PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Tuesday, March 29, 1977

March 29, 1977, Tape 1359, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! On behalf of all bon. members I am pleased to welcome to the Legislature twenty-nine students in the Secretarial Science Division of the College of Trades and Technology. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mrs. Hounsell and Mrs. Dean. I know all bon. members join me in welcoming these people to the House of Assembly this afternoon. HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: ~ - ~· - - ~ _ MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker , I wish to make a statement · elating to the recent press release by the Eastcan group of companies relati~ to their intention not to drill off the coast of this Province this forthcoming Summe~. In view of the fact that the reasons given for this suspension of drilling operations relate to a matter of vital tmportance to the Province, it is imperative that the position of this administration be placed on record so that the public may judge whether or not we are, in fact, acting responsibly in this matter. Mr.

Speaker, since this administration took office in 1972, all exploration conducted off·the coast of this Province has been carried out pursuant to an interim permit issued with the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council under the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act of 1965 as amended. These interim permits gave the intertm permittee only exploration rights and did not convey any right or t~tle to the oil resources of the permit area. Up to and including last year's drilling season, the interim permit mechanism was satisfactory to the companies.

By late last Spring it became obvious that a political settlement of the jurisdictional dispute with the Federal Government ~.;auld not be forthcoming. Consequently, under

March 29, 1977, Tape 1359, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: instructions from the government and the Premier, my officials started work on preparing regulations which would allow the Province to issue both exploratio~ and production rights. It was obvious that as the jurisdictional dispute came to a final resolution, no company would be willing to undertake large investments where its title was, in fact, unclear because of the lack of provincial production rights -.

It was anticipated that the companies' percept~on of the need to obtain provincial production rights would change once the decision was made to go to court. This_prediction came true. In the early Fall of 1976 Eastcan and a number of other groups made strong representations to the Province that in view of the fact that the Province was proceeding to court on the jurisdictional dispute, they felt that they needed production rights from the Province before further major iuvestments could be made.

March 29, 1977 Tape 1360 PK - 1 Mr. Peckford: It should be stressed that the rights which Eastcan and the other operators now wish to obtain from this Province are rights to produce and would include such matters as the level of royalties and the amount of acreage on which -they can go to lease. Upon receiving the Eastcan request we thereupon accelerated our preparations of the draft regulations and have been _working intensively on· these since that . ~ime. __ _ In contrast the Federal Government has been working on their proposed regulations since 1971.

It must be stressed that the regulations under contemplation by this government will be the most important piece of legislation relating to offshore oil and gas rights as it will set out the essential bargain between operators such as Eastcan and the Province and will in fact determine the conditions upon which development can go forward and eventually the benefits which will accure .to this Province. Consequently, it is of great importance that the regulations be carefully-ana 'thouglitfu!Iy Cfia£ted .and that input be received from, not only the oil companies, but ·also the general public.

Because of this, it is our intention to publish a draft set of these regulations in a matter of weeks and receive public comments on them before we finally commit the Province as to the nature of the conditions we will attach to the development. It is obvious that in a matter of such great importance to the Province that it will be necessary in this administration to negotiate a good bargain for the Province. This will naturally involve some very hard bargaining indeed.

However, I am confident that we will be able to find the proper balance between ensuring that the people of the Province receive their fair share of benefits from these developments while at the same time the oil companies, whose captial and expertise we need, will be able to accept our regulations as reasonable so that development can go forward on terms and conditions acceptable to both parties.

March 29' 1977 Tape· 1360 PK- 2 Mr. Peckford: It is, however, of the utmost importance that we do not trade rather minor short-term benefits at the expense of our long term objectives. In this respect, the decision by Eastcan to suspend their operations this Summer must be placed squarely in the context of the overall struggle to ensure that these resources are developed for the overall benefit of the Province. Mr. Speaker, our draft regulations have been described as being "more onerous" than those of the Federal Government.

This fact is cited as one of the reasons why Eastcan does not wish to drill this ·summer. On that I would make two comments: First, the proposals sent to Eastcan are draft regulations only. They will be modified where it can be concretely demonstrated that : their impact will make offshore developments uneconomic. I should stress in this respect that this is not a hit or miss process with us. My department has worked long and hard with the assitance of reputable consultants and at some expense to develo.p a computer programme to analyze the profitability of the oil companies' operations off our Province.

That programme.is we believe at least the equal of anything the oil companies have. In addition, a special Interdepartmental Committee of senior officials has worked to ensure that our Eegualtions meet the objectives of the Province generally. I believe it is fair to say that our conversations with the oil companies have generally proceeded cordially and with mutual respect. Indeed the input of the oil companies particularly on the projected cost and timing of development has been helpful. The second point follows from the first. While we are ready, Mr.

Speaker, to make any necessary adjustments in, say our royalty structure, to accommodate what can be proved to us to be the true economics of the situation, there is an area which is not negotiable - that area can be broadly described as relating to the Province's control over offshore operations and to ensuring that the ~eonle u~ t~is Provi~ce Cerive ~X(l~un benefit frc~ these develo?Bents . . -::::: ·:-: :"J.S : _;___::_ __ ..;__ __ ----

March 29, 1977 Tape 1360 PK - 3 Mr.

Peckford: Let me l .ist a few o~ ~e guidlelines which have governed our approach to the draft regulations: (1) that a company will only be granted that amount of land which it can effectively explore; (2) that an all lands granted, the company Will undertake to conduct a high level of exploration; (3) that once oil or gas is found in co~erical quantit.ies, before any massive offshore develOpment plan is app-roved, a full review of its economic, social and enviromnental consequences will . take place with the provision for public input; (4) that where economically and technically feasible, all oil and gas -found off the Province will be landed in the Province; (5) that this Province - will have first· call on any

March 29,1977 Tape 1361 AH-1 MR..

PECKFORD : oil or gas found for industrial purposes; (6) that the oil companies make a proper contribution to the training of residents of this Province to ensure that they have the skills to get work offshore; (7) that the oil companies make a proper contribution to research and development programmes in this Province so that local businesses can be at the forefront of of this rtew development; (8) that the oil companies guarantee to spend a significant proporotion of their offshore expenditures within this ProvinceJ (9) that residents of the Province be given preference for any employment opportunities; (10) that local business be given a preference where compe~itive in price, quality and delivery and that they have a fair and equal chance to tender on all work;

(11) Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the Federal Government has short-sightedly issued rights to the whole continental margin. The oil companies now want to receive provincial rights to the same massive area, some 100 million acres. While we will not duplicate Ottawa's folly in this regard, in recognition of the oil companies past expenditures, we will probably end up granting mo~e lands than we might in absence of those expenditures.

Consequently, this Government feels that it must reserve the right to control the timing and impact of offshore developments if discoveries made on permits issued in the first instance boom far beyond the capacity of our economy and society. No one should deny the reasonableness of this basic right of self defence. Mr. Speaker, can these terms and conditions be termed as Mr. Gillespie claims "onerous" I say, Mr. Speaker, that if these minimum terms are "more onerous" than the Federal regulations, then it is Ottalva, not this Province, which is failing to develop sound offshore management principles. 3 7 S'7

March 29 ,1977 Tape 1361 HR.. PECKFORD : My officials are working hard to get our Draft Regulations together with explanatory back-up material out to the people of this Province. I am confident, Mr. Speaker, they will endorse our stand in this matter when the full impact of our draft regulations is realized. I have been asked on a number of occasions whether in fact Eastcan's decision is some sort of pressure play or economic blackmail.

I think I can say without fear of contradiction that it is not in fact ·either of these but the decision of ' a prudent investor who wishes to see a basic uncertafnty cleared up before making further commitments. I would say, however, that if it is otherwise and if this move by Eastcan and the recent statements of Mr. Gillespie represents a challenge to the authority of this Government and to the rights of the people of this Province with respect to these resources, that it is a challenge that I, for my part, would most happily accept.

The recentt seal hunt controverS¥ demonstrates that the people of this Province will no longer passively accept interference in our way of life by outside forces however well financed and however sophisticatedly organized. I am sure that if it would ever come to a confrontation with oil companies such as Eastcan that the people of this Province would stand foursquare behind us in our endeavours to ensure that these offshore resources are developed first and foremost for the benefit of the people of this Province. Thank You. SOME HON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Eagle River. MR.

STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, in replying to the Ministerial Statement,and realizing that one cannot enter into the realm of debate,there are many many points in the statement which require further·discussion and also clarification. But to take some of

March 29,1977 Tape 1361 AH-3 ~m.. STRACHAN : the points and, __ not necessarily in order, which the minister has stated here; the minister has stated that the decision of Eastcan is a decision of a prudent investor who wants to be careful in its dealings,especially in view of the fact that they have spent over the last number of years hundreds of millions of dollars in exploration for oil off this Province.

At the same- time we must be aware of the fact that Eastcanl or _ ':(;otal the conglomeration of companies which baclc it,are one of the few companies of many multi-national companies who are searching this world for a source of crude oil and .therefore are putting this Province, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador right in the middle of an international consortium or international world of oil. • 3789

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1362 Page 1 - MS Mr. Strachan. and, therefore, our position as the minister has stated, and I believe quite rightlyJ the position we must take as a position which is strong, firm and a position in which we cannot be bartered or blackmailed or bluffed by multi-national oil corporations, many o·f them who have budgets far greater than the budget of this Province, many of them who are greater than governments in this world, many of them who control governments in this world.

Our position then is to deal with these multi-national .companies, as the minister has stated, in a way in which it will benefit the peo~le of this Province. It should be noted that many of these companies, like the seven sisters, are companies which are involved from the womb to the tomb, that is from the crude oil right to selling the gas into your car. Any many of the companies outside of these are companies which have no source ~f crude oil and therefore need a source of crude oil.

They are,_ therefore, prepared to go on to the less attractive places of the world in order to get a source of crude oil or to try to break into this tight closed circuit. And we must understand that, and we must, I feel, study that situation~ In fact all of us here should study that situation, because that is a situation that these companies have put this Province in. We must become educated legislators if we are going to handle our resources correctly and wisely and not make the same mistakes that we have done with so many of our resources in previous years.

So we must understand the reasons why these companies make the decisions they do. And I see the company making this decision on a threefold argument. First of all there is their own economic and technological argument, their own technological reasons why they would move elsewhere, 3750

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1362 Page 2 - ms Mr. Strachan. and we became familiar with that last year. And I think Eastcan's decision this year is just a further build up from last year's decision to go to Greenland. They are exploring in Greenland on the Western part of Greenland i n-relatively ice-free waters; that is waters free relatively so of icebergs compared to the Labrador · Coast where we are talking about exploring !~ _an-iceber-gall-ey:· - They- ar~e arso· exploring in an area which does not have the same wave activity as we have in Labrador. A much more gentle atmosphere in which to search for oil.

They are also caught in a situation in which there are only so many oil rigs in the world, and these oil rigs work on the basis of contracts. And as we witnessed last year, it is often difficult to get these companies to free the oil rigs . to come from, for instance, Greenland or from the North Sea or from Spain or wherever else ~t is for a short two month or three month season in. this Province, So these companies have difficulties in deciding exactly where to put their play, where to invest their money.

I think they are also faced with a decision in this Province that even if they did . find commercial finds of oil t~e technological problems that they face after that in getting it out give a long time span which would mean that the companies finding it. could not be guaranteed of getting it out very quickly. So to lose one year now is really not that important at the moment although every year counts. But to lose that one year will possibly give them additional assistance to develop a technology to get the oil out.

In comparison Greenland, if they did find oil in commercial quantities - I imagine in Greenland - and I am not being an expert on the matter - but I imagine in Greenland the method of 373i

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1362 Page 3 - ms Mr. Strachan. getting it out would be less hazardous than it is in this Province. Furthermore Greenland, as was stated by the minister the other day in response to questions that 1 raised, Greenland has a far tighter regime, a far tighter regulation than this .Province is imposing or sta~ng it may impose.

So why should companies move from the Labrador sea and move to an area off Greenland where they were very severely restricted in their drilling operations, and where they have to drill to 10,000 feet, t believe, for instance, that they have to drill down through different levels, whether the find gas and oil at the predicted level or not. If they only intend to_d~ilL to 4,000 thinking they will get oil there or 5,000 feet by seismic results, they must carry on drilling down, right down to 10,000.

And there are many other restrictions which Greenland has put on them; the restriction that only Greenland Air for instance, can carry them by- helicopter from their bases out to their _dr~.I:l ships. So we are faced in a situation -- --- . ----·---- - 375:2

March 29, 1977 Tape 1363 IB-1 'MR.. STRACHAN : in which the companies then have to decide either here or there. I think that they have made the decision to move there. In fact I think they may have made the decision last year or in light of last year. ~~at they were attempting to · do -and I understand the minister when he states so cannot state the same as I can - but I believe what the companies were trying to do was trying to play us i~ the middle of a chess game in which they were moving the pieces and they were hoping to catch us in the center in which we had nowhere to go but to capitulate.

I support the position taken by this government, I think the only position that any administration in this Province could take, that we are not pawns in a game, we own it. And if we o~m the resource, we therefore control it. These companies therefore must come to us we do not go to the companies. On t?P of that I have some questions which would be asked based on that. And I am also interested in why a company would move to Greenland and also continue to support bases in Labrado~ at Saglek, Hopedale and Cartwri~ht.

I am also interested to know why the companies would move to Greenland and· also build up some supplies at Hopedale. I ~m also interested to know why a company ~.rould move to Greenland and knowing it is. moved to Greenland would - . institute an airstrip at Saglek, a eo-plan system which is one of the most sophisticated landing devices in Canada. There are only two other such landing devices.

There is a broad beam scatter rather than the directional flight path used by most airports, used in do~~town Montreal and Ottawa for the STOL aircraft, the twin engine STOL aircraft. .And in Saglek I understand that thts was installed late last Fall and that is my understanding of hearing Department of Transportation people test it. So it makes one wonder why they invest that kind of money - and I understand it is only a pittance compared to their major investments - they invest that kind of money and yet state they are pulling out and now are pulling out. So I wonder what the other term plan is?

I wonder ~mat next year's plan is and the year after's and whether as such we cannot therefore put our position together and try 3793

~arch 29, 1977 Tape 1363 IB-2 :M"R. STP.ACF.J._N: to negotiate with them and find out where they are. ~. SPEAKEP: Order, please! I .should call to the hon. gentleman's attention the requirement that the comment aft~r a Ministerial Statement be brief. ------- - ------------- -----'\I realize th~ relativity of the term but presumably to the length of the }~inisterial Statement. And we it must be related are dealing with one of approximately ten minutes. In saying that I am not saying that he may not complete his remarks, I am just pointing out the necessity of bringing them to completion. MR.

STRACHAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The real problem with it is that it is a very complex subject and a very complex topic and a very important topic for this Province and so it is very difficult in a very short few minutes to try and put ourselves in perspective and in the picture. I realize that one can only talk for a fairly brief period of time but I think it is important that we in this legislature understand exactly the play that we are forced to be in and I was hoping to try and do that. I will very quickly then just draw up the couple of other points that I want to discuss.

The minister raised the point of the jurisdictional dispute. In that we have no argument whatsoever. As far as we are concerned and the ~..ray I feel about it strongly, is that we own the resource and if we own the resource we must therefore fight for the resource. And I see in the Chamber Mr. Cabot Martin is here and I understand he has been doing a great deal of work on this and I agree ~Tith that totally. }!y main questj_on is that after we get the resource we must be careful that ~..re do not concede the resource away in a system of concessions. Lastly the minister talked about oil and gas regulations.

He talked about the necessity to discuss these and have input from both the oi 1 companies and as ~·!ell from the general public. That is where I take the greatest exception, in that the general oublic has not seen these regulations anci I unclerstand the'l:'e are certain confidentj aJ it:i_;;s in t~e oi2 i~~ustrv ~ut I t~i~~ the first t~~nP that shnuld have heen dn~e

March 29, 1977 Tape 1363 IB-3 M:' .• STRACHAN: in the form of a white paper as is done with the ~ineral Acreage Act is to disclose to the public, to the people of this Province, the position the government is taking, not only disclose it to the companies and ask the companies for input and then to reject it on the basis that they do not want to have anything to C.o with it, but they should have been disclosed to the people so we could have had a look at it and seen what it was right from the start.

That is the only point that I really feel strongly about as I have mentioned before · in my questions in Question Period. And I think that should be done·. We. should not have to wait another·two weeks or three weeks. It should have been done a month or six weeks ago. As soon as the oil companies got it in their hands then we should have had it in our hands .to see exactly the position that we were placing this PTovince in. MR. ROBERTS : Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

March 29, 1977 Tape No. 1364 NM- 1 \:: "\now PRESENTING PETITIONS: SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, if I can get this sorted out - I beg leave to . present a petition on behalf of over 600 people in support of the workers from the Waterford ..... Hospital~- And in presenting this petition I am sure, as members would know, that I have never been party to - negotiations and in many cases I represent a Labrador district and therefore have little knowledge of the discussions and the debate going on between the Treasury Board and the hospital workers.

But nevertheless there are some points that we must become interested in. because this is) as I see it~ an ongoing part of the labour negotiations in this Province, labour strife in this Province.

The petition is for 600 people states, "That we the undersigned support the Waterford Hospital staff in their fight for a better pension plan, one comparable to the firemen, the constables and the warders, and for better working conditions and salaries. 11 I should indicate that I _have become informed that the workers have, over the last few days, offered a temporary pension plan to the Treasury Board rather than a permanent plan to cover the workers presently there. That is just to cover the workers who are employed now and not the workers who may be em~loyed at a later date.

And this was to try and step back from their position in order that Treasury Board would therefore make also another step to try and come closer together. This was rejected and rejected totally as I understandJ and it was rejected on the basis-and , I paraphrase here- but rejected on the basis that the Minister of Finance or the President of Treasury Board stated that it was not because was not justifiable and it was not because the monev was nnt ~~ere, it was because the people feel that their case is a justifiable

March 29, 1977 Cape No. 1364 NM - 2 MR. STRACHAN: case and if it is justifiable then the administration who do not want to deal vtith them, do not want to deal tvith them on the basis that this may snowball in the Province and that other institutions may also get onto this Same thing. That does not lessen the case of the people in Waterford. If their case is justifiable then their case should be settled as a justifiable case.

The fact that money is not available;they feel , very strongly that the_pe~ple who are working there,and I am not going to question the virtue of the people who are working there in the hospital, maintaining the hospital at the moment, but they are termed "scabs" in industry by labour workers.

The people · working there are being paid a considerable amount of money in addition and that money if it had been invested in a pension plan could have probably financed the pension plan for the f~rst ;ive years of i .ts term.. _ We also feel that many of the people working there I. will never see their full- term finished at work, that half of - thes -e - ' .. - - . - - . - - people ~re- women or men who may go on to other emplovmen~ elsewhere so that really you are talking about · a pension plan for 150 or so people and they feel therefore that their case is very justified and that they should come to terms and should negotiate this on that basis.

On a greater scene of .the labour scene, I think it is a matter that we have-adopted,an adversary _ system in our deal!.nS!:S with labour in that we do not regard labour as being an integral part of management and we therefore always force them into an adversary position and deal with them on that level. And I think that unless we change our attitude towards the labour of this Province, a fundamental change in attitude towards labour in this ProvinceJto understand that resources and capital and labour are equal and labour is not degenerate or lower then we will continue to have strikes.

So I suoport this petition, I would like to refer it to the department to which it relates. S0~1E RON. MEXBERS : Hear! Hear! .<1' ~ ~/ -;~: _:-J t_..; ~ ~

~rch 29, 1977 Tape No • . 1364 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. '-f MR . NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of all of us~ obviously>to support the petition and the one question that has been raised in the minds of many people, citizens who have participated through whatever form on this particular strike is this, that apparently if, if the situation is not as the employees in the Waterford Hospital have indicated, if they 3798

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1365 Page 1 - ms Mr. Nolan. are not in a position similar on occasion, perhaps many occasions, to a situatinn faced by either the policemen or the warders. Why is it that the administration found it necessary to man the hospital with the police? Why? Why not send t·he members of the House of Assembly in there and see what a mess they would make of it? It is as simple as that. Now as for the grounds that we -must be fearful that this pension situation may spread to other institutions is one that we cannot base it on.

Because if you look at the -whole pension scheme in Canada, there are those very _.wary._ for example~ about the Canada pension. Down the road someone is going to have to start to pay. It is also a well-known fact by those who have interested themselves , ~nou~h to take a _look at it that - and t am sure the minister would probably have more up-to-date figures on this than I do-- but ten or fifteen years hence the money is going to be flowing out a heck of a lot faster than it is flowing in unless something substantial is being done.

Now we have also heard the situation discussed when we were into the teachers' situation on their pension. So I ~afraid that it will not wash to say that, for example~ the employees · of another institution in this Province~ they, too, when they see the hospital workers at the Waterford getting certain pension rights and so on that it is going to spread like wildfire. You have to deal with every situation as it comes. When the policemen had their pension rights and so on, well that is fine.

There was no cry then that we must watch out for all the other institutions if they get it or the firemen get it or whatever. So now we have to judge the situation by those

March 28, 1977 Tape no. 1365 Page 2 - ms Mr. Nolan. that are presently in a very serious situation. They are now into the sixth week on this strike. Now, Mr. Speaker, the public generally are often times fed up with strikes, particularly-the references, I am sure you have heard publicly, about the post office strike and so on. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I wish to call to the hon. gentleman's attention, and in so doing I call to the attention of all bon. members that comments must be on the allegationsof-the petition which I understand to be a prayer for improved ~pension plan, working cOnditions and sala~ies, and no~ the overall labour situation or strikes or these matters. · The bon. member. MR. NOLAN: Yes, well I was attempting, Mr. Speaker, to ' point out the pension things as I saw them, as I moved along, because I think they are very relevant. I certainly respect and will honour your ruling obviously.

The only thing is I do not know if the Federation of Labour has taken a position publicly on this or not as yet, and if not we certainly ask the question, Why not? And the other thing is I am afraid, as in any strike, that the longer something goes on, tempers get up, people become firm in their positions on both sides, . -~~d·· we could very easily see other strike situations in sympathy throughout the public service if this is not brought to a head and very, very soon. We certainly suppor.t this petition, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my voice ~ to those who support this petition, and I support it in a general way. Certainly everyone would like to see - I think every member of this House would like to see - improved pension plans and

i March 28, 1977 Tape no. 1365 Page 4 - ms Mr. J. Carter. working conditions for the workers at the Waterford Hospital. At the moment it is a Mexican stand-off, and it has been going on now for over six weeks, or entering its sixth week. I have to ask myself though why the workers will not experiment with arbitration? And I would hope - I am not suggesting compulsory arbitration - I am just suggesting ordinary arbitration.

As I understand the process of arbitration the government appoints one member of the Arbitration Board, the union appoints another member - it has to be a member acceptable to the union - and then both of those members appoint a chairman who is acceptable to both sides. Now it may not work out. But I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that anything would be better than the present stand...,off, and I would respectfully suggest that this be seriously considered by the union, as I know it has been considered by the government. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support the prayer of the petition presented by the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), Sir • This strike now has been going on for about, oh, almost six weeks. It is a legal strike. The workers have every right to be doing what they are doing. They were given that right by this hon. House. · ---- - - - -- - -- ··-- .f"~ '=--:;. ~ .. ·~ V;....) .. -.4

March 29, 1977, Tape 1366, Page 1-- apb MR. NEARY: I do not understand the proposal that was just put forward by the previous speaker, Mr. Speaker, and I am not sure of the last proposal that was made by the Minister of Finance in connection with arbitration. The member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) says that the government would appoint one member, the union would appoint one member and they would get together and pick a chairman. Now I am not quite sure-if that was the procedure that was outlined or not. MR. ROBERTS: What happens if they cannot pick a chairman? MR.

NEARY: If. they cannot agree on a· chairman, of course, then will the government just foist the chairman? My understanding, Mr. Speaker, of the last round of negotiations was that the minister offered an arbitrator, somebody outside the Province altogether. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not right. MR. NEARY: Well that is what I heard on the radio. MR. DOODY: That statement is wrong. MR. NEARY: Well I would\like to hear what . was involved in the last negotiations. My understanding, Mr.

Speaker, is that the union were very flexible, that they had made a counter- proposal to the minister, the minister had requested clarification of some of the points in writing, and the negotiations started up again then all of a sudden came. to a sudden halt. Now, Mr. Speaker, I hope t~is is not a case of the government trying to starve the employees into submission as often happens in these negotiations. It would appear, Sir, that that is what is happening in this·case because- MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order, please!

I have to point out the same stricture as ""\I did previously, and that __ is the requirement that han. members stick with the material allegation of the petition. I did not ........._ " interrupt the han. gentleman when he had a few remarks on the arbitration. I realized the bon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) had mentioned it and I was waiting, expecting that

March 29, 1977, Tape 1366, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: this to be related to the allegation but,of course, the bon. gentleman then took his seat. But certainly the hon. gentleman should confine his remarks to the allegations and prayers of the petition. The bon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Well the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that the 600 or 700 people _that signed the petition support the workers at the Waterford in their fight to get improved pension plan conditions and better working conditions, Sir, and that -Mr. Speaker, the member for Kilbride (Mr.

Wells) is not in his seat again today but I have to repeat what I said a couple of days ago when I presented a petition on behalf of 2,400 citizens of this Province, that the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) presented a petition that was supported by members on e-ftfiE!r s-ide of the House asking for this very same thing. My hon. friend from Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) even supported the petition and ·said that the night before he had seen One !lew Over The Cuckoo's Nest and therefore he had nothing but sympathy for the people who were looking for the improved pension plan. AN HON. MEMBER: It' is on record. MR.

NEARY: It is on record. I have it right down here under my desk, as a matter of fact. Then we had the letter. Sir, this is something that I fail to understand, why the government is not honouring their commitment they made to the workers in writing. Now the minister can try to weasel his way out of it all he wants to by shifting his ground and saying, ' Well we made a proposal, but the proposal was only half a proposal. It is not a full proposal at all, Sir. and the government are not honouring their commitment they made in writing.

So I support the prayer of the petition, Si~; and I hope that the minister will - both parties for that matter - will try to resolve this matter as quickly as possible. It is certainly a great lesson in how not to conduct management- employee relations in this Province. 3on3 Q\}' :

March 29, 1977, Tape 1366, Page 3 -- apb SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as I rise to support the petition as indeed all hon. members of the House could not fail but support a pet~tion that asks for improved working conditions and salary benefits and air ~~~y~d~ p~~s±on _. plan for . the people a~ ~~terford, but I do so, Sir, with the knowledge that some o~ the points that have been raised from some of the other speakers, while undoubtedly well meaning, are not necessarily accurate.

I do not know if I am straying from the prayer of the petition, Sir, as I comment on them but l am in your hands on the matter. The offer that government made ~ day or so ago was to offer the union the option, if they wanted it, of submitting the pension .issue to binding arbitration. Now many people have interpreted that as saying that there would be somebody· from one side, from management side, somebody from union side and a jointly agreed on person and if we do not agree on it, what then?

Well first of all we have not tried . that approach and so it would. be premature to say that you cannot agree on some neutral outside observer. When I say outside observer, Sir, I do not necessarily mean outside the Province, I mean outside this particular dispute. If it has to be somebody from . outside this Province or outside the country I could not care less where he comes from as long as it is somebody who can get this thing settled and this strike finished and get this- as many people have said, it has gone ton far tOo long now. 3804

Yarch 29, 1977 Tape 1367 IB-1 MR. DOODY: Government is willing to submit it to binding arbitration. If that central part, the Chairman of the Arbitration Board>if it is a board that is agreed to and not a single arbitrator, if both sides do not agree to him then it can be referred to the Supreme Court and the justice or the judge of the Supreme Court can pick the arbitrator. ' This is a plan that is outside the act. This is something that we are willing to go along withr any way that can be found to resolve the :: situation. MR. ROBERTS: Is this part of the offer which the government made? YP..

I'OODY : This ~~s part of the plan that was put forward. ~·Thether it was - as the hon. II'Iember for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says, this is a lesson in how not to conduct negotiations because nobody -stays at the table long enough to get all the points out that are necessay to be gotten out~ ~-· NEARY: Would the minister permit a auestion? MR. DOODY: Certainly. ~- · NEARY: This is a matter of clarification. Is the minister saying a one man arbitrator or a board of arbitrators? MR. DOODY: We are easy. ~- NEARY: It is optional. You are open on it. MR. DOODY: That is right. That is right.

It is open to discussion and open to, you know, whichever way both people want to feel is most reasonable and most sensible ·. Why these other problems have not been resolved or why we have not offered to put the rest of them to binding arbitration is because we are not even sure that there is a problem with them. We had been told some time ago 1 admittedly, that if we could get the pension plan resolved then the hospital plan that has been accepted by the other hospitals could pretty ~rell fit into the Waterford situation. But ~re do not know if that is so or not because we have not had a chance to discuss it.

We have got to get the pension plan resolved first., apparently, before we can get around to discussing anything else. That puts us in a rather awkward position obviously and it is not one that we enjoy.

?~arch 29, 1977 Tape 1367 IB-2 ~-· DOODY: The most recent offer from the union in saying that they would be willing to accept a temporary plan which in effect takes into the plan all of the people v.>ho a.re requesting the pension, the maximum contact pay people - I want to be clear and fair on this and not try to mislead anybody - as of 1970 . as of the day of the strike and then later on we would werk on a permanent plan,down the road, next year's negotiations or whatever.

Well that is not a temporary plan , Your Honour. - That is a permanent plan that comes in on a temporary nature today including everything that the union originally asked for and th~n next year we sit down at the bargaining table with that in front of us and try to exclude three or four or five or six people who have been hired since. It just does not seem reasonable. And the union itself says that they have a right - and I do not blame them - to try to negotiate an- improved package next year. Of course they will.

So under these circumstances as hon. members of both , sides of the House have said and as people in the general public are saying we are at an impasse, at a stalemate, we getting nowhere, the strike has gone on too long. It is hurting too many people, inside the hospital and outside the hospital, strikers, everybody is affected. It is a terrible situation. And in order to resolve it we have said~ Look let us get somebody who is completely imparti~l and put it up to him and if he decides - ~- · NEARY: Or a board. JAR.

DOODY: Or a board and if he decides or they decide, it decides that the case that the Waterford people are putting forward is a fair and reasonable case government will live with _it. If they decide otherwise, then governm.ent will not live with it. SO}~ HON. ¥EMBEPS: Hear, hear! ~- · OOODY: Short of complete capitulation Which is not negotiation at all, I do not know where to go beyond that Your Honour. I honestly do not. He are getting boxed into a corner here now where these people who are on a legal strike seem to be almost inviting us to legislate

March 29, 1977 ~R. DOODY: Tape 1367 them back to work. And legislating people back to work in this IB~ day and age is retrogressive. It is not, I do not think in my own mind, going to really be the end solution to the problem. It may be a temporary solution to the problem but it certainly is not a permanent one. If the patient care situation deteriorates or if there is a state of emergency which occurs 7 this government has no option but to do the legislative route. But it is not one that we want to go.

We want to go through the negotiation route because that is what collective agreements, collective bargaining is all about. SO~ RON . MEMEERS: Hear, hear! ¥R. DOODY: I am informed that the five minutes has expired. MF .• ROBERTS: Extra time, agreed. ~. SPEAKER: Has the bon. minister leave? SOME RON. MEMBERS: By leave .. MR.. DOODY: Thank you. MR.- LUNDRIGAN: A sad sounding thump. MR. DOODY: Yes it is a sad situation. MR. RO~ERTS: It is not the government itself, it .. is the cheering secrion. MR. DOODY: Oh, I am sorry. MR. ROBERTS: The cheering

section is not very good. MR~ DOODY: As I say, 1-fr. Speaker - and I have said it before - to say that government,or the minister in this case who wrote the letter on behalf of government last year, dated July 7, is not honouring its obli2ation that it made in that letter, it is just unfair

March 29, 1977 Tape No. 1368 NM- 1 MR. DOODY: and untrue because I quoted from that letter before and it is on record and I will quote again. The operative clause in there that everybody agreed to, union, management, government and I say again, "In particular government recognizes the ' justification for revised pension benefits exists fo~ those employees of Waterford Hospital for the record of lengthy service comprised of constant involvement in the supervising and care of patients. 11 A commission wera jointly appointed to look into that.

They were not asked to come in unfortunately with a permanent decision, tell us that this is what it had to be and the report came back and it helped neither side and so we find ourselves now in this impass. There is no lack of good faith here.

I have said and I say it again on behalf of this government. that an arbitration system at this point in time seems to me to be the only route to go, the only sensible and reasonable route to go and I sincerely ask the strikers, who ··r know are on a legal strike and I respect them for it and I respect the way they have been conducting themselves, and I sympathize with them., I honestly do. But I have got a duty also, Sir. My duty is to the taxpayers of the Province.

And I am not going to make an arbitrary decision on the pension plan that may,and hon. members can say that you can take this one in isolation, that was all said back in the sixties under the contact pay thing. There is a letter on file signed by the then General Manager of NAPE undertaking that the contact pay situation would not spread. The letter is on file there. That gentleman's successor says that he is not bound by that letter. It has nothing to do with him at all. This is an entirely new set of circumstances, and that was years ago. And things have not changed since, Sir. People are still

1 March 29, 1977 Tape No. 1368 MR. -DOODY: going to fight for their rights and get the best deal that they possibly can. I cannot blame them. We all do that. But all I am saying is that in my responsibility in trying to protect the Treasury and the unit's responsibility in trying to get the best possible pension plan, there is obviously now an impasse and the NM- 2 way I look at that impasse, it would appear to be not one that we enjoy. I do not enjoy passing over the responsibility of the Treasury to an outside agency. It is a major concession and it is a precedent and it is a terrible one.

And I do not think that we particularly enjoy it. I do not think the union enjoys it either because they are taking away their bargaining rights and passing it over to an oustide agency. But both of us have go~ to give on this thing, Sir·, you just cannot let the situation continue the way it is and to me at the present time, short of legislation, I quite honestly do not know what else to do. SOME. RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, if I may say a word or two in support of the p"etition '"hich my friend from Eagle River presented, let me begin by saying I have long been of the opinion, Sir, that the petition procedure is probably the most useful procedure that we have in this House and I think the events that have transpired this last half an hour or so since my friend from Eagle River presented the petition show that.

I think . the statement ~ade by the Minister of Finance is a very helpful statement, as I understand it, and I think- I do not want to say whether it is a step forward or not because that would imply a judgement which I do not ~vish to make because I am not in a nosition to make it but I think it is a clarification which hopefully

?-".arch 29, 1977 Tape No. 1368 MR. ROBERTS: will produce some positive results. The situation, as I understand it, Mr. Speaker, the workers at the Waterford are on a lawful strike, whether that should or should not be a lawful strike is beside the point. It· is and I think we all admire-as the Minister of Finance just said,and it is a point we have made on this side before, Sir, we all admire the way in which this strike has been carried out. It has been a very difficult strike on both sides. It is much more difficult that even the normal and usual strike.

It has gone on for ·a very long time now, it· is into the sixth week. We are at a complete impasse. The government and the hospital ward on one side and the anion local on the other are - daggers drawn. This phrase,which is a new NM - 3 one to me,of a Mexican standoff 7which I assume means the same thing,that really nobody is going anywhere and what we foresaw at the start has now happened, it is very unfortunate, a complete loss of face is what one side or the other is threatened with and the trick is to try to avoid this and' I think the statements made by the Minister of Finance may very well help to that end.

There is no need for humiliation. There is no need for abject capitulation, that is not going to help anybody because of course, Sir, when the strike is over, as it will be, as the minister juat said, you know the union and the management have to go on working together. So I would

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1369 Page 1 - mw MR. ROBERTS. I hope, Sir, that now that the minister has clarified the position - and I had understood that the offer had been made of a normal arbitration - in other words, each side naming a person and if the two could not agree on a third, then the Minister of Manpower in the normal course - MR. DOODY: There is nothing wrong with thiscertainly MR. ROBERTS: No, but I mean I had only understood what I had known. I was not privy to the negotiations. The House has not been told to this point and so I had na way to know.

The minister has now made it clear that, you know, the ministry are open and that, in effect ., they have now made a public offer here where it should be made~on the floor of the Legislature,that if the union are willing to accept any reasonable,workable form, not of compulsory or binding arbitration, . I ~not sure that that is what the minister had in mind, but it may be what he had in mind - MR. DOODY: Compulsory aribtration. MR. ROBERTS: - or binding arbitration even - I do not even know if I would go that far, because I have the minister's doubts, .

I have long had them,__;_~at _ the --minister and his colleagues - - ·- . - - .. are responsible to this House and thus to the people of this Province to bring in even a three man committee, and to give them the power to sort of do as they would with the treasury . of the Province is something that has never appealed to me as a concept. And I like the collective bargaining proces ~ and I regard a strike as being a normal part of the collective bargaining process. It might not be the nicest part, but it is certainly a normal and an acceptable part of the process.

As I understand it what the minister has said now is that if the union say, Loo~, let us agree, each of us will put up one member, and if the two members together cannot agree on a third person, we, the government, will undertake

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1369 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. to appoint, because we are under the Civil Servi .ce Collective · Bargaining Act, and as I recall it that does not have the provision for reference to a court - but in any event we will undertake to ask the Chief Justice, who is a busy man these days, or a judge of the court, somebody neutral and impartial,to name the third member of that board. And whether the power appointment is with the judge or with the minister, it does not matter. If it is the minister he will appoint whomever is recommended.

And presumably the terms of reference should include not only the pension issue, but all the other issues. If there is going to be little difficulty in.settling them, then you might as well get them settled that way. , If the two parties, a conciliation board or a - MR. DOODY: We do not know yet. MR. ROBERTS: No. The minister says he does not know or not, nor does anybody! But the fact remains that this board is an advisory proceeding by its very nature,and thus each side will have the opportunity to present its case, and the board will make a ruling upon it.

I think, Sir, that would be a considerable step forward. I would not suggest it be binding, because either side would have to reserve the right to say, No, if the recommendations - remotely, remotely possible, but it is possible-that the recommendations were that far out of line . But if either side turned down the recommendations without the very best of reasons then I think the force of public opinion would be very strong, and would make itself felt very effectively.

Well, Sir, it seems to me that the minister's offer, as I now understand it, which is a different one, I confess, than I understood from reading the newspapers two or three days ago

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1369 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. reporting on the weekend meeting, the minister's offer, Sir, I think, is a step in the right direction. I will say a step forward, but I say again I am not implying any judgement on any previous position. I think it is a step in the right direction, Sir. I ~hink it is a positive step. I hope it will meet with positive response or a better response, a bet~er suggestion if one can be made. Because, Sir, I am growing increasingly concerned, as I think all members of the Rouse are, with the situation.

It is just going from bad to badder, to baddest, and eventually will get to worstt. And, Mr. Speaker, that is not a very pleasant thought. Any hospital is of vital importance to the people who must look to it. But, Sir, the Waterford Hospital is unique and cannot be replaced in this Province. It is the only institution that can cope with the type of medical disability that is present in the patients who are referred there.

The pressures are beginning to build~! am told by my friends in the medical profession and my friends in the hospital, and so it is imperative, I think, that this strike be settled as quickly as possible on a fair and an equitable basis.

So I, Sir, hope that this suggestion, as the minister has now explained it, which is a different one than I understood . - it may not be different than the minister had put forward, but certainly different than the public understood-with the third man, the third person being, you know, a neutral appointment as opposed to the appointment of even a man as estimable as the Minsiter of Manpower - MR. DOODY: It may be a different plan. MR. ROBERTS: Right. Well I mean, I do not know. But the fact remains that the ministry are open

March 29, 1977 Tape 1370 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: remains that the ministry are open, and that is to me a considerable . ray of' light,. and I hope it will produce a positive response, Sir, - · ·---··-- because while ·the union have a lawful right to strike, and the government have both the lawful right and the duty to ensure that their settlement, the settlement on this is, you know, proper taking into account a lot of factors,.

Sir, nobody, nobody has the right to make those patients suffer, and nobody should allow them to suffer, and we have to ensure, Sir, that in exercise, this is a very fundamental principle of democracy, and I will close on this note, Sir, that in exercising any right given to anyone that we do not have the right to hurt anybody else, As a very famous judge onee said, Sir, I believe it was Mr. Justice Holmes of the American Supreme Court,"The right of free speech does not include the right to cry fire in a crowded theatre." Well, Mr.

Speaker, that same thing could be applied here; the right to strike,or the right to resist a strike on the government's part,that, Sir, does I not imply the right to have anybody suffer · unduly or unnecessarily. He may be coming to that point, Sir, so I hope we can now get away out of this impasse and have the matter settled fairly and equit~bly·. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. minister I would draw to the attention of hon. members the presence in the Legislature this afternoon of some representatives of the Town Council of Bay de Verde, Mayor Blundon and Councillors Noonan, ~oyle and Barter. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these gentlemen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned yesterday in the House of Assembly,my deputy minister yesterday met with the NAPE unit presently on strike at the \-.Taterford.

He. spent some time dis~ussinp; t!"le problems with theTI, -~ - s a matter of courtesy as I

March 29, 1977 Tape 1370 PK - 2 Mr. Rousseau: mentioned yesterday,consideration was given to various things, and I think we have a reaction from NAPE. And as I mentioned yesterday my colleague, the Minister of'Finance.was out of the Province~ We have been talking this morning and hopefully sometime this afternoon we hope to get together.

And the only position we can maintain in the Department of Labour in its effort to try and maint~in ?:~~;rality insofar as clearing away the underbrush is now, and that is really what is there now, underbrush---to get the issues out of the way so actual face to face negotiations on something can take place. There has to be some way in which both sides sitting down can come up with some situation whereby the strike can be resolved. I agree with all han. members here that six weeks is a long while for a strike. Obviously both sides feel very strongly and believe in their position.

I would certainly hope this afternoon later on as I said to meet with my colleague and discuss the reaction we had yesterday from the NAPE unit. I am certainly prepared in ' conjuncti.on with my deputy minister to sit down and convene · a face to face meeting, and if both sides are prepared to do that to clear away the underbrush so that we can at least come up with the broad terms of reference in which then some negotiations of some sort can proceed.

So we are certainly prepared to do that from a Department of Labour point of view, and I would cer'tainly say that I look forward to, I hope, a situation whereby we can get to the table and hop~fully,with the assistance of people from the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations~can come up with some final - - - -conclusion in respect to this very long strike that now seems to have solidified and crystalized on both sides. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member from St. George's. "' MRS. H. { point. I think MACISAAC: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to make one The Minister of Finance when he spoke said that it appeared- I will quote him correctly- "That it appeared to him that possibly the strikers \vere inviting government to legislate t~-:.em

}ol:arch 29, 1977 Tape 1370 PK- 3 Hrs. Macisaac: back to work." I think I understood him correctly. I would just like to say that I would not like to see it go that far, but I do feel from talking to the strikers that they have their own feelings on that situation, that they feel that gpvernment is just waiting for an incident, waiting for an opportunity to legislate them back to work. And I felt that I had to make this known to the m~ister because I have talked to quite a few of the strikers, and I am s·ure that is tne getteral feeling.

But I am sure from what the minister said that negotiations will. be going on again, and this thing should be resolved quite soon. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member from Kilbride. MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a word in connection with this esl>e~-~~lly. because a great many of those who are involved in this particular strike reside in the district which I represent, the district of Kilbride. I

March 29,1977 Tape 1371 AH-1 MR. WELLS: Now the strike has gone on for a long time and all of us who are concerned,and anybody in the Province who is concerned with the service provided by the Waterford on the one hand,and also with the rights and duties of those who work at the Waterford is concerned with ~ it~~d regrets 'that negotiations have not gone on on a continuous basis. It is certainly not my· position to apportion blame and I think it would be futile· and stupid for anybody at this stage of the game to say : ~ this one is at fault or , that one is at fault.

I think what 1-1e have got to do is to look forward rather than backward and try to find a way out of the impasse. Now the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board has suggested various alternatives at various times to NAPE and these have been rejected ;or various reasons. Now he has made another one,I understand this afternoon. The question of arbitration, binding arbitration has been raised~ and that I understand is not satisfactory to the union.

There· is another approach which I would suggest for the consideration of both parties ,and I raise it because experience·rand experience of any of us who have had anything to do with labour-management - relations~has shown that a conciliation board is sometimes a very useful tool. Now I think that conciliation did take place in the earlier stages, I believe with the minister of these negotiations. But I understand that that was a conciliation officer,and in my experience the quality of the members on a conciliation board sometimes and often determines what the value of the board is going to be.

So if nothing else, if no other solution can be found now, in the next day or two,I would like to suggest for consideration of the minister,and consideration of NAPE also~that a conciliation board be appointed by mutual consent to try to help the parties reach agreement. The conciliation board 1vould consist of a member appointed bv the union,and a

March 29,1977 Tape 1371 AR-2 MR. WELLS: member appointed by the government~and a member agreed to by both sides. - ~~ PON. MmfBER: That is hP-fnTA the - MR. WELLS: I know that is before. I know that full well. I know the provisions in the labour relations act just as well as the hon. member. But what I am suggesting is Sorry? MR. MURPHY: How would that differ from what we are talking about now? MR. WELLS: The arbitration board actually comes to a decision; it is like a court. But the conciliation board ~vorks with the partfes to see if they can help them to rea~h an agreement.

Now my suggestion is that although the normal time · for conciliation is- 'jiSt - ·: yet we are not now in a normal situation.

And I would like to see,if the arbitration route is not acceptable, like to see a conciliation board set up by mutual agreement between the parties·,even at this stage,and particularly I would like to see the chairman of such a board be not a resident of Newfoundland but a very, very., . eminent person, and there are many such persons in Canada, .. familiar with labour relations and also familiar with hospitals, and particularly familiar with mental -hospitals across this Province - across this country.

And there are such persons and I would like to see such a person be nominated as chairman of this board, a man completely outside the Newfoundland scene with all the difficulties, you know~and the knowledge, the unfortunate knowledge of this particular strike. But a man fresh to it with impeccable credentials and with tremendous clout,and I think that a board set up in that fashion, that set to work with the parties to try and help them reach an agreement might find a way, at least I think it is an avenue of approach. Because we cannot go on this way indefinitely.

March 29,1977 Tape 1371 AH-3 MR. WELLS: the parties have got somehow to get together; somewhere, somehow this strike is going to be settled one way or another. Six months from now, a year from now the people are going to be back at the Waterford working. So it is only a question really, Mr.

Speaker~ difficult though it is, of how ~·7e get to that point,and I would suggest if the parties dq not want ·to · submit to arbitration and have it decided "..as it ~Y'ere,by a court, or a court~like body,to have three eminent people familiar with this , selected by the ~arties and the chairman agreed to, and be a non-Newfoundlander, someone completely outside, with tremendous clout and knowledge to help the parties try and arrive at an agreement.

Because I have seen many cases where conciliation boards worked with parties and the matter went on as high as three and four weeks and you never thought that an agreement was going to be reached. Yet by the officers of the board comprised of the right kind of people sometimes it can be done. And I think we all have an obligation, both the government and the union and all of us who are concerned about it, to use every effort to try and get something going which will result in the solution to this particular strike.

t March 29, 1977 Tape no. 13 72 Page 1 - MS MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have not spoken in support of either one of the petitions that have been put : forward on the Waterford Hospital, and I have never been a member of a union although I have a wife who, I believe, is supporting it, and tells me every night that I should make a statement on it.

I must say that I appreciate the difficulties the workers have faced in this particular dispute, particularly since it is one of the strange circumstances where the people are on strike and yet other p_eople are doing their work. And I do believe that the government must take steps, that this thing must be over with. We have sitting with it for six weeks, and there are only tw points that I want to make. One is that I can _say to_ the strikers that my colleagues.on this side of the House- and this is the first time I have spoken - have taken this in a very responsible -­ manner.

And the members who represent the areas on this side of the House have certainly,ever since this strike started, have been asking questions, have been prodding and have followed the thing very closely, much more closely than I have been, having been from the West Coast. The other thing I would like to say is that there must be a way in which - if it has to be an outside negotiator, if it has to be an impartial cha±rman or whatever it has to be - something must be done. I mean~we are in a situation now where we have the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations trying to negotiate with them.

At the same time as Minister of Public Works, I suppose, he was the man who issued the order:to put them out of Confederation Building. Now I could be wrong on those facts, but these are the sort of negotiations that are going on. And, you know, something has to be done to settle this strike, and I hooe that something happens verv, very quickly, and I support the petition.

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1372 Page 2 - MS MR. • SPEAKER: The bon. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I rise for the record to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan). I had hoped to speak previously on this topic but unfortunately I was not addressed enough in the particular sides of the argument. However, after reading all the pertinent information,I can find two things, one which I can understand and one which I cannot understand.

The one which I can understand is that I know now the reason why the public opinion, the people of this-Province, are in favour of the workers and are presently anti-government. In reading the presentation given by the union in The Evening Telegram this weekend, I cannot understand, Mr. Speaker, why the government of this Province did not initiate a pension plan for these people. The pension plan as outlined in the paper must be one of the most ridiculous in this·nation let alone in this Province. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, p~ease!

I must point: out to the hon. gentleman that entering ~nto the area of debate is prohibited even under present procedure where there is quite broad comment on the allegation. The hon. member. MR. R. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will certainly abide by your ruling and perhaps was getting a little into the : realm of debate. I urge the government of this Province to get back to sensible negotiat~ons. I do not beliave in binding arbitration.

If you place the idea of the warderslpension and the need for it for the workers, against the needs of maintaining Treasury Board regulations or public financing in this Province,they do not stand a chance. Binding arbitration invariably in most strikes comes out in favour of the employer, and

March 29, 1977 Tape no. 1372 Page 3 - MS Mr. R. Moores. not the employees. Get back to sensible negotiations and get this matter cleared up to the advantage of all the people involved, especially the patients. Thank you. SOME RON. ' MEMBERS: ~ear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition, an entirely different type of petition,on behalf of sixty-seven residents of the community of Paradise River on the Labrador Coast. The direct jurisdiction lies outside the present administration, the administration of this Province.

It is recognized that the administration can have some affect on this issue. The petitioners are asking for a television reception at the community of -Paradise Riv~r ~ As of February of this year Cartwright, the community of Cartwright, with a population. of l,Ooo.received television for the first time. ,- · ----- ------

~arch 29, 1977 Tape 1373 IB-1 ~. STRACHAN: The community of Paradise River about twenty miles away understood that they were to receive television. But as it turned out,when the televisio~ signals came through the microwave,that the signal emitted by the transmitter at Cartwright was not powerful enoug~ to recieve the signal in Paradise River. They had at that point bought television sets in view of the signal being received in Paradise River. Fortunately the company who sold them the sets took the sets back.But they are asking that the transmitter at Cartwright be redirected and possibly the output increased.

We are asking that the Minister of Transportation and Communications under his jurisdiction will apply pressure on the CBC directly within this Province to ask the CBC to carry ou~ field strength signals at the community of Paradise River in the Summer so they can test the strength of the signal at Paradise River and if possible the community are prepared - and I repeat this - the community are prepared to build a community antenna themselves which will recieve the signal which will then be piped to their homes in Paradise River.

So the community on one hand are asking for something~ but on the other hand they are prepared to assist in the building of the community antenna. ~~e understand that the transmitter at Cartwri~ht has not been set properly because of the Winter, the late finishtng date in February. .t\.nd this year has been an extremely mild year on the Labrador Coast '-1:tth a great deal of ice-up of all antenna systems, and that the s:i gnal received by Cart"•right is not up to the CP_TC standards.

But Ne are asking that as soon as the transmitter is set in its final position that the community of Paradise River be taken into consideration in the setting.of the position so that the community may be able to receive the signal as tested by field strength signals and be therefore able to build a co~~unity antenna and therefore get televj_sion to the comi!Iunity of Paradise 'Piver. I support the nraver of the netition. I think the cnr'U"uPitv'l<tlthou~b rnlv Jess than 10n . coes ba•.re a righ.t to co~nnic3.tions.

l ~arch 29, 1977 Tape 1373 IB-2 MR. STRACHAN: do have a right to see the same as all else in this Province. And I support their petition and refer it to the department to which it relates. SO}!E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! }fP_. SPEAKER : The hon. member for ~askaupi. MR. GOUDIE: ~r. Speaker, I cannot add very much really in supporting the petition presented by the member for Eagle River (~r.

Strachan), just to add that I am quite familiar with the area of Paradise River and , its proximity to the area of Ca~twright, the lack of communic~tions which have existed there traditionally apart from a radio signal which had been going into that area for a number of years. I think it all ties in to the lack of communications traditionally in particularly the Southern Coastal

section of Labrador·. And we in Labrador consider -the Southern Coast,t~ start more or less at Cartwright and go right down to the L'Anse-au-Clair area. But certainly with the television - -· -- being installed at Cartwright~and a community being so near _ by, the community of Paradise River,! think it is encumbent around the CBC and anyoneelse in the Provtncial Government who is concerned with communications to take action to see that certainly this community receive the same coverage that the nearby community and other communities in Labrador are receiving. I support the prayer of the petition, ~.fr.

Speaker. ¥.R. SPEAKER: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. ¥R.ROBERTS: ¥r. Speaker, I would like to say just a word or two on the petition which my friend from E-agle Piver presented. Yay I begin by saying I support it,Sir. Paradise River,as my friend has said,is quite a small community. Relatively iso~ated, there is no road to the community and it is located about fifteen miles from Cartwright, fifteen or tT,renty miles fro'[Tl Cart~"right .. and one has to go up Sand~vich Bay by water in the summer and in the Winter you can go back and forth by skidoo.

It is obviously a very undesirable situation, Sir, that these people should have no access at all to teJevision services. J:t is >-.a(! enough that mnst o-f th.e people T sav

~arch 29~ 1977 Tape 1373 LB-3 MR.ROEERTS: most; there is the odd very unusual freak reception coming through. But almost all of the people who live in northern Newfoundland and in all parts of Labrador have no access at all, at any time~ under. any conditions~ to the second television -service. But,, Sir, most of the people who live in _Nortb~rn Newfoundland, in my district, for example, and Southern Labrador,part of which of course

March 29, 1977 Tape No. 1374 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: is in the Straits of Belle Isle district, most of those people have access to at least one television channel, the CBC channel. It has done nothing for Peter Gzowski's popularity because people feel they should not have to watch him every night,as my friend from Menihek (Mr. Rousseau) pointed out the other night. But the fact remains that the people in Western Labrador or the people in St. Anthony or in Flowers Cove or in L'Anse-au-Clair can at least watch the CBC, they do have one television service. The people in Paradise River have none at all.

That deprivation is made all the worse because of the fact that the people there understood, I do not know from whom and obviously they did not understand correctly or they were not informed correctly,but they understood that they'were to get television reception at the same time as the CBC service was provided to the nearby community, the only nearby community. of Cartwright itself. , Well, Sir, the request of the petition I think is reasonable.

It possibly in part at least should be directed to Ottawa, but in part at least, Sir, it could be directed to the Government of this Province because, Sir, the government of this Province has helped in the past, has helped communities to get community antennas which as my understanding of the proposal in Cartwright has helped them to get these community antennas which are then licenced by CRTC and carry on in a normal way. I think that in the district represented by my friend from St.

Mary's -The Capes there are a number of community associations that have ~een formed, banded together,to get a licence for an off air receiver and then I believe they have cable running into the homes,and these associations now, I only know of two or three of them, but I understand there are others, but I know of two or three at first hand which were given grants by the old Department of Community and Social Development. It is not a lot of monev, S5,000, ~10,000 maybe but it is a lot for neonle to raise. It is not a lot for government to q;ive.

r Harch 29, 1977 Tape No. 1374 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: So I would suggest, Sir, very strongly that kind of suggestion be looked at with respect to the people in Paradise River. It is a permanent settlement. It has been there for a long time. It is obviously going to be there,and so it should be,for many years yet to come. We hear a great deal about Labrador in the House, Sir, much of it of a different order, if not a different nature~than the problem brought forth by my friend from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), but it is a problem on which the government can-help and I would very earnestly. Sir~ hope that they do.

The return they would get in providing an improved service for citizens of this Province would be a very great one in contrast to the expenditure which would be incurred. I support the petition, Sir, and I do hope the government this year will make it possible to ?elp these people in this way. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for L~oile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want to take a few moments to support the prayer of the petition, Sir. This is a problem that is prevalent not only in Labrador but throughout the whole of the Province, Sir.

Here on the Island of Newfoundland we have a similar problem along the Southwest Coast where people can only get one channel on teleVision and that is full of snow. We cannot see it, down in LaPoile and Grand Bruit and Petites, they get one channel, Rose Blanche, Burnt Islands, Isle aux Morts. AN HON. MEMBER: It is like you are in a blizzard. MR. NEARY: And it is like you are in a blizzard when you are watching it, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I have a suggestion to make to the administration. The ~inister of Transportation and Communications is not here.

But I do not ~now if it is a uractical idea or not~but it is certainly one that should be looked into and that

March 29, 1977 Tape No. 1374 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: is, Sir, that the Minister of Transportation and Communications look into the possibility of the government putting up the - what are they? AN HON. MEMBER : Relays • MR. ~~Y: Relay stations, the government putting up the relay stations and leasing them back to the television media. MR. H. COLLINS: It was in the Throne Speech in 1966. MR. NEARY: It was in the Throne Speech in 1966? MR. H. COLLINS: Yes. MR. NEARY: You mean when the former Liberal Administration was there? MR. H. COLLINS: Big promise. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I did not even know it was there.

But if it was there it was certainly a good suggestion, Mr. Speaker, and one that should be reactivated. Let the government put U"P the satellite stations or the repeater stations or relay stations, whatever they are, and let them lease them to the television stations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. NEARY: And that is the only way, Hr. Speaker, that you are going to get full coverage of television in my opinion in this Province,because the private station is not prepared to expand this year. I have gone into it with Mr. Geoff Sterling of the Newfoundland Broadcasting Company.

I cannot find out what the other crowd are up to, the public media, the CBC. I have written them several times and I finally after several months managed to drag an answer of him. But I still do not know what it is they are going to .do.

But no matter what they do we are still not going to get full coverage,and I believe the .Premier should take a look at that suggestion of mine of putting up - let the government · put uo the stations and then lease them to the - after all~if you can make a killing on cable television you should be able to make a few bucks of leasin ~?: these reneater stations to not only the cable television neonle but to

March 29, 1977, Tape 1375, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: the Newfoundland Broadcasting Company and the C.B.C. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR.. ROUSSEAU: Just a few words, Mr. Speaker. I certainly would like to add my support to my friend from Eagle ~River (Mr. St rachan}. With the long nights in Labrador, tel~ision \s very important t o the people up there. I think it is unfortunate, and I would think that probably the problem with the case and with 'the area is that the C.B.C!s accelerated ~overage plan is what they are going to follow. MR.

ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, to a point of order -. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. ROBERTS: · I. do not, above all, want to interrupt the bon. gentleman, but, Sir, there is some sort of gabfest going on over here between my friend from Kilbride (Mr. Wells) and __ _ ~fr~~~'!, from Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). ·and the gentleman from Grand Fall& (Mr. Lundrigan). The' are talking or laughing quite loudly and it does prevent us from hearing what the gentleman from Menihek (Mr. Rousseau) is saying. Surely, Sir, the gentleman . from Menihek has the right to be heard in silence.

MR.· SPEAKER: I must direct · hen. gentlemen to my-. left to keep their tones down. The hon. minister. MR.. ROUSSEAU: As I was saying there, Mr. Speaker, the CBC's accelerated coverage plan, of course, nor hell nor high water is going to make them move from the time table they have on that. And I would assume that that being the case there as I found in my year and a half in Communications . but certainly I do support the prayer of the petition and I would hope that the people of Paradise as well as the other people in Labrador who do not have the luxury of television

t March 29, 1977. Tape 1375 RH - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: that everybody along the Coast would have it pretty soon. I think it is very . important to them. It is very important to many-:people in the isolated communities of this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, very briefly so I will not get my hon. friend opposite upset because I know we have gone on a bit long, bUt ~:.:_ there are a couple of things that occur to me.

Item one is the suggestion perhaps that maybe the Premier might be good enough to ask a_ small group in the House to take a look at the situation where there is or are problems with television reception. PREMIER MOORES: A committee of one. MR. NOLAN: Pardon? ~REMIER MOORES: A committee of one. MR. NOLAN: Well. if the Premier feels that I will be all right as a committee of one,I would certainly accept the commission. And I think the Premier knows me well enough to know that I would attempt to do a good job. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR. ROBERTS: Leaving for Paradise in the morning. MR.

NOLAN: Now ! . move to my sometimes referred to socialist ideas. And I have often wondered, Mr. Speaker, with the problems we have I with communications here, I wonder if some of the more radical members of the Cabinet perhaps when it was discussed originally, particularly in view of all the publicity on cable television and the fortunes that are to be derived therefrom, I wonder if they ever looked at the possibility of having a public group, hopefully impartial, applying for these stations? The Minister of Justice is about to go through the walls because I am beginning to attack the capitalists.

March 29, 1977. Tape 1375 RH- 3 MR. HICKMAN: (First

part inaudible) get after you. MR. NOLAN: I do not care who gets after me, Mr. Speaker. It does not bother me. All I am saying is - MR. HICKMAN:. There is no need to try, though. MR.. NOLAN: Just listen for one moment, ~r. Speaker.

I know you are very attentive, ~u~ I wonder if it is possible for anyone to imagine what would have happened if, for example, if it is the ol d mine that some people suggest with the great bind that the municipalities are into and I would think after the government continuously for more and more money for one service or anothe~, why the funds could not - if it is, if in fact it is the : ~ol~ mine that we have been told that it is - why, for example, it could not have been a great help to the city of St.

John's, why the·monies derived from the town of Mount Pearl could not have gone to the people of Mount Pearl and into that municipality, why the town of Conception Bay South,where money is derived therefrom, if it is the ,__gpJ_A_ mine ·, could not go into Conception Bay South and eventually would spread throughout the Island? I mean,is that such a revolutionary idea? I mean ;is that an attack on capitalism'? MR. ROBERTS : They are doing it in Saskatchewan. MR. NOLAN: They are doing it in Saskatchewan.

Well~I mean surely , over there somewhere on the other side there must be some people who have given some consideration to that. And, you know, we are into a new era. I mean,if this is - I mean,we have h8d Lord Thompson saying that having -a~ - t_e~evision license "is f:i.ke have a license to print money. Well,you may not want to go in. I am not suggesting that government, by the way, get involved in this, not one way. But I would think that you would have ta have a very, very good group to operate it. And it would not be used obviously for political purposes by any group. But

March Z9 ~ 19-77 T.a:pe .!.376 PK - 1 :ir. Nolan: I am t:hink5'..ng <Jt the ft::nds that (:o-~ld have b·~~n derived ::here":rcm ':;-..~t cotJld h'.aVE' goo.e to help ~ffset Some tre.a.-nendou~ e.xpe":l.s£:5 that nuni.c.:~"F · alities or t:1e Pr:Y7:!.I'.ce or whatever ar.e faced w.:.:t:. t·.);hy • .bn;i : suggest t.:; ::rot ti:a.-c no 011e - maybe I would net. ce so bold as to sugges~ !h~t maybe co one el.Ee in this B.ouse thoarl::.t of J.,: - I certainly ~.id and.

C.iscu3seci :.t ~i~h a. number of people, but t!le thing :;,.;:; :::..£ yo~ i:id. you ce't'tainly dici not express i-c, at leas'!: not in this So T ~nly me:r:. tion ic , Nr. Speaker, and if the Pram.ier ';1c:;uld l:"..ke ::n set t!p the COilll!littee I ·suggested, ~-.e are prepared CO UleHt"> Hear, hear! fi.R. :lOBEm:S : H~ar, hear! Well said. MR. SPEA .. XER.:: Tr.E hou. member frcm St. George's. ~.S • H. 1 W:I Sfo.;.AC; Mr. Speaker, : ".;'Ould like to add my S'.l?PO!'t to thi;; pe_:t::...~ion for Labrador. I feel that Lab·.cado::- is isola tee enough .~s it is sd cer1:ai~ly tel~vision is not toc~.y a luxury.

I s:y!npathize w-:.:~ them hecans.e in rFJ cistrict, and I tni:1~ that j'\lst abou~ every petiti~n ~_a~ ~s p~~sented and ~qe:~ problem that :ames up I caa s~nd up md sa-;~rn my di.strict the same thir.g exists.

But in my iis:rict in the Cc.i..r"'y Va.iley area I know -.:hat the s.i.:uation :.s ~ith rEspect tc telev·isicn ccverage, two d:anneJ.s ., and ouitd a fe\'7 of -::!1e 1Jenple :1:&. !"..hat area are not able to get the reception at all; some of ~hen get roe channel. scnr.e of them are gett:ing p!'E!tty ~ood co·Je:rage 0~ ~oth, cnc in other area~ ~hey do ~ot have any televisicn ~over~ge So I c::rtainly sympethize "lith the people in thc.t a:::-e.a anli I he~. tt_.a.t san:ething can be d.cne to alleviate their proble:111s. Than:::. ycu. E~ar, b.e.a.r! ~iS"''"ERS TO ODEST::ON5 FOR ~.fi:iiCH ~~OTIC~ HAS EEEN GHTI

March 1), 19 77 :ape 137(:. PK - 2 MR. liT.ARY : ¥r. Sv~:~ker, r-~:-r I r· ~mind the Mir-.ister. of Justice he rr~oise;d to ~et scm.: ir, f:>nna~ion fc-:: yesterday on the fishery .';can :i.o:.l • T:le minister was gobg to give ne the ans·;oer tocay. Sum: 'nON. KEMBE~S : M~. SPEAKER: Tc.e hon. Miuiste=. cf MuLicipal Affairs and Eous::.ng, LTilli: Mr. Spe·ake : , :mswers to Q-;1estion · No. 7, the hen. mere'be-: from Bellevue •.Hr. Callan) , · Crders of the D.e.y, February 3 ~ 1 '"'77" th 1- • • • ' f . 11 . il, d d . _.} , ,e n"-llllL-E:!' .=.na J..f"Cat~ons o artes:1an we s d.::' .... e urJ..ng 19?6. ~- .

ROBERTS : I :1m sorry tt is net going to be tai:led? The bon. gentleman L~ gc~~ tc table the list? MR .. DINN: Yes. AK HOH, ~.mMJE~. : There is !ots of time. MR. 1JOODY: ro, ·no. DTI~<: Okay, I "~11 just table them, Mr. Speaker. MR. MUR:!?SY; Ir.. the 1Tie3.n'til:;le I wo~.:ld like to h2ar them. _;;ONE· EON. T®!EERS : Oh, oh; ::1~. RZ.CK~1A.'i: .Hr. Speaker, I table t:te ansYer to QuestiQ:l No. - SJ~ RON. HENEERS: Oh, oh! MP. _ S?Ef..KER: ~e han. ~iuister ~i ~unicipal Affairs. the ;:>oin-;:. M~. DUrN: ~hat·r -- ---·- · - -· MR..

R0BEP..'fS : I :.ave a pciot of crd~r ~ if the min1ster would grant me .·c...'le leave to make the point cf orce-:- " I t:hir.k he would agre~ with it~ I ~ trving ~o h£1? him fr~ h~s cw~ =apacio~s ~olleague tbe:re, I ho?~ re2lly· - Sir. I meat! I kno"N the.y a:-e anxicus to giva us answers on. the ctl:.er si6e fo-r .s cnange, i::lut surely - the Minis::~r. of ~unicip&l Afiairs 3h~uld be all~~ad to finish tabling whatever answ~rs ne hc:s · ta. blf~<l bafore tlu~ ,~l . Lniste.r of J.Isti.:e o.ttEmp ts to cut him off. SC'MF. F.ON. :-fEMo~Ji..S: H-ezr, b.ear!

SFEAKEa: Tne pcir..t cf crder is -.:vell t:-1-.er .. ?ECKI'CRl':

Harch -;a -- ' 1977 1',;;pe 1376 FK - 3 MR. S?E.\KER: The pcint has alreadv been ruled on. SCiE RON. MKMBERS; Haar • he<-1:::-! ~m. SPE.\KER: Tbe hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs c.nd E:ousin:5 • .8n:;ower to Ou.:!s tioil No • 9 3 f :com the :1on. n:embe r fro~ ___ .................. _ L.!P-,:.le, )rders :> ~: the Day, r·ebrua:cy 10, 1977, with reSj?"!Ct to the Een..iey Re~ort. Only rc.ising a HR. RO:BZRTS: Well said. '30M!; HON • XE18ERS : Oh, oh! sm.r -r::ON. MEMBERS: R~ar, bear, hea~, hear! .:\H RCN • ME1.BE2: Thank you very mu~h. The hen. Minister for Intergovernment:al Affairs. Res?or.sibla for~ not for.

Mr. Spe~k"!r, I table i th~ a11~-;v;e:r to Quastict"l . No. 182, that ls . 1, 2 and 3, th::! answer to -No. I lS zll out one. The answer to . t~o. 5 ts that -<4- MR. :~EARY~ ~:tho - askeC:. tile que:s-cion ~rhat dai::e? "MR. RI~: WE';ll the h·:>n. member from LaPoila,l82, and the ar..swer to ~:o. 5 is that if there are ar.y refusala, :-1ost assuredly action w.i!l. boa in:i.tj .at: -1 t:~ t"e..::.cver any an:.ounts d-ue the C.c.:~~.rn. - Well said. ~Jhat about t:t:e a.nS"tJE:::O: to ye.s t ;~r-ciay' s question? Oh, oh~ ORAL QUESTluHS The hc.n. Leader of the \)ppositic-c. ~,R ..

R03~F.TS: Mr. ' Spea.Y.er, the hour ar:d a hal:: ~ett:i.ng on the ~-+--'d ues ti·~·n F-e::riod h3s r:ot d..i.mi:1ished at all the a-::-do::: of 1T'Y colleagues. is, in the ab~~:.'lce of the Premier, who sc-:ms tc ha--:e 1::... t th.e •::1a-nher, could \)e cire<:ted to the Minister of Finance. Co•Jld he t:~ll us, Sir, ?l:.asa:)~.rhet"!lar ':l.Ls •.~isit to Ottawa y este.rc!a y in ct:.;n:pc.ny w::!.tl: the Prem.ie_· :1.as a.,_:r:hiug to do t·7ith the dela·r .in br-i.e1ging MR. NU!.rJ.J: Hear, . I 1.= 3.r •

~ard1 29 ,1977 Tape 13i7 lJI-1 We had discussiDns 'W'ith the various pecpla in the Province and to the fed~ral government. I would n•:>t co1DIIlent on it any fur.t.hEa than that at this time, Sir. Ml'... SPE:,.;Th"R ~ A supp1.ementary. MR. R03-E.l.TS: _, _ Mr. Speaker, ob'\~ously the rrl.r:ister is not going to tell ua whom he and the Pre~iar saw,so I ~11 not ask him that ..

"3ut can :;: ask the ministar- vmether he is now in a po~i1:icn --\::::- to tell :.IS when we ~.;rill get the budget, or i£ he t1ishes, will we get it cefore - ::L m:derstand vre are tald. ... ,g an Easter break from Apri:_ 8- - Aoril 18 are the dates that 'lre - 'MR. DOODY~ I ~"!an gc into that when I introdace the Supply :Sill. AN ROK. MP.ffi:ER: ~my is there something t·rrong1 Q. ROBER"'iS•' :-To,! am to!.d ::t-_at there is talk of an Eas1:ar i:re'lk from ..i:_-;~::il 9 - April 18. \·Till tv-e get the "~:n:d ~e' t before ~ cr af~~~ that braak?

I can go into that wh~~ we do the Supply Bill. }1P_ • RG"BERTS: r~·ell .answer it now ~-1ith another ~ite at tr.e Suppl-:7 Bii.L HR. OOODf': I d~ net know what about the Easter ~reak but ~ that is very ¥elcou:-e ne~·•s. I heard rumours of it too but I ca .. :tnct: - A:~ EON ~·fEMtER : So did I. MR. OOODY~ Yes, so cid I bat I find it very •:omfortir_g 1 cmning frmr:. a very r~J.iable sottrce. Fear, hear: ~-fR • lJOOf)"{ : 1\s frn: h.aving ~h.~ b1.·.dget brc-egh:: no't·m before Easter,it is unlikely tha-t it will be down by that t:.rre·.

It tdll probably l:.e cloEer to the e!l.d of April. 'i'l1~ e~d of Apr!.:. ~- OOODY: Ye3, the ~nci of April. YR. SPE:!J.<ER:

Tape 1377 MR. ROBERTS: ~-rr. S?eak~r, it .is to the :;ni::tister. And earring !r: •masrs~andit'l.g what lit't:..e. I may und~::a-=and oi t!\e J')rob!.ems cnr:fr·on;:::.ng the m.i.nistry and the Iinancial field a:t th::.s t:i."!le. But is t!~ere any - not is there a pJ :;;sibili~y, cbvi~~sly ~here is a poosibility~ C~~ we be ~iven the ectima~es at same :-cin-e befo't"e !:t.le end of April. Surely, Hr.

Speaker. the est:imctes l!"e no.., ready or -:ould be made ready quickly. ean tll.e'j' l)e ;narie pcblic so t:.h.at ve can have aome icea of Fhere thg ta:mey :!.s goit!g to be spent even 1.: t.Je wil!. not !:ie going into the: formal budget proc~edu'i:'e un.t:il r:~:ppa:cem:ly in the To be: wery £~ abm..!t it. the -------- - .. hou. !ea~er is right. in p<cc'!!S.ring the budge.t · and that j_s the Labrador Ii.J1.erboard Limi~~- We ca~ get that situation resolved and get t~e re?ort in anc! ic r.ri.!: tell us vmere to go and what co do on the Line'EAV)ard sit•utim.ti '! could bring the budget down to'l!lorro~r.

I can tell you wh~re tc ~o. Yes, I i<.r1Y..r~ r' l:a.~ been tcld where t:, go so efta du:o:-ing the 'J<:.l:it six weeks, :.rou know, the -:>ption& are almost limitle-ss. '8ut th'9.t is t:1e difficulty right ?.lOW; we are trying to resolve the difficulty with t~e !..abrader Linerboa.rd Limited si.tt::ation and it is going to tai<e t!:le final re-port from tha committee ~efore ;:;e can make e. decision or. it. :\r:d -.,.e hcpe to nave it f1y tr..e riddle of the ro·nttl.

HR. 51~ . .\KER: The hon. maiP.ber for Sterhen'\'ille has a sunpl~en.tar.v 1 I belie"Je. }~. 11~ETI..: The ho"'l. r.licister has indiczted that he has /

1377 .AF-3 -re-=ei.veC. ::he: I~te!_-it:t ?-epon .. Ia he pr<apared t::J table this report? !P.... :OOODY: or.e pa·rticular ar~a of t~e e.nti!'!! problem. It_ coes uot decl ~n.th i~he wn.lds t.hi~g and it r.!oe:s not deal Yith the cc-nversion proble!llS .lt·is a.

section :>f t:he 1:ntal ·rerott. So to just present .it to til~ House ~d O"! ~nfair and misleading and inco~lt:1:e and in.concltSive and ••e cannot draw any positive concl'!!Si.O"lS from ~r at!.cl hen.;:e it is a part of our d:'..leli1JII.a he.re. A f~her s~ppleu.entary. ~\fR. lWBERTS:Si.r~ I simply 'Want tc· ask t~1e minister whethel." the .. . ami this arises nat:!rally 01.1t of w-hat he said. - whether th~ .. goven>.nent ha~e aslr..e<l the ga<Tern::n€'Ilt of Canada. for financial assis~ance !Nit'ri the Lin2rboard o-peration.~' ~1R • DOODY : Pell ~a.s ! saia in answer tc the hon.

Lee.cfer' s earlier q:uestio-:t. we did meet with various senillr pe.opla in Ottaga yesterday. We discussed various :na.tters of concern ~c bc::h the p=o·t:'.ncial arcd ferl.eral government and I. am not i11. a. position to ela±crat~ on that anYT.~re at tt.is time. Ran. member for Le~oile. 8an the MinistEr of .J,.lstice '.Jring us ap to da-::e O!l t11e ftshary gear sca!lda.i~ Tll:a ~nister. prC'mised to get :no: ~~e. in.fonnZ:tion yesterda.y. r.ffi.. RICIO!A.'N: On th~ inv~stigati~r.. :1R. UE.\RY : On the ir:vestiga.tio:t and 'tolhen fu:rt:h.ar chll.rges i ao long and drcggeci o•1t?

_Ia,rch 2~ .,.1377 1377 ~.. HIC!Qe:f..B :. Mr. Speaker, ! did undert:ake t~ get some additional info~t.i.m toG:a.y f.~-r the non. gentl.aman with respect to inves-;:igaticns being cazried out by~ both tne Royal Canadian Mcunted Police and · 'the. ~le•.,;rfll':ndhmd Constabulary intf.l th-a fishery gear replacemen:: I repeat what I s<£id earlier.or said yesterday, • I that l eanct: and pill !lot refe~ the matters that are before ·the court. and have to be very ~.larded in saying anything con.cern:iDg mat'ters which may come before court..

Fo-ur investigations ; have beu dO'ID.pletad C'f recent date by the Royal Canadian ~wunted. ~licap ... iolt>e.n I say completed,their first ·invegtiga.tion into these reports have been now Sllhmitted to the appropriate - to the U:!~c"tor .Jf Pub lie Prosec~ltions for his careful pe!'1.1Sal

March 28. 1977 Tape no. 1378 Psge 1 - ns Mr. Hickma~:. ana then h~ ·~1 instruct the RCMP accordingly ae to w~c~her he needs any a.iditional inf·.,ma.tio:n. or evid~nce or -w-hat fu~ther action w!ll be taken. : Kas t"J:Jder t:t.e impressi.:>!l yesterday, Mr. Speaker, that the Newfmmdl.:mci Constabula-ry had ju:t about wound up their ir.~estigat.ion. But I ac advised by tee Directcr of Public Pros~~~tio~s that ~ members of tre Newfoundland Constabulary am st~ll continui!!g two investigations; one -is neer co1tpletion ancl the other ·.rill cake several montn:3.

The note that r !lave ht=re is a l.it-::1.e :,:.c confusins but it indicates that the Constaculary are be~~3 assisted by two auditors from the Auditor Ge.neT.al's depar.t:me.nt~ With respect tc the RQ:',P' their major work appP.ars to ha"\"'~ oee::: al!nost c.omplet.ed. They have - --- -·-- --- ---- ..._ .. - ~e. offic.e ~ st:U). 5_o_~k~ng~ -~ - - ! guess, full-time into one fairly extensi-~a inv.:stisation which TV:t.ll taka a: few months to coutplete.

And. ;;,ver and ao-o-~e tha.-c-, or cocrse, RCMP decachments ~~roughcut the Pro~inc~ are doing any investigation i!1 t:1.eir Jet.s.dr.n~nt area ~~hen rec;.uested by members ni the Cc!I!IIierda.!. Fraad Division of the R::1P. MR~ SPEAKER: A supple:nentarv. MR. NEAR'!: ---- ,ir, 3pca~er, do I understand the minis~er correctly that fo·~:r investigat:l.ons nsve be-:n c.omp.!..et:ed by the RCMP? .Axe ~te t:H.:> that are acru before the. court, are thay included in the four and the t·~? Or are th2re six, ov:r and abov& che t~~ that are ncu b~fo~e the court? Are there a ~~tal of eight altcgether? rne ho:;.. n:.iniscer.

MR. 3:I OOfAN : I n:ay ha--re gene too f.'lr al:!:-aatiy in what I have said, h~t I c;rtai~ly ~arnot bo any f~rther . De~~u~~: ~an see

i:!arch 29 • 1977 Tape no. 13 78 Page 2 - ns Mr • P..i c. kma n • hen. gentle;:-.er. <.~ha wil.:. t·cv to read things in there ,_ < ·- ' "' ·~ F , . II t,12t are no ·.: ~!\ere. .1. sa.~.a, <Jur ot ~1er :::.nves ~iga t ions. MR. NE.AP.:Y : MR.. HI CI<:M..tsN : Yes. Please do not relate these ~o four persons~ :cur compa11i:s ~ foi.ir anyth.ing, you :<now~ 2.nd say that ttose c~e ~~ng investigated or similar to other charges tb3t have been laid . I have not said tha:. I ~annot 'day it. ! will not say it..

All I can say is ti-:.at the evl.d:n..::e has c~. en gathered by the RCHP in four ca~es, now suhr11i.t~od to the Direci:cr of ?ublic Pro~ec.utions. It ~. s a ·tery te!:iicus .:.nd !ong a.:cd ler.gthy procedur'= tc go - bea~ing in :nind ris other reS ?.:lnsibili ·:i:as - through - .1. am talkir..g about t:he Cro,_-n proaer.u.tors ana the Director ~f Public Prosecu-cior.s to go througn the evi:ience, <iecide wha'i: acditional f3.cts ~hev may requ::·:e and also t~J decide -what charges, lf any, can be sustained t:onda·r -chis evi ·ience. HR. SPEARI.'R: A s11pple:mentary • M:c.

Speaker) when cart we expec<: the Dt::-e;:-::cr of· CroWl! Prosec:uticns to either· Jast dismiss ::hese si~ case.s or -r:roceed witt'. furth~r ~harges7 r..;:..e;n can WE ::x':'.:ct a decisl.ou ': This thing has ·:,ee-.n dragging O!l no~7 for a year a. n~ a half, eighteen months? MP.. SPE~KfR: ~he hon. ~iuister. MR. HI CKHP.N ~ The thing is not iraggi::J.g on, ~'!r. Speaker. There has J,e~::n a tr-enend;Jus effort go!le intc it, ami a trcreendotJs ........___ ~ cost .,may I sa.y,cr I susp.act it ha;;. ·w-hen the Director of Public Prcsecutions is ready ~o pr~ceed is his prerogative.

I ha·,;e n.o idea when he w-ill jo it. Th'it: :!.s t<Jtally :tnd absolutely up to him. A.."ld fo ·J:~'mat.::ly he will r!C t ccrne and ask me, and I ;rll.i. not tell ni111.

!ape n\l. 1378 Fag~ 3 - lilS MR.. SPE.A.!CP.. ~ The hon . ·;1!em1Jer for Conception Bay South. MR.. UOWN ~ Does ~ot the ~tl.nister Jf Justi.ca decide when to p~os~cu::~, ·;.fJ.9:l to J::re:ss cha::gr.s cr not to press e~arges? Ra;; b.e not done Sll in tb.e: ,ttast? Re ci.ozs nc•t. In other w~rds~bis ~pioyees as su~h do not report to h~ fc~ a ciec.ision O"l.a t;ay or another and if so, what is he t:here for? ·- new Minister of Jus~ice. MR. ,. HI(.~\N ~ clr.

Spaa :cer, traditionally any Minister o·E Justi~e with e~~ a q~rter of a brain ana any sense of responsibility · would leave the decision as to when pro$ecutions are taken~ aga~st ~om ~nd the aa=ure of t~e crArges up to the Directo~ of Public !?1'osecuLl.ons. MR. ROBE'RT3. I~ light of that statement is t~e ~nister Ia ot~er wcrds t~ey c~~ do w~_at they like dowa there :mC. tl.la mi!lis tee - MR. Hicn:rAN ! ~o, they cannot do wtat they lika because - MR. ~0~:- Do you not :leel. unnecessary - MR.

HICXt!!~i: Bec&usa the director :>f - I cannot explain tc the ~n. gentlamar. opposite how the administration of justice ~ks- ~m.. MOLJ>..lf: t~o, or to the pro"'Ttnce a:!. the!:'.

But I will do my best to reassure the peop~e of this pr~~_n~e t~~t we nave an exceptionally com~etent, exceptionally atrong Director of Publi~ Prosecutions who is sustained by the largest nmn'oer "Jf ;:rcwr.. prosf:c:ltt.l~s that this provir.~e has e·-1er h!!d ana it would ~e Yi'!.·cy - I only know of one case i11 - Ther.e. -was a. cz._cte in Ottawa ~here a !-tiniater of Jns!ice i~terven.ed - and I am sure he re-grette.d it. ! kno•;,r he. did. MP.. RIDEVL"l: Can y:>u say ~hat 7ithout pre~udice? HR. NOI.Nf: Ee n:.u.st: h.ive b.:e'). a :iberal for you to say it. T~e ho~. ~emhe~ fo~ Po~t au Port.

M.arc.h zg. 19 n JM- ~ MR. !IODDE::a: Mr. Speakar. a qu~stion for the hon. the Minister of Fis~ies. Does the minister foresee :f.n the future that only a small nunber af processors w1l!l be operating itt this province? Mil. SPEAR;EP.: The 3,;)Q. Ministe!:' of Fisheri~s, M...lt. W. ~:&TER: M::'.. Spuker, I thiuk. the hon. member is still probably referring to t:ha situation in Port gu Por't r.vhere one Ala~ . . 'bker was refused .a. li.cenae to operate and I thought I ~!aiDed to the House and to the member exactly why that

~iarch 29, 1977. Tape 1379 RH - l }ffi.. ~~. CAF.!ER: Ce-:tainly we a!'•a not: going t:o __ be that restri::.~ive, but: w·e cc.n:.:1ot pcssibly alia~; ou=s~lves to get into t~e pcsiticn. of ha•~ing fi:ib. ?rocesscr3 in e'~e_ry -~t')m.Jl?Jnity. There is only s-::> ouch fish to go around and 1"'--S-tu::a!.lj ~l:er~ can ,;r;ly be so many fish pr.,ce:ssors. But certai:illy getting bad;. t:o til.: l?ort au Por-e s:.:.t:uation which I _am sur~ br~cgl:.t :::·n this qu:itiou- ~wer :he question. HIL Ctill.TER; ~f t::.te ~OIL ma!li.le.c is .a~:tous tc.\ ha'le tir.

Baker issiled a .L:!.cense an•.i in so ·ioing ha will no doubt have to assune responsibili-cy ±or :na e::ilfir..ati-::~n c£ ~Jational Ssa ic that area, N'a:l that is h'ia d~i.3ion. 3u-: :srta.in.ly, Hr·. Sp6Sker, it is cot our inte:ntio-:1 co c·.1t out - MR. RO.BE3.TS; Ee :.s ClOt ccap-et.it.io :.'l. ~.1\.. CAR'IZR; Mr. S~eaker, ~y I com~ler.e my answer' It is not cu~ allow l icens ea t c be is:;-:.1ad to <ae.ry .3 i ng1.e ' person who 'J<mts to s e t c: u:p a feeder pla~'lt operation, -ii-llieibeeva ~7 coJ::ll[lur11ty i11- tn·e- ? -=evince. ~~ . SPEAKER : ~. J .

ROI>DER: Do~s thi3 nean thar. there is a poli~y cf exclu~ive fl ~-·.!his.as within the ?rovi.nr.e by th~ Depa!'tment of Fisnarias? MP.., S!'EJ...KER: Tne h~n. ~inist~r. Mr. Speaker, 30. There is r.o s~cl1 thing as an e:c:usive franchise poli::y o-u to~ par~ of the Deparwen-c Gf Fi.sheri.:=s. But we de resene the: 1•;'.gnt - ve ha¥e & daty,. : th:Lnk, m::.r f5.rst concer-::1 !lll!St ~x:dee:ci a~ybody -else, then I 2.lil afraid t!.la.t i3 going t.-:> be the cc.se because in l:"='t"tai!:. pa:::-ts cf the ?rovince we have !::) put a limit en the m.unber c;f people ::..ilo ar£ ~r.:>ct:ss:.ng fish.

Certai~ly on the Port au Por~ ?e:1insu::..a wher~ ~ut ye.'lr, £cr exam-ole~ there J~re three milli.Jn

:urch 29,. l? 77. Tape 1379 .iili - 2 }~. ·:AR'l'El\.: pouncis cf fisn land1'!d, SOC, 000 pound.s of which was landeC: ~y govermue:1t o·•mec! boats. Go you are ::a.lki'!lg about a potential production there of two ana: a ha.lf million pouras. TI1.at wou.ld not k.eep Even a small :: F!eder p:L.:.."'llt in ope:raticn. Fo:: eY..ampie, ~ational_~ Sea operation ~s capable of pr::>c.(:ss:!.ng about 100,000 po~.Jt:.ds a .:iay Jn a two-sh::f·c basis. So.

I would preicr to 3ae a limited number of eccuomically v~bl:a pl~u~:J i:..1 cper.at::!.on then to hd.'re maybe three or four tia:.es ::ru..~ :roan~ iJlants ~hat ari! ~aetering GU bar.krupt.~y. AN a·Jl:f. ljEl-BEP.: Hear, hea.:r ~ 1:.. su.ppler.lt!ntary. The ll!.ember for Eagle River. ¥.:&. I. STI'..AOl.l1N: They a~"lu•.U.d add it is the Deputy Minist£r of l~::soerles wb.o s':ati!d the poli~:y of axclusive ;;ranc.~ises and ~t."J..:eri tl:..at ·.ms th:! e:L.nister 1 s policy.

But the q'lles:ian is that dces he not sae that- in tr:.e "C'ati~J~lizP.ticr·. c.f the fishin3 indus try t.ha.t there is a 9lace fer the small p~oce~sor producing lew volume, ~i~h qM.licy t:::.r.i~hed pro..iucts and tha:t chat :o-w vo:.ume need not · uec.essar±ly int.:rfere -with large ·plants ar.d that we ar -.; ~::mcel."!'~ed that wta.t 'We are dt':O:.~ is giv:Ln.g a few large co111panies the rigr.ts SOME HON. ~F.P.S: Hear, hear! MR. S FE.AKER; l:1e non. m..iU::.Ster. 1-'..lL W. ~'IER: Uz:.

Sr-eak.er, 1 alJl ob,rt :.nsly not getti!lg through very wall. '!'h.E!ra are i ·A Newfo-cndlan-d today roughly 101 fish plar.t.s, S111a11 and lar1~ plants ; ?0-ur:::ae~ of these plar.ts a-re opera~il"..g ~lose to ali year- ~ouud. The rest are OJ•era.ting very much on a sE:oasor.a1. ba3is. Cer~a.inly :~•Jr <mibition. is to, first 'Jf all, QI'Otect the fisher.r~ arid insure that: his catches are sold ana that he ge~s tne b~st P--rice ?(!Ssibl-a. Secondly we hava t:he ·::~epor.sibil:!.ty to ir.sur~ ~bat fiSh tbac is l=avi:l.g C~le ?rovicca !s oi a high q~E-lit7.

And therefor~, we: hav·e to ex~c~e c&te:<~.in cco.trol iJ.l the issuance c f

March 29, 1977. Tape 1379 RE - 3 MR. CARTER: licenses. But cercain.ly we are n·:>c: emba.cking en a policy of .::ut.ting aut the small cp-erc.tor in favour cf the larger operator. But in g·~t:ting back to the orisinal question, the sitcati.on OJn the Port au Po:lrt P~~r.s.ula. wbi·::h is the thing that r..as prec:ipj. tated this del:ate was that t..\~e wa.<3 utter cil.aos in the in.d:<JStry. The co-op failed, at the reqa-.aat of t.he fishermen in ~he area and of the Po~t au Port co-.Jp SO\;iecy, or at: l.aa.s;: the Pert au Port Developmeut Corporation .._ or waatev~r they call t~emgelves-- Aa'iociation.

M!L C..\RT!:R: -,-e· d:Ld canvas th:t.!e po'!:eiltial operators for the are~ Only ·:Jne. acc!J!pted the cha:lenge, Natio•.lal Sea. In so do.ing they wera given cartai::t ~:.ghta in beealf oi the fishermen. 1-..nc;i we -chi!lk it is work!ng very w-all. But agGi.!l if they 'fla.nt to., ii the fishe:c!!ler:: want tc '!?Ush out tiar::'..onal Sea o-: 'i:o bring in somebody else, tl"•ct is their de!:is!cn. Bl'i.t ce:t"•::&inly it would !le against our ad'Vice. One add~tic.nal SX?plementary. The hon. member fer Ea.gla RJ.~er • :1R.

ST~: T.:.1is statement that you are protecting the fishermen aoo ~his is wha 'C your. policy is dssigned to do is to protect the ·-t fishe:':Ir.en :indi.:a;:es that the fishermen, if they a:-e going to sell the.~: fish to the smz.ll pt"ocesso-c ~Jculd not gat a price for his fish. Is it' now.u'Lat the minister is stating, that the fishermen can sell thei: fi~~ in fact there is a·naed for t4e fish~ a demand for fish both by small processors and large processors and th~t this is not valid~

~:arch 2.9, 1977 PK - ... ~. SPEAKER: ~f.l\.. W • CART:E.R: -~ whe1':'e fish plants ~a!! indeed a~fcrd ~o pay the top pri~e for fisn. A :ist Flan-::. t~2.-c is bordering on bankruptcy is cf little '.lSe to the Pro'i7ince or indeed tne fishermen, and proba·o:y uf :.ass 7alue to !...<·.a O?e::-c;.tcrs cf !:he jJl~t i-cself. But: certainly ore c.>.ra precl:.1ding small .:Jperato::-s~ in 't~e Pr:~,rince we have many dozens cf th~ and Ti<e c.re dci'::1g all we can tc· an::.ist these .StJ.all operatcrs.

As a matt.er of fact,most: of these small operatc..cs, or a lot cf them, of ?isherie~, by the govei'!'.!!lent - SOW- HCN. ME."iBEf.; :1ea:.:, hear; ;or which they are cbargL•g practically no rer..t at ail., a ver"j, "lary n~mi.nal rel'.t. ·so thac ~s hardly a policy cf - tha~ can h&rdl? ~e interpreted as s. policy of tryir:.g to pu:in cut or to disc::>urage small operarorg . i:l. the ProvL1ce. MP .• SP~: tfR. FLIG?f: M::: ..

Speaker, a c; ues ~.:icn to the Eir.ister of Consumer P..ff sirs. would the mini.~ Cl2r inciicate :::o the nOU."W a-3 to whet.t:er cr r-ot his depar•::men-:: na·.1e receiv~d over ::he past ~v-ask or so cc.mplaints or reu-resen:ations f:: )m ·;)~ullle ..Ytc' ha.ve 'be-:n t:n:ible to secure. t:;_:;-:-e in3uranc:e on hous:as,cr. homes ·in whict: they either ir .. tend ' to i~istall wood burnilJ .g unit .s oc on homes :i.I:to l·<hich wood 1nn'l.i.ng units ha"]e already been installed~ 1 >dll -r~:peat the qu!E:st:ion again! MR . SPEAE:EP..: The ' hou.

Minister of Ccnsumer Affairs. only c~i.:atic:r.., tl:~ !l-.:.ly info~.atior. I :::eceivei ·.Jas from tn·e toe f;rcup thst a::-e s=~dyillg all th:: insu:-:ance r.eeds for th"! P-ro7ince =.r.d they ha':e it end.~!' :l ::bics~1D.eni:, Eut t!:l:re may 1::e r~pres~:.1t.:.ti.:;~s ~n. i::ut I think eve.ryb JC.y is awc.re tha~: there Wc:S a s::tght delay :.n the p:Jst ofri-:P- d.~live::ry cf rna:'.l in the past fer.T G.ays, d.rd l.·~ '81.!!: I c2.n a.ss~.!re t n e ~ - ,.... .. '. L"" :.'- •

~."arch 29. 1977 Tape 1380 PK - 2 m'!mber that. it is an ongoi:1g th~:1g in the i)epa~":mcnt Jf Cozuwaer Affairs, parti~u::.m:ly 1:.1 the ill5U't'2.I'.ce gr'1up, and wa are look::.ng at it all tC'gethP.r 11ith all other ma:ters of insura..•ce. i3ct :tf ther: is Clli.'J s~ecific cne, Mr. Speake;::, I o,yill nrge agz..in ('lease with o:. protEst c-f any ki:ld~ they a!lk us f,:>r paJ;·ticulars, s<J ·,;e j"ust cannot ::.m:l some::hing ·:>ut cf the tnirt air ·we must g:_,,e i:t.e ::bfonu::ict:.""t.:O..at is requirad 1 anJ r.he names. _;fR. SPEJJ\ER.; The ':lon. member irmu St.

Geo:cge 's fcllowed by the hon. ~e~tleman frcm LaPci:e, and the hon. gentlerean from Stephenville. MRS. 1:L XP.C!S&\C: I bave a question ior the Presidtn.t ~f Treasury Ecard o~ the Mi:J.i:..>-:er of Man9cwe·c and Industrial F.eL:!::ions .•.ihi:hc.ve::- Is the oinistel.-: .::.wa::e of the £act th.a~ padents al: tl11~ Wa:te.r~orC. Hos>;)Hal are: being "rdere.d to - I will gi"Va .'l. cOI.'!p!e of er.ar:1ples - i.s l:e aware that a patient, an epilerti,.: patient -------- ---was c1~de:-:ed to install. a iigh~ on ~he roof of ":he building~ a. S~1: l!g1~.t?

And ancther c~se• wh~re. two pati:.1.'i:S were ordered t~ clean u.~ se~·erage after there was :1 break L1 oe1e o= the li:r:.es? The hon. Mini~t~r oi Finane~. No, Y'Jur Honour, I c;an hcr..es tly say th1.~ I ";as I do not know if I car.. get some dccument.:l:~:ion I will certar~ly check i~~o it. A supplementary. MR. SPEM.EP..; - - A supplement~~~ the original questioner. I wcndcr .... -o•JlJ t'1e ministEr ~nt'l.eavcur to looK. 1 ir:t~ t~e _ situati.or~ a:::ui see if maybe these patients are. being csed in thos.~ positions because of their particula.z- situaticr.. :nayt:e? !11. Sl:'F.n:ER: The han.

Minister of Finance.. }{R. DOODY: Y~s I 'li.ll ce:rt.s.inly de that, Your Eonour. I was aToi~e of tile fact that various patier.ts have volmttee:cF:d ':o do various

Maz:ch 29. H·77 rape 1380 PK - 3 and this sor-;: of thing. Oh, oh ~ M...~. DOCr·Y: .Ar.ti, you know;· ~ understand that is the situa~.ion. ~~at they are eoir.g it ~oluntarily. The idea of ord~r~ng t~~ to do such things as the hon. member suggests :!.s something that I ~.ras not a,;-rare of caid.. whi.:i~, y-~u ;tnow·, I ha"le sOlile very grave resenations about. I would like to see some proof of it. I T,dll certair..l:r check it cut tc see what I can =L~d out. MR.. NOLAN: .A su:pple."!lfmtary, N-r. Sp~er. ~. SFE}...J.ER; . - A suppl~mentary, the hon. member f~o~ Conception Bay Soum. M.~.

NOU.N: If ! -:ray t~e supp!.eB:Lentary to the ~1lp.ister cf Health if it l.S p.:missible~ since }•e Ls the 6ent:J.eman in cha:rge of the Waterford Rcs~it2~. Cotll.d -ch-:! Hinister of Health fill ns i!l. on SOfa,! of the questions raiseci. by the hon. '"\a~;eni.n8 ·"'n · aealt.:h insd.t:.1tiot:.s are w..der h::.s member, since things care and guicla~~e. Perhaps t::te mi:lii't-cr can enlighten t:s as ;:o whether or not the patie.::rs in thac hosp~tal are requirec to do the things as su~g2sted by ~Y no~. f~iend. MR. !WBEi.trS : Hear, bear! A gcod question. MF. SP'fu\.nR : The hon. M~ister of gealth. l1R. H.

CQI.:.!.INS ~ 1·1r. Speaker, that is t!-te first indicat:f.c.n that I ~uve had_. but I will certainly t..ake it under advisement and check L:: out fully and get Jack 'to t~e Hause. --\ to the hon. ~in.ister of The non. me!Ilber from. L.aPoile. Mr. Speakar, I vould like to ciir ec't a ql.1es tio!!, Sir , Minister cf Rshabilitat~on and Recreation or the ion. T~ri.sm, 3848

Tape 13el JM - l 111h:t~heve:: gen-::.eman p:efers to ans~.-.ar the questi~n. S ~.r an outstar<iing l.'le·.v:icundland athlete by en; na:ne of E.ren T<el.~:..y trould like to r;.1u from Victoria - f-rom coast to coast~lr.am V:lc.:to·r-ia to St:. Jctn's arriving in St. Jonn.~:'i on til~ ~·m of -c:he sunnn~r ,:tatles. The millis":er is awsr~ of ~~is. w~~l.d th~ min~3ce~ tell the House if there is any way rhat tne r-.iui.ater" s :iapnr-=.ment can help }!r. Kelly, l·!r.

Br:m K'el2.y. wi::h hi.s expenses .i.n czrrying out this noble t'.rrbitiuu anC. in t:he prccs.,o;a giving excellent publicity t" Ne~wfour.clla::ld? 21R. SP~llR: The ho~. Minister of Health. XR. CGLLL:~!:): :·!r. Speaker, it: r·ms only Y'!sterdsy or the day / hef or!!, · . .-l!:hin the- past ':~.ro cr t::ree days, my sec1:etary _infonneci. m~ that t:.his g~:c:~eman had called the office and -;.1e c:::re L.!.l tha p!'o~ess of sc.tt:ing cp a II'.eeti:ag v1:Lth hill:..

I do :1ot ~"~ H t.e tffl.!!ts sca:.e ~r. ey -:>r whether b.e ,;;ants 3ome encourageti!.e-c.: .,;:- whether ha war.ts ~ublic.ity but whatever it is r..7e e~e Getting up MR. 3PEAI~: · ~1e hon. member fe-r LaPoile. A su~pl~ertary question fo:- the Minister or Tourism, S~r. Wz:;clc r:h2 Mir:.:!..:i't'?.'!" of Tour.is::n infcr!ll. the House if he has received any comllt"lr;.i:::aticm froc:1 :ir. KeJ.ly in connection with this rttrming frcm coast to ~.:.o&st,.frmn Vtc ·.::oria to Si:. John's; and if so, ~uld the minister tell !he House what action - if any has been t:aken o'J. M.t'.

Kelly's req-ueat for. some a.ssis~ance to 'Jla.ke this journey? ~R. SPEAKER: T.he he-n. Minist:ar of: Tot1ris:n. MR. HICKEY; iol.:r. Speaker, -r can .:.vnfirm th.Gt I have a req·;.1es::. My staif a~e lo~king at the sitaation . ! cannot say as tc ~~at ~e can do. Ce~Lainly we a.ra ap?reciacive of the ~ffcrts being put forward by tnis young man and certainly the effects tha~ it will haYe as ha goes across t:he co11tlt~y. But I am oct i !l a posi~ion ~o say a~ this ~~e whether there is any fcrm of assistance

Marcn ::&:9, ~977 Tape 1331 JM - 2 MR. taat ~e ca~ provide him. hil:l. with the 'JS1lal gifts to pres;:nt in various capica.:.. cities that he will "7i5:':..t all.i any other th"lng that w~ can prov:i.de him with. But in the t~:u!I.S of t1nances I am ur.able to say at tns poir.t . Fi~l q~estion - the hen. me~ber fer LuPoil:. MR. NEARY: A su·flpl'a!nentary question. Mr. Speaker , is either :I:inis-:e~ auare o.f tl!c urgency of this ma·.::ter thn.: Mr.

Nelly ~s supposeci to hav• started on March 21s·c 3nd H he does r.ct get started ~his week,cf course,t~e trip w~ll ~~7e to be cat:celled1 So .:an ai.ther !lli!lister give Mr. K~.!...l.y or the !louse an ~uswer ttiz week sometime? HR. SPEAKER: The hen. Ministar of Tourism. i'B. ~TrKEY • ~ wi~l-:e~ ¥..r. Speai(t!r, I ha·i7a a.ssu.:ea the ge:n.tleman that we ans'!,"e= £or him.

I:::1 cb.is connecti~n I have asked my staff to lcok •rery o:;,u:tckly and to get bad: to me to eee if t:bere is a..-ry form of assis.t.acce of a financial !latur.e chat. we :a:J. provide and we cert:~i~ly wil.!. f:Jll -ow through •:rith that. ~m.. SFEAKfR: T'he han. member fC'r St:epi1enville , MR. M~~!L: Mr. Speakar, ~ que3c~o~ to the hon. Mi~ster of Finance. Cocld the i1\iniste: indicate ~-1hether the final repc;rt of i ohe A<lvi sory Beard of Labra.Oor Lin£rboard '>as to be submittad nef~re tte Provincial Budget comes down Qr is it jast a report ... ·thar. the minister ia waiting for? ~. SPEAKER: ·r;'lg hon.

Minist:er of Finance. ~lR. DCODY: We a~:e looki:l.g fer as much i:l.f'Jrmaticn e..s ' . ./e. can .from th.a Advisory Col!l!li;i:::tee. r:opef-;.tlly it will be t.:he fi:Hl -report and !f it is r,ot it will cert.ainly f...ave to be suf.f.ici.er1tly comprehensi·.;e for us to make a decision en it. But obviously it t:he fil:.al re?ort is n•Jt: in 'Ce:fore i::he end of April we are gci..'"lg to have to tri:\g in ~ budget o.nyway and so we :1ope tl-..at they ~ill be i!l a poaiticn to advise us a.s to what ccurse cf action they think we should take out there.

Ma.::.-ch Z9, 19i7 Tape 1381 ~.. SPE4..t.:ER: A supple1en:ar,. MR. MCNEIL: I!'rom roy aour::ss, J<1r- Speaker, the final relX'ftt c.a;;mot ba po~si.:-ly ~el.!.vered tc the minister before the end oi A~riL Gn:ld the m!.ni~t:er illdicu.te if the I:uterim RepCirt reS enough :t.nforma:icn to ~t> 'ln :i.n o=der to sec up ;:he~ to :ring. ------do~~ ~ Provi~cial Eudget1 The hou. Minister of Finance. ~-!R. DOODY : I c is nat rea 11 y.

To7e wculd ll.:~e to ha·.,re a mora COIQrehensi.;e report. l'here is .wthing i~ that preli.1lina.rJ r~pcrt r.t~t deals ~~b oc~ of th~ i~ems I th~nk that are raally .Jtt - 3 UJajo~ c;;: cen ::r.al . to t!la tmo.l.e ilr.,blem and tbat is the ccn·ger3ioa o·pt:1ons ar.d the costs uf such O!)tilla.a. I thi:1k t7tat: th~y can:. c.er·c.ailly ~et chat info~tion for us by· the req~ired da.:~ and I thittr. t;.at is tbe cl.-ud.;al b:U: .an-i pieca. Cou.ld the minis ~ar. tel~ t:;.s wtether .Jr =..ot tte it.

We also ha=7e that t.<Ccdla:od .~ituatiC)'C still. out :::te:::-e. too but I do ~u~": t~·hic t:u:.t ~hat ~:"'t.:!.~ be crucia:i. t ,~ oy central prcbleili. The !:wn. au!Jllbe·r fer Cc:1cepticn. liay South. '!-Ir. Speak:!:' :t a C£ue~tion f':lr the ~ini.st:er of :1i:ilts and Energy and I my s;q that r dire-ct the qt::es:ion to him only because of an item in ~'\le newspa~er today q-.:~ot.i.'lg his colleag-~e th.e ~i~:ister of Mu.."'li.ci"3al Affa~s ~agarding discussions between en the ~cher regarding Bay B'.Lds ti.g ?ond.

I "'"':J~d t:hi.nk e::het!'efore that the ci:".scussion cm:.tre roat:.d the ,:.!.a:i!l! and !':.ghts ~~hateva...: they may ~~

Tape 1382 LB-1. ~rp .~OLN>L tllat !...igr.t & ?over '·muld ha7e oa the water body ~he-;:-~;~ anri Perh~:;>s the ::!'inist:er might be ~cod enough to to~ 1 ·::.s, sire.: the wa:er is now 'Seing de"~Jel ·~ped to suppl;" tre city cf ~t. J'cl:m's, Conc~ption .3Ciy an~ so on. what. n;eet:f.r .gs ~~ has ha~ ~f .'!l!!y? \-"hat the positicn of the Li.ght .s_r<ci P.:nrer C?i11P!!U~T is ,and '""'"'.J!it lf ':ln~rt:b.ing is the ~oT.'e rnreent prepared to -io. if they have dug i.11? A go:::>d· quest:.on • ?1P .• SFEP..F.2R: ~m1.

Mir.ister of ~ ·~:L.'"les & Energy. 01:'1.<:! ~011sing and I know tnac sor.:e dis...:ussions are tmgni=1g i'J.L-t: I an: uoc ::tt tl::e c,:.mt:er of the pr{}Lle:m, and have not heen f :y: SO'I!e t itr.e • I 1~ave . t-;:;en irfor.neC, about · what is go:.ng 0n. I \<:now !:hat tbeY"': :f..s a problem as it re.lates to o·..mership a.nd !'eservatinn and so en ·.:~e:t1-re. en New-foundlanc Light and T.Y~t: the governm.enc O!" ~epart-mt:ilt ·~f Muni.::i"Pal Affairs sees as what it needs in orde':' for. the J:ll:'Oner operation and m!lil!":enance of ::he syat:~m. That is all I C2"l say.

I-~ .• 3'?EAKE'R L_ _\ :=upp '.el'ien tary. I a.G.cres:S :he qu2stion no·'N, ::l:len, to the }'ini!:ter of ~+..rn5.dpal Affa~_rs c:.r.d ~~rhaps I should not h~"7e gone 2fter the ~inister of ~ices a~d E~ergy.It is just tha~ using my information f~,m o,:~ 11-ew:;;paper ~1here the ninister sai~ ha is no-c involved and o:her :nir:ist.ers ere :i.nvcived I auto·~nati.cal.1.y ass'.l'!l'ed that if anybocy sn::mld be it shonld be the ~irister of ~!~.nes anci E;<ergy. So, :1a-.;; ;;~rtaps the ~in is ter ,f t"'unicipa 1 t\ ff airs ~.:;ould 1:-.e good ,~nouf!h. tc rill us in on this TY'.Stter. YP .• ::v::tt:. Yes, '¥r.

S~e"J.ker,ther~ are preli..,...·inary n~gotiati.on;; ~oin:!

~area 29~ 19i7 Tape 1382 L:S-2 ~l-egations or clains tha.t thev h~'.T~ on Bay Bu.t_:_~ Bi~ Foni. But. ~'1.erE is noi:hin~~ t'!ere are: n~ r-·.e~ti:J.~s beiro.g "b.eid vet but chere t.l·i i ·, be i.n. the ~ry nea)!' fu·cu!"e. I wou.ld a"lti -=ipat:e. ~~ .S.?3A..Q2:: Ec ..... met!!l:le-r for LaPoile foll:n1ed by the h