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March 2, 2010

39th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

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Hansard Transcripts 2010-Mar-02 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Tuesday 2 March 2010 Mardi 2 mars 2010

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FULL DAY EARLY LEARNING

STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE L'APPRENTISSAGE

DES JEUNES ENFANTS À TEMPS PLEIN

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

HEALTH CARE

FOREST INDUSTRY

PATIENT SAFETY

TAXATION

HEALTH CARE

MUNICIPAL DEVELOPMENT

BIODIVERSITY

JOB CREATION

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS

AIR QUALITY

HOSPITAL FUNDING

ANIMAL HEALTH

HOSPITAL FUNDING

TERMINATION AND SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

LANGUAGE TRAINING

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

ESTIMATES

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

AIR QUALITY

PUBLIC SKATING EVENTS

ONTARIO BUDGET

RURAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE

FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN

ENERGY RETAILERS

OLYMPIC ATHLETES

TAXATION

PETITIONS

ELMVALE DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOL

SOUND BARRIERS

POWER PLANT

RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY

TAXATION

LUPUS

TAXATION

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ELECTION STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE LES ÉLECTIONS

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

FOREST INDUSTRY

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord's Prayer, followed by the Hindu prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FULL DAY EARLY LEARNING

STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE L'APPRENTISSAGE

DES JEUNES ENFANTS À TEMPS PLEIN

Resuming the debate adjourned on March 1, 2010, on the motion for second reading of Bill 242,

An Act to amend the Education Act and certain other Acts in relation to early childhood educators, junior kindergarten and kindergarten, extended day programs and certain other matters / Projet de loi 242, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'éducation et d'autres lois en ce qui concerne les éducateurs de la petite enfance, la maternelle et le jardin d'enfants, les programmes de jour prolongé et d'autres questions.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further debate?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I'm very pleased, as the education critic for the PC caucus, to have this opportunity to make some remarks today regarding this bill, the Full Day Early Learning Statute Law Amendment Act, 2010, which has been brought forward by the Minister of Education. This act, Bill 242, is

An Act to amend the Education Act and certain other Acts in relation to early childhood educators, junior kindergarten and kindergarten, extended day programs and certain other matters. It was introduced into the House for first reading on February 17, 2010. Of course, now we're doing second reading, and ostensibly this will go to committee and there will be opportunities for public input in order that we can hear first-hand what some of the issues are that the public may have about this bill and how we can continue to make it better.

This bill basically does one thing: It would mandate that all school boards in the province of Ontario–and we have the four different school boards—would offer all-day kindergarten for four- and five-year-olds, the children in what we call today junior and senior kindergarten, and it would integrate extended-day programs into schools. This bill would also give authority to school boards in the province of Ontario, and also the responsibility, which is quite different, to set, charge and collect the fees for the before- and after-school programs.

We have had, at some schools, daycare programs that have been established, and usually it has been by an independent provider, but this bill would give the boards the authority and the responsibility to set, charge and collect the fees for the before- and after-school programs.

How did this all-day kindergarten come to be? Well, in 2007, after having promised this in the 2003 election, the Liberals did appoint an early learning advisor to develop this all-day kindergarten program. On November 27, 2007, the Premier did appoint Dr. Charles Pascal to recommend the best way to implement an all-day kindergarten program. Dr. Pascal submitted his report in July 2009. He entitled it With Our Best Future in Mind and he gave it to the Premier. On October 27, 2009, the government first made the announcement that it was going to be phasing in all-day kindergarten and that it would happen by 2015-16.

We now understand that perhaps those timelines have shifted, because I think the government has recognized, as we do, that they have a huge debt, they have a deficit, and it's becoming increasingly more difficult, as a result of the economic situation that we find ourselves in in the province of Ontario—we do not have the resources to do everything that we would like to do, and unless we see the creation of more private sector jobs and we see more taxes collected from people and businesses in the province of Ontario, it's going to be extremely difficult to do all things for all people. So the timeline will probably be shifting.

So what about this bill? What about this program? I would need to state categorically that I do support the principle of this program. In fact, if you take a look at the Progressive Conservative record over the past years, you will see that our party has long supported and recognized the need for early childhood development. In 1998, our government did commission the Early Years report. That study was chaired by Dr. Fraser Mustard, an outstanding individual in his promotion of ensuring that we give children the best start in life, and also by the Honourable Margaret McCain. That Early Years report was completed in 1999.

What it did was it emphasized the importance of working with communities to expand the capacity for early childhood development and also for parenting programs. I think it's important to recognize that obviously we need to do much more to support parents in the province of Ontario to learn what it is to be a parent and how they can best support and interact with their children.

The report stated that a focus on children's early years is crucial to ensure that Ontario enjoys a highly competent and well-educated population capable of participating fully in the new global economy. The study also confirmed that the better the nurturing and the learning experiences in early childhood, the better the outcomes.

As a result of the information that we were able to obtain from the early years report, we did several things. We created Ontario's early years centres; in fact, I would say to you that this has been one of the most successful initiatives related to the early years ever established in the province of Ontario. We created 103 of the 108 early years centres.

I know that in my own community, they have been a blessing for parents, for grandparents who look after their children and for child care providers. They have certainly been centres where parents and those who work with children have been able to see tremendous growth and have been able to nurture and provide excellent learning experiences for children.

I would also say to you that we spent, when we were in office, a record amount on child care. Between 1995 and 2003, our government doubled investments in children's social services to more than $2.2 billion per year.

As well, our government established the Healthy Babies, Healthy Children program. As a result, all children in this province are now screened at birth in order to determine if they may be at risk—that might be physical, mental or social. If it's deemed that some of these babies are at risk, they will be supported, first of all, by nurses, and later on by lay people, in order to help and support parents.

For many parents in the province of Ontario and for some of the people who have come to our shores, it's important that these people recognize that it's important to cuddle your baby, read to your children and to play games with them.

I will tell you: As a result of the Healthy Babies, Healthy Children program, more children each year have a better start in life. I was disappointed, however, recently, to see that this government of Premier McGuinty has made some reductions in funding for this program, because it has been highly, highly successful. In speaking to public health nurses, I have certainly received that information first-hand, and I certainly hope that we will not see any further reductions.

Another program that has been very, very beneficial has been the preschool speech and language program that we introduced, and 70,000 children with speech and language difficulties received help through that program. Again, it gave those young children the best opportunity to be the best they could be, and I think it again demonstrates that early intervention is extremely important in helping our children, particularly those who have special needs.

The other initiative that we introduced between 1995 and 2003 was the Ontario Breakfast for Learning initiative, because we recognized that many children were coming to school without any breakfast. We all know that if children are to learn and benefit from the environment at school, they obviously need good nutrition. I've certainly had the opportunity to go to schools and be with the children as volunteers make sure that they do receive the nutrition that is necessary to get them off to a good start each day.

Those are some of the programs that our government did put in place, and as I say, much of this is the result of the study that we commissioned, which was done by Dr. Mustard and by the Honourable Margaret McCain.

So now to all-day kindergarten. As I said, I do support this bill in principle. In fact, when I was chair of the school board, I supported the initiative whereby we were constructing daycare centres attached to our new schools. I think for many families today who have two parents working, or a single parent is heading up the family, it's really important that they know that their children are supported throughout the day, that they have that feeling of confidence and security.

However, the biggest obstacle that we have with the introduction of this bill at this time is the additional cost of the program at a time when we have a record $25-billion deficit. And we have absolutely no plan to deal with it.

Premier McGuinty has not made any announcements as to any plans that he has to deal with the debt, which has doubled, or the deficit, which is at $25 billion. He has not shared with us any plans to ensure that we see an increase in jobs in the province of Ontario. In fact, do you know what? We were able to create an environment when we were in office that saw the private sector create over one million new jobs. What we've seen with this government is, each month, each year, a steady erosion of jobs in Ontario. We're also seeing more and more businesses going into bankruptcy.

Again, this government desperately needs to make as a priority the creation of jobs by the private sector. The only place we're seeing job growth is in the public sector, and unfortunately, it's the hard-pressed taxpayer who is going to have to pay for the wages and the benefits of those jobs, when many people are having difficulty today making ends meet, particularly in light of the HST, which is going to burden families and seniors, and have a huge impact on the cost of living in the province of Ontario.

Yesterday, I did a radio talk show where they talked about taking the HST off of the price of gasoline. I know they've done that in British Columbia. Basically, we're opposed to the HST, but certainly this government needs to take a look at the impact and see what else they can do to make it revenue-neutral.

I talked about the fact that we don't have jobs. I guess, if we take a look at the deficit and we take a look at the priorities, one of the priorities has to be that the people who are unemployed be given the opportunity for retraining; and we're seeing that that's simply not happening. We saw the establishment of the Second Career program, but then it was drastically and arbitrarily ended in one week. And now that it has come back into being, it hardly meets the need of about one tenth of the people who originally applied to it. I'm going to speak to that later as well.

The other priorities: I met last week with the Toronto District School Board, and the chairman said to me that they're desperately in need of special education funding. He told me that they're serving 5,200 more special-needs students with greater complexity. I believe this is probably common to boards throughout the province. We are seeing more and more special-needs students. But they are not receiving the funding that is necessary. According to the TDSB, the funding shortfall is presently equivalent to $550 per student that is being served. So the cost of this multi-billion dollar program is a concern, certainly for school boards throughout the province of Ontario.

I got an e-mail last month from someone in Ottawa who is concerned about the upcoming provincial budget, is concerned about the funding for school boards and is concerned about the fact that they were hearing rumours that they would have to cut second-language teachers, special education teachers and educational assistants. They are very concerned about the impact that that type of major cut is going to have on the students who come to the schools and are desperately in need of support, whether it's the newcomer to Canada or whether it's, as they say, students with high risk.

These are the other priorities that school boards have in the province of Ontario, and those needs are not being addressed.

I think if we take a look at this program, the government has indicated that the plan is to spend $200 million in 2010 and $300 million in 2011 to get the program up and running. They've said that when it's fully implemented, by 2015 and 2016, the government's all-day kindergarten program will cost $1.5 billion a year.

However, I would say to you, Madam Speaker, that that is only an estimate, because what this government has failed to do, and always fails to do, is to accurately and completely submit to public scrutiny a plan of action, a plan of implementation, a plan that would identify each year how many more schools will be the beneficiaries of full-day kindergarten and what the cost will be. We haven't seen that—

Mr. John O'Toole: There's no plan.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: —because there is no plan. There is no long-term plan. They're simply saying, "We're going to do it. No matter what the cost, we're going to do it." And, of course, that is going to be a huge challenge for the taxpayers in the province of Ontario, who, as I said before, are already reeling from the about-to-be-introduced HST on July 1 or are reeling because they have lost their job or they have not been allowed entry into the Second Career program. People in this province are feeling quite challenged.

In fact, earlier today I talked to someone in the printing industry. They talked to me about the challenges that they're facing and the fact that their business may soon go bankrupt. I've recently, in my own community, seen a men's clothing store, a ladies' clothing store and an Office Depot store go under. I heard also from someone about a mechanic in a garage who told me that business there is down. The reality is that people in this province are just hoping that they can recover from the recession that we've all experienced, but it's fragile, and they don't have any additional money for discretionary spending; they have so many fixed costs.

The other thing we know is going to go up is the price of electricity. People in this province have no idea what this government has done when it comes to energy. Over the next three or four or five years, we are going to see that the private sector is going to have more and more difficulty in creating new jobs. We're not even going to be able to attract new business to the province of Ontario because we're not going to have electricity prices that are affordable. There's somebody in my own community recently that has decided they're going to Ohio.

It is a much better environment if you want to create jobs and expand your business. So this province right now, I would say to you, regrettably, because of the policies of this government, is in a very, very fragile state.

But let's take a look at another unknown cost of this program. I've said that the government estimates that it will cost $1.5 billion a year, but we're certainly already seeing that it probably will cost more; that's just for operational costs. But there's another huge cost that they have not spoken about, and that is the cost of the new physical spaces that are going to be needed to accommodate the students in this program.

There are many students in this province who are at schools where there's no additional physical capacity; and this government has said absolutely nothing about how they plan to pay for the additional physical spaces. In fact, unfortunately as well, this program is not going to be providing fair access to students in the province of Ontario. It's not necessarily going to be provided first to the students who are most in need of the additional support and nurturing and early learning opportunities. Because if a school doesn't have a physical space, there's not going to be a program.

And this government has been totally silent as to what the cost might be. That is going to have a huge impact as to whether or not this program is going to be rolled out by 2015-16; and again, the additional question is, how are we going to pay for it?

Of course, the other issue is, how are parents going to be charged for the before and after programs? What type of programming will be available over the summer, and on PA days? There are many, many unanswered questions. Basically, we've heard, "We're going to do it. We don't know how we're going to do it. We don't know how long it's going to take us to do it. No, I'm sorry, I can't tell you when your school will have full-day learning. I'm sorry if your neighbour who goes to the Catholic school is going to have the program but you're not.

You'll need to continue to pay for your child care costs." There are just so many unanswered questions. There's also the issue of unequal, unfair access to the program.

I think that's one thing this government should have done, is to have taken a look at what is it that we're going to do and how are we going to do it, and rolled out a complete and full implementation plan, year by year; have surveyed school boards, asked them what additional space was necessary; and at the same time as they announced the program, have been in the position to also indicate that school board B is going to get this amount of additional money to build this amount of space. I have parents now who are saying, "You know, Elizabeth, I have a one-year-old.

My child might never be the beneficiary of this program, I'm going to have to pay the child care expenses and yet," as I said before, "the neighbour next door" whose children maybe go to the public school board, "those children will have access this year."

Nobody has considered who is going to get the program first. It's really all dependent on space. It's not according to need, whether that need is for additional nurturing and early learning, or whether that need is related to the ability to pay for the child care and the necessity of the child care.

This government, as always, just makes an announcement, wants the headlines, and then, afterwards, considers how they're going to pay for it. Well, this is also the province that has gone from first to last in Confederation. We used to be the economic powerhouse; we're now at the bottom. Jobs are simply not being created here. If you don't have job creation, if you don't have businesses wanting to expand, to come into the province—if you don't have those taxes, then you can't pay for educational costs, you can't pay for the health care costs, you can't pay for the social service costs that are so necessary.

Let's take a look. Let's go back to capacity. Currently, I understand, only one third of the schools in this province are able to completely accommodate all-day kindergarten right now. So what are the other two thirds going to do? Where's the plan? What's the cost of the additional space that's going to be required? It's going to be huge when it comes to capital investments. And who's going to pay for it? We've already got a $25-billion deficit. This is a big issue. Somewhere this government is going to have to find savings, because we can't do everything. Of course, I go back to the whole issue of fairness.

How are we going to make sure that all students and all families that need it and are a priority receive the program? There's absolutely no plan. There's no equality or fairness; it's simply going to happen in a very ad hoc manner. Families are not going to be able to plan for their future.

Let's take a look at the implementation plan, the rollout, and what has been happening. Some trustees—although they're hesitant to be critical because they're afraid they won't get their fair share of funding—have indicated some concern about the implementation plan, the rollout of the program.

One person was Irene Atkinson, a long-time trustee here in Toronto for Parkdale—High Park, who boldly said, "This is one of the most ill-conceived and badly thought-out programs the province has ever announced." She has had lots of experience, and she obviously recognizes that there are two thirds of our schools that don't have the capacity. There are many students in the province who would benefit from this program and really need it; they aren't going to be the beneficiaries either.

Another trustee in Grand Erie, Don Werden, said that all-day kindergarten is "a runaway train waiting for a wreck. They"—the ministry—"will blame us when it doesn't work."

This is what happens when the government doesn't have a complete plan of implementation, when people are left asking questions, when people recognize that there are negative consequences to the program's introduction that aren't being addressed. So today, we're in a state where parents and educators continue not to have the necessary details as to how the program will be implemented, what schools are going to be eligible each year and what the total cost and staffing requirements are going to be as well.

There is concern in the province, and these are some of the questions that must be answered. We've heard from parents with concerns. We've heard from trustees. My colleague was telling me he has heard from some teachers, and certainly I have as well, and we've also heard from daycare operators.

It has been previously mentioned that up to 35,000 children in roughly 580 schools are expected to participate in the program this fall. Although the parents have been advised of the schools that will support all-day kindergarten this year, the concern is about the ones in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016. Is it going to go into 2017? Again, I just think that issue of inequity is very serious. Of course, it's not fair that one parent would have access to the program and another one would have to continue to pay child care costs, or maybe the child is going to another school for an indefinite period of time.

Another issue that has arisen is that I think we're seeing some competition among school boards. Again, there's some concern among school boards that funding maybe isn't being allocated equally. I can't speak to that issue; I just know that it has been brought to my attention.

Another serious issue has been the impact that this is going to have on daycare operators. I have heard from many daycare operators in the province of Ontario. Some of them have indicated that they may well have to close, which is certainly going to create hardship for people in the province of Ontario who depended on these daycare centres to look after their children when they were working. But they're saying that they may have to close; they may have to cut staff; they may have to close programs.

There are some deliberations now going on, but they're pretty disappointed that there was no consultation before the introduction of the bill. They feel that they have met a need of children and families in this province over many years. They've tried to do what was right, and now, in many respects, they all have no choice but to either reduce their programming capacity or just close down altogether. It inevitably will probably lead to the loss of some staff.

I think if we take a look at what Dr. Pascal recommended, you'll see that what the government has introduced is not one and the same. I think that's important, and that's part of the reason for the problems when it comes to daycare.

But I want to share with you a little story that was in the Brantford Expositor about a daycare operator. It says:

"Forty years ago, Judy Friel and her business partner, armed with $400, opened their first child care centre.

"A labour of love, the work, she says, has never been an easy way to earn a living.

"'As I look back on the chain of events that has happened, it is a wonder that we survived,' said Friel. 'There have been so many roadblocks to being an independent operator that the mind boggles.'

"Now Friel, and the operators of 34 licensed child care centres in Brantford and Brant county, are more than a little concerned about how the province's plan to offer full-day learning for four- and five-year-olds will affect their businesses....

"'There is no way we operators can find the financial resources to continue,' said Friel. 'The whole child care system will fold unless heavy subsidies are offered. Of course, the for-profit operator will not qualify for this kind of funding.'

"Sue Norden," Brantford's "director of child care services, oversees all of the local licensed daycare centres."

Norden said that, regardless, "all operators will face financial hardship as full-day kindergarten rolls out over the next five years...."

Norden said that "four-and five-year-olds represent close to 20% of the total revenue at local child care centres...."

And I think that's something that the government didn't seriously consider. Often, the fees that are paid by the four- and five-year-olds' parents help to subsidize the cost of the younger children, because the cost is higher for younger children. So I think we're going to see in daycare centres an increase in the amount that is going to be asked of parents now that the daycare centres are only going to be providing daycare for children from birth to age three.

These people, such as Judy Friel, who opened a child care centre 40 years ago to support families and children, did it—and it is tough. I would agree with her. It's very tough to make a living as a child care operator. Certainly from my own experience, the people that I know at home do it because they love children and they want to support families. But these small business entrepreneurs are now going to be negatively impacted. They're going to have to make some decisions.

It's unfortunate that the government perhaps did not move forward as Dr. Pascal had recommended. Again, I want to stress that the government did not fully adopt the recommendations of Dr. Pascal. He called for the province to create a continuum of early learning and child care. All we're seeing here is full-day kindergarten for four- and five-year-olds. So, again, you have a problem.

The other issue that I've heard about is that some parents are telling me that if the school offers full-day and they only want their child to go to half-day, that's not going to be an option for them. I think we need to remember that kindergarten is not mandatory in the province of Ontario. You don't have to send your child, and some people choose not to. Sometimes they keep them at home and care for them themselves. Sometimes they prefer to leave them with family. But I think we need to recognize that if you make a decision that you don't want your child to go to full-day, you should have that opportunity and be able to have the half-day option.

Having said that, I can tell you that, personally, I went to full-day kindergarten from age three on.

Mr. Jeff Leal: Look how well you turned out, Elizabeth.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: That's right. But I was living in Holland, so that was a very different story. Again, I say people need to have a choice. Do you want full-day, do you want half-day, or do you prefer that your child not go to kindergarten? Obviously, that's a decision that you need to make, and I would hope that parents would continue to have that freedom of choice.

I'm also concerned about the fact that our unemployed Ontarians need to be given access to retraining and to education. Before this government took office, there were 1,072,800 manufacturing jobs in Ontario. Today there are only 793,800. This represents a staggering loss of 279,000 net manufacturing jobs, and that's significant.

In my own community, people think that because we're high tech, we must have been spared, but last month Waterloo region's jobless rate did jump to 9.9% while the jobless rate nationally fell. We have a high jobless rate, but we've got Windsor with 12.8%, St. Catharines and Niagara with 11.2%, Oshawa with 10.4% and Sudbury with 10.4% as well.

We have a problem. We know that unemployment will ease as we move forward into the future, but as I've said before, it has been fragile. We certainly hope that this government, in its throne speech next week on Monday, comes out with a real plan as to how we can create the environment that is going to allow the private sector the confidence to create new jobs. I believe that has to be the government's first priority. We can only afford programs like this full-day program if we see new job creation, if we see Ontario again moving up and becoming the economic powerhouse in Canada.

Ontario needs to focus on retraining and retooling its workforce. I attended a speech delivered by Dr. Rick Miner at the Canadian Club on February 3. According to Dr.

Miner: "Ontario is on the verge of an unemployment crisis that could be far more destructive than the 2009 recession ... (And that) if current trends continue, hundreds of thousands of people will lack the necessary skills to find any work." That's why I believe it's so important that the government provide those who are unemployed—many of them with no grade 12 education, many of them lacking basic literacy and math skills—the opportunity to get those skills, then go into the retraining programs, go into the colleges, go to the universities. We need people with skills.

Dr. Miner indicates that if we don't take action, more than 700,000 people in Ontario will be unemployed by 2021. Why? They don't have the education. They don't have the basic skills. That is also going to mean that there are more than 1.1 million Ontarians who will be unemployed in just 11 years, and they will have no prospect whatsoever of finding work. In the meantime, we're going to have 1.3 million jobs where we don't have people with the skills and the training to fill the jobs. So we have a huge challenge in the province of Ontario.

We need to be providing more funding in order to make sure that our people in this province who are currently unemployed, graduating from grade 12, can access post-secondary education and training. This government needs to make sure that we put the money aside for apprenticeship training as well.

So while I agree with all-day kindergarten in principle, and although I have always supported early childhood development throughout my entire career, I am concerned about the students who are not going to have the skills they need to be able to access post-secondary education and training.

There's also growing evidence that many students lack the literacy and math skills that they currently need for post-secondary education. Some 44% of Canadian adults today don't have the literacy and numeracy skills they need, according to Statistics Canada and OECD. Roughly 30% of Canadian students aged 15 have a low level of proficiency in science or were just starting to demonstrate the competencies that would enable them to participate actively in life situations related to science and technology.

We know that many students today are going into our universities—indeed, we did a survey of all the universities in the province of Ontario—and are coming ill-prepared or unprepared. The post-secondary institutions are having to give them upgrading courses in literacy, and are also having to provide them with math programs, numeracy programs, in order that they can become involved in the program of their choice at university for which they are not prepared when they get there. We're going to have to address that problem.

We need to make sure that our elementary and secondary school curricula are such that these students leave our schools at the end of grade 12 with the literacy and numeracy skills and that we not be asking our universities in particular to provide make-up during the summer or an introductory course in the fall in order that that student is qualified.

The other thing I would say to you is that it's quite a shock to a student who has received a high grade as they exit secondary school to find out that they're not prepared for that math program once they do get to university, or they don't have the literacy skills, so we've got to do a better job.

But I want to talk about the Second Career program. This was a program that was advertised. I just have to tell you that I think my office has dealt with probably several hundred people who had high hopes when they lost their jobs, in the manufacturing sector in particular. I've indicated to you that in the region of Waterloo we have some of the same high statistics as we do elsewhere in Ontario, and probably Canada. But these people thought they could enter the Second Career program.

They went through about eight months of applying, trying to find a job that they had to be able to demonstrate was going to be in need in the future. Many of these people were at the end of receiving their unemployment insurance. They were people with families. They thought that last September they were going to get into Conestoga College in my community, in particular, and they thought that they were going to be given the financial resources to support them. At the last moment, they were told that the program was oversubscribed and there was no money.

I have never seen such pain, such hurt, such devastation, such depression, as with the people who either physically visited my office or wrote me, e-mailed me, called me. In fact, I would say to you that I have never seen the two women in my office who deal with constituents in the state that they were in. They worked beyond the regular hours. They tried to follow through on each and every case and see if there wasn't some way we could help those people get into the program. Really, it was unbelievable.

In fact, some of the comments that we heard from people—it was despair. One person was on the verge of suicide. Some people realized that with the UI, the unemployment insurance, running out, they were going to have to go on welfare, and you know what it means to go on welfare. You basically have to get rid of anything and everything that you own. These people were going to find it really difficult to continue to pay the mortgage on their houses and support their families.

We had the program. We had people with high hopes. They thought they could retrain for a second career. Then, as I say, the program was oversubscribed, and there was no more money left.

In September, the government said that they would probably introduce it again, but what did they do? They changed the rules. When the program was finally reintroduced in December, people who qualified under the old rules no longer qualified. They were no longer eligible for financial, educational and training support. We have the devastation all over again. We have the shock.

Again, their hopes had been raised. They had been told in September, "We're going to reintroduce the program," but they weren't told that the criteria was going to change. You know what? We have to be honest with these people. We need to be better able to determine how many people are going to require retraining and post-secondary education, and we need to provide the funding because these are the men and the women who support the children in the province of Ontario.

I urge this government: This has to be a priority for you. I hope that, in your throne speech next week, you will have programs that are going to support the unemployed. I hope that those who qualified under the original rules will still be grandfathered because, really, to have raised their hopes and dashed them is very, very unfair.

These are some of the other priorities that this government needs to deal with. But I want to end with a few questions. I want to ask the government: How will you pay the operational costs of this program? How will you pay for the additional physical spaces that are going to be required in two thirds of our schools? When will you actually roll out a plan of implementation so that we can see what schools in what communities will qualify each and every year? How will you ensure that the students who most need the program because of circumstances are eligible and provided for?

It's much like the Healthy Babies, Healthy Children program where you take a look at students, you identify those who are most at risk, and then you provide them with the support necessary.

Also, how is this government going to explain to families who aren't going to have access to the program this year or next year, or the year thereafter, that they're going to have to continue to pay for child care but their neighbours and their friends will not? There is no equity. There is no fairness. That's a huge issue.

I suspect that this issue will actually grow, and I believe that people are going to see that there probably wasn't enough thought given to how this would be rolled out into providing access to those who need it the most and in a way that it would be perceived to be fair.

I want to conclude my remarks at this time. I again want to just mention that I do support this program in principle. I look forward to committee, and I think that as a result of having committee, hopefully we'll hear from the public and there will be some good recommendations that come forward. Hopefully, at the end of the day, this program will be the best that it can be for the students and the parents in this province.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Cheri DiNovo): Questions and comments?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Without a doubt, members of the NDP support the idea of full-day kindergarten, the idea of expanding and extending the daycare system in this province, the education system.

But we are very troubled, very worried by what we are hearing increasingly from the daycare sector, that daycare centres that have financial stability and sustainability when they're providing care for four-year-olds and five-year-olds, for whom there was only half-day daycare—those daycare centres are finding that their economics are coming unglued, that they don't have the base with which to provide the care for two- and three-year-olds and infants, that their economics have been profoundly shaken.

I think that this government has to look at the simple reality of what's going on in the daycare sector and say, "We can't essentially sacrifice daycare for toddlers in order to fund full-day kindergarten for four- and five-year-olds." We need to have that full-day kindergarten, but we also need the full funding for child care right through the age groups, from birth on until full-time education, after-school and preschool programs, so that our children get the full advantage of education, from the very beginnings of life, in a quality way and continuously in their experience through school.

So I'd say to the government, look again at the Pascal report, look at his recommendations to bring in a full range of child care from zero up, and don't make the mistake of reallocating dollars from daycare centres that need it now to pay for this new program. Put the dollars in that are necessary to make sure that this program functions well, in a high-quality way, but don't rob the smaller children to make sure that this program can function.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Cheri DiNovo): Questions and comments?

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I welcome this opportunity to provide a few comments on Bill 242, full-day learning in our school system. Research data to this date has clearly pointed out that children who get an early start in the education system perform better in our education system and have a greater possibility of being very successful in life. I believe our government is doing the right thing by investing in early learning for our children. I think it's good for the parents and I think it will be good for Ontario as time goes on.

In my own riding of Scarborough—Rouge River, I'm getting several schools, and I've got to tell you, with the people that I represent, which is the working class—where many moms and dads have to go to work on a daily basis to provide for the family—many kids in my community cannot take full advantage of the programs that exist today, an example being the early childhood centres that were built a couple of years ago with provincial and federal funding. That is because mom and dad are not home to take them to the program and the program requires parents' participation.

This program will definitely meet the needs of my community because it provides access to everyone. That is an important thing in a community such that I represent, because it'll give the children an early start and it'll give them a chance to succeed in life. And somewhere down the road, some future government—maybe not this government—will probably realize the real fruits of this investment that the government of Ontario is taking today.

It takes leadership to make decisions like this, and I think our government is doing the right thing.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Cheri DiNovo): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jim Wilson: As usual, my colleague from Kitchener—Waterloo did an excellent job of explaining that, no doubt, this program will be popular and is popular with many parents and families, but we simply can't afford it at this time. We need to concentrate on getting jobs in this province and not spending $1.3 billion or $1.5 billion or maybe even much more than that on a brand new program that, in my 20 years, I never had an e-mail about, I never had a letter about and no one ever asked me for it. They never expected the state would look after their little babies.

The daycare operators in my riding aren't very happy. I have a memo to me from yesterday from Joy Parks. She's my constituency assistant in Collingwood. Gail Ardiel, owner of two daycares in my area, dropped into my office in Collingwood to advise us of additional problems with full-day kindergarten. I'll just read the memo:

"Locally, Stayner's Clearview Meadows Elementary School has been chosen as a full-day kindergarten site. Gail owns a daycare in Stayner. This new full-day program will result in losing her four- and five-year-old children to the school system. Also, Gail currently runs the before/after school program for the area and now with the full-day kindergarten, she'll lose that income too. She has approached the elementary school to ask if she could do the before/after school program" for them, "but they refused, saying they would staff it themselves.

"Because Gail has a licensed daycare,"—she actually has two—"and some of her spaces are subsidized, she was hopeful that the ... full-day kindergarten program would open up new subsidized child care spaces." That isn't the case. "The county of Simcoe currently has a freeze on child care subsidies, and because they're over budget (the province has not increased the funding), no new spaces will open.

"So, this full-day kindergarten will result in Gail possibly having to close her doors because of lack of children. Plus, the county won't be able to assist other families in the area with child care subsidies."

As has been mentioned by my honourable colleague, you really messed this one up for daycare operators across the province.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Cheri DiNovo): Questions and comments?

Mr. Peter Shurman: I'd just like to add my voice to comments with reference to the dialogue on Bill 242 and the comments made by my colleague from Kitchener—Waterloo. This is an interesting bill, in the sense that if you look at it and isolate the issue from cost concerns—what the province should be doing versus what the province can be doing—it sounds like a pretty good idea. Who wouldn't want to provide these kinds of services to younger children? Obviously, the report that the bill is based upon recommended doing just that. Mr. Pascal is an educator of some repute.

Interestingly, however, the recommendation of that report was not to put teachers in charge on an all-day basis and incur even larger costs on the basis of doing that.

However, that's what the government has chosen to do in a time where we can ill afford the program, much less those additional costs. That's the thing that, I think, we have to focus upon. If you take a look at the fact that we're about to receive a new provincial budget in the middle of what we'd like to charitably describe as a post-recessionary period, when we're not really out of the woods yet and we're looking at an estimated debt of $25 billion this year, another $20 billion next year and more the year after that, with a total debt of $200 billion, what are we doing looking at new programs?

I've heard from people all over the province about this particular issue. As I started out saying, on the face of it, it's a great issue; timing—very wrong. I liken it to a family that has a particular amount of income coming in, and they have to decide at a given point, probably around January, whether or not they're going to get that Caribbean vacation. But if they have X dollars and that Caribbean vacation is going to cost Y more, it has to wait for next year. I fear that this decision is being made absent that thought.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Cheri DiNovo): The member from Kitchener—Waterloo has up to two minutes to respond.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I thank the members from Scarborough—Rouge River, Toronto—Danforth, Simcoe—Grey and Thornhill. I think that, overwhelmingly, the principle of the proposal for full-day kindergarten is well received, but we're also increasingly hearing concerns. There's a lot of uncertainty about the impact and the fact that the government didn't bother to get it right.

The government didn't bother to do the consultations with the people in the province of Ontario, whether it was the daycare operators who now are seeing their livelihood threatened, and as a result some families throughout the province may see an erosion of daycare spaces because, as my colleague pointed out, the municipalities aren't putting in any more money, so it could well have an impact on the younger children. But the government didn't bother to take a look at that impact.

As well, we have parents throughout the province who are faced with some uncertainty and are feeling that access to the program is unequal in that there isn't a plan of implementation.

I pointed out that there are about two thirds of the schools in the province that don't have the physical space. The government hasn't spoken to how they're going to provide the space.

It's great to make an announcement, but when you do make an announcement, make sure you know what your total cost is. Make sure you know what it's going to cost each year. Make sure you know how it's going to be implemented. Make sure you provide some certainty to parents throughout the province as to when and where they can expect the program to be available. And, at the end of the day, make sure that at this point in time in the history of this province you can afford it.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Cheri DiNovo): Further debate.

Mr. Paul Miller: I'll be splitting what time is left with the member from Nickel Belt.

Our major concern is not the "what" but the "how" and the "how long." We want this done right the first time. Boards like the Toronto District School Board have already expressed concerns about whether or not the funding being provided by the government is adequate. The government's five-year rollout of the program will be uneven and not equitable. A five-year rollout period is quite a long time and will leave thousands of children out of the program. If this government runs true to form, five years will become 10 years.

The loss of four- and five-year-olds will have a significant impact on daycares. The overhead for four- and five-year-olds is much lower than for younger children. This will increase daycare costs and result in closures or increased fees for the parents of younger children still in the daycare system.

We also have concerns that some boards will provide full-day service to a school that has not received funding in order to remain competitive if the other board in the community offers full-day in its schools. This happened in Sudbury. This competition between schools in the same area could prove to be a significant problem for boards. Also, if a school sets up full-day learning without government funding, where is the money coming from? What other programs will have to be cut?

Some of the provisions that are taking place: The McGuinty government has announced the funding for full-day kindergarten. The goal is to provide 35,000 students by 2010, 50,000 students by 2011 and full implementation by 2015—over 200,000 students. The cost will be $200 million in the first year and $300 million in the second year, rising to $1.5 billion annually in 2015-16—quite a challenge for a government that has a $25-billion deficit.

The government claims that 25% of schools already have the class space for full-day kindergarten; our numbers are closer to 35%. There will be one certified teacher and one ECE, early child care worker, in each class.

The class size is going up, not down like the government claims, to an average of 26 students from 20. A lot of the early education teachers and teachers have their hands full with 20 as it is, and some of them need extra for kids who need extra care. They're having problems servicing them now.

Before- and after-school care will be provided on a needs basis for a fee depending on the available space. I guess we're on competition level again.

Stakeholder positions: The teacher federations support the announcement. CUPE supports the announcement as the first step in a long-term process:

"The best way to keep our eyes on the prize is to involve all concerned parties in the implementation of this new program. That means parents, schools, school- and community-based child care agencies, ECEs and teachers and the unions that represent them. Particularly, the province must take care not to disrupt existing child care programs as we go through the transition to an integrated, seamless day"—Sid Ryan, the new head of the largest Canadian labour—sorry.

M me France Gélinas: The Canadian Labour Congress.

Mr. Paul Miller: The Canadian Labour Congress.

CUPE now has concerns about the disruption of existing programs.

The McGuinty government continues to make highly publicized announcements that are long on media and short on substance. We totally support the concept of all-day learning, but we expressed many concerns when the government rolled out this program, and this piece of legislation does little—I repeat, little—to alleviate our concerns and the concerns of parents and care providers around our province.

The announcement commits a fixed sum of money to the creation of full-day kindergarten classes in Ontario. The actual mechanisms to make it happen are not specified. There has been a serious lack of attention to the actual implementation of this program.

We've waited a long time for this, and many families will wait another five years. The weight will put many children behind, assuming that it will be rolled out fully in five years, which I doubt.

Will the funding for the initial rollout be distributed equitably across the province or will it go where there is space? Will the programs approved in the first few years be needs-based or just space-based?

We are concerned that the class size of 26 is an average and are concerned that the class sizes may become too large, like many of our current grade 4 to grade 8 classes where there is no cap. An average of 26 means that many classes will be higher. Even with two adults, there are practical problems caused by having 30 four-year-olds in one space. You have to consider snacks, nap time, washroom accompaniment etc.

Parents expect this to be all-day learning, not all-day babysitting. From an instructional point of view, the large numbers will limit learning. Many parents will discover that their children did more learning in the daycare they were in before this program existed.

My wife was a kindergarten teacher—she's retired—and she used to tell me that around 1:30 in the afternoon the little ones were asking for mommy, they were tired, they wanted to go home and their attention span was zero. So I don't know how they're going to deal with that to keep the kids active and not tire them out. Are they going to have extra naps? I don't know what they're going to do, but they certainly haven't addressed this problem.

Speaking from experience, all-day kindergarten is a long day for a four- or five-year-old. It used to be a long day for me even in high school; I wanted to get out of there myself. I'm not quite sure how they're—

Hon. John Gerretsen: That explains a lot.

Mr. Paul Miller: I did get out occasionally.

Interjection: You're still suffering.

Mr. Paul Miller: Yes, I'm still suffering.

Charles Pascal called for an Early Years division in the Ministry of Education to develop and implement a coordinated policy around child care. We are sure that this announcement stops well short of the completely integrated child care plan that Pascal put forward.

We are still awaiting the details of the actual form the typical class will take. We want to see the actual distribution of workload between the teacher and the ECE. The government is dumping all the details on school boards and teachers' federations, and there are few specifics in the bill to alleviate the concerns felt by many of these groups.

Many boards are already claiming that the government is not providing adequate funding to pay the going rate for ECEs. The government's pitiful—I repeat, pitiful—education funding formula already places boards in the position of having to take from one program to pay for another. The question now is what programs will have to be cut to pay for an inadequately funded all-day learning program.

Consideration must be given to the potential loss of revenue for daycares, which may put them at risk or drive up costs to parents whose children remain in daycares.

There have also been suggestions that daycares should be allowed to lower standards and increase the number of children permitted per caregiver to cope with the changes. How will this affect the boards that already have full-day kindergarten, like most of the French boards in the province?

Madam Speaker, I could go on for a long time, but I'm now going to pass off my last couple of minutes to the member from Nickel Belt, who has great concerns about this herself.

M me France Gélinas: Il me fait plaisir d'ajouter ma voix aux commentaires qui ont été faits ce matin au sujet du projet de loi 242, le projet de loi qui va créer la maternelle et le jardin à temps plein pour les enfants de l'Ontario.

Bien que le but dans son ensemble soit quelque chose de bien, là où on a des inquiétudes, c'est vraiment l'impact de cette nouvelle initiative du gouvernement sur les enfants plus jeunes, ceux qui dépendent du système des garderies.

Certainement, mon collègue vient de le dire ce matin : l'impact est considérable, et il semble que les économies qu'on devait faire au niveau des garderies servent à financer ce qui va se passer au niveau du jardin et de la maternelle. Malheureusement, on n'a pas regardé quel est l'impact sur les garderies. On voit dans les journaux partout que de plus en plus de garderies ne sont plus viables; elles doivent fermer leurs portes. On a vu à Windsor que c'était le cas. La même chose se passe dans mon comté, où des garderies n'auront plus suffisamment d'enfants pour rester ouvertes et n'auront plus suffisamment d'argent pour payer les factures.

Ça ressemble un peu à payer un programme pour les enfants de quatre ans sur le dos des petits enfants d'un an, de deux ans, de trois ans. Je ne pense pas que c'est quelque chose que veulent ni les parents, ni les Ontariens et Ontariennes non plus. Il faut une balance dans tout ça; il faut s'assurer que les recommandations du D r Pascal sont prises dans leur ensemble pour la petite enfance—

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Cheri DiNovo): Thank you. It being 15 past 10, I declare that this House stands recessed until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1016 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Peter Shurman: Good morning. I'd like to introduce a number of Jewish students from the University of Toronto who are here with us in the Legislature today to observe question period and to meet with various MPPs. Welcome to Josh Rosen; Josh Moskowitz; Casey Benchimol; Liat Ben-Choreen; Jesse Braun; and Lindsey Lustig.

Hon. John Wilkinson: Good morning. I'd like all of our colleagues to welcome visitors to the House today as part of Toronto 101, an annual event that's organized with the farmers from my riding and surrounding ridings, who spend a day in Toronto understanding Toronto's issues, because our members, of course, go to our riding to learn about agricultural issues. We have over two dozen visitors here today, and they'll be observing question period before we go out to Scarborough—Guildwood.

Mr. David Zimmer: I too would like to introduce some Jewish students from the University of Toronto, Ryerson and Hillel here in Toronto who are visiting the Legislature today: Adam Solomon; Mitch Reiss; Laura Herman; and Rabbi Aaron Katchen. Welcome to the Legislature today.

Mr. Gerry Martiniuk: I have the family of page Quinton Lowe here today. The parents are Gordon and Tamara Lowe; the grandparents are Marion and George Stewart; the grandparents on the other side are Barry Lowe and Judy Currier; the aunts and uncles are Brian and Mary Ecker; and an additional uncle, Carl Ecker. Welcome to all.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The Minister of Energy and Infrastructure.

Interjection.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess I do have introductions.

I've got introductions on behalf of page Julia Louis. Her cousin Sonya Louis is here. Sonya's with her grade 10 civics class from Whitefield academy—and they're in the public gallery. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I didn't realize that; I do now.

Well, that doesn't look like their class up there; they must be on their way.

ORAL QUESTIONS

HEALTH CARE

Mrs. Christine Elliott: My question is for the finance minister. Yesterday, when you were asked why a record number of Ontario patients are crossing the border to get the health care they need when they need it, you said, "Fewer Ontarians than ever have to do that." But numbers don't lie. The number of patients crossing the border to get timely health care has gone from slightly under 2,000 to slightly over 12,000 patients per year under Dalton McGuinty.

Why would you say fewer Ontarians have to get American health care?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I welcome the opportunity to clarify. I think the member opposite needs to understand that the number does not refer to patients who are going out of the country, but rather, a good portion of that is specimens that are going out of the country, particularly for genetic testing.

We have made some real progress when it comes to repatriating surgeries that are done outside the country. Particularly, we've made terrific progress when it comes to bariatric surgery. There was a time when very little bariatric surgery was performed here, and patients did go to the States for that surgery. We have now invested $75 million to bring those patients home.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: There's a distinction that's made there without a difference. The actual question here is the difference between the facts and what comes out of the mouths of the McGuinty Liberals.

Minister Duncan said that fewer patients than ever are crossing into the US to get MRIs, cancer care and cardiac procedures, but the numbers have grown so much that a whole industry of Dalton McGuinty's health brokers has popped up. The number of patients crossing into the US to get the care they need when they need doubled since your 2007 throne speech alone. You had to know this, so why did you say that fewer patients than ever are crossing into the US to get health care?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Again, I do acknowledge that there is still work to do when it comes to providing care right here. Bariatric surgery is an area where we have made terrific gains. It's better for the patients, not just because they get the surgery here but because they get the care ahead of time and the post-surgical care. With something like bariatric surgery, it's very important that we think of it not just as a procedure but a series of initiatives that provide the best possible outcomes.

We are moving forward to repatriate bariatric surgeries. We're moving forward with a plan to bring back some of the genetic testing that has been sent out.

It's the right thing to do, and we're doing this in an aggressive way.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: It just points to the fact that Ontario families are right not to trust what comes out of the mouths of the McGuinty Liberals.

To get the care they need when they need it, the fact is, Ontario families either have to live in a border town or contact one of Dalton McGuinty's health brokers. Don't take my word for it. On November 26, the Minister of Health told the House: "There has been a dramatic increase in out-of-country health care provided and covered through OHIP." The Minister of Finance was sitting right beside her when she said it. The facts haven't changed since then, but you said that fewer patients than ever are going to the US anyway. Why would you have said that?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: When it comes to repatriating procedures here, we are taking important steps. One example that I'm reminded off by my seatmate is angioplasty that was done in the States and is now being done in Windsor.

New cancer care and drug treatments will save $15 million in care for people who did previously have to go out of country.

I remember a time when the Conservatives sent pregnant women to Buffalo to have their babies. I think we've made an important improvement, and we will continue to do more.

FOREST INDUSTRY

Mr. Peter Shurman: My question is for the Acting Premier. Dalton McGuinty's throne speech just cannot be believed. In the 2007 throne speech, he said he would help the forestry industry. If that were true, then northern Ontario wouldn't be facing a court decision this week that will see US Georgia-Pacific buy the assets of Grant Forest Products for 30 cents on the dollar. That will kill about 1,500 direct and indirect jobs.

Acting Premier, why did you say you would help the forestry industry when Grant Forest Products' dire situation shows that you haven't?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: It's important to note what we say in a throne speech and then what happens subsequently by the government, with or without the support of the opposition parties.

We said in our 2007 throne speech that we were going to reduce ER wait times, and we have. We said we were going to lower wait times for surgical procedures in hospitals, and we have. We said we were going to—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Simcoe North. Minister?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: We said that we were going to eliminate taxes across the board for so many businesses, and we are moving to do that. We said that we were going to lower those class sizes, and we did that. In every initiative that appeared in our throne speech, we have moved to make that happen for the people of Ontario, regardless of the greatest recession that we've ever seen.

Yes, we know that there is more work to do in forestry. There is more work to do in economic development. But this member in particular knows full well that we are as aggressive as ever in promoting Ontario businesses around the world—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Shurman: The minister clearly doesn't know what I'm talking about. On the forestry file, it's devoid of notes. This is urgent. If the fire sale is allowed to happen, Engelhart will be badly hurt, Timmins will be decimated, and it will mark the 63rd mill that will be closed under your watch.

Some 1,500 jobs, families and communities that rely on the jobs could be saved by your acting. You have the power to intervene. You have the power to cut the red tape that would allow Grant Forest Products to access the well-funded, underutilized forest sector loan guarantee program. You have the power to save these families, these communities and this historic company. Will you do it?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: To the Minister of Forestry.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I think it's important to remind the member that Grant Forest Products is in CCAA, which as you know is a court process, and it would be inappropriate for us to interfere with a court process. Having said that, I am aware—we are all obviously aware—of the sale of Grant Forest Products' Engelhart and Earlton facilities to Georgia Pacific. We know that Georgia Pacific has been meeting with local municipal leaders and the community and that they are, indeed, committed to running the Engelhart facility at full capacity. That's a very important point.

We do, indeed, understand that this is a very challenging time. Ownership changes are a very difficult part of the process for all communities, but our objective is to promote and to maintain a sustainable forestry sector in the province of Ontario. That's our goal, and that's what we hope will be the end result of the situation.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Mr. Peter Shurman: While this government has forgotten about its promises to the north, it handed Ford Motor $81 million for 757 jobs that only may be created. Meanwhile, Grant Forest Products represents a made-in-Ontario business valued at over a billion dollars and the impending loss of 1,500 jobs right now. This is all about priorities in the jobs-starved north. There is $300 million still sitting in the forest sector loan guarantee fund. Will you commit to a no-cash investment in our own people, a homegrown business, Ontario forestry technology, the resource-rich north, or do we sell our birthright to Georgia Pacific for 30 cents on the dollar?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I think the member knows that the court has received three bids. The court-appointed monitor is making decisions in that regard. I know that there is a consortium of northern business people who have also expressed an interest in Grant's assets, and I am confident that the court will give appropriate consideration to that request.

Let me remind the member as well that we are taking measures to put Ontario's wood back to work. We've got a wood supply competition presently under way—we've extended the date for that to March 31 for proposals—11 million cubic metres of wood is going to be put up for bid, and we want to see that wood put to work. We are doing a review of our forest tenure process, which I think can bring about a reform about the way that we do allocate licences and price wood in the province of Ontario.

We recognize that there are many challenges. I represent a riding that has faced those challenges, and I can tell you that we're very committed to seeing a return to prosperity for the forestry sector in the province of Ontario.

PATIENT SAFETY

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Minister of Health. Today Laurie Johnston announced she'll be going to court after an unnecessary mastectomy. She's not the only woman this happened to. When a mistake like this happens once, it is a tragedy. But when it happens more than once, it is absolutely unforgivable. These cases in Windsor have brought to light growing concerns about pathology in this province.

Is the minister finally ready to look at the way that pathology is practised here in Ontario?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I appreciate the question. What has happened in Windsor is certainly a wake-up call for all of us. I want to start by expressing my sympathy for the people who have been affected by this and their families.

I want you to know that we are taking this issue very seriously. The hospital is doing a review. The College of Physicians and Surgeons is doing their review. But I didn't think that was enough. I have appointed three very highly regarded investigators to go to Windsor, to understand what happened there, to advise us on the lessons that we need to learn from this. My highest priority is to ensure that those who are concerned about their own personal pathology results get the assurance as quickly as possible. I've asked them to make that the top priority. We do need to look at this system, and that is exactly what we are doing.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: A wake-up call? Laurie woke up without one of her breasts. That's what happened in this province.

Pathologists themselves say that there's a patchwork of protocols around their profession right now. New pathologists are ready to work but can't find jobs, and others are saying that they are severely overworked at the same time. Some hospitals have standards and others have none.

People who go to a hospital in Ontario need to know that they're getting the best possible care. Why is Ontario using a patchwork system that leaves some pathologists unemployed while others struggle with unmanageable caseloads?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I want to take this opportunity to assure the people of Ontario that they can be proud to be part of what is, in my opinion, the best health care system anywhere. I would not trade Ontario's health care system for any other in the world.

When a situation arises, it is incumbent upon us to learn what lessons can be learned and to act on those lessons. That is why we have appointed the three investigators. I have asked them to focus first on Windsor, and then, based on that information, if they think the right thing to do is to go beyond Windsor, we will do that.

It's the right thing to do. We want to continue to improve patient safety in this province, and that's why we've taken the steps that we have taken.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: People are already very concerned about what they are seeing happening in their hospitals, but these tragedies risk shaking people's faith in our entire health care system. A patchwork system that leaves some pathologists overworked while others are unemployed makes no sense at all.

When will the minister finally set standards for transparency and province-wide protocols to ensure that this never happens again?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I think that all of us in this House have a responsibility to be responsible when it comes to talking about issues such as this. I think the leader of the third party maybe ought to speak to the health critic, her caucus colleague. Yesterday, France Gélinas made a very wise statement when she said we ought to be careful not to incite panic. Let's learn from Windsor and go from there. The member opposite should speak to her health critic.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is to the Minister of Finance. Last week, when I asked the minister if he could tell us how much the HST is going to cost the average family for gas at the pumps, he said, "No, I can't." However, in an FOI request, an appeal document, the Ministry of Finance actually states the opposite. It says the minister was told how much the HST on gas is going to cost consumers. In fact, I'll send the document over to him via this page so it will remind him of what's in that document.

Will the minister now, as he reviews that document, admit that he knows the answer to my question, and will he simply provide it?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I don't know what the price of gas will be on July 1. Now, I notice that you've removed the date on the document, so it could be considerably out of date. I think this document goes back about a year and a half. The price of gas, depending on the specific date, is lower than it was then. But, no, I can't.

What I can tell her is that we have put together a package of tax reforms that will create 600,000 new jobs. What I can tell her is that the personal tax cuts for Ontarians kicked in this past January 1. I can also tell her that 93% of Ontarians will pay less taxes than they did before. And I can also tell her that—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. I just remind the honourable members to reflect on the words of former Deputy Speaker Mr. Johnson, who reminded members that when two people were standing and the Speaker was one of them—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: In blocking our FOI requests trying to find out how much people were going to be paying at the pumps, the Ministry of Finance wrote this: "These figures ... could ... give rise to a negative effect on consumer confidence. A decrease in consumer spending would in turn have an adverse effect on economic growth and job creation."

Does this minister agree with his staff that telling people exactly how much they're going to be hosed at the pumps is going to trigger an economic collapse?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The member uses an undated document that is taken out of context and not part of the broader FOI that she got. She is trying to be, I think, too clever by half. If she read—

Interjection.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Taxes are being cut; spending will be stimulated. That is precisely why we put together the package we did. I suspect that's why Hugh Mackenzie and the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives rejected—absolutely, categorically rejected—your claim that this is a tax grab. They said, no, it's not. You don't have to believe me. You don't have to believe the chamber of commerce. You don't have to believe Ontario's business community. I invite you to endorse Hugh Mackenzie and the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives and their document entitled Not a Tax Grab After All.

It's about jobs. We have a plan. We're going to create those jobs. That member and her party are—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Start the clock. Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Gee, all that bluster from the minister. All I was asking was the impact the HST is going to have on people at the pumps—a simple question, and he can't answer it.

The minister is deliberately withholding the basic facts about the HST. People have the right to know how much the HST is going to cost them, and he has that information.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I just ask the honourable member to withdraw that comment, please.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I withdraw, Speaker.

The minister's department claims that releasing this information "could be injurious to the financial interests of Ontario and the ability of the government to manage the economy."

Interjection: I didn't hear her withdraw.

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: Give her a polygraph test.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. Minister of Economic Development and Trade, please withdraw the comment.

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I withdraw, Speaker.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Does this minister really believe that telling people how much more it's going to cost them at the pumps could actually bring Ontario to the edge of economic collapse, or is it more about protecting the interests of the governing party?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The member only needs to read the document she sent me, where it says that what she's saying takes everything out of context.

I'd remind her that, as recently as a year ago, she and her party advocated for a 1% increase in the provincial sales tax.

They have no idea about how to create jobs. All they can do is take one line out of one document where they remove the date, torque the answers and ignore the largest personal tax cut for the lowest-income Ontarians in the history of this province.

We will defend this plan. We will create jobs. We will give the whole truth. We will tell the whole story. What that story is is a bigger and better Ontario when this package and the work of this government is fully implemented, as opposed to the old, tired rhetoric of a party that has no idea about how to deal with a deficit, much less—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. New question.

HEALTH CARE

Mrs. Christine Elliott: My question is for the Minister of Health. In the 2007 throne speech, Dalton McGuinty promised Ontario patients that they would get the health care they need when they need it. But here's what the Ontario Health Quality Council says: Waits for MRIs are three to four times longer than what you said they would be. An industry of Dalton McGuinty's health brokers, like EcuMedical and International Health Care Providers, has popped up to whisk Ontario patients to Michigan or Colorado for an MRI the same day.

If Dalton McGuinty's health brokers were part of the plan all along, why didn't you mention them in the throne speech?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I will be the first to thank the Ontario health quality group for the work they are doing. They do help us make the strategic investments that we need to make.

We have a committed strategy to reduce wait times in this province. We have achieved remarkable success. There are areas where we need to do better, and shortening wait times for MRIs is one of those areas where we've made some improvement and we need to make more. We publicly report what MRI wait times are across the province. People can, if they wish, take the time, go online, check the website and see what MRI wait times are in their area and across the province.

We've really accomplished something quite terrific, because we—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: The fact is that cuts are being made to health care across this province. Frankly, Ottawa patients don't trust the minister when she says that cuts at their hospital are going to improve the quality of health care. Only in Dalton McGuinty's Ontario do cuts, wait time increases and health brokers equal improved care.

The Ontario Health Quality Council also says that half of cancer patients who need surgery wait longer than what is medically acceptable.

Maybe before you get rid of the Ombudsman he'll have a chance to report on the Niagara LHIN and say something about Kaleida Health, which has taken out billboard ads that brazenly say, "Fast-track your medical procedure here," with an arrow that points to Buffalo.

You didn't mention this in your last throne speech. How can Ontario patients trust the McGuinty Liberals when they only tell half the story?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Talk about telling half the story. Let's talk about what we've done to improve health care in this province. Almost 900,000 more Ontarians have access to family care; 2,300 more physicians are practising in Ontario now than in—

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Me?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Yeah, you.

Minister.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: There are more than 5,600 international medical graduates practising in Ontario, which represents almost a quarter of the physician workplace. We've opened a new Northern Ontario School of Medicine, and by 2013, we will have doubled the number of doctors graduating every year. We've established 170 family health teams that now care for more than two million Ontarians, including over 300,000 that did not previously have access to a family doctor. We've hired 10,000 more nurses—and I would be pleased to go on.

The health care system is measurably and significantly—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

MUNICIPAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is to the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure. Two weeks ago, a Brantford Expositor reporter stumbled in on a meeting between the member from Brant, a mayoral candidate, a city councillor and Tony Perruzza, the man behind the big mega-developer First Urban. The meeting took place in a private room in Brantford's Olde School Restaurant.

Asked about the meeting, the member from Brant said that he was there on behalf of the Premier and as the new parliamentary assistant for the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure.

Can the minister tell this House what instructions he gave to the member from Brant and what the member from Brant said on his behalf while lunching with this developer?

Hon. Brad Duguid: This isn't kindergarten and parliamentary assistants are entitled to take meetings with whomever they wish. The member from Brant doesn't check with me before he takes meetings. He's a grown-up, he's an experienced politician, and he works very hard for the people of Brant. This is a member of provincial Parliament who has very much distinguished himself here through things like private members' business, where he's worked even with members on the opposite side on some very important initiatives, and a member who has worked very hard for his community.

I can only assume that when the member takes meetings, they're meetings that he believes are part of his responsibility, either as an MPP or as a parliamentary assistant. He's totally entitled to do that.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: The member was very clear to the press that he was there on your behalf and on your instruction. The member for Brant told the reporter that his private meeting was about the area's so-called green energy hub.

But people of the community are questioning that claim. After all, First Urban is in the middle of an OMB battle. They are trying to build a suburb on farmland outside of Brantford. To make their development work, they need water and sewer infrastructure, and a way around the growth planning and restrictions—exactly the thing that the Ministry of Energy and Infrastructure oversees.

Why can't the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure tell this House what his parliamentary assistant is promising developers behind closed doors?

Hon. Brad Duguid: That's almost laughable. But let me tell you something: My parliamentary assistant Dave Levac is working very, very hard on promoting the Green Energy Act. He's very committed to promoting economic development in the region of Brant. We're committed to working with him in those endeavours.

Indeed, it's because of the Green Energy Act that we've attracted 16,000 jobs coming to this province, a $7-billion investment. It's because of the Green Energy Act that we're going to grow 50,000 jobs in green energy over the next three years. That's something that my parliamentary assistant is working hard to try to promote; that's something I'm proud to work hard to try to promote; that's something that will certainly be a legacy of this government. Fifty thousand jobs over three years in the green energy economy: That's something we're very proud of.

BIODIVERSITY

Mr. Glen R. Murray: My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Minister, your ministry is responsible for administering Ontario's vast crown land resources and ensuring the sustainable management of all of the flora and fauna within Ontario. Protecting Ontario's amazing biodiversity of species—cougars, trilliums, sturgeon and other at-risk species—is in the interests of all Ontarians.

Ontario's biodiversity is something we can all be proud of, but very often people do not know first-hand about the species that your ministry works daily to protect. How does the ministry communicate with the public about protecting Ontario's biodiversity for future generations to enjoy?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I'd like to thank the honourable member for the question. He is absolutely correct: Protecting Ontario's biodiversity is in all of our interests. I think many Ontarians, including the members here in this Legislature, will be shocked to know that within a 100-kilometre radius of this Legislature, there are 100 species at risk in Ontario.

My ministry strives to make sure Ontarians and the industry are aware of biodiversity. We have an annual presence at the Toronto Sportsmen's Show and we work with partners like the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters to make sure that those who do interact with our biodiversity are aware of the world around them.

There's one initiative that I'm particularly proud of. Just last week, my ministry introduced the Ontario endangered species of the day widget for computers. I'd be happy to elaborate about the widget in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Glen R. Murray: My thanks to the minister. I understand that the Ministry of Natural Resources's species-at-risk widget has set the Internet on fire, and the popularity has surprised those in your ministry who helped to design and develop it. I know many watching at home will know first-hand what a widget is and I am sure there are many who have already downloaded it. However, as Ontarians have differing levels of computer literacy, is the widget for everyone?

Would the minister share with our honourable colleagues what a widget is and tell our colleagues assembled here what makes it so unique?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I'm very proud of the work and the creativity that my ministry staff have gone through to develop this piece of software. I too did not know what a widget was, but I am told the widget is the first of its kind for the Ontario government, and it is for everyone.

After originally sharing the species-at-risk widget through my Twitter account, it was subsequently picked up by apple.com, the company behind the famous iPod. Today, the widget is still featured on apple.com and is the eighth most popular—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

JOB CREATION

Mr. Norm Miller: My question is for the finance minister. Dalton McGuinty doesn't have an economic plan that can be trusted. In his 2007 throne speech, Dalton McGuinty said he had a five-point economic plan to create jobs, not to be confused with his five-point jobs plan in budget 2009. But neither plan was credible. One hundred and forty thousand jobs were lost last year under the McGuinty Liberals. Now you say, "Trust us. Our five-year economic plan will create jobs." Why should Ontario families believe you?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The member might have missed it: There was a global downturn in the economy since the last throne speech. You might have missed the meltdown in international financial markets. You might have missed the downturn in the auto sector. You certainly voted against helping keep those jobs in Windsor and Brampton and Oshawa. You might have missed the challenges with our tax system, because one day you'd say you'd support the HST and then the next day you wouldn't support it.

This weekend the leader of the Conservative Party is in Ottawa, saying, "Spend more money on hospitals," and on Monday they release a report saying, "Free spending."

We have responded to a changing global economy with a clear vision, working with our federal counterparts to create jobs and a better economy for Ontario. That member and his party have no plan, no idea what to do other than to say, "Wasn't it good under Mike Harris—"

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Start the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That's not helpful, member from Cambridge.

I will remind the honourable members that if they choose to interject in the proceedings, it is much more helpful to the Speaker that they be sitting in their seats.

Supplementary.

Mr. Norm Miller: Perhaps I should remind the finance minister that Ontario lost 200,000 jobs before the recession started.

There are two things Dalton McGuinty likes in a plan: The number 5, and not being pinned down on creating jobs. In budget 2009, the Premier said he would create 146,000 new full-time jobs and 100,000 student jobs this year, but he didn't. He also said he would create 168,000 jobs next year, plus 50,000 so-called green energy jobs, 800 Ubisoft jobs, 16,000 Samsung jobs and 600,000 HST jobs. Dalton McGuinty knows how to promise a million jobs; he just don't know how to create them.

In the interest of accountability, do you attribute the 140,000 lost jobs to the five-point economic plan, the five-point jobs plan, the five-year economic plan or all of the above?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Who I will attribute the 600,000 jobs figure is to is the Conservative Party's expert witness at last year's SCOFEA hearings, Mr. Jack Mintz. That's not us; that's them. That's their expert witness.

I have to tell you, the member opposite wants to go back to closing 39 hospitals. They want to go back to calling nurses hula-hoop workers. They want to go back to an era when there was no freedom of information or accountability for the hydro companies. We don't want to do that, and I know the people of Ontario don't want to do that.

I am pleased, however, that the member opposite, just last week in committee hearings, finally agreed with our tax policy. He said, "We're in favour of those reductions for ... small business and the corporate tax rates." It's unfortunate that he and his party voted against it. It's unfortunate that they don't have a plan for the future. All they have is an eye for the past, a past that has been—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Ontarians have waited six years for the McGuinty government to deliver a long-term housing plan. Now, just before the plan is due, the original minister resigned from cabinet and key staff have been dismissed. The former parliamentary secretary went so far as to express his dismay publicly, stating that Mr. McGuinty's moves mean "that expertise and continuity is now lost." Housing groups are extremely concerned that the report will be delayed or reduced in scope. They want to know—it's simple: Will this plan still be released in June?

Hon. James J. Bradley: I thank the member for the question. Usually, I wouldn't thank them for their question, but this is a good opportunity to speak about something we're really pleased about, and that's the kind of consultation that took place for this plan. I have had an opportunity to receive input from a number of different sectors in this regard. We are, at the present time, assessing all the information that came in as a result of that consultation and are developing this long-term strategy.

That hasn't prevented us, as you know, from allocating some $622 million for affordable housing and encouraging the federal government to do the same. There's some significant progress being made.

I know that when your leader moves a person from one seat to another, or from one position to another, I wouldn't comment on that because that's the prerogative of your leader, and I have a lot of respect for her. When she makes those changes, I'm not here to comment—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: I take it that the answer is that the report will not be released in June.

When a parliamentary assistant says something is "really, really wrong" in a ministry, there are real problems. Rents and house prices in Ontario are the least affordable. We have the greatest deficit in affordable housing. Per capita, we invest the least in housing.

There is widespread concern that the ministry lacks resources to tackle a housing crisis and to deliver a strong plan. The Housing Network of Ontario has called for a budget commitment to ensure that Ontario delivers at least 10,000 affordable housing units this year. Will the minister agree to this?

Hon. James J. Bradley: First of all, the member has been a member of this House for some period of time now, and she would know that I can't say what's going to be in the budget ahead of time; that's something that you will have to wait for the budget for. I know she's a patient person and is prepared to do that.

I can assure her that all of the input that we've received, including the input from those who have had the position of parliamentary assistant in years gone by—parliamentary secretaries are very, very helpful federally and provincially in providing information. I can tell her that all of the information from the consultation will be used and that we've already committed $1.2 billion to housing in this province. I don't want to say that's far more than the NDP did, because that's history and we're in different circumstances. But the fact is, it is more than the NDP committed.

I know she'll support our program. I'm confident she'll support our program when she sees the plan put before—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS

Mr. Ted McMeekin: My question is for the Minister of Education. Minister, today we know it's more important than ever to ensure that students are successful in school in order to be successful in finding work and to become valuable members of the Ontario workforce. But Minister, sometimes obstacles come into the way of high school students and their goal of graduating and moving on to post-secondary education or the workforce.

We know that statistics and studies have shown that people who graduate from high school are more likely to earn more money, less likely to receive unemployment and social assistance payments and less likely to be in trouble with the law. With these factors in mind, our government has placed increased emphasis on engaging students so they can stay in school and graduate. Minister, could you enlighten us as to some of our recent successes with respect to the student success strategy?

Hon. James J. Bradley: Good question.

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: It is a very good question, because I know everyone in this assembly is absolutely focused on ensuring that we're doing everything we can as a government so that our young people can be successful in school. That is why we have made the investments that we have and that is why we have introduced some new programs.

What I can say is that we have developed new programs that give students more ways to accumulate credits. We have been making significant progress since 2003, and we have also invested $1.5 billion to support programs such as the specialist high skills major program, such as dual credits and expanded co-op.

Our investments are having results. Since 2003, we have had more graduates in our schools. In fact, we have 13,500 more students graduating from high school than when we came to government.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Ted McMeekin: I'm particularly interested in the specialist high skills major initiatives and how they seem to grow a different set of specialty courses each year. This year in my riding of Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, we launched a specialist high skills major in aviation and aerospace.

I'd like the minister to let members of the House know where these programs are being offered, what other innovative majors are being offered by Ontario high schools and how many students are participating in this innovative new approach to keeping students in school and making sure they graduate.

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: We have had some tremendous success, and what I can say to the members of this House is that all 70 school boards with secondary schools are offering specialist high skills major programs. In fact, I was at T.A. Blakelock in Oakville this morning with my colleague the member from Oakville and I had the opportunity to see first-hand a specialist high skills major program at work.

We offer this specialist program in many areas. I know we have visitors here from the agriculture community; we are offering specialist programs for students in the area of agriculture, in the areas of arts and culture, the environment, health and wellness, as well as aviation, aeronautics and energy.

This type of programming has been very successful. We now have over 20,000 students who are choosing this type of program so they have an understanding and a sense of what is—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

AIR QUALITY

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: My question is to the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure. Energy use in Ontario has shown a steady decline since 2005, when the peak surge was 27,000 megawatts. In 2009, the peak surge was just over 22,000 megawatts, and the years in between have shown a steady decline.

Minister, with declining demand, is it really necessary to build the Oakville gas-fired power plant?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I appreciate this question because it gives me an opportunity to publicly thank and commend our colleague Kevin Flynn, the MPP for that area. I want to thank him for his efforts to ensure that the voice of his community is being brought to this chamber. I want to thank him for his efforts to work very closely with me to ensure that any of the concerns being expressed in this area about that project are being brought to our attention.

I can assure the member opposite and I can assure the member from Oakville that I will continue to listen very carefully to the concerns being expressed. We will certainly not ignore those concerns. We respect the voices from the community and we'll do all that we can to ensure that any of the concerns raised are fully addressed.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: Today, hundreds of Oakville residents are coming to Queen's Park to protest the construction of one of the largest gas-fired power plants in North America. The Oakville-Clarkson airshed is already one of the worst in Ontario, causing the highest incidence of childhood respiratory diseases in the province. And yet a full and independent individual environmental assessment has not been done on this site.

Minister, your government has said that it cares about health and safety. How can you move forward with this power plant without an individual environmental assessment?

Hon. Brad Duguid: As always, the party opposite simply refuses to change their policy. They wanted this province to stick to dirty coal. They haven't changed their policy one bit. We are for change. We recognize the move to diversify our power mix. We recognize the need to diversify our energy supply. We recognize the need to attract green energy to this province. We recognize the need to invest in the modernization of our nuclear capability, because that is emission free.

We're determined to move from coal, and there are some tough decisions that will need to be made going forward. But I can assure the people from Oakville that we will make sure their voice is heard, we will listen to their concerns, and we'll ensure that we move forward in a responsible but decisive manner.

HOSPITAL FUNDING

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Minister of Health. I've always enjoyed good literature, but I'd like to suggest that we abstain from relying too heavily on Orwellian language when we talk about our health care system. Yesterday, the minister told reporters that 190 jobs that she's cutting at the Ottawa Hospital will somehow improve patient care. "We absolutely expect that quality of care will improve," the minister said in a story headlined: "Cuts at the Ottawa Hospital Will Improve Care, Minister Says."

I'd like to think not even this government would suggest that slashing 190 health care jobs somehow improves care for Ontario families. Would the minister like to clarify her comments in that regard in the House today?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I will remind the member opposite that I actually don't write the headlines; in fact, the headline did not reflect what I said.

Having said that, it's time to get the facts straight here. Reports that the Ottawa Hospital is laying off large numbers of nurses is simply not true. Like hospitals across the province, the Ottawa Hospital is making the changes that are necessary to improve efficiency, while at the same time continuing to improve patient care. There are almost 200 nursing vacancies at the Ottawa Hospital right now. While 48 nurses may be affected by the upcoming changes at the hospital, there are more than enough vacancies to absorb all of those changes.

Dr. Jack Kitts, the CEO of the Ottawa Hospital, has said that "very few if any nurses at TOH will leave involuntarily."

It's important that we work together to make the changes that are necessary in our health care system—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: While the health minister weaves a wonderful fairy tale about health care getting better, the fact is that this government's cuts will make health care worse in this province. Families in Ottawa are rightfully worried when they learn that several hundred health care jobs are being eliminated, at a time that the system is already so strained that surgeries are being deferred and services are being cut back. Families in Ottawa deserve much, much better than this.

Will the minister commit today to putting Ottawa families first and rethinking these disastrous job cuts that will only compromise their health care?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I would like to invite the member opposite to actually review the facts on this case. I think it's important to repeat that, according to Jack Kitts, "very few if any nurses ... will leave involuntarily.'"

We are not cutting services to health care. In Ottawa, we've increased funding to hospitals by $408 million. We've provided money to bring down wait times and support services outside the hospital.

It might be helpful to just review the NDP record. The NDP actually closed 8,000 hospital beds. The NDP cut the number of medical school spaces, contributing greatly to the physician shortage that we have worked hard to repair.

The upcoming changes at the Ottawa Hospital will actually increase the number of beds for acute care patients. It will maintain current level of patient service for—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

ANIMAL HEALTH

Mrs. Liz Sandals: My question is to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Food safety and quality are of great importance to the agriculture sector, as well as the broader general public. Agriculture representatives from both the poultry and livestock sectors have been asking for some time for implementation of animal health legislation like that seen in Alberta and Quebec.

Coming from Guelph, I've had the opportunity to speak with experts from the Ontario Veterinary College, the Ontario Agricultural College and the Guelph Food Technology Centre, and I know that protecting farm animal health is important both in terms of food safety and the economic well-being of the agriculture industry.

Minister, could you inform the House about the economic benefits of the Animal Health Act that was proclaimed into force earlier this year?

Hon. Carol Mitchell: Thank you for the question. The livestock and poultry industries are vital contributors to Ontario's economy, and because of this, we have taken steps to protect these sectors.

The Animal Health Act is the result of requests and consultation with our industry partners, and that certainly bears repeating. This new legislation embraces industry competitiveness by providing a framework for traceability measures to improve market access opportunities that better align with other provinces. It protects animal health and the economy.

The act includes legislative powers that provide for: prevention measures, including a framework for enhanced efforts to protect animals from hazards, proper animal handling at specific premises and proper use of medicines; detection, including disease monitoring at specific locations; and appropriate actions to control or mitigate the effects of—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Liz Sandals: Ontario's agri-food sector is one of the province's leading industries, contributing more than $33 billion to the economy every year.

To keep Ontario food safe, we must all take steps to produce, process, handle and store food in a way that prevents or reduces any danger to human health. Mistakes and missteps not only damage a farm or a processor's reputation, they can cost lives. That's why everyone in the agri-food chain, from those who grow and process our food to those who sell it—everyone needs to participate.

I've spoken with farmers who appreciate the direction that our government has taken in partnering and working closely with them to help meet the challenges facing the sector. Could the minister please provide this House with more information about how the Animal Health Act makes Ontario food safe?

Hon. Carol Mitchell: Protecting livestock and poultry is not just important for the economic well-being of the industry. We know there's a link between animal health and human health, and protecting our food animals can help us protect ourselves.

The Animal Health Act is just another tool for Ontario's food safety system, one which already includes comprehensive inspection systems that make sure that unhealthy animals don't enter the human food chain. It helps to address animal health issues that could have an effect on public health.

We know that having healthy animals is a first step to having quality food products, and this legislation adds an additional level of security to the system. This benefits the public by increasing consumer confidence which, in turn, benefits the industry.

Food safety strengthens our agricultural community, and the members on that side of the House just simply don't get it. We know the linkage is strong. We have to ensure—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

HOSPITAL FUNDING

Mr. Ted Arnott: My question is for the Acting Premier. Last year, on June 10, the Waterloo Region Record reported the Premier's statement that hospital expansion might be included in a 10-year construction plan, which was to be unveiled last fall. It's now the beginning of March of the following year. When does the Premier really plan to unveil his now 11-year construction plan for hospitals?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: To the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I'm very happy to have an opportunity to talk about the extraordinary expansion we've made in our health care infrastructure right across the province. We are committed to going forward. We are currently undertaking the important work that's necessary to develop the next 10-year capital plan. But I think that anyone would say that across this province there has been an extraordinary improvement in the infrastructure of our hospitals and our health care system.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Arnott: I'm not satisfied with the answer, and I understand that there are some 70 communities waiting for this government to get moving on their hospital redevelopment projects. Groves Memorial Community Hospital in the township of Centre Wellington is one of those 70 hospitals. We've been working for more than seven years, and our patients are, well, running out of patience. What assurances can the Acting Premier provide my constituents that the Groves project will finally move forward, and when?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I appreciate that there are many members in this House who are hoping to have capital projects approved in their constituency. When we came into office, there was a massive health infrastructure deficit across this province. We, after years of neglect, undertook ReNew Ontario, a five-year, $30-billion infrastructure plan. We've seen over 100 major hospital projects underway in this province. We've increased health care spending by 45%. We are committed to continuing to improve the infrastructure of our health care system, and we are taking the time necessary to do that right.

TERMINATION AND SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

Mr. Howard Hampton: My question is for the Acting Premier. A few weeks ago, the McGuinty Liberals suddenly found $200 million for the underfunded Nortel pension plan, just after a by-election was called in the Ottawa West riding, where thousands of Nortel retirees live.

My question is: Can the Acting Premier tell us when the McGuinty Liberals will show the same concern for the 2,000 laid-off workers of the Buchanan Group of Companies in northwestern Ontario, who are legally entitled to $30 million in severance and termination pay under the laws of Ontario, and who have received nothing?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Thank you very much—

Hon. Dwight Duncan: She said "finance."

Hon. Michael Gravelle: "Finance"? Go ahead.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: There are a variety of challenges, as the member well knows. This government—I know the Minister of Labour and our officials, as well as the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines—will be involved. We did, in fact, move to protect Nortel pensioners. I think it's important to say that today. I regret the NDP opposed that, I regret that you would see that as something we shouldn't have done in this climate. We have taken great caution moving forward on pensions and benefit issues to protect vulnerable workers, and we will continue to do that in all instances.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Howard Hampton: What's striking is, the McGuinty Liberals showed no interest in the retirees or ex-workers of Nortel until a by-election was called in a Liberal riding. But what's even more outrageous is that over the last three years, the McGuinty Liberals have given over $120 million in grants, loans and other financial benefits to the Buchanan Group of Companies. Oh, yes—the Buchanan Group of Companies has given tens of thousands of dollars to the Liberal Party.

So my question is this: While you were handing out $120 million to the Buchanan Group of Companies, did anybody over there—the Minister of Forestry, the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Natural Resources—say that $30 million of it should go to the workers who were entitled to severance and termination pay under the laws of Ontario? Did anybody speak up for the workers?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: In fact, we have worked with a number of companies in the north. The member opposite tries to have it both ways. For the last four years, he has been telling us to help the forest and pulp and paper industry. He has been telling us to work and to put money into that. Frankly, he was right about that. That's why we have responded with a variety of programs in the forestry sector, and we will continue to do that. That is why we worked with the Nortel pensioners for more than a year. This didn't just happen. In fact, had we triggered something sooner, it would have been really devastating for Nortel workers.

We will work with those workers and any displaced worker. That's why we have a jobs plan. It's about jobs; it's about a fair shake for working people. We'll continue to work with our partners in labour and business to help build the best economy we can for the people of Ontario.

LANGUAGE TRAINING

Mr. David Zimmer: My question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. A recent report by Dr. Rick Miner, who is the former president of Seneca College in my riding of Willowdale, stresses the need to incorporate under-represented skilled professions into Ontario's job market and to ensure that Ontario's future labour needs are met. Quite specifically, Dr. Miner focused on skilled newcomers in our province who continue to face barriers to employment. One of the key obstacles he cited was a lack of appropriate language skills.

I know the government is committed to helping newcomers. I've read the report. It does underscore the opportunities at stake and the need to ensure that newcomers have language skills. Minister, what is our government doing to ensure that immigrants get the language skills they need to specifically integrate into Ontario's workforce?

Mr. Frank Klees: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: My point of order relates to the literally hundreds of written questions that have been tabled with the House. As you will know, on prorogation, all of those questions die.

I know that in the motion for prorogation, the Premier has stated clearly that he intends not to disrupt the business of the House. Given that it was probably an oversight that those written questions were not included in the order to carry over into the new session, I would ask for unanimous consent for a motion that would carry over all of those written questions that have been tabled so that we don't have to reset the starting date for those questions. I would like to have unanimous consent to make that motion.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The honourable member from Newmarket—Aurora seeks unanimous consent to carry over the questions. Agreed? I heard a no.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Pursuant to standing order 38(a), the member from Thornhill has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to his question given by the Minister of Economic Development and Trade concerning Grant Forest Products and Ontario's forest industry. This matter will be debated today at 6 p.m.

There being no deferred votes, this House stands recessed until 3 p.m.

The House recessed from 1139 to 1500.

ESTIMATES

Hon. Monique M. Smith: I have a message from the Honourable David Onley, the Lieutenant Governor, signed by his own hand.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The Lieutenant Governor transmits estimates of certain sums required for the services of the province for the year ending March 31, 2010, and recommends them to the Legislative Assembly. Dated March 2, 2010.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

AIR QUALITY

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: I'd like to thank the residents of Oakville who came out today to protest on the front lawn about the building of a power plant in their community. There were young people there. There were old people there. There were all kinds of residents of Oakville there, including Pinball Clemens, whom I was very pleased to see. There were over 1,200 people on a Tuesday at noon, and they filled the front lawn. They were wondering why you would build a power plant of this magnitude that is three kilometres from 11,000 homes, 16 schools, five seniors' homes and eight daycare centres. In the middle of all this, there's going to be a power plant.

Along with the building of the power plant, there's a serious question about the air quality. The Clarkson-Oakville airshed is already seriously impacted with the highest incidence of childhood respiratory diseases in the province. An individual environmental assessment has not been done on this site. How this government can claim to be environmentally sensitive without an individual environmental assessment of this plant—the need for power is somewhat questioned.

Minister Duguid said he would listen to the people of Oakville, but he wasn't there to hear them, and he's continuing not to hear them.

The people of Oakville are to be congratulated.

PUBLIC SKATING EVENTS

Mr. Bob Delaney: In January, I shared a public skate with an estimated 250 constituents in western Mississauga at the Vic Johnston arena in the heart of Streetsville.

Co-sponsored with my federal counterpart, member of Parliament Bonnie Crombie, constituents were invited to a free skate and hot chocolate and cookies. As some of my legislative colleagues know, I'm celebrating my 50th season of playing hockey. It's very special to lace up the blades and skate with residents, young and old.

The public skate promoted healthy activity for families in the area and encouraged our constituents to meet face to face with their federal and provincial representatives. In fact, the provincial skate was such a success that we decided to host an encore event this month. Along with Mississauga Ward 9 city councillor, Pat Saito, I'm going to host another family skate on Sunday, March 21, from 2 to 4:30 p.m. at Meadowvale 4 Rinks at Turner Valley Road, near Mississauga Road and Erin Mills Parkway.

I invite our western Mississauga residents to join Councillor Saito and me at Meadowvale 4 Rinks. You don't have to be a good skater; you just have to come out. And if you do want to come out and skate, Councillor Saito and I would be very pleased to come and have a skate with you.

ONTARIO BUDGET

Mr. John O'Toole: I'm pleased to rise and bring to the attention of this House some of the great work of Clarington's voice of business for the 2010 budget. Sheila Hall, executive director of the board, has shared with me the Clarington Board of Trade's pre-budget submission to the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs—and I congratulate her on making that presentation.

The Clarington Board of Trade represents about 360 businesses in my riding of Durham. Its president is Elaine Garnett. The businesses, along with me, are advocating for completion of the 407 and new-build nuclear, as well as supporting serviced lands to support investments in Ontario in that region. That is why one of the budget priorities for the Clarington Board of Trade is to develop programs to support the serving of employment lands and, indeed, jobs. The board of trade is optimistic that additional serviced land will build on existing infrastructure investments and further strengthen the local economy.

I would urge the McGuinty government to take the advice of the Clarington Board of Trade on this initiative. That will create jobs and investments not only in Clarington, but, indeed, throughout Ontario.

I've always found that working with small business to help grow the econo