Manitoba Hansard — 26 April 2004 (Sitting 27, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 27 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, April 26, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1145 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 26, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans expect their Government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability.

Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the Government accountable. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the Government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limit- ing the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by Armin Juergens, Aime Chartrand and Mario Ferrer. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized.

The Manitoba Heavy Construction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construction Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.

Manitobans deserve an open and fair competition that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice.

1146 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions w ith business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afford- ed the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed by Elsie Janzen, Kim Friesen, Vern Neufeld and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Highway 227 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition. * (13:35) It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of Highway 227 in the constituencies of Lakeside and Portage la Prairie. Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers. Allowing better access to Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada Highway. Residences along Highway 227 are not as acces- sible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unaccept- able.

Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having Highway 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellowhead route. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure for the safety of all Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Signed by Bev MacMillan, Don MacMillan, Bruce MacMillan and others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): I am pleased to table the following reports: the 2003 Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board, the 2004-2008 Five-year Plan of the Workers Compensation Board and the 2003 Report of the Appeal Commission and the Medical Review Panel. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Red River College Language Training Centre 18 students under the direction of Miss Paige Glen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Sale). Also in the public gallery we have from Machray School 22 Grade 4 students under the direction of Ms. Jane Walters. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes).

Also I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, who is the

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1147 former Member for St. Norbert, and I would just like to remind him that there are to be no points of order raised from the loge today. ORAL QUESTIONS Health Department Budget Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this Premier said that he was not elected to raise taxe s. He said in his last Throne Speech he would respect the views of the citizens and he would not close health facilities. Something was clearly lost in translation because this Premier's 2004 Budget is raising taxes.

It is forcing unionization on Manitobans that are clearly opposed to it. He is closing the Victoria General's maternity ward and rural health care facilities. A closer look at this Premier's Budget shows that he is also cutting funding to Emergency Health and Ambulance Services, Mr. Speaker. It says right here in his own Budget. I wonder if the Premier can explain why he has increased support services for emergency services and health ambulance services prior to the last election and in this Budget why is he cutting them, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, if the member opposite will look at the line dealing with the City of Winnipeg, I believe there is close to a $2- million increase in ambulance services. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the question is speci- fically about why he cut Emergency Health and Ambulance Services. That was the specific question. We know that this Premier is closing health care facilities. He is cutting Pharmacare. He is reducing rural health services and funding for the Addictions Foundation.

He is cutting funding to Emergency Health and Ambulance Services and he is also cutting funding, we find in his own Budget, to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre and for Aboriginal Health. That is in his own Budget. * (13:40) Something must have been lost in translation, Mr. Speaker, because the Premier said that he would improve mental health services. His Throne Speech said the services for Aboriginal peoples would improve with the creation of an Aboriginal Issues Committee of Cabinet.

Instead, the 2004 Budget this Premier has brought in is cutting funding for Aboriginal Health and for the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Why are taxpayers' dollars being wasted on a Laundromat facility and a sandwich factory while important services for Manitobans such as Emer- gency Health and Ambulan ce Services, Aboriginal Health and the Selkirk Mental Health Centre are being cut? Why is he doing that? Mr. Doer: Again, we have a deficit of research capacity if not knowledge across the way. The emer- gency expenditure '03-04 for Emergency Response and Transportation Systems was $24 million.

In this year's Budget it is $28 million. That looks like an increase of close to $4 million when you add the money in support of the Winnipeg Ambulance Serv- ices. The member is wrong, wrong, wrong again, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, again only that side of the House, when they disagree with the numbers in their own Budget, would applaud. They either do not understand it or there is a problem. Clearly what we see in this Budget, in their document, is that they are cutting those services.

Improving health care services in Manitoba is the No. 1 priority for all Manitobans, but something must have been lost in translation because his Budget, rather than making it a priority, they are cutting. Interestingly enough, and again in his own Budget, and I would hope his Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) would help him through this process, but in their own Budget we also see they are cutting funding to Health Accountability, Policy and Plan- ning by $1.5 million. Mr. Speaker, we understand this Premier is not going to be accountable to Manitobans.

We under- stand that, and he does not have the ability to follow the bold policies that have been introduced into health care such as Roy Romanow. He is calling for cuts to the Health Accountability, Policy and Plan- ning department, and that should not surprise any- body.

1148 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 Can the Premier explain why he talks about all this increase in health when in fact he is cutting, cutting and cutting priority programs? Why is he doing that? Mr. Doer: I would point out that the budget for ambulance services goes up–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite should go home tonight and read the Estimates book, but he has to read more than just one page, and he has to read more than what his research staff, his staff– rather take back the first term–gives him. The emergency services go up $4 million.

He will find another line in the City of Winnipeg budget where it goes up close to $2 million, from $138 million to $140 million. Those are two additional increases. Maybe the member should spend his time apolo- gizing for his mistakes. Pharmacare Deductible Increase Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Health has spent the last four years cranking up his spending in health care by a billion dollars without a plan and without a grand scheme. Without a plan he could not prioritize his spending.

Now we are seeing this Minister of Health scramble to try to find money by increasing Pharma- care deductibles, a backdoor tax. Mr. Speaker, why should our Pharmacare pro- gram come under attack by this Government just because this Minister of Health cannot prioritize his spending? * (13:45) Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, in a series of errors made by the so-called research staff of the member opposite, let me correct them. First off, emergency services is getting $4 mil- lion. An Honourable Member: More. Mr. Chomiak: More. Second off, Pharmacare is getting over $5 million more, Mr. Speaker.

Since we came to office, Pharmacare has almost triple the budget. We have been on for a long time and we want to preserve the program. We looked at all of the options available to us. This will still preserve the program into the future, provide 100% coverage to Manitobans and will provide a coverage that is still the best in the country. Three examples that the members opposite can- not even get the Estimates book right, Mr. Speaker. They cannot even get the numbers right. How would Manitobans believe the rhetoric that we hear day after day in this Chamber? Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, this Government has increased deductibles by 15 percent over the past three years. Their pharmacy cuts are hurting the most vulnerable in the system, not people that can afford it, but those who cannot. Amy Fleming is a stay-at-home mom. Their family Pharmacare deductible was $1,300 prior to the Pharmacare cuts of this Budget. Even then, she and her two children were rece ntly off their medication for almost a month because they could not afford to pay for their medication. Why should mothers like Amy be forced to choose between milk or medicine for her children?

Why is he doing this to such vulnerable people? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, not only are we putting additional funding into Pharmacare but we have expanded the range of Pharmacare. For example, we now offer free drugs, Pharmacare coverage for people who are in palliative care. They used to have to go into hospital and stay in the hospital to get the drugs. Now they are at home. They get the drugs. We have expanded that program. Mr.

Speaker, 85 percent of Manitobans who are on the income-based Pharmacare program and who get 100% coverage when they reach their deductible will pay a maximum of $1 to $9 per month, in addition, for a program that pays almost three times the benefits that it did several years ago. Mrs. Driedger: I am really quite dismayed at this minister's cold and indifferent attitude toward the most vulnerable that he is attacking with his Pharma- care cuts. Amy's son, Matthew, has ADD and is on Ritalin. Amy's daughter, Amanda, is asthmatic and is on two different puffers daily because only one of her lungs works properly.

For these children, being without their medication for a whole month is a very serious matter.

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1149 Why will these children now have to suffer more because this Minister of Health cannot prioritize his spending? Why cut Pharmacare and instead build Laundromats and sandwich factories? Why cut Pharmacare and hurt poor ch ildren like Matthew and Amanda? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the benefits to Pharma- care are going up. Some deductibles are rising. If Pharmacare spending increases at the level of 15 percent and 20 percent per year, it is the largest- growing area of our Budget. Members opposite said prioritize. What we said is we want to have a program.

We want to continue a universal Pharmacare program. We looked at Alberta where they have minimum coverage. We looked at B.C. where they have minimum coverage. We looked at Ontario where they only cover seniors and some chronic disease groups. We said that we are not going to do that. We looked at the Maritimes where they only cover disease groups. We said that we want a universal program that covers all Manitobans and is there for the future. * (13:50) Not only are we expanding, but we have added in the last few years a thousand new drugs to the program and better coverage and wider coverage.

But yes, we have to deal with the supply side and we have to do the payment side. We want to maintain a universal program. Education Department Administrative Costs Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, last week the Premier (Mr. Doer) said, and I quote, "In terms of the financial administration services in government, there is actually a reduction in spending in the Department of Education." I refer the Premier specifi cally to page 58, line 1 of Estimates of Expenditure where it states very clearly that there has been a 9.9% increase in administration costs in the Department of Education.

Is the Premier saying that these numbers that are printed in his own financial statements are incorrect? Hon. Peter Bjornson (Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr. Speaker, as budgets reflect the priorities of gove rnment, our priority is in the Aboriginal Education Directorate where the bulk of the increase of this partic ular budget may lie. It is a very important priority for this Government, and we are proud to stand on this side of the House and say that it is a priority for this Government in terms of our objectives for Aboriginal students in Manitoba schools. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad to see that the Minister of Education is finally getting up and answering questions on behalf of the Department of Education. The Premier obviously is unable to read his own financial statements. Administration costs in the Department of Education are up 9.9 percent. Perhaps when the Premier was referring to cuts in education, he was referring to line 2, School Programs. Is it the policy, Mr. Speaker, of this NDP government to cut School Programs in favour of putting more money into administrative costs? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, educa tion is a priority for this Government.

We have shown that time and time again with our increased funding to education. We continue to fund it at affordable, sustainable and predictable rates, $105 million compared to $15.2 million over the same five-year time frame. It is very simple math. This is a government that stands up for public education. Mrs. Stefanson: Clearly the only priority for this Government is beefing up administration costs. It is absolutely astonishing, Mr. Speaker, that neither the Premier nor the Minister of Education, nor the Mini- ster of Finance (Mr. Selinger) can answer questions on the Estimates

section in the Budget. Is there anyone on the gov erning side of this House who can explain why it is the priority of this Government to take money from front-line education in favour of beefing up administrative costs? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, the Aboriginal Educa- tion Directorate is a very important component of that front-line education and the ability for us to deliver the services that are important for Mani- tobans, especially given our priority with Aboriginal academic achievement and our Aboriginal Action Plan, something that we are very committed to, something that is reflected in our Budget as a priority.

1150 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 Agriculture and Food Department Layoffs Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): The staff members of the Department of Agriculture have been summoned to a meeting in Brandon on the 30th of April. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us how many staff positions will be affected by this change that the Government is intending to make in her department? Hon.

Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): The Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives is a very important division for the people of rural Manitoba, but every so often it is time to review services and look at how we can improve them. We have a process in place where we are having discussions with all staff, unlike the other side of the House when they were in government. They would be cutting jobs. Our goal is to consult with people and look at how we can improve those jobs.

The discussion on Friday is an inclusive discussion with all people in the department to look at how we can improve services for people in rural Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Penner: Numerous staff members that have been with the Department of Agriculture for many years are wondering whether the 400 staff reductions mentioned in the Budget are applicable to them. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us today how many staff she intends to lay off? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite may not appreciate staff in a department the way I do.

They are the front-lin e workers who work with the people in the rural communities. From time to time, you have to look at the services that you deliver and look at how you can improve them. I can tell the member opposite that the staff in the department have been very appreciative of the process that we have put in place where they can have input into the kinds of services they believe should be delivered to the people of rural Manitoba. We will continue to be inclusive, Mr. Speaker. * (13:55) Mr.

Penner: Recently we have seen the government of Saskatchewan lay off a large number of staff in the Department of Agriculture. On April 30, is it this minister's intent to tell her staff of the Department of Agriculture how many jobs will be lost and who will lose their jobs? Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, that may be the member opposite's style but I can tell you that we work in a much different way than they do. We have put into the Budget that there will be 400 jobs that will be reduced through attrition, and there will not be layoff announcements. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, this Premier's Throne Speech last November said his Government would, and I quote, "Listen with respect to the views of the citizens of our province, work hard to find common ground, encourage co-operation and build consensus, unite our province and not divide it and govern fairly for all citizens in all regions of Manitoba." Does the Premier stand by those words as they applauded on the other side, or is he going to go against what he said he would do in the Throne Speech and force unionization on companies, force workers that are not part of a union to pay union dues?

Will he stand by what he believes in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, or will he stand by what we just heard applauded today, something completely different? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I thought the member was rising to apologize for his error on ambulance services. We still await his correction of the factual record, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Well, thank you, Mr . Speaker.

If there is any apology required in this province, it is clearly from the Premier of the province of Manitoba who is forcing non-unionized companies to be part of a union, who is forcing hardworking Manitobans to pay union dues to satisfy his appetite. That is where the apology should be. Mr. Speaker, I am fascinated and I hope that the Premier also had a chance to read an interesting report that came out of the Winnipeg Free Press. The

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1151 construction of the MTS Centre does not have a labour agreement, but according to reports is going to be delivered on time and on budget. The same can happen with the floodway. It is possible to make that happen. Why does the Premier not do the right thing and listen to what Manitobans are saying, that is, to take forced unionization off the table, to take the issue of forcing hardworking Manitobans who are not part of a union to pay union dues? Why does he not do the right thing? Mr.

Doer: Well, I am glad the member opposite is now celebrating the new entertainment complex arena. Members on this side, when we were involved in the partnership for that arena, members opposite voted against it, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I understand that this is a very sensitive question for this Premier. It is very sensitive because he is incapable of answering a very straightforward question. It is something that is important to all Manitobans. Perhaps this Premier would listen to Mr.

John Neill, who is overseeing the construction of the MTS Centre, who said that the biggest thing on these jobs is to mould the team and get it to pull together. According to him, harmony is pivotal, and you are only as strong as the weakest link. In this debate about expanding the floodway, the Premier is the weakest link in this negotiation because he wants to force non-unionized companies to pay union dues. What is interesting is that the original floodway was built without a project labour agreement. The Z- dike was built without a project labour agreement.

The MTS Centre is being built without a project labour agreement and apparently all on budget and on time. Why does this Premier not do the right thing and listen to Manitobans, take forced unionization off the table, stop trying to force non-unionized workers to pay union dues and get on with building the floodway? * (14:00) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, it was only a couple of years ago that the member opposite was running around with the Leader of the Liberal Party opposing the new entertainment complex.

You know, tying a yellow ribbon around the old Eaton's building which, when we came into office, was a building that was shuttered up along with almost every other building on Portage Avenue. We have rebuilt downtown Winnipeg against the objections of members opposite, Mr. Speaker. The PCL management group has done an excellent job with the entertainment complex. They have done an excellent job at Brandon with the general hospital, building a hospital. They have been tendered out to do the Health Sciences Centre. Brandon is on time on budget. There are other examples of labour management agreements.

I am not sure whether Wally Fox-Decent will recommend going as far as the member's friend, Brian Mulroney. I do not know whether Brian Mulroney's model, which of course was embraced by the Leader of the Opposition when he worked for him, will be the model or whether it will be some- thing else, but I would ask the member opposite to go to page 98, read the numbers, Mr. Speaker, and apologize to the House for his error. Construction Industry Wages Act Review Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, before a shovel has even gone into the ground, the Doer government has, through stubborn ideology and poor management, made a public shamble of the floodway expansion project. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Labour listen to construction industry employers who say if wages are the stumbling block for the Premier to move away from forced unioni- zation, then open up and review The Construction Industry Wages Act? Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): I would just like to inform the member that The Construction Industry Wages Act is

an act that I have had the opportunity to dialogue with the construction industry leadership. As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) knows, Ron Hambley of the Winnipeg Construction Association, who lives in his constituency, is one of those people that I have had the opportunity to speak with. We have had very good discussions in regard to The Construction Industry Wages Act, Mr. Speaker, and we will continue to dialogue with them. Mr. Goertzen: Lots of dialogue, Mr. Speaker, but very few decisions.

1152 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Water Stewardship refers in the media to the $700-million floodway expansion project. The floodway authority refers in news releases to the $660-million floodway expansion project. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) says, "Well, there really is not a budget." The Premier last week says, "Well, maybe there are other things we have to consider before we have an overall budget." Mr.

Speaker, why can this Government not simply provide Manitobans, who are paying for the project, a line-by-line budget before the Winnipeg floodway expansion project becomes the NDP sinkhole? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Mr. Speaker, once again we have the members opposite being unable to read this document. It is called the Estimates of Expenditure. If the members opposite care to check, there is in fact a line item in terms of the floodway which reflects the budget. It is $9.12 million in this year's Budget.

It reflects our 50% share of the projected expenditures that are expected this year. I would expect that members opposite might want to read the budget document that was tabled by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). We budgeted this year, and I want to stress again, unlike members opposite, it is not a "may" for us. We are going to build the floodway expansion. Mr. Goertzen: Well, Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans will be happy to know that there has been a $691-million reduction in the cost of the floodway expansion, $40 million over budget, three government positions on unionization, additional taxes applied to the project by the Province, no real budget to speak of unless we are $691 million down, secret agreements on details being done in secret and that was only last week. Mr. Speaker, we are wondering what we are going to get for an encore this week.

Will the Minister of Water Stewardship just admit that he was wrong to go down this path and say that a public agreement without forced unionization and forced union dues will be made public? Mr. Ashton: I tell you, Mr. Speaker, normally you expect that opposition parties are attempting at least to put forward some idea that they could be a potential government, but for this member not to understand that there is money budgeted this year– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure the honourable member asked the question to be able to hear the answer.

It is very, very difficult to hear, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Mr. Ashton: If that honourable member does not understand that there is money budgeted this year, in this year's Budget, as part of the overall project, that we will start construction subject to the final environ- mental approvals next year that will take place until the year 2009. You know, I would try to explain this to the members opposite, but they are not interested in building the floodway expansion. Mr. Speaker, they are interested in playing politics with the floodway. That is very obvious to Manitobans.

Budget Tax Increases Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, once upon a time, a big city mayor decided he wanted a new deal. He went out and bought some fine new tax clothes and paraded around town in a wonderful new sales-tax shirt, a new fuel-tax suit and a fancy new liquor-tax tie. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Premier saw the mayor parading around and he said, "We do not want any new tax clothes in our province." Secretly, the Premier was envious of the mayor.

One day when they were at the infectious disease lab and had to change into protective clothing, the Premier excused himself first and, on the way out, he put on the mayor's new tax clothes. I ask the Premier why he is wearing the mayor's new tax clothes when only a short while ago he was saying that we should not have such new taxes in Manitoba. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the only change I have seen in the budget discussion is the member opposite walking around with a bowl of fudge and then voting for the Budget last year.

That is not a little fantasy that was written up for Question Period; those are the facts. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, there is a credibility gap. The City of Winnipeg suggested some solutions. The Premier said no. The Premier then grabbed some of these solutions as his own. The Premier has not only

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1153 taken the mayor's new tax clothes, but he is also applying his new sales tax and diesel taxes to the City of Winnipeg. The Premier then added insult to injury by charging his new tax on liquor purchased by the mayor to entertain visitors and to promote the city and the province. My supplementary to the Premier: I ask the Premier why he is exempting unions from wearing his new tax clothes while requiring the City of Winnipeg to submit to his new taxes. Mr.

Doer: T h e m e m b e r o p p o s i t e w a n t e d u s t o s a y yes to every proposal including an increase of 1% sales tax, province-wide, an increase of 5 cents a litre on gasoline. That is the member opposite's position. Mr. Speaker, we have increased the funding over the last three years to the City of Winnipeg by $10 million. The municipal tax-sharing agreement that is in place in Manitoba is the only one in Canada, does not get a lot of coverage, is not profiled a lot, but it is the equivalent for the City of Winnipeg to 5 cents a litre on gasoline.

The $140 million in revenue that is shared with the City of Winnipeg, including money we backfilled when the federal accounting error took place over the last three years, that amount of money is, I think in terms of gasoline taxes, well over the amount of money that is collected totally in Winnipeg for gaso- line taxes, notwithstanding the fact that we have to fund highways and other infrastructures.

So the member opposite may want to, far be it from me to use Dan Kelly as a source, but during the budget discussions last week he actually said that Manitoba treats the municipal governments with the Municipal Tax Sharing Agreement better than any other province in Canada. Victoria General Hospital Maternity Ward Closure Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Back in 1983, we used to have obstetrics being delivered in our Seven Oaks Hospital, the Concordia Hospital.

In fact, it was the Howard Pawley NDP administration that took out obstetrics in those two very important hospitals. At the time the New Democratic govern- ment MLAs sat on their hands and did nothing, which was most unfortunate. * (14:10) Today, if I could, my question should be going to the member from St. Norbert or members from Fort Garry, Riel, Seine River. These are the members that are on the government benches that need to ensure that their voices are in fact being heard.

My question to the Minister of Health is: Will the Minister of Health acknowledge that, by defini- tion, the community hospital means community health care services being delivered, and there are important communities in the south end of Winnipeg that do have and do merit having obstetrics? Will the Government make the commitment today that obstetrics will continue to be delivered through the Victoria Hospit al, because we appear to see no backbench support for that particular initi- ative? An Honourable Member: It is silent over there. Mr. Lamoureux: The silence is deafening. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to be part of the Government that has expanded services at Seven Oaks Hospital to include dialysis and to include additional treatments and is in the process of expanding the ER at Victoria Hospital, something that did not happen over the past decade. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated Friday, we do want the option of community obstetrics for people of Winnipeg. We have expanded and put in place midwifery. We have put in LDRP, which is a community option both at St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre for women.

In the past six or seven years, the number of births at that particular hospital has gone from 1400 when an inquest took place down to 800. I have asked the WRHA to take a look at those numbers and to come back with recommendations, but we do want a community option. Mr. Speaker, I should indicate to the member that it would help if the federal government had not cut out $104 million from the health budget this year, the federal Liberal government. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

1154 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure the honourable Member for St. Norbert appreciates the ovation on behalf of the members, but we still have to be able to hear the questions, please. Immigration Statistics Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): I do actually really appreciate the applause. Notwithstanding, the Government made a commitment to increase immi- gration annually to 10 000 people. Last year we saw immigration increase to 6500 people. Mr. Speaker, can the minister advise this House how immigration levels this year compare to last year at this time? Hon.

Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to answer this question, and I am sorry that the mem- bers opposite do not share the view that Manitoba's immigration strategy keeps Manitoba competitive. I am very pleased to answer this question. In 2003 we saw a 40% increase in our immi- gration levels, and in the first quarter of this year we saw our levels increase by another 38 percent. We have also made a commitment in this Budget to put more resources into settlement services and we will continue, Mr.

Speaker, to raise the bar in Mani- toba because more than 70 percent of all provincial nominees that come to Canada, come to Manitoba. Victoria General Hospital Maternity Ward Closure Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I am astounded that the member from St. Norbert would stand up and ask a question and not ask the Minister of Health to live up to his promise to keep the maternity ward open. The minister knows the reason for the decline in births is from a lack of his support. Mr.

Speaker, more family doctors are refusing to do obstetrics in the area because they are afraid they are going to have to go all the way to Health Sciences, all the way to St. Boniface Hospital, and they cannot run a prac- tice giving obstetrical services in hospitals that far away. I would ask the minister today if he would stand up in this House, stand up for the people in Fort Garry, stand up for the people in St. Norbert and live up to his promise to provide the necessary funding to keep the ward open at Victoria Hospital. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Since 1999, there are 156 more doctors practising in Manitoba than there were under the Conservatives. Since 1999, there are 879 more nurses registered to practise in Manitoba than when the Conservatives were in office. Mr. Speaker, 70 percent of our budget costs are wages and salaries that go to those new nurses, those new doctors, those other new health care professionals, and every day they tell us we are spending too much. They cannot have it both ways. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I do not quite understand why the minister is so angry.

All I am asking him to do is stand up for the citizens in Fort Garry, citizens in Fort Whyte, the citizens in St. Norbert and provide the services they need. He refuses to answer the question. The problem is there are fewer and fewer family doctors providing obstetrical services in those areas because he refuses to stand up and make a strong case for keeping that maternity ward open. It is a simple, simple thing to do, Mr. Minister.

All he has to do is stand up in this House, indicate he is going to provide the necessary resources to Victoria Hospital not only to keep the ward open but to bring it up to date, to provide funding for an obstetrician on a 24- hour basis and the equipment needed. I would ask the minister today if he will stand with the member from St. Norbert, if he will stand with the member from Fort Garry and stand with me to keep that ward open. Mr. Chomiak: Last year and the year before and the year before, the Regional Health Authority got more funding. Victoria Hospital got more funding.

It was not like the 1990s when members opposite gave zero, zero, minus 2, minus 2 and zero. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but we are under- taking a capital project at Victoria Hospital that was on the books and avoided by members opposite year after year after year. He knows that. They talked about it; we are doing it. Mr. Loewen: The trouble is this minister is talking about it but he is not doing anything about it. It is a simple request. We heard from this Government how

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1155 in 1999 they were going to ignore the needs of the citizens of south Winnipeg by not building an underpass. Now we hear they are going to ignore the needs of south Winnipeg by not assuring that this maternity ward is going to stay open. I would advise the minister the citizens ar e upset. They are going to mount the same type of campaign that the Premier had to deal with, and he is going to have to change his priorities. I would ask him once again. Will you stand with the member from Fort Garry? Will you stand with the member from St. Norbert?

Will you stand for the citizens of south Winnipeg, stand up today and make a strong commitment, the maternity ward will stay open and be updated. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I would note that for 11 years the members opposite were not able to achieve a Kenaston underpass. I would note that there now is a plan to build it. One government does it. One group of people just raise their voices. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have from École Saint-Lazare 14 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mlle. Laura Audet. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Community Access Centre Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, today we are taking a major step forward in improving the health of our communities. Earlier today, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) officially op ened the first community access centre in Winnipeg, Access River East. In attendance at the opening was our M.P., Mr. Bill Blaikie, our city councillor, Lillian Thomas, and my legislative colleagues, the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), the Me mber for Transcona (Mr. Reid) and the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson). Mr.

Speaker, this new centre will provide more than 90 000 residents of northeastern Winnipeg with improved access to health and social services including a primary health clinic, midwifery, home care, child and family services, children's special services, child daycare licensing and co-ordination, community mental health services, employment services for persons with disabilities, vocational rehabilitation, employment and income assistance, public health, a senior's health resource team and supported living * (14:20) This new centre makes it much easier for indi- viduals and families to find the essential services they need to stay well.

Delivering integrated health and social services from community sites allows staff to be more focussed on the unique needs of people and that means better co-ordination of services and improved care. There are a number of excellent facilities in the building including well-equipped clinic rooms, an audiology lab, a comfortable waiting area, private consultation rooms, a community kitchen and edu- cation rooms, and meeting places available to the community.

I would like to point out there are currently 170- plus staff and three doctors working at the centre with two more doctors to be on staff by July, plus two mental health workers are currently there. In addition, Mr. Speaker, there are some 300 home care workers currently working out of the centre. Students from four local high schools, Elmwood, Kildonan East, Mennonite Brethren and River East, are designing a mural for th e children's waiting area and they will be painting that mural in the coming weeks. Mr.

Speaker, there is also a beautiful round room that acknowledges the important contribution that Aboriginal culture makes to the health of our com- munity. The centre will provide– Mr. Speaker: Order. Manitoba Tourism Awards Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to put a few words on the

1156 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 record on the 2003 Manitoba Tourism Awards. It was my pleasure to attend the Rural Forum Gala Dinner on April 23 where the Manitoba Tourism Awards were presented. It was a wonderful time to celebrate the successes of Manitoba's tourism industry with industry leaders, busine sses and some honourable colleagues. Mr. Speaker, th ere are so many Mani- tobans who contribute to the positive experience of fellow Canadians, international travellers or of Manitobans exploring their own province and I would like to acknowledge and thank them for their efforts.

Congratulations to all the nominees for the 2003 Manitoba Tourism Awards. All people working within the tourism industry truly deserve our recog- nition and thanks for the work they are doing in ensuring people feel welcome and have an enjoyable time in our fine province. I would like to congratulate those people who received the tourism awards this past weekend. Erwin Olazo of the Sheraton Hotel won the long- time service award. Simone Neveux received the Ambassador Service Award. There were two recipi- ents of the volunteer award, Jack Forsyth of Forsyth Agencies and the Goldwing Ambassador Program.

Joie de Vivre received the marketing award. The Delta Hotel received the Service Excellence Award. The towns of Killarney, Boissevain and Deloraine received the Community Partnership Award. Mr. Speaker, there were also two recipients for the Innovation Award, the Roblin Snowmobile Association and the Foxwarren Memory Garden Committee. The Red River North Tourism Com- mittee received the Media Award, and the Eco- Tourism Award went to the Falcon Trails Resort. The Manitoba Tourism Awards recognize those that have led and contribute to the growth and success of Manitoba's tourism industry.

The indi- viduals, towns, businesses and organizations I have mentioned are truly deserving of this honour. In closing, once again, I would like to congratulate the recipients on the awards and encourage them as they continue so graciously to host and serve Manitoba. Thank you. Brandon Wheat Kings Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, it is with pride and great delight that I rise in the House today to commend the Brandon Wheat Kings AAA midget hockey team on their outstanding performance this weekend at the National Midget Hockey Championship in Kenora, where they won the Canadian national title.

Today this team can probably call themselves national champions. Brandonites will rightfully brag that we are home to the AAA midget national championship hockey team. Mr. Speaker, under the direction of head coach Craig Anderson, the Wheat Kings beat Québec's Collège Charles-Lemoyne 2 to 1 in the final game to win the championship. While this is only the latest

chapter for a city and a team with a long-standing tradition of hockey excellence, it does mark the first time ever that a team from Brandon has won this national championship. In fact, this is Manitoba's first ever medal at the National Midget Hockey Championship, and it is a gold. The Wheat Kings are a staple in the Westman sporting scene, supported not just by Brandon residents but by fans from a wide surrounding area. Fan support is unwavering. This championship only shows the rest of the coun try what Brandon already knew, that we have the best midget hockey in the country.

Of course, it is the players, the coaches and their families who have made the sacrifices and com- mitted the time and energy in order to achieve this great honour we all now share. The hard work involved in even getting to a national championship is incredible. To win is a testament to the sacrifices they have made in the sport. I would ask the House to join me in commending these young athletes on this most impressive achievement. To repeat a quote from the Brandon Wheat Kings team, "We are the best in Canada." What more can you say? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Lisa Pao Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): It is my pleasure to rise today to acquaint all honourable members of this Assembly with a young resident of

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1157 Portage la Prairie whose academic, extra-curricular and community activities, quite simply stated, are exemplary. Currently, she maintains not only the highest academic standing in her Senior 4 class at the Portage Collegiate Institute but could quite possibly graduate with the highest standing in the most courses ever in the 110-year history of PCI. Some of her extra-curricular activities include archiving a photographic history of PCI, captaining the "Reach for the Top" team and chee rleading for the school's athletes. She has been active within our community as secretary of the Children's Wish Foundation local

chapter and is responsible for the creation of Pao Gardens, a beautiful Oriental-themed rest area with trees and shrubs, significantly enhancing the William Glesby Centre in downtown Portage la Prairie. A Provincial Music and Arts Festival silver medalist, she is working toward her Grade 9 level pianist exam at the Royal Conservatory of Music. As well, she plays violin, clarinet, tenor and baritone saxophones. Speaking four languages, English, French, Cantonese and Ma ndarin, Mr.

Speaker, she has travelled countless times into Winnipeg to voluntarily teach linguistic skills to Chinese children, for which, I am pleased to say, on April 21, 2004, our First Minister (Mr. Doer) presented her with the Premier's Volunteer Service Award. Interested in science and a career in medicine, she has accepted an invitation extended to her by the prestigious Harvard University to pursue her studies. Mr. Speaker, I would like to extend on behalf of all honourable members of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly our congratulations to Ms.

Lisa Pao, daughter of George and Meida Pao, for demon- strating excellence, determination and the will to succeed in all aspects of her life. Thank you. Winnipeg Airport Terminal Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr. Speaker, the Winnipeg Airports Authority has just today announced plans for a phased-in airport site redevelopment. As the ML A for St. James, I was delighted and proud to join the Premier (Mr.

Doer), several of my colleagues and many other guests for the exciting announcement made by Art Mauro, chair of the WAA board, and Barry Rempel, CEO of the airport, of a new airport terminal building, a building of 60 000 square metres that will be located northeast of the existing facility. This exciting project is targeted for completion in 2009, with some additional structures such as parking and site services to be completed earlier. Mr.

Speaker, this redevelopment will make a significant contribution to the future of Winnipeg and will enhance Manitoba's position as a major centre of economic, cultural and comm unity activity and as a hub of international air traffic. Our airport is visited by 4 million people a year, including 3 million passengers and 100 000 tonnes of cargo. Mr. Speaker, the usage of the airport facilities has increased more than five times the original capacity since the existing building was built 40 years ago but deteriorated rapidly.

Several audits have shown that renovating the current terminal would be more expensive than constructing a new one. Total cost of the program is estimated at around $350 million, including $200 million for the new terminal building. The Winnipeg Airports Authority, which is undertaking this pr oject, is a not-for-profit community-based corporation which is 100 percent self-sufficient, receiving no government funding. All revenues, including the airport improvement fee, are being reinvested into meeting the community's avia- tion needs. * (14:30) Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of all members of the House, I would like to heartily congratulate the Winnipeg Airports Authority on the announcement of the redevelopment project. I look forward to seeing the positive results as this growth and development takes place. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ADJOURNED DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and the proposed motion of the honourable

1158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 Leader of the Official Op position (Mr. Murray) in amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of the honourable Member for Ri ver Heights (Mr. Gerrard) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Tuxedo who has seven min- utes remaining. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): In conclusion, I am sorry but I will not be able to support this Budget. This Government is clearly taking Manitoba in the wrong direction, Mr. Speaker, and I am very concerned about a number of things in this Budget.

An increase in taxes of more than $90 million, and enforcing employees of the floodway expansion to become members of a union, is unproductive and not conducive to growing our economy and keeping young people in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, cutting school programs while beefing up administration costs in no way creates a better quality of education for our children in our province. Health care costs continue to rise, yet wait- ing lists are on the rise and people continue to line our hospital hallways. Criminal activity continues to rise, and the Premier (Mr.

Doer) continues to make promises that he cannot or is not willing to keep. Mr. Speaker, I encourage all members of this House to vote against this Budget and in favour of the amendment to be put forward by our leader, the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray). Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure and an honour to put a few words on record regardin g the Manitoba Budget 2004. I am listening with great interest to the various views expressed in this House, and it is quite obvious that there is a fair degree of ideological positioning going on.

It seems obvious to me that the Tories are not going to vote for this Budget even though we, not too long ago, remember voting for a Tory budget. I assume that members on this side will definitely support this Budget because it is a good budget, and the Liberal Party, well, I am never too sure what they do. In this atmosphere of claim and counterclaim and propaganda and spin, the ultimate judges really will not be in this Chamber because we are not going to change any minds in here. I am pretty sure of that. The ultimate judges will be the people of Manitoba.

They will decide, in a few years hence, whether or not this was a good budget, whether we as a govern- ment were on track or not on track, and I have great faith in the people of Manitoba. I understand that this Budget, Mr. Speaker, was a tough budget for us. I am aware of that. I think all Manitobans are aware of that. We have gone through some challenging times.

To mention some of those challenging issues that cr eated these difficult times: the BSE crisis which devastated family farm income; the forest fires wi th the second larg est forest fire season in history; there was drought; the higher Canadian dollar does not help us very much when we are so depended upon exports, it helps us in some sectors but it also hurts us; low water levels for Hydro did not improve the fiscal situations for us; slowdown in national economic growth did not help us all across this nation, so times were tough, and when times are tough you have to make the books balance anyway.

Manitoba families know that. They know how to balance their budgets and they do the best they can. I think that the Minister of Finance did an amazing job in these difficult times and he should be commended for this Budget. This is after all a balanced budget following the Tories' own guide- lines. This is a balanced budget in the fifth straight year, and it is the first balanced Budget ever to pay down debt and pension liabilities without making a draw on the fiscal stabilization fund. Talking about pension liabilities, Mr.

Speaker, I do not remember when the members of the Oppo- sition were in power that they ever, ever addressed that issue. I would also point out, that in this Budget, no sector in this province is ignored, no peoples in this province are ignored. The North is included, definitely included. And if you want to get down to brass tacks, the bottom line is there is 5% more disposable income for Manitobans in the last five years than there was before. In fact, under the Tories the last five years it was 5% less. We have the lowest inflation rate in the country.

If we do not have the lowest Autopac rates, I am pretty sure we are close to the lowest. We certainly have the lowest hydro rates in the country. Talking about low hydro rates, in fact they are not only the lowest, I think they have been lowered. When we equalized hydro rates, remember it cost Hydro $14 million, so farmers and northerners are paying less. So equalized hydro rates actually meant lower rates. And rates have not increased for the average consumer for seven years, and for the large corporate interests they have not increased for twelve years. I think this is amazing.

Where else do you know where you can buy something that has not

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1159 increased in price over seve n years or twelve years? Only in Manitoba. Compare that to the Tory years, '92, '93, three- quarters of a billion dollar deficit. In fact, it was more than three-quarters of a billion dollars, after the Pawley government left them $58-million surplus in 1988. From a surplus we have gone to deficits by 1992, 1993, of over three-quarters of a billion dollars. We have other debacles. There was not only the health care cuts, there was the nurses that were laid off, 1000 nurses. There was the SmartHealth debacle.

There was a frozen food fiasco. There were attempts to privatize home care and, Mr. Speaker, we all know the Connie Curran saga. Give $6 million to an American consultant because allegedly they are better than Canadian consultants. Only members of the Opposition would believe that. What did this consultant tell us? Cut back, cut back, slash, cut back. And of course above all, the former govern- ment sold MTS in order to stick money in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and thus balance the books that way. It is no wonder then that Manitobans opted for change in 1999, and I think they opted for positive change.

But, as I said before– An Honourable Member: –and 2003. Mr. Jennissen: – and in 2003, as my honourable colleague said. We are continuing on that same path. But, as I said before, speeches in this House will not change any opinions in this House; Manitobans will ultimately decide whether the course we embarked on in 1999 is indeed the correct course, as I believe it is. But there are divergent opinions. Let me give you a couple of examples. On budget day, CJOB, the radio station in this city which is hardly a left-wing radio station, I do not think anyone is going to confuse Charles Adler with Fidel Castro.

It is hardly a left-wing radio station, and in a dialogue that morning before the Budget even came down, Larry Updike, the host, and Professor Norman Cameron from the University of Manitoba were chatting. I would like to sort of play that back a little bit. I would like to recreate that situation. Here is the dialogue. Updike says: "Has this Government been a good fiscal manager?" Professor Cameron says: "Yes, yes.

I think that Manitoba governments over the past 15 to 20 years have been the best in Canada." Updike says: "Wow, including this crowd here." Cameron says: "Yeah, oh, especially this crowd, yeah." Updike: "Especially this crowd?" Cameron: "Yeah." Updike: "Why is that? Why is that the case?" Cameron: "Well, the NDP government is not the one that you most expect to be fiscally conservative, and they have. Now the Tories you expect that but of course remember." Updike: "Pardon the pauses. That does not work on radio, I realize that, but your words are having that effect on me.

I think that probably people looking out the window at people driving, they are going, wow." Cameron: "Well remember in the last election it was the Tories that were going to give away the banks." Updike: "That's true. Cameron: "It was not the NDP." Updike: "But they said"–they being the Tories– "that they could do that and get away with it." Cameron says: "Well, they said it, but none of us believed it." Updike: "You didn't believe it?" Cameron: "No, I thought they were giving away far too much.

When I wa s on the Lower Tax Com- mission we thought taxes could be lowered, but not that far." And that is the end of the dialogue. But what I think is important is that whatever the professor is saying is leaving Mr. Updike temporarily speechless, because he is saying several things. For one thing, he

1160 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 is saying we have had good government in Manitoba for the last 15 to 20 years, and that does include the Filmon government to some degree. The Filmon government did some things right, but he is also saying clearly that the New Democratic Party gov- ernment is doing a better job. I think that is critical. He is also implying, Mr. Speaker, that when the Tories promise huge tax cuts or huge giveaways, the public does not believe it. They simply do not believe it because they cannot promise huge tax cuts and still maintain services. How are you going to do that?

The income is not going to be there. There might be some ways around that and I suspect the Tories had ways around that. Suppose they had been elected in 1999 or 2003. Suppose that would have happened. How were they going to keep their expensive promises, massive tax cuts, increase in spending? You cannot suck and blow at the same time, and yet they promised it. * (14:40) I suppose, Mr. Speaker, that the Tories had another plan. I know they are intelligent enough to have a backup plan, and I think I know what that backup plan is or was.

I think the backup plan was that we sold MTS once and it saved our bacon, and we can sell Hydro and that will save our bacon again. I think that was the plan. I believe that the people of Manitoba expected that to be the plan. They did not like it and they voted against it. The privatization of Hydro, as you know, Mr. Speaker, is not on the agenda for the people of Manitoba. So even a hint, even a whiff, even a faint suggestion that the Tories might go this route, I think, spooks the people of Manitoba and I do not blame them.

After all, it was former Premier Filmon who said, "I have no intentions of selling MTS." Of course, we know where that promise left the people of Manitoba. Members opposite, like a broken record, keep demanding tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Where were their tax cuts when they we re in office for 11 years, Mr. Speaker? Where were their tax cuts? Not only that, they talk about taxes as if they were a universal evil. Well, they just talk about taxes. We actually cut them. But are taxes a universal evil?

I suggest that the members opposite should read the speech on the Budget given by the member of Wellington when he explains, I think, most lucidly why taxes are important. Mr. Speaker, no one wants higher taxes. No government wants higher taxes, but taxes are the price you pay for civilization to keep minimum programs operating. That is what the Member for Wellington (Mr. Santos) tried to point out.

He made good theoretical reference to liberal capitalism which recognizes the existence and the need of some form of government, to the capitalism to which we are now shifting and which the Opposition seems to be embracing somewhat, that is, libertarian capitalism, which privatizes all public functions. In other words, privatize it if it moves because it is better. The implicit belief is that the less government, the better.

There is a limit to that, folks but, apparently, the Tories on that side are shifting away from the progressive aspect of being a Progressive Conservative to the much more radical, right-wing extremist attitude embraced by the Conservatives of the country, which is really a Republican vision of the right, not the Progressive Conservative vision of the right which is much more flexible and has a heart, the Red Tories. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that total privati- zation is the answer.

It sort of reminds me of the L'il Abner cartoons of the past where they would have a character in there called General Bullmoose who used to go around saying, "If it's good for me, it's good for everybody." Well, that is not true. Just because it is good for big business sometimes it does not necessarily follow it is good for ordinary citizens. It is a very dangerous direction to go, Mr. Speaker, when the members opposite start harping on tax cuts, tax cuts and tax cuts. In reference to that I would like to quote last Friday's editorial page in the Free Press, my favourite editorial writer, Frances Russell.

Her editorial is entitled "Taxes pay for civilization." Let me read a few quotes because the members opposite, maybe, need to refresh their memories. She says that when big business or business lobbies incessantly for tax cuts, "at least business is consistent. The same cannot be said for the Conservatives. They ceaselessly demand lower taxes and higher spending while threatening to unleash the Red Scare at the mere mention of a deficit.

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1161 "Budget day was Red Scare Day. The govern- ment that has handed out $301 million in tax cuts and paid off $480 million in debt since 1999 was excoriated by Conservative Leader Stuart Murray for not delivering a balanced budget." Mr. Speaker: I hate to interrupt the honourable member, but I have been consistent with the ruling that, when addressing other members, it is by their constituencies or ministers by their portfolios and not members by their names. I have been consistent with that, and I will tend to be consistent with that. Mr.

Jennissen: I apologize, Mr. Sp eaker. The refer- ence is to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray). To continue Frances Russell's statement, she says, "Retreat from governance has taken on a life of its own, fuelled as it is by a proliferation of business lobbies, right-wing think tanks, so-called 'taxpayer' and 'citizen' groups, and a largely supportive media. Even a nominally progressive government like Manitoba's cannot stand against it without imperil- ling its survival." She ends up, Mr. Speaker, if I can just quote the last paragraph.

"The right's argument that tax cuts increase government revenue by stimulating more economic activity is ultimately self-contradictory. Taken to its logical conclusion, a government would be rolling in money at the point it collected no taxes at all. "There is a new saying worthy of memoriali- zing," and that saying is: "If you don't like taxes, try Haiti." That is the end of the quote from Frances Russell. Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is obvious you cannot draw a parallel by saying no taxes equals utopia. It cannot be done. Then Haiti would be utopia. It is really nonsense.

It is oversimplification, the same simplification, if you will indulge me, that the Americans used I think around 1917 in the Volstead Act. Their argument was we have serious problems with alcohol in the country, possibly they never looked at the social reasons for drinking and substance abuse, so let us abolish alcohol. It seemed like such a simple solution, the Volstead Act. But you know what happened? That was the act, Prohibi- tion, that really launched organized crime.

When you try and solve a very complex problem in a simplistic manner, inevitably you run into all kinds of quagmires, and I would suggest that the mantra that is being repeated in the benches of the Opposition, tax cut, tax cut, tax cut, has that same inevitable result if you keep going that direction. At some point you have to realize that taxes buy civilization. They pay for teachers and doctors and roads and infrastructure. I mean there is a logical reason why we have taxes. You cannot just assume that you can privatize everything and that big business will take care of us. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I personally do not have that great faith in the morals of the marketplace. I do not think the marketplace is God. I simply think we need government, decent government, honest gov- ernment, straightforward government as an arbiter in the destiny of peoples so that the most impoverished and the most needy do not get left by the wayside. An extreme right-wing thinking leads to extremely poor people and more violence. And there are no simple solutions as they seek south of the border. You got a problem? You have a war on.

The war on drugs, the war on communism, the war on terrorism, the war on you name it. Have they solved any one of those problems? The answer is no. So I would suggest, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that right-wing direction that some members of the Opposition are embarking on, and which certainly the federal party which is now no longer the progressive party, Progressive Conservative Party, is embarking on, is a dangerous direction. Canadians see that as an extremist direction. Canadians are not extremist by nature. They want to solve the problem. They are practical.

I suggest this is a practical government and I think these are practical solutions, and I think this is a practical budget, and I think the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) has done a wonderful job. Mr. Deputy Speaker, wh en we are arguing in this pro-con, she-said-he-said welter of statistics, there are some statistics I would volunteer to give the members of the Opposition. I do not want to be triumphalistic about this. I do not want to sound arro- gant about this, because I honestly do not want to be.

But the statistic you should look at seriously, we all should look at, that in 1988 when this party was down to 12 seats and the next election 20, the next election 23, the next election 32, the next election 35,

1162 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 shows to me a trend. Now most trends do not last forever, and I know there will be an end to it and there will be a plateauing and there will be a downturn. But I think that the people of Manitoba since 1988 have been putting more and more trust in the New Democratic Party's philosophy than before, and that is why we formed government. I do not think this is a left-wing, radical govern- ment, as the members opposite would like to paint us.

That is why I think the people of Manitoba have said, "You make a lot of sense, but the Tories do not make a lot of sense when they promise these crazy tax cuts that are not sustai nable or these huge gifts that are not sustainable." I mean, the people of Manitoba, give them a little credit, they are smarter than that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I could go on and on, on this point, but I am belabouring it, I am sure. We have affordable gove rnment today. We still emphasize our priorities, and our No. 1 priority is health care. It has always been our No. 1 priority.

After all, this was the party that built medicare, believe it or not, and we certainly would be the last party to imperil medicare. There is a 5.2% increase in the health care budget. That is a pretty large increase considering the difficult economic times we are in right now. We continue to reform the health care system, Mr. Deputy Speaker– An Honourable Member: Not very well. * (14:50) Mr. Jennissen: The member says, "Not very well," but I would say, compared to the record of the former government, we are doing sterling. An Honourable Member: Sterling? Mr. Jennissen: Sorry, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that would remind us of Sterling Lyon. We are expanding equipment, more resources. I can mention the latest technology, more MRIs, more CT scans, the latest technology such as the gamma knife. Compare that to the stuff we had before , the Connie Currans, as I mentioned, this SmartHealth stuff, the frozen foods, the attempt to privatize home care, and so on and so on. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are also putting $5.6 million more into Pharmacare. Yes, the deductibles have gone up 5 percent, but there is wider drug coverage and many more dollars are available.

Was it not the Tories that cut Pharmacare by 20 percent, if I am correct? We are trying to save the system. We are trying to save the system. Mr. Deputy Speaker, ce rtainly the formulary has been much expanded and there are no Connie Currans here. There are no attempts to privatize health care, and certainly we do not even talk about SmartHealth. Also, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are creating more opportunities for young people. Funding for schools is up $17.6 million. The tuition on universities and colleges is 10 percent below 1999 levels. Where else is this happening?

More young people are coming into the province, returning to the province, because there is hope here. Our population has grown. Take a look at the infrastructure. It is not only the skyline of Winnipeg that is changing, the True North Centre, the MTS Centre, the downtown Red River College, and so on, the Hydro building that is coming in the future. It is happening all across the province. I can talk about Flin Flon where we have what we call the Flintoba Mall. Do you know what the Flintoba Mall is? It is a new shopping mall.

It may not be a big deal in Winnipeg, but it is a huge deal for us in northern Manitoba, particularly in Flin Flon. Do you know where it is built, Mr. Deputy Speaker? It is built on a huge flat chunk of marsh- land that once belonged to Peter Pocklington. Do you remember Peter Pocklington? People were going around with buttons on Peter Pocklington saying stuff like, "Save a Pig, Pickle Pocklington." Well, I do not want to get into that. An Honourable Member: Peter Puck. Mr. Jennissen: Mr. Pocklington, Mr.

Puck, as somebody mentioned him, owned that chunk of land in his quest for more money and more glory, but once he realized he could not make that much money on it, he just left it. It sa t there for 30 years. It was this Government in conjunction with the federal gov- ernment, in conjunction with the City of Flin Flon under the infrastructure program that built that mall. Now we have some nice, big stores there, Mr.

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1163 Deputy Speaker. We can shop. Northerners can shop and they have some– An Honourable Member: Shop until you drop. Mr. Jennissen: Shop until you drop, as the member says. It is really a big issue for people up there because they used to have to go to Thompson or to Prince Albert or Saskatoon or wherever to shop, to get the kind of competitive shopping they wanted. Now we have it in Flin Flon. So we have done many things in infrastructure, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That is just one of them.

Regarding highways, this is the third year we are into the $120-million-a-year infrastructure expansion with highways. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we will do significant work on resurfacing No. 6 highway and there will be other major projects such as twinning the northeast

section of the Perimeter Highway, twinning the Trans-Canada west of Virden. Let us talk about the floodway expansion, Mr. Deputy Speaker, huge project. I do not know, I cannot believe that I am hearing my ears when I see Tories out there blasting the floodway expansion project and they keep hammering about labour unions and labour contracts. How about getting the floodway built? We are not into a war with labour like they would like to have.

They are always at war with somebody, nurses, teachers, labour unions, and I really, really resent when a friend of mine, Rob Hilliard, is being attacked in the back benches here, being called, you know, "Well, he is your union boss." Well, you know, if he is a union boss, he is a pretty gentle union boss. I meet with this gentleman on occasion. He is a decent human being. He is a great union leader. He is a wonderful Manitoban. He runs a democratic union organization, a group of unions. Like, what is wrong with that? Why is he evil? Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I can only come to the conclusion that members opposite have embraced the extreme right's philosophy that all unions are bad, that all unionized labour is bad, that people should not make decent wages. I would suggest to them they go back to the history of the labour unions and the trade union movement in this country. We fought for decades and decades and decades to get decent wages and decent living standards and decent working conditions, and this Government will continue to work on that level.

So I am really disappointed that they would take the cheap shots at such revered people as Rob Hilliard. I find that personally quite insulting. Mr. Deputy Speaker, in fact, I could add at this point on the 28th of April, many Canadians and many Manitobans will be involved with a day of mourning which was instituted by Rod Murphy as a backbencher bill in Ottawa a number of years ago. I think we should all be proud to walk with organized or unorganized labour compatriots, walk with them and honour the memory of those who were killed in the workplace or who were injured in the workplace.

Instead of attacking labour and attacking workers, you have to deal with them. The Tory party, I will give you some free advice. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Tory party is not going to go anywhere if it does not treat workers decently and has a good relationship with working people, including unionized labour and including Aboriginal people and including all northerners. If you are going to continue ignoring large sectors of this province, you will never be elected. You have to be a little bit more, shall we say, creative, than you are at the present.

This Government also has provided more support for children and families: the 11% increase for the Supported Living Program to help persons with mental disabilities; $4 million more for child care programs; there is continuing support for the Lighthouses program. I am happy to say we have a Lighthouse program that will be up and going in Flin Flon. This Budget does not ignore northern Manitoba, as former budgets did under the previous admini- stration. I remember only too well a number of years when during the Estimates procedure I had to deal with Glen Findlay, who was then the Minister of Highways.

He was a good gentleman, an ethical gentleman, for whom I have great respect, but we could never agree on the North particularly. His argument was, "Well, look, you have only 4 percent

1164 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 or less of the population, so you should only have 4 percent of the budget for roads." That is not acceptable to northerners, because our roads are lifelines. They are long roads. They are difficult roads. Many of them are unpaved. They are in bad shape. Four percent will not cut it. I am very glad that when this Government was elected in 1999, one of the first priorities, next to health care, was to reverse things a little bit and put 25 to 30 percent of the highways budget into the North. I thank my colleague from Thompson, who was instrumental in that.

We would put three times as much money into winter roads. Winter roads are critical in northern Manitoba. Some winter roads in the northwestern sector, my sector of the province, were toll roads, where the poorest of the poor people living on reserves had to pay extra because the food coming in was subject to a toll. We took that off. We removed that. We made life just a little bit easier for northerners. This Budget also has upgraded and improved water quality and waste treatment to 45 northern communities.

This Budget is involved with new Hydro initiatives, or at least this Budget is part of the new Hydro initiative, which Wuskwatim is going to play a major

part in, a $900-million project. It will create many, many jobs. Aboriginal people and northern people are really looking forward to dams once again being built in northern Manitoba so that we can continue to flourish and continue to use the resources that we have. That is not all. There are other directions we are going as well with energy. Ethanol and wind power are also extremely important directions we ought to be investigating, and not only investigating, working on making them come true. I am very happy to see the wind farm at St. Leon.

Also in the North, mineral exploration programs will continue as in the past. It is extremely important to have those mineral exploration programs continue. Mr. Deputy Speaker, $350,000 may not seem like a large amount of money, but it is earmarked in the Conservation Department for cottage lot and camp- site development. Much of that development will take place in northern Manitoba, because we live in a beautiful part of this province. There is $6 million more for housing in remote communities. Mr. Deputy Speaker, a new Northern Healthy Foods Initiative has been launched as well by this Government.

There is money attached to that, because, as I have alluded to before, some of the prices in stores in northern communities are exces- sive, are extremely high. It is the poorest people again who have to pay those prices. It is something we have to address, and we are attempting to address that. We have the University College of the North. I am disappointed that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) actually pooh-poohed this idea. He basically said it was not a good idea. He did not vote for it. He would not support it. I think since then he may have changed his mind.

I hope he has, because the University College of the North is very important to us in northern Manitoba, partially for symbolic reasons, because it tells the rest of Manitoba that we have grown up, that we are mature, that we deserve our own institutions, our own university. I am very happy that this Government has finally made this dream come true, that we have our own University College of the North. Mr. Deputy Speaker, a number of years ago, together with my colleagues in northern Manitoba, we talked about some major initiatives that needed to take place in northern Manitoba.

We isolated, basi- cally, five areas that we needed to focus on: housing, health care, transportation, education, economic development. It came to be known as the Northern Development Strategy. We delivered on each of these aspects. * (15:00) Under the Tories, I sometimes wondered if northern Manitoba really existed. It certainly was on the periphery of things. It certainly never got its fair share. Now I can say that with regard to housing there is $6 million more for northern housing, as I mentioned before. For health care, we have new technology, Telehealth, new ambulances.

For trans- portation, as I said before, we have tripled the amount of money for winter roads. We put a lot more money into northern roads. In education we have the University College of the North. Economic develop- ment, we have got Wuskwatim and other hydro projects, and so on. I see that I am slowly running out of time. I simply want to point out once again for the benefit of

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1165 my colleagues, I really do believe that they need to take stock of where their party is going. I know that all parties go through transitions. I know when CJOB hints that we have become fiscal conservatives, that is, the New Democrats, on the other side, maybe the Progressive Conservatives have dropped their progressive label and have gone too far to the right. I think they have to be very much aware of that. What I really deplore is that they do a lot of talking, but I would like to say that the Tories talk and we deliver.

Now, I know that is not entirely true. They have delivered some good things. Professor Cameron said that under the Filmon Tories some good things did happen, but also, in all honesty, better things happened under the New Democratic administration that embarked on a new road in 1999. We are still walking on that road and we are still progressing satisfactorily. I think the people of Manitoba will give us the benefit of the doubt. They will see that we really mean what we say. They will support us. I hope that members opposite will also consider supporting this wonderful budget. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I too am pleased to put some comments on the record, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have had the opportunity to sit through–I believe this is the ninth budget for the province of Manitoba. I did want to make a couple of comments on some of the things that I had seen in the past and also some of the things that I see in this Budget. There is a time when governments have to be accountable to the people and have to show to the people that what they ar e doing and what they say they are doing are the same thing.

Governments over a period of time are often judged on the things that they say, but, more importantly, over time they are judged on things that they actually do. We have seen a government for the last five years, four years–I believe this is their fifth budget. Is this your fifth budget? It is their fifth budget that they have presented to the people of Manitoba. I want to highlight some of the things that we have heard about, we have talked about, we have debated in here and certainly I think will be of interest to Manitobans.

First and foremost, a budget presents a blueprint or a design of where the Government is going to go in the province, what their priorities are in spending, what their priorities are fo r the people of Manitoba, things that they have heard and, hopefully, are responding to. It is an interesting time. I look back in the past budgets that we have seen this Government present. I want to talk about the first one in the sense of what was promised to Manitobans and then in reality what was delivered to them.

Back in 1999, in September, the current govern- ment ran an election campaign on ending hallway medicine in our hospitals in Manitoba. They talked loudly and proudly across the province about how they would do it, when they could do it and the time frame of six months. They actually put a dollar figure on it, which is something that, you know, at the time, I think, the people of Manitoba were looking for and were asking for and, I suspect, even hoping for.

I think a lot of budgets are presented as a hope for the future, not so much in the sense of a Throne Speech as a vision for the province, a budget kind of puts the hard numbers to that vision. That is what the people of Manitoba believed, were led to believe, and supported. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we know where that went. We certainly know that our health care system, although it has received several large injections of new funding and new money from the federal government and the provincial government, where are we actually today?

We have got a government who presented in their last budget a suggestion that the administration costs of health authorities and of the Health Department should be and could be cut by 10 percent. Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you are managing the economy and you are doing things right, that should have been a priority five years ago. What we have seen is, we have seen a government that has continued to increase the funding to administration, encouraging the growth of administrative costs, neglecting the service side of it, the services that people are expecting and actually need, and it is jeopardizing our health care.

No one would disagree with this Government or with the federal government when they say that our health care is not sustainable at the rate we are going.

1166 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 All of a sudden, their first year, five years as government, they wake up one day and say, "Gee, maybe we should look at our administrative costs and maybe try and do something with that." In reality the numbers show that that is one of the largest increases in the budget documents over the past five years that this Government has failed to address. I think the issue, though, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and as I go through my co mments in regard to the Budget, I think we are going to see a pattern developing here.

I think we are going to see a pattern of a government that has made commitments to all groups of people and the question is will they be able to, or now I think the question that people are asking is can they deliver on what they have said. We certainly know in health care that waiting lists are getting longer. We heard today, and we have heard in the past, that they are talking about reducing services at many of our city hospitals. We know in rural Manitoba that the Government may say that they are not going to cl ose a hospital, but they restrict and reduce funding to all the departments of that hospital.

Management is forced into making decisions on reducing services, and eventually they will close and the Government will stand and again say to Manitobans: "We did not do it; we have a health authority that made that decision. We have empowered them to make that decision. We are saying they should be open and stay open and continue to provide the services." But they do not back up those statements with the actual plan or the funding that is required to do that. A lot of the issues that I find in our health care system are what people are telling me time and time and time again, that they need access to care.

It is not impossible and it is not extremely difficult to make that first contact into our rural health care facilities. What is difficult is getting the next step into the professional or to the specialist who will serve and meet those needs. I think this Government has failed terribly in providing that comfort to those people. You talk to people who are on waiting lists, and have been on waiting lists for months and sometimes years, and at the end of the day, I think that is what is driving the private-public discussions that are out there. People are saying, "We do not care who provides the service to us.

We do not care how or where or why we get it, we want it in a timely fashion," and as long as the quality of that service is maintained, I do not think people are going to be too upset about where or how. In fact, we are seeing it on a daily basis with the amount of people that are going, not only out of province, but out of country to obtain those services. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, another area where this Government, I think, has made promises and has been unable to deliver, and, again, I think it is something that is now starting to show up in the communities that I represent and I believe com- munities all across Manitoba, including Winnipeg. A while back the Premier (Mr. Doer) spoke to a group of people, a group of educators, a group of school trustees, and he made the comment to them, and it is a public comment, and it is on record, that he would never force amalgamation of school divisions in the province of Manitoba.

In fact, he said over and over that that was not the Manitoba way and that is not the way that my office will run, or our Government. Yet, Mr. Deputy Speaker, within months of making that comment, what was the very thing that this Government did? They forced amalgamations upon school divisions that had already been sharing a great amount of services, had shared costs and reduced costs in their administration, and they felt that they were lied to. They felt that the Premier of Manitoba had misled them with his comments and his suggestions.

Over time, people build up resentments that over time will come back, I think, to haunt this Government. One of the other things that they did, and again it shows the continuous pattern of what we see this Government doing, is under the guise of amalgama- tion they suggested to the people in Manitoba that this would save them $10 million. The Minister of Education at the time put that number on it right off the bat. So now we have a government that is saying, "We will not force amalgamations," and then does; says, "We are going to save $10 million dollars," then does not.

We are seeing anywhere from $18- million, $22-million, $24-million increased costs to force the amalgamation that this Government imposed upon people, and again the pattern starts to set up. * (15:10) It is starting to show up, the footprint is starting to show up: "I say one thing when I am in this crowd with a group of people that I know are going to be

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1167 upset with me if I tell them what I am really going to do, I go back to where I am comfortable, in the Legislature, where I do not have to face the public on a day-to-day basis, and I make decisions that impact and actually go against everything that I have said to the public at the time." The education fiasco even went so far as that the Government had to bring in a bill to protect their minister from the decisions that he made while he was the minister.

In a democracy, I would suggest to you that there is something dreadfully wrong with a system when government has to bring legislation forward to save their own bacon on an issue that they probably misread and misrepresented to the people in the province of Manitoba. In recent times, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have listened to this Government. They presented to the people of Manitoba an opportunity where they were going to steal $30 million from MPI. The public got wind of that, the people were opposed to that, and, to their credit, what did this Government do?

They backed away and said, "We hear you loud and clear; we are not going to do that." But in this Budget they talk about amalgamating the MPI and Vehicle Licencing department. While originally part of that $30 million that they were trying to take out of Autopac, $10 million, was scheduled to upgrade DVL in their computers and in their programs, I suspect that is now going to happen. I suspect that it is going to happen at the expense of Autopac, MPI. I suspect that that will be reflected in the rates that we are going to pay over the next few years.

You cannot increase the cost of services by $10 million to an organization whose only revenue and only source of income is the people that are using it. So I suspect that we are going to see user fees go up for our Autopac, for our insurance, to cover off a plan that the Government tried to backdoor us at one time by taking the money out of Autopac. Now, by amalgamating them they are going to force them to pay. I found it quite interesting that the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) talked about tolls on roads.

Well, I would suggest to you that a $23 surcharge on my licence and on every Manitoban's licence in the province of Manitoba is a surcharge. The difference is, and I think there is the real difference, this Government again is telling people that that money is going to go into fixing roads, upgrading roads, making roads safer. We know for a fact that that money will never go there. That money is going to go into MPI; it is going to pay for the upgrade for those computers that they could not take out of it before, to the DVL, and we are going to see increased costs. I suspect again, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that we are going to see rates continue to go up with MPI as well as our education fees, simply because they have built in higher expenses. It is a service that only is provided on a user-pay basis. So I am predicting, and I hope I am wrong, I think the people of Manitoba hope we are wrong and you know this $23 just is not the first time that this Government has done this. It was $10 three years ago, it was $10 last year, now it is $23.

I mean they talk about protecting and being aware and being concerned about the under- privileged, the disadvantaged, and yet everything we have seen in this Budget is a direct hit on that particular group of people in our society. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we all know that hydro rates are going up. We know that, the Minister of Hydro has announced it. We are talking 25 percent, I believe, over the next 10 years.

We are talking about a substantial hit in the next two years, but they even couch their comments and, again, I go back to pattern that has been developed by this Government of saying one thing and doing another. They announced that hydro rates were going to go up and they had an average, I believe it was 5 percent, 3 percent over on e year and 2 percent over the next. What they did not tell people was that was the average. What they did not tell people was that homeowners were going to see a 7% to a 7.5% increase.

Because they averaged it out, it was a lesser number and again misled people, misled the consumers in Manitoba. But this Government was being very cautious with their money and very careful with their money, but, oh, by the way it is not 5 percent like we said in our news releases; it is closer to 7 percent and a little bit above in certain areas. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what do we see here? This pattern developing, doing one thing, saying one thing, doing another. I will give you another example: Workers Compensation rates. Workers Compensation rate is funded solely by employers. It

1168 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 is to provide a benefit to the employees that work within their system for in surance and health care benefits should they be injured. What are we seeing now? Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are seeing a government that is manipulating the Workers Compensation Board spending the money like it is theirs, instead of the people that it actually belongs to.

They are out there negotiating first to purchase an MRI on behalf of Workers Compensa- tion that they would be expected to pay for and when the business community expressed their concerns, what did they do, they changed it. Now they are talking about a lease. So we are not really buying it, but do not worry. What have we seen in the last three years? We have seen Workers Compensation rates going up. They have gone up year af ter year after year. They always use this argument that yes, they are going up and yes, but we are still the lowest or second-lowest in Canada. Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to think that that is a congratulatory handshake to the pre- vious government who worked extremely hard to get those rates as low as they possibly could be and still sustain themselves. What we have seen this Govern- ment do is go into every department, every Crown corporation and find a way of increasing those fees, not for the benefit of the people that are accessing and using those services, but for themselves. It is more revenue for the Govern ment. It is more need for the Government. I guess the bottom line and the question is how do we get that need.

Why did we get to that point? Mr. Deputy Speaker, we talk again about a government that says one thing and does another. We have heard members in this House, we have heard members from the government side talk about the sale of MTS, and how the previous government took those funds and put it into a rainy day fund and used it to benefit all Manitobans, to help cover the costs of the flood of the century, the worst flood that we have seen in our history, in our lifetime. We saw it to cover costs of forest fires in the North.

They always make the comparison about we sold MTS, but the current government, no, they did not sell Hydro; they just mortgaged it to a point where it is starting to run out of wiggle room and be able to do the things that Hydro was meant to do, what they were mandated to do. So I ask the Government across, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what is the difference when you have put a company like Manitoba Hydro into a position where it can no longer make the decisions that it has to because of the Government siphoning $200-plus mil- lion out of it. They did not ask the taxpayers about that.

They did not run on the issue that they were going to steal $200-plus million from Hydro. They did that. Again, they had to change legislation. They had to rewrite legislation that allowed them to do that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, when the legislation was first written on Manitoba Hydro, it was clearly to benefit the people of Manitoba. It was not to benefit a government that needed an extra $200-plus million of revenue to balance their budgets.

The members opposite will say, "Well, what do you want us to cut, or what do you want us to give back, or if we did not take the money from there, you would not have this or you would not have that." * (15:20) Well, I suggest to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is exactly what this debate is about. It is about a budget. When you lay out a budget for the people of Manitoba, you are asking them, you are saying to them, you are promising to them that you will be accountable within that budget. We have not seen that.

In fact, I believe it is the Auditor General of the Province of Manitoba who has said for the last three, no, it is four years now with this one that this Government has failed to balance its budgets. Now, they will use the ruse that, well, it falls under balanced budget legislation and I agree that it does. But if we are truly being honest with people and straightforward, that is like saying that this is going to happen only because this out here, that is the way it was written to be. Why do they not just be honest with people and tell them the truth?

Tell them that they needed $200-plus million from Hydro to balance their books instead of saying, "Oh, no, it is under the balanced budget legislation." People become very, very untrusting of a government that uses phrases and uses legalese to escape responsibility. In reality, as the Auditor has said, this Government has overcome their deficits by falling– and, to use a never-used piece of legislation to balance their books, and then say to the people it was

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1169 because of the forest fires, the BSE crisis. If there was a crisis out there, these guys were out there looking for it. In reality, and it shows up, I believe, in the first quarter where they advanced $98 million and they said it was for the forest fires, for the BSE and, yet, when you look at the expenditures on the news release, about $75 million of that $94 million, $98 million went to health care. So, again, they are misleading the public as to what they are saying and what they are doing.

I th ink, over time, I really believe that people start to question government's motives and their abilities to do things in the right way. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we come to this year's Budget and what have we seen? We have seen this Government tax everything that moves, breathes or even suggests that it is a part of Manitoba. We have seen every municipality, town, city in Manitoba getting hit by three separate taxes, new taxes from this Government. They are getting taxed on the legal services that they now cont ract out. They are getting taxed on the accounting se rvices that they now provide.

They are getting taxed on the diesel fuel that they now use in their system. You know what, Mr. Deputy Speaker? What is ironic is they say that it is all fair and everything is good and everything is rosy. Do not worry. But, when they talk about caring and they talk about being the defender of the underprivileged and the needy, what have they done is they have put a 7% tax on every one of them, not once, but three times.

It just boggles a person's mind that the Government that stands for fairness and righteousness for all Manitobans would put such a tax on people and, I would suggest, at a time wh en probably they can ill afford it. To put the topping on it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, not only have these people had to endure these large tax increases, but they have had to increase again their health care premiums for Pharmacare. Again, I have sat here long enough and I have listened to this Government when they were in opposition rail against the Government about Pharmacare. You know, it is a tax on the sick; it is a tax on the poor.

What have we seen in the last three budgets? We have seen a 15% increase in the deductible. I suggest to you that Manitobans have seen a distinct pattern developing across the province of Manitoba. It is a government that says one thing, does another, and whatever room it happens to be in at the time, that is the message and the song that they will sing to the people that are in it. I want to just speak briefly about the Premier's comments. You know, there ar e a lot of things that we say in this business that we either regret or we wish we had said it differently.

I can think of a couple of things from the Premier's point of view. Obviously, he said, "We will not force amal- gamation; that is not the Manitoba way." I bet he would like to take that one back, because he really did not do that, he did just the opposite. I can remember in the debate over the down- town, and you know what? I find it amazing that this Government, because of their anger and disdain for MTS, almost reluctantly or not at all call it the MTS Centre. They talk about the True North Centre, they talk about the entertainment complex, but it is almost like it hurts them to say MTS Centre.

Here is a company that was a Crown corpora- tion, owned by the Province of Manitoba just a few years ago, and today they are building a beautiful downtown arena, and this Government has not even got the gonads to call it what it is, the MTS Sports Centre. They want to call it a recreation or a skating rink. I mean, this is a corporate citizen that they said would be out of Manitoba as quick as they could, it would be gone and would have nothing to say for itself. Well, what have we seen?

We have seen this become one of the top telecom communication businesses not only in Manitoba, not only in Canada, but in the world. They are out there in the world market. They have just taken on another purchase, another huge growth for the company. But this Government does not have the caring, they do not have the understanding that these are good corporate citizens of our community. I just ask them, in any of their comments, and I will go back and check it out, because I suspect there are very few references to the MTS Centre in any of their comments. I would just ask that they consider that.

They talk in great terms about their downtown Manitoba Hydro building, but they do not talk at all about the MTS building. I think this Government should probably consider that. Other things that the Premier was quoted as saying but really did not follow through on, and again more just to set the table to show you the

1170 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 pattern that has developed, I remember the debate over the funding of the MTS Centre, the beautiful complex that is going to be built, or is being built in downtown Winnipeg. They talked about gambling revenues, and the Premier, I have it on tape, so I have got to believe it, I have got to believe what he said, and I am sure he meant it at the time.

But he looked right into the camera and he said, "We are putting VLTs as part of the complex downtown, part of the MTS Centre, and the maximum revenue that they will take out of that is $1.5 million." The Premier is on record. He looks right into the camera and says it. The next day in the House I asked the Premier if that is what he meant. He would not even acknowl- edge that he said it.

Then later we find out that that was the minimum that they were going to pay, and if they did not raise that much money, the Government would back-fill up to that amount, again, a govern- ment, a Premier, a Cabinet that says one thing and does another. The list goes on. I mean, we have had promises in agriculture; we have had promises to our pro- ducers. Every year, includ ing this year, we see announcements of more money going into agri- culture. In the reality, we look at the bottom line and there is less money. The people in rural Manitoba are saying that our Minister of Agriculture has abandoned us.

The minister has come out and promised, through great fanfare and through great publicity, signed an agreement to be part of an Agricultural Policy Framework, and yet my constituents have seen none of the money flow from the Province of Manitoba. * (15:30) In fact, when questioned about it, this is ironic, this gets back to the phrase, "We balanced the Budget under balanced budget legislation." When the minister was questioned about it, finally we got to the third question and it was, "Oh, oh, you meant that.

Oh, okay, I did not know you meant that, I thought you meant this other agreement." It is something that we have been talking about for the last oh, probably 10 months, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and all of a sudden it is, "What about that?" The final phrase that th e Premier (Mr. Doer) has stated, he said, "I did not get elected to raise taxes." What has he done in this Budget? He has raised taxes on everybody that lives, breathes, eats and moves in this province of Manitoba. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in closing, I would like to have the Premier listen to one of his phrases that I think rings most true about himself, about the Premier of the province of Manitoba, about the Government that he represents and the people that sit on the other side. The Premier said, "Over the short run you can be intellectual ly dishonest because in a world of 10-second clips you can say one thing one day and you can say another thing another day.

You can do that for a while, and that is unfortunate, because over a period of time it catches up to you." With the budget speech that we are performing today, over the last four years I would say that phrase has caught up to the Premier of this province. Thank you. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it certainly gives me pleasure to have the opportunity to put my thoughts on the record on this balanced budget. We listen to the Opposition talking about us not meeting the balanced budget legislation, but, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it does meet it.

It is balanced between the important goals of investing in our citizens today, continuing our progress on afford- ability and public financing and building for the future. I want to pay tribute to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) for the work that he has done on this Budget. I happen to sit on Treasury Board and I know how much work it takes to prepare a budget. Along with other Treasury Board members, it is the minister and staff of Treasury Board that puts hours and hours of work in. I want to commend him for his commitment to this proces s and for putting forward such a solid plan.

It is a solid plan given the challenges that we have faced in this last year. Who would have thought that when we started 2003 that we would face the kind of challenges that we did? The challenge of BSE that hit our farming community not only affected the beef and dairy producers and other ruminant producers, there was a serious impact on all the communities, on the trucking industry, on the

April 26, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1171 auction marts. Many, many people were affected by this. I am pleased that we are moving forward, and I hope very soon that we will see live animals moving across the border and get back to a more normal situation that we had. The whole case of BSE made us look very closely at our plans, how we test animals, how we trace animals. We can be proud of Canada's record on this, but there is no doubt that there is more that we have to do and that is happening.

Along with BSE there was the drought, forest fires, a record number of fo rest fires, s econd highest year of forest fires in this province. The drought caused serious challenges for Hydro, given that the generation was way down. As well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the level of the Canadian dollar impacted us because we are an exporting country and our biggest exports are to the United States. This rise in the dollar has affected that. One of the areas it really affected was with the hog industry. I am pleased to see those prices turning around a bit and the hog producers not facing the challenges. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, Manitoba has risen to meet these challenges as individuals and as com- munities. Individuals have put together long-term plans. They have found ways to get through this difficult situation, just as we have with this Budget. This Budget maintains investments in education, health, and in Manitoba families. As you look at the Budget, you can see that about half the government departments have been directed to reduce spending and to hold the line, in order to focus on investments and support future growth opportunities.

One of the most important areas for our Govern- ment is in education, primary education, and this Budget has maintained our commitment to fund schools at the rate of the growth of the economy and to keep post-secondary edu cation affordable for the students who qualify. These are the policies that have expanded colleges' and universities' enrolment over the past five years and, really, are paving the way for future economy growth. This Budget maintains our commitment to affordability.

We set out a sustain- able program for tax reductions for individuals in Manitoba and for businesses and we have delivered that reduction despite the challenges we have faced. I would invite the members opposite, when they are talking about the taxes, to compare what other provinces have been forced to roll back. How they have had to roll back their promises on tax reduction and have also, in many cases, made serious reduc- tions in vital services. But, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am very pleased with what we have been able to do, once again despite the challenges we were able to allocate $96 million to pay down our debt and pension liabilities. I guess it is worthwhile remembering that it was this Government that started the proper accounting for public pension liabilities as part of our total debt picture. It is this Government that took measures to address those challenges. Of course, taking those steps has had immediate rewards for taking this long- term approach.

By taking the step to pay down the debt and the pensions we have managed to reduce our debt costs significantly since we came into office. This year's savings are $32.5 million over last year's and we have raised our credit rating. I am not sure why the members opposite would not con- gratulate us for improving that credit rating. They have been silent on that one. That is an important issue to be able to have the kind of credit rating that will allow you to control your costs on the financing. Again, I commend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). Since taking office, he has made tremen- dous steps there. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, infrastructure is important to people in the city of Winnipeg, in Brandon, Dauphin and all rural communities. On top of the five-year $600-million commitment announced three years ago, this Budget adds an additional $10 million for construction this year, and there will be an additional $10 million in the following year. This added funding will allow for a number of projects critical to highway safety and transportation needs to move forward and be accelerated.

There is the twinning of the No. 1 highway at Virden; there are the plans to improve and twin the Perimeter Highway and complete that piece of road that has been a very serious issue. I was very pleased to see a police officer in the paper commenting on how important it was that we move forward and fix this piece of the Perimeter Highway where there have been several deaths, Mr. Deputy Speaker. [interjection] You know, the member says that is 2009. Can you imagine? The member seems to

1172 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 26, 2004 imply, the Opposition said, "Oh, you are not going to fix that until 2009." Just like they could not read the Budget today on health care, they seem not to understand planning infrastructure. You cannot announce in a budget that you are going to improve a road and the next day put equip- ment out there. They shou ld understand, and I am sure they do, that there is a process of engineering that has to take place.

Yes, that is the length of time that it takes to put the plan in place, but work will begin this year. * (15:40) The members opposite will see activity this year. That road will be completed by 2009. I think the members are feeling a little bit envious that it is we who moved forward, just like we moved forward on making a plan for the floodway and just like we moved forward on the plan for the Brandon Hospital that was announced, I believe, four times. Four times, was it not, they announced the Brandon Hospital? Every election they would announce it but never do anything.

I am also very pleased that we are moving forward with the Swan River Hospital. You know, the Swan River Hospital was torn down. The members opposite said that they were going to do something. We were shocked when we came into office and looked at the books. There was no Swan River Hospital in their 10-year plan. They did not put it in. I can remember that one meeting that I went to– [interjection] Members opposite said they did not know where Swan River was.

Well, they knew how to come out and make the announcement that they were going to tear down the hospital, and they made a few other promises at that time that were never delivered on, bu t they never put in the capital plan the money to build the Swan River Hospital. We put it in and we are building it. It is in construction as we speak. If you came to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1c7187c784e3d4ebb221418a3a0acf5962d38ddc

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