"JOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR Tfl..E PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, DECEMBE~ 3, 1980 NO. 71

"'t December 3, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.~. ~r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 2603 Dl'l - 1 Order, please! I am sure hon. members would like to join me in welcoming to the gallery today, Mr. Robert Butler and Councillor Cecil Keating. Mr. Butler is the Chairman of the Community Council of Baine Harbour in the district of Burin - Placentia West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hearl STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRE~IER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, yesterday in th{s hon. House the Leader of the OppositiOn (Mr.

Stirling) was quite insistent that I table a copy of a telex recently sent to me by t~e Federal Justice Minister, Mr. Chretien. His telex to me was in response to an inquiry I made of the Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago, a~ inquiry on the proposed indirect taxation amendment which is supposed to be added to the new Constitution Act. The hon. Leader of the Opposition will recall that at the time he and the hon. Mr.

Rompkey,New­ foundland's representative in the federal cabinet, held a joint news conference to announce the .indirect taxation amend­ ment that had been agreed tc by the federal Liberals and the New Democratic Party. As a result of that news conference, the citizens of this Province were left with the distinct impression that this new taxation power would somehow eliminate our $600 million annual loss to Hydro Quebec on the Upper Churchill. During that news conference 1 the hon.

Leader of the Opposition left no doubt that this was so as he stated,and I quote, 'Specifically,what this means i~ on the Upper Churchill we have the right to tax power going out of the Upper Churchill.' sg36

·'' December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2603 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: He further stated, 'If I were the Premier,I would be doing hand-stands at this good news.' Well, Mr. Speaker, being a reasonable and cautious man,I did not do hand-stands but rather I wired the Prime Minister on November 14th., 1980 and asked him for further details on the proposed amendment. My instincts and legal advisors both told me that there might be some problems with our successfully imposing such a tax in light of the ironc1a~ nature of the Upper Churchill contract.

The levying of addi~ional taxes could, in our opinion, effec­ tively deliver control of CFLCo to Hydro Quebec. This surely would not be an acceptable consequence from this Province's point of view. However, as I stated earlier,being a reason­ abie man, I waited patiently for a response to my inquiry from the federal government. During the waiting period my government introduced the new legislation on the Upper Churchill . I~ his reply to my introductory statement,the hon.

Leader of the Opposition \~ent out of his way to point out that this new legis­ lation was but an additional second tool at our disposal, the indirect taxation amendment being the first. Mr. Speaker, I am glad I did not resort to turning hand-stands at that time. Yesterday,the Federal Justice Minister did respond to my request for further details on the indirect taxation amendment. In his telex,Mr. Chretien did say the new amendment did apply to electricity , but >·Tent on to say 1 and I quote, 'whether this will enable New­ foundland to tax the Upper Churchill power in the manner you mentioned,I cannot say.

I do not know the details of the contract and other documentation relevant to the Upper Churchil contract.' Gq ::n

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2604 NH - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: I shall table herewith, Mr. Speaker, a copy of my telex and Mr. Chretien's reply. After two weeks of .. .,aiting, we find that the news conference jointly held by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) .md the hon. Mr. Rompkey was indeed much ado about nothinJ. Even the Federal Minister of Justice admits he does not know if the new taxation power will be of any use to us. Mr. Speaker, I do wish that the hon.

Leader of the Opposition and his federal colleague had gotten sound legal advice initially on this matter and then perhaps they might not have raised the hopes of our citizens unnecessarily. Holding public office carries with it tremendous responsibility and we might do well to look before we leap. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. STIRLING: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am certainly glad that the Ministerial Statement is not provocative or provoked debate because . the rules will not permit me to debate, just to make comments on half the time.

I think it is significant that, in keeping with his pattern,the Premier has not given me the courtesy of an advance~ copy of his Ministerial StatementJ he has not provided me with a copy of the report from Mr. Chretien, or the six foot telex that he mentioned yesterday. And once again, Mr. Speaker, we have the spectacle of the Premier of this Province standing up in glee to say that he rejects another federal piece of legislation, another federal help. Now let us cut away all the gobbly­ gook and the political manoeuverings that the Pr~~ier goes on with and let us look at the facts of the matter.

And the fact~ of the mat te.-:.i . Mr. Speaker, is that the federal govern!nent - the federal government that happens to be the government in power rig ·l1t now, the Federal Liberal Government -is prepared to sq~,q

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2604 NM - 2 ~1R. STIRLING : accept an amendment Hhich will give t.l-tis Province the right to indirect taxation over our non-rene;vable resources and will extend it to include hydro electricity. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Mrt . STIRLING : The Premier accuses me of a distortion . l·lell , I must admit that in all o= the premiers that we !lave ever i:lad ir. t.,is Province ,t!le one expert on distortion is t!le present Premier , the expe rt on twisting words , t•o~isting the federal words .

Now let us take a look at the =acts included in \vhat he has just had to say , that the federal government is prep ared to give us indirect taxation method , It includes the I.ower Churchill, t.l-te Upper C!lurchill, all of the resources that come out of Quebec -come out of Newfoundland, everything that comes - in the iron ore . ~lR . S. NEARY : Forestry . MR . STIRLING : Now let us just look at the facts of the ma~ter.

Behind that great PR facade what has actually been said is t.hat the Federal Justice M.inister has said quite properly to t..l-te Premier, "Look a.: your own legislation and decide whet!ler or not it appli.e~ ." What we are doing is bringing in enabling legislation . And, Mr. Speake::, the Premier kno\-ts I have done my homework on this 1 and he knows 6939

December 3,1980 Tape No.2605 AH-1 11R. STIRLING : that his legal advisors, the legal advisors told him that in examining this question -and he knows it to be the truth and that is what is so misleading about it- there were LWo-that this very exact consideration was looked into by his legal advisors and there were two problems ,and one problem is that you did not have the legal right to do it under the constitution,and that is step number one been taken away. And the second one was the question of whether or not it would bring about the problems that he mentioned. Now, ~1r.

Speaker, what the Premier should have done in all honesty was to say that in order to take advantage of this indirect taxation method,he would have to make the same changes, the same changes in the agreement in this House of Assembly.And because he distorted it, because any quotation that he made out of the agreement was~the agreement that came from this House of Assembly and we will have to take the same action if we were going that route to make changes in the rights that this Province, the agreement that this Province made in this House of Assembly was they would not tax and that is what he quoted.

And this House can do the same thing on that matter and that is change their minds as he is doing on his legislation. And I am saying their are two methods, Mr. Speaker, two methods that could be used. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : time lias just about expired . MR. STIRLING: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: Order, please! The hon. member's By leave? No. No, you are damn right, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! The by leave in this House only applies when they want something. 694[]

December 3,1980 SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SP~~~ER (Simms) : MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON .ME!1f:ERS : Tape No. 2605 AH-2 Sit down! Sit down! Order, please! Further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS The bon. member fer LaPoile. Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: By leave, t~e bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Can the Minister of Finance tell us whether or not this Province - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Finance in his Chair. MR. OTTENHEIMER: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order has been raised. I do not see the Minister of And he is not under it Hear, hear! >'lith respect to the point of order, I believe the bon. Leader of the Opposition can refer his question to whomever he wishes and i.f anybody-wishes to answer , fine. MR. STIRLING : The bon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), I ask the question to the Premier. Can the Premier tell us whether or not we have to raise any additional finances this year? Does he anticipate that we will have to go to the bond market this year? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PRE ~1IER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not have the total details before me right now,but I think we have not borrowed our full limits as outlined in the Budget this past Spring and therefore we are looking now at the bond market, 6941

Decernbe:!:" 3,1980 Tape No. 2605 AR-3 PREMIER PECKFOF~: We have been for about a month or so in New York and in Canada, and,secondly,we are in the process of fairly serious negotiations with the province of Alberta . r,ql.?

...... December 3, 1980 Tape 2606 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: As the Leader of the Opposition knows, last year in the previous budgetary year we did borrow from the Heritage Trust Fund the sum of somewhere between $110 million and $120 million. It is anticipated that we can get access to this fund again primarily because it saves the taxpayers of Newfoundland a lot of money, because the Gover~~ent of Alberta made a policy decision last year to allow the Province of Newfoundland and all provinces to be treated as Triple A credit rating.

In other words, we get the same interest rate on our borrowing as the best credit-worthy customer would get in the bond market. So we save somewhere in the order of $5 million to $10 million, I think, a year in borrowing that amount of money from Alberta. So we are looking at Alberta as one of our sources of funds to fulfil the needs of the Province for this year in a capital way and we are now looking at the Toronto and New York markets. And, of course, those markets will be tapped at a time which is most co~venient and which would give us the Jowest kind of interest rate that we can get. MR.

STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of t~e Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell us whether or not we have been advised by our financial advisers that because of the Upper Churchill legislation / that we should not approach the New York markets at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, if we hau ~aken the route that the Leader of the Opposition wante~ us to take, undoubtedly it would have been sugqested not to go to the market, but because we took the route we took, no, ~•e have net been advised not to go. SGME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 691.~

December 3, 1980 MR. MARSHALL: 1'-JR . STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. 1'-IR. STIRLING: Tape 2606 EC - 2 How irresponsible that is! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the w~ must be getting close to the truth, Mr. Speaker, when the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) has to protect the Premier- a sad day. Mr. Speaker, in fact ~re we not in a position right now where the only source of funds that this Province can approach is Alberta?

And, in fact, are we now being paid back for our - by giving a Triple A rating,is not Alberta the only source of funds for this Province? l'<IR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr . Speaker.

The implication in the Leader of the Opposition's question is quite a serious one and I have to take some time to go through this because there is the implication in the question that obviously the Province of Newfoundland, because of actions it has taken on the Upper Churchill, and I guess other actions, apparently, that we are not very credit worthy, and,therefcre, the international markets of the world do not look upon us in a very - what shall I say? - complete and favourable light. Now, Mr.

Speaker, number one, we can borrow tomorrow morning if we wanted to - and I know this from first-hand experience - from the European ~arket. The Swedish people, the Swiss people, the German people, the French people and the English people whom I met with a week and a half ago have told me that, no problem, we can, that the market is ready there. It is extremely bullish, as a matter of fact, as it relates to ~ewfoundland. There is a very positive attitude in the financial markets of 6ql..L

December 3, 1980 Tape 2606 EC - 3 PREMIER PI .:KFORD: Europe as it relates to Newfoundland and they would like very much now to be lending money to this Province, which is on the move. In the New York market, the same way 1 and the Canadian market the same way. There is GQL.t:;

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2607 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: no question that we can borrow in three or four different markets but,I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling),we would be extremely irresponsible if we did not get the best deal for the people and the taxpayers of this Province as we can. &~d when we can borrow $100 to $120 million or more from the Province of Alberta at a triple A credit rating and save the taxpayers of Newfoundland $5 to $10 million a year, we are going to borrow as much as we can from the best markets,But we can borrow from New York, we can borrow in the Canadian market and we can borrow in the European market. And it is just a matter then of picking the suitors as they come to the door and getting the best deal that we can. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer). As the minister knows, some two and one hal£ to three years ago, as a matter of fact on June lOth, 1977 the then Minister of Justice (Mr. Hickman) made a Mi~isterial Statement in this House announcing the appointment of the Mahoney Commission into the spending practices of the Department of Public Works and Services, That was ~azetted on June 24th, 1977.

Under the teimS of reference the Commissioner was required to report with as little delay as possible. Can the minister tell this House when he expects to receive the report, whether he expects a preliminary report and, really, what is the delay in the matter right now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, you know, the reasons for the delay andthat, I could not give, I suppose ;vir. Justice Mahoney would be the only one, you know,vmo any detail could give that. It is my understanding that the report of the Royal Co~~ission will be available within a GQ!.I=:

December 3, 1980 Tape NO. 2607 SD - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: two to three month period; that is my understanding. Obviously I cannot give an assurance because it is not my document,but that is my understanding. MR. L. THOMS: _1.1R. SPEAKER (Simms) : Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, : am wondering if the minister would tell the House how much this inquiry to date has cost the government of this Province and the people of this Province·: HR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The han. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I will certainly undertake to get that.

That i~ a specific mathe~atical figure and I do not carry it around in my head, perhaps I should,but I will certainly undertake to get it. MR. S. NEARY: $85,000. MR. THOJ:.1S : MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I was \vondering if the minister, when he is getting the actual figure to date, will also give this House what the projected cost of this inquiry will be to the government and the people? MR. s. NEARY: $150,000. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, Sir, yes. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte . MR. F. WHITE : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) related to this matter. rn view of the fact that this has gone on for nearly three years, careers of former ~~sters of the Crown are depending on this report coming out, a cloud hangs over many civil servants 6qL.7

7 December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2608 · EL - 1 MR. WHITE: because of the delay in this report coming out, can the Minister of Justice (G. Otten­ heimer) tell us if there is any way this House or the govern­ ment or any other way that we can get a firm date from Mr. Justice Mahoney with respect to the completion of this re­ port to put an end to this once and for all? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. OTTENHEIMER: The bon. the Minister of Justice.

I would think the only, I suppose, practical way of achieving that would be, you know, I can ask the Justice if he could give a date when he would expect to have it completed and to have it in the hands of the govern­ ment. I would certainly do that. My understanding, you know, as of the latest information is a two to three month period but, you know, I can certainly ask him if he can specify a day or a period within a week or two,but my understanding as of now is that within a two to three month period. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: ber for Lewisporte. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. mem- MR.

WHITE: Mr. Speaker, as I understand what the Minister of Justice is saying then that he will indeed ask Mr. Justice Mahoney to give a firm date or as close to a firm date as possible. Would the minister also tell the House whether or not there has been a request for additional funding from the Mahoney Inquiry within recent months, additional funding so we can continue to investigate this matter and complete his report? MR. SPEAKER: MR. OT'l'ENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, that could well be, you know, the kind of administrative kind of thing that I would not necessarily be aware of.

Obviously, any Royal so !d~

oecernber 3, 1980 '!'ape No. 2608 EL - 2 1>1R. OTTENHEIMER: Commission, whether it is this one or on the budworm or on the fisheries, you know, they are all financed and they have to send in financial state­ ments, receipts covering their expenses and, you know, if and when further money is required then they indicate the reason for it, then the money is provided. But it would not be the kind of thing which would, you know, necessarily come to my attention unless I specifically asked, you know, to see it,which I have not.

So, as I say, that would not be a matter which would specifically come to my attention whether there has been a request for additional funding within the past few months. But I can undertake to find out. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The bon. member for LaPoile. Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier, the Minister responsible for Intergovern­ mental Affairs,about the seal fishery.

There seems to be some bad news for the Newfoundland seal fishery coming out of Norway these days, so much so that the provincial govern­ ment and the federal government had to dispatch, in the case of the Province, the Deputy Minister of Fisheries to Norway to try to straighten this matter out and I believe there is an official of the Government of Canada also gone to Norway to try to save the seal fishery. Would the han. gentleman indicate to the House what the problems are, identify the problems and tell us if indeed Newfoundland is going to have a seal fishery this year or next year? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as far as I know, there is nothing to change our minds in government as to whether we are going to have a seal fishery or not: Of course, we sq;,.q

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2608 EL - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: are going to have a seal fishery unless something very unusual happens. There is a lot of federal sqc;n

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2609 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: authority in this area and obviously they have a lot to say about it,but as I understand it they are as committed as ':Te are to an ongoing seal fishery in our Province. I am not sure what the problem is with the Norweaians at the oresent moment. I do understand that there is a number of officials over there but I will get the details for the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) if he desires them as to what the ~Jonvegians are saying. But from our point of view, the seal fishery will go on.

It is a managed fishery right now and being managed very wisely, one of the best managed fisheries in the world as a matter of fact. I am also aware,of course, as perhaps many members of this House, that there is already a concerted effort underway through advertisements by a number of anti- seal fishery groups, including the International Fund For Animal Welfare, who have already begun major ad campaigns throughout Europe, and they are starting soon in the United States, so we can expect to see - apparently they are going to spend most of their money this coming year on the anti-seal campaign,these groups.

But I will get the specifics on the Norwegian concern for the hon. member. MR. NEARY: MR. SPE~~ER (Simms) : for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, I never cease to be amazed at the vague answers you get from ministers in connection with very important subjects in this House and in this Province. Here we have a situation where the government dispatched their Deputy Minister of Fisheries to Norway, they are threatening not to become involved in the seal fishery this year because of the adverse publicity that Norway has gotten from the anti-seal 6Q.S1

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2609 NM - 2 !viR. NEARY: campaign and so forth. Surely the hon. gentleman could instruct his Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to provide the House with the information. The Minister of Fisheries must know. PRE~IER PECKFORD: .tv'R. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: or is he making a statrnent? MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER : for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the Is the hon. member asking a question I am asking the hon. gentleman again - To the point of order, the hon. member No, no point of order, Mr. Speaker.

It is not a point of order anrNay, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order, the han. member has asked to ask a supplementary. Rerhaps it would be appropriate to put his question. MR. NEARY: Well, I am asking the hon. the Premier if this matter had been discussed by the government, if the Minister of Fisheries did inform the Premier that there was trouble brewing with the seal fishery, the Newfoundland seal fishery, and that he had to send his deputy minister to Norway to try to straighten it out and persuade the Norwegians to come back this year to the seal fishery.

Surely the hon. gentleman must have been informed of that. PREMIER PECKFORD: Is that asking a question? , . MR. NEARY: Was he informed? If not,would he ask his Minister of Fisheries to tell us? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we a~e on top of every single item, every single issue of any ccnsequence to this Province, so much so that we are very desirous of the Opposition, the member SQS?

December 3, 1980 Tape No . 2609 Nl>i - 3 PREMIER PECKFORO : for LaPoile (Mr . Neary), and all the other members to ask as many questions of this side of the House a s they can . We solicit their ongoing incisive questions and we hope that they will continue it in this way- SOME HON. MEMBERS: An~Ner the question . PREMIER PECKFOPn : -s,o that we can anst.,rer all the questions. Of cou:-se we are O·n top o£ every single issue in the Province. SOl-IE HO~. MEHBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for LaPoile. MR . NEARY: Hear, hear! A final supplementary , Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member The hon.

Premier is getting al.,rfully cocky, ~x . Speaker, and I remind him he can come down just as fast as he went up, just as qui ck. SOME HON . !-\EMBERS : Hear, hear ! HR. NEARY : He thinks he is riding hi gh now and he can ride roughshod over us. I eid not get an answer to that quesuon ! wil l have to put it on 68!13

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2610 DW - 1 ~!R. S. NEARY: the Late Show tomorrow. But in the meantime I would like to ask the hon. gentleman to tell us,in theeventthat the Norwegians do not come back this year for the seal fishery,what are the alternatives? Can the Province arrange for sealing ships to go to the seal fishery? Can we process the pelts in this Province? Do we have canneries set up whereby we can process the carcasses, the meat and so forth? Would the hon. gentleman tell us what the alternatives are in the event that the Norwegian~ do not come back?

And are they looking for any special concessions from the Newfound­ land Government or from the Canadian Government if they do come back? I mean,these are questions that the hon. gentleman - unless he is so wrapped up in Constitu­ tion and oil he cannot think of other matters - should be able to give this House the information asked for. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, ple3.se! I believe the hon. member has asked his question. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we have been trying for many, many years on many, many fronts to have greater consultation with the federal authorities on areas which affect this Province. One of them is the fishery. We solicit the support of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Ne~ry) for the Govern­ ment of Newfoundland to have more say in the fishery of this Province. If we did,then we think the management of these resources would help Newfoundland a lot better. MR. S. NEARY: That is completely irrelevant. It has nothing at all to do with it! It has nothing to do with it! PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, the direct answer to the member for LaPoile's question is: the more seals that are available for Canadian fishernen,the fiqSL

·-, December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2610 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : better it 'l'.'ill be fo:::- Newfound- land fishermen. And we will leave no stone unturned to see that if there is additional resource available to us,then we will make sure that Newfoundlanders get first crack at that additional resource. MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. T. LUSH: for the Minister of - MR. S . NEARY: - HR. T. LUSH : h9n. member, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I have a question A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Oh, sorry. I will yield to the The hon. member for LaPoile.

Let me ask the hon. the Premier, Mr. Speaker, to assure the people of this Province, if he can re-assure the people of this Province that t~ere will, indeed, be a seal fishery this year? J'!R. ~I.ZU<REN: MR. S. NEARY: the federal government. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: (Inaudible)t here will be no seal fisher y . No, it has nothing to do with It has nothing to do with the feds. The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, we do not have full control over that unfortunately.And I am extremely surprised that the member for LaPoile would persist in asking questions.

And,obviously, no wonder a lot of Newfoundlanders have problems separating federal ~rom provincial,when we have members in this hon. House who do not know the difference between the two. No wonder we have a problem, Mr. Speaker! The member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) does not know the difference between what is federal jurisdiction and what is provincial jurisdiction. Let me assure the hon. member for LaPoile - 1'1R. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) sq:;c;

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2610 Dl-7- 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: - if I can speak and be heard in silence in the same way as I respected the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) when he asked the question. MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: But now I am getting at a sere point. The hon. member for LaPoile has lost his initiative in the Question Period and now he does not want to hear the answer. He does not want to hear the answer. MR. s. NEARY: You are riding high(inaudible) ~m. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Every hon. member has the right to be heard iR silence and it has been requested· ask hon. members to adhere_to the rule. I would M"-. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) SOi·lE HON. ME~1P.ERS: Name him! Name him! MR. SPEAKER: Order please! May I repeat that the hon. the Premier has asked to be heard in silence and every member has that risht. PREMIER PECKFORD: for LaPoile is sore. The hon. the Premier. I am very sorry if the member I am very, very sorry and we apologize . We apologize for having our homework done. MR. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr.

Speaker, if the federal government which has the jurisdiction, does not cut off the seal fishery that Newfoundlandecs have traditionally had, well, then obviously there is going to be a seal fishery because we support it. Now even if they do - even if the federal government does we will argue to keep the seal fishery going. That is the point. We do not have full jurisdiction here.

Wnere we have jurisdiction,we will ensure it continues; where we do not have jurisdiction 1 we will make representations to ensure that that part of the jurisdiction of the seal fisher• which comes under the federal government continues the Nay it GOS~

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2610 DW - 4 PREMIER PECKFORD: has in the past so that Newfound- landers can continue tc prosecute a traditional fishery in this Province. So the hon. member for LaPoile (~·!r. Neary) need net worry. Gq~;

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2611 AH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Do not worry. We are on top of it and we will take care of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. LUSH: MR. NEARY : MR. LUSH: Manpower (Mr. Dinn). MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I have a question ~ You have lost the argument. - for the Minister of Labour and It has nothing to do with the feds. Oh, oh! Order, please! I think it is fair to point out that while the Chair has the responsibility of enforcing the rules of this hon.

House, so too do all hon. members have the responsibility of adhering to those rules, and I trust that they will. The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower.

In view of the complete breakdown in negotiations between the provincial government, or Treasury Board, and the union representing the support staff at the College of Trades and Technology, and in view of the fact that the minister indicated to this House yesterday that the main issue here was salary, money, wages; in view of these facts, Sir, I wonder if the minister can indicate whether there was a substantial difference in the amount offered by Treasury Board - and I assume that there was an offer before there was a breakdown in negotiations - can the minister indicate whether there was a substantial difference in the offer made by Treasury Board and that demanded by the support staff at the College of Trades and Technology?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I could indicate what the difference was to j~st about the exact cent, but I will not indicate it in e>e House. As I said to the hon. member 6gSR

December 3,1980 Tape No. 2611 AH-2 ~1R. DINN: yesterday, I have no intention of laying out both sides of negotiation that is conducted in my department at any time in this House. MR.LUSH: MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): for Terra Nova. ti'LR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon.mernber Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate to the House that the difference is not so much in the salary per se but that the members of this particular union are asking for a different structure in their increases? For example, Mr.

Speaker, is it not that rather than looking for a percentage increase,because a percentage increase of a small salary does nothing to narro·w the gaps between lower and higher wages, so it is that they a~e looking for a different structure? Let us say, for example, a lump sum across the board as opposed to a percentage increase? MR. SPEAKER: and Hanpower. MR. DINN: The hon. the Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, again I have no intention of negotiating in this House or talking about what happened in negotiations.

The hon. member did ask a specific question with respect to percentage versus lump sum payment and there is included in the latest offer both options. HR. LUSH: Mr.Speaker. sqso

Dec:e:nbe.r 3, 1980 Tape 2612 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, the hon. ~he member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: In view of the fact that the watter in question here, or the issue in question, is a very serious matter, namely that of salary, could the minister indicate what steps he has taken or the government have taken to get both groups of people back to the bargaining table again, or what steps he plans to take to ensure that these negotiations are settled as expeditiously as possible for the sake of good labour relations in this Province, particularly those with the government? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, there are certain rights unions have in this Province and management have in this Province with respect to negotiations. There is no way that the Department of Labour or the Minister of Labour should impose his will upon either side in negotiations, and we have to tread that very difficult path of going right down the middle without taking sides on any issue and we have to listen to both sides and we have to maintain credibility during these very strenuous negotiations that go on.

So it leaves me in a fairly difficult position when asked by the hon. member opposite, who knows the position that I am in, to answer specific questions with respect to negotiations. He asked what steps I have taken. I have taken all the steps that are capable of being taken with respect to negotiations, particularly with respect to the College of Trades and Technology. My conciliation officer, who has been with this from day one, is in constant communications with both sides in the negotiation.

I spoke to him not later than this morning and the!."e is no change in either side, so that there is not much that cdn be done in this Rq~=:n

December 3, 1980 Tape 2612 EC - 2 HR . DINN : situation . The emp1cyees have a right in this P~ovince to exercise the option of striking . t·le may not like it at times , it may be difficult at times for the employee s and for gove rnment ,but ~hey have that right . I have no intention of t~~ing ~hat right away from them and,whilst I am ~~inister of Labour and Manpower, they shall maintain th at right. !t may not be helpful to either them or to gove rnment in this situation , but the fact of the matter is that they have that right .

Now , constant communicacions •vill be ongoing , and we will do everything within our power under the Act , and we will not impose our will on either side. MR. HISCOCK: ~~. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Simms ): The hen . the member for Eagle River. MR . aiSCOCK : My question is for the Minister of Transportati on (t-1r . Brett) or the Mini st er of Rural , Agricult~ral and Northern Developm ent (Mr . Goudie) . i\ report was sent !'rom the three development associations in Labrador wit~ regard to a report on trail grooming equipment.

This is where they are asking the equipma~t to double the trails instead o ~ the one trail thac is down in Labrador nO \v, and this is neaded for safety reasons . Also during the ~'iinter, the main means of transportation is by skidoo . I, myself, when I was visiting the GQR1

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2613 SD - l MR. E. HISCOCK: district last year,t~avelled over 125 miles on skidoos between these places. This equipment itself that is needed, they are asking the Department of Transportation and the Department of Rural Development for $10,000 to operate the equipment and $50,000 for the grant. Could either one cf these ministers inform us of what progress is on this report? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development. MR. J. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I will take the second half of the question.

As the hon. member has suggested, there has been a submission from development associatio"s for approximately $50,000 to cover the capital costs of purchasing a trail grooming unit. It is being dealt with right now by officials in the department and should be brought to the Board's attention within a matter of a week or so, I would think, and the Board at that time will make , their decision on the request. M...-q. E. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for With regard to the question of the trail groomers,Mr.

Speaker, it is not only needed for the trails for safety reasons,because the RCMP itself has pointed out the danger of only having one trail with bm skidoos coming in different directions at 50 miles per hour, but Labrador Airways itself has sent out letters to these communities saying that if the government does net provide some type of equipment to clear ice strips on the harbours or on the ponds in these communities then they will not be delivering mail by way of the Twin Otter to ?or-t Hope Simpson, St. Lewis, Charlottetown and Williams Harbour. Can the Minister of Transportation (Mr. C.

Brett) on "the first part of the question inform us if the $10,000 is sqr;?

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2613 SD - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: coming from the Department of Transportation to look after an operator of this equipment if the Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) provides the $50,000 for the grant for the capital? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Minister of Transportatio~. MR. C. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot give an answer in the affirmative. I do not know exactly where that stands now. I got involved in the trail grooming outfit sometime last year - MR. NEARY: You are on top of everything alright, but we will not say what you are on top of, SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Heur, hear! MR. C. BRETT: - and we agreed that such a piece of equipment was necessary, I suppose, from the point of view that the skidoo trails in Northern Labrador are equally as important as our Trans-Canada Highway on the Island. However, we felt that we should not be involved, we felt that this department should not be involved since we are concerned with the road network of the Province~ so from the point of view it was handed over to my colleague's department.

We clear the airstrips that are in Labrador now~ whether we have ever gone out and actually cleared spots on the ponds or the harbours, I cannot be certain. And I do not recall getting a request for SlO,OOO~ The one that I saw was for the grant to purchase a piece of equipment. I do not recall any request for a grant to operate it. MR. HISCOCK: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEltKER: Final supplementary, the hon. member for Eagle River. :1R. HISCOCK: With regard to the grant, Mr. Speaker, and for clearing the airstips, the minister is quite right.

His department has not gotten into the process of clearing the harbours or clearing the ponds. I wrote the minister l.: .st year asking him if his department would come up '.vi th some GqR-;

December 3, 1980 Tape No . 2613 so - 3 l>!R . E . HISCOC!< : money to cle ar the harbours and t:1e airstri:;>s on the ponds and the minist;er said, 'How can we clear the airstrip - ~!R . SPEAKER (Simm s): Order, please ! If ~he hon . m~~er has a question he has thirty seconds remai:lir.g if he toJants to ask it . :·1R . HISCOCK : The question tl"l the Minister of Transportation {Mr . Brett) is that since they have requested . , $10 ,000 by the development association, can che minister inform this Hous e at a further date whether this money will be forthcoming? :OIR .

SPEA.i(ER : The hon . ~linist;er of Transportation . MR . C. SRETT : 1-1r . Speaker, we • . .;i ll be takinc; a look at the reque st and I can inform the hon. member at a later date . t1R . SPEAt<ER : Order , please ! The time for ~ral Questions has expired . OPnERS OF THE DAY ;om . SPEAKER : This being Private ~1err,bers' Day, I call Motion 2, moved by the hon. member for Placentia (Mr . N. Patterson) . SOME HON . ~1EMBE?.S : ~\R . W. PATTERSON : The hon . the member =or Placentia . Hgar , hear . Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

On openi:lg day I introduced the :ollowing resolution, It reads; 'WHEREAS , before Confederation, this Province owned its offshore minerals and did not relinquish t~e same Rqh !,

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2614 EL-l MR. PATTERSON: under the Terms of Union; AND

WHEREAS the revenues, employment and industrial benefits which will result from offshore development will flow through the Province only if its ownership and control are confirmed; AND

WHEREAS if the Province does not control the rate and type of development, many negative impacts will occur in our Province; AND w~EREAS if certain proposed offshore development plans are permitted to go ahead, few employment or industrial benefits will accrue to the Province; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House supports the Conservative Administration in its effort to preserve this Province's historic, moral and legal claims to own and control its offshore and mineral resources.' SOME HON. ~lEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, the Province's offshore oil and gas rights are not based on recent :).egal developments.

Our right to ownership of these resources is based directly on the outcome of a number of well-known pre-Confederation and political and constitutional struggles in which our forefathers were successful in ensuring the protection of the territorial integrity of the Province and ourrights to the marine resources of , the surrounding seas. The various provinces joined Confederation at different times. For instance, the original four provinces of Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia in 1867, British Columbia in 1871, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia in 1867.

Thus, unlike any other provinces, New­ foundland's pre-Confederation offshore oil and gas rights were not those of anineteenthcentury colony such as British Columbia in 1871, but those of a twentieth century self-governing Britis~ Dominion, with all the rights of a sovereign state, in 1949. 6qF)c;

December 3, 1980 'rape No. 2614 EL - 2 MR. P./I_TTERSON: The booklet, Heritage of the Sea simply states,in part, our case for offshore oil and gas ownership. It reads,"That by the common law of Englanc the Crown has from time immemorial claimed ownership of the bed of the seas surrounding England and the Crown's over­ seas dominions, extending seaward without limitation in ab­ scence of any international law limiting such rights and there was no such limit.

Number two, that in any event, by 1949 international law, quite apart from corr~on law,estab­ lished that each coastal state was entitled to the minerals of its continental shelf. Number three, that in 1949, New­ foundland was or had all the rights of such a coastal state Four, that by Term 37 of the Terms'of Union, Newfoundland the Province retained after Confederation all of the con­ tinental shelf mineral~ that Newfoundland, the coastal state had held prior to Confederation either by common law or by international law. Mr.

Speaker, during the contin­ ental shelf negotiations between the United States of America, Newfoundland and Canada from 1943 to 1945, Canada did not protest the automatic continental shelf rights theory. In light of Newfoundland's written position supporting that theory, should Ottawa now be able to rest on its silence and say that the continental shelf rights were not automatic because Newfoundland did not ensure a proclamation claiming them~ Such rights are not to be excluded from the meaning of Term 37.

Surely if that was Canada's position 1it was the responsibility of the negotiators to point that out during the 1948 discussions on Term 37. 6QR8

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2614 EL - 3 HR. PATTERSON: As a people , ~~ . Speaker, con - trol the rate and type of development within our Province, federal otmership and control of Newfoundland's offshore petroleum resources would place Ottawa in an overwhel mingl y dominant position \vith regard to determining the rate of social and economic change within the Province. This fact·or is t.lle planning response ~o the impact of North Sea Oil develQpments in Scotland especially in the Highlands and the island areas . However, Norway has taken consideratien of the social con­ sequence ·s of offshore oil much further and has recognized it not only as a 6SlR7

December 3, l980 Tape No. 2615 NM - 1 ~!R. PATTERSON: potential danger, but also as a potential tool for solving social problems. The Royal No~'egian Ministry of Social Affairs noted that the changes can be desirable and can contribute to solving social tasks, but if they take place too rapidly considerabl~ social problems could evolve. Our government has indicated that this will not be the case. The offshore resource will be development in a planned manner for ~ewfoundland by Newfoundlanders, where possible.

We have stated in the firmest terms that our way of life and traditions will not be compromised and sacrificed in a boom and bust syndrome. Owner­ ship of our offshore resource would assure control of our economic and social destinies and allow the Newfoundland economy some time to develop the skills and infrastructure needed to respond to the development opportunities.

If Ottawa were to succeed in its present claims,it would control not only Newfoundland's offshore mineral resource, but also the level and kind of onshore development required to develop these resources and,indirectly. the rate and kind of social change. With no control over these developrnents,Newfoundland's existing constitutional powers would be severely eroded. In essence,Newfoundland would exist as a Province in name only. Such a development would not be in the national interest.

The national interest would be better served if offshore resource development occurred in a manner which . would serve and contribute to the regional development and promote the preservation of strong, viable provinces, the cornerstones of Confederation. AN HON . MEl-1'.BER : Right on. MR. PATTERSON: Provincial owners hip and control, Mr. Speaker, of any future petroleum industr y can better provide the intimate knowledqe of local, social and economic and ph ysical condition~which are vital to sound resource management. 6Q~R

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2615 NM - 2 MR. PATTERSON: In ~~~~tion there is and will be a greater need to co-ordinate the development of offshore resources with decisions and policies in exclusively provincial fields such as education, highways, industrial parks, housing and health. More than anything else we must not allow ourselves to be pressured into developing our offshore resource too fast, or in a wrong manner. The industry and revenues associated with the offshore oil and gas can be means whereby our industrial base, including the fisheries, can be revitalized.

We must ensure this opportunity is not squandered. The questions posed by those activities make provincial ownership of offshore oil and gas an absolute necessity. Will residents of the Province be given preference in oil related employment? Will SU!Jply bases and large construction and fabrication sites be located in the Province and where? Will o~l and gas be landed, processed and used within the Province? The answer to these practical questions will determine Newfoundland's future. The issue is simply too important to leave the answers to Ottawa.

If the Province is to remain a distinct and viable member of Confederation . there is no question'that federal control would mean that our offshore oil and gas resource would be developed at a rate and under conditions which would more reflect the needs of Central Canada than those of Newfoundland and Labrador. I find this direction to be simpl" unacceptable. Ottawa must recognize the legitimate interests of our people as it recognizes the interests of several other provinces when i·t handed over o'.mership and control in a number of resource sectors. Why is our case so different?

Are we to be singled out among our sister provinces, given our historic, legal, historic and moral claim to our offshore resources and watch aqain the painful demise of our development? 8qf1q "

_., ~e~-~ ~ .. l:91r& Tape No . 2615 NH - 3 ~1R . PATTERSON : ~-le cannot stand idly by and allotll this to happen . Our people are looking more than ever before to a brig ht , secure future , to ou r Province bec oming a viable, co nt ributing 9artner in Confederation . Ne mu st, and \'lill ensure that this optimism does not simply become another faded dream . I th an k you . SOME HON . ~!EMBERS : Hear , hea r! .• 6q7n f

DECE!1BER 3,1980 Tape No. 2616 AH-1 MR . SPEAKER (Simms): The hon.member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, !-1r. S,peaker. I enj eyed the discourse by the hon. member for Placentia(Br.Patterson).I I!U.lSt say though that I findhim a lot more interesting when he is up in his own style flailing away instead of when he is quoting legal ~ls or. quoting the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry). Mr. Speaker, let us for a second take a look at the resolution. It say,"Mr. Patterson to move:

WHEREAS, before Confederation, this Pro vince"(this is the first clause), "before Confederation this Province". Wel~ before Confederation this was not a Province. That is the first clause, Mr. Speaker. "AND

WHEREAS the revenues, employment and industrial benef its which will result from offshore development will flow to the Province only · ~ LL its ownership and control are confirmed." Now I will remind the member that in the Premier's worst scenario in his famous three-barrel theory, his famous propaganda sheet , in the worst scenario you could think about Newfoundland would get twenty per cent - not that we are going to accept that but that is the very worst, so obviously there will be some benefit flow, twenty per cent of all the billions of petro dollars that are going to come ashore out there if you are to be lieve the party or the Cabinet or minister that the han. rrember supports.

So ·I mean that is a little ambiguous too. "AND w~EREAS if the Province does not control the rate and type of development, many negative impacts will occur." Well, Mr. Speaker, I can "tell this hon. House that a lot of people in this Province are afraid that there are going to be negati ve impacts whether the c;q71

December 311980 . KR. . FLIGiiT : does not . MR . NEA...~Y : MR. FLIGP.T : Tape No . 2616 AH-2 !?rovince controls or '"hether it That is right. The fisberme:n on the Grand Banks have no assurance yet that a blo;-Jout will not \•Tipe out their 1.;ay of life, so regarciless of who supports , Mr . Speaker - or ~1ho controls there may well be negative impacts . SOME HON . MEt<iBERS : Hear I hear ! ~1R .

FLIGH T: "AND WHEREA S if certain, '' listen to this for ambiguity, 11 AND wnEREAS if certain proposed offshore development plans" - it does not say '"hich ones, just "eertain offshore development plan s are permitted to go ahead , few employment or industrial benefits \·I ill accrue to this Province .'' Now how is that for being ambiguous? "\VHEREAS if certain offshore development plans are permitted to go ahead "- ~1R . MOORES : Leo Barry . 11R . FLIGHT: We do not kno1·1 ~1hat the cert _ain offshore plans are . So , Mr .

Speaker I I do not know 1o1hat the member is talking about in that particular clause, I doubt if the House !-enol-IS, and I do not think the member knows . So that takes care of that particu lar clause MR . MOORES: A typical Leo Barry resolution. MR . NEARY : l<lR . FLIGHT: It sounds like politics. No1 o~, Mr . Speaker, let me tell the han . House , let me tell the Hou se that we have a position, th .is party has a po sition on offshore .

It is well established in the House . in a resolution presented to this Hou se in 1975 , February 26,1975 one of the lvhereases ,1' tVHEREAS the re sources of the seabed belongs to the Province of Ne~1foundland and Labrador ." T!:l ere is a plaque , Hr . Speaker, for anyone \vho might want to know 1 there is a plaque some1vhere out on the -rand Banks , put there before the previous, previous administration "q]?

December 3,1980 Tape No . 2616 AH -3 ~ffi . FLIGRT : was in power in this Province, put th ere by a Lib eral Premier asserting ownership to the seabed . "1R. LuSH : Dr. Eugh Lilly . 1·t~. FLIGHT : Dr . Euqh Lilly, if somebody \'Tants to look it up . so there is no question , Z·1r . Speaker , about how we stand on the O\'mership of offshore or the right to develop or cr.e rate ofcontrol. Let me tell the :ninister someth ing . The Pre mier indicated last year before the House closed that he 1-1a!:' off to Ottawa to discuss of!:shore with the Prime ~tini ster .

And I recall the member fo!' LaPoile (Mr . ~e ary ) speaki ng on behalf of this side and he 1-;as saying in effe ct ,· ~~. Premier , go to Ottawa, do the best job you can co . You have our support:., you have a mandate, you have been elected by the people of Newfoundla nd t:o run the af:airs of thi s Province, now go up and do ,.,hat you must do to get the be st possible deal you can get for Newfoundland . You have cur support . Now away to go .' ~~ . ~~= That is right . ~'!R. FLIGHT : So , Mr . Speaker , that should tell ~~e government wh ere we stand· tbere is no need of this resolution . But ,~tr.

Speaker, there are circu:nstances under \vhich I can support th is resolution . SOME HON .MEMBERS : Bear, hear ! MR .FLIGHT : The re are circumstances t:nder 'o~hich I c an support thi s resolutio n. If the Minister of 6q7~

December 3, 1980 Tape 2617 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) is prepared to prove to me that he is prepared to take this debate outside of the realm of politics, that anything he is saying about offshore is said in the better interests of Newfoundland, politics notwithstanding, then I will support his Resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And t9 find out, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the ~<Iinister of Mines and Enerc;r .' or the hon. the member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) is prepared to take the debate, the offshore issue, outside of the realm of politics and prove to the people of Newfoundland that he has only one motivation in this and that is to develop that offshore in the better interests of Newfoundlanders, I will support the Resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And we will find out whether this hon. government is using the offshore issue for political argument or not. And, Mr. Speaker, I propose to make an amendment to the Resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MOORES: MR. FLIGHT: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! I will second it.

Now, listen to the amendment. Oh, oh! rm. FLIGHT: I move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) that the Resolution be amended by deleting all the words after 'Therefore

be it resolved' and replacing them with the following; now, Mr. Speaker, 'the following· in the Resolution itself - Where is the Resolution? Now, Mr. Speaker, for anyone who wants to wonder whether I am concerned about let us debate this issue outside of the realm of politics - I am looking for the - oh, yes, now we will see, Mr.Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 6 Q 7 L,

December 3, 1980 Tape 2617 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: 'Therefore

be it resolved'- there is the Resolution: 'Therefore

be it resolved that this hon. House supports the Conservative administration in its efforts to preserve this Province's historic, moral and legal claims to ownership and control of the offshore.' My amendment, Sir, says this, that the Resolution be amended by deleting the words 'Therefore be it now resolved' and replacing it with the following: 'that this hon. House supports the Province's' - Newfoundland's - 'historic, moral and legal claim to own and control its offshore mineral resources. ' SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: motivation. MR . SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Now, Mr. Speaker, I have one Order, please!

The Chair would like to have a look at the amendment before it rules it in order and allows the hon. member to speak. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. OTTENHEIMER: I assumed you had accepted it, Oh, oh! A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. the Minister of Jus .tice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the amendment is in order, that its alteration is merely cosmetic.

It goes into that it be resolved that this House •supports the Province's historic, moral and legal claim to own and control its offshore mineral resources.· It leaves out the words 'Conservative administration' but everybody knows it is a Conservative administration which has led the fight for that recognition and we certainly think it is 807~

December 3, 1980 HR. OTTENHEIMER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. HODDER: order. MR. SPEAXER (Simms): Tape 2617 in order. Hear, hear! EC - 3 Mr. Speaker, to the point of To the point of order, the hon. the mamber for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) goes along with that particular resolution, but I would like to say to the Minister of Justice that the Minister of Justice very well knows that that is a Liberal stand and has been a Liberal stand for many, nany years. In fact, the late Dr. John Lilly put a plaque, as the han. member said - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. HODDER: - on the floor of the Grand Banks and that has never changed at our federal/provincial conferences at any time since this issue has arisen. That is all I have to say, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well, with respect to the point of order- I do not know if it is a point of order, really­ I suspect that hon. members from both sides were trying to offer the Chair advice in helping him make his decision whether or not the amendment is in order. I rule that the amendment, as proposed by the han. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight), is in order. [lQ7g

~ December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2618 DW - l MR. SPEAKER {SI~WS) : The only matter I was debating was the questioning. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We will see now, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Mines and Energy {Mr. Barry) and the other hon. members on the govern­ ment side are prepared to stand by what they indicated a few minutes ago ,that they wanted to take it out of the realm of partisan politics. Because, Mr.

Speaker, the problem in this Province is that this debate, the offshore issue has been perceived by the people as being nothing only a political power play by this administration. Nothing only a political power play! We have supported - there is nobody sitting on the other side of the House, Mr. Speaker, there is really no need for this resolution. There has been no statements made by anyone representing the official Opposi­ tion in this House that we nre ouoosed to ownership, that we are opposed to the rate and type of development, and there is no need for this resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. G.

FLIGHT : Let us look, Mr. Speaker, at where we are in this debate. We are - MR. MARSHALL: Will the hon. member permit a question? l-1R. T . LUSH : No MR. G. FLIGHT: No. The hon. House Leader can speak - ~1R. R. MOORES : No questions. 6q77 ·.

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2618 DW - 2 t-1R. G. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, in this debate, as this offshore issue we are in, if there was ever a Mexican stand-off we are in a stand ~ff. The Government of Newfoundland has a mandate, they have a two to one seat majority practically in this House,and they are charged with the responsibility of nego­ tiating with Ottawa,or whoever they have to negotiate with, on getting our offshore resource,number one,under explora­ tion; number two, into development and then into production. ~ow, that is where it is, Mr. Speaker. To date, Mr.

Speaker, this administration has not been able to cut away the politics. They have not been able to come up with any kind of agree­ ments. The people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, are saying, 'What is wrong?' Let us assume we accept, as the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. W.N.· Rowe) pointed out yesterday, the government's theory that we do not want to prove, we do not want to go to court to prove our ownership. Let us assume we accept that on the basis that because that centralist Supreme Court will rule in mainland Canada's favour, will rule in Ottawa's favour, let us assume we accept that.

So that is the court issue aside. Now, Mr. Speaker, wha~ are we going to do? This government says we own it, they say we are going to control it~ Ottawa says you do not own it and you are not going to control it. When are we going to come to some kind of a negotiated settlement on the jurisdiction? Mr. Speaker, the next speaker in this debate - the people of Newfoundland need ~o know what this government is going - how they are going to settle this jurisdictional debate? How are they going to settle it? 8q7~

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2618 DW - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT : The Premier has hinted two or three times . In the Constitutional Conference he said if he did not a~t his own way he_may call an election. Well, that is difficult to figure out, Mr. Speaker. I cannot see how the Prime Minister of ~anada would be any more concerned dealing with the Premier after an election than before. As I said 1 he has got a two to one seat majori~y in this Hou~e. Now, Mr. Speaker, when is the government - I want to hear the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) or the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) or the Premier tell the people of Newfoundland how they expect to settle this situation. How are they going to determine that we have the ownership, that we have control and that we are going to go into development? Now, Mr. Speaker, the people are well aware that it is possible for Newfoundland to go into production on the Hibernia by 1985. They are well aware that it will take the next five years to put the infrastructu~e that will be required in place in order to go into production. They do not want production at any cost.

They are prepared to wait until 1986, 1987 or 1988 if it takes that long to develop the offshore resource in our interest. But there are some people concerned, Mr. Speaker, that this government is playing more politics than anything. They are not looking at getting that offshore resource dev~loped in a way that will bring on production in the quickest cossible period, always making sure that the Province's interest is protected. So, Mr.

Speaker, when all the rhetoric that we have been hearing from the Minister of - if the minister would tell the people of Newfoundland, tell this House ,since we are into such a stand-off as we are, since the minister is not prepared to accept a court ruling - and he may be right in that~I do not know,but he may be- 8q7Q

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2619 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: I want the minister to tell the House how they intend to resolve this situation? We have a federal government in Ottawa that will be there for the next five years - MR. NEARY: Right. MR. FLIGfiT: - and maybe for the next five after that, I do not know. There is no indication that the federal government, or the Prime Minister, is going to change his attitude. The Premier going to Ottawa with forty-nine of fifty-two seats makes no difference, he has got two to one now. That will not impact on the present administration in Ottawa.

I want the minister to stand up and tell us what he sees as a resolution to this. l1R. LUSH: Sure the Premier told us. MR. FLIGHT: Ottawa says no, Newfoundland says yes. So we sit on the resource until what? Until we get a change of attitude in Ottawa? Until we get a change of government in Ottawa? MR. LUSH: settlement. MR. r;!EARY: .t-'.R. FLIGHT: MR. S. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. FLIGHT: MR. LUSH: MR. FLIGHT: The Premier said a negotiated Or a change in Newfoundland. Or a change of government in Newfoundland~; Which is the rrost likely. No. No. Until Hell freezes over. Until Hell freezes over.

That is what the Premier said. Until Hell freezes over? Mr. Speaker, this is what has got the people in this Province so concerned about this government's approach, the confrontation situation with Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, everyone knows in Newfoundland, everyone knows that we would not know but for Ottawa's involvement, in an indirect and a direct way, we would not even know Eibernia 6qRn

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2619 NM - 2 MR. FLIGHT: was out t"-e:ce, t:i1erE' vould have J,een no exploration in the first place. You know,it was the Ottawa funding, it was the Ottawa concessions to the oil companies, the indirect and direct involvement that made the exploration programme possible in the first place. But that is not to their credit. Let us not give them any credit for that.

IVell,let us decide, let this adrninistrat~on tell this House of Assembly how it is that we are going to get into production on Hibernia, or any other oil discovered offshore. l'l'hat it is, how they see, given the stalemate that we have re this government in Ottawa over the jurisdictional dispute, then let somebody stand in his place on the other side and tell this House how it is that they propose to break that stalemate, how it is they propose to break that stalemate. MR. LUSH: said. MR. FLIGHT: Negotiated settlement 1 the Premier Now, Mr.

Speaker, I suspect that the Premier knows, and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) knows, and the hon. Bouse Leader knows chat one day there will be a settlement, a negotiated, political settlement. MR. LUSH: is what the Premier said. MR. FLIGHT: That is what the Premier said. That The last thing that this adrninstration, Mr. Speaker - and here is the reason for the amendment - the last thing that this administration wants, the Premier would fall out of his seat, dry up and blow away, the Minister of Mines and Energy would have nothing else to talk about, if Mr.

Trudeau picked up the phone today and said to the Premier of Newfoundland, "We have just made a decision. It is yours. Ownership is yours. Jurisdictional control is yours. Legislative control is yours. It is all yours. And ten or fifteen years from now, after you have become the have Province that you want to be, that you should be,then 6qR1 .;;

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2619 NM - 3 MR. FLIGHT: if you feel like sending a few dollars up our way,we will accept that." He would blow up, Mr. Speaker, because the Premier would have just then lost the one political issue that he has hung his hat on, the one political issue that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and the Premier have been espousing. The last thing they want is a settlement. MR. BARRY: Which one is that? ERCO or the Churchill? MR. FLIGHT: They do not want a settlement, Mr. Speaker.

We will have something to say about the Upper Churchill and the Lower Churchill development, maybe in the ERCO bill. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the issue and more and more people are beginning to realize the political, the blatant politics that this administration is playing with our offshore resource. MR. LUSH: We are sick and tired of it. MR. FLIGHT: They are more concerned, Mr. Speaker, of where the sites for the development are going to be. This administration has got communities in this Province fighting with each other, Mr. Speaker, as to where the development sites, the service centres are going to be.

They are concerned about whether they will be here or there. They are looking for some sense of direction. They are looking for some indication that that offshore will ever be developed. MR. LUSH: That will mean something. r-rn. FLIGHT: That will mean something to them. They are concerned, Hr. Speaker, that - the member when he was ta~king about funding for industrial parks, and funding for municipal service fees, and municipal services - and, Mr. Speaker, they are concerned that that kind of money will ever be generated. And maybe the goverP~ent is prepared to take the attitude, 'Till hell freezes over'.

Maybe the government in this Province is prepared to take the attitude that we will 6QR?

Tape No . 2619 t>m - 4 December 3,1980 MR . FLIGilT : not develop the offshore till hell freezes over unless we get ou..r t•ay, ~ut the moment of truth is going to come, ?1r . Speaker, the Minister of i-Unes and Energy (~r . Barry) is going to have to stand up one day , mavbe in t~e ve~y near future,and tell the people of Newfoundland how he proposed to break this deadlock . SOME HON .MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! ~R . FLIGRT: The oil companies, ~~ - Speaker, are prepared by his own figures to get 6 q R'~

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2620 EL - 1 MR. FLIGHT: into production by 1985 - 86, they need four or five years to get ready and one day, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) is going to have to sand up and tell us how he resolved this situation. MR. LUSH: He is going to be judged one day, one day. l>lR . L. Bi>.RRY : It •.-1i ll no t be long :to> 'l. AN HO N . ~!EMBER: (Inaudible ) MR. FLIGHT: Good, we will hear it now in a few minutes.

Well, fine, then we will have taken it out of the realm of politics and you will say to the people, here it is, ladies and gentlemen, here is what we have negotiated, right? And I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, it will be a negotiated settlement. It will not be a recognition of offshore owner­ ship per se. foundland are Mr. Speaker, the people of New­ concerned today about the impact that the offshore related economy is having on this Province. It was interesting to see a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, St.John's ne~t to Vancouver in escalation in housing costs. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I will tell this House that every person in St. John's, every person in St. John's who needs a house is not an oil executive.The brenty-five per cent increase in housing in one year we saw in this Province, Mr. Speaker is impacting very badly, is creating real problems for the people, Mr. Speaker, who will never work in the offshore, who will never benefit from offshore by way of ~~ployment. The oil executives can afford to buy $40,000 houses that have es­ calated to $125,000. Central Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, is wondering how they will benefithnd when ·the member for Placentia(W.

Patterson) talks about the government spending 6RFll" -·

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2620 EL - 2 MR, FLIGHT: the revenues from offshore on industrial parks and municipal services and hospitals,then they will have to have a change of heart, Mr. Speaker, be­ cause all I have heard from this administration since 1972 is balance the budget, pay off the provincial debt- well, we will need some Hibernias. If the attitude from the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) and the House Leader(W. Marshall) and the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) is the same att­ itude that their predecessors had,we will need some Hibernias, Mr.

Speaker,before any money is allocated from revenue off­ shore to build an industrial park in Placentia. They will first want, Mr. Speaker, -=hey will fi:::-st want to pay off the provincial debt 1 to balance the budget. The minister should get up - and I will tell this hon. House and I will tell the Minister, when the election comes and the offshore is an issue,I will tell you the question that is going to be asked in my district~ every PC candidate that comes into the district. somebody is going to say,'¥es, we will give you ownership, you tell us what you are going to do with the money that comes as a result.

Are you going to balance the budget, are you going to pay off the 9royincial debt before some of it flows to Badger or Miller­ town or Buchans Junction ? ' The few essential services we have now, Mr. Speaker, and we have had no improvement since 1972, were not based on the ability of this Province to make money on the offshore. The contribution to the economy of this Province that offshore will make was not a factor in the money that was borrowed to provide the various services that we have and, Mr.Speaker, it is Liberal policy, it is Liberal policy that the money that is made of the offshore will in the sqA~ -

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2620 . EL - 3 MR. FLIGHT: first instance go to improve the way of life of ordinary Newfoundlanders, And I wonder, Mr. Speaker, will a Tory -the member for St. Johnts East (.W. Marshalll, President of the Council, will feel very uncomfortable, Mr. Speaker, if he has a Tory, if he has a Tory out in Windsor-Buchans telling the people that he is prepared to spend the revenue we make from offshore on up­ grading their services, recapping their roads, putting in water and sewerage systems - MR. LUSH: It will not be the Marshall plan . MR.

FLIGHT: - before a cent is applied to the Provincial debt or to balancing ·the Budget. I will tell you something else the people are wondering about, Mr. Speaker, is this Corne By Chance attitude of the minister with regards to Hibernia and offshore. Now, Mr. Speaker, when we first talked about an oil refinery in this Province, it was an accepted fact that the oil refinery should have :Oeen, had things gone right, had there been a crude supply, had it been operated properly and if all the things that should have been done were done, the first step was to have been the refinery.

And from that was supposed to have flowed a petro chemical complex, all possible under God, Mr. Speaker, all possible. And it was the petro chemical complex, Mr. Speaker, that was supposed to have provided a basis of the economy for that part­ icular area, ten or twelve thousa .nd people, if it had worked out. Now, the people are wondering, Mr.

Speaker, they accepted the Bankruptcy, no crude supply, you know, all the problems with obtaining an oil supply, bank­ ruptcies and all that, but now suddenly they are told-the guy on the street is told that we have all the oil, almost as much oil as Alberta a couple of hundred miles off our coast and we are going to land it onshore in Newfoundland. Well, it seems second nature to them that that refinery would be now re­ activated to use that product. We have our 6 q p, h

December 3, 1980 Tape :-<o. 2621 so - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: O'Nn oil to put into our own refinery. They do not undeT3tand how a refinery, given those circurnstan~es, can be shutdown, how our government can unload a refinery for Sl7 million to Petro-Canada or anybody else with no corr®itrnents or no obligations that that refinery will be re-activated, that it may, indeed, be let go for scrap. They do not understand that, Mr. Speaker. And,Mr. Speaker, when the gover~~ent talks about all the employment that is going to be created as a result of the offshore effort, development of the offshore resources - we are told, Mr.

Spe~ker, and it is based on research that 10,000 jobs could have been provided in the Corne By Chance area with a petro-chemical industry. And we are going to let that oil refin~ry go to scrap, we are going to let Petrocan sell it possibly, mothball it, decide what they want to do with it before we are in a position, Mr. Speaker, to utilize the oil we have off our coast in that refinery. People do not understand that. The Minister of Mines and Energy {Mr.

Barry) might understand i~, he might know all the technical reasons why it should not be 1 but the people do not ~nderstand ~t ~nd he has not done a very good job explaining it to them. He could not care less, I guess, Mr. Speaker, whether they understand it or not,but they do not understand it. Mr. Speaker, I do not ~nderstand, nor do many other people in Newfoundland, this concept, this 100 per cent revenue for Newfoundland under the three barrels. I mean, I have great difficulty, Mr. Speaker, watching the constitutional conference when the pr. nremier of Nova Scotia, Mr.

Buchanan, said that they joined Newfoundland, they refused to accept the seventy-five, they opted out of it - they had agreed on a 75/25 - and then Newfoundland pushed the case for 100 per cent, I guess, or the 100 per cent was offered; anyway, Nova Scotia pulled out of that, wou:d not accept it anymore. But here is Mr. Suchanan, the Pre~ier of Nova Scotia, sqR7

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2621 SD - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT : lvho believes they got oil off the Coast of Nova Scotia, off Sable Island, saying, 'We will accept the 100 per cent but I want to make it clear that 100 per cent means - AN HON. MEMBER: ~ow much more time do you have MR. G. FLIGHT: • I do not know, Another half an hour? 11R. SPEAKER {Butt): Three minutes. MR. G. FLIGHT: Do I not get a notification, Mr. Speaker, Do I not get a five minute notification? MR. SPEAKER: Three. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. G. FLIGHT: How is it, Mr. Speaker, that ~·1r .

Buchanan can say on national television that •we accept 100 per cent but let me make it clear that 100 per cent means all royalities, all s~1rces of direct or indirect taxation, every dollar made on our offshore, that is what I mean when I say I accept that.' And they were nodding in accordance around the table and he said, 'I accept that'. Hatfield accepted it, another Tory Premier; and the people of Newfoundland are confused.

The minister may be right, maybe 100 per cent is nothing, maybe 100 per cent does not mean a thing to us 1but the two premiers- the two PC Premiers, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia - the people are concerned that they do not understand why it is that 100 per cent would have been acceptable. MR. F. STAGG: 100 per cent of what? MR. FLIGHT· That is what I am going to have the minister to explain now. If the hon. membe r for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) will stay arcund the House long enough, he will understand. MR. STAGG: { Inaudib l s explain it. 6qHR 'j

December 3, 1980 Tape NO. 2621 SD - 3 MR. G. FLTGHT : No, because I am like the great bulk of Newfoundlanders, do not really understand it. And I am not sure the member for Stephe~ville (Mr. Stagg) understands it , or the ninister understands it. MR. STAGG: MR. FLIGHT: is in it. MR. F. STAGG: sm.m HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : (Inaudible) He understands the politics that I am not the energy critic . Oh, oh. Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, the people of Newfoundland want to know the - the kind of questions they are interested in alsc are ,,;len we go into this productioi'. in 1985, is the oil going tc come ashore by pipeline? It is only five years down 'the road and ..,.1e have to start putting in the infrastructure, Pipeline or tanker? If it is tanker, is it going to come ashore in Newfoundland or will some of it go directly from the wellhead to refineries on t~e Eastern seaboard? We are only four or five years away from production now, we have been talking about this for eight years; none of those answers.

And I want to ask the minister something else with regard to his provincial control over exploration. How was it that the federal government a few days ago had to insist that the oil companies use higher pressure blowout? How did that policy come from Ottawa? Where was the minister? AN HON. MEMBER: DO not be so foolish. l1R. FLIGHT: Never mind, 'Do not be so foolis~.' I am talking about when the people read, they say, 6 q ?, a

December 3, l9BO Tape 262:! EC - 1 l<l..R. FLIGHT: 'Oh! The federal government insisted' that to make sure that the depth we had to go, that the equipment that the company was using at certain depths was safe, how come the federal government had to point that out? MR. BARRY: wno said they pointed it out? MR. FLIGHT: I did not see the minister associated with insisting, pointing out that Mobil was told not to continue drilling below certain depths unless they - the equipment is going to take another six months -blowout preventers. MR. BARRY: When did they decide that? MR. FLIGHT: About two weeks ago.

Is the minister going to - MR. BARRY: six months ago. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) on the contract Well, it just goes to show how little information the minister gives the general public with regard to offshore. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that the House, out of a sincere desire to prove to the people of Newfoundland that together we want to develop that resource in the better interests of this Province, that we do not want to keep it in the political realm, we do not want to make a political issue of it, I would hope that the House sees fit to support this amendment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Mines Hear, hear! c;qqn

December 3, 1980 Tape 2622 EC - 2 M..R.. BARRY: It is with great pleasure, Mr.Speaker, that I rise to say that I will be supporting the Resolution of the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson), a Resolution which is affected in no way by the amendment, and 1therefore, I take great pleasure in saying that I am prepared to support the cosmetic amendment proposal. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. SpeakerJ the only thing that pains me is that the Opposition feel that it is important to engage in this type of cosmetic surgery - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

BARRY: - instead of helping government ' get at what needs surgery in this Province. And what needs surgery in this Province, Mr. Speaker, are probl -ems such as the highest unemployment rate in Canada, an unemployment rate which my colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) is valiantly bringing down; problems, Hr. Speaker, that need surgery, like the fact ~hat too many of our young men and women have to go away to work; problems, Mr.

Speaker, like the fact that government does not have sufficient revenue to provide types of roads our people '\-rant and expect because they see them elsewhere; the hospitals, the schools, other medical facilities in addition to hospitals; Mr. Speaker, water and sewer facilities, the whole litany that the member for Windsor - Buchans mentioned - he mentioned some of them. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is that type of basic issue which the people of this Province elected all members, not just members here in government, all members were elected to deal with those issues, and instead, Mr.

Speaker, unfortunately I have to say that since we have come back in this session we have seen nothing but political posturing, cosmetic weasel-wording. Mr. Speaker, the time has come for us to stop that. The time has come for ~s to 6Qq1

December 3, 1980 ~1R . BARRY : the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : ~1R . BARRY : Tape 2622 EC - 3 get down and do the business of Oh , oh! Members opposite, Mr. Speaker , have been whipping the government with the st atement that the people are not interested in the Constl.tution , the y \17ant to get down to bread and butter issues, and yet He see members opposite not being content to put one amendment and debate it ad nauseam . 1-lr . Speaker , when they lose on that amendment , they attempt to put another one , which fortunately was ruled out of order . But now , Mr .

Speaker , let us for a moment just point out just hm~ much bread and butter is involved in the constitutional a"!lendment , how mu ch bread and butter is involved i~ the Resolution of the member for Place.'"ltia (Mr. Patterson), and ho•.-.1 li ·ttle bread and butter is involved in the cosmetic amendment proposed by the member for Windsor - Buchans . ~~- Speaker , members opposite refer to the fact that a'"l old frienc of mine , Dr . Hugh Lilly, was i~volved in installing a plaque on the floor of the Grand Banks , and that one of our previous Premiers had been involved in that '!!xercise . Nell, fortunatel y, Mr .

Speaker, Gq~?

.. ~ December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2623 DW - 1 MR. L. BARRY: it was only elements of theatre like that that the previous Premier was involved in. When this administration came in in 1972 1 the previous Premier and the previous, previous admin~stration were flinging permits around like rock candy. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I had a friend of mine mention to me the other day - it must be the attitude nas still hung over up on the mainland nnd they think that we still operate that way - apparently,a friend of mine said that a friend of his told him that there is a chap walking around somewhere in Vancouver - I am not sure if he has arrived here or not - who is holding himself out as a relative of mine, whether a long lost relative or not but he is holding himself out as a relative of mine who has the inside on leases. If you want an oil lease, Mr.

Speaker, you just track down this chap - and they gave me a name, I had never heard of him before - AN HON. MEMBER: Give him a licence to get hiro going. MR. L. BARRY: So, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if we have a gentleman out there trying to pull a scam on gullible members of the investment community or not. And if I can find out more details,I will be happy to have the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) try and get on his tail to track him down. But you can understand, Mr.

Speaker, how you might have the occasional qullible individual out there if they can .remember back before 1972,because that is exactly the sort of administration of these offshore resources that we had. When they were not out putting plaques on the floor of the Grand Banks, Mr. Speaker- that was going to solidify our rights for ali time: -theywere out flinging permits around as if they were rock candy, as if they were jelly beans, as if they were peanuts.

And all you had to was to know some­ body in government -it did not matter if you had ever seen a drop of oil, it did not matter if you knew what' Three-in- One ' oil was, Mr. Speaker. If you knew somebody you could expect to get a permit, a drilling permit. And then they fiqq'J.

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2623 DW - 2 .t-!R. L. BARRY: would go out and they would flog them to somebody who had a little bit of drilling expertise and hold themselves out as great oil ~gnates. Well, Mr. Speaker, this govern­ ment is determined we will never see resources abused in this Province again as they were in the past. Never! Never! Never! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, the first few years I spent in politics,I would say close to 50 per cent of the time was involved with dealing with offshore resources. A good chunk of that time, Mr.

Speaker, was dealt with attempting to negotiate a settlement, a political settlement with the Maritime Provinces, Quebec and the federal government. We were all sit~ing down, for a couple of years - MR. l'I""HITE: The Premier should have (inaudible) ~~- L. BARRY: - and the Premier did a darn good job when he was in Mines and Energy. The Premier called the bluff of the companies who were, 'Oh, no,they cannot live under our regulations.' He called their bluff. They walked away. He said, 'Go away.' They came back. Now, Mr. Speaker, we spent a number of years attempting to negotiate a political settlement.

And anybody who wants to go back to the record will find, Mr. Speaker, a detailed proposal that was set out at that time by this Province,which I have tabled ea~lier and which hon. members should be familiar with, a proposal for a negotiated settlement. In the Fall of 1974, Mr. Speaker, after a couple of years of negotiation,we sent that off to the federal govern~ent, we proposed joint administration where the federal government could have a veto and have a direct input into certain matters of high policy. But we said, Mr.

Speaker, the bottom line was that this Province should have, 'A substantial degree of control with respect to managing those resources.' And the RQyL

December ;)." !9 .'BO Tap.:! 2623 Di;) - 3 MR . L. BA:Ltl.Y : letter we got back from the present P=izne !'lin ister . who 1.;as then also Prime Minister, \vas : you had better see to your ccurt case .' 'Gentlemen NO I•i , Mr. Speaker, members O?posi te ask why are we noc negotiating . Re memb er the old song, ~r . Soeal<;:er , chat ':t T~lc:Ps 1"-lo to Ta 11go '? A)! !'iON. .)1~·1BER : !-1R . BAR.~ : It \vas si gned by the then lvhere is th e letter? The lecter has been tabled . (;Qqt:, •

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2624 EL - 1 M~. BARRY: Minist~_~t Intergov~~tal Affairs the hon. John Crosbie. li.N RON. MEMBER: lVho wrote it? ?>lR. BAJ<_R.Y: I wrote it and it was sent Mr. Speaker, in the Fall of 1974 and,Mr. Speaker, the Federal Government rejected it out of hand. They saic, 'Go to court, 'when what we were seeking was a substantial degree of control over the offshore. Now, hon. members opposite say,',~hy do you not negotiate?' It does take two to tango, Mr.

Speaker, and it takes two to negotiate and there has been absolutely no evidence, no indication that the Federal Government has any bona fide willingness to negotiate, no intent to negotiate. Mr. Speaker, the great university formula; what is this,another Newfie joke, that the Prime Minister offers us 100 per cent and we turn it dowr~ And then he turns around and he changes his offer and he makes a new offer and it is a new 100 per cent, Mr.

Speaker, and the Premier at the First )finisters' Conference had the opportunity of saying to the Prime Minister face to face, in living colour, on television, 'I will tell you what, Mr. Prime Minister, if you are offering us 100 percent, I will tell you what, I will take what you would get under that arrangement and you give me what we would get.' You did not see the Prime Minister of Canada accepting that, did you? And that offer, Mr. Speaker, was made on television, prime time,before the people of Canada .. ~d the Prime Minister ? A few shrugs! I guess Hansard c.annot pick them up, "tr.

S~er, but t.~t was :he exte.~t. "vvR. '10RG.A.N: I will check and see. 8QQ!=:

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2624 EL - 2 MR. BARRY: Now, we have published an ec- onomic analysis of Hibernia which spells out exactly - and if hon. members opposite would care to read it they would see that this so-called university formula, this so-called 100 per cent of revenues offered, would end up with this gov~rnment getting- before tae last budget . it would have been around 30 per cent of the economic rent; since the bud­ get it would be down around 25 to 20- 20 to 25 per cent. Now, Mr.

Speaker, do members opposite say, do hon. members opposite say that we should agree to that type of rip-off, attempted rip-off by the Federal Government? No, Mr. Speaker, no! Now, Mr. Speaker, that has been the position of the Federal Liberal administration when in government. Fortunately we had a Federal PC administ­ ration which very clearly showed the difference between,for my point of view, between Tories and Liberals. The Tories were prepared to recognize the right of provinces to own their nat­ ural resources.

Prime Minister Clark wrote the Premier - was not just putting these weaselly words across the Ho~se of Com­ mons that would later be followed up by an amendment intro­ duced by the Leader of the NDP or some other opposition leader. He was prepared to put it on the line and he was prepared to put it in writing, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Conservative Party and the government of the day recognized Newfoundland's right of ownership and was prepared to treat Newfoundland offshore resources the s~e as if they were on land. Now, Mr. Speaker, members opposite want to know what might be the resolution of this dispute.

I will tell you, I will tell you, Mr.Speaker, that today the Prime Minister of Canada could telex this government with the same letter that was sent by Prime Minister Clark and I would be on the plane the next morning ready to work out the details,as we 8qq7

Decembe r 3, 1980 Tape No . 2.624 EL - 3 MR. BA.qRY: were with Prime Minister Clark , of what was necessary to see the confirmation of Newfound­ land 's O\mership rights. Tomorrow morning, Mr. Speaker, tomorrow morni:1g and I "'ould ask hon. mem .bers opposite .who are supposed, they tell us, to have the ear, to have the ear of the Federal Liberal Government,! ask them as interested Newfo~,dlanders, I ask them as elected representatives of thier people, use your good offices ; you are elected re ­ presentatives of the people. We are the government but you also have a responsibility.

You have a political connection. You have a political connection with the present Liberal gov er­ nment, you have a political connection. I have yet to see , Mr . Speaker, I have yet to see hon. members opposite get up ~d say about a federal proposal with respect to offshore That is wrong .• The closest I have sq~A ..

December 3, 1080 _ Tape No. 2625 RA MR. L BARRY: seen, and I was very happy to see it,was the member for ~willingate (Mr.W. Rowe) yesterday in supporting our proposition on the constitution· MR. NEARY: Taking scree canfort in that are you? MR. L. BARRY: Nhich requires me to ask, requires me to ask how could members opposite yesterday vote against the offshore and today propose an arnen~~ent supporting our position on the offshore? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. BARRY: \\That is happening here? Has schizophrenia set in? I thought, Mr.

Speaker, it was 1 quite clearly pointed out that our offshore mineral rights could be in jeopardy if the proposed constitutional amendments go through as proposed by the federal government, that even if there was a successful court case that the Prime Minister of Canada could bring about a national referendum to take our rights away, to strip us of our offshore mineral rights. And members opposite voted against our attempts to see this not happen. And now today, Mr. Speaker, they are trying to have their cake _and eat it too. Thev come out in support of a government resolution. MR.

STIRLING: A private member's resolution. MR. F.\AtffiY: A private member's resolution by a member who is a very important part of this government, Mr. Speaker! SOI1E HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: And not only that 1 a good Placentia bayrnan. SCME HON. ~!EMBERS: Right on. Right on. MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that hon. members opposite have spent too much time pushing or trying to push the Province into an early court case. Hon. sqqq

-----:~ December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2625 IB- 2 MR . B.~.RRY : members opposite should bear in mind that the timing of a court case can be quite import:ant , ~1r . Speaker , ar.d this government 1-1ill make a decision as to "'hen is the appropriate time to have a judicial resolution . Mr . speaker, the Province's legitimate claim to offshore resources received a tremendou~ increase in credibility , not legitimacy because the claim has been legitimate all along,but becaus e of the obfuscation and confusion and attempts to confound :-aised by hon . members opposite, I believe, l-1..r .

Speaker , th.:t there were a fe1..r people i01 CaJlada who questioned whether Ne~1foundlanC. had a legit imate cl.:im tD the offshore . I do not tnink too many in the Province questione ,d it, but there mig_ht h?.ve beer. some credibility problem across Canada . Mr . Speaker , ?rime Minister Clark, as he then was , solved that credibility problem once a'ld for · all. 11.N HON . ~1EMBE3 : MR . BARRY: Mr . Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (BUTT) : MR . BARRY: Never again , but he 1..ras. A.nd as he 1-'ill be ! tvho today, Oh, oh ! Order, please ! Order, please! Who today , Mr .

Speaker , 11ould deny that Newfoundland has a clear, moral , equitable and legal right to offshore resources? Maybe hon . members opposite, I do not know, they have not yet got up and put it on the lir-e that they did not believe that the proposals made by their compatriots in Otta,..,a 1..rere f.air . No1..r I challenge members, Mr . Speaker, as they speak to this resolution to let us know what they think about the proposals that: have been r:tade by the ::ederal government . Do they, Mr . Speaker, believe ~~at there has been a sincere expression o£ L'1tent to negotiate on the part of the rederal c;overnment.?

I ask hon . members opposite, members opposit~ .. please tell us , 7nnn

December 3, 1980 'i'ape No . 2625 IB -3 MR . BARRY : get up and tell yo~r constituents, do you believe that from what you have heard to date from your colleagues in the Liberal Pa rty in Otta;.;a ? Now , Mr. S?eaker, the member for Nind sor-Buchans (Mr. Fligh

t) asked ~·hat .is it that we intend to do ~ . NEARY : Nr . Speaker - (Inaudible) for another \'lhile. SOME EON . ~·ffi!'1BERS : Hear, hear ! nn1 ~· '• ;~·

Y . December 3, 1980 MR. BARRY: intend to do SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: Tape 2626 EC - 1 I will tell you one thing we Hear, hear! - and that is to ensure that the offshore Resolution will not be a giveaway, Mr.Speaker. That is one thing that we intend to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: And that is why I said, Mr. Speaker, it will remain unsettled until hell freezes over if we have to have a giveaway. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Hear, hear! Oh, oh! If we have to roll over, play dead - Order, please!. MR.

BJI.RRY: - and accept the few tidbits, the few scraps thrown by the Liberal Government in Ottawa, then, Mr. Speaker, we will all be able to play ice hockey in Hades. MR. SPEAKER: clue up. MR. BARRY: The hon. member has one minute to One minute to go. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, more than enough time. Now, Mr. Speaker, our position is there. We will not accept anything less than a substantial degree of control with respect to the offshore that sees us treated in the same way as resources on land are treated. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Now, let us have han. members get up and say that.

Let us have them tell the Prime Minister of Canada that the offshore resource must be treated the same as though it were on land. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, let hon. members opposite get up and say that this Province should not have to be dragged through the courts like a common criminal. ?!In?

.,_ December 3, 1980 Tape 2626 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Let hon. members get up and say that, Mr. Speaker, in order to establish our legitimate rights. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: I am getting the word that it is all over, Mr. Speaker, and it is disappointing, because I was really about to tell them what we are going to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER {Butt): Order, please! MR. BARRY: Fortunately, Mr. Speaker, on the main part of this Resolution, I will have another opportunity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: Thank you very much.

Hear, hear! 'I'he hon. the member for Grand Bank. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise to support the amendment to the Resolution brought in by my friend and colleague from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight). MR. CARTER: Sit down! Sit down! MR. THOMS: The hon. the member, the scion for St. John's North (Mr. Carter),will have his opportunity. Mr. Speaker, I must say I was a little disappointed in my friend from Placentia. I expected a more rousing speech from him. He usually gives an excellent speech in the House of Assembly.

I certainly hope he is not going to disappoint me when he concludes the debate on this Resolution; throw cway your notes and give us a good speech. Mr. Speaker, the Sheik from Mount Scio had his few words to say on this amendment. He started off by saying, 'Let us have no political 7nn':l

December 3, 1980 MR. THOHS: AN HON. MEMBER: Tape 2626 posturing. ' Right. EC - 3 MR. THOMS: That is something like the kettle calling the pot black, or whatever the expression is. This administration, in connection not only with the offshore oil and gas question, but on many, many other questions, all they do is indulge in political posturing. As a matter of fact, all that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) did this afternoon was politically posture. Mr. Speaker, for the record - and I am not accepting. I was not a member of this House prior to June 18th, 1979. MR.

STAGG: You were defeated on Black Friday. MR. THOMS: That is another comment that can be analogous to the kettle calling the-pot black. Because if I am not mistaken, the hon. member, himsel f, could not get re-elected in 1975. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: Now, let him make those comments, Mr. Speaker, after the next election when he is not going to get elected again in Stephenville. He will hold a record for being defeated and elected and defeated. Mr. Speaker, any political posturing in connection with this Resolution and with these matters, most of it is done by the present administration.

We saw again with the Minister of Mines and Energy a backward step, not the forward step that we were promised in June, 1979, not the promise that was made to deceive the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: This government is forever taking one step forward and eighteen steps backwards. 7 r1 n 1,

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2627 SD - 1 SO~£ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. --. MR. L. THOMS: But, Mr. Speaker, let the record show that since I have been elected to this House in June, 1979 - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. L. THOMS: - let the record show that I have supported Newfoundland's claim to ownership and control of offshore oil and gas. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. THOMS: I have said it over and over and over and over. MR. FLIGHT: As we all have. MR.

THOMS: It must be getting embarrassing to this administration that \le are not at odds with them on this particular question: We own and we should control the offshore oil resources. Mr. Speaker, you know, I do not care whether we have a good court case or not~ I just do not care whether we have a good court case or not.

From the point of view that I believe that even if we have the worst co1..0.rt case in the world, even if we have absolutely no chance of winning a court case in the Supreme Court of Newfoundland, the Appeal Court of Newfoundland, Supreme Court of Canada, even if we have no chance of winning it, I do not think we should have to go there; I think that we should have the ownership, we should have 100 per,cent maximum benefits from offshore oil and gas and that we should have the principil control over that resource. Newfoundland deserves it, Newfoundlanders deserve whatever is to come from the offshore oil and gas.

And,Mr. s~ea~Rr - :1R . \".1. '~AR.S F..hLL : Why did the hon. member vote against us yesterday. SOME HON. ME~1Bf:n'3 · Oh, oh . MR. STIRLING: We were talking about the patriation of the Constitution yesterday. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh . ?nne;

December 3, 1980 Tape ~o. 2627 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, ,Please! MR. L. ·rHDr1S: I think it was quite a different issue yesterday, quite a different issue yesterday. It is not going to be the last time that I am going to vote against this government of this Province,but I believe, and,like I say, let the record show that I am in full agreement that this Province should have ownership and control over offshore oil and gas. There has been a lot said, Mr. Speaker, about this and I have made my views known to my federal minister, to my federal member of what my position is. MR. STAGG: MR. L. THOMS: member.

If he ever became Your federal member is John Crosbie. John Crosbie will never be my MR. STAGG: If you do not live in your district (incudijle) . MR. THOMS: the district . MR. HANCOCK: tied up. HR. THOMS: - my member I would move out of I would too only I have too much And if you are talking about where I reside, where I live, I happen to live in the district of a man that I have a great deal of admiration for and that is the former Minister of Fisheries, Mr. McGrath. I happen to be in his district,not Mr. Crosbie's district. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, as I said, I do not believe we should have to go through a court case, I believe it is unnecessary. I will use whatever influence I have on the Liberal Party that is in power in Ottawa, which is not very much,mind you, but I will use it to see that Newfoundland gets the best oossible deal - AN HON. MEMBER: ~ell them that. MR. THOMS: Yes, I have told them that. I have told Mr. Rompkey that, I have told ~r. Simmons that, I have 711nR

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2627 SD - 3 11R. L . TnOMS : Mr. Tobin that, I have told Mr. Rooney that, I have told Mr. Baker that, I have told them all. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: I believe they want what is best for Newfoundland as well. I believe that every one of the~ •.va'1t=' what is best for Newfoundland just like everyboG.y .i~ this House wants what .is best for Newfoundland. 711n7

December 3, 1980 MR. THOMS: your face. MR. MARSHALL: MR. THOMS: Tape No. 2628 GH-1 Do not put that puzzled look on Your actions say the opposite. Of course ·;:he actions do not say the opposite, of course not. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: It seems we have a private conver- sation going on down helow and the Chair is having a great difficul~· to hear. SOME HON. ~~ERS: MR. MOORES: HR. MORGAN: MR. THOMS: The hon. member for Grand Bank. Hear, hear! In other words, shut up. You are lowering the level of debate. Mr.

Speaker, I would like for someoody on the other side - there are lots of questions, though, that one can ask about the offshore oil and gas. The fishermen in my district are concerned. They are concerned if there is a blowout and oil is pumped into the ocean at the rate of 15,000 gallons a minute or something ~ad-awful like that. They are wondering what is going to happen to the fishery in this Province. The fish companies are concerned about what is going to happen if their diesel mechanics and other skilled workers are taken out of the fishery to go into the oil industry.

They are concerned if it is decided that a pipeline is to be laid on the floor of the sea. They are concerned about what can happen when an iceberg which can scour some twenty-one feet, some twenty-one feet, what will happen if there is a break in that pipeline. They may be chances that this Province is going to have to take, but I think that every possible step should be taken to make sure that something like this does not happen and to try to ease the concerns of the fishermen of this Province. As I understand it,the fishery in Scotland has suffered greatly, has suffered greatly. I 7 r1 n A

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2628 GH-2 MR. THOMS: gather this irom the delegation that went to Scotland recently to look at the effect of oil and gas on the fisheries. It bothers me that they can report back that there is not the right kind of concern in London about the Scottish fishery. We may not always have that exemplary Minister of Fisheries, Mr. LeBlanc, in Ottawa who will show the concern to the fisheries that he shows, that he shows.

Maybe Ottawa will not show this concern for the Newfoundland fishery that it deserves all the time, and I think that the principal control, ii for no other reason than that reason, should be in the hands of this Province. I hope that this Province can show the maturity to handle control of the offshore oil and gas. The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), Mr. Speaker, referred to the First Ministers' Conference that was on television.

I saw the lack of maturity on the part of the Premier of this Province and a good many other premiers across this country at that Conference, and I question whether the ability is in the front seats of this administration to handle the control of offshore oil and gas. I asked a question and I would like to get an answer to it. If the Federal Government, if Mr. Trudeau, as I believe he should, turned over the ownership and c9ntrol of the offshore oil and gas to Newfoundland tomorrow, would Newfoundland be able to administer the development of that offshore resource? Jili:O

.., December 3, 1980 Tape 2629 MB - 1 HR. L. THOHS: Could we ao it or would we have to turn around and ask Ottawa to help us out? Now, that would be a little bit embarrassing too if that had to happen.

Nobody has answered that question of whether or not this Province has the capability I know that the present a~~inistration does not have the competence 1 but maybe we can go beyond the front benches of this administration, maybe the oil directorate, maybe that haven for defeated T.oc-v hacks, maybe that haven, this oil directorate, the Petroleum Directorate; I happen to have been invited down aboard of a rig , and I think that every member of this Betroleurn nic-ectorate who walked on board was a defeated Tory candidate or somebody who worked in the campaign for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) in the Mount Scio district. 1·-IR. NEARY : Looking for a job,no doubt. MR. L. THOMS: They have all been placed very nicely and very neatly into nice, comfortable jobs. AN HON. MEMBER: --- MR. NEARY: He has to include the federal ones yet. (Inaudible) the defeated candidate trying to get a job cooking for the offshore. MR. L. THa-IS: And then you wonder why I quest~on the competency of the Petroleum Directorate in this Province or the front benches of this administration. AN HON. HE!1BER: (Inaudible) HR. L. THOMS: If the cap fits the minister can wear it. Mr.

Speaker, the resolution that was brought in by the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson),one of the ~·7hereas clauses, "WHEREAS the revenues, employment and industrial benefits which will result from offshore develop- ment will flow to the Province only if its ownership and control are confirmed;" Mr. Speaker, that could be challenged but I am not going to sneak out from under supporting this resolution just to vote against it because of the confusion 7 n 1 n

; December 3, 1980 Ta!?e 2629 MB - 2 MR . L. THO!•lS: that i s obviously in the mind of the person 1o1ho drafted ti1is resolution . This t..:hereas c~ause brings to mind the odious policy of the pre sent admin .istration. The one provision in the constitutional proposals that I certainly have no hesitation whatsoever without reclly having to give it a great deal of thought supporting is the mobility clause.

I spoke the other day in connection with the Cons.titution and I spoke about the mobilit y clause and I said at that time, and I 1vi ll say it again, taat I do not wanl: this administrat ion, I do not tvant the adminis­ tration in Ottawa, Quebec City, Victoria or any place in this nation telling me 1-1here I can work and where I can live . If we took it to its logical conclusion there would be member;s .who probably · would not be sitting in this House of Asse!llbly today, there are members v7ho wo:rld not be sitting in ~,is Eouse of ~ssembly .

Now, I war.t to see as many Newfoundlanders as possible working in the oil i:tdu s try i:1 this Province . ::: 1-1ant for Ne• . .;foundland no di!:ferent f=om tvbat the Minister of l1ines and Energy (~lr . Barry) or the member from Placentia (Mr . Patte.rson) •11ancs 1 no~~ing any different . 7 I I 1 1

Dece.rnb.:r 3, 1980 Ta!.Je No. 2630 DW - 1 )!R . L. THOMS : !-lr . Speaker , I will predict - \ve have heard a lot abcut a court case, we are hearing a lot about otvnership, we are hearing a lot about the local preference ?olicy - and ~tr . Speaker, I will predict that this Premier of the Province, that the prese.'lt r-1inister of ~!ines and Energy (Mr . Barry) , t:,.at this administration r..;ill end up in a political settle - ment . They will end up with a p0litical settlernent . This matte .r will not go te court , ~r . Speaker , it will not <JO te court . SONE HON . ME!'1BERS : Sy leave . By leave . MR . L.

THOMS : Is my time up , Mr . Speaker? That was a short five minutes . ~ - SPE.llo.KE:R (Baird ) : The member's tL~e is up . I assume you have your concluding remarks . ~R . L . THOMS : I \oli .ll con clude, :.1r. Speaker , by predicting that this Pre~er and this administration and the Minister of ~1ines and E:-~ergy .hat t.lotis Province will end up with a political settlement and one that will benefit every single, solitary person in this Province. We will not have to go to court . Ne will not have to go to court a.:1d I do not think we should have to go to court .

As I said,we own the resource , we deserve the resource and I do not care vlhat the legal case is or is not . 1 co not care! S0!1E HON . MEt'1BERS : Hear, h.:;ar! MR. L . THOMS : We own ~t, we deserve to have it and Prime Minister Trudeau should give it to us . That is the way I feel about this resolution and this Province . Tnank yoc very ~uch, Mr . Speaker . 50~1E RON . ~tla~ERS : Hear , hear ! MR. SPEAKER : The hen . Minister of Labcur and 1-lal 'l?Ower . SOME RON . :<!E~JBERS : Hear , hear ! 7il1?

December 3, 19 8,0 Tape No. 2630 DW - 2 MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, as I did in my last speech , I reques ·t that hon. members opposite observe the re1les of the House so that I can continue with my remarks as we will give opportunity to all hon. members who wish to speak. Now, Mr. Speaker, just to have a look at what the last hon. member spoke about and get that out of the way quickly, ·1e stood up and he supported our claim, he spoke for t¥renty minutes and he said nothing and we gave him leave to continue to say nothing. The one thing that he did have to say was that he was against our mobility clause.

He is against our mobility clause. Now, Mr. Speaker, that concludes the total speech of the hon. member opposite, that concludes the total speech of the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms). SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! MR. J. DINN: So, Mr. Speaker, I will get on with number one, the amendment to the resolution. And basic­ ally what the amendment to the resolution,just to repeat for the record is: 'Therefore

Be It Resolved that this hon. House supports this ?rovince's historic, moral and legal clai~ To own and Control its offshore mineral resources.' And what was left out? They do not want to support the Conservative administration in its effort to preserve and they do not want to be political. YI.R. L . THOMS : Surprise! Surprise! MR. J. DINN: So, Mr. Speaker, I will not be political. What I will do is I will, first of all, on the one point that the hon. member for Grand Bank attacked,which was the mobility rights, I will say my normal few words on the mobility rights.

Hon. members will remember,of course, the CBC programme they had on the other night where a team from CBC went out and interviewed people on the rigs and 7 n 1 ~

December 3, 1980 Tape No . 2630 DW - 3 ~m . J. DINN : the y saw how happy they were, how intere sted they were in the work they were doinq. Th ey also found people from many areas of the Province . I believe, one was from Carbonear and the other one "'as from the hon . member =or St . Mary's - The Capes district (~ . Hancock}, ;.;ho continues to speak agai:lst mobility rights in this Province . .a..r."1C, 7rt1 L

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2631 IB-1 MR. DINN: l1r. Speaker, if they had checked at the peak of the season in August they would have found 900 happy Newfoundlanders doing their job. No'", Mr. Speaker, the attack by han. members opposite on mobility, one of the attacks is why do we not train our Newfoundlanders so that they can compete and get the jobs. Well, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, on the rigs offshore there is no training programme involved.

What you have to do is you go on the rigs as a roustabout and roughneck and you work your way up through the system to a point where you get a job on the drilling platform and you become a driller,and from there on you can move into the administrative side of it where you become the operations manager. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is how it is done. It is experience on the rig.

That is why the criteria is and that is what we started out 1vith when we asked Newfoundlanders from all over the Province to write their names in, give us an indication of their experience so that we could talk to the oil companies and make sure that they got preference in those jobs because they were experienced in doing those jobs. We also I r1r. Speaker, through co-operation with these oil companies,got people on there as trainees.

In other words,they went on,if it was their first year or if they had no particular experience on the rigs,we got them on thirty or forty or fifty at a time, we got them on to get some training so that they could go on, take over the jobs as roustabouts and roughnecks and so on and so that they could work their way up. And I saw a gentleman on there the other night who was so happy that he was on the oil rigs and talked about how he thought he would illake a career out of the opportunity that was given him due to our mobility rights in the offshore. Now, Mr.

Speaker, whe~ this started, when our regulations were approved and when this started 7 ii 1 c:;

December 3, 1980 Tape No. 2631 IB-2 .MR. DINN: we met with the oil companies. I remember particularly the first group of companies that came in and the first rig that we got Newfoun~l.anders on which was the Discover Seven Seas and we set up and I believe we met them in the Cabinet room upstairs and there were gentlemen there from Texeco and several of the oil companies. We met with them upstairs in the Cabinet room-or downetairs in the Cabinet room and, Mr.

Speaker, the litany of reasons and excuses why they could not employ Newfoundlanders on the rigs and the offshore was so long that one would think that there was nobody could do these jobs only the people who were on there. Well, ~1r. Speaker, we talked about the specific positions and we went down through the list of positions, the roustabouts and the roughnecks and the me$smen and the cooks and we went through a list and we went through th2 number of nea?le who were on or qoing to come ir. on the Discover Seven Seas and we felt at the time that we could get at least ninety-eight replacements on that ship.

Well, Hr. Speaker, we talked about it with them. They complained bitterly because what they really want, what they would really love to have would be they would love to have a crew on a rig and that rig could move anywhere in the world and they would not have to change or they would not have to do anything. So, Mr. Speaker, we went through the different categories and we talked and \>Te listened, and we were very concerned because of the possibilities that the oil companies were presenting to us of the fact that we did not have the experience and