Manitoba Hansard — 16 December 1994 (Sitting 12, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-12

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Sixth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourabk Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLIV No. 11- 10 a.m., Friday, December 16, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members. Constituencies and Political Afl"'iliation Nmu.c !daaimm~;J: ASHTON, Steve Thompson BARRETT, Becky Wellington CERR.U, Marianne Radisson CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan CUMMINGS, Olen, Hon. Ste. Rose DACQUA Y, Louise Seine River DERK.ACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DEWAR, Gregory Selki.rlc DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur- Virden DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Hauy, Hon. Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Clif Interlake EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East FD...MON, Gary, Hon.

Tuxedo FINDLAY, Olen, Hon. Springfield FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley OAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface OD..LESHAMMER. Harold, Hon. Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Oescentwood HEL WER, Edward Oirnli lflCKES, George Point Douglas KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert MACKINTOSH, Oord St. Johns MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows McAlPINE, Oeuy Sturgeon Creek McCORMICK, Nonna Osborne McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Alsiniboia MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East ORCHARD, Donald, Hon.

Pembina PALUSTER, Brian Portage ia Prairie PENNER, Jack Emerson PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK. Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet REID, Daryl Transcona REIMER. Jack Niakwa RENDER, Shirley St. Vital ROBINSON, Eric Rupert Ill and ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone JtOSE, Bob Turtle Mountain SANTOS, Conrad Broadway SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirldield Part SVEINSON, Ben La V erendrye VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River Vacant River Heights Vacant Flin Flon &m NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. Lib. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. NDP Lib. P.C. Lib. P.C. NDP Lib. Lib.

NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP P.C. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP

563 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, December 16,1994 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lamen Laxdal, Barbara Korol, Janina Rekrut and others urging the Minister responsible for Education (Mr. Manness) to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of L. Denis, T. McNeill, R. Schaubroeck and others urging the Minister of Education (Mr.

Manness) to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Mike Mauws, Kenn McDonald, Betty Reimche and others urging the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Olive D. Dawson, Miles Jones, Jay Sullivan and others urging the Minister of Education (Mr.

Manness) to coosider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. Handi- Transit Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I beg to present the petition of Louise Maurukis, Katherine Hlady, Richard Gouthro and others urging the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) to consider working with the City of Winnipeg and the disabled to develop a long-term plan to maintain Handi-Transit service and ensure that disabled Manitobans will continue to have access to Handi- Transit service. Physical Education in Schools Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of M. Gisiger, M. Bjornson, M. Kowall and others urging the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. *

(1005) READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Canada Post-Unsolicited Mail Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and it complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS each year over four billion advertisements and flyers are mailed to Canadian households by Canada Post alone; and

WHEREAS the number of trees used to produce this vast quantity of unwanted advertising is substantial; and

WHEREAS the amount of junk mail has doubled in the past five years,· and

WHEREAS much of this advertising material is non-recyclable and ends up in landfills costing municipalities millions of dollars each year; and

WHEREAS repeated requests from consumers to have Canada Post not deliver junk mail at their homes have been denied; and

WHEREAS if it was mandatory that advertisers and distributors of unsolicited mail and flyers

564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 use only recycled material in all unsolicited mail and flyers delivered by Canada Post, this material could be recycled. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the federal minister responsible for Canada Post to consider bringing in legislation requiring all unsolicited mail and flyers to use recycled materials. Physical Education in Schools Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the hmourable n:axi>er (Mr. Lamoureux). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and it complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Oerk (Wllllam Remnant): The petition of the tmdersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: TIIAT in July 1994, the Minister of Education introduced an action plan entitled Renewing Education: New Directions; 1HAT this report will make physical education an optional course in Grades 9 to 12; 1HAT the physical education curriculum should be regularly reviewed to ~ that it meets the needs of students; 1HATthe govemnmt is failing to recognize the benefits of physical education such as improved physical fitness, more active lifestyles, health promotion, self-discipline, skill development, stress reduction, sticngthened peer relationships, weight regulation, stronger bones, reduced risk of health diseases and improved self-confidence.

WHEREFORE your petitioners hwnbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for Education to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. N.UN~TERIALSTATEMENTSAND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table two reports: the Quarterly Financial Report for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, and the Statement as to the Fidelity Bonds on deposit with the Minister of Finance, pursuant to Olapter 230 of The Public Officers Act. Hon. Rosemary V odrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council Annual Report 1993-94. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year 1993-94, as well as the first two quarterly reports for this year. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1993-94 Annual Report for the Department of Environment. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the 1993 calendar year report for the Residential Tenancies Branch and the Residential Tenancies Commission. Social Assistance Information-sharing Agreement Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House, and I have copies. Today I have the pleasure of announcing that we have signed an information-sharing agreement with Saskatchewan. This agreement enables Manitoba and Saskatchewan to identify where social assistance payments may have been duplicated between the two provinces. Mr.

Speaker, the vast majority of welfare recipients are honest people with a genuine need

December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 565 for assistance. Unfortunately, there are some individuals who are abusing this system, and their abuse is taking money away from needy families. With this new information-sharing agreement in place, our governments will be able to ensure social assistance money goes to those who need it most. 1be agreement will help us detect those people who are not following the rules and are unlawfully taking mmey away from a valuable social program. Under the agreement, computer files will be compared in order to identify potential cases of abuse.

All of the information will be kept confidential, and it will be used only for investigations. Manitoba has a similar agreement in place with British Columbia, and we are working on similar arrangements with Alberta, Ontario and the Yukon. We all share the same goal: to ensure people who need social assistance receive it. We can help to achieve this by putting a stop to cases where welfare is being abused. Welfare fraud is a crime. It takes resources away from vulnerable people in our comnnmities and it will not be tolerated Mr.

Speaker, this new agreement complements other initiatives Ulldcrway to ensure welfare dollars are spent responsibly. We have created a unit to investigate welfare abuse, and we have initiated a verification process that regularly matches client information with Unemployment Insurance, Vital Statistics and Revenue Canada. We have also introduced a telephone line for reporting fraud. The welfare fraud line was announced on June 29, 1994. As ofNovcmber 18, 1994, 2,179 calls have been received. Of these, 1,583 calls were forwarded to field staff and they are now being dealt with.

In fact, corrective action has already taken place in 188 of those cases. It is estimated that the savings from these cases alone is about $827,000. Mr. Speaker, now those dollars can be used to help other people who require assistance. I believe strongly that we must support and protect the most vulnerable in our society while ensuring the accountability in our assistance program. This new agreement with Saskatchewan and our other initiatives will help us achieve this goal. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, we thank the minister for her statement this morning.

It is not news to us, of course. We knew this government was entering agreements with other provinces, and I think this is probably the third or fomth province that they have entered into agreement or bad negotiations with. •

(1010) Unfortunately, some of the minister's rlletoric is a little excessive. She talks about redirecting money to people in need when in fact none of the money will be redirected to people on social assistance, and the same with the welfare fraud line. No me can object to taxpayers' money being saved, but the mooey that is saved will not go to those people in need. It will just be less money put out by her government's department. If this government really wanted to save money it would cancel the World'orce 2000 program with grants to corporations and particularly their cotparate Tmy friends.

At the same time this government is not doing anything to help low income people. In fact, they have cut back oo programs. They have announced the Taking Charge! program which will not get anybody off social assistance. They have no goals as to how many people will be employed as a result of the Taking Charge! program. They have closed two Human Resources Opportunity Centres, and they are downsizing the Single Parent Job Access Program. So we are disappointed that this government is targeting low-income people, and in many cases, very unfairly.

I am told by people in the comtDJmhy that once there is an allegation of fraud, people's benefits are cut off. In other words, they are guilty until proven innocent, which would not happen anywhere else in the justice system in Canada but does happen in Manitoba under this government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, again we have further evidence that this government is picking on the most disadvantaged and vulnerable of Manitoba's citizens. We continue to learn from this minister about the amount of mooey saved by these draconian measures but never anything about the cost of pursuing them We have evidence that we are finding other kinds of criminal activity going unchecked. We learned yesteiday of the Prime Oil situation in which a person who has cost the taxpayers $300,000 is in fact fined $400.

We also know that there are $14 million in unclaimed retail sales tax still uncollected. If we are stewaiding the resources of the citizens of Manitoba we might want to direct our energy and attention in other directions. Thank you. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD CNRail Job Relocations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Over the last number of years, in fact in 1988, the Plmlier wrote to rail workers indicating that he would stand up for them in terms of their jobs being relocated to other locations.

As the Premier knows, CN railway is planning to relocate 150 jobs out of the city of Winnipeg to Edmonton dealing with the rail Traffic Control Centre presently located here in the city of Winnipeg. These are very good jobs in our connnnnity. They are very important to our transportation hub objective which was stated in the Speech from the Throne. I would like to ask the Premier: What is the position of the provincial government to stop this relocation of these jobs in the running trades area and the conttol area? What action has the provincial government taken? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, the member really raises a very, very serious issue with regard to survival of CN as a supplier of rail services in this country. We know that CN and CP have been going through some very difficult economic times. They are in, I guess we will call it a phased process of trying to adjust to the reality of the world we live in. They have to create a level of employment consistent with their income. They are making adjustments. New technology is coming. They have to be competitive.

They have to organize themselves so they can supply their shipper with value-added services, with cost-effective services. Mr. Speaker, we have aggressively gone after CN to have a customer service centre here, which will add initially some 240 jobs to the city of Winnipeg, again very high-value jobs and up to 400 in the future. 'Ihe process of that, yes, there are adjustnrnts and there are adaptations, but that is going on throughout society. The fact that CN and CP lost $2 billion in the last five years in eastern Canada is a serious matter.

The federal minister has been very, very straightforward in saying that they must get their costs in Older. Mr. Speaker, I am sony that there are reallocations of staff going on, but we have gone out very aggressively to bring more jobs in the CN sector here to the province of Manitoba. There are over 4,000 jobs in CN in Winnipeg, a very major employer here. We have the second highest employment of any location in Canada, secood only to Montreal.

We are way, way ahead of Edmonton, and our discussions with CN would indicate that any downsizing adjustment will leave us in a very positive position relative to any of the other locations. We cannot deny that they nmst go through an adjustmmt of their world'orce to react to the reality of today, but we have new high-tech jobs in CN coming to Winnipeg because of our aggressive attitude. • (1015) -

December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 567 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the minister indicate that he was opposed to the relocation of these jobs to Edmonton. We are talking about relocation of jobs from Winnipeg to &boonton, and, yes, we have a call centre, but we want to control trains across Canada from Winnipeg as well as controlling the calls in the centre. To us it is not an either/or. We have lost jobs; we have had relocation of the real estate branch in CN to Edmonton; we have lost jobs in the legal branch; we have lost commmrications and signals and other nmning trades jobs.

The issue is relocation. Where are these jobs going to be located? Are we going to control the trains in Winnipeg from Thunder Bay to the west coast or are those jobs going to be relocated to Edmonton? I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), are we opposed to these jobs being relocated by the fi::deral Crown corporation, and what action are we ta1cing to prevent them from being relocated to another community? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, wewouldlovetobe able to stand up and say we will fight every initiative of a Crown corporation or a business to adapt themselves to the reality in which we live, but we cannot. We have to allow them to adjust and adapt so that they can survive economically rather than live on the taxpayer, which is a no-no in the future, absolutely. All governments realize we IIWst get our economic house in order, as do companies. They IIWst be able to supply ~ servia:s; they IIWst be able to survive. It is very important to us that CN does survive.

The federal government has said no to the CP offer, they have said no to the merger of CN and CP, and that is probably very good news because that means that they are looking at a way to get CN to survive as an entity, supplying service to shippers across this country. But, Mr. Speaker, that member absolutely refuses to recognize--be says, we should be worried about 150 jobs. We have brought 240; that is plus 90 jobs, in an industry that is downsizing by- 10,000 jobs. I would think he would congratulate us for the fact that we have positive activities happening in Manitoba, in CN Rail, as opposed to negative. Mr.

Doer: Mr. Speaker, nobody takes joy in outlining the numbers of jobs we have lost in CN, not through downsizing, but relocation from Winnipeg primarily to Edmonton. This is the issue. I am extremely disappointed that the Premier (Mr. Filmn) would have a minister, in essence in complicity, with saying that it is more cost effective to have jobs in Edmonton than in Winnipeg. Are we saying that in CN's changes in their operations, it is more cost-effective to relocate jobs to Edmonton than keeping them in Winnipeg? If that is the case, we totally disagree with the Conservative government.

We are asking this Conservative government to stand up for this branch to stay in Winnipeg, to stay in Manitoba because we are a better location for safety, we are a better location for cost-effectiveness, and it makes sense not only for CN but for Manitoba to keep these jobs in our province. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I find it really interesting to have all of these empty words being spoken by the Leader of the Opposition, when he was a part of a government that forced the railways to move traffic out of Manitoba and around Manitoba and forced the railways to downsize more than they ever had in their history in Manitoba because he insisted on raising the diesellocomJtive fuel tax to the highest in the country. I remember challenging Howard Pawley and saying, this is absolute economic stupidity, you are going to force the railways to stop using the traffic through Manitoba.

He said, what are they going to do, are they going to tear up the tracks. No, they did not tear up the tracks. They bought railways in the States, and they moved all the traffic around Manitoba for years under New

568 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 Democrats. That destroyed more jobs than any other move that has takm place in recent history in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, what we are doing is saying to the railroads, if you are going to be more efficient then we want to be a part of your plans for greater efficiency. They centralized nine different customer service locations into one in Manitoba. Even after you compute the jobs that he is talking about, we are net gainers of jobs with CN, 90 additiaoal jobs. That is the bottom line and that is sound economics, not the stupid economics that we have from New Democrats. •

(1020) Red River Community College President's Contract Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. Under Freedom of InfoiiDation I have received the coottact of the president of Red River College which includes a base salary of $90,000 and a $20,000 perfOIIDance bonus.

At a time when secretaries and staff at Red River College have been clawed back for two years by this govemmcnt, when over $7 million has been withdrawn from the community college sector by this govenmntt, when comses have been reduced and when waiting lists grow, and when there is no mooey in this province for nurses, social WOikcrs or child care wOikcrs, how does the minister justify this conttact made by his appointed board for a thinly disguised 22 percent increase in the president's salary? Hon. Oaytoo Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, the NDP are consistently following their argument against govemance, where indeed we gave greater freedom to the commmity to lead decision making with respect to the college efforts. So the question is in keeping with the union and their leadership at the colleges, of course, who were so opposed to it. The govemment has sanctioned the $90,000 base salary, but nme of the govemment's funds are to be used for any portion of the bonus money that is contained therein within the contract. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, I beg the question of where that nmey is coming from.

I would like the minister to explain why this performance bonus is to be paid for precisely the activities for which the president was hired and which are listed in his job description: financial performance and the development of a strategic plan. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, in spite of the fact that the govemment provided an increase to communi1y colleges last year in the realm of 3.3 pero:ot, having just looked at the revenues that are coming to community colleges, certainly the revenue base increased at a significantly higher rate than that.

Part of the agreement struck between the board and the president was to take into account that if the college was successful in bringing in additional revenues outside of govemment, some portion of that would be reflected back to the president and all his efforts. That, therefore, would be the source of funds towards any bonus. Ms. Friesen: I would like the minister to explain why performance bonuses are even being considered at all.

Red River College is supposed to be the beacon for TQM, for total quality management training in Manitoba, and the very thing that 13dwards Deming opposes is bonuses for managers in this way. Why is Red River involved in this kind .of thing? Mr. Manness: I guess Deming is not on the board of governors that we have at the colleges. An Hooourable Member: But Dr. Freedman is. Mr. Manness: I did not know that. Let me say that we feel that the base salary of $90,000 plus a bonus is very good measure and support of an individual who is bringing into the 21st Cc:otury a college that is going to have to lead -

December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 569 the way in many respects in the training of our youth and indeed all those who want to access post -secondary education. I know the members opposite are opposed to salaries in the colleges that somehow would reflect the importance that they obviously bring to society. Yet I do not see the members standing in any way drawing attmtion to the very high salaries that exist within the universities. They never stand m that basis.

We are talking about the president of the university, one whom we have given governance to, one that we are trying to remove from the coattails totally of government and somebody who is going to try and bring additional revenues from society as a whole. •

(1025) CNRail Job Relocations Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. As I listened to the earlier question from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) to the minister, what became clear I think was that the minister, I am sure, does not want, would never want those 150 jobs to leave this province but is suggesting that CN is making an economic decision which is forcing those jobs to leave this city. My questim, Mr.

Speaker, because last night as I listened to some of those who were going to be affected-! saw them on Media Reports-they made the arguornt quite persuasively and cogently that in fact it was not ecmon:iically wise to shift these jobs to Edmonton. So that begs the questim, has the minister sat down with those who are going to be affected, to listen to their arguornts, who know the business best, so that he then can make an argument to the CN board, arguing that it is economically wise to retain these jobs in Winnipeg?

Has he had that meeting or is he willing to have that meeting with those most directly affected to learn the economic arguments which are the ones that he is relying on here? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I think the Leader of the second opposition party really fails to recognise who owns CN. It is the Liberal government, the citizens of Canada, it is a Crown corporation, and I have had discussions with Minister Y ouog on this issue at different meetings, trying to get him to understand that we are a major transportation hub.

We must look after our rail services, our air services and our road setvices in and through this commmity. We have responded, as the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has indicated, very positively by reducing the locomotive diesel fuel tax from 13.6 cents a litre when we came into government to 6.3 cents a litre as of January 1, 1995. So we have reduced it by approximately half. That is a very positive indication to the railway that we want to have their jobs located here. We also want, desperately, that CN will survive as a unit to supply services to the commodities that are being moved across this country.

And that is the a:ntral issue and we cannot deny a company to make the appropriate adjustments, but we can try to be sure that in the end result we have a net increase in jobs which, I have indicated earlier to this House, is the situation with CN, and yet that member should surely realize that there are eight other comomnities across this country very mbappy that they lost jobs as CN centralized them here for cost-efficiency in Winnipeg, referring to the customer setvice centre. Mr.

Edwards: 1be minister uses the term "appropriate adjustments." What is clear from his answer and his prior answers is that he is not of the view that this is an inappropriate adjustment economically to move these jobs from Ed1llQIUon, so when be spoke to Minister Young I assume that he would not have tried to persuade him on the basis that it was economically wise to keep the jobs here. That is the argument that those who are involved in the business here are making, that it is economically appropriate to retain the jobs here.

My questim fur the minister: Has he made that economic argument?-which is one that presumably they would respond to. Has he made that economic argument? Mr. Speaker, I learned

570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 of it for the first tilre from those involved last night Has he made that economic argument to the minister, to the CN board? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, you can clearly see the political difference between this side of the House and that side of the House. They want to walk into every boardroom of every corporation in this country and manipulate the process. That is what they want to do. This government creates an opportunity for business to operate and ma.ke the decisions that are necessary to economically survive in a very competitive world.

That member may have some information he would like to bring to this House to indicate the truth of what he is saying, but. Mr. Speaker, I have talked to the man who is in charge, the Honourable Doug Young. That member for St. James knows that in the aircraft industry they are taking jobs out of Winnipeg. Has he talked to that M.P. over there? I do not think he has. This government does not want to manipulate business. We want business to be able to make decisions that are responsible and right. If he thinks that is wrong, he should talk to Mr. Young and tell him to fire whomever he should fire.

Is that the way he would govem? Mr. Edwards: This is the hypocrisy of the minister. On the one hand he says, oh, it is a federally drivm Crown C01p01'8lion, it is politically driven. Now he is saying, oh, no, we want to stay out of the boardrooms. What is it? Either he wants us to take a role or he does not. We should take a role. We should defend the economic viability of these jobs in Winnipeg. That is the nature of the questim. That is still the issue which the minister has not responded to. My final question for this minister. The minister made the linkage, as did the Premier (Mr.

Filmoo), to the 240 jobs that have come to this city and has indicated that this provincial government was involved in getting those jobs. Were these 150 jobs part of those discussions? He seems to be suggesting that there was a trade off, that we got 240, we lost 150. Were these 150 jobs raised as part of that trade off for the 240 jobs in those discussions? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, the short answer is no. •

(1030) CNRail Job Relocations Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, it is nice to see the Liberal Leader is now involved in this debate, since he said just last session that this Cluetien government would be different than the Mulroney government in dealing with CN Rail. Manitoba has lost over 3,000 railway jobs since this govermnent came to office. Now, in a very short tilre, rail traffic controllers and technicians will be transferred to Edmonton. In 1991, the Premier said that CN Rail promised him that there would be no fmther moves of CN personnel from Winnipeg to Edmonton.

I want to ask the Premier, can the Premier explain his failure to become involved in trying to save these rail traffic controller jobs when his support was requested in a letter that was sent to him November 24 to which the Premier failed to get involved at that time, or does he not care about railway jobs in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, it is because I care about railway jobs that we have the additional jobs in this province, for getting the natiooal call centtes for both CN and CP, because of the efforts of this government, unlike the government which the New Democrats ran in the 1980s that kichd out railway jobs in this province year after year by raising our railway diesel locomotive fuel taxes to the highest in the country and created a swing of jobs out of Manitoba that went on for year after year. That is the kind of policy that the New Demoaats would support, and those are the kinds of policies we reject. Mr. Reid: Mr.

Speaker, I am going to table a document, which is an arbitration case showing

December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 571 that CN Rail is under no obligation to transfer any of these jobs from Winnipeg. I want to ask the Premier, if this government is serious about keeping railway jobs in Manitoba, why did this government not make a presentatioo to the parliamentary task force that was in Winnipeg here oo December 1, two weeks ago, discussing the Liberal privatization plan for CN Rail? Why did this government not make a presentatioo at those hearings? Ron. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, as part of Team West, we sent a document to the federal minister saying that we want CN to survive as an entity aaoss this country. We want it to be competitive in offering the serviceMinterjectioo] Mr. Speaker, those members over there DDJst realize that is the central issue. Can CN survive? Will it be able to compete with truck, air and CP Rail in terms of supplying services across this countty? We have responded as a government, reducing taxes and attracting the call centre, the aJSt()Jll7 scmce caJtre for all of CN, Canada right here to Winnipeg.

I would like to table for that member's informatioo a graph that shows very clearly how successful Winnipeg is in maintaining jobs in CN here in Winnipeg. Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, CN is going to make some $250 millioo profit this year, yet they are cattinning to cut jobs in the province of Manitoba. It is better for this government to go down swinging than to be asleep in the stands like they have been oo this issue since they came to office.

Will the Premier indicate, the last time he met with CN Rail senior management, what plans CN has for Manitoba employment, since we now leam that as many as 800 more jobs are due to be lost in Manitoba? Has this government seen any success with the $4.5 millioo in fuel tax rebate that lhey gave to the railways to operate in this province? How many jobs have been saved- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1he hooourable member has put his question. Mr. Filmon: We have two call centres, both the national call centre for CN and for CP in this province. Crime Rate Prevention Programs Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr.

Speaker, my questioo is to the Minister of Justice. We have confirmed that robberies in Winnipeg are up 26 percent this year so far. Unfortunately, one-half of them are DDJggings. We now have an all-time record of over 11,000 victims of break and-enters, and, of course, the car theft epidemic cattinues-all on top of the worst crime levels in Canada last year. Manitobans are asking that some comprehensive crime prevention strategy, something effective, be extracted from this minister in the remaining months of her term.

M¥ question to the minister is: Would she do something effective and comprehensive to reduce aimc and start by meeting with the chief of police in Winnipeg to get officers back into our comDDJnities, onto the neighbowhood streets- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1he hooourable member has put his question. Ron. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the member continues to refer to statistics, but he has not told this House where those statistics come from. He just simply throws out numbers.

I would be very happy to hear from him exactly where those statistics have come from, what year and how he collected them But the important question is the question of aimc prevention and also how we are dealing with crime in the province of Manitoba. This govemnrnt has put forward a very comprehensive plan in dealing with criminal activity. Yes, it deals with prevention issues and it deals with

572 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 intervention issues. It also deals with consequences. It also deals with legislation. So we have a comp:rebensive plan which we are working on, but the member also knows that this requires commmity involvement as well. It requires the conmnmity to also participate. The commmity has indicated their willingness to do so. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the statistics are from the City of Winnipeg Police who are also alllllJX:d at the dramatic rise in armed robberies by youth. Youth Crime Rate Prevention Programs Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Would the minister tell Manitobans whatever happened to her provincial council on youth crime, her youth advisory council, her expanded mandate for youth justice committees, her wildemess camps and bundrcds of reccn•••n aiations from the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am very pleased that the member references the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence that this govemmcnt sponsored last December.

From that, reconnnendations were received which conmnmities have been able to look at and take advantage of, which schools have looked at and also which govenmxo.nt has looked at. I expect to be able to announce further details around the prevention councils. I am very happy, Mr. Speaker, pemaps the member missed it, to say that the wilderness camp has been operative for several months in this province as have our two more rigorous confinement youth institutions, our intensive custody unit which is in Brandon.

We have expanded the mandate of youth justice comnittees where those committees have asked to have their mandate expanded. We also have increased the number of youth justice committees as communities organize and decide that they would like to participate in the youth justice committees. As I said, we have a very comprehensive strategy. We are acting on that strategy with the comrmmity. Judicial System Youth Night Court Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): There are no wilderness camps in Manitoba, and I am glad to see the minister in this House did not mislead members by talking about boot camps, because there are none in this province. Considering the recent high-profile case, where a youth who stole a car on Christmas Eve, killing a person, did not get sentenced until Thanksgiving, that is 10 months later, Mr.

Speaker, would the minister confirm that despite her announcement, there is still no start-up date or agreement with the judiciaJy for the youth night court in which she advised the House what ilqlact this court, if it ever gets running, might have on the backlogs in the Youth Court? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As the member knows, certainly our institutions, particularly those for youth, have moved towards rigorous confinement. I have announced the details of that rigorous confinement.

There is no question that in Manitoba, when young people enter our institutions, they enter an institution of extremely rigorous confinement and consequences. It is not a holiday. In the matter of the night court announcement which came forward in the tbrone speech, the details of that announcement will be brought forward very shortly. 'lbe night court announce- · m:nt deals very specifically with youth because we recognize that young people must attend court. We would like to expand the number of opportunities for youth to attend court.

We would also like to see that they do not have to miss school in order to attend court and that their parents are provided the opportunity, encouraged

December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 573 to attend with their young person through the justice system. We want parents back involved in the justice system •

(1040) Asbestos Handling Guidelines Implementation Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I have a letter from the chairperson of the minister's advisory council on Workplace Safety and Health dated November 2 and attached to the guidelines for working with asbestos and asbestos operations and maintenance program, it was passed tmanimously by the minister's advisory colDlCil. 1bere was an expectation that there would be an implementation

schedule by November 11. I want to ask the minister why he is holding up this program Why, when it was passed in October by his advisory colDlCil, is it waiting co his desk? What is the holdup, and when are we going to see this program implememed? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): I can tell the member for Radisson, the matter is not on my desk at the current time. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister then to answer the question. 'Ihe rommittee has done its work. He has admonished this committee and been critical of them They have done their job.

What is the holdup, and when are we going to see the program implemented in schools so that people working in schools, teachers, other staff and studems, are going to be protected from exposure to asbestos? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, first of all, that matter is being reviewed by my staff in the Workplace Safety and Health departmem, their branch, for their comment, which I certainly appreciate. But I have to tell the honourable member, she comes here today and implies that somehow children and people in schools are at risk.

I can tell her that my departmem has been working for a number of years with school divisions on the asbestos issues. I can assure her I think reasonably today that her premise that there is great risk there toda~, that people are at an imminent risk, is not true, like so many of the things that she brings to this House. Ms. Cerilli: We have raised this issue before, and we know that there is asbestos in schools where it has not been identified. We need a maintenance program. Custodial staff need to be trained Other provinces have this.

I want to ask the minister, when can we expect that we are going to have these guidelines implerxrntcrl7 His own departJI:rnt has worked for a year with the committee to prepare them; it was passed- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 'Ihe honourable member has put her question. Mr. Pramik: Mr. Speaker, the Workplace Safety and Health Branch has been working with schools even long before this administration came into power to deal with asbestos issues in schools.

I remember, if my memmy serves me correctly, I know the member came here once before with this issue and a particular issue of asbestos in which her information was less than accurate with respect to a school division. I will tell her that the purpose of the protocol came as a result of the experience that we have teamed or garnered over the last number of years in dealing with this issue in schools, and we expect to have it in place shortly, but that does not mean that we have not been working in this area co a continual basis, going back for many years, even prior to this administration.

Environmental Protection Recycling Plants Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment

574 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 The oogoing cleanup at Prime Motor Oils raises the question of what we are doing to prevent further environmental catastrophes. Pedlaps the worst disaster in Winnipeg in recent years was the still that blew up at Solvit a rew years ago. As these recycling solvent stills are becoming more common, what is the minister's departllrnt doing to msure that we prevent further disasters? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister ~ Environment): Mr. Speaker, that is a very leading question.

I am sure I will not have enough time to respond in all of the areas that we have ~involved in, but I think the member would have to acknowledge that as 1be Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act has been implemented in conjunction with the regulations under the 1be Environment Act, we have seen an extreme growth in the amount of confidence that we have in regulatory and process requirements that we put on all of our waste generators and handlers.

The very fact that we have more recycling, and that we have more conttol by manifest and by control of all movement through the trucking regulations of these materials, gives us a IIIJCh better handle on where the materials are and how they are being handled. There are about 4,000 generators of this material across the province, and we have undertaken in the last number of years to make sure we have licensing and manifest requirements on each of those operations. Ms. McCormick: Mr.

Speaker, given that the Fire Comnissim:r's 1eport has expressed concems that there are still many stills operating without approval, and there are no guidelines for the use of these stills which the minister's department can enfoiCe, when can we expect some guidelines for the operation of the solvent distillation devices so that we can protect Manitobans from a further environmental disaster? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, I do not suppose the member meant it this way, but the inflection of her question certainly would appear to be that she thinks there are some impending disasters out there but which we are not in fact dealing with.

Nun:i>er ooe, where materials of flammable and combustible nature are being handled, unless someme is doing it in a clandestine or inappropriate manner and hiding it in some way from the Department of Environment, they are required and expected to manage them and are inspected to make sure that they are within the guidelines of both Workplace Safety and Health and the Department of Environment In fact, that is one of the things where we have done a coosiderable amJUDt of work in the last number of years to make sure that those two departments partirularly co-ordinate their efforts so that there is no possibility of some inspection requirements falling between the cracks.

Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, the minister has used the number, 4,000 licensed generators. I would be interested in knowing from the minister: How many of these generators in fact have on-site recovery facilities and how many of these are licensed? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, what I said was, there are 4,000 operators out there, a very small percentage of which who might have stills. I did not imply that there were 4,000 stills out there.

What I am indicating is that there are 4,000 different sites, including something as simple as perhaps an automobile recycling location that might well have some of the materials that we are wanting to keep an eye on and control their movement. Now we have undertaken the licensing process across the province under Sections 8 and 10 of 1be Dangerous Goods Handling and Transporta tion Act to gain information and to require all of them to be brought under our regulations. Economic Growth Employment Creation Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance on jobs.

December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 575 We are all interested in jobs. As I said before, back by popular demand. Mr. Speaker, we are always being admonished by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Finance that we should look at the long run and not just month to month in terms of job creation, but if you look at the rate of job creation since this government was elected in 1988, you can see from Stats Canada data from 1988 up to 1994, including this year, Manitoba's rate of job growth has been well below the Canadian average.

In filet, as of this~ compared to '88, there has been absolutely no job creation whatsoever. There has been no growth. It is absolutely zero. So~ question to the Minister of Finance, why has Manitoba's rate of job growth overall been below the national average since this govemment assumed office? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for that question. I hope, uolike some previous questions on economic growth, that the chart that the member is referring is being interpreted cmrectly and read correctly.

I want to remind the honourable member of job growth in Manitoba that is occurring in 1994. To date, in the last three months, and that is over a longer term, there are 15,000 more jobs in Manitoba today. In terms of our manufacturing sector, we are at 64,000 jobs, the largest job growth in all of Canada this year, right here in Manitoba in the manufacturing sector. In tenns of exports, Manitoba is leading Canada in terms of export growth, more than double the national average in terms of export growth. Those are jobs right here in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker.

If you look at the telecommmication sector and the job creation, we had some discussion earlier about CN, CP and Manitoba, there are thousands of jobs being created in the telecommmications sector. I would be pleased to go on and on, and when we talk about overall economic growth, the Premier was able to table a document the other day in responding to the Speech from the Throne, setting the record straight in terms of how Manitoba compares in economic growth as compared across Canada.

Whatever indicator you use, if you use the Coofurence Board of Canada, three out of the last five years Manitoba has led the nation, exceeding the Canadian average. If you use Stats Canada, two out of the last four years we have led the Canadian average. If you use the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, Mr. Speaker, three out of the last four years we have led the Canadian average. •

(1050) Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, in 1994, the job growth rate in Manitoba was only one-quarter of the Canadian average. My question for the minister is, has the minister studied the data and observed the job growth between 1981 and 1988 during the previous NDP administration that, except for one year, Manitoba exceeded the national average? Yet, when we left office, we had 33,000 rmre jobs in place than when we were first elected. So will the minister concede that his economic policies have resulted in Manitoba's job creation performance being below the national average? Mr.

Stefanson: Again, I can only repeat, I hope that the m:mber has accurate information and that be is imelptcting it accurately because, in terms of the previous information that the NDP brought forward on economic growth, they Iead the charts wrong and their information was totally incorrect. I have already outlined in terms of economic growth what the Conference Board says about Manitoba, what Statistics Canada is saying about Manitoba, what the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics is saying about Manitoba in terms of how we are performing relative to every other province.

I should point out, because the members like to quote Statistics Canada, that from 1983 to 1989, the Statistics Canada growth estimates show that Manitoba ooly exceeded the national average once

576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 under the NDP, one ~ of their six and a half years of govemment. Under our govemment, it has been two out of the last four years by Stats Canada, three out of the last five under the Conference Board. When we talk about job growth. I do not hear the member for Brandon East stand up and talk about Manitoba in 1993 having the third largest growth in all of Canada. I do not hear the member for Brandon East talking about Manitoba having the third lowest unemployment rate. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about jobs, and the evidence is quite clear.

When we left office, we put 33,000 jobs in place. You guys have zero, big zilch, nothing. You are no better than you were in 1988. My last question. How can the people of this province have any confidence in this government's economic policies when the forecast for next year is that Manitoba's job growth rate will again be below the national average? I said in 1994 it was .5 percent for Manitoba, Canada was 2.0 percent, for mly one-quarter of the Canadian average. Why are we below the Canadian average now, and we were above- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr.

Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I have a1ready outlined for the member for Brandon East that in the last three months alone, there are 15,000 more jobs in Manitoba. I think the point I want to make most of all is, I have bad the opportunity over the last several weeks to meet with all kinds of organizations as we are preparing the 1995-96 budget I have met with the chambers of commerce. I met with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. I amm:eting wilh all kinds of organizations having public meetings, as well, throughout Manitoba.

I can tell you, within the business sector and the private sector and individual Manitobans, there is an awful lot of confidence because of what this government has done to create the positive economic climate for them by controlling taxes, by reducing taxes, by increasing the threshold on the payroll tax, all of those things.

What I mcourage those members to do, because I know they do not do it very often, get out and talk to Manitobans, the ones who will create the jobs, the ones who have optimism in Manitoba, the ooes who speak positively about the economic climate and the opportunities they have in their individual businesses. There are more private sector jobs today here in Manitoba because of the positive aspects of things that we have brought to government. I encourage those members to get out and listen to some Manitobans for a change. They could team a lot by doing that. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired ORDERS OF THE DAY Ron. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Would you call Bill 5, please. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 5-The Food Donations Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitcbdsoo), Bill 5, The Food Donations Act;

Loi sur les dms d'alinmts, standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows, who has 30 minutes remaining. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I think probably I should start by apologizing to the Chair for possibly coming close to something I should not have yesteiday. I have before me the minister's press release dated December 7 on The Food Donations Act The minister sums up the purpose of this bill in one paragraph, saying that it would remove barriers caused by concern over liability, and once this bill is passed this should encourage

December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 577 corporations, unincorporated organizations and individuals to share surplus food. Certainly that is one part of food banks that I think all of us can support, and that is the fact that surplus food in the food system and food that otherwise might be wasted is being put to good use by being given away to people who need it. There have been estimates of the amount of food in the food production and tetailing stteam as to how nmch is wasted. Research shows that up to 20 percent of all food in the production and marketing stteam is wasted.

If Winnipeg Harvest food bank and other food banks ate able to make use of this food that is otherwise wasted, then I think they ate doing all of us in society a favour. That, once again, shows the importance and benefit of food banks. The minister's press telease goes on to say that most people wish thete would be no need for food banks. While I do not always agree with this minister, I would have to agree with that.

In fact, I would go a little bit further and say that all people should wish~ is no need for food banks because~ ate lDJCh better ways and nmch m.ore appropriate ways to feed hungry people than through food banks, which have a number d. disadvantages that I outlined the first time I spoke on this bill. The press telease goes on to say that this act would mcourage the dooation of healthy nutritious food to food banks and to people who can use it, rather than the waste in needlessly being thrown out. That is certainly something that we would concur with.

If this act is successful and corporations make ineteased donations, and if individuals ma.ke increased donations and nonprofit organizations, that is good. It is significant that the minister mentioned the word "nutritious" because there is a need for a JIX)re balanced kind of diet, a m.ore balanced kind of food donation, particularly in the atea of high protein foods, because right now, as I said before, we have a surplus of foods that ate high in carbohydrates and sugar and what we need ate foods that ate high in protein. This is not always understood.

Just reamly I was talking to someone in my constituency who was complaining because lentils were being handed out at a food bank distribution point. They thought it was demeaning to be given lentils that wete in loose form and being pouted into a bag. I pointed out that lentils ate very nutritious. A lot of lentils ate being grown in Manitoba now, I believe. That is probably the source of these lentils-Manitoba. What people need is a little bit of help with education. We used to do that in North End Community Ministry.

We actually used to give people recipes, because another huge donation to Winnipeg Harvest every summer is zucchinis. Zucchinis are fine if you know how to cook them and if you know how to prepate them and use them Many poor people do not, so what we did was we used to give them a recipe for a zucchini loaf: because people need that kind of help if they ate going to take them Many times I saw fresh vegetables that were left behind because people simply did not know how to cook them So there is a need for some education to help people with that. •

(1100) Them are many very good things that are happening today in terms of alternatives to food banks and working in co-operation with food banks. One of the best sumnaries of those various altematives and solutions I found in a publication that I Oideted called Building Food Security in Canada: A Comnnmity Guide for Action on Hunger, and the editor is Laura Kalina. This publication comes from, I believe, Kamloops in B.C. I will not go into detail on this, but I would like to summarize some of the alternatives and initiatives that she lists in

Chapter 3, entitled Food Action Projects That Work. She talks about food telated job creation and training. There are some really interesting things happening. For example, I had a tour of Helping Hands organization in Brandon. They provide meals much like the Agape Table and food nmch

578 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 like a food bank outlet. One of the things is that they are doing is taking fresh fruits and vegetables, and they have designed solar ovens-well, actually not powered by solar, but by light bulbs. They are ~the vegetables and fruits, and they are freezing them Then in the off season they are handing them out. So they get these lmge dooations of fresh fruits and vegetables in season. They put them into their ovens to dehydrate them, and then they freeze them and hand them out or use them in their soup and in their meal preparation later in the year.

It was very interesting to leam about that project. In this Building Food Security document, the author talks about food-related small businesses, participant-managed food banks, commmity kitchens. There are a number of c()DlOJmity kitchens springing up in Winnipeg-one at St. Matthew's-Maryland Conmmity Ministry. People there are buying food together in bulk, cooking the food together, eating together and then taking food home to provide a .DUIIiler of meals for the balance of the week. There are many, many benefits to this.

In many cases, they are using food fn:m Winnipeg Harvest, using it quite appropriately, and they are teaching each other food preparation and cooking skills. Now, a new organization is doing somewhat similar. I bad occasion, actually on Tuesday night of this week, to enjoy a mealdtat was prepared by this group, because what they have done is they have gooe into catering. So you can see that them am many positive spin-offs fn:m food banks. Their organization is called Pioneer Cooking, and they have banded together and actually incorporated.

Their goal is to encourage the development of self-esteem and self-mliance amongst their members; and to promote msponsibility for personal and family well-being and for maintaining health, based on adequate diet and nutrition; and to mbana: comnnmity economic development by providing and encouraging role models; and combatting poverty through co operative endeavours which emphasize the efficient use of skills and msources. There was an

article in the Inner City Voice on September 7 about that. They are charging money for the meals that they are catering. Because these people are on social assistance, what they do is they keep the maximun allowable, which I believe is $50 a month oo. provincial social assistance, and I think it is still $90 a DD1th on city welfare, so they are using the IOODey they raise to provide some extra income for themselves. I think that with the skills that they gain in cooking and in catering, this could help many of them to find permanent employment, probably in the restaurant and hotel industry.

If it gets them off social assistance, then it is another very positive thing that has happened in our comnnmity. The Building Food Security in Canada Guide talks about school food programs, food co-ops and buying clubs, shoppers alerts, collective shopping, and there are a number of food co-ops in Winnipeg, including one also at St. Matthew's Maryland COilDlllllity Ministry for low-income people so that they can stretch their dollars further. Another part of this

chapter is called, From the Garden, and there are peer education programs, kitchen equipment library, hunger hot line, ~ite food actioo. projects. So there are many, many ideas that are out there in the conmnmity. UsuaUy they start in one community and spread I believe the idea for ronmmity kitchens started in Montreal, and there are about 70 of them now. Most of them are based in Catholic churches. Now this idea has come to Winnipeg, and it is quite interesting to meet with people who are involved in a comnnmity kitchen and talk to them and watch them preparing the meals and to hear what they have teamed.

In additioo. to these small-scale projects, I think there are many other things that can happen and should happen. Of oourse, the best alternative that people could possibly have to relying on food banks for income is employment or food banks to supplement their income is paid employment. Certainly when people get a job they are quite likely to stop going to food banks. You know, there are a number of myths about who it is that are poor and who it is that are oo.

- December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 579 social assistance. I think the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) of Manitoba really insults people on social assistance when she says that these people have chosen welfare as a career option. I do not think that anybody chooses welfare as a career option. In fact, when the government of Ontario commissiooed a study on social assistance and published a report, I believe in 1989, called Transitions, they did an analysis of people m social assistance.

What they found out was that on average social assistance recipients were only recipients for three months. That comes as a real surprise because the mythology in our society is that people are on social assistance for generations. Just yesterday, in my reading, I came across an American study which looked at the same thing and came up with quite a similar resulL I do not know whether I can find the title page to this document, but somebody did research on the American statistics. What they found was that the vast majority of income poverty is temporary.

The researcher was Sawhill, and in 1988, in a review article, be documented that of those who experienced poverty on an annual basis, about 45 percmt of poverty spells end within one year, and 70 percent are over within three years. So a great deal of poverty, both in Canada and the United States, is short term. Another way to look at those statistics is to look at single parents. We know that single parents are vastly overrepresented in the ranks of the poor. Over 60 percent of all single parents live below the poverty line, and it is rising.

But if you break it down further, you see that it really depends m the age of cbilchm and that when there are children who are preschoolers, there is a IDlch higher percmtage of single parents and poverty. But once their cbilchm enter school, they tend to go back to the paid labour force, so then, of course, there are fewer single parents living in poverty. As my colleague from Osborne (Ms. McConnick) pointed out, child care is a big factor here.

We know that when there is affordable and accessible child care and that people take advantage of this and find a suitable child care space, then it is much. much easier for them to go back to university or college and/or to enter the paid workforce. So child care is a very important component in helping get people out of poverty, out of social assistance and into paid employment.

Regrettably, this government capped the number of child care cases at 9,600 and recently has increased it by 300, but it does not nearly go far enough to meeting the need The second mJSt important thing, I believe, that could be done in order to stop people from relying m food bank handouts would be to ensure that there are adequate benefits for people both m social assistance and on unemployment insurance, and not just people who could be in the paid workforce but also seniors.

One of the ideas that I have suggested in my comments on the federal government's social security review is that the federal government should look at the categories in groups of people who are poor and see what they can learn from the trends over the last 25 )ears. H they did that, what they would find is that there is one group that has experienced a very significant decline in poverty in the last 25 ~· That is seniors, and why is that? Well, it is due to a number of reasons.

I think the major reason probably is the guaranteed income supplemm which was brought in many years ago by a federal Liberal government, and the other reason is more women being in the paid work force and retiring with Canada Pension benefits and company pension benefits. So there has been a very substantial decline in seniors' poverty.

I think if governments can target a particular group of people in our society IWch as they did with scoiors and watch the rate of poverty decline, then I think we could do that with other groups, whether it is children or whether it is single parents or whether it is families or the working poor. If govemmmt has the will, I think we could do the same thing with other groups of people. But, regrettably, the federal Liberal government is going in the opposite direction. They are cutting

580 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 unemployment insurance benefits; they are increasing university tuition. They have offered child care spaces. It will be very interesting to see what happens in Manitoba, and we were very interested in what the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) had to say in her statement to the House earlier this week, and also the document she put out called A Manitoba Perspective on the Federal Government's Proposals on Social Security Renewal. We have been waiting for this for a long time, and we finally have it. •

(1110) Wherever the federal government has been offioading, of crurse, the provincial government is vel)' critical, and one of those areas is the cost to the Province of Manitoba of providing social assistance to off-reserve treaty aboriginal people. They have been keeping track of this cost, and now it is up to $60 million.

The government rightly points out that, under the Constitution of Canada, legally these people are the responsibility of the federal government The province also points out that when there are reductions in benefits for people 001lllelq)loyment insurance, there is a cost to the Province of Manitoba. The original calrulatioo that I saw was $2 million for 1994-95. I think that has gone up. I do not have the statistics in front of me, but of course, it is going to go up as time goes on. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) We have two examples where the provincial government has been very critical of the federal government for cutbacks in their funding to individuals and provinces. They also talk about the rollback of the Canada Assistance Plan or, as some people have called it, the cap on CAP. We know that there will be a reduction of funds to Manitoba, which the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) calculates to be $60 million. That is a considerable cost to a province like Manitoba.

When there is something positive on the table, like new child care spaces, I believe $70 million, the Minister of Family Services kind of waffles and talks about the need to create new flexible spaces or to put the money into flexible child care. In fact, thetc is an offer on the table to provide new spaces in Manitoba. We are waiting to see if this government is going to take up the federal government on that offer. I doubt very much if they will. I think those spaces will remain empty, and that money will not be used in Manitoba. I do not know what the minister is going to argue.

Perhaps she will say that during the election campaign, this promise was made to Cieate 150,000 new spaces in Canada, but no one said that it would be delivered through the Canada Assistance Plan and therefore cost shared on a so- 50 basis with the Province of Manitoba. We are hoping they will do the right thing.

Another example of a provincial program that was eliminated by this government was the SOSAR program, which allowed single parents to attcod university or post-secoodary institutions and have the cost paid by the provincial government Now that is no longer possible because that program was eliminated, and it was a very good program. I know some of the graduates of that program. Some of the students that I taught in a social work course at the University of Manitoba were in that program, and they have jobs now.

I think it is always to the benefit of the government and the taxpayers if people have paying jobs and are paying income tax as opposed to being oo social assistance. I am disappointed that the government has eliminated that program. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think I will tJ)' to wind up my remarks shortly. I would like to conclude by saying that some of the alternatives I have proposed and some of the things I have criticized the government for obviously cost money. This government might rightly say, well, how are we going to pay for that?

One way would be to cancel the operating agreement with the Winnipeg Jets, an operating agreement that is going to cost the taxpayers of Winnipeg and Manitoba $43 millioo if it runs its full course, and to not putting any mooey into a new arena. That is -

- December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 581 a lot of money that is on the table. 'The Kenaston underpass is another example. If tho-particularly the federal government-but if the provincial govermnent wants to point out where some of the money is available and the federal govermnent really wants to get serious, they could look in the federal government publication called the Personal and Corporate Income Tax Expenditures December 1993. It itemizes billions of dollars of uncollected revenue that the federal government could collect if they so choose.

Probably one of the best examples is the private fiunily trusts which have billions of dollars, none of it being taxed because the Liberal government in the 1970s passed a 21-year rule to exempt this from taxation; the Conservative govenmrnt in Ottawa, I believe in 1993, extended it another 21 years, and so there is no taxation on private family trusts. 'Ibere are many, many other sources of revenue that are itemized with amounts in this excellent publication.

If the government is serious about wanting the federal government to pay for some of these things instead of offioading the cost to the province of Manitoba, then this is where they can find the money. With those COIIliDe1lls and observations, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will conclude and also say that we are prepared to pass this bill to committee. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I want to spend a few moments speaking about Bill 5, The Food Donation Act. It is obviously a bill that has a fair degree of support.

All parties have placed it before the Legislature today, over the last couple of weeks, and I think that is extremely positive in terms of this bill. As we had said in our alternative speech from the throne, when we had proposed this legislation am:ngst other bills, obviously preventing poverty has got tO be the first goal in our COtDDl!JDities and om society, and intolerable levels of poverty are totally unacceptable to all of us. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Having said that, there is a reality out there that people are lnmgry, and people that are hungry need food.

There is a tremendous increase in the number of food banks and distribution centres and soup kitchens in Manitoba, and unfortunately in other provinces, and this need has been met by food banks in this provine»-[interjection] Yes, I do. As I say, this food bank increase is not germane to Manitoba in the 1990s; it is across the country. Mr. Acting Speaker, this bill will deal with the part of distribution of food and the obtaining of food in a way that protects, to some degree, those people that are donating the food to the food banks. Therefore, it is a good bill and one worthy of support.

I had the opportunity to visit Harvest about three weeks ago. It was not my first visit. I have had other visits before. I remain very impressed with the staff and the thousands of volunteers who work in the Harvest operation, whether the distribution of food points in other places in the city or whether it is directly in Harvest itself or whether it is people contributing food. I have always been very, very-not only impressed with the people, the volunteers, who are tremendous sources of strength for our comnnmity, but I have also been saddened by the increased numbers.

You know, none of us have easy answers to these questions. If you read the Uptown newspaper last week, there was a very, very in depth

article about child poverty and poverty here in Manitoba. Why do we have a situation in only a year that we have gone from 1,900 children a month to 3,400 children a month who need food from a food bank in Winnipeg? •

(1120) All of us are here and believe that we have difiCiaJt solutions to this, but all of us collectively know that this is a challenge beyood all partisan politics for all of us to deal with. Children who are hungry needing food banks, 3,400 of them a month, in a society and a comrmmity that is wealthy relative to the world A comnnmity that is

582 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 a decent comnnmity with lots of strengths, lots of advantages, lots of, as I say, wealth, lots of financial strength. Yet we have 3,400 children a month needing food from food banks. We have to deal with this, and we have suggested in om alternative to the throne speech some measures, not all the measures, but some measures, to deal with this, putting back some bridges for people to get opportunity and get off social assistance, which does two things.

It not ooly gets people off of social assistance in terms of the cost, but it also provides positive role models in terms of dignity. The dignity of work is very important. h provides not only in the short term a retum on om investment rather than welfare; it also provides in the long term that kids are growing up with a positive role model in their family in terms of work and the dignity of work that that brings. That is one way in terms of dealing with and stopping the cycle of poverty. We applaud the government for bringing this bill forward. It replicates bills that the other two parties have brought forward.

But we ask the question. we cannot stop asking the question today, why have you rut students' social allowance? Why have you reduced New Careers program? Why have you cut back on the ACCESS programs, programs that had impact on families in dealing with poverty? Why has the federal government rut back on ACCESS? What have they got to replace it with both in terms of the forn:ao Conservatives and in the budget that we saw last February?

Where are programs like ACCESS in the Axworthy paper on reform, because we are the ones in Manitoba, when you look at our ronmmm from wbcm we v.ae 20 years ago, we have trained social workers from First Nations ronmmities. We have trained doctors. We have trained engineers. We have provided positive role models in those COJDIDimities through ACCESS progrllim and New Careers programs, and Student Social Allowances was a similar program. The govenu•mt said they rut it because no other province does that exact same program. That was the answer givm by the t'onia-minister.

Well, but there are similar programs in other provinces. Saskatchewan has similar programs, because people know that to train somebody, to get them off the social assistance makes more sense than paying people welfare in perpetuity. It is not a difficult concept. I mean, there are old-fashioned sayings: you give a person a fish and they eat for a day; you teach him how to fish and they eat for life. These are not new thoughts. Many of us that have some beliefs, some religious beliefs, have heard these in om churches before. I am sure my good friend the member for Steinbach (Mr.

Driedger}-! keep wanting to say Einerson. but it is Steinbach-has heard this himself and believes that because in his cormmmities that is the tradition. In fact, Manitoba knows that we have some of the highest per capita citi7.ens contributing in the ronmmities that are representative of the member for Steinbach than anywhere in Canada, doing world development worlc. What are they doing? They are teaching people how to nm their own economies. They are teaching people how to get off dependence and how to get on to independence. his a Manitoba tradition that we have cut back on.

We have gone in the opposite direction. We are being penny wise and pound foolish, because we know to spend one dollar on training to get people off welfare ultimately retums seven times more money back to our economy. I say break some of that poverty cycle that is so important to deal with. Let us look at the old proverb of teaching people to fish rather than giving them fish. Let us look at that. Maybe we do not have to go too far away. You know, we have a world of megabytes on computers and fibre optics, and we can plug into Australia.

In my basement we have a computer there that I am teaming to work that fascinates me, but sfliTII'times, you know, in those computers that we shouldnotlose sight of some of the old-fashioned common sense logic of teaching people to fish. Let us have a province that teaches people to iJSh. -

- December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 583 We have to deal with that when we are dealing with giving people a fish today in this bill. Now we want to protect the people who are handing out those fish, and I, therefore, support this bill. But we want to do something more than that because hungry people should not exist in a cormmmity like Manitoba with all our wealth. With a $22- billion to $23-billion gross domestic product, there is no room for hungry children in our communities. We have failed collectively to find a way to deliver, and the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Pramik) makes a point which I did not hear, but there is a food bank in his cormmmity since he has been elected. I visited the food bank in his com:wnity. It was not there in 1988. Now that is not his fault. [interjection] Well, maybe the Minister of Labour (Mr. Pramik) does not think it is a problem Maybe the Minister of Labour thinks freezing the nrinimnm wage for four and a half years is not contributing to poverty. We think he is dead wrong. Point of Order Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On a point of older, Mr. Acting Speaker, I always enjoy listening to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer).

His remarks are generally eloquent and most of the time well put together. I do not necessarily agree with all the content, but in this case he is nowhere near the bill, and I would ask you to please bring him back to some relevance. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): I thank the honourable minister for that. I was not quite following it that closely, but I will listen a little clearer. I would ask the honourable member to keep it close to relevancy on the bill. ••• Mr. Doer: Wben you are talking about food, Mr.

Acting Speaker, and you are talking about child poverty with food, I would suggest the minister may not like my comments. I would not expect he would, but you cannot even begin to argue that talking about food is irrelevant to The Food Donations Act. I suggest that is a pretty weak argument on behalf of the honourable House leader for the government side. Mr. Acting Speaker, I was just suggesting and I am talking about the old proverb. I think we were all raised with that. I think we all believe that. I had the opportunity, as I say, to visit Harvest a couple of weeks ago. It was not my first visit.

Evm last night I had the opportunity to visit with a number of volunteers that are working with the Harvest. Last night was the sixth anniversary of the Huroo Carole sponsored by Tom Jackson, and I want to congratulate Tom Jackson and Graham Greene and Manitoba Pool Elevators who last night probably made the point I would make to relevance. Manitoba Pool Elevators last night sponsored the Huron Carole, and they said it is absolutely relevant for a company that produces food to be involved in the distribution of food to those who need it. That is why they are a COipOiate sponsor.

As producers of food here in Manitoba, they were very cooa:med that producers of food are plugged in with those who need it the most. There are many other coipOiate sponsors, Mr. Acting Speaker; I want to congratulate them We have to deal with all the issues causing poverty. We also have to deal with child poverty when it occurs. We have suggested that this bill be passed. We have suggested this bill be passed by all members of the Legislature and that the public have an opportunity to speak out oo conmittee, because we believe this bill should go to committee to let the public speak out on this bill.

It is a traditioo of this Legislature that the public is involved at the end of second reading oo legislatim. We would like speedy passage of this bill, but we would not want to miss the step that allows people oo the front lines to speak out oo this legislation, because I think it is important for us to hear the real stories and the real issues that

584 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 the volunteers and agencies who are dealing with food and poverty deal with on a daily basis. Mr. Acting Speaker, even today the Agape Table had a breakfast this morning. I did not get a chance to go this year. I have been in past years. But, again, it is an effort of the connmmity to do sorrething about poverty and the feeding of people that need that. Mr.

Acting Speaker, we support this bill, and we support all measures that this govemment or any other government or any other party will take to wOik on an economic strategy to create jobs; to wodc on an economic strategy that provides fair minimnm wages to get people out of poverty; to have a strategy that builds bridges for independence rather than taking away those bridges through cutbacks in ACCESS, New Careers and Student Social Allowances and other programs that are vital to the working poor and the welfare poor in our province. •

(1130) We support strategies to deal with aboriginal people aaoss Manitoba in a co-opemtive way with the federal government. The govemment always says that child poverty has a correlation with aboriginal population. Well, the two provinces that have the highest child poverty mte happen to be Manitoba and Alberta, and the only thing we have in common, Mr. Acting Speaker, is an ideology that I believe is a mcc to the bottom rather than an ideology that is one of sharing and compassion in terms of our society.

That is~ bias, and I am entitled to it We believe that this bill, in our conversations with volunteers at Harvest and David Northcott, he says that this bill has been IeqUested by corporatioos like Safeway, by SuperValu, by other food stores that are donating generously of their tbod to the Harvest organization. I do not want to miss any company. I think that all food stores, Family Fare and others are involved in participation with Harvest. I was there, there was a whole trayload of buns coming in from Costco fur people. That, too, is a company that has been supporting the Harvest food bank.

I also want to congratulate the producers. Fanners have produced a lot of food. There are toos of potatoes that have come into the food bank. There are lots of fruit and produce that comes in to the Harvest organization from farmers across Manitoba. Last year's pamde, the Thanksgiving pamde, which was co-spoosored by Harvest and fanners in Manitoba, produced tons of food from people at harvest time donating food to Harvest. So I believe this bill protects all of them People in good faith that are donating food to our food banks should be protected by this legislation.

They should not be subject to potential lawsuits if the food is donated in good faith. We, therefore, support this bill, and we want this bill to pass, and we want this bill to go to public hearings at the end of second reading stage, as is customary in this House. We want this bill-obviously after a speedy set of public hearings we would like this bill to be passed as expeditiously as possible . An Honourable Member: Speedy hearings? That is really meaningful, is it not? Mr. Doer: Well, I think the govemment wants bearings; we want bearings; the public wants hearings. That is our tradition.

That is one thing we can agree on, that people have a right to speak out oo their legislation in their House. It is useful that all three parties agree oo this legislation. All three parties have proposed it Now it is, we believe, the opportunity for the public to speak on it and we can get on with passing this very positive bill. Thank you very nmch. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Speaker, I have heaid people from all sides in the House here deal with this bill and indicate that it is a good bill, it is good legislation, it should happen.

My suggestion, and I make the offer to the opposition parties, that we can make this bill law today if we wanl We can simply go into Committee of the Whole, deal with the bill and have the L;mtenant-Govemor come in and give it -

- December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 585 Royal Assent later this moming, and the bill will be law. For those who wish to donate, particularly at this time of year when there are all kinds of bountiful food that in many cases may well go to waste, we can put it into law and we can have those donations made over the next week leading up to Ouistmas so that those families who are in need can have an opportunity to have a decent Ouistmas. Points of Order Mr. Doer: On a point of order, Mr. Acting Speaker, we have had calls from members of the public who wanted to speak out on the bill.

So I know that all of us are in agreement. We are certainly willing to have a committee meeting [ interjection] I beg you pardon? Yes, from Harvest and other people. Well, I mean we are prepared to pass the bill. [interjection] Okay, well, we will want to consult with the people that have been calling us about presenting a brief, so other people can speak to the bill and we will be making some phone calls. Thank you. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Order, please. 'Ihe honourable member did not have a point of order. 1be honourable member, on another point of order, or is the honourable member getting up to speak? ••• Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Another point of order, Mr. Acting Speaker. I just want to allay the fears of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). We have the same concerns, and it certainly is a tradition if a bill has any opposition or controversy that we would do that, but- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. 'Ihe honourable member does not have a point of order.

That point of order has already been coocludod. The honourable member does not have a point of order. Is there anyone else speaking to this bill? The honourable member for Broadway. • •• Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Acting Speaker, on a point of order. I believe that the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) initially had stood up on a point of order. Once you made your ruling, he was standing up to actually continue on in speaking on this particular bill. We would be prepared to grant leave to the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) to speak following the JmJDber for St.

James so he does not lose his spot. I am sure there would be leave to be able to accommodate that. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Speaker, speaking on the same point of order as the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), let me say that it was ~ understanding when the member rose on a point of order that he had intended to speak on the bill, but was seeking clarification raised by the point of order by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). So with all due respect, I think it is ooly fair, and no one needs to give leave for anyone to speak. 'Ihe bill is before the House.

Anyone can speak who has not spoken before, so I think, at this point, the floor was in favour of the Leader of the second opposition party (Mr. Edwards). The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. I would like to thank the honourable members for their input on the member for Inkster's point of order, but the honourable member for Inkster did not have a point of order because I had already recognized the honourable member for Broadway to speak. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): I am willing to yield to the Leader of the- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Thank you.

Is there leave of the House for the honourable JmJDber for Broadway to yield to the member, and he will not lose his tum? [agreed] • ••

586 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 Mr. Edwards: I want to thank the member for Broadway for that, and I will be short in my comments. I have very few comments, because I have made my views known oo this bill as I did on the NDP bill, as I did on the resolution put forward by the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), all covering the same thing. It certainly is a tradition in this House that all agree that we want to send bills of any controversy to public committee.

It is also a tradition in this House that for non-controversial pieces of legislation, we have often gone right to the Committee of the Whole, we have often gone through third reading, and we have often had Royal Assent and done it very quickly. In fact, we have sent a signal to the public that when there is no controversy, we can act quickly, and we can act decisively, and we can act productively in this Ouunber. I took the preliminary step this moming, before speaking oo this, to speak to Mr.

David Northcott, who is the bead of Winnipeg Harvest, who probably in this province has IDOie interest in having this bill passed than anyone else because he sees the need for it every single day. His comment was this moming to om caucus, be has no desire to speak. If there is any chance that we can get this passed into law today, that is what he wants. He wants it passed into law because he says, as the government House leader (Mr.

Ernst) has pointed out, every single day at this particular time, probably Dl01'C so than any other time of the year, thousands and thousands of pounds of foodstuffs are being donated, and be would like that protection as soon as possible. He would have liked it years ago. But the fact is, every single day that goes past, he will be disappointed that this bill is not passed. So be wants it into law. 1bere is one person registered to speak on this bill, Mr. Tracy Young from Brandon. I just spoke to Mr. Young, just moments before I had the opportunity to stand and speak. Mr.

Young was going to come to the committee to give us all heck for not passing it sooner. That was his sole purpose in speaking to the committee. He said-I want to get this right. His verbatim comments to me were: I have spent 20 years trying to get this type oflegislation into place. Would you please get the job done. That is what he was going to say to us. It seems clear to me that we should send a message to those most interested, like Mr. Young and Mr. Northcott, that we can act decisively. He was the ooly individual. He specifically asked me, Mr.

Young did, to call him back later on to let him know what we have been able to do today to get this law into place, because he is going to be very upset if we do not put it into law today, given the chance. •

(1140) Mr. Acting Speaker, he had no desire to propose ll1li'J1dnr.nts or to make any other comment to our committee except to give us heck for taking so long to do it. We can make Mr. Young happy. We can make Mr. Northcott happy. We can do the right thing. We have all put forward similar pieces of legislation. I suggest we take the govemment House leader's advice, get on with it and do the job, and there is a precedent for this in this type of noncontroversial situation. We are in the Christmas season. Donations are being made every day, IDOie so than at any other time of the year.

I think we can send a signal to the public that we can act quickly and decisively and productively and do the right thing and not get caught up in the Ihetoric, in the partisanship, but just get on with the job. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Santos: Mr. Acting Speaker, we would like to support this bill because it is important that donors be protected from liability. The food itself is essential to life, and without food, life cannot go on. 1bere are some people who are unfortunate and have no means to feed themselves. The poor of this world will always be poor, and the rich of this world will always be -

- December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 587 rich. It is always a world where some people are deprived of the basic necessities of life and some people have so much that those who are deprived sometimes have to get under the table and get the crumbs from those who have the most. We want to facilitate the dJarity and good nature of people with some facilities to use it. The processing of the food itself, however, is the most wasteful of all the stages in the food production process.

I have seen how food had been served in cafeterias in universities and in other cafeterias. 1bat is the greatest waste there is that takes place in all of those places. Yet when food distributors and restaurants and other places where they rnam.dilcture and process food distribute this food, they sometimes have to throw these things to waste. They are afraid to donate it for fear that they may be subjected to some liability. Therefore, we ask the immediate processing of this bill, Mr. Acting Speaker. Thank you. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Is the House ready for the question? Point of Order Mr.

Doer: On a point of order, Mr. Acting Speaker, we have consulted a couple of groups that we were involved with directly drafting our own bill on this bill. There is a consensus from those groups to do it today. I just caution members here that taking an extra day sometimes instead of playing politics is useful because we are not absolutely perfect in terms of drafting bills. We will agree because we do not want to get caught up in a political game about something that makes uses- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. 1he honourable member does not have a point of order. ••• The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 5 ('lbe Food Donations Act;

Loi sur les dons d'aliments ). Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Mr. Ernst: I move, seconded by the Minister responsible for Government Services (Mr. Duchanne), that Mr. Acting Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider Bill 5. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider Bill 5, with the honourable IIJeDlber for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Bill 5-The Food Donations Act Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, please.

Will the Committee of the Whole please come to order. The Committee of the Whole will come to order to consider Bill 5, The Food Dmations Act (Loi sur les dons d'aliments). Does the honourable Minister of Family Services wish to make an opening statement? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): No. Madam Chairperson: Does the opposition critic, the honourable member for Burrows, wish to make a statement? Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): No. Madam Chairperson: Does the critic for the second opposition party, the honourable member for Osbome, wish to make a statement? Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): No .

Madam Chairperson: We shall then proceed to consider Bill5 clause by clause. Oause 1-pass; Clause 2--pass; Oause 3-pass; Oause 4-pass; Oause 5-pass;

Preamble-pass; Tide of the Bill -pass.

588 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1994 Is it the will of the committee that I report the bill? Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION Committee Report Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson fl Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has coosidered Bill 5 (The Food Donations Act;

Loi sur les dons d'aliments), and reports the same without amendment. I DXM\ scaxvkrl by the honourable member for La Verendcye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. REPORT STAGE Bill 5-The Food Donations Act Hoo.. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move (by leave), seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 5, The Food Donations Act (Loi sur Ies dons d'aliments), as reported from the Committee of the Whole be concurred in. Motion agreed to. THIRD READINGS Bill 5-The Food Donations Act Hoo..

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 5, The Food Donations Act (Loi sur les dons d'ailments), be now read a third time and passed Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable govemment House leader have leave for third reading of Bill 51 [agreed] Motion agreed to. •

(1150) House Business Mr. Ernst: On a matter of House Business, given the Ou:isbnas spirit that has been evident here this morning, it has occurred perhaps a little more quickly than the Lieutenant-Governor can be available, so we will have, I think maybe, about 20 minutes or so before he can be available to give Bill 5 the Royal Assent, as we have collectively agreed to here this morning. So perhaps we may wish to either adjourn for a short period of time, recess until the Lieutenant Governor is available, or we can start on s~ else.

It makes it a little more awkward if we do start on s~thing else rather than simply recess until perhaps twelve o'clock, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: What is the will of the House? I am informed that the Lieutenant-Governor, His Honour, cannot be present until12:15. We will be recessed until 12:15. The bells will ring for one minute at 12:14, be present in the House for 12:15. This House now recesses unti112:15. The House recessed at 11:52 a.m. After Recess The House resumed at 12:15 p.m. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Clair) Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

I have been advised that the Lieutenant-Governor has mived. Will all hmourable members please rise? ROYAL ASSENT Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Garry Oark): His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. His Honour Yves Dumont, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the throne, Madam Deputy Speaker addressed His -

- December 16, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 589 Honour the lieutenant-Governor in the following words: Madam Deputy Speaker: May it please Your Honour: The Legislative Assembly, in its present session, passed a bill which in the name of the Assembly I present to Your Honour and to which bill I respectfully request Your Honom's assent, BillS, The Food Donations Act;

Loi sur 1es dons d'aliments. Mr. Oerk (William Remnant): In Her Majesty's name His Honour the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to this bill. (His Honour was then pleased to retire.) Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable govemment House leader, what are your intentions, sir? Hoo. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, I think if you look closely at the clock, you will find it is 12:30. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it 12:307 Agreed? [agreed] The hour being 12:30, this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until1:30 p.m., Monday.

- LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, December 16, 1994 CONTENTS ROUTT.NEPROCEEDINGS Oral Questions Presenting Petitions CNRail Physical Education in Schools Doer; Findlay; Filmon Lamoureux 563 Red River Comnnmity College Martindale 563 Friesen; Manness C.

Evans 563 CNRail Schellenberg 563 Edwards; Findlay; Reid; Filmon Friesen 563 Handi- Transit Crime Rate Hickes 563 Mackintosh; Vodrey Youth Crime Rate Reading and Receiving Petitions Mackintosh; Vodrey Canada Post-Unsolicited Mail Judicial System Friesen 563 Mackintosh; Vodrey Physical Education in Schools Asbestos Handling Guidelines Lamoureux 564 Cerilli; Pramik Ministerial Statements and Environmental Protection McCormick; Ounmings Tabling of Reports Quarterly Report, Manitoba Public Economic Growth Insurance Corporation; Retum under L.

Evans; Stefanson Public Officers Act ORDERS OF THE DAY Stefanson 564 Annual Report, Manitoba Women's Debate on Second Readings Advisory Council Bill5, Food Donations Act Vodrey 564 Martindale Annual Report, Quarterly Reports: Doer Ernst Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Edwards Gilleshammer 564 Santos Annual Report, Environment Omunings 564 Committee of the Whole Annual Reports: Residential Tenancies Bill 5, Food Donations Act Branch, Residential Tenancies Commission Report Stage Ernst 564 Bill 5, Food Donations Act Social Assistance lnformation-5haring Agreement Third Readings Mitchelson 564 Bill 5, Food Donations Act Martindale 565 McCormick 566 Royal Assent 566 568 569 571 572 572 573 573 574 576 581 584 586 586 587 588 588 588

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Citation	35-6-12
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Language	en
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