December

1, 1997

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIII No. 41

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (L. Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin today's proceedings, I have been asked by the

Chair of the organizing committee for the Christmas Lights Across Canada

ceremony, to remind hon. members that the ceremony will take place on Tuesday,

December 2, 1997 at 6:30 p.m. on the steps of Confederation Building and that

there will be a reception following that in the lobby of Confederation Building.

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, at approximately 1:50 yesterday

afternoon, gas detector equipment near the base of the utility shaft on the

Hibernia platform detected a small quantity of gas and the general platform

alarm was sounded.

In response to the alarm, personnel on the Hibernia platform

immediately enacted the approved emergency response plan which is part of

Hibernia's overall operational plan. Within twenty-five minutes of the alarm

sounding, all personnel were moved to a muster or safe area of the platform. At

around 5:00 p.m., yesterday, HMDC began a precautionary transfer via helicopter

of non-essential personnel to the Bill Shoemaker drilling rig, which is located

forty kilometres southeast of Hibernia. In total, ninety-three personnel were

transferred from the Hibernia platform before the precautionary down manning was

halted at approximately 7:30 yesterday evening.

The successful management of this situation can be

attributed, I believe, to the comprehensive program of drills and exercises

which all HMDC employees participate in on an ongoing basis in order to ensure

high levels of competency of all possible emergency situations on the platform.

To date, Mr. Speaker, HMDC has conducted numerous exercises

to test the adequacy of their emergency response plan and will continue to do so

in order to maintain this high level of competency.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add, that while the safety of

personnel on the Hibernia platform was at all times HMDC's foremost concern, it

is important to point out that during this situation, personnel family members

were kept informed of the situation throughout.

Mr. Speaker, the gas leak has been stopped and the

ventilation fans were used to extract the gas from the utility shaft. Officials

from my department and the Department of Environment and Labour have been in

contact with HMDC and C-NOPB, the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board.

The Hibernia operational plan which was approved by C-NOPB

and is in effect on the platform contains safety and environmental management

systems designed to mitigate, measure and control hazards. The C-NOPB, which

regulates operations offshore on behalf of the Federal and Provincial

Governments, continues to be in close contact with HMDC on this matter to ensure

that the cause of the problem is understood and that appropriate corrective

measures are taken. Officials from the C-NOPB and Mr. Harvey Smith, President of

HMDC, have assured me personally that this will be the case.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, disaster on the coasts of

Newfoundland and Labrador is no stranger to the people of this Province and

certainly yesterday raised some concerns for people in the Province but I would

like publicly to applaud for how the situation was handled by management

yesterday. It is obvious, from discussions that I have had with industry

officials, that the management themselves erred on the side of caution and acted

swiftly.

Mr. Speaker, it reminds us that, in an emerging oil and gas

industry, disaster could be around the corner. Our concerns for health and

safety of the workforce, especially on our offshore, should be paramount. I ask

the minister, in his capacity, on behalf of his government, that they continue

to ensure that health and safety measures are in place, that new techniques, in

terms of emergency response, are developed and that these new techniques are

implemented immediately.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, as I announced on Friday of last

week, government has decided to re-examine the arming policy of the Royal

Newfoundland Constabulary.

As has been the case in the past, this issue of critical

importance is receiving significant public interest. Therefore, government has

decided to give all those interested in this issue a full and fair opportunity

to express their views.

I am pleased to announce today that government has decided to

hold more formal consultations on this issue, and will consult with the

Opposition to form a Select Committee of the House of Assembly.

It is our hope that this Committee, made up of members from

both sides of the House, will begin consultations on the RNC firearms policy

with affected communities early in the new year, namely, St. John's, Mount

Pearl, the northeast Avalon, Corner Brook, and Labrador West, including

Churchill Falls.

I must point out, Mr. Speaker, that government has not made

any decision on this issue, and will not make a decision until we have heard

from the people in those areas policed by the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary.

We believe that the Chief and members of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary,

our professionals in the policing field, should be given an opportunity to

demonstrate the need for wearing side arms as part of their uniform. Similarly,

we believe the public should have an opportunity to make their views on this

very important issue known to government.

We will encourage the Select Committee of the House of

Assembly to begin public consultations early in the new year, and to report back

in a timely fashion. In addition, the Department of Justice will continue to

consult with the various town councils and community organizations as necessary

throughout this re-examination process.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to see that the minister is following and

accepting the recommendations of the Opposition, that this very important issue

be dealt with in a public forum. Secondly, it erases some confusion, Mr.

Speaker, because we had the minister saying last week that there would be no

public consultation and the Premier of the Province saying there may very well

be. So at least, the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, now have a clear

understanding that there will be public consultation. This is an important issue

that requires and demands public input; we are dealing with the security of the

person, we are dealing with public protection in this Province. I support the

Statement of the Minister of Justice today, and we will be more than pleased to

participate in it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to ask hon. members to join me and the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador in recognizing December 1, 1997, as World AIDS Day in

this Province and around the world.

Mr. Speaker, while less dramatic than in some Canadian

provinces, the incidence of HIV in Newfoundland and Labrador continues to climb

slowly but steadily. In fact, the spread of HIV between men and women is more

common in this Province per capita than most other places in Canada and we have

one of the highest rates of HIV infection among pregnant women.

HIV/AIDS has gradually evolved from a short-term catastrophic

disease affecting the adult population of homosexual middle-aged males, to a

short-term chronic disease of a 15-20-year duration in which heterosexual

populations of reproductive age are first diagnosed in their early twenties.

While HIV/AIDS still carries a terminal outcome, the new combined therapies

available today enable individuals to continue with educational attainment and

transition to the labour market. One of our challenges, therefore, is to

co-ordinate service delivery which increases the quality of life, optimizes

health and reduces the costs of providing health and community services.

Mr. Speaker, over the past number of years, the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador, in partnership with a variety of organizations,

agencies and individuals, has made a tremendous effort to promote HIV/AIDS

awareness, education and prevention in our homes, schools and communities.

The community health regions are playing a major role in this

effort, and it is a very important and serious issue, particularly in rural and

isolated areas of this Province. At the regional level, increasing emphasis is

being placed on high-risk youth in an out-of-school environment, with linkages

being made to addiction and mental health programs. In addition, HIV prevention

has been integrated with the new school health curriculum of the Department of

Education focusing on junior and senior high school students.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to

announce in the House today that plans are currently under way for the

Department of Health's Division of Health Promotion, in conjunction with the six

community health regions, to launch an advertising campaign early in the new

year. Television ads carrying a broad `safe practices to reduce the risk of

sexually transmitted diseases' message will be targeted toward sexually active

adolescents and young adults, and are related to the parent and mentor support

needed in decision-making and risk reductions.

In addition, Mr. Speaker, we are planning to implement a

1-800 telephone line which will be promoted on the ads and will have the

capability of directing calls back to the community health region from which the

call originates. Each region will answer their calls and respond to their own

inquiries.

You may be interested to note, Mr. Speaker, that the

Department of Health is involved in the ongoing research, prevention and

treatment of HIV and AIDS-related illnesses. An important new study called the

Community Health Resource Project is currently being undertaken by researchers

at Memorial University. The Provincial Department of Health has joined forces in

partnership with Memorial University, the Newfoundland and Labrador AIDS

Committee, the Provincial Department of Human Resources and Employment, and the

Federal Department of Health, which is providing funding for the project, in a

joint effort to combat the spread of the virus.

Researchers are collecting data about health services,

community and social assistance, and other support services utilized by

HIV-positive individuals. The results of the study will be used to assist

community agencies and health planners in developing future strategies for

improving our provincial social and health policies relevant to HIV and AIDS.

Before I conclude, I would just like to add that I was

fortunate to have participated in the St. John's 7th Annual Walk for AIDS which

took place on September 28 at Quidi Vidi Lake, organized by the Newfoundland and

Labrador AIDS Committee. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say that $35,000 was

raised that afternoon. These proceeds went into a special fund, being

administered by the Committee, which is expressly for the women, men and

children of our Province who are infected and affected by AIDS and HIV.

Mr. Speaker, while a cure has yet to be found, there is good

reason to be optimistic about our future. Clinical advances and new treatments

continue to offer hope for individuals infected with HIV. While the message of

prevention cannot be overstated, it is encouraging to hear that deaths due to

AIDS have begun to decline.

As we mark World AIDS Day in this Province, we carry with us

the urgent message of education and prevention, along with the universal desire

for a cure. I ask each Member of the House to do his or her part by joining the

people of our Province today, December 1, in marking World AIDS Day in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank

the minister for sending me a copy of her statement before the House opened

today.

We too, Minister, on this side of the House would certainly

like to join with you and government and other agencies in the Province to fight

this very dreaded disease. Since being elected and becoming the health critic

for this side of the House, I have had the opportunity over the last two years

of attending the candlelight ceremony, once at St. Theresa's Church and this

year, of course, at Cochrane Street United Church, where as a matter of fact the

Premier's wife was one of the speakers concerning AIDS.

As well, there was another lady who spoke who has been

affected by this very dreaded disease. She talked a great deal, this particular

lady did, about the impact it had on her and her family, and the fact of waiting

to find out - because she had two very small children - as to whether this

disease had really affected her children, or whether it didn't. Thank goodness,

at the end of the day both of her children weren't affected.

I had the opportunity to talk with her afterwards and she was

very concerned because - and this may be something the Minister of Health or the

Minister of Education may be interested in. She had actually offered her

services to speak to various high schools in the Province and she had never been

taken up on her offer. She had a great deal of knowledge concerning this

disease, and I think nothing I guess would hit home to high school or junior

high school students as much as a person who has first-hand knowledge of such a

disease.

We on this side of the House today, Minister, join with you,

and encourage you as well to act as quickly as you can on the Krever report

concerning the tainted blood issue, because many people in this Province have

been affected as well. So we join with you today in recognizing World AIDS Day

and we urge you to put whatever resources from your department that you can into

this very deserving project.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, with the continued reduction of

trade barriers and the rapid advancement of technology, the world truly is

becoming a global marketplace. It has been said many times that we will never

prosper by selling to ourselves. Our companies must continue to look outside the

Province for new opportunities if our economy is to diversify and grow.

Today, I am pleased to briefly inform my hon. colleagues of

the results of a recent trade mission to Iceland that I had the opportunity to

lead on behalf of the Province.

The mission follows a visit in October by a representative of

the Canadian Consulate General Office in Reykjavik. The lady who came presented

to our local industry associations and met with individual companies to assess

the benefits of a return trade mission.

I was joined by representatives of seven companies from our

Province. While the company representatives experienced varying degrees of

success, all have deemed the trip to be a valuable initiative. Some of the

companies are presently doing business in Iceland and many have established

valuable contacts during the trip, which they anticipate will lead to future

business.

Mr. Speaker, Iceland has a landscape such that it is

extremely difficult to grow trees. As a result, the vast majority of forest

products used in the country are imported. This presents an export opportunity

for companies from our Province involved in this particular sector.

Mr. Harvey Short of Nu-Way Kitchens, which manufactures solid

wood doors and cabinets, participated in several meetings with potential

customers and was requested to ship kitchen cabinet displays to several

companies. He expects that his export sales will be increased by 10 per cent as

a result of the trade mission. He is also pursuing the possibility of partnering

with another company in Iceland.

Mr. Chris Hewitt of Classic Woodworks, which manufactures

solid wood mouldings, participated in meetings with the same seven companies as

did Mr. Short. He was also asked to ship samples of his product. In min-January,

he will be sending a container of mouldings to Iceland, an order that he secured

during the trip.

Mr. Jerome Flynn of Hi-Rise Maintenance presently employs six

Newfoundlanders on a project replacing transmission towers for radio stations in

Eider, which is located in northern Iceland. As a result of this trade mission,

he identified two projects for which he will submit proposals this spring. He

has also indicated that the trip will result in an expected increase in export

sales by next year.

Mr. Ken Butt of Lotek Marine Engineering was pleased with the

outcome of the trade mission and was involved in several meetings with Icelandic

competitors. He anticipates future visits to the area, with future business

opportunities existing in Norway.

Glen Glavin of Nautical Data International, which is a

product and service provider for the fishing and shipping industries. This

company supplies electronic maps and charts for ships bridges. Of the four

companies he met with, Glavin has indicated that a strong possibility exists to

obtain work from all of these companies, plus an opportunity for technology

transfer agreements with another. NDI estimates that it may have increased its

export business and expects to have a proposal for additional business completed

after Christmas.

International Communications and Navigation, otherwise known

as ICAN, provides the software and hardware for the ships bridges that access

the information provided by NDI. Banks Scott represented the company on the

mission and indicated that there is potential to access over 200 fishing systems

in Iceland. With over 750 ships in Iceland and over 2000 in Norway, both NDI and

ICAN see repeat visits and return visits from Iceland in the future.

Newfoundland Containers, which makes packaging containers,

has been doing business in Iceland for five years. During this particular

mission, Kevin Fitzgerald has increased his market capability with increased

product lines and anticipates that the company has increased its export sales by

fifteen to twenty per cent as a result of this particular mission. In Iceland,

he established valuable business contacts with representatives from Norway and

Africa.

Mr. Speaker, while the Department of Industry, Trade and

Technology was restructured in April of last year, it was clearly stated that we

would work closer with industry associations to achieve mutual objectives. I am

pleased to say that one of the participants in this mission was Mr. Burf

Ploughman, Executive Director of the Alliance of Manufacturers and Exporters of

Newfoundland; he also found the trip to be beneficial and deserves credit for

promoting manufacturing and exporting sector capabilities that exist in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I also took the opportunity to promote our

attractiveness as a competitive investment location and the capabilities and

expert residents in our Province. I spoke to the Icelandic Chamber of Commerce

about the results of the recent KPMG study that placed St. John's as the lowest

cost location among forty-two jurisdictions in Canada, the United States and

Western Europe. I also spoke with reporters from two local daily newspapers and

the national television station and I met with the Minister of Agriculture and

the Minister of Industry to discuss trade issues that impact on other companies

doing business in Iceland in the future.

Mr. Speaker, we believe there is potential for more business

in Iceland and other countries. We will be following up on this mission and

actively encouraging other companies that are export-ready to consider pursuing

markets outside of the Province.

At the conclusion of the Iceland mission, I went to Ireland

to follow-up on initiatives stemming from the MOU that was signed by Premier

Tobin and the Prime Minister of Ireland during a visit in November of 1996.

In Ireland, government officials, union leaders and

representatives of the business community play a key role in facilitating

economic development by cooperatively working together. There is much to learn

from the Irish experience and based on the meetings in which I participated,

there is a genuine willingness to help us in any way to further trade

development and partnering.

One example of this cooperation lies in an initiative we are

presently pursuing with the assistance of Mr. Kieran McGowan, whom hon. members

will recall visited the Province recently and who heads Ireland's Industrial

Development Authority. This organization has experienced an incredible amount of

success in recent years in attracting foreign investment to Ireland. We are

presently negotiating the details of an exchange initiative where an official of

Ireland's Industrial Development Authority would assess our investment

attraction efforts and provide advice on how to increase our chances of

attracting foreign investment. We would reciprocate the exchange by posting a

senior official from the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology at their

offices in Ireland to learn about their process. This initiative would provide

us with helpful insight into the high level of success experienced by the IDA in

attracting investment from all over the world to Ireland.

I also met with Mary Harney, Minister of Enterprise, Trade

and Employment and Deputy Minister of Ireland. She indicated a willingness to

provide companies in Newfoundland and Labrador access to a database of Irish

companies.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, we were provided with an overview of

the biotechnology industry in Ireland by representatives of Bioresearch Ireland.

We also met with a biotechnology company called Biotrin, which has been

successful in combining research and development activities with a strong

marketing capability. Mr. Speaker, there is another opportunity here for a

biotechnology company to jointly market our products with theirs.

Mr. Speaker, while there are obvious difference between

ourselves and Ireland, there are also deep ties and strong connections. We

believe there is a great deal to be gained by building on our relationship with

those contacts.

We will diligently pursue all opportunities associated with

our partnership with Ireland and I am confident that you will hear more details

arising out of this initiative in the future.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I am glad, Mr. Speaker, on the first page

she said she would be brief.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. T. OSBORNE: You did not forget to add anything? She

ended off by saying: she sure would hear more.

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see that the minister is pursuing

trade missions and opportunities overseas; however, I have to point out to the

minister that we are probably overlooking opportunities right here in our own

backyard. Just last week I asked questions regarding the Newfoundland Producers

Association and, Mr. Speaker, these people, the producers of Newfoundland and

Labrador feel that they are being left out; they are being overlooked by

government and they are not the only ones. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if we have

seen much benefit over the past seven or eight years out of all the trips that

government has taken to overseas countries, to Chile to China, to Singapore, God

only knows where else.

Mr. Speaker, the out-migration in this Province is a major,

major problem and if these trade missions were truly successful, Mr. Speaker,

the people who were leaving would see opportunities right here. The government

would be addressing the problem of out-migration; the government would be

addressing the problem of the highest unemployment rate in all of Canada; the

government would be addressing perhaps the highest social services rate in all

of Canada; the TAGS Program, Mr. Speaker, is ending very soon and these people

have nowhere to turn. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the minister that she look

in her own backyard at the opportunities that are available right here if

government were to treat our own producers, our own manufacturers, our own small

businesses with the ability that they are giving the overseas trade missions,

the trips abroad.

Mr. Speaker, some of our own producers feel left out; the

people of our Province feel left out and I think we should start concentrating

on what we have right here in Newfoundland and Labrador as well as the overseas

missions.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Before we move on to Oral Questions, I would

like to welcome to the gallery today on behalf of all members, fourteen students

from the Centre for Nursing Studies, accompanied by their instructors, Madge

Applin, Marcy Greene, Joanne Simms and Marilyn Haynes; along with Margaret

Turner.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health.

Last week I spoke with the family of Mrs. Muriel Fordham, the

eighty-two-year-old lady who was denied admission to the Health Sciences Centre

last Tuesday and Wednesday because there was no bed available due to what the

Health Care Corporation called a hold-up with the discharge of another patient.

Now that lady was in pain and suffering from a broken hip. I

ask the minister: Is the standard for admission to hospitals and surgery now

determined by the availability of a bed or by the severity of the medical

problem?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think on Friday, Sister Elizabeth Davis spoke very clearly

to the issue that was very pertinent to that particular institution. While I

will not speak about the specifics of the case, I think it is obvious that when

we have a number of boards and institutions, we have to rely on our CEOs and our

Chairpeople to run our hospitals through the boards and also through our

communities.

How the beds are put in place and allocated are certainly

issues that will always create some difficulty is one that was very regrettable

in this case and I think that Sister Elizabeth said on Friday, she did apologize

to the family; she did identify all the various issues that were involved with

this particular case; she has spoken to all the appropriate staff and certainly

will work with other families to always try to improve upon the waiting list and

the time involved when people have to wait for beds.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mrs. Fordham's daughter was informed that personnel at the

Health Sciences Centre told staff at the Miller Centre not to send Mrs. Fordham

until the next morning. I ask the minister - she did not make it quite clear -

was that decision made by the administration, or was the decision made by

medical professionals?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the member across the way

is asking me to speak very specifically about a case. He knows, as well as I do,

that when situations are arising like this, which require medical care, if

somebody is able to be stabilized in a bed, knowing that the appropriate

specialists are not on call in the middle of the night, rather than have any

individual waiting, a particular patient can be very safely stabilized,

maintained in their bed, knowing that the situation is stable. I think those

types of decisions are not to be made by politicians, are not made by

administrators, but are made by the very capable nurses - I am sure - who made

that type of decision.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister had no problem referring to a specific case last

week when she stated very unequivocally that decisions on health care should be

made by medical professionals.

Was the decision in this case - I ask simply - not to bring a

lady with a broken hip to the Health Sciences Centre, made by administration

rather than by medical professionals?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was not at the facility at the exact time, and I cannot go

through the play-by-play process, but I can say it is a very serious issue. It

is one that Sister Elizabeth has addressed both with the family and publicly

last week.

Whenever a situation occurs, whenever there are health staff

involved, an assessment is done by the appropriate people. Whatever the

situation is, whether in an emergency department or whether you are on a ward

when an incident happens, an assessment is done and a decision is made.

Mr. Speaker, what I am asking: Is this member asking me the

names of the people involved? Then I will go back and ask which nurses did the

assessment.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, I am not skating anything. I am

saying very carefully that health professionals make decisions; and if he wants

the names of the nurses, the names of the doctors, the name of any

administration, I will be happy to go to Sister Elizabeth and ask for that kind

of detail. But I think what is more important in this particular case is that a

situation happened which was unacceptable, which was stated to be unacceptable,

and an apology was made to the family; and all of the appropriate staff involved

have been part of a process to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening

again.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not asking that at all, I say to the minister. When the

minister made a statement here in this House - she has made it outside this

House - that decisions for such matters must rest with health care professionals

deciding who gets surgery and who gets medical attention, I ask the minister

simply - not any names - was that decision made by administration or was it made

by medical people, the decision not to send Mrs. Fordham to the Health Sciences

Centre. It is a simple question. I do not need names.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Am I to assume by the question that the administration have

no medical background or no expertise?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that answer

said it all.

While the Province is on a deliberate course to reduce beds

at all costs - there are people out there suffering because of that - an

82-year-old man was put in a room with women. The man and his family were very

upset, and the patient should not be subjected to such further anxiety and

humiliation.

I ask the minister: Does she consider it acceptable to have

men and women share the same hospital room?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have, myself, worked in the Intensive Care Unit for a

number of years where men and women were side-by-side in the same room. I have

worked in Special Care Units and Step Down Units in many other places in

hospitals where men and women are in the same room together. Mr. Speaker, I do

not know what this particular person is trying to come across with this

question, but if the need arises - if your issue is whether you have a bed that

is available, if there is a type of care that requires specialized treatment, if

a bed is required to deliver that care, then yes, it is appropriate, Mr.

Speaker, for that to happen.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will just make it

a little clearer. It wasn't one-on-one that you would get in intensive care at

all. It was in a regular room within the hospital. Is it acceptable in a regular

hospital room to have men and women sharing the one room? I ask the minister, is

that acceptable? I just want an answer. Is it yes or no?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In many

situations other than one-on-one it is acceptable for men and women to be cared

for in the same unit.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I get numerous

complaints, many recently, and even as late as today, in hospitals that people

have not available for their own personal hygiene. I spoke with a person as late

as today. There were no towels available upon the floors. He was given four face

cloths after a shower. He told me that the sheets are changed once a week on his

bed. I ask the minister: Are these the standards for personal hygiene in

hospitals or what? What are the standards for personal hygiene that we should be

following in our hospitals?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I

would ask the member across the House to point out to me the names of the

institutions where there are no towels available, and I will happily speak to

the administration in charge about this particular issue.

With respect to personal hygiene, it is a very individual

thing. If you are a level one, if you are up and around, a person will do their

own personal hygiene. If you are in bed, a person will have personal hygiene

done as required, either with some assistance or, if they are able to do it all

themselves, they will do it all themselves. If they are a level three or if they

are unconscious, they are washed and their personal hygiene is done by the

appropriate level of care provider, either a personal care attendant, a nursing

assistant, a nurse. It depends on the various routines.

However, if there is a situation which I can address, if

there is some suggestion he can make with respect to problems he has

encountered, I would be more than happy to raise those issues with the

appropriate administration to see that those shortages are taken care of.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I get dozens of

complaints. I would be delighted to give the minister the names of the hospitals

that are getting complaints on a frequent basis, I say to the minister. They

have complained to people in authority also, I say to the minister.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Minister of Government Services and Lands. Can the minister confirm that on

January 1, 1998, the Government Services Centre will be implementing an annual

fee of $115 for renewal of an electrical contractor certificate, and will he

admit if the contractor cannot afford to pay it, that he or she will no longer

be able to perform that work in Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services

and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There will be a fee

implemented January 1 for electrical contractors. On the second part of the

question, where we will determine whether or not a contractor can practise if

they cannot pay the fee, I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that any contractor out there

can afford to pay a fee for practising.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That is your assumption, I say to you, Mr. Minister.

Why would government suddenly impose a new fee on 3,000

electricians, most of whom are unemployed or underemployed, Mr. Speaker? What

excuse can the minister give for now taking another $345,000 out of the

taxpayers' pockets in this Province? Wouldn't this just basically force more

people on the social assistance rolls?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services

and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The fee that is being levied on January 1 is on electrical

contractors, not on individual electricians. If the electricians are doing

contracts they will be levied the fee if they apply for a permit.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We have seen fees, Mr. Speaker, for fishermen, bills for

cabin owners, extra costs to people without water and sewer and untold license

fees and permit increases. Who is next, the plumbers or the carpenters? Why is

government making it too expensive for Newfoundlanders to live in Newfoundland

and Labrador? Why is government forcing Newfoundlanders to live everywhere

outside of Newfoundland and Labrador rather than in the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador? Why are you forcing people out of the Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services

and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, fees are levied on different organizations; the

electricians, the plumbers and carpenters, in line with other jurisdictions in

the country where they could go and practice for the same levels.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are for the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs. A couple of weeks ago it was indicated that the RRAP program, funded by

the Federal Government and 25 per cent by the Provincial Government, would be

wrapping up this year. The minister knows, that means about 150 seasonal jobs in

rural Newfoundland. I think, last year, nearly 400 homes were improved and he

indicated at that time, in the public media, that he was aggressively pursuing

the reinstatement of the program. I wonder if he has some update that he can

give us on the federal commitment to reintroduce the program in 1998?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: No, Mr. Speaker. I am encouraged by some

comments coming from the federal minister and from some of my other colleagues

around the country but I really am not in a position to say whether or not the

Federal Government will continue with their RRAP program again for next year. I

am hoping they do. Mr. Speaker, you, along with, I suppose, every other rural

member in the House of Assembly, would certainly congratulate the Federal

Government for having Newfoundland and Labrador Housing carry on the RRAP

program for the number of years that they have. All you have to do is drive

through some of the communities around this Province to see what RRAP has done

to help especially the poor people who are living in lower types of housing. I

cannot say, Mr. Speaker, I have no idea. I am hoping that RRAP will be

reintroduced again next year. It has been reintroduced now three years in a row,

not just one. Hopefully, by continuing to put pressure on both the federal

minister and the Premier, the Province will also be making comments to the Prime

Minister in the near future about the RRAP program. So let us all hope that it

is reintroduced again next year.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition

House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister knows that of the permanent employees at

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing who administer this program, six of them have

been given their lay-off notices. I ask the minister if we should read anything

into that regarding his expectations about having the program reinstated and why

you would lay off the permanent staff? The other question would be, the 25 per

cent, approximately $850,000 that was committed by the Province in 1997: Will

that commitment stand regardless of whether the Federal Government participates

in 1998?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: Probably, Mr. Speaker, one of the most

disappointing things that I have had to do since becoming the minister of

housing, is close down my regional office in Carbonear.

MR. EFFORD: You didn't do that did you?

MR. A. REID: Yes, I had to.

MR. EFFORD: I wouldn't do it.

MR. A. REID: There was one -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: And, Mr. Speaker, this is `me' buddy!

Mr. Speaker, I had one employee from Carbonear, in fact, a

good friend of mine, who was laid off recently, yes, got his notice - is not

laid off yet.

There are five people getting their notices. They have been

directly involved with RRAP for the last number of years. The RRAP program this

year was finished and there were no other programs to be associated with RRAP

because of the devolution this year, and we found ourselves in a situation where

they have caught up now with all the referrals and necessary work that needs to

be done.

We really did not have a lot for these people to do at this

particular point in time, but we have reassured all of those people that if and

when RRAP is reintroduced early in the new year, these people will be taken back

on.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: (Inaudible) there were two.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: In regard to the funding, the hon. member

knows that is a budgetary issue, and if and when the time comes I will go back

to my colleagues in Cabinet and ask for that money again. I have no authority,

as an individual Cabinet minister, to say yes or no to that question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Mines and Energy.

Since the Voisey's Bay discovery by two Newfoundlanders in

this Province, for some time now, there has been the first air of optimism

around the Province. Everybody across the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador

was very excited about it. Since then it has started to unravel, or there seem

to be a lot more questions every day.

Mr. Speaker, in light of Inco's falling stock prices, The

Financial Post reported on Friday that the company was worth less than what

it actually paid for Voisey's Bay and is subject, of course, to the persistent

takeover rumours that have been reported in the mainland paper.

I would like to ask the minister: Have Inco and the

Provincial Government had any discussions in recent days about the implications

of this change in the company's fortune as it relates to Voisey's Bay?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the

update on the stock market. It is something I do not follow, personally.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FUREY: We have continuous discussions with Inco. The

government is not concerned at this stage, no.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte, a

supplementary.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, the minister is probably not

worried about his stocks because they are probably in the blind trust also.

Mr. Speaker, already we have seen many delays, as the

minister knows, and we cannot elude those problems that we see coming up day

after day with the situation with Voisey's Bay - the Innu, the environment and

so on - and now there is further uncertainty about this mega-project on which

the Province's economic growth projections are largely based, and the minister

knows that.

Do the government's economic projections and development time

lines adequately account for the wide range of possibilities now with Voisey's

Bay?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the government is concerned.

I am not shirking our responsibility. We are concerned. There has been a

one-year delay in this project; that gives us cause for concern. The projections

that are made by the various financial houses across the country, I think, are

very optimistic. You see what the TD Bank has said, and CIBC, and the Bank of

Nova Scotia. Everybody is heralding Newfoundland to lead the way next year in

economic growth in this country. Our own forecasters are more modest. I think

they are more realistic.

Voisey's Bay, we sincerely believe, will come on stream, but

there are an awful lot of other good things happening in the economy. The

Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology just talked about the manufacturing

sector. The high-tech sector is growing by leaps and bounds. The fishery is

reporting growth. There is growth throughout the economy. It is not just based

on one particular sector, so we are still very much optimistic.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte, a

supplementary.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, everybody feels the same way

about Voisey's Bay. We want to be optimistic and we want to be hopeful about it,

but there is a time sequence here where people hear more and more, and they

raise more questions, and so far it has been all questions. There have not been

any answers. We have asked many questions on the royalty regime, and we ask in

this House again.

I would like to ask the minister: Has he had any discussions

with Inco in recent weeks about their time frame of when they would like to see

a royalty regime in place so they can make a deal with the Province? Have they

suggested a royalty regime, and what time it should be in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, under the Mining and Mineral

Rights Tax Act of the Province they have come to us on a number of occasions and

said that they would like to have the rules of the game laid out as clearly and

as specifically and as quickly as possible, but the government does not operate

on the timetables of companies that have a huge stake in our Province in a

resource that is owned by the taxpayers. The government will operate on its own

agenda. We have a number of issues that are currently on the table now: the

environmental assessment, which is required of the mine and mill, the

environmental assessment which is required at the huge smelter and refinery at

Argentia. The aboriginal question is one we are dealing with.

We have struck what we believe is a fair agreement with the

Inuit people of Labrador. We are fast-tracking now with the Innu. We have hired

a number of experts, both in the United States and other parts of Canada, and

indeed here in the Province, to look at a series of regimes with respect to a

royalty and tax regime specific to this particular project. We are not going to

rush that, Mr. Speaker. We are going to move on our timetable, not the

company's.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture, we have run out of answers, not questions, let me tell you that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I know that recently the

Minister of Mines and Energy and other ministers have received representations

from people within the oil and gas industry, both on labour and management side,

with respect to the implementation of the recommendations of the Terra Nova

assessment panel. I will ask the minister an open-ended question: When can we

see any action from government, whatever it may be, because to date there has

been none - with respect to any public announcements anyway - with respect to

the implementations of the recommendations contained in that very important

report?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the Terra Nova panel report has

been provided both to C-NOPB and both levels of government. The Department of

Mines and Energy is assessing and reviewing each of those recommendations. Many

of them are federal in nature. There are a handful which are specific to the

Province. Those are being reviewed. Cabinet will review them, I would predict,

in the next two, maybe three weeks, then you will see some movement.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Still no answers. Mr. Speaker, part of the

problem that is highlighted in the Terra Nova assessment panel's report is the

C-NOPB itself, that it has not moved to protect Newfoundland interests, that it

has not moved to implement the spirit of the Atlantic Accord, that it has not

moved to ensure that industrial benefits accrue primarily to the Province.

Let me ask the minister this; I asked him last week and I

will ask him again: What measures is the Provincial Government taking, in view

of the Premier's own comments this summer past, with respect to the lack of

action by the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board that governs the

industry, supposedly for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians first?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I do not think we should very

cavalierly dismiss just how beneficial the Hibernia project, and indeed future

projects, will be to the Province. If you look at Hibernia and look at the

expenditures, there has been a huge percentage accrued to this Province.

Hundreds of contracts, and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology can

table them, have happened in this Province because of the frameworks that were

put in place.

Now, I will agree with the hon. member that the structure of

the Board itself has been left vacant for far too long. There are a number of

vacancies on the federal side, there are a number on the provincial side, and

indeed, the chairperson's position has been vacant for some time. We have made

recommendations to Ottawa. I will be moving on the provincial appointment very

soon. But I do not think we should write off that the parameters and the

framework within which the C-NOPB operates are not providing positive benefits

to the Province. Indeed, quite to the contrary, they are.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, nobody in their right mind,

including the member here, is going to cavalierly write off what positive

benefits have come from the Hibernia site. There have been many. I am not

interested in what benefits have come here. What I am interested in is: Have we

got what we were supposed to get, in full? That is what I am interested in. To

date we have not.

I have asked a number of times in this House, and I will deal

with one specific recommendation of that report right now. The panel recommends

clearly that the Department of Education, the government itself, put in place a

system where there would be skills in this Province that do not exist, that

would be able to take advantage of jobs that will exist, that the department put

in place plans to make that happen. To date we have seen no information where

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are going to be trained for jobs where their

skills do not exist. I ask the minister again: Will that be forthcoming, when

will it be forthcoming, and when will we see it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would care to

look at the number of man-hours that have gone in, for example, to the Hibernia

project in construction, he will see that not only were the targets met, but

they were clearly exceeded. All targets were clearly exceeded. To stand there

and say that the Board and this project and the benefits to the Province have

not accrued is just a falsity in the extreme.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Minister, I have to say for the record

again, we are not concerned about the 90 per cent of Newfoundlanders who had

employment. To say that there are opportunities that have not been missed is to

propound that sort of suggestion is not true Minister. For example: There are at

least 146 to 150 trained, technical, qualified, electrical instrumentation in

this Province that did not get jobs as a result of inaction by government.

Minister, the reason was, because the spirit of the Atlantic

Accord was not implemented. When will government move -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: If the Government House Leader will listen

he will hear the question. When will government move to implement the

recommendations to ensure that we do not just get 90 per cent, but if we are

supposed to get 95 per cent, that we in fact, at the end of the day, end up with

what we are supposed to end up with, Minister.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, it is the first time I have heard

anybody in this Legislature rise and complain about Newfoundland getting 90 per

cent of all of the benefit? I mean, it is just absolutely ludicrous to rise in

your place.

Now, was the project perfect? No. Did Newfoundland and

Labrador do extremely well? Yes. Is there a provision under the Atlantic Accord

and in particular under the mandate of the C-NOPB to capture benefits? Yes. We

are reviewing that. There were a number of glaring, missed opportunities. It is

not a perfect project but we are doing our best.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, a

supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, this member remembers that

minister when he was Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, losing a

contract in Marystown and you know what his response was? Err, err, we are going

to sharpen our pencils, Mr. Speaker, that is what that minister's response was.

Let me ask him another question, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SULLIVAN: He lost his pencil.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask him this question with respect

to another recommendation contained in that panel's report.

The panel recommends that to the greatest extent possible,

fabrication yards in this Province will be given first priority with respect to

the upcoming work associated with the Terra Nova Oil Development Field. Can the

minister inform the House, as to what action has been taken to ensure that local

industry, poised with the necessary infrastructure which we have, poised with

the competitive edge which we have, what action has government taken to ensure

that we will in fact, end up with those fabrication contracts?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FUREY: I would like to sell you for a dollar, if I

could.

Do you think I would get a dollar?

Mr. Speaker, we have to recognize that, unlike the Hibernia

project, the government negotiated under the Terra Nova arrangements. Instead of

putting a parameter, a set of parameters around industrial benefits, we opted

for the revenue side, the royalty side, the royalties coming off Terra Nova as

you look at them and look at the econometrics models that were put forward, will

give a greater yield to the Province from royalties.

We did that, so as not to put a strait-jacket around the

companies, and if you talk to industry, industry will tell you they want to

compete, they want to compete in the big world. Marystown is not afraid to

compete and they will compete and they will win contracts on the Terra Nova. The

Bull Arm site where the labour agreement was put in place with the trade

councils are not afraid to compete.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FUREY: They will compete and win contracts. The

dockyard down here with its fabrication facilities that are privatized is not

afraid to compete. I would say to the hon. member: Do not be afraid to compete.

We are not afraid to compete, we are going to compete and win contracts on the

Terra Nova project.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table for the

Houses information, the 1995-96 Annual Report of the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation and there are copies going to be made available later today.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In accordance with

section thirty-five of the Medical Care

Insurance Act, I am pleased to table the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission

Annual Report for the year ended March 31, 1997.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hereby table the report of Public Tender Act Exemptions for

the month of September 1997.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No, I have to confess, it is about four and

a half months ahead of time.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on

tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following Bills: "An Act To Amend The

Judgement Enforcement Act." (Bill No. 46), "An Act To Amend The Provincial Court

Act 1991." (Bill No. 47), "An Act To Amend The Judicature Act and the Unified

Family Court Act." (Bill No. 45).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce

a Bill entitled, "An Act To Amend the Nursing Assistance Act", (Bill No. 25).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to on tomorrow introduce the following Private

Members Resolution:

WHEREAS the sealing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador is

an important and integral part of the economy of rural Newfoundland and

Labrador;

WHEREAS seals are consuming an estimated 800,000 tonnes of

caplin, over 100,000 tonnes of small cod and countless other quantities of fish

per year;

WHEREAS costal and native people have an historical

attachment to the seal resource that has become part of their culture;

WHEREAS the sealing industry has the potential to grow in

importance as new markets for seal parts are identified;

AND

WHEREAS the people who are involved in the seal hunt

utilize humane harvesting methods in the seal carcass to the fullest extent;

WHEREAS the people of this Province have been inaccurately

portrayed as barbaric in recent anti-sealing propaganda prepared by the

International Fund for Animal Welfare;

THEREFOR

BE IT RESOLVED that the House of Assembly condemn

the actions of the IFAW and those who would support this misrepresentation of

the nature of the sealing industry;

AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the House of Assembly reject

these misrepresentations and ask collectively to dispel the notion that the seal

hunt is a cruel and unnecessary part of the rural economy;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the provincial and federal

governments act together in a joint effort to repudiate these misrepresentations

of the seal industry by developing a promotional campaign directed toward the

general public that explains the true nature of the provinces sealing industry.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Answers to Questions

For which Notice has been Given

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on Friday the Member for Baie

Verte asked me a question which your Honour ruled I was too long in answering

and I agree, I had to be, but I promised to provide the hon. gentleman with a

two page

summary today.

He wanted to know, Mr. Speaker, just exactly what it is that

the Department of Development and Rural Renewal has been up to and I did give

him some misinformation on Friday because I told him that fourteen of the twenty

Regional Economic Development Boards has now submitted their strategic economic

plans. In actual fact, it is sixteen -

AN HON. MEMBER: Apologize.

MR. TULK: Well, I should apologize to him, yes, for being

too good.

Mr. Speaker, there is also some information here, I say to

the hon. gentleman, which will show him that under the Transitional Job Fund

Program, we helped, along with the federal government to create some 2000 new

jobs.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Yes, I can.

Mr. Speaker, under the Strategic Enterprise Development Fund,

there has been expenditure of some $18.7 million, 205 business projects for

1,496 more jobs.

Mr. Speaker, under the Comprehensive Labrador Agreement there

has been twenty-nine economic initiatives and this year, for the first time, we

opened up the forest resources in Labrador to the sawmilling industry through

the use of a federal program. Mr. Speaker, it goes on to talk about ninety-nine

craft producers that we have helped. It talks about the Newfoundland and

Labrador Film Development Corporation -

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Are you listening?

MR. SHELLEY: No, I am not because (inaudible).

MR. TULK: No, I didn't think you were. It also said, Mr.

Speaker, that we have put together the Collective Enterprise Development Program

and we have established the Newfoundland and Labrador organization for women

entrepreneurs. We have a great program here, which I am sure you will want to

read about, that we have visited through a program called Getting the Message

Out; some 200 presentations to 5,500 high school students. I could even give

them letters, Mr. Speaker, back from school principals saying how wonderful that

job is. We have done a trade initiative with St. Pirre et Micquelon, I say to

the hon. gentleman, which he should learn about. That is a good thing. We have

just recently signed an agreement with the federal government called the Canada

Newfoundland Comprehensive Economic Development Program which will bring another

$50.14 million into the Province.

The Department of Human Resources and Employment and my own

department under the former minister, who is now the Minister of ITT, has

negotiated a new Federal-Provincial Labour Market Development Agreement bringing

in some $386 million into the Province.

MR. SHELLEY: What's this the good news review from VOCM?

MR. TULK: Well you asked me what we were doing and, Mr.

Speaker, those are only some of the things. If the hon. gentleman wants a more

detailed list, I will say to him that we will take about forty or fifty pages to

- so he should not ask it in Oral Questions at all. He should come over and sit

down and I will have my officials give him two or three hours of briefing.

Mr. Speaker, I will table the answer for the hon. gentleman

so he can have a good nights reading.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: Yes, I am not sure of the exact date, Mr.

Speaker, but a couple of weeks ago the hon. Member for Waterford Valley -

Kenmount asked me a number of questions relating to the sale of Elizabeth

Towers. I wish to table the answers to those questions today and let the Clerk

know that the hon. member across the way has it so you don't have to come

looking to me for it and asking for it. I will give it all to him.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have another petition on housing, Mr. Speaker. A petition

to be presented to the hon. House of Assembly by the Voices for Justice and

Housing. The prayer of the petition reads; we the residents of Newfoundland and

Labrador wish to petition the House of Assembly regarding the rate increase at

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation on a sliding scale from 25 per

cent to 30 per cent. We are opposed to this increase because of the hardships

that may be endured by tenants and we therefore ask that this decision be

reconsidered.

Mr. Speaker, I am hoping and many of the tenants of housing

as well, are hoping that the review that the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs promised a couple of weeks ago will soon be done. I know that

there are a lot of people, tenants of housing, who are very anxious and waiting

for the reply of that review. We can only hope, on this side of the House, that

the minister's review will be fair to those tenants of Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing considered to be the working poor. Mr. Speaker, as I have said on many

occasions, a number of these tenants are probably going to be better off on

social services if their rent is actually increased from 25 per cent to 30 per

cent. There is no doubt about it, this decision has to be reviewed. Mr. Speaker,

I anticipate that the review being conducted by the minister will prove healthy

for the tenants of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to support the petition put forward by my colleague

from St. John's South. I would like to say to the minister that these petitions

that we present here are continuing to arrive at our offices. There seems to be

some concern on behalf of the tenants that this review might not fulfil the

wishes of the tenants but also that the commitments made by the minister here,

that he will review all the incomes and all of the, I guess, income sources that

people have, to make sure that there is justice.

These people here are talking about making sure that when you

move from 25 per cent to 30 per cent, that is a big jump for anybody, regardless

of your income level. It is nice to say they have an income of $30,000 but

$30,000 is not a big income today for seniors to be able to keep things

together. So when we are talking about a big jump like that, people are finding

it difficult. That is why I think the petitions continue to arrive.

I say to the minister that the petitioners reflect the

anxiety they are having, and perhaps the minister might want to be able to speed

up his review, particularly in view of the season we are into now, Christmas,

and with the anxiety that will be caused by not knowing exactly what is going to

happen to their rent in January or February.

We get a fair number of calls from people in the situation

that the minister has addressed on a couple of occasions, which is the prayer of

the petition here. They are asking for some leniency, asking for some

understanding, and asking the minister if he would reflect on what he is doing.

It is December, and you have extra expenses of heat and everything else. Maybe

we should just freeze everything until we can have a thorough review of the

entire situation.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: It gives me a great chance, Mr. Speaker, to

talk about the inequities in our system. Let me just give you another fact. This

is two or three times I have had this opportunity to do it, and I hope the

Opposition keeps doing this because it gives me a chance to compare, Mr.

Speaker, private market housing in this Province - these statistics were

provided to us and they are backed up by Statistics Canada. Two senior citizens

in this Province living on the basic Old Age Pension and the Supplement, without

any pension from any individual source, the average income for those two senior

citizens is $15,881. That is the income for two senior citizens.

Mr. Speaker, a mother with one child, or a father with one

child, two people, the average income is $8,692. Now I am going to say it again:

$15,881 for two seniors; a single parent - single mother or single dad - with

one child, the average income in this Province is $8,692.

Mr. Speaker, if there is anything this side of the House

should be doing, it is trying to help those types of people, those single

parents, those poorer parents who I consider to be a lot worse off. In fact, the

senior citizen - and I agree that the senior citizen needs and deserves

appreciation - they have gone through and they have paid their dues, but the

problem that I have with it is that here am I, being asked by the Opposition -

because who they are getting the calls from, and that is who they are getting

the petitions from, from the senior citizens - and they are shaking their heads

over there, I have problems with it and I don't know how to handle it.

AN HON. MEMBER: And the working poor, Minister.

MR. A. REID: The working poor. Well, the working poor are

the people to whom I am referring. A single parent with one child, $8,600 a year

that person has. That is an average, and those are true figures. I can give you

those. Compare the two and see, Mr. Speaker, I have a problem with that. I have

a real dilemma with me, as minister, trying to adjust or readjust social housing

for senior citizens when I know that we have so many people out in our

communities around this Province - especially here in St. John's - who are

making $8,000 and $9,000 a year and, you know what, cannot get into social

housing.

Can you imagine me saying to somebody living in private

housing right now that, `If you came in we would charge you 29 per cent - not 30

per cent - and we would provide you housing. Not only would we charge you 29 per

cent; we would give you $115 on top of that to help pay your heating bill.' How

would they feel? What would their answer be?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: Good question. I have been here since 1989,

and all I have heard from the Opposition is, `What is the Housing Corporation

doing in the business of housing?' That is all I have heard.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: I have been pressured and pressured and

pressured to do that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: What are we doing?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: No, that is not what he said. That is not

social housing down in Pleasantville. Mr. Speaker, that is the dilemma I'm in. I

will say to the hon. gentleman, I said in this House categorically that it would

take me a couple of weeks. I ask the hon. gentleman, with all sincerity, not

being critical and not trying to do anything, I'm having trouble getting my

mind, grasping the fact that people are living in our social housing units

getting as much as $25,000 and $30,000 a year, when I have constituents out

there making $6,000, $7,000 and $8,000 and are living in squalor. I have

problems with that.

Give me the time. I don't know. It may take me another week

to do. I've got some meetings scheduled this week on it. I'm going over it with

the Housing Corporation. I'm not sure what we did was the way we should have

done it. Let me look at every aspect of it. As soon as I possibly can I will

come back with a report to the House.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I call Order No. 21, second

reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act," Bill 42.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The

Registered Nurses Act". (Bill No. 42)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me

great pleasure to speak to the second reading of Bill 42, "An Act To Amend The

Registered Nurses Act" of Newfoundland.

I would first like to say how pleased I am today to see in

our galleries the fourteen nurse practitioner students who are here today. I

would like to identify their name and their home town, even though they will

probably be, some of them, working in other areas of the Province: Cathy Anstey

from Twillingate; Paul Briffett from Mount Moriah; Mona Clarke from Burnt

Islands; Paulette Critchley from Port Saunders; Tracy Ellsworth from Port au

Choix; Patricia Kelsall from Happy Valley-Goose Bay; Beverely McIsaac from Port

aux Basques; Kimberley Pardy from Goose Bay; Donna Parsons from Port aux

Basques; Angela Pelley from Durrell; Carolyn Rideout from Twillingate; Mollie

Spence from Norris Point; Leela Subramaniam from Labrador; and Trena Warren from

Harbour Breton.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: As well, I would like to acknowledge the

other representatives from the nursing community and the medical community who

were able to join us today for this reading.

This bill will provide a framework for the introduction of

nurse practitioners to the health profession sector of Newfoundland and

Labrador. As many of you will remember, back after the Health Forum the whole

issue of nurse practitioner was raised as one way to help address the issues in

health care, particularly in rural Newfoundland, albeit all over the Province.

It was an issue that was raised of great importance, one the public had spoken

to quite favourably and one that was supported by the public. Therefore today,

after that announcement in May, I speak today to the second reading.

This is only one of the many number of responses that were

made to the Health Forum in May. By introducing legislation to amend the

Registered Nurses Act, nurse practitioners will operate as part of a

multi-disciplinary team to health care delivery. This will expand, I believe, to

enhance not only the health services in rural Newfoundland, but all over

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Nurse practitioners originally will work out of three

multi-disciplinary teaching and service units. While these multi-disciplinary

teaching and service units are a pilot project, the nurse practitioner program

is not a pilot project. In fact, it will allow nurse practitioners to work

throughout Newfoundland in the coming months and years ahead.

I would also like to say at the outset that a nurse

practitioner is in no way designed to replace physicians. Nurse practitioners

could never replace physicians and the valuable work physicians do. In fact,

they will work as part of a team to enhance both the lifestyle of physicians and

of course the health services to the people of our Province.

Nurse practitioners will receive special designation on their

annual nursing licence to practice, following completion of a course of study

being offered at the Centre of Nursing Studies in St. John's.

Nurse Practitioners will work within a set of regulations

that are being designed and developed in collaboration with a number of health

professionals including physicians, pharmacists, health care providers and

consumers, as well as other nurses and curriculum experts in the Province. This

set of regulations that is being developed right now, will allow nurses to

practice within that scope of practice to enhance and make the delivery of

services more stable in our Province.

The agreement on internal trade mandates that all

professions, both in the health sector and elsewhere, must move forward towards

a quality of qualifications over the next three to five years in order to live

up to commitments made in the enhancement of the labour mobility among provinces

in Canada and indeed North America. This particular Nurse Practitioner program

as we know it today is a transitional program, is one that will evolve over time

and will again be developed to meet the needs of various communities. The Nurse

Practitioner program that is being taught and offered right now is a primary

health care Nurse Practitioner program, and it will be made available to these

fourteen Nurse Practitioners who will go back to the various boards and work in

those areas.

This particular program is one, I think, that is very

important at this point in time, and as I said, it is a transitional program

which will change over time. It is designed now, based on a curriculum with

courses such as Health Assessment, Advance Clinical decision-making,

Pharmacology and Physical Assessment. What we have done in this particular case,

Mr. Speaker, is that we have taken experienced nurses, people who have worked in

their communities for a number of years, and we are upgrading their knowledge

and skills to be able to work as part of this team. This is the first step in a

long-term process which will, I believe, at the end of the day, create a number

of different programs for Nurse Practitioners to avail of. So this particular

class will graduate in the fall and again, I believe, will serve as a template

for other nurse practitioners to follow, and this legislation will also allow

nurse practitioners from outside the Province to come here and work.

I think, from the names of the home towns that I have

referred to, you can tell that many of these home towns are part of boards that

represent, in some cases, very isolated communities in our Province. Some of

these nurse practitioners will go back to even more remote areas and will work

through part of a multi-disciplinary team. I think, as we move towards the

health delivery services of the future - and I have talked about this most

recently in the rural health forum - that we are going to have to look more and

more on the clustering of health professionals as we try to deliver services. We

understand in our Province that we do have a shortage of physicians and I think

we have to do a lot of things to try to enhance the lifestyle of physicians and

to try to both attract and retain physicians in all parts of our Province.

The Nurse Practitioner program, as I mentioned, is one that

will evolve and, I believe, will form a very vital component to the delivery of

health services in Newfoundland. Many years ago, in the 1970s, a Nurse

Practitioner program was also put in place but, Mr. Speaker, there was never the

legislation put there to allow nurses to practice within their scope of

practice, and this will provide that opportunity for nurses. When I think of the

various communities, for example, that could avail of a nurse practitioner; I

think it is a very important step for all of us.

Hand in hand, with this type of health care deliverer, I

think is something also very important and that is, the whole concept of

tele-medicine and how we have improved over the years on our delivery of health

services through technology. Again, at the rural health forum, an example was

given of an injury that was sustained at the Hibernia platform, whereby one of

the employees had actually injured his hand. The physician who was able to look

at the injury via tele-medicine had actually a better view of the injury than

was able to be provided through the naked eye. So, I think when you look at the

possibility of distance and what we can achieve through technology, it is quite

obvious that this is definitely a step in the right direction.

We are also doing other projects which will enhance this type

of delivery. For example: we are doing tele-diagnosing with respect to

specialists' services particularly in the area of child psychiatry.

I think it is also an excellent opportunity to say that the

Nurse Practitioner program is really not a new concept in this Province, and I

think I would be remiss if I did not recognize and acknowledge the valuable work

that has been done in the northern part of our Province for the last number of

years by the Grenfell Association and, as they were commonly called, the

Grenfell nurses.

I can say, from Flower's Cove all up the Northern Peninsula,

and all up the Coast of Labrador, we have had absolutely excellent health

services provided by nurses who worked really as nurse practitioners for the

most part but are called regional nurses. They worked as part of a team and, in

fact, did have the ability to do functions such as limited prescribing as part

of a team.

I think we should all acknowledge the valuable work by our

nurses and physicians who worked in the northern and more remote parts of our

Province, and acknowledge that work today as we talk about this very important

milestone, as I would say, as we introduce second reading of this amendment to

the nurse practitioner Act.

I would like to go through the various subsections of this

Act to point out what these change will involve as we move through the various

clauses of Bill 42.

Clause 1 would add a definition of `nurse practitioner' to

the Act and would provide clarification of the definition of `minister' under

that Act.

Clause 2 is a consequential amendment to the clarification of

the definition of `minister'.

Clause 3 would permit the issuance of an enhanced annual

licence for the nurse practitioner. This clause expands the existing

section 8

of the Registered Nurses Act which will define the basic qualifications

necessary to attain a nurse practitioner designation, and includes the ability

of that council to issue a licence to a person who has sufficient knowledge and

skills through educational and practical experience to warrant the designation,

although having not taken the nurse practitioners course of study.

I think this particular clause again speaks to the valuable

work done in a number of areas of our Province. I refer particularly to

Grenfell, but there are other areas in our Province - for example, another one

that comes to mind is Change Islands - where we have had the expertise of nurses

practising in collaboration with physicians. This clause would allow the Council

of Registered Nurses to provide an opportunity for these nurses to do a prior

learning assessment and a challenge exam, and all the other necessary

requirements, proving they have both the knowledge and skills to work as a nurse

practitioner. And in many cases, it will be just a continuance of the very

valuable work they are able to do.

This provision will also allow for both the licensure of

nurse practitioners from other jurisdictions as well as for allowing the

possibility of some regional northern nurses achieving the nurse practitioner

designation in recognition of their level of experience and expertise.

Clause 4 would permit the council to approve schools of

nursing if certain requirements are met. As you know, the Council of Registered

Nurses is responsible for the protection of the public, to enhance the safety of

the public as it applies to the practices of nurses and, in this particular

case, nurse practitioners.

This clause is an enhancement of the existing

section 9 and

will allow the council to approve schools of nursing which offer the expanded

programs for nurse practitioner designation as well as offering courses in the

basic educational nursing programs.

Clause 5 would describe the powers of a nurse practitioner

under this Act, and by an inclusion of a new subsection 11.1, the basic powers

and responsibilities of a nurse practitioner are outlined. They include:

"(

a) communicating to a patient or that person's substitute

decision-maker a diagnosis made by that nurse practitioner identifying a disease

or disorder which may be identified from

(

i) the patient's health history,

(ii) the findings of a health examination performed by the

nurse practitioner; and

(iii) the results of any laboratory or other tests the nurse

practitioner is authorized to perform;

(

b) order the application of a form of energy prescribed by

the regulations;" A form of energy refers to tests such as x-ray, for example.

"(

c) order laboratory or other tests prescribed by the

regulations; and

(

d) prescribe a drug designated in the regulations."

Clauses 6 to 11 are amendments related to the licensure of

nurse practitioners under the Act. These amendments are either minor word

additions or changes in sections that are referenced and necessitated by the

inclusion of nurse practitioners under the Registered Nurses' Act.

Clause 12, Mr. Speaker, would provide for regulations which

may be made by the council if approved by the minister. By the addition of

subsection 22.1, the specific regulations needed to provide the substantive

framework for the scope of practice for nurse practitioners is provided for. The

regulations will define the prescribing powers of nurse practitioners for

prescribing different forms of energy. As I previously said, this would include,

for example, x-rays that the nurse practitioner may order, as well as for

purposes in the form of energy which may be applied. As well, the regulations

will prescribe the laboratory tests and all the others as I have previously

indicated.

In addition, the regulations, as I have identified, will

generally describe both the standards and the scope of practice for nurse

practitioners, in recognition of the importance of the input of certain

stakeholders. This is certainly a new amendment that was made after consultation

with a number of the various groups involved in the health care field. The

Council of the Association of Registered Nurses of Newfoundland, in developing

regulations for nurse practitioners, will consult with a committee of health

professionals including physicians, pharmacists and others as appointed by the

minister. When the council has formulated its regulations, following

consultation with that committee, the regulations will be presented for the

approval of the minister.

Clauses 13 to 18 are consequential amendments, Mr. Speaker,

to other provincial statutes. They include; the Emergency - Medical Aid Act, the

Fatalities Investigation Act, the Nursing Assistants Act, the Optometry Act and

the Pharmaceutical Association Act. The consequential amendments are necessary

to include the words, `nurse practitioner' in the above-noted statutes where

previously only the word, `nurse' appeared. In the case of the Pharmaceutical

Association Act, 1994, it is necessary to include a specific reference to nurse

practitioners to allow pharmacists to accept prescriptions written by a duly

licensed and qualified nurse practitioner.

Clause 19, Mr. Speaker, provides for proclamation date to be

fixed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.

Mr. Speaker, I conclude my remarks today on the second

reading by saying that, first of all, I believe that the multi-disciplinary

teaching and service units will provide an excellent environment for nurse

practitioners to begin their work and to have the provided support that they

will need in carrying out the very valuable work that is necessary to stabilize

health services in our Province. I also think it is important to restate that

this is a transitional program. The nurse practitioner program is not designed

in any way to replace the valuable work of physicians and, in fact, is designed

to assist positions in improving the overall delivery of health services to the

people of our Province.

I would conclude by thanking the centre for nursing studies,

all the various associations involved and the students who have taken on the

challenge, the first students of the nurse practitioner program. I welcome your

courage in taking this program and going back to the various communities, to

which you have served already in many cases as practising nurses for a number of

years, to continue your valuable work in an expanded role in collaboration with

physicians and other health care providers. I thank you for that and I would

invite my other colleagues to speak on this very important matter today.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to take a few minutes today to talk about Bill

42. First of all, before I do that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome the

people who have committed themselves to do this particular course in

Newfoundland and Labrador. Unfortunately, we did not find out that this

particular bill was going to be called until about 12:00 or 12:30 today but I

would certainly like to welcome them to our galleries and to thank them for

certainly taking up the challenge of these duties as it relates to,

particularly, I guess, rural Newfoundland and parts of Labrador for which we

seem to have some difficulties from time to time getting medical doctors. So

this, for these particular areas, I am sure will be welcome.

I have read through the Act and I will say to the minister

that we, on this side of the House, have no problem whatsoever with this

particular piece of legislation. We welcome this legislation, Minister, to

create nurse practitioners in Newfoundland and Labrador. We welcome it. Having

gone through it I find that where we are changing most of the subsections, what

we are putting in is probably more house-keeping to create nurse practitioners.

In actual fact, I really did not find anywhere where we were actually making any

major change to the Act that was already there. I think most of what is here is

actually to add to and not take away from.

Again, I do not really have any problem with that in most of

the sections. These people will, of course - I am assuming, if the minister

would permit a question, that these people will have to go through, in this

case, the council, which the council being referred to, I am assuming, is the

Nurses' Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. They will have to write exams

and, of course, will have to get their designations from this particular

council. Am I right, Minister, in assuming that?

MS J. M. AYLWARD: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Pardon? I cannot hear you, I am sorry.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Yes, if you could answer that for me now,

please, if I might, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is a designated course of study and skills which would

have to be completed, and in order for a nurse practitioner to get her or his

licence to practice and deliver safe practice to the public she or he would have

to meet the set out regulations and guidelines that are in place. Those

regulations are yet to be formulated, as you know.

This particular legislation provides the framework for the

development of the regulations which will govern the practice and identify the

scope of practice of a nurse practitioner. Once a nurse practitioner graduates,

she or he has to practice within that scope of practice. If she or he goes

outside that scope of practice, then they will be liable and they will be

treated by the courts in a way that any reasonably prudent nurse practitioner

would have acted under those particular circumstances. That is how it is judged

and regulated.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Madam Minister.

Again by leave, if I might. Minister, I have also noticed

there the

section that deals with

interpretation forbidding or allowing a nurse

practitioner from another province to come into Newfoundland and Labrador. Am I

assuming by this particular

section that they will only be able to come in here,

care for the patient they are here with, and that they will not be allowed to

practice in the Province? Am I clear on that in this legislation?

MR. HARRIS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: That, too?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, if -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FRENCH: By leave if you would, please.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, on a point

of order.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, this is second reading debate

here. It is not Committee where you can have a question and answer period. We

are just talking about the broad general principles of the bill. I know people

are anxious to speak on the general principles, and this can be done better in

Committee, I think.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader, on the point of order.

MR. TULK: Of course, if we wish we can have questions by

leave, but the hon. gentleman is essentially right, that those types of

questions should be put during Committee stage of the bill. But if, indeed,

there is leave to get this done and get it out of the way, then - I mean, the

object of the thing is to get the bill passed so that the nurse practitioners of

this Province, I understand, can call themselves by what they are. If that can

be expedited, then they have leave on this side, Sir.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader, speaking on the point

of order.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, on this side, encourage the kind of exchange that is

going on right now whereby there are questions being asked by the critic for

health, and there are people in the gallery who probably would like to listen to

this exchange back and forth. It is helpful to all hon. members, and we, on this

side, encourage that at second reading. We can have further questions at

Committee. Right now, we think it is helpful to continue the process that is

going on.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order, we are at second reading and the

broader principles of the bill should be debated at this stage, but the hon. the

minister, I believe, in introducing the bill, made reference to a number of

clauses in the bill. The hon. the Opposition critic has asked some questions and

the minister has asked leave and the House has given leave. If the House wishes

to continue in that vein, by leave, then the hon. the minister can answer

questions.

Order, please!

MR. TULK: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is -

MR. TULK: Oh you are not finished, I am sorry.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the minister does not have to answer the questions

at this point in time, but if she so desires and the House gives her leave,

well, then, the Chair, of course, has to go along with the consensus of the

House.

The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: I have this question for the minister. I can

ask it now or I can save it for Committee - it really makes no difference. But I

thought, to expedite this bill, if I could ask the questions now and the

minister could answer me, it would not necessitate my asking it again. That was

the last question, the one I just asked the minister. I think the minister wants

to answer that question for me, if she would.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: With respect to your question, this Act

would not limit only nurse practitioners graduating from this program. This

would allow nurse practitioners from outside the Province to come in here to

practice, but they would have to practice within the scope identified within the

regulations. They could not practice within the scope of practice from Ontario.

They have to practice within the scope of practice that we have from within our

Province here and those regulations are being developed by a group of

physicians, nurses, nurse practitioners and various other participants in that

committee to develop the regulations and each regulation will be specific to

govern the scope of practice.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, want to make a few comments. I will keep them fairly

brief.

I know we were not certainly aware until just after lunch

being called today, we had an opportunity, of course, to go through that rather

quickly. I am sure, in Committee, also in defence of my colleagues, certainly in

Committee we will have an opportunity to ask questions further.

Overall, I certainly agree with this bill. I think it is

important that we move forward. I think it is a progressive piece of legislation

where nursing practitioners are able to take on responsibilities over and above

those that they would be performing as an RN or with a bachelor of nursing. I

have always been a strong believer that, what someone is required to perform and

the certain skills should be in line with the training they receive, not

necessarily what letters or what structures are put behind their name that

really represent, I guess, their training level, but it is important that nurses

take on added responsibility and the training is appropriate to deal with those

new skills. I am all for that, whether it be nursing assistants taking on

responsibility for which they have this training and they have the ability to

perform. I am a strong believer in it.

I feel the purpose of all of this is that we can provide an

important service out there to the public. We are short by around eighty doctors

out in rural Newfoundland today, unfilled positions, some unfilled so long they

are not even considered vacant, I might add, and with the ever-increasing role

for nurses today, I think it is very important.

I certainly applaud the initiatives of those people who have

sought to pursue the training as nursing practitioners. I think it is very, very

important that we have people out there with that initiative to take on added

responsibilities and to be able to provide a service to the public in areas

where it is very, very difficult to find medical doctors to perform it. If our

legislation - and certainly, the legislation here is entitling us to go a step

beyond that, and we always have to look, not just rest where we are today, but

always look for new avenues and new opportunities where people with the skills

can broaden their scope of responsibilities that we provide to the people.

We have a shifting of demographics in this Province today,

which is making it very, very difficult to be able to provide a service to rural

Newfoundland. Some of the names that the minister referred to, I have noticed in

the communities, they are scattered all over this Province. I think it is very

important that we look at developing those skills to be able to care for people

where it is not always practical. There are communities where the numbers have

declined so significantly today that you cannot get doctors to go there on a fee

for service; you have a job getting doctors for these communities to even go out

on a salary basis.

It is important that we have added this, and I am delighted

that it has moved forward. It is a progressive piece of legislation and it is

important, too, in the controls and regulations of what the specific

responsibilities are -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Whatever the minister is saying - I am not

sure what he is saying. I say to the minister, it is an important, it is a very

responsive piece of legislation, more responsive then some I have seen come from

that minister, I might add, so I would compliment the minister for moving on

this. I think it is important, as I was saying before I was interrupted, that we

have controls, too, and we have approvals - and I know it is subject to the

minister - approvals that will be in line with the responsibilities they carry

out.

We have to ensure the goal of this is for public protection

and public service, and ensure that the steps taken to ensure that people are

certified to perform, have gone through, and the minister is satisfied that it

meets those particular standards. I am sure the curriculum in what is being

offered here is certainly in line with the responsibilities they are being asked

to perform that are clearly articulated.

Certainly, on behalf of this side, I will not delay any

further. We will have a chance in clause-by-clause, as we get to Committee, to

look at each particular clause in case we have any further questions, but

overall, it is a good piece of legislation and I support it, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, today, I stand in support of Bill

42, "An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act" at this second reading.

Many people in the House may not know that I am a nurse by

profession and, of course, my background is in community health nursing. I

remember, back in the early 1970s, when I had to leave this Province to go to

Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia in order to receive the necessary training.

So I am really pleased to be able to stand here today to support this bill,

because now, this training will be available in this Province. It has been for

public health nurses and community health nurses for many years now, but I am

particularly pleased that again, we are training nurse practitioners in this

Province. This is a big step forward for the nursing profession and a big step

forward for rural health care.

In this Province, we have a proud history of nurses

pioneering health care changes, and as we move towards a new enhanced team

approach to health care, in particular for our rural areas, I feel that the

nurse practitioner will be a really important part of the team.

Newfoundland and Labrador has long provided the example for

others to follow in designing health care programs for rural populations, and I

think many of us who have studied health care history in the past - I know as a

student, I was very surprised when I did this course of study in years gone by,

to realize that our cottage hospital system was one of the best health care

models in the world and was copied in particular by many of the Scandinavian

countries, and I now feel that this is also a program, this team approach and

this new Nurse Practitioner program, that will be copied by others.

As I listened to the Minster of Health outline where the

students who were with us today in the gallery come from, I know that from all

over the Province and in particular areas like Port Saunders and Port au Choix,

but in particular in areas like Twillingate, Durrell, which is in the same area,

and Port aux Basques, these are the areas where we want to do the first pilot

projects and to implement this first program.

As the Minister of Health stated, this is not a new concept.

In 1969, when I was a second-year nursing student, I worked an internship period

in Musgrave Harbour with the most famous and highly regarded nurse on The Strait

Shore I should say, Nurse Cuff. This person worked as a regional nurse in

Bonavista North for many, many years and inspired many of today's nurses who are

presently working in our public health system and our regional nurses and our

community health nurses. Today, the nurses in our gallery who are here to hear

the debate on this bill will have better tools and better back-up systems to

assist them in their day-to-day work.

They will have doctors -

MR. TULK: `Sandra', her name is Norma Cuff.

MS KELLY: Norma Cuff, right. We always only knew her as

Nurse Cuff and we were all trying to remember her first name, and it was Norma

Cuff, a legendary nurse. But as I was saying, the nurses who are in today's

Nurse Practitioner programs will have better tools and better back-up systems to

assist them, whether it be technology or the other members of their health care

team. They will be a part of a team that includes other nurses, doctors, social

workers and other professionals in our health care system.

I look forward to the passage of this bill, Mr. Speaker, and

to the graduation of this class in the upcoming year. We are blazing new trails

in this Province, and this group of nurses in particular is blazing new trails.

I fully endorse this new process, and I know that it will be good for health

care for all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, but in particular rural

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not going to take a lot of time today to speak on this

bill. I will compliment the minister on bringing forth this bill to introduce

nurse practitioners to the Province.

It is not really a new concept. The nurse practitioners

worked in northern Newfoundland for many years and, of course, we know they were

very beneficial to the people at that time. To me, personally, I have been, over

the past number of years, been treated by nurses in the Health Sciences Centre

on many occasions and have had discussions with many nurses on this topic. I

think, in the long haul, this is going to be a good move for the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, in particular rural Newfoundland.

Presently, nurse practitioners are recognized in other parts

of Canada, in the U.S., and all over the world, so basically, we are just

catching up with the times.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why are we so slow?

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not know why we are so slow. I am not

in government, I cannot answer that.

Mr. Speaker, I believe the nurse practitioners will provide

cost-effective quality health care in rural Newfoundland. The role of the nurse

practitioner is endorsed by the Canadian Nurses' Association. We know that in

rural Newfoundland today there is an acute shortage of general practitioners. We

know that government is having a lot of problems trying to get doctors to come

to rural Newfoundland, and I think the nurse practitioner will go a long way

with respect to resolving that problem.

I have just a couple of little things here I would like to

read into the record with respect to nurse practitioners and what they will mean

to different individuals within the Province.

Nurse practitioners, to the patients, offer expert quality

health care by experienced nurses who have committed themselves to remaining a

part of the community - a very important concept.

To the physicians, they offer an opportunity for access to a

supportive, knowledgeable colleague with whom to work in a complementary role.

The nurse practitioners are not going to be taking the place of doctors, but

they can certainly alleviate some of the workload and help the people in rural

Newfoundland in particular. Also, to the communities, they offer hope that the

challenge of caring for the sick, the elderly, and all the citizens of the

community can be carried out in a more efficient, comprehensive manner.

As I said earlier, I had some discussions with nurses

recently on this issue. As a matter of fact, I have a niece who is a nurse, who

is doing some courses at University, and just did a paper on nurse practitioners

in the Province. She interviewed me with respect to what I felt were the issues,

and what concerns I had with respect to it. From all I can see, introducing

nurse practitioners to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is a positive

action. I told her so. I read her report afterwards, and it is obvious that the

nurses themselves are pleased that this will take place. We have, I think,

fourteen here in the gallery today who are doing the course and will be out in

the near future, I assume, in different positions or in different areas of the

Province to assist physicians and to do what they have been trained to do with

respect to the course they have taken.

All I want to do is stand today and let people know that I

certainly support the bill in this House today that was introduced by the

Minister of Health. I know the minister has been given a hard time, in recent

times, from members of this House with respect to health care in the Province,

but I think this is a good step that will go a long way in alleviating some of

the concerns and the problems that the people have in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and

Attorney General.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, before `His Worship' Mr. Harris

speaks, I would like to say a few words on this bill.

First, I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister of Health

for having the foresight to bring forward this particular piece of legislation

today. I must confess, when I was Minister of Health we did toy with the idea of

bringing forth such legislation but the torch was passed to the present

minister, who of course, is bringing it forward.

As hon. members know, I grew up in the Grenfell Region. So I

am familiar with the regional nurse, who for all intents and purposes was a

nurse practitioner. So when I look at this legislation and see the definition of

a nurse practitioner - well

Part I is a registered nurse who successfully

completed a course of study but

Part II, a nurse who, in the opinion of the

council, has knowledge and skill sufficient as prescribed by the regulations to

be licensed to practice as a nurse practitioner under this act.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the effect of that is going to be that a

lot of nurses, who have been practising as regional nurses with Grenfell, will

be able to use much of their experience to count towards being certified as a

nurse practitioner. Now it does not mean that they will automatically be

grandfathered or grandmothered in but it does mean that many of the skills that

they have practised, much of the experience that they have will indeed be useful

to them. In some cases they may have to do a little bit of training, in more

cases they indeed might be grandfathered or grandmothered in and I like that

part of the bill.

Mr. Speaker, I want to give a few living examples of how it

feels to grow up in an area where the only health care, which is known to you,

is the health care which is delivered by the local nurse. When I grew up

Roddickton - I was born in 1941, Mr. Speaker, in the hospital in St. Anthony and

they rushed me as fast as they could to Roddickton where the only health

practitioner was a nurse. At that time I believe, Mr. Speaker, we only knew them

by their last names, as the hon. House Leader pointed out, and they were all

British. There was Nurse Slobe, there was Nurse Rhodes and there was Nurse

Catell and the list goes on and on, Mr. Speaker.

I remember the very first time that I was old enough to be

exposed to the health care system. Now I was exposed to it before I could

remember but the first time I can remember, I was about five years old. I was

living in Roddickton and Nurse Catell was giving the whooping cough vaccination.

Now everybody was in danger of being struck down with whooping cough if they did

not have this vaccination. My poor old mother, she was in her heyday then, she

was probably in her thirties. She was a very strong powerful woman. I was not,

by no means, near the size that I am today. So she decided, against my better

judgement, that she was going to take me down and have this vaccination. My two

brothers tried their best to encourage me. One brother said: well you know, it

is an awful big needle. It's about as big as a four inch nail. Well that got me

frightened, Mr. Speaker, and then my other brother said: no, it's as big as a

pick pole. Now I don't know if any of you in the logging industry are familiar

with a pick pole but a pick pole is a pretty big needle to put into a five year

old child.

So anyway I did not want to go and my poor old mother, she

put the headlock on me and she dragged me across the kitchen. The last thing I

can remember grabbing was the leg of the table. So she dragged me and the table

all the way across the kitchen, out through the door and of course the table

brought up in the kitchen door. So my strength was not as much as hers, she

broke me loose and she carried me kicking and screaming down to the nursing

station and I was exposed to the health care system, Mr. Speaker, and got this

needle. It was not quite as big as a four inch nail nor as big as the pick pole

but it was a fairly large needle. Anyway, I have not had the whooping cough so I

assume it must have worked.

The other thing which nurses used to do when I was growing up

was pull teeth. One of the first doctors who came to visit - the Member for Baie

Verte is here - one of the doctors from Baie Verte, who came down from the

mainland who practised in the hospital in Baie Verte, was there about a week

when a local fellow came in to have a tooth pulled. The doctor said: I am sorry,

sir, I can't pull your tooth that is a dentists' job. The old guy looked at him:

you can't pull teeth? No, he said: I can't pull teeth. How did you go to college

or whatever you do?' Well he said seven or eight years. He said: we got nurses

who pull teeth and if you can't pull my teeth I am going to get a nurse to pull

my tooth. And that is quite true. I can tell you people - I was spared that but

my brother was dragged all over the nursing station in Roddickton because he had

a wisdom tooth, which today no dentist would touch. They would take you to a

doctor. They would take you and probably put you under an anaesthetic to have

your tooth removed. Nurses used to do that in Roddickton when I grew up, Mr.

Speaker.

Suturing; I got the surprise of my life when I learned that

it was doctors who were supposed to suture. How many stitches in the name of God

did Nurse Rhodes and Nurse Catell put in people. She sewed up dozens of people,

Mr. Speaker.

Delivering babies, they call it midwifery now. One woman in

Roddickton had twenty-two children. Nurse Rhodes and Nurse Catell and Nurse

Slobe I believe it was; she went through three nurses and they had twenty-two

children. All of them lived. They could prescribe anything under the sun, a

broken arm, a broken leg. They could put on a cast. Now it is no good to go to a

GP. You have to go to - what is the guy called who puts on the cast? An ortho-

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: An ortho -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: It is a fancy name, isn't it?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DECKER: Nurses in Roddickton could put on casts,

nothing to it.

I remember poor old Simon Castle. Simon Castle died just last

year at the age of seventy-five years. Simon Castle had one leg. You would see

poor old Sim walking up the road. He had his leg torn off in a sawmill in

Roddickton when he was eighteen years old. There was no doctor - a nurse. They

got him to the nurse with his leg torn off, the blood going everywhere. The

arteries were all torn away. You know, the fastest way to get him to St. Anthony

where there was a doctor, where there were operating rooms, was by the old tub,

the Glennifer . The nurse took him, wrapped him up, and managed to put the

pressure on there to stop the blood. They rushed him to St. Anthony Hospital on

board the Glennifer , six miles and hour, sixty miles away, ten hours.

They saved him. He lived until he was seventy-five years old, and died a natural

death.

The nurses also trained doctors. Now, this is one of the

parts in which I believe they play a very important role in Grenfell. Up north,

many of the doctors who come to practice -

MR. TULK: Chris, you're married to a nurse, aren't you?

MR. DECKER: I have been sleeping with a nurse for thirty

years, Sir.

The doctors who come to the north quite often are not from

Newfoundland. Many of them are mainland doctors, some of them are British

doctors, and some of them are from other parts of the world. One of the things

which the nurses have to teach doctors is how to understand the language, how to

understand what the patients are talking about.

Can you imagine a doctor just newly arrived from South

Africa, and he is having his first clinic, and in comes a local patient to see

the doctor, and he says, `Doctor, I can't glutch.' Now the doctor looks at his

face and says, `I beg your pardon, Sir?' `Doctor, I can't glutch.' He looks at

the nurse, and the nurse says, `Doctor, the gentleman has a problem with his

throat; he cannot seem to swallow'. `Oh, of course.'

Then the one who comes in with a k'itch in his side, and the

one with the pain in the kinkhorn, and the husband who comes in looking for a

prescription for his wife and says, `Doctor, my wife is a bit mopish today. I

wonder, can you give me something for her?'

This is all foreign language to those South African and

British and Canadian and American doctors who come in.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: A kinkhorn, that thing there. I don't know.

There might be a fancy name on it, but it is a kinkhorn.

I want to say to this hon. House that I congratulate the

minister for bringing forth legislation which will finally catch up with what

the regional nurses in Grenfell have been doing since 1892. I support this

legislation strongly, and I say to the hon. minister, my colleague, when I take

my heart attack - and I hope to God I don't take one, but if I don't change my

lifestyle and if I don't stop buying bigger clothes instead of losing weight,

some day I am going to take a heart attack.

MR. EFFORD: You had better take a seal oil tablet.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, if and when - if I ever take a

heart attack, do you know where I hope I am? I hope I am in Roddickton so that I

can be rushed to the local nursing station there and the nurses can stabilize

me. If they can't stabilize me, I probably would end up being paralysed anyway,

so I would much rather go on and meet my reward in some further life. I would

rather be where those nurse practitioners are to stabilize me, and if anything

can further be done, rush me off to somewhere where they have the various

facilities. I support this legislation 100 per cent.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the nurses have to

stabilize that member, they must have their hands to be sure, whether he had a

heart attack or not. Whether he had a heart attack or not, stabilizing the

minister might be a difficult task.

I'm pleased to be able to speak on this bill today because it

is something that concerns me quite a bit. I'm glad that the previous speaker

mentioned that this is not a new issue to the Ministry of Health. He as Minister

of Health would know, and some of the other ministers who have been here since

I've been here, will know that I have been in Estimate Committees pushing the

ministry on the issue of nurse practitioners.

It is kind of interesting to hear the debate today when the

speakers are praising the work of nurses in rural Newfoundland, and no one has

really asked or tried to answer the question: Why are we, in 1997, introducing a

bill to allow something that has been going on since 1892? What has been going

on for the last 100 years? Have we been afraid to put into writing what nurses

have been able to do and contribute to the medical profession and to the care of

people for the last 100 years? Have we been afraid to do that? Or has there been

some other reason?

I suspect there has been some other reason. We have had, we

know, in Labrador, and in the Grenfell region, shall we say, nurses carrying out

the duties of nurse midwives, of nurse practitioners, primary health care

givers, and doing a terrific job. It was interesting to hear the minister say,

or the previous speaker say, that they were British, that they were from

somewhere else. Newfoundland-trained nurses couldn't get jobs in Grenfell

because they didn't have the kind of training in midwifery and other things that

were done in Labrador (inaudible) matter of course.

I think that this bill that is being presented - now, I have

no problem with it. It should have been passed many years ago. The nurses should

have been engaged in, on an ongoing basis, throughout this Province, allowed and

permitted to