JL • .!. :JO. 39 l?P-ELI!UNARY W11EDITED TR.l\NSCRIPT HCC'SE OF .;SSEMBLY FOR THE ?ErtiOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. tl?.:DNESDi'l.Y, YlOVE!ffiER ::s, 2.9/9

:loverrtber :9, 1979 Ta;:e ~lo. l-124 N!-1 - 1 :-!.r. .Speaker in c.he Chair. ~!R. SF EAKER (Simzns l : Order, p:i.ease! Wi~~ respect co the ~~tter raised late yesterday after~oo~ concerning the bar net being placed during division, I ·.-~auld like to make the :allowing ccm.'rlents. First of all 1 in most other parliaments the bells ring continuously and on a cont~nuous basis and •.vhen they stop of course it indicates that th.e time !'las expired and that also is the time t..;hen the Sergeant-at-Arms will place r:he ba:r.·.

But:, of course 1 to~e do not ha·..re this particular system in au.::- House so we therefore go by t::::-adit:.ion. !l..nd t.1:"aditionally, ~!'le bells ring at the beginning of tne ten minute allotted time, '.-lhich was previously three minutes, and when ::he ten minutes have 2xpired the bell is rung once morE: to signify concb.sion of the ~i~e;~~en the bar is placed. This is the t~adition and i~ fact it ·Nas the •,;ay ~t ..,·as ::onducted :::!uring a division held a f.::.w days ago en ::he .1mendment proposed by the han. member for the Strait of SGlle Isle (H~. Robarts).

And I think what really occurred yesterday ·,;as because of c.'le changes now to ,;:u:r Standing Orde:::-s •,;hich allow agreement pr~or to the ten :ninute expiry, and ~n fact. t:!le:re ·...ras an agre2ment: .J.fter only a few moments, f?Crhaps •...ras a slight oversight on my ?il:::'t and :.:he bell simply -...ras ;1ot rung the second time.

T~is 1 I can as::;t:re hen. members 1 •,;ill not happen again .Jnd,having discussed the ma~-::e:::- wit~ ::he 38r;ean1:-.at-o::.r-:ns,::: ,;m conf:.dent that -::here was no danger .-:.d ;;.nyone ent:er1.ng t..1.e C:!:l.amber ;,s he ·11as qui::.e :;;repared :::o do his .::im:;y if it became necessarj'. Eear, hear!

:>Jo•.:er.>.ber 28, 1.979 :JRAL '\)UESTICNS: >!R. SPEAKER (Sirr.ms) : The han. Leader of ~he Opposit~on. ~1R. JA:4IESON: :·!r. Speaker, I had planned to ask some questions this afternocn on hydro development and I hope t.'l.at you •,tould recognize me later, i::: perhaps the :1inister of >lines and Energy (Hr. 3arry) is in the House. In the interim, may I direct a question to the non. House Leader?

With regard to ::he matter on '"hich I think ::here was general agreement !:etween us :m bot.'l sides, vis-a-•Iis the matrimonial ;?roperty act and ::he publici:::ing of it, has any decision been made ~y c.he goverr'Jnent as to which depart.:nent will be responsible :or co-ordinati:lg and in a sense preparing the material and 'Hill it be ::entered in t:.'"le Depart..cr.ent of Justice or in some t:.lther ~gency of the government? :.JR. 5?EAKZR: The hon. ?~esident of t:.'"le Council. Thank you, Mr. Spea~e~. ~igh~ 3ay to the han.

L~ader of the Opposition, the hon. :1inist:eY of :.tines and Energy was out of town yesc.e::day and I am ho;:;ing he ·,.;ill b-= back in later on !::::efore <:..'1e Question Period. .!1.R. ~EARY: ls he down in aay d'S~poir? :.JR. :1AP.SHALL: ::: ::hi:~k a lot at people ,ue :.;;robably .:l.own in Bay C' :Sspoir ::oda.'f. But i:1 response to ::..'1e ~on. t.eader of t:.."w Cpposition' s quesc:.on, :he :J.ct is ·.mder the ad:ninistration of che :Jepa.ctment. of J"ust:i::e and ~t ~s planned

- ><oveJ:;er 28, l979 '!"ape 1425 ?K - 1 ~t :h~ present tiQe for the Jepar~~ent of .;us'tice ;:o ::akc char;e ,:)f a.i..:. opera::ions "'ith respect to t!1e Act, including -::he ;;::ublica::ion of it. >low '.:l:ey ::~ay :::equire :::!Xpertise outside of the depar~~ent in ~rder co do ~t effectively because this is not a norm~l task of the Justice Depar~~ent, But in answer to the hen. Leader of the Opposition's question, it is the Department of Justice . >EL JAHIESON: ;.p,. JA.t4IESON: ~y suppl~mentary. . ; supplementary. A suppla~entary, the hen. Leader of the Opposition. iiell 1 the han.

Leader of th•~ House ant:.icipated :Vitn the greatest respect ::.o the Depart:nent of Justice ar.d all of its skillt:d and lear:1ed worthies, I suspect t.hey are not the best peoplti! in the 'NOrld fer drafting something which can be read witl1 ease and understanding by 'the majority o:f the ordinary residents of 'this ?rovince 1 including myself. :n t~at light, therefore, ::lay ! ask i.s it the intention of che gove.rrunent, for example, to perhaps enli5t the assist~nce or engase the ser~ices of some ~ind o:f 9rofessicnals and also, indeed, i£ I migh't be so bold as to presume to say sc, perhaps ::he >1inister of Education (Hs. verge) and some o£ !1er people? :.!R.

YeARS HALL: The hen. ?resident of the council. Well, cert.ain!.y, ~1r. Speaker, the hon. :.J.:.n.l.st.er of Sducation 1who has had a leading

part in the for:nulation cf t:us bill and knows the bill much :;;ore fully, I think, than any other ::~E:I:1ber !-!ere .;J.nd :::ertainly ::lOre responsible :or putting it together, ·...:ill be ':.lking a part. :Out, as 1 say, the ultirtate respcns~b.llity ~s with the Jepar~~ent of Just.:.ca. I wi:l agree with the ~en.

Leader of t:~e Cppcsition that they are not geared, the Oepar~':lent of Justice is not qeared for ~he dissa~ination Gf infc~aticn of this type, ~r.d wE.: are -:::e!"tainly going to have t:::J aCdress oursel'les to this particul..1r shis ;::ill,l.nso£ar as chey ::hange the carrent 5tacas que, that every ::easonable e:::ort l.s taken to assur,~ that .1ll o:: c:::e l50,JOO .:al7lili.es in the ;>:::ovince J.r~ fully .::>wa.re of -:he ::ont:e:1t .lnd -:.he .:..n:;;crt :;f the :::;.1.11 3573

:{.tL SPEAKER (SIH!-15): ::-pposi.tion. Tape 2.425 ~ supplementary. ,... supplenent:try, ~he han. Leader o!: t:he ?K - In ~hat :::onnection, since ·we are ::ow at t.lle ,;:md of c!i.e ::nont:h cf ~l'ovember, which for all practical purposes means that t.he c::lock l..s runn.l..ng on this measure so that:: t-here are really ,;;even :nanths, and i.f one e::n:ludes, I suppose, a fal.r nurnber of •Neeks between now and, say, t:he second •,.;eek or so of January, . .,.hat is the ::ur.cent:: state of the preparation of the material? Is there anything in place 7 Or can the han.

House LeQder t:ell ne when the public will gee, in a sense, :..ts first exposure ::.o this kind of lnformation? Because it sea~s to ne1 and I think he would agree,that there is no point in it only l::eccming familiarized to the public on the 24ch. of :.Jay or something next year? The hon. President of ::::e Council. :·Ir. Speake::::, despite the fact ::hat the bill :us passed chi::-d reading and only awaits the assent of His Honour The _,.:.eutenant<~overnor which ""ill be, you k.:;.ow, very shortly 1 .:.t does net come in::o e£ie:::t, of course, until July So that: is a six ::10nr.:h period.

But: I •..;ill agree thac it !.s necessary :::or ::i:i!:O in£or:nat:lon to ;o forth to the public as quJ..ckly as ?OS:>ible. :~ow t!-tere have been general plans Ecrmulatetl. 3573

:Jcverrber 28,1979 :'ape tlo. 1426 :-tR.:~.A?SHALL: =iscussions with respect to a leaflet, if ! a1il using ':he correct word, with a direct r..ail cut to all families in t.'1e Province 1 and I expect that this ·,.;ill be one o£ t!1e ~eans by which t..~e information will i:e disseminated . . tmd also, of course,t.~ere is consideration given to broader rr~dia coverage wit.., respect to it.

So in answer to the specific question of the hen. sentleman 1 ! can only tell him ~~at we are fully aware of the necessiCJ to publicize t.,is bill, to put it in ~s simplistic language as possible, anrl to cover as fully as possible t.,e imoort and intent of the bill. 7he actual specific r.~de of car~Jing out ~~is intention ~as net yet been formulated 1 but I do expect bet·Neen new and t!J.e end of December t..~at it will be ongoing and on it:; ·..;ay and ve:::y shottly thereafter our specific plans ;.till be brought into effect with respect to it. :1..~. JA!-UESCN: im.

S?EASER: (Sin'..ms) Leader o£ t..'le Of:posi tion. ;.;R. J;..N!ESGN: ,;. final supp lerr.en tary. A final supplerr.entary. The han. Really, Hr.

Speak~r, more t:y ..:ay of a su;;gest.icn 1 !::ut I will phrase it as a question: :1ay I suggest to whoever is goir.g to be responsible,t!lat the infometicn ·..:auld at scz:-.e pcint ,in addition to simply stating :he fact-s 1 set up a series of hypot..~etical but never~,eless =eal situations so t..,at people can ~xarnine it and say this is the category into whi:::t ! fit. !t is a technique t!"lat :-tas be"!n used quite successfully by various gcvcr: rr.ent.s with regard tc income tax, fer instance. v:ould the hen. t::-.e Eoune Leader take t..'lat unCer a.d·;iser:~ent so that ~'e can say to a ;erscn if tl;ey :'eaC ':his ~aterial or if ~~ey Deer it en wha~ever meCium it is use~,~his is the one ':hat ::elates to me and t.~is is what !. n-.us-: Co? ~R.S?EAFJ:::R: ~e hen. ?resiCer.t of ~'1e Council. ! thar.k '::~e hoo.

Leader of the Cffcsiticn =cr '::-:e suggestior.. ·,.;e cer'tai::ly •,.;ill take :1.cte of it anC of ccurEe any ot:;e:::: auggest:icns the ';.en. LeilCe:::: may ·.;ish -:o r.',at;:e ~ecause after all ':1e 35~0

~loverr.ber 28, 19i9 Tape ~io. 1426 ,\H-2 :JR. ,:.t;.,RSHALL: has ~~ expertise in communications, in the cor.munications fiela that I Co not ~link any of t..'1e rest of us in our private life has. So that and any ether suggestion he ~ay care to make we will certainly take into ccnsiderat~on. :.!._q. SPEAKER: (Simms) Hen. member for LaPoile followed =Y t.'l.e :1cn. member for 7orngat :1ountains, :1.t'1.. :-tEARY: Xr.

Speaker, r:.y question is for the !1i:Jister of Finance (Dr,Collins) 1 and t.'le .:::eason ! am asking the question I am sure that all o~1er mer.be.:::s have been swamped wit.~ telephone calls and letters !:rc.<n social assu;;tabce 'recipients ,£.:::-om ....,idows and orpnans and sick people and crippled pecp~e who cannot cope .,.it."!. the cost of living ~~d are wondering if ~"!.ere is going to be 3581

:>ovemoer 28, 1979 Tape 1427 EC - l >!?.. :1EARY: any increase for people on social assistance in ~he foreseeable fu~ure. Has the ~nister allocated any of ~~e SlSO ~llion that ?re~~e~ Lougheed was kind enough ~o give ~e hon. gentleman recently? Hill any of t:..1.at be allocated for an increase in social assis~ance payments to people who are forced to live on social assistance in t:..1.is Province? MR. SPEAKER: (Sir:uns) The han. the Minister of Finance. oR. J. cor..r.::is: ~r. Speaker, the borrowing carried ou~ recently was, a.s ""as st:ated, for ~".ree specific purposes. One ;oas for :lewfoundland Hydro?

Well t..'lat clearly does not fit into t..'le category, ! suppose, st.ric~ly speaking, not. in t:he immediate future, of t:..'lose on social assistance, Ultimately, of course, in t:..'le long run, it is t:o ma~e sure ~~at our hydro3lect:ric costs and our hydroelect.ric genera~ion is kep~ w~~~in ~~e n~eds of the Province. Another loan ·..,as :or the NMFC, aJ,d this ""as :a finance various municipal projects to . ..,hie..~ ~"le government is cor.~ittad in the curran: year, and that clearly also does not apply part:icularly to those on social ass~stance.

The final loan was t.'1e S:30 r:tillion ·,...h~c.."J. is co :.:::e used for general budgecarj fH~rposes, particularly, ! suppose, fer capital fundi:J.g, but ;J.evert:."leless, t:.nat is ~o be used for the current fiscal year, 1979 - 1980. !n other ,,...ords, it is to service ~~e res.l.dual aoount required by the 1979 - 1980 Budge':., and ~'lat Budget. did include an increase in ~e payments to ~~ose on social assistance.

If I reme~~er cor:::ectly, the increase was scrne~~ing in the order of 7 per cent over ~::.e previous year. ;~o.,. i:. . ..,ill nat be too lang in ~'ie future •,men .,...e will :1avc ~ consider ~,e Budget far tne com.l.ng JCar, 1~80 - 1981, and ! ~ave no doubt :.•at: ~'1e han. the :1inister of Social S~rvices (:·tr. Hic.'.;.ey) ·,...:::..11 ~e pu~cinq forward a ?lea for his vote, . ...,hich ·...,ill :::.:l.ke into cons:::..ci~rac.:.cn the Cemands ~ace upon his de~art~n:::. . ·!?. •. EARY: :·tr. 3peaker, a supplementarJ . ::..a?oLle.

- Tape 1427 .:::c - 2 rn o~~er words, r would ass~~ from ~~e hon. minis~er's answer ~•a~ ~~e answer is 1 no' ~•d ~~is going to oe a very black G1ristmas for a lot oi people who are ~~err~layed and forced to live on social assl.stance in this Province. rt is rat.her 3583

I wou.l.i like ::.o .lsk ~:1e ::on. r:lini~ ce!' i.: .u.;:; =olleague, tht:: .~J.l.nis::.e.>: oi .5oci.al Services (.,!r. "' Hickey), nas .>.o:;ke:J. ::or ~dditional funds to take c..1re of sin<;le ::-.en .lnd t.·or::en, ·...:::o are fo.!:"ceo ..:.o 1 suy ,.!.i.ve at horr.e with their .;.arents 1 •,.;no are :..:.ne:::ployed 1 ;,r :arced ~olive off ':l1eir .;a.renl'"->-: The gover!".::1ent. so Could the ninister ':ell ·..:s if ais colleague Jus .:~.:;ked for any itd.ditional funds to leeK T.ne han. :·t.:.nister of Fi::ancd.

S~r·.rices t1a.s quite a nu.":lber of ,;;rograr..r.:es available co it .J.nd t.;:ere is ;:;ne, :::ertninly, that is a£ .J. ver"} flexible ;-,a cure that. t.."-,e \:on. ':...lC hen. :-!inis-::.er of Soc.i.a.l S.:rvices i:: how :111 will -::tiS£)Cse of ::nos.;;;

::::J - 2 ::ost o£ livir:g, ·"' ~;:.e ::os:: of 3585 -

- :-lavernber :a, 1979 Tape !-tc. 1~29 D'il - 1 ~ R. S. ~lEARY: automatically get an increase in their allawances,has the government q~ven any consideration to that formula? ~R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. :--!r. Speaker, a ccr:-ection:! did net say that the government had given a vote particularly for distribution to single men or those unemployed single persons. ! did ~ay that the Minister of Social servi=es {Mr.

Hickey) has available to him use at his discretion in terms of emergency services. !n regard to the latter part of the han. member's ques~ion: each year there has been for some considerable time an increase in the ~onies acing to those on social assistance to individual people requiring social assistance in the various catagories, The increase each year is related to the increase in the cost of livina ~ow I did mention the figure of 7 Per cent and believe the cost of livina this year is predicted by some people to ?0 up perhaps 9.3 per cent or something of that order. s" the two figures do not quite jibe, but ryn the other hand that per =~nt had been se= some considerable time ago and ! th~nk it was anticipated that that would approximate the increase in the cost of livinq at the time.

So really the answer to t~e hoc. member's question is that the increases in social 3Ssistance are, as far as can be done,related co the increase i~ the cost of living. The han. member fo: Torngat ~ountains. 'les, :-f:r. ;?peake.:, addressed to che ~inister of ~=anspcrtatio~ and Co~mu~ications ('-1r.2ret:.). on the beginnino. ! received a telec:am sianed by fi?e 35E6

>:oven-.ber 28, l9i9, Tape 14 30, Page l -- apb ~Ltt. tJARP..£~1: operate air Se!:"'J"ices in Labrador, that come December 3::' the :-1inist:nr of Transport: will be ceasing clearing the snow from the Goose Bay airport:. Now, this is going to cause grave danger to the coastal residents from Nain to :4arf' s Harbour because these aircraft:: are used for medical evacuation, police 3rotection, passenger transportation and food and freight traffic.

I am asking ~~e ~inister, if he has not already done, 'NOuld he be i:< contact with his counterpart: in Ottawa - I understand ~~ere are good relationships be~Neen ~nisters on ~'le provincial scene and on the federal scene - t::o see if he will have a change of heart and not stop XOT from clearing the snow this "A inter? :1IL Si?EAK:ER(Simms): '!'he hen. the Z1inister of Transportation and Corn."t'.unications. ~iR. BRETT: Yes, .!>tr. Speaker, this came to my attention yesterday and I have not had J.n opporttmity to :iiscuss it wi'th t..~e staff or anybody alse, but I share the :nerr.ber' s concern.

Hhat he is saying is very t::ue. ;ues;:; this being completely a federal responsibility the most that I can do it ge~ in touch with my federal counterpart in Ottawa, :1=. :>J.azankowski, '-lhich I will do. ::::: can assure the han. :':lember that I will 0e in touch 'Nith the federal :ninister, probably not today, ;,ow, but tcmorrow ::ertainly, and ask that -:..>tat

section of the r~nway be kept open. .:1R. SPEAKER: A supplementarJ. The ~on . the :ner.:ber for Tornga t :.1cur.tains. :-~r. Speaker, :ny suppl.;:r:1entary is, Lf !Jy ;:hance t..'1e ieder::~.l mi!1ist:er i:1 Ot-::awa Lo not as qracious as our prcvi:1cial :ninis:ter, would he cons:id~r using scme of t!:le ,:crr.n:un.ications has in Goose 3ay, Labrador, c:a assis~ :.hose ai:dines is -:his arises, 1.f the federal does not se--2 5it >:o keep t:.l)is

:lovew.ber :s, 1979, Tape 1430, Page apb to having some of ~~e provincial equipment: used? Because, after all, it is a really grave 35:53 -

><ove;r.ber ~8, 1979 7ape No. l4J1 ~a~~ar and it is of ~ery ~uch concern for all portions of Labrador, in ?articular to medical evacuation and 90lice ?rotection and also ?as.senger traffic? >1?.. SPEAKER /Simms) : The hon. !1inister of Trans"Oortation and Communications . .\t.t\ • a RETT : :1r. Speaker, I am sure 'Ne would !:>e 'fery happy to :.io just that if 'Ne had t.b.e equi;:::ment. Unfor~unately c.he only thing ':.hat could clear the runway 'NOUld be snow ~lowers.

The most that we could do with our graders and our dozers ·uould be c.o sort of plow the snow up and, you know, it would continue to pile up and 'Nhen it got so high then we would n.ot: be able to do anything with it. You 'Nould need some equipment to blow !:..'1e snow away. And because we do not have equipment like ':.hat 1 then our forces '#Ould not Oe able to keep the ~unway clear.

This means ~~at it is going co have t.::; :Oe done by DOT or not at all. >1R • .:3?SAKER: ~ember for Torngat. ~J.P.. 'ilARREN: A final supplementary, the hon. :·1!:'. 3peaker, my final supplementary is ::.hat - :naybe ·Hill try anot.her angle - is that ~1CI' are saying it. :.s because oi :unds, chat. is the reason :::.e? are :::losing dcwn t.he portior. ::Jf <::he al.rst.=-i?.

Now, we all know t:hat ::.here is sufficient equir::ment ::here, ::he fC~perty of the federal government, and :.f they are 1cing to ::lose it: :iown because of lack of !:unds 1 .•/Ould our minister look :..nto the ;os.sibilit'J of having ::~is equipment ?rcbu.bly t.r:.msfe!:'red over t.o the pro?incial depart.'nen t., just for t!1i2 \Vin ::er, to make .sure that any dangers does not l!.appen concerning the lives of :::-te :-!R. S?SAKER: T!1e hen. Hr_nis::er :Jf :'r:msport:.at:.ion :=.nd :::::rrmlUnic.:::.tions.

- Tape No. 1431 NH - 2 '::his part:iculur

section of ~unway. !tabe:= chan making a corrmic:nent tl1at we would ?ay far i.t, or operate the equir::menc c:.hat belongs ::o :JOT, I ~,·auld rather :nake the com:nit:ment ::hat I '#l.ll do what: I ::an ::.o encourage the :'ederal minisr.er to Co >1R. SPEP..KEE iSi.mms i: ~he han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. :-!R. 5-0BE!!l.TS: 'rhank you, Y!r. Speaker. :O!y questions, in the absence of ::he :-!inister of Health ,:·lr. House l 1 are for th<;;: ?resident. of the Treasur7 Soar:! and ~hey have to do ·;;::.th the ::urrent 3tatus of negotiations ::.:et'..Jeen ::he emp:!.ayers on one hand, in one :;ense or

cf <1aca .:;;£ ':.:;;,cse ~.4-o ' .. u:icns. Coulci ti1e :::inistcr ::ell t:S, at least to sere sev£.:r.::cen instit'. .. n;icn::s,ta.::;ically )rc::t:.t ",,~1:!. J.ll c:: :: .:.;:;c -

~:.:..:: _;it:.~a::.i.cr., -

_. 2C:>Er''.:2: ;.Cst:i:,.J.l ::..n this Frcvincc ·.-:ill i.;e in a :;osition \;h..::;re lil'.~fully '.-.culd .:::e.J.= \;.:.t..'l :.:e =or a secon::., if no essential er:-. .;::loyees .:an;; collcctivins t:<J.rgJ.inir.s ser.se. So could t:u~ :·ini.ster tell us 35rJ1 -

- :Jovember 28, 1979 Tape 14-33 :.c - :·!R, ?DBERTS: have a lawful strike 'NhL:.'l •,.;auld close ~ffectively every single ;,.ospit.al in t..'"lis Province? The hen. t..~e President of Treasury Board. :m. :1, 'di~DSOR: Yes, Mr. Speaker, ~at is accurate. We could, indeed, have a st:ike which would close all the hospitals. A."'ld as ::.:. !:'elates to essential services, t.here is no provision, aczually, :or essential employees in this case. They are not covered Oy ~~e par~cular pidce of legislation, so t..'"lere are no essential empl~yees ciesignatec at ':his point in time.

The hospitals have been negotiacing wit..~ the ~~ions to designate certain people as essential but it has to be by co-operation, MR. IDEERTS: ;A.R. :l, WI:iDSOP.: :t.,':l. FOBERTS: MR. ::J. W!:IDSOR: I am sorry,"It has to be'• o;: ~iith t..'leir co-opclration. Ti1ere i.s nct.t1ing .::.n the legislatior.? :lo. We are asking t.'lem to co-operate and to desl.gnate i!"ldi vi duals '""i thin a nos pi tal to show '..lS exactly which people they ...,ill be prepared to lea\'e i.n to prcviC.e essential services. In many cases.this has been worked out reasonably satisfactorily. :1R. ?DBER'!:'S: :-m..

SPEA.l(ER: for :..."le Strait of Belle Isle. MP.. ?.OEERTS : !·tr. Speaker, a supplementary. n supplementarj, t.'le han. the ~~~ber Thank you, Sir. ':'he r:tinis ter':; ans'.Jer literally astonishes :ne. It ::.s not often :hat. any of us is ast.onish<Hl !::y an ans·wer, !Jut it literally astonishes me. The minister is telling u.:; that t:...'"le legislation ...,hich t.ne government brought in several years ago ar.d wl'.ich ::.he House adopt.ed, :-.as no provision fer t."-,e designation of essential employees?

Is t:...'"lat a correct. statement? l mean, : do not quarrel 1 but I want to be sure I understand. :-tr. 5£XakCr, -:.:Oe l.e.gi:;la.t.icn Coes f:rov:.de fer that, but ::hese part..tcular -~:::ployees i.e nee ecru! u...'1C.e!r >;:.;'l.a.t. ?ar:::.cular 9iece of let;isla::ion, t..'1ay come ' .. mcie: t-.:1e Public .S.::!rvicc Collec::ive Bargaining Act.

- ~over.ber 25, 1~79 '!'ape 1433 .sc - 2 A final supple~~ncary, ~~e han. the ~er.ber for ~1e Strait of Belle Isle. XR. ROE ERTS ~ Thank you. ;,e nas confused ::;e. The . .,.orkers in hospitals are certified by vir-::.ue of :he Public Service Collective 3argaJ.ning Act, is ::.":.at correc-;? That is what: ! a..'l\ saying, ~.r. Speaker, that ::.'lere i.s noth.ing automatic ~'lere at. the :nomenc. TI-oere are no designated e~ployees. :lR. ?JJBERTS: I know there are no designated e~loyees because :rrf understanding is some action has to be ta.~en by t':".e employers to ::.'le :.a.eour Relations :Soard.

Eut ::.'1e Labour ?.elations Board - new t."lis J.S not t:rf supple:nent.ary, : just wane to be sure I ~now what: I am taL~ing about: and <:.hen if the rru.niscer J<.r.ows '""hat ;c;e is talking about: we will all go on f=cc ::.":.ere. The Public .Service Ccllect.ive Bargaining Act. ~as l.n it: a provision whic.n says chat: t.h'-'! :.abour Relations Board upon - and! not:.ice t.he r:tinist:.er's colleague, the :1ini.s-;e:r: of Labour (:.tr.

Winn) is needing acqul.escence, so t assume ;;o far · .. hat 1 aave said is cor:::ect. - ::.;1at. employers :nay apply - and there l.S no restriction on wt-,at employc:es :r;ay .::;e desJ.gnat.ed as essential. Anycociy ci•.:; Labo<.:.r ?.eL:u:ions Board det:ms ::o ;:;e esser.t.l..J:l is Ceerr'.l.:u to ;:;e ess~nt:.ial :me, ::.l"lBre:ora, loses ~18 :;:;.<~f'.!l <::::ink 1 c :.s, -,.;t::l, l-e: t ::1e 3.5;.;_ t.>Q ques ::.;.on. : ::.ean, ':.:1at ·.:as ~'..lst t.o tri t.o ;et some grocnds laid c>..:t., cecaus;:::, ycu Kr.cl4, ::.f 3535

:'ape 1433 .:::c - 3 :·1?.. :~EAP.Y: 'lou are :::'.::..ght on. :·!R. ROBERTS: ! t'.!link on this one I am righc on. 'dill t..'l.a :niniste:::' tall us whether any 3t:eps are going -;:o be t..:l.ken t.o go ~'".rough tb.e procedures - !:ecause ·.,;e art:: only a mont.'1. away :rom t.ne tine 'Nhen we could have every hospital e::::ect.ively closed.

And ! will o;,ay to t..'le :ninist:.er, ::::om ...,hat. ! =ecall of :::1e :1alcyon clays .,..hen :: was Ainister of ctealt.:.;, in the far distanc ;;;ast .,..hen <:..'lings •,.;ere done ::.et.ter and differently, i£ t."lese workers wichdraw their services, it. 'Nill result., :-!r, S9ea.~ar, very ·.;,uickly, in every .:>ingle hospital in t,.'1is ?rovince ceas.::..nq -:.o Pe able co provide anything like acceptable or r.ornal services. So what is going to be Cone about t.'1.is essential services end of it? >1R. SPEA.K.ER: (Simms) The hon. tile ~IL'1iSter of Labour anC.

The hen. l'f.ember is absolut.ely correct:., v: ::ow..::se

- ~:over..ber 28, l?i9 Tape 1434 ?K - l :A..r. Dinn: A~plications have been ~ade to the Labour Relations Soard over the ;ast =ew years to get people designated as essential employees in cases ~f strikes. ;.ffi.RCBERTS: under the law? :JR. D!NN~ power. >lR. ROBERTS: .:!R. \1INDSOR: And the LRB do have t.'le power Oh,yes. And the Labour ~elat~ons 3oarci does have the So I did not need to be astonished. !'la, no. r said that. they are not designated now .

But the fact o£ the matter is what the m~nister r~s said is ~ue also in that they have not been designated, and the proble.'!l has been is that every time there is a request to the Labour Relations Beard it is challenged thrcurb the courts. What? :.1P.. DIH~: Yes.

It goes :rem the Lal::our Rela ticns Beard, the challenge ~s ~de fro~ that, an afpeal is made to the courts, and we have never beer. able to arrive at: a .for:r.ula whereby pe:Jrle can be designated as essential. \1e :uve gone tl-..rough se-;-12.ral proceGS8S now, one is i::y jab, the other is by designating th~ emt,::layee by :tame, and so on, and eve=y t::tme an cssent:.:..al employee has been requested by the hosp~tals or 1nst:.itutions or 'Nhatcver - The employers, - t:he e.."'",ployers ,yes. it goes to the :abour ?.elations Board and has been challenged, and ?1as been a.;?pealed, and, of cou=se, the last discussions that I have f'.ad with che Chairman of ::he :abour ?.elations Soard and '""ith p2ople in ~he de;;art:ment,;.;e have arrived at a ;:os~tion where ',;e do not believe ::hat :..t. is s;ossible :::o s-et a.r.yt:hing lik.e ::iesigr:.ation o:: essential 2Z::Floyees 1.n case of t.h1.s :-m. ?DBER':'S: :t:: 1.3 :.nef£ect~·;e to fJUC it 35£7

- 1'-R. t\OEERTS : ~1R. :>l"EARY: :·!..P... 5?EA.J.:;ER(Sitnmsl: one quick question. :1R. ;)INN: Tape 143~ That would Ce relatively ~iPA. ~hat is being done about it? PK - 2 The government has r.ot done its hcnework. crder, please! He have about for~y seconds left, tine for The han. ~ember asked what is being - I£ none other c£ ~y colleagues r~se, I would sL'nply ask t,he minister, what is being done .:1bout it? I mean, are the goverr~ent going to sit dur.bly back and just watch the whole thing go to the Hades in a hand cart: .\:!It. NEARY: That is right . ;,!..tt. NINDSOR: Y!r.

Speaker, as I indicated earlier ·;;e l'l.ave !-..ad :;.umerous discussions, t.!l.e hospital boa.!:'ds with t:.he un.lons, particular loc3.ls responsible in these hospitals. And there have been serious ongo~ng negotiations-for what::?-I guess t:wo or t:hrr::!e ·;;eeks, even since the ;::cssibility of a strike locmad. The :1inister .::;£ Health (>tr. House) indicated, : think :1 •,.,reek or ::wo .:1gc, ,;;very possible step has been taken to provide fer the r:10st "Jn.fortunate circumstance that ':here t;~ay be a ::n::::ike.

And negotations have been ongoJ.ng v.;it.h these people to designate, as : indic3ted earlier this a::terncon, m many cases !:os;:i::als have already designated too, the people that ::l:ey 'o'IOuld l.:e ;;re:;:at:8:i to ledve ~n :::-.e job t;:) pr.:;vide these essential:;. (I:Jaudible) '.m..J.on::;. The unions ::at~er, jes. Oh, oh! Y:...~. SPEAKS~: Crder, please! The t:ir.:e for Cral Questions has ,:;;qnred. The her,. :<1inist:.sr of Tourist':l. :m. ?CWC:?.: '.:c:;::ml.ss:J.on ,;nm.:al Report anci .::'ir:anci:1l statement,;; ;:aking 1.:1 the ;:cried

:·!R. SPEAKER ( SIHI·~) : :~!R. :·L<\RSH.JU.L: Tape :!.434 PK - 3 :mT!CES OF :10TICNS The hen. President of the council. ~. Speaker, r sive notice that : will on :.cmorrow ask leave co introduce a bill, ''An Act To A.i!end The Companies Act". ANSHERS 1'0 QUEST!CNS FOR l'iHICH :-.IOT!CE HAS 3EEN GIVEN >JR. SPE.AKER: The han. :1inister of Finance. JR. J. counts: :1r. SJ;eaker, the han. mem.ber :or LaP aile ::-!r. chink it was en ~ov~~er 21, requested some information in regard to fiscal agents • I wish now to table an anS"..;e!:. ORDEHS OF THE DAY :.EL SPEAKER: :·lotion ~o. J ,adjour!'leci debate, the hen. tt>.Q.'!'~er for ?lacentia (i>1r. Pa~:terson).

Ue:ar, hear. >1r. S;_:;eat.er, I · .. -auld liAe to ::on ::inue :.::o :is!lery and :: would l.i!;.e to ;o on ·,.;it~ .J. little ::~ore serious ::-,ooci, : s·.:pyose, frcm the las-::. G.ay.

I would li.i->e :::o, ·.:i:::::tout sounc.i::g :::~c nuci'l ;;arochial, ! · .. ..auld like to ::ell :.m.s House abot.:t a sr::all :;lant. :.1p at Placentia. that ·,.;as b:lilt by :::;.,e .~ea Ji:lvelcpr::ent. i~.Ssociaticn ~~d Jev8lopect ir.ta a real success ~tory. 1.977 the J.s:;ociat:icn laun:::hed an ·.aro:,.:gh t:l'.e co-operatl.on 0f ::;,e ;::;.::ovincial Oe&:ar':..~ent: of 7isheries, . .,it'.:-. :::he J.ssistance of canado.. ~•ci l;;ai:. ciepot and :::aint:enance shop ·...-ere :::onstruc:::ed at JerSt!YS-l.de~ ...:. :~.ew Jock .:lnd :;i::c an ?,cd Lslaml 'N:.ere :30 ':::> 100 fCOfle recur:1 ~very :;;;Jru:.er to fish. :i..Oca.ls of t:.ile assoc.:..J.tion are ccr.st.ruct:J..ng :.ew docks ..!t. i!'r,;shwater, :Jur.vil.le ,.1r:,u -;. :-.ey Jock .:.s :-~.m.:r:J !:or ~~8rseysLie is be-st 5hown by ::crr:par::.-oO.on of ::.: . .:!so.; f::.guros.

In :J76, l, 4 30, JOG fOc..:nc.o> of fi:;i1 were ~'recess-..:.-; in 1977, l, 7 J:J, ::00 i'GU!1!is;

.:.979 ::..pe :io. l4J5 5:J - f'i.sn. ::cr Ja;?an. I do not know i<ow ::.any :~on. ;ce:nOOrs o£?posit:.e nave ::ec2ived ';;.:•is t:ook,cr members on :..'l.is side,b~t the book is publi.:wed by t..'1e C.anaca Japan T.::-ad<l council., it. is non-profit.abl>;! trade association. ! have copied a few things !:::ca :he: toe/< '"hich I :..'link a.=e of int.~rest to us he:::e and also to t. ... ,e !"ish :;rocessors in :~ewfoundland.

The int.roduct:.ion of t.he Cook says, "Canada ~c.l.l71e t.he world's lear:ii:tg exporter of fish in 1978, moving ..:p f~m t:.hi.rd. s:?O't:. -:.:.,e previo<Js year by :;-;eans of an almost 40 per cent ; ;.u:~p 1.:1 export sales '"'hich reached a new hiJh of l.l billion.

Japan ~as Canada's second ~ost irnpor~anc client fer 2.978 fishe:y sa.l.Fr:tcnc, t-.3.king 22.3 ,2er cent of t.'le ':.0'1:.&1 value of such exports. :he u.s. ranked in firs't:. pl.J.ce 1 0..:ying 49.:2 per ::ent,a.nd Frar.ce · .. ·as t-hird with 5.2. ':'he cnly ot.'1er large' overseas 1 markets were in West Germany and the U.K. 3ttwecn 1976 a:<d 1978 the 'lalue of fish 'rocit.!Ct s:ales ::c Jar:un increased f:cr. S77,5 t.:il.!.ion to S245.4 million These are expected to approach SSOO million in the early l980's.It !.s :'airly l ciyna.':lic :1ev1 ~lt;r:lent in Can.J.ca 1 s .;:::<por:. business Wl.th Ja;;an".

It says, "Table l gi•tes detal.ls of Car:adiw.n fisn _?reduct. ,:,xport co Japan in 1976 . I!". :?76 .:.:;. 2...-ncunc;;:;u :.:o $77,476,000 and -:.:~,-,,:-. i.• 2.7:77 it ·,.ept Sl42,J64,000; in 1979, $245,404,000." ~Iow deepsea fishing 361}1

~lovc:n.ter 25,1979 Tape No. 1436 AH-1 ~IP •• ? AT7ERSOU: not cnly provides a nutritional source buc also a livelihood for ~any. \1hen Canada a."ld the US decided that negotiations at t:.i.e Law of the Sea Conference would not ~each a speedy conclusion,bo~~ countries decided to follow the example of Feru and o~i.ers Jy declaring a 200 ~ile econom~c =cnes oi£ their shor~s. The actual demarcation of these zones is still a subject of bilateral negotiations between Canada and the US,but ~i.e implications for o~i.er nations have been obvious since 1977.

Of 129 independent coastal states,66 have declared the 200 mile economic zone. 3y mid•l978 all but a dozen ot the rest were contemplating following suit. The reason for this rush to extend the marine jurisdition was based on several arguments. Cne, ~he long rangec0 ~pse~ fishing fleets toge~l).er .,.ith local fishermen had over~explcited many individual species. This practice is similar tn clear cutting tiu~er since Coth reduce t.,e capital stock of the resource.

The 200 mile zcne gives an opportunity to ~i.e coastal nations, and especially Canada 1 tc control fishing so as to enhance the lcng run size anci :=::tense; of :..'le marine resource. ;.~s the capital or breeding stock accwr.ulates on the marine banks, larger catches will again become 9ossible. ' 1 ~umber two; t.'1e ::::oo mile eccnorr.ic zone gives control to ~,e coastal nations oi undersea iliineral and hydrocarbon resources.

Wbile t.'1is is an i~portant consideration icr the Law of ~i.e Sea,it is beyond t:.h~ scope of this ;::resentaticn. 11 Three; ~'1e 200 =:ile economic zone permits t..'1e setting of quotas for the allcv.~able catch by tradi::icnal :oreign fishing :1eet:s opcrat.ing within c.'~e zone. These have usua!.ly treant <1. stated reduc::icn in the si::e and catch and also a requi.rer.cnt to take fewer young fish. T!u.s is net only :or conservation p~rpcses )Jut :s.lsc to allow ~crnestic fisher:nen ::c ~a::::.e~ t!',eir ~hare o: ::!"::e allcwable catch ·,:i~"l.in :...'1e 200 rrile economic =one.

T;,e ccastal nac.:::.or ::-~ust :;?alice the zcne to :nake the quota s:.:•stern \:crJ:.'' Ar.d ·t~en they go en to c::~;:;lain :nanager.-:en:: c: a cc~on pro;::ert.y resource. " :'his is cf cou.:.-se a .,._.c:l

~:averr..ber ::::s, 1979 T?.pe ;;a. 1436 AH-2 :tR.?ATT:SP.SCN: kncwn problem with t:.~e ccrr:non property :-esource. It invol•;es over capitali.:ation of the fishing fleet. This was t:.~e case with the long-range =ishing fleet of ;apan ~~d the Soviet ~nion and others. ~co many vessels were chasing too few fish leading eventually to ever-fishing. The same phenomenon could occur in the canadian fishing industry if :co :nany large vessels are attracted into <:he newly reserved 200 mile economic zone .' 1 ::ow I am sure my hen. friend from Placentia Nest (~r.

Hollett) knows far more about the fisher] than : do, coming from an area where :.b.e deepsea fishery, dragger fishery has ::een a year-round business for years and years and years. I will be anxiously locking forward to hearing his comments on t.i-;.is and I would Ce glad to Frovide him with a copy of this book if he does not already have one. 11 The same phenor.:enon could occur in ':he C:anadian fishing i.rdust.. ....

J H too r::any large vessels are attracted to the newly reserved 200 mile economic zone. !ndeed,~~e econor.i~t·~ Fessimistic forecast would be for an expansion of crews and vessels, gradual ever-fishing, falling price of fish and in t..,e end l:ankruptcies and no L~provements in the inccmes of individual fishermen.

"This is t . .';e scena::io :.hat Canada ::~ust seek to avoid !:y insuring that expansion of t!'!e dome:otic .:ishing and "'"L.::;.n;;ereC s_Fecies,and :.hat new expert :narkets are found t.~at will sustain the price of fish in light cf lew consun:pticr: rates in ~1orth North A.r:terican coa3tal waters contain tet•..Jeen cne ~ua.:-ter anci a::~: t.~ird of t.'1e worlCs most productive fishing .:;rounds.

These are now con ::ained ·..;i thin the US and the Canadi ar, :::co ::-. .!.1~ econcrnic zcnes, ~ut t.l:.e t,ccess eit:ter directly to th.ese grounlls or -:,o tt',e harvez~ :rom t'hese qrcunCs is o= ::;ajor interest: ':c fish ::onsl.l1!1ing nations such as :::; a:; .. ::.L ::.nancial t:urCens -=o cvc::cc~e. 3601

~:ove:r.ber 28, l?i9, Tape l4Ji, ?age l -- apb .:.!..'q. ?.ti.T'rE?.SON: "':'-he outlook for Canadian East and :.;est ~cast marine exports to Japan of new tradit:ional species is excellent. It should be opti~~stically appraised in l~ght of recent pr::~jections by the the U.N.Food and Agricultural Organization. canada is the potential big winner £rom the 200 :nile economic =one enforcement:s. Japan, on t."le other hand, will :nove away f:::om self-sufficiency and being a major exporter to becoming t..'le 'llorld 1 s largest seafood importer by 1985.

"Evidently, prices :nust continue ~o rise to bring about supply/demand with the key strong position of the Japanese yen vis-a-vis ~he 2anadian dollar.

Canada w~11 continue to offer the highest ?rices not only for additional fish species, but also for ~~ose items not cons~~ed in great volume in :-::orth America. ~·lhile the prospects of an excellent e:{port market seem to be in view, the real question is ~he~"ler Canada will baP~ these export winnings or squander ~~em in a flurry of poor fishery organization and inadequate marketi.'1g." That: is •..rhere we are in ~lewfoundland !:oday, ! am glad that ::he ?remier there has seen fit to cake a look at =er~ain projects that were in ~~e fire, so to speak. ! chink we have to step and lock and fi!'ld out ;,~here we have been and where we are going.

I think my time is just 01bout up. As ! have said, T ;.,~ill gladly gi·1e -:.his beck to my han. friend over there. :;: c swys, "Canadian ?isheries Policy: Th~ f2deral government has :nade two ~jor pronouccer::ent·s on fishing poli=y. ~he first was i:1 1975, a s:olict for Canada's =ommercial fisheries. This policy enunciated twenty- f"ive :::ajar st::-ategies of ·..rhich t:he 3even :::10st important ;,~t:;re:" sor::e ir:put in t."ti.::; since it was in 1975 :he :;:;olicy ~·as formulated. They say, "Ia) obtaining c8ntrcl over ~1e fish ~esour~es throu~hcut \

b) increasing knowledge of stocks thrcughom.:

::over..ber 28, 1979, Tape i437, ?age apb :-m. ?A~RSON: increased researcn; (

c) basing allowable catches on economic and social factors and not on ~e ~xi~u~ sustainable biological yield. Applying entry control in all cor~ercial fisheries. Co-ordinating and rationalizing development of fleets and providing for withdrawal of excess capacity. Providing for rehabilitation and the enhancement of repleted stocka. Removing subsidies, encouraging entry ~ t.he fisheries.'' hon. gentleman. :·!R. PATTERSON: I t.'link my time is up. Oh no, I • . .-ill hear the Than.~ you. "In 1977, there . ..,as a second block of policy announcements for the Atlantic fisheries. Several broad policies were announced and w~ere were ten important points: {

a) the fishing fleet and its capacity ~ust meet the available =esource. (

b) t.here is a need to ensure ;1n economic climate in ~hich the ~wner or prospective buyer will made decision on replacements or additions based on his ccnfidence in ~he future viability of his enterprise in L~e industry. {

c) the resource needs of the inshore :isherf must be safeguarded. \d) !r,dividual own8rship of •.ressels will be encouraged. (

e) the need for a federal credit institute to finance fisheries development and phased out assistance programmes will be pursued. (f) .zvery ef::ort ·will be made to improve Canada's access to world fish markets t!1rough -:..~e fisheries bi-later::~.l 'lgreements, :narket and de1..·elopment. \

g) short-ter:n development arrangements and vessel charte::s bet:: ... een the private sec~or or gover~~en~ and ~e foreign fishing interests . ..,ill :-tave to satisfy che criteria. of significant: benefit ::o Canada. I h) :;est of 'Jessels should be :;a sed on wcr2.d [)rices .:or es_uiprr . ..:nt. ·

i) instalat:.ion of infrastructure :o i.:;:;prove fish quality and utili::a-::ion :.;ill be encouraged. Fishe:ries should >lOt be £!nccuraged co solve social ;:rcbl.err.s arLsing ::rom cause$ ot.'1er than

:~ovember 28, 1979, Tape 1437, ?age 3 -- apb :-m.. ?ATTERSCN: the fishe~J. Generally speaking, t.'le ::ede.ral government: is :nuch encouraged by the ~~e prospects for Atlantic fish business, a great contrast to four years ago when it appeared that the industr] ~ght go fin up." 360$

:lcver..be::.- 28, :;.979 Ta9e :-Io. 1438 :::-1 - 1 I am sure there are others who '··:auld '"'ant. t.o speak on -:his a."!d ! do not want co take c..~ac time away from ::hem, and as sa~d. ! would gladly make this ~oak available there to my friends. And again : would like to congratulate that group U? there in ?lacencia; it is all free work they are putting 1.nto this Area Development Association. And t..'lis has been a most success!:ul year ·..:p -:here wi t:h .!..10 people employed and t.hey have processed ?ver 5,2CO,JOO pounds of =:ish.

I ~ight add >:hat this ;lant is O?erated by the :-Jewfoundland --~uick Freeze. :t is leilsed by the :1ewfoundland Quick Free=e =::::em ::he Area Development Association. Thank :JOU, :-tr. Speaker. ?.ear, hear~ :·1R. ;:;?EAKER (Simms l: The han. Leader of ::he :Jpposition. SOME :.!ON. :.t£:·1BERS: Hear, hear~ :.tr. S9eake::-, it is obvious that Pr iva t:e >!ember's Day is :-~ot one that att:::ac;:s a great deal of interest ~vsn ·,;hen c:;nc is tali<ing about such vital a subje::;t as the fisher:r. But I think there may ~e il couple 8f reasons for this. One is historical.

I said t-0 somebody not too long ago chat I ',.,rould :10t be a bit. sur:;;n.sed if somebody loai':.e-d in the histor·f !:oaks lf they ·,;auld :tot dJ.scover :::-,at the day 3.fter John Cabot's re9ort ::-eached England ::hat t.he :;;eas around !·lewfoundland were teeming 'Ni th fish 1 ·:_!10 rows s-::art.ed ove:: :nn.nagernent and Jurisdiction. .:l.nd certainly our i1is1:.ory indicates :::erchants :ind ::.he fishet:nen or :Jetween -:)U::selves J.nd ::oreign naticns, .:;.nd indeed €!'Jen tet'd'2•:m various Canadian ;?::-ovi~ces, so that perhaps ::his is a subJect on \·Jhich indeed the::-e is :-tot a great deal :::ore -::o ?::-er:u .. e!7 c;:;;mnented ;:-ecently, to t.he ::act t.ia.t f:.sh :.:1 :·Je•,.;foundland :s .::learly :md ·.mmistakeably an ongo1.ng subject =:or d::.scussion .:lnC. ::ie!:;ate .1s it cugbt -::o be.

:Jove:r.iler 23, 19i9 Tape ;lo. 1438 I am ~ot qoing ~o cover the water::ront 1 as J..': ·.vere, if that is an appropriate phrase in these c~rcumstances, but t:J.erely touch on two or :::hree items in relation to :::he fishery which ! t..'1ink are of key ir:<yortance and to 'Nhich I would like to direct t:.'1e at:ter.::ion of :::<ember.:; oppcsita .-:lnd indeed to everyone '"ho is connec1:ed 'Ni th the fishing industr:t. w.tsh there ·,.,ere ;:irne to discuss in some detail t~e references to exports made by my han. friend =rom ?lacentia \:-1r.

Patterson), because of course this is cne of t~e key and trer.;endously important questions for the future. I hope that ·,.,e ·Hill not be carried away l:::y the ~uphoria of the most recent report ·.;hich seems to suggest that. ·.;e ::.:m doubl2 t:he market.

Because you have ':o look at the qualit'ying phrases t!"!.at are in that document before you realize that if ·-;e a.re going to, and I -:.tuite agree that t:he potential is there, that 1f we are going to ~eally increase our export potential between now and 1985 we are going to need to do a great many tttings, "Jery few of 'Nhich, so :ar as ! c:m see, are 3.ctually in place at ::his moment. : should say also, as an aside, that I hope that th.; :;overnmenc oi Can..J.da is go~ng to be very e£5ecti·Je during these nex1: days and 'Neek.s in negotiating -,.,ith the European economic cor.munit}'· Bec3.use if there :s any real and .!.mmed1ate pot~nt:ial for increase it is in the nine member nation group of t~at par~icular or::;ani:::ation.

It is not gcing to be :~.n ..;;ast t:ilSk ,ar:d I repeat ~hat : could ut.ili::e all ?f :ny c:ime in explaining •,rhy. But : just C:lUtion ::hat "Ne siloulC. :~at, .tn :hJ..s as in so r:tany ':)t!",er t:.hings, simply assume ':h-3-t because ce:=:-.ai:: -:rend;; a;:pear evident at: ::he moment, that the :isher:t is of: and :::·..:.nning, as it: \.;e:::e, ar:d that ·,.,e no lor:ger need to be concer~ed aCout J..t. I believe t~ac che prospects ar0 ::;ood but :~:: us not deluCe ::mrsel·Jes tha:: ::here are .o. lot of ha:::ards along 36C'3

:~overn.ber 28, 1979 Tape ;,Jo. 1438 :-!N - 3 :·m. ;A.t1!ESON: ~ained its awn benefits erom ~he 200 mile limit: and as .l result '::here is a revived interest among American fishe~en and consequently considerably more resistance in very effective lobbying groups against further concessions and i.m:.ents on our par~ 36D9

:;ove:r.!:er 28, 1979 Tape l4J9 :::c - 1 :-!R. JA.:·I!ESCN: to get a larger share of chat ~npor~ant American market. T~os~ han. gentlemen opposite and on this side who from time to time have said ~~at it is important ~,at we diversify ~re are absolutely right, because we are in a ver{ dicey position as long as '.Je have such a heavy t'eliance upon ~~e United States :r~ket.

Xy han. friend has made reference and I cannot resist commenting en it al~,ough ! had not intended to Wilen r arose - to the potential in Japan, for instance. ! happen co i<now how difficult it is to break t.."le tariff barriers C.::1at: exist. ·with regard part.icularly to fish products in Japan. ! t.hir..k we can do it ''"it.."l certain specialty items like caplin and squid and, of course, we are already starting co make a dent ~~ere, but let us not, again, assume that t.his is a. continuing and a growing c.'1ing 'rl'here eac.it year we ara goil".g to see our fishern-.en beneficing l'l'.ore and more !:ram these 3pecialized species.

Which bri.ngs me to the second point c. 'tat r '#ant to mentl.on, and it is really that in a sense, although it is no fault of ~ colleague wno put down t..,is ~t.ion, ic is really almost out of date even before we debate it, Mr. Speakdr, because what it. tal~s ai::out in part, at least, a development programrr.e for lJewfoundland and ~abrader fishing industrJ to 1985, has been proposed by cue ;overnrnent. AnC., of course, when c.'tat resolution was put here, that was the case. You will recall che document: wnich I sho·,..ed in the House a few days ago, fish is C."le Future.

I':. is :1 very, very s;:ecific pl.ece of work bac.i.(.ed up by - and I have received all of the copies, t..~ings like c.~e Kellogg re;.;ort: 'w'nich cost an enonr.ous aroount cf :noney. And !

C.o not. t:.now how many otJ'ler surveys ~: .. b.at were col':".rnissi.one::.::. ;lnci carried out. over the last. four or fi.ve years so that '<~e were assu..""li:-:g at. t:.'1e ?Oint ·when t..'"lis resolution was sW.m.it:teC., •..;hicn ·•as back i.n Ji.!ly or .;ugust, t..'1at ~"le fisheries strategy ·.,as in f~ct. in ?lace. :1cw ·..;e :::.."lei ::.r.at only a few days ago ~n answer ~o a question by ~e. the ?re~er 5a~d t..iat ::!.-:.ey ·,.,ere rev:.ew~ng lt once aga~:1. So na.s t....'1~ clock st.art.eci on :..:•e

:-<ovember 28, 19i9 Tape 14.39 EC - 2 :·t?..

J AMIE:SON: that '"'as prepared for this House, or are we in !act talking about five years begin .. 1.ing at some stage in the future? :'iow I emphasize once again that, of course, I aave said t..'lat we have been talking fisheries for 500 years and reviews will be constantly necessart 1 but there is one thing which t!l.is industry needs today more t..'lan it neec!s almost anyt..'ling else and that is a degree of stability, a degree of assurance ~ut t.he policy patterns which are soing to be followed Oy ~~e various provinces, including ~1is ?:rovince, and ~e federal gove~ment, so ~~at, indeed, they can 6o their own planning, Because let ~e assure hon. members ~~at whatever governments seek ro do t.hat in t.'le last analysis tile i::1petus, t.'le drive for the next five years or ten or fifty for t..'lat ~atter, t..~e grow~~ in ~~e fishing industry, t.~e biggest single part of it is going ~o .:;ome from ~,e fishe~n themselves and it is going to co~ from ~~e companies and <:;;.e van.ous oe."J.e: organizations and n.ot altogether or even tct:ally ~":rough goverr.ment. action. <;nd consequently, ti"terefore. :: t.."link i:. lS a Cerelic'tion of duty e."lat ~\;e government has not in fact ?Ut into place a ver-J spacific programme, or having put one in ?lace, rr.ore .:;orractl.y, :1.:1s now turned around and :;aid, 'Hell, by t.."le .:nd of ::.lie ::•ear we are gol.ng to nave reviewed this aga.:.n and t.'1e::-e :nay be c:1un.:;:es,' I a:n s~.;;.re that the han. ~'1.e mer:-.ber for Placentia (Xr.

Patterson) l.S ;?ro.cably quite pleased to hear t.:'l.at t.'lere has iJeen ~orne lessening o!: ar:!our fa:: ~1c s'.lperport at Harbour Grace and t,:;,ac right: ;;.ow ;.,·e find ::hat ti1.is .;.::nose ::encerpiact: of t;1e stracegy of a year or two yfJ;;.rs ago L; ::.cw ;:,eing seriously ':!Uesticned, not: by us, but:. !Jy ':lmse ;.,no have t.'1e :-es;o:-:.sl.:Ci.li:.y :or carcying out thi.s particular ?t:O]ec:t.. 1 I13J::F-er-. t.o, l ':.~'.;..::-./.:, r:::tcw somet.hing about :..i-:c background on :.:tis and can say enti:-el; ::.:. a no:>- aC.vance=. - ::o'C about:. -::he J.dea of a ::e:r.t:-otl ;::oint 361~.

t:10.n ::c::_lly tte sor:: ::;::,.:.:--,a ;;;er.se,ke~· elerrent in :.:1c ~t.ratec:y. Eu~ !::'e ti12' as it. r:'.ay 1! t~.ink ~".e rest 1 .!:'!,-JCrt:ar.~t ':.'1i.ns for t:te c;:cverr.- :_.._, :. .• 0 -- .:c ;'i.J.C..'

.• over..L8r :!S, 1979 a.ttac21::,ent to ::l1cse o>tocks en c::ne !

Co r.ot. believe tJ .:lt any Ccvernr.-ent of C~naCa cught tc 1in :;~o:;! :-• .::J;:".2 of ::et.aining jurisdiction, ought to tr<J o;o alloc.::.te t::ut :;-:.oc.k: in ~y hay ct:~er t:.u:. ::c cr:sure t~at: i::: first a.nci !:ore:::cst is cr ,,•hat:ever; if ::at all for t.'1at pur:;ose t::.en cen:.ainly :or 'le•lifaunC:- :and L.:1sed, :ie·,·fot!l1C.land .;rssociat.ed aspect.s of t.'1e :;;.::;hcry. .: "'rr ::ct. .:>t.:.rc ·,,flat the les-al ::-a:!'_i£ications · ... -auld be of :;ol.n~ to ccur:: c.-. .:ln arS'U:r:ent cf t.:-tat kir:.:l. 3ut. tl-.c. case in i":.istOr'J is ::,o strcns t.':.:.t i" -.:e::cribet~ a:: ccncur::en:: j'..lrisdiction. ::ot-.·1 once again, I z.n, ::o -.·ol! c:w j3vc, if : :.~nC.e::::;';:and '.::ic viOrr:L; -:-;rrectl';/ 1 ~3 concurrent

:-lovembe.:- 23, 1979 Tape No. 1441 ~H - 1 but I can assure whoever the successors are to han. gentlemen opposite, and I do not mean that in the political sense because ! say it is going to be so long in being resolved that the chances are that very few of· us will be here, that it would in my judgement be extremely difficult, extremely difficult to have a situation in which constitutionally you '4ould have five governments at least, including the government of the nation as a whole, all trying to get their share of the action under .:his concurrent:. jurisdiction.

It would De far more logical, it :>eems to be far more sensible in the long run, for Newfcundland to assert some ~ind of special claim, or some kind of special right with regard to ~~or:.hern cod, and ::hen let the rest of it stay •.1here it is c..n the hands of indeed the federal government, ·..Jith consul'tation. And by the way, I have to say in defence of my former colleague, the ~·linister of Fisheries of Canada, :.t.r.

LeBlanc, that the idea that there ·.ras ::o consul:.ation i3 of course ;?rcbably more politic:1ll7 inspired chan anythl.ng else because there are gentle:r.en in this House this afternoon •t~ho ~<:now that there were a great many consultations that took place. And in the final analysis, you recall tne history of the las:: t•,.;em:y-four months cr so, it ·,.;as indeed <:.he :act that the ml.n.:.ster nationally did not have to share "concurrent jurisdiction" ::hat enabled him to assign some eighty per cent oi the Nor":i'!ern cod to :lewfoundland ·,;hen all of the /1aritime ?rovinces we=e :1rc;uing about. l.t.

So, therefor2, all I am issuing ~er~ is a caution, a ::rienC.ly cam:ion,that ·,;e not be too sticky ,::n these constitcrr:ional c;:uestions e1ntil 'He ask ourselves what ':te ::eact.lon is l.il,:ely to be ::o chat 1\.ind of an ,:J.ction. Incidentally it is interest:.o.ng, :md,':;)y tt:.e ·.1ay,a little ·..;orriscme, t~at ~'le docurnent ::o which I r0ferred •..Jh-lch 1s a .i.ist o:: the issues bet•..-een t..l1e federal ·;ovcrnr.:ent -::md c.~.L:; government in :1ewfoundland, -..:alks about the ·:::oncurrent: jurisdiction, :.ne :.a::es:SJ..t·/ for consti:::.n:.ional amendment 1 but afte.:- tl1at.

Sa'fS ,_;;uic:e 061·1:

:-rovem!::ler :s, 1979 T3pe No. 1441 :1R. JAN!ESCN: Federal !1inister of ?isheries shall .ln ef:ect, and I am paraphasing, have the ultimate auc..~orit..y. It is goir.g to be interesting :::.o see -~~hat happens over the next year or t~o if ~1ere is in fact scme serious problem that emerges because :.here is a clear concession in t,.r,.at docu.'!lent Wl.th regard to the ultimate rights. 5o ·.;hat ·,.;e are Coing here ! suppse is, ~n a way, throwing ourselves on the merc:r of t.'1e :ederal minister, or hoping ':hat the negotiacing process, or the consultative process ".Jill resolve all of the ?rcblems.

I merely hope that it does. :1ow, Mr. Speaker, I have been advised there are only a few ~inutes left and the~e are several other questions "::-.at I ·.-auld like to touch on but I will do one at least Cecause, once agair.,it is i~E>ensely important in relation to ~~e export C£UCSJ:ion ·..;hich ·..;as :raised many times during this debate. 'lou know, :.he conventional wisdom in ~Iewfoundland, :-tr.

Spea.\e:r, has always been :::!>at upgrading was the answer and for many, many years I went: along •,.;1.1:h this belief in exactly the kind of routine way that I suppose the vast majority of ;;;eo?le in :Jewfoundland dici.

I assu.'ned t!"!.at sc~ehow or ocher, i£ •,.;e Z1ad the capability of doi"g so, thut upgrading '~auld ::;e .;:omparad:vely s.J..mpJ.t:!. :tave discovered since - wise~ and older, if t'OU like - ~hat even 1.f the -::ari£:!: barri2rs that were always used :1s <::he argu.":~ent are removed, .:~.nd : suspect that over tJ..me the'[ ''Jill be, th.J.t even i::' this happens, t:.hen we are :;o1.ng <:o be 1.n a sit'..lat:isn 'Nhere the :st:c.tctur0 of C.:te industry, as 1. t: ex::.sts at t:he present time, ::.s such th.at: the :najority of the processing ;?lants 1.n Newfcundland, eith~r al:-eady have :.~p;rading facilit-ies of some sl..qnJ..ficant s.t::e i:. t;:e Uniced States- _"Lltional Sea, :Uckerson, : 3.!:'1 thinkin!J :J£ them in particular.

Fishery ?rod~cts. :1R. JA.'HESCN: fishery 9roducts, and I think the J:n absolutely open :!cor into the United Stat:.2s -.;i:;h <:he c.;osr '.J.pgraCeci 36!5

~;cvember 28, 1979 N!-1 - 3 ~1R • .JAH!ESON: advantage of these companies, or whether they would be able ove::::- any short period of time at least, t~ change ~he mark~ting structure that they have put in place over the years, and consequently we should not again delude ourselves t,hat it. is simply going to be a question of getting tari::fs out of ~:-.e way and then t.'1e '.lpgrading will go on at a 'Jery rapid rate. By the way1 ! thoroughly agree ',,;ith the :::oncept. 1 am :>at arguing either ~1ith the government when it says that it wants to put the emphasis on this. 36:!S

::cve::'.ber 28, 1979 Tape 1442 PK - 1 >lr. Jamieson: :: think it is likely ~o =orne w new species, perhaps dogfish, which the f'.cn. member for Placentia (P..r. Patterson) talked about.

All lands of new species are ccming on the market where it may very 'Nell l::::e ;;ossible fer us to do it through the incentive kind of route· 3ut :::assure bon. !':',ernbers,once again, and ·we ·,.;ill look ::.ad:. on this debate at some point in the future and I thL~k I will be proven to l::::e -::orrect, that i.f ·;;e rely upon the ;:tarket forces themselves 'd"',en we ;.;ill not get the level a£ upgrading that we are hopeful of :lnd desirous of, and which,indeed, I -;uess, the ;overnment is committed to, and it "'ill not ccme 8ither, by th~ way;~rxough incentives.

Because if the incentives alone where enough, the hundreds o£ millions of Collars t~1at have l::::een put into the fishing indust.ry by governments at both levels over the years would have done it by now to a ~ch higher degree or a r:'lUch greater degree than has in fact ha-poened. :::n the long rur. it is likely to take some kind of ;:rchibition on the part of Ne•,.;:::oundland, I suspect, Ceca use the jur-!.sdicticn, I think, rests ·..;ithin the Province, some kind of ~rohibition against the export of £ish products except at ~ certain level of ~reduction or something of t~~t nature.

If ·"'e are really go::.ng to :nax:!.m::.ze, .:md we mean what we say, then that is gol.ng to be the -:ase. One last feint I would like to make 1 and that nas to do wi::h the spinoffs.

Once again the theory, ::he theory .1dvnnc•~d by 1:h<2 govcr:uncnt., is J.n •.:onti.r'-"11' lcqL::;ll ':me, and nobody- ::auld ,uque ·;;i::h H:, that ~n orCer ::o ma:ximi::e the ·>~hole total ouq:::ut of the fishery ::hen ,.,;e ouc;ht to !::e a.ble, for exa.-nple, to do r:lcre shipbuilding, that :t is :-idiculous, I thoroughly agrce,to havs< Newfoundland ccmpanies, -:anadian comJ:an::.es !:Juying vessels ln :"oreq::.n c:ountri,-~s •;;hen ·;;e have shi;:yards in this country and in ::he ::anstit.c.wncy of :'1": l:<Jn. ~;ie:1d ::or 3urin-Placent.ia West. (11r. Hollet-

t) capable of doing it. Suc let. me assure JOU, :-!r. Speaker, tl'.at here or:ce aga.tn r:he econcmi::s, :!.r,d 1 invite ·nwn. ::1e:r.b.:=rs who are int2resc.ed r:n look :1t them bc:::aus<±

~~ovember 28, 197'? -Tape 1442 PK 2 :·tR.

J.'\!-!ISSON: ~hey are available quite readily ~o most people ~ho are interested, ~he economics are such :hat without a tremendous change in the approach, 9robably principally of the federal government to the ~hole question of bounties or that type of thing, it will not be possible far these yards to compete on any kind of a consistent basis. !t may be that one or two may do so ~ecause they ~ave a linkage with the fishing industry - I believe the ~ational­ :Jickerson Group has that kind of situation and there may be a capacity th~re for them to do something - but for the ordinary fish processing company to buy its trawlers or to get its vessels here in Canada will require significant changes.

And by the way, I think that those ~hanges - I ~ote the han. ~1inister of Finance {Dr. Colli:1s) is in the House; he ~ight want to have some of his people do a little work on this because I do not believe that the conventional appronch of saying it is ~5 per cent or 15 per cent or some~hinq of that nature on cost is qoing to be the answ~r - I think it has got to be something new and imaginative such as a hi~her rate of tax write off, somet~ing of that nature, because the yards will not be able to compete successfully under the standard for~ula.

And the r~ason is si~ple - and I will not tdke very lcng to go into this because it is a complex subject - the reason is si~ple, that the minute that we increase :he ante, shipbuilding yards in these other countries just jack it ~P thac ~uch further. So if it takes 25 ner cent to qet :=::uilt in Canada, the J2.panese will say i.t will be 40, or :!'le s:;anish ·..:ill say it will '::Je 50, or <;:;;.ey •..:ill do somet'tling so that the sheer formula of ~ountv or arant or subsidy is not coi~g to turn this around.

Co~sequent!y : ~ake this noi~t =ecause I worry scneti~es tha~ we nay he co~~na too ccti~ist~c about the o?portuni:ies which are unmistakably t~er~ Ln t~e

~love~ber 28, 1979 '!'ape 1442 PK - 3 ',!R. JA!HESON: and real skill on the part of, not only the unions and the fishermen and people like that, but governments and anyone who has a deep i~terest in the fishery, to see that we get our way and ska~e our way around the hazards which are there at the same time as the opportunities. 11ay !, 'Nith the indulgence of the House, ~ake one last point, and that is that underlininq the chanqe that is taking place in the fishery ~as new aranatic change in the representation through the labour union and the like. And I would recommend to hen. members o?posite that in addition to providing, and I notice the Minister o£ L<!bour (."l.r. :>inn) is here,

:~ove:r.ber 2S, 1979 ':'ape 1443 EC - 1 anC I believe he might. be prepared to agree wit.~ me t..'1at unless the trade and the unions :neet other t.'-lan in ~onf:ontation across t.'1e bargaining table, if that is the only time when t.he representatives of t..'1ese thousands of Newfoundlanders and their e~~loyers get together, we will not get the kind of relationship, t.~e i~ind of co-operation t..'1at is going to be necessary. ;.;:ow, cne or t'tio organizations already exist, on paper at least.

I have the impression t.'1at they are not - nobody's fault, perhaps - but t..'1ey are not working as effectively as t.'1ey should be. But one of t..'1e things which will be, I believe, imperative in the next three or four mont.i.s - and I do not envy whoever l.t:. is th.at is going to have to arbitrate with regard to the whole new negot:iating st:ance t..'1at is going to be taken by bath the companies and t.,e union - but that t..'1e unions be given sufficient info~ation that ~1ay can believe what is being said to t..'1em about t.he costs and t."le receipts and the prices which ~,e processors are getting.

I have represented the Sout.'l Coast riding for thirteen years or more, and ~e biggest single di!ficulty ~~d I a~ sure it is ~~e same in ot.~er parts of ~~e Province - ~s ~at t.'l.ey do not trust ~,_e figures ·.o~hen they are given to them, if they are given to them at all, by t:he processing companies. :Jow, I believe once again that !:..."'.ere is - I ·...tould have to refer to the records ::a be cert:.ain - i.:;ut:. I beli.~Zve t."''at:. :..'l~re is t."''e bare bones of a provis.lon somewh.::re now in ':.lle legisla::.i•te cubbyholes which flrovides for this kin2. of thing.

But:. :..-.e government has its own ,.ays, and cert:.ainly t.~e federal government: has l.t:.S ways of getting at:. ::.he dat:a, getting at che infcr:na::.ior.. And ! ;.,·culC recormnend on an ~rgent basis to :.his gover:;ment, H"henever it get:s a new reccr..r.lend that .lt. take as a priori':."! :..".e prov-ision of some ~ec:l..:L.<.lsw 3620

:-.ct. inC:ulge i.~ any further. ri:ere ::.re ::-.any o;:::er ti'l.in;s ~;;.ut: _ ..JOu.i::. like to say, but. t.:1is rcscluticn calls :'or a :'ull LC!ba=e or. fL;;:eries ;;,r,..; :;: urn ;;;ure tilC.t. ir. ':..">1-e ·..;eeks, r:'.cnt.hs anci years :mead ::.2:cre '<d.ll ;;:;e c.culC like ~c .:.::..y a ~···-';: :r. :: _ c:ttr::r-: ',ell, ~.-ut :::::;:; Lw. 362:1

::eva :C;:::ctLl. :;::;. .; • C:JLU;iS: ..;,::. :c:.r. ';;.

.;ove::;;..,er .2c, l~/9 Tape Jo.1.;44 3D - 1 J:K. :-::r.r.::~s: .tr. Sf;eaJ;er, I .,.ant :::o go in to c::.at:. a little bit and 2erJ--.aps also as;:;ociat:.ad wit:.h tha;;; is t.ne thought:. t:-'1at: we are running a risk in terns of t:-'1e fi~w.ery cy ;urs:..::i.;".g :::.."lis because of tt'.e dangers of pollution .:~.nci t::.~e danger of general dist:rubance of :.he fishing ef:ort. one :lilS to leek at <:.h.:..3 in .:;. 'Jery tact:.au.l '6a'J.

JUst: !:e£cre ::~aking t::e point. in that: regard 1 just: to look at: a ;encral :.alk, I t...'link :wme of it:. perhaps bordering on rhet:~rl.c tu::: nevert:..;.eless sone :;ood ren:.arks .tn t:..'1e polic:l area, :.co, ::1aile L"l t~is detate 1 1 :Jt there !las not really Lesn a ·u_:r·/ factual ! nave a few fig:..::r£:s .lo:L::u. r::.e c::t:.J.l Lwdinqs i.n 1975 ;.,·ere 27:!,000 ..:::.:ri.:: ::.ons, :.:.his is l.J.::din;s c£ al.l sort..:; 21:: fisher:;; in 1.9i9, -c:ne fi]url.! '<~,J._, 397,COJ ::1etri:: :lEARY: :hat:.. lew, ,;.:.

'::.:J.pe :lo. 14..;4 S:J - 2 ::R. COLLINS: to look ~~ ~nether f~gurc to 5ee :.;: ::i:at: i3 so. In 1977, t:r:ore were 16,000 licenced fishernen in ::.:-te ?rov:tnce. :Jew, this .:..s :10~ t.o :;ay t.ilii~ all the licenced Eisher.:te;: pro.::;ecu::ed the :isher:,.- fer til.~ w:-.cle f"ear or even fer :;;ern.:J.,?S aa apprecia:..:,lc ,;;art of ::he year 1 tut neverr.rieless t:here '.;ere lO,OOJ feder<:.lly licenced fisi>er=:.en in ::he Provi:;.ce, In 1979, liccr.ceci fi.snerr:1en in ':..lis Province - a rer:~.ark.;.ble increa.se. ,/ow, :-tr.

SJ?eaker, if you lock J.t :::-,ase £ig:;re::>, in ot.her words, if you take ::.'1e figure that:. ·,.tas .1:J.Dlicable in 19/7, on an averJ.se basis t:t.J.t •.;orks cut: roughly 35 ,JOO per li-::enced fishermen i.:1 t.er.:1s of t.l;e lan-::ied 'J:J.lue! ::;£ fish. :': lS a. 'N:ry _3.Verage figure and it is probably :-,ot of itself ::cu r:.ea.ningful except if one '.!Ses it: in ;::c:::pari.son 'Nit.h ,Je ::an:1ot., <;'fen 1..: we ·..:auld !.iJ;c it, even i.f ~~e W3.nt;:;;J to ar:d <:::1nnot. '..ieper.d :;n 't::.c £ishcry .J.lane for our s:1!.vaticn. ',~·e 't~ill -·:_:;

~lovember 28,1.979 tape No. 1445 AH-1 i)R.COLLINS: seriously work to the detrimC;nt of ~1e fishery. This is what goverr~ent manag~~ent is all about. We have to do them both,· we ca.""lnot: rely en just the one. Now, Hr. Speaker, another subject I just want to touch or. because there was scme criticism raised en it, and ~~at is in regard ~o ~,e Fisheries Loan Eoard. It has been stated, it has been confi~ed by government that the Fisheries Loan Board has had difficulties in this current year, it has had very serious di!"ficulties.

I ar1 :10t intimately knrn.'ledgeahle with the '-'IOrkings of the bcard,but I bring fcr..tard thi.:> point, :1r, Speaker. ;.;e have had this marked increase in ~,e nu~~er of fishermen and at ~~e same time •..;e have had a very, very marked increase in the number of licensed fishing vessels of all sizes.

I do not have early figures,but even in ~~is past: ']ear t.~ere has b~en an increase of 2,000, from 16,600 regi;;:tered •.ressels in 1978 to lB, 700 vessels in 1979 . .lnd if my rr.emory serves xr.e correctly, in ti:.e 1975 period, I ~~ink, there was somet:hing of t.~e order of ~ ,·JOO to 10,000 regist:ered vessels. So we have had an extr~mely rapid increase in ~~e demands put en the lean beard anC in the resources available to it and on the management expert:ise available ':.o it.

Hen. members will remeirJ:er thut we wished to involve :..~ose engaged in t.\;e fisher:;, :10t just civil service, net just businessmen, net. just bankers or accountants cr . .,hatever. ;..;e also ·..:anted t.'"l~~se who W<2!':"e er,gageC in th~ fishing indu!:itry to have scmet.'":ing to do with tl'.e :nanqc;;err.ent and allocation of funCs available t.o the board. This i3 not an e~cuse 1 ~ut it is just a fa~or, ! w~ink, that has to be bc~e in ~ind.

Th~re ~as b~en such an expansion of the fishery, enccurageC by <:his government:, desired Cy all our people, an e.xpansicn in the fishery in terms cf nat only =~e fishermen ~ut also ~.e boa=s, cf course, they ~aC. to 'J.Se to prosecute <:..'"lei::- occupation, :.!:Jat the ~can ';.;oarC '..Jas ;;:;u-::. unCer tre:r.endcus ;:res sure, and it was clearly such .;;, -:..ren'.enC:cus p::-ess·.1re that it.s organi.::aticn did net albw it to r.2.rc-lc it in an ei=icien:. :::anner anC government is nm.; ir:. t!-.e ?recess cf :::-earranging <:..'l.e managerr.ent a.'1d 3625

;;overr.ber 28,1979 Tape tlo. 1445 AH-2 ::;R. COLLI!lS: the organization of the board so ~~at it will be able to discharge its duties in a better fashion in :::...1-te future. Mr. Speaker, the question of jurisdiction came up,and the hon. Leader of the Opposition alluded to this 1 and! must say tb.at! welccr,:e-c.mJ I think ! read him correctl:·-:: <,cc:i.come his support and ! am. s·..:re all of this side of the House welcomes his support for the t..l-trust towards the use of the northern cod for Newfoundlanders.

There may be some differences in the approac~ by the two sides of t..~e House in terms of this 1 but I ~1-tink it ~s welcome to ~ear, it is good news to hear that the >.on.

Leader of ~,e Cpposition :md his party essentially supports t.,at the northern cod should be :J.sed not only ior ~~e insh~re - and ! think I interpret his remarks correctly- not only for ~,e inshore fishermen of Newfoundland but indeed for !iewfoundlanders in total, that this should be tJ;.e main concern in whoever has the jurisCiction to allocate the northern cod, that should be ~,eir main concern, that this Province,which historically has had the right to prosecute t..~at fishery and indeed to ~~e lir.~ts of its capability did ?rosecute that fisherJ in terms of t..~e Labrador fisherJ and so on, that this will continue in the future, and that is welco~~. ~cw ! would just like to bring up one other example where it is so important to pay attention to ~1.e jurisdiction in regard to t..1.e fishery, Eon. :r.ernbers will understand that on the George's Bank there ·.oere negotiations bet<Neen the United States and canada over the fisherj in t..,at area down there. (Inaudible) oiL DR.

COLLINS: Well, oil comes into it too 1 and t..l-;e line is going to be important in that regard. But just dealing ·,;it..1. the fisher-;, t..!~at this was import.ant to beth nations. Now a deal was struck anC this Ceal was welccrned. 1 ~ust say that Curing ~~e deal ~~e ?~evince cf ~:ewfounciland requested 6at they be allcweC. ::o have sc:ne status in the negotiations 1 be it as an observer or whatever 1 and c:-,at was not gl.ven 36:::s

~Jcverr.be::: 28,1979 '!'ape !io. 1445 AH-3 DR.COLLI:.IS: to the Province of ~le1otfoundland and I ~~ink it was rr.ost unfortunate. This is ~~e point I am t:ying to make. :-tR. JA.~IESON: Would the han. ministe= yield - :<!R. SPEAKER: (Sin:ms) The han. LeaC.er of the Opposition. :-!?.. JAMIESON: - just:. for a comment or a quest.:.cL' 1 simply want to say to :tim that I think if he looks at the record t..":at t.'1e conclusion at the end of t..l.;.e request bet:'deen Newfoundland 36::::'7

- ;.:over..be:: 28, 1979, Tape 1446, Psge 1 apb >!R. JAH!ESON: and ~e Government of canada for s~atus in t~ose ne;otia~ions, it was mutually agreed that it was not desirable. T can qive all of ~~e reasons and I believe some of them came out in private conversation to which one of your colleagues was privy the other evening 1 but I can assure you that. it was not - ! hope the implication was not ::hat we refused. They knew all the information but it beca~2 wiser ~o stay out. The hen. the :1inist:er of !:inance. DR, COLLINS: Yes, I clearly accept ~~at. The point I am making is that the approach was made.

It did not come off. Whether it was refused -and the han. the Leader of the OpFoSition says that it was not refused, and I certainly accept that- it was :nutually decided not to ahead with i<:., I still make the point that this was must unfortunate because •,;hen the deal W"aS struck down there,~ •.;~hat did we find? :·ie found that the ~1ova Scotians and w~e Y~ritime provinces in par~icular, t~ey let all the cod :_:o, t.'ley were quite happy to be left W"i'c:h the scallops.

New, t.Ita t in :::.y mind raises a question; "'hy would they disregard ~~e cod down t.i.ere, and t."lere were many fishe:rn:en in t.he :.!ari times who said that this was a mistake, why were 'they quite happy in letting the coci go? The Fishery ~inister in Nova Scotia s::id, "This is a qreat day for our Province when this deal was struck.'' So ~"tere is no doubt ~out it, that officially they were quite ~a~p7 to have a cod alloca t.iun. And I suspect t!"la t they '"ere looking elsewhere for a -:od allocation.

They W"el:'e quite hapr:y to l'2t the cod allocat:ion go down t~ere so they could get a ver>J large share of the scallop fishery because they had ~~e eye on :;:,u.r :lon:h.er:-: o:od. I think this is •,.rhere, i£ we had observer status, at lease, ·.;e ~ould have been able to raise the red flag. Also, it was not ;ust tnose t·,;o s;?ec.i.~::, :;,nvol 'Jed. chink there ""as a total of t·Nenty-ei,ght s::;:ec:::.es involved scme of ·..:hich ::J.re impor:::lnt to c:s, ?or inst-ance, 3629

~rovember 28, 1979, Tape 1446, ?age 2 -- apb ::m. COLLINS: redfish is one of the species ~nvolved ~~ere and ~~is is ~~e species ~~at ra~ges widely, including into our area. The United States achieved a very large alloca~ion of ~edfish down ~~ere and not t~e Canadian side. This again ~ight, in fact, turn out to work to our disadvantage. I am merely ~rying ~o emphasize the point ~hat the jurisdictional question has ~o be very carefully followed, had to be locked at in all possible guises and ·,.e would be ill-advised if we did not keep our guard up on ~~e jurisdictional question to the ~4x~mum degree. M,.'!'{.

SPEA.'<ER(Simms}: Opposition. :-Ltt. JA."1IESON: is an infor:ndl afternoon. JR. COLL:!-lS: :·!.'q,_, JA.'.f.IE:SON: The han. the Leader of t~e I hope you 'Nould agree this surely. ~ay I just ask the han. ~ember if he is aware that that ~reaty has not yet been ratified by ~e United Sta~es and that, indeed, the likelihood of it being ratified in the immediate future is extremely remote?

I make the ?oint because it does reflect on the 'Nhol.e barqaining process that went on - and it is in answer to his question; he said he ·..;ondered why cer-cain allocations were made and so en. !t 'Nas a negotiating process and ti1e A."tlerican fishernen J.re :J.pplying e:<:trer:te pressure and it is doubtful, I am told, whe~,er there will be swif~ ratification of it, I just wanted him to be aware of that fac~ if he 'lias not. JR. CGLL!NS: Yes, ! was aware t..~at it had net been ratified. ~icw,',.,rhether it will be or not is anot..'1er T:atter.

I believe, also, it is renewable in something like ~en years any-..;ay. So, : ;nean, t...'l.ere is clea::-ly some protection ~'l.ere but. ! still ':.hink my poi:1c is •nlid. Anc~'l.er fisure that might be ::elt_:lful ::.ere is to underst:a:-~d t.hat ',·te s-:.ill have .:i '?er'J large 3623

c-Jover..ber 28, l9i9, Tape 1.446, Page 3 -- apb DR. COLLI!1S: foreign offshcre e£for't. i:1 t:.b.e Canadian jurisdictional waters. In 1978, there ·,.;as a total of nearly 400 - t:J1ere were 39i - foregin offshore vessels prosecuting ~,e fishery in our area, in what might be called the c-Jewfoundland area of t..'1e of!shore area. In 19i9, L~at has i~proved somewhat. There were 2ii licences in ~~is current year so there is some improvement there. But there still is a verJ large offshore e.: fort out ::here and our aim, of course, is to ::-educe that to the absolute rnini=nll!l' .• :-tr.

Speaker, the last ;oint I should like to make is this; who ultimately will and should own the fishi:1g effort in this Province? :·<ow, it obviously •,.;auld be very desirable :or Newfoundland ownership -:a be paramount, but it is not going to be easy to achieve that. :'he ·,;ay things are going, it seerr.s to be a fur..her and fur~~er aream. DeveJ.oprnent in this Frovir.ce, I sus:pose, if one looked at the broad te~~s, is going co depend upon our hydro, our offshore it is qoing to depend on our :nining and it is going to depend on our forest industry, leaving 36~0

::overr.ber 23, 137? Tape :-.o. 1447 :1H - l JR. J. COLLINS: aside the fishery for the moment, :Jaw all these are very expensive co develop. There are tremendous inves~~ents involved in all these, except for perhaps some parts of w~e :orestrt, but =ertainly in mini~g, certainly in hydro, =ertainly in the offshore. The invest~nt that is required for any of these is so huge that:. it is cxnl.ikely that there will be much of a :lewfoundland ~undla on any of it, with ::he exception ! suppose of hydro.

On the other hand, our other ~~Jar resource, that is the :isherJ, really lends itself to multiple small inves~~ents, small investments that can be handled in t..'le ~lewfoundland context. And I think that: this is ':he '<~ay we have co a;;;proach it:. He have to try co encourage on a multiple small !.:lasis Newfoundland investment in the fishery. Now if we do not do that what '"'ill happen otherwise?

If •,.;e do not do t..l-tat we can clearly see the day when what is almost :tow che multi-national in the !ishincr industry will take over. ,;nd ·_,;e 3.re seeing ::hat:. increasingly now. \1e see that wi~'l t:acional Sea. ~ie see that 'Nith Nickerson. !.J:R. NEARY: mulci-nat~cnal - DR. :;. \:CLLINS: I::; W 1 1at your governr:lent•s n~licv t:n lin!'!udi~l..,\ inat,;Ciblel • The aim and objective of government policy is to encourage Newfoundland ownership ,but:. '"'e have to recognize it is extreml;!ly dif::ic~lt to counter these influences that are posed aga1ns:: us.

And I think. it ·,muld ;;.ot be accepta.bh: to :-Jee~f;:,undlunders t.o ·JC the ~:cadit:ional way, whicfl ·.uas to subsidi:::e ::~erely a fe•d small ":le<e~foundland c:lrqanizations" such as ::;,e :.ake group, suc:-t as the 1'\onroe group and so on • I do not think it ·,·auld ::,e acc::eptable :.:: 'de suos1di::ed ::::ose :o the ;;iegree t:hat: -:l-,ey could :'ace :19 in :-ompet.ition to :Jational .Sea and so on. 'ole have c:.o qo t:-.e other rou::e of subsidi::ins, 0nccurag:..ng, sti:r.ulat.!.ng the ::1any small ::L:;h.ing ~n<:erpr.!_ses t:!:>at are s~.:ll _?resent. i:1 our ?rovince. 3ut ·e~e have to .J.dd :.his ;:ro\nso,

:Joven'..ber 28, 1979 Tape :-Jo. 1447 NM - 2 DR. J. C"JLLINS: have to be formed inca consortia .:md. J.n particular 1 they will have to be given cor.siderable back­ '..l? in their merchandising clout. ':.'his is an area perhaps that ·-;e have not paJ.d attention co ::a the degree 'JJC should. We are doing qul.te well in harvesting,! suppose, • . .;e are not doing too badly l.n ~arms of processl.ng, but we really have not puc our backs inca merch~~dising, and ~~e han. Leader of che Opposition (;1r.

Jamieson)_! think,made this paint too, ~hat ·-;e will noc break into other markets unless ·-;e do :nuch better than ·we have been doing in che merchandising aspect of things. 'tli th those remarks, :1r. Speaker, 'l' would like to add to this debate and all I can say about the motion itsel!: is that this has been a very useful series of discussions. We have :10w covered the field and I do :-:at feel there is :nuch need co go fur't.her '<Ji t:.h it. :-m .• SPEAKER (Simms): :'he han. :::ember for Torngat ~oun'tains. SOHE !ciON. >lEHEERS: Hear, f'.ear! >JR. f.IA.RitEN: C<lr.

Speaker, I 'tlould like to speak in support of t:his resolution. Looking at, "Therefore

be it resolved that the Rouse fully debate all aspects oi the fisheries," :·1r. Speaker, I do not see anything at all wrcng '<lith tha~: :::esolution. believe it is high tir:'lt: that this House did sit down J.nd :':.11ly ~ctate t:.;ie fishery ·..;hich is of the most concern to :nost :,!ewfoundlanders in this Province. Hear, hear! Y.R. f.IA?.P.£:1: 1-lr • .S9eaker, ''" is inr:erest:ing -::o lear!'l that the ~on. :1inister of :"inance {Jr. ,.,. Coll::.nsl does have sct:te ::onnect:ions •Nith t:he fishery, having :-epresenced St, John's South -..,.hich has t.he second larges1: fish Flant in -::he Province.

During t..'J.e past ;:r?vi.ncial sl.;:c::ior. ·;~e heard the na:ne coming up more chan once, the name ::;f fi.::;ii. ~,_,_:. ::::.~.:.p::; New --;e do not have a :':ish minister as such in ::hi;;; House, but probably

c;overnber .;;o, 1979 NM - 3 HR. :1ARREN: ·-<e can bods tow tlot:h t:i t:les on the :·Iinister of E'inance, call hi:n Fisn .lnd Chirs. Because apparently he does know a little bit about the fish, more so probably than - we11 1 there is no ::ishery minister so at least we give hir.; credit there. It •,.;as worth noting that. the winister did note that the Fisheries Loan Board is in trouble, 36:13

::ove..'!'.ter :a, 1979 Tape 1448 ?K l it is a grave concern. :1ow,the minister hi. .. .rnsel£ is sayi:J.g that. And the han. memb~ who ~rcusht in this resolution is s.:>ying exactly -:he same thing and that we should debate it. so if a member on the opposite side of the House is saying that it is a mess, why should we not debate it? !.1.r. Speaker , there were indications and indi­ cations expressed by the member for Placentia C.'1r ..

Patterson), that fish is very i~por~ant to our ?rovince. ;;nd unfartuna tely, this white paper that came out :o::- a five year plan has not been debated in this House and I believe it: is high time that "He as me:nbers, representing f..iity-t'NO districts .:...n this Province ,should sit down and debate the vital ite:n that !.s i:nFort:ant: to the lives of people ;..n chis Province and chat is fish. ;,lr, Speaker, : am going to dwell a little on che Loan aoard !Jecause to me it is more than in a. :ness, it is w shambles. ~R. R. ~CORES: ~R. R. ~CORES: yr.R. :,;A.?-::U:~; Now. It is complete turmoil. Hear, hear!

You know, I wrote to the Acting Chairman vf che Loan aoard on OCtober ::,asking for 1..n£ormat.::..cn. He could not c•1en send back any i.n£or:na tion co me. .;nd it •;~as just basic 1..n.:armat.::..on. Only JUSt last: 'Neek I wrote, on ~love...'t'..ber 19, asking for a simple quest..ion, H<)W many Jpplications have been sul::r:utted ::rem reside:-:ts in the Torngilt :-tount.lin -:iistrict for leans? How many a!fpl:tcations arc: :m file the:.;:: ,,ave not been a;:provr!d?

And I sot an answer bacl': saying, '",'/e acknawlccci.ge 'fOur letter, we will pass it along to the Act:i;;g ~linister to see "Nhat we can :io".. tutd this ·,.;as .:rom t .. he Ac:<;:..ing Ct'.airman of -:he :.can 3card .. :·-:r. s;::eake.r, just t:o .:;eiterate ::;erne >:Jther things c:hat 3.re gOJ .. ng Dn with ':he Loan Soard and the bount·J applL::..J.tions and iiO on. :.:.:art-..;rc.gi"lt on Apr.t..l 19, seven ;;;onths 3..go, six :Jr seven :::onr:hs ago, and

;Jovembe.:: 28, 1979 Tape 1448 ?K - 2 the £ishe=y the.r e in June. ':.'hat boat was measured up and all indications were it qualified for the bounty application. You know, that man has not to this day .::ecei·.red a .::eply :.::am the Loan Board. Now. He r~s not received as much as a reply saying chat we got :rour application. :-!r. Speaker, the ?rernier ::here some ~ime ago brought out a press rolease and he noted that there are almost 32,000 licenced fishermen in this ProvL"lce, an increase of 11,000 over the past two years.

I think the big question ·we should ask is, of those 32,000 :fishermen, how many are real fishermen? How many are real licenced fishermen? I know people 'Nho got fishinq licences to go out and catch fish :for the Winter~ Are chey qualified fishermen? They qot a licence. .;nd th.ls is what the ?re..'I!ier is saying here, 'licenced fisherm·:m'. There are several hundred people in my district alene who c:m go ot.::t and catch fish for their own consumption and they need a licence to do ;:his. Is ':.h.1s what the ?remJ.er is ·::alling licenced :'i::hermen?

Hr. speak<!r, t:.h.e ?:rernier also saJ.d in this release, "At present there are 600 a~plications still on .::il.e, involving approxir.1ately SJQ t:~illion". n·aw I the fisher:m<::n in this Province' in Labrador and on ch.,o Island portion of the ?rovince 1 are not receiving ~hY correspondence bdck from the Fisheries Loan aoard. 'iou know, ::he::e are fishermen '<Jho have as high :>.s $4,000, S5,JOC, ::;6,000 and 57,000 ~led up in the Loun Beard. It is just leit with the Loan Board. The f:'..:::.her:1',0n's rr,oncy is l0£t with t.he Loan aoard.

;-iove:rber 28, 1979 Tape 1449 EC - l It would be okay if ~~ey were go~ng :o invest i~ :or the fishermen and allow ~~e fishermen to get i per cent or 8 per cent interest on it., but it is just lying there. Is the Loan Board using this rncne.y to finance the Loan Board itself? And here are ~~e fishermen, in cases, having to go to social assistance in order ~o get along :nont:.'l. by month because their money is tied up in :..~e :can Board for the past six or seven ~n~~s. And ~,is is happening, Hr.

Speaker, and it is a very serious case. ! had a call not too long ago from a fishermen saying, 'Will you contact the Loan Board for me and tell them to send back my money. -r- need my r:~oney for this man~~. The money is t:.ied up since last April.' :1r. Speaker, I have only about a half ·:-.our and I am sure that if I want to go right on through tne fisheries it is going to take much longer :.han a half hour. I . .,ant to mention that the gear subsidy progra.."'llt'.e was d.nnounc:ed by the former Minister of Fisheries on ;;.ugust. '?t.:.'l. :~ow one t:.ime in ::_h,i::;: ':lon.

House, shortly after that:., I mentioned L~is same gear subsidy programme.

Incidentally, L~is is the first suc."'t programl'ne that -:1as been introduced for fishermen in :.a:oraUor. :isherrnen on ~~e Island ?Ortion of the Province had gear subsidi~s be=cre. 5ut ti1e::e is one grave ~once::n -=xpressed in t..'tis ·~hole philosophy of ,:;ear subsidy. \~1lac it is c!.oing is tell~ng the fisher.::cn, 'Look, we ,.,ill subsidize a new gill net for you, . .,e will subsidize a new cod t.rap for you, but ,...e will not subsidize t:.he linit ~'l.at goes in your cod trap.' Jr say, for exa:nple, this ;ear - 3..\ld I t.'1i~ fie are all aw.J.re of it - t.:1ac :..'1.ere are ::any, rnar,y •.;hales in o1..1.r 'Nat.ers aro~.;.nd the Island.

A.nd a '""aale goes ~'>rough a fisher:na.'1'S ~od trap and ?rooably :ices $300 or S~OC -,.ro!:'<:.-. c: damage to t.1e t;·,.rine ar:d. headings and lead =o~es ar.C sc on. ::c•...;, do t::1e :isnermen have ::o ::..'lrcw away all of ti1at cod ::rap :.n ordc.:r sear ?rcgr.::ur.De .:.s say.:.::.g. ,;nC, you knew, i.e. does not. ~ake .:>ensc - :::ore :or ls::::~, ':hrcw awey all ~'le ::.snl.ng c:;ear JOU. :1ave ::ow a::C ,.e A.:.ll 3635

~overrber 28 1 1979 Tape 1449 sc - 2 ~~ei: old gear, ~~ey mend ~~ei: gear. If t.'ley need new rope !:or their gill nee they will buy the new rope, ::,ut ~his subsidy does not. include that. So how in t..'1.e heck is t..his subsidy going to help the !:ishermen~ It is okay for a new fisherman just. starting, but. what. about. t..'1.e fishermen who have worked by the s.,.,.eat. of their brow for the last ten or twelve years to :na.ke ends meet:? !iR. N"EAR Y : :1R. WAR.RE!1: Oil is all t:hey are interested in. 'les, :-tr. Speaker 1 I t::1.ink t.1.ere is definitely too much concentration on oil.

All we near about,in :act since June l8t..~ after we got si~~ and tired of fish and ~~ips - all we hear about. is oil and no claps. ?an of ehe wife 1 s car. :1?.. :·l;'Jt.t:l.E!t: J\nd no oil. And no oil eit..1.er. Right. There is ::lore oil in =he base I agree with ~~at. t.oo, ;A.r. Speaker. I have a book here, Labrador ?~sources Advisory Cou.-'l.cil - Policy an Fishery in LabraC.or. I •,.rant to qucee from this book. It says on page one :."tat t:.,_e people want a living developed. 'All t.."le people on t..,_e coast a:-e dependent on t.:1e !:isherJ.' ::ow -:..:1is ·.o~as a quotation from an LIC seminar in 1978.

You !>now, 35 per cent of t.he residents from ~lain down t.o :. 'Anse-au-Clair have to depend on :..'1c fisnery for survival )Jecause there is no other :najor industry in :::.at .J.rea. :,Jew, all they want. is recog:ut..ion, !1r. Sp;aker, and :.."tat :.s nee !'lappening. By 1974, draggers from foreign countries fishing off the Har..ilt.on BaMs pret.t.]' ·,..rell depleted :.."te fish st.::c.l<s. From :.?72 co 1974 t."l.ere ,..,.ere less ::han :,000 :;.u.:.n':.als of fish c.::!.ugnc all along ~'>-= :.al::;radcr coasc because t.he l!a.-nil::or. Banks was just. cl.:=aned :)UC ~y fcre~gn draggers 363'?

inGicaticns t.'1.1.t t;le f.:.;:;:nery i.::; returning to cte Hamilton 3a.nks, Eu.e :..\t! ir.si1ure fi;;;i:c-nren ;.be ;:;;ff.ort.l.;!;.i::.y t:.o reat: the ;.i1r•,res::.. w. s;,;~r:;::.:::.::; ' You cannot. ;:atci> tl•e silr:.c fi:>.1 t·.-.-ice -""'" >u"..E.?l:.!l ' :1r. S~ca...!.,:8'r, t!"liit is true as r.y .1or •• in :nany, ::1.any ye<lrS. :;p. s ... ,;."".._ ;

'ie nave :1eara. c,u::; ~cverncer.t. Luri.ng ~he fa;;;t. ~tree or four :,·e:ars 1 L1e :•inister of Fi~heries car.-_in; u;; to J:..abraCor anC ::;aying ":.eel:, Zo::·s you :cllc·,.·s have to get into -:.he longlir.ers, ::.:1at L,, .:::. .:ain '.:.",i.:o Sum.-;.er ',,;,o went and ;:urchaseC a lonsline!r 14 odd :.:.:cusar.C: dollars, i::. •.;as a sec::.::c! ha.'1d one, hs a:.,..plievl to t~e l:;.:.:1 i:oard and the lean L.oard said, "::o, '-'.e canr.ct :i;-.ance J'CU Lave r~ot ::;:::en a c:. cnc ,tanC. 3<l.Jir.g, "Lock, get into t:-,e longl.iners", an~ <At t:i~ ::.:.i.nr; t.ecause :.:cur ;;oat. is over thf..::ty-five fe•::!t."

~ovember 26, 1979, Tape 1451, ?age 1 -- apb I do no~ know what the ?urpose of it • .. ;as but - I do not ti'.ink anyone else does really - but it says on page twenty that approximately 200 people are working at ::ish processing in Labrador. Hr . Speaker, t.."lere are approx:irr.ately twenty people '1.-orking at fish !_)recessing in :abrader because there is no fish processed in Labrador, the fish it taken to ot~er parts of ~~is cauntrj and sent down to the United States to be processed. There are nat 200 •,.rork:ers. There are 200 workers in '=he fish plants.

There are 200 workers there helping to clean the fish but there are not 200 ;..'Orkers helping to get that fish ready for the table. !1r. Speaker, this ;ove~~ent has said time and time again ~"lat we need bigger fish 9lant.s. In ~ain and ~~kkovik ~"lis past Surr~er we were unable to cope with the fish coming in because the !:ish planes are inadequate. ~'ie have fishermen in Dav.i.s Inlet •,;ho had to t.."lrow away t:.1eir !:ish. There were over 8,000 pounds of salmon, a ve~ delicate :isll,that were gradQd nu."i"..ber 2. :·ihy was it graded number 2? Because of this government. That is exactly ::..'le reason why.

Because this government ~p;r::U:8a '="''0 fish pl.ints in :,;or~1ern Labrador but t.'1ey did not have ice. The ice was not available to keep ::he salmon :rozen until it got to ':he fish plant:s. :.tr. Speaker, t!tis •,;as brought to the attention of the provincial Department of ?isheries during the Swrsner. :,:;e have !:ishermen in Davis Inlet ·who had to '"'ait t!ays for the col:!.ector to come there •..;ith t:.hat ice and ~';.is caused ~"le salmon to become ~lli~ber 2, ~nd to be ::iu.rnped i:. the long-run. >!r.

S;:;eake!:", we c::ame .:1. _ong ·,.a? during t!1.e 2asc: years in fisher! d.evelop:nen::., in t.."te 'Ntole fishe::::-; prograrr.me i:1 Labrador. :?resent -;cvernment.. They did ':io a lot to help 'Nit:h t:he fishery bu::: t:.!1i'"re is still r:mch, ::1uch ::10re to be done. 3Gtl0

:-;over.£er 28, 1979, Tape 1-1-51, Page ;,L'q. :TEARY: fish plants. !<!R • :-lEARY : ;.m. WARREN: :1R. :-IEARY: :O!R. ;.;ARREN: ~~ey improved them, but not enough. .:1R • :1EARY : -- apb What did the;..· do? \'lell, they built the two Oh no they did not. Oh yes. I beg your pardon. well, they increased them, I was the one ·Nho built: the fish plant: in Nain and started ~~e one in Hakkovik. Yes, you started the one in Hakkovik but they finished it, see. So, l1r. Speaker, the fish plants are there.

The han. member for LaPoile (H:=. ~iearf) :nay have started ~~e fish plant in ~~kovik but this government has finished ~~e~ up to the point that they are still not adequate. ;-;ha:: is am saying, Mr. Speaker, is regardless of how much you do there is still much, much more to be done.

Until ·.;e can sit down in this House and stand up in our turn and debate the whole philosophy, :he whole policy of fishery development in this ?rovinc:e - . ..,.e get up on this side of the House time and time again and say, ·~ok, all you fellows are concerned about ~s oil.' If we pick up a magazine there are thirteen pictures of the ?re~ier in an oil rig. I do not see w'1i:::::t:een pictures of t.~e Premier with a fishing outfit on. C:-'.R. ~lEARY~ :1R. Ji!..!1IESCN: ~o, ~'1at is right. Hear,hear~ Do not encourage hi~.

Probably next :nont..'1. 'Ne ·.;ill. ::t is amaz.ing the number of phone ::3.lls \.;e get .lnd. I am sure t..'le gover:ur.ent members get also. People are :nore ::oncer:ted 'Nith other problems than with oil and ~J,_e ::tajor --:oncern is the fisher:r.en. As ~he ?remier said, there are 32,JCO fisherrr.cn. Set us :Oase that on a f.J.r:",il:r of !:our. '!'hat :.s ;,early one-quar::er of c::>ur population Cepend.i:1g on -:he fisher'}.

- :<ovember 28, 1979, Tape 151, Page 3 -- at:b t1r. Speaker, I t.hink :rry time is pretty well consumed. By leave. MR. \~AR."tEN: ! will just stop now. I have a few other ~~iugs to say but ! believe that Carry on. - will forget about it. want to bring tlp one other item chat is •rery i:nportant and it does concern the fishermen. From Nain do;..n to L'Anse au Clair, of the 95 r.:er cent <t;;,a are fishermen 70

November 28, 1979 ':'ape No. 145.:! SD-1 MR, G. HARREN: per cent are fishermen who use outboard motors and small boats. This is the way they !ish, with small boats and outb~ard motors. Now, this has been a tradi­ tion for years and years and they are going to continue it because this is where they are most comfortable, in the small boat, a twenty-two foot boat, probably, or twenty­ five foot boat with a twenty or thirty or fifty horsepower outboard motor. MR. NEARY: t1R. G. WARREN: And one man maybe (inaudible)and his And usually one man and his wife, probably, helping him.

Now, what I am gettinq at is that the Loan Board, when it was operational and that is some tine ago, would give loans to anybody with an inboard motor. Anybody with a diesel motor or a gasoline motor or inboard motor would be able to obtain a loan from the Loan Board.

But no fisherman can obtain a loan, or could in the past - no one can now period - could obtain a loan for an outboard motor to prosecute the fishery. ~l'ow, I am going to throw this open as a suggestion and as a sincere suggestion :or the fishermen, in particular alons the Labr3dor coast, who depend on an outboard ~otor for their livBlihaod, that if the Loa~ Board is reactivated at leas~ ;ansideration should be aiven to fishermen who use outbcard ~ators to prosecute the fish~ry. Thank ~rou. SOME HON. ME~!ERS: Hear, hear. ~R. SPEAKER: (:.l.r. Baird) The han. ~inister of ?ublic ~arks and services.

SOME HO!l. ~EMBERS: ;!ear, hear. !-!, YOU:TG: :qr. Speaker, I 'HOLlld liil:e !:O r.:ake 3 few remarks concerning this resolution. after two days of debate concernino the :isheries, I am sere

November 28, 1979 Tape ~1o. 145 2 SD - 2 ~R. H. YOUNG: we could go on, Sir, during the full term of this session and there would still be something to be saia about the fisheries. I feel that after two days of debate the resolution itself is totally useless. And the otl1er day I was listening to the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde and his remarks on radio.

It, Sir, was the same old negative attitude of the Opposition concerning the fisheries, it was the same negative attitude that they used when the joint ventures were in, it was the same negative attitude as when Nordsee was discussed and now it is the same old negative attitude as they used with the distribution centre or, as some like to call it the superport. I was listening to the member from Torngat Mountains concerning the fisheries.

I ur:.der- stand that lhe hon. gentleman worked with the Department of Fisheries ou the Labrador Coast and ! trust that some of the problems he had down there, he tried to iron out while he ~as working with the depart~ent. What is concerning me, Sir, a~out the landing facilities in the Harbour Grace area and the negative attitude of the Opposition, is that one ~ust reali:e now that there are 10,000 metric tons of fish being landed in Nova Scotia and that will probably increase over the next three or four years.

I feel that we in 9ewfoundland, regardless of where the superport goes, we must have landing faciliti~s. And in today's paper, Sir, it says that Canada can more than double fish exports by 1985. And it says here, Sir, 'By 1985, ~ said the report, 'the TAC for Canadian cod wi!l be 620,000 tons with all but 20,000 tons of this located on the East :cast. The TAC for the ~orthern stocks will be in the range of 350,000 to 400,000 tons an esti~ate which has recently ~een revised ~pward co this level on che basis of recent data on stock recover'].' ~low, ~1r. S?eaker, I f~el t!'.a~ we as a Provine~

November 28, 1979 Tape so. 1452 Sd - 3 ~R. H. YOUNG: should go to Ottawa as a Province and not in the partisan way that the opposition are talking about the superport. I ~~ ~onfident, Sir, that the superport in Harbour Grace will go dhead. I feel that when arrangements are made, when the fish quotas are set and the trawlers are assigned, that the superport will go ahead in Harbour Grace, !, for one, Sir, do not want to see it go ahead like the other factories and so forth that were built in the Harbour Grace area, such as the 36~5

:-:ave:nber 28, 1979 Tupe :1o. 1453 NH - 1 rubber factory, or the chocolate t:ac;:ory, or the batt,c.ry fact:cry, or the glove :actory, and one could go on ar.d on. ! have no intentions of fooling ~~e people of Harbour Grace. The people of Rar!::our Grace 'Nero fooled once before 'Ahen 3ir::is~we ::::ame there. AN HON. :!"'"lEER: :1R. YOUNG: !iR, N'!::AR'::~ >l.R. YOUNG: :,L~. '1CUNG: Who owned it? ?arCon? '-'~11o ovmed it? Birdseye? Yes. :~-no ;.;as responsible for t.hat? Joey was re~pon:;ible. 17 <'000 people in Harbour Grace .:u-.ci :::o, 000 :;;eopl~ of ?art: de Grave. :1R. )lEARY: ?rank :Juff Nacres. :1R.

YOUNG: Frank Duff :-!cores sold it: out. He 'tlas :nade to sell cut. He ·was told to sell out or they would close :1im up. :.iay. A!1 HCU. :1E~·l3ER: >lR. NE2\RY: i'lo. Do not be so foolish boy. And you ·;.tere a par-:: c:>f the government cf that Do not be so foolish boy. (Inaudible) . :'hat i5 .,,here he made his money. That: is where he :nade )",is killing. :-JR. '!Out<G: !1e r:lade it by the: sweat of i1is brow. ~~s~ no ioubt about that.

Leak, !£ anyone is successful in business tne ben. member 1.::; dead G9.!Jcsed to hirrt. ::hat: :.s one :::hir-,g i.lboct the han. rrterrbe::, if JOU are success::ul in business in t:h~s ?rovi:J.ce t.hc !1on. member _s up gabbing about you• and :::-alE::g '/OU down to :.he ii!."t . .301.E :-!CH. >!E.'!BERS: 2·h, oh!

;:ovember :s, l0i9 Tape ~o. 1453 :-;M - 2 ?he han. member never earned a dollar by the sweat of his awn brow do not suppose in his life. :-t.'R.. :-lEARY: -r am not out chiseling the ?ocr people in times of sorrow. r am- not out chiseling. ;.1R. YOUNG: That is a profession and I am 9roud of it. Enjoying the ~ :-l.R. YOUNG: I am proud of it. :1R. SEAR'i: {inaudible) raised the ::tigh cost of dying in ~his Province. The han. gentleman ~news all about that.. :m. YOUNG: :1r. Speaker, the fish plants in the Concepcion Bay area, Sir, only ·,;ark about - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: HR.

SPEAKER (Sirrmts) : Order, please! - four ~o six months a year and I feel that t.here must:. be 'Nark :-tine or ten or eleven months. I have no arguments ·c~ith ::~y colleague from Placencia (:·u:. ?att:.erson) when he expressed ~is opinion ccncerning ~he superport in Harl::our Grace. He has read the Kellogg Report, I have not. And he got his mvn otnnions concer:;ing the oil re:inery in Come By Chance. He is at: liberJ on this 5ide, the ::reedcm ·we have to get U!J and speak how we like and ·c~hen we like. >1e are ne•.rer told \·Jhat to do.

C1ow, 5ir, ! am proud that t::.e money !1as been spent by this government since 1?72, since I ~ave been a part of t:hl.s ~overnt:".ent, in r.:he :isheries. ::: would say it is about ten :.imes 1 probably, ten times •,;hat was s;.:ent, more than chac,: suppose i~ 1371 and .!.972. :tR. DOYLE: ?iiteen times. 2if~ecn. >JR. "IOUNG: ?if~een ~imes, ~he ~on. member tells ~e. The budget in 1971, the .-liniscer cf Fisheries of ti1at. da:t - >tR. DOYLE: :ii2.5 :nil.!.ion. ------ - I .;suppose it 'c~as ,:tbom: s:. 5 :nil lion. What is ::. ::cday? :529 2.1.11:-o::. 36.1.'7

;:ovember 28, 1979 Tape No. 1453 ~H - 3 }1R. YOUNG: S29 million, Every fish plan~ in ~-Ie•Nfoundland, except Arnold's Cove, was built by a Liberal Government. ;1R. YOUNG: :1r. Speaker, I think the best thing for me to do, instead of gol.ng arguing with the han. member, I would like to close my remarks, Sir, by quoting from ~,e bible. Now, Sir, this is from the new English version and it is from :1atthew VII, verses 1 to 5. Now, Sir, this will sum up the attitude of the Opposition. "Pass no judgement and ye will be not judged. As you judge others so '<Jill yourselves be judged.

And ·whatever ::v~asure you deal out to others will be dealt back to you. Why do you look 3.t the speck of sawdust ln your brother's eye ·Nit:h r:ever a thought for the great plank in your o<.v11? Or bow can you say to your brother, ~Let me t.J.kc ':he speck out of your eye, ' 'Nhen all the time there is a plank in :tour own. (Inaudible). :-!R. YotmG: You hyfocrites. F:!.rst take che plank out of your own eye and then y-ou will see clearly to take t..'1e speck cut of JOUr brother's.'' Thank you, :1r. Speaker. SOH£ HON. :1EHBE?.S :_ :-tear, hear! >1?.. SPEAKER (Baird): The hen. ~ember ~or Burin-Placentia West.

SO:·!E HCN. >1EHEERS: Hear, he.J.r! >1R. HOLT'"'TT: Hr. Speaker, ,..,hether ! :lm going ':o b~ j',tdqed or not I certainly :eel that t.he matter of the fishery in ~his Province - >!R. ~lEARY : He ~s probably gec=lng your measur~ments "'hile you are stanC.l.ng up there. :-m. :JOLLET'!': - it: this ?ro .. ·ince is ·.vorthy :;;£ tilking :hat -:::hance. P. ... '1d :;: :ind it sor:lewhat dis:1r;pointi.ng, through this :ieb2.t0, :::J.at ::~ere i.s J. lot -::;f ::-e:erence back t-::> the '60's, '""0' s, 0az-ly '""J's, last: year even. 3648

:1ove:rrd::er 23, 19i9 Tape ~-o. 1453 ~H - 4 :·lR. NEARY: Step into the '80's. ! think that if '4e are going to make progress in the fisheries in this Province 'He have to look towards the future. S0!1E HC!'I. :-tL'1B~"RS: Hear, hear! :-1P.. HOLLETT: A.nd I use that expression deliberately. And I :night say, :-1r.

Speaker, that for a person who represents, if not the largest fish producing district in this Province ~ertainly very close to it, I am certainly very proud to be in a region that on a ~er capita basis produced more fish than anywhere else in ~is Province, or probably Atlantic Canada. :1e do r:.m: look upon fish ·,.;ith :my negative attitude. To us it has been a way of life since the first settlers. t-ie have not deviated from ~i:e fisheries since that time. And I might inform this Eouse that everybody whc lives in that region and en that Coast are ·Jery, very proud of the acccrnplishments that ~e ha•Je made

- :~over.ber 28,1979 Ta?e :l'o. l.454 AH-1 .'1.R.HOLLE'!'T: and those of us, ~'1('; f=.w 'Nho visit. :.here or care to visit"- 1 can see what hard work ~concrnic ~rcsress can te =erived from a well t:ought out and a well implemented fishert programme. ~ ~ight s~y ~~at compliment individual fishe=::-,en and companies ·.;ho function~ in tJ1at area during t.,e years, ·"' they had to wait for ~;.e guidance of government in the total sense ,..e would still =e back in the 1920s.

The people en ~~at coast have worked and wcrked hard and they Ceserve every credit that can be given them ei-:.i1er orally, :::.r.ancially or in any other manner. ;l.s a matter of fact 1 r am quite proud here t.l-:!is afternoon to have in this House a gentleman who is probably, certainly in~! opinion,ane cf t.,e most innovative t.;.inkers in the fishing industry, who has done mo=e prc.tably as an individual in the fisheries than any other one person that ! have had ~,e pleasure to call a friend and he is sitting right here in the gallery. Hr. Speaker, ti.1i.s is ;;.:rsan '-"OO :::ade the fishery, ~tr.

Harvey .'1ajor. SC!.<J:: ::tCN .:·!EHEERS: Hear, hear~ !tR. HOLLETT: "lho started in frcm ?etites anC worked 'lis 'Na'] up the hard ·.~ay like most people did en t.~at coast. ~!R. STAGG: ~ell us mere ~bout it. ~R. HOLLETT: for Stephenville (!1r,Stagg) 1 I would be only to Froud to te:.l you about it. Earn in ?etitez, worked hard, :ish plant manager, ?isherJ ?rociucts 1 equi:;mer.t, types of !::cat::;, a t:elper to all the inshore fishe~en, Danish seinir-g and ! could use up t...'1e t·went:; minutes en the gentler:tan if :.·cu. ·N.:::ild care :or ~e to and =e quite proud to de it. (Inaudible) T!".at is right.

And 'f a.m glad ::.o see :Ci:n here. rs he a ?c?

•Jcver..ber ::a ,1979 Tape No. 1454 .:;J{-2 .'-!P.. HOLLETT: I am not aware of the gentleman's politics. He probably would not have been quite as successful in his job if 1 did know. ~P.. ~-lEARY: Any party would be glad to have him. ~R. i-!OLLET!': Mr. Speaker, in relation to ~~e fisheri~s and even in relation to the remarks that the hon. :1inL;ter of Hnance (:Jr.Collins) made! I am quite happy to know that t.~-.ey have the second largest fish plant in St. John's. I am also ver; proud to know e...;,at the majority of the c:re~.Js who iand all the fish to keep t.\;e indusU""J going come from our region.

And ~1-te other point:, :-lr. :-li:l- i.ster,i<C '-s a man, if you have not t'.et hi::t then I reccrr:r.~nd that you do,he is a Captain Kelly frc~ a iittle place called Beau Bois. It was either last year or the year before his boat landed mere fish thdn any other one boat in Eastern Canada, 9.5 million pounds. .JR. COLi.l:iS : t-.1lo C.id you say it was again? :-JR. HOLLETT: Kelly. Captain Kelly :rem Eeau Bois.

T~se are t:te tvn<;<s of t::ecple "no are net just in St. :ohn!s or en the Eurin Peninsula bUt. in ~ova Scotia, in ?EI and -:he :--::ew England st.atcs .. ~~d even back in the years gone by when there wer~ draggers in Harl:::our Grace, t..~ey were also crewecl by men frcrn 0::"1at coast.. The: are ~~e 9uts of ~~e Ceep~sea fisherJ in this ?rovipcc. They keep it all going \-;inter and Sumner.

They are t:.he ones t.\;at i:-.sure bat: en t;,e aurin Peninsula alene we have clc!>e t.o 3,000 full-ti:ne, year-rct.r.d workers in cur fish plants and I arn happy co say are ear:1ing high 'dages and :1ave a v0.cy, ver1 seed way of life which they are all proud of. :TEL .ST~.GG: How much do t.~ey :r:a}:c on '::.2;e av&: age? Plant workers, $12,000 or Sl5,0:JO. :Jeep-sea fisher:r.en, i:~. excess of 520 ,JCO. Shore fishern-:en, all i:1clusi.ve in ~xcess of $20,JOO. It is a geed ·,;ay o£ life, :·!r. sreaJ.:e=. :\nd t.::.is is ·why : · .. ·auld lii<:e tc rnak.e a few c:cr:u::ents in ::-elation t:o t>:.e "<\iniste=

- :;overr.ber 28 .1979 Tafe NO. 1454 i\H-3 whether they are all adopted or not ! am not sure, I was not a me~ber of ~~is House 1 b~t if that report is adopted in its entirety, on the Sout."l coast alwne by 1985 ~t :neans a reduction in '.:!'le numl:er of C.eep-sea trawlers ·...-e have and a reduction in t.~e nu.."l.ber of large long liners we have. ~row, ~tr.

Speaker, I will say right new ~"lat there is nobody on that coast ·...-he will tolerate t."lis because,! repeat,we are the only place in this ?rovince where consistently Cown through t.'i.e years we ~ave pu~ full fait., in fisheries, in tad tines and good times and ! do not think this is cne bit fair.

The other tningoafter a lot of consultation wit.'i. people whw :.;new, provincial, federal, industry, and people in the acaC.emic corr::<unity, t.'i.e ::oncept: by .lnd large of one ~ajor port :or export does ~old scrr~ :nerit..aut:.,::ertainly, our problem in this Provine~, now, to a great extent, is the quality of our product that we are expcr~ing. If we are going to have a top qual!. ty prcC.uct - and I knew e•Jerybody here sh.J.res tl".e concern that consistently the Blue .sncet out: off Boston still puts

:1over.-.ber 28, 1979 Tape No. r.;ss GH-1 ~!R. HOLLETT: hhat I consider our prirr:e product, anywhere fro~ 10 :a 12 to 18 cents a pound less than is being paid for produces from Iceland and :-Iorway and those countries. It is because the best ~~ality in this ?rovince - and a lot of the planes produce good quality is :nixed with the average. Wnless we can get every plant up to a high average ~hen the companies in this Province are going to still lose ~hat 'x' n~ber of cents per pound en each pound of produce exported.

I~ the fish r~s to trucked long distanc~into a large =reezing plant .:..n Harbour Grace, the quality has t.o deteriorate. It would deteriorate again, to a certain extent, when it is defrosted. T~erefcre, we will Ce shipping, to a great extent, an inferior product again, and to me and to a lot o£ people in this Province it makes a lot more sense co regionalize the freezing process.

I£ ic is in .-\rgentia, as is ;resently, i£ one has to be on the Burin Peninsula, .:1nother one elsewhere '..;here there is an abundance of fish in a glut period and otherwise, ther~ is :10 preble::;: at all to ship it to a. ct:!ntral point after it is ;;recessed and frozen or fr.?zen and transported, bec:mse it will ;;.ot deteriorate ·4bile it is frozen in t:he transportation stage.

So, I think this .;:rcble:n has tc be looked at: quite seriously, and I am in full :::oncurrence ·,.;ith -::.y colleague from Placentia, t~lat if t.his supe:::-pcrt concept goes ahead as outlined. in the Kellosg Report it is going to r:1ean that. ~n areas ::.f".at: have >:raditicnally relied totally on the fisher:.es in t.his ?rovince it will detrsct fro~ the initiative, the suality of the ~reduct and tte way of life, and I de net chink anybody here '..:auld like to ;;e.e that Y!r.

Speaker, I should [.>Oint :::.;ut that: :am no ""xpert in the fisheries, but I have worked with it and liveC wich i.t :iirect:ly and indi=ectly all ;.;y life, and certainly : an quite ;;roud c:o ::e asscc1.ated with :::ost th1.ngs that are gccci in the fisheries. find :.t: somewhat amus1.ng even now to see cender calls :cr 'x' Coats ::a ·.;xperi!::enc, :·ou knew, to experiment., t:o do t:he same things, the same ':ype of fisher:• that ·..::1s proved successful tack in t:hG 0wrly ::'if:::.es.

:~ove.."lber 2.8, 1?79 Tape No. 1455 GH-2 ;-s. HOLLETT; ?er.spec't.i•;e on some of the things that b.ave been done in this ?rcvL"''.ce, and le-::: us start with what •,.;e i<:.'1cw will ';,.'Drk. You /:;now, back in those days Danish seining was first introduced t.o t.he '#estern ~1crth Atlam:.ic by Newfoundlanders successfully. The ::irst stern trawler in ~on:.h or South .;meri.ca was into Grand Bank, the very first. We hear a great flap now about !reezer trawlers. Well, the first freezer trawler fished in this ~rovir:ce, t:he name ·,.;as the zeeland owned by tishery Products in Burin about fourteen years ago.

There are presently freezer trawlers fishing out of ports in this Province for specific species, such as shrimp, i.u particular, and fer experimental 'NOrk. : !:lave found it somewhat J..-::using t:he CJther day, and to a cer-r:ain extent amusing because I just cculd not ))el.ieve my ears when the i-linister of Hines and Energy \!·tr. Barry), the ex-member fer Burin-Placentia West, referred to ::he scientiiic community in this country as eggheads, that is what he said, ''::!ggheacts: Now, Hr.

Speaker, if that is '::.he thinking of t.he Cabinet, ar.d I am sure it is not, •,.;hat he did first, he directl:r insultt;d a :.arge group o£ :-J"ewfoundlanders who have worked darned r.ard to be a.'llongst 1;:1e top :narine biologists and ocea:1.ographers, not just in Canada but in t:his 'Norld. have had the privilege to know a lot of them and work with them over the last eight, ten years. I know tlow hard they work. !'hey are reccgni::ed in the international community in the total sense. They are invited t.o fisheries s:.m.posiu.'lls in {.J.oscow, you kn.ow, in Denr.ark.

S.very one that goes on that h.:ls .lnyt=<ing t:o do with t!1e :--lorth Atl.:int:ic, the Pacific and else•tJhere, Canadian scientists are :::tere. If we are go~ng to have a solicy in this Province, you know - the ?re::~iE:r said the ache= day that 'Ne should r:.a.ve :nore infut ~n licencing. I agree, and I can assure you that: : ::auld speak for two b.ours on licer:c.1.ng nonstop, but che ::act is right: now in t.his Province that: i£ -.;e are ;o::.ng to have a :::eascnable and rational licencing polic:t, we have :o :iepend on ot:.r scientific cornmunitt for the basic k.."towledge.

That: ::o:nes out of (:;tta'Na prioarily. However, we ;;ave n;o scientists with ;rovi::ci.3l '!!'lsher:.es, · . .;i1cse job ::;asically

:~overr.ber 28, 1979 Tape 1456 EC - 1 .'-!R. HOLLETT: is to take all this information and compl.le it and ::..1en put:. it. in layman's language so that we can all unC.ers t:and it.

And t.he fact is, Mr, Speaker, that: the information t."ley give comes from ::..~e eggheads in Ottawa, then eggheads here have to put it in language so t:h.at: ·;.~e can understand it, and certainly, if our fishery policJ is going to depend on egghead information or information C.erived from eggheads, t."len we know rl.ght now what our policy is going to be, it is going to be just straight scrambled eggs. :-J.r, Speaker, for t.1l.s side of t."l~ House, r would like to assure ~~ose so-called eggi:leads t.h.at .,..e suppor'C fully the efforts of t.he scientific community that has done so muc~ for our fisher/ over t.1e last ten years.

Sure, 'Ne question some of t.'leir decisions, sure, we question some of the pro?osals t.'lat t.'ley come out with, but we have to start somewhere. No-.J", Mr. Speaker, when we talk about. t..1.e scientific community and we talk about. local K-nowledge and we talk anot.:t the total input by fishermen and ot..'1ers, then we also i1ave to talk about. w!'.at. is actually happening in t.."'le fisher:..es now, I, for one, a.':l. verJ suspicl.O\;S of '""hat is :1.appening to our squid.

Information says :.nat:. :.'lere is squici in abundance, but I also t.'1ink ·..;e ;,ave to retr.e:':lCer t:.:'1.at. about t.en or •:,;,.;elve years ago t."1ere ·Has cap lin in al:undance.

Mnd •,.;e all know .,...ha1;. ;1appened. :.ast year :ne caplin fia:hely '.-'as cut of£ because it: 'Has :;:rovcn,eith.er because of overfishing or a prol..JJ.erc. of nature, t.:.'1e capJ.i:1 st.ocks just: ·.;rem: down to literally nil. ;.;e Knew, because of that, ..,..hat. t:>is current season - a blank all over ~1.is ?!"OVince. :1..--.c .J.ll of ..:.s •,.;orking our best to Co ':.:<<:: sar.e '::.::.:.ns ·><~i!:.:l ;;s;.;i·:' if it happens to that: - and then we hear the zember for Harbour Grace (Hr.1oungl talking about the TAC, then if those stocks are to increase - 3GG5

:~overrbe: 28, 1979 :::c - 2 >!?.. HOLLETT; and other specJ..es to feed en to grow. It is pretty basic 1 I think, to anybody and I t.i.ink. '"'e have to be looking at all those proble~s. :1r. Speaker 1 while we are on th.e fishery problem - I would prefer not even to mention it, but because it is Cirectly related I would like to state enphatically, r am saying nere now what ! honestly believe, but more important probably, the concern a large group of fisherrr~n, fish plant workers and deep-sea fishermen and owne:s of companies have brought up to me in the last mont..'1, certainly since last Summer.

I do not think there is one ?erson in my riding or in th.is Province who would wish us all ot..i.er than •..rell in relation to our oil exploration, Ne all realize what it can mean to our ?rovince. However, after watching th.e blow in t.i.e Gulf of Z.!exico last Surnmer a."ld then, it. periodically coming up on television, in t..'i.e papers - I '::.hink t.<ere ~ in excess of a million barrels of cruCe spewed out of t.~e well in veri shallow waters in a very warm climate before ~i.e best technolo~; in ':.his world today was .Wle t:o cap it.. I shudder to think ·.;hat ·.;auld ~appen if we have a large oil find.

I shudder to t..i.ink, Mr. Speaker, of what would happen if we have a sir:u.lar blow and especially if t..."lat is in February wit::h slob ice, Southeast ·..,..inds at :ifty or six-::y miles an hour for :wo or ~ree weeks, whic~ we ~ften have, wi~ the Labrador current running South down over t.i.e Grand Banks, I shudder to t::.ink, Mr.

Speaker, ':.i1at t::he real possibili t:.Y here is that we could have up ':o SO ,000 ;..::lantic Canadians out of '"'ork - ~'tat. is the reality cf 1.:::. ;: . ..nc. on t.'1at ~3.Sl.S, I certainly caution t.'1is government and e•.;erytociy else t:o go very slowly t:o :nake sure that ':.his ·.;ill not:: happen to our fisheries, 3ecause, as said by t.'1e hon. t.'1e :ctinister of Finance (::r. J.

Collins) a.r1d. o~'i.e::s, t.'le nu."T.ber of people wit:l1 a licence, 32,000 - or half t:hat: nw.£er, to Oe fac-::.ual, you knew, just in t..'1is Province t:hat number of fisl".ermer:, t..>e ::.ur..ber of onshore •..;orke.rs - I do not k:.ow ·..;hat ratio .l.S ·.:sed r.ow, 1.f .l.t. :::. S t:o 1 for t:he service inciust.ry in relation ':o t..'1.e fisheries, I .,.,.auld suspect. .l.':. is t.hat or ~nre - jus:: .l.n our Province alone, 1.: sc~~t..'1.ing 3656

Nove::-..ber ..;t:l, 1979 Tape ~lo. 1457 IB-1 :<R. tiOLLE.TT: :,tr. Speaker, : can go on and on and en. 3Y leave~ HR. STAGG: come over here. I would probably have to exchange with !:he me.'nber £or Stephenville (Hr. Stagg) if his inference is !?roper. :1.n.. STAGG: AN HON. :1E-1BER: over there. :-OR. HOLLETT: They do not want me ovar there. They sure as hell need somebody on fisheries sut, m. Speaker, I would certainly be remiss if I did not express my own feelings on this question of freezer trawlexs. I have already said it is not a novelty to this Province.

I believe ~hat there is a requirement 5or £reeze at sea capabilities £or a specific species 3r~ certain type fisheries once again. I do not believe that 'He need S15 million boats in this Province, ice reinforced, to possibly go ar.d do, as the ::'.ember fer Tor~gat Y!ounta.J.ns (;,!r. Warren) mentioned earlier, rape the Hamilton Banks, to rape the ;:crthern C8d ;:;tacks when it. is spawning. I think our conventional wet trawler_ as it is called, 'Ait.h free:::ing ca;;abilities, can do an O'ldet:;.uate job for the processors in t:his Province.

I do not see '"'here a company can afford to anortize it especi.J.lly WJ.th the pr-tces of construction as .::-eferred to by the hen. :1r. Jamieson or c!'J.e hen. me.'nbe::: .fer 3e1levue and -::;upported \::.:7 the hon. :1inister a£ Fisheries because the price is exorbitant in rel~tlon to amortization. I think ·,;e would !::e :r.uch better .o;erved esr:;ecially '.dth the energy crisis if '.:he type of boat that is designed, the wet !ish trawler is probably smaller in sl:z.e than ·..;hat ·,.;e are us inc; now, with gcod cat:::hing ca;;>abilit:ies .

Because •,;e ~.ave co :::eme..'!ll:::er~ even '::he conventional beat :tow L:; consu!ning somet:hing l.ike 15,JOO gallons of fuel per trip which dr_:ves ::he cost way !:Jeyond any scr::: o£ an economic reality. Sc wit!< -:he large :.ce reinforced .freezer -::::;:1wler I can visuali::e just what: -...-ould happ:;n. once aga.:_n the :abr:>dcr C::;ast :::auld l::e ·;oiC of any r:e;;al insiloP:: !:J.sher:;. The :-Jortr.eas:: coast :::auld be :;;.nd many ether sect: ions oi this ?rovincc. ;·,_nd 36S'7

~ove~£~ :s, 1979 ?ape ~Io. 1457 IB-2 :1:."'1.. HCLI.ETT: If chey are going to go ~ut and stay fer e~tended periods and =atch che fish before it comes within t~e sixty ~ile range or the hundred nil8 ::-ange of the near offshore or inshore fishermen the same thing will ;-,appen. :-'.r. Speaker, I think I have used up !nY t~~e. There are illany others :hinss I would like to speak to but am sure be£ore ~his House adjourns there will be ample opportunity. I would welcome hearing from members opposit::e, how they really feel about the fishery .

Th8.re is one thing to believe in l.t, !tr. speaker, . :wd there is one thing to •..tork far it. But there is t:he complete .::pposite I find in some members who just give it lip service. ?iow to :ne li;: service is not: adequat:e. In full support of every fisherman, every fishing ccmpany, everybody is in•Jolved directly and indirectly '-Jith the !isheries in this Province :::oday because, as indicat:ed by ::;cne statistics •,.;hich ::;:: always quest~on,the future in this ?::evince ~s the fishery, net in the total sense but I will say as =ar as 75 per cent l.t l.s t.he fishery in all aspects.

And we have to work :~.nd work hard, ·.-~e have co co-operate in what: is good for the f~shery and pron:o:::.2 it. And :: ::hi!!k ·.-~e should all reserve the right to questl.an or -:a debate whar., we .feel is wrong. Thank you, :·!r. Speaker. SC"'!E HCN. :C!E!·1BERS: Heu.r, hear! The hon. President of ~he council. :-~.

Speaker, I am going to get:: back t.O the resolution now that is before ::he House and just say a few ·..;crds \•lith respect to t::hc gcver:unent's r:osit:ion ::oncerrung ::.his !."Csclution ::md why the resolution is not in ~t:s ;::resent: form acceptable :.':l t:-,e ;cvernment. 'cie have l:a.d a very -;ccd debate here in t.he House .::r-"Jn all sides, both sides. There have teen many const.ruc::tio;e :.l-ungs :.hat. !-'.ave :;een sa:td lD ::.h.e ::curse of :.he debate, 7lany ':on.structive observations.

And I supfose d bystander list::ening to the debate .J.nd :>.ea:ri:1g the 'Nay the deba-::e has gone, might '"'onder ils to why anyone •..toulf!. vo::0: .J.gainst the resolution t:ecause '10 :nv0 :1ct:: rso.lly been addr8ss_:._ng 36:':5

Nove.'nber 28, 1979 Tape No. 1457 IB-3 :-!..1:1.. :>!ARSHALL: the resolution in the past t•..;o days. It bas been a ben