VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, APRIL 14, 1978 NO. 29

April 14, 1978 Tape 1013 DW - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.H . Hr. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I am pleased to welcome to the gallery on behalf of all hon. members a total of fifty-one grade five and six students from the New World Island Elementary Scheel accompanied by three teachers Hrs. hahaney, l1r. Hamlyn, and Mr. Woolridge.! know all hon. members join me in welcoming these students to the galleries. Sm;E HOli. HEl1BERS : Hear, Hear: ~lR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~! r.

Speaker, I am sure that the hon. members of the House, Sir, are aware of the fact that yesterday, I think it ~~as,record production was recorded at Churchill Falls. The first three months of the currEnt yea:-, Sir, showed a record production for the hydro generating station at Churchill Falls.rhe generating station produced 11.5 billion kilowatt hours of power a new all-time record for the Churchill Falls development.

The Acting Chairman of the i<ewfoundland Hydro Corporation,the President of Churchill Falls :orporation said that this amoul!_t represents one-third of the average annual amount and is more than 2 per cent higher than the name place plate capacity of the units, an outstanding feat, Sir, in itself. The record was achieved in spite of all the major setbacks that they have had in recent years at Churchill Falls, and Hr. Reid, Hr. Wally Reid says that the output, the record could be attributed to an accelerated repair program. So I hope now, Hr.

Speaker, that they have all the bugs ironed out and that everything will continue to go well at Churchill Falls and that they will continue to break even the record that was recorded over the past three months. It is an excellent performance, Sir, and I am sure that all members of the House would like to join with members on uhis side of the House in congratulating all those who are responsible fo~r. this record production at Churchill Falls , especially all the people who are living in the community of Churchill Falls in Western Labrador. SOllE i:iON. liEN£ERS: Hear, Hear:

April 14, 1978 Tape 1013 D\~ - 2 STATENENT:J BY MINISTERS HR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: Nr. Speaker, as most hen. members are aware,the Newfoundland pro-seal hunt campaign has concluded for this year. I w·ould now like to present a few observations based on the ne•.Js coverage we received from all over the world which shows the campaign was an unqualified success.I think it is important to ilOte from media coverage that the attitudes of most members of the international media has changed favourably towards the seal hunt.

This •is not my own opinion but can easily be substantiated by the press clippings contained in a portfolio which I will cable for the benefit of the House. I might say, Sir, in that portfolio it covers some of the coverage of t:Le seal hunt but not all of it, for obvious reasons. As you know, ~!r.

Speaker, the major objectives of our campaign was twofold: Firstly ,to inform various publics of the facts concerning the annual seal harvest : and secondl~ to counter the negative image of Newfoundl~ders and Canadians which has been generated over the past several years by strong and extensive publicity campaigns in Canada,the Vnited States and Europe by such organization as the International Fund for Animal Welfare 7 lleaded by ilrian Davies, and Greenpeace.

The major problem to overcome was the emotional impact of the Oppositions campaign and the !:act that their's was the only voice most people had heard. ·;iot only were large numbers of the general public convinced the seal hunt was cruel and endangered but also that it endangered the survival of the herd, but this opinion was shared by influential members of the news media as <Nell as concerned political leaders from around .the world. To counter this, it was decided the most effective course of action for the government was to conduct a high profile publicity campaign,backed by solid scientific fact.

As all non. members know,t~e method employe~ was to hold a series of press conferences in major cities in Canada, the United States ""..l ;,,_l~ope 1 supported by intervie1•s with Key !I.embers of .I

April 14, 1978 Tape :-lo. 1014 iti·f - 1 PREHIER HOORES : the news media. Aa of April lOth., 1973 it was still too early to assess the full impact of the campaign: except to make the following observations: One, for the first tirne,the news media in major North American and European cities, were provided with both I a factual and comprehensive report on the seal hunt. Even in Canada, where the reporting on the hunt was far more objective in 1977 than in previous years, this coverage was considerably more positive.

One major result of the media hearing the pro- seal hunt story for the first time,was the change in editorial policy from condemnation to support by such prestigious papers as The :-lew York Times, The London Times, and The Chicago Times. In addition, the news coverage of the press conferences was,for the most part,objective and in many cases exceptionally positive in relating to the pro-sealing story. T"•o, the amount of anti-seal hunt mail and telephone calls received by Canadian embassies and consulates, particularly in t.iui< <Jnited States, declined. And in some cases, Sir, the drop ,.;as significant.

At the Canadian Embassy in \vashington,for example, there were 60,000 letters of protest last year and there were less than 10,000 letters of protest this year. There was even some mail this year supporting the harvest. \Vhile we are somewhat disappointed with the reception we received in England at the London press conference, it is important to note that many of the major daily ne,vspapers such as The London Times, have been carrying what ''e consider to be both objective and favourable co=entary to,;ards the hunt.

The press conference in Frankfurt was extremely favourable. ;<e also believe it is significant that as a result of our efforts,the international media is starting to take a hard look at the financial motives of some> of the protest groups. \Vhile it is still too early to assess the full impact of our campaign, there is no doubt that a giant step has been taken in achieving our initial objectives.

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1014 ~iN - 2 PREMIER NOORES: No yardstick exists to measure the actual monetary value of the publicity generated by our campaign. lihat, for example, is the dollar value that can be attached to an editorial in The New York Times that has appeared in over 300 daily ne,,;spapers<' Host daily newspapers do not accept advertising for their front page. However, if one was to put a dollar value on the publicity generated by the campaign in advertising terms, it has been estimated conservatively that it would cost 1010re than $4 million.

I would like at this time to express my sincere gratitude to a number, Sir, of very dedicated people who sacrificed a great deal of time and effort to help us achieve gratifying results. But I might say, Sir, they did it without any remuneration other than their expenses. Our campaign team consisted of specialists in a number of fields - all of whom volunteered, ~dthout any thought of remuneration--their extremely valuable and professional services.

I ~vould like to pay particular tribute to a man who enjoys an enviable record among animal lovers ever~vhere, and a man who has devoted his whole life to animal welfare, a man, who I might add, was under constant pressure to disassociate hinself from the campaign ~•e conducted. I refer,of course to Dr. Tom nughes, Executive Vice-President of the Ontario Humane Society, a man to whom the people of Newfoundland will always be grateful. Our special thanks to Dr.

Harry Rowsell, a veterinarian pathologist from the University of Ottawa, who is also the official observer at the seal hunt for the Canadian Federation vf the Humane Societies. :Co llr. l.Jac He rcer a special adviser to the Federal Government Department of Fisheries who is also a ~ewfoundlander and to the numerous people in his department who work vith us, our sincere gratitude. The success of the campaign is also at tirbutable to the time and effort of Dr. Joe l!clnnes of Toronto who •,;as with us in every city. Hhat can I say, Sir, about Captain ~lorrissey Joimson that l1as

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1014 NH - 3 PREHIER HOORES: not already been expressed. He is a man who has already won a warm place in the hearts of our sealers and their families. No one will ever know the extent of the sacrifice that he has made on behalf of the Newfoundland people. I know that, while it is part of our job as elected representatives, I believe the people of Newfoundland would like for me to acknowledge the participation also and contributions of the hon. Hinister of Fisheries and the hon. member for Grand Falls. In conclusion, Hr.

Speaker, I know that most hon. members are wondering what happens from here on in. This is a matter which will ~e given considerable thought. I would welcome the opinions and feelings of all members of this House. I might say now we are looking towards tte possibility and avisability of hosting a symposium that would bring together various international experts and authorities from around the world in the hope and belief that we can convince them once and for all that the North Atlantic seal fishery is ecologically sound and that the harvest is conducted in the most humane manner possible.

And it is being looked at, Sir, that possibly that international symposium, with all those people in attendance, could possibly be held here in the Fall. Obviously, Hr. Speaker, we also hope that once this is achieved, they will bring back the information to the people of their respective countries. It also gives ~e great pleasure to file copies of some of the press clippings, the information on radio and television,

.April 14,1978 Tape No. 1015 All-1 PRDiiER mORES; and so on that was carried on in the campaign on the table of the iiouse. SOlfE liON. ~·l£1.1BERS : Hear, ~ear! ~ill. SPEAKER; lion. member for LaPoile. }!R. NEARY; Hr. Speaker, we are glad on this side of the liouse that the lion. the Premier thinks that there have been substantial results as a result of ti1e pr.J-seal campaign ti1at was conducte~ by the government this past winter. I would suspect, Mr.

Speaker, although I am not allowed to debate the matter, I would suspect that the hon. gentleman is probably dayd~eaming just slightly and exaggerating the government's case to try and justify the trips and the amount of money that was spent on this campaign. It was an error i.n judgement, Sir. Ti1ere were some results ,Fortunately there were a few .;ood editorials written,fortunatel~ for the Province.

It was an error in judgement and probably the latter part of the Premier's statement was ~he most crucial part, ''Wnere do we go from :1ere?" ~ell, Sir, on this side we would suggest that first of all we try and make it a Newfoundland sealing industry and not a ~Torwegian sealing industry, and if we ever embark on this kind of a campaign again that we ask the Norwegians I . I to pay at least ninety percent of the cost because they get ninety per cent of the benefits. ~~ke it a Newfoundland sealing industry, have the meat and the skin processed right here in this Province, create employment for Newfoundlanders.

I would submit, Sir, that is wnere we go from here. And I believe that if the government had used the money towards that end in the first instance, Sir, that it ''auld have servea a more beneficial purpose. But nevertheless, Hr. Speaker, we cannot disagree with the fact that there IJere a few editorials. There could ;1ave been more and probably the one who came away the real winner in most of the cities that the Premier and his cowmittee went was ~· lr. Brian Davies and his group because the Premier provided a platform for t.1is gentleman which was rather unfortunate. I do want to say a word of praise, Sir, to

April 14,1978 Tape No, 1015 Ali-2 :·IR. NEARY: Dr. Tom Hughes .Last year in this hon, House members will recall that I moved a motion that the House recognize the effort on the part of Dr. Tom Hughes and the contribution that he had made in protecting the reputation of Newfoundlanders and carrying on for a long time a one man pro-seal campaign, So we are greatly indepted to this gentleman especially, Sir, and all the other officials of the federal government that participated in the campaign. PREMIER t·fOORES: ~IR. SPEAKER: PRE!-l.IER l!OORES: :1r. Speaker, Premier }!cores. Nr.

Speaker, I would like, Sir, today on what I consider to be a significant anniversary and I always consider it to be a significant anniversarJ in this Province, that is the anniversary of the first draft of recruits for the Royal Artillery who left St.John's for overse~s exactly thirty-eight years ago on Sunday, April 14th. The draft totalling 404 men was to become the foundations of wilich was built the 57th and 59th Newfoundland Heavy Regiments. That draft, of course,was the famous !66th from Newfoundland.

They, Sir, saw considerable service in Africa and in Italy and t:'"" 59th as we know were primarily in France and Germany following D-Day. I, Sir, do not like to see anniversaries like this going by without paying tribute to them by the elected members because in those days it was a pretty significant event to l~ve the first draft of young men from this Province go overseas with the uncertainty that went with that and with the patriotism that a lot of them showed. I know, Sir, it is particularly, I ti1ink, significa~t that the Sergeant-at-i~s was a member of that draft. 501-.:E liON.

HE:·UlERS : Hear, hear !' P REiHER :·iOORES ; Al1d, Sir, to he and to the others who have survived - I think there is approximately 100 of them now out of the 404 -to he and the others that survived the appreciation and heartfelt thanks go out from us in this Province. As I say I have a personal commitment to this,my uncle Bill }loores was in that draft

-' .\pril 14 , 1973 Tape No . 1015 t\H-3 PRE..IIER :·IOOPJ:S: 4S well and I know I ~ sure ~any relatives of people here ~~e in it . And whilst it ~~des as time goes ~y the il:lportance of what happened in t hose days is no less significant . Thank you. SOi1E iiO~ . ~!EMBERS : HR. SPEAKER: ~!rt . /lEARY: liear, hear ! non . memoer for LaPoile . We join on this side of the House with the hon . tire Premier in recog:1iz ing the anniversary of the first dr aft of the Newfoundlanders that went overseas in t he Royal Artillery in the Second :vorld i~ar . The hon . the Premier mentioned the fact that the Sergeant-at - Arms was a ~ember

April 14, 1978 Tape 1016 EC - 1 of the !66th Re~imen t and I must say, Sir, that the hon . ~entleman has not lost his touch . And as ~e watch the Sergeant-at-Arms go up and down the floor of this rrou se every day, we can see that ha has n ot forgotten his trai ni n g and h e is a real credit to the Rouse of Asseably . We also h ave another veteran Sir, sitting on o ur side of the Bouse. I belie,,e there are only t wo veterans - :~ . LAI'i : The best Sergeant - a t-Ar ms in Canada. !•!R . NEA. ':': That is right, the best Sergean t-at- rms in Canada.

But, Sir, we als~ have another veteran wh o ~as not in the !66th , but who wa s a membe r of t h e Royal avy, sitting di r ectly behind ~e h ere the hon. the member for ~ ur i~ - Placentia . Burin - Placentia 1-!est . :·!R. ~EARY: Burin - Pla cent ia West (:!r . Canning) . So Sir , we d o want to congratulate all t ho se wh o are still around . Unfortunately, year a fter yea r thei r numb ers a re being reduced . It neve~ ceases to anaze me, . ~. Speaker - I hav e four kids going to school and anybody who ha s kids in school probably cannot understand why their children do not know about the Second ~ orld ~a r .

You know. we went throu gh it; we are old enough to re~em b er it, and those who serve~ in t he 59th and 166tb Regiments, of course, went through it; but sometimes it amazes ne that the kids wil l ask ou ques tions. £ven teena3ers today d~ not even reme mber th e ~econd ~'or~d '!ar . And ! think then that it is most appropriate that the hon. t h e Premie r shou_d bring it to the attention of this hon. Douse today that th i s is indeed t he anoiversar of t h e first draft that went I i I ,. ·t I ;~ ., - .

April 14, 1978 Tape 1016 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: overseas in the Royal Artillery in the Second Uorld War. And we want to wish all those, Sir, who are still around, the best of luck for the future and we hope that they will prosper and remain in good health for a long time to come. SO~E RON. MEMBERS: MR. CANNING: MR. SPEAKER: Burin - Placentia West. MR. CANNING: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Mr.

Speaker, when something like this comes up in the House, I get the feeling - it is probably the typical feeling of every Newfoundland boy or girl who went overseas - number one is that it is something that you do not boast about personally. I guess the one part of my life that my family least knows of is the six years that I spent with the other youth of the Empire and our allies. My children again - I suppose there are two things that they have not heard me talk much of in our home, one is politics, and the other is of my service to the country.

Myself, personally - in a humble way I am proud that I volunteered, proud to have served, to have had the experience; it is a great experience because it helps one in ~any ways. It has helped me as a politician, because I realize the cost of freedom - not what I gave to it, I was one of the lucky ones who came back unscathed. I had a few scaring moments, spent some time in the water; sometimes I was scared stiff and I was wishing I was back on the nice soil of Newfoundland, but, Hr.

Speaker, when I look back on those who did not come back, those who were maimed throughout their lives, those whose a~bitions in life were shattered, those who came back and could not take up what they had begun before. and of course, those we left

April 14, 1978 Tape 1016 EC - 3 MR. CANNING: behind us, Hr . Speaker, I appreciate it . I consider it is up to those who did not go, or those ~ho cid not have to go, or, thank God, those who do not have to go today, or the younger crowd in this House who were not around in time to go - if they bad been the majority of this Rouse vould be standing today perhaps, to pay tribute to their fellow members who no~ celebrate this anniversary, the leaving anniversary. So, Hr . Sp eaker, there is not ouch that I can say we can do in appreciation of those men of the army or of the other forces, .I

April 14, 1978 Tape 1017 PK - 1 Mr. Canning: except perhaps sometimes,especially we who guide this land in our political sphere at the moment,who makes decisions I think sometimes perhaps that we should all think for a few moments and just realize how free we are, of the value of freedom and what it means for us to have it when so much of the world today has not got it. We come into this House with freedom, the people have the freedom to send us in,to pick men of their choice.

I think we have got to be very grateful, grateful for those who are still with us who served overseas, more grateful still for those of our youth who did not come back. All I will say, Mr. Speaker, about all I can say about the first draft of artillery, Mr. Speaker, is this: I know many of them, I met many of them, I took

part in landing them on beaches at zero hour. I had,I suppose,what we considered in the Navy the privilege of going in five times, five different times at zero hour,among the first ships that landed on the enemy coast. I missed North Africa.

I landed in Sicily before dawn, I landed in Reggio before dawn, I landed in Salerno before dawn,Anzio before dawn, and I had the great privilege,! suppose it was- anyway we thought it was at the time, we were eager to be there, and satisfied to be there, to land soldiers by crashing on the beach of Normandy at about three minutes passed zero , or a little more than that, about seven minutes after the zero hour of Normandy. What was I doing then, Mr. Speaker? I was not going ashore to fight on the land I was then with the thousands and thousands of men who landed, those of the Army. And, Mr.

Speaker, if someone were to ask me now who went through the most, who suffered the most, who were wet the most often, who had the most miserable lonely nights of all the forces I would say that it was men such as the artillery of our regiment. They did take the hard end of the war. So, Mr. Speaker, I must pay tribute to them. They were great men. They made a good name for themselves. They wereliked everywhere they went, and they were respected, Newfoundlanders and Canadians all. And I do not think I am going too far when I say

April 14, 1978 Tape 1017 PK - 2 Mr. CanJI.ing: perhaps that the Canadian troops and the Newfoundland troops of that day, our Canadians were probably among the best, the most highly respected in Britain and elsewhere of all forces who sailed overseas, among the top. You cannot single out men who left home with the initial intent or the motive to shed their blood in their teenage and early twenties • you cannot s:i,ngle them out. They were all great everyone of them. Because what more can a man do, particulary a young man, than be prepared to lay down his life for his friends and for freedom. So, Mr.

Speaker, I must pay great tribute. I must_ say they had the hard end of it. They were wonderful tr.oops. They behaved themselves wonderfully, I know them, a lot of them personally, a lot of them are relatives, some of them are relatives who are already gone, who probably d:i,e_d early on account of their war service. so, Mr. Speaker, again I «ill impress on the youth, "'e have them in the gallery, I will impress on this Bouse of Assembly, and i.n!?ress on my fellow Newfoundlanders that the youth should learn the history of wars, why wars were fought, and what ~ars accomplished.

Sometimes · they did not accomplish very much, but it does not lessen the valour or the bravery and the sacrifice made by those who, at least at the time hoped that the results of their fighting and dying ~auld mean a better world. But I think that we

April l4, 1978, Tape l0l8 1 Page l -- apb MR. CANNING: should not lose sight of it and realize how much our freedon is worth and how we should value it. What it means is that we, of all the people in the worlu, live in the country with the mst freedom, we have the most of this world 1 s goods, we have the most opportunities. w·e may complain about the shor~age of teachers or the condition of our roads and whatnot, but I think that we should at times rejoice_ in our =reedon, be respectful to those who were men enough to deserve it, Mr.

Speaker, so that we may have something out of it, and their dying was not in vain. Sometimes when I hear lip- service to democracy, when I see those in authority abusing the rights, or even when I see those in authority not working hard enough, not being sincere enough, well, it hurts me because I do not think of them, perhaps, but the fact that people went before us who were satisfied to die for what we have. Mr. Speaker, I hail my fellow comrades today and I wish them well. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Naskaupi. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition to the hon. House of Assembly on behalf of 190 teachers in the district of Naskaupi.

The prayer of the petition reads: "We,the undersigned members of the teaching profession, residents of and electors in the district of Naskaupi in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador,do humbly petition that no reduction be made in the teaching force in this Province until all the implications of the predicted decl in in!] enrollments in our schools in the next number of years have been thoroughly examined by the proposed task force, with a view to having decisions taken which will best serve the I i . I

! April 14, 1978, Tape 1Ql8, pa,ge 2 --.: apb MR. GOUDIE: this Province., . needs of the children of As I pointed out, Mr. Speaker, it is signed by 19.0 teachers. r do not know i ·f every community in the district of Naskaupi is represented, but I would suggest that that is probably the case. In supporting the petition, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to draw the attention of hon, members of the House to some comments made over the last numeer of days by various hon. members to the content~on that there should be consultation with students and educators in terms of what sort of training we should be providing to the younger people of this Province when we think ~n terms of getting jobs. One of the positions that is in jeopardy of being abolished at this point in time with the Labrador East Integrated School Board, is a career counsellor.

Now, that one person is responsible for dealings with 2,800 students under that school board, and it is my contention, Mr. Speaker, that that is an extremely valuable position. I would recommend as strongly as possible to government that that particular position not be abolished. I do not think I need to enunciate further on the importance of that particular position. I support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, and ask that it be placed on the Table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to lend my support to the petition presented by my friend from Naskaupi on behalf of the 190 teachers.

April 14, 1978, Tape 1018, Page 3 -- a~b MR. SIMMONS: The petition calls to ~d others we have had in this House and a particular one we had in the last day or so presented by my colleague, the member for Carbonear, (Mr . R. Moore.s) . Members will recall that at that time we had a fairly protracted - certainly lengthy - discussion on the subject.

I do not want to delay the House on the matter this morning ~~cept to say that I support the petition wholeheartedly and to remind the House again that this matter - remind in particular the Minis ter of Education - that this matter is not going to go away nearly as quietly as everybody had hoped when the decisions were made which have since been incorporated in the budget. I believe that the only sensible and sane · '

T April 14, 1978 Tape 1019 EC - 1 MR.

SIMMONS : way to give the people, the teachers in Naskaupi,and the parents and teachers and others who are petitioning this House from all over the Province- and what you have seen is just the beginning of what I understand is coming from virtually every part of the Province - the only sane way to give these people whom we represent here a proper forum on this matter, give them their day in court on it to determine once and for all the question that nobody in this House has the answer to - and I suggest, nobody in the Province has the answer to - and that is the impact on the quality of education of the budgetary cutbacks.

At the very least, Mr. Speaker, it has been demonstrated by the interest as symbolized by the petition this morning. At the very least, there is concern among a widespread sector of the population, and that alone, even if their concern is misplaced, wrongly based, irrational, the fact that there is such widespread concern among such a large segment of the population, that alone is sufficient reason for us in this House to take an initiative to guarantee that these concerns are properly registered and properly heard and p"operly dealt with.

And I suggest again, Mr.Speaker, that the answer to that particular problem is some kind of an inquiry or, as the member for Grand Falls (Mr.Lundrigan) said yesterday or the day before- perhaps 'inqu:try' is the wrong term because the term 'inquiry'has taken on other connotations - perhaps we ought to be again looking at the select committee process which has served this House well and which is now for some reason in abeyance• I

April 14, 1978 Tape 1019 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: believe the last select committee we had here was the Fisheries Committee under the former member for Placentia, Mr. Fintan Aylward. And that did a tremendous job, made a number of germane recommendations to the House.

And I just call to mind, for the sake of members who were here then,particularly, the excellent work done by that particular committee as a demonstration of what can be done if you appoint five or six or seven members of this House, a bi-partisan committee, to go around the Province or whatever else needs to be done in the process of hearing the many representations now being made from quite a large sector of the population. And I cannot emphasize too much, Mr.

Speaker, that this is just not the frustrations of a group of people who do not like a tax increase or who are just overnight peeved because something is being done by government that they do not particularly agree with. Thisgoes much deeper than that, much deeper. If it goes deeply without any justification, let us let a select committee demonstrate to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that they do not have justification. I think otherwise,- I think they do have justification. But let us let a select committee of this House, Mr.

Speaker, provide the mechanism for the 190 teachers in Naskaupi,in this petition this morning,and for the many other teachers and parents and members of the public at large who are vitally concerned about this issue, and I believe they have reason to be concerned. Letus put it to the test with a select committee of this House. MR. STRACHAN: HR. SPEAKER: Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of ·!

April 14, 1978 Tape 1019 EC - 3 MR. STRACHAN: the prayer of this petition. I believe it is Labrador East Integrated? The petition on behalf of the teachers in Naskaupi, I believe, includes probably the whole Labrador East Integrated School Board system of which the jurisdiction extends all along the coast as well, with headquarters in Happy Valley. I have felt for some time, in agreement with the member for Grand Falls (Mr.Lundrigan) and the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), that there is much of our education dollar we are not getting the total value for, and I think that in the cases of most of the communities on the coast, less than 1 per cent of the students are getting beyond Grade XI. And I think, in any terms, whether one looks at it as a business in the form of investment and money, or whether one looks at it from an educational point of view)or a social point of view, there has to be something wrong with an educational system which gets less than 1 per cent of the students beyond Grade XI.

And I think that any cutbacks or any attempt at reducing the quality or the quantity of teachers as well, because obviously, one will affect the other, will have a further serious setback in a situation which is already problematic and already has some very confusing aspects to it and some very complex aspects to it, especially, of course, when we get into the realm of native education and exactly where we are going with native education.

April 14,1978 Tape No. 1020 AH-1 i1R, STRACHAN: I believe that in that aspect many times native people themselves Jo not know exactly where they are going because they are caught at the crossroads, and we ourselves in not trying to force decisions upon them are tryint; to allow someti1ing to work out, But I think the time has come when a very serious look at the situation is needed I think that tilis recent cutback in teacher education would possibly cause the thing to be focused and cause us to sit down and put together something which will give us so~e design of where we are going in the North in education in the future.

So I support the prayer of the petition. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: The United Nations Bill of Human Rights states that the right to determine the education of their children rests with the parents. :-low, !-lr. Speaker, any fact finding co=ittee that is set u~,in my opinion, to look into this matter should comprise mainly of parents•Not those who have vested interest, not those who are lobbying for one cause or another, but any fact finding co=ittee­ and I agree with the hon. member for Burgee- !lay d 'Espoir (!fr.

Simmons) that there should be a study done into tnis w:1ole matter, but I do not necessarily agree with the procedure suggested by the hen. gentleman. I t:link it should be a completely independent group. I support the petition, Sir, and I might say, Hr.Speaker, that these protests are coming in from all over Newfoundland and Labrador.

I have in front of me,for instance,just to reinstate the prayer of the petition, reinforce the prayer of the petition that was just presented by my hen. friend which I wholeheartedly support, I have in front of me, Sir, a telegram that was sent to the Hinister of Education by the Deer Lake branch of the ~7A which is in the hon. members own district. It says "Whereas the Government of Newfounuland has recently cnnnged policy on tne allocation of teachers to school boards;and since this will result in a downgrading of education in :~e-w-foundland; the Deer Lake

April 14,1978 Tape No. 1020 AH-2 HR. :-lEARY: branch of the NTA demand an immediate reinstatement of the twenty-five to one pupil teacher ratio. Signed Deer Lake branch of the NTA.P I do not know if any other han. members received a copy of this telegram. But, Sir, that is right in the minister's own I would like to know what the hen. Premier is going to do about this very serious matter, Sirl The whole educational system in the Province is being thrown into chaos, into turmoil, into complete disarray by the hon. minister and the hon. Pre:nier just sits back.

It is too serious a matter, Sir, to let slide b~ In supporting the prayer of the petition, Sir, I think-and I have been saying this for a long time-that there should be a fact·findL~g committee set up at once to look into the whole matter of education in this Province~ to see if we are headed in the right direction and if we are getting the rigi1t value for our educational dollar. ~. SPEAKER: The ;.on. Minister of Education. NR. HOUSE: Nr.

Speaker, in speaking to ti1e petition I just - perhaps all I will have to say is to reiterate what I said yesterda~ the status of tha situation is that we are setting up a committee to look at the problem that is being enunciated by the teachers now. I want to just point out that there are,of course, telegrams and messages coming from across the Province, ri2ht aero~~ the Province, from my own district - I am not going to change it for my own district, I cannot do it of course. A..\1 !:iON. i-!EHBER: Some ministers wnnltl. ilR. HOUSE: Well,that is alright.

What I am saying is I am not convinced, nobody has convinced me yet that tl1e whole issue is quality education. I know there is an organized way of bringing ti1is to the attention of gover=ent, and I think it has beea done. I just waLt to point out in speaking to the petition that with regard to the 190 teachers sending li1 the petition from Nas~aupi,it takes in both school boards in that area. A.~ci for the benefit of members I would like to point out that therse two boards in that area,

April 14,1978 Tape ~o . 1020 AH-3 :-11\. HOUSE: in the nin,e designated colli!Dunities have iln ext::a fifty-one teachers ove r and above the ordinary for ~ewiocndland . Then ve get the hon . wember for Eagle Rive r (Mr. Strachan) just saying the standard is not high enough 1 and I know it bas so~e ramifications for the desisnateci communities .

The other thing about the ~uidance counsellor there, Ye have not couched any of the following categories , the supervisory personnel , ~e have not touched the special education , we have not touched the specialists allocations , :J..one of that has been touched One of tile boards vould have lose seven teacher s ~ecause they a re gone below one to twenty-five, if there ~~ a one to rventy-five,

April 14, 1978 l1R.. HOUSE': MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: Tape No. 1021 so it was affecting them by one teacher. You are not supporting the petition. I am alluding to the petition a~d saying llli - 1 that certainly I support them keeping their guidance counsellor, but it is the responsibility of the board to see that their guidance counsellor is kept.

For the benefit of the Rouse of Assembly, I would like to just give a few statistics. c!e took a survey of three boards and met with, or sent circulars to 100 p£r cent of the teachers in three representative boards in the Province and received back from seventy-two per cent. And just listen to this, and here is board one if I may have the - Board one, grades one to three, and this school board has a puril/teacher ratio of one to twenty-six. They are not being affected this year. they have a higher pupil/teacher ratio than the boards that are being affected.

In grades one to three the average number of pupils that a teacher teaches in that particular board is twenty- three. And the highest number that any teacher teaches is twentv-four. In grades four to si..'C, the average number of pupils that a teacher is teaching there is twenty-five, the highest that any one is teaching is t~'enty-eight. Gradas seven to nine, the average number of pupils twenty-five, the highest that any teacher is teaching is thirty-three. And grade ten and eleven, the average number of pupils that the teacher is teaching is t~~enty, and the highest number is twenty-eight.

And it is noted there that there is-of course, whe::1 it gets to the :1igh school they get a little bit higher- high school and junior high - but these teachers have a lot of time off. And goit•g on right through the three ':Joards, and they are representative of the Province, we are finding people coming in and saying to us, "We have to cut out Physics, or Pe have got to cut out

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1021 llN - 2 llR. IIC1USE: something else;' when in e:•cess of t1~enty per cent of ~he time is non-teaching time. For instance,out of a forty-two period cycle in six days, teachers have nine periods free til:le. You know I say- well supposing the cutbacks are having an effect, if there are a couple of periods less, you know, certainly that would not have any effect on quality education. I believe that we have to take a look at the whole thing, and we are doing now a survey of all the boards in the Province in this respect.

So it does not seem to me that teachers are overworked, it does not seem to me there is going to be any impact on quality education. And I further believe that,you know,teachers are like everybody else, this is the first time they have come up against a situation where job security is a factor. And do not forget that it is not only quality education, job security is also an important factor, and I think the public should know that too. :·JR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Port au Port. HR. J. llODDER: ~k.

Speaker, I believe it was last Wednesday we asked the government to change the motion on Private Members Day to debate education. 1be only way, and I realize that we cannot debate education through petitions, but the only way that we are going to be able to debate this particular thing is to get it out on the floor of the House and get it out quickly. :3ecause, Hr. Speaker, in light of the support for the teachers across this Provine~, and for students,and the concern about the quality of education, in light of that I think the government wust reconsider. There is a task force.

I do hope the terms of reference have been drawn up and the groups who are to participate have been asked and things are moving quickly. But one thi:1g that bothe:::s me about that task force, llr. Speaker, is that there are an awful lot of vested interests there. And I think that 1·/e should have some independent look at education: because I believe t!1at if - and I know that one of my colleagues also called for a select committee - I do not care how we do it, Nr. S;>eaker, but there must be a 1>ay .I

April 14 , 1978 Tape No . 1021 N:l - 3 !>!R. liODDER: that the members of this House can get i~to the schools and see what is happen ing. a~cause when the tliniste r says that th e quality of education is not suff ering, he is wrong, t.nd ~e is •.trong and he ia::o•.o~s he is wrong. But, :·tr .

S?eake r , as I said yest erda y when I spoke to a pet i t ion, it is the dis advan ta ~ed chil dr en in t!lis Province ~;ho are suffering. 1 have seen a:td talked to e.:tough teachers and enough pr incipals since t hi:> issue came up, a~ I am fally convin ced by lookins at the situation- not t he bogus issue of. you know - I !~ow teach ers jobs are involvec and all tha t sort of thing . sure , that is t here - t ha t t here are p robl~ in the schools in this Pro vince . ::ven '-'it!\ a twenty-five to one pupil/ teacher ratio . Parti cularl y when you have ..

April 14, 1978 Tape 1022 D\ol - 1 HR. HODDER: in some schools, depending on the type of programs they offer,principals in certain types of schools that do not teach, ·you have vice-principal 1 s that cannot teach.. Ti.en you have schools which might have what some people call frills like industrial arts and home economics where you require very small classes. The minister can get up and take specific schools that look good here in the House, but I doubt very much if ,an inquiry into what is going on in the classrooms would show the facts that the minister puts out here in this House of Assembly. HR.

SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burin - Placentia West. l';R. CAi~1HNG: Hr. Speaker, I support the petition but I do not stand up as an authority on the teacher - pupil ratio. Although J was amoung other things· about four or five years ago I considered myself a teacher when I ti'as at the university JUt what I found was I went intr politics. ~fr. Speaker, I really dicl not find much use for what I had done at the university except one subject. Br. Speaker, I took child psychology 7 then I took adolescent,and I went on a bit further.

In the last few weeks, particularly, I could have used ;ny chilcl pshvchology on some people. Although at the time I did not agree tvith tvhat you should do about :.hildren when they ,;ot mad, :•hetLer you should bang them or put them upstairs or whatnot, }ir. Speaker, I have realized in the last feti' days that my teacher 1 although I thought ,1e was old fashioned, "as well ahead of her time and the solution that she gave me to a naughty child, I think, could be very •well put in effect here in tnis House of Assembly. Anyway,}lr.

Speaker, I am now wasting th! time of the aouse,sometning that I am critising all the time. But why I stand up, ~lr. Speaker, is during the last two weeks·! mentioned yesterday I have been contacted by pi:10ne, this is no exaggeration,and by letter J and by a form that 1 was asked to sign which I have signed, l-'r. Speaker, fro"'' ,without exaggerating 2,000 people in my district :.consisting of parents and the teachers. l:r. Speaker, the hon. minister just 5aid- it vJ ill not affect

April 14, 1978 Tape 1022 DW- 2 HR. CAl'INING: the quality of education, but-, Hr. Speaker, I cannot take ·t~at from him until he brin2s in ornnf. We will have to debate it or something else because I have had forms from teachers,dedicated teachers. Yesterday I had one from a good nun who is principal ~ school, a dedicated woman wno nas probably spent twenty years in the classroom.I am sure she has no political axe to grind,I imagine she is impartial as far as w·c a-::c concer.1.e~ in here,but when I get that col!ling from my district, Hr.

Speaker, I want more proof that this is not going to affect the quality of education. Sometimes I find the phsyical fitness teacher has to go, or is about to go, or apparently would have to go. and I find another one a few days ago 7 and it was mentioned ~everal times that the less forturate children,those who have it more difficult to learn will be deprived of a teacher. Hr.

Speaker, there are a lot of children opposite me no11 pretty young.I do not think there is anyoody in this House, I hope there is not,who wantsany of those children to be deprived of preparation for the 1i fe nefnre J:hem becau,;e thev are: the oeoole who will rule this country after we are gone and I hope they will do a much better job than we did. I hope they will take example by what good we have done and I hope they will learn from where we go wronf. No, ~ir.

Speaker, I will orime myself to stand in this House everyday if this is brougi1t up,or petitions are brought in because I have got to .Je convinced by a lot people, by somebody who has to bring me plain truth by decent debate, not by yelling debate,but by good,sensible,solid debate by people who will show their interest in the children of this Province, the youth of this Province. SOliE HON. ~!EHBERS: Hear, Hear! But, Hr.

Speaker, I cannot accept what the minister has just said,and I do not want to misquote," That the quality of education will not be affcct:ed by this pupil - teacher ratio." He has said that now, and I listened to hil'.I have great respect for 1lim

April 14, 1978 Tape 1022 ow - 3 HR . CANNING: I do not know him too 1·:-:!ll , I do not what sort of minister he is going to turn out to be. I am ~ettin2 very bad reports .m him lacely.,.but I will take that for what it i .s worth and examine it Cl}'Self before I judge tne ma:t. aut .~·r. Speaker I XS. HOt~. ML'1.B£R: The llliniste.t ·. ~r . Speaker , r ~holly - what do you mean the man or the minister? AN 1104-i • ~!t~:BER: The ministe r .

April 14, 1978 Tape 1023 PK- 1 MR. CANNING: Well we have ministers, and we have ministers who should be referred to as ministers. I would not want to refer to them as men ,some of them. But they are ministers by luck, by whatever you would call it, by accident, some of them are who certainly should not be. They are not qualified for it. Some of them are, some of them are great fellows. Anyw2y, Mr. Speaker, like I said the minister just said again today in the House, and he said it three or four times that the quality of education in this land will not be affected by the policy that they have bought in.

Now he may be right I do not know. I am not one of those to get up and pretend that I know everything. I do not have the answers to everything, but, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see a civilized debate, not a name calling, what do they call it, a Kangaroo court, not a Kangaroo court or anything - you take the most childish thing in the world whatever that is, not that kind of a debate , I am not going to say a schoolboy debate because it would be much better. Mr. Speaker, I would like to see this House getting down to serious business and bringing the serious matters to this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. CANNING: And let us do what we can with it, because as far as I am concerned if we are going to talk on the fisheries, that is important. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CANNING: We are after talking on paved roads, we are after talking on everything else but there is nothing else in this land more important than the education of those children that we have listening to us here today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CANNING: Nothing else. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

April 14, 1978 Tape 1023 PK ~ 2 MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the han. gentleman, I would remind all han. members that, well obviously, if they speak in support of the petition, and the petition refers to the pupil-teacher ratio, and any possible affects on the quality of education that an alteration there.mi~ht have. that they may not get into a debate some pro and some contra on various points of views. The han. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am prompted to rise to speak to this petition because of the eloquence of my han. colleague for Burin­ Placentia West (Mr.Canning).

Also, of course, because I have some understanding and some feeling for the particular school system that the han. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) represents. I wonder is that the system that includes Robert Leckie, the Robert Leckie High School? I was very nearly the Principal of that school, and that was in a tiJne when there was an oversupply of teachers. There was great pressure on me to go to that school to be principal but I opted instead to remain in Churchill Falls, and I have actually felt a little sorry that I did not go over and administer the Robert Leckie High School. But, Mr.

Speaker, I sincerely and whole-heartedly support the petition knowing some of the educational problems of that board. There seems to be two issues that we should concern ourselves with when we talk about teacher cutbacks, and these are quality education and educational opportunity affording our students equal educational opportunity. And I maintain that when we have teacher cutbacks,as we are presently having,that it certainly must affect educational opportunity, equal educational opportunity a point that we are not emphasizing nearly enough.

I alluded to the fact yesterday that I had studied a finding or a review conducted by the minister's department that showed the tremendous discrepancy between course offerings, between a variety of courses throughout this Province, I alluded to the fact,and I think it was just in the Integrated Board itself throughout Newfoundland,that the course offerings to students at high schools range from a maximum of thirteen to the bare

April 14, 1978 Tape 1023 PK - 3 Mr. Lush: minimum of si.x. And I would say t.hat in the bon. member's district of Naskaupi 0-!r. Goudie) that the .re are many schools that are just doing the bare six. Now some members have been suggesting that there is no relationsh i p between quality and the number of courses.

Now, I can understand that because that is certainly a very conservative view that is certainly a very traditional, a very conservat i ve, a very narrow view that we only offer the bare minimum of courses, and do these well.I£ that is the philosophy, then that is fine offer six courses, offer seven courses, but let us make sure we do these courses well. Restrict t.be variety of I course programmes, bu·t make sure we build in quality . As I have said that is a I I ,I

April 14, 1978 Tape :<a. 1024 i:lH- 1 ~!R. LUSH: very narrow view.

If han. members were asked the question, I am sure today, whether they •.rould prefer their students to go to the school that is offering the thirteen courses or whether they would want their students to go to the school that is offering six, I am sure if hen. members were thinking properly, and thinking in terms of a good education for their own children, and meeting the needs of their own children, that they would opt to go to the school that is offering the thirteen so that the needs of their children could be met better rather than sending them into a school of six programmes that was restricted,and almost a very restricted programme, with no concern at all £or meeting the individual needs of the students.

So, :-rr. Speaker, I maintain that the cutbacks in education are related to two things, they are related ~a quality education and they are related to equal educational opportunity and it cannot be otherwise. Just another comment~ The minister in speaking a moment ago, alluded to the fact that teachers had twenty per cent time free. I do not know what the point was, wheti1er he was suggesting that they should not have this time free.

If there is any group of people that need twenty per cent time free, and I do not call it time free, it is preparation time, I can assure you teache~;s teaching today, with all the problems that they encounter, everyone of them need and deserve the twenty per cent preparatio~ time and it should be mandatory because many of them are not as privileged as the minister is talking about. They are not that privileged. It should be mandatory that they be ~iven twenty per cent ~reparation time so that they can do the ·.wrk that they l1ave to do.

That is che very minimUill thing that s;1ould be permit ted and I see no reason why the minister referred to it at all. And I, just in closing, :rr. Speaker, would like to say that I support this petition whole-i~.eartedly. :lR. SEINONS' iJas he against the preparation time? :IR. LUSH: He mentioned twenty - i·IR. S~HONS: cfuat? ,,., lJ...."'I.. LUSH: I do not knm.;r. ile mentioned it. I do

April 14, 1978 HR. LUSH: HR. SHJHO:-<S: ~JR. SPEAKER: ~JR. LUNDRIGA.'l: Tape No. 1024 not know what the point waA • .iloys oh boys! The han. member for Grand Falls. l1r. Speaker, just so that we are not totally outnUlllbered in our participation rate here, I just want to say that I think it is just about time that we really seriously consid2red, and I say this to the House Leader, some form of being able to have this issue properly investigated by members of the Legislature, where we can receive input from the teachers and the parents and the school boards around our Province.

I have listened to the remarks here today and there is a little danger that these ldnds of issues can become political issues where,in fact,the real core of the issue is not explained at all, is not explored at all. ;Jecause we cannot take an issue like that -first of all it is not a simple pupil/teacher ratio. Everybody agrees with that.

It is not a simple pupil/teacher ratio, but that is the easiest "ay to sell it, that is the easiest way to get it across,and that is the easiest ·,my to make the point that if there are fewer teachers, or ;nora ~upils, whichever way you want to balance it out, therefore it follows that there is less of a quality education, therefore this follows, therefore that follows. There are a lot of issues involved right here. One of the issues involved is the size of the school unit. I have alvrays been concerned that in the ?rovince we Hent too quickly towards the larger unit, too quickly towards the centralized system.

That is one of the reasons here that ten per cent of the cost of the salaries of teachers today, approximately, goes into busins students. $12 million for ~using students, and then we have to put on recreation programmes because they do not get any physical exercise to try to help t hel!l get back in shape again. That is a question that needs to be analyzed, ~he siz< of the

April 14, 1978 Tape No. l 02t. :m- J :iR. LUNDRICA.'l: school u:~it. ! ra ised a q uestio:~, and I raise it again t~ith the mi:tister about the relationship beween the adminis trativ e cost and the classroom teac her cost. What is the balanc e today ·dth what the bal ance was fiv~ yea r s ago?

Can ·te l!:easure th~ r;ua!.i ty of e6ucatio n five years ago on ~~ e qua!.ity today ,: can Ne conclude because :.~e have ~ore supervisors, tbe ~inis t er says 170 ! believe , more superintendents, more curric ulum s pecialists, t::are curriculWll ge:1er al.is t s, more depa rtmen t heads in t he schools, more school board per so=mel , more school board :nanagers, m.ore school ~oard cle r ~ and all of these typ~s of people, can we cor.cluue because of that that there is a better quali ty of educa t ion? I would lil•e to know what the teachers have to say .

I really would like to know if t:le classr!)O'CI :eacher, when the question .-as analyzed , ._.oul d say, ''Yes , ·.te :1eed more of that," or "mayoe we need t..J re-~has :h:e i t, :!aybe we have gone a ~i t too far . " I would like to k:\ow what they say about the curriculUlll ?tocess . I would like to know what is happeni.:1g in our ? r ovince :.~ith the use of electronic oedia

April 14, 1978 Tape 1025 EC - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: to help engage with the student body. Have we gone far enough with educational television? Is it becoming a major tool so that we can shift the emphasis a little bit? It is a complicated question. What we are doing here every day is touching on the periphery of it and we are talking about it - that is good. I hope we do a good bit more about it. MR. CANNING: (Inaudible) agree on that. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I agree on that, the hon. member distinguished himself on two occasions this morning and he needs to be commended for it.

The strongest statement he made was on education- I was very pleased about it - as a person who spoke right from the heart. And then I listened to people speak, as the professional teacher, my colleague from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), and I appreciate their remarks. But I think we have reached the stage where we have to make it a little less political. because let us face it, all of us now from your NTA to your school board to your politician are interested in the politics of it.

I am not talking about the P.C., Liberal, N.D.P. politics, I am talking about the appeal to the population of our Province, that type of politics. What I would like to see us do is formalize a system or a way through the Legislature, as the member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) suggested, to have a number of people sit and meet, and spend two or three months analysing the question. I believe we would come up with maybe the conclusion that there needs to be more attention to the pupil/teacher ratio, but I think we would go farther than that and we would find that there are many other aspects - AN liON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible)

April 14, 1978 Tape 1025 EC - 2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: Well, it is bacon today but it is bacon most times even when the member is there. Mr. Speaker, I think that we would find that there are a number of areas there where we can usefully advise and maybe make some changes in the educational field, but I do not think we should get taken in on the pupil/teacher ratio as the only issue. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. ~R. ROUSSEAU: ~r.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Occupational Health and Safety In The Province." SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE !!AS BEEN GIUE~T MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Finance I have tabled the answer to Question No. 33 asked on the 20th day of March, 1978 and the answer to Question No. 13 asked on the 14th day of March, 1978. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I notice the hon. the Premier is not in his seat.

If the hon. the Premier will just slide over, and I hope the hon. gentleman is in better humor today. Sir, in view of the fact that the Minister of Consumer Affairs has not been in his seat for several weeks past now, and rumour has it that the hon. gentleman intends to resign from the Cabinet - I am aware that the han. gentleman, Sir, unfortunately, may not be feeling well; I am sorry to hear that - but would the . i

April 14, 1978 Tape 1025 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Premier indicate if he has received the resignation from the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs or has the minister indicated to the Premier that he intends to resign in the next few weeks? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES : MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. The answer is no, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Trinity - B~y de Verde followed by the hon. the member for Burgee Bay ~ 'Espoir, the hon. the member for Eagle River and ~he hon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries,in view of the statement that he made yesterday concerning the information desks,whether he has reconsidered a locationfor an information desk for the Labrador area? MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I indicated yesterday that these desks will be established where they are required. My information is that such a desk is not required in Labrador, that the severity of the glut problem is not as great there, In fact, I am not aware of any really serious problems concerning a glut situation in Labrador.

And even if we were to establish a desk in Labrador, I am not sure that it could function as it should. The idea of setting up these regional desks is to co-ordinate the transportation of fresh fish from the boats to the processing plant. Of course, in Labrador, that might not be possible, but certainly, I can give the hon. member an assurance that if it is found that a desk is required in Labrador, well then, certainly we will establish one there. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Trinitv - Bay de Verde, a supplementary. MR. F.

ROWE: Sir, in view of the fact that there are two information desks very close to each other

April 14, 1978 Tape 1025 EC - 4 MR . F. ROWE: Gander and Grand Falls, within about forty minu te s driving distance of each other,also in view of the fact that there is a glut problem in other sp ecies on th e coast of Labrador, and t he ability of the fish er~en and the buyers to handle, for instance, h e rring because of the lack of barrels and what have you, would t he ~inister undertake to g o back to the original commit t ee and review the situation with respect to possibly eliminating one of the centrally located info r mation desks at eithe r Gra nd Falls or Gander, beca use they are next door to each o t her , within forty­ five ~inutes or so, and reconsider one for Labrador, Sir?

April 14,1978 Tape No. 1026 AR-1 l:R. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. ~lR.\1. CARTER: The fact that the desks in Central Ne~oundland are reasonably close together certainly does not take away from their importance because thE one in Gander of course will have a very wide area of responsibility as indeed will the one in Grand Falls. ar.

Speaker, the recollllllenclations that I have accepted I ahould point out were made by a committee of wl1ich 1~e had the Fish Frozen Trades Association, the Salt Fish Processors, the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation and the union so I am echoing in a sense,I suppose, their views and to be quite honest I am not competent to question their advice. If they say that a desk is required in Grand Falls and GanC:er well tl1en I have to accept that advice, especially in light of the ~nqui~y that was undertaken last Summer by the committee appointed by me. I repeat there is no need fnr " desk in T,,.h,-;onn,..

T-F •.Je find there is a ~lut in that area t:"1en we will establish a desk do"-n there. HR. F • R.O'.o/E ; ;,rr. Speaker a supplementary. A supplementary. :>!R. F ·"'-OWE: ar. Speaker, on Open Line this morniag,if I heard the minister correctly,he indicated that the personnel manning these information desks are going to be volun~e~rs.

I ~istinctly hear~ that, Sir • Probably ii that is not correct the minister could, if he wishes to, indicate who will be mamling those uesks, whether they will be vol~ntee~s or not, whether they are governmental personnel, industry personnel and i1ow long they will be Ulanning those desks. Not how long in the day, we know that already. :m. '.ol .CARTER: Certainly, to my knowledge I did not make that statement. ~ais morning.

I did say that the desks would be manned oy two people operating from 6:00 : .• :1. i:J. tile worning until 9:00 P.i·l. in the evening six days a week, two people,paid people.That the progr=e would be r..tonitored by an overall supervisor, hopefully I .J i

April 14,1978 HR.W.CA.~TER: Tape No.l026 AH-2 somebody from within the service and that it would report to a Jlana:;ement team made up of Hr. Gus Ctchegary, Vice-President of Fishery Products, }Jr. Bud 0 1 Brien, President of the Fresh Frozen Fish Association, Hr. Bren Kennedy - I believe it was from the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation, a gentleman from the Salt Fish Processors Association and Hr. William Short an official of the Fishermen's Union. That committee will be working without pay, that committee will be responsible for the overall administration of these desks AN liON. HID-ffiER: :..1R.

W.CART:C:R: \fuJ will man the desks? The desks will be manned by two paid people, paid by the Department of Fisheries for a three month period. Once the glut problem ceases to exist, in maybe August, these people then will be paid off and the programme will be assessed and hopefully improved for the coming years. HR. SPEAKER: I think I have indicated I will recognize the non. member for Eagle River next. HR. STRACl~~: A question for the ~linister of Transportation and Communications. It is a sort of two part question; the first

part is has the minister considered or reconsidered the decision to spend money on the Freedom Road especially the road to c:,urchill Falls , to Happy Valley - Goose Bay to give them access to Goose Bay? And could tne minister also, because it is important and tied into the whole transportation link, could the minister update us on any decisions which weremade,as recent as yesterday or whatever on the Robert Bond situation 1 by the federal goverPJment in ;;hich additional funds would be made available?

I understand the whole problem and the delay and the almost impossible situation of trying to convert the Bond into a ferry which will handle 200 passer.gers or more anci. I understand that the additional funds were to be made available because it will have to be done in a very short time.

April 14,1973 Tape ;>lo .. 1026 AH-3 NR. STRAC!:L\:~ : So it is a two part question, tue first one on the road and . .obviously, t!le other transportation link which is the ferry. HR. SPEAKER: Han. Minister of Transportation and Communicacions. ...... I I I .l

April 14, 1978 Tape 1027 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: Mr. Speaker, I guess the second part first, because it is the one that is the freshest in my memory. I had a meeting yesterday morning with the senior officials of CN Marine who visited with us here in the Province~ and one of the major topics of discussion was the Robert Bond. The situation is not a very satisfactory one from where we sit. The people with CN Marine appeared to have no certain knowledge as to whether or not to have the Bond in operation for the coming season. It appeared to be somewhat dubious.

They informed us that there would be a submission to Cabinet today, I think, Federal Cabinet, looking for increased funding for the conversion of the Bond to satisfy the conditions necessary for a reasonably efficient service,or satisfactory service to Goose Bay. They appeared to be somewhat less than optimistic about the prospects of (

a) getting the increased funding or (

b) even if that happened getting the necessary work done in time to make the ship available. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. DOODY: Mr. Rompkey says it will be ready in July. Well,Mr. Rompkey makes various statements, and I cannot really be, you know, responsible for anything that Mr. Rompkey might say. MR. NEARY: · Sit down, boy! MR. DOODY: Apparently Mr. Rompkey may know a great deal more about it than the people from CN Marine but that is unlikely. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

DOODY: The latest proposal that they were considering at that time,up to yesterday?was that the construction or the remodeling of the ship would be done in two stages and two shipyards, with the superstructure being built in one place and the modifications to the ship's design done in another shipyard,and bringing them with together at a later date and trying to put the whole piece into a semblance of order. But it sounded to me to be a crazy situation. SOME HON. MEMBFRS: Oh, oh!

April 14, 1978 Tape 1027 PK - 2 MR. DOODY: The hon. member does not want any more information on that, is that what you are saying? "1R. NEARY: What a ri~arole. MR. DOODY: Pardon? MR. NEARY: What a rigmarole. MR. DOODY: You have got enough on the Bond, have you? MR. NEARY: We got all we are going to get out of the hon. ministers. MR. DOODY: No,I was going to talk about alternate systems that might be available, but if members are not interested we can - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: No if the hon. member does not want information you know I will certainly - MR. MORGAN: Give the House information. MR.

DOODY: On the Freedom Road as it is so euphemistically called, if there are funds available this year, Sir, certainly we will try to do what is possible in that particular area. No decision has been reached in that regard as yet. MR.. SPEAKER: I think I had indicated the hon. gentleman for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir followed by the member for Burin-Placentia West, and then followed by the member for Fogo. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I have been wanting to ask the Minister of Forestry for a couple of days, but there did not seem to be the appropriate opportunity.

It is now two or three or four days since the precedent set in motion affecting his salary was passed in the House. I noted with interest that he has continued to answer questions as the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. My question, Mr. Speaker, is whether or not he intends to resign from his position in view of his having lost the confidence of the Rouse on the matter of salary? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: MR. SIMMONS: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. No, Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of resigning. A supplementary.

April 14, 1978 Tapa 1027 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the head which was reduced from $57,000 to $1 includes not only provision for the minister's salary. but certain other salaries as well, including that of his e.'tecutive assistant. }rr. Speaker, we know the technicalities, but: it would be a brazen affront to t:he House to attempt to reverse that decision. The will of the Rouse has bee.n expressed, and the government would be stunned not to recognize that will. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact:, that the h.ead does include provision for the salary of his executive assistant, has the minister at t.his point in time,since there is no salary provision for the e.xecutive assistant, now has he received the resignation or has he requested or has he advised his executive assistant to resign?

April 14, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES: MR. SIMMONS: MR. HICKMAN: PREMIER MOORES : Tape 1028 The hen. the Premier. I might say, Sir, in answer to that question - Mr. Speaker, I - Anyone can answer it from the government benches, - that the hen. minister is not only staying on as Minister of Forestry and Agriculture at $1 a year, but I have great pleasure in advising the House and the members that he is also the President of Treasury Board at full ministerial salary a year,which was passed last night. Thank you. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. RICKMAN: the Council MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES: MR. HICKMAN: MR.

SIMMONS: I told you not President of Treasury Board, President of A supplementary. President of the Council, Sir, I am sorry. Yes, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I - MR NEARY· It is illegal. What the Premier just announced is illegal. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir with a supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, certainly I would agree with the Premier that is a way around it, but it is certainly a backdoor approach and would fly in the face of the Committee's decision - SOMF. HON. ~FRS: Resien. MR. SIMMONS: -and I would not expect him to condone that.

I do have a supplementary for the Premier, Mr. Speaker, on the same subject. In view of the Committee's decision, I would like to know if the Premier would inform the House whether the government has issued any instructions to the Department of Finance concerning the payment of the salary of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture as a result of that decision on Tuesday? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer is, no, Mr. Speaker, that was not necessary because , obviously , the minister with two portfolios can be paid for any one of them.

April 14, 1978 Tape 1028 PK - 2 MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Premier knows the difference of that, it is not so. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary , and then the hon. gentleman for Burin-Placentia West. MR. NEARY: Are we going to have a row again today? I mean I am right in the mood for it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if I can get a word in edgewise over here.

The Premier may have answered the question I am going to put to him by suggesting that perhaps the minister can be paid out of another vote, but otherwise if that is not the case, ~ould the Premier indicate whether it is the government's intention to in some fashion,by way of a bill or otherwise, seek the approval of House for a higher salary than the Minister of Forestry, who as Minister of Forestryli understand,now is entitled to $1, and $1 only less deductions? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture obviously and has refused to accept his salary as Minister of Forestry and Agriculture because of the vote that did go through Committee. To set the record straight on the President of the Council,which was held by the Minister of Transportation and Communications and Public Works and Services, and last year by the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development, that salary has been paid to the President of the Council except when that person holds another portfolio.

When you have two portfolios_, the fact with the Minister of Transportation and Public Works and Services,he does not get paid from both departments,;f only gets paid from one, even though there is a vote in there for it. But the fact is, Sir, that has always been the method, that a minister holding two portfolios obviously only

April 14, 1978 Tape 102,8 PK - 3 PREMIER MOORES: gets paid the one salary. In this caseas Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and the President of the Council certainly he is in exactly the same position. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I had indicated I would recognize the hon. member for Burin-Placentia West next. MR.. CANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to direct to the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. AN HON. MEMBER: Ah, ha! Ah, ha! MR. CANNING: In order to expedite the House I lvill be putting A, B, and C into the question.

I do not have much time left after all the bickering in the last half hour. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CANNING: In referring - MR., MORGAN: Come over here with us? MR. CANNING: I am directing it to the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing if he can hear it. I am sure he is interested, and he wants to hear the question. un NOLAN· He would be better off in Salerno than over there. _'"=::."'· ...:.;.:=::.:..:..· - - MR. e&~ING: And despite the fact that the question does not pertain to something that he is responsible for, I am sure he will do his utmost to answer it.

Referring to the sum of approximately $2 million incurred with the extending of a water and sewerage system at Burin between 1973 and 1975, most of it was 1975 - would the minister indicate to the House_ this is my question (

A) if this loan has been amortized to date? (

B) If so, has the sum of $200,000 referred to as

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1029 NH - 1 overrun, lleen ci1arged to the municipality to the .debt of the municipality, or has it been absorbed by the Province? And (

c) Did DREE meet its commitment5, or did they hold back monies they originally agreed to extend to the tow~ of Burin? SOliE HON. 11E}JBERS : Oh, oh! NR. DL.'ffi: A point of order, Nr. Speaker. The hon. member is asking some questions and his colleagues are making so much noise I cannot hear the questions. }lR.. SPEAKER: I do not think I need to reserve judgement on the point of oraer gentlemen. HR. _CA.'WL'{G: The last part of that question again, Mr. Speaker, in case - I think I was drowned out a bit - was did Dree repay 7 you know the agreed sum, all of it,or did they hold back the whole of it or any part? HR.

SPEAKER: :·JR. FLIGHT: lJR. DINN: The hon. Hinister of aunicipal Affairs. The hon. minister, the first time yet. !1r. Speaker, in answer to the last part of the hon. member's question, he refers to a $2 million construction job on the water system in Burin Bay Arm, and ~here were about - :·lr. Speaker, I cannot get the answer because there are four people to my right, immediately to my right, talking and I just cannot get the answer at all. I want to get it. And it is very important, }JR. SPEAKER: ~on. gentlemen are asked to allow their colleague to hear the answer. t!R. DINN: Possibly, Er.

Speaker, the best thing to do is to table the answer for the hon. gentl~n. The fact of the matter is there "as about approximately $2 million on t01ree or fcur contracts on the water system in Burin, and it was financed - HR. CAJJ~lBG: :JR. DL.'<11: ::...'<.. C/ili:..li)lG : There · were five contracts. \vell several contracts. Seven?

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1029 ~11 - 2 ~1R. DINN: There was a $2 million water system extension in Burin that involved several contracts. And it involved the payment of the consultant firms, there were several consulting firms, several - and the fact of the matter is that the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion pays certain portions of the actual water and sewer system and also ten per cent of engineering and consultant work. Now we do not feel that that is enough and we have made some issues to DREE on that.

But up to the point in time when the contract was completed, the Department of Regio:1al and Economic E:~pansion agreed only to pay ten per cent. So this left approximately $300,000, I believe it was $311,000 for the information of the hon. member, that is still outstanding, that is still under negotiation, that has not been settled. So when that is settled we will be able to inform the hon. member further. But we do not agree with the Depa~tment of Regional and Economic Expansion in that we feel that ten per cent, you know, there should be a higher portion from them.

So there is an outstanding amount right now of $311,000, that has not been charged as yet to the municipality of Burin. It may have to be charged to ~urin. And when it is, of course 7 that will be made available to the hon. member. In answer to

section (

a) of his question, that involves,! would say,about five minutes of the Committee's time. Some of the information I do not have here right now ar:d ::: will be glad to provide it to the han. member either by tabling it in the iiouse or personally to him. ;-!R. SPt:AY-ER: tlR. Cl~'f.:l~lG: One supplementary. llr. Speaker, the minister in referring co DREE said that DP.EE pays ten per cent towar:is the cost of the engineering, and pays another part of that contract. Am I correct? And I understand they only paid the ten per cent and they refused to pay the other, to contribute t:lll the other policy or ''hatever you might refer to it as, ;..

April 14, 1978 Tape :;o. 102 9 NH - 3 l·IR. CA.,NI.NG; that they do pay so much towards the construction, plus the ten per cent of the engineering consultants. HR. DI :~N: Yes, ~lr. Speaker, tl".e outstandiug amount right now that we are talking

April 14, 1978 Tape 1030 DW - l HR. J. Dii'fl~: about ,I think that the hon. member is interested in,is about $311,000. DREE a~reed to oav 10 per cent towards the cost of consulting~verseein~he work,design and engineering and so on~ That is the part that is in dispute right now $311,000 and some odd dollars and cents. HR. CAN,HNG: They have not paid. They are refusing to pay it. MR. J. DINN: They have not paid that to this point in time , right • :fiL a...NNlifG: Can you tell me "hy? HR. J. DINN: Well, Nr. Speaker, it is a very long and involved process we are talking about here •.

They agreed to pay only 10 per cent of certain things in a contract for the particular water system in Burin, okay!' fhey agreed that they will pay 10 per cent of consulting work and we are disputing at this point in time that part they say they should be paying 10 per cent of.

The total amotmt of the dollars i~ 3ll,OLO for which the Province of the municipality will be responsible-He will be responsible for part of that,we do not feel we should be responsible for all of that.and that is what is in dispute.When that is settled then we will know how to handle our share and hopefully DP£E will handle their share. ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. E. wiN30R: ~:r. Speaker, I have a question for ti·,e hon. 1-linister of Forestry and Agriculture. The other day the minister was comnenting on the new regulation as it pertains to small cabins ~~d fishermen '!l cabins etc., etc.

The minister made a statement or he commented and said that temporary cabins and fishermen ' ,s cabins would not be induded.~ould the minister oe a little more explicit :'.n what he meant by temporary cabins? ~IR. SPEAKEP.: TI1e hen. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HR. E. ~LAYNARD: ~ r. Speaker, within a couple of days I can hopefully table in the House some precise

definitions to what the regulations will apply to-"Y regional directors are meeting now in Gander, they are discussing the issue to see how

April 14, 1978 Tape 1030 DH - 2 MR. YlAY:iARD: widespread the problem is and once I get a report from them hopefully I will be able to put some more precise definit±ons to the House of:-Assembly. CAPT. E. WINSOR'! HR. SPEAKER: CAPT. E. WL~SOR: A supplementary, ~:r. Speaker. A supplementa~y, the han. member for Fogo. \Vould the han. minister now confirm that no action will be taken until he has an opportunity to present that report to the House? !",],. MAYNARD: To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, there is no action being taken at the present time. ~ill.. SPEAKER: 1·1R. G.

FLIG!IT: The han. member for \Oindsor - ~uchans. ~!r. Speaker, my question is for the ~;inister of ~~ines and Energy but in his absence I will have to direct the question to the Premier) and it is ~~ith regards to the new Mining Taxation Act.! want to ask the minister,now that he is back in his seat,the

section of the Act that says that a mining company must pay the higher rate of taxation if they fail to explore, carry out explorations on concessions they hold, and presumably the purpose is to force exploration, what is the situation with regards to a company who holds ~ concession, discovers an ore body of a million tons deposit, that type thing, and then leaves that known deposit, does not put it into production, does not go into development 1 but le<ves it and sits there and they continue to hold rights uo ore body?

Doesthe higher taxation rate then apply to that company who sits on that known discovered ore body and refuses to bring it into production' Does the higher taxation rate that applies to concessional .loes it then apply to ti.at coryany? ~ffi.. SPEAKER: HR. PECKFORD: The han. !!inister of Hines and Energy. ~!r. Speaker, I am not sure if I understand the question. I am not sure if the question is in order so I am in a bit of trouble here. Nr. Speaker, the hon. member is referring to the bill now presently l:lefore the House The Hineral Impost Dill? YR. G. FLIGiiT: ~o .. T ::Jm nnr.

It Hc.s brought in last year t1~ The Hineral Taxation Act. Lee n,., rephrase the question.

April 14, 1978 Tape 1030 Di< - 3 ~' . :1R. PEC:<FO!ID: I do not tni.nk I can give the hon. member an ~er,a satisfactory answer today but l will unce rtake to ge t the inform ation fo r him on the whole question of a discovered ore body.

Chere ar!! all kinds of or e bodies being dis cove red arounc the Province .rhat does not mean that they are commercial so 1 thinr. that is the only point I coul d add there no1~ . because when the !too. member says a ciscovered ore body it sort of i~plies that ther e is a wealt h of mineral t here t hat could be developed if the company was not so stingy and •.;ent ai1ead and developed it and all tne rest of it . But that migh t no t necessar)ly be so because a ost of the ore bodies that are discovered and have :lOt oeen deve l oped is because they are not commercial and ec.onomieally viable. :-iR.

FL I GllT : ::R. SPU.'-ER: ~.R . F .. IGi:ii ~ rephras e t he ques cion. Assumin g A supple~entary. A supplementary . ~ow in a sup?lementary I will cry to

April 14,1978 Tape rio. 1031 AH-1 ::.IR. FLIGHT: that a mining company that holds concessions in this Province discovers through their exploration work and diamond drilling, determines that there is an ore body of one million tons of very high grade ore , they know it is there - it may not be very economical today to develop it but there may also be a situation where they can afford to sit on it for five years and wait until the market suits them and not the Province. Now what applies in that case?

Can a mining company walk away from a known deposit that is on their concessions and sit on it as long as they like and wait for an opportune time to develop it or does not the high taxation rate apply which would have the effect of forcing them either to develop or have it revert back to the Province? l!R. SPEAKER: The hon, minister. :m.. PECKFORD: There are two points here, Mr.

Speaker; one has to do with the kind of a concession ami agreement that that particular company has which therefore might be exempt from the new llineral Taxation Act, that is number one, which is quite likely, I would suggest, in the scenario that the hon. gentleman just gave.And in that ca.oe, assumin~ that to be so, thSlt thl" normal, T'l""' "fino;>!'~l T~:!l:~.ti('". &~t ~oes not I apply because it is in the concession area, and I understand that the .I hon. gentleman said it was a concession area, then the only way that government has to attack that kind of problem is through the llineral Impost Bill that is presently before the house, I shall review it further to insure that the answer I just gave is valid. :·m .• SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the hou. member for Conception Bay South.

MR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, :-ome days ago I asked the Premier a question related to this committee that he was going to set up to analyse the cost of staying into Confederation versus the cost of staying out. At the time that the Premier made tl1at statenent it was carried extensively by all the media in this Province and it was a Lig issue. I did not get the answer to the question because the Premier - because there was thumping on the other side &ld I could not hear wnat was

April 14, 1978 Tape ~o. 1031 AH-2 MR. LUSH: being said. Now that I have read the an~Ter in Hansard I do not know - it looks like the hou. members were no wiser than I was even though they were thumping. There was one change. the Premier said that the committee was not now to look into the cost of staying in versus the cost of getting out, he was setting up a committee to look into what we weze contributing to Canada. Well even though he ilas changed the purpose of the committee the question is is ti:J.is committee now set up? PRENIER l!OORES: Yes , Mr. Speaker. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker • .'IR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~IR. LUSH: Can the Premier indicate when this committee will be set up? PREIHER MOORES: Shortly, "ir. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. :1R. NEARY: Before we go into Orders of the Day, Sir, I want to raise a matter of tile breach of the ?rivilege of this hon. House involving a matter, Sir, that arose during ti1e Oral Question Period when the han. the Premier was responding to a question from this side of the House, .I The matter involves, }~. Speaker, the reduction of the salary of the 1-linister of Forestry and Agriculture, to one dollar.

The ;lon. the Premier stated-and Hansard can bear me out on this, Sir - the :1on. the Premier stated that the ~!inister of Foz:estry and Agriculture was now President of the Council and that in this capacity the minister would receive his full salary. In other words,he would receive what he would have received as Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture and the Premier confirms that, Sir.

Now let me draw to Your Honour's attention _, that tnis is illegal and unconstitutional because only last night, Your Honour, we passed the vote for executive council which is the Premier's own department and in that vote, Sir, we passed the large amount ' '

April 14, 1973 Tape :-lo. lv31 AH- 3 HR. NEARY: of $100 for President of the Council , i t is in the departmental salary details 1978 - 1979. Now, ~r . Speaker , ii the hon. the Premier wanted to ao through t~e back door what he could not do throu&h the front door, reinstate the minister 1 s salary, then the hon . gentleman could have moved an amend;nent last night t o increase this salary to t;natever the t;~i.nister 1 s salary was in his :.>epart:nent oi ForE<:.try and Agriculture.

The ?remer did not do that,Sir , and I would suborl.t to Your Uonour that that is a breach of t:te privilege of this Uouse , that it flies in the face .)f a decision , tloiO d .. cisions actually , that ~ere cade in this hon . House and I believe , Sir , tha t tne fac ts speak for themselves , I do not think I have to contir.ue any further~that there is a pr~a facie case for t:le Premier violating the instructiocs that have been &iven to the Finance i)eparcment,

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1032 NH- 1 !!R. NEARY: to the governoent from this House, and that the President of the Council, if that is what the han. Premier wants to do, make the han. gentleman President of the Council, he would be entitled to $100. Now, Sir, there is my case and if Your Honour needs a motion to discipline the Premier for this illegal action, or appearance of illegal actions, Sir, I will be quite yrepared to move the motion. HR. SPEAKER: l!R.. HIC.K.'1AN: The han. ainister of Justice. l·lr. Speaker, number one, this is not a point of privilege or a question of privilege.

I am surprised at the han. gentleman. ae is one of the senior members of thi;; House and he knows so well that the procedure that is being followed today by the han. the Premier- it is his prerogative in appointing any han. member of this Ilouse to any portfolio in Cabinet- is quite correct and quite in order and quite constitutional and quite within the traditions of tne douse. The first President of the Council was }!r. Leslie R. Curtis, and if han. gentlemen •;ill check the records there was a token vote of $1.00 for salary for Hr. Curtis and he served at full salary as President of the Council.

The han. the Hinister of Industrial Development, now Hinister of Industrial Development, served as a fully ,aid President of the Council. And again, :Ir. Speaker, if one 'dll check the salary details, which are not part of the estimates but ~~planatory only as han. gentlemen ,;ill realize - "=hat is right, the red book- which is something that as I recall <-Jas brought in two or three years ago as an aid to hon. members rather tha~ have the lengthy debates and questions we used to ;1ave on everybody's particular salaries an.i particular categories. And therefore, Hr.

Speaker, as Your Honour 1vell >cnows, and why I say and I realize that one is not permitted to debate a point of privilege as one could debate other points, but as Your llonours knows, that it is perfectly

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1032 NM - 2 HR. RICKJ.1AN: constitutional, and within the prerogatives of the Premier, to today invite the hen. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture to assume the portfolio of President of the Council. this $100 vote, tlR. :nARY: !lR.. HICKl!k'l: Some hon. gentlemen may be confused by (Inaudible). A $100 vote is a token vote which enabl~s the Legislative Council, at the instruction of the Premier HR. NEARY: No, it means $100.

But I realize I am getting into debate now on a point of privilege which is precluded ;;.nd hon. gentlemen know that what I am saying is quite correct, absolutely correct. ::inisters do not get paid for two portfolios. :!R. iiEARY : ~~o. No. I hold the portfolios of Finance and Justir.e. I do uot get paid as Hinister of Justice but there is a vote for the ~linister of Justice's salary. tlR.. NEARY: There is a vote, yes, but it is not $100. In this case it is $100. And that is illegal, what •,;as done today. l·lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think that I can come to a decision on this matter.

The point is quite clear. Now the Co=ittee passed last night and reported to the House the passing ~f heading of expenditure under III -Executive Council. And among the subheads there was one Executive Council Office Cabinet Secretariate 303, and under that 303-Cl, salaries. The disposition of money voted by the Legislature, this is the amount of money voted by the Legislature, the disposition of it, as I ~~derstand it, comes within the ambit af The Finance Administration Act, not the rules or ;,Jrocedures of the 1louse, it is the Finance Administration Act.

If money that is voted ·is improperly spent, then it is not for the Speaker of the House to make any decision on that and indeed it 1~ould be quite outside not only his jurisdiction but his competence. Sa in my opinion the [(eading was

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1032 HR. SPEAKEB.; voted, the amounts were voted there and now the government obviously is antitled to spend them. And the surveillance of their spending of that amount is NH - 3 not my responsibility, it is the Auditor General's responsibility SO~·IE i!ON. llENBERS ; Hear, hear!

April 14, 1978 Tape 1033 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir on a point of privilege. MR. SIMMONS: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter affecting the privileges of the House. ~y point of privilege,though quite different from the one raised by my colleague a moment ago, different in substance, I would submit, relates to the same set of issues, so I shall save the time of the House by not - MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible) MR. SIMHONS: I point out to Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Justice may not take my word for it. If he will have the patience to wait about two minutes I think he will see that I am raising quite a different matter than has just been dealt with by Mr. Speaker. It seems to be different and I will let Mr. Speaker decide the issue, all right? Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday, the Committee, as we are aware, voted that the salary of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture be reduced to one dollar. It is clear that in so doing the Committee expressed its will that the present holder of that position should have his salary reduced to one dollar.

If the Committee wanted to reverse itself on that matter, of course, it must have the opportunity to do so. Last night the Premier made reference to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture as the President of Treasury Board - introduced him as such and that gentleman subsequently stood and spoke to the

April 14, 1978 Tape 1033 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: estimates in that capacity as President of Treasury Board at about 10:15 P.M. last night, Mr. Speaker. We now learn this morning that he is the new President of Council and I am the first to agree that that is well within the prerogatives of the Premier to make a change at any particular time in his Cabinet assignments. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the announcement of the change in portfolios was made at about 10:00 A.M. this morning, fewer than twelve hours after the minister stood and discharged his obligations in his other capacity as President of Treasury Board, I submit that unless there is some ongoing crisis that we are not aware of that the Premier had the knowledge last night when he addressed the House to get his estimates through - he knew last night that he would today make the change in portfolios. Mr.

Speaker, the Committee last night voted Supply for Executive Council with the specific knowledge that,one, the President of Council was at that time the Minister of Transportation,with the knowledge that the President of the Treasury Board was the Minister of Forestry and with the knowledge that in the estimates~ while there was a token vote for the President of Council, which I understand by various procedures can be increased, but with the knowledge that there was no vote, not one single dollar for President of Treasury Board. And I, particularly, Mr.

Speaker, for one, checked that item last night and if there was anything more than one dollar there, it was my full intention to move a reduction. Mr. Speaker, to my point of privilege, I submit that the Premier last night, in failing to inform the House of the proposed change in portfolios

April 14, 1978 Tape 1033 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: this morning, got his estimates through the Committee under false pretences and in the process, Mr. Speaker, misled the House. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: I submit that that is a breach of the privileges of the House. I submit I have established a prima facie case and am prepared to move the appropriate motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Before I hear the hon. gentleman to my left,and before giving a decision on the point of privilege, I have to ask the han. gentleman from Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir to retract the allegation that the Premier got the estimates through under false pretences and misled the House. I would have to ask for a withdrawal of that. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, before doing so I would need the advice of the Chair. I understood - and I may be wrong on this, and I am not debating with Mr.

Speaker at all - I understood that that was the essence of my point of privilege and to withdraw that, I understand I would have no point of privilege. I am alleging that the Premier has - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw: HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. S !~MONS: that is the basis of my allegation, that there was a misleading of the Rouse, and I feel I have established a prima facie case on that basis, but if there is a parliamentary technicality, I am prepared to withdraw it but not to withdraw the point of privilege, if I make myself clear.

April 14, 1978 Tape 1033 EC - 4 MR. SPEAKER: I see the bon. gentleman's distinction. I feel he should withdraw the terms, but I am aware of his point of privilege. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speake r , I would be most happy to withdraw the te r minology Qsed with the understanding that I am doing so because it is unpaTliamentary, but with the understanding tha t I am in no way withdrawing the substance of the point which ~ have raised in my point of privilege.

April 14, 1978 Tape 1034 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: On the point of privilege,! feel that it is not the Chair's juridiction to determine when a premier will make any Cabinet changes, or to require that he inform the House at any particular time. So certainly there is no breach of privilege in any internal Cabinet changes or reallocation of portfolios. And the Committee last night passed those estimates and voted them and if since those estimates were passed there have been changes in the Cabinet or reassignment of portfolios,it does not, in my opinion, constitute a matter of privilege.

It is an internal matter wnicn the House would not have any control over. And the votes were passed for specific categories, and who the minister is going to be, who was in that category next week or last week or one day before or one day after~is 9 I think~ outside of the Chair's jurisdiction. So I will say that there is not a matter of privilege. HR. l'l'EARY: (Inaudible) on tne Auditor l>eneral, Nr. Speaker. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole , Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Order, please! Mr.

Chairman, on a point of privilege. A point of privilege has come up. Mr. Chairman, last night in Committee of the Whole we voted $100 for the office of President of the Council, and I would like Your Honour to instruct the Auditor General - Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: -hold on now, just a second now- $100, and as the han. gentleman is the servant of this House,! would like for Your Honour to instruct the Auditor General that the Premier and the government have contravened the Financial Administration Act of this Province,and advise the Auditor General to take appropriate action against the Premier and the government for doing so. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

April 14, 1978 Tape 1034 PK - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. HICKMAN: The matter,as Your Honour knows,has already been dealt with by the Rouse, and it would be an insult to the Auditor General to assume that the man is not sufficiently familiar with the Administration Act, and so fiercely loyal to this House that if there was any breach of that Act that he would not move forthwith. And to say that a Committee would have to instruct him would insult him and make his House quite untenable from here on in.

But a part from all of that it is not a point of privilege, and the issue has been dealt with by the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Hang on, hang on by your fingernails. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The Committee is constituted as the Committee of Suooly,which has fairly well defined and relatively narrow duties and, as was mentioned at one of our recent sittings,certain matters can be brought up to the Committee but these are quite clear cut, and they do not extend 1 to my knowledge,to instructing officers of the House,but that they do refer to matters that will come up under supply in a very specific way. So I feel that it would be outside my duties as Chairman of the Committee to entertain any instruction such as was mentioned in the possible point of privilege.

I cannot recognize therefore that I have the authority to deal with this as a point of privilege. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, 9h; Order, please!

April 14, 1978 HR.. CHAIPJ,JAN : SOMI. HON. MEMBERS : !·!R. W. CARTER: Tape "o. 1035 Fishe~ies, page 91. Shall 1401-01 carry? The hon. }1inister of Fisheries. Hear, hear! Hr. Chairman, I am pleased to have this l\'H- 1 chance to present the estimates for our department, for 1978-79, and maybe in so doing, Hr. Chairman, give a brief review of what happened in 1977, and give some idea as to what we hope to see happen in 1978 and the years thereon. 1977, Hr. Chairman, was an exceptionally good year in the fishing industry.

In fact,in the past two years, since 1975, fish landings in the Province have increased by more thaa fifty per cent. The landed value of fish into the Province is up by eighty-seven per cent, from $48 million in 1975, to $85 million in 1977. The export value of fish landed in the Province has increased in the past ~wo years by eighty per cent. It has gone from $140 million in 1975, to $250 million in 1977. Landings in 1975 were at least 563 million pounds. In 1977 the total landings were 856 million pounds.

So there have been substantial, very dramatic, increases in the fishing industry in the Province in the past couple of years. Between 1975 and 1977, two years, there has been an increase of 2,900 people, 2,900 man years of employment in the fishing industry. That is in the processing sector. Employment in the harvesting sector, actual fishermen.in these two years has increased form 16,000 to 19,000 with a 3,000 people increase in tne harvesting sector of the industry. 1978, Hr. Chairman, I predict will be an extremely good year in fisheries. I believe it will exceed the catches, and the

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1035 ~·! - 2 }!R. l-1. CARTER: landed value and the export value and the employment factor that endured in 1977. r mi~ht point out that in 1978 there will oe an increase of approxiQately fifty per cent in the number of cod trap s that •Jill be operating around our Coast . 1 ac told that cod traps operated by our inshore fisbe!illen represent approximatel y twenty per c~nt of the actual landings in the Province. So I think Mr . Chaircan ~ill appreciate the increase the number of cod traps ~•ill have on the actual landings in the Province in 1978. ~. H. COLL~S: :.-:R. W.

CARTER: (Ina udible). Yes ,and I should point out ,::oo, :·tr. c:,air~n, tha t there have been a substantial increase in t he number of fishermen in 1978 over and above that of 1977. Large numbers of people, wostly young people, are now getting involved in ~~e fishing industry and are prepared to make it their career . And I think proof of that can be given by virtue of the . ac tivit;.• of the Fisheries Loan Soard in 1977. And of course the Fisheries Loan 3oard, as :·lr.

Chairman and hon. ::~ecbers of the Committee realize, is playin g a very im?Ortant ?art,providing financial assistance to fishermen and to new entrants into ~,e fishing industry by •;.ay of lo~ interest loans, three and a half per cent loans, bounties on boats, new boats, and of course assistance to convert and to

April 14, 1978 Tape 1036 EC - 1 MR. W. CARTER: boats, new boats, and of course, assistance to convert and to rehabilitate and to modernize older boats. In 1977, Mr. Chairman, there was a 31 per cent increase in the number of applications received by the board~ 31 per cent in 1977 over and above the number of applications received in 1976• and a 66 per cent increase in the value of loans granted.

In 1977 the Fisheries Loan Board approved 825 applications for loans, for a total value of $9.5 million as opposed to the 1976 - 1977 fiscal year when the board approved 531 loan applications for a total value of $6.4 million. HR. F. ROlvE: MR. W. CARTER: What percentage is federal money? All provincial. The hon. member asked what percentage of that money is federal. I should point out to the Committee that is all provincial dollars - AN RON. MEMBER: MR. lL CARTER: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. W. CARTER: Hear, hear! - every single cent. Hear, hear! I repeat, Mr.

Speaker, in 1976 we received 531 applications - at least, we approved 531 with a total value of $6.4 million. In 1977, the year just past, we approved 825 loan applications for a total value of $9.5 million provincial dollars. This represents, Mr. Chairman, a 55 per cent increase in the number of loans approved and availed of by fishermen, and a 48.5 per cent increase in the value of loans approved. These figures, Mr. Chairman, I believe speak for themselves in that a large number of people are now getting involved in the fishing industry.

April 14, 1978 Tape 1036 IB-2 MR. W. CARTER: It is interesting to note as well, Mr. Speaker, the decrease in the average age of our fishermen. For example,on the basis of the applications received from people in the Province, one of the questions of course on the application forms has to do with the age of the applicant. The average age of our fishermen, of our applicants for fisheries loans,has decreased from forty­ four years of ago four years ago to about thirty-five years of age now.

In other words,a decrease of almost ten years in the average age of our fishermen, or at least people applying for assistance in the past four years. I will have more to say on the Fisheries Loan Board, Mr. Chairman, as the debate progresses. I should like to maybe make a few projections for the next few years in fisheries. We predict, Mr. Chairman, that by 1982 fish landings in the Province will be roughly one and a quarter billion pounds as opposed to the present harvest of 856 million pounds, an increase from,like I said, 856 million pounds to one and a quarter billion pounds in the next five years.

We are projecting that the landed value of fish into the Province over the next five years,during that same period,will go from $85 million,as it is today,to $130 million in 1982. We are projecting that the export value of fish landed in the Province by 1982 will go from a present amount of $250 million to an amount then of $432 million,which is a substantial increase. We are projecting as well that the utilization of our fish processing capability will increase from a present percentage of about 35 per cent- or at least 35 per cent of it now presently utilized. that by 1982 that will be 75 per cent.

We are projecting In other wordsJ the utilization of our fish processing capability in the Province

April 14, 1978 Tape 1037 Pk ~ 1 Mr. W. Carter: will rise from its present 35 per cent to, we believe by 1982 , 75 per cent. And that,of course, will have very beneficial effects on the employment picture in the Province. We are projecting that by 1982,five years,the offshore fleet will increse from eighty~five vessels, eighty~five vessels today made up of twenty~five side trawlers with an average age of about fifteen years, about sixty stern trawlers with an average age of nine years, totalling eighty-five ships to date, fishing out of various ports in our Province.

We are projecting that by 1985 that amount will increase to one hundred vessels, that number will increase to one hundred vessels, that is in the offshore sector. We are projecting as well that by 1985 in the inshore sector the number of vessels operating will go from 700 to a minimum of 850 new vessels - well not new, but certainly a lot of them will be new and modernized one way or another. We are projecting, Mr. Chairman, as well that by 1982,five years hence,employment in the processing sector will increase from 8,500 people to 11,000, from 8,500 now to 11,000 in 1982. So, Mr.

Chairman, I think it is obvious now to han. members and to most people in the Province that,with great respect to other segments of our economy, their importance, I believe, that it is now being realized by most people that the fishing industry does in fact hold one of the big hopes for the future social and economic development of our Province. In the estimates that are now being discussed, Mr. Chairman, before the Committee, one will see that there has been a substantial increase in the past couple of years. For example, in 1976-1977 the total expenditure, the gross expenditure was then $15,750,000.

The revised estimates in 1977-1978 were in the order of $22,810,000, a substantial increase over the previous year. And in 1978-1979 the gross expenditure under all headings in the Department of Fisheries will be $25,195,700.

April 14, 1978 Tape 1037 PK - 2 We agree , but the faots speak for themselves . MR. W. CARTER: .. Wel~ the hon. member says, le agree, but the facts speak for themselves !' I do not know what be is quoting from there, but certainly the revised 1977-1978 estimates are $22,810,000, and that in 1976-1977 they were $15 ,750,600 . Subtantial increases, Mr. Chairman, however you look at it. This year we are going to be spending a considerable amount of money on research and development; in fact, $625 ,000 will be spent by the department on that aspect of our operation, with $250,000 going cowards vessel development.

We are now undertaking, or at least we have undertaken a five year multipurpose boatbuilding programme. The first twenty of these boats are now nearing completion. They are in the fifty -five to sixty-five foot class, plus fifty-five and SL~cy-five foot class . These boats will be sold to fishermen on the basis of various guidelines that will be established by the Fisheries Loan Boar d working with other people in the industry , and hopefully will be in set'rice, if not the latter part of this year, certainly ne.'<t year.

But that is only the first phase of a five year programme during which time we intend co construct one hundred new boats, costing ,we estimate,around $30 million to S40 million . But I say to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, that it is

April 14, 1978 Tape No. 1038 J}l - 1 HR. (v. CARTER: $30 million or $40 million well spent 1 and I think one would have to agree that the $4 million or $5 million that will be spent in 1977-1978 and 1978-1979 will produce some short-term as well as some very beneficial long-term benefits to the province and to our fishermen. \i'e are not satisfied, Hr. Chairman, that the boats are ideal, are without fault. We are not being sensitive to the criticism that has been leveled at the department by certain people with respect to the design of these boats. I suppose it would be impossible, i'!r.

Chairman, to design a boat that will meet all of the requirements of all of our fishermen 1but certainly I think the Fisheries Loan Board and the Research and Development 3ranch of our department have in the past come up with what I believe can be in all fairness called a resonably weLL designed boat, a boat that does have multi-purpose application. Sut we are not satisfied. He .s.re not prepared to rest on our oars,as it were,to pretend that these boats are ideal or have all the answers.

And for that reason we are 1 now undertaking a programme of getting out a=ngst the fishermen and I getting their views on the boats, the criticisms if they have any, .I working with various people, naval architects~and coming up with a boat design that I believe probably will be more adaptable or more functional for the fishermen. So the next generation of boats that we build will be of a new design and I hope may be of a more practical and a more functional design than those in the past. This is not, llr.

Chairman, to reflect on the design of the older fleet because one must realize that the fishing industry is changing. ilew technolo;:;y is CJeing introduced. Ne~1 species of fish are being sought by fishe=eu. :;ew methods are being adopted, new ideas and for that reason of course the design of our boats as in fact the design of our traps and other instruments used to harvest the fish must be under constant review and must keep up-to-date with the changes in the technology 1 as I have mentioned.

But certainly the next generation of boats that ••e build u:.1.der that programe we hope 'Oill be a more functional boat and certainly more adaptable to the needs of the people

April 14, 1978 Tape "o. 1038 J11 - 2 MR. W. CARTER: who will be buying them and using them. During the past year we undertook the design and development of a sixty-five foot steel vessel because we believe that eventually •~e ~orill have to get involved in the building of maybe steel, aluminum and maybe fiberglass,but the trend nmv appears to be away from building wooden vessels and getting into steel or a material that is Qore durable.

Of course there are many advantages that would be passed on to the fishermen if and when we can develop as economically as possible the construction of a steel or an aluminum or maybe a fiberglass boat because that of course would mean that the life of the boat would be extended and the amortization period required to pay off the mortgage could be extended likewise.Where now the Fisheries Loan Board will give an eleven year mortgage on a boat bearing in mind that the life span of that boat is probably not much greater than fifteen years,and with a boat that would have a longer life span,as in fact a steel boat would,then it stands to reason that the amortization period could be extended and thereby lessening the annual burden on the fishermen, ~e are also involved in designing tow-off skiffs, we call them,for people who are in the herring fishing business and we are hoping this year to get involved in building in conjunction witl• the fishermen some of these boats.

Hr. Chairman, my time is just about up.I believe I have another minute t;o go but there are some very exciting things happening in the fishing inc!ustry, extremely exciting. :1r. Chair.nan, I i1ave noticed in the past that the fishermen are noo;..- displaying an entirely new and a much healthier and a more vibrant attitude towards their profession and that of course is quite a change from the days gone by when to go fishing was al~ost a job of last resort. Only the people who could not get a job onshore or who could not get an education ended up fishing. That, Nr.

Chairman, has changed. :~ow we are getting I believe some of our top young men, the cream of our young people are now looking to t;1e

April 14,1978 Tape No. 1039 MI-l NR.I~.CARTER: fisheries as a career. And I would ask the coramittee, Hr. Chairman,I realize that sometimes tempers flare and we say things in the heat of argument that we do not want to say 1 or have no intention maybe under normal conditions of saying,but let us not do anything during this seven hour debate that will have the effect of destroying the fishermen's confidence in the fishing industry and I hope in some of the things that their Department of Fisheries is trying to do for them.

Nothing can be gained by ballyragging each other, by getting the debate out on a very low level as in fact some of b1e debates have gone in the past during t:1e past session. I am quite prepared to explain to the best of my ability, :·lr. Chairman, our programme for 1978-1979, where we hope to go in the years <Llead,arid quite willing ~in fact, anxious to answer any questions that the han. members opposite will want to put to tle.

But certainly I hope that this seven hou~s, and I am looking forward to it very much, will not be wasted by meaningless points of ?rivilege or people who for one reason or anotner appear to be ~ore interested in obstructing, delaying the House than in getting the information that I think the House so richly deserves. Thank you . very much . SO:·IE EON. ::IIilillERS : :·IR.. CHAI~1&'i: Y..R. F.

RO._'E: Hear, hear! lion. member for Trinity-Bay d'Yerde. 1lr, Chairman, I agree entirely with the :!inister of Fisheries that the last couple of years in the area of the fisheries have been two very good years and I would expect that thL; year and the following year and the following after that 'dll continue to be very sood years in the fisheries. We will have increased landed value, export value, man years in the processing sector and man years in the harvesting sector, and we 'Jill have increased nwnber of fishermen and increased number of cod traps and what have you.

Sir, I would give the han. minister and his department some credit for that,but we have to also realize that the institution of the 200 ~ile limit by t he federal government and the conservation measures

b.pril 14,1978 Tape lio. 1039 AH-2 i·!R. F. ROWE: instituted by the federal government nave gone a long, long way to helping the fishermen of this Province. And I notice tiJ.at the Minister of Fisheries when he was speaking, Hr.

Chairman, was saying "we" quite often and I would like to ·go on record as-I would assume that when he was saying "we" he was not just referring to "we" in his administration but "we" in te=s of the federal and the provincial government,because I will indicate through committee that the federal government have indeed made a significaut contribution towards the increase of the value of the fishing industry to this Province over the last couple of years and will continue to do so. I might add, Sir, as well that there is a very healthy climate on the part of our young people now towards tne fisheries.

There are good dollars in it, people are beginning to realize that it is a reasonable and very good and honoured profession in this Province and people w'Orking in the boats and on the shore can feel proud that they are a part of this great fishing industry in Province.

But I would like to point out to the minister as well, Sir, that this is not the only reason why people are going to tl~ fishing industry, I have mentioned a couple; you know,the stock is being replenished, we have more protection with the 200 mile lioit, people are being educated about the significance and the importance of the fishing industry in our Province. But we do have a tremendously high unemployment rate in this Province, Sir, and people, ·-·ccntrary to what the minister says,are going back to the fisheries for that reason. fu."i HON ::IEMr.ER: That is right. :<!R.

F. l\.0'.-JE: It is a shame that that is the stated reason but it is a fact of life and I wo