April 10, 2006 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Ray Hunter, MHA for

Windsor-Springdale, replaces Felix Collins, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's,

and Kevin O'Brien, MHA for Gander, replaces Kathy Goudie, MHA for Humber

Valley.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in Committee Room 5083.

CHAIR (Ridgley): Order, please!

Good morning, everybody.

My name is Bob Ridgley, Chair of the Social Services Committee. I would ask

the members of the Committee to introduce themselves.

Just a caution, this is a little bit different from the House of Assembly.

You actually have to turn on the microphone before you begin to speak.

With that, I guess, we will commence right here with Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for the District of Conception Bay South.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, MHA for the District of Windsor-Springdale.

MR. O'BRIEN: Kevin O'Brien, MHA for the District of Gander.

MR. PARSONS: Kelvin Parsons, MHA for the District of Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. R. COLLINS: Randy Collins, MHA for the District of Labrador West.

CHAIR: That would be all of the Committee members.

I ask the minister, then, if he would either introduce his staff or ask them

to introduce themselves.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a pleasure to be here once again. I would like to introduce the Justice

Senior Executive. On my right is Ms Debbie Paquette, who is Acting Deputy

Attorney General and Deputy Minister of Justice. Debbie is replacing John

Cummings, who is now the Channing Chair with Memorial University. On my left is

Ralph Alcock, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Public Protection. On

Ralph's left is Theresa Heffernan, who is Director of Financial Operations. To

Theresa's left is Marvin McNutt, who is an avid rollerblader and Director of

Adult Corrections for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Behind me, to

my left, is Billy Hickey, who is the Communications Director.

I reviewed the minutes of our meetings for the last two years and, as a

result of that review, I have invited today - and I am very honored that they

have come - Pamela Ryder-Lahey, who is the Director of Court Services for the

Provincial Court of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Newman Petten, who is the

Executive Director of the Newfoundland and Labrador Legal Aid Commission. I

thought, rather than answer Randy Collins' questions myself, I would get

someone here who knows what they are talking about.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible) Don.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Oh, I am sorry. I saved the best for last.

Last, but not least, Mr. Don Burrage, who is Director of Litigation for the

Department of Justice.

OFFICIAL: Mr. Curran (inaudible).

MR. T. MARSHALL: And Mr. Chris Curran, Assistant Deputy Minister of Civil

and Related Services.

Is that everyone? I think that is.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

We will blame all of that on the fact that it is Monday morning.

Just a caution again. If any of the staff are going to reply to a question,

please introduce yourself unless it is continuous questioning. Then, I guess,

there would not be a problem there because they will understand who it is, but

if it is just a sporadic or interim response it would be best for the sound

people if you would introduce yourself.

With that in mind, I would ask the Clerk to begin debate by calling clause

1.1.01.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

I would ask the minister, if he has some introductory remarks, he might begin

at this time. We will follow that, then, with the questioning.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do recall two years ago that I gave some introductory remarks which went on

and on and on, something like another Celine Dion song. What I will do today is,

I will hit the highlights and will start off with reference to the Royal

Newfoundland Constabulary.

There will be forty-four new positions with the RNC. There will be twenty-six

officers coming out of the officer cadet program. In addition to those

twenty-six, there are going to be eight new officers. Three are drug awareness

officers: one for St. John's, one for Labrador West and one for Corner Brook.

There will also be five officers hired from the experienced officer pool at the

RNC. There is the creation of a canine unit in Corner Brook with one additional

officer. There are also nine civilian positions consisting of four dispatchers,

two clerk IVs, an administrative officer, a clerical support and a clerk-typist

III. There is funding for the historical deficit in other earnings. There will

be a replacement of the dog handler in St. John's.

As I mentioned earlier, there will be twenty-six new positions hired when

they graduate in May. There will also be funding for the new class that will

commence, the final class of the three-year program. There are sexual assault

nurses in emergency funding, and there is funding for the crystal meth working

group.

With respect to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, there are twenty-two new

positions. There will nine new officers: one in Grand Falls-Windsor District,

one in Trinity-Conception District, one in Deer Lake District, and one in the

community of Nain. There will be two drug awareness officers. The RCMP presently

have drug awareness officers in St. John's and Labrador. There will be two new

ones: one in Central and one in Western.

I know everyone will be pleased to know there will be three new highway

traffic officers on the roads of this Province. There will be two operational

communications positions. There will two part-time clerical positions: one in

Forteau and one in Mary's Harbour. There is also operational funding for

maintenance and operations such as fuel increases, property rentals, health,

medical and standby. There is also money for the crystal meth working group

recommendations.

The RCMP run a number of vacancies over the years. There is funding in the

budget to fill nine of those vacant positions, so that will certainly lead to

increased police presence in the Province.

In terms of legal aid, there is an additional $1.1 million for legal aid.

This comes out of a recommendation of the Legal Aid Commission and a report on

the Aboriginal Law Project as prepared by Jenny Reid. There will be four

solicitors: two in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, one in Clarenville and one in St.

John's. There are two secretaries: one in Stephenville and one in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay. There is also increased operational funding for salary

increases, accommodations and lawyer disbursements.

There are eleven new positions approved under the budget. There will be a

senior policy analyst to develop a translation

interpretation strategy involving

Aboriginal justice, strategic policy and planning. That was a commitment made

when officials of Justice attended the Aboriginal Law Project in Sheshatshiu

last year. There will a senior policy financial analyst retained to monitor

federal-provincial agreements, in particular the RCMP agreement - we are

presently negotiating a new RCMP agreement; the original one will expire in 2011

- and also to deal with legal aid, to help us monitor funding or lack thereof

from the federal government with respect to legal aid. There will be an

occupational health and safety manager in human resources in the department.

There will be two commercial lawyer positions in the Civil Law Division. There

is a legal secretary position in Civil Law, a new Crown Attorney in the Criminal

Law Division. With respect to Access To Information and Protection of Privacy

there will be a solicitor, a senior analyst and a legal secretary position to

assist us in bringing in the privacy provisions of the ATIPP legislation. There

is also an estates officer in the Supreme Court.

New funding initiatives: there will be department-wide salary increases for

everyone excluding the RNC, Provincial Court Judges and adult corrections. There

is funding to host the Federal-Provincial Territorial Justice Ministers Meeting

which will take place in Corner Brook, in Humber Valley, in October of this

year. We will be hosting the Heads of Prosecutions this year. There is an

expansion of treatment programs for sexual and domestic violence offenders. That

will be brought out to our correction centres other than where they presently

exist in St. John's and Stephenville. They will be brought to Central

Newfoundland and to Labrador. The same with the Offender Employment Skills

Programs, they will be brought to Labrador and Bishop's as well.

There is funding for the expansion of Unified Family Court. As you know, the

department has, for some time, been seeking the appointment from Ottawa of four

additional Unified Family Court Judges. They have not been appointed as yet, but

we have decided to provide the courts of this Province with additional remedies

to offer ancillary justice services. At least that will show our commitment to

the feds that we are indeed anxious to move forward with this initiative.

There is funding also for external legal counsel for the Hebron project. The

firm of White Ottenheimer & Baker has been retained for that purpose. There

is funding for the Electoral Boundaries Commission. There is funding for

something new: circuit courts for the Supreme Court. They will circuit to

Labrador. That will be new. I think there was $29,000 or $30,000 in the budget

for that. There are debit and credit machines for the Supreme and Provincial

Court. There is reclassification for the Supreme and Provincial Court Clerks.

Last year, we expanded court security, deputy sheriffs outside of St. John's;

it was expanded to the Provincial and Supreme Courts in Corner Brook and the

Provincial Court in Stephenville. This year, that program will now be expanded

to Supreme and Provincial Courts in Happy Valley-Goose Bay and to the Supreme

and Provincial Courts in Grand Falls-Windsor. Also, body armour, Kevlar vests

will be provided for our sheriffs officers.

With respect to capital, funding has been provided to proceed with the

planning, design and the commencement of construction of a new combined court

facility in Corner Brook as well as additional vehicles and operational

equipment for the RNC.

The decreases in the Budget compared to last year relate to a decrease in

funding for the Lamer Inquiry and the removal of one-time funding for Country

Ribbon. Increases in the 2005-2006 Budget to Revised primarily relate to funding

provided for settlement of a motor vehicle accident. Supplemental supply went

through on Friday for that; that was $4 million. Also, there were salary

overruns, particularly in Adult Corrections, Provincial Courts and the RNC, and

there was a special warrant for that, as well as special investigation funding

for the RNC.

Revenue projections - and I will conclude with these comments - on the

federal side, the per diem rates and the number of days billed for federal

(inaudible) were higher than budgeted receipt of payment for outstanding federal

claims for 2003-2004 and 2004-2005. On the provincial side, receipt of prior

years' expenditures from the Registry of the Supreme Court, there was an

increase in reimbursement of overtime and fees for services of the RNC offset by

a reduction in revenues due to a delay in proclaiming the victim fine surcharge.

I believe that covers the highlights so we are now open for questions, Mr.

Chair, at your convenience.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Minister.

Just as a suggestion to all members of the Committee who will be asking

questions, in fairness to everybody - the staff, the minister and other members

of the Committee - if you have questions to ask and you have to leave, I think

it would be fair to everybody if you asked your questions rather than leave and

come back and rejoin the questioning. We have had occasions where people have

left for an extended period and then came back to the Committee meeting to

rejoin the questioning, only to ask questions that had already been dealt with

during that person's absence.

I guess it is not a rule of Committee but I will make it as a strong

suggestion, if you have questions to ask, speak and then forever hold your

piece, if you have to leave, just, I guess, in fairness. Do you understand what

I am saying? Because it is just not fair to everybody, I don't think.

We will lead off the questions with Mr. Collins.

MR. R. COLLINS: Good morning.

I want to thank the minister and officials for being here this morning to

answer any questions that we may have. I would like to start off, Minister, by

asking if you have any idea what the costs are to the RNC detachment in Labrador

West, where we do not have a resident judge, for transporting prisoners for

court appearances in Happy Valley-Goose Bay versus the cost of having a resident

judge in Labrador West.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Mr Collins, I do not have the number for the police. I

do have it for the Provincial Court, for the Crown Attorney's Office and for

Legal Aid, but I regret that I do not have that information for the police. I

can undertake to provide it to you today.

MR. R. COLLINS: Okay, because it appears to me, when I see them

travelling a lot, generally it is two officers and a prisoner, I know it has to

be quite costly with airfares and hotel rooms and everything associated with it,

plus the absence of the officers in Labrador West while they are in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay for a day or two with the court appearance. So, I would

appreciate getting the answers from you at some time if you could.

MR. T. MARSHALL: We will call the Chief.

OFFICIAL: Yes, we will look after that.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Would you have that? You wouldn't have it?

OFFICIAL: No, we would have to get that compiled.

MR. R. COLLINS: With relationship to RNC versus the RCMP, if an RNC

officer requests a transfer, does the Province pay for the transfer costs, like,

for his or her relocation?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I believe we do.

MR. ALCOCK: There are provisions in Labrador for officers, based on

certain time periods in which they are resident in Labrador, to request a

transfer. In the majority of cases that I am aware of, we certainly pay for

transfer both in and out of Labrador, yes, for the RNC.

MR. R. COLLINS: Would that be something that happened over the last

couple of years?

MR. ALCOCK: No, it has been a long-time requirement, is my understanding,

that the RNC would pay for this.

MR. R. COLLINS: Because I do know of a case where a person applied and

was accepted for the detachment in Labrador West but he would have had to pay

his own relocation,

whereas if it was the RCMP it would have been paid for. That

was about two years ago.

MR. ALCOCK: You may be referring to a new officer, is that correct?

MR. R. COLLINS: No.

MR. ALCOCK: I would have to follow up on it. Given the circumstance, all

I can say to you, Mr. Collins, our policy generally is that officers transferred

in and out of Labrador, their transfer costs are paid for. If there are

exceptions to that in terms of a specific case, and something unique to that

specific case, I would have to check on the details.

MR. R. COLLINS: How about an officer who is transferred? I understand,

with the RCMP, if an RCMP officer is transferred and they own their own home,

after a period of time, if they cannot sell their home, then somebody buys it.

Would that be true?

MR. ALCOCK: The RCMP operate under a federal government policy in terms

of the sale of their residence. I am not familiar with the policy in that

regard, that someone - for example, the federal government - would take

possession of the property. Again, we would have to undertake to find that out

for you. I do know that RCMP officers have stayed in their detachment for

extended periods, have been subject to transfer and stayed in their detachment

for extended periods, while they have attempted to sell their residence. Again,

it is a detail of federal government policy that we can undertake to provide to

you.

MR. R. COLLINS: If that were a federal government policy, would this

Province still pay for it?

MR. ALCOCK: The transfer policy for the RCMP is variable depending upon

where the individual may be transferred. For example, there is interdivisional,

there is interregional and there is international. So, if the individual is

transferred within the Province, the division or the Province would pay a

certain percentage of the costs.

As it particularly relates to the purchase of the property, again I would

have to look into the detail of that. I suspect not, that we would be required

to pay some piece of the property. Of course, obviously, buying the property and

reselling it, any cost would simply be the difference. Nevertheless, you are

asking about detail of federal government policy and I have to check that out. I

have to check out whether or not, in fact, we pay some piece of that. I am not

even sure we pay any of the purchase cost if, in fact, it exists.

I am sorry I cannot be more clear, but that is as much as I know at this

time.

MR. R. COLLINS: The court judge, has there been any consideration to

putting a resident judge back into Wabush courthouse?

MR. T. MARSHALL: We consider it every time you ask me that question, but

MR. R. COLLINS: Have you decided to do it yet?

MR. T. MARSHALL: As I have previously indicated, based on the numbers

used by the Provincial Court in recommending the establishment of a Provincial

Court district or a Provincial Court centre, the number recommended is 1,500

cases. At the present time, I understand there are not enough cases in Lab West

to justify that.

I do know that there are now two openings, two vacancies, in Provincial

Court, or there have been two indications of retirements, and Provincial Court

is now advertising for two new judges, one for Labrador.

CHAIR: I am just saying, Minister, you could leave your microphone one, I

guess, for the duration.

MR. R. COLLINS: Did these numbers change? At one time we had a resident

judge for years, so did the numbers change that they were not able to have one?

MR. T. MARSHALL: You had a judge prior to 1991, I believe. It was Richard

LeBlanc. He was transferred to Corner Brook. Since then, Wabush has become a

circuit court like many other circuit courts. My understanding is it used to be

served by the judge out of Corner Brook originally, and now it is served from

the Judicial Centre of Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

I understand, as a result of one of the vacancies now, there might be a

change in which centre will now provide the judge for the circuits into Lab

City-Wabush. It is my understanding that as a result of that there will be

increased coverage in that the time a judge will be in Lab City-Wabush will

increase.

Pamela Ryder-Lahey, who is the Director of Court Services, can probably give

you a clearer answer that I have just given you.

MS RYDER-LAHEY: Good morning. I will just move over here so I will be

closer to the microphone.

Thank you actually for the opportunity, because I know this comes up

frequently in public accounts every year. It is a pleasure to be here to be able

to actually speak to the court statistics.

1991, I guess, was the last year we did have a resident judge in Wabush. The

caseloads were in the thousands back in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Unfortunately, I only grabbed statistics back to 1995-1996, but it does give you

a ten-year coverage and flavor of the statistics. That was the last year

actually that we saw them in the four digits. There were 1,080 cases in

1995-1996, and it has continued to drop. Last year, in 2004-2005 - and by the

end of April I will have the 2005-2006 statistics for you - but last year there

were 572 cases in total. That included adult, criminal, youth, family and small

claims. With 572 cases, by way of comparison, Placentia which is also a centre

without a resident judge, their caseload was 745. That doesn't have a resident

judge and is circuited one week per month by the judge from Grand Bank.

In terms of comparison, the caseload is not there to justify a full-time

judge. If we had a full-time judge in Wabush, that judge would actually be

required to travel and be away from his family and be on travel status for at

least 2.5 weeks of the month just to be able to give that judge a full-time

judicial workload.

MR. R. COLLINS: A lot of the things that we have seen in this Province

recently, everything is not determined by caseload or anything else; geographics

have played a role as well.

MS RYDER-LAHEY: Absolutely, I agree with you.

MR. R. COLLINS: I am glad to hear that we are getting better, don't get

me wrong, but it is still an inconvenience to the people there as well. It goes

back to the question I asked earlier, the cost to the system by having the RNC

and whoever is charged with the travel that they involve in (inaudible)

MS RYDER-LAHEY: I think one thing that we all need to keep in mind is

that, when you talk about criminal workloads, not every criminal offence or

every offender is taken into custody, and therefore they do not have to travel

outside of the area. We do circuit there one week per month. Only the people who

are in custody would have to travel. We do have video conferencing capability in

Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MR. R. COLLINS: Good, you mentioned that. Okay, carry on.

MS RYDER-LAHEY: I am just going to go right into that, actually.

We have put in a submission, actually, which - we still do not know the OCIO

budget yet, if we are getting an expansion of video conferencing for the other

remaining court centres. We now have video conferencing capability in seven

court centres around the Province, including three of the Supreme Court centres.

If we get it in Wabush -

MR. R. COLLINS: You've got it.

MS RYDER-LAHEY: We've got it?

MR. R. COLLINS: You had it.

MS RYDER-LAHEY: No, that was a pilot project through Smart Labrador. When

that pilot project ended, which was July 31, 2005, that was not within the power

of the Province to say we keep it or we do not keep it. That was a funding

initiative, as I understand it, that was funded by Industry Canada, partly by

the Province, and then that was really an initiative to make rural areas such as

the remote sites in Coastal Labrador accessible on the World Wide Web and

through the Internet and through video conferencing. There were a number of

initiatives all sort of tied up in the one program called Smart Labrador.

MR. R. COLLINS: But, the hardware for doing video conferencing is all in

Labrador West.

MS RYDER-LAHEY: It is there. It is what they call the old TeamStations,

and they are not actually now compatible with the new equipment. In fact, we

just had a video conference between the St. John's Provincial Court and the

University of Alberta on the Robert Parsons matter, which was very highly

publicized. There was a witness who testified out there. In fact, the University

of Alberta was using the old TeamStation equipment and we had actually technical

difficulties connecting to them through the bridge at TETRA. The bridge at TETRA

has been upgraded to a software. When we get into technical talk, I am going to

tell you, I am not the most literate with the technical pieces.

MR. R. COLLINS: I won't know if you're wrong.

MS RYDER-LAHEY: Well, I wouldn't want to mislead you.

I just want to make sure that you understand, though, with the technical

upgrading of the software, that the old TeamStations are no longer compatible.

In fact, Smart Labrador put their equipment up on auction, or are putting it up

on auction, one or the other, and we looked at: Would it be wise to recommend to

the RNC to purchase that equipment? In all honesty, we can say it would not be a

wise investment at this point. It would be better to look for the funding for

the new equipment to make sure it is compatible.

MR. R. COLLINS: Up at Legal Aid, Minister, is there going to be a legal

aid lawyer assigned to Labrador West?

Thanks, by the way.

MR. T. MARSHALL: No. Historically, there were very few applications for

legal aid in Labrador City West. I guess that is a function of the type of jobs

that were there and the prosperity that was there.

MR. R. COLLINS: What year are you talking about there?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I am saying historically, but then the demographics have

changed. They have changed in recent years. You have people retiring, you have

children and families living in Western Newfoundland who are unable to get work,

and you have some separated families who continue to reside in the area, so the

applications for legal aid services have increased. There were 142 applications

in 2005. This year, 2006, there were 157.

In considering the need for a legal aid office, obviously the Commission

looks at the demand for service, the availability of other justice services such

as resident judge and resident prosecutor. At present, of course, Labrador City

and Wabush do not have either of those. All legal aid offices are, in fact,

located in judicial centers. Based on the number of applications that have been

received or approved, it is very difficult to justify having an office

infrastructure and a full-time lawyer and support worker working in this area.

The lawyers servicing Western Labrador have come from other legal aid

offices. A substantial amount of the work is performed with lawyers from the

Stephenville office and supplemented on an as-needed basis from other offices.

The delivery of services to residents of Western Labrador is similar to service

as provided to other circuit courts that are serviced by the Provincial Court of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

The Commission feels that, in order to justify the opening of a legal aid

office staffed by a full-time lawyer and support staff, there should be 175 to

200 approved applications compared to the ninety-four approved in 2005 and

forty-one approved in 2006. The up front costs of opening an office would be

estimated at $25,000 with annual operating costs of $215,000.

Newman Petten, the Executive Director for the Legal Aid Commission, is here.

Newman, would you like to add anything?

MR. PETTEN: Unless there are other questions.

MR. T. MARSHALL: I beg your pardon?

MR. PETTEN: If there are other questions, I can answer them.

MR. R. COLLINS: Anybody who has a case and is being represented by legal

aid, I noticed in the budget there was an increase of one support staff in the

legal aid office in Stephenville.

MR. T. MARSHALL: That is correct.

MR. R. COLLINS: Is that due to cases from Labrador West?

MR. PETTEN: No, that is a support staff person. We have four lawyers in

Stephenville and only two support staff. The extra position in Stephenville is

for a legal secretary.

MR. R. COLLINS: I would imagine a legal secretary would be involved with

the filing of files and that on behalf of the legal staff, would they?

MR. PETTEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR. R. COLLINS: So, you have an additional how many cases, you say, from

Labrador West now approved last year?

MR. PETTEN: Approved last year, the year just completed, was forty-one

applications for Labrador City and Wabush.

MR. R. COLLINS: You have forty-one cases in Stephenville that you did not

have the year before that.

MR. PETTEN: All of those forty-one cases would not all be done by

Stephenville. We have lawyers go there from Happy Valley-Goose Bay and from St.

John's. You see, within legal aid, we represent both sides of the case,

particularly in family cases, so it is not unusual for us to have two lawyers

travel into Labrador. Even if you had a person stationed there, you would still

have to have somebody fly in there.

MR. R. COLLINS: I understand what is happening, but it goes back to my

same argument about the geographics. If you have a legal aid lawyer set up

somewhere in the Province and somebody can drive there even in four or five

hours, or get a ride there, then they can speak with them. What happens with

legal aid lawyers, what I am being told - I don't know; I have never used the

service - is that they fly in one day, they meet with you for about two hours

before you go to court, and then you are into the courtroom. I tell you, people

are not feeling that they are getting their due representation that they

deserve. They are just not getting it. I mean, they are in Labrador, their files

are in Stephenville, and the lawyer is in St. John's or in Stephenville. What

kind of a system is that when it comes to providing justice to people who

desperately need legal services?

MR. ALCOCK: Most of the people that we end up having a lawyer fly in and

consult with an individual, and appear in court, that is normally a situation

where it would be on a first appearance and it would be normally Duty Counsel.

If that individual wished to have a trial or further appearances then the lawyer

would prepare and would communicate with the individual by telephone prior to

going there so that, when they went to do a trial, they would actually be

prepared and would actually have had some conversation with the clients and with

the witnesses that the individual wished to call.

MR. R. COLLINS: If I were going into a courtroom, I certainly would not

want that the only preparation I had was with a lawyer over the telephone. That,

to me, does not meet justice. Why wouldn't there be, if there were a legal aid

person in Labrador West - and, granted, the cases may be down, but it goes back

to the other things we talked about, the geographics - if that lawyer travelled

once a month, for a week a month or two weeks a month, from Labrador to

somewhere else, what is the difference? What is the difference in leaving

Labrador West and coming somewhere else than leaving here and going to Labrador

West?

MR. T. MARSHALL: There is no difference.

MR. R. COLLINS: There is no difference. There is one key difference: you

have at least two weeks a month where the lawyer is there and clients can see

them.

MR. T. MARSHALL: The travel costs, the legal aid travel cost in 2004-2005

was $18,000.

MR. R. COLLINS: It is the same cost to travel from Labrador West to Goose

Bay or Labrador West to Deer Lake as it is Deer Lake to Labrador West.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Exactly.

MR. R. COLLINS: The other thing on that is - and I know, because I have

talked to people at the women's centre there and, I tell you, this is one of

their big issues, one of their big concerns. I can tell you from them, on behalf

of them, that this is the one area - of all the things they deal with - that is

causing the most problems.

MR. T. MARSHALL: We have heard that all over Newfoundland and Labrador,

that the legal aid system was under a lot of pressure. That is why the

government put $1.1 million into it this year.

As I have indicated previously, there is a famous saying that there is no

point having the best legal system in the world if people cannot have access to

it.

MR. R. COLLINS: That is the position we are in now.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Right.

What we did is, at the Federal-Provincial-Territorial Justice Ministers

Meeting, we put that to then Minister Cotler and we asked him - and I was the

one who asked the question - would he and his colleagues provide more funding

for both civil legal aid and criminal legal aid in Canada? Because what we have

in Newfoundland right now, we have gone from a situation where the feds were

paying 90 per cent of the cost of legal aid and we were paying 10 per cent, to a

situation where now we are paying close to 65 per cent and the feds paying

around 32 per cent.

We have written to the new government to see what their position is, because

Mr. Cotler indicated to us at the Federal-Provincial-Territorial meeting of

Justice Ministers in the Yukon that he had been unsuccessful in convincing his

Cabinet colleagues to put additional funding into legal aid and therefore was

unable to respond to the resolution of the provincial Justice Ministers that the

federal government do so.

We have written to the new Justice Minister, Minister Toews, and we are

awaiting a response from the new government to see what their position will be.

Fortunately, the Province did put an additional $1.1 million in this year's

budget to help deal with the pressure. The lawyers and the staff have been

allocated as recommended by Mr. Nick Avis, the Chair of the Newfoundland and

Labrador Legal Aid Commission, and the recommendations of what I call the Jenny

Reid report, the Aboriginal Law Report, so obviously, we have dealt with the

priorities as recommended by the staff at the Commission. Hopefully, the federal

government will now join us in making additional announcements in legal aid

because it is obviously extremely important, not only for Labrador West but

everywhere.

MR. R. COLLINS: I just have one final question.

Did I understand you correctly last week, that you said we would be getting

nine new officers in Labrador West?

MR. T. MARSHALL: No, but it is a good try.

MR. R. COLLINS: How many are we getting?

MR. T. MARSHALL: You are getting either four or possibly five by

mid-summer.

MR. R. COLLINS: That is not bad; the year is not out yet.

MR. T. MARSHALL: That is true.

I had spoken to the former Chief, Chief Deering, and -

MR. R. COLLINS: I did, too.

MR. T. MARSHALL: This comes from the new Chief, Chief Browne.

MR. R. COLLINS: That is better.

MR. T. MARSHALL: We are not sure if he said four or five. I remember him

saying three or four. Now we can say four or five.

MR. R. COLLINS: I thought you were right. Four or five is what I

remember.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Okay, but I am pretty sure it wasn't nine.

I understand there are also going to be five or six going to Corner Brook as

well from the new class, so it is good that we are going to see -

MR. R. COLLINS: Our crime rate is low, and we want to keep it that way.

MR. T. MARSHALL: That is right, exactly.

MR. R. COLLINS: That is all I have to say.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Collins.

I will pass the questioning to Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Good morning, Minister.

On the legal aid piece, how many court-ordered situations do we have now

where someone wanted a choice of lawyer and the Supreme Court Justice has agreed

with that and ordered that they have counsel of their choice?

MR. CURRAN: Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact number, Mr.

Parsons, but in the course of the past year it has been in the area of ten or

so, less than ten.

MR. PARSONS: What is the cost comparison when you have a legal aid lawyer

versus when you have these court-ordered counsels of choice? For example, what

did it cost last year for these ten court-ordered lawyers?

MR. CURRAN: I can't give you the exact numbers but I can undertake to

get those numbers for you. I can say that as a rule it depends on the tariff

that the court orders. We have been relatively successful, I think, in having

the certificates issued at legal aid rates, but from time to time we have not,

as you know. Where the lawyer is retained at a rate other than the legal aid

rate, then these applications, court-ordered counsel, can be quite costly.

MR. PARSONS: I am wondering if you could, in fact, give me, for the last

year, the number of cases that did have court-appointed lawyers, what their

scale was that was ordered, and also the type of offence that it was ordered in.

I understand it has happened in a couple of murder cases, but other cases where

it may have been ordered as well. Maybe if you can just give me the full

breakdown on those cases.

MR. CURRAN: I can undertake to get that for you for sure.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, what is the status right now of the Lamer Enquiry?

MR. T. MARSHALL: With the Lamer Enquiry we are simply waiting for

Commissioner Lamer to provide us with his written report.

MR. PARSONS: When do you figure we will be getting that?

MR. T. MARSHALL: It is due by the first of June.

MR. PARSONS: The RNC: In the latest Auditor General's report it seems,

notwithstanding having some extra money to put into bodies and recruitment and

so on, that there are some significant problems there from a financial

accountability perspective.

I wonder if you would like to comment on that issue?

MR. T. MARSHALL: In this Budget we have addressed the points raised by

the Auditor General. One of the criticisms was the fact that police officers

were occupying what he felt could be positions that could be performed by

civilians. As a result of that, we placed funding in the Budget for nine

civilian positions in order to enable the RNC officers who have been occupying

those positions to get back into operational positions; in other words, provide

more policing. I believe that some of them, however, are officers who might be

on soft duties for medical or sick leave reasons. We have tried to address the

recommendations of the Auditor General, and I believe we have done so.

With respect to financial comments, can you give me some specifics?

MR. PARSONS: Well, for example, the overtime issue continues to be a

major one.

MR. T. MARSHALL: There are two major issues of the RNC. There is the

overtime issue and the sick leave issue. What we have done on the management

side is that we have put additional management positions into the RNC, including

an Executive Director of Finance, David Hickey, who used to be Director of Human

Resources in the Department of Justice. He has gone down and taken the Executive

Director position. There is also a full-time Manager of Human Resources who has

now been hired. I cannot recall the name. There is also a Director of Finance

and a Vehicle Fleet Manager. We have asked the RNC, specifically, to address the

sick leave issue and provided them with the managerial resources they need to do

that.

MR. PARSONS: Instead of just managerial - I note, for example, page 380

of the Auditor General's report under the heading of Sick Leave, a very, I

thought, damaging statement broaching and verging on something fraudulent. I

mean, officials of the RNC had identified in the Mount Pearl detachment that

members were working overtime on their days off and going on sick leave on their

scheduled days of work. That is a pretty damaging statement. It seems like there

is some deliberate intent on the part of the RNC members to beat the system. I

mean, do you feel it is sufficient to address the Auditor General's concerns

simply by hiring a manager? I don't think the Auditor General made that

statement without some factual background. What, if anything, has happened with

respect to following up on this issue? Because if that is the case, it is a

deliberate attempt. We have more than just a management issue.

MR. T. MARSHALL: The Chief of Police was directed to come in and discuss

the comments and some matters involving overtime. I discussed it with him

personally, as did senior officials of the department. We directed that the

necessary corrected action be taken to specifically monitor this overtime in

view of the comments made by the Auditor General and in view of facts that had

come to the attention of the department. Ralph, could you -

MR. ALCOCK: The Department of Justice, I guess, we as executives,

certainly share the concerns that were generally expressed by the Auditor

General as they apply to both sick leave and to the excessive amounts of

overtime that have been incurred.

The new Director of Human Resources has been instructed to focus on issues of

sick leave, why do we have the significant amount of sick leave, what kind of

policies are in place to deal with it, what kind of policies do we have and what

kind of initiatives can we take in order to ensure that individuals who are off

on any type of leave are monitored and that they return to work in an

expeditious manner? We also have an additional person who we are about to hire

who will focus on return to work and return to work strategies for officers.

We share with the Auditor General and yourself, Mr. Parsons, the concern with

the amount of sick leave that has incurred at the RNC, and are attempting to,

shall I say, get to the bottom of it, to resolve any issues that are outstanding

and assure that people who are on leave are there for valid reasons, and attempt

to get anybody who is off on leave for any extended period back to work at the

earliest possible time.

MR. PARSONS: I think there have been thoughts for years that there might

be some abuses of the system, but that bold statement by the Auditor General

suggests that there are, in fact, people who are deliberately, fraudulently,

taking advantage of the system. Whatever the normal policy is of getting sick

leave, for example you are off three days and you have to get a note or

whatever, that is obviously not working when it comes to the RNC, given his

statement. It seems to more than just a case of monitoring. It almost seems to

be a case where you have to change the rules as to how you get your sick leave

rather than just say, we are going to monitor it next year and see what happens

again.

MR. ALCOCK: Excuse me, Mr. Parsons. I do not mean to indicate that we

were simply monitoring. I think that the RNC and the headquarters of the

Department of Justice are much more proactive than simply monitoring a given

situation.

Yes, it is of considerable concern. The RNC follows policy in regard to sick

leave which is government-wide policy. There are certain rules which government

has established within the Department of Justice, Forestry, Natural Resources or

whatever the case may be, which equally apply to the Royal Newfoundland

Constabulary. An issue of changing the rules is an issue of changing the rules,

it would seem to me, for government in its entirety. What we have do, I think,

with the RNC and any other area of the Department of Justice which is incurring

some difficulty or causing us concern, is try and get to the bottom of it and

resolve the issues, which we are attempting to do.

MR. PARSONS: Purchasing, in a more financial vein, I guess, rather than

human resources or a behavioral vein: The Auditor General points out the

contravention of the Public Tender Act, in that it does not always call public

tenders for purchases greater than $10,000 and does not always obtain either

three quotes or establish a fair and reasonable price, for purchases $10,000 or

less. In fact, he makes reference to forty-two purchases in excess of $10,000

and found that seven had not been publicly tendered. That is a pretty

significant proportion of your tendering that did not comply with the Act. It is

not a case of one out of forty-two, we have seven instances. That is a pretty

high percentage.

Who is in charge of overseeing that the legislation, the Public Tender Act,

is in fact followed, the Financial Administration Act? Somebody down there must

be responsible when this stuff happens. Where does the buck stop?

MR. ALCOCK: The part of the issue as it relates to the Auditor General's

report, I believe, and as it relates to what the Department of Justice has been

doing, is a timing issue. The issues raised by the Auditor General are valid,

and we are obviously concerned. What we did, within the last twelve to sixteen

months, was put a number of positions in place that would deal with these

issues, deal with these difficulties, deal with these acts, or deal with the

work that was being done that was in certain cases inappropriately done. There

is a catch-up time, I guess, whereby the effect will take place based upon what

resource we have put in place. We have tried to deal with the issues, both

financial and human resources, but it is the timing as it relates to when the

Auditor General's report comes out.

At this particular point in time, the Chief Executive Officer of the RNC is

the executive director, but that position has only been in place for a year and

the Auditor General's report, of course, goes back. The individuals who we

have put in place haven't had an opportunity prior to the release of the

Auditor General's report to deal with all the issues that were identified by

the Auditor General. We expect that to change.

MR. PARSONS: Was there a particular incident reference - he does not get

into the details. He probably did with your department. Was there an incident,

during the public sector strike, where even though you have a standing order for

certain things it was routinely breached, and they did not go to the company

with whom they had the standing order, they just went wherever they felt,

willy-nilly? For example, the rent-a-car piece: I understand there was a

standing order with Enterprise Rent-a-car, but they just went willy-nilly

wherever they felt like they wanted to rent, in contravention of the

long-standing policy that you abide by the person with whom you had the standing

order. Was that, in fact, correct?

MR. ALCOCK: Mr. Parsons, I cannot answer to the specifics of that. Again,

we will undertake to get the information. It is an issue whereby, recognizing

the problems that were taking place down at the RNC, we had put in place

management resources, and in the Budget additional clerical resources, to deal

with those issues. Those management resources are in addition to ensuring the

type of thing which you referenced which may have happened - I cannot say for

sure - but also to ensure that proper policies are in place to ensure that it

does not happen again. We are working on changing.

MR. PARSONS: I wonder if you could also undertake to provide me with -

during the public sector strike, I understand, there was in excess of $40,000

spent on one particular corner store for lunch meals and whatever for the RNC

who were called in. Could someone identify what corner store that was?

MR. ALCOCK: presume, if there are no Freedom of Information issues there,

which I really need someone else to answer, then certainly we will provide you

(inaudible). It is probably a matter of public record and therefore available to

you. I cannot speak to the specific amount or the corner store, but certainly we

have no hesitation in providing anything that is public information.

MR. PARSONS: Continuing with the -

MR. T. MARSHALL: Earlier - you were talking about overtime in particular

- you said that putting people in positions was not enough. With respect to

overtime, I can tell you that the Chief of Police was, in fact, directed to

change the policy in approving overtime down at the RNC. That happened a number

of months ago. So there have been directions to improve the policies, not just

monitor.

MR. PARSONS: On the information technology piece with the RNC, just a few

of his comments - anybody reading this, of course, who does not have an

understanding maybe of how big an operation the RNC is, would get the impression

that they are in serious trouble talking about information technology: No formal

disaster recovery plan, electronic data not backed up, backup tapes not stored

in fire resistant containers, backup tapes not regularly tested for data

integrity, access codes not changed, passwords inactive. We are dealing with an

agency that deals with some pretty sensitive types of information, yet it seems

that their standing when it comes to information technology is out of whack

here. Has there been anything done to address these concerns?

MR. T. MARSHALL: With the RNC in general, what government has done over

the past three years is, you have seen four major initiatives take place within

the RNC. Initially, there was dealing with the RNC's recruitment and their

human resource needs. Government instituted a police officer cadet program that

will train and provide the RNC additional officers. Last year, there were

twenty-eight officers trained, graduated from the program and hired by

government; all twenty-eight. There were sixteen women and twelve men. This

year, there will be twenty-six graduating this summer all of whom will be hired

by the RNC, and next year we hope that the full complement of thirty officers

will be trained and hired. As I mentioned earlier, there are another five

officers who are going to be hired from the experienced officer application

pool, and there were six last year who were allocated to a drug squad by the

Chief of Police.

Secondly, we have reorganized the managing structure of the RNC. We have

increased the number of superintendents, changed the number of inspectors and

provided these new positions that I referenced earlier such as a new Executive

Director, a Director of Finance, a Director of Human Resources and a Vehicle

Fleet Manager, all with a view to increasing the ability at the executive level

and the managerial level of the RNC.

In addition, in this Budget we address many of the concerns that the Auditor

General has, in fact, raised. We certainly take what the Auditor General has

said very seriously. As I said, we met with the Chief of Police, we raised these

concerns of the Auditor General with the Chief of Police and we have placed in

this year's Budget, 2006-2007, funding for positions that will deal with many

of the criticisms made by the Auditor General.

In addition, we have appointed a new Chief of Police, Deputy Chief Joe

Browne, who is a Newfoundland and Labradorian who has had twenty-four years of

experience with the police force. He has been Deputy Chief since 2001. He has

now been appointed as the new Chief of Police.

You can see, that over a period of three years many initiatives have been

taken in order to help the RNC to become a world-class police force.

As Mr. Alcock had mentioned, the executive there has not really had enough

time to deal with a lot of the comments the Auditor General has made, but deal

with them they will.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, referring now to the Estimates book on page 218 ,

under the heading Civil Law, 2.1.01. I noticed last year you had budgeted $2.48

million and spent $1.74 million. This is line .05, Professional Services,

2.1.01., Civil Law .05, Professional Services last year, budgeted $2.480

million, actually spent $1.740 and bumped up this year to $2.730 million. I

believe you made reference in your introduction about White-Ottenheimer being

retained for Hebron-Ben Nevis. Is that the heading where that would have fit?

The expenditure you anticipated for -

MR. T. MARSHALL: The $250,000 in blue in the second column from the

right?

MR. PARSONS: I do not have your book.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Okay.

MR. PARSONS: I just have the black on white one.

[Laughter]

MR. T. MARSHALL: Incremental funding of $250,000 is provided for external

legal counsel to assist the government's team in the negotiation of commercial

arrangements with the Hebron audit.

MR. PARSONS: I guess given the recent developments concerning Hebron-Ben

Nevis, everything is supposedly wrapped up. I guess that will be changing.

What portion of the $2.730 million did you anticipate would be taken up with

the Hebron-Ben Nevis?

MR. T. MARSHALL: $250,000.

MR. PARSONS: And the balance? Because that still leaves you $2.50

million.

MR. ALCOCK: That particular account is used to fund professional

services, primarily lawyers, in a considerable number of areas. For example, it

would deal everything from issues relative to Terra Nova and Aboriginal issues.

There is a significant amount of the money in that account for what is

considered general civil division purchase of legal support services for

numerous lawyers that are hired throughout the year. It is all of the major

projects which the government would be undertaking, or the majority of the major

projects government would be undertaking, as well as a general kind of account

for the provision, the requirement of legal services for the civil division

department.

MR. PARSONS: I notice under the same heading, 2.1.01.09, last year it was

$3 million revised to $7 million. I take it that increase of $4 million is what

we dealt with in the House last week in the Supplementary Supply Bill 3.

MR. T. MARSHALL: That is correct. That was $4 million.

MR. PARSONS: Could you give me some idea of how many cases government

actually settled last year?

MR. T. MARSHALL: Mr. Burrage can handle that one.

MR. BURRAGE: Last year we settled seventeen cases.

MR. PARSONS: Totaling?

MR. BURRAGE: Some of those involved cash payouts, some of them did not.

There were twenty-four cases which were discontinued against the government

without cost. There were twenty-eight judicial rulings in our favour and three

judicial rulings against government.

MR. PARSONS: Is the information privileged as to whom you settled with?

MR. BURRAGE: Not as a matter of course. In some of the circumstances,

depending on the nature of the settlement, the individuals asked that the amount

and their names not be identified, particularly in a case, for example, of a

sexual assault. They just do not want their neighbours to know. As a matter of

course, unless there is a Freedom of Information issue associated with it, we do

not have confidentiality agreements.

MR. PARSONS: Could you undertake to provide a list of the ones that you

can? I am not so much concerned with the names of the individuals involved but

the law firms who represented the individuals. Who were the counsel involved?

MR. BURRAGE: Yes, sure, that would not be a problem.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, the court house being planned for the West Coast

in Corner Brook.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Can you give me some idea of the timelines involved in terms

of design, tendering, construction, opening date, that sort of thing?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I will give you my understanding. I know when it comes

to building government buildings sometimes it is difficult to understand and

follow why things happen and when they happen. They never seem to happen as fast

as you want them to happen.

I am advised that the Corner Brook Court House will be constructed over three

fiscal years involving two construction seasons, and that is based on the

understanding that construction would start in the fall of this year. I

understand that the group who are involved in monitoring this project will be

meeting Thursday of this week in order to come up with more definite timelines.

I understand there is a possibly of a design taking place this summer with

construction to start in the fall. Others might recommend something that is

called the design build. Based on the information that I am given, two years

from September.

MR. PARSONS: This will be a government-funded, government-owned facility

unlike the one in Grand Falls, I understand, which is a lease-type arrangement.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Yes, it is my understanding that it will government

build and government operated. There has never been any discussion about any

other way of doing it.

MR. PARSONS: Being from the West Coast, of course, I have no objection to

the new courthouse in Corner Brook. What might have happened though? I

understand the priority used to be Clarenville. I agree priorities often change

for different reasons, but I am wondering what might have happened. I know a few

years back Clarenville was a big pressure point in terms of a new provincial

court building there.

MR. T. MARSHALL: With the assistance of the Chief Judges of the three

courts, we put together a courts management advisory board so that we would

ensure that the proper amount of consultation in terms of dealings with the

courts would take place, and one of the things we talked was courts for the

future. Given the financial climate at the time our government first took

office, Chief Justice Greene of the Trial Division made the comment that, look,

we may not get courts for ten or twenty years, but he recommended that we start

the planning process now so that when government was in a financial position to

fund new courthouses we would be ready to go. We agreed with that and we put a

number of committees together. I then asked the Chief Judge of the Trial

Division and the Chief Judge of the Provincial Court what their priorities would

be in terms of where the next court should go. Chief Judge Reid of the

Provincial Court indicated that if we were going to build a combined court,

supreme and provincial, that Corner Brook would be priority. Chief Justice Green

of the Trial Division felt that they were all priorities, so either one was fine

with him. On that basis, the decision was made to go ahead with the Corner Brook

Court House.

I did, subsequent to that, view the provincial court in Stephenville. When I

saw that court I did call Chief Judge Reid and ask was he sure that Corner Brook

was the priority. The response was that if it is going to be a combined court

house, a provincial and supreme, that Corner Brook was the priority. If it was

going to be just a standalone provincial court then Stephenville would have been

his priority. We decided to go with the combined court.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, a couple of weeks ago I believe I heard, through

the media, that the provincial court judges tribunal was in session, was due to

clue up. What is the status now in terms of the tribunal submitting its report

and when might we expect to see it in the House?

MR. T. MARSHALL: My understanding is that they have finished their

hearings and they are now writing their report.

Chris, when would you expect us to receive that?

MR. CURRAN: We received a letter from the chairperson of the retired

Judge Jeffrey Steele last week and he indicated that they are exercising their

best efforts to have the report prepared by the end of this month. He said it is

a large and complex undertaking but they are doing their best to meet our

deadlines.

MR. T. MARSHALL: I now recall that I think Judge Steele indicated that

they had to have their report done by April 1, and that has not happened.

MR CURRAN: That is correct.

MR. T. MARSHALL: That will now require an amendment to the judges act,

the Provincial Court Act, to permit that. I think the letter did indicate that

they were not able to meet that deadline.

MR. PARSONS: Normally, when the Tribunal does report, what are the

timelines in terms of the department bringing it to the House?

MR. T. MARSHALL: If I recall correctly, we have to file within fifteen

days of receipt by me of the report, or by the Attorney General of the report.

We have to file within fifteen days. I am not sure of the time frame in which

the government has to respond or lay a response before the Assembly.

OFFICIAL: Thirty days.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Thirty days.

MR. PARSONS: Given that it does not appear that the House will be open

beyond May 18 or 19, do it see it coming before this spring Session or it will

probably be the fall now? Now you have to amend the Act itself, I guess, plus

bring back the report, study it and bring it back.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Make recommendations.

MR. PARSONS: If you are not going to get it until the end of April you

only have about eighteen days of operational time in the House to get it in

there.

MR CURRAN: The Chair indicated that they were exercising their best

efforts to get the report to us as early as possible. Depending on when we

receive it, there is still an outside chance that they will be able to make the

Session in spring. This was always the department's intention and, I think,

the intention of the commission, but they have these exigencies to deal with. If

we get it early enough, we will meet the deadline. Otherwise, as you say, you

may have to push it out until the fall.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Minister, the penitentiary: I guess, anyone who has

toured the penitentiary comes to the quick conclusion that we need one. It is,

of course, a major, major financial decision to make. What are government's

thoughts, or the departmental thoughts, right now on the penitentiary? Have you

been considering replacing it?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I would agree with you, that the penitentiary is coming

to the end of its useful life. I am advised by my officials that it is certainly

manageable. I should point out that improvements are being made. A new roof was

put on one of the buildings recently, and we are now engaged in putting in new

mirrors and new desks. We are renovating the showers down there now.

Marvin, what else are we doing now just to make the living conditions more

acceptable?

MR. McNUTT: Actually, Mr. Alcock and I and others, the deputy as well,

met with Transportation and Works just last week, and we put on the table a list

of seven items that we believe to be absolute priorities, items that should be

expedited if we were to achieve some standard of reasonable living for the

inmates in that facility. They did agree at the table that, in fact, they would

begin to undertake certain initiatives immediately. There were others which were

a little more costly, or substantially more costly, such as refurbishing of the

cells themselves. That item is going to cost in the range of $250,000. What we

agreed to do then was submit a prioritized list of the cells that should be done

immediately, and we have received that as of Friday. That would be forty-three

cells.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Obviously, if we are going to build a new prison, it

would take some time before a new prison was constructed. The reason I asked

Marvin to answer that, to give you that information, was to show that we are

taking steps to deal with conditions at HMP right now.

Government has written to the federal government to determine whether there

would be interest from the new government in joint sharing or joint cost of a

new combined federal-provincial prison for the Province. We have written to

Minister Day. We pointed out the reasons why we think they should joint with us

on such a project, and I have asked for a meeting with Minister Day in order to

advance that initiative forward.

MR. PARSONS: I realize the number of inmates fluctuates, of course. How

many are we carrying now, on average, in a given day?

MR. T. MARSHALL: Where?

MR. PARSONS: In HMP?

MR. McNUTT: On any given day, that would be a typical day Monday to

Friday, we would carry 150 to 160 but then we have to accommodate the

intermittents on the weekends now. We have a special purpose unit for that. It

is only used on the weekends. Right now, we could expect another twenty inmates

then to be admitted for the period Friday night until Monday morning.

MR. PARSONS: Sometimes overcrowding seems to be an issue. Do you have

many incidents now of overcrowding?

MR. MCNUTT: Periodically, yes we have. Within the Province we are

operating at 10 per cent over, what we would call, our rated capacity. At HMP,

we have 145 single-bed cells, but then within that number we have thirty which

are double-bunk. We have installed an extra bunk in thirty of them so we would

have 175 beds. It is not a good practice but it is manageable right now. We are

very concerned about the numbers increasing perhaps. We have witnessed the

increases in terms of the remand population in particular, which has been a

trend right across Canada actually. Last year, the courts in this Province also

imposed twice as many federal sentences as they had the year before. We do not

know why. We are trying to determine why that is the case. We go through these

experiences, and right now, I guess, one of the major reasons for the increase

in the remand population is that we have thirteen people who are in our custody

for homicide-related offences.

MR. PARSONS: What percentage of our prisoners right now are federal? I

know that was always a good money generator for the Province, taking some of the

feds' bodies.

MR. MCNUTT: It is actually, and increasing. Typically, between HMP and

Stephenville we would have approximately sixty on any given day, and we receive

$200 a day for each of those from the federal government.

MR. PARSONS: The Salmonier property: I guess the decommissioning is

complete now. What about the property itself, the actual acreage, buildings and

so on, where does that sit now, with Justice or Public Works?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I believe we have transferred that over the

Transportation and Works. Is that correct?

MR. McNUTT: It was one of the few buildings in the Province that was

actually maintained by a line department, but through a minister's order it

was transferred back to Transportation and Works.

MR. PARSONS: I have nothing further. Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Parsons.

We will pass now to Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Minister, for the opportunity. Seeing that Mr.

Parsons asked that question on the facility at Salmonier Line, when I went

through the minutes from the Estimates last year I asked the very same question

and received the same answer, but usually when you go back to some of the

departments you get different feedback.

I am wondering, has the Department of Transportation and Works ever contacted

your department again for any legal advice on how to proceed? I know last year

there were two or three scenarios that possibly could happen with that facility,

there was agriculture and other people who were interested. I am just wondering,

from a legal prospective has that department since it was turned over to them

ever come back for legal advice on how to proceed, to dispose of it, or anything

along those line?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I am not aware. I remember inquiring whether we still

had responsibility for the lands or whether it had been transferred to

Transportation and Works, and it has now been confirmed for me that it is

Transportation and Works. I suppose it is possible. We do have lawyers in the

department who provide legal advice to that department, although I thing

Transportation and Works has their own lawyer on staff.

OFFICIAL: They do.

MR. T. MARSHALL: The answer it probably no.

MR. BUTLER: Just some of the subheadings. Under 1.1.01 - and that is

generally the few questions I have - 1.1.01, the Minister's Office under

Salaries: I notice for 2006-2007 the budget forecast shows an increase of

$51,200 in Salaries. I was wondering what position would that be? Is it just the

one position? Permanent? Part-time?

MR. T. MARSHALL: Subhead 1.1.01, the Minister's Office?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, under Salaries, 01.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Salaries. You are talking about the increase between -

MR. BUTLER: It shows an increase of $51,000.

MR. T. MARSHALL: The Minister's Office or Executive Support?

MR. BUTLER: The Minister's Office.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Page 215?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. T. MARSHALL: You are talking about an increase or a decrease?

MR. BUTLER: An increase of $51,200 for the Budget 2006-2007.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Could you give me the two numbers? I do not see a change

of $51,000. Salaries went from $186,000 to $194,000.

MR. ALCOCK: Maybe I could clarify. I believe you are on Executive Support

as opposed to -

MR. BUTLER: Yes, I am sorry.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 1.2.01. I said 1.1.01.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Right. We are talking about Salaries in Executive

Support. Are we talking an increase of $52,100 or the savings of $51,400?

MR. BUTLER: The increase of $52,100.

MR. T. MARSHALL: That is incremental funding to provide - I mentioned in

my opening remarks we are hiring a senior policy analyst to perform research

into translation services in Labrador as per the Aboriginal Justice project

report. This funding is for that salary increase.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. T. MARSHALL: There is also an analyst being hired to help us with the

Unified Family Court expansion.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The next one is subhead 1.2.02, Administrative Support, in 05, Professional

Services. There is an increase there of $74,800. I was just wondering: Can you

list the professionals who are on contract with that department? That is under

1.2.02.05.

MR. T. MARSHALL: That is a shortfall of $74,800.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. T. MARSHALL: There were increased costs for the criminal code review

board and there were increases in operational costs relative to office of the

Commissioner for Lobbyists. That is the $74,800, right?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

The other one there in the same, 1.2.02, but down under Revenue, it shows the

Revised for 2005-2006 was $340,000 and this year it is $63,000. I was just

wondering what the difference would be.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Is that (inaudible), Related Revenue?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. T. MARSHALL: There were increased revenues that resulted from

miscellaneous refunds, prior years expenditures and increased third-party

liabilities such as car accidents where employees were not at fault. These items

are considered one-time revenues and are not budgeted from year to year.

MR. BUTLER: The other one I have, 1.2.04.07, Property, Furnishings and

Equipment - I know this year the estimate is $1.376 million. Does that have

anything to do with the new courts?

MR. T. MARSHALL: No, the courts are not in that section. That $635,000 is

incremental funding provided to the RNC for the replacement of communication

equipment. Aliant has switched from an analog system to a digital system, so it

will no longer support the system the RNC has. So $418,000 of that is a new

digital communication system for the RNC. The rest of it is four additional

vehicles. There is one for the dog unit in Corner Brook and three for new

officers. Then there is miscellaneous equipment that requires $50,000. It is

mainly that major piece of communications equipment.

The Court House is two sections over, I believe.

MR. BUTLER: My next one is 2.3.05., Electoral Districts Boundaries

Commission. I know it shows an expenditure of $500,000. I was just wondering,

Minister - and you probably referenced this from time to time in the House as

well, but I just wanted to ask the question - will the Commission be completed

in 2006-2007 or sooner than that, and when do you think the recommendations will

be brought before the House?

MR. T. MARSHALL: They are mandated by the Act to complete their report

before the end of the year. We have ensured they would be appointed at a time

and would be given a staff at a time where they can do that. They have now all

been appointed; the staff has now all been appointed.

MR. CURRAN: The staff is in (inaudible) and we should get most of the

staff this week.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Given the fact the previous Commission did a lot of

their work in 2003, although they did not have a chance to finish it, I would

imagine - and I have talked to the Chair, Judge O'Neil - they will have their

work done expeditiously.

MR. CURRAN: Their office is up and running.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Yes, their office is up and running.

Where are they, Chris?

MR. CURRAN: They are over in Pippy Place.

MR. T. MARSHALL: In Pippy Place.

Once they give the report, then government has to amend the House of Assembly

Act. I think the plan is that will happen in the spring of next year so that the

law is in effect, the law has been amended to reflect the recommendations of the

commission well in advance of the election, which is set for October of next

year.

MR. BUTLER: The only other question I have has to do with the Royal

Newfoundland Constabulary. I know you mentioned the new recruits who were coming

on. I think it was twenty-eight last year, twenty-six this year, more next year

and so on. I am just wondering, would you have the figures for over the same

period of time, how many officers will be coming out of the system either

through retirements or whatever other means? I know those numbers are fine, but

is it that many coming out and probably it is only going to balance itself out,

or will we have an increase over a period of time?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I have those numbers, I just do not have them with me.

Going by memory, we have not had the retirements that were anticipated. There

was a guesstimate or an estimate of the number of people who will retire,

because when this program was brought in, obviously we thought we would have

twenty-five a year. I think ten were to replace retirees, fifteen would be new

officers each year. I think what we have seen so far, the retirees were not as

high as anticipated.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

OFFICIAL: We are hiring more, the first twenty-five.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Yes we are hiring more, as I said twenty-five. Last year

we hired twenty-eight, this year twenty-six, and hopefully next year thirty. We

are going above the anticipated twenty-five.

The year before last we hired five or six officers of the chief allocated to

the drug squad. In this year's Budget there are going to be an additional

five. Apart from the three drug awareness officers there are going to be an

additional five which I had assumed that the chief would hire from the

experienced officer pool. There are a number of Newfoundlanders who work for

police departments in other parts of the country and who wish to return. Their

applications are kept on file and there will be five of those hired this year.

Although the chief could elect to, instead of doing that, instead of putting

thirty in the new recruiting program he could make it thirty-five, but I would

suspect that he may want to take advantage of some of these more experienced

officers that will be in this pool.

MR. BUTLER: The only other comment - and this is probably not totally in

relation but I know Mr. McNutt is here and involved with Her Majesty's

Penitentiary in Whitbourne and so on. Out in our area - while you were answering

the question I forgot the name of the group, but more or less what it is, is

they deal with the young people rather than them ending up with a record. I am

trying to think of the name right now.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Youth diversion.

MR. BUTLER: Right on.

I attend their annual meetings on a yearly basis, and I am saying they are

directly related, but I just want an opinion from someone. I saw the good work

that group is doing to get the young person, and the numbers they are receiving

now - I take it they come through, not in my area, the RNC, because they are not

out there, but the RCMP or whoever. That is where the numbers are picked up.

I am wondering what has happened. I am glad the numbers are not up but I know

the problem is not being resolved, whatever the catch is there. I think the

number they gave me was three or four or five or six cases they had this year.

That is wonderful, but know there are more cases out there and I am wondering

why they are not being referred to those people to nip it in the bud. I know of

a couple of cases in my own community, and I have called the RCMP and they have

said: Well, there is really not all that much we can do. I know if some of those

young people got into that system - because I know of other young people who

went there and didn't have to go to Whitbourne. It was a wonderful program and

it is still a wonderful program.

I am just wondering, is there something changing when the feds brought in the

new rules and regulations back two or three years ago, that the RCMP or whoever

do not have the power to do this now? Is there something happening there now,

that you have to get more leeway before you get them in there?

I think there are young people falling through the cracks because of that;

not that many but there are some. I am just wondering if someone could make a

comment on that.

MR. T. MARSHALL: Mr. Chair, Tom Mills, the Director of Public

Prosecutions, has joined us. I think he would be the ideal one to answer that

question.

MR. MILLS: You will have to shut me up on this topic because I can talk

about it for a long time.

What I think you are referring to is what I call the Youth Diversion Program.

It is known by different names. Currently it is popularly referred to as an

Extrajudicial Sanction Program. Our Province has been a leader in the area of

diversion programs, taking young people away from the court system and dealing

with them in another setting, for over twenty-five years. Those are programs

that were set up by what was once known as the Department of Social Services,

and the lead department now on it is the Department of Health and Community

Services through the regional boards. They are based on a community model, so it

is a community group that takes care of these particular matters. They are

referred, actually, by prosecutors to the local community groups.

You are right, that we have noticed a decrease in the actual numbers going

through to different youth diversion programs. I still use the old name. This is

the right across the Province, not just in your area. There seem to be a couple

of contributing factors to that. One is that we have fewer youth, in general, in

the Province than we did twenty-five years ago when we set them up, so the pool

is actually smaller in the number of people. The other, as I said, is that with

the YCJA, when that was set up by the federal government, they enshrined what I

believe was a common law power of the police anyway to simply not charge people,

to simply send people on their way with a warning or a discussion, so there has

been an increase in that now-called warnings or police warnings. We think that

some of those are being sent that way.

There are still a number of cases going through the court system which could

be dealt with, I believe, in a youth diversion type program. It is incumbent

upon the community groups to expand the kinds of young people or offences that

they will deal with. We have seen that, for example, occur in St. John's. When

these programs were first set up, they would only be deal with first-time

offenders, so basically it was a one-shot deal. The St. John's program two

years ago said, no, we are prepared to take them back a second time, so we have

seen an expansion in certain areas. Certainly in your area, if they were

prepared to take other categories of offences or second-time offenders, we as a

prosecution service would be very open to that. There could be more dialogue

about, are there other kinds of cases that could be extended.

The program has been evaluated on at least one occasion and has been shown to

be incredibly successful. The recidivism rate, in other words whether or not the

young person would re-offend, has proven to be very good. The whole model of

using community representatives to interact with the young person, I think is an

ideal model and more effective than the courtroom setting, in my experience.

MR. BUTLER: I think the rate out in our area, with the group that I am

referring to, is 97 per cent to 98 per cent who never offended after.

MR. CURRAN: It is very high, and everyone has (inaudible). Certainly,

that could be explored to see if they want to take a wider group. I constantly

monitor this, actually, because I really believe that is the way to go.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

That is the only questions I have, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Are there any further questions?

If not, then, Minister, before we return to you for closing comments, we will

do our bit of housekeeping. I would ask the Clerk to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 4.2.02 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall the subheads, 1.1.01 to 4.2.02 inclusive, carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.02 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Justice, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Justice carried

without amendment?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, the Estimates for the Department of Justice carried, without

amendment.

CHAIR: The other item of housekeeping would be the minutes from our

meeting of April 5 with the Department of Health and Community Services. I

entertain a motion that they will be passed.

MR. FRENCH: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. French.

AN HON. MEMBER: Seconded.

CHAIR: All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Minister, are there any closing comments?

MR. T. MARSHALL: I would just like to thank the members of the committee

for their usual diligence and congratulate them on the way they do their work. I

look forward to seeing them again next year; maybe.

MR. BUTLER: I guess we can all say that, eh?

CHAIR: Thank you, minister.

Likewise, I would like to thank the committee members for their preparation,

for their questioning, and thank the Minister and his staff for their forthright

answers and professionalism.

This committee will meet again at 7 o'clock tomorrow evening in the House

of Assembly to consider the Estimates of the Department of Education. Until that

time, I would entertain a motion to adjourn.

MR. O'BRIEN: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. O'Brien.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

Thanks very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.