J Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session Number 8 ========--=•-------====--~-~ VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, February 20, 1973 SPEAKER, THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL

February 20, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 176 Pagel - MRW HON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, before the presenting of petitions, I am pleased to announce the appointment of a Newfoundlander, Mr. John T. Connorst who is presently residing in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, to the post of Director of Public Prosecutions for the Province of Newfoundland. Mr. Connors is forty-six years of age. He was born in St. John's and after completing one year of a pre­ medical course at Memorial, he lost his sight.

He later entered Dalhousie University and completed three years of arts before entering Dalhousie Law School~ He graduated with a Bachelor of Laws Degree from Dalhousie Law­ School in 1954 and in 1955 he graduated from Harvard University with a Master of Laws Degree. He was admitted to the bar in Nova Scotia in 1955 and practiced law in the City of Dartmouth until 1967, when he joined the staff of the Department of the Attorney General of Nova Scotia. He is at present a senior prosecuting officer in Nova Scotia. Whilst at universityi Mr.

Connors won a·number of s~holarships including the George V Scholarship in Newfoundland, the Nova Scotia Barristers' Award for leading his class at Dalhousie Law School and a Competitive Fellowship from Harvard School of Law. Mr. Connors will assume his duties as Director of Public Prosecutions for Newfoundland on July 1, 1973. Mr. Connors is a widower with five children, although totally blind this does not impair Mr. Connors' performance in court nor his ability to prepare for trial& Mr.

Speaker, I am indeed proud that this courageous Newfoundlander is returning to his native province to assume this most important position with my department. MR. II. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, if I may make a brief comment on the minister 1 s statement, I Yould like to congratulate him for obtaining Mr. Connors' services

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 176 Page 2 Mr. Rowe in this regard. I know how difficult it was, Sir, when I was acting minister, as did my predecessors and successors, of the difficulties which we had in trying to get a director of public prosecutions. It is not the type of job that every lawyer goes after and it is somewhat difficult, 545

February 20 1 1973 Tape No. 177 NM - l MR. wv. ROWE: very difficult on occasion to fill that position, Seccn<lly, Sir, 1 wnsld 1 ike tv compliment und congratulate the minister for offcd.np; Hr. Connors this ioh. He is a man, as I understand,as the minister has indicated, totally hlind. I agree completely with him that far from this being a deficiency of any kind in performing his duties, it may well be nn enhancement. I remember reading a hiogr.aphy uf a p,entlerr.an HhP vns totally hlind,,in the States.

He was a lawyer, a practidnv ,,nn­ room lawyer, and was conside·red by all and :.lmdry, I believe it was the State of New York, considered by all of his breathern at the Bar to be foremost among the practicioners before the court. Also I knew another gentleman who was a lawyer going for his B.C.L. at Oxford when I had the opportunity to be over there. He too wan totally blind. l!e, I believe. led that year his class in the B .c. L. dep,ree. that was in 1903 or 1964. A man who then went on to great things in the practice of law. I congratulate the minister for his choice and 1 w:tsh Mr.

Connors every success i.n his duties. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. H.w.c. GILLETT: Mr. Speaker, I have n petition here which is directed to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Now this petition~ Mr. Speaker, was presented to me last fall after the House was closed but it does have to do with the paving of the roads to Cobbs Arm and Rodgers Cove. The concern of the residents of Cobbs Arm and Rodgers Cove is a genuine concern and I know because l have travelled that road so many times and they are smothered with dust,as they say here.

I tried several times in vain last year to get this bit of paving done and the road is just about ready for it. However, Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, I would ask to have it placed on the table and referred to the department to which it belonp.,s. S46

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 177 NM - 2 MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to speak in support of the petition presented by the honourable member for Twillingate. l have heard,since I came to this House, numerous petitions being presented to the government askin~ for pavement of one kind or another for particular roads in the province and I would like to ask the honourable Minister of Transport and Communications if he can see fit to put in enough money in his budget this year to have this particular road paved from Cobbs Arm to Rodgers Cove~ Seeing that we had a windfall of money that will be coming into the province with regards to the federal budget that was brought down last night in the House in Ottawa, in the House of Commons, I cannot see any reason-why this particular job cannot be done~ Mr.

Speaker. HON. T. P. HICK£!, MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAillS AND ENVIRONMENT: Mr. Speaker, before you call Orders of the Day, I rise on a point of personal privilege arising out of yesterday's debate of the hill before the House respecting Lake Apartments. The Leader of the Opposition raised a question as to who would be appointed administrator, from that a debate ensued in which certain inferences were made. I did not mind that so much, Mr. Speaker, what was said in the House. Outside the llouse the Leader of the Opposition made a further statement to the news media in which he said that he knew

February 2n. 1973 Tape 176 whom I was going to appoint. I knew that he was aware of the person and that it was just something funny or something rather strange about it. Along with the talent that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition has such as arrogance, he must also be hlessed with the talent of extrasensory perception. Because I do not know up to this moment who is goin)! to he appointed, As a matter of fact, Hr.

Speaker, for the henefit of the members of the House.the reason why I could not name that party yesterday was that up to the time I walked into this honourahle House I did nnt know that my officials had been successful in contacting the party in question. I think it was responsihle of me not to accede to the reque.;:;t of the Leader of the Opposition because it would be rather awkward today for ne to announce that the party that T announced to be the administrator yesterday T would have to announce today that those people had not accepted.

So I do not know to this moment - I am at a lost to determine why the Leader of the !lpposition should imply corruption or something improper about everything that roes on, on the part of any member on this side of the House. Tt just borders on the ridiculous. HR~ ROBERTS: '3 r. Speaker, did the honourable gentleman raise a point of privilege or am I allowed to make a speech in reply to his diatrire? HR. HICFFY: ~. ROBERTS; The honourable pentleman heard the point of privilef?e. May I ask Your Honour what was his point? It seef\ed to involve me, but I do not know what I said or did that so offended ·im.

What is the point of privilege. Sir? MR. HICKEY: Nr. Bpeaker, if the honourable the Leader of the Opposition does not know what he said that is un<lerstandahle because that explains what he says sometimes. !-!R. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, I am quite aware of what I said, MR. HICKEY· If he would like to know what the point is - If he wants to withdraw what he said, yes. MR ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am quite aware of what I said. What is the point of privilege, Sir?

February 20, 1973 Tape 178 MR. SPF.AKER· Does the honourable Leader of the Opposition wish to comment'! PK" 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman stands and launches an attack on me. Well, that is his business. He says it is a point of personal privilege. All I am asking, Your Honour, if Your Honour would indicate to me what the point of privilege is. I know what I said about the honourable gentleman. I know what he said about me. If he wants to whine, I am not going to. But what is the point of privilege. Sir? MR HICKEY: It is quite clear.

The honourable gentleman is well aware of the fact, what my point is. He is only just playing games again. But I will put it in common language for him. He implied that my actions were improper in refusing to name the names. He said there was something strange about it. }ffi ROBERTS His actions were improper. MR HICKEY: They were not. It is the honourable gentleman's mind. MR ROBERTS: They were. Sir, and that is that. MR 11ICKEY: It is his mind. 'IR SPEAKER : Order, please. MR ROBERTS>· And I think the honourable gentleman acted improperly. MR SPEAKER: Order, please.

I feel that the matter in question is possihly more of a matter of opinion between the two honourable members rather than a point of privilege. I feel that we should continue with the business of the day. MR. NF-ARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Industrial Development, I would like the minister to indicate to the House if there is any change in the amount of severance pay the laid off employees of the steel plant will receive when their services are terminated? HON. C. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): Mr.

Speaker, it has been indicated to the employees that they will be entitled to twelve weeks severance pay>this is a commitment that the government have every 549

February 2n 1 1073 Tape 178 Pfc - 3 intention of ~eer,inr,. I thank the honourahlc minister for the answer, ~!r. Speaker, I would like to direct another question to the 'Unister of Industrial Development. Would the minister explain to the House 't.l'hy the name of the Electric Reduction Company of Canada has heen changed to Frco Industries Limited. And just what this change means to the phosphorus plant at Long Harbour? MR. SPE.A.KER: I thin}· this question could very we] 1 ½e p1oced on the Order Paper. If the minister is willing to answer, I will permit him to do so. MR. DOODY: No, 1 was not.

It is the first time in my life that I have ever found myself in the ,rnme position .as the honourable nernher for Bell Island. I really do not know. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, even though rny friend from White Bay South has returned and the Minister of Highways is hack from Corner Brook, yesterday I asked the Pre~ier - no he is not the Pinister of Transportation and Communications, he hopes to be if the House passes the legislation.

I asked the honourable gentler.an and since he was not here the Premier took it as notice and undertook to follow H up, a question about Hampden. ~-:ow T think the information that I had yesterday was not correct, rhe main road to Hampden in White nay South is open, so it is a very narrow cut but it is open. Meanwhile as of this morning the machinery i1as still broken down, the Department of Highway's machinery. The people livinp on the side roads of that community have heen in touch uith my colleague, have been in touch with me as well and they have no oil and the situation is serious.

Can the minister tell me what has resulted from the query which the Premier had yesterday? DR. FARRELL: "(MINISTER OF HIGHWAYS): Mr. Speaker~ could I ask the honourable Leader of the Opposition if he wants a complete and full report on this right now? 5511

February 20, 1973 Tape 178 PK - 4 MR. ROBERTS: If the honourable member wants to w2ke a full report,! would be happy. tf he wants to do it outside,1 will be equally happy, 551

February 20, 1973 Tape 179 Mr. Roberts: that would be equally good. DR. FARRELL: I would like to ~o back to Friday, February 16 1 At 11:00 P.}1., Thursday a grader would win~ and blade work between Hampden and T.C.H. winging snow. It came off shift 7:00 A.~ •• Friday, road in fair driving condition. A storm came up before noon. strong northeast winds with snow accumulation during the day up to ten inches. Now I would like to digress here for a moment.Anyone who has been on the West Coast for the last couple of days knows the conditions that JM - l are out in that area.

This machine returned to Hampden around 6:00 P.M. and in the meantime this machine was taken by another operator at Hampden and worked between Hampden road and Giles Valley. A Department of Highways dozer working between the Village of Hampden and the Beaches, broke down in the early afternoon. Mechanics went to the machine from Deer Lake, made necessary repairs and worked until 2:00 A.M. Saturday. Very poor driving conditions prevailed at that time. Grader plow left Hampden twelve, midni~ht, Friday and plowed to the T.C.H. returning to Hampden,7:00 A.M.

Very stormy, ten inches of new snow~ road drifting in behind plow. Dozer worked in the storm at Hampden beginning 5:00 A.M. Again now I digress slightly to say that people working on these machines and the conditions that have been prevailing on the West Coast for the last week or so, it has been unbelieveable and these machines, even the best of machines under the conditions that did prevail,it is amazing how the grader worked at all, developed mechanical trouble Saturday afternoon. Mechanics went to Hampden Saturday night and got their machine back in service.

Roads around Hampden getting blocked up with snow and plow could not keep the local roads open. At 7:00 P.M. grader left Hampden, worked to the T.C.H., returned to Hampden at 6:00 A.M., Sunday morning. storm raging. 552

February 20, 1973 Tape 179 JM - 2 Sunday, 7:00 A.M., machine left to go toward Giles Valley, impossible to get through under the turn to the intersection of the Giles Valley and Hampden roads. Operator was informed a car with a sick lady in it goinr, to Corner Brook Hospital was struck in the snow between that place and the T.C.H. He immediately went to the scene, plowed the road to the T.C.H. allowing the car to get through. He then returned to Hnmpden, storm still ragin~, visibility nil. Dozer workinA in Hamoden Villa1Ze Area hut not accomplishing anythin~.

Operator took grader plow at 6:00 P.M. on the same day to the T.C.H. returning to Hampden 7:00 A.M. Monday~ road in fair driving condition. Monday, grader plow ]cft Hampden for Sops Arn arounrl 9:00 A.M •• met machine working from Sops Ann at 1:00 P.M .• returned to ll.amp<len ;it 6:00 P.M. Dozer workinr: between Hampden and the Beaches broke down twelve. noon, at the Beaches where it is still under repairs. Road open between Hampden and the Beaches but very narrow. Hired dozer, for the hon. member, Mr.

Speaker, has heen sent to the Hampden Area from Bonne Bay this afternoon and it is nlso expected that the department's dozer at Hampden will be repaired this afternoon. Additional grader is being repaired and is being sent to the Hampoen Area sometime later this week. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for a very full report and I compliment his officinls for preparing it for him. When he mentioned this afternoon, is that Tuesday afternoon he means? DR. FARRELL: That is today. MR.ROBERTS: Today, Tuesday afternoon.

So as of this afternoon the dozer at the Beaches will hopefully either will be or has been repaired, there is this one comin~ in from the Bonne Bay Area and there is the other hired one being sent in, is that correct? DR. FARRELL: Correct. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I thank the hon. ~entleman for the information. Mr. Speaker. 553

February 20, 1973 Tape 179 JM - 3 MR. ROWE(W.N.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition and the minister for asking and answering the question in my absence yesterday. I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Finance, Mr. Sneaker. In view of~ I believe? the S24 million windfall which the government expects to receive from Ottawa during the coming fiscal year, could he indicate now whether it is government policv to reduce taxes, such reduction. Sir, can take place by order in council? Mr. Speaker, the $24.2 million we hope to receive next year, in the next financial year as a part of 554

February 20, 1973, Tape 180, Page 1 -- ab the increased tax equalization payments from the Government of Canada, which will go to seven provinces~ It is not a -windfall in the first place. It is recognition by the Government of Canada that municipal or school truces should be included in the tax equalization formula, calculating what provinces need additional assistance to meet their financial requirements, Nu.-nber (1), it is not a windfall. Secondly; Mr.

Speaker, as the honourable gentleman knows from the state in which he and his collear,ues left the province, there is no chance of any true reduction as a result of this windhlow, as the honourable calls it, but it does incre.ase the likelihood that there is little chance of a tax increase. I know, ttr. Spenker, how that will disappoint the honourable gentleman opposite, hut there you are. It is some help in the year coming up and we are glad to have it. It is not a windfall, Hr.

Speaker. we fought for it at Ottawa on several occasions in the last twelve r.ionths and we have mannged to persuade the Government of Canada to change the formula uhen honourable gentlemen opposite could not. l'R. W.N.RO]ff_: minister's ..• MR. ROBERTS: !'R. W.N.ROWE: A supplementary, }1r. Speaker, following the honourable Even he has not a straight face The minister cannot keep from laughing. He woke up in the morning and here it was. In view of the minister's statement, Sir, today and in view of his remarks yesterday about the bad"John 11 in Ottawa not providing enough money, I would sav that it is a windfall.

I would ask the minister if the report in today's "yellow .iournal" the "Evening Telegram 11 first column of the budget, "Budget political says Moores, Cros'hie, 11 whether this is a quote from him or whether it is a quote from the person writing it? 11 :Mr. Crosbie 11 (the honourable minister) said that he learned of the windfall this morning after reading the full text of Federal 'Minister John Turner's Budget Speech." Would he have a · 555

February 20, 1973, Tape 180, Page 2 -- aph comment on that, Mr. Speaker? 1'fR. CROSBIE: Comment on what? HR. W .N .RDWE :_ On whether, }fr. Speaker, that is a quote of his or whether it is the journalist himself writing it, or whether that is a correct report of what he said to the journalist, ''that he learned of the windfall this morning after reading a full text of the federal budget speech.,: :MR. CROSBl.f.:..:_ This is a cesspool of cynicism, I think .•• ~'R.. ROBERT$: The "yellor journal 1 ' again, 'HR. CROSBIE: I think the word 11 windfall" was a concoction of the reporter who cynically misquoted me. MR.

R.QBER_!S_: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary for the minister rising out of his statement that it is not possible for the government to reduce taxes in view of the alleged state in which the previous administration left the state of this province. Would he explain how they were able to reduce taxes before the ~larch 24th. election, a year ago, that much closer to the time when we handled the affairs of this province? MR. CROSBIF• ~r.

Spenker, the answer to that question is that we did not reduce taxes, we granted the children an exemption, childrens' clothing and made it exempt from the S.S.A. tax a matter that the other govermnent had callously refused to do for years and which the federal government did last night, showing how _iustified we were last spring. f!B_!-ROBERTS_·_ A supplementary, }fr. Speaker. t.Toulrl the honourahle gentleman indicate how removing a tax is not reducinp; a tax? Would he also inilicate how his philosophy equates with takinf! away the mothers' allowance of $3.5 million immediately after the election? MR.

SPEAKER: Order please! I think this is getting to he a debate on the question and I rule the supplementarv out of order. }IR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, why did you rule this out of order please, Sir? 556

February 20. 1973, Tape um. Page 3 -- aph FR. SPEAKER: He are tetting into a lonf debate on questions and answers. I think the questions should be put on the Order Paper. 1-J(~O,!_~J_?_:_ I accept your rulin11, but it is not a debate. The honourable gentleman is all set to answer the question. Surely he has nothing: to hide? ffR. SPEAKER:, Order Paper~ Are there any other ouestions? ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a bill ,:An .Act 'Further To Amend The Rer-istrat:ion Of Deeds Act." read a first time ordered read a second time on tor'lorrou. 55'7

February 20, 1973 Tape 181 TB-! On motion a bill,"An Act further to Amend the Assir,nment of Bnok Dehts Act", read a third time, ordered nn~sed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion n hill, 11An Act Further To Amend The Companies Act'·, read a third time. ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion a hill, ''An Act Tn ,',mend The Quieting Of Tit.les Act 1 ', read a third time, ordered nnssed nnd title he as on the Orrler Paper. On mot:f on ::; hill, 0

An Act To Amend The Justices Act.". rend a th:i rd time. ordered om;sed and tit.le be as on the Order Paper. iln motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Family Courts Act." read n third time, ordered rassed and title he as on the Order Parer. On motion n biJJ, "An Act To Amend The Protection Of Ani111n1s Act", read a third time, ordered passed and tttle be as on the Order Paper. On motion a hHl. ';An Act Further To Amend The EmPlovment (Notice Of Termination) Act, lq6q", read a third time, ordered nassed nnd title be as on the Order Paper. On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The St.

Clare 1 s Mercv Hospital (Incornorntion) Act, 1960", rend a third time, ordered passed and title be ns on the Order Paper. On motion that the House resolve itself into committee of the vhole to consider certain bill, ?-fr. Speaker left the rhair: A Hill, "An Act Resnecting an Administrator for Lake Apartments)' 1'1'F ROBERTl-_: Hr. Cha1.rman, I have an amendment t wish to move to Clause 3 hut before I do that - I sent a copy to the clerk and a copy to the House leader, on the other side of the House.

May I ask, with reference to sub-clause (3) of this section, wh.lch nov reads: "An action shall not be brought against the administrator apnninted pursuant to sub-section (1) for any act done by him in execution of his duties as administrator,unless the act were done maliciously and without reasonable and probable cause. 11 Now I sha.11 defer to any learned gentleman on 558

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 182 Page I - MRW Mr. Roberts. on this point because I do not pretend to know a great deal about this type of thing, But as I understand the way that reads, if the administrator acts negligently, he is still saved harmless from any action and if that is a correct

interpretation of the way the subsection reads, I submit that that is wrong. The administrator in mv view should not have any more protection from his own negligent acts than any other citizen should have. Perhaps the House Leader may have a word to say on that. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I think we would agree with that. It is to be borne in mind that this bill was - MR. ROBERTS: Hastily drafted. MR. MARSHALL: This bill was drafted to meet rather urgent circumstances and we would concur that there is no reason in this world why any person should be protected by this legislature from acts of his own negligence.

Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would move that sub-paragraph (3) of clause (3) of the bill be amended to insert the word 11negligently 11 between the words, "done and maliciously" appearing in the fourth line, so that it would now read, 11 an action shall not be brought against the administrator appointed pursuant to subsection (1) for any act done by him in the execution of his duty as administrator, unless the act was done negligently, :maliciously and without reasonable and probable cause." MR. ROBERTS: Should that not be, "or without. 11 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, 11 or without reasonable and probable cause." AN HON.

MEMBER: Negligently or maliciously. MR. MARSHALL: Negligently or maliciously, yes. l think 11or11 instead of 11 and 11 should be there. lam making up the amendment as I go on so we can put in negligently or maliciously and without reasonable and probable cause. The amendment proposed is to insert the words, "negligently or11 between the words, "done and maliciously" which I think, Mr. Chairman, might meet the point which is very validly taken. 559

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 182 Page 2 MR. R. WELLS: Yest Mr. Chairman, I would agree with the proposed amendment by the House Leader. Before we leave clause (3), I would like also to propose an amendment, Mr. Chairman, to be added to (3)(1) which ends nnw - MR. ROBERTS: Once he proposes the amendment - MR. WELLS: Intercede, I do not mind! MR. ROBERTS: We cannot have more than one amendment under discussion at the one time, I do not think. MR. WELLS: 1 was thinking that possibly we could refer to all the amendments to this particular - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I thought one had only one amendment at one time.

MR. CHAIPJWl: The motion is that subclause (3) of clause (3) be amended to include the words, "negligently or maliciously" in subclause (3) and the Chair would prefer to deal with subclause (3) before dealing with other amendments. MR. MARSHALL: There is another amendment, Mr. Chairman, of a minor nature before we come to the principal one that the hon. Leader of the Opposition has proposed additional amendments - it it just merely a typographical error.

In sub-paragraph (2) of clause (3), the fourth last line, the word 11have 11 appearing in the last word should be changed to 11has~ 11 It now reads, 11 of any person who has 9 has had or claims to have. MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, with respect to clause (3)(1), which now ends, "such tenants by other than the administrator in respect of any matter arising during the period of administration. 11 I move, Mr.

Chairman, that added to that be the following: 11an all actions now outstanding against any tenant of the premises for non-payment of rent or which may be brought for such purposes prior to the appointment of the administrator or stayed untile the 560

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 182 Page 3 ownership of the premises is so resolved. 11 The reason for that, Mr4 Chairman~ is that I understand actions have been brought against tenants of the apartment even as late as yesterday and in fact were being served this morning, seeking to recover rent from these tenants. The tenants are in the awkward position of not knowing to whom they ought to pay and the addition of these words to that clause would correct the situation4 The actions would he stayed and in due course when the ownership is resolved, they can pay to the appropriate person.

I would move the inclusion of these words. I have them written down. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I assume these actions are being brought in behalf of one of the alleged owners. I am sorry, l will repeat it again. Are these actions being brought in behalf of one of the people claiming to have ownership? MR. WELLS: They are indeed, yes. MR. ROBERTS: We will go along with it. We think it is entirely reasonable.

MlL CHAIRMAN: It is moved that the words, 11and all actions now outstanding against any tenant of the premises for non-payment of rent or which may be brought for such purposes prior to the appointment of the administrator are stayed until the ownership of the premises is so resolved, 11 be inserted after the word, 11 administration 11 in subclause (1) of clause (3) and that the period after the word 11administration 11 be removed. MR. WELLS: Mr~ Chairman, with regard to subclause (4) of clause (3), the question was raised yesterday by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition about the administrator and the question of who should pay any expenses and fees which may be incurred by the administrator~ I uould move, Mr. Chairman 561

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 183 NM - l MR. WELLS: the addition of a further sub-clause to be called, in this case 1 think it would have to be called sub-clause 5, which would be added to the present, With respect, Mr. Chairman, to the further sub-clause I move that there be added as sub-clause 5 the following wording, 11The administrator appointed pursuant to subsection {1) shall be paid a reasonable fee for his services as administrator and be reimbursed for all reasonable out-of-pocket expenses incurred as such which when taxed by a master of the Supreme Court may be paid or reimbursed from the monies held in trust pursuant to subsection 1 of

section 3 and retained by the administrator." The feeling with regard to that and the reason for the suggested amendment, Hr. Chairman, is that as this is a matter which has arisen because of a dispute over Lake Apartments and Lake Apartments Limited, that the costs which are incurred by reason of this ought not to be at public expense but ought to be borne by the company itself and this provides that they can be charged by the administrator appointed, but of course reviewable by a master of the Supreme Court to make sure that they are properly in order and I think that is a worthwhile additon. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I think the amendment, tny colleagues and 1 think the amendment is quite reasonable and only makes clear and certain the situation which the honourable gentleman said yesterday would have existed anyway. but it does make it clear and of course I think it is a very sensible thing. That is why I raised it originally* MR, HICKEY: Mr.

Chairman, in supporting the amendment I would like to mention that we are experiencing some difficulty in obtaining an administrator and I am sure that the House is clear as to what the fee should be, I wonder if my colleague would agree to the wording that 11 the standard fee be paid.u There is a standard fee - I believe it is something like ten to fifteen per cent of gross revenue or something of that nature. 562

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 183 NM - 2 MR~ WELLS: The reference to the taxing master means that in such case as a master of the Supreme Court can review the fees and set a proper fee. So there is no question that the fee could be improper. It will be set by a master of the Supreme Court. MR. WM. ROWE: 1 think the master when taxing the cost and fees would have reference to these things for residentiary values. There is no problem with that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIR..M.t\N: It is moved that there be added to clause 3,

section 5, the reading as follows: The administrator appointed pursuant to subsection I shall be paid a reasonable fee for his services as administrator and be reimbursed for all reasonable out-of-pocket expenses incurred as such, which when taxed by a master of the Supreme Court may be paid or reimbursed from the monies held in trust pursuant to subsection (1) of subsection (3) and retained hy the administrator. MR. BARRY: I wonder from the reading. Mr. Chairman, I am not sure if it says where the money is going to be paid, what fee is goinr. to be paid.

It clearly states that the fee is to be paid out of the monies held in trust, does it? MR. CHAIRMAN: Carried; MR .. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, if I might now move two other amendments which on the typed sheet of paper which I sent Your Honour are listed as {5) and (6) but because of the amendment we just accepted would be (6) and (7), I can deal with them either separately or together as Your Honour wishes, I think they are advanced in the same spirit as the amendments which we have adopted~ Each would be to clause 3, the first would be to add as subsection 6 the words, 11an administrator appointed pursuant: to subsection l shall be a person-, "(and of course a person can be either a corporate or a natural person) "a person who is experienced in the 563

February 20, 1973 Tape No, 183 Nl1 - 3 MR~ ROBERTS: business of property management and shall have had experience in man.aging properties such as those premises situate at 115 Forest Road in the City of St. John." Now if Your Honour wishes, shall I go on with the other one or would you wish to deal with them separately, Sir1 MR. CHAI~: In view of the fact that they are continuous in thought, I would think - MR. ROBERTS: Fine, thank you~ Sir.

Then there will be a new subsection (7) which would read~ nthe administrator appointed pursuant to subsection (1) shall be bonded in the amount.''(that possibly should be in an amount) "at least equal to the total of all monies which he may be reasonably foreseen as to receive in trust from the tenants of the aforementioned premises. 11 Mr. Speaker, to speak briefly in support of these, I think the intent of them is very straightforward and very obvious and I assume will be accepted. Indeed I do not see how it could be challenged, Sir.

We are taking a very unusual step in this whole bill to intervene in what is essentially a private dispute between two parties,which has been referred to the courts. We have all agreed chat that is the right thing to do :in the unusual circumstances. He are appointing an administrator and that is fine but I think the administrator should be, obviously ,somebody who it,: experienceG in thii;;. I make no suggestion. Indeed I have no suggetion in mind that anybody has ever contemplated appointing anybody other than a person experienced in the business of managing property.

Those are wide words so I do hope the amendment will win support from both sides of the CommitteP. HR. HICKEY: My obvious reaction to this has to be one of dismay. The Leader of the Opposition is now proposing an amendment. He is more

February 20 1 1973 Tape No. 183 NM - 4 MR. HICKEY: or less telling us whom we are going to appoint. He apparently has no confidence whatsoever in myself. Of course that does not bother me too muchj but neither does he have any confidence in this side of the House, it would seem. I would vigorously oppose this amendment. There is no need for it. We are not about to appoint some campaign w.anager as he might have been suggesting yesterday.

If he would wait just a little while, when we go about it in an orderly fashion, he will find out who the administrator is and he will also find out that we act and when we do act it is in a responsible way. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support these amendments. especially the one that the Leader of the Opposition introduced suggesting that a person, and I do not think he mean that as just a single individual it could be a corporation or a firm, to administer the affairs of that apartment complex who is experienced in that kind of property management.

Now, Sir, I did not hear the Leader of the Opposition tell the minister whom to appoint. The Leader of the Opposition and the members of the House I a.'n sure, the other members of the House I am sure, would like to take all the safeguards that they can in this piece of legislation which is really a precedent. The first time since I have been in the House in twelve years~ that I have seen that kind of legislation brought before the House. I think it is necessary. I agree with the honourable member for St. Johnts South but there is a rlangert Sir, the way the legislation was worded originally, it is wide open.

Some minister on the other side said, and it is not beyond this administration to do it, Mr. Chairman, not beyond the administration, we know the experience of the last thirteen or fourteen months, it could be a buddy of some minister, Sir, it could 565

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 183 NM - 5 MR. NEARY: be a party worker, it could be some hang-around, it could be some flunky worker for the Tory Party. Sir, it could be the firm of auditors, Sir. It could be the firm of auditors who audits the books of some minister on the other side. It could be, Mr. Chairman. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: It could be, Nr. Chairman, it could be and the honourable Leader of the the Opposition is bringing in an amendment that I am sure all sane and sensible honourable members of this House will approve of. I do, Sir. It is just a safeguard and I congratulate him for bringing it in and I hope that it is passed unanimously by the House. 566

Februarv 20, 1973 Tave 184 IB-1 MR. CHAIR'IA.'l: Sub-clause (6) and (7) as they had been nronosed .are separate and apart from one another to such an extent that they should be dealt with ind:i_vidually. I believe that

section (f,) i!ealiniz: with the type of person who is to be appointed, is quite a bit different from section (7). So, if we could den1 w:i th subsection (6) first as contrarv to what we had previously agreed. MR. W.W. MARSHALL: Mr. Chajrmun, the Leader of the Onposition's motion, the reason whv we oppose this nrov:ision of subsection (6). as indicnted by the hon~ ?-'in1ster nf Provi.ncla1 Affnirs and Fnvironrr('ntttle,reasons have been reallv exnressi?.tl hv the !inn. mcnher for Rell Tslnnd.

The situation 1-A tlrnt 1t is a hill which has heen hrought i.n to a.prioint nn administrator and to generallv administer the business of this block of apartments.

He have nut :in, w1th the mutual consent, the words:"negligentlv or maliciously or without reasonable or r,rohah]v cause ••• So that in 1 tse 1 f means that we are ;wing to have to he careful whom we appoint, to make sure that it is somebody who is well versed in the particular matter, in this type of matter, hut the nature of the amendment is such that it touches upon and really in effect rrnestinns to some degree the executive nrm of p:overnr.ient itself, in that it is stipulating and positively thnt it must he some one with experience. We will anpoint somehody who is verv, very competent.

We are tak1nR a very unusual steo in this matter. There has to he a certain amount of latitude and at the same time a ;:,reat deal of responsihilltv exercise,1 bv the government in th1.s anr0intment which ts the same type of responsibility that it evidences in all of its acts. The arr,uments that the honourable the member for Bell Island had out. tn the effect thnt we might apnoint a flunkcy and that we might appoint that type of person or have a party-heeler or somethinR like that, is specifically the reason whv we will adamantly oppone this particular amendment. 567

Fehruarv 211, 1073 Tape 181, IR-2 MR. E. ROBERTS; The honeved vonl!"! of the hon. gentleman vill not hide two or three facts. First of Al 1, he iust saiil and his logic as my collearrnc and friend ha,:; iust nut nut :Is somevhat flawed. "'Iv friend from Bell Island snid the r_overnment rnav he tempted to anpoi.nt a flunkv or something n.nd the verv reason, this ammendment v•ould prevent that is the renson the >;overnrr.ent t.-mul d then oprmse it. Hell T let those words st:md for what they nre worth. Let me comment ri~ht now on just twn noints the hon. ~entlemnn made.

First of a11, I am deen1v shocked to he~r fn•m him of nll the people in this Chamber. Si. r, tne argument advanced serinusl y- 1 nssume he wa:=:- serious - seriouslv advanced that somehow this House was infringinp unon the executi.ve arm of the governrnent. Sir. this Po use contr0ls the exP-cutive arm of the government nr should ,md I, v.·hen he sat 0 ,:er here. T hearil him he sc- elonuent ;ind T must .<;;tv in so manv wavs I ;,greed with hin nnd I have hPnrd him he so e lonuent since. Mr. Chai rrnan. ahout how this rnvernment <loes not want the usurn the rower of the ~Tmrne. T ~uess that is chanp:e<l now.

Te<l Pusse1 l gnve them n little flick the other dav 1n the vellow rag_, the scurri1nus iournaliRm. HTI cttATlWAN: I would like tn aslr the Lear!er of the Or,nosition to keep this as relevant as he cnn. l'tR ROBERTS: Pr. Chairman, I am, I am dealinp: with the argument advanced by the hon. House Lender. Your Honour ;,l lnwecl him to advance the anmment, as Your Honour should have. Your !1onour Fi.11 doubtless allow me to trv to rebut the argument, as Your Honour should. He said that it would infrin,?e upon the executive arm. Of course it would, Mr. Chairman.

That is whv it is nut forward, ()f course it would infringe upon the executive nnn. nut how thev have chanp,ed. A vear and a-half or two years ago, you ought to hear them talk - now he stares across at me (what is the nhrase1) heady-eved, n grim, intense stnre. a man 0f nrincinle, stares across at me. headv-everi. A vear ago, t~io vears n)Zo, he vas sn noble. Now he has fallen. Now this harmless ltttle amendment infrinr,es the executive arm of the government. Of course it does And so it should. 568

Febniary 20, 1973 Tripe 184 rn-J Hhat is wrong with it? I do not care if they atnH:iint n flunkv. Let them annoint Hr. ~hltbe.am. For 20,00fl bucks ,1 1•p,1r mavhe h~ can do something. Here, here. ROBERTS: Ht>rf', here. I will sav here, hen' nnd :if ve cf!n ever find out Phnt he is doinP. Ke will he doing we11 And Hnrvev f:ole down there, ).fR. PORERTS: ~Jn. no hp is the rhief electoral officer. Ve wi11 come to Mr. f:nlf", r:entlPm,:,ri. "'r.

Ch:i.innnn. ns T nm saving th:is amendment snid tn let them ririr,rdnt ;; flunt:v 11:,; lonf' .ns he is nunlif::ferl nnd thev havp thP nervP 1nd the r>11ll - Pnd i nm surnrised nt mv friend from St. John's ,;,;outh t-.:ho ,1nnarent1v l'tW'flnrts this, I re:11 Jv htirl f'XT'ected better frnm him. Jud~inp. frntt1 his vnnl,:; in this session nnd in the last sessinn. thP two sessions at vhich l:10 h;i.,.; h,--,0n vith us, J llnd CXPected hetter. ar.i not surnrised nhout thr 'lintstcr of Provinc:i.al Affairs. 1 knriw him for what he is nnd 1 nm not s11rprisetl hv him.

As a matter of fact I am not surnrisr><l hv rmvthim:~ th;-;t r:ent]em:m does. I haCT expected hetter from members onnnsite. This nmrnendment savs simnlv th;-it whoever is ar,nointed should he nu:,J i fif'd. Ouali fiPd in whnt" lluali fied and experienced in the h11AinP~s of pr<'nertv mnna?.ement nnd shall have hnd exPerience in mnnRdnp nronerties. I dn n;;t r:nrP, 1''r. Chnir:mrrn, if the person is the Tnrv caH:nn1rm ch;drman. Tlmt ir,; fine. Ponournhle r.entlemen camoaign for the Tory Partv and honournhle pentleme:n campaign for my party. ns lonp ai:; he ii:; experienced in managing nropertv.

Now remember, ttr. fhaixmrm, thnt this

section that we are now debating in conunittee calls upon the power of this House to intervene in a nrivate dispute before the courts. We :111 agreed yesterdav that we shoulrl not do it lightlv. Well all Jam suggesting in this arnmendment, Hr. Chairman, is that we put reasonable standards. I have made no 5E9

February 20, 1973 Tane 181; rn-4 statements about vho will or will not hi?: apnointed. What I have said, in prooosing thts amendment is thnt the nerson shn11 be experienced, shall have had some experience. Not unreasonah le! If the honourah1e p,entlemen wish to use tl-1rdr TT1aiority to vote it down. they mav. I cannot stori them. Thev will vote as they think best hut let them remember what thev nre doing. What thev are savinr is that thev will not accent th.;: constr;;int of this Chamber·. I am reallv surprised at the honourah1e gentleman from St. John's East, the Minister without Portfolio.

How manv times did we hear his statements about the executive arm being suhiect to thi.s House. ~r. Chairman, how the Fheel has turned and how the hvpocr-t.sy of the honourable gentleman has been exnosed for what it is. HON. LEO D. BARRY:(!-IINISTER OF ~INfS AND ENFR.CT): t'r. Chairman, I heard whnt the hon. member, the honourable the House Leader so'.!d. 1 nJso heard what the honourable the Leader of the Opposition said. I do not thin~ the honourable the Leader of the f'pnosition's remarks where warranted hv Yhat the honourable the House Leader earlier said.

There is a difference between the honourable House controlling the executive arm of government and this honourn.hle House so limiting, discretinn or removin1.; n11 <liscreti.on as to imply lack of confidence 1.n the executive arm of government ,and this i.s in effect what the honourable the Leader of the Oonosition 1 s ammendment is doing. It is purnortinr: to limit what I consider to be a reasonable discretion to be left with the honourable the Minister of Provincial Affairs or the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, whoever the act contemplates. Sir.

It is one thing to control the executive arms and another to imply a lack of confidence by removinP, all discretion. This government will have to take the responsibility for the person that it appoints as an administrator. If it anooints somebodv who is not capable, who is 570

February 20, 1973 Tape 184 IR-5 obviously not qualified,then th'ls government will have to take the consequences of this. It wtll he open for nll to see and this j!overnment will have to answer to the oeonle for doinp.. it. However, if I could get to another point. The honnurohle Leader of the Opposition has attempted to limit the discretion of the minister hv setting out certai.n 571

February 20, 1973, Tape 185, Page 1 - apb criteria which must be followed in the appointment of the administrator. Unfortunately 7 the criterion that is set out is not the criterion which is going to gain what the honourable Leader of the Opposition suggested it will gain~ As I understnad it, the intent of the amendment is to insure that the }luilding: is properly managed. The amendment refers to therefore having somehody experienced in the manar,ing of property. I submit, Nr.

Chairman, that there are many people experienced in the management of property who would he totally unqualified to administrate nnd to act as administrator here. What is the honourable the Leader of the Opposition saying? He said; non one criterion 1 .' We ap;reed that this criterion alone will not protect the tenants of Lake Apartments. We agreed that this discretion was going to be left in the minister, as to the qualifications,whether or not this amendment goes in as to the qualifications of the administrator. It is going to be up to the minister to find somebody who can administer the properties properly.

This, Fr. Chairman, I am prepared, this discretion I am prepared to grant as a member of this honourable House to the minister and I submit that all members of this honourable House should he prepared to do likewise. As a final point, I would just like to mention that this would be a limitation on the person who would be obtained as administrator which will make it more difficult,possibly, to find a proper administer.

I submit that a person could be found with absolutely no experience in managing properties, who by his ability in other areas could show himself to be a very good person to be chosen as administrator. I submit that there is no need for the limitation on the minister's discretion and I ask this House to reject the proposed amendment. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman has done 572

February 20, 1973, Tape 185, Pa~e 2 -- apb me the courtesy,(more than his House Leader did) of at least puttinp. up some argument on the werit or lack of merit of the aMendment. I shall attempt to deal with him. He says that in his opinion he is willing to trust the honourable gentleman whom we assume to be named. It ,iust says in the bill: PA minister to be na.rned hy the Governor-in Council," it might even be the honourable r:entlerr.an from Placentia West. Who knows, lightening rnay strike. But we assume it will be the gentleman from St.

John's E.'t:tern and he is noted for - shall we say mistakes of the heart~ if not more. That raises a question right there. I am not surprised at the honourable p,entleman from Placentia West being willing to trust the discretion to his colleague. I mean, I would be very surprised if he did not. They are in the same cabinet. If the honourable ~entleman did not feel the utmo~t discretion in his colleague, he would not ~rant him any discretion and he would leave the cabinet. That does not surprise me and indeed I submit the honourable gentleman does not expect anybody to ta~e that argument seriously.

He has to put that forward and so he does. His other point though, N"r. Chairman, has merit and I arn not going to attempt to deny it. This amendment would merely exclude one possible type of incompetence. It would leave many avenues for the honourable minister {he is to be the ~an responsible) to appoint incompetent people if he wish. If he were to appoint somebody who is not qualified this amendment will not prevent it. It will merely remove one type of incompetence. It will merely say that the man Foust have some experience in the business or property management.

A person could he widely experienced in property management and entirely unsuitable to be administrator. He could be experienced in slum landlords)which is not what one wants. He could be experienced in being dishonestJwhich is not what one wants. He could be in· any number of things experienced, but at

February 20, 1973, Tape 185, Page 3 -- apb least he is experienced~ The ar~ument has some merit. If the honourable gentleman wishes to improve the ,amendment and I would gladly consent, you know, leave to amend it, I think the amendment could do with further amendment. I do not presume to be a legislative draftsman. I do not presume to be even a legal draftsman, but I nut it forward quitP seriously because it will make sure 1if adopted. and I fear that it will die on the floor of the committee, Mr.

Chairman, but I put it forward quite seriously, not because I doubt the discretion of the honourable minister~ As I hnve already said in the committee, Mr. Chairman, I am not surprised at anything the minister does or does not do. Nothing the honourable gentleman from the Extern could do would surprise me in the least. Nothinr he could conceivably do would surprise me and I refer merely to the gentleman's public record, the evidence in support of that. The honourable gentlemnn from St. John's South should control the smile, he is supposed to be on the Barne side as the other honourable gentleman.

The amendment is not perfect, Sir. It may be very imperfect. but it is put forth in a helpful way, to try to improve this bill. It is put forward to try ,and if it can be ir.iproved upon then I would welcome it. There are many honourable gentlemen in this committee, !'fr. Chairman, who are infinitely more learned than I aM i.n the law and in almost anythinr else one cares to name. If they wish to put forward an amendment to the amendment or to improve the amendment, I shall gladly do my part. I maintain that the amendment, Hr.

Chainnan, the proposed clause (6) or subclause (6) would requ:i.re the minister,whoever he may be, to appoint somebody experienced in the business of nroperty rnanniement. I think that is a reasonable safegunrd. I am surprised the government as a whole have chosen to reject it as they apparently have. We have now had three ministers who have spoken and each of them Indicated he has voted against it. As this is a government measure,that be the 574

February 20, 1973, Tane 185, Page 4 -- apb government's stand. I arn surprised. I really had hoped it would be accepted, nonetheless, At least the honourable g:entlewan fron Placentia West, the :M'inister-Desir:nate of t~ines and Energy (if we ever get around to creating the department) has put up some serious arguments and I have attempted to deal with them. If he can put forward some positive suggestions, as they arc forever askinf; from us. let him put forward some positive porposals to imnrove this amendment and I for one would welcome them. AN HON. ME}fBER: Is it necessary? !>fR.

ROBf:BJ_S_~ Yes, t!E.· BARRY~ Is experience necessary? }tr,. ROBERTS: Yes. Nr. Chairman. I think it is. !:ffi. ¥_RRY_: no you not think that we could have a person oualified without experience? HR. ROBERTS: It is possihle ... (\N HON. !~t>fBE~:~ (Tnaud1hle) Well, if I may junt answer the question hecausc we are not limited :ln this. I do think experience is necessary. Jt would be possible to be good at something without heinr,; experienced, but certainly the odds arc that a person who is experienced, the odds in favour of his doing well at sometldnr. are very much prentcr.

I am sure the honourable gentleman would agree with the weight of that as a statement of argument. I think experience is necessary. I did not snv essential. T think it is necessary and I think Jt is emlnently desirable. MR. BARRY: Then the odds are that we will get somebody ••• MR. ROBERTS: No? Sir. not with that particular minister, the odds are not. ¥R. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, we are now to the point where we have a tempest in a teacup. The uhole idea of this was to anpoint an administrator and we are all agreed that it was a bit late. What the 575

February 20, 1973, Tape 185, Par,e 5 -- aph honourable Lender of the Opposition seems to me to be doinp now, is pullinp; a. red herring: into it, suggesting that the minister is not competent to make an appolntmcnt and that he has to have safeguards imposed :in the act and all this sort of thing. The Acts, the Statutes of Newfoundland are full of examples running into the hundreds of thousands of places where the minister is empowered to ma~e nn appointment.

If he makes a bad appointment, if it is a had~) a flunkie 1 all the words that the honourable Leader uses, let hifl'l then r:o into his act and let h:i@ say: ''Now, ~r. Speaker. we see who he has appointed, he is answernhle, so be it,,- the usual routine uhen there is a bnd nppointment or a had anythinr else in the honourable Leader I s view. Let him for heaven 1 s saYe, Hr. Chairman, let hir1 for heaven's snlre make the appointment! It is a standard thing that appears in hundreds of act. Let him rna1':e the appointment and as the honourable Leader would say, let hiw he answerable for it. MR. CROSBif:, 1-fr.

Chairman, there is not much to add after all that has been said. This is just simply a ouestion of whether you have confidence in the government or not. If you have no confidence in the ~overnment you suggest silly, pusillanimous amendments such as this one, "The man must be experienced in property management." Yes, he has looked after a few outhouses for a month, then we could say he has experience in property managenent. MR. NEARY: That ought to be the honourable minister. }fR. CROSBIE: And the honourable gentleman talks about flunkies. MR. NEARY: That is right.

There were many, many flunkies if you want to call them that appointed in the last twenty-three years and some of them to MR. CROSBIE: very high quasi-judicial posts, where there is no stipulation made as to what qualifications they should have. You can easily put in this qualification of property management. There could be a thousand people we could appoint. The point is, if you have confidence in the 575

February 20, 1~73, Tape 185, Page 6 -- apb govermr:ent, ?1r. Chairman, you will vote for the bill a,; it is. If you do not have confid0nce in the _r:overnr..ent, you will vote for this exercise in argument and debate. MR. RGBERT_S_:_ Hr. Chairman, the unfortunate part of the remarks of the Hinister of Finance is that they are completely heside the point. This bill does not permit the ROVernment to appoint anybody. If the government would undertake to amend clause 3-(1) to sav that the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council nay appoint it would be olray.

It is not the rovernment that is actinr, Sir~ When th:is bill becomes law, the minister, whomever the Governor-in-criuncil chooses to desip:nate, and he has a wide choice Your Honour, there are nineteen ... MR. HICKEY· The honourahle member is gettinp-. right down to :it now. HR. ROBERT~_: I have not even mentioned Bahl:> <'onstruction yet, but if the honourable gentleman wislH?S I will. HR. HICKEYt Will we talk about a fish nlant too? HR. ROBERT_?_:. Yes, if you want to talk about a fish plant I would 1->e delithted to tnl'v a1'011t a fish plant. Does the honournble gentleman want to talk about a fish plant?

If the Cirnirman will allow it, I am delir;htcd to talk about fish plants. FR. CHAUWAN: Honourable members should keep in mind that we are debating a bill, "An Act Respecting An Administrator 'For take Apartments," not the other Lake interests in the island. IIR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir, I tai:e it I 577

February 20, 1973 Tape 186 PK - 1 am not allowed to take up the honourable gentleman 1 s suggestion,we will talk about fish plants at this stage. Well thank you, Sir. Another time! I do not know if the honourable gentleman for St. John's East is going to be the minister whom the Governor-in-Council will designate. Fverybody seems to assume this. I would have thought well, I will not say that, what I tho-ught uould be offensive to the honourable gentleman, so I will not say it.

But if the }tinister of Finance or the government would undertake merely to make it the Governor-in-Council 1 I would be delighted~ If not - the only justification he has put forth for his opposition to the amendment is that there may have been mistakes in the past. 0f course there were mistakes in the past and there were mistakes made before 1949. There were mistakes made hy all the governments that have ever heen. Surely a mistake in the past is a reason to try and correct that mistake so that it will not occur in the future. So I still intend to vote for the amendment.

It has nothing to do with confidence in the government or not, If the government wish of confidence then that is their choice. to make this a matter I quite agree with what my friend for St. John 1 s South says about ministers acting and being responsible. That is the whole p,ist of it. The problem with the administration of which he is not part, to his credit, is that ministers tend to weasle out and the Premier tends to weasle out. MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, I did not intend to speak a second time on this amendment. But there were a number of points that came up during the debate. HR. CROSBIE: Inaudihle. MR.

NEARY: The Minister of Finance talks ahout outdoor toilets. Mr. Chairman, what does he know about outdoor toilets1 He was horn with heated toilet seats in his house. He knows all about heated toilet seats. This is obviously, Mr. Chairman, another attempt at political patronage. Mr. Chairman, in this bill we are giving wide ranging 578

February 20, 1973 Tape 186 PK - 2 authority to the minister. The minister in this case, Sir is the same minister who on a number of occasions when he was a minister of another department appointed six - 1-lR. CHAIRMAN: Would the honourable member keep in mind that there is no particular minister named in this bill. ~. NF.ARY: Mr. Chairman, all indications from the other side are that it is goinp. to he the Minister of Provincial Affairs. the meMher for St. John's East Extern because that is the minister who introduced the bill and traditionallv in this House, !•-lr.

Chairman. the minister who introduces a bill is the minister who is going to administer it. Sir, that is the same minister who made a number of political appointments - MR, llICKEY: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. Does the honourable gentleman for Bell Island want me to table the names of those people whom I have been accused of appointing politically. If he does I will table them. I have the floor, Mr. Chrtlrrrian. I will table the names. I will table a copy of the report to NAPE;where I was cleared of a black charge. MR. NEARY: Is the honourable gentleman on a point of order - ~IR.

HICKF.Y: I have the floor, Nr. Chainnan. I have not yielded the floor. Mr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Roth honourable members are out of order. The honourahle the member for Bell Island, his remarks tend somewhat to be provocative and will in all likelihood make the nember for ~t. John's East Extern rise in his place. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance was the one who brought up the matter of confidence and that crowd on the other side. I did not bring up the matter of confidence, Sir. I am trying to prove to the Minister of Finance that we have no confidence in that crowd over there.

That is why I am bringing forth this argument, Sir. because we heard on radio the other day,in an announcereent from NAPE,that six appointments made by the honourable minister - MR. W. MARSHAL!.: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The honourable member for Bell Island I would submit is being irrelevant. The matter being discussed is the business of the appointment of the administrator for the 579

February 10, 1973 Tape 186 PK - 3 Lake Avartrnents, the amendment of the honourable Leader of the Opposition and the whole matter of any government department is not a subject for debate in connection with addressing oneself to this a~endreent. MR. ROBI'.RTS: On a point of order, if I may, Mr~ Chairman. I suhmit that the honourable gentleman's point is not well taken. The debate on both sides which Your Honour has allowed has mentioned the question of the competence of appointments, indeEd the whole point of the amendment, Sir, is this question of competence. We do not know that the gentleman for St.

John's East Extern will be appointed to administer this. Maybe he will not be, especially after today's debate, Rut he is the minister who has introduced the bill, who sponsored the bill, who spoke in its support and surely the amendment goes right to the root of that and my colleague's remarks are germane and very much in order. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is heing irrelevant and that the proper procedure would be to move an aBendment to Clause (3) 1 which designates the minister and if the honourable member wishes to have any particular minister designated it would he in order for him to move an amendment to that particular clause. MR. !!EARY: I realize that, Mr. Chairman, but I just want to argue why I do not think that particular minister should be the one appointed by the government. MR. HICKEY: Because I am competent. Eat your heart outt MR, NEARY: Mr. Chairman - !:!!h_ ORAIRMAN: The same rule applies. rm.

ROBERTS: It is better than Tom's take out chicken. HR. HICKEY! Eat your heart out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is not to be pennitted to make an argument on sub-clause (6) the proposed sub-clause (6), then he has to make ~hP same argument on a possible amendment to sub-clause (1). He must make the argument in one or the other place. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, if the argument is relevant he may make it where he wishes. 5 8 0

February 20, 1973 Tape 186 MR. NE.A.RY: Thank you, Hr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Finance, Sir, bully boy. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. PK - 4 MR. NEARY: Mr* Chairman, if the honourable minister does not like it he can take his pill. We were told yesterday. Mr. Chairman, by the minister -who introduced this bill that a firm of chartered accountants was to be appointed as administrator. Not a thing wrong with it, if they are qualified, Tf they are experienced. MR. HICKEY: Maybe MR. NEARY: The honourable minister did not say 11maybe" he made a statement of fact, Mr.

Chairman, that a firm of chartered accountants. In my earlier argument, Sir. one of the points that I made and I am sure if that particular firm that the honourable minister referred to.that gentleman is a chartered accountant. I doubt it, Sir. I know who the honourable minister was going to appoint and so does the honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HICKEY: lfr. Chairman. I do not suffer from amnesia hut I did not mention any name yesterday. MR. NF.ARY: Is this a point of order; Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKEY: I do not recall mentioning any names. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. MR.

NFARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So we were not told whether this firm of chartered accountants were experienced in property manaRement or not,of if they were actually chartered accountants or where they just auditors. So in my earlier argumentsy Sir, I suggested that to give the minister wide-ranging powers like this, some minister on the other side, some member on the other side may be using this firm to audit their otrn accounts and their otrn business, I do not know. It could be. MR. HICKEY: On this side? 581

February 20, 1973 Tape 186 MR. NEARY: On that side. It could be~ 1'-ffi. HICKEY: Inaudible. PK - 5 MR. NEARY: So he could just throw some goodies to his auditor, a little bit of political patronage. Not say it is going to happen, Sir, but it could be. It could happen. So the Leader of the Opposition is trying to avoid this and he is bringing in a very reasonahle and sensible amendment. Where are the freedom fighters on the other side now, Sir?

When they were sitting over herr.,the Minister of Finance, why you could hardly move. you were afraid to move, Sir. 11e was likely to move down from anywhere under cover of darkness. You did not know where he was coming from. If you turned on your radio, if you turned on your television there he was. AN HON. MEMBER~ Super .John. tfR._!i_EARY_~ Now, Mr. Chairman, he is sitting over there. He regrets it. He will regret it. He will regret it before he is finished, Sir. HR. ROBfJTS· Super John and Tiny Tom - HR. NFAJ_1Y:- I did not finish the point that I was making about these, 582

February 20, 1973 Tape 187 AN HON. MEMBE!i_:_ What point was that? MR. ~R_!: These six employees who were overpaid. Sir. We have heard a public statement, and this should interest the Minister of Finance, the protector of the public treasury. the public chest, NAPE savs they were overµaid, substantially overoaid but we are not goinp: to recover the money. They are goin~ to be reclassified and downp,raded. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member should confine himself to matters under discussion. MR. NEARY: So the very same thing could happen~ Mr. Chairman. in this particular case of the Lakeside Apartments.

The hon. minister, the member for St. John's East Extern,if he is the one who is going to appoint the administrator could throw a few poodies somebody's way. Sir, we are trying to - MR. RICKE_!: If I need any help I will call on the hon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: Sir, he will not do it with my help because I will not vote for this bill if the amendment is not included in it. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman~ I would just like to add one word before we vote on this amendment. I had a job to contain myself listening to this, the rules of the House, Mr.

Chairman, prevent ne from describing it and I have had a couple of sojourns in my short career and I like the Chamber very much now so I will not say what was in my mind. Above anyone else in this hon. House to get up and talk about competency other than the hon. gentleman from Bell Island. He must be making hay while the going is good. It is sufficient for me to say that because that matter is before the court too. Mr.

Chairman, it is too bad, it is unfortunate in fact that the hon. gentlemen Yho sat in government or some of them, I should not really label all of them because I have not hPard anything of this kind of tripe out of at least one hon. gentleman on the other side but two, the Leader of the Opposition and the member for Bell Island 583 JH - 1

February '.W, 1971 Tape 187 with re~arcl to their talk about corruption ;::md this kind of garbaJ:,e, if you put the two of them in a bag, Mr. Chairman, it would he hard to sav which would come out the first. But this is what we have to listen to everytime, everyone as suspects. When anyone announces nnything on the ~overnment side,this is what you have to linten to, a charge of corruption, someone is P,oin~ to get fat, someone else is goinp to be appointed. MR.

Cf!~IJ~.?:-!~~-! 1 must remind the hon. member that we are discussine a proposerl amendment to the bill and if he would please cnnfine himself to these mntters. MR. HICKEY: Th:it is whnt I was about to do. Mr. Chairman 1 all I am .saying is that this whole debate today is unnecessary. It could have been done yestenl.nv hut for the arrogance nf the Leader of the Opnosition who was spurred on by the member for Bell Island. It is too bad that the Leader of the Opposition does not get someone else to advise him. Mr. Chairman, I am goinr- to vote against this amendment because it is completely - MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the hon. gentleman has found it hard to contain himself. I must say over on our side we have had considerable mirth watching him trying to contain himself. I must say he is a very containerized fellow. AN HON. MEHRER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry 7 did sonebody have some contribution? Did the hon. super-John have a word to say? A.'l HON. MEMBER: No, it was super-Al. MR. ROBERTS: Super-Al di<!. No, there is no super-Al, Mr. Chairman. JM - 2 There may be a super-John~ Well I am disappointed to hear the minister, Mr. Chairman.

He can say what he wants about me personally it does not really bother me, as a matter of fact I am quite flattered at the attention the hon. ~entleman pays to me. 584

February 20. 1973 Tape 187 JM - 3 But with respect to the amendment,! do think ;it is n reasonable and a sensible stipulation to put foniard. This is a nropertv management matter and the amendment does not require all the other things which could be required.,that the person be nineteen which is the age of majority in this province and that he be a citizen etc. etc. What it does require, it goes to the heart of the matter, it savs he be experienced in property management. All the minister is saying nnd his colleagues have to support him~ they are in the sane cahinet nnd the minister must have their support.

I mean he has to as that is the nature of the system 1 for which he should he grateful. AN HON. MEMBER: The hon. _gent]em,m can suffer too. MR. ROBERTS: I am not suffering, Hr. Chairman. Indeed I can tell the hon. gentleman if Your Honour would perMit. I used to envy the gentleman from St. John's Centre when he wns Leader of the Onposition. It is a great job. It really is. sure. One gets a minister's salary and one does not have the minister's headaches and one has all the fun of being in the House and all the responsibility an<l all the opportunities. It is a great job.

Everybody should have it for three or four years. Maybe the hon. ~entleman will have it one of these days. A.~ HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Well, we do not have our backbenchers going on television predicting leadership races. That is the hon. gentleman 1 s party. A.~ HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Oh, they are welcome to go on television, very handsome and photogenic fellows they are. But we will be havini a leadership race.If the hon. gentleman would like to contest it, he is welcome to. But, Mr.

Chairman, to come back to the amendment,! am surprised that the government are not ~oing to accept it. We put it forth in the spirit in which the bill itself came in to try to resolve 585

February 20, 1973 Tape 187 a most unfortunate situation which has occurred in St. John's and which the courts in due course will resolve but it may well take the courts, because of the verv nature of the matter it may take them a while to resolve it so the House has been asked to step into the breach. Well, we are willing to do our part - I wonder if the hon. gentleman from Harbour Grace and the hon. gentleman from Port de Grave would keep it down to a dull roar. Thank you.~entlemen. Thank you. thank you} .TM - 4 If they would like to speak in the debate, Mr. Chairman, I would welcome it.

Hold on now,the gentleman from Bur~eo errupts. Good, j!oodi I thank the hon. gentlemen, Mr. Chairman. It is easier really when one does not have the ince~snnt gabble at high volume, We put forth the amendment in the spirit of tryinp, to improve the hill somewhat. I am sorry that the government have chosen to reject it but that is it. They have chosen to reject it and there is no point cryinp: over snilled milk. We shall vote for it and they shall vote against it. I predict that thirty-two will outvote eif!ht and that is the wav it is.

However, I think the matter has been thoroughly debated and unless someone on the other side wishes to leap in a~ain, T do not pronose to sav anything more at this time. MR. CHAIRMA~: I move that Clause (3) be amended to insert sub-clause (6) ·---~-----·· which reads as follows: 11An administrator nppointed pursuant to subsection (1) shall be a person who is experienced in the business of nropertv management and shall have had experience in managing properties such as those premises situated at 115 Forest Road in the City of St. John's.n Is it your pleasure to adopt the said motion?

Tho$e in favour, "Aye,1 1 those against, '1Nay." I declare the motion lost. Is the committee ready for the motion on the proposed sub-clause (7)? MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not prnpose to anymore unless 586

February 20, 1973 Tape 187 JM - 5 some of the other hon. gentlemen opposite Yi.sh to debate it. Again I think it is a reasonable amendment and I put it forth in that spirit~ I hope it will be accepted. MR. MARSHALL: Just a few words, Mr. Chairman, on it. We have no objection to accepting reasonable amendments~ We have accepted probably more in the last year and we probably will more this year than had been accepted in the whole previous twenty-three years.

But what the nature of this amendment requires is that the administrator shall be bonded in an amount at least equal to the total of all monies which maybe reasonably foreseen to receive in trust from the tennants of the afore mentioned premises. Now as the members of the opposition have indicated,the measure taken by the government in this act is a rather unusual one whereby the government have had to come in and interfere with, not interfere but put itself into a private dispute for the purpose of 587

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 188 Page 1- MRW Mr~ Marshall. for the purpose of protecting the tenants down at Lakeview Apartments. At the same time government wish to do it with the minimum amount of expense because the expenses will ultimately have to fall upon the mmers of Lakeview Apartments.eventually. The provision with respect to this: We are going to appoint a reasonable administrator. We do not know at this particular stage as to the cost of bonding. The cost of bonding may be very high. The government itself will be taking steps to see that the administrator who is appointed is a reasonable administrator.

We have given protection in the bill itself today. Even today we have extended the protection to the property owners, the ultimate people, who will ultimately be adjudged to be the property owne~s,by protecting them against the negligent acts of the administrator himself and for this reason, we will vote against this amendment. At the present time we do not know the amount that is going to be involved in it. We think it is an unnecessary expense at this time to cast upon the individuals concerned.

Government fully intend to and will accept the responsibility of this action in this case as in other instances and we do not necessarily need our responsibility to be further fortified by a bond which is going to ultimately increase the cost of this particular exercise. MR, ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I am disappointed but not surprised by the attitude of the minister or of the government. There is no point of going over the ground again, again and again. They are obviously not going to listen to reason on this so why bother. I regret it. I think the amendment is a good one.

Again, perhaps the wording could be improved~ I make no pretense to being a draftsman, Sir, none at all. I submit on the evidence before Your Honour, I have reason not to make pretense that I am. a draftsman of statutory provision. The point about the cost of bonding is well taken. That could he met easily enough by putting a ceiling in, 588

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 188 Page 2 provided that the amount of the bond is not to exceed so and so. However, that is not the minister's argument. W'hat the minister is really saying - the reason I understand that they wish to vote against it, and they intend to vote against it, they just do not want any restraints at all on their discretion. Well I cannot change their minds on that point. I disagree with them.

I regret it very much because when this administration took office, I genuinely believed that they were willing to make the administration.the executive of the government, reasonably subordinate, reasonably subject to the House of Assembly. On the evidence we have here today, they have no such intention any more, if they ever had it at the beginning~ MR.

CHAIRMAN: It is moved that clause (3) be amended to insert (6) as follows: nThe administrator appointed pursuant to subsection (1) shall be bonded in an amount at least equal to the total of all monies which he may be reasonably foreseen to receive in trust from the tenants of the aforementioned premises." On motion clause (3) as amended, carried. Motion that the committee report having passed the bill with amendments, carried. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, before the committee rises, I have juat been informed by my officials who have been attempting to find someone to administer the affairs of the Lakeview Apartments, that the firm of Baird and Baird, Chartered Accountants, have agreed to administer the affairs of the Lakeview Apartments as long as necessary, while the case is before the courts. Mr. Chairman, in making this announcement, l make it with pleasure. Tue firm of Baird and Baird are well-known. MR.

CHAIRMAN: If the honourable minister would submit, it probably would be more in order for the honourable minister to make the statement while the Speaker is in the Chair rather than in committee~ It appears to be a ministerial statement. 589

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 188 Page 3 On motion that the committee report having passed bill no~ 44 with some amendments and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. On motion report received and adopted~ On motion amendments read a first and second time. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting An Administrator For Lake Apartments," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. ADDRESS IN REPLY TO THE SPEECH FROM THE THRONE MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Labrador South. MR. M.

MARTIN: Mr~ Speaker and members of this honourable House of Assembly, I rise at this time to bring greetings from the people of Labrador South to this Thirty-Sixth General Assembly. I wish first of all to express on behalf of myself and the people of Labrador South our thanks and appreciation for the many kind words of welcome extended to me by the other honourable members here. I wish in particular to thank the hon. the Premier for his words of assurance that my district will not be neglected by his government as it was by past administration.

We await with great anticipation the material manifestations of his stated sympathies toward our plight. I wish also to thank the people of Labrador South for the very great honour they have bestowed upon me in sending me to represent them in this honourable House. It is with a profound sense of the privilege of joining this Assembly that I accept that responsibility. I should like first of all to say a few words about my district, to acquaint the honourable members with a brief history and character of Labrador.

Our history thought not uneventful cannot perhaps claim such a prominent place in the annals of world events as that of Newfoundland. It may be that the singular most significant event was the establishment of a permanent settlement by our European forefathers over two centuries ago~ 5SO

February 20, 1972 Tape no. 188 Page 4 Mr. Martin. Prior to that time our Indian and Eskimo ancestors had already well­ established and sophisticated cultures wedded to the bounty of the land. The major difference between the Europeans who came to Labrador and those who came to Newfoundland is that ours, instead of murdering the indigenous peoples, married them and with them became a part of the land. It is a land whose awesomeness cannot be ignored.

Its character was articulated perhaps as well as it ever could be by that great Canadian geologist, Lieutenant Colonel William Wood who said, 11 Labrador is a wild land, ruthless, bare, strong, that seems to have risen overnight from chaos, dripping wet! Its formation is older~ far older than man. It is older than the original progenitors of all our fellow beings, millions of years ago. It is the only land left now on the face of the earth that actually stood by when life itself was born and for those, Mr.

Speaker, among this honourable Assembly who have been privileged to tread upon that land, Lieutenant Colonel Wood1 s words will have a meaning far beyond the mere rhetoric or scientific description. Labrador is a land which from earliest times has stamped its indelible imprint upon its children. It is a land not yet brutalized by contemporary civilization beyond the point where we cannot still here the spirits of our ancestors~ It is a land which has mixed within the blood lines of our founding races a profound sense of the frailties of human nature the intrinsic dignity of life.

Our recent history has within ita fibres all of the qualities of a first-class tragedy, yet we have never considered ours a tragic lot, accepting it rather as another episode in the larger scheme of things~ Some who know no different have put it down to poverty. There is no poverty in Labrador, Mr. Speaker. We may be lacking in many of the material amenities of life but there is no poverty of spirit. We were hunters, trappers and fishermen and many of us did 591

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 189 NM - l quite well. Some even becoming wealthy in a modest way through honest endeavours. In latter years we have moved along a slowly declining economic plane, helpless because we did not understrtnd the pressures acting upon us from the world outside and made more so because even if we did understand, we were lacking in the where\JithaJ to do anything positive to alter its course. The terrible destitution of the depression never really gripped us the way it did many less fortunate parts of the world although I would not dismiss the fact of its hardships.

He were relatively well off, tied as we were to the platitude of the land, and the land was kind. Yet we were likewise largely untouched by the prosperity of post-war years, Having slipped into an eddying backwater of Confederation, if anything we were in many respects far worse off as a result of our becoming Canadians, although again we are mindful of the fact that this great nation at least gave us the cash with which to sever the bonds of economic servitude under our paternalistic merchants. We, the trappers were ourselves trapped in a cage whose closin~ was totally incomprehensible and unheralded.

Science and synthetics foreclosed on our fur industry and those of us who depended on trapping for a livelihood began a slow descent into our own individual economic depressions, painfully conscious of our own helplessness. Our governments and our short-sighted and greedy mercantile houses allowed the fishing industry to die a horrible death and thus our only other source of livelihood was taken from us.

Slowly the truth dawned upon us that the despised goal, charity dressed up and called welfare, was to be our loto Men who might in the depths of despair have gone to the merchant house in the darkness hours to collect the dole order rather than openly admit his own disability, were being caught but no one cared whether the spirit shrank,

February 20, 1973 Tape No, 189 NM - 2 lapirlified and died, just as long as those responsible did not have to be confronted with its rotting carcass* So. with the blessings of Canadian citizenship we came to learn an entirely new kind of economic slavery called welfare. Our new government with its bottomless casque of Canadian largess was made up of men who knew the old merchant system and its value as a source of power so we became economic slaves to another breed who rather than put proud men back on their feet, bound them in new chains and taught them how to love them.

Confederation had broken us free of our dependence upon local merchants,who at least had faces and could be reckoned with, but instead we were thrown to the mercy of faceless, formless, disinterested politicians and bureaucrats and their heinous assistants. Ladrador was and is a colony within a colony. Prior to 1949 and Canada, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland even denied us a seat in the National Legislature. Since 1949 we have been subjected to a parade of carpetbaggers who at best held only a nodding acquaintanceship with our problem and often caused new ones by their very presence.

Labradorians have been forced to suffer the indignities of exploitation by a nation of exploited people. Totally dependent upon the paternalism of the merchant and clergy, never encourage to self-dependency on matters outside our own narrow community of interests.Lt was denied any involvement in the political process, we were dependent in the worse sense. This kind of dependency, Mr. Speaker, has a demoralizing effect upon any peoples. But in Labrador the spirit is not dead. There is still a vitality, a dynamism which will not be dampened by this kind of sutle persecution.

It is a measure of the vitality of Labradorians that I am here today in this honourable House. The dynamism is still there and the people of Labrador have attempted, through our movement, to take upon themselves .5 fl 3

February 20. 1973 Tape No. 189 NM - 3 their own responsibilities. This is why the traditional political parties have been so questioned in Labrador. You may remember, Mr. Speaker, that at first we were accused of being a separatist movement, a neat ploy to discredit us, and not an entirely unexpected one by <'the .. political parties. But I wish to reiterate here what I have said many times in other public forums that we are anything but separatist, though God knows we have every reason to he so.

Ask any person in my district what first impressions bring to mind when you mention the word Newfmmdlander and you will probably get something like this - Newfoundlanders are people who send us down second-rate goods to be dumped upon a captive market at intolerable prices. Newfoundlanders are the people who get all the good jobs in Labrador West while we have to stay home on welfare and unemployment insurance. Newfoundlanders are the people who come down the coast on a $6 ticket on a special CNR boat first thing in the spring and steal our best fishing berths, while the spring ice still traps us in the bay.

Newfoundlanders are the same people who tell us that to get out to our own fishing places, on the same boat, a fraction of the distance that carried the Newfotmdland fishermen, will cost us three and four times the special $6 ticket that Newfoundland get. Newfoundlanders are the ones who get the water systems and the fish plants and the air strips and then tell us that we cannot have these things because they are too expensive for us.

Newfoundlanders are the people who get their roads cleared of snow while our children have to stay home from school for weeks on end because other Newfoundlanders have decided that we have too much snow clearing equipment anyway. These are some of the first impressions that might spring to their minds. The wonder of it all, Mr. Speaker, is that there has not already been a serious and successful separatist movement, all of the ingredients are there to be sure.

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 189 NM - 4 But then again we really know that it is not quite that simple, because Newfoundlanders are also the people we have fished alongside of for years and we know that they have had it just as bad as we~ Newfoundlanders are also the people with whom we have shared the good seasons and the hardships and into whose families we have married for generations and we know that it is not Newfoundlanders who are responsible for our condition but the greedy and narrow-minded insensitive few at the top of the heap, who have control of all the power.

We have come to understand that our fellow Newfoundlanders have to suffer in their own way the indignities of a system over which they have no control - a control for which they hunger and as much desire as we do. The problems of my district, Mr. Speaker, the problems of Labrador differ from those of Newfoundland only in degree. We all suffer from the same inequalities and injustices perpetrated by the very same system. Labrador South, Mr~ Speaker, is but a microcosm of this whole nation. What happened there last August is merely a manifestation of the mood which is gripping this country.

The two other worthy candidates who ran with me in that election campaign, and those in their parties who helped them, should not feel so badly the pangs of defeat by one with such poor, very poor credentials. The fact is that the credentials of traditional politicians are no longer valid. The reasons they are not valid gives us real cause to hope4 Those in this honourable Assembly who would doubt my analysis should look beyond the boundaries of our province and witness the changing mood of this nation* We are listening, Mr. Speaker, to the first murmurs of national adolescents.

Like any adolescent, this country is restive and grasping for something more substantial than the tired soundings of political trumpeters. 595

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 189 NM - 5 I submit that this substance, Sir, which we seek is our own self-reliance, the assurances that this land, this nation does in fact have something going for it. We all saw the first awakenings of it when a man we had not heard of before,called Pierre Trudeau,took us by storm a few short years ago and we indulged in something of a national hysteria which knowledgeable people call charm, charisma and even worse. But I believe, Hr. Speaker, that chariswa had very little to do with it.

February 20, 1973 Tape 190 .!H - l Mr. Trudeau waved before us a vision of n new society, a just society which became a rallying cry and we, a nation of believers, fell in behind and for a while there he touched a real cord~ he really did, For a while all of the nerve endings were alive to this new sensitivity of this utopian concept that we were looking for, a thing called justice. Again. Mr.

Speaker. we awoke one October morning to the trav,edy of Pierre LaPorte and the horrible theatrics that followed and we began to learn with a terrible agony that is a part of growing up that we had been hoodwinked again, that our ,1ust society was no more than a magic lantern image conjured up by the wizardry of so~e Toronto madman. So along with the pain of the awakenings of our adolescent awareness we discovered that when we get too close to those whom we have placed on pedestals that inevitably we see their feet of clay sticking out through the holes in their socks.

We arc none of us infallihle"as the fathers of our democratic system discovered many years ago and it was because of that sad fact that they devised, perhaps after much persuasion, this forum for debate as one part of an intricate mechancism for the protection of iustice. One may play political r:ames, Mr. Speaker, only so long as one does not step outside the accepted rules. Justice and all that that means to us must not he toyed with. We in Labrador South may not have known much about the rules of politics but we did have a pretty fair grounding in the rules of fair play and justice. Labrador South, Mr.

Speaker, and hon. t:1embers underwent a crash course in political manoeuvring last year and as a result is probably'as much aware of how the political system works as any other segment of the general electorate in this country. That is why after questioning the validity of the other alternatives they chose to send this candidate to represent them in their House of Assembly. One could hardly say, Mr. Speaker, that the people of Labrador . 5 !l 7

February 20, 1973 Tape 190 South did not know what they were getting into. Many of the hon, gentlemen here in this Assemhlv today took us up on our invitation to come down to Labrador South and see for themse]ves what they have been saying all these years and whether or not it was true,and they did. After examining the situation thev did well and truly inform the people:. of all of the oossible consequences of sendinr; me here to represent them in their parliament. They had a ri r-ht :rnr! a responsibility to do that and we are grateful for their dedication to duty. That election in which I was returned.

Mr. $peaker. wa!".. you will recall. a by-election and the riuestion of which party should form the ):!overnment had lonp since heen settled, Furthermore it wns the third election :ln that district in a period of twelve months. The electorate cou]d hardly then have hecn calle<l an uneducated or n disinterested one. Had the people of Lahrador South wanted their representative to be in rovernment 1 they knew ex~ctly how they should vote, There was absolutely no doubt ahout that.

If on the other JM - 2 hand they simply wanted their member in the opnosition,thev were equally well informed as to the course open to them. Thctr action then in sending me here to represent them seems almost irrational until one comes to realize their reasons. What the people of Labrador South were really trying to say was that this hon. House no lonrer reflects their own best interests but it had become quite insensitive to their desires in that an entirely new approach had to be taken to the solutions of their problems. If this is the case then, Mr.

Speaker. and if Lahrador really is an indicator of a new political move,then the hon. members might well a~ree that it is indeed time to sit down to devise a new plan of approach. If we are going to deal effectively with the problems of our society it is essential that we have at least a rudimentary knowled~e

February 20, 1973 Tape 190 J!l - 3 and recognition of their root causes. We have problems of unemployment and underemployment and underdevelopment, of course. but the underlying cause of our inability to cope with these nroblerns is, I submit, Sir, because we lack a collective sense of self-reliance. Historically we have been molde<l to he subservient and responsive only to the wishes of those who have exploited us. Because of the nanner in which we have allowed our society to be shaped,we have never learned how to deal with the real Matters affectinr?: our society.

The power which we needed to denl effectively in significant decision-making was so concentrated that it was far beyond our reach. Even those of us who recognize that fact.or the answers to the matters in question,were incapable of influencing those who held the power. Our people in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, had been conditioned into paternalism and as a result had become quite impotent.

Consequently it has only been since Confederation fr~ed us from the economic bonds which bound us to the merchants and after higher e<lucation and improved communication have freed us from the bonds of superstition, ignorance and fear which bound us to the clergy and later to the government,,that we have begun to regain our sense of direction and self-esteem. To have been forced to develop a society under the strictures of this devastating paternalism and exploitation was demoralizing.

Not only did it minimize the imput which we could make into society and prevent us from developing our own talents for the benefit of the community but it placed a tremendous onus upon those who did wield power. Where power is so concentrated in the hands of a few.,it places the responsibility for a good goverrnnent even more firmlv unon them. One who would exercise paternalism and be effective for the common good must be of the highest moral order.Yet the history of politics in this country has not been a very high moral plane to say the least. Those who have 59:J

February 20, 1973 Tape 190 held power have been found to be sadly lacking in great visionary dedication. There is in fact a very squalid aspect to our political history, a fact to which the record books will all too blatantly attest,I am afraid. JM - 4 So one must understand this history, Mr. Speaker, then,even more 1 must genuinely feel the perversion of it in order to arrive at the root causes of our problems and thereby the solutions to these problems, It will do us little good to talk of restructuring the machinery of goverrnnent if there is not also a total restructuring of our society itself.

That can only be done if we have a clear and a definite understanding of who we are, where we are and where it is we are heading. Tf we are going to readjust and rectify the injustices of this society then we must put in balance the inbalancea which now exist within this society. If we are to do any more than merely increase marginally the material well-being of our people~we must drastically alter the criteria upon which our society is developing if not we will simply perpetuate those injustices and inbalances. We are, Mr. Speaker, and we must understand that we are first and foremost a fishing society.

Never mind the latter day trappings of the industrial revolution,our problems are rooted in the fisheries and the solutions to those problems must be sou~ht back there along the origins of our society. Ours, as I have said, is a fishing society but with a history of notorious paternalism. Paternalism has denied us the education we need to develop our own talents and the confidence to manage our own affairs. This dependence upon others has demoralized us and created an attitude of cynicism which we all recognize which in turn prevents the fertilization of communication.

This has been manifested in our shamefaced admittance of our heritage as a fishing society~ Clearly the development we must be thinking about is not 600

February 20, 1973 Tape 190 ,JM - 5 the piecemeal development of resources but an overall development and redevelopment of our society as a total entity. When we do talk about the development of resources,we must then think in terms of development for the common good, not just for the good of z1 selected few. Then. of course~ we must somehow define what the common f!OOd is to be. l would ask, Hr. Speaker. whether that defin:i.tion can be found by the few who hold the reins of power without reference to the public forum 6fl1

February 20, 1973 Tape 191 PK - 1 or will the development continue to be for the benefit of the few ~ho will hold on to power? Or whether they in their wisdom decide what is for the common good~ We sometimes suspect that perhaps we do not have that ability. These, Mr~ Speaker, are questions fundamental to the delivery of good government. The answers to these questions are much tao complexed to he uncovered by the labour of a mere few powerful people no matter how unselfish, dedicated or farsighted they may be.

We must therefore make it possible to derive some imput from those whose right it is to share in the benefits of development. The first step in this direction,! submit, Mr. Speaker, is the rehabilitation of our puhlic institutions to make them truly puhlic in the classic sense of that word. If we are to overcome the socially debilitating effects of the cynicism which prevades all levels of our society we must restore to our puhlic institutions the sensitivities which will allow them to respond fluently to the public's demands.

There has been and there are other affluent societies which have flourished and progressed while perserving the final aspects of their culture without being disparagingly apologetic about their herita~e and I refer of course to the Scandinavian cotmtries. I was most pleased to hear, Mr. Speaker, the references in the Thorne Speech to Scandinavian type of approach - Scandinavian planning I think it was called. But I really wonder if anyone among those honourable gentlemen here assembled knows exactly what Scandinavian planning is all about.

The time when this theme first came in vogue they had a nagging feeling that maybe they did not really understand it. I am now confirmed in that opinion. All evidence of the activities of government over the past year indicate that these honourable gentlemen who use the term so glibly know in fact very little about what Scandinavian planning is. It is either that, Mr. Speaker, or that somehow 602

February 20~ 1Q73 Tape 191 PK - 2 someone has dissuadeC them against that course of action. But of course the Scandinavian formula allows for none of the imblances which work so favourly for the few who manipulate power in this province. Among othtr thinp,s the Scandinavian approach to government would allow for a hroader power base than it appears that this government is prepared to encourage. It demands more sensitive public institutions for the benefit of the majority of the people, sometimes which is not possible under our present system.

The Scandinavian system relies for its source of strength upon agencies such as trade unions, co-operatives. price control boards. marketing agencies along with,of course_the legislative safeguards to protect their integrity. Such a system is quite obviously alien to our form of government. The real test of this government, Mr. Speaker, the real test will be how they do with these building blocks of a democratic social order. The previous administration did pay lip service to such concepts. They had a chance, Mr.

Speaker, to equalize the inadequacies of our society, But not one of these honourable gentlemen here while they sat on that other side of the House had the courage to grasp that opportunity. Now after a whole year in office,a major restructuring of the machinery of government, it looks very much as though the honourahle f!entlemen who occupy those same seats on the other side of the House are falling into that same comfortable rut. We all know, Pr. Speaker, how we have been subjected to the almost obscene scrutiny of experts and planners who would deal with the problems of our poor backward race.

It is 1 Sir, a reflection of the twisted values of those responsible for bringing this olague down upon us that they wert chosen not from a similar culture, not from a more progressive and more developed fishing society, but from that cultural aberration that is the Ottawa bureaucracy~ Nothing, Mr. Speaker, could be more alien to our cultural traditions than the ideals of someone schooled in the social 603

February 20, 1973 Tape 191 PK - 3 order of urban Ontario. Yet these are the very people who have been brought in to plan the destinies of a nation born of the fishery and the maritime trade, so incongruous as to be asinine. These urban school planners have no concept of our fishing society and cannot be expected to know~ Mover often than not they have through their efforts, sincere to be sure but misguided efforts, only wrought nore havoc than anything else. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, the only experts to ever come here with any sensitivity at all for our way of life have come to us from Scandinavian countries~ People such as Ottar Brox for instance~ a gentleman of some prominence in Norway. Who I presume was the source of reference for the Scandinavian planning. People such as Mr; Brox know the problems facing our society because they have had to grapple with simliar problems themselves. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that we could do far worse than to pattern our social and political institutions after those of Scandinavia.

Iceland, for instance. developed a very model of the parliamentary system on which ours is based. It is a shame, Sir, that we did not follow more closely their ideals, if we had then this honourable House today would enjoy far higher esteem than it does~ To me it is a great privilege and honour to sit in this House. But I have no illusions as to why I run here. The people of Labrador South. Mr. Speaker, who have sent me here to represent thern,knew full well the possible consequences of that act and yet I sit here today in this prized seat~ Why?

The reason, Sir, is this: After being exposed to both extremes of the political experience,after being so totally ignored for so long and then to be so completely emersed, the people of Labrador South chose to symbolize their distaste and distrust of traditional political institutions by sending me to sit in this honourable House as a continual reminder of their mistrust of the other honourable gentlemen who occupy the seats of this Assembly. So now, Mr~ Speaker, I would like to ask those gentlemen if they can 604

February 20, 1973 Tape 191 PK - 4 understand why it is that a people with so much to gain and so very much to lose should have to go the extremes of sending someone like myself to their parliament. These gentlemen can tell me why they would have gone a long way toward bringing back to this honourable Assemble the dignity and respect which it is due and will perhaps be the first step in making it again reflect the aspirations and the needs of the people and become at last relevant in our society.

I am not sure whether I can articulate these reasons myself but I do know that I am proud of the role to which I have been assigned. I am privileged to accept it. I know too, Mr~ Speaker, that there are others in this honourable House who feel much the srune way as T do, perhaps for different reasons but who for all of that feel just as proud and privileged as I do to be here. I know that there are still others who may say that they are privileged hut they know how they got here and they know within their hearts and souls why it is that they are here.

Regardless of how and why, each will have to lnok within his own soul and discover what he is going to do about it, now that he is here. It sometimes seems, Mr. Speaker, that we lose sight of the real reasons for our being here. He sometimes forget that we are here to protect the best interests of the people who sent us here. The best interests of the people, not the best interests of government or politic.ans or political parties or bureaucracies. the best interests of people. All the rest are very well served in the corridors and the back rooms and in the offices of hnreaucrats.

Everything has its own time and its own place. But it is here, Sir, in this honourable House that matters effecting the lives of the people should be taken above the squalidness of partisan politics and selfish interests. This Thirty-Sixth General Assembly has I believe among other things a unique opportunity to restore 6 0 5

Febnrnry 20, 1973 Tn.ne 192 IB-1 tn our parliament the dignitv and intep,rity of which lt was so shamefully strippe<l for it -ts our parliament after all,when everything else is said and done. that is:1ves our neople the voice tn the governing of their own destinv. This honourable Bouse of Asser.i.hly is more than anything else a svmhol of their tntegrity and their fa.1th in themselves. The people who sent us here. Pr. Sneaker, know that whatever has happened before, when a matter finally enters the nrecincts of this House it is to receive verv special consideration.

It is here, the neople know that through the mandate elected it is here that their best interests are to be protected. Reg;ndless nf whatever has rnne before. regardless of motive, regardless of how it got here, regardless of how it wns de­ signed or by whom or who ;f s going to benefit from it in the corridors, that once that particular matter reaches this !louse then it becomes our job, the joh of the honourahle members of this House of Assemhly to put it through the cleansing process. It is our duty, Mr.

Speaker, to see to it that 1 t does not get hack outside where it is iwing to effect the lifes of people,unti.1 it is clean, until it is in fact in their berst interests. The state of our social institutions is no more than a reflection of the qunlitv of leadershin developed and delivered by those who guide these institutions. This honourable House of Assembly, Mr. Sneaker, has been brutalized and vulgarized far beyond the hounds of decency. Th1s honourable Bouse has been in the past subjected to the most terrible, the most horrible abuse by those who sought tn further their mm asr,irations to oower and glory.

If we are to talk about givinp hack our people thei..r self-respect and their honour and their dignity, then there is no better place to start than right here, the very symbol of these ideals. It is a measure of the contempt which political leaders can have for the native intelligence of the people who elected them, that 60G

Fehrunry 2fi, 197 3 Tape 192 IB-2 thcv display such a contemptuous disregard for those ideals~ no we really believe, Si.r, that ordinarv peord.e co11ective1v. the neonle that sent us here cannot understand that nower of corruptness? Are we going to cnntlnnc to r-0 so naive1v nhout our business believtng that the rieonle r,rho sent us here reallv do not know nbout htimnn weaknesn. Thev undP.rstnnd. Yr. Srienker. het ter tban n.nv of us here dn. 1 am sure, that hurcoucracies con be corruflt. that 11nliticians cnn he cornmted. Thev knnF,far hetter than we ~o. nll about the frailties of human nature.

Those who have been n1aced in nositinm:; of 11over nnd trnst and then hec.ome corrupted ~o around trving to hide their corruption. trvi.nf;, to camouflare their nlam:; nnd rmlici.cs "1hen thev hecome twisted and misshapen. Yet the nenp1e vho nlncc that power and tn1;:;t ir• rlwi r hands knot-> far hetter than the rornmted vh?n thnsP r,lnns nnd nn1 iries fail because, Sir, it affects thei.r lives. Thev knou because thev are then made to get dmm on their helli.es ,md craFl t0 ret :;ction.

Thf!'\• know all to well tiecause thev hnve to get down into the sl i.IT'.P and thP gutter of corrunt politics in order to get what should h,1.ve heen thf'i rs hv natural proc~sses. fH, vt:.>s, C'.i r. Peon le know al 1 about cnrruDt no]iticians and how corn.int thPv can become or what can hnnnen through mismanagement nr mi~rlir0ction of their mm aff.iirs vhich i.s nerhans iust as bnd. YPt, vou know, in srdte of thnt knoP1e<lge thev i:xnect th,1t somevhere along the 1-ine 60RP.th:in£ in th{:' nrocess w:is hui1t in somehnw for their protection.

At some stnge there Js thev know a check point to nrotect their 1-est interests in the schemp of things. Tn soite nf it all_, thev expect that at least a T11eastirr> of it will g,et throueh to them and that is wiiv we are hen!. Tt is not the failure of the neople who sent us here if they do not reap the henefits nf thRir develooment of their own society. It is us~ ourselves dv,ht here in this Assembly, Sir, who get caught uo in S07

February 20, 1973 Tane 192 IB-3 the theatrics and the drama and the circus of the whole thing. When we disnlay our shortcomin~s and allow ourselves to blaspheme and besmirch the dignity and sanctity of their House it is disillusioning and offensive for them to look unon us and watch us break faith with the tr trust. What all of us in this honourable Assembly must he mindful of, Sir, is that we are merely servants of the public will.

Do we possess within ourselves the courage to see things, not as they are but as thev could be and then act for the cormnon good7 We are -in a unique position to be ahle to learn from the tragic mistakes of the nast and create for ourselves a society which will trulv fulfill the aspirations of all levels of, the social nr<ler. The question before us ts whether we have the wisdom and the courage to do so. Only our own humanity stands in our way. M'r, Speaker, gentlemen, history will no d0uht record that answer~ MR. SPEAKER: The honourable memher for St. John's North. ?-'fP,, J. A. r'Ai'tTER: Hr.

Speaker, I vould like first of all to congratulate the Denutv Sneaker on his election and I have every confidence that his will be a very illustrious term of office. At the same time I would like to congratulate the member for St. John's South for proposing this Address in Reply and the member for Grand Fnlls for seconding it.

Although he :ls not in the Charnber, I would like to congratulate or offer belated congratulations to the Minister for Environment on his hirthday~ I believe it wns because he was born on February 14th that his middle name is Valentine and although this year finds him a year older,I hope he is not dotm in the dt.nnps or should I say down in the dump. I would also like to quite seriously conµratulate the Leader of the Opposition on his forthcoming engagement.

These days we assume naturally because marriage is a commonvlace occurrence that it is yet an ethical step and I have every confidence thnt he will find this a fulfi.lling experience. In a lighter vein,I hone thnt it will assuap:e his pride and abate his malice. 6 0 8

February 20, 1973 Tane 1 qz lB-4 Hnwever, time will tell. I would like to congratu1 ate the member for Labrador 5outh on his, what I feel was a sneech indicatint grave concern not only for his district hut for the future of politics 1n Newfoundland. I feel that it was a rnensure of the shortcomings of both of our parties that we do not at present represent Labrndor South. It is unfortunate that the neonle of Labrador South do not ~ee fit, first of all tr, plnce their confidence in the Conservative Partv and secondlv, not to place their confidence in the other narties.

I feel it is n mistake to form svlinter parties. I myself firmlv heli.eve in thie two partv svstem. I think the multi-party svstem is an exercise in futility. And so, Mr. Sneaker, in ristn;; to debate the Address in Reply I do so ;is a supnorter of the government. AlthouJ?h I h;we been crit'icnl nf this party in the Past and wn 1 no douht he critical in the future, I consider the present n<lminfstr,1tion to he far ahead of the one that preceded it. I also have considerah.ie faith in our party to root out abuse where it hecomes evi.dent nnd to act as a watchdog over ~overnment generally.

Needless to sav, I do not have the same fai.th :in the other party. The role of the oppoi;ition 1 s that of devil's advocatP and there have hee.n some unkind enough to sup:gest t!rnt some of the memhers ormosite smell of a bit of sulphur. However, it is their rmrnose and their aim to sneer and trap, exoose and defeat nnd nerhnns replace the government where Possible. Bovever, I see the purpose and role of the government backbencher 60:J

February 20, 1973 Tape no~ 193 Page I - MRW as one of a constructive critic, constantly trying to influence the government to see the things the way he does and doing the best at the same time for his own district, always mindful of the general welfare of the whole province~ Although we are elected to represent our own district, this is merely an electoral device and it is more than a truism to say that we are here to represent collectively the Newfoundland people.~ I take the position that parliament is supreme in its own sphere and that the government is a creature of parliament and responsible to it and that that the first loyalty of those of us who serve in this House is to this House itselL Therefore, it follows that government are accountable to us here for its performance, past, present and future~ We are not an obstruction or barrier to government, a necessary evil to be be placated or jollied along and gotten over as quickly as possible~ Thia Howie should sit, in my view, for an extended period, say from October to December, from January through to April or May~ Looking around me, I do not doubt the ability of the present members to fill the ensuing pages of Hansard with lively reading.

Since this House is open to the public, both personally and through the press, it should also keep up with the times and admit television and radio. This is not to say that every sitting should be broadcast or televised but that the media should have the right, after giving reasonable notice, to set up their equipment and relay our deliberations to the wider public that they serve.

Now I well remember some years ago when the present Minister of Education was the Leader of the Opposition, that a procedural wrangle arose and it became necessary for the then Speaker to listen to the tapes of what had gone on several days previoua. The tapes presumably were catalogued and it was quite an easy matter for the Speaker to regurgitate previous sessions. The Leader of the Opposition at that time also requested 610

February 20, 1973 Tape no. 193 Page 2 the same -privilege~ Now at that time we did not have Hansard, although any individual member could get a type-written copy of what he said. The then Leader of the Opposition did not - the same right was not extended to him. He was not able to listen to the tapes. Now I think that this was arrogance pushed to its furthest limit. While I am not one of those who insisted that we have a daily printed record, if in fact the difficulties were insurmountable as they did seem to be then, it was the question of getting enough aecretarial staff.

All the same I think that even in those dark days those who were elected to the House should have had the right 1 after reasonable notice, to listen to the tapes or the transcriptions of what had gone on. By the same token, using the same point 1 I think it is only right that the television and radio should have the right, after reasonable notice, to set up in this House.

Now by checking with the House Leaders, they can know what the order of business is going to be~ The press can then use their mm good judgment as to whether it is good material or not~ For instance, we could be investigating the present member for Bell Island and this would probably make lively television or radio listening or we could be investigating the Leader of the Opposition or sentencing the Brothers Rowe for, you know, conspiring to obfuscate. It could be any number of things. We could be naming some honourable member~ I believe this House has the rtght to try and - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

CARTER: Possibly, possibly - if the press were interested in such a - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: I believe the honourable member is baiting mes Might l suggest that the honourable member is a master at baiting. This government are or ought to be very busy. While the House is sitting , the rest of us should be fairly active~ I feel that we could 611

February 20, 1973 Tape no~ 193 Page 3 achieve far more if we were all to make extended use of the committee system~ There should be a committee on every aspect and department uf government. Legislation dealing with a particular subject could go before the appropriate committee and be thoroughly reviewed. This is not to say that it would not be fully debated later in the House. I feel that in most cases, if the two House Leaders were to get together, the House would accept the committee's recommendation.

This is the way it is done in other parliaments or so I understand~ It would be a simple matter to amend the rules of this House to provide for such a procedure. It seems to be an unwritten rule of cabinet government that the report of a committee is just about the final word on any subject. Now I would like to sort of divide my remarks into a number of categories. I feel that the Speech from the Throne offers a very full and active year for the government but at the same time I would like to make a few remarks that go rather beyond the present Speech from the Throne.

As it is known, the Speech from the Tnrone is a general document that lays out in general terms what it is the government's intention to do. First of all I would like to make a very brief remark about economic development. Newfoundland has three renewable resources which not only can be exploited but also i