May 17,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIV No.

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The Chair would like to take this opportunity today to

welcome sixty students, ages fifteen to seventeen years. These are students from

all across Canada. They are here with Encounters with Newfoundland and Labrador,

and are accompanied by their director, Denis Labossiere.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon,. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise to announce that today, May 17, 1999,

has been proclaimed as Municipal Government Awareness Day throughout

Newfoundland and Labrador. The theme selected for this special day is most

appropriate: Dedicated People Working For you.

Today is the day designated to highlight the important role

of municipal government. It encourages people to participate more fully in

municipal government affairs and to involve themselves in activities which will

increase pride in their municipalities. It is designed to recognize the efforts

of mayors, councillors and municipal administrators who work diligently on

behalf of communities in the Province and it raises awareness of the cost and

value of services provided by municipal councils.

The Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, the

Federation of Municipalities, and the Association of Municipal Administrators

are mutually supportive of this initiative. I have been pleased and encouraged

by the cooperation between these partners on major recent initiatives such as

the review and the development of the New Municipalities Act, the review of the

Urban and Rural Planning Act, and the development of guidelines for the

Multi-Year Capital Works Program.

In conclusion, I want to say that the provincial government

is committed to the principles of local governance. It is my hope that the two

levels of government will continue to work together to build on a strong

relationship with respect to municipal affairs to the benefit of all residents

of the Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, it is about time. After ten years, this Administration

are finally starting to give some credit to the municipalities in the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I would like to say that after ten years, a short statement

trying to recognize the mayors, councillors and municipal administrators, talk

is cheap.

The government, this Administration, has cut the

municipalities in this Province by 50 per cent in their municipal operating

grants over the past five years. I say to the minister: Why not start

reinstating some of the money taken from the mayors and councils across this

Province, so they can do the job they were elected to do?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the minister for an advance copy of his

Ministerial Statement. I, too, want to rise and pay tribute to the many people

around the Province who give freely of their time to perform duties that are

necessary in the communities around.

It takes a strong commitment from the people to become

involved in this. They are oftentimes operating under very adverse conditions,

particularly in light of the cutbacks in their funding. They are the people who

are closest to the citizens, and many times they are the ones who take the flack

for being unable to deliver what the residents of each community need. I think

they are to be commended in operating in adverse conditions such as they are.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, May 17 to May 22, 1999, is

North American Occupational Safety and Health Week in Canada, the United States

and Mexico. This year's theme, "Occupational Safety and Health: It's Everybody's

Business" recognizes the importance and absolute necessity of everyone doing

their part to prevent workplace illness or injury.

On Wednesday, May 12, 1999, I presented this year's

Occupational Health and Safety Recognition Awards at a ceremony held in St.

John's at the Fluvarium. These awards are an initiative of the Department of

Environment and Labour and Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission.

Mr. Speaker, this year's nominations displayed superb

attention to the importance of workplace health and safety. The Award of Merit

was presented to Mr. Ralph Martin of Newfoundland Power for his role in saving

the life of an eleven-year-old girl who was drowning.

The Volunteer Appreciation Award was given to Mr. Michael

Dormody of Richmont Mines, Baie Verte, for outstanding commitment to health and

safety in the workplace.

The Innovative Safety Solution Award was presented to Arua

Ralhan and Catherine Waugh of the Health Care Corporation of St. John's for

their role in developing a device to assist in moving and lifting patients in

hospital beds.

The Outstanding Safety Committee or Worker Representative

Award went to the workplace health and safety committee of the Iron Ore Company

of Canada.

The Health and Safety Program Award was given to Penny

Construction for their commitment in making health and safety a priority in the

workplace.

The Minister's Award, presented to a company that has

demonstrated over time an improved safety record, enhanced product quality,

improved training courses and overall company success went to Western

Construction of Stephenville Crossing.

Mr. Speaker, and hon. members of the House, I ask you to join

with me in congratulating the winners of this year's award for their hard work

and dedication to workplace health and safety in our Province.

The above mentioned winners are taking action to create an

ongoing "safety culture" in our provincial workplaces. I invite all employers

and employees to continue to work with each other and government to achieve a

safer, healthier and more productive workplace this year and in years to come.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join with the minister in recognizing the

recipients of the health and safety awards throughout the Province. As I said

just a few short weeks ago when we spoke in the House during the day of mourning

for those who have lost their lives in the workplace, we all have to be vigilant

in this Province and in all places of work on making safety a number one

priority. Nothing can replace somebody's life to the family and children of that

person when they lose their life through meaningless needs because of a lack of

safety in the workplace.

I would join with the minister today in asking everybody in

the Province to pay more attention and be more vigilant when it comes to

occupational health and safety.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, thanks to the minister for the advance copy. I

congratulate the recipients of the awards as well. I think it is also important

to remember, because most of this document, particularly talking about the

companies, mentions only the company. It does not mention the other parties that

are involved and the joint committees that are the labour movement and the

respective unions. I think it is important that their names and titles be

included in anything that goes out talking about health and safety.

We have to remember that it was not employers who gave

workers health and safety, it was workers who fought for it and who are

continuing to fight today. I think it is important to reflect their names in any

document that comes out pertaining to health and safety in the Province.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to speak to members of the House today

about the release of a very significant national report.

This past Friday, on May 14, I joined the Federal/Provincial

and Territorial Ministers responsible for Social Services in Quebec City to

release The National Child Benefit Progress Report: 1999. This report

demonstrates that over the past year the National Child Benefit has helped our

country make significant strides in addressing the needs and concerns of our

country's children.

As I am sure members of the House recall, initiatives for

Newfoundland and Labrador under the National Child Benefit were announced in the

1998 Budget. The implementation of these initiatives began in July 1998. With

this implementation the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, in partnership

report regularly to Canadians on its progress.

As we approach the one year anniversary of the National Child

Benefit's introduction, this report affirms the positive influence this

initiative has had on our social and economic national picture, especially for

our children.

The report shows that 2.5 million Canadian children in

low-income families have received an increase in income. For Newfoundland and

Labrador, the monthly average number of children receiving the NCB supplement is

estimated at over 51,000. In addition, parents and children in low-income

families have also received added benefits and services from a diverse range of

NCB programs, such as family resource centres, youth service networks and

improved daycare access. These programs have enabled parents who receive income

support to move into jobs while keeping important financial supports for their

children. Also, parents who are already working in low-income jobs now get the

support they need to stay employed.

During our meeting in Quebec City, ministers responsible for

social services also discussed plans for the next phase of the National Child

Benefit initiative, which is scheduled to begin in July 1999. I look forward to

sharing these initiatives when they are finalized.

In the meantime, I would like to invite everyone present

today to take the time to review the National Child Benefit Progress Report. I

assure you that the information in this report is important. This and future

reports will help Canadians decide what type of social programs work best for

families and children.

It gives me, along with the Government of Newfoundland and

Labrador, a feeling of great pride and accomplishment to be able to report to

members of the House and the people of the Province that initiatives like the

National Child Benefit are contributing to improve lives and better futures for

our children. As with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador's Strategic

Social Plan, we are continuing to confirm, through such assessments as the

Progress Report, that important partnerships between orders of government and

communities are not only good ideas, but they are ideas that produce positive

results.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for providing me with a copy of her

statement and for a copy of the National Child Benefit Progress Report. The

figures in it are very impressive. One that particularly stands out is the child

care subsidy program, $1,987,000, but I am wondering why children are still

falling through the cracks and why on a daily basis I get calls from people.

One in particular that I remember is about a little boy, and

I referenced this in the House of Assembly last week. He was approved by his

social worker, by his psychologist, for one-on-one daycare but it was turned

down by the department because there was not enough money. So while the monies

that are being put in here are obviously helping some people, there are still

children falling through the cracks that are caused by systemic fundamental

flaws. While I congratulate the minister on the work that has been done, I look

forward to all of the children in our Province being able to take advantage of

the programs that are announced.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank the minister for an advance copy of her

statement and a copy of the report. Obviously the expenditure of this large

think in this Province the fact that people on social assistance were permitted

to keep the benefit of the National Child Benefit - as the result of pressure

from the Opposition -, that is important because it helps increase the wages of

all people who are on low incomes, including those on social assistance.

There is a long way to go, Mr. Speaker, as I heard last

Thursday in Halifax at the House of Commons subcommittee studying family

incomes. We need more of this on a universal basis to ensure that families with

children in this country are not suffering and the children have poor -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - outcomes as a result of those harsh

incomes.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It was my pleasure to attend a meeting in Ottawa on May 14

with the Council of Ministers Responsible for Transportation and Highway Safety,

and I thought I would take a moment to inform hon. members of the important

initiatives discussed, particulary as they relate to the Province.

The major topic was the need for a partnership of the

provinces and territories with the federal government on a long-term,

sustainable highway financing program. Along with provincial counterparts, I

endeavoured to impress upon the federal government that a National Highway

Program is urgently required. It is required if we are to preserve the current

infrastructure; to help the growing economy support social programs; to improve

domestic productivity; as well as to enhance international competitiveness.

I informed Mr. Collenette that the Government of Newfoundland

and Labrador fully supports a National Highway Program. I advised him that there

are a number of highway projects that are vital to the economy of our Province

including the completion of the Trans-Labrador Highway, further upgrading of the

Trans-Canada Highway in our Province, and the rehabilitation of many of our

regional trunk highways.

I am pleased to say that the majority of ministers called for

the Trans-Canada Highway to be free from road tolls. I went to great lengths to

stress that tolls on highways in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are having a

negative impact and affect on businesses and tourism for our Province and that

we want them discontinued.

I was also happy to inform the federal minister that the

provincial transportation system for Newfoundland and Labrador is essentially

all in compliance with the year 2000 requirements.

At a separate meeting with Mr. Collenette, I did have the

opportunity to discuss other serious concerns regarding the Gulf Ferry Service.

Mr. Kelvin Parsons, the MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile, which includes Port aux

Basques, joined me in these important discussions. I am pleased to say that Mr.

Collenette displayed a significant understanding of the concerns that have been

raised by all key stakeholders including independent truckers, Hospitality

Newfoundland and Labrador, the Board of Trade, the Chamber of Commerce and the

Town of Port aux Basques. Mr. Collenette indicated that Marine Atlantic has both

the obligation and mandate to meet traffic offering.

Mr. Collenette indicated that senior management at Marine

Atlantic has the opportunity to take appropriate decisions to ensure the

capacity during the summer of 1999 and for the foreseeable future is sufficient

to meet anticipated demands from truckers and tourists alike.

Our main concern is the need to replace the Atlantic

Freighter with a vessel capable of providing the appropriate capacity to

meet the traffic offering on the Gulf. We want a multi-purpose vessel that can

handle freight demands while also providing quality supplemental passenger

services.

Both Mr. Parsons and I informed Mr. Collenette that this

government looks forward to an immediate and proactive approach by the senior

management of Marine Atlantic to provide this essential additional capacity.

Together we advised the minister that the time for action is now and that we

cannot and will not tolerate the types of problems that we experienced in the

past. We want the federal government to live up the commitments that they made

under the Terms of Union.

I am delighted to be able to say that the Newfoundland and

Labrador Federation of Municipalities have now joined us in our campaign to

display our dissatisfaction with Gulf Ferry Services. The Federation represents

the majority of our municipalities and we do indeed appreciate the fact that

they, along with the many other stakeholders, are supportive of our attempts to

ensure that we get the type of services to which we are entitled.

I, along with my colleague the Minister of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation, will be writing a detailed letter to Mr. Collenette to apprise

him of our concerns and the action we expect Marine Atlantic to take in this

important matter. We will not rest until the issue is resolved to the

satisfaction of our stakeholders.

Mr. Collenette did make a commitment to have a new President

and CEO for Marine Atlantic in place by the end of the summer of this year.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: I will certainly make a few comments on this

rather long response. I just got a copy of the statement. As I got through the

typos I decided to make a few points on it.

First of all, the National Highway Program is desperately

needed in this Province right now, especially when it comes to the regional

trunk roads in this Province. They certainly need upgrading. I can think of in

my area the La Scie Highway, and I am sure every member in this House can think

of areas in their district that needs upgrading when it comes to regional trunk

roads. We look forward to that.

As far as the highway tolls, every minister should have been

in support of what the minister was talking about. We certainly do not agree

with tolls on the Trans-Canada Highway, and we hope you made that point strong

enough.

As I go through the statement I get to Marine Atlantic, which

are the points we raised last week. The minister says that he indicated Marine

Atlantic has both the obligation and mandate to meet traffic offering. It is a

right in this Province. As the minister pointed out last week, we have been

treated as second-class citizens in this Province since Confederation when it

comes to having the Marine Atlantic service to this Province. It is long

overdue.

Also, if he is going to meet the commitment by the federal

government - that is the point we have to raise here, and that is what the

minister has to keep hammering home. Yes, municipalities are on the side. Yes,

every group I can think off is on side. Yes, I can think of every Newfoundland

and Labradorians who says that it is long overdue. It is our Trans-Canada, it is

our link, it is in the Terms of Union, as the minister has pointed out already.

I am going to make sure, and this party will make sure, that

the groups we meet with in the coming weeks and months are going to make sure

the government doesn't drop the ball this time so we wait for another two, three

or four more years before we have another trip back to Ottawa to talk about the

marine services of this Province. We are going to make sure it is talked about

in the coming weeks and months, so we can see a decent service restored to this

Province that should have been there a long time ago.

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, what a difference a meeting makes, I say to the

minister and members opposite. Last week we were second-class citizens in

Confederation and we were not going to take it any more. He goes up and has a

meeting and it is all rosy and lightness.

We pointed out that we needed this and that, and we are going

to get a new president and CEO of Marine Atlantic. He did not say where he was

going to live, whether he was going to stay in Moncton like the last one, and he

did not say what he was going to do, but he said he had the power to take

action.

I think he praised the Federation of Municipalities for

coming on board his campaign. I think it was probably the other way around, that

the Federation of Municipalities and others in this Province are demanding

action. The government is starting to listen. I hope they do not forget about it

next week and go back to being second-class citizens again without a peep out of

them.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What a difference two weeks makes in this Legislature. Two

weeks ago on education, under questioning from the critic, the Member for

Harbour Main-Whitbourne, the Minister of Education stands in the House and says:

We are listening, but I want to be shown where the impact is on program cuts. It

is one thing to say it. What we are saying now is show us.

We spent the last two weeks meeting with school

administrators, school councils, parents, principals. Then I read in the weekend

paper: I may have said I am looking for examples, and if you want to bring them

forward by all means, but that does not necessarily mean I have to listen to

them.

Is it any wonder people are frustrated, concerned and upset,

because of the handing by this government and this minister with respect to

program cuts as it relates to teacher allotment? My question is this. Which is

it? Are you going to take into account and listen to the very people who you put

in place and enshrined in legislation under the new schools act, or are you

going to continue to ignore the reality that is facing this Province and this

government, particularly in rural Newfoundland, as it relates to the type of

programming we want to offer all of our children in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are listening very intently to representations that are

being made in all seriousness by the official representatives of the school

board and their chief staff members, being the directors.

For those who were in the Legislature and understood the full

context of the minister's statement, she certainly indicated that all of us on

this side have some difficulty in taking seriously the representations being

made at some of these public meetings in the appropriately called `road show,'

because it is a nice show but I do not know what it will accomplish.

It is difficult to take it seriously when the chief proponent

and speaker at the meeting in Port aux Basques is the vice-president of the PC

association and the campaign manager for the PC candidate in the last election.

In Stephenville, the chief proponent and speaker at the

public Progressive Conservative meeting, not a neutral forum organized by any

arm's length group and so on, was the past president of the teachers' union,

whose job it is to keep jobs for teachers at all expense.

In Corner Brook, one of the chief representatives at the

meeting was a person who just ran for the office of vice-president of the

Teachers' Association for Newfoundland and Labrador, whose job at every

opportunity is to try to save teacher jobs - regardless.

In Grand Falls-Windsor, as well again, one of the main people

who was speaking out on behalf of special needs students, a very important and

very interested parent but, in a meeting organized by the Progressive

Conservatives, one of the main people speaking out - aside from my brother,

again - was the president of the PC Association for Grand Falls-Buchans.

Everybody on this side has quite a bit of difficulty in terms

of taking seriously those representations. We will take completely seriously the

representations made to the Ministry of Education by the official school board

representatives, by the directors of education, by the administrators when they

deal with the officials in the Department of Education; and, quite frankly,

while it may be a nice road show, we hope you enjoy the road show because we

will not be paying an awful lot of attention -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to finish his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - to the representations made by politically

charged partisan representations.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Parents, teachers, school councils,

administrators, executive directors and board officials that met with, as the

minister put it, the road show - at least the road show is better than no show,

I say to the minister; no show on behalf of this government when it is

confronted with the reality, when it is confronted with facts. On the one hand,

they ask for it. When it is given to them, what is the response? Attack the

messenger; attack those who took the time to show up to public meetings; attack

those who took the time to stand up for the children in this Province. That is

the minister's response, and it is not type of response that will fly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask the minister this: In your

former life as Minister of Education, in you former role as Minister of

Education, one of the major selling points, Sir, that you took on your road show

across the Province at that time for school reform was the establishment of

school councils which would have a greater say in the education system,

particularly since these school councils are made up of local teachers, parents,

and even student representatives.

Minister, why are you saying now that the very people that

you put in place, that one of the very pillars of reform that you brought across

the Province on your road show to sell, that important piece of legislation, why

is it now so convenient for you and your government to say: What they have to

say really does not matter. Why, Minister?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate an opportunity again maybe to educate the Leader

of the Opposition as to the role of the school councils, which is critically

important. School councils, by legislation passed by everybody in this House of

Assembly, unanimous passage, are put in place because they know the local

circumstance probably better than any of us do, and they are designed to give

advice to the local school board - to the local school board.

I will repeat it one more time: To give advice to the local

school board, because the local school board is in charge of the allocation of

teachers to every school in Newfoundland and Labrador except for those that are

designated as Small Necessarily Existent Schools; and those schools, Mr.

Speaker, are staffed directly by the Ministry of Education.

We are not hearing any complaints about schools that are

staffed directly under the control of the Ministry of Education. We are hearing

complaints about choices that are being made with the teachers who are available

in the schools in which the staffing is decided by the local school board. So

the Ministry of Education is asking the local school board, through its director

of education, its chief staff person, to explain the choices that have been made

locally to the government through the Department of Education so we can have a

full understanding as to whether they had other choices or not that they could

have considered. Because, if they want the government to act - and this is the

convenience for the Opposition. They passed a piece of legislation unanimously

with everybody in the Legislature in which they acknowledged that the right

people to do assignments of teachers, the right people to make those choices,

are the locally elected school boards, but when anybody in any part of the

Province does not like a decision made by other elected officials, being the

school boards, the Opposition says: Oh, my, isn't that shocking?

The Minister of Education should have done that when they

passed a piece of legislation saying that the school boards have the right, the

responsibility and the obligation to do it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: One final point with respect to the question,

Mr. Speaker. The school councils for Newfoundland and Labrador have a provincial

body which meets regularly with the Minister of Education. That is the contact

between school councils and the Ministry of Education. I am sure that the Leader

of the Opposition - in his great dream of some day maybe ever becoming the

Premier of the Province - would not suggest that any Minister of Education or

Premier of the Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: - would be in a position ever to meet with a

school council from almost 400 individual schools.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: They are there to advise the school boards,

the school boards meet with the department -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - and the provincial representatives meet

with the department as well.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Minister, if you want to hear from people,

first of all you have to sit down, close your mouth, open your ears and listen.

This government has not been able to do that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Now, I am going to take the minister at

face value. I am going to take his questions of me at face value and I will ask

him this question: Prior to the announcement of the Budget, prior to teacher

allotments being made, District 5 met with your government and said that if you

cut more than twelve teachers it will have a severe and adverse impact on

programming.

Government was told up front then, if you acknowledge - if we

take from what he is saying that we meet with the appropriate officials, the

school boards themselves, then why was it, Minister, that in District 5 - when,

according to your definition of who you should be talking to - the board met

with government, told them that if you cut more than twelve teachers there would

be a serious, adverse and negative impact on programming, why was it that you

and your government went ahead anyway and cut thirty in that school board?

Answer that question!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not aware of the details of the meeting that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: You are not suggesting now that I was at the

meeting? I have not been the Minister of Education for some months.

I am not aware again, Mr. Speaker, of the details of such a

meeting and whether or not that proposition was actually put forward, but I can

tell you quite clearly that even if it was, one of the things that would have

happened - which is what is happening now - is that the minister, through

officials in the department, would have then gone out and said: Okay, based on

you making that representation, what plans have you made? Are there other

consolidations that you might be considering or could consider? Have you looked

at a full range of options for the board? Or are you just saying to us, in one

meeting with the Department of Education, that if you leave everything the way

it is now, and if you take these teachers, this could happen? Are there other

options?

The exploration that is occurring now is, officials of the

Department of Education, meeting with the school boards, the officials that they

want to assign to it, one on one, identifying and making sure that every

conceivable option that was available to the school boards has been explored,

has been considered by the boards and has been deemed to be possible or not

possible to accomplish for the next school year. If, at the end of that whole

consultation, the minister and the department is convinced that what was just

said, or some version of that, will occur, then the minister has already said

that there will be some corrective measures taken.

Again, Mr. Speaker, there is a real consultation going on

between the Department of Education and the school boards, and there is another

road show going on for the political `aggrandizement' of the members of the

Opposition.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I will give another example

and I will use his definition of the appropriate people to speak to with respect

to programming cuts.

District 3: The director of District 3 told this government,

again prior to the budgetary process - so your argument holds no water,

Minister, none whatsoever - and told the department that if cuts went ahead to

the extent that were being proposed, it would have a severe and adverse impact

on programming in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly in District 3.

The question that you must answer, because you did not answer

the last one so I will give you an opportunity to answer this one: Why was it

that you ignored their advice - according to your definition, the appropriate

people - and went ahead and cut teachers to the point where programs would have

to be axed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition can try as he might to suggest

that there are things that are going to happen that are extremely detrimental to

the education system. They will not happen because if there are instances

identified through the consultation that is occurring legitimately between the

Department of Education and the school boards, any corrective measures to make

sure that dire negative impacts do not occur will be taken.

The fact of the matter is again that the representations

generally made - and I was not at either of the meetings that he referenced had

occurred, but most likely I can surmise because they were similar to

representations made the year before when I was the Minister of Education -

boards did come to us and say: If the government proceeds with the existing

formulas, and if the government reduces the teachers that the formulas - because

they know what the formulas are and they could project what the loses would be

in their districts - then these impacts would occur.

What, in fact, the government did was to again, for the

second year in a row, fundamentally throw out the formulas and reinstate over

one-half of the teaching units that the school boards themselves would have been

projecting that they were likely to lose. If they were in, prior to the budget,

saying, "You cannot take out these teachers", they would have been guesstimating

on the only information they had, that there would have been 440 or 450 teachers

being pulled out of the classrooms of Newfoundland and Labrador. That did not

happen. Over 200 were reinstated.

Many of the boards who, two or three months ago, prior to the

budget, would have been saying this might happen, are now very thankfully, like

the board in St. John's, saying, that is not going to happen; we are going to

have improved program options.

We might hear the case where there are some reductions which

would be corrected by the department, but we are not hearing at the road show

examples of where last year, for the first time in history, some schools had

music programs that they had never had, access to additional programs that they

had never had in history -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - and likely to happen again this year coming

up, except in a few instances that will be corrected by the Department of

Education.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: What a difference two weeks makes. Two

weeks ago in this House while you were sitting here, I say to the minister, the

Minister of Education stood and said about teacher allotments: that if it is

happening, it is certainly not because of any direction this government is

taking, referencing cuts to programs.

It is obvious today that the former Education Minister, as

well as the Education Minister in government, are completely unaware of the

realities throughout the Province. Parents are upset. Education directors have

advised government - whether you would like to spin out there that they have not

- they have advised you and your government prior to the budget being brought

down in this House.

All you are going through is a public relations exercise to

say that we are now consulting. The horse has left the barn, Minister; he is

out. The reality is that you were consulted, you were given the information, and

you ignored it.

Let me ask you this: In view of the fact, would it not be

advisable and would it not be in the best interest of everybody in this

Province, that you immediately set up a task force chaired by somebody like Dr.

Leslie Harris, independent, arm's length, to report back to this House within a

thirty-day period that would clearly indicate in a public way, not just to

Cabinet but for all of us to see, what the impact of teacher allocation this

year will have on programs? Would that not be the best and most appropriate way

to restore some public confidence in your misadministration and mismanagement of

the secondary school system in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What a difference two weeks makes. I agree that two weeks ago

the solution, as the Official Opposition saw it, to restore public confidence

was to establish a road show.

I think that we are seeing now - we hope they are enjoying

the road show and instilling great confidence in the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador, out there telling them what they would do if they were the government.

This particular government can very proudly stand on its

record that for the second year in a row we have ignored the formulas that the

Opposition put in place when they were the government. We have reinstated over

200 additional units last year. We have reinstated over 200 additional units

again this year. There has been a commitment given that in the meaningful

discussions that will occur, the non-political discussions, the absolutely

non-political discussions that will occur between the Department of Education

which has a responsibility, and the directors of education for the school boards

who have a responsibility, that if there are some problems they will be

corrected. You cannot have any better commitment than that, and that is exactly

the commitment the government has given.

In the meantime, I expect that next the Opposition might be

up like they were last year saying: Regardless of the fact that the student

population has changed from 170,000 down to less than 95,000, maybe we should

have a moratorium on teacher losses and that we should have the same number of

teachers every single year regardless; if 50,000 students leave, you should not

take any teachers out of the system.

It is a difficult issue. It is going through what has become

a bit of the spring ritual of sorting it out with school boards and with the

department. It will be sorted out with the best interest of the students and

their programming in mind. We do not see any particular reason to try to give

creditability to a totally credible process between officials of the department

and officials of the school board.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get to answer.

MR. GRIMES: Unless he is suggesting that we should not

believe what we are being told by the directors of education, then we fully

believe what they will tell us. We will take the necessary corrective measures.

We do not see a need for another show to go ahead in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a final

supplementary.

Thanks be to God, at least some members in this Legislature

are exercising some leadership to give the public of this Province an

opportunity, in a public way, to talk about what is happening particularly in

rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: I am not suggesting a moratorium; that is

not what I am suggesting at all. In view of the fact that in the last several

weeks this government has become so fond of our policy manual in terms of

mimicking tax cuts, talking about accountability, here is what I am suggesting

to the minister: On page 10, with respect to secondary education, we recommended

during the provincial election that we would, if we were government, implement a

small schools policy that would be sensitive to the needs of rural Newfoundland

and Labrador, recognizing the reality of what is taking place.

If the minister is looking for a suggestion, go to page 10 -

you have looked at other pages - and implement what we told you then: a small

schools policy that would look at directly -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

- attacking the problem that is facing, in particular, the

schools in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Is that the type of commitment this

government is prepared to make today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was pleased, when I did scan the document briefly for some

amusing late nighttime reading during the last election, that I saw that they

did manage to take a policy on small schools and try to put into their platform

an issue that this government dealt with a year ago.

In fact, for the first time in the history of the Province,

in the school year which is now drawing close to completion, there are, by law,

Small Necessarily Existent Schools in this Province in which the school boards

have no flexibility to remove any teachers at any point in time. By law, they

are entitled to an absolute guarantee to a program that at the secondary level

will make sure that every student that graduates in Newfoundland and Labrador

meets the requirements for post-secondary entrance.

All of those things, not at discretion, not regulation, not

policy, but by law in the Schools Act. It was nice to see that the Opposition

thought it was such a good idea that they put it in their platform, that they

would also do it since it was already the law.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, we are not interested in the

shows and the games. We are taking very seriously a discussion between the

directors of education - who we believe have total creditability - the

Department of Education, and any areas where there are difficulties will be

addressed. We do not need more road shows to deal with this very serious issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are to the Minister of Finance. Last week, both

the Minister of Finance and the Premier raised the issue of provincial taxation

and gave some wishy-washy statements of general intent or, some might say, a

statement that mirrored the PC policies he so vehemently decried in the election

just a few months ago.

Of course we were not surprised at that because we believe

these policies would be good for Newfoundland and Labrador. We are confident, I

say to the minister, even if it makes a copycat out of yourself and the Premier.

Your statements last week, of course, called for a

comprehensive review of taxation. We were wondering if you can be a little more

definitive on this particular commitment than your commitment to the nurses of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to ask the minister why you will not make commitments

on the reduction of personal income tax more definitive, why you are not more

specific, and why that commitment was not included in the March Budget?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Justice.

MR. DICKS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The reason we want to study

it a little bit is that we do not want to make a rather foolish commitment, as

did the Opposition party to refuse taxes and lose $800 million in the process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The commitments in this booklet were worth $340 million, and

as usual inflation sets in. I say to the minister that we know that last week's

statements by the minister and the Premier -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get on with his question.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We know last week's statements were designed to deflect

attention away from the education issues and that obviously did not work. In

fact, by the end of the week the Premier was saying: I might resign, I might

leave, and all that kind of thing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to

his question.

MR. H. HODDER: That did not work either because the issue

on education is still there. I ask the minister: Will he today tell the House

how long it is going to take to reduce our personal income taxes to the Canadian

average, and how long it would take before we in this Province on personal

income taxes are on a par with other provinces in Atlantic Canada?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Justice.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The comments last week were not meant to deflect attention

from the education discussions but to focus them. It is very easy for members

opposite to advocate money for health care, money for education, but frankly,

there are choices to be made. If you give everybody everything they want then

you simply will not be able to move to a point where you can reduce taxes.

If there is one area that this Province is clearly falling

behind in, and there are very few that we are not advancing, it is in the area

of tax reductions. For many years I have said in this House, I have said in our

Estimates hearings, that we have to move to the point of tax reductions. We have

taken it on the corporate sector, we have taken it on the payroll sector, and we

intend to take it on the personal income tax side.

We intend to do, as I said in the response to his first

question, this in a thorough way after proper analysis, and not in the heat and

confusion of a campaign that is going wrong, that is being lost, to trot out an

ill-conceived, poorly thought out tax reduction that the Province simply cannot

afford. What we will do we will do in a measured and thoughtful way, and I

expect we will do it at about the time of the next budget.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that personal income tax is but one

area of taxation where Newfoundland and Labrador has the highest taxation rates

in Canada. I want to ask the minister: Is he considering reducing taxes in other

areas? For example, the gasoline taxes, the elimination of the very regressive

payroll taxes, et cetera. I want to ask the minister: When can we expect to have

some action on the payroll tax and on the other high taxes like the gasoline

tax?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Justice.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Province has been very active in the whole area of tax

policy. As hon. members well know, we took the initiative in rationalizing the

Province's retail sales taxes, and the Speaker knows they are currently at the

national rate. We intend to do the same thing in other areas. We have taken

measures on the payroll tax. All in good time, and all when the economy can

afford it, because, without making willy-nilly promises, what we have to do is

ensure that there is a balance between the services people want and expect and

are prepared to pay for, and the taxes that will raise revenue to do so.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and

Community Services. In a report entitled, Shifting the Focus: Community

Discussions on Child Sexual Abuse, published by the Community Services Council

in February 1997, statistics received from the then-Department of Social

Services showed that the total incidents of child abuse for 1995-1996 were

4,810. Of this amount, 896 were sexual abuse, and of those 896 incidents, 257

occurred within the immediate families.

Can the minister please tell the House today: What are the

statistics for the subsequent years and what are the statistics today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and

Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, with respect to those

specific statistics, I would have to get them. As the member knows, most of

these cases are reported to the police as opposed to my department. The ones I

am made aware of are the ones that are generally to children who are under the

care of my department. With respect to those made to the RNC or the RCMP, I do

not have a record of those reported cases.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that these statistics came out of the

then-Department of Social Services which I think is now - the Community Services

part of that is in the minister's department. I suggest that the minister should

have a copy of those statistics.

One of the major findings of this report is that children

continue to be at risk of sexual abuse, and when abuse is reported they receive

intermittent and inconsistent help. Will the minister now tell this House what

she has done to improve the situation?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and

Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted to answer the question, because unlike the

people opposite who were living with a piece of legislation that was twenty-five

years old, this government put forward a new piece of legislation last fall

entitled the Child, Youth and Family Services Act that is very much focused on

prevention and early intervention.

I always remember my first day in the Department of Social

Services, when the outgoing deputy - who now works as a policy analyst for the

PC Party - said to me how concerned he was about the state of children in this

Province, and if there was one area he had failed in, it was in trying to do

something about child care and child welfare.

So I am very delighted to say that my new deputy at that

time, as well as myself, began, right away, immediately, a three-year

undertaking to finally, after twenty-five years, change the child welfare

legislation in this Province, which we put in place last fall. We are very proud

of it. It is one that is focused on our Strategic Social Plan, one that is

focused on prevention and early intervention. We now lead the country in our

legislation, not only in that component but in our social audit. So we are very

proud and pleased to have moved in such a progressive way, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have two comments: One is that the mess you inherited was

from your own government, and if you are so concerned, why don't you have the

statistics that came from the Department of Social Services, which you

inherited, which is your department?

As we know, social workers are burning out and the turnover

from case to case is alarming. It results in no continuity for children and

their families. What has the minister done to date, and what are her plans to

address this problem in the future? In other words, what is the caseload of a

social worker in child protection?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and

Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I never at any point said - and I think it is important for

the record - that I would not put forward the information on the statistics. I

said that we do not have all of the information that were referred to all the

various parties, namely the RNC and the RCMP. I have no difficulty in

identifying and reporting, as the member already knows, any statistics within my

department, but I am not aware of the number of cases that are reported to the

RCMP nor the RNC.

With respect to workload, the caseload particularly, the

member opposite knows - if she has spoken to any social workers recently, and I

am sure she has - we all know it is not the number of cases that is important.

It is the quality and quantity of that particular case. Sometimes we have a

social worker with only two or three cases, and it is more time consuming than

some that have a caseload of twenty. It would depend on the in-depth nature of

the particular case.

Some of the children that I know are under care and, at the

outset, require a lot more in-depth care, particularly as we move to a focus of

prevention and early intervention from one of the past practice of apprehension.

It depends on, as I said, the in-depth caseload as opposed to strict numbers.

Any social worker out there would totally agree with the whole content and

quality of the workload as opposed to numbers only, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that tomorrow - and

I believe tomorrow is going to be now - I shall move that a further estimate of

expenditure related to a contingency reserve in the amount of $30 million be

referred to the Committee of Supply.

I just spoke to both parties opposite and I think we are

ready to put that question, by leave, immediately.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question?

All those in favour of the motion, `aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Against.

I declare the motion carried.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I just want to advise the Opposition that

Wednesday is Private Members' Day for us, and that under Notices of Motion - we

have done this before - we will be moving a motion a little later on this

afternoon to give notice of that motion for Wednesday.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition to the House of Assembly.

The petition reads:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of

Newfoundland, in legislative session convened, the petition of the undersigned

residents of Newfoundland;

WHEREAS Route 235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista has not been

upgraded since it was paved approximately twenty-five years ago; and

WHEREAS this

section of Route 235 is in such a terrible

condition that vehicles are being damaged, including the school buses serving

school in the area, and schoolchildren are finding their daily trips over the

road very difficult;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador to upgrade and pave the five kilometres of Route 235

from Birchy Cove to Bonavista.

Mr. Speaker, this is another petition being brought forward

in support of the students attending Matthew Elementary and Discovery

Collegiate. It is a petition in support of public meetings that the parents have

held in Newmans Cove with representation from Bonavista, Upper Amherst Cove,

Middle Amherst Cove, Lower Amherst Cove, Birchy Cove, and Newmans Cove to bring

forward their concerns on the condition and state of this

section of roadway

leading from Birchy Cove to Bonavista.

This particular roadway measures approximately five

kilometres. Two-and-one-half kilometres of this roadway is in a terrible shape.

What the residents are asking is for the government to look at upgrading and

paving this particular

section of Route 235. Their plea is that if there is not

enough money to upgrade the whole

section of the five kilometres, then maybe the

worst two-and-one-half kilometres going around the pond - a pond known as Seal

Cove Pond - could probably be upgraded, paved and brought to an acceptable

standard for today's transportation.

Those people in Upper Amherst Cove, Middle Amherst Cove,

Birchy Cove, and Newmans Cove have given up their schools in the past. They have

agreed for their students to be transported by bus over this

section of roadway,

five days a week, in the morning and back again in the evening. All they are

asking for is a simple road so that their children might be able to travel with

some degree of comfort and safety.

I have driven over the road many times myself. The petition

is real, the concern is real. The people who are presenting the petitions are

responsible. They do not want to go out and block that particular

section of

roadway. They do not want to interfere with traffic travelling to Bonavista, for

people going to work, students going to school, transport trucks delivering

goods. They do not want to interfere and stop anybody. What they have decided to

do is that they would present petitions to the House, that I would present on

their behalf, and they would hand out letters to get people to support them on

their way to and from Bonavista.

I say to the minister that it is shameful when you have to

come out and beg today to have a

section of roadway upgraded so students can

travel to and from school with some degree of safety and comfort. It is terrible

and degrading to have to do it.

They are not asking that the roadway be lighted. They are not

asking that you put in sidewalks so that they might go out and walk with some

degree of safety. All they are asking for is a simple upgrading of

two-and-one-half kilometres of a double-lane highway going north and south, two

lanes, so that the students might be able to travel with some degree of safety,

some degree of comfort, in their fourteen-year-old school buses, some of them,

to get to and from school.

I have had representation from the trucking companies that

travel this particular route on a daily basis. In fact, the bus operators have

called and said: Would you see if you can do something with that

section of

roadway? We cannot keep the springs in our bus. We cannot keep the repairs done

to our bus.

I can understand what the students are facing. I can

understand what the students are going through by having to sit on that bus

every day and travel those five kilometres.

If you go out to the communities of Upper Amherst Cove,

Newmans Cove and Birchy Cove, you will find that the pavement through their

communities have deteriorated to a condition that it should have been replaced

fifteen years ago.

The people are saying that we are willing to put up with the

bad roads through our community. We are willing to put up with having to contend

with potholes, and the sides of the pavement broken away. We are willing to put

up with all that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - as long as we could have a simple road

to drive over that is safe for our students on the main highway leading into

Bonavista. That is their plea. That is, hence, the reason for presenting this

petition.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 4. I move first reading.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Is there somebody else who wants to speak to

the petition? The Speaker called Orders of the Day.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair did not see anybody standing.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Go ahead?

Motion 4.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I have to get you straightened away on that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) stand in the way of a very

supportive constituent from the District of Kilbride.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: I am very seriously considering moving.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 4.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) let it be known for the public

record that I will be the first one to help.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will put it at the first opportunity.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Denturists Act", carried.

(Bill 10)

On motion, Bill 10 read a first time, ordered read a second

time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Order 2, Committee of Supply.

MR. SPEAKER: On motion, that the House resolve itself

into Committee of the Whole -

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, before you get to that, I want to

say to hon. gentlemen opposite that the continency reserve is now moved up into

the number of hours that we have available for those three heads. In other

words, if we had twelve hours for that head in committee here, that is now moved

up. It is not part of the concurrence debate; it is part of this debate. That is

the same as it has always been.

Mr. Speaker, Order 2.

MR. SPEAKER: On motion, that the House resolve itself

into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

CHAIR (Smith): The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a few questions for the President of Treasury Board,

under Executive Council. I see her waving over there. She is looking forward to

my questions, as she always does, as do ministers opposite.

On page 23, under Communications and Consultation, 2.5.01, it

says, "Appropriations provide for the promotion of public awareness of

Provincial Government programs, policies and services."

When I read that, I could not believe what I was reading. The

first thing that jumped to my mind, of course, were the nurses. Do we all

remember the day that the nurses went on strike? The very same day there was

full-page ad in the paper trying to say what the nurses were doing, the wrongs

of the nurses and what have you. In this very House of Assembly, on the same

day, and in the media that evening, the Premier was on talking about what a

shock it was that the nurses had gone on strike. Yet, the very day they went on

strike there was a big ad in the paper.

How much money was spent on those ads? Maybe $1,000 a crack,

$2,000 a crack. Day after day we saw those ads, big black and white letters on

the weekend paper. We are wondering if that money came out of this.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon? That is page 23, 2.5.01,

Communications and Consultation, the whole block. It says, "Appropriations

provide for the promotion of public awareness of Provincial Government programs,

policies and services."

I made a note, as I said earlier, in the campaign against the

nurses we had radio and print. Also, I was quite surprised on the weekend when I

heard that we have another campaign starting very soon. The Minister of Mines

and Energy is going to be headlong into this campaign. It is going to be

starting very soon, and we do not know how much money is going to be spent on

it, but we saw the Premier, and we heard him say that he has one big deal to

make and then his time is up. His political end is near - provincially.

What I remember during the election, an interviewer on CBC

Television, in the evening, put the question quite blank to the Premier: Will

you be around for the next election? What did he say? Yes, he would be, he would

be around for the next election. Now, we can see him going mid-summer, next

fall, next spring, certainly no longer than a year-and-a-half down the road. Who

are we going to see lined up?

We saw the Minister of Fisheries today - I had to make a

comment to him - saying that if you want to be Premier of the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador you are going to have to start acting like it; because

he is going to be the first one out the door. The Minister of Fisheries is going

to be the first one out the door. Then, right behind him - I should correct

myself here. The Minister of Fisheries is going to be the first one out the door

if he has the nerve to run. The last time we saw him calling a news conference

to say that he wasn't going to run. So, he may not be the first one out the

door. The first one out of the gate, I thought - but he may call an election.

The Minister of Mines and Energy has his eye on it. I thought

that he was the front-runner. It is going to cost this Province in the near

future. We will not see five years before an election. We will not see four

years before an election. We will be lucky if we see three years, maybe less

than three years, like the previous one.

The Minister of Mines and Energy is going to be out of the

gate. I thought he had a chance to take the leadership, but the way he treated

the nurses here in this House of Assembly, and the mess he has made out of the

education system, he is after hurting himself, dearly hurting himself.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, yourself, the Minister of Mines and

Energy.

The Minister of Finance - I am on this topic, Mr. Chairman,

because we are under revenues and how much money we are going to be spending. I

can see an election coming sooner rather than later. We have the Minister of

Finance -

AN HON. MEMBER: An election? We had an election a couple

of months ago.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know. We had the Premier two or

three months ago during the election saying he would be here for the next

election. So now we are going to see, in a year, fourteen months - as soon as he

can qualify for his provincial pension, he's gone, just like that. Another

fourteen or fifteen months and he is out of here, and then within a year after

that you will see an election.

(Inaudible) a new fellow come in, but I am going to get to

who is going to be the next premier. He is only going to be premier for less

than a year. The Minister of Mines and Energy is going to be in the race, the

Minister of Finance is going to be in the race. I thought the Minister of

Tourism would be but I am starting to have second thoughts on that. He will not

even be running. A number of ministers on that side will not even be running.

The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island, yes. I will get to the

backbenchers.

So we have the Minister of Mines and Energy and the Minister

of Finance. We have the Government House Leader. No, he will not have a chance,

not at all.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Not yet. I will get to that. I am getting

to the Minister of Health and the Minister of Education. They are forthcoming.

I thought the Minister of Health, up until three to five

months ago had a shot at the leadership, because we all knew that the present

Premier would not be around for the next election. I thought that she would have

a chance but she is after hurting herself with respect to health care in the

Province. It is a bad position to be in and she showed a lack of concern, I

suppose, or - what is the right word? Not sympathy, either. Compassion! That's

the word, a lack of compassion for the nurses in the Province. So she is after

hurting herself. She will not win it.

We have the Minister of Education who now has her head buried

in the sand with respect to education in the Province. The party on that side

will not even look at her. They will not look at her because they know she will

not have a chance to lead them to the gold ring. They are not going to have a

chance. So those is basically the ministers that would be involved after the

leadership.

I am not sure about the Minister of Human Resources. She may

have a chance. She probably might have a chance. The President of Treasury Board

is too new, not now. Now we have the backbenchers.

AN HON. MEMBER: Jack, we have lots of time.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, you don't. You have approximately a

year-and-a-half maximum to make your case to the people on that side of the

House.

Now we have the backbenchers, Mr. Chairman. So we have nobody

there yet who is going to lead this party to another victory, no one in the

ministers. We have the Member for Humber East who was on the radio the other day

contradicting the Minister of Education and the Premier. I don't think that

members on that side of the House would want an individual who sandbags the

Premier and who sandbags -

AN HON. MEMBER: Who did that?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Humber East. They do not

want him, they are not going to support him, so he is gone. We have the Member

for Bellevue who is up there, who really does not know if he is coming or going

with respect to certain things, certain roads in the Province. He got up and

presented a petition in this House the other day and he did such a bad job of it

that ever since then he has been up and down like a yo-yo trying to make up for

it. He is not going to be able to be counted on.

AN HON. MEMBER: I must say, he (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Who? I have to say, though, the other day

when he was up he was really passionate. He was. I was going to make a comment

about his health but I thought he would take it the wrong way. I had real

concerns. I really did have concerns about him. I did not agree with what he was

saying, but I am just talking about the way he said it. He had some passion.

I forgot about the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. The

Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island would love to be premier but I am

not sure he is going to win his seat the next time around. I do not think that

he is going to be in the contention for it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: If you were given to worry, I will say to

you not to worry about that.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was your majority?

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs is worrying about me winning. I will tell him, just in case

he doesn't know, I only won by as many votes as my opponent got, over 2,000. I

say he got a fair shot. I am going to work even harder -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Municipal Affairs,

what was yours, 200, 150 votes? Three hundred and fifty votes. Don't you worry

about me, worry about yourself, I say to the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs, and you should worry.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: You (inaudible). I just have to comment on

this. The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island said I was going around

Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove saying I was related to him. There is one family

down there who came to me and said: Jack, we know we have this relation in the

House of Assembly, he is Liberal, but you need not worry about him. We are

voting for you, the man, the Tory.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: They said: We see him once every ten years,

and we will not be supporting him.

Just think about this, Mr. Chairman. We have a situation

where we had an election three months ago. We had the Premier on CBC television

saying he is going to be there for the next election. The ink on the Budget is

not even dry and they are talking about taking our taxation policy and -

CHAIR (Oldford): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave.

CHAIR: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: They are taking our taxation policy right

out of our Blue Book, and now they are looking at the small school policies,

taken right out of our Blue Book. In the next election what is going to happen

is people are going to say: Listen here, what is going on in this Province

today? Everything that the PCs said they were going to do the Liberals are

doing, and everything the Liberals said they were going to do, they are not

doing, so we might as well vote for the Tories.

We will form the next government, no ifs, ands or buts about

it. It does not matter who they bring in. I was trying to figure out who would

be their white knight. Years ago they had a white knight, Mr. Jamieson. He lost.

In 1996 the white knight was Mr. Tobin, the present Premier. Now we are going to

ask: Who is going to be their white knight now? I do not see anybody out there,

do you? It is going to have to be someone from outside. I just went through that

crowd over there. No one there can lead them to a win in the next election. It

has to be somebody from outside. Who can it be? I honestly do not know. Will it

be the Member for Labrador, Mr. O'Brien? I do not think so. He is after opposing

the government. Will it be the federal member? What is his name?

AN HON. MEMBER: Gerry Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Will it be Gerry Byrne? I do not think so.

He is not related to me, thank God.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: One more minute what?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, is there?

It will not be Gerry Byrne, I will say to you. Who is it

going to be?

AN HON. MEMBER: George Baker.

MR. J. BYRNE: Will it be George Baker?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Now we are getting somewhere. Now we are

talking about him going into Cabinet. Are they trying to set him up, to give him

some profile, to show that he can be in agreement with his party, that he will

not buck his party all the time?

Is it going to be Mr. Baker? That leaves this fact. When the

Premier came back we saw members on that side - the Minister of Mines and Energy

backed off. We saw the Minister of Fisheries call a conference to say that he

did not have the nerve to run because of the white knight coming back. Will the

Ministers of Fisheries, Finance, Mines and Energy, Health and Human Resources be

afraid to run? Will they be afraid to run? They are going to be afraid to run.

They are not going to have the nerve.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Conception Bay East is out

of the picture already, Mr. Chairman.

We are in for another $3 million or $4 million - how much

does it cost to run an election? Three million dollars, $5 million?

AN HON. MEMBER: Three-and-one-half million dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: Three-and-one-half million dollars. This

will come out of the money that we are discussing now, under the Estimates here

with the Budget. This amazes me, I have to say. No wonder politicians are held

in such low esteem out there in the public. We saw the Premier of this Province

on CBC during the election, interviewed by Doug Letto, and he put the question

right to him: Will you be here for the next election? He said, yes. He looked

straight in his face and said yes, he would be here. I could not believe my

ears. No wonder -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Order, please!

MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: I have not recognized the Member for Bellevue, but

leave has been withdrawn for the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. BARRETT: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. Member for Bellevue.

MR. BARRETT: The Member for Cape St. Francis is saying

that the Premier looked the camera in the eye and said that he would be here for

the next provincial election. There is nothing wrong with that particular

statement. I would image the Premier will be here in the Province for the next

provincial election. So, I do not know what the member is talking about.

CHAIR: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

MR. J. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: On a new point of order, the hon. the Member for

Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think, Mr. Chairman, what was clearly

understood when I was saying that is that the Premier certainly gave the

indication and said that he would be around to lead this party in the next

election, as Premier. That is what he was saying. In the meantime, while I am on

my feet, I would like to know who withdrew leave.

CHAIR: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

CHAIR: Order, please!

I recognized the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I stand today to say a few words on Executive Council.

AN HON. MEMBER: He does not even know what he is talking

about.

MR. FITZGERALD: I know what I am talking about, I say to

the member. I have it opened here.

Mr. Chairman, this last two days since this House sat - we

sat on Thursday. The House began at 2:00 p.m., so I would assume we probably got

into Orders of the Day around 3:00 p.m., 3:06 p.m., or 3:07 p.m.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: At 3:06 p.m., and we went until 10:00

p.m. On Friday, we started at 9:00 a.m. and went from probably 9:35 a.m. or 9:38

a.m. until 12:00 noon, and up until now there have been two people on this side

of the House who have spoken. There have been two people who have stood here and

carried the debate for however many hours that is.

The Member for Placentia & St. Mary's got up and talked, and

made a lot of sense. He gave the government a real history lesson. He went back

and talked about the way things were, how far we have come, how far we have

regressed, and made a lot of sense in what he was saying.

Then we had the Member for Cape St. Francis, who always makes

sense. He stood in this House and talked. I do not know but the member can

almost see in the future. He talked about the things that are going to happen

and how they unfolded, and the negativity that was brought to bear on the people

of this Province by the government opposite. He talked about the government's

effort in trying to privatize hydro. When people started calling government

members, started calling Open Line shows, coming in here night time, sitting in

the gallery, pleading with the government, to say: We do not want this to

happen, Mr. Premier. We do not want Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro privatized.

Finally, the government had to relent and change their mind.

We saw the same thing happening when the former Premier

appointed Dr. Doug House to bring about the famous income support program. They

did the big selling job across the Province. The Minister of Mines and Energy

wants to talk about a road show. I can tell you that was a road show, when they

travelled across the Province trying to sell the income support program.

AN HON. MEMBER: It was a good idea.

MR. FITZGERALD: It was not a good idea, I say to the

member. There were some good points with it; there is no doubt about that. I am

not so sure it is such a good idea when you go out and tell a family in rural

Newfoundland and Labrador that the mother's or the father's income is going to

judged on what the son or daughter makes out in Hibernia or up in Alberta, that

it was such a good idea.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, that was not true.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it was true. It was a family income

and it was all based on the income that was coming into that household.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, you have it wrong.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I do not have it wrong, I say to the

member.

Mr. Chairman, the Member for Bellevue is right; there were

some good points about it. It was going to take the minimum wage and raise it up

to a minimum income. It was almost like a guaranteed income, if you would, but

it would have been very negative on the other end. One part of it far outweighed

- I think it was too big of a change to allow the lower end of the income

support program to be effective and to work.

There is no way that people would accept it. It should not

have been a family income; it should have been an individual income. Maybe it

would have been a positive thing.

When you see what is happening in rural Newfoundland and

Labrador today, it is nothing short of shameful. I am not so sure that we have

progressed very far. We have brought about the new Department of Development and

Rural Renewal, and the Government House Leader heads up that particular

department. He, in turn, or his predecessor, appointed the RED boards, where

they went out - and all it was, was a glorification of other boards that already

existed.

First, it was rural development, if you recall. We went out

and formed rural development boards. We said: Here is a group of people we are

going to put in place. We are going to allow local people to elect them and we

are going to allow local people to give them direction, because who knows better

what is good for Bellevue or what is good for Bonavista than the people who live

in Bellevue or the people who live in Bonavista? - an excellent idea.

What did we do? We went out and elected the boards, and we

almost made them go out selling tickets in order to support themselves. In fact,

many of those boards were given something like $35,000 or $43,000.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was that?

MR. FITZGERALD: Those rural development boards.

AN HON. MEMBER: Thirty-six five.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thirty six thousand and five hundred

dollars a year is what they were given to maintain an office, maintain a

coordinator, to do their travel, to look after telephone expenses, to look after

their hydro bill - for $36,500.

We say: Now you have to go and become self-sufficient. That

is all the money we are going to give you, but we expect you to come back to us

with your rules and recommendations and suggestions of how you would like to

revitalize rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Then the rural development associations, because of their

lack of funding and because they were not given the tools to do the job -

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I just want to inform the hon.

gentleman that there are still - I meeting with them next week, actually - some

thirty-five rural development associations.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: They do not need it.

AN HON. MEMBER: They do not need it?

CHAIR: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Let me say to the hon. gentlemen that

thirty-five of the fifty-nine that were around are doing very well. They need a

little adjustment in administrative numbers. They are doing very well, I say to

the hon. gentleman, by being implemented. He does not understand, as usual, the

process.

CHAIR: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member understands

and he understands quite well what this government have done. They have taken

away the $35,000 that they gave them in order to survive. Now they are out, and

the only way rural development associations are surviving in this Province today

is with the funding that they can get from the federal coffers of trying to get

3 per cent and 3 per cent for make-work projects that the provincial government

puts forward in order to survive administrative funding. That is wrong.

How do you expect today to have a group of people, whether it

is the rural development associations, Community Futures, or the RED boards, go

out and try to bring about industry and economic activity in rural Newfoundland

and Labrador if you do not give them the tools in order to carry out that

function?

Then the government of the day decided they were going to

progress. Rural development associations were not doing the work government

expected them to do so they brought about a new organization. They went out and

said: We are going to transform the rural development associations. We are now

going to call them community futures. They went out and told the rural

development associations to be prepared: This is the parent company, this is the

parent association, and you people now should get involved in community futures.

What it was, was a rehash of rural development associations.

Then you had one group in conflict with the other. You had them living in fear

of which one government was going to support and which one government was going

to allow to die. The rural development associations hung in there.

MR. E. BYRNE: They are still hanging in, Roger.

MR. FITZGERALD: They are still hanging in there, I say,

with some good, valuable membership, I say to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr.

Chairman, despite the efforts of government to allow them to die.

Then the former minister - prior to the ministry of the

Government House Leader - the Member for Grand Bank went out and decided she was

going to introduce a new form of local administration. They were going to be

called the rural economic development boards, the R.E.D. boards. Those new

boards would then take the place of community futures, they would take the place

of rural development associations, and they were the people that were going to

bring about economic change and prosperity.

I remember myself and the Member for Trinity North attending

the official kickoff ceremonies up at the Holiday Inn or the Clarenville Inn in

Clarenville one bright, sunshiny summer morning with the minister. In fact,

there were probably thirty-five or forty people there. All the volunteers, all

the people you see involved in community councils, the people you see on the

local fire departments, the people you would see taking

part in communities

activities, were there, excited, because this was a new beginning. They were

encouraged to get involved. Those people were going to be given the funding they

needed in order to bring about economic prosperity. Good idea. Good idea, but we

are still waiting. I say to the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal, we

are still waiting.

The jury is out on the minister himself because I am not so

sure he has implemented any change or direction that will bring about economic

prosperity or even allow some hope in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The member's time is up.

MR. E. BYRNE: By leave!

CHAIR: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, so this is how far we have

come. We have gone full circle. As much respect as I have for some of the people

who are on those regional economic development boards, I am not so sure they

have been given the tools to do what needs to be done in order to have industry

and new investors introduced to rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

You will never hear me stand in this House and talk about a

minister being away in Europe, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Guatemala, anywhere,

looking for economic prosperity. You will never hear me question why the

Minister of Development and Rural Renewal travels to Japan. You will never hear

me question why the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology would make a trip

to Ireland. If it is going to bring about one job it is worth the trip, because

the people in Newfoundland and Labrador today, especially the people in rural

areas, are crying out.

The Member for Terra Nova hears it every time he goes to his

district. The Member for Bonavista North hears exactly what I hear. He hears

exactly what I am saying. If there is one thing that frustrates me more than

anything else, it is the phone call that I get from somebody sincerely looking

for a job. They do not want to leave home, and going to Toronto is not an option

for them. It is when they call and say: I wonder if you can tell me where I

might be able to go to look to find a job. If it is one thing that frustrates me

in this job it is the point of not being able to help that individual.

I guess it frustrates me because I know what it is like

myself. I have been unemployed, and I've had to go away to look for a job. Every

time I have left this Province and I've had to leave my family home to go away,

you leave with a knot in your stomach, because you are not sure, number one, of

where you are going, and number two, if it is even going to be economically

feasible for you to make the trip. You are leaving your family home to fend for

themselves.

When you hear people opposite say travelling around Canada is

nothing new, what is wrong with having to go to Alberta to find a job?, or what

is wrong with having to go to Ontario to find a job?, there is probably nothing

wrong with it, if you are leaving to go away because you want to go away. There

is a lot wrong with it when you are leaving to go away and you do not want to

go.

It was only a few months ago that I was at the airport out

here. It was early in the morning, it was about 7:00. I saw this man - I would

say he was forty-two, forty-three years old - whose wife was with him, and there

was another older gentlemen with him. I would assume it was his father that was

with him. You could tell that they were common people. You could tell that being

at the airport was not somewhere they found themselves very often.

I sat back and watched them because I could relate to it

myself. I could relate to the times when I went to the airport in a similar way.

They walked around while they were waiting for the flight to depart. He had gone

and he had checked in. I could see that he was going away to work by the way he

was dressed and by what he had with him.

Just before he entered the waiting area there to get on the

plane I saw the old gentlemen - and I would guess that he was probably seventy

years old, I say to members opposite - reach in and take out his wallet and put

a $5 bill in the son's hand. I had a lump in my throat that I could hardly

swallow, because I'm certain that it was not the first time that wallet was out

to help the son and the daughter-in-law. I am certain it was not the only time

that senior has put his hand in his pocket to help his son and his

daughter-in-law. Or it could have been his daughter and his son-in-law, I do not

know, but it was obviously a close family relationship. The gentleman put his

hand in his back pocket, he took out his wallet and he gave him $5. It was not

to buy a pack of cigarettes. It was a $5 bill to put in his pocket as his way of

saying: I wish I could give more, I wish you did not have to go away, this is

all I can do to help. I guess it made him feel good. It was probably a cup of

coffee or a snack for him on the way. If that kind of thing does not touch you,

then I do not know what will.

My daughter was getting aboard the same airplane. I went out

by the fence like you usually do. You go into St. John's airport and you do not

know if you are at a seaport or an airport. You do not see any activity there.

Most people go out and they watch as their loved one or as their relation gets

aboard the plane. They wave good bye. Usually you see them gathered out by the

parking lot, by the wire fence, to watch as the plane goes by.

I was no different. I went out. My wife would not leave until

she saw the plane go out of sight. The old gentlemen and his daughter, or his

daughter-in-law, I am not sure, were there by the fence. They stood and watched

outside. I was sitting in my car. I don't know how they got to the airport. I

would assume that there was a car or some relative might have dropped them off.

They stood by the wire fence and watched as the plane went by.

My daughter left to go away and go to work. She was a young

person. The only family she had was her mother, father and sister that she left

home. This gentleman was leaving his daughter, he was leaving his wife, and he

was leaving his family, and I can guarantee you it was not the trip he wanted to

make. The only thing I regret is that I did not go over and strike up a

conversation with the old gentleman. That is the only thing I regret today,

because I am sure that his story would have been a story that could be told by

hundreds of rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

One time as a Newfoundlander, it was almost part of growing

up that you had to go away. Newfoundlanders built Toronto. Newfoundlanders built

New York and Boston. You talk to anybody down there and they will tell you it

was the Newfoundlanders who went there and were the hardest workers. They were

the ones that did not mind climbing the heights and erecting the steel. They did

not mind getting up in the morning and working in all wets and weathers. It is

nothing new for Newfoundlanders to have to leave home, nothing new whatsoever,

but up until recently most Newfoundlanders and Labradorians left home because

they wanted to leave home. They wanted to see how the other part of the world

lived. They left to prepare themselves to come back.

I know in my case I went away for eight years. I was away

five years before I even came home, but every hour I was away it was to prepare

myself to come home some day. It was to prepare myself to come home and probably

build a house that I could own rather than have a mortgage. Because in those

days, if you lived in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, if you did not mind going

out and losing a bit of sweat and exercising a bit of elbow grease, you could go

and do those things. You could go in the woods and cut your logs and build your

house. You cannot even do that today, I say to members opposite.

If you go out today, the most you can ask the Department of

Forest Resources and Agrifoods for is a permit to cut one hundred logs to tie it

in. Even then it will come off your firewood. If you don't haul your firewood

out when you cut it, within a month or two months, you have to go to the

Minister of Forestry to get a permit to haul your wood home. How silly. We talk

about living in Newfoundland and Labrador, and we talk about freedoms, and we

talk about the reason why we stay here, the reason why we love it here.

Our rights are being taken away from us. All of a sudden I

think a lot of us come within the confines of this room and we lose sight of why

we are here. We lose sight of the people that we represent. We lose sight of the

people we should be talking about. We come here and we start to represent our

parties or our government or our leader. In fact, I don't know if we should have

any such thing as parties. I think people should come and get elected, and after

they get elected then the party should be decided after. The party should not

play a part when you go out and run for election. I think most people are

getting away from it now. Most people today do not go out and vote for you

because you are a Tory or because you are a Liberal. Most people who got elected

in this House of Assembly are here because the people trust them to support

them. They elect them because they feel that they are the people who will echo

their voice and their opinion right here in this House of Assembly. That is the

way that it should be.

I will get back to the R.E.D. boards again, the boards that

the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal is now responsible for. I would

assume he is going to give them the tools and the funding in order to bring

about some economic change in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I beg your pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The minister said - I did not quite

understand what he did say.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: They received funding for the next three

to five years. Is it funding to allow them to survive, or is it funding where

they can go out and try to identify economic activity and allow people to come

here?

MR. TULK: You do not understand the process at all.

MR. FITZGERALD: Maybe I do not understand the process,

but I understand very well that it has not worked up until now. I understand

that process. If there is a new process put in place, I will give it the benefit

of the doubt and allow it to happen. It is two years old and I have not seen one

economic activity that has been brought about by RED boards in the area that I

have served since they have been there. If there is one or two, inform me.

MR. TULK: When I see them next weekend, I will gladly

inform them of what you just said. (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I would as well, I say to the minister,

inform them. I am not saying they are not trying. I say to you that I have not

seen one project that I can say is the result of the activity of the RED boards.

I have not seen one.

MR. TULK: I will have a list prepared for you.

MR. FITZGERALD: You should. In fact, you should stand

here and put it forward in a Ministerial Statement if they have done those good

things, and lay it out to the House.

MR. TULK: Your own district (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Tell them to me. Start rhyming them off

if you know them.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Tell me one.

MR. TULK: I know lots of them.

MR. FITZGERALD: Never mind, you know lots of them. Tell

me one.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) Bonavista?

MR. FITZGERALD: What are they doing down in Bonavista?

MR. TULK: What are they?

MR. FITZGERALD: You tell me what they are doing.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: That was done by Cabot Resources, I say

to the minister, nothing to do with the RED boards. A couple of the people would

sit on both boards are part of it. That was done by Cabot Resources. Cabot

Resources, a prime example. Here was another association that was put in place

to bring about and help create industry, opportunity and hope. What did they do?

The government strangled them again, cut off all funding to them, and said: If

you are going to exist now, you have to go out and raise your own funds. In

fact, they do not even have a coordinator any more.

I say to the minister that if those people are bringing about

economic activity, or if they are put in place to bring about economic activity,

give them the resources to do it.

There is no point in somebody sitting in an office down in

Port Union, or there is no point in somebody sitting in an office in Wesleyville

and think that industry, prosperity or investors are going to come to them. You

have to get out and compete. You have to be there. You have to get your feet

wet.

The only way to do it is to put good people there, which we

have I think. I think we have identified the right people. We now have to give

them the tools to get on and do the job.

Mr. Chairman, there are things happening in other areas of

other provinces. Some things are happening in rural Newfoundland and Labrador,

but it seems that, for the most part, we try to fool ourselves that we are doing

something by appointing boards, giving them no funding, and expecting them to

bring us back the answers of what is going to create economic activity, support

our communities, and support our people. That is not happening, I say to the

minister.

The onus is on you, Minister. People are expecting you to be

an example. People are expecting you to go out and show them, and put forward

your ideas, your opinions, and give them -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) cooperation.

MR. FITZGERALD: You will get cooperation from me, I say

to the minister.

MR. TULK: You are up (inaudible) your own people.

MR. FITZGERALD: You do not know what you are talking

about. It is no wonder we are in such shape. It is no wonder rural Newfoundland

and Labrador is falling down around our ears, when you hear those kinds of

statements coming from the minister.

The minister had a good idea a couple of months ago.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Just a minute, now. The minister had a

good idea when he was the Minister for - he was in your job then, I say to the

member from the West Coast. He was the Minister for Agriculture, Agrifoods at

the time, and the minister had an excellent idea. Here is the minister's idea,

the only idea that I have ever heard him bring forward in this House for

economic prosperity for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

This is the only economic activity that he has ever talked

about, and the headlines in the paper read: Here is the beef - buffalo beef that

is. Local buffalo beef and bison burgers may soon be a regular commodity on

supermarket shelves and restaurant menus in Newfoundland. The provincial

government is currently studying a proposal to operate buffalo ranches on the

Avalon Peninsula and other areas of the Province. The proponents are awaiting

word from Agriculture Minister, Beaton Tulk, for permission to import buffalo to

start their farms.

Mr. Chairman, this was the minister's proposal for economic

diversification. This is was the minister's proposal for the survival of rural

Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. TULK: That is not quite the way that read.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is exactly the way it read. The

minister went on to say that Newfoundland is the only Province which does not

have buffalo. He said, the plans called for the establishment of three or four

buffalo farms on the Avalon Peninsula, one in the central region and another on

the West Coast.

It was a situation that those buffalo farms were not going to

be unique to the Avalon. They were going to be spread right across the Province,

and you would see these signs up as you drive through Terra Nova National Park,

and you would see the signs up as you go through the Humber Valley, and they

would have pictures of buffalo on them instead of pictures of moose.

The minister went on to say that, right now bison meat tops

the Canadian market both in terms of demand and price. So, it was going to be in

big demand and I guess the price would certainly be high because the price would

depend on the demand.

He said, the size of the buffalo ranches would depend on

whether they are breeding stock or beef stock ranches, which would be much

larger. The largest buffalo ranch in the Atlantic region is a 200-head operation

in New Brunswick, and the minister is hoping to have buffalo ranches even

greater than this one. They have been working out great everywhere, he said,

according to our studies. It is a very viable investment, in our opinion.

He said, the ranch buffalo would be obtained from breeders

across the country. The only remaining area in Canada where buffalo still roam

free is in Alberta - so he did quite an extensive study on it - Newfoundland

ranchers would have the buffalo in captivity -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Wait now. He said, the buffalo ranches

would have the buffalo in captivity but controlled situations.

He went on to say - listen to this one, Mr. Chairman - you

would have to keep a close eye on them and you would not be able to let them

roam pastures like they do with cattle. So, he knew their actions, he had it all

checked out, and this was the minister's proposal.

He went to say that the reason why it is in such high demand

is because it is so low in fat and low in cholesterol. It would be a good source

of red meat.

He went on, and said - and we all remember this one - the

government tried this before in 1964 when they brought bison in from Alberta and

placed them on Brunette Island in Fortune Bay. Three years later, there were

only eight left. By the late 1980s there was just one, and that one has not been

reported to have been sighted in recent years.

AN HON. MEMBER: They went over the cliffs.

MR. FITZGERALD: They went over the cliffs, Mr. Chairman,

and that is the only proposal I have heard this minister bring forward in the

six years that I have been here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: That is a night issue, I say to the

(inaudible).

That is the only recommendation I have heard this minister

bring forward. It is the only suggestion.

He sits in his seat today and shouts, and talks about how: I

am going to tell your people this, and I am going to tell your people something

else.

I say to the minister, he can take a copy of Hansard, of

anything I say in this House, and send it to my 9,277 electors and I will say

that I will stand, I will support, and I will verify everything that I have ever

brought forward in this House of Assembly.

I can tell you, when I stand here, I speak on behalf of the

9,277 electors who can go out and support me and send me here to represent them.

Mr. Chairman, those are some of the things that have to be

done in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. You have to listen to the people. There

is no point in creating a charade where you go out there and, because you are

the new minister, because you are the new act on the block, or because you are

the new kid on the block, that you have to go and create another organization or

another association. Support the people you already have. Give them the tools to

do the job to bring about economic diversification.

Mr. Chairman, I say to you, I say to the minister, there are

a lot of opportunities that still exist with some of the few industries we have,

if you try to support them.

Let's never forget this EDGE legislation that this government

brought in. Remember the old EDGE legislation? What did they do with the EDGE

legislation? They put out their long distance calls, they got on the Internet

and they said: Come to Newfoundland and Labrador. We will give you free land. We

will give you free taxation. We will give you $2,000 for every job you create.

We will give you all the public land that you want.

What did they say to our local Newfoundlanders? What did they

say to the local Newfoundlander who was out trying to create economic activity?

What did they say to him?

AN HON. MEMBER: Payroll tax.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You will get nothing.

CHAIR (Smith): Order, please!

Leave has been withdrawn.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to rise and compliment my colleague, the Member

for Bonavista South -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: - and to say, in the few seconds I have,

that it would be a real shame if I were to take up too much time, because I am

being educated. I am learning a lot about Newfoundland and Labrador. I am sure

the member would want to continue. Therefore, I shall facilitate his ability to

rise and further educate the government as to what policies really work in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, the problem with the

government and the problem with the minister -

CHAIR: Order, please!

I know the hon. member is anxious.

The Chair recognizes the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr.Chairman, now you can see the exact

reason why we are in such bad shape as we are in today. The minister does not

want to listen to reason, does not want to listen to suggestions, turns his ear

and says: We will withdraw leave. We do not want to hear what you are saying any

more. We do not care if you are representing the views and opinions of your

district or your constituents. Tell him to sit down.

MR. TULK: Who said that?

MR. FITZGERALD: Whoever withdrew leave. That is what it

means; that is exactly what it is. We have time here to spend on the Budget, and

it does not matter if one person speaks or 100 speak, I say to the minister.

Mr. Chairman, I refer again to the EDGE legislation. They

went out and invited everybody to come on in and enjoy the government

free-for-all. Enjoy free taxation. You do not have to pay any taxes. They went

out and got communities to say that they would not impose taxation either. They

went out and said: We will give you free land, you can have all the Crown land

you need. We will pay you $2,000 for every job you create. You can have a tax

holiday for the first five or ten years. We will give you the keys. Come on in.

What they forgot to do is to offer the same thing to our

local Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who are out there every day toiling and

existing and prospering in spite of government rules and regulations. To make

matters worse, they even imposed a payroll tax on them in order to pay for the

benefits that they were passing to other people to come here and create economic

activity.

There is nothing wrong with having come to this Province and

provide some opportunity. There is nothing wrong with that. If there are people

out there, let's welcome them and let's bring them in, and let's help them when

we can, but by God, we should not do it when at the expense of our own rural

people. If there are any benefits there we should offer it to our own rural

people as well. That was not done.

What is wrong with Wayne Chard who operates a bake shop in

Bonavista getting $2,000 if he created a job? What is wrong with Fifield's Bake

Shop in Bonavista, or the bake shop up in Trinity, to get $2,000 if they could

expand and create another job? What is wrong with that? What is wrong with

Pottle's Cycle and Recreation if they decided they were going to expand and

create two extra jobs? Why couldn't we offer them the same benefits? What is the

difference?

That is what we have to get into. We have to start treating

everybody alike. If we are going to be supporting people in rural Newfoundland

and Labrador, the people that is going to create the economic activity, for the

most

part it is going to be most of the people who are there now. Those are the

ones that should be encouraged and helped. If we can bring somebody in to help

along the way, then let's do it.

Right now, look at our sealing industry. The Minister of

Fisheries and Aquaculture is there. We are saying we have to kill 1 million or 2

million seals, or half the seal population, in order to allow the fishery to

rebuild and reduce the herd. There is nobody, I do not think, in this House,

that will disagree with that. If we have a few dollars and if we can help, then

let's help support that particular industry. Let's help them go out and find new

markets. Let's help them develop their tanneries. Let's help them go and get

into meat manufacturing or whatever else it takes in order to be able to utilize

the full animal, and in order to convince the people up in Ottawa and the people

like the IFAW that what we are doing here there is a need for. That is what they

are looking for. That is the direction they are looking for from this government

here. That is what we should be doing.

It is pretty expensive to come and get involved in businesses

in some parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We do not have a big

population here. We are so far removed from markets that it is a chore in

itself, I guess, to even survive here.

That is the same thing with our minerals. We talk about all

the minerals we have. We talk about the riches we have. We also have a big

handicap when you look at the cost of getting at those minerals and at the cost

of getting them to market. I suppose the one thing, the biggest hindrance of

all, is the Gulf ferry service that we have heard the Member for Baie Verte

raise here on a number of occasions.

I don't know if we are amazed because we have almost taken it

for granted now, but if you drive out between here and Clarenville or here to

the West Coast, or I don't care where you drive, the next time you do it just

count the number of transport trucks that you meet. Just count them and compare

that to the number you saw ten or twenty years ago. Now you meet them almost in

convoys because our train is gone and our coastal service is gone. We now ship

just about everything that we move in this Province by road transport.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is wrong with that?

MR. FITZGERALD: There is nothing wrong with it, I say to

the minister. It is a very expensive way of transportation. I will tell you what

is wrong with it. There is nothing with the mode of transportation probably, but

there is a lot wrong, Mr. Chairman, with what is happening with the Gulf

service.

You talk to truckers today and you find out what it costs

them to use that particular service, and you find out the amount of time that is

consumed by their trucks parked and their employees standing on one end of the

Gulf or the other, whether it is on this side or the other side, and it is no

wonder we are paying such a high price for fresh fruits and commodities. When

you talk to truckers you hear them say: I take up a load of fish to Montreal,

Toronto or Boston and on the way back I pick up a load of fresh fruit, I pick up

a load of bananas in Ontario, or I pick them up in Boston or something like

that.

A lot of the fruit brought into this Province has to be

brought in and has to be sold on a time frame. You just cannot start up the

reefer and say: If we are here a week or if we are here for ten days it does not

matter. It does not work that way. They are operating on a

schedule that they

must have that product to Sobey's or Dominion, or to wherever the destination

ends, at a certain time. When they find themselves on the other end of the Gulf

ferry service over in North Sydney for two or three days because they cannot get

on the ferry - not because it is too rough - because the trucks are left to

last, the passengers are looked after first, and it is not uncommon for them to

spend three and four days there, then when they get to Sobey's and Dominion they

find out that what they got on board is no good.

They will accept it but it is no good. They will get paid for

their trip probably. Then we wonder why we have to pay such a high price for

fresh fruit in this Province. Where does it go? It goes to the dump, I say to

members opposite. Who pays for it? Do Sobey's or Dominion take a loss? Not

likely. The family out in Musgravetown, the family out in Bellevue, and the

parent down in Catalina, who go and takes their meagre amount of money to try to

buy fresh fruit to put on the table for themselves or the son or the daughter,

what they pay reflects on what was lost by the shortcomings of our ferry service

on the Gulf between Newfoundland and Cape Breton.

Then we saw New Brunswick brought about the toll highway last

year. Who suffers most from that, I ask members opposite? Who suffers most from

the toll that is issued up in New Brunswick? Here again, the consumers in

Newfoundland and Labrador. The Member for Torngat Mountains can tell you all

about what it costs. The Member for Labrador West, if he cared to stand in his

place here and talk about some of the things that I just referred to, can talk

about them from now until the cows come home because he knows this is true.

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. FITZGERALD: He knows, Mr. Chairman, exactly what I am

saying is true because he has had to go through it many times before. I have

made many trips down on the Labrador Coast -

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave!

CHAIR: Leave denied.

The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, it is an honour and privilege

for me today to speak on behalf of the people of the historic District of

Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: My first duty today is to offer our support

from all members of this House to any families in our Province who have sons and

daughters serving in the current conflict in Yugoslavia. Our prayers are with

you all.

Mr. Chairman, it is indeed a great pleasure, privilege, and

an honour to make my initial address in this House. There are few things that

are certain in our ever changing world, but one of the few certainties is this:

No one seeks political office in order to secure for themselves a restful,

relaxing, calm and complacent job, except for the hon. Member for Waterford

Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. H. HODDER: Point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. SWEENEY: Indeed the hours can be long and tedious -

CHAIR: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Waterford

Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I regret having to do this,

but the rules, and courtesy, say we should not cast aspersions on other members.

I think the comment there was a little bit against the rules and I ask the

member to consider not casting aspersions on other members. I regret having to

say this since it is his introductory speech and normally we do not interrupt on

these occasions.

CHAIR: The Chair feels there was certainly nothing

untoward in the hon. member's remarks, and there is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, indeed the hon. Member for

Waterford Valley is a picture of grief and sympathy over there, I must say.

Indeed, the hours can be long and tedious. There is

contention virtually at every turn, and the responsibility of directing matters

that will affect the lives of many thousands of individuals weighs heavily on

our shoulders. However, our government has been aware of the economic problems

facing this Province for some time. We have worked with diligence and dedication

to achieve the best for all people of Newfoundland and Labrador. It has not been

easy, but this government has performed tasks that had to be done. We did not

shirk from that responsibility. Our government has done, is doing, and will

continue to do the very best for the citizens of our Province.

It is never easy to talk about money, whether it is college

tuition for your son or daughter, bills that have to be paid on the home front,

or the millions of dollars a government has to spend province-wide. It is never

easy to talk about it and it is never easy to live within the bounds which we

are forced to live sometimes. However, given the condition of our provincial

economy, not to mention the wishes of already overburdened taxpayers, the first

priority of any budget mu