April 9, 2003 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands replaces

Sandra Kelly, MHA for Gander, and Ernie McLean, MHA for Lake Melville, replaces

Mary Hodder, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (K. Aylward): Order, please!

Good morning committee members and madam clerk, good to see you. We are here

for the Estimates of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education. If we could

have the -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Could we introduce ourselves from the committee member's point

of view?

MR. MANNING: Fabian Manning, Vice-Chair, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson, Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. McLEAN: Ernie McLean, Lake Melville.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, Bay of Islands.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, Port de Grave.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Minister, if you could introduce yourself, and your officials, if they could

introduce themselves.

MS THISTLE: Anna Thistle, Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary

Education, MHA for Grand Falls-Buchans.

MR. HOLLETT: Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister of Youth Services and

Post-Secondary Education.

MR. YOUNG: Bob Young, Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance and

Administration.

MR. PIKE: David Pike, Manager of Financial Operations.

MS COCHRANE: Rachelle Cochrane, ADM for Post-Secondary Education.

MS DOBBIN: Margo Dobbin, Director of Youth Services and Post-Secondary

Education, Acting ADM.

CHAIR: Thank you.

When you are speaking into the mike if you could identify yourself, in

particular answering questions and so on. When it is the minister and an MHA

back and forth then there is no need to, but just in the beginning.

Madam Minister, if you would like to do your introduction of your department.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning everybody, it is a great morning outside.

Let me start by saying how pleased I am to be speaking to you this morning in

my new role as Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education. With the

two previous portfolios that I have had labour issues have always been front and

center of Treasury Board and of course, the Department of Labour. This is a

whole new portfolio and everyday seems like a breath of fresh air. It is already

very exciting, although I have only been in the job probably four weeks full

time because I have been preoccupied with the Badger situation. Already I can

tell it is a very exciting portfolio and I am really thrilled to be minister of

this new portfolio.

As we all know, this Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary

Education was established just two years ago, so we are already celebrating our

second anniversary. Already our young people in the Province are telling us what

needs to be done in this department and we are listening.

Our goals are to ensure that participation in post-secondary education within

Newfoundland and Labrador is definitely the highest in the country; to ensure

that post-secondary education is accessible and very affordable; to enhance the

involvement of our young people in the government decision-making process. We

witnessed that yesterday with our Youth Advisory Committee providing us with

their first annual report. They are coming to us with real issues, what is

important to them, and asking us to move forward on federal and provincial

labour market objectives and priorities. In working towards these goals, the

department has announced enhancements to the provincial Student Loans Program,

and that would not have been possible without the input of our young people.

The department facilitated a 20 per cent tuition reduction at Memorial

University, with a further 5 per cent scheduled to be implemented in September

of this year. We have also committed to tuition freezes at the College of the

North Atlantic, the Marine Institute and Memorial's medical school.

We have a Student Investment Opportunity Corporation that government provided

employment for nearly 4,000 students across our Province. We intend to renew its

relationship with labour, business and community groups with a view to improving

partnerships and evolving new approaches to labour management relations in our

Province.

Some of the individuals who will be directly involved in helping to shape the

future direction of the Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary

Education have joined me this morning, and they have all informed this House of

who they are. One of the members opposite said to me this morning when I came

in: Don't have a long

preamble. I have conceded to your wishes and I am now

pleased to open the floor to any questions or discussions that you might have.

Thank you for your attention.

CHAIR: Minister, that was one of the best opening remarks I have heard

from a minister since we have been doing these Estimates committees. That was

very good, thank you.

Who would like to participate first?

Mr. Manning.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Chair, the Member for Trinity North just joined us.

CHAIR: The Member for Trinity North, would you like to introduce -

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Thank you.

It is good to see you, and welcome.

Mr. Manning.

MR. MANNING: I, too, would like to echo the comments, Mr. Chair. I thank

the minister for the nice brief introduction and, hopefully, she could talk to

some of her colleagues when they come in.

I would like to go down through the budget details first. I have some

comments and questions. If we could go to page 241 of the Estimates on the

Minister's Office on Transportation and Communications, the Budget amount of

$46,000, which was revised to $73,500 and this year looking forward to a budget

amount of $46,000. Why the discrepancy in the amounts listed?

MS THISTLE: The revised estimate reflects the fact that government

business is higher than anticipated. We have been doing a lot of work in

post-secondary education which causes us to travel. It is a brand new

department. Originally, when this department was set up, I guess it was more or

less a guestimate more so than an estimate of what the travel would be.

Government business has been higher than anticipated, and is our reason for this

extra expense.

MR. MANNING: So you are not anticipating that level of activity this

year?

MS THISTLE: We have estimated $46,000 for travel this year, and we are

hopeful we will be able to stay in that range. It is pretty difficult, as I

said, when you are setting up a new department; but, based on previous travel

and what we have planned for this upcoming year, I expect it to be within budget

or pretty close to it. I do not know if our deputy minister might like to

elaborate more on that.

MR. HOLLETT: With this department there are two federal-provincial

ministerial forums that the minister is on as well. In many departments there is

either none or one. What happened in 02., 03., which drove the number up quite

high, was that there were meetings of both of those forums and a number of them

were in Western Canada. The minister had to go to British Columbia, Manitoba,

and Toronto. Of course when you have to travel that distance the costs go up

significantly.

We are not anticipating that - quite often in one year many of those meetings

will be in the west of the country and in the year following they are in the

east. So we are hopeful that this year we will be able to keep that down.

MR. MANNING: What are those two forums, Mr. Hollett?

MR. HOLLETT: One is the Council of Ministers of Education, and the second

one is the Forum of Labour Market Ministers.

MR. MANNING: You said the forums were held in B.C., Manitoba and Toronto

this year?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. MANNING: When were those held? Do you know?

MR. HOLLETT: The Manitoba one was in the fall. Toronto would have been in

the fall, I think it was October. The Vancouver trip was in the summer some

time, I believe it was July, and the Toronto trip was in April.

MR. MANNING: April of last year?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. MANNING: Moving down to 1.2.01, Executive Support. Last year we had

budgeted $686,700 and came pretty close on budget for $684,300 this year - I am

sorry, the revised budget for last year. This year we are looking for an

increase of almost $100,000. Why would that be?

MS THISTLE: The reason for that is, included in that activity is a

provision for staff of the Corporate Planning Division. The increase in

2003-2004 is to salary increases. New executive members are on a higher scale

than the predecessors and an analyst position filled in accordance with the

department's salary plan.

MR. MANNING: Is there anybody on contract within the department?

MS THISTLE: Anybody on contract?

MR. MANNING: Yes.

MS THISTLE: In the Minister's Office?

MR. MANNING: Yes, in the Minister's Office and Executive Support?

MS THISTLE: Not to my knowledge, is there?

MR. HOLLETT: We have a number of employees in the department who work on

projects under the Labour Market Development Agreement. Because they are

temporary employees those would be temporary contracts. But, no, we have no

contractual employees within Executive Support or the Minister's Office other

than the normal ministerial staff.

MR. MANNING: Okay, but there are some under the LMDA?

MR. HOLLETT: Under LMDA yes, because LMDA is temporary funding. Treasury

Board does not give us permanent positions for LMDA projects. If we have people

working on career planning, for example, under an LMDA project, if that project

funding is for two years then somebody is brought in on a two-year contract to

do that.

MR. MANNING: The LMDA agreement is in place now. When does that expire,

the one that is there now?

MR. HOLLETT: The LMDA agreement itself does not really expire, it sort of

rolls. I think it is about a three-year notice that you have to give to have it

terminated. It continues on. We are currently in our sixth year of the LMDA

agreement.

MR. MANNING: Okay. There is no termination notice from either level?

MR. HOLLETT: No.

MR. MANNING: Youth Services, 2.1.01, page 242. We had a Budget amount of

$393,000, which came in considerably less on the Revised budget. Again, a

different figure for 2003-2004. Can you tell me why there is a discrepancy in

last years, and again the amount that is scheduled for this year?

MS THISTLE: The reason for that was there was a delayed recruitment of a

position in accordance with the departmental salary plan. That was the reason

for that.

MR. MANNING: This year it is $20,000 less than what was budgeted last

year for Salaries.

MS THISTLE: Yes, that was a recruitment of a position previously vacant

in accordance with the department salary plan.

MR. MANNING: Under 09., Allowances and Assistance, we had a budgeted

amount last year of $495,000, revised to $354,000 and the same amount budgeted

for this year. What would fall under that, number one? We have almost, give or

take, $150,000 less expended than what was budgeted. What would fall under

Allowances and Assistance? Maybe it will answer the reason why there is $150,000

less.

MS THISTLE: That would be tuition vouchers. There was a lower take-up

redeemed by students. As of March 31, 2003, 225,000 of all vouchers issued were

still outstanding. Over the past several years vouchers claimed by students have

averaged approximately 70 per cent. They are vouchers approved for two years.

However, they can be extended, with department approval, if students are not

ready to use it.

MR. MANNING: That is under SWASP, is it?

MS THISTLE: Yes, and tutoring for tuition.

MR. MANNING: Okay, right.

Those vouchers are good for two years, did you say, Minister?

MS THISTLE: They are, and they can be extended beyond that if someone has

a particular circumstance and they come to the department and ask for that.

MR. MANNING: Under 2.1.02, Newfoundland and Labrador Student Investment

and Opportunity Corporation. I know in the budget you had an increase but I just

wanted you to explain that for the record. The budgeted amount last year of $4.8

million up to $9.2 million this year. Is that for the new program?

MS THISTLE: It is. That is an enhancement to the youth employment

programs, $1.4 million and $3 million for new initiatives designed to keep our

post-secondary students and graduates in the Province. These are the ones that

are going to provide incentives to employers to provide a cooperative work term

experience and also for employers to give graduate students the opportunity of

their first job by subsidizing their wages. As we know, a lot of graduates who

come out - and they have the credentials, the only thing missing is the

experience. It is very difficult to get that first time job. By encouraging

employers to hire them and provide incentives for wages, most students will work

into a position that they would not have had an opportunity to do otherwise. We

feel that there will be a good take up on this.

MR. MANNING: On the subsidy to businesses, is that an amount that can be

variable or is it a set amount? I know some programs, student programs and other

incentives have maybe - I will use the figure $3 per hour against a persons

wages, or $4. Is there a set amount on that or is it a variable amount?

MS THISTLE: The make up of that particular program is 50 per cent of

wages up to $10,000 per annum.

MR. MANNING: That is the same as the Graduate Employment Program, along

the same lines?

MS THISTLE: It is, yes.

MR. MANNING: On 2.1.03, Labour Market Development Agreement Projects. You

had a budget amount of $2.4 million last year and it increased over $600,000 for

Salaries. This year you are at $2.8 million. First, the $600,000 increase last

year.

MS THISTLE: The reason for that is because project approvals were not as

high as we anticipated, mainly due to late starts and project delays; delayed, I

guess, hiring of staff. Funding was reallocated to other priority areas in the

LMDA by the joint federal-provincial management committee.

MR. MANNING: Post-Secondary Education, 3.1.01, Program Analysis and

Evaluation. Is there a reason for a budget amount of $761,000 and a revised of

$692,000? Was there a position not filled or what is the case there?

MS THISTLE: 3.1.01 is it?

MR. MANNING: 3.1.01.01.

MS THISTLE: My understanding of that is there was a lower expenditure to

delayed recruitment in accordance with departmental salary plan. Those vacant

positions will be filled this coming budget year.

MR. MANNING: It is because of a vacant position?

MS THISTLE: It is, yes.

MR. MANNING: Page 246, 3.2.02, Physical Plant and Equipment. You had a

budget amount of $4 million, it increased by $2.6 million, under Grants and

Subsidies. Can you explain that?

MS THISTLE: That is our ongoing contribution to the MUN Opportunity Fund.

Our commitment this year was $2.1 million. That now brings up our total

commitment to date to $26 million. Is it Bruce? The additional cost and work

associated with brick work is the remainder. Sir Wilfred Grenfell College,

$532,000.

MR. MANNING: Page 248, 3.4.03, Newfoundland and Labrador Student Loans

Program, a budget amount of $26 million and utilized a little less than $20

million.

MS THISTLE: The difference there was the savings due to lower interest

rates on the cost of funds, interest subsidy and interest relief. Also, the

administration costs were less than anticipated and claims for loss, under the

old program, were down. Loan write-offs were higher than anticipated, as well.

MR. MANNING: The amount of dollars in loans - when you say loan

write-offs, how much of that happens within the department? To what extent?

MS THISTLE: Well, what happens is that when every avenue has been looked

at for a loan collection on overdue loans and so on, and all possibilities have

been exhausted, we do, in fact, write off loans. The estimate for this coming

year for write-offs is - it was $6.5 million last year and this coming year

would be $9.5 million.

MR. MANNING: For write-offs?

MS THISTLE: Yes, that is correct. Of course with the new measures that we

have brought in for debt reduction, we are hopeful that in the future it will

make a significant change because, initially, students will have less of a loan

to deal with. The new initiatives brought in to give them their first job will

make it easier for payoffs.

MR. MANNING: Just down below that, on the same page, 3.5.01,

Apprenticeship Training Administration. It is a $55,000, give or take, salary

increase last year.

MS THISTLE: That was the cost associated with the retirement of two or

three employees, severance and so on.

MR. MANNING: Okay. Are you expecting more retirements this year because

it has increased from $609,000 up to $682,000, or are we hiring more people?

MS THISTLE: I will have to ask my employees for that because I do not

know the department numbers yet. I will refer that one to my deputy.

MR. HOLLETT: No, the increase this year is due to two things. It is the

salary increase, and we have also hired an additional program development

officer in that area because apprenticeship training is something we are trying

to put an increased emphasis on.

MR. MANNING: I am going to move on to give myself a break here now.

CHAIR: Okay.

The Member for Trinity North.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sorry, Minister, for coming late. I missed part of your introduction. I

apologize for that. I gather from the comments it was quite enlightening.

I just want to ask a couple of questions. One deals with 3.2.01, Memorial

University, and the College of the North Atlantic on the following page. The

increases announced in the budget, the increases to the grants provided to both

Memorial and the College of the North Atlantic - I just want you to comment, if

you would, on the issues around accountability. What is the reporting

relationship between Memorial and the college, and how does information flow

from both to the department to account for the funding that they have been

given?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chair, the revised Grants and Subsidies are up by

actually $1.6 million from the budget last year. Those increased costs are

associated with a few things. Number one would be tuition reduction. When we

look at tuition reduction we assist the university and the college in making

that. There is group medical insurance, HRDC funding, and the Labrador

association. All of that totals out to be $1.6 million.

When you look at the Grants and Subsidies up by $15 million from the original

budget last year, you are looking at a lot of things. One major one, of course,

are the actual people who work there; salary increases for support staff; step

increases; pension adjustment; health plans; tuition reduction; marine

transportation increases; Marine Institute cleaning, and Labrador Associate. All

of that totals up to be roughly $15 million.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: The second part of my comment, or question I guess, was

your comment on that relationship between the department and the university and

the flow of information in terms of its expenditure, in the same fashion as we

are sitting here today talking about your department's budget, and where we

can gain some insight in terms of your programs and services and how you

allocate your money.

In the same fashion, is there any such relationship between your department

and the university?

MS THISTLE: Absolutely. We have accountability and accounting

relationships with both institutions. Under the college act and MUN act they

need to report to this department, and that is done.

If one of my officials would like to elaborate more on that, you can go ahead

and do that.

MR. HOLLETT: In terms of the process, each of the college and the

university have their own boards which are established under the act and they

are responsible for managing the day-to-day affairs of the institutions.

In practice, what we do with respect to their budget for the year is we, as a

department, provide the precedence for both institutions with the guidelines for

the budget for the upcoming year in terms of what - the general guidelines, the

same as any department and agency would get. Then they would prepare their

budget request or their budget plan and submit it to the department and the

department includes it in its request to Treasury Board when we submit out

budget request in the fall of the year. So that is the normal process.

We would have fairly regular discussions with the executive of the college

and the executive at the university about budgetary issues or whatever budgetary

pressures they might have or whatever budgetary priorities - for example, in the

capital area, if they have problems with certain buildings that need to be

addressed, then we would discuss those issues with them on a fairly regular

basis. So there is a good back and forth between the department and the

institutions. Although the institutions are, under the acts, accountable for

managing the day-to-day affairs of both institutions.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: When they submit their budget requests to you, in how

much detail do they break that down? In a half-a-dozen broad categories?

The other day, for example, we had your colleague in from the K to 12 system

and we talked about the budgetary process for school boards. Tonight we will

talk about the budgetary process for health boards. There is a significant level

of detail which is submitted to the department for the approval process. What

level of detail do you get from both the college and the university?

MR. HOLLETT: It is a fair amount of detail. We would not receive the

detail, for example, by faculty within Memorial University or all of the

individual salaries of all the staff at the university, but they would have all

the broad expenditure categories. It is quite detailed in terms of telling us

what the operational issues and operational requirements are for the university.

For example, within their salary budget we would see their overall salary

budget. We would see how much is related to employee pension contributions, how

much for health insurance premiums, how much for step increases. We would have

that level of detail and, of course, the ability is there for the department to

sit down with them and ask any questions we might have for anything that is not

clear to us. It is something that we, in fact, do. We sit down with the senior

financial people at the university and at the college to make sure that we

understand the nature of their budget request before we include it in ours.

MS THISTLE: I have to tell you also - I would like to respond to the

Member for Trinity North.

With my previous experience in Treasury Board, I can tell you that any

request is scrutinized because we have the inside operation knowledge. We can

scrutinize any request that comes in to make sure it is valid and whether or not

it is feasible to fund such a request.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: What involvement does the department have with the

private colleges in the Province? Does it licence, regulate, control in any

fashion?

MS THISTLE: We have total involvement with the private colleges in the

Province. We are responsible for every facet of running the private colleges in

this Province.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Just a couple of other points, Minister.

Last year - my colleague raised it under 2.1.02, Newfoundland and Labrador

Student Investment and Opportunity Corporation. The $9.2 million announced in

the budget included $3 million for the Youth Opportunities Fund, the new Youth

Opportunities Newfoundland and Labrador Program. You mentioned in your comment -

I missed it, I am sorry - there was one point something for something else?

MS THISTLE: To the Member for Trinity North, that $1.4 million is a

top-up to the regular programs so we could run at last year's level. The $3

million has been designated for the new initiatives that I spoke about, but the

$1.4 million is a top up. Normally there is a base budget of $4.8 million but

last year we had over $6 million. We had a big program so we decided to top it

up to last year's levels to provide the same program.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: So you replenished the reserve in the fund?

MS THISTLE: Absolutely, that is basically what it is.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Do you anticipate - because this is an issue that

happens in all our districts, I guess. About this time every year students start

to finish university, and high schools in a couple of months time. This becomes

something that a lot of organizations rely on to be able to employ students, and

students rely on it heavily for their income for next year. Are you anticipating

investing as much of an equivalent amount of money this year as you did last

year? Because last year you said you had a very large program resulting in your

having to replenish the reserve. Are you planning to fund it at the same level

as last year or had you anticipated just using the access to the reserve?

MS THISTLE: I intend to fund it entirely like last year, which would

bring it up to about $6 million. Plus, we will have that other three of new

initiatives. So, you are looking at over $9 million.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: That is an excellent program, Minister, by the way. It

is something that -

MS THISTLE: There is a good take-up and students and employers look

forward to it every year. I believe the important thing is that it serves

basically the majority of students in rural Newfoundland who would not otherwise

have an opportunity.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: That is where it becomes really important in my

district and it makes a major difference.

The other issue is with respect to student loans. Can you tell me a little

bit about - you (inaudible). I do not want to talk so much about the write-off

itself, but the process. One of the things that I find - in this past year for

some reason I have had an inordinate number of issues to be dealt with where the

collection process and the collection agencies that are being used are using

some tactics that are less than ethical and, in fact, illegal. I have had a

couple of occasions to report some actions to the Better Business Bureau. Does

the department dictate or have any control over who does that?

MS THISTLE: Speaking from my former life before politics, being a bank

manager, you are right in what you are saying that some collection agencies use

tactics which are not acceptable to anyone who is on the other end of that

telephone. Actually, as an MHA there are many times, prior to being a minister,

I have had to get in between that situation and try to resolve it for many of my

student constituents.

What happens is that the federal portion, and also the Newfoundland and

Labrador portion, is administrated by banks. They use their own system to try

and collect default loans. However, as you are probably well aware now, the CIBC

has pulled out of that, or will be. They have given us notice that as of August

of this year we will be looking for another financial institution to take over

that process. It is the banks that are responsible for those measures. That has

nothing to do with the student aid program at all. It is the bank that uses

those tactics, which are not at all desirable sometimes.

Last year was a total revamp of the student loan program. It was the students

themselves who were part of that and it was their input we used to revamp it. In

fact, one of the suggestions they made was that there be a financial counsellor

right in the student aid office. We have provided that. Now students are telling

us that has been a great asset, because a lot of students who come to university

for the first time have not had any experience in dealing with financial

matters. It is a huge shock to get in here in St. John's or Corner Brook or

any of the college campuses - or anywhere, private training - to find out that

they are obligated for a student loan, and they have no idea of what is required

of them. Financial counselling, from the outset, is very important so they know

their responsibilities. I have to say, it is the banks that are using these

measures and they are not at all desirable sometimes.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I wonder, in light of your comment a moment ago about

the Commerce Bank changing, or that arrangement changing with the Bank of

Commerce this year, will the Province be involved with the federal government in

trying to negotiate with another lender, another bank, to take over that

program?

MS THISTLE: Yes, we are already involved in that process now and there

will be a request for proposals. I think that has already gone out to the

general public. It has been in the media. We have until August to look at the

proposals that have been submitted, do an evaluation, and make decisions in that

regard.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Will that new bank, on a go-forward basis, take a new

portfolio or will they carry over from the Bank of Commerce what is currently

outstanding?

MR. HOLLETT: What we have done in the RFP is we have indicated both as

options. We have asked each of the bidders to provide options on taking the full

portfolio, new money only, and we will evaluate what is the best overall

package, cost-wise and service-wise, for the Province. Each bid from each RFP

bidder will be responding to about six different options. So we can select the

best package overall.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: The reason I asked that question about your involvement

in the process is - given my comment a moment ago, it may not be a bad idea to

ensure - we understand that banks will use a collection agency, that is

understandable, but I think as you are defining the scope of that (inaudible)

then it might be worthwhile suggesting that it is a piece, that there are

certain standards they must use. The collection agency (inaudible) must be

registered with, or members of, the Better Business Bureau and subjected to some

kind of an auditing process or regulatory regime before they are able to engage

them. It is a very difficult time, and very unreasonable actually, in most cases

that I have had experiences, where they have been less than - I have a couple of

taped conversations where - if I had told them I was taping them I probably

could have used it but I did not; but it would result in their immediate

dismissal. If that is the practice of the firm I suspect they would have had

their licence revoked. That is how significant it is (inaudible).

The only other issue I wanted to ask you about in the student aid program is

the appeal process. I must say, in the last year or so there has been some real

improvements in the initial processing in terms of the pace with that getting

done. One of the things that I found this past year, particularly, is in the

appeal process. By the time the student - and not every student will apply real

early. So by the time they get their decision they are started and are well into

the semester before the appeal process occurs. They find themselves physically -

lots of cases here in St. John's, from someplace else. They have now either

borrowed money or staying with someone else whom they are sharing an apartment

with and having their buddies carry them for two or three weeks or a month.

There is that delay in the appeal process.

I am not over here talking about it from a budgetary perspective. The

resources you allocate for that process, is that something that has changed,

because I did not experience the same thing last year or the year before? This

year, though, it stood out for me.

MS THISTLE: I would like to say that we have had significant improvements

- like you indicated - in our student loan program. What we have found is,

students have told us that there are more improvements to be made. What we

intend to do, as a department, is an independent evaluation, now that we have

revamped the student aid package, and find out if there are some areas which can

be improved, if the process can be quicker, and find out if there are any

glitches in the system. We all know that when you make massive changes there

could be areas that need more attention. An independent evaluation will pick

that up, but I am not quite certain of the process which is in effect now. I

will pass to my deputy to elaborate on that.

MR. HOLLETT: One of the things, I guess, or a number of things that we

have done, Mr. Wiseman, to try and improve that process, we have looked at the

types of things that often go to appeal. If you made a list of what things end

up in appeal, usually it is one of seven or eight or ten reasons why people

would be denied a student loan or do not get an adequate student loan in their

view initially. There are usually six or seven or eight causes for that.

We have tried to look through a lot of the underlying factors for that to see

if there are some common things that, on appeal, people will get their loan

approved, so that they do not have to go through that appeal process, so that

there is a second level of review within the Student Aid Division before it even

goes to appeal. Those are some of the things that we are trying to do to reduce

the amount of time it takes.

We understand that it is very difficult for students. They phone us at the

office. It is a difficult case for many of them, and it is also quite an

administrative burden for the people who serve on the appeals committee. We are

trying to find ways to deal with those things more quickly and in many cases

deal with them in a way that it does not even have to go to the appeals

committee, that it can go to a second level of assessment or even a third level

of assessment within the Student Aid Division before it has to go to appeal.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Have you ever given any consideration to adjusting the

income threshold for family income for students? There are a large number of

people who are on that edge where you do not make enough money to (inaudible)

survive but you make too much for your students to qualify for a student loan.

I met with a family last weekend that are having a real dilemma because their

daughter wants to go to university next year and with their combined incomes

they just tip the scale by about $1,700 or $1,800. That makes a big difference.

If you look at the income - because it has not moved very much in recent years -

if you look at the cost of living in recent years, that has not kept pace with

either inflation or any other kind of indicators that you would use to determine

what might be a reasonable income level to expect a family to have a significant

amount of resources to help fund their children's post-secondary education.

MS THISTLE: I can identify with your question completely because I

experienced that myself. Unfortunately, the income thresholds are set by the

federal government. We have had a great lot of flexibility with making changes

to our portion of the Newfoundland and Labrador Student Loan but the federal

government sets the thresholds. You are right in indicating that, because most

families today are two income earners and everybody lives to the lifestyle of

their income. There are not too many people that are in a position to put away

funds for a child attending post-secondary education. If they do, it is probably

only for the first year.

You are right, and I would agree with you that income level thresholds

definitely need to be changed. We are lobbying, as a department, to our federal

counterparts to look at that and consider it, because I think it is out of sync

with today's cost of living.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I would agree with you very much.

Minister, not so much to do with Budget Estimates - thank you very much for

your answers - there is one little issue, and you are probably familiar with it,

the Lawrence College from Ontario planning to offer that RN program in Central

Newfoundland. Is the department in a position to make some decision on that

soon?

MS THISTLE: I had a telephone call from a constituent in Grand

Falls-Windsor who is a Licensed Practical Nurse. She has an opportunity to go on

a fast-track program to receive her RN. I believe there might be up to thirty

more like her in Central Newfoundland who want to avail of that service.

I am hearing that St. Lawrence College out of Ontario can provide that

program. I am also hearing that it would be more costly for those individuals to

leave our Province and actually attend St. Lawrence College in Ontario. So there

has been a compromise, I think, in the works, where St. Lawrence College want to

come to Grand Falls-Windsor, find rental space, and be able to offer that

program. It is roughly a twelve month program. This is the last opportunity

because even in Ontario they will be moving to a Bachelor of Nursing program, as

we do in our Province.

This individual has contacted me and she has been in contact with the

Association of Registered Nurses in our Province, and I believe also the Justice

department. This has only been received in my department as of yesterday, so I

am not in a position this morning to make any conclusion on it. All I can say is

that it is under consideration and we will give it due diligence and let my

constituent and others know in the days ahead.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: If you do not mind - and I appreciate you are not in a

position to give a definitive answer - on process, I asked a question earlier

about the involvement of the department with private colleges because there is a

regulatory regime, I assume, in place with St. Lawrence College. I have had a

couple of experiences where employers have not accepted - and that is why I know

a little bit about the certification issue - certain diplomas and certificates

from certain colleges in Ontario particularly because they would acknowledge

they are accredited in Newfoundland. So there is a mechanism, I assume, to get a

licence to operate private colleges in the Province. I assume this organization

is licensed in Ontario. They would not be licensed - I am using the term

licensed because I am assuming there is a licence issued to operate a private

college in the Province. Are they going through that application process to the

Province to look for certification to operate in the Province?

MS THISTLE: I will refer that one to my deputy.

MR. HOLLETT: We are having a very hard look at this one. This one is a

little different than normal private college programs because nursing programs

themselves - the Association of Registered Nurses in Newfoundland, I believe, is

responsible for the certification and licensing of nursing programs. This one

falls a little bit out; it is not a normal private college application process.

We have just received it. We are having a good look at this right now to see

exactly what is involved, and we will be talking to the nursing association

about it over the next week or two. It is a little different than the normal

process.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: My interest is twofold, I guess. One is, I had a call

from, not a constituent of mine but an individual who is interested in doing the

program; and also, too, in my capacity as a critic for Health and Community

Services there are some issues around the practice of nursing, because the

government has put some additional seats into the nursing program this year and

there is a fast-track program within the Province.

The other piece of that, I am glad you raised it because it prompted me to

think of an issue that I just wanted to share with you. It comes back to my

question in terms of the relationship with Memorial and the College of the North

Atlantic. There is a program, Nautical Science, at the Marine Institute, that

has a 60 per cent pass grade. They will graduate students who have that passing

grade.

The regulatory regime that defines whether or not you can get employment

within that discipline has a 70 per cent. If you do not get 70 per cent then you

are not accepted by the regulatory body. You have a diploma-granting institution

graduating students into a field and from that profession who are not able to

gain employment because there is a regulatory body that is federal that dictates

that they will not.

Right now, today, there are some eighteen of some forty-odd students in that

program who are not maintaining that average but the Marine Institute is

continuing to let them stay on in full-time studies. They have written them and

given them notice that they have to maintain their seventy average but they do

not kick them out of the program; nor do they say they cannot come back for the

second or third or fourth year. It is a four-year program, an expensive

proposition.

It came about as a result of some transition that took place in 1998-1999,

new agreements signed by the Ministry of Transport and the Marine Institute in

the accreditation of their program. I have had some discussions with the Marine

Institute - not very successfully, I might add - because there have been a

couple of students, one in my district, who have fallen through the cracks and

gotten caught in that situation. Now today, owing a bundle of money through

Canada Student Loans, his diploma on the wall means nothing to him. The Marine

Institute is not giving consideration to changing their pass requirements, which

I think is only more than reasonable. If you are graduating people into a

program and the regulatory body has a certain standard but that standard is

higher than the pass grade in the institute, there is something fundamentally

wrong with that, I believe, and unfair and unjust to the students who

participate in that program and spend good money to get that level of training.

When you mentioned about the ARNN issuing the licences and regulating this

profession, I think it is a prudent consideration on your part and I suggest

that the Marine Institute be as prudent.

I thank you very much for your answers and your input.

MS THISTLE: Thank you.

I would just like to respond to your question briefly.

That matter has not come to our attention yet, as a department. Normally what

happens in that regard, and I know it from constituency experience myself, if

there is a problem with a particular school or training program, normally the

students, probably a group of students, would make it known maybe to their MHA

or directly to the department. To the best of my knowledge, that issue has not

come forward yet.

I do know and accept that Marine Institute has high standards and they have

had great success. You look at the employment rates coming out of Marine

Institute, and it is almost 100 per cent. It is an excellent employment rate

from the Marine Institute. I guess there may be reasons for their standards;

however, that issue has not come forward. We would be prepared to have a look at

it, if it is an issue for a number of students.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: I think what it is, Minister, to say it is an issue now

- you are right about the history and the reputation the Marine Institute has,

but as a result of a new agreement signed - it is a four-year program. If you

signed an agreement in 1998 you are now into where that group is coming through,

so prior to that it was not an issue. Because of the new agreement signed it is

now becoming problematic. At the time that the agreement was signed, these

students were into their first year and now they are into their final year.

MS THISTLE: Their final year.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: That is where it became a problem.

It did not surface before because of it, but there are a large number of

students up there today who are in the program, second and third years, who have

not maintained that seventy average and, because they have not, in their fourth

year now they are going to have an exceptional year to bring the overall average

up. If you have been sailing along for three years at a sixty-five average, in

order to get sufficient marks to bring you overall average up to seventy in your

fourth year it is probably not a doable task..

It has been appealed by the Marine Institute to the Ministry of Transport but

they will not bend on it. They are stuck with these students up there who are

going to royally upset next year when they graduate and get their diploma and

find out it is useless to them.

MS THISTLE: I can certainly have my officials follow that up with you, if

you would like for me to do that.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Wiseman, we appreciate it.

I think, with the time approaching just past 10:00 a.m., we have some coffee

available for a ten-minute break. We are going to check on it. It will take a

couple of minutes. Before we take a break, are there any other questions?

Mr. Joyce, welcome back. It is good to see you again.

Mr. Butler, would you have any questions?

MR. BUTLER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: No? Okay.

The coffee should be out there anyway in about two minutes.

WITNESS: Are we going to break now?

CHAIR: We will take a break, yes, for about ten or fifteen minutes.

Recess

CHAIR: Order, please!

Mr. Hedderson.

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) certainly welcome the minister and her

officials this morning. I would just like to jump in on a couple of things. One

thing in particular, just to go back to, I guess, MUN, the College, the Marine

Institute.

With regard to Memorial and the public colleges, in the next five to ten

years, it is my understanding that there is going to be a dramatic increase with

regard to enrolment. I know this year the cohort coming out of Ontario may have

some type of effect on enrolment or programs required, and that sort of thing. I

notice in the Budget there are not a lot of extra dollars. On the Memorial side,

I believe, Minister, you already indicated that it is earmarked for the number

of things that you went down through.

Just to try to give me a sense of where we are going, first of all, is this a

real thing? Are the numbers going to increase? I know by 2010 there are supposed

to be X number of extra spaces required. Coupled with that, there is going to be

a demand for, I guess, educators, professors, whatever. I just want to know, to

just get a sense, because again I do not see it in the Budget but I just want to

know where, in a general sense, it is going.

CHAIR: Minister.

MS THISTLE: Thank you.

You are absolutely right. If you only look around Confederation Building, for

example, even around at ourselves and our officials, and I do not mean to

indicate ages here, we all know that the average age of our public servants is

forty-seven. You can through every sector. You came out of the school system

yourself, as an educator, and you know that to be the case amongst all sectors

of our workforce in our Province. Yes, we have noticed, we have indicated, we

are into a labour market study right now and we know that we will have a skill

shortage, and we know that we will have a teacher shortage.

In addition to that, we are doing active recruitment of international

students. There is fierce competition right across Canada today to attract

international students because they know that attracting international students

has a huge benefit to every province in Canada. Not only are you exchanging

cultures but you are increasing, probably, tourism by people coming to your

Province who would not otherwise be here.

We have an unique experience in our Province because we are virtually crime

free. We have a clean environment, a family setting, and many international

students are coming here because we have a high standard of education and we

have all these attributes that I just mentioned.

Yes, you are right, our post-secondary institutions will see a demand, even

though our student enrolment in our K-12 is decreasing. We have a huge take-up

now of post-secondary education students, but we are going to have huge gaps in

all sectors of employment in our Province over the next ten to fifteen years

that we are now engaged as a government in looking at a succession plan to make

sure that we have the right skills in every sector of employment in our

Province.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just to follow up on that, Minister, again I am just

looking for responsibility; because, for example, at MUN, the age of the

professors at MUN, I would think, would be more like the baby boomer age like

you were just referring to. Will the responsibility rest with them to look at

their projections for the future? The same way with the College of the North

Atlantic and so on and so forth. Is the responsibility resting with the

department to take the initiative, or would they be the ones that would be the

lead and be supported by the department?

MS THISTLE: Well, the faculty of MUN certainly know what their staff

demands are going to be in the coming years. You may have noticed, too, in our

recent Budget there was $5 million provided to MUN for research and development.

With that seed money of $5 million, Memorial University is probably able to

multiply that tenfold. As a result, they will attract bright minds right around

the world to take

part in research and development. Once those individuals are

here in our Province, they generally stay if there is a work attachment for them

to continue. That is one way they are attracting new faculty, because most of

that money will actually be used for staff itself, to hire them.

The university, in conjunction with government, and even with labour, because

they have brought it to my attention in my previous portfolio, we are working as

business, government and labour to make sure that we have the right skills sets,

the right people in our Province. We have a burgeoning oil industry and we have

resource sectors now, IT, that we did not have before, so it is only natural.

Even here in our public service we have now, through the Public Service

Commission, a Graduate Recruitment Program where we hire five - fifteen rather -

we started out with five and that has now elevated to fifteen students every

year, so that we can train these students and hopefully they will stay in our

public service so they will, in years to come, be in the roles that we see here,

in those roles.

We are on top of it. We know what is ahead of us. I think it is going to

create a lot of opportunity for our young people.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just to branch off from that, Minister, with regard to the

programs, and I am not going to go down through all the programs, the statistics

have been compiled, I am sure, within the department as to how many - you just

mentioned five now increased to fifteen with regard to that particular program

for students - is there a spread sheet or anything that is available to look at

how successful these programs have been?

MS THISTLE: If you are referring to the Graduate Recruitment Program,

that was started when I was President of Treasury Board. Of course, that was a

long time ago, four-and-a-half years ago. We noticed at that time that you just

have to, I guess, walk through our workplaces here in this building and we know

there are not a lot of young people. We have to keep renewing our workforce

because, as you have indicated, we may be faced with a lot of retirements that

we cannot backfill with a certain skill set.

In fact, there is a report that I will be tabling, I think it may be today or

tomorrow, from the Student Investment Corporation, that fund. That will outline

the number of jobs that we need in the future to fill a lot of these categories.

Those stats will be available in that booklet. It should be today or tomorrow.

MR. HEDDERSON: I just find it difficult, Minister, to get a sense of

where we were and where we are going. I know there will be a report coming down

from your department. As a matter of fact, I looked for it prior to this, but I

do not think you have released that one yet. Is that coming soon? Did you

release one on - I looked down through all of them, I did not find one.

MS THISTLE: There is an annual report. I think we might be able to

release that very soon, maybe this week or probably when we return after the

Easter break.

MR. HEDDERSON: You know what the (inaudible) is. I have all the programs,

the Opening Doors and these sort of programs, but I cannot always seem to find

the statistics associated with them. I know they are available because obviously

you are tracking who is going through the linkages; the whole gamut. I am not

going to spend a day going down through them because if those statistics are

available, and that is basically what I am looking for, if those would be

available.

MS THISTLE: I do not know if you have a copy of our Career Search -

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS THISTLE: - because there were some good stats in that one too, but we

are tracking it. We know pretty well how we will have to look at filling the

gaps in our workforce and also providing to high school students, and younger,

what some good courses of study may be so that they can catch up with our

demand.

MR. HEDDERSON: We have certainly taken a lead, I suppose, internationally

in extending our college to Qatar. Just as a sense, because I know that I have

had some inquiries as to teaching people going over to teach there. First of

all, I know Dr. Keough is heading it up over there. Where are we going with

that? I know that from my information they are increasing the staff and the

students and so on. What is the plan, just in a general sense, as to where that

is going?

MS THISTLE: The college campus in Qatar has, I guess, probably been the

most significant contract outside of Canada. For all of Canada we have a $500

million contract extending out over ten years. We have an enrolment there of 300

students and a teaching staff of fifty-one faculty. I must say, from all

indications, I am hearing that the people of Qatar are very pleased with our

campus and the faculty and the education we are providing. I believe that will

generate into new opportunities in the future.

We are already making some inroads in other parts of the world that we are

not able to make known at this time, but it has been established that the record

we have now in Qatar is excellent, superior. I am sure it is the envy of a lot

of Canadian provinces across our country. I think that will serve as a threshold

for us obtaining more international business. Of course, we have a number of

faculty here in Newfoundland and Labrador who are most anxious to have that

experience internationally. We have no trouble filling those positions. As a

result of it, it has created new employment right here in our Province because

all of these positions in Qatar have now been backfilled here in Newfoundland

and Labrador by new entrance right into the system.

It is a good thing and it certainly has much promise in the future. Distance

means nothing today, as you know, so we are establishing a great record.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, with regard to the contract, is it $500 million

over ten years, you said? What is our

part in that contract, in the general

sense again? What is our responsibility as a government, as a Province?

MS THISTLE: The details of the contract I will pass on to my deputy to

speak on that.

MR. HOLLETT: The contract itself, there are really two parties to the

contract, it is the College of the North Atlantic and the Canadian Bureau of

International Education.

The province's responsibility would be general in terms of the government

because the government is generally responsible - the minister is generally

responsible for the operations of the College of the North Atlantic.

I am not sure if there are some specific things that you are wondering about

within it, but what the contract specifies is what the obligations of the

College of the North Atlantic are with respect to providing all of the

curriculum, providing all of the instructional staff and providing for the

administration of the college there.

The Qatar government is responsible for all of the costs of the faculty

salaries while they are there, plus a small premium which is paid to the College

of the North Atlantic. They are responsible for all of the capital and operating

costs of the college while it is there and the operating costs of the management

board of the Qatar campus. So the Qataris are fully responsible for the costs.

The College of the North Atlantic is responsible for the administration and

instruction.

MR. HEDDERSON: So what we are getting out of it - is there a possibility

that some of these graduates may be coming into this Province or this country?

Is that just a jumping off or it is an end result, basically, or is a

combination of both?

MR. HOLLETT: This is very much a jumping off point. What the college

offers are course diploma programs. They do not offer degrees. Many people doing

the three year diplomas at the college wanted to go on and complete a university

degree. They can do that through the Marine Institute, Memorial University and

get a bachelor of technology degree. The strategy, in part, is that once many of

these people finish those programs at the Qatar campus then they will want to go

on and complete a further degree. It will be very seamless for them to come to

Newfoundland to further their studies. So that is an additional benefit that is

not part of the contract but it is part of the overall strategy, on both sides.

MR. HEDDERSON: Curriculum wise, Bruce, what is the main emphasis in that

country? What were they looking for? Are there any research components in this

for us?

MR. HOLLETT: The main thing that they were interested in initially were

the technology programs, the engineering technology. They were interested in the

health sciences programs. They are also interested in the business

administration programs.

Over the past year and a half since the contract has been signed - almost two

years now - they have shown an increased interest in some of the other programs

at the college. Additionally, while there are no specific research and

development components specified in the contract, those are developing because

there are private companies involved in the oil and gas industry in Qatar which

are catching on to what is happening at the College of the North Atlantic there.

They are sending their employees here for some contract training at the Seal

Cove and Placentia Campuses. When they see and become exposed to the research

facilities that we have here in the Province, mainly at Memorial University in

the Institute for Marine Dynamics, National Research Council, it is all part of

an overall package that is very attractive to them. It is leading to, and will

lead to, business and research opportunities here.

MR. HEDDERSON: The only other question on that is, I have had some

inquires about getting a job over there, especially from some of the educators

in the K to 12 system. It seems like you have to have certain qualifications and

some established educators. I guess the newer crew coming out would have the

training but not necessarily the experience. I understand the college is

offering a course or whatever. Could you just elaborate on that, as to what has

been done to make sure that anyone who is over here and available can almost be

fast-tracked, especially established educators?

MR. HOLLETT: I am not aware of the specific details of what the college

is doing in that regard. The College of the North Atlantic has been fully

responsible for doing all the recruiting there. Typically, if they were having

difficulties with their recruiting efforts then we would become aware of that.

To this stage, I am not aware of any difficulties they have had in that regard.

MR. HEDDERSON: With regard to that, too, I know that there are some

instructors from the other provinces. Obviously, I see no difficulty in that.

There is not a Newfoundland and Labrador first priority in this hiring, is

there?

MR. HOLLETT: In fact, there is, because the College of the North Atlantic

is responsible for doing the hiring of instructors and the Qataris have

expressed a preference for faculty and staff from this Province. When they did

their initial assessment they visited a number of provinces, looked at the

colleges there, looked at the faculties there, and they looked at - as the

minister mentioned earlier - a lot of the social and environmental factors in

Newfoundland, with respect to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. They liked what

they saw in this Province. So, yes, they do have a preference that, where

possible, faculty and staff come from this Province and that college system.

MS THISTLE: I might add that, when we were reporting from Qatar on the

situation over there now, to the best of my knowledge I think there is only one

individual from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador on the staff there. Do you

have those numbers? That was an individual, I think, from P.E.I.

MR. HEDDERSON: The reason I mentioned it, the reason I know, Minister, is

that when the war broke out over there I was obviously concerned about our

people. I thought there was a printout that indicated that there were four or

five from the Atlantic Provinces; more than one.

MS THISTLE: There are fifty-four employees, and fifty-one are actually

from our Province.

MR. HEDDERSON: So, there are three. I thought there were a couple. That

is why I asked.

MS THISTLE: Sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, I would just like to go through a few more things in

a more organized fashion, I guess, with regard to the Budget Estimates. Just to

get back to the advisory group, the release yesterday, Minister, we do have a

youth group that are certainly involved in putting forth the recommendations

that they feel are necessary, some of which have been acted upon. There are a

couple from the Youth Services and Post-Secondary that they talk about and that

is, you know, developing directly, but on these recommendations, obviously the

government was under no obligation to implement them.

Are there any of those that you see that will be implemented as a result of

the release yesterday? I do not know how many there are, but there are a couple

directly for this department, for example. Where is it taken from? Does each

department look at it or, as lead minister, are you going to be going and saying

this should be done or whatever?

MS THISTLE: The interesting thing about that Youth Advisory Committee is

that there is a group of fifteen young people ages fifteen to twenty-nine, and

they are from all over our Province, and it has been set up so that we have a

good combination of age groups, gender and geographic locations. The young

people, you know, set their own rules. That was surprising to me when I attended

my first meeting with them a couple of Sundays ago. They have no executive. It

is just a flat line. They do not have a president, vice-president or a secretary

or anything. Everyone is on an equal status and when they have meetings in

different locations, the host location is actually chairing the meeting. I

thought it was such a great idea. I think us adults can take a lot from that.

They are selected by application. Anyone across the Province can apply. You

would not believe the credentials those young people have and it is very

difficult, I tell you, to make a selection. The officials actually go through

the applications and they bring the recommendations forward to me as minister.

The recommendations that were compiled in their first annual report, many of

those have already been implemented as part of our student loan program,

revamped last fall. When the recommendations come forward, if they are not for

my department, I will automatically make sure that the minister for whatever

department is referenced is briefed on that recommendation, and we will follow

it up, get a response from that particular minister and department, and bring it

back to the young people.

Every recommendation that they bring forward will be researched and

considered. A lot of them, all of them, are real issues. They are issues that

young people are working with every day. If we see an opportunity that we can

implement those changes - we have in the past, even in the past year, and we

will do so again in the future. They have my commitment that no issue that is

presented is too small for government to look at.

I guess you have looked at the issues that they will be discussing in the

coming months. They choose their issues. Government does not pass issues to

them. They hear from young people. Some of the issues that they will be looking

forward to discussing in the coming months will be suicide and drugs. I think

these are the two top ones that come to my mind, and, of course, dealing more as

a follow-up with affordable education.

I have to commend the caliber of young people who are out there dealing with

those issues. Some are students, some are still in high school, some are

actually out working, and some are attending university. They come from all

walks of life but they are doing an excellent job. We can take a lot from them,

I tell you.

MR. HEDDERSON: The reason I asked, Minister, is because a couple of the

recommendations are: that the department maintain a directory of all programs

and services. I assume that you would want that done. Just going on your Web

site, you are like you are a clearing house for whatever programs are available.

The second one is: to co-ordinate (inaudible) government programs. Again,

because it is a youth ministry, I assume that you do that anyway.

MS THISTLE: I would like to respond to that.

You are right, we do have a directory on our Web site, but we have also heard

in various parts of rural Newfoundland that sometimes this career information is

not readily accessible. Sometimes our young people do not have the availability

of dealing with a guidance counsellor on a regular basis, and a lot of them in

smaller centres do not have the same opportunity as living in a large community.

Even though it is there, it may be in a lot of locations and it may be a little

difficult for them to find.

I think they are right in putting forward that recommendation because I think

we do need a central directory of career choices and what is out there in the

market today, and be able probably to put it into a booklet where a student can

pick it up at any age grouping and find what they need. I think that is a valid

recommendation and it is one that we are definitely going to do. It is already

done in one sense by our department, but maybe we need to make it more

user-friendly. I think that is what we are hearing.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, just to stay on that for a minute - two things.

One, the math situation. As an indication - one the recommendations for youth

conferences. Would the money be available through your department or is that

going to be - again, it is coming forth in the recommendation. Really, what I am

asking is: How much in the way of a budget is earmarked for this particular

group as to whether they can carry out those recommendations?

MS THISTLE: I will refer that to my deputy here.

MR. HOLLETT: The budget that we provide for the Youth Advisory Committee

is strictly one for operating costs at this stage. We do not provide them with a

budget to implement any of the recommendations that they come forward with.

However, a number of the recommendations that they have brought forward, both in

their annual report and in their discussions with the department and the

minister over the past two years, have been acted upon. They will be funded out

of the normal programs of the department. Any other recommendations they come up

with would have to go through the normal process, that of the department

considering it and then seeking funding for that through the normal budgetary

process.

MR. HEDDERSON: One of the recommendations is that - obviously, they get

together and either go through the Province or somehow or another create a forum

where they can talk to high school teachers and MUN professors and whatever. Is

that what you mean, Bruce, by operating? That this would be there for them to be

able to do?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, when they have their meetings in various locations in

the Province then there are the travel costs associated with that and the rental

of meeting rooms, depending on what community they are in. Although we typically

try to use College of the North Atlantic or government facilities where we can.

So those would be the operating costs of the committee. The cost of printing a

report, for example, any funding like that would be provided out of the Student

Investment and Opportunity Corporation.

MS THISTLE: I would like to speak further to that.

I want to say that students said to me - and I think they have a valid reason

for doing so. I think career choices, from what they are telling me, needs to

start in earlier grades because it is a huge decision. When you wait until you

are finished high school sometimes you can waste a lot of money getting into the

wrong career choice. This accounts sometimes for massive student debt. So they

do want to be able to speak to groups when they travel to these various

locations.

I think if you looked at the back of the report that was tabled yesterday,

you will notice that they have had a lot of people in from various organizations

and so on giving them advice and research. So that is a possibility. One of the

recommendations, as you mentioned, is probably being able to have more exposure

into classrooms and stuff like that. That is an issue we will definitely take

under serious consideration.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, with regard to the new incentives that you put

in - I think it is $3 million earmarked for it. I know that in a couple of your

releases, and even in the Budget Speech I believe, details to be worked out

later in consultation with the youth advisory or whatever. What do you mean

there? Is there some flexibility? Obviously, there must be some flexibility.

Could you just elaborate on that? What direction are you going in with regard to

that? What are the expectations of the people who are going to be advised?

MS THISTLE: Thank you.

There are actually three new initiatives. I suppose there could be four. The

top one is the tax incentive, which I definitely want users to be part of that -

stakeholders, students and other users. What we have before students now is

basically a concept of what is possible. Whereby those individuals who wish to

pay back their student loan have an opportunity now that up to 20 per cent of

the amount they would put on their principal on an annual basis can be used as a

tax credit for their income tax return. Right now they still have an opportunity

where the interest paid on their student loan, both the Newfoundland and

Labrador portion and the federal portion, can be a tax credit as well. That is a

great incentive from what I am hearing and what we have been able to work on as

a government but we want to run that by the students themselves and go into

great detail and let them know what this concept is. We want them to look it

over, research it and tell us where we can make appropriate changes and what

affect it will have on them.

The other one is the Co-op Graduate Recruitment Program. We are hearing that

it has been very difficult to acquire certain co-op work experiences.

MR. HEDDERSON: I get calls just about every other day.

MS THISTLE: Yes, and I do too, myself. This has been addressed as part of

this $3 million program. Students can actually get co-op work experience in

their field of study. That is a huge issue and we know that this will address

it. The other part was helping students to actually acquire that first job, and

wage subsidies for employers that we just talked about.

Another one is the Pilot Apprenticeship Program. We want students to have a

hands-on experience in a certain skill or trade that they would normally not be

able to do. We have set aside $100,000 in this year's budget to create this

pilot experience in a couple of locations. There is also an extra $30,000

allotted so we can educate our students and let them know that it is available.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will just take the first one, minister, that you

mentioned, which is the tax. Looking down at it, $30,000 up to $50,000, I

believe, is the scale that you have used. An argument is a resident as opposed

to a non-resident. Any consideration to giving it to - some sort of incentive to

residents who are outside the Province? Is that the sort of details that you are

working out?

MS THISTLE: The idea is actually to set an environment where we can keep

our young people in this Province. The details we are putting forward now is

that the requirement would be that you live and work in our Province. We have

heard it said in recent years that a lot of students, when they graduate, leave

our Province so they can get a higher wage and start paying off that student

loan. We know once they leave they set up roots in other locations and it is

very difficult to get them back. We know that there are about 30,000 students

out there - now working ones, hopefully - who will fall into this category

because it is based on their taxable income. If we provide a means for our

students out there to have more of an opportunity to pay off their student debt

quicker, well then they are going to turn into consumers quicker. They are going

to able to live here, work here, and raise a family and create an opportunity to

build on our present economy. That is the idea, and it is unique. It is the

first time that has even been floated across Canada. I am sure the other

provinces will be looking towards Newfoundland and Labrador to see if that is an

opportunity for them to use in their province as well.

We want to flesh out that concept with our student and user groups. It is an

idea right now that we intend to implement for the upcoming tax year. We know

that by next year, 2004, we will be ready to roll this out with student input.

MR. HEDDERSON: The way I am looking at it is, when you look at the scale

range there - which is $30,000 to $50,000 - and the students who have the higher

debt usually are the ones who have gone through the four or five-year programs,

especially at university. Many of them - the nurses and teachers who are coming

out - are hitting $40,000 to $50,000 perhaps, as a beginning wage. I do not know

if anyone can give me an indication, what would be the breakdown? Looking at the

statistics - how many will we see in the $30,000 range, the $40,000 and $50,000?

I would much prefer to see more incentive at the $40,000 to $50,000 rather than

at the lower end, which is $30,000.

Again, I am not party to the statistics. I am just looking as to - if these

are the details coming out, if someone can make a case to you, Minister, if you

leave it at $30,000 no one is going to avail of that much because most of them

are in the $40,000 to $50,000. You have a certain amount of money earmarked for

it so let's make sure that you can cater to more students rather than just the

smaller amount.

MS THISTLE: I think what we have to keep in mind here is this taxable

income, because we know that anyone who is in the $30,000 taxable income range,

their actual salary might be $40,000 or $50,000 depending on the criteria. We

know, based on that, we can capture about close to 30,000 students right now. I

think that is what is important.

With the other measures that we have brought in, like debt reduction, if we

have students out there now that meet the criteria and they are going to get

through their eight courses per year, four per semester, they have a possibility

to have all their debt forgiven, the Newfoundland and Labrador portion. Then,

with being able to deduct their interest on their tax forms, and also a portion

of the principal paid on their student loan, that will place them in a big

advantage situation of reducing that debt even quicker. So, even though we are

looking at $30,000 as the benchmark, that is the taxable income level.

MR. HEDDERSON: The co-op and the work terms, you stole my question on me

when you referenced it because it is a problematic area. What irks me a little

bit is that, you know what I mean, you have a program, whatever program it is,

you have thirty students in it and there are ten work terms available that are

sponsored. Then it comes down to, usually, whoever has the highest average or

whatever. There are restrictions placed on it. Is there any way to earmark?

Obviously, you are putting more money into making sure that more students have

the availability of the work terms. Again, is that left to the colleges or the

universities? Is it left to the instructors? Do you have it earmarked, or any

control over it?

MS THISTLE: We actually control the co-operative program when it comes to

funding it because we have a relationship with the institutions. We know what

the requirement is out there for co-op work programs, and the funding that we

are going to provide. From what we have heard, it will be adequate funding to

look after the students who would not normally be able to avail of work

experience in their field of study. Of course, we are going to look at it

benefitting the greatest number of students. There are firms out there, and

corporations today, that take co-op students on a regular basis. We all know who

they are. We want to be able to expand that to employers that would not normally

be doing this. Based on the numbers that we have available to us, I believe this

will go a large way in providing that experience for our co-op students.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know here at the Confederation Building I see a lot of

co-op students going around. What is our commitment? When I say our, of course,

what is the government's commitment to this program? How much influence do you

have on that?

MS THISTLE: Throughout the Confederation Building, through all

departments, we always hire co-op work students. You see that. You have already

indicated that. I do not think there is a department in government that does not

take co-op work students, and that will continue as part of our commitment to

the program.

MR. HEDDERSON: I basically would like to reserve to come back. I have

speaking for about a half hour so I just want to pass some time along to the

colleagues and make sure we can have enough time. If there is time at the end, I

certainly would like to have some more of your time.

MS THISTLE: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Sir.

Do any members in the back have any comments?

No further comments, Mr. Manning?

We will move the -

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I would.

CHAIR: I am sorry. You have some more? Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: I just wanted you to make sure, since we were getting up

on the hour.

Scholarships: basically, there is $148,000 that is earmarked for

scholarships. I just want to have a look at that. Again, there are any number of

scholarships that are sponsored for the students. Basically, what are we

involved with there?

MS THISTLE: Thank you.

I was looking through my notes a couple of days ago and we have available to

our students a great number of scholarships. As you know, the money that we have

been putting into the MUN Opportunity Fund as part of our commitment has allowed

an opportunity for a great number of students to take

part in an application for

scholarships that would not normally happen.

In the $148,800 that we provide, I will give you breakdown. For instance, the

physical science scholarships, we have six at $7,500; the Senior Jubilee

Scholarship, there is one at $3,000; the Dr. Barnes scholarship, Dr. Blackall,

Dr. Burke, Dr. Curtis, residences, all $1,200 each. We have a Ronald Kennedy

scholarship, $1,200; post-secondary education scholarships, forty-eight at

$1,000 each; Agricultural Scholarship, three at $1,000; Lawrence literacy award,

$500; the O'Neill adult education scholarship, five at $1,000 each; the

Newfoundland and Labrador Forest Service Scholarship, $2,000; St. Pierre et

Miquelon Exchange Scholarship, four at $2,200; the J. W. Pickersgill

scholarship, three at $7,500; and, of course, we have a provision for ties and

deferments for which we put aside $5,000. There is also $2.1 million in the

Canada Millennium Scholarship which we administer for the federation.

MR. HEDDERSON: With regard to the scholarships, they are certainly not

earmarked just within the Province and they are not just earmarked for public.

Bruce, are there ones there for private as well? I am just curious. Obviously,

if you went to a private college -

MR. HOLLETT: Certainly, the scholarships that would be given for all of

the electoral districts, those sorts of scholarships, they do not specify what

institution they are good for, so they are given to a student who might choose

to go to a public institution here in the Province, a private college, or they

may choose to go to an institution outside of the Province. Many of the other

scholarships that students locally can get are provided directly through the

institutions themselves, whether those are in the Province or out of the

Province.

MR. HEDDERSON: Because I am just thinking of the Keyin Colleges and that

sort of thing. Are any of those available? I do not think there are any

scholarships for those, are there?

MR. HOLLETT: Certainly, as I mentioned, if they were to receive one of

the electoral district scholarships, they could certainly use that, but I am not

aware of any scholarships that the private colleges themselves might offer to

students, but there may well be some.

MR. HEDDERSON: The government does not earmark anything for private, do

they?

MR. HOLLETT: No, but the $148,000 in scholarships, which the minister

just mentioned there, are not institution specific. So students can take those

wherever they go.

Any other scholarships typically that people can get, including the Canada

Millennium Scholarship, certainly that would be portable to anywhere. Any others

are all institutions specific. For example, the support we provide to Memorial

University through the Opportunity Fund, much of that is used for scholarships;

but those, of course, would be directly for students at Memorial University. The

College of the North Atlantic offers scholarships and bursaries as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Atlantic of Veterinary College, we used about $500,000

for the last number of years. How are we doing with graduates from that college?

MR. HOLLETT: We have eight students at the Vet College at any one time.

It is a four year program. We have two seats per year in each entering class. I

am not sure if that answers your question.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it does.

Again, just a follow up to that, Bruce, what are the conditions that they go

in? That they work here for a certain period of time? What are the conditions?

MR. HOLLETT: There are no conditions attached to the students once they

graduate, that they would have to come back to the Province and work. But the

experience has been that most of the vets in this Province indeed have been

educated at the Atlantic Vet College. Relative to the other Atlantic provinces,

we have a very low number of seats.

MR. HEDDERSON: The offshore training and so on, I guess that has been

phased out. Is that what I am to understand?

MR. HOLLETT: That was all funded under the Offshore Development Fund,

which is really in a wind-down process now. So, yes, those programs - there is a

little bit of money left there which is essentially last year in cleanup money.

MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Chair, I think I will leave it at that. I can save the

rest of my questions for Question Period. I will save the good ones for Question

Period.

CHAIR: I am sure the minister will look forward to those questions in

Question Period, Mr. Hedderson.

Before we move the final motion, I just want to say that I am a beneficiary

of a co-op program from Memorial University, Bachelor of Commerce, 1982. So I am

delighted with your new effort.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Whatever.

WITNESS: Look where it got you!

CHAIR: Look where it got you, yes. The rest of my class are working. I

went into politics.

We will move the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 3.5.02 carried.

On motion, Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education, total

heads, carried.

CHAIR: We also want to move the minutes from the meetings of April 7, the

morning meeting and the evening meeting of 7:00 p.m, if we could have motions

for both of those.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you, folks.

Thank you hon. members for your work this morning. Thank you Madam Minister

and your officials for the great answers to the questions.

On motion, Committee adjourned.