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October 21, 2021

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. L No. 25

The

House met at 1:30 p.m.

SPEAKER (Bennett):

Order, please!

Admit

strangers.

Before

we begin, I’d like to welcome Mr. Dougald Russell, who is viewing our broadcast

in the Speaker’s boardroom.

Mr.

Russell is a Korean War veteran and is the subject of a Members’ statement this

afternoon.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

Statements by

Members

SPEAKER:

Today, we will hear Members’ statements from the hon. Members for the Districts

of Placentia - St. Mary’s, Humber - Bay of Islands, Mount Pearl - Southlands,

Ferryland and Bonavista.

The hon.

the Member for Placentia - St. Mary’s.

S. GAMBIN WALSH:

Speaker, there are 34 Community Youth Networks throughout our province funded by

the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. Their inception resulted from a

need to decrease barriers to education and employment and increase the quality

of life for young people.

Prior to

joining the Community Youth Network’s umbrella, the Placentia CYN operated as

the P4 Youth Centre. The youth initiative was originally formed in 1994 by a

group of parent volunteers. Through fundraising efforts and volunteerism, this

centre flourished until 2001. At that time, CYNs were forming across the

province and the P4 Youth Centre became a satellite of the Splash Centre in

Harbour Grace. This allowed Placentia to have a full-time employee.

In 2012,

the P4 Youth Centre became a CYN hub. They engaged 12- to 18-year-olds, but also

include community programs for families as well as employment and career

services for young adults up age 29.

The

centre offers a number of programs such as Freedom, an educational program about

independent living. This program was developed to help ease the transition from

high school to post secondary and the workforce.

For

additional information on programs offered by the Placentia Community Youth

Network, visit their Facebook site at

www.facebook.com/cynplacentia .

Thank

you.

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Humber - Bay of Islands.

E. JOYCE:

I’m very pleased today to recognize a recent recipient of the Newfoundland and

Labrador 2021 Seniors of Distinction Award, my good friend and neighbour,

Patrick W. Moore.

Pat

lives in Curling and has been a long-time volunteer in the Curling and Corner

Brook area. He has been a member of the Knights of Columbus for over 45 years

and at a young 80 years of age, he is the longest-serving member of the Bay of

Islands Search and Rescue with 29 years of service and has been instrumental in

bringing search and rescue to the level it is today.

Pat is

well known throughout the community for his contribution to his neighbours and

to families beyond his communities. Whether it be involvement with an

organization or his personal contribution, providing Christmas hampers to a

family in need or shovelling his neighbour’s driveways, Pat is always there

showing the true spirit of giving.

I ask

all Members to join me in congratulating Pat Moore on this well-deserved

recognition and thank him for his many years of service.

Proud of

you, old buddy.

Thank

you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl - Southlands.

P. LANE:

Thank you, Speaker.

I would

like to take this opportunity to congratulate all the community-minded citizens

across our province who put their names forward in the recent municipal

election. As everyone in this hon. House would know, public service is truly a

calling and it’s encouraging to see so many people step up and offer themselves

this time around.

As the

Member for Mount Pearl - Southlands, I would particularly like to congratulate

the newly elected councils in both St. John’s and Mount Pearl. In particular, I

would like to congratulate Carl Ridgeley on being elected as the new councillor

for Ward 5, which includes our shared jurisdictions of Southlands, South Brook

and Galway. I look forward to working with him in growing and enhancing this

amazing part of the capital city.

Likewise, Mount Pearl is my home, the place I dearly love and so I’m very

excited to work with our new council in advancing the goals and objectives of

our city.

Finally,

I would be remiss if I didn’t congratulate my daughter, Chelsea Lane, on being

elected to our city council in Mount Pearl. As a father, I couldn’t possibly be

more proud.

Thank

you, Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Ferryland.

L. O’DRISCOLL:

Thank you, Speaker.

Today, I

would like to recognize Charles Luther and Melvin Sutton for their work in

raising funds for Daffodil Place.

Daffodil

Place is operated by the Canadian Cancer Society and is available to clients and

their caregivers who must travel to St. John’s for cancer treatment.

September 22 to 24, Charles Luther and Melvin Sutton, two men who were born and

raised in Trepassey ran 147 kilometres to raise cancer awareness as well as

raise money for Daffodil Place. During their run, they were successful in

raising $20,000.

They

decided to run the race in memory of Charles’s friend, Jamie Hynes who passed

away June 21 at the age of 45 from multiple myeloma.

The

death of a friend or family member is always sad; however, the event had a

positive spin by raising awareness and funds which will help so many families

who are affected by cancer, as well it brought some energy and excitement back

in to the town along the Southern Shore and especially Trepassey.

Speaker,

I ask all my colleagues in this House to join me in congratulating Charles

Luther and Melvin Sutton on their successful fundraiser in support of Daffodil

Place.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Bonavista.

C. PARDY:

Thank you, Speaker.

It is an

honour to celebrate the extensive and exemplary service of Dougald Russell,

affectionately named Doug, who has dedicated a significant portion of his life

serving his country and the community of Port Union.

Doug

joined the 3 RCR Canadian army in November 1951 and was involved with the Korean

conflict for three years, returning in November 1954. He was presented with the

Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal.

Doug is

currently the only Korean vet living in Trinity Bay North. In 1954, Doug joined

the Royal Canadian Legion Branch 16 for which he remains a member today, 67

years of service and counting.

Doug was

a member of the Port Union Council for several years, working to assure historic

Port Union remains prosperous. As deputy mayor in 1986, he was instrumental in

seeing the Sir William F. Coaker bridge was replaced. His legendary meeting

underneath the bridge with then MHA Charlie Brett was a determining factor, a

story which I look forward to telling to this House when the opportunity

presents. Masterfully orchestrated by Mr. Russell.

I ask

the Members of the 50th House of Assembly to join me in celebrating the

outstanding lifetime of service from Mr. Doug Russell of Port Union.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

Statements by Ministers.

Statements by

Ministers

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture.

D. BRAGG:

Thank you, Speaker.

Today at

Dalhousie University Faculty of Agriculture, two farmers from this province are

being inducted into the Atlantic Agriculture Hall of Fame to recognize their

contributions to this industry. Gerard Cormier of Codroy Valley is the inductee

for 2021, and the late Raymond Eveleigh of Comfort Cove is the honoree for 2020.

Gerard

is a fifth-generation farmer working the farm his great-grandfather established

in 1852. The family business expanded in 1963 to include a dairy operation and,

in 2004, the dairy farm merged with Chaffey Farm to become one of the largest

dairy operations in Eastern Canada.

Speaker,

along with his work on the farm, Gerard has been a dedicated advocate for

Newfoundland and Labrador farmers and producers. Among his many achievements, he

helped form the NL Milk Marketing Board, and served on the Crop and Livestock

Insurance Board, Dairy Farmers of Canada and the Canadian Milk Supply Management

Committee. His guidance and support continue to be valuable resources to the

farming community.

The late

Raymond Eveleigh of Comfort Cove cleared his first piece of land in Burn Cove at

the age of 18. Under his leadership, the farm expanded from vegetable production

to include fruit, sheep and cows. Triple E Farms carries the logo “Pride of the

Burn,” a nod to the place where Raymond cleared his first patch of land. Nearly

a century later, Triple E Farms is one of the largest vegetable farms in the

province, and Mr. Eveleigh and his family hold a well-earned reputation for

excellence in agriculture.

Speaker,

please join me in thanking these trailblazers, and all farmers, for their

dedication to building Newfoundland and Labrador’s agriculture sector.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Exploits.

P. FORSEY:

Thank you, Speaker.

I want

to thank the minister for an advance copy of his statement.

We, the

Official Opposition, congratulate Mr. Gerard Cormier of the Codroy Valley and

the late Raymond Eveleigh of Comfort Cove on their induction into the Atlantic

Agricultural Hall of Fame.

Mr.

Cormier was an advocate for dairy farms in this province and was instrumental in

founding of the NL Milk Marketing Board. His dedication to dairy farming in our

province is unheralded. His guidance is still valued in the farming community

today. He is the voice of growth of dairy farming in our province.

Mr.

Eveleigh spent his life in farming, growing a vegetable farm to include fruit,

sheep and cows. Raymond is known for excellence in farming and his family

carries on this strong tradition today.

salute these two legends of the agriculture industry in our province and we

salute the families of those men who continue their legacies.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Third Party.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Speaker.

I, too,

thank the minister for an advance copy of his statement.

We join

in commending trailblazers such as Mr. Cormier and Mr. Eveleigh, as well as all

food producers in our province, for helping getting food on our store shelves

and tables. They are truly indispensable in this effort and farming is not an

easy job to take on.

However,

government can go one step further in getting that food on tables of families

and building demand for local products by legislating a livable minimum wage so

that all people – all people – of this province can enjoy healthy, local food.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

Further statements by

ministers?

Oral

Questions.

Oral Questions

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

D. BRAZIL:

Speaker, our offices continue

to hear of lengthy delays for cardiac surgery in our province. The Premier

responded yesterday by talking about how much health care costs. He’s putting a

price on people’s lives.

Does the

Premier now know how many people have died while awaiting cardiac surgery in our

province?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER A. FUREY:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of

all, let me express sincere condolences to anyone who’s passed away as a result

of long wait-lists in any capacity. Unfortunately, I know they’re not isolated.

But what

I do know is that we need to use situations like these, Mr. Speaker, and not

ignore them, but to own them; to try to reconcile them to the best of our

abilities; but, more importantly, to create a collective, pluralistic empathy

throughout this House, to harness that empathy and change it to energy that

drives and fuels us to have the courage to create the system that we need to

ensure, above all else, that we are creating a system for a healthier

Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

D. BRAZIL:

Thank you, Speaker.

totally agree that the House needs to have empathy, but also we need to have

solutions to ensure that the people are safe in our province and have access to

proper health care.

Yesterday the Premier did not have any idea of how many people were on the

wait-list for cardiac surgery. Has he been able to find out what the wait-list

is now for surgery?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

I’d like

to echo, from my own personal experience in a previous career, how difficult it

can be for patients and their families when they are waiting for procedures, no

matter what the reason.

response to the Member’s question, I can inform the House that there are 193

people on the cardiac surgery wait-list; currently, 121 of those are within the

benchmark period of time. For the further benefit of the House, over the course

of recent months, we have lost 107 procedures due to COVID. We are in a much

better position than other provinces where their wait-list and backlog is 3½

years, Mr. Speaker. I have a meeting again with Eastern Health on Monday to

address these and some other concerns.

Thank

you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

D. BRAZIL:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Better

than other provinces doesn’t help the patients who are now waiting for those

interventions that are life saving for them.

Yesterday the Minister of Children, Seniors and Social Development said, and I

quote: I’m not aware of any reported cases where ER personnel cannot respond.

And further said, and I quote: If there was a crisis, it certainly doesn’t

prevail now.

Does the

Premier agree with this statement?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER A. FUREY:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I’ve

said before in this House earlier this week, it is a crisis for those who don’t

have a family doctor, it is a crisis for those who can’t find an ambulance and

it is a crisis for those who are struggling on long wait-lists. Believe me; I’ve

had to deliver that news to people. It’s a crisis for the front-line providers

who are working extra shifts and pulling their hair out. We recognize it’s a

crisis.

I’m not

caught up with semantics; I’m caught up with solutions. That’s why we created

the Health Accord NL to drive those long-term solutions. But we recognize,

equally, that it’s important for short-term solutions for those people in

crisis, which is why the Minister of Health and Community Services just earlier

this week provided some short-term plans to help while we’re waiting for the

report.

By the

way, we’re ahead of the rest of the provinces in recognizing this and launching

the Health Accord NL to come up with long-term solutions, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

D. BRAZIL:

Speaker, the Minister of

Children, Seniors and Social Development disagreed that emergency responders

cannot respond to calls saying: They can always respond, eventually. I suggest

the minister speak to the Member for Cape St. Francis who had a constituent wait

45 minutes for private ambulance to travel from one side of the Northeast Avalon

to the other because no ambulance was available from Eastern Health.

Premier,

why do you continue to support your minister who is choosing to ignore the

crisis facing the people of this province?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER A. FUREY:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly, the government has recognized that there are problems in the health

care system and we’re not ignoring them, we’ve come up a really robust plan to

come up with long-term solutions. We can’t revert to the mean, I recognize that

there are significant individualistic crisis throughout the system.

What we

have been tasked with in this House is to have the courage to change the system

long term, that is not going to happen overnight, Mr. Speaker. We also recognize

– as specific in the

preamble – there are issues with the ambulance services.

That is part of the Health Accord NL, but, in addition, we recognize that there

are short-term implications for patients waiting for ambulances, which is why

the Minister of Health and Community Services attempted to address that in the

short term by adding new ambulances to the road, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

D. BRAZIL:

Speaker, I do have to

acknowledge that you can’t solve and issue if you don’t acknowledge it exists.

If you have ministers that don’t acknowledge an issue exists, it’s going to be

very hard to solve that issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

D. BRAZIL:

Premier, this same minister,

while Deputy Minister of Health, said, and I quote: We don’t have as productive

of a nursing workforce as we should.

I ask

the Premier: Does he agree with the minister that our nursing crisis can be

fixed if our nurses just work harder?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER A. FUREY:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I

have said on the floor of this House and in public many times before nurses are

the heart and soul of our health care system, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

PREMIER A. FUREY:

I’ve worked alongside them

and they are some of the finest individuals I’ve ever worked with in my entire

career. We recognize the value they bring to the system but we equally recognize

how stressed they are.

We’ve

sat down with the Registered Nurses’ Union, with Ms. Yvette Coffee, and we’ve

had discussions about how to fix some of the issues they’re facing.

The

reality is there is no short-term fix. We need to be looking at strategies to

elevate the conversation so that we’re not continuing to have these

conversations over and over again, Mr. Speaker. They recognize that a

collaborative approach is an appropriate one, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

D. BRAZIL:

Speaker, we all agree –

particularly on this side of the House – the value and the importance of nurses

and all of our health professionals in our health care system.

Yesterday, your minister ignored the fact that doctors are leaving over the

crisis here saying doctors have always left, suggesting this systemic problem

does not need attention. This is the same minister, while Deputy Minister of

Health, who said that there are too many nurses and doctors in the province.

Premier,

do you agree with your minister that the province has too many doctors and

nurses?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER A. FUREY:

I can tell you one thing, Mr.

Speaker, this doctor hasn’t left and he is staying here to address the problem.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

Order,

please!

D. BRAZIL:

We acknowledge that this

doctor has taken on a new role. Now, we ask this doctor to use his skillset to

solve the problems that are facing the people of this province when it comes to

health care in Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

D. BRAZIL:

Speaker, we have a health

care system facing crisis. At the same time, we have a Health Minister in

denial. We have a Finance Minister threatening doctors. We have a CSSD Minister

spreading misinformation about the doctors concerned. All while we have a

Premier with his hands tied.

I ask

the Premier: Why do you allow such dysfunction in your Cabinet on the most

critical issue in Newfoundland and Labrador?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER A. FUREY:

Mr. Speaker, my hands are not

tied. We’ve launched the Health Accord NL last year, ahead of all provinces,

recognizing the significant issues facing the health care system. That’s not in

denial at all. In fact, that’s recognizing the problem; that’s looking for

solutions to the problem.

Recognizing the problem is only part one. Driving solutions is part two, three

and four. Those are the sentences that come next. The Opposition has easy

questions but no solutions, Mr. Speaker. We have solutions.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Harbour Main.

H. CONWAY OTTENHEIMER:

Speaker, yesterday, the

Minister of Justice told reporters the workplace review of the RNC will be

taking place virtually, with the consultant not expected to travel to

Newfoundland and Labrador, with interviews taking place over Zoom or Skype.

I ask

the minister: How can interpersonal trust between the reviewer and the

interviewees be built without even a face-to-face meeting?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Justice and Public Safety.

J. HOGAN:

Thank you for the question,

Speaker.

The

Member opposite does have it correct, that is what I said to the media

yesterday. Unfortunately, she left out the second part of what I said to the

media yesterday is that if the people and the individuals who are speaking to

the reviewer feel that it’s necessary to do a face-to-face meeting, of course,

that reviewer will come to Newfoundland and Labrador, meet with them

face-to-face to have these serious discussions to ensure that the public is safe

and that the public has trust in the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. That’s

what’s important here.

We do

have technology to assist people to do meetings nowadays and there’s a reason

for that, it’s COVID. We want to make sure everybody is safe, but, if it’s

necessary, she will travel to Newfoundland and Labrador, the department will

fund her travel here and her stay.

We will

make sure we get this right because it’s in the interest of the public.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Harbour Main.

H. CONWAY OTTENHEIMER:

Speaker, if the minister

truly wants a review that gets to the bottom of these serious issues this has to

be right, I agree.

I thank

the Minister of Justice for releasing the terms of reference but these terms of

reference for the review are really nothing more than four sentences. There’s no

specific timeline. There’s no reference to any of the allegations that have come

forward over the last number of months.

While I

agree we shouldn’t force victims to testify, does the minister believe these

allegations can be taken seriously and dealt with if this review does not have

even a mandate to consider them?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Justice and Public Safety.

J. HOGAN:

Thank you, Speaker, and thank you for the question.

First of

all, I’ve said it before and I will say it again, I will not force any woman who

has an allegation that she’s been sexually harassed or sexually mistreated to

come forward, publicly, and discuss that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

J. HOGAN:

I’m not interested in forcing people to be re-victimized if they don’t want to

do that. It’s a personal choice, an individual choice, and I leave it to that

individual to deal with that through mechanisms that are available to him and

her, including the Serious Incident Response Team and the Public Complaints

Commission of the RNC.

Second

of all, this is an open-ended mandate to the reviewer at the RNC because I,

again, don’t want to dictate to the officers and the civilians at the RNC about

what they can say and what they should say and limit them in any way. It’s open

ended for that reason, so any and all issues that exist at the RNC can be

discussed with the reviewer.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Stephenville - Port au Port.

T. WAKEHAM:

Thank you.

Speaker,

it is no wonder the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association have suspended

negotiations. Yesterday, the Minister of Children, Seniors and Social

Development questioned the validity and integrity of the Newfoundland and

Labrador Medical Association on the doctor shortage saying: Nowhere near the

number of 99,000, no matter what way we do the math.

I ask

the minister: How can you bargain in good faith when one of your colleagues has

a blatant disrespect for the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board.

S. COADY:

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I think

I’ll say it again; we value and appreciate the work of our health care

providers. I know the Premier said it earlier, but I think it’s worth repeating.

It’s very important to all of us to recognize the hard work of doctors, nurses,

paramedics and all of those engaged in the field.

As I’ve

said repeatedly in this House, we’re sitting down with the Newfoundland and

Labrador Medical Association. We’ve presented payment

schedule review, we’ve

presented family practice renewal funding; we’ve talked about rural retention

bonus.

Mr.

Speaker, we really do recognize and realize that we have a challenge with pay

for family doctors. We want to sit down with the NLMA and get back to the table.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Stephenville - Port au Port.

T. WAKEHAM:

Speaker, everything the minister said is wonderful, except we left out one

thing; she’s already put a cap on their salaries. She doesn’t want to talk about

any new monies, so that’s part of the problem.

Speaker,

the Minister of CSSD asked people to consider the source of the information on

the doctor shortage.

response, the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association showed its source,

an independent polling firm commissioned by the association.

So I ask

the minister: Is the Minister of CSSD helping negotiations by spreading

misinformation?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board.

S. COADY:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

thought I was pretty clear in my first response. We have sat down with the

Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association on payment schedules, on blended

payment models and on rural retention. We’ve talked about family practice

retention. We’ve put forward proposals on that.

I would

ask the NLMA to come back to the table. We realize that we have a challenge with

pay for family doctors and we want to talk about it at the table.

Thank

you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Stephenville - Port au Port.

T. WAKEHAM:

Speaker, in response to the

comments made by the Minister of CSSD, the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical

Association has shown its homework and proven the minister wrong about the

doctors concerns.

Will the

minister stand in his place and apologize to the Newfoundland and Labrador

Medical Association?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Children, Seniors and Social Development.

J. ABBOTT:

Speaker, thank you for the

opportunity to respond.

certainly want to recognize, as the Premier said, that many individuals in the

province are challenged with finding a primary care physicians, but in terms of

my contribution to the debate yesterday, I still stand behind what I said. My

source is independent, and that the NLMA also have their point of view, I stand

by what I said and that’s all I can say at this point.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN:

Thank you, Speaker.

It’s

unfortunate that people cannot recognize their wrongs and just simply apologize.

Speaker,

the doctors in our province are calling out for help and this government is

refusing to listen. In an

article published by

The Telegram , Dr. Sarah

Tulk says she feels like a member of the orchestra on the

Titanic , and I quote “…

focusing on my job to distract from the fact that primary care in NL is slowly

slipping underneath the waves.”

I ask

the minister: Does he agree with this warning from a local doctor?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board.

S. COADY:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

I’ll,

again, repeat myself. We have been presenting proposals to the Newfoundland and

Labrador Medical Association to address these concerns. Blended payment models,

family practice renewal funding, rural retention bonuses, I can go on naming the

different proposals that have been put before the NLMA.

Mr.

Speaker, we realize that we have a challenge on pay for family physicians. We

recognize that. We realize it, that’s why we’re presenting these proposals.

The best

thing I can say is that we ask that the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical

Association come back to the table so that we can resume negotiations.

Thank

you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN:

Thank you, Speaker.

appreciate the response; however, my question was specific to doctors and those

who are giving their life experiences through the media to us.

This

same doctor writes that family doctors are “burnt out and demoralized” and

facing “the worst pay in all of Canada.”

She

writes that doctors in our province are telling others to stay away and even our

family medicine graduates are not staying here due to the conditions they face.

She says she “didn’t go into medicine to tell patients, ‘I can’t help you’.”

I ask

the minister: Does this sound like the words of someone facing a crisis?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

We have

been listening to our physicians. We acknowledge that some of them are

particularly stressed. Our solution is at the negotiating table, because in

there is the key. The key to burnout, the key to overload are collective,

collaborative care teams. We have seen these work. We’ve seen these

revolutionize the working conditions of all of the practitioners involved there,

because the work is shared and people work to the best and interesting end of

their spectrum. So you have family doctors; you have nurse practitioner; you

have pharmacists; you have optometrists, potentially; wound care nurse and

diabetic educators. It’s the one door, one-stop shop, the right care, right

place at the right time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN:

Thank you, Speaker.

I think

in the minister’s mandate letter it talks about listening to the lived

experiences. I’m appalled to here the words: some of them, again, which we heard

yesterday, which implies a small number.

Speaker,

the doctor says we can’t get doctors to settle in our province with – and this

is her quote – “even the most delectable of fruit baskets.” She warns that

without better compensation local doctors will be looking up the number for

recruiters in Nova Scotia. Something we on this side of the House and the

Medical Association have repeatedly warned about.

I ask

the minister: Will you stop your government from dismissing the concerns of

family doctors and finally listen to their concerns?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board.

S. COADY:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

I do

appreciate lived experience. I think it’s important for all of us to bring our

lived experience to this House of Assembly.

I will

say that we have presented issues to address the retention and recruitment

issues that we see within our family physicians. We’ve put down plans for

payment

schedule review; we’ve talked about leave benefits, rural retention

bonuses and family practice renewal funding.

Again,

I’ll say that we recognize there’s a challenge with payment for family doctors.

The best place that we can have a further discussion on this and make

improvements to it would be in negotiations with the Newfoundland and Labrador

Medical Association.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Exploits.

P. FORSEY:

Speaker, our office is

hearing from residents all over the province who need someone to advocate for

them. They are calling us because the Liberal government is in denial. I’ve

heard from residents of St. Alban’s who are concerned that for the past two

years there are many examples of emergency services diverted to Harbour Breton

or Grand Falls-Windsor.

How can

the minister justify putting residents on the South Coast in danger because of

their emergency room being unstaffed?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

Rural

family medicine, rural emergency care has always been an area of great challenge

in terms of recruitment. I sympathize with those people who are concerned that

they can’t get the care that they need when they need it, but Central Health, in

that particular example, have contingency plans in place for both locums and

virtual care.

The fix

here is recruitment. We announced a package on Monday that totalled some $30

million. In there is a provincial HR plan for health care providers, a

provincial recruitment and retention office and significant investment in new

family medicine graduates, Mr. Speaker. That’s the solution until the Health

Accord comes on stream.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Exploits.

P. FORSEY:

The minister seems to have

solved a lot of problems on Monday, Mr. Speaker.

Recently, the emergency room in Lewisporte moved to virtual care because of

doctor shortages. Central Health advised people to proceed to the next nearest

emergency room.

If our

emergency rooms are not open, operational and staffed with the needed medical

staff, how can the people of this province have any confidence that the help

will be there when they need it?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

Emergency room care, rural family medicine is challenged at the moment with

various stresses, not least of which is COVID and not least of which is

retirement. Central Health have contingency plans in place. There are first

responders, there is virtual care and there is backup from the regional referral

hubs.

The fix

for this is recruitment and retention and, to develop my previous answer, the

provincial recruitment and retention office will be key to addressing issues

around physicians, as well as other health care providers. A needs assessment

and a physician HR plan will inform that. We’re working on it, Mr. Speaker.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Grand

Falls-Windsor - Buchans.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The

Liberal Members opposite know that health care is in a crisis, even if their

ministers won’t admit it.

Central

Health has hired a recruitment agency to help physicians. How many physicians

have been found for Central communities? If we’re speaking about we are ahead of

other provinces by leaps and bounds, why are our very own doctors going to those

other provinces to work?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

The

patchwork approach to recruitment and retention has been necessary and this is

now going to be solved, in the medium term, with the provincial Recruitment and

Retention Office. We have, in the past, used recruitment agencies to provide

locum cover.

The key

now is that all of us get together in a collaborative, team-based way to sell

our communities as places to work and places to live. It is not just about

recruiting a doctor; it is about attracting a family. The Minister of Finance

speaks about the importance of hearing what the NLMA say and them coming back to

the negotiations after they sought their members’ input.

We are

making progress, Mr. Speaker. It is slower than I would like –

SPEAKER:

Order, please!

The

Member’s time has expired.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you.

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Grand

Falls-Windsor - Buchans.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Speaker.

We see

lots of nods across the way, but it is about time that you all stand up and

speak for your own constituents as well. It isn’t just Central Newfoundland and

Labrador where we are hearing concerns from residents of the province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh!

SPEAKER:

Order, please!

C. TIBBS:

We have been receiving calls

from St. Anthony where residents have to resort to protesting –

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh!

SPEAKER:

Order, please!

The hon.

the Member for Grand Falls-Windsor - Buchans.

C. TIBBS:

We’ve been receiving calls

from St. Anthony where residents had to resort to protesting in this last summer

about staffing shortages in health care.

I ask

the Member for St. Barbe - L’Anse aux Meadows: Is there a health care crisis in

St. Anthony? Is it a crisis as well?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

Recruitment in rural areas is a challenge; that is certainly the case. We have

responded to that in the medium term by putting in place a provincial

Recruitment and Retention Office. St. Anthony has a wonderful facility. I worked

there for 4½ years and it is a great place to raise a family.

The key

is to get all the players, all the stakeholders, to approach recruitment and

retention as not simply a government initiative, not simply a regional health

authority initiative, but we need the Members opposite out there to help calm

the noise and advocate on behalf of this province, instead of running it down

every five minutes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Placentia West - Bellevue.

J. DWYER:

Thank you, Speaker.

I’m

hearing from many of my constituents who are raising concerns about the

deterioration of services and the future of the Burin Peninsula Health Care

Centre. Specifically, residents are concerned about the future of obstetrics,

surgical services and physiotherapy, in particular.

Will the

minister commit to insuring these services are not removed from the Burin

Peninsula Health Care Centre?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

The

Health Accord NL is looking at a plan to reinvent, reboot and renovate the

health care system in this province to make it sustainable. Doing what we have

always done and expecting a different result is not going to get us anywhere. I

wait, with interest, the input from the communities involved to Health Accord NL

and really look forward to their final report.

They

have done a wealth of work. They’ve spent a lot of time, and I’d like to take

this opportunity to thank both co-chairs as well as the teams that have been

involved. We will then be in a position to do our due diligence about their

recommendations.

Thank

you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Third Party.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Speaker.

The

Health Accord’s interim report states that, since 1981, there has been a 6 per

cent increase in social spending and a 232 per cent increase in health care

spending. A 2011 study by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives into the

cost of poverty in British Columbia concluded that raising the income levels of

the poorest 20 per cent would save that province’s health care system 6.7 per

cent in spending annually. In terms of our current health budget, that would

save the Newfoundland health care system almost $217 million annually.

I ask

the Premier: Will his government commit to implementing a minimum living wage

and increasing the level of income support for those who depend on it?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

It is

the passion of both of the co-chairs of Health Accord NL to address the broader

determinants of wellness – the so-called social determinants of health. This

phase of their consultation opens this month, and I would encourage all Members

of this House to provide input. Now the Progressive Conservative Party has a

member on the team; perhaps they will have a direct channel to be able to do

that, too, now.

From our

point of view, the wellness, the more holistic approach to making this province

the healthiest it can be by 2031 will be determined by addressing social

determinants of health, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Third Party.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Speaker.

Last

night, the Minister of Children, Seniors and Social Development went to great

pains to introduce an amendment to the Opposition’s private Member’s resolution

that only some individuals are experiencing a health crisis.

Would

the minister please quantify “some” for us and to the people of our province?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Children, Seniors and Social Development.

J. ABBOTT:

Thank you, Speaker, for the

opportunity to respond.

As I

said, I think, in the debate yesterday, we certainly recognize that there are

quite a number of people in the province now looking for a family physician. I

think the substance of the discussion was around what that quantum is. There is

a different piece of research out there that suggests a certain number of

people.

The

point is that the government addressing those issues, looking to make sure that

the services are provided and that we will bring that gap down significantly

over the next couple of years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Third Party.

J. DINN:

It sounds, Mr. Speaker, that

the minister really doesn’t have a number and doesn’t know what he’s talking

about.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

J. DINN:

The NLMA issued a press

release outlining exactly how it arrived at the figure of 98,000 – fairly

transparent.

I ask

the minister: Was his amendment and comments last night nothing more than a

blatant attempt on behalf of his government to mislead and minimize the doctor

shortage?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Children, Seniors and Social Development.

J. ABBOTT:

Speaker, thank you once

again.

Certainly not intending and wanting to mislead, by any stretch. There is a

difference of view. The NLMA have done their work, paid by them, to produce a

report. What I relied on was independent information provided by Statistics

Canada. Consequently, there is a difference, and I stick by that research.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Labrador West.

J. BROWN:

Thank you, Speaker.

I ask

the minister about MTAP over and over and he continues to defend it.

But I

ask this of him, and the Premier: As health care professionals who have sworn

the Hippocratic oath to do no harm, are they okay that under this government

people in Labrador are not able to make it to appointments or receive timely

care because they cannot afford to travel to St. John’s because of such a broken

and limited program?

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Health and Community Services.

J. HAGGIE:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker.

We do

recognize on this side of the House that medical transportation is an issue.

From our point of view, we have the two programs. We would love to be able to

revamp some of them completely, but quite frankly we have made significant

improvements to the Medical Transportation Assistance Program – the

reimbursement, the cost-defrayal mechanism that is available to everybody.

We do,

for Income Support clients, completely cover their travel. We’re also working,

for example, with provincial airlines, who have made a very good offer about

streamlining their processes for booking flights with ours for people who come

from Labrador. And I look forward to being able to make an announcement perhaps

in the not-too-distant future.

Thank

you.

SPEAKER:

The time for Question Period

has expired.

The hon.

the Government House Leader.

S. CROCKER:

Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

During

Question Period, under

section 49, the Leader of the Official Opposition in a

question stated that the Minister of Finance threatened doctors.

Mr.

Speaker, I find that to be inappropriate language for the Member opposite to

look at the minister and say that she threatened doctors. I would hope that the

Member would withdraw his statement.

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Leader of the

Official Opposition.

D. BRAZIL:

Speaker, obviously, in this House, we try to keep decorum to the level that it

should be and set the examples here, Mr. Speaker, and we do that. This was a

comment based on – it was a quote from the Medical Association saying that they

felt threatened as part of that.

With

that being said, because I am cognizant of the decorum here and understand we

all have a responsibility, I do withdraw that statement that I presented in the

House just now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Select Committees.

Tabling

of Documents.

Tabling of

Documents

SPEAKER:

The Speaker has one.

accordance with

section 19, subsection 5, paragraph (

a) of the

House of Assembly Accountability,

Integrity and Administration Act , I hereby table the minutes of the House of

Assembly Management Commission meeting for the meetings held on May 12 and May

26, 2021.

Any

further tabling of documents?

Notices

of Motions.

Notices of Motion

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Government House Leader.

S. CROCKER:

Thank you, Speaker.

I give

notice that I will on tomorrow move in accordance with Standing Order 11(1) that

this House not adjourn at 5:30 p.m. on Monday, October 25, 2021.

SPEAKER:

Further notices of motion?

Answers

to Questions for which Notice has been Given.

Petitions.

Petitions

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

L. O’DRISCOLL:

Thank you, Speaker.

The

background to this petition is as follows: The Witless Bay Line is a significant

piece of infrastructure.

Whereas

many commute to Bull Arm, Long Harbour and other areas for work as well as the

commercial and residential growth in our region has increased the volume of

traffic on this highway.

Therefore, we petition the House of Assembly as follows: Upgrade to this

significant piece of infrastructure to enhance and improve the flow of traffic

to and from the Trans-Canada Highway.

Mr.

Speaker, I presented this petition on many occasions. We did receive some

pavement, I’m going to say a couple of years ago under a different minister and

I certainly appreciate that. We did four kilometres. The road is 22 kilometres

long and there are other sections that has been done. I think it’s time for the

department to have a look at that and finish this infrastructure.

It’s a

piece of infrastructure that is used by tourists going along the Southern Shore

Highway. I’m going to say crab trucks driving back and forth across, campers and

visitors from all over the Island. Right now, they are going back and forth down

in Placentia down to the site for work on the White Rose project. There are

people going back and forth there so it is a big piece of infrastructure.

When I

speak about it in the House and I meet someone – when I met someone the last

time they said don’t forget motorcycles travelling across. When you’re driving

on those roads – I give them credit, they fill in the potholes and there are

some huge craters. Somebody should go up and drive it and go across it.

When you

get the good

section of pavement, obviously, everybody can’t have it, but this

is an important structure and should definitely be upgraded and be brought up to

standard. It’s not up to standard now.

Motorhomes, if they’re coming down the shore, what we call down the shore; it’s

probably up the shore for someone else. When they come down the shore, they go

out around and go out to the CBS area and come in around to go to the

Trans-Canada to avoid the Witless Bay Line, it’s so hard on their trailers and

campers and whatever they’re towing.

I’d love

for the department to be able to have a look at this, and I do appreciate your

time.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Transportation and Infrastructure.

E. LOVELESS:

Thank you, Speaker.

I will

just say to the hon. Member that we’ll certainly be considering what you have

brought forward here today in that petition in the Multi-Year Plan.

Thank

you, Speaker.

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Exploits.

P. FORSEY:

Thank you, Speaker.

The

residents on Route 350, 351A and 352 in the Exploits District are concerned of

the road conditions on these routes causing safety issues and damage to

vehicles.

Therefore, we petition the hon. House of Assembly as follows: We, the

undersigned, call upon the House of Assembly to urge the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador to immediately have roadwork contracted to upgrade and

improve conditions of these routes.

Mr.

Speaker, these are Routes 350, 351A and 352 in zones of 50 to 70 kilometres.

They are in deplorable conditions, Mr. Speaker. We have children riding on

buses. We have people in towns trying to get from one place to another and the

roads are deplorable. I’ve spoken to three different ministers now on this area

and nothing has been done, Mr. Speaker; nothing has been done to address this

and it is deplorable.

I did

have a conversation with the minister, actually, last fall, and he told me

point-blank there was no funding for Exploits. Yet, when I look at the news

release that the minister put out, he got my district up to $6.4 million and

that covers Route 360 that leads to his own district going to Bay d’Espoir,

which you have to go through the Exploits District to get to Bay d’Espoir. Thank

you, Minister.

Anyway,

Minister, during the summer driving around down in the Speaker’s district,

actually, Route 340 is all cleared up, right smooth going down there. That’s on

Route 340 and Route 360 in the minister’s district that’s being done, and 350,

351A and 352, what happened to it?

SPEAKER:

I wanted to rule you out of

order there for a second.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Transportation and Infrastructure.

E. LOVELESS:

If there’s ever a time that a

Member for Exploits have made me happy is right now because let me clarify; let

me clarify for those who don’t know. Route 360 where there was paving done this

year was right on the verge of his district going down past –

P. FORSEY:

(Inaudible.)

E. LOVELESS:

Hold on now. I gave you the

opportunity.

SPEAKER:

Order, please!

E. LOVELESS:

It passes right alongside the

Lions Max Simms camp where a lot of your constituents go. Are you telling me I

should not have done that?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

E. LOVELESS:

So you ask for it, you got

it.

Bring it

on the MHA for Terra Nova.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Terra

Nova.

L. PARROTT:

Speaker, the reason for this

petition is as follows: The road to the Town of Terra Nova is unsafe for travel

by those who use it. The road isn’t maintained on a regular basis and is the

responsibility of the Department of Transportation. The road is the only way and

out of the community and is travelled daily by students on a school bus to

Glovertown and parents are concerned for their safety.

Therefore, we petition the hon. House of Assembly as follows: To urge the

Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to repair the road to ensure the safety

for those who travel on it on a daily basis.

Mr.

Speaker, the road to the Town of Terra Nova is gone. Make no mistake about it.

It was voted the worst road in Atlantic Canada. By the department’s own

admission, when they look at a road from a safety standpoint for fixing they

measure from the centre line. Well, if you drive in to the Town of Terra Nova,

the only thing in existence is the centre line. There’s no asphalt on the

outsides of it. It’s shameful.

listened to the minister over there, they’ve gotten 1,000 pictures sent to them

and there’s been no response from the department – none – which, in itself,

speaks volumes.

Now, the

minister was questioned about the politics in paving and the work that was done

in his district and he quickly pointed out the extra work that was done in my

district. Well, it was done on a Class I highway, on the Trans-Canada Highway.

E. LOVELESS:

(Inaudible.)

L. PARROTT:

On a Class I highway, not on

Class II and III like you did in your district.

Now, I

applaud you for standing up for your constituents. I applaud you. That’s your

job as an MHA, but as a minister the role is to look after the entire province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

L. PARROTT:

So I don’t applaud you for

that.

This

road is extremely – extremely – unsafe. Now, to top it off, there are quarries

in there that are travelled on and government money comes back from the

quarries. Logging, Nalcor, they got the road tore to pieces. When the power line

went through, Nalcor tore this road to pieces. They should have replaced it.

That road is gone, and I mean gone. It’s most likely, like AAA said, the worst

road in Atlantic Canada.

I urge

the minister – I urge the minister – not to look at the multi-year program, but

to look for a fix now before somebody dies, because they don’t have years to

wait. The road is shot. There are students in school buses and they shouldn’t be

travelling out over that road.

Thank

you, Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Transportation and Infrastructure.

E. LOVELESS:

Let me respond to the Member

opposite to say that I don’t govern based on that survey. I don’t now and I

won’t. Because you know what I govern on, I govern on the expertise in my

department, and I did that and I will continue to do that. I rely on their

expertise in terms of determining what roads will be done.

You want

to talk about playing politics with paving. I guess if I’m going to be investing

my district I’m playing politics. But one of your colleagues, I actually visited

her district to go and view her roads because they were of a concern to me. I’ve

travelled a lot, so that’s not playing politics. As far as I’m concerned, that

is a concern, and I did that out of a concern for the roads.

Not only

that, this summer I travelled many kilometres of roads in all districts to see

and, as far as I’m concerned, it’s a good place to start in terms of planning.

I’m going to continue to – we will consider, absolutely, that road in our

multi-year plan.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Topsail - Paradise.

P. DINN:

Thank you, Speaker.

presented this petition earlier this week and I think it’s extremely important

that I present it again.

WHEREAS

there are many hopeful mothers and couples in this province dealing with

infertility issues and require medical assistance to conceive; and

WHEREAS

the costs associated with out-of-province fertility treatments, specifically in

vitro fertilization, are extremely cost prohibitive; and

WHEREAS

there are doctors in the province trained in in vitro fertilization and have the

desire to set up an in vitro fertilization clinic in the province; and

WHEREAS

the province is dealing with an aging population and serious population growth

challenges;

THEREFORE, we petition the House of Assembly as follows: We, the undersigned,

call upon the House of Assembly to urge the Government of Newfoundland and

Labrador to establish a fertility treatment clinic within the province,

providing full fertility services, including in vitro fertilization, for hopeful

mothers and families and, in the interim, provide financial assistance to access

out-of-province fertility treatment and services.

Speaker,

I have received many, many inquiries, calls, emails from families and young

women who want to start a family and want to stay in this province and raise

their family. They are not getting the option to do so because they do not have

the full services available here in this province to allow them to conceive and

have a baby.

The

costs associated with it are extremely, extremely high and to have to travel out

of province is even more inappropriate for them because they can’t get seat

sales. You have to run and go when they have to go. It’s just not a conducive

environment for young mothers, young women and couples to have families.

Now, the

Premier committed during the election to enable to have those fertility services

here in the province. The Minister of Health said it’s not optimistic to do so.

The Minister Responsible for Women and Gender Equality said that she’s going to

commit to a review. This is not a multiple-choice question. This is a simple

question of offering the services to the young women and families in this

province who want to have a baby and start a family in this province. It has to

happen now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister

Responsible for Women and Gender Equality.

P. PARSONS:

Thank you, Speaker.

certainly appreciate the hon. Member’s passion about this topic. As I said here

multiple times this week, we can all certainly be passionate about this and all

relate. Like I said before, I’m sure many MHAs – if not all MHAs in this House

of Assembly – have received calls from constituents.

Let me

be clear: This government supports women. This government supports families who

want to grow their families and to have children. As I said earlier this week as

well, based on my correspondence and my work with my colleague, the Minister for

Health and Community Services, there is currently a program being developed now

to fund residents who are eligible to travel out of province.

That

said, this Premier has campaigned on it. The Premier is passionate about it, as

am I, as a woman. As the Minister Responsible for Women and Gender Equality, we

are committed to reviewing this service and certainly doing everything that we

can to help young women and families who want to grow their families and

ultimately grow our population.

It’s not

falling on deaf ears. I can’t be clearer than that. I will say I am very excited

and I can’t wait to finally get out and announce an update, some good news, as

soon as those updates become available. But no make no doubt about it, I

certainly will be keeping the feet to the fire with my staff and to do what we

can as a government to help these people.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Mount

Pearl - Southlands.

P. LANE:

Thank you, Speaker.

The

background to this petition is as follows:

In the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, there are over 75 patients who live with

cystic fibrosis. Cystic fibrosis is a genetic disease that causes severe damage

to the lungs, digestive system and other organs in the body. Unfortunately, as

of now, only the symptoms of CF are being treated.

In June

2021, Health Canada approved Trikafta, a triple combination precision medicine

that targets the gene defect that causes CF. Trikafta has been proven to result

in life-changing health improvements. For example, Stanojevic demonstrated that

accessing Trikafta in 2021 would result in significant improvements for those

living with CF by 2030, including: 60 per cent fewer people living with severe

lung disease; 15 per cent fewer deaths; 19 per cent fewer hospitalizations or

home intravenous courses; increase of an estimated 9.2 years for the median age

of survival for a child born with CF; and reduction in the number of double-lung

transplants.

Mr.

Speaker, once again, I have people here who are supporting this petition from

all over the province. They’re from the Shearstown, Coley’s Point, Bay Roberts

area and Conception Bay North are primarily the people here today.

I will

say that I did hear from one of the advocates last night and they were very

excited and pleased to say that they have been told, at least, that – prior to

then, Newfoundland and Labrador was the only province in the entire country not

approving this life-changing medication. But I was told last night, from an

advocate, that they were advised that our province has indeed, as of last night,

there was late-breaking news that our province was finally going to sign on and

approve this drug.

I was

told that unofficially. If that’s true, that’s fantastic news and I applaud the

government for doing so. But I would like to hear from the government, from the

minister, just to confirm in this House of Assembly from that official source

that the government is indeed going to be providing this life-altering,

life-changing drug for families who have a loved one with cystic fibrosis.

Thank

you, Mr. Speaker.

SPEAKER:

Orders of the Day.

Orders of the Day

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Government House

Leader.

S. CROCKER:

Thank you, Speaker.

I move,

seconded by the Deputy Government House Leader, for leave to introduce a bill

entitled,

An Act Respecting The Renaming Of Red Indian Lake, Bill 12, and I

further move that the said bill be now read a first time.

SPEAKER:

It is moved and seconded that

the hon. the Deputy Government House Leader shall have leave to introduce Bill

12,

An Act Respecting The Renaming Of Red Indian Lake, and that the said bill be

now read a first time.

Is it

the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

All

those in favour, ‘aye.’

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

SPEAKER:

All those against, ‘nay.’

Carried.

Motion,

the hon. the Minister Responsible for Indigenous Affairs and Reconciliation and

Minister Responsible for Labrador Affairs to introduce a bill, “An Act

Respecting The Renaming Of Red Indian Lake,” carried. (Bill 12)

CLERK (Barnes):

A bill,

An Act Respecting The

Renaming Of Red Indian Lake. (Bill 12)

SPEAKER:

This bill has been read a

first time.

When

shall the bill be read a second time?

S. CROCKER:

Tomorrow.

SPEAKER:

Tomorrow.

motion, Bill 12 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Government House

Leader.

S. CROCKER:

Thank you, Speaker.

I call

from the Order Paper, Motion 4.

Speaker,

I moved, seconded by the Deputy Government House Leader, that under Standing

Order 11(1) this House not adjourn at 5:30 p.m. today, Thursday, October 21,

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Government House

Leader.

Is the

House ready for the question?

All

those in favour, ‘aye.’

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

SPEAKER:

All those against, ‘nay.’

Carried.

The hon.

the Government House Leader.

S. CROCKER:

Thank you very much, Speaker.

I call

from the Order Paper, Order 7, Bill 22,

An Act Respecting Off-Road Vehicles.

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Digital Government and Service NL.

S. STOODLEY:

Speaker, I move, seconded by

the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, that Bill 22,

An Act

Respecting Off-Road Vehicles, be now read a second time.

SPEAKER:

It is moved and second that Bill 22,

An Act Respecting Off-Road Vehicles, now be

read a second time.

Motion,

second reading of a bill, “An Act Respecting Off-Road Vehicles.” (Bill 22)

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Minister of

Digital Government and Service NL.

S. STOODLEY:

Thank you, Speaker.

I’m very

pleased today to speak to Bill 22, the

Off-Road Vehicles Act .

Let me

start by saying off-road vehicle accidents are not rare. They happen all too

often in this province and I can’t stress enough the importance of safety. I

would ask all Members of the House to reflect on your use of all-terrain

vehicles as well as your constituents’ use of off-road vehicles and how can we

change the culture of safety in the province around the use of off-road

vehicles.

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians need to understand the risks associated with

the use of such vehicles and what we can all do collectively to ensure our

children, partners, friends and family members get to enjoy using their off-road

vehicles and live to tell their stories.

We have

all seen and heard media stories regarding off-road vehicle safety and the

increasing number of accidents, injuries and fatalities involving such vehicles.

According to the Newfoundland and Labrador Statistics Agency, since 2014 there

has been 68 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who have lost their lives in

off-road vehicle accidents. We’re still counting statistics very sadly, Speaker.

Since January of this year, we have had an additional four fatalities. That’s

four too many and many of these are preventable.

recognize that for many people in rural and remote communities vehicles such as

ATVs and snowmobiles are their primary means of transportation.

Mr.

Speaker, I grew up in Grand Falls-Windsor, I rode on Ski-Doo’s and ATVs. When I

was six I had a minor mishap on a Ski-Doo, I don’t really accept responsibility

because I was six. Someone allowed me to operate a Ski-Doo when I was six, which

I don’t think was appropriate at the time, but maybe since then I haven’t really

been comfortable on Ski-Doo’s. I also can’t get my feet warm enough, actually.

I’ve had different kinds of boots but I can’t get warm enough on a Ski-Doo.

They’re not my favourite. I prefer an ATV at my parent’s cabin; I enjoy using

the ATVs there.

I guess

I’m not an expert but I am kind of a user of ATVs and snowmobiles. Over the last

six months I have spent a ridiculous amount of time reading and learning and

debating everything to do with off-road vehicle safety. I have learned a lot and

I am very pleased to bring these changes to the House today.

I’d also

like to chat about some of the consultations that we’ve done because our

department has concluded extensive consultations. We’ve done a jurisdictional

scan throughout the country in consultations with stakeholders; for example: the

Newfoundland and Labrador Snowmobile Federation, snowmobile clubs, the T’Railway

Council, Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador, the Canadian Off-Highway

Vehicle Distributors Council, the medical community, Indigenous governments,

Indigenous organizations and enforcement partners.

I’ve

received many letters from physicians and from medical organizations pleading

with us to have, for example, things like mandatory helmets.

I’d also

like to highlight an opinion survey that was done by the Newfoundland and

Labrador Statistics Agency in 2018, I guess at the earliest stages of this,

which was before my time. They did a survey that was geographically

representative across the province, with 96.2 per cent of respondents supporting

mandatory helmets in the province. That was for snowmobiling in particular.

Respondents also indicated a desire for increased enforcement and expanding the

legislation to include other motorized vehicles, for example, Side By Sides in

these changes, Speaker.

The

changes we’re proposing addresses the feedback of what we heard from our

stakeholder consultations and also presents an opportunity for residents to

renew their commitment to safe and responsible off-road vehicle use.

I’d also

like to recognize the power of the Nunatsiavut Government as well as the Inuit

communities of Nain, Hopedale, Postville, Makkovik and Rigolet to make their own

laws regarding the operation and use of recreational vehicles. Under the

Labrador Inuit Land Claims Agreement, the Nunatsiavut Government can make laws

for use on Labrador Inuit lands outside the communities, while the Inuit

community governments can make by-laws for use within community boundaries.

Where there is a conflict with provincial law, the Inuit law or community by-law

prevails.

Additionally, under the federal Indian Act ,

the regulation of off-road vehicle traffic on reserves is a by-law-making power

of a band, exercisable by the band councils of Natuashish, Sheshatshiu and Conne

River. Under

section 88 of the federal

Indian Act , the band by-law will prevail over a provincial law in the event

of a conflict.

There is

opportunity, Speaker, for any Indigenous organization that I’ve listed here

today – they can create their own by-laws so if there’s something that we’ve put

in this legislation that they feel shouldn’t apply to them or if they would like

to, you know, increase safety a bit further or make an exemption, they’re

certainly legally permitted to do that.

The act

that we’re proposing modernizes language to help users understand the

requirements of the legislation and clearly recognizes Side By Sides as being

subject to the law. At the moment, in our current legislation, the word Side By

Side is not really accounted for. The wording is not there. So we’re trying to

make this very clear to users that Side By Sides, where they apply and where

they don’t apply. When in doubt, they apply everywhere. The rules to Side By

Sides apply to the other rules of off-road vehicles.

In terms

of some of the specifics that we’re proposing, for example, a person must not

operate a dirt bike unless they are able to sit astride the bike with both feet

touching the ground and a person will not be able to operate a Side By Side

unless they’re able to sit with their seat belt fastened and both feet on the

floor.

Speaker,

we’ve reviewed many owners manuals in coming up with some of these. I have some

here with me today. The changes we’re proposing in legislation align with the

manufacturers’ recommendations for these machines as well. The act also makes

allowances for approved disability-related modifications based on manufacturer

recommendations in respect of those requirements.

In an

effort to help reduce the number of brain injuries and fatalities, under the

Off-Road Vehicles Act it will be

mandatory to wear helmets on all off-road vehicles unless exempted under

regulations. I think it’s important for Members and anyone watching to

understand that today we’re debating the act and changes in the act, and then

the specific exemptions to the mandatory helmet clause, those come in

regulations. We’re being transparent about what our proposed policy is for the

regulations because I understand this is very important to the people of the

province. But the regulations come later; they don’t come back to the House. So

we’re happy to chat about those today and get feedback, as well as get feedback

from the general public, and I know I’ve received lots of communications from

people on those as well.

Just to

be transparent, if you look across the country, there’s a range of different

types of exemptions. The two that we’re kind of going to review further and get

more information on: one is hunting and trapping activities for less than 20

kilometres an hour and having that being an exemption to mandatory helmets; and

the other one that we’re going to seek further evidence on and investigate

further is factory-enclosed Side By Sides. So when you buy a Side By Side from

the factory that is fully enclosed, the requirement to wear helmets for that.

These are two ones in particular that we’re going to be looking for additional

information on and considering further but if others come up in debate, we’re

happy to consider those as well.

Speaker,

we’re proposing in the regulations to enforce the use of seat belts on any

off-road vehicle equipped with them. I’m extremely pleased that the amendments

to the act will protect the province’s youth by clarifying rules regarding age

limitations. Proposed amendments will also require mandatory operators’ safety

training for anyone under 16 years of age, anyone registering an off-road

vehicle for the first time and anyone convicted of an offence under the act or

regulations who has had their registration cancelled or suspended. The training

provisions will be brought into force once we have made training widely

available.

Speaker,

we thought a lot about training and in the effort of improving our safety

culture here in the province: How can we, I guess, roll out mandatory training

to have the most effect? But we also recognize that many people of our province

are very experienced users. So we believe, Speaker, that we’ve come up with a

good compromise in terms of long term, dramatically increasing the safety

competence of our off-road vehicle users and operators while recognizing the

experience that many of our owners and operators currently have.

So, just

to reiterate that, we are proposing mandatory safety training for anyone under

16 years of age, so 15 or below; anyone registering an off-road vehicle for the

first time – so if you’ve registered a vehicle in the past, you wouldn’t have to

do training again. If someone comes in from another province with their off-road

vehicle, they would have to do the training; and anyone who is convicted of an

offence under the act or regulations who’s had their registration cancelled or

suspended. They would also have to do training, Speaker, because they’ve

demonstrated to Motor Registration that they don’t have a good handle on the

rules or that they are not following the rules.

In terms

of training, we are looking at online training. The specifics are still to be

worked out with our safety partners, Speaker. When we’re looking at when

different parts of this act could be proclaimed depending on how the debate goes

today, Speaker, we’re looking at potentially the training provisions coming into

force later. Some of the other provisions where we don’t need to work out

additional details, they could come into force earlier and things such as the

training would come into force later.

We’ve

also added provisions, Speaker, so those under 13 years of age will not be

permitted to operate off-road vehicles with an engine size greater than 125 cc.

The act also requires individuals under 16 years of age to be supervised by a

licensed driver who is at least 18 years of age.

Speaker,

we’ve looked across the country and each province, I guess, has slightly

different nuances in terms of the age and which types of vehicles you can

operate, and we’ve listed and consulted with many different organizations.

There’s no perfect solution here. We think that this is a reasonable option that

protects very young riders and that the restrictions here would not be too

onerous, but we are happy to debate those further.

When

operating off-road vehicles near highways, operators will be permitted to cross

a highway where the minimum visibility is not less than 150 metres in both

directions. Crossing a highway on an off-road vehicle also requires a driver’s

licence issued under the Highway Traffic

Act . Speaker, we’ve seen a lot of accidents, especially lately, where

operators have been crossing highways which lead to both incidents for the

off-road vehicle operators but also for motoring members of the public who are

on the highway.

The

current regulations, I think it talks about 100 yards. Myself, I have no concept

of how far a yard is, so we’ve changed it to be 150 metres, visibility in both

directions. I think, Speaker, this is where the culture element comes into

effect. I think it’s important that riders and operators plan their routes and

plan where you’re going to cross a highway for your journey and make sure that

you have 150 metres, in both directions, visibility. If you’re not sure and if

the visibility is low – when in doubt, don’t cross the highway. This is very

serious. We’ve seen this year and in the past years incidents of people crossing

the highway and the high speeds that motor vehicles are travelling. When in

doubt, you shouldn’t cross the highway. This is where the safety culture I think

is important. People should be thinking safety first.

Speaker,

operators will be also permitted to travel along a highway to access a trail

where the off-vehicles operated on the shoulder of the highway for a maximum

distance of 1 kilometre and the vehicle is operated at speed of not more than 20

kilometres per hour.

Speaker,

we recognize that as people enjoy their off-road vehicles across the province,

they often have to ride along side a highway. I believe currently that’s not

contemplated in the legislation. We understand that sometimes they have to, but

operators shouldn’t be doing that for extended amounts.

Based on

our consultations, we believe 1 kilometre is an appropriate amount to be

travelling along side the highway, but the vehicle cannot be operated at a speed

of more than 20 kilometres per hour. They have to be going relatively slow, or

we certainly encourage slower than that as well.

Speaker,

when towing trailers, hitches or attachments, they must meet specific safety

requirements that we’re proposing and operators are not permitted to tow

passengers on or across a highway unless there is an exemption for a

non-ambulatory situation. To me, that kind of wording didn’t really make sense

the first time I heard it. You think an ambulance and ambulatory but when you’re

referring to someone who’s being transported in that kind of emergency

situation, that’s referred to as non-ambulatory and so that’s kind of the

wording in our proposed legislation. If there was an emergency and someone was

bringing someone on a Ski-Doo in a trailer to a local hospital in a snowstorm

that would certainly be permitted, Speaker.

Another

thing we’ve done is had a serious look at the fines. Previously, there was one

set of fines for snowmobiles, one set of fines for ATVs, so we’ve kind of

amalgamated them together and we’ve since checked the varying severity that

someone might contravene one of the stipulations. So the new fines range from

$100 to $2,500 for all vehicle types and we also have increased fines for second

and subsequent offences, Speaker.

The

Government of Newfoundland and Labrador recognizes the value of outdoor

activities but safety really has to be a top priority in the minds of the owners

and operators of off-road vehicles. I think the culture of safety is important

to keep in mind; also I think the role of supervisors. If people own and operate

these off-road vehicles, it’s very important that anyone, their children or a

friend or colleagues, who might be operating these vehicles really understand

the power of the machines. I have read through multiple manuals myself now of

different types of ATVs and snowmobiles and dirt bikes and we have to take heed

to what the manufacturers recommend.

They

know best and following those safety rules outlined that we’re proposing today,

but also that the manufacturer recommends, are very important in making sure

that these machines are operated safely and also that there aren’t any

unintended consequences. We’ve heard a lot of stories where people are not

physically able to handle certain vehicles. So I think that’s also something

very important that supervisors need to keep in mind when they are supervising

other activities on off-road vehicles.

In terms

of enforcement, I’d just like to thank the collective effort of those who

enforce the legislation to ensure the law is upheld. I commend the Royal

Canadian Mounted Police, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, resources

enforcement officers with the Department of Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture

and other peace officers who work tirelessly to enforce and education the public

on off-road vehicle safety.

I look

forward to the debate today, Speaker. I’m not sure that we’re going to get to

Committee today but whenever we’re ready, we have lots of – I’m sure it will be

a long session of lots of Q & A’s because we have a very substantial piece of

legislation.

I guess

I would just stress that safety is everyone’s responsibility and I think our

rules are only as good as people follow. I would implore everyone across the

province to follow our rules and even go above and beyond that to think about

safety when they are operating and enjoying their off-road vehicles.

Thank

you, Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Ferryland,

L. O’DRISCOLL:

Thank you, Speaker.

First of

all, I’d like to say it’s an honour to speak in this House today to represent

the beautiful District of Ferryland and certainly a great honour to do that.

First of

all, let me start by thanking the officials in the department for providing us

with – and my colleagues that were there – a briefing on the legislation. I

would certainly like to thank them for that.

Speaker,

this legislation will repeal the Motorized

Snow Vehicles and All-Terrain Vehicles Act and replace it with the new act

entitled, the Off-Road Vehicles Act .

In implementing a new act, it is important and the hope of the minister and of

the department that off-road vehicles such as ATVs, Side By Sides, dirt bikes

and others will be used to increase safety and provisions.

I heard

the minister say: Think about your own use. I don’t know if I want to go back

and look at my own use on an ATV when I was young; I don’t know if I want to

even speak about it. Some of the stuff that we did, I don’t know if it would be

so safe today. You learn over time how it should be handled and how they all

should be taken care of and driven with respect. Sometimes that’s what we have

to teach our kids and, hopefully, pass that on to our grandkids and so on. But

sometimes speaking of your own use might not be so good sometimes, so just to

touch on that.

Speaker,

we support the safe use of off-road vehicles. We recognize that these machines

are, in fact, motorized vehicles and if not used properly they can result in

serious injury and death. We encourage all residents and visitors to this

province who use, ride and drive off-road vehicles to do so in a safe manner.

Before I

talk about the specific legislation, I do want to take a moment to express my

sympathies to those individuals who had loved ones die from accidents and

collisions involving off-road vehicles in our province. I also wish to give my

best wishes to individuals who have been injured by these vehicles and wish

everyone who is dealing with an injury a speedy recovery and a full recovery.

Speaker,

while recent history has shown that ATVs, Side By Sides, dirt bikes and other

off-road vehicles can be dangerous, they can also be valuable tools. Many people

in our province use them as tools for woodcutting, transportation, hunting,

trapping and so on and all kinds of recreational use. It’s important that the

legislation and regulatory framework, which the province puts in place, allows

for practical and safe utilization of off-road vehicles. I believe all MHAs will

agree to this point.

As a

caucus, we are supportive of safety; however, we do have some questions about

some of the elements contained in the legislation and we’ll be bringing those

specific questions into Committee. I look forward to this as it takes place in

the next phase of debate; however, given this is not started yet, before the

legislation, I want to talk about enforcement.

This

legislation does not increase the enforcement of the rules. How can the minister

expect safety to increase if enforcement doesn’t increase? That’s a very

important piece of this. You had the RCMP today at a briefing and the RNC and

they’re strapped as it is right now. I get calls in my district regarding this

and not being able to enforce – nothing to do with ATVs, just to be able to

answer calls with mental health and all other stuff that they respond to. To put

more onus on the police forces – obviously, enforcement is going to be a very

big factor in this and that’s something that we should be looking at.

One of

the components of this new act is that a person will not be allowed to operate a

dirt bike unless they sit on the seat with their feet touching the ground and a

person will not be allowed to operate a Side By Side unless both feet can reach

the floor. For individuals who have a disability there are modification

allowances in this legislation, but I have to wonder how the impacts of a person

who has been driving a dirt bike or a Side By Side safely for years will now be

prohibited from doing so. Is this really fair or is the height base a

discrimination? So it’s something that we have to consider for sure.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

L. O’DRISCOLL:

One of the new features of

this legislation is safety training. Safety training will be required for anyone

under the age of 16 years of age, anyone who is registering an off-road vehicle

for the first time or anyone convicted of an offence under the act.

support the training for people under age 16 and for people who have been

convicted of an offence under the act. However, we are concerned that the

requirements of training for people who are registering an off-road vehicle for

the first time may deter people from registering their off-road vehicles.

Presumably, a person who currently has an off-road vehicle registered does not

have to take training as recognition for their ongoing safe usage. But what

about the instance where a family owns an off-road vehicle, it’s registered in

the name of one individual, but the spouse and adult children have been using it

safely. If one of those adult children now purchases their own off-road vehicle,

do they need to take training, even though they have safely operated the vehicle

for many years?

haven’t been provided with enough information to determine if this training will

make a difference in encouraging the safe off-road use of vehicles. We have

questions about the training. Questions like: Who will be doing the training?

Will not-for-profit organizations be allowed to offer it? Will not

not-for-profits offer it? When will training be available? What will the

training cover? Will it be online or in-person training?

When I

think about online training I’m not so sure sometimes, because us as

Newfoundlanders have to find a way to get around to do the training. If you do

it online you can go in and do it for your kid or something like that. So I’m

not sure online training is a way that we – not saying it’s not good, just a way

that the right person is doing the right training. That’s something that I don’t

know how you police that, but I think that’s a tough one. I see your reasoning

behind it, but I’m just wondering how we get around it and how we will get

around it. Because there are always ways that we find ways to get around stuff.

We’re

also wondering if training should be mandatory for anyone regardless of age who

does have a licence to drive a motorized vehicle on a public roadway. Has the

minister considered this? Did this idea come up in consultations? What were the

findings of the consultations?

The

legislation also brings in some rules surrounding the towing of trailers. The

legislation includes a definition of trailer and hitch requirements and

indicates that persons can be towed in a trailer. But passengers cannot be

riding in the trailer if the off-road vehicle is crossing a highway. This is a

safety rule that makes sense, no question about it.

The risk

of collision is greater on the roadway, so removing passengers, walking them

across the road and resuming the ride makes sense. So no question, if you’re

towing somebody, you’d certainly look for the safest way to tow. If somebody’s

in a caboose behind that you’re going across a road – obviously, we’ve done that

when we were kids and we were in the back and they drove across a road, a good

stretch of highway, not on a turn that you could look and go across the road

safely and then go across a pond. So we’ve done that. I would say many people in

this House have done that when they were kids or as adults. You do it as safely

as you can. Accidents sometimes are accidents. You just get in a situation that

you didn’t mean to get into and it happens. But sometimes we have to use common

sense.

Under

age limits and supervision, there’s another area where the legislation makes

changes. Currently there are different age requirements for the operation of a

snowmobile and an ATV. Currently, an individual has to be 13 years of age to

operate a snowmobile, while a person under 13 can operate a snowmobile if

they’re accompanied by another person who is 19 years of age and older.

Regarding ATVs, currently the age to operate is 16, with a provision for a

person age 14 to 16 to operate a smaller ATV, if they are supervised by someone

who is 19 years and older.

I’m

going to say, one time last year, I was driving through the community of Witless

Bay, coming up the steep hill going towards Bay Bulls, my daughter was on the

passenger side, and a dirt bike just shot right across in front of me – and we

weren’t close; more than the length of this Chamber away. It wasn’t close for me

to be hitting that person. They just flew across the road, never looked and

never stopped.

Ten

seconds later, there was a police car right behind them chasing them. I didn’t

know the kid; I found out after who it was – not my concern, but he had a

passenger on the back. When they got across the road, the police officer passed

him by, went ahead of him far enough, stopped the car and the bike went, bang,

right off the back of the car. The police officer jumped out, the bike backed up

far enough – it bounced far enough back. The bike went out, hauled around the

vehicle, went down the road further toward the powerhouse, I call it; the cop

got in the car, up the hill and went the other way. That was the end of the

chase.

About an

hour later, I went back home and went down to the police station in Bay Bulls to

look at the car; a fair-size dent and I spoke to the police officer. I wasn’t

looking to get anybody in trouble and certainly never done that. At the time I

didn’t even know who it was, but their hands are tied. No different than a

high-speed chase in a car; they’re not allowed to chase them at a certain speed

and they’re not allowed to chase them on a bike.

I’m sure

they can race them in a police car, no doubt about it, but it was concerning.

When I seen him shooting across the road – and listen, I’ve met the police on my

bike and wondering if you should be driving or not. It’s only the summer that I

needed to go to my brother’s house to get a trailer. My bike is home in my yard

and there was a couple of kilometres to go along the sides the road to get up

where it was. I don’t have a truck and I wanted a trailer to use, so I stopped a

police officer and I asked him: Am I allowed to drive the bike alongside the

road to go up here to get that trailer?

He said:

Really you’re not, but it depends on who’s hauling you in and how busy they are.

I seen them in my community going along with trailers – some people are hauling

wood. They’re not going to haul those people in that are hauling wood. That’s a

source of heat for those people, but I elected not to take my bike and I’m not

going to be the MHA getting hauled in on the side of the road by the police

officer, getting a ticket. I had to go get a loan of a truck to go get the

trailer to bring out. So they were strapped to be able to do that. I wanted to

throw that in there that they’re certainly pushed to the limits in regard to

being able to enforce. That’s certainly big.

I’ll go

back to where I was. The new legislation sets age requirements for an off-road

vehicle to do the same. So individuals who are under 13 are not permitted to

operate an off-road vehicle with an engine greater than 125cc, and those under

16 years of age must be supervised by a licensed driver who is at least the age

of 18. As noted, some individuals, those under 16, will need to be supervised

when using off-road vehicles. So combining this one age group is certainly a

good start, I think, instead of wondering if you’re 13 or 16. I think it’s a

good start.

This new

act will now require that off-road vehicle operators and passengers must wear an

appropriate helmet. We have been told that there will be an exemption in the

regulations that helmets will not be required when the off-road vehicle is being

used for hunting or trapping activities and that the vehicle is travelling less

than 20 kilometres. Again, less than 20 kilometres. It’s about enforcement. They

don’t have a radar gun for 20 kilometres.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh!

SPEAKER (Warr):

Order, please!

Thank

you.

L. O’DRISCOLL:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

certainly support wearing a helmet on ATVs, dirt bikes, snowmobiles and whatever

the motorized vehicle is. We certainly do. However, we have some questions about

wearing of helmets when the person is driving a Side-By-Side vehicle: How a

helmet will impact a driver’s line of vision when there are already roll bars

and other parts of the vehicle in the line of sight.

We also

have concerns about the practical element. Some of the Side By Sides are

enclosed and do not have air flowing. With a helmet making these uncomfortable,

probably steaming up masks if they have them on or helmets with the visors on

them, so something that should be looked at.

Seat

belts will be required to be worn in any off-road vehicle which is equipped in

off-road vehicles. We support the use of seat belts for using off-road vehicles

when they are available in an off-road vehicle.

So,

Speaker, while we want to increase the safe use of these off-road vehicles, we

do have some questions about how the legislation will be implemented. This new

legislation does not change the enforcement related to ATV, Side By Side or

snowmobile safety. It does outline the legislation regulations will be enforced

by any police officer or peace officer, including those in Wildlife Enforcement

Division. Do we have enough officers employed in this province to enforce this

legislation? I’d have to question that. Will more officers be required?

I was

also concerned about the new roles communicated to people who own and use

off-road vehicles. In a briefing we were told the safety organizations and trail

organizations would spread the word, but not everyone is a member. I don’t want

a person to learn about these rules for the first time when they get a fine or

hauled in for breaking or violating the rules.

Mr.

Speaker, I also have concerns about the consultation process with the government

to this legislation. I’m aware that a number of organizations were consulted.

But what about the average off-road user who isn’t a member of this

organization? You have to keep them in mind.

Speaker,

we are in support of making off-road vehicle use safer in the province; however,

we are concerned that there’s not enough enforcement of the legislation already

in place, and we have concerns about some of the practical implementation of

what is contained in the proposed legislation.

I’ll

also go as far as to say that when the Minister of Transportation and

Infrastructure is doing some roads – hopefully my roads along the way. Some of

these roads, when you’re going along some of these highways, you see there are

wood roads and hopefully, when they’re doing some of these roads, they consider

and make them safe to be able to enter these tracks, or roads or whatever

they’re called.

In my

district, I’m going to say there’s a group that are fighting or petitioning for,

or whatever you may call it, to try to upgrade our rail system where we are. I

know the trains are gone, but the rail system, the roads and the tracks, what we

call them, are still there. In Central Newfoundland, I mean, we’re envious of

the Port Blandford area, Grand Falls area. It’s a great economy that they have

there. I was out in Terra Nova the summer at a golf tournament fundraiser and I

looked at the pile of ATVs and quads that were at the hotel, having lunch and

staying there for the night; it was incredible.

In my

district – and that’s something that we’re going to work on, hopefully – I think

there’s something there that we can join all these railway tracks back up. They

did go across the Island; they did touch every community. So I think if we put

some emphasis on that, it will help. Like, I’m looking in the Town of Bay Bulls

to go to Trepassey. There are times you can’t go anywhere but on the road to get

to the next community. There are roads that you just can’t get through,

riverbeds, but the tracks were there. Listen, to say to go back and do them all,

but there got to be some funding that can help join these communities, whether

it be half a kilometre in the woods or to make trails, I think it’s something

that we could certainly look at.

The

difference between two districts – so every MHA here, I would think, would have

different angles on this ATV legislation and how it affects them. I’m looking

forward to seeing how it affects Grand Falls-Windsor and how it affects Terra

Nova. It’s certainly not going to affect St. John’s East in the middle of the

road on an ATV – I wouldn’t think. Unless you get a Snowmageddon when they got

the Ski-Doos on the roads.

Everybody will have a different spin on this and we certainly can’t touch it

all, but I’m sure there’s going to be some great points brought up, so I’d

certainly like to take the time and thank you so much.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for

Humber - Bay of Islands.

E. JOYCE:

Thank you, Speaker.

I’m

going to have a few words on this today, and I thank the government and the

Opposition for letting me have a few words now. I have appointments later, so I

just want to thank them for that, on both sides.

Speaker,

first of all, I heard the minister and I heard the Opposition critic talk about

the families that lost people through this. It is a sad situation in the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It has been ongoing for a while and the

regulations brought in today are fairly good regulations. There are some that I

feel needs to be a bit adjusted, but to the families that lost the loved ones, I

join everybody to say that we’re saddened that happened over the years.

Hopefully, these regulations here will help that no other families will have to

go through that.

To the

minister, for the work that’s done with that, you and the staff and reaching out

to a lot of groups, I just want to recognize that it is a fairly comprehensive

review. I’ll just bring up – because we’ll have time in Committee to ask

questions – some of the concerns that were raised to me.

I know

we heard – and I know the Opposition has raised it and I know the government has

heard it also – concerns about wearing helmets in the factory-sealed Side By

Sides. I call it factory-seals because I’m not an advocate of too much on the

ATVs. I have a Kubota, but I’m not up on it as a lot of other people across the

province are. I admit that, but the ones that I’m speaking to on the West Coast,

they always use the words factory sealed, which has a seat belt, which has

windows, which has steel doors and the frames and has roll bars and things like

that. That’s what they usually call the factory seals; it’s not the open ones

where you have canvas on the side or maybe on the roof. That’s what I mean by

that.

That’s

one of the concerns that has been brought to me is concerning wearing helmets in

one of those vehicles. I’ll just give you an example that someone tossed out to

me. As we know, we’re promoting this across the trails of Newfoundland and

Labrador. If someone left Clarenville, came towards Corner Brook for four or

five hours with four people in there, they have to have a helmet on for four

hours in a vehicle; air conditioning, you’re going to need air conditioning. If

anybody ever used one of those vehicles and put a helmet on and tried to put

your head back so that you can look properly or ensure the safety of where

you’re driving, it’s very difficult.

Most of

those vehicles – I know the information that I’m getting from a lot of people –

they’re not the speed demons like some of the other ones. These here are not the

fast ATVs that we see and these here have a lot more protection in a lot of

these vehicles.

I heard

the minister earlier – and here’s the problem I have is that we’re going to keep

it in the bill, about the helmets; we’re going to keep it in the bill, but then

we’re going to put it in the regulations: may or may not in the regulations.

Here’s the problem I have with that. Once we keep it in the act, it’s up to

someone in the department to change the regulations. It’s out of the control of

this House of Assembly. That’s the way it works. But if we can get it in the act

that these factory-sealed Side By Sides don’t have to wear helmets, they can’t

put it in the regulations.

Right

now, if we agree to this here and let this go, somewhere along the road, three,

four or five months, someone sitting in the office can change this and say,

okay, we have to wear helmets. It’s out of our control. Or they may say, no, we

don’t need helmets. Two years later, somebody can come back and review the

regulations and change it. So once that happens, this here could be a see-saw.

If someone one year wants to have it done, they can do it; they can take it out.

Because

if it’s in the act itself – and I’ll just explain it to the people – it’s out of

the control of this Legislature; it’s in the control of the minister and the

people who are making the regulations, not the act. So this is why it’s

important – and I know there may be motions put in to have this taken out. I’m

going to support that. I will say that now, Mr. Speaker, because we can’t let it

just go in regulations and depend on someone who, all of a sudden, wants to

change it.

Once you

keep it out of the act, then we can say, okay, it’s a dead issue. But if we keep

it in the act and go through the regulations, this may come up every year, year

after year. It may change back and forth on a regular basis.

I urge

the government to consider – and I understand there are going to be amendments

made – I urge the government to look at changing that amendment, because it is

an issue, the major issue that we find – that I’ve been receiving – on this

here.

A lot of

people who are family orientated, have been driving for years, they all go

across the province. They use their vehicles a lot, and they in turn feel that

this is more of a safety hazard wearing one, than not wearing one because of the

conditions that you put yourself under.

Some

part of the act that I see is that if you’re moose hunting, you don’t have to

wear one. So if I’m moose hunting, I’m drive 50 kilometres along a road, I don’t

have to wear one, because, okay, I’m moose hunting. Yet, if some family members

are taking – three or four families are in their bikes and they’re driving 30,

40 kilometres, they have to wear one.

If I’m

going turr hunting, I don’t have to wear one. I can go all day and not wear one.

AN HON. MEMBER:

I don’t know where you get

your turrs.

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible.)

E. JOYCE:

But I’ll ask you a question,

though. I know people say turr hunting, how many people would say: I don’t need

any helmet because I’m going turr hunting today? That’s my point. All you have

to say is I’m going turr hunting today.

It’s

very easy; there is no one who can say that you’re not. This is the issue with

the regulations that once you start putting it in that –

AN HON. MEMBER:

Partridge hunting.

E. JOYCE:

Partridge hunting or turr

hunting, same thing. Partridge hunting is another example. This is an example,

I’m saying I’m going partridge hunting today; you don’t have to wear a helmet.

Yet, the families that are going across the province – I won’t belabour that and

I ask the minister to consider that because that is the biggest issue that I

heard on the West Coast for that. I know there are a lot of other Members

getting emails also on the West Coast about that also, because I know they’re

being sent around.

The

other

part I would look at is the enforcement. It’s tough; it’s actually tough.

I know a lot of us out here, when we hear from towns about lack of enforcement;

it’s tough on the enforcement people. It’s more of an education process. It’s

hard to blame it on the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary or the provincial

enforcement officers or the RCMP because Newfoundland and Labrador is a large

place, very large. I just use the RCMP as an example. There is one member in the

nighttime going, say, from Pasadena out to almost Stephenville; got to go to the

North Shore, South Shore, all that area and there are a lot of times there are a

lot of people going on the roads with their bikes and it is hard to enforce.

I see in

the act that someone going along the road at less than 20 kilometres up to a

distance of one kilometre to catch the road – I agree with that – and have to

haul off if there are vehicles coming. That’s a great move, if we have that that

would stop a lot of people from accessing the roads and the woods in the

province.

Also

with the training, I know it was brought up a couple times, myself and my

colleague, the Member for Mount Pearl - Southlands, discussed it. The new

training under 16, that’s good. But I’ll just give an example: most vehicles are

supposed to be registered today; they’re supposed to be registered and have

insurance. What if somebody don’t have it and now they say, okay, I want to go

register my vehicle? Say they’re 60 or 70 years old, my age, and then they have

to do the mandatory training, even though they were riding the bike.

Is there

any way to grandfather in – if you had some way to look at that, to grandfather

someone in, even though they could probably be using an ATV for a number of

years around. That’s something that was brought up and discussed.

The

other thing is fines. I agree with the hefty fines. I don’t know how we can make

it any stronger with the fines because if you deter people through fines – and I

know through Service NL with the vehicles, when you impound vehicles and then

they have a cost for the storage, it is another deterrent for that.

Another

thing, I say to the minister, that was brought to my attention and will be

brought up during Committee is the trailers. There’s a size put on the trailers.

The question that was brought to my attention: The size of the trailers carrying

the wood – is that when you cross a highway or is it in a woods road? A lot of

people hauling their wood out in the wintertime but some use it in the

summertime when they come out with the Side By Sides, hook in the trailer, and

it might not be as long and some of the wood may be sticking out. It’s mainly on

a woods road and they put it aboard their truck. That’s another issue that was

brought to my attention that I’ll bring up and I’ll speak about.

I’ll

save some of the questions that I have for the Committee stage, but all in all

this is a great step to improve the safety in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador. Hopefully, with the education and a bit more enforcement and people

understanding the seriousness of these speed demons – some of them are very,

very fast machines. Also we need regulations, about 150 metres, the sight for a

car to cross the road; I agree with that. That is a major issue crossing any

highway. That is a very, very big issue.

All in

all, the vast majority of this bill, I will be supporting, but I just wanted to

raise those few concerns that I received from people that passed on input to me

from that. These are very responsible adults, families who travel a lot on our

systems in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank

you, Speaker, for the opportunity. I thank the government and the Opposition for

giving me an opportunity to speak on this earlier.

Thank

you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

Thank you.

recognize the hon. the Minister of Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture.

D. BRAGG:

Thank you, Speaker.

I look

forward to my opportunity to speak on the new ATV and off-road vehicle

legislation introduced here by the minister today. Like the Member opposite, I

pretty well grew up on either an ATV, whether it be a Ski-Doo or a dirt bike, a

quad or now a Side By Side. So I guess I can speak of it from back when I was

seven years old, I probably rode my first Ski-Doo as a driver, and the first

machine we had was a 12 horsepower and you cut your lip open more times trying

to start the thing than you did of anything else. If anybody remembers

compression on that thing, it was like starting a bomb.

Like the

Member for Ferryland said, probably broke a few laws over the years because,

back when I was seven years old, no one hardly knew what a helmet was. I mean,

you go out in boat, no one knew what a life jacket was. We’ve changed so much.

The machines have changed so much, Mr. Speaker. We’re gone from a

single-cylinder machine now to multiples; sometimes a four cylinder wouldn’t be

outrageous to expect to see in some of these machines.

The

Member opposite talked about training. When we learned on what we had, it was

very small machines. I know I live in an area and I spend a lot of time in the

wintertime on my Ski-Doo and in the offseason on either the quad or the Side By

Side, in which you would see a lot of younger people.

The

minister talked about the accidents that happen out there. A lot of the

accidents and a lot of the reason it happens is anybody, and myself included

from time to time, being irresponsible on the machine. Any other way, you

probably would never have an accident. I know it’s safe if you stay home, but

the recreation and getting outdoors – and this is not meant to cripple that

industry whatsoever.

If you

go to Port aux Basques, anybody been to Port aux Basques lately, you’ll see

where there’s a diversion from the ferry that goes up by the Tim Horton’s store

because now we’ve attracted ATV users to this province and off-road vehicles. We

have a system that can take you from St. John’s to Port aux Basques and a good

many loops in between. So we have something here that we need to grow and

continue to grow and ensure that the people use it in a safe manner.

If you

look at the safety, I really get the safety aspect of it. I saw too many

accidents where people have done too many dumb things. A lot of the times you’ll

get away with a close call, but when you don’t get away with a close call is

when you become a stat, and that’s not what we need. We need to be responsible

on these machines. Big or small, it doesn’t matter.

So if

you look at towing – we’ve all did it. I can remember we had a 16 Elan. I don’t

know if you guys are old enough to remember those little plastic super sliders

that you strap onto your boots, but we basically invented water skiing on snow a

long time ago. I mean, you’d be skimming by picket fences like something half

crazy and lucky we all got our limbs to walk from it today. If you look at the

safety bit, we’ve evolved so much and where we’re are, we need to look at it.

Side By

Sides – I bought a new Side By Side last year. So I understand the Side By Side.

I understand the mentality. I understand the full-on enclosure, the rollover

protection and all that sort of thing. But it’s like anything, I guess, the

safest way you can be anytime is use all the safety equipment you got. But I

think the safest thing you can be is a very, very responsible driver out of it

all.

I’m

going to pick somewhat on the parents because sometimes – and I take

responsibility for this. I think my daughter was eight when I bought her a

Bravo. Now, I bought her the Bravo and a helmet because I did realize by that

time that she needed a helmet. They were piled on that three and four thick,

whatever they could get through and go on all day. So 20 years later, no

accidents from her, she’s evolved from a Bravo up to a bigger machine, but a

helmet is always front and centre whenever we take our snow machine – always.

Whenever we take the quad, the helmet is always there.

The

safety of this is vitally important. For those people who don’t use a machine, I

can tell you when a helmet is really unsafe. It’s when you cross a highway. If

you cross a highway with a full-face, full-fledge helmet on, you’ve lost your

vision on both sides. If you would look at any avid snowmobiler, you would see

them grab hold of it by the chin and either push up the front or wear it that it

comes down like this; that opens up their ears and their peripheral vision. It

may not be the greatest thing to do but if you look at crossing a highway, it’s

the most dangerous time you’re on a Ski-Doo because people come at you 60 miles

an hour, pretty quick.

We saw

that over the years. We hear it in the news. You cannot avoid it in this

province because we have so many crossing. That’s almost like telling a moose

don’t cross the road. I’m responsible in my department for enforcement. You have

to be realistic. It comes back again to the safety, the knowledge of the

operator.

someone has never purchased a snow machine before and they come in to the

dealership and you deck them out in the best of gear and the best of helmets,

with all the communication systems, without their knowledge, they are going to

do so much wrong trying to learn it’s not even going to be funny. They’re going

to endanger my life coming towards them because they’re going to think they’re

going to get on this – I know of people got on it for the first time, pinned it

in to get across the road, ended up in the trees. Took a full crew of people to

get them back out. Not saying they’re close to me, but I know them very, very

well. But it happens.

That

comes from, to be honest, the training side of it.

AN HON. MEMBER:

Inexperience.

D. BRAGG:

And inexperience, 100 per

cent. That can come in all ways.

One of

the Members opposite said if Grandfather had a Ski-Doo and gave it to me, I know

what I’m doing on the Ski-Doo. I may have never registered because it was still

in Grandfather’s shed when I used it. There’s going to be some of that. I think

our target is definitely the younger people as they come up and the very, very

first-time buyer has to be a target. We need training for that.

I’m sure

the dealerships, they’ll tell you where all the gadgets are. When I got in the

Side By Side for the first time, the guy selling it to me sat in the other seat.

Not much unlike when you buy a car now, because there are that many gadgets on a

car you almost need to bring it home, sit in it, wait until it gets dark and

figure out where everything is to. That’s almost where we’re to with those new

machines.

The

technology is so much. There are that many gadgets. There are switches for this,

switches for that. When I operate mine I tell my wife, you’re in charge of the

wipers, because that switch is way over there. I’m focused on the road. Not that

I’m driving that fast – full disclosure, Mr. Speaker, but I’m not as young as I

used to be when it comes to that.

So all

the way through when we look at this, we have to agree, safety has to be the

number one thing. There’s not one of us here that one of our friends either (

a) had an accident that they hardly walked away from, or (

b) had such a close call

they are so lucky to be breathing today. Every one of us.

Now,

there’s a culture that goes with this too that we’re never going to address. We

all know what that culture is in the backcountry, in the off roads. There are

things that go on there. People need to be responsible. I call it out for what

it is.

Again,

if you’ve been around it, you see it. Everybody who’s in the country would know,

we collect together, we gather together; we’re social people when it comes to

snow machines.

Out our

way now you have groomed trails. There are groomed trails in much of the

province.

The

snowmobile association is probably the most structured of the associations for

off-road vehicles, because they have a system of trail passes. They improve

trails; they cut brush. But the ATV or I guess the quad, for lack of a better

word, you can take that to the brink of wherever you can walk. But most people

on Ski-Doos today are on groomed trails or cut trails down to cabins.

So this

is vitally important. Are there going to be asterisks of this that everybody is

going to agree with? Yes, for sure, there are going to be. Everybody’s never

going to agree with everything. But this is a good start to get us where we need

to be. We need to make sure – and we need to practice this everyday. Training

and safety should be done.

You take

when the season opens up, you hear talk about early in the season a lot of

motorcycle accidents as soon as they come out. A lot of my friends drive

motorcycles – I never did – and they say cars don’t respect them, but after a

while you get used to a motorcycle as the year goes on.

You’ve

got a snowmobile in your garage that most people are only going to pull out on

the weekend. I mean, I pass it when I hit the highway to Gambo on a Friday, if

I’m going towards St. John’s, there’s a mass exodus of trucks and trailers going

to the West Coast for some of the best snowmobiling they can find. That’s people

who haven’t been on it since last year. But you need to just build yourself into

it and get used to it.

You

can’t go from zero to 60 on those things without having a feel for the machine.

It doesn’t turn like a car, let’s be fair. I go back to the 12 Elan, that didn’t

turn at all. I mean, if you didn’t put your foot down on that thing you weren’t

getting around the corner. Today, you just need to know what your machine can do

and what your abilities are. I think that’s the most important thing of all

this.

We can

never bring in legislation so that people would know exactly where that’s to. I

can’t stress safety enough. The enforcement side of it. We can all say there’s

not enough enforcement. We got to be smart enough to enforce ourselves. We’re on

the highway; we know what the speed limit is so we don’t double that. So if

we’re up in the backcountry, we should know what our ability is.

I think

the important thing to get out of this – and I direct this to the minister – is

that people understand we’re not trying to dissuade them from using their

machines. We’re encouraging them to use their machines. We’re encouraging them

to get out, but be safe and practice safety at all times.

With

that, I take my chair that I already got and I thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

SPEAKER:

The hon. the Member for Terra

Nova.

L. PARROTT:

Thank you, Speaker.

I echo

some of the comments made by the previous speakers with regard to safety. I’ve

seen first hand what it’s like for someone to get injured on snowmobile and ATV

and I would say it’s paramount that we enforce a lot of our actions ourselves

when we’re operating these vehicles.

Because

it’s fresh in my mind, I’ll go right to what the Member for Humber - Bay of

Islands was discussing with regard to helmets in Side By Sides. The word culture

came up and changing – having a culture of safety.

When

Bull Arm was on the go that was their catch phrase: culture of safety. One of

the first things they did was enforce mandatory hard hats for everything, as did

the Vale In