's South, Sir, who has been so vocal on redistribution outside of this honourable House, will have the courage of his convictions, Sir, and will stand in his place in this honourable House and give us the benefit of his experience and the benefit of his few remarks on this very, verv i.mportant matter. I hope the member for St. John's North.

Sir, who has had a few wor <ls in the past on redistribution both inside and outside the House _ l hope that the member will favour us, Sir, with his knowledge of this subject and speak to this amendment. The amendment, as my colleague, the member for Twillingate started to say in the beginning, puts us right back to square one. If members on both sides of this honourable House, Sir, accept and vote in favour of the amendment moved by my colleague, then what we will be doing in effect is accepting the report of the Royal Commission on Electoral Boundaries in this province. You know what that means, Mr. Speaker.

That means that we on this side of the House would again be going back to the fifty-one members but, ' ir. Speal•er, what choice do we have? Is it not better for us, Sir, here on this honourable side of the House to now go along with the fifty-one members - we do not have much choice, we are being forced to - rather than the gerrymandering that is being done by the administration that we see on that coloured map in the corner.

As much as we would object, Sir, to fifty-one members, we would r.rudgingly,because we think it is better than what we have before us now in the original resolution, we would grudgingly, even though ue know there is galloping inflation in this province, Sir, and that the report of the Royal Commission on Electoral Boundaries in this province should have been shelved, ~hould have been given the twelve month hoist. although we really and honestly and sincerely, Sir, believe that, 2lthough we really believe, Sir, that there is no need to add another nine members to the already overburdened House of Assembly, even 7034

December 9, 1974 Tape 1990 though we really believe that, Sir, we would be prepared to make the sacrifice rather than accept the gerrymandering of the Moores Administration. IB-2 Sir, I might say that in regard to fifty-one members that the ro yal commission had no choice. They were told by the administration that they had to set out the boundaries for fifty-one electoral districts. They had no choice, Sir. They were not told, Mr.

Speaker, by the administration that they could go out and they could shift boundaries here and there and that they could use their own descretion on the number of members that are required in the Rouse of Assembly. They did not have that privilege, Sir. The late Judge Higgins was not given that in his term of reference. They were told they must bring in fifty~one districts. The poor old royal commission, Sir, did not have much elbow room. They had to work within the terms of reference. One of the main terms of reference was that they had to bring in fifty-one members, no choice. Even though probably, Mr.

Speaker, if the late Judge Higgins were standing in my place on the floor of this honourable House today, that he might disagree with fifty-one members and certainly, Sir, with galloping inflation in this province, I am sure that not only the late judge but the other common sense Newfoundland members of that royal commission would disagree. ~--=-!iJ!SSHALL;_ On a point or order, Mr. Speaker. The honourable member is debating the fact of whether or not really there should be fifty-one or forty-two. Now, the amendment before this honourable House now is that the original or the final recommendations of the 7835

DP.cemher 9, 1974 Tanc- 1991 PK - 1 commission be accented. The final rc-colfl!llendation constitute• fifty­ one sc-ats. I would suggest that the honourable member is entering into a realm of dehate not relevant to the amendment itself. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. My coil.league is not entering into any eealm of debate that is out of order. He is merelv saying and I have been following him, _ even though I have been taking snme advice from the Clerk on a point of procedure, I am following him auite carefully. He is merelv saying whv WP. w~nt tn ~n h~ck to the origjnal ~oundaries.

He is making his point very effectively and ohvi ,-•uslv annoying the honourable gentleman for St. John's East that, Sir, has nothing to do with the rul!?S of the House. My colleague is simply saving t'hat we would prefer there be forty-two but since there are not to be forty-two and the Tor_ies will not have "it, then we prefer to go hack to the fifty-one, and the fifty-one as recommended bv the commisston, b:• the commission headed by Mr •. Justice Higgins •. That is what he is saying. He may be. saying it in rheto.rical fashion but, Your Honour, have we come to the point in this .

House where a member cannot speak in explanatory, declamatory or rhetorical fashion? Surely we have not. HR. SPEAKE°R (STAGG): Well I am not sure. If I c_an interpr _et tl,e Hon. Leader of the Opµosition's last remarks but nevertheless the honourable Member for Bell Island was irrelevant. The amendment as it is to be debated has to be debated i.n very closely defined. lines of relevancv and he was outside of it. I am sure the honourable member being the experienced oarliamentari~n that he is can get himself within the scope of this amendment. MR.

NEARY: Well, Sir, I do not know, I mean I am sort of walking the razor's edge here, you know. We are talking about the final report of the commission, Sir, which set out fifty-one boundaries - 'fR. ROBERTS: And ,,hy we want to go back. MR. NEA..'l.Y: And why we want to go back to that report, Sir, rather than this mon~trosity that we have before us. The reason t••e want to go back, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated a few moments ago, even though it is against our better judgment, Sir, 7G3ti

December 9, 1974 Tape 1991 PK - 2 it is against our gall to agree, to even appear to agree that at this time of galloning inflation in Newfoundland that we should want fifty-one members in the House of Assembly. But, Sir, that is better, we feel,and that is why we move the amendment, Sir, my colleague moved the amendment. We feel that is better than what we have before us in the resolution, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: It is second best but way ahead of t~e Tories. MR. NEARY: It is second best. We would like to see the whole thing given the twelve month hoist, Mr.

Speaker, but obviously the government are not going to do that. They are eager to press on with redistribution. They are eager, Sir, to rush this through the House as fast as they can so that the Hon. Premier can climb into his gas­ guzzling Cadillac,drive down to Confederation Building, dissolve the House. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you what the issue is going to be. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I can tell you what the issue is going to be. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, pleaee! While the honourable member has been drawn to the rule of relevancy - AN RON. MEMBER Inaudible. MR.

SPEAKER (STAr.r.): Order, please! It is rather difficult to make the same ruling four or five times in the same afternoon and attempt to make it in a different language RO that it is not monotonous. However, the honourable member is drawn to the same ruling I made earlier. He is making debate that is, while interesting, irrelevant; ·· MR. NEARY: Sir, we are talking about redistributing - AN RON. MEMBER: Redistribution. MR. NEARY: The electoral boundaries in Newfoundland, Sir. I would submit, Your Honour, and I am not appealing Your Honour's ruling but I just want - AN J{ON. MEMBER: Re is questioning it. MR.

NEARY: No I am not questioning it. I have more respect for the Chair than that but, Sir, this does have something to do with an election. Redistributinf the boundaries, Sir, does in some small way, some minor way _ you can connect it with a provincial general election. 783i

December 9, 1974 PK - 3 Your 'lonour. if che lion. Premier is not anxious to ram this Redis­ tribution llUl through the House so that he can call a nrovincial iencral election, Sir, then maybe the reason he is so anxious to p.et the Bill throug h the House, Sir. co ~et the House closed is that. he Pal'tS t n go down and war,n his ,:hin,; in the wateri; of Floi:dia or in t'1e !•lest lnd ie'I. "<'r·: re levanc ! Verv relevant! l-ure lr is all very relevant. The non. Pi:emier is -., ·,toush· ... r. Soeal•cr. in a hurry.

Clbviouialv in a hurrv, Sir, when he • t ood up this afternoon to chok ;, off the debate and get a vote on t ' I<= r e!'ol ution. AN HON. 'IE~ll\f.R: ! t is non.;ense . ?'.ll. NEARY: 1 t Is not nonsen1<e, Sir, the Hon. Premier did stand - ~'-.:.. }ff:,mr.R: Sure he stood . HR..:.. ~F.ARY: To tcv to wind up t he debate today . ~IP.. "lARSIIAl.L: On a ~oint of order, Mr. Speaker . This is also n,) t rP levant to this motion. The mot.ion he fore Your llonour 7838

Decemher 9, 1974. Tape 1992 RH - 1 now is that we P;O back to the final report of the commissfon. Whether or not the Premier r,ot up on the resoltuion and whatever the honourable member for llel l. lEland supposes or presupposes, or the Premier for that matter~ what anyone is going to do, amendment. has no relevance whatsoever to this particular MR.

SPEAKF.R (Stagg): Again, the honourable member when he begins to make his points relevant is quite successful at it but 1mfortunately he is drawn into irrelevancies quite frequently and when irrelevancies come before the House it is the right of any member to object to them on a ooint of order, certainly for the Chair as well. The honourable member may proceed with relevant material. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the maps are on the way. I wish I had the map here so I could go over it, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: That is right, Sir, and I am sure there must be a map outlining the second report of the royal commission, Sir, somewhere in this building. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. It was in the paper, was it? MR. NEARY: }~. ROBERTS : No, the Tory Government tried to hide it. - the people in the House - MR. NEAR~ : Mr. ~peaker, I do remember this, I do remember this and I have to agree with my colleapue to the right here, the member for Labrador South who unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, will not be with us next time around. The member has - AN JTONOPRABLE MEMBER: He has the right to change his mind. MR.

NE.A.RV: !le could change his mind. But. Sir, in the report of the royal colllJllission. Mr. Speaker, Labrador was f!;iVen three districts. MR. ROBE~T~: Sure, the Premier moved that amendment himself. MR. NEARY: The Hon. the Premier, I am reminded by the Leader of the Ooposition. moved an amendment, Sir, making it law that Labrador, immaterial of what the royal commission did, Labrador would have three districts. MR. ROBFRTS: Two and a half. MR. ~EARY: Two and a half? MR. ROBERTS: But they only have 2.2, three and a half. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Three and a half. 7839

RII - 1 ''~:.-'l_'"E•V • Three ,incl 11 h,ilf . That i s rir.h t. <;fr . Three an<I "half, Mr . Sneaker . I nam!ibl e . ~'.!!!.:~f..-\_e.!_: ' :(l,: thc-v r:nd \tfl with wh:11:. 2.2? '-fR._ ·, F.<.f?Y• 'l, ? Hi-J l. r.Jt hs ~·as never onl.' i-f 111y hest s11r1ects . ::,:,w. '1r. <;real·cr . H the f"BRe c-oul<I hrinr rlown the hull etin . board '' " in : he c-orner t here nnd io;c:lcJ, it out in t'te r.icldle of the floor. •-:1> cAn put the "'"'" on it. Mr. Speak er, and nerhars we can go over ic . "r. <:ncnker.

Your n,, nour will renem!>er tMt over thirty districts have heon rerrymandered anrl when we pu t map nW11ber two up. Sir, <ihich l'- the reno n nf t he roval cot!lmii;sion, Your Honour will hardly recoPni?e i t. · •e nrc tolrl, ' 'r. <;!)eak<-r. that dist ricts were drawn up hec-:ius e o f thl' comMunirv inte rest. 1 ·,•oulc! love to have th11t little ~ilvcr •hinp that - "R . ()()/"\ '"' : WhP re ls c',,1c little silvPr sponn tha t the Prc>,mif'Or hacl ther e ---- :he otht>r rl:iy ? A'l HONOL'RMLt ~'!:' !Jll>R: Inaudi ble . ~~: lien• we are. look . 'low, 'Ir.

Sneaker, just in case r y honourable "rien ,!s f'n c?le !'ovemment henc:hes do n<'t reml?!Tlher. tlo not recall. in case, <; Lr . trc ~ ha~ a l apse of nP.mor y, in case they nre suffcrinr from amnesia. he,re f s .an number two . the seconcl mar,. ':R . norvw: I wonder if he cAn move t hnt nvE>r here . l!e cannot see it. -- ·- -- ''_R_:__R0~_.-.3_,:_~: It i~ better stuc ~ uD old r,in. ~lR. ~'!.'':'.': Thi,, . c;1r , wns the r ecommen,lation of the rnyal cnmmission untler the 1,.ce .t ut!l!e 1Jir2ini;.

Decemb~r 9, 1974, Tape 1993, Page 1 -- anb Members will notice, Sir, members will notice that Labrador was given bv the royal commission three and one - half districts. Three and one half. Three point five districts. And, Sir, - MR~_ ~_l)Y: · Now which one of you gents won the leadership? Let us ~et this straight. MR. NEARY: Honourable members will recall, Mr. Speaker, that the - -··- -- District of St. Barbe Sir, was not stretched out to cover a coast­ line of about, what? Three hundred and fifty miles? It was cut down- a district the size of - that could be serviced by a member.

MR. __ ~DY: You are doing a great job. MR. _ _ N)':_AR_Y: Without any problems at all, Sir, it could be looked after. Baie Verte, Mr, Speaker. Here is a good Liberal - they are afraid to call a b~-election dawn there. But, Sir, under the royal commission report the Baie Verte Peninsula, Mr, Speaker, was to be a district by itself, a district of its own which makes a lot of sense. It is a growing area, you have all kinds of mining going on down there and it makes a lot of sense becalJBe of the transportation problems and so forth - AN _}!_O~--~EMBER: r.ot rid of St. Mary' s to do it. MR.

NEARY: It is a wonder they did not put Baie Verte in with St. Mary's, Sir, the way they gerrymandered the other map. But, Sir, that makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense, Mr. Speaker, for Baie Verte to be a district unto itself the same as it makes a lot of sense, Sir, to have that portion of White Bay a district by itself. MR. ~ DY: (Inaudible) MR._N~RY: No, Sir, but at least you do not have to get into a boat - MR. ~ODY: No, use water wings. MR. NEARY: Under the gerrymandered map, Sir, Baie Verte is in with this oart of White Bay North. MR. -~(?ODY: Tell me how to get from Cat Arm River to St.

Anthony without getting in a boat. MR~_!ig.RY: Mr. Speaker, at least, Sir, this is serviceable. This is serviceable, Sir. There is no way that one member can service a district the way it is gerryma~dered. 7841

necP.mber 9, l974, Taoe l993, Pa~e 2 -- anb MR .. _MU_RPHY: (Inaudible) MR ._~.:.. Mr. Sneake r , there was a lot of thou!tht went into this map, Sir, this repor t. A lot of thought. There were a number of reoresentations made to t he royal commission. As a result of the reprP.sentations that were made they chan~ed the firs t map and developed what we nov know as the second mao. They chanaed some of the boundaries because of ~eo~raohi c difficulti es, Sir, and made them more serviceable so that members could look after their distri cts. But, Mr.

Sneaker, I want to aet a little close r to h011e. 1 w'lnt to ,-et down here on the Avalon Peninsula where, t suopos e, we h~ve the worst examole of gerrymanderin ~ in Newfoundland ' s hi storv. Mr. Soeaker, there was a time when there waa a district in l':ewfounclland known as Harbour 'lain - llell Island. ~IR. DOODY: Rear ! Hear : Now it is back. ~--_NEARY: Mr. Soeake r . that distric t extended from Marysvale down to Parad i se, I think it was, and i ncluded Rell Island . MR:.. -~ 9..Q.'G. Mr. Fahev, Mr. Jackman, Mr. Smallwood - all honourable ~entlemen .

MR._NF.ARY :_ Now, Sir. the neoole of Bell Island could never understand whv they ~·ere a part of the Harbour Hain - Bell Island District. Thev could never under~tand it. Mr. Speake r, 7842

December 9, 1974 Tape 1994 IB-1 The time finally came when because of the population growth on the southshore of Conception Bay and the population on Bell Island rising to about 14 ,000, that the administration of the day in its wisdom thought that it was time to make Dell Island a separate district. Safeguarding , Mr. Speaker , the traditional factors that were involved in making Bell Island another district, looking at the religious factors - AN HON_OURABLE MEMBER: They do not use that. ~Ul. NY~:!.:_ No, they do not use that anymore. AN HONOURABLE c·ill!IBER: Inaudible.

MR. ?ffARY : Oh, indeed they do not use it anymore. That is because Bell Islann, Sir, had predominantly an RC population, it was always considered as an RC district. So, that sort of evened things out, Sir. It balanced things out. !-J'l flONO!JRATlLI: !IE~.BER: It balanced out with what? MR. llEARY: Mr. Speaker, it balanced things out in this way; that there is a large concentration, Sir, of Roman Catholics on the Avalon Peninsula. a large concentration. But, Mr. Speaker, they do not have the representation really.

If you look at the overall picture of Newfounrlland, they do not have the representation in this honourable House, Sir - SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Here it comes. Here it comes. MR. MURPHY: The Ecumenical Council is finished. ----- MR. NEARY: Oh, listen to old charity over there himself. So. Mr. Speaker, the royal commission, Sir, continued to recognize this fact, that it was necessary - All HONOURABLE nEMBE'l: Inaudible. HR. NEARY: The roy ., l commission, Sir, I would say had this in the back of their mind.

They dicl recognize the fact that the status quo, that the traditions of tlds province, one the honourable the Premier did not mention when he was introducing his map, that religious representation, Sir, does have some bearing on the way you - MR. DOODY: Are you running for Bell Island or Vatican City? MR. NEARY: Ho, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, Bell Island was always considered to be a merasheen district but now, Sir, it is being tossed back in with Harbour 784J

December 9 . 1974 Tape 1994 IB-2 Hain. ~-'-~~DY :. Yes, and there will be an awful battle at Tom Patrick's at the head of the bay. '.:~·- NEARY : Is that so. }IR. DOODY : (First

part inaudible) This is terrible "Steve". Forget religion will you and get back to the House. Do not be so bitter and smalJ, boy . J!R. __ m;AR.!.:_ i,1ell, Sir, it has always heen a factor, Mr. Speaker, whether the honourable memberscare to recognize it or not. It is there, Sir, and it is continuously seething beneath the surface. Oh yes, Sir. MR. NEARY: 1·0, I do not want to bring them back again. ~lR. BARRY: Does your leader approve of this line of speaking? .'tR.

ROBERTS: Why did the Tories change from the recommendations Jim Higgins twice made that Portugal Cove, Bell Island should - i:gl~ .. .B..~~ This is what I am coming to, Mr. Speaker. ~!R. BARR~ Oh, the leader knows this line of speech. }'iR. NEARY: What line of speech? Hr. Speaker, I am quite sincere, Sir, in my line of speech, in my logic. I would say it is something that we should get out in the open. We should not try to sweep it under the carpet as the honourable Premier tried to do when he introduced that third map. I hope, !!r. Speaker, that there is no bigotry or prejudice invol ved.

I hope there is not and I am sure there is not, Sir. I am sure there is not. I am sure the honourable Premier would be above that, would rise above it. Sir, the District of Bell Island on the two maps was thrown in, Sir, with Portugal Cove and a part of St. Phillips, all that area east of the Olcl Broad Cove Road going down about two tenths of a mile clown the Indian Meal Line, Sir. It was to be the new expanded district of Bell Island, Portugal Cove, twice recommended by the royal commission, }- • HO,IOU_RABLE HE!-IBER: Once. !~'. .. N~..!!_'C .. Twice, Sir. :'R. DOOD,Y_:_ Only one report. 7844

',.J. Decembe r 9. 1974 Tape 1994 IB-3 '.!!.:_ !ff.ARY: This is the s econd map, Sir. jtR . DOODY: Only or.e report. ~!R. ~F.ARY: Twice it was rec0111111ended . . ~....:.J2.00DY: One report . HR. ROBERTS: Ignore him ''Steve". He i s afraid to speak. Mr. Speake r , bow in the name of common sense could the governm ent , the honourable the Premier f ling it back with Harbour Main again? Bow? Why? 7845

December 9, 1974 Tape 1995 PK - 1 It does not make sense. We have, the people of Bell Island have, no community of interest any more with the people in the head of the bay . AN HON. MEMBER: Oh gee whiz! Half Bell Island is up there right now. MR. NEARY: Aw! Maybe over in my honourable friend's district but not up in the head of the bay, on the south shore of Conception Bay, Mr. Speaker. A lot of my constituents resettled on the south shore of Conception Bay when the mines closed. AN RON. ME~IBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Sir, I would not be so ignorant as to do what the honourable minister did on television this afternoon, dragged my mother into this thing. I will give the honourable minister fair warning that if he ever does it again, Sir, there will be a repeat nerformance of what happened in this House a few years ago. Leave my poor eighty year old mother out of this . AN HON . ME~lBF.R: Was she not born in Harbour Main? MR. ROBERTS: She had little control over where she was born. The honourable gentleman over there has control over what he says. The honourable gentleman over there does have control over .what he says.

Mr11. Neary had no control over where she was born. MR. DOODY: MR . NEARY: That is quite obvious. I just asked was she or was ahe not? Wha t has my mother have to do with this? I warn the honourable member if he keeps it up he will be bottom up over there before he knows what struck him. MR. SPF.AKER (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: That may not be relevant! MR. NEARY: Well it may not be relevant, Sir, but it will be relevant to the minister I will tell him that right now. But, Sir, how do they manage to reconcile the fact that Bell Island should be thrm.m back with Harbour Main?

Sir, t)le commission, in my opinion, were quite justified, quite right in putting Bell Island, expanding the District of Bell Island in with Portugal Cove and a part of St. Phillips. Quite 1ustified. The ferry terminal is in Portugal Cove, There is no question about that. People from Portugal Cove earn their 784b

December 9, 1974 Ta-pe 1995 PK - 2 living directly because of Bell Island, both working on the ferry and working at the terminal and taxi driving. So the obvious place to put Bell Island, Sir, wae in with Portugal Cove wae it not? MR. DOODY: Do•m on · the Burin Peninsula the taxis should be a part of St. John's East. MR. NEARY: Is not that the obvious thing to do, Sir? You know what they have done under the new map, Sir, they have divided Portugal Cove right down the centre. MR. MOORES: MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: What about St. John's? Corner Brook? Inaudible.

The Community of Portugal Cove, Mr. Stieaker - You will not divide Happy Valley/C.:OnRe RAv - The Community of Portugal Cove divided right straight dm-m the centre, if you want to put water and sewerage in, Sir, and you have Tory member on thie eide and a Liberal member on that side and the government happens to be Tor_y, you will put in half a sewer system. MR. ROBERTS: You better hope that Babb Construction gets the contract. MR. NEARY: And Babb Construction will probably get the contract. AN HON. MEMBER: We do not tender. MR. ROBERTS: his name? AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

ROBERTS: The yonng fellow has got to make his living. What is Brian. Brian. HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. NEARY: MR. MOORES: MR. NEARY: MR. MOORES: MR. NEARY: Sir. Mr. Speaker, it certainly made a lot of senae-4 Sir. Inaudible. Ollviously, Mr. Speaker - Inaudible. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier to withdraw that statement, 784/

Dec ember 9 , 1974 Tape 1995 PK - 3 MR, ROBERTS: MR. MOORES: He. is on a sensitive point - Babb Constr11ction. No, he is there talk:tng about salmon. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: What about the honourable Minister of Indietrial Development - MR. SPEAKER (;DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Talking about my mother on television yesterday. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPF.AKER (DUNPHY): Order, please! AN HON . .fEMBER: MR. SPF.AKER: his seat. Inaudib l e. Order, please! Will tre honourable member take MR. NF.ARY: Come on! Come on! Come on, let us go! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down! MR.

SPEAKER: Will the honourable member take his seat please! This House is becoming quite disarra:r-d. AN HON. M)lliBER: Jou might say that, Sir, yes. MR. SPEAKER: - Yes. The honourable Member fo.r Bell Island presumably is speaking on the amendment to the bo'UT'daries and there is much, too much talk going from either side of the House. I would ask honourable members to hear hill! in silence and I would ask that he get on with the debate to the amendment. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I am sure that - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Who is going to get who? that the honourable - MR. S.PEAlCER (DUNPHY) : 7048 Order, please!

I am sure, Mr. -Speaker.

December 9, 1974 Tape no. 1996 Pagel - MW MR. ROBERTS: Charlie Bret has made his only contribution here, he is going to get me. MR. NEARY: I am sure, Mr. Speak.er, that the Hon. the late Judge Higgins, in his wisdom, took into account not only the status quo as far as religion is concerned ~ut the population growth of the various parts of the province. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Sir, that is a fact. I did not make it up. It is there. Members can tut! tut! tut! tut! all they like. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY·: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). Of course he did. (Inaudible). That is not a factor.

The Premier does not consider that to be a very important factor in this whole matter, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: - across the Tickle. MR. NEARY: I am across the Tickle. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the commission knew what they were doing. They put a lot of thought into this report. They had received representation, Sir, all over the province. Mr. Speaker, we have been told in this honourable House in the last few days that a n1J111ber of organizations, Sir, in the head of the bay, objected to the way the Hr. Main District was divided.

Well, Sir, I am told that these objections were solicited by the Junior Member for Harbour Main and passed over to the Premier. The Honourable Premier was misled, Sir. MR. DOODY: You are wrong. MR. NEARY: No, I am not wrong, Sir. 7849

December 9, 1974 Tape no. 1996 Page 2 MR. DOODY: They were not passed over to the Premier, they were passed over to the Boundaries Commission. MR. NEARY: Passed to the Boundaries Commission? Ah! Now, we are getting an admission, Sir. Now we are getting close to the truth. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR . NEARY: Old pickle-barrel went up to the head of the bay, Sir, and asked these organizations to submit an objection. MR. DOODY: MR. IIEARY: Every Progressive Conservative up there objected, Ah! Mr.

Speaker, there was not one individual, not one person in the head of the bJy who asked to have the district put back to Harbour Main-Bell Island - not one! MR. DOODY: Do you want the letters? MR, NEARY: Yes, Sir, I want the letters tabled, The Hon. Leader of the Opposition already asked to have the letters tabled, The Honourable Premier has not seen fit to table the letters, MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: I will have them sent to you personally, Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to have them. Mr.

Speaker, these letters if they are around and I have very grave doubts as to whether they are around or not, if so the Honourable Premier woµld have tabled them. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Were solicited, Sir. They were procured by the honourable Junior Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR, DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR, DOODY: MR.

NEARY: You do not want to be associated with Harbour Main, I am very proud to be associated with Harbour Main, You are going a great way about it, I have Harbour Main blood in me, You are going to have more tf you keep this up, Maybe that is where I get my Irish temper. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, that is where I get my Irish temper. 7850

December 9, 1974 Tape no. 1996 Page 3 MR, DOODY: It will be spreading from one end of Harbour Main to the other if you keep this up. MR. NEARY: There was not one person, Sir, in the head of the bay who wanted to return to the old District of Harbour Main-Bell Island, not one. Any objections to the report of the royal commission were solicited, procured by the honourable pickel-barrelled member for Harbour Main. MR. DOODY: Mr. Spealter, am I supposed to put up with that kind of abuse, excuse the expression, from the honourable member. Is this parliamentary? ls this allowed? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker MR.

DOODY: Sir, I am trying to contain myself. It is not easy. I have been provoked, honestly. MR, SPEAKER (Mr.Dunphy) Yes, it is a point of order. I think the honourable gentleman from Bell Island is being unparliamentary when he refers to the Member for Harbour Main in using that name. Re is an honourable member and he will be referred to as such. I would ask you to retract that phrase that you used in reference to the Member for Harbour Main. MR. NEARY: If Your Honour wants me to take it back, I will take it back. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that the royal coumission took into account, Sir, when they were dividing up the boundaries, that Newfoundland 7851

December 9, 1974 Tape 1997 IB-1 has the second lowest average per capita income in the whole of Canada. The average per capita income in Newfoundland, Sir, is $2,464.00 as compared to !lova Scotia, $2,991; Prince Edward Island, $2,442. Incidentally, Sir, Prince Edward Island has the lowest average per capita income. We are outdone only by little old Prince Edward Island. New !lrunswick, $2,793; Newfoundland, Sir, has the lowest personal per capita income in the whole of Canada.

The government, Sir, when they wrote the terms of reference for t11P. royal commission, not even taking this into consideration, not taking it into account, asked the comnission to increase the burden on tbP. taxpayers of this province of running the House of Assembly by 21.4 per cent, to increase the cost of running the House of Asse111bly, Sir, by 21.4 per cent. I am sure , 1-lr. S'!)eaker, that the royal commission took into account the members ' basic remuneration that I mentioned the other day when we discovered that Newfoundland was the second highest in Canada.

We are paying our MllA' s, Sir, the second highest basic remuneration in the whole of Canada. AN HONfJURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Who said no? --- ---- ~~NOURABLE 'MEMBER; Wrong. :.fR. NEARY: Wrong? It is right, Sir. 'lr. Speaker, I am sure that the royal conunission took a look at the leghllature membership right across Canada, took a look at what the other provinces were doing in the way of redistribution. I am sure that they took a look at the number of taxpayers and the number of voters that were in each constituency in the other nine provinces of Canada. Takinf. all this into account , Mr.

Speaker, after considering all this and spending many sleepless niyhts, many months of research, after spending weeks and weeks going around the province holding public hearings and so forth, they finally produced, Hr. Speaker, what they considered to be a realistic electoral map for Newfoundland. They submitted their recommendations to the government. Everyone, l-lr. Speaker, but everyone in this province, including 705l

:. December 9 , 1974 Tape 1997 I might say, a number of honourable gentlemen who are sitting on the government benches at the present time, everyone felt in their TB-2 hearts that the recommendation of the Higgins Commission would be accepted without a change, without amendment, it would be accepted by the govermnent. Nr.

Speaker, do you know the other day I w:ie talking to a minister sitting on the opposite side of the House, Sir, and his reaction to redistribution was he said, "Ah, it will only be a nine day wonder." He said, "You will add another half million onto the expenses of running the House of Assembly and it will only be another nine day wonder." ~l HOt!OURABLE NEWIER: Who said that? --- AN HONOURABLE ~!EMBER: No. MR:. NEARY: Yes, Sir. Do you want me to name him? AN HCNOURABLE MBIBER: A minister of the crown1 HR. NEARY: A minister of the crown. I will name him if you want me to.

He was just yawning over there a few minutes ago. "Ah. it will only be a nine day wonder." He said, XR. DODD'(:_ It is a wonder he is not asleep or either one of us. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I hope on this amendment that men of principle on the BOVernment benches, that honourable gentlemen who have said out­ side of this House, "Oh, it could be forty-six 1 it. could be forty-nine., it could he fifty-one or it could be fifty-six, I hope that 7853

December 9, 1974, Tape 1998, Page 1 -- apb everybody,· all memhers of the House will participate in the debate. I hol'e that. I hope it," Well all members have not participated in the debate, so far, including that honourable gentleman - MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: - · ·---- Sit down and give us a chance, Who was so wishy-washy. If you would get that stick out of your hand, someone - ~-- _N_E_ARY: What is wrong, Mr. Speaker? What is wrong with the honourable members on the other side they are not speaking out in this debate? MR. ROBERTS: Maybe they have been ordered. MR.

NEARY: Have they been ordered by the honourable the Premier? MR. MURPHY: For the same reason you did not speak out in 1962. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I came into this honourable House in 1962 --· ----- and they have not been able to keep me quiet since. Mr. Speaker, when I sat for six years, Sir, when I sat for six years as a private member on the government side of the Rouse I was the most vocal over there. :r:!ll, __ S!'_E_~~_(_s_t~ Order please! Order -please! MR.~MURPHY: Vocal? Indeed. Yes master. No master. Yes master. MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

While the honourable member has said his piece, I presume he is going to deal with matters that are relevant now. I must sav he has had some assistance in being drawn into the irrelevancies. I:!R.·. _)ll_E_ARY: You know, Mr. Speaker, it is a funny thin?,. When I get up to sneak in this House thev all get irritable and jumpy over there. AN HON . MEMBER: Cannot take it. __ .. .. _ ·-- - MR. NEARY: They are half asleep until I get on my feet and then they all come back to life. They get the 1itters. They do not know who is going to get mowed down next.

Well, Sir, MR. -~ODY: The people felt the same in England during the Blitz, they did not know who was going to get clobbered next. We have to be nervous. 7B54

December 9, 1974, Tape 1998, Page 2 -- apb MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I hope on this amendment, I hope, that all those members who claim outside of this honourable House, Sir, that they are doing so much in this honourable House to help the ordinary people of this province, I hope that they will have the courage of their convictions and stand in their places in this honourable House and lash out on this amendment. Speak out. Do not be cowards. Do not be silenced by the honourable t