Manitoba Hansard — 28 May 2021 (Sitting 70C, 42nd Legislature, 3rd Session)

42-3-70c

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXV No. 70C - 10 a.m., Friday, May 28, 2021 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ADAMS, Danielle Thompson NDP ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon. Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon. Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg, Hon. Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott Assiniboia PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib.

LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Turtle Mountain PC REYES, Jon Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron, Hon.

Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon. Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC

3615 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 28, 2021 The House met at 10 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS (Continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ROOM 254 ENABLING APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chairperson (Dennis Smook): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. Before we begin, I have a leave request for this

section of Committee of Supply. Our long- standing practice is for the opposition to sit at the committee table to the right hand of the Chairperson. Because the minister is participating virtually this morning, I am asking if there is leave of the committee to waive this practice. This would make it much easier for the mem- bers of the opposition to see the screens that are situated in the room. Is there leave? [Agreed] This

section of Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the department of Enabling Appropriations. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Scott Fielding (Minister of Finance): Just a brief opening statement. It's an honour to be part of presenting a budget. Obviously, it's a very crucial time in the Manitoba –not just Manitoba economy, but probably over the last, I'll say, century, in terms of protecting Manitobans and also providing supports that are in place in this critical and historic time with everything that's going on with COVID-19.

And so we're here to talk a little bit about the enabling appropriations. And so we're very proud of the fact that our plan really is to protect Manitobans and advance Manitoba in so many different ways. We are prepared and ready to address any additional waves, as we're obviously deep into the third wave. And so we're hopeful that with the vaccine program that's in place that we won't go into a fourth wave, but this budget really protects Manitobans–or our COVID plan really protects Manitobans in health, education and supports for individuals as well as businesses.

And we will really do what it take s to protect Manitobans to this point. We want to make sure Manitobans are supported not just on a protecting–on a health basis but also supported in so many different ways from businesses and supports. We've stockpiled PPE, vaccine; testing sites are up and running, ob- viously, and more are coming online as –I believe there's upwards of nine right now and other site, and– but clearly, we're not out of the woods yet with COVID-19. And what this budget does, the enabling appro- priations, it makes sure that we're ready and prepared.

We're spending more on COVID -19 supports, more than most other provinces, in terms of Ontario and Alberta and Saskatchewan, on a per capita basis from the provinces that we've recently tabled. And so we do think this is a good plan going forward. And with that, Mr. Chair, I'll wait for comments and any questions from committee members. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the critic for the –from the official oppo- sition have an opening statement? An Honourable Member: No, we do not. Mr.

Chairperson: Before I open the floor for ques - tions, I'd like to inform the minister and the critic that when you have one minute of speaking time remain - ing, I will hold this sign up for 10 seconds so that you know that you have a minute left. The floor is now – [interjection] Sorry. Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologic- ally or have a global discussion? The member for Fort Garry, could you turn–you seem to be muted because we can't hear you. Is your– Mr. Mark Wasyliw (Fort Garry): Yes, global, please. Mr. Chairperson: Global? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr.

Chairperson: Thank you.

3616 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 It is agreed that questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner with all resolutions to be passed once questioning is concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Wasyliw: I'm wondering if the minister can sort of direct his attention to page 152 of the Estimates of Expenditure book. What I'm hoping to do with t he Enabling Appropriations

section is basically to go systematically, line by line, through the Estimates. And so I'd like to start at page 152, part A, Operating, 26.1, Enabling Vote. I'm wondering if the minister can just expand: What's the purpose of this line item and what's being included in it? Mr. Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Finance, if you could raise your hand when you're ready. Mr. Fielding: One second, sorry. My hand signals aren't as good as they should be, so just conveying that I will indicate when I'm ready to speak, if that's okay with you, Mr. Chair? Mr. Chairperson: Yes, thank you.

The honourable Minister of Finance, did you raise your hand that you wish the floor now? Mr. Fielding: Can you not hear me? Mr. Chairperson: No, s orry, we didn't. Like, you have to give me your hand signal so that I could recognize you so that we could hear you. Mr. Fielding: Okay, can you hear me now, Mr. Chair? Mr. Chairperson: Yes, you're coming in clear. Thank you. Mr. Fielding: All right, okay, good. Thank you very much. I'll raise my hand from now on. It's like school. Anyways, 26.1, Enabling Vote.

So, funding is allocated from the enabling vote to the department program appropriation where the costs are incurred, actual expenditures are not typically reflected under the appropriation. So obviously there's $100,000 for Canada - Manitoba Framework Agreement on Treaty Land Entitlements, other expenditures. This obviously is delivered through Indigenous and Northern Relations.

It represents the activities related to negotiations, co- ordination and implemen- tation of treaty land entitlement agreements and other settlement agreements, expenditures related to admin- istration and co-ordination of TLE memorandum who –of understanding and compensation to municipalities for tax losses. Over the past few years, the department has been able to accommodate these expenditures from within existing resources and has not sought an allocation from enabling vote. However, the amount continues to be budgeted so it is available for the department to acquire.

So this is something –kind of an ongoing some - thing that's been in the budget for a number of years, and they have incorporated that in in their line depart- ments for the future. So that's the first item. Mr. Chairperson: The member for Fort Garry? Could the member from Fort Garry please turn his mic–like, I can't hear you if–are you muted right now? * (10:10) Mr. Wasyliw: Yes, I believe the moderator is muting me. Given that we're in committee and I'm going to be speaking quite regularly, perhaps the moderator could govern themselves accordingly.

That's going to be rather awkward if I have to constantly unmute. My question to the minister is under item (

b) International Development Program, Grant Assistance. I'm wondering if he can explain what is that pro- gram and what is the $1.2 million going to, what type of grants are being given there and to whom. Mr. Fiel ding: So, the International Development Program, allocated $1.2 million So this has been kind of in the budget, I think, most years. I don't think the number has changed. So, since 1975, the government of Manitoba has provided an annual grant to the Manitoba Council for International Cooperation, known as the Manitoba Government Matching Grants Program.

MCIC, which is the acronym used, is the funding to leverage grants from other levels of government in international aid organizations to support a vari ety of international development projects worldwide, Mr. Chair. The MCIC is a coalition of 39 member organiz - ations involved in international development and relief work. MCIC is a co -ordinating body for the

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3617 Manitoba-based organizations active in interna tional development, peace and social justice. MCIC pro - motes public awareness of international issues, fosters members' interactions, and administers funds for international development. The grants are distributed by the MCIC through four funds: the De velopment Fund, which makes up about 80 per cent; the Theme Fund, which is about 4 per cent; the Community Solidarity Fund, 6 per cent; and the –sorry–Relief and Rehabilitation Fund, 10 per cent.

Grants address a wide range of issues, such as education, literacy, job creation, agriculture, environ- ment, microenterprise, business development and health. Projects are delivered by the Manitoba organ- izations and their partners abroad. Mr. Wasyliw: The next heading there is Immigration Projects, Grant Assist ance, and there's been a sig - nificant reduction, almost 45 per cent, in that heading. So I'm wondering if the minister can explain: What is that immigration project? Why would it be under this heading? And why has it been cut almost in half from the previous year? Mr.

Fielding: So, the next item is the international immigration projects, the authority to notionally allocate the immigration -related projects in the departments of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration, Economic Development and Jobs. So the member asked about, I guess, the dif - ference in the budgeting. So there's a 3.936 year-over- year decrease in the amount allocated, and it's due to a $3 -million grant to settlement services, which are now being funded through the federal labour force agreements. So it's funded. Same amount of money is going, it's just funded through the labour force agreements. Mr.

Wasyliw: If we could turn now to 26.2, Internal Service Adjustments, again, we have a very large line item, that (a) $1,180,000 of COVID response expend- itures, and I'm wondering if the minister could spend some time to provide some more detail there and break down the allocations of those numbers. Mr. Fielding: So the numbers are breaking down. Yes, there's absolutely a big increase in this area. So, this is related to COVID expenditures for the most part, and some other moving pieces here, but it's for $1.1 billion. And so this is something we an- nounced just before the budget.

Really, it's made up of a number of different sectors. First, around $230 million for COVID kind of response. These are kind of carry-over items, I guess, if you will: commitments we've made, health system costs. So that's about $350 million. What we wanted to make sure, at least that time, we had fully prepared for a third wave and potentially a fourth wave. And so this is costs that may be associated through COVID types of relief that's in place or health costs systems– to the system. We also have additional PPE, vaccine sites, for $100 million. So this pays for, again, like, the vaccine site rollouts.

We, of course –the federal government's paying for all the vaccines, of course, but there's a number of costs. For the most part, we've front-ended a lot of these, like, the costs, maybe, for the super - centre at the Convention Centre and other areas like that, so we've entered a number of leased agreements. Staffing, I think, you know, makes up a good portion of this; I think somewhere up to–under $40 million of this for staffing, but, as you can see, with a $1 00-million budget, there's a lot of money that's available for that.

We also identified $160 million for K through 12 for safe restart funding agreements for $160 million. This is a safe restart capital for about $40 million. So that's part of the plan t o get the economy moving again. And we also put $300 million in contingency – thank goodness we did, as we're going through the third wave.

And so, of course, we've had to allocate some monies from these types of areas for things like extension of the Bridge Grant program–tune of around $71 million; a sick leave program which could be upwards of $60 million and some other smaller pro - grams for restaurants and others that we'd –part of it. It's also made up of kind of 'surgeral' –surgical pro - cedure backlogs for about $50 million. So that makes up the bulk of the money for this particular area. Mr. Wasyliw: So, the $230 million for COVID re - sponse, you indicated that was from prior com mit- ments, and now it's before the budget.

Has that money all been spent? Mr. Fielding: So, this is a carry -over of items for COVID that we made, expenditures –made the com - mitments to. The 230 is made up of things like test sites, leases, right. So, we've got leases at the Convention Centre

3618 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 and Brandon Keystone Centre, places like Leila, the soccer complex–I'm not using the right name for that. And there's been a number of other sites that have opened up.

I believe the–Gimli, if I'm not mistaken, is opening up today or will open soon –and other, y ou know, areas that the Minister of Health could get into more details of the numbers and all that sorts. * (10:20) But essentially, testing sites, the leases, that would be part of it, for the vaccine site leasing–so, there's the testing site leases and the vaccine site leases, other vaccine costs, contact tracing and things like PPE. Mr. Wasyliw: So how much of that allocated money has not been spent to date, then? Mr.

Fielding: We, of course, are just, you know, kind of two months into the year, so we will be revealing a comprehensive update in Q1. What we did last year, and I think probably, although we landed on it, but I think it makes some sense, is to provide kind of a COVID expenditure updates throughout the quarters that we'll commit to doing. We think that makes a lot of sense, and that will kind of highlight, you know, kind of where we are year to date for the areas. There is some fixed costs. We do anticipate test - ing site leases, you know, for the most part, probably going to cost us $5 million, give or take.

Vaccine site leases, again, $7 million. Things like visitation shel- ters is part of that, so that was part of the areas in personal-care homes, right, so that's somewhere in the neighbourhood of 45–those are $35 million. That's some examples of it, but, at the end of the day, we will providing a comprehensive spending document that will categorize where we're at in the Q1 report. Mr. Wasyliw: The next category you broke down is $350 million for health system costs for a –the third wave and for a potential fourth wave.

So I'm wondering if you could break down, of that $350 million, how much is actually been spent on this third wave; how much is being budgeted for the third wave and what's going to be left over for a potential– and, hopefully, we don't need it–fourth wave? Mr. Fielding: I like this approach, Mr. Chair. I feel like you're the headmaster at a school here where I'm answering some questions.

In any event, so the way the, you know, the bud- geting works –because we obviously introduced the budget in April, and then what happens is, it reports back from the departments kind of, like, after the month happens, and that's how we kind of consolidate it for the most part. So we really only have one month of data. Now, our hope, and what we had planned for in the budget, is to make sure we're prepared for a third or fourth wave, and that's why we put so much money in here, compared to other jurisdictions, in terms of COVID supports.

But we do anticipate, with the wave and, you know, where we're at with, you know, the first month or so, is that we should be on track with what we had allocated the three, four –$350 million in the first quarter, but, quite fra nkly, until we get more information back in terms of the expenditures, we know that we've been hit a lot harder in May than we have in April, and we don't have those numbers – consolidated–back from Health. But, you know, there is a lot of moving pieces that does happen in the bud- get process and especially during the pandemic.

And so, you know, what we do is we consolidate the numbers and we're committed to, you know, have a full-out understanding of where the money's being spent after the –at the first q uarter. So, to be fair, we are tracking where we thought we would, and that will provide enough money to provide supports. And even if we didn't have enough money, our govern - ment's committed to spend what it takes to protect Manitobans. Mr. Wasyliw: It's good to hear that the government actually put a plan in place for the third and maybe, regrettably, fourth wave.

So I'm wondering of that 350, how much has been allocated for the third wave and how much has been allocated for the fourth wave? Mr. Fielding: Yes, I'm going to refer you back to my previous statement. Again, as indicated, we allocated $350 million. We believe we're tracking on track with that number. We'll have a better indication after Q1, but to be fair, we've got over one month of data and, you know, there's obviously more expenditures in May, but I can tell you that we'll have a more ful - some response to that when Q1 report does come out. And we're committed to identifying our COVID expenditures.

But we are on track to spend that $350 million. Mr. Wasyliw: When the minister indicates we're on track to spend that $350 million, that's through a

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3619 course of an entire year, is that correct? It's not through the course of the third wave. Do I have that accurate, that he's anticipating leaving a chunk of that money not spent on the third wave? Mr. Fielding: No, that's not at all what I said. Mr. Wasyliw: Well, then, I'd ask the minister to clarify his comments and make it clear to the committee.

Is that $350 million budgeted for an enti re year, or is it budgeted for this third wave, and will he spend the entirety of the $350 million battling the third wave, or does he have a portion of it that's set aside for potentially a fourth wave or something that could happen in December of 2021? Mr. Fielding: Yes, I don't know what to say to you. I've answered the question twice to you. So, we've allocated $350 million. It's more than any other provinces have allocated for COVID types of expenditures. And so this will –we believe will protect Manitobans, ensuring that supports are there.

You do have to remember, too, that we already have things like a year's supply of things like PPE that are on hand. And so there's some costs that you won't have that you had last year. That's a part of it. But the $350 million is allocated to support the third and potentially–you know, hopefully this doesn't happen– a fourth wave. So, again, you know, we've got one month of data that's there, and so we're tracking on track with that expenditure. Mr. Wasyliw: So the minister said that they're on track with what they've allocated, so clearly they've set aside a portion at that $350 million for the third wave.

So I'm wondering if he can tell us what has been allocated for that third wave, where are they in their tracking–because they say they're on target –and how much is left within what they're allocating for the third wave after that. Mr. Fielding: Yes, Mr. Chair, I mean, I've answered this question three times for the member. I'm not sure what he doesn't understand about it, but clearly there's a lack of understanding, so I'm just going to refer him back to my statement two answers ago. Mr. Wasyliw: With the greatest of respect, the min - ister hasn't answered my question. He's dodged it several times.

He absolutely understands what I'm asking him, and he's basically told this committee that they're not spending the entire $350 million on the third wave and that they're apportioning it, and he's refusing to answer how much they're apportioning. And that's his right, but I wish he would just be straightforward with the committee and say, yes, they're–you're not going to release that information at this time instead of dancing around and playing games with this. So I'd ask this minister: Are you going to answer this question or are you going to refuse to give that information to the committee? * (10:30) Mr.

Fielding: Yes, I don't know; I'm going to have to repeat the answer for a fourth time. What our government has committed to doing is, in the first quarter, we'll release all our expenditures and where we're tracking to date. I think that's pretty open and transparent, to pro- vide all the information, similar to what we did in the mid-term review–and, you know, we can go through that as well–that identified what the costs were.

In fact, in the budge t document in the third quarter, there's further tracking if you look on one of the pages here, in the fiscal responsibility outcomes and eco- nomic growth strategy under one of the pages where– identified what we had spent last year. So we're very much open to providing the support. But I can tell you, you know, we have had a month worth of expenditures for April that have been reported into the system, and we're on track to have enough money in that $350 million to support it.

But at the end of the day, our government is committed to supporting the health-care system as much as it needs right now. And so if there would be a need for addi - tional money or to move money, then we absolutely would do that. So there shouldn't be any concerns for the member. And, again, our government is open and trans - parent and so–and the first-quarter report comes out; we'll provide all the expenditure costs, break outs, and the member will have all the information that's needed. Mr. Wasyliw: So I guess this minister has admit ted that they haven't spent the $350 million on the health- care system.

3620 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 Given that we are in a crisis right now, given that the hospitals are overrun, the ICUs are full, that we're shipping patients out of the province, that we're having massive staffing shortages, why isn't more money being put into the system right now to combat the third wave? What is the minister waiting for, and how much money is he withholding that he could be putting into the medical system right now that he's choosing not to? Mr. Fielding: You know, I'll refer the member to my previous statements. We've put $1.1 billion of support that's in place.

That's higher than the vast majority of all provinces in terms of their supports that are in place. Any money that is needed to support Manitobans during the pandemic, we are committed to supporting–and if the member has some sort of request that I somehow don't know of, from a Treasury Board level, that's been blocked, I'd be very surprised. But any responses, any money that's needed in the system from our level there isn't an issue. We need to do what it takes to support Manitobans, and that's why we put so much money in the health- care system.

You've got over $350 million supports that are there, and you've got $230 million of things like PPE and everything else that we've relied on that avenue. We've got over $300 million for contingency. You've got $100 million for vaccine sites. So I haven't heard from any health -care profes- sionals that somehow money isn't being, you know, isn't being allocated to address the crisis, the COVID crisis that's in place. Mr.

Wasyliw: So, since we have gone into this sort of critical level in the last few weeks, I'm wondering if the minister–confirm that the Health Department or Health Ministry has not made any additional requests for funding over and above what was already planned for the third wave, that you haven't received any additional requests, no additional money has been put into the system that wasn't already planned to be there, despite the significance of the third wave. Mr. Fielding: No, that's not right at all.

Well, first of all, just to unpack things, we have allocated, just on the core budget alone, $156 million more to the health -care field. In fact, since coming into office we've allocated about $750 million more to Health than the former NDP government ever did. But we have allocated $1.1 billion for COVID expenditures. So what happens from a government point – process is any time there is a needed approach, there is delegated authority through the chair –through Treasury Board and other members, to expend money.

So every week there will be items that come back to our Treasu ry Board to make decisions on COVID expenditures. So–and what happens is we've allocated a big amount of money, the 350 and other monies –1.1, really, when you look at all our avenues. So, as the expenditures come up, we allocate those dollars and we ap prove those dollars going forward. Mr.

Wasyliw: Since we've hit the critical level and been in the full sort of throttle of the third wave, has there been additional requests by the Ministry of Health over and above what was normally planned for this time of year prior to us getting hit by the third wave? Mr. Fielding: So, what happens from a budgeting point of view: (1) there's the core budget that every department has, of course. So they're allocated that money; that's the Estimates process, of course. And so we approve that so [inaudible] budget. So, for instance, the Health budget, between 6 to 7 billion dollars, right.

Now, we've kind of made a different department for mental health and addictions, so I think there's 300- and-some-odd, 350- some-odd million dollars that are there. So, departments are able to spend those monies because they've been allocated and approved. And so what we have allocated above and beyond that is COVID expenditures, the $1.1 billion, and so we've gone through and–through some of my press conferences and stuff we've identified what we put as costs that are associated with it. So these are monies that are–that we've approved.

Now, there may be a technical process where, you know, the actual cost comes back and we have to approve it, but until you expend the $1.1 billion that we've allocated under the ISA there would be no need to have another budget appropriation that's in place, because we have money to fund those appropriations either through the line departments, whether it be Health or Education or social services, whatever they are; also through the COVID expenditures. And so we broke down the COVID expenditures; so, you know, there's $1.1 billion. So, you know, until you've allocated that full amount of $1.1 billion, there

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3621 isn't a need to appropriate additional monies, but if there would, then we would work with your party and obviously the Liberal Party to appropriate more money. We did that in the last budget, right; there was two or three different budget bills. One came back because there were some dollars that the federal government appropriated to us for, you know, passing on to muni- cipalities, $106 million, and other types of initiatives. There was additional monies for COVID because we tabled a budget before the pandemic hit.

So, you know, to be fair to the member, we've allocated the $1.1 billion. Until we've used that up, there isn't a need for additional appropriations. They can come and, you know, they get approval to expend this. In fact, we've given delegated authority to some of our officials to expend that money, and then it comes back. Mr. Wasyliw: So, given what the minister's just said, you're–there is a large portion of the $350 million that hasn't been spent yet, and his comments are –is that when they're tracking it, it's sort of –it's where they expected it to be. Why hasn't it spiked?

Why hasn't there been more requests for more resources during the third wave and that it's just been constant and it's where you expected it to be? Nobody could've predicted the impact, financially, three or four weeks ago. And so if nothing has changed in the ministry's plan, that is very indicative that there really hasn't been any unusual or exceptional expenses being drawn upon it by the Health Department. So I'm wondering if you can explain that? Mr. Fielding: You know, again, I'll maybe explain it one more time to the member.

I knew –I know he's a new member, so sometimes it's difficult to do all your homework at once and make sure you understand the processes in government is–obviously, it's important to make sure you understand the processes. But what happens is, again, we allocate money through the budget process. Those go to the depart - ments. They're able to spend their dollars once it's appropriated through the budget. We've appropriated, you know, $1.1 billion in COVID expenditures, so that money is there. That's a commitment from our government and–to spend those monies.

And as the bills come in, that's how we pay it: through the $1.1 billion of expenditures that are in place. So, you know, I'm not sure what more I can add to the discussion now. You know, we've allocated a good amount of money, more than other provinces. We're paying the costs as they come in, as the bills come in. We estimate throughout the year, right; you don't know how much you might have to spend on security, or what have you, for some of these super - sites or, you know, maybe staffing levels go up or down.

So, you know, at the beginning of the year, you figure out what we think will be costs, and for the most part you base it on, you know, what are our officials are telling us and what we spent last year on these things, how much PPE you might need, right. And it's taking in the fact that we have a, you know, year's supply of some of these items that's in place. * (10:40) So that's–you know, when you do your budget, you do your best guessed estimate of what the dollars and cents are.

They've got authority to spend this beyond the $7 billion they have in their budget, which now, through some of the budget changes we made, they're able to move their monies around a little bit more for it. So they have authority to spend it. The way the Treasury Board and the government system works–whether it be under the NDP govern- ment or a Conservative government–you know, is–the money has been appropriated in those areas, and they're able to come back when these expenditures – when the bills are due and then, you know, we approve them from there.

So it–until you get above and beyond the $1.1 billion for COVID expenditures, you know, I can't tell you what's going to happen in the fall. My hope, and I'm sure the member's hope, is that we're through this third wave and so–that the costs go down, you know, and there isn't a fourth wave. But there may be some additional costs. You might have to, you know, look at, you know, other areas, not just in Health but in other areas where you might need more supports. Maybe there's more supports for people coming out of this, right? Business supports or whatever to make sure the economy is charged.

But you know our government is really commit - ted to two things: No. 1 is protecting Manitobans to providing the supports that are in place, and we do think that the amount of money that we've allocated here, the $1.1 billion, knowing that it's more than pretty much every other province is the appropriate – and a lot of–money.

3622 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 And my commitment as the Minister of Finance is if there's more money needed to support and protect Manitobans, we're going to do everything. We take– and with the help of the opposition parties, if there would be additional need for additional appropria - tions, we certainly would be bringing it as quickly as we can to the House. But until that– 'til $1.1 billion of expenditures is fully allocated, you know, there isn't a need because the money is there. They've got the ability to spend that money. Mr.

Wasyliw: I see in 27.1 of the budget, the Emergency Expenditures, $100 million has been set aside. Has any of that money been spent this year at all? Mr. Fielding: So, the $100 million is an appropriate– appropriations amount that's allocated for really emer- gencies, and so the category's broad, but for the most

part in previous years that goes for things like floods or forest fires. We know, o bviously, this is a bit of a drier year, but we are fortunate to get a bit of rain last week, which is a good thing. But to directly answer the member's question, no. No money has been spent of that as of yet, but, you know, as we track throughout the ye ar, that's $100 million of additional expenditures that we could tap into if need be for a variety of things –not just COVID, but it could be for floods and forest fires. So no, none of that money has been tapped so far. Mr.

Wasyliw: I'm wondering if the minister can give us an update about the rainy day fund and where it sits currently and whether there's any plans to use it to fund hospitals and schools at this time. Mr. Fielding: As you may recall, at one point the rainy day fund was allocated for an–$800 million. Unfortunately, it had been drained by the NDP government to–I think it was about $110 million when we first came to office.

And so with some of the pre - work–and thank goodness we did some of this pre - work, we were able to build up the allocations to around $800 million–over $800 million –because of the mistakes made by the NDP government. And so, at year end, that's when we generally tend to access the rainy day fund. We did access it for the support for the Bridge Grant program. I think it was just over $200 million. And I believe there's about $585 million that will be allocated –left in the rainy day fund.

You know, what we want to make sure –and I want to be clear about this, the rainy day fund, there's a lot of talk in the media with this. What this is, it's a fund within our existing system, and the ad- vantage of this, for instance, is you don't want to drain it all because there's fires and floods and everything else that happens in Manitoba, so you don't want to be totally drained from it, but we were able to tap into it to support businesses.

We're very proud of that and, in fact, the ability to tap into just over 200- and-some-odd million dollars for the Bridge Grant program actually saved us money because we didn't have to deal with the capital markets and–to borrow that money because it's money that was on hand, right? And so I think we were able to save, you know, millions of dollars by not going to the cap- ital market over a 20-year period. That's a part of it. But I want to be perfectly clear, you know, what- ever is in the rainy day fund has no implications on the deficit number.

Now, it did back in the day, I guess, when the governments mainly went from a core–we used to call it core and

summary budget. So, the accounting of that has changed based off what the Auditor General wanted us to do, to move to a sum - mary basis because it's more of a transparency–trans- parent way of, you know, identifying, you know, how much money you have in your system, not just in the core government, you know, but also, kind of, the Crowns.

And so, you know, again, I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that the amount of money that you're taking in and out of the rainy day fund has any implications on the deficit number, but it is cash on–like, it is real money in account that you can use to address issues, which we did, in the last, you know, public accounts, I guess it was, through our budget - ing–year-end budgeting process that allowed us not to go to the capital markets.

There was some savings to governments in that respect, and that is something that–and we did release this on March 30th, so there's a press release that talks about $215 million to protect local businesses. So if you do have some discussions with, you know, people like the bond-rating agencies, they very much like the fact that we were able to rebuild the rainy day fund and that you have cash on hand. I can give you a real life example. I kind of said this a few times and there has been a huge pick-up in the media, but I think it's really important.

You know, back in March–and I'm on calls to the finance ministers across the nation, really, weekly –

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3623 now it's gone down to bi -weekly, but at that point it was really weekly, almost daily contacts with all the ministers of finance and Mi nister Morneau, at that point. And there was a scary time in March where provincial–we call sub-sovereigns–couldn't access the capital markets, so the spreads were just so impossible that we were weeks –I'd say weeks away from not being able to pay our bills, quite frankly, being able to pay our obligations as a government.

Now that cleared up, and thank goodness it did, and there was some help with the federal government, in terms of some programs, buying T -bond–T-bills, rather, and long- term bonds that helped. And our Premier (Mr. Pallister) actually took a leadership role in that too, because he really convinced the federal government to backstop us, I guess, you know, be - cause they can borrow money cheaper than us, but my point is there was a time in March where we couldn't access the capital markets.

And so having $800 million on hand really pro - tected us, because if we would not be available to pay our obligations or pay our staff because we couldn't access the capital markets, that would have been a horrible situation. And so that's why it's important to have a lot of money on hand and also, I guess, if we just look to my press release on March 30th, what is important is the dip in the rainy day fund will keep Manitoba borrow- ing–from going to the capital markets –saved about $45 million in interest costs based on what interest rates would be.

Now, interest rates are lower now, which is good, but, you know, governments can borrow money at a better rate, but above and beyond, you know, having this ability to pay, if there is an ability to pay, which is critically important and is very much supported bond-rating agencies, we saved taxpayers $45 million because we didn't have to go to the capital markets by dipping into the rainy day fund. Mr. Wasyli w: The minister indicated that there was also a $300-million contingency fund out of this Internal Service Adjustments. How much has been spent on that $300 million to date? * (10:50) Mr. Fielding: Yes.

It's really important to have con - tingency during the pandemic. We've kind of seen, you know, one thing that can be expected with the pandemic is you got to–you know, it's a moving target. I mean, sometimes the items that you think are going to happen or things that you think may happen don't. And so it's really important to prepare. And so above and beyond, I guess, incorporated in $1.1 billion was $300 million in contingency. And so that really provides an opportunity for different initiatives that are funded. Not all these are funded through that same mechanism, but I'll give you maybe a couple examples.

What we heard is, you know, across the country, that because of the federal sick leave program, for instance, you know, we needed to have some sort of sick leave program because there was kind of a week lag before employees could access that federal pro - gram. And so we brought in a program –you know, it could be upwards of $60 million–that will support individuals, and it's the longest kind of sick leave pro- gram in the country, about five days; other provinces like NDP BC were three days, and Ontario were three days. And so ours is the longest duration.

Long story short, I mean, programs like that, and I guess the second program that I would mention is the Bridge Grant program. We knew going into the bud- get process that we had to be prepared, and so the $300 million allowed us to prepare for different initiatives. And so we have –did another appropriation for a Bridge Grant program, which, I believe, and I've got– I think I've got close to the right numbers here, so I'll just–might as well give them to the member here. You know, the Bridge Grant program is in the neighbourhood of $71 million.

So every time you allocate that, I think there's about 15,000 businesses that have been sup ported; all totalled, you know, we've allocated about $671 million to business sup - port programs; that's like the bridge programs, the grant–the gap programs, you know, pandemic sick relieve, all these items. So, long story short, we've used the continge ncy what we used for these types of initiatives when they're needed. We've talked a lot about having the right programs at the right time, and so those are – allow us the flexibility because of our planning for a second or third wave to address issues like that. Mr.

Wasyliw: So how much of that $300 million has actually been spent? Mr. Fielding: So, you know, I guess, you know, quick math just says, really, about $71 million from

3624 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 the Bridge Grant program and upwards of $60 million for the pandemic relief type of program. Now, again, it really depends on how many people access that program, but we've allocated a good amount of money. We're encouraging people to use it. We think it's good for employers, employees. There is also smaller amounts for a top -up to the restaurant program at $3.5 million. Now, that kind of came from a different line, I guess, in our budget. Well, we're budgeting for it. So those are the two allocations so far. Mr.

Wasyliw: The minister had indicated that $671 million was allocated for business support pro- grams. How much has actually been spent? Mr. Fielding: I'll get the member to turn to the budget document on fiscal responsibility outcomes and eco- nomic growth strategy, on page 45. So it does iden- tify–and these are the supports for businesses. Now, again, this is the third -quarter report for last year, so it'll–I do have additional dollars, and some of it –and I'll go through kind of what we've allocated this year. But of that, as you can see from the –page 45, there's been $430 million as of the third quarter.

Now, this takes into consideration Bridge Grant, the gap program, the long-term relief fund, the Back to Work, and identifies our commitments and our expenditures that's related to it. Some of these are ongoing expenditures. So there's the–that's in the third quarter, and then just the two other expenditures. We spent a lot more, but the other two expenditures –major ones, I guess I would say –is additional, you know, allocation of $71 million for the Bridge Grant th at I just had identified and then up to $60 million for the sick leave program that's above and beyond that.

So that's what we came up with, 671, that appropriates the third quarter reports and the dollars that we've identified this year. Mr. Wasyliw: So of the $60 million that you're allo- cating for the sick leave program, how much has actually been spent? Mr. Fielding: And, so, the sick leave program went live, I guess, two weeks ago. So I don't have the numbers here. We can–you–we can find out what they would be, you know, coming forward. It really de - pends on how many businesses apply for it and how many people are sick, for the most part. I would also talk about the bridge program.

The money did flow, the $71 million did flow to busi - nesses. We didn 't have them, you know, kind of reapply or anything else. It just–if you got the Bridge Grant program before, you got the money in your bank account, and I believe they got it over the last week and half or so. Mr. Wasyliw: The lockdown restrictions have been extended now for at least another week, and the First Minister calls them the toughest in Canada, and it's hurting certain sectors of the small -business com - munity who are again closed for yet another week.

Will there be additional compensation for those businesses to be closed, and when will you be announcing them and in what form will that compen- sation be? Mr. Fielding: Yes, Mr. Chair, so thank you for the question. So, we have allocated, as I mentioned already, this year to small businesses $71 million. The money did flow about a week and a half ago. So, you know, there is money in people's bank accounts there –from the business sector.

We also introduced over the last two weeks another–again, another program for the paid sick leave program and then also a bridge top- up grant goes to restaurants now, as of June the 30–a three point–$6 million. So that was, like, you know, there because the restrictions came on kind of around the May long weekend, right. Sorry, not May long week- end; I guess it's Mother's Day, and so lot of restaurants had a lot of inventory, and so we thought that pro- viding a bit of a top up there made some sense. We allocated that. And then, of course, there was another commit - ment.

I believe it was $2 million for–it's a program, a rebate program for delivery. So it's kind of like Skip the Dishes and that sorts. We basically pay the costs of that. So that's money we have allocated already. We obviously have money available, and we do pride our- selves on doing programs at t he right time and the right place. So, yes, there will be some potential future programs that are there. I do also want to have the member recognize that we had a number of dollars that are in the budget for things like job incentives, wage incentives. So, for instance, we know that youth have been, you know,

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3625 hit pretty hard during the pandemic, so we allocated about $25 million to wage support programs. Now, I think, you know, when you look at these things with the pandemic when you're in a complete shutdown mode, probably programs like the bridge program makes a lot more sense. You know, the wage kind of subsidy types of programs probably will make more sense later on in summer when businesses re - open and they, you know, and trying to hire their staff back.

So it's kind of a balanced approach to providing supports, $671 million so far, and then the money that we've identified already this year with some of the wage-support programs that are in place. * (11:00) And also, I would suggest that, you know, some of the supports that we did for businesses –so things like cutting the payroll tax–is something that the busi- ness communities talked about for a very long time. And so we've taken pride in the fact that over the last two years, we've increased the th resholds.

And so there's been, kind of, thousands of businesses that haven't, you know, have either not having to pay the business–or rather the payroll tax, or kind of moved up the threshold, I guess, if you will, and so they're not paying as much. As well as other targeted tax measures for digital tax measures–the film industry, you know, important that is here and so we did some other changes, as well as some other tax measures to lure some digital players, right? Ubisoft is one, obviously.

There's some different content and stuff like that that will make them more viable here, as well as other things like the education property tax that's going to benefit mainly residents but also businesses at a 10 per cent rebate. So we've done a number of those types of things to support businesses, and as the situation arises and we go forward, you know, for the Bridge Grant pro- gram–I think this is our fourth what I'll call tranche. So if there's a need to do more –you know, what we have done through this pandemic is really, you know, we're kind of, on a monthly basis, we've kind of look- ed at this.

If there's further restrictions that happen, we would consider it, but the $71 million for the Bridge Grant program just flowed about two weeks ago. Mr. Wasyliw: In relation to the Bridge Grant and the fourth tranche, to use your words, you simply just gave payments to, I guess, those businesses that have already benefitted from the program.

But we're hearing from small businesses that new businesses have been barred f rom applying for the Bridge Grant, and I'm wondering if you can explain why we're not allowing new businesses to apply and that only assistance is flowing to those that have cur- rently been accepted to prior tranches for the program. Mr. Fielding: So, we really taken pride in the fact that our programs have been flexible. We've made a num- ber of changes throughout the course of a variety of these programs, whether it be the gap program or the bridge–the types of businesses that can't support. They've been easy to access, right.

I mean, just the fact that we were able to allocate another round of payments for the Bridge Grant program, we were able to announce it and we were able to get it in people's bank accounts because they need money right off the bat. So we were able to do it, kind of, an ease basis. We've been flexible in terms of the changes we need to–made, you know, and other items. So we're always evaluating what makes sense, what businesses need support and where there, you know, where there's support in place.

I think if you look at every level of government, they would probably say –at least if you talk to my colleagues, the ministers of finance across the country, I think, generally been known that there's been some sectors that have been dramatically impact- ed, right. The accommodation services, the tourism, restaurants, bars–I mean, these are areas where people co-habitate, you know. The cultural sector, you know, and sports facilities, these types of things, they've all been impacted because, you know, more people go to their facilities.

And so, you know, having, probably, some of these global programs where all sectors get money, as opposed to more of a targeted approach, I think most finance ministers would say we need to use more of a targeted approach. And so that's what we've tried to do here. And one thing I can say from last summer –we went through the first wave and economy started kicking back in. I think we lost somewhere just under 100,000 jobs. And so some of the programs that we had in place, the wage subsidy programs, you know, seemed to work quite well.

But again, I think there's a difference between when you're in a lockdown, like we are now, versus, you know, when you're on the rebound. And so we're going to evaluate these things, and if there's a need.

3626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 We've taken pride in the fact that we provide some flexibility with changes to the right programs at the right time. Mr. Wasyliw: So why have you barred new small businesses from applying for the grants? Why isn't the government going to recognize their sacrifices and their difficulties? Mr. Fielding: So I guess I'd point out a few things: No. 1, as the third wave and probably the biggest of the lockdown which happened, I guess, a week and a half–about two weeks ago now, you know, we want to make sure people got the money quickly.

And so what we did is we extended that out, you know, so people that had applied. And just for the record, you know, we've had, I think, upwards of 70,000 individual payments, there's about 125,000 businesses in the province of Manitoba. So of the s ix hundred and, you know, seventy one million dollars of money that's flowed out to businesses to support them during the pandemic, you know, we provided, you know, I mean, 70,000 individual payments to hundred twenty–so I'll let you do the math on that, but there's a good portion of businesses that did get support for–there.

And the Bridge Grant program in and itself sup- ported upwards of 15,000 businesses. So somehow to say that, you know, we weren't catching a wide net of businesses that were supported and the fact that we, you know, continuously listened to the business com- munity and others and saying, you know, this group or that group should be supported. We made some pretty important changes to the programs as we moved forward. So we're always going to listen to that. We're always going to have a ear to listening to the business community and others that are impacted by the pan- demic.

And so I'm going to say nothing is off the table. Mr. Wasyliw: So, what I'm hearing from this minister is that this wasn't an oversight, that this was inten - tional, that he intentionally excluded new businesses from being able to apply for the grant. I'm wondering if–how he can justify that? What's the policy reasons for not providing support to new businesses, and will he commit today to changing that and allowing new businesses to apply for the grant? Mr. Fielding: No, the member's completely wrong. I didn't say that at all. In fact, that's what he said. That's his words, not mine.

What I said to the member is we've allocated $670 million to businesses to support them. I said that all along we've had a flexible program, we've had a program that's easy to access and broad base program for the most part. Now we're being more –a bit more specific with some of the wage subsidies that will happen probably later on in summer. So, no, I didn't say that at all. That was the mem- ber saying it. Mr. Wasyliw: That's good to hear. So will the minister commit today to opening up the Bridge Grant program to new businesses? And if he won't, why not? Mr.

Fielding: We're always committed to listening to the business community and making sure the pro- grams–the right programs, the right time. You know, I do think that, you know, when we allocated the other $71 million to the 15,000 busi - nesses that got a fourth round of the payments through the bridge program, we wanted to make sure they got the money quickly in their pockets. You know, if there's sectors of businesses that we–that somehow weren't supported, you know, we're always going to take a look at that.

To be fair, t he program has been open for quite a long time and I think we initially established this in –Novemberish, and so it has been open for, you know, five, six months, right? And–or, rather, you know – [interjection]–so, five, six, you know, somewhere around there. And so it's a good amount of time for businesses to be supported. And so we're always going to monitor what makes sense and so if there's other sectors that, you know, didn't apply in that first four -, five -month period, we're certainly will take a look at that. * (11:10) Mr.

Wasyliw: I'm wondering if the minister can tell the committee how many Manitoba businesses have closed in the past year. Mr. Fielding: Sorry for the delay. I just –we have a report from a insolvency bankrupt –insolvency bankruptcy businesses. Now, this is pulled from Stats Canada and is incorporated at the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics. So, and I–we can get you the information of what pages these are on. For the most part, in 2020, there was 28 busi - nesses that filed for insolvency bankruptcy. Now–and so far, it looks like in year -to-date there's been three.

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3627 Now, this seems –the numbers seem very low, here, but what I guess I would suggest–and we can get some further information from our departments on that – that's Stats Canada and 'bankruss'–there isn't a require- ment for businesses that maybe just shut their doors, right, to report into Stats Canada, that we relay in our Manitoba Bureau of Statistics.

So, you know, I can tell you that, globally, that I know businesses that have been impacted and, really, the sectors that have been hurting the most, you know, I think are things like restaurants, things like hotels, things like accommodation services or tour - ism, things like, you know, where people have to come out and help out, you know, where they come as a kind of a group setting that's there. So, we can provide that information from Stats Canada to the member. I can tell you, during the pandemic, we lost about 90,000 jobs overall. So those are the people that were laid off.

Now, about a good portion of that has come back. Now, there's obviously been some, probably, layoffs and that sorts that have happened since the pandemic has happened. But the latest stats was, I believe, over about 10,000 people of that 90,000 are still unemployed, which is far too many. So those are kind of the areas, the information, that we have. Again, there is no requirement for busi- nesses to register in those areas, but certainly those are the sectors that would be hurt. Mr. Wasyliw: Well, the Province would have busi - ness registration information and the Province would also have tax information.

And, obviously, you would know how many businesses stopped paying taxes and stopped being registered as businesses in Manitoba. So I suspect you hav e that information. I'm just wondering if you can share that with the committee. * (11:20) Mr. Fielding: I apologize for the time. I just want to make sure I'm getting the right information. So just to kind of circle back with the numbers that I quoted before, so this is prepared by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics adapted from the – industry Canada. So that's Stats Canada. And this was produced on April 15th, 2021.

So those are the latest st ats that we have, and it talks about territories, including other in Canada. So this talks about the insolvency piece. But to directly answer the member's question, there isn't a requirement–like, let's say someone has a business number, for instance. T here isn't a require - ment for them to, you know, report back to the govern- ment or–that issues the business number, that they've, you know, gone bankrupt or whatever kind of busi - ness structuring that they have in place. So we don't have that.

Now, we do have a program, and I can–you know, our officials are just looking for this right now. There is a number of businesses that applied–like, we've allowed them to say, if you need to defer your PST remittance or, you know, some of the other taxes that are in place if you're kind of a bit of a smaller busi - ness–so we can provide those –information to busi - nesses that have asked that –those deferrals. We had that last year and, of course, we extend it out this year.

So, again, to answer the questions, there isn't a requirement for businesses to call to the 'bijuss' – business registry, right, I guess, and say, you know, I'm going to close out my business number. And that does make some sense, right. Even–let's say you decide to close your doors as a business. You may be a–you know, you may not–the first thing you may do isn't necessarily to cancel your business number. So it's–there isn't really a requirement to report back to the provincial government in respect to that. Mr.

Wasyliw: Now, the minister earlier had said that, in relation to the Bridge Grant, if it needed, you know, more to be done, that they would consider it, and he prefaced that with if there was further restrictions. Well, there has been further restrictions, and the small-business community is calling for more to be done because they have widely–through their profes- sional bodies –have indicated that the supports that have been in place so far have been inadequate and not enough.

So, given that the lockdown restrictions for some businesses have been extended, will the government commit to another new tranche of the grant program? And if not, why? Mr. Fielding: So what we had–the money has flown, right, from the third–I don't want to call it a tranche, but third amount of money that's been flow ed to–or, fourth, actually–fourth, you know, payment, I guess, to businesses–the 15,000 businesses about a week and a half ago, or two weeks at the very latest.

So, you know, the restrictions that are in place are pretty much kind of –there's been, you know, some changes to them, but for the most part they were status

3628 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 quo from what has been in place for the last two weeks. So we will evaluate for sure. And my sense is there would be–some more sup- ports will be in place. But knowing the fact that in the course of when we've had to use the Bridge Grant pro- gram, for the most part we've flowed the money, you know, 30 days out or so. It's almost on a monthly basis. We're only two weeks, really, into the global restrictions that are in place. So we will evaluate that. I believe the next health orders last until June 12th if I'm not mistaken–right around the–June 12th.

So we will evaluate. And, again, if there's a need we hear from the business community–I don't necessarily have heard those concerns, quite frankly, from the business com- munity. I mean, they're–certainly have been very good at lobbying for their members, but, you know, I think there has been a lot of support for programs like the bridge program and the gap program and some of the wage incentive programs. And I think that some of the tax measures were very much supported in the business community. If you're getting rid of or enhancing the payroll taxes, I think that's very much supported.

There's about a thousand businesses that don't have to pay the payroll taxes. You know, there's kind of support programs for the digital economy and all that sorts that will be a part of it. There's $50 million that went out to the Chambers of Commerce for some long-term strategies that's–to enhance, kind of, their e-commerce kind of platform. So my–back to–my direct answer to you is we're going to evaluate this, but really the money flowed about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago, so we will evaluate that. You know, hopefully there is – doesn't have to be any further lockdowns.

So, you know, it looks like the numbers at least this week have–seem to –plateaued, so our hope is, of course, that the numbers, you know, will go down. I think they're actually a little bit down from where they were about a week ago or so, but I haven't seen the numbers today, so. That's a long-winded answer of saying we'll eval- uate it, but the money has just flowed over the last two weeks for the bridge last payment. Mr.

Wasyliw: So if I'm hearing the minister correctly, it's the time of the extension, that it's only a week; that if it was a month then the government would more seriously consider it, but it's too short of an extension period and that's the concern for the government? Mr. Fielding: No, that's not at all what I said. Mr. Wasyliw: That's, in fact, exactly what you said.

So why isn't the minister, if that's not what he said, committed to giving more support, given that the lockdown restrictions have been extended for a month, and why does he keep saying, well, we jus t– the cheques just went out, and normally, you know, we do this on a monthly basis? So how does he reconcile those very contradictory statements? Mr. Fielding: You know, it's not contradictory. It's you that's trying to make it contradictory. What I clearly have said is our programs are broad- based. They've been flexible– Mr. Chairperson: I'd like to interrupt.

Whenever referring to –the word , you, should not be used. It should be the member's constituency or title. The honourable Minister of Finance. Mr. Fielding: That's not at all what I said. What I said is that our programs are very broad -based. They're flexible and it's the right programs, the right time. We flowed over $671 million so far to support businesses. We've provided a number of programs t hat provide flexibility for businesses and we will be evaluating, you know, as we go forward. So, we have money, obviously, through contin- gencies to address this.

We're very proud of the fact that over the last week and a half, two weeks, that 15,000 businesses have got another $5,000, and so we'll evaluate as we go forward. Our hope is that there won't be any restrictions back; they'll be loosening them, but that really depends on the numbers and what our health officials like Dr. Roussin are advising us to do in terms of the health measures. Mr. Wasyliw: Now, you had indicated that in this– Mr. Chairperson: I would like to, if I –just mention that if all comments could come through the Chair direct.

Like, you should not be used; it should be the minister or the member or direct it through the Chair, but the word you should not be used. Mr. Wasyliw: My apologies, Mr. Chair. The minister had indicated earlier that $160 million was set aside for COVID-related educa- tion expenses for K -to-12 system. I believe in the House we heard, from a FIPPA request, that there's about $107 million, roughly, has been spent on that. There's roughly about $70 million left in that.

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3629 I'm wondering if he can confirm those numbers that there's about $70 milli on left of that original $160 million. Or, if I have that wrong, what's the actual number? * (11:30) Mr. Fielding: So yes, I believe the numbers that the minister had indicated are accurate. I'll get the mem - ber to refer to a press release, actually, yesterday that talks about the Province provides protection and addi- tional millions of dollars for safe schools.

So it identifies, you know, $58 million for new funding for 2021- 22, ensured continued pandemic protection for schools towards resources, and then it, kind of, identifies investments over the next school year. It'll be $40 million for per-pupil allocations for school divisions and independent schools; $6 million for potential costs for PPE; six –or sorry–$5 million for kindergarten-to-grade-8 Remote Learning Support Centre for students; $7 million for contingency, including $5 million in recovery learning.

Kind of goes on to talk about some of the pro- grams, and I think the initial questions was, yes, for the current school year, the Province is projecting to invest about $170 million by the end of June. Mr. Wasyliw: So we heard that there's, you know, something like 60, 70 million that hasn't been spent. There's a few weeks of school left. Why hasn't that money been spent? And is there a commi tment that all that money will go to the schools prior to the end of June 30th, 2021? Mr.

Fielding: So yes, I believe the commitment was 186–that–185, 186, right around that ballpark figure, and–of that money, what the divisions–or, rather what the Education Department is suggesting by the end of June, that $170 million, that will be spent. Yes. Mr. Wasyliw: Now, because of Bill 28, many school divisions proceeded as if it was law and didn't fairly bargain with the teachers and other collective agree- ments in their world. Now that's all blown up and school boards are on the hook for four years of back pay and interest, and this is blowing 20- , 30-million- dollar holes in some of their budgets.

It's leading to–it was reported in the paper today– 120, 130 te acher layoffs at the Winnipeg School Division. I know Pembina Trails, another one of my schools divisions, can't –doesn't have the money to hire 19 teachers for the 350 new students that they have this year because they have to catch up and pay this money. Now this government has prevented school boards from raising that money from property taxes and this government's also cut funding to schools. So this government's created these holes.

So, given that, will this minister take respon - sibility for the prob lems that he's created and ensure that no school division is going to be caught short for funding as a result of this and that the Winnipeg School Division and Pembina Trails, in particular, and others as well, will have those costs paid so that they can make sure that, you know, 150 teachers aren't laid off this year. Mr. Fielding: Obviously, that's discussions that the minister and our departments will be having with each of the individual school departments –school divisions, rather, in terms of that. Obviously, that's an important area.

We know that, you know, some divi - sions have had better luck at not raising taxes. I know, Mr. Chair, when the member for Fort Garry (Mr.

Wasyliw) was part of the Winnipeg School Division, you know, really did focus in on tax- and- spend types of policies and, in fact, just looking at some of the increases they had year after year –boy, here in 2012–and this is obviously one of the poorest school divisions that are around with a lot of needs that are there, but the tax increases for–been jacked up on individuals in the Winnipeg School Division–in 2012, there was a 7.8 per cent increase–goodness gracious; 2013, there was a 6.8 per cent increase in school taxes; 2014, there was a 3.6 per cent increase, and in 2015 there was a 3.2 per cent increase.

So, sometimes it's easy, you know, for politicians to take the lazy way out and, you know, just go to the taxpayers and jack up taxes. That's not something our government is really focusing on. We're focusing on cutting taxes, and so that's why we've done things like reducing the education property tax–a 25 per cent reduction this year and 25 per cent next year, for a 50 per cent reduction. I know the member for Fort Gary thinks that everyone –all those 650,000 home - owners–are wealthy. That doesn't really seem to be, you know, kind of a message. If I go in my local community, St.

James, which is a–you know, Kirkfield Park, which is kind of an average community, if I said to them, you're a prop- erty owner, you're one of the 650,000 property ow - ners, and you must be wealthy because the member of Fort Garry says you are, they're going to look at me and they're going to, you know, say this is just crazy talk. You know, providing–you know, having–sug - gesting that everyone who's a property tax owner in

3630 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 the province of Manitoba is wealthy because you own property is just completely not something that they would agree with. Mr. Wasyliw: Well, you know, losing 130 teachers in one school division, 20 in a much smaller school division, is d evastating. It's Calgary -type education where there's 47 kids in a classroom. And this minister believes that's the way Manitoba should head. It's shameful. I'm embarrassed for him for this last comment that he wants to brag about wealthy tax cuts when his government has basically put our education system in crisis.

Shame on him. Shame on this government. I'd like to stand behind him when he has those con- versations with the parents in his riding and what they think about the cuts to their schools. School trustees protect the education system. No school trustee ever wants to raise taxes, and they only have raised taxes because there has been five years of end-to-end cuts to the education system by this min - ister and this government. They have now put the edu- cation system in crisis by blowing a huge hole in education budgets. They have, what we're hearing, about $1 billion sitting in the bank.

Will this minister commit today to paying back the school boards the money that they took with this whole Bill 28 wage-theft debacle? Mr. Fielding: Well, this is where the two parties have a big disagreement. The member thinks that everyone who owns property in the province of Manitoba is wealthy. That's just something that doesn't fly.

And quite frankly, I guess i t'll be a big –when the next election comes, you know, having that sort of message where he walks around telling you, yes, you're –you must be wealthy because you own property is some - thing I guess he'll have to decide whether that makes sense to talk about or not. But the member also talks about somehow our cuts and that somehow we forced the school divisions to increase taxes. Well, you know, I'm looking at his record, and the reality is, Madam Speaker, that he was lazy and he decided, you know, that it wa s easier to jack up taxes on some of the lowest income indivi - duals.

This is before we came to office. * (11:40) In 2012, the member who was chair at the point to–you know that Professor Wiens has talked about his out -of-control nature in terms of his approach when he was the chair of the Winnipeg School Division. He increased taxes by 7.8 per cent. That was under NDP government. And then in 2013, he decided that wasn't enough, so he decided to jack up taxes 6.8 per cent on some of the lowest income individuals in the province. And then he decided that wasn't enough, as well, so it was easier just to go to the tax - payers and jack up taxes in 2014 by 3.6 per cent.

And then in 2015 he decided to increase it by another 3.2 per cent. So I'm not sure if that's the track record the member is bringing to the Legislature. You know, I guess people will have probably this decision point probably in the next election. You know, do they want someone that decides to jack up taxes like the member from Fort Garry does? I s that what you're going to bring to the provincial economy? Do you think that's something that's going to help the provincial economy by that increase in some of the lowest income individuals? But that's his track record and so I guess he'll have to live with that.

Our commitment, in terms of education, actually this year went up by over $91 million and, in fact, we've committed to $1.6 billion of new expenditures. And overall, our expenditures on education system have gone up by over $560 million each an d every year more than what the NDP had spent. Mr. Wasyliw: Will this minister commit to providing money to every school division, including the Winnipeg School Division and Pembina Trails, to replace the 130 teachers they're going to have to lay off becau se of cuts and underfunding by this government?

And if he won't replace that money, how many kids does he believe they should pack into a class - room? Because they're going to be well over 30 in some schools. So I'm wondering if he can tell us how many kids one teacher should be teaching in a public school in Manitoba? Mr. Fielding: Our government's very proud of the fact that we've increased education funding by $560 million. In fact, I think we're second or third in the country on a per capita basis in terms of education expenditures. We're very proud of that.

We wanted to make sure that we're making im - portant investments in the education system and so that's why we've committed to $1.6 billion of oper- ating and capital expenditures. That includes this year $260 million in capital expenditures to get 20 new schools built.

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3631 That didn't happen under the NDP government. You know, they just decided that, I guess, there wasn't a need for education. We made historical commit - ments in terms of funding for education, in terms of operating and capital. We're committed to that. We've followed through with what our commitments are as a government. And to answer the member's direct point, the Minister of Education (Mr. Cullen) will obviously have discussions with each of these school divisions as it relates to that.

Obviously, there's been some arbi- trary awards that have been awarded; that's part of it. But we think that making $260 million of commit - ments on capital schools that should've been funded a long time ago under your former government is an important investment. We think that more money should be spent at the classroom, you know, where they could put $40 million more in the classroom than, you know, spending it on things like junkets for school divisi on trustees.

I think you were one that enjoyed wintering in Texas at some of these conferences and, you know, I just don't think that's a good use of taxpayer dollars. And so we want to make these investments to support individuals and students. Mr. Wasyli w: Now, in 2020- 2021, the Pallister government budgeted over $221 million in internal service adjustments. I'm wondering if you can tell me how much of that $221 million was actually spent? Mr. Fielding: Sorry, could you repeat the question? I didn't fully hear it. Mr. Wasyliw: Certainly. This year, your internal service adjustments is $1,000,303,000 and some.

The previous year, it was two hundred and twenty -one– sorry–million, five hundred and fifty. What portion of that was actually spent from last year, the '20-21 budget? Mr. Fielding: That will come out in Public Accounts in September. Mr. Wasyliw: Now, the Idea Fund had about $25 million budgeted in 2019- 2020 and about $50 million in 2020-2021. And I'm wondering if the minister can tell us how much of it was actually spent in each of those respective years. Mr. Fielding: Yes, we're looking in our Public Accounts. I've got some of our officials looking at it. I'm not sure if we can provide the information now.

You know, we did allocate dollars. So, the premise of the program was to, you know, look at some long-term costs, if there's ways to saving. I think it's a return on investment's three or four times what your investment would be make. So we'd– may need to, like, modernize some equipment or some - thing that would allow, you know, better technology to save money in the long run. So we wanted to make sure, in some of these times, that the departments were kind of still thinking long term with these things.

And so if they're able to make some long- term investments, there was some money available for them above and beyond what there'd be normally in their budget to, you know, make these investments. And so what they would do is, we'd put out a call to these departments and they would come back with ideas. And then, through our Treasury Board process we would kind of say, oh, yes, that's a good infor - mation that's there. Just being handed something right now, so I'll maybe go through this. This is from –this is actually from our budget document for fiscal responsibly out- comes and economic growth. It's on page 94.

So it talks about some of the ISA Idea Fund programs. And so it's on the top of the page. So, since the start of the program, 34 programs have been completed with an average return on invest- ment of 247 per cent. Ongoing Idea Fund projects are expected to generate an average return on investments of 134 per cent. All together, the projects' average return on investment for completed and ongoing projects is 148 per cent with a total net savings to the government of $73.4 million on investments of 49.7.

So we invested 49.7 on–you know, some are tech- nology projects and some would, you know, just – they've got to make sure there's a long -term savings. And so of the 49 or almost 50 million dollars money that we spent, we're–we saved about $73 million. The member could be going here, so maybe I'll go here first. We didn't allocate anything under the edu- cation–the Teachers' Idea Fund this year. It will come out in Public Accounts.

And that's just because every- thing that was going on with the pandemic, it wasn't something that was utilized because of the nature of the pandemic and, obviously, the focal point on, you

3632 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 know, remote learning and everything that had to go on with the education system, like everything else in the pandemic this year. Mr. Wasyliw: The minister mentions the Learning Fund; $2 million was budgeted both for 2019- 2020 year and 2020-2021. So, how much had been spent out of that allocation in either year? * (11:50) Mr. Fielding: Yes.

Turning to the Learning Fund, so just so everyone in the committee's aware of–the Learning Fund was established in 2019-20, to support additional training opportunities for public servants to ensure that they had the skills they needed to meet the needs of Manitobans. In 2020- 21 the Learning Fund received over 620 applications–483 individual and 137 group applications; 87 per cent of these applications were approved, for a total investment of nearly $900,000 in–or, in over 3,300 public servants. Mr. Wasyliw: Okay, so there was less than 50 per cent of the money spent that year. How about the previous year?

Was the $2 million spent or was it undersubscribed? Mr. Fielding: I apologize about that. Could I get the question again? Sorry, Mr. Chair. Mr. Wasyliw: The minister had indicated that the Learning Fund spent $900,000 off of a $2 million budget. So, obviously, it's less than 50 per cent of the money allocated was actually spent. And I'm wondering if he can tell us–the previous year there was also an allocation of $2 million. Was it also undersubscribed? Did it also not get close to that $2 million that was actually budgeted? Mr.

Fielding: We are endeavouring to find out the previous year how much was spent, so I–our officials are looking for that right now. I may have an answer back before the end of our session today, or I could probably provide that. I know we're going to different sections on probably Monday and Tuesday, if I'm not mistaken. If I'm still in Committee of Supply and –so we can endeavour to get that information to you at that point. Mr. Wasyliw: Now, given the Learning Fund is about education, why was it included in Internal Service Adjustments?

Why wasn't it just simply put as a part of the envelope for the Education budget? Mr. Fielding: So, we have it in ISA, kind of central- ized, because this is something that all government, you know, employees are able to take advantage of. And so what happens on a routine basis is each depart- ment or departments that want to do –utilize the pro- gram can come back through Treasury Board and get the appropriations at that point. So it's not just a Department of Education initiative; it's kind of a whole government approach. And so that's really why we had it housed in ISA.

And so, you know, I've gone through some of the numbers of the types of, you know, applicants and the amount of civil servants that have access to the pro - gram, and so it's easier to do it centrally. Mr. Wasyliw: The Canada -Manitoba home and community care and health and addiction servicing fund agreement–it's gone up in funding this year. I'm wondering if you could explain what is that funding agreement and if you could explain the increase. Mr. Fielding: Yes, the Canada- Manitoba home and community care, mental health and addiction services.

In September of 2018, the Province entered into a five-year bilateral agreement with Health Canada to receive $182 million in revenues related to home and community care and mental health and addictions. The appropriation provides the expenditure authority, which is shared between several departments, related to the federal funding received through the bilateral agreement. The departments of Families, Education, Justice, Health and Seniors, Mental Health, Wellness and Recovery can reques t allocations based on ap - proved expenditures aligned with the federal and provincial health priorities.

And this kind of just leads into, you know, very proud of the fact that as a government we were, I think, one of the first jurisdictions to establish, kind of a–own ministry for mental health and wellness, recovery; that's a part of it. We're very proud of the fact that all that, you know, I guess, on a, kind of a yearly basis, it's–although it's a bilateral agreement over a number of years, that $23 m illion, we know that we've been allocated–and it'll come out in Public Accounts–but we had spent all that money. And, you know, who knows, there could be some potential for some additional supports.

You know, that's a part of it. The budget, for instance, we actually put an additional $5 million for Minister Gordon to go out and do some consultations in the community. And she will be making some announcements, I'm sure, in

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3633 the next number of weeks and longer, in terms of, you know, what additional supports that are there, but we're happy that we're able to allocate that full amount of money, and it'll be identified in Public Accounts and–because we know–one thing we've heard and we know from the pandemic, if you look at the suicide rates and mental health and addictions, people are having anxiety and are stressed specifically because of the pandemic. So we're using all that money and more. Mr. Wasyliw: The Government Fund Remediation– first of all, what is that?

I'm wondering if he could explain that. And then there's been a significant reduction in money from last year to this year, down from $92 million to, you know, 6.8. So I'm wondering if you could explain that. * (12:00) Mr. Fielding: So Budget 2020 included about $92.8 million in ISA to the one -time funding to remediate–or–special funds. So 16 special funds were remediated in 2020-21 and authority to remediate two funds were carried over in 2021. The two special funds for–were remediated in 2021-22 are abandoned reserve fund and quarry rehabilitation fund.

So basically what this was was, because of the ac- counting of this–if monies are taken in through some sort of fee or levy or whatever the deal is, they would normally go into this fund and then they would be allocated for different purposes. A nd each of the funded, kind of different –you know, kind of allo- cations and how they made the decisions of how that money, once it's brought in, would be flowed. The problem that we saw was that the money would be brought into the fund, and then because of the accounting–PSAS kind of accounting standards – you couldn't carry through the money into the future year.

So when government was looking at it as a core basis, like, you were able to cap for different –but the accounting rules have changed. So, even though you may bring in–I'm just giving an example–$30 million for some particular fund, if you don't spend all that money in the current year then it lapses, okay. So, you know, we as a government will bring in a whole bunch of money and it was sitting in an account, but if it wasn't spent by year end then it would lapse. And I don't think that was really the fault of any of the departments; it just was an accounting, kind of, change, I guess, if you will.

So what we actually did is we said we're going to get rid of these funds, but we're going to put it, actually, in the line departments. So you'll see in all these line departments money that we actually thought we would spend that year. So whatever the fund may be, there's–I forget how many there was. But there was a lot of these types of funds, 16 funds. Unless they spent it–like, we would say, well, what are you going to spend this year? They'd say $5 million. So we would actually put it in print. So that was a change in the last budget that we did.

It was put into print and then there was some money that was left over in ISA for the departments to come back and say how are we going to utilize the rest of that money, otherwise it lapses. So it was kind of an accounting thing that had to be done and, you know, it made some sense and also provides some reassurance. The way people, like, appropriate it or way people access the programs, really didn't change, and I –you know, you can ask each of the individual departments of how they may have had the appl ication process. I'm not as familiar with each of the funds and how they did that.

But, essentially, that process didn't change for any of the stakeholders that would access the groups. It just–now it's in print. It's in the year, what we actually think it's going to spend, and the rest of that money was housed in ISA and the 'partments' would come back and they would, you know, identify, you know, a way to spend that money. So that's the change. Mr. Wasyliw: The post -secondary job 'markmet ' alignment office: I'm wondering if you could explain, sort of, what the purpose and mandate of that office is. And it appears for the last couple of years it's been about $3 million allocation.

How much has that been spent out of the budget for the 2020-2021 fiscal year? Mr. Fielding: So, the item was carried forward from 2020-21, signalled the government's intention to spend in this area. Obviously with the pandemic that was happening, we became aware of the labour-force needs that were in place for o ur workers. And so we were able to establish a pretty substantial agreement, labour-force and workforce agreement fund with the federal government. So I think it was in the tune of $47 million, if I'm not mistaken.

And so that would fund different initia tives, but the labour-force agreement was more towards maybe getting people out of EIA or getting people, like maybe kids in care, providing some supports and training and stuff like that so they could enter into the

3634 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 workforce. And the other piece was the workforce agreements. Those are areas where there may be a need for not just always bigger appropriations, but businesses to access training and aspects, and so we've been able to work with the federal government to allocate about $47 million. So this work is ongoing with that department, and that will be one of the functions as we continue to in- vest this additional 47-and-some-odd million dollars.

I want –I'll clarify that number of what the actual agreement was, but I believe it was 47 to 43 million, somewhere right around there, for these types of initiatives. But that will be a leading indicator helping to address making sure that our labour -force needs in Manitoba meet, you know, kind of the demand of the economy. Mr. Wasyliw: How many people work in this office, and basically, what is it that they do? Mr. Fielding: So this is ongoing work that will happen.

Obviously, with the pandemic that happened last year, we wanted to make sure that there were supports in place, and so the agreement that we had established last year with the federal government, some money was spent through the labour -force and workforce agreements. Again, I think it was –I'm going to say $47 million; if I'm wrong, I'm sure my officials will let me know by the end of the session. I believe, off the top of my head, there was about 16 to 18 million dollars, somewhere around there, was established.

So this office will work in that capacity, you know, to make sure that the labour force needs, whether they're, you know, people coming out of maybe EIA or kids in care, those types of 'programmizing' is in place as well as kind of labour- force needs. So if Manitoba needs, for instance, some sort of labour force, we're making sure that people are trained appropriately. So this office will be set up to address these, you know, kind of co-ordinate this approach with the post- secondary education, as well as the federal officials, as well as the Minister and the ministries of Economic Development and Jobs. Mr.

Wasyliw: So this office isn't running? It's not operational? They're doesn't have staff? And if that's the case, when will it be staffed up and when will it be operational? * (12:10) Mr. Fielding: Yes, Mr. Chair, you know, we've allo- cated the money to the department. It's our intention that the office will be set up by the end of the fiscal year. Mr. Wasyliw: The Contingency for Youth Corrections Reform: I'm wondering if the minister can tell us what that is and why it isn't in the J ustice portfolio? Mr.

Fielding: This initiative is something that– brought forward through Justice and it is to set up a different program for youth corrections reform that's part of it, and so this office will be up and running by the end of the year. Mr. Wasyliw: Under this section, there is another $18-million-plus contingency fund that's up from the previous year. What is this contingency fund for? It seems that there's a number of staff that go along with it, and I'm wondering if you can tell us what this is all about. Mr.

Fielding: So this is contingency that's notionally allocated, and this kind of is something that's hap - pened on a yearly basis, so I'll go through, maybe, some examples. So, the first one is, you know, there's $10 million that's set aside for retirement or severance. It's very similar to what it was last year. So when departments that are unable to allocate retirement or severance costs from their existing resources, they can request an allocation from ISA. So it's money that's held back for such things as, again, retirements or severance.

There's things like employee pensions and other costs–I think it's about $5 million allocated, very similar to last year. This is for the potential increase in, kind of, salary -related liabilities as a result of actuarial valuations and other adjustments. So, you know, obviously, you get your evaluations from your actuarials just on pension funds and that sort, so it's a bit of a contingency built in, in case the numbers that we get back aren't the same. There's a flex fund, so there's about 45, you know, types of FTEs for a flex fund which are used as a con- tingency for –in your staffing requirements.

So, for example, 30 FTEs, and 626,000 were transferred from flex funds in 2020 related to the establishment of three new departments as a result of the January 2000 government reorganization. So, again, that's how we'd maybe pull some money over if there's some changes, so when Minister Gordon moved into her role, that would be there.

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3635 The only difference that I would say from the funds, if the member's going there, there is there's certain things that we provided, kind of a –we had money for a Central Services scoping fund–I think it's about $4 million–so we actually put that in the depart- ment. So it's in the department's Estimates as opposed to ISA. Same thing with $5 million for ICT scoping fund. Again, it was held centrally before. Now it's within the departments. And we also had, last year, about $20 million of unallocated dollars.

That's just, you know, if things happen throughout the year. So we didn't utilize that as much because we've got so much built into other contingencies that we have laid out, so there –that's– that really makes up the difference between the two funds. But–so it's a kind of a centralized fund that everyone can tap into if things change throughout the year from a department level, and they kind of apply centrally for the dollars. And that's kind of based on, you know, previous years, what we have done. Mr.

Wasyliw: Now, the government has allocated $40 million in enabling 'approshiations' every year back to 2018-2019 for the green fund. I wonder if the minister can tell us how much has been spent in each of those years, and can he give us, the committee, a cumulative total since 2018 of how much in total has actually been spent from the green fund. Mr. Fielding: I know our officials are just looking to get that information, but I do have some further information. I had mentioned that the Learning Fund, we would be abl e to provide the information. So in 2019 and '20, $1.1 million was allocated.

So that just kind of finishes the circle, I guess, if you will. I'm going to just–our officials are looking for that information for the next question, so I'm going to maybe just go back on mute here 'til I get the answers and then I can refer them the–to the. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Finance. Mr. Fielding: Mr. Chair, our officials are reviewing it. They are going to be able to get the answer, but, you know, just in the essence of time, maybe we can move on. If I get the answer before we close here in five minutes I'll provide it.

Otherwise I can provide it on Monday morning. [interjection] Oh, we do have the answer, I just–it's just going to take a bit of time to pull up. Mr. Wasyliw: Could the minister provide a detailed organization chart for Vital Statistics? * (12:20) Mr. Fielding: We certainly have the 2019–it's in the annual report, so we can provide that one if there's ability. There would be an ability, although this isn't really a enabling appropriations piece; it is more of a line department piece. I guess it's a standoff, I guess, if you will. But we would be able to provide that.

I don't think we have that right now. [interjection] It is available online, but we can provide that for the member. Mr. Wasyliw: How many full-time-equivalent posi- tions are there in Vital Statistics and how many are currently filled? Mr. Fielding: So, we will have to provide the infor - mation. You know, we were prepared obviously and got the information for Enabling Appropriations, so this isn't really in that. If it's the will of the member from Fort Garry, maybe he wants to re -ask the question when we get into the Finance section. I'd be more than willing to provide that information.

We don't have it right in front of us right now, but maybe we could, you know, just the essence of time, we could maybe go on to another question and we could provide that infor - mation when we go through the Finance Department. Mr. Wasyliw: Yes, that's fair enough. The Pallister budget has budgeted about $120 million in '20-21 to devolve a number of assets– Mr. Chairperson: I'd like–[interjection]–I'd like to ask the member when referring to–like, you had men- tioned the Pallister budget. That's not really the proper–you know, Pallister government budget. So, just to keep things in line. Mr. Wasyliw: Okay.

So the –it was budgeted last yea r for northern airports, $55 million; Manitoba Centennial Centre, 35; Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation, 30. Man. northern airports appears again this year; Manitoba Centennial Centre Corp. appears again this year. Were those funds actually spent and, sort of, what is the status on all that? Mr. Fielding: No, that–good question. So, the appro- priation was included in the 2020- 21 to offset the accounting charges related to the devolution of three

3636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 government assets. The devolution was only com - pleted for one of the three assets in 2021-22. Kind of a COVID thing; it wasn't– I want to say –was a huge priority but the, you know, there is –it was–there was a lot of things going on 2020- 21, resulting in the reduction of, you know, $30 million. The remaining of the fund is being carried over to 2021, so that's $55 million for the Northern Airports and Marine, so that's negotiations, discussions with Indigenous communities and leadership.

And the second, $35 million for the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation. The devolution of Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation was completed in 2020- 21. Excerpts from the budget, in fiscally responsible outcome and economic outlook, was on page 57. So that's, I think, what the member is referring to. So some have and some ha ven't, and mainly the reason why they weren't is, you know, because of everything that's going on with COVID. Mr. Wasyliw: Does the minister anticipate that the northern airports and the Manitoba Centennial Centre will be devolved this year?

And I assume, given his comments, that those two entities, their combined $90 million wasn't spent last year. Mr. Fielding: Yes, so, we announced that with Indigenous leadership. So, I understand–and I haven't been directly involved in the negotiations, but those are o ngoing. So we do anticipate both of these – devolution of these assets to happen in this fiscal year, yes. Mr. Wasyliw: In relation to the capital investment, internal service adjustments entry at 26.4, I'm just wondering if the minister can explain what these funds were for and how much actually flowed in the past year. Mr.

Fielding: I think the question was what we spent in 2020-21. So, that's a public accounts thing that will come out, obviously, in September. So, there was things like the resiliency pie ce. That was a, kind of, agreement so –with municipalities and, kind of, the metro region, I guess, if you will, and Idea Fund. So we'll be able to get some more information on that.

If the mem ber's interested in the future, like, what's in the budget, of the money, that's asso- ciated with things like IT –ICT projects, there's $15.4 million; Waverley West schools, $21.1 million; unallocated was $3.6 million; for total assets of $40 million. So that breaks down the capital assets of $40 million. The Idea Fund, again, $25 million. That's for a variety of different areas. And breaking up the restart capital, $113 million; highway infrastructure is about $107 million and park infrastructure restart about $6.2 million and Restart Capital Program is about $113 million, for a total of 178.

So that kind of identifies what we're looking to spend those monies on this year. Mr. Wasyliw: And again, I'm just curious why it's in internal service adjustments and that they're not, you know, put in the Infrastr ucture budget or elsewhere, some of the education capital budget, that kind of thing. Mr. Fielding: So yes, a lot of these are essentially funded, right. So the Idea Fund, for instance, right, all departments could apply for this. There wasn't –the teachers had some–Idea Fund had some money attached, but beyond, it was kind of a whole govern- ment as well .

So it was held centrally for that par - ticular 'reajon'. Same thing with the IT types of projects. Those were kind of centrally funded, whether you're in, you know, Infrastructure, whether you're in department of–you know, whatever the department is. They, you know, apply centrally for that. And the Manitoba restart, that's kind of the – I think it's over $500 million reallocated for, kind of, road projects and, you know, waterways projects. That was just allocated centrally for that. So most of them, again, were kind of highway related projects, but some were other areas. So we just held it centrally. Mr.

Wasyliw: In the 2020- 2021 budget, there was $100 million for emergency expenditures. You've done that again this year– Mr. Chairperson: Order. The hour being 12:30 p.m., committee rise. ROOM 255 FAMILIES * (10:00) Mr. Chairperson (Len Isleifson): Good morning, and will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates of

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3637 Families. As previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Ms. Danielle Adams (Thompson): On Wednesday, the minister kept referring to 5,000 child- care spaces that her government had created, but I just want to point out that the way she is counting these spaces is different than the way the previous government counted newly created spaces.

To the previous government, the newly created spaces meant funded spaces; however, this govern - ment is counting all spaces, including unfunded spaces, spaces that have played zero role–they played zero role in creating. In terms of funded spaces, there were 28,669 fully funded child-care spaces at the end of 2015-2016, and at the end of 2019- 2020, there were 30,927. That is only 2,200 spaces newly created, not 5,000. Can the minister provide the most recent number of funded child–centre- based child -care spaces in Manitoba? Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Families): Good morning, Mr.

C hair, and all members of the committee. It's great to see everyone here this morning on this Friday morning. So I just want to correct some of the mis - information that the member has put on the record; and, again, I'm not surprised that she's starting of f by putting more erroneous information on the record.

Let's keep in mind that this is the same member who, yesterday in the House, when talking about Bill 72–which is creating a separate, dignified program for the most severely disabled citizens –she referred to that as checking a box, which is incredibly insensitive to the many people who require and rely on this program and are–who are going to benefit from a program that we are creating. She is also someone who said that our govern- ment did no consultation on this, which–nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, in our first round of consultations, we had 500 online submissions and 140 people in attendance at five sessions across the province, including like hearing from many people in her own community; and then in our second round of consultation we had 490 online submissions and 66 attendees through five virtual sessions.

So, certainly, that is not what I would consider no consultation, and I would ask the member to check her speaking notes before putting false information on the record. * (10:10) So in relation to the child -care question that she had just asked, I can confirm for this committee that our government counts spaces in the exact same way that the former NDP government counted. There has been absolutely no change in the way that we count and record child- care spaces in the province of Manitoba. So she was wrong on that front. She was also wrong on the numbers.

So as of March of 2020, we had –our government had 34,700 licensed, funded spaces in the province and we added more spaces throughout the last fiscal year, and I'm just calculating those numbers right now. I'll have those numbers, in terms of how many we added in the last fiscal year, in short order, but I can als o share, then, Budget 2021, we have also committed to adding another 591 spaces in this upcoming fiscal year. So if you take what we've already –what we had, as of March of 2020, the 34,700 spaces, of course, that is more than the number that I had quoted earlier.

And, in fact, our government is continuing to move forward on creating more affordable, accessible child-care spaces in the province–more than the NDP ever did. Our five-year average is significantly higher than their five -year average in any period in the 17 years in which they were governing. And we know that we have a long way to go in terms of creating more child-care spaces in the province of Manitoba. We recognize that that work needs to happen.

We recognize that we had inherited a deficit in funded spaces in the province and we need to continue to move forward on funding more child-care spaces, but we certainly know that–the importance of this. And that is why will continue to do that work and we'll continue to count –we're maintaining th e consistency that –how child- care spaces have been funded in the province of Manitoba. Whether it was under an NDP government or whether it was under a PC government, it is being counted the same, and I certainly hope the member will take a moment to correct the record and apologize for that mis - information. Ms.

Adams: Can the minister provide me with the number of child- care co -ordinators currently in the province? * (10:20)

3638 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 Mr. Chairperson: Minister Squires, I believe you're muted. We cannot hear you. Ms. Squires: Pardon me. I thought I'd unmuted myself, but here we go. So just to provide further information to my previous answer, I can add– report to the committee that last year we created 737 newly funded spaces in fiscal '20-21 for a total of approximately 36,400 licensed, funded spaces in the province. And, of course, that doesn't include the 591 that Budget '21 has committed to.

In regards to our child- care quarters –co-ordi- nators, we have 28 in the province; three of them are specifically dedicated to the inclusion support program, which is a program that is incredibly bene - ficial for children who access child care with special needs. This is a program that is so important that our government is enshrining that in legislation. These are also the same–this is the same program that the member opposite voted against in committee. She voted against having inclusion support programs in child-care centres and having that in the legislation.

So I wonder if she is now going to take issue with the fact that we have three child -care co -ordinators that are specifically dedicated to ensuring services for children with special needs through the inclusion support program. Ms. Adams: I voted against the clause in Bill 47 because it doesn't go far enough. By forcing children to prove they need inclusion supports with a diag- nosis, this legislation excluded far too many children who may not have the time or accessibility to access such diagnosis at a young age. The minister and I discussed this at length and she knows how strongly I feel about this issue.

Can the minister please provide a breakdown with how many children the child-care co-ordinators–how many centres they oversee and where they are located? An Honourable Member: Point of order, Mr. Chair. Point of Order Mr. Chairperson: Point of order. Mr. Wiebe, on a point of order. Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): I guess it's–maybe it's a two-fold point of order.

First, I guess I would just remind all the members of the committee that time is very limited in terms of our time on Estimates, and while I understand there's certainly an opportunity for the minister to gather the facts, you know, I've been in this room now for quite some time and I think we've gotten through two questions since the time I've been in here. And so there's a concern about the amount of time that's being taken. The other point that I'd like to make, though, Mr. Chair, is that, you know, the –or the member for Thompson (Ms.

Adams) has been very clear about asking questions and obviously is expecting a factual and truthful answer. I'm concerned that when asked about the number of–or how the newly created child-care spaces are being counted, t he minister said there's absolutely no change in how they count spaces. We know, for sure, that if, you know, if the minister was to look in her own reports –her own annual report, she would know that those are un- funded spaces that are now counted alongside funded spaces. Now, this could have been just a misspeak by the minister, and I give her the opportunity to correct the record now.

And I under stand from the clerks' perspective that this is a dispute over the facts. So I guess I'm giving the minister an opportunity to just simply correct the record, to acknowledge the fact that in her own annual report there is now an asterisk that explains that unfunded spaces are counted alongside with those funded spaces. * (10:30) And, you know, last year we had to go to the Ombudsman to get the department to properly report those funded spaces, so it's now incumbent on the minister to properly communicate that to the committee. Mr. Chairperson: Would anyone else like to speak to the point of order?

So again, just–it is definitely a dispute over the facts. However, I will say that we–I agree that we are on a time frame; however, there is no designated time limit to come up with questions or answers, but there is in answering them, so–or asking the questions. So, there is no point of order, and we will continue. * * *

May 28, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3639 Ms. Squires: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for that clarification and that guidance. And I can appreciate my colleague from Concordia pointing out that we are on a limited time, and I certainly do believe that it is important that we do spend this time putting information on record. And that's why I believe that it's very –I concur with the member that words matter and facts matter, and that's why I've tried to impress upon my colleague when she's asking questions or when she's putting erroneous information on the record that I've had to correct her.

And I'd rather not be spending time correcting my critic for child care on–or on other areas of programming–on facts. But as long as misinformation is being put on the record, I will continue to correct that record, just so that the committee is aware of all the facts that are correct, and that is something that I'm committed to, and I will continue to do that. Just to sum up the deb ate back and forth and the sharing of information on that inclusion support program, the member perhaps doesn't know what the inclusion support program entails.

And so what she had voted against was a program that, in quotes, this program assists eligible child -care facilities by providing grants and supports, including resource materials, training and behavioural intervention services to ensure inclusive services, and to reduce or eliminate barriers so that children with a diverse range of abilities can ac tively participate in programming with their peers, allowing parents to work or participate in education and training. That is the definition from our bill. That is what she voted against.

And so I'm unclear what she is meaning when she says that there w ere eligibility requirements or something else that she took offence to in that specific definition in which she voted against. And so I feel that it's very important for me to read that definition into the record so the member can understand what it is that she specifically voted against, whether it's, you know, ensuring inclusive services to reduce or eliminate barriers so that children with a diverse range of abilities can actively participate in programming with their peers.

That is the provisions that we put in legislation that she voted against, so just to clarify for that. Another point of clarification: she had said yesterday that she is voting –or, one of the main concerns that she has with Bill 72–which, again, is dealing with providing a specia l income support program for people with disabilities –that she has concerns with

section 5.1. I would like to just share with her, before she goes ahead and votes against this clause, exactly what this clause entails. This is a

section that we are amendi ng to increase the dignity of programming– An Honourable Member: Point of order, Mr. Chair. Point of Order Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Adams, on a point of order. Ms. Adams: We have a limited time, and I asked the minister regarding how many child -care co -ordi- nators–where the child -care co -ordinators are in Manitoba and what–how many facilities they oversee. If the minister would like to discuss further Bill 72, I have no problems having that discussion with her any time. Send me the time and I will be there.

But if the minister could please answer my question so we could move on and continue this Estimates, instead of her continuously eating up time in answering these questions. If she could actually answer the questions I'm asking, that would be very appreciated. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Would anyone else like to speak to the point of order? So, again, it is not a point of order. It is a reminder that we are having a global discussion around issues with Families, and in a committee setting like this, the Chair cannot rule on content or quality of the answers. So it, again, is not a point of order. * * * Mr.

Chairperson: Minister Squires to conclude, please. Ms. Squires: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate your guidance. And I certainly do encourage the member to put factual information on the record in her questions and then I don't need to spend my time answering correcting the record so that she's aware o f the factual content and thereby wasting time, as her and the member for Concordia (Mr. Wiebe) has alleged. So, just to conclude what I was saying earlier, with the

section that she was taking offence to yesterday, which requires –currently, people with disabilities need to justify their disability every 90 days; that is every three months going back to a

3640 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2021 doctor to confirm that they still have a disability so that they can receive their benefits. That is the system that was maintained by the former NDP government. That is a system that we've heard loud and clear from many people with disabilities that is not only a waste of their time, it's potentially a waste of their doctor's time. And it's offensive to have someone with a severe and prolonged disability need to confirm their disability time and time again.

And so 5.1 of the–of Bill 72 will simply eliminate that requirement and that, unless someone with a severe and prolonged disability has a change in circumstance, they won't need to justify their dis - ability to anyone. And we certainly think that that is– that is a dignified provision and something that I'm incredibly committed to. And I hope the member will reflect on that before she goes and puts more erroneous information on the record and potentia lly votes against something that many people with disabilities in the province is asking for.

So to answer her question that she wanted to know about child- care co -ordinators and–in the province, I mean, as the member knows, we have nearly–as of last fiscal year, we had nearly 1,200 licensed child-care facilities in the province– Mr. Chairperson: The minister's time has expired. Ms. Adams: Can the minister provide a breakdown of what was spent on child- care inclusion support program in 2021? * (10:40) Ms. Squires: So, as I was saying in my previous answer, we do have 1,172 licensed child- care facilities as of last March 2020.

And, of course, as I had previously stated, we have 28 child- care co - ordinators. So we know that each child- care co - ordinator oversees approximately 47 licensed faci - lities; these are a combination of home-based licensed facilities as well as centres that they oversee, and it is divided by region.

So in regards to the inclusion support program, as I'd also stated in –into Hans ard–and if the member wants to review Hansard, I was very detailed in my answer yesterday about the inclusion support program and how our policy is, is that any child who presents at a child -care centre and requires that service, they receive that service. And so, every year, we have a budgeted number and then we ultimately will spend what is required, depending on the service. And so, some years, obviously, it goes up and some years there may not be as much of a demand.

Last year, we did go overbudget because we did have more children coming into the program and receiving those –that assistance through the inclu- sion support program. And so our expenditure for the '19-20 fiscal year was $15.5 million. And, of course, it is reported in the annual report every year. The '20-21 tab–or figure hasn't been tabulated yet. We don't have an accrual of all that was expended in the last fiscal year, and, of course, that work is being undertaken right now and will be reported in our annual repo

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	42-3-70c
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	42nd 3rd hansardpdf 70c.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1d5ffa8a5d36bc38dee3e044ab54ff5af9b9c5ec

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