' Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, February 14, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 4

February 14, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 74 PETITIONS: NM - 1 MR. P.S. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Burnside. The prayer of this petition is that the Community of Burnside be incorporated under The Community Councils Act, 1972. Most of the communities in my district are incorporated under The Local Government Act and I believe if this one is incorporated it will only leave three communities that are not governed by a local government.

I am sure that the Minister of Municipal Affairs will take this petition and I trust he will act upon it with all the speed and power within his ministry. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be placed on the table of this House and referred to the Department to which it relates. HON. H.R.V. EARLE, MINISTER OF PUBL_Ifj:IORKS A.~D SERVICES: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition from the town councillors and residents of the Town of Bay L'Argent. Fortune Bay. The prayer of this petition is for a water and sewerage system.

In my District of Fortune Bay where there are some twenty-one settlements, there are only two towns which have the facilities of water and sewerage systems, namely the Town of Belleoram~ which is one of the oldest water systems in Newfoundland, secondly only to the larger centres such as St. John's, Corner Brook and the bigger settlements around the island. One of the newer incorporated towns namely Grand Le Pierre got water and sewerage about two years ago and incidentally I might say that that town had probably installed the most inexpensive water and sewerage system of any that has been put in.

When I hear of the hundreds of thousands of dollars which certain places ask fort for water and sewerage, I think that a community this size who did the installation for somewhat less than $100,000 should be congratulated. 211

February 14t 1973 Tape No. 74 NM - 2 MR. EARLE: In the case of Bay L'Argent, for which I present the petition today, it is a very prosperous, well-kept, tidy community where the people, most of whom go away to work either at deep sea fishing or to the mainland or on CNR boats, have exceptionally fine, clean, tidy homes, well looked after and well kept. Unfortunately that

section of my district, in fact ninety per cent of the District of Fortune Bay has not come under any of the special area arrangements of DREE. In fact there is only one town in my district, namely Garnish, that does come within such an area. Therefore the people of all Fortune Bay District have been deprived of any special privleges such as have gone to many other sections of the country through being part of the DREE arrangements, the DREE special areas. Bay L'Argent has proven its worth insofar as having had a town council for only a matter of about two years.

They have done exceptionally good work in the collection of garbage and cleaning up the place. They are paying their taxes well and they are living up to their assessments. I feel that if they are given what in this day and age is the expected 212

February 14, 1973 Tape 75 convenience of proper water and sewerage system that they will most certainly live up to their obligations as they have proven in the past with all their other amenities~ I therefore ask that this petition he laid on the table of the House and be sent co the department to which it relates. MR. SPF.AKER: Is the honourable the member for Bell Island speakin~ on this petition? PK - 1 HR. S.A. NEARY· Yes. It rives me great pleasure on hehalf of my colleagues on this side of the House, Mr.

Speaker, to support the petition presented by the honourahle member on hehalf of town councils and residents of Bay L 1 Ar_gent. I only hope.

Sir, that the m:foister will convince his leader that we do not have enough infrastructure in Newfoundland as yet nnd that the '-tinister of '.!-'unicipal Affairs will take action on thts petition, A suggestion, Sir, to the honourahle minister I understand that the Government of Canada have lent by the way of forgivable grants and loans $fl.It million to create jobs in Newfoundland, to fund special make-work programmes and perhaps some of this money - I do not know why the government is procrastinat:1ng on this, Si..r, when we have so much unemployment, but perhaps the minister may he ahle to convince his colleagues to funnel some of this money into Hay L'Argent to put in this badly needed water and sewerage system+ HON.

G. W. DAWE: (MINISTER OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTRIAL RELAT10J1S), Hr, Speaker, on behalf of the residents of Holyrood and Country Path, Holyrood, I beg leave of this House to present a petition, the prayer of which calls for the upgrading and pavinr, of that particular road. I have travelled this road many times, hoth summer and winter. In the summertime these residents have to put up with considerable dust, This time in the year the road condition is in a very deplorable state.It requires itpµ:rading~ paving and ditching is very, very necessary. '.!13

Fehruary 14, 1973 Tape 75 PK - 2 I would like to have this petition tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. HR. EARL W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, on hehalf of my colleagues on this side of the House I take much pleasure in supporting the petition presented by the honourable member. In supportin~ this petition.

Sir, I do not think it is necessary in this day and age for a community,such as the Community of Ray L'Argent nnd the community which the honourable member just referred to, to have to present petitions to this honourable Fouse asking for up}?radinp, and paving of roads and the installation of water and sewers~ Those two are vital to our way of life in Newfoundland if we are going to improve the conditions which we suffered from generations to generations. I can understand and sympathize with the honourahle member when he referred to the dusty roads.

God knows, Sir, in the Fogo District, fro1 Gander Bay,north and south,there is nothing hut a cloud of dust,as the hon. Minister for Communications and Transportation will recall. So, Sir, I hope that the good minister.in his good judgment,will now start a programme of paving and upgradin~ all of the gravel roads, especially in Fogo District,after which he can io hack to the honourable memher's district and do his. f!R. A. DUNPHY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the citizens of Gallants.

The prayer of the petition is the request for financial assistance to purchase a pickup truck for the Com.~unity of Gallants. Now the purpose of this truck is to get around in the event of fire. The pumping apparatus that they now have,this weights nearly 500 or 600 pounds, so it would be rather cumbersome to get this to a fire. So a truck for this purpose is necessary, if they are to take care of such an emergency. I wholeheartedly support this request. It is signed by every responsible citizen of the Community of Gallants. I would like to have this tabled and referred 214

February 14, 1973 Tape 76 JM - l to the department to which it relates. MR. F.R. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of the petition so ably presented by the member for St, George's for the Community of Gallants. This is a community which is in the heartland of the woodlands between Corner Brook and Stephenville and a firetruck for that area would be a tremendous asset for the community but it also would serve as a precautionary measure against the outbreak of fire which could lead to vast destruction of very valuable timber in that area. MR. P.S. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I rise in support of this rather somewhat unusal petition. The principle of the petition is good. On this side of the House we wholeheartedly support it. The fire protection for the Conmunity of Gallants is in this day and a~e a must. In the past our communities have found favour with requests to government to supply firetrucks and many of the communities around our orovince today have up-to-date firetrucks which can take care of almost any emergency in the case of fire.

However I cannot at this moment recall any community that has a pickup truck for the purpose of fire fighting with the exception. of course. of the forestry department. However if this is the need of the community then we certainly support it. I am sure there should not be any need for the petition to this House for such an insignificant thing because a fire truck, a pickup truck would possibly cost only $3,500 or something like that. But all in all, Mr. Speaker. we wholeheartedly support the prayer of this petition. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to speak in support of the petition as presented by the hon. member for St. George's on behalf of the residents of Gallants. I think it is time that possibly our government should take a very serious look at fire fighting equipment in rural 215

February 14, 1973 Tape 76 JM - 2 communities or outport communities in this province. In my district this winter the Community of Nain had the very unfortunate circumstance of having the government store burnt and literally destroying all the food supplies and materials in that community. After the fire started there was no possible way of controllin~ it and consequently I feel that we were very fortunate that we did not have to evacuate that community of 800 people because of the fact that there were large storages of fuel in the community.

It so happened that four fuel drums blew up and the houses clustered together, no snow cleared and with a storm of wind they just barely escaped losing the whole Community of Nain. There are a number of communities distributed throughout this province,not only on the Labrador Coast,where we have no planning and no provisions made for fire fi~hting.

I think that the government now, after having this situation and consequently costing our govern.~ent as well as the Govermnent of Ottawa a substantial sum of money to support that community by air lift over the winter, I feel that the time has come when we should call on, I do not know which department, if it is the Department of Justice which is responsible for fire fiP,hting in this province, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Municipal affairs. MR.

WOODWARD: Municipal affairs, call on the Minister of Municipal Affairs to start an investigation and look at the eQuipment that is now available and which in lots of communities there is none,and see what type of equipment that is needed for a community that has no roads,where you have to use maybe water buckets and in areas where there is no water supply. I have known of a number of communities throughout the Artie, in the Northwest Territories.that are equipped with snowmobiles and C0-2 fire extinguishers.

Maybe this is the approach that we should take but I feel there is a great need for something of that nature to be done. I wholeheartedly support the petition, Mr. Speaker. 216

?AR. CROSBIF: l'r. Spenh:;,r. 1 p:ive notice that T "-'ill on to-morrm-' asY leave of the Uour,e to introducC' n bill; ''P.n /;,ct To ~\,,1nend The Crown Corporations Local Taxntion Act.· ,,,_ffi. SPEAKER: Before we go to Orders of the nnv: Yester<lav the honourahle member for Hell Jr:;Lmd presented n resolution which I said I would take under advisement and rule on later. If it can he called a ruli_n_g, we tooP- ;i: lnok at the resolution anr1 we did strike out a certain clause in that resolution and :It is obvious on the flrder ParH.~r no,,• in thP form: in ·which we nccrr-ted :it.

ORDEnS OF Tiff, Dt'\Y~ "T. p :S .TH0!'-1S. Jfr. f!penlcer, I wouli! 1 if"e to direct a quest1nn to the "'finister of t'or£'-stry and /1.griculture. Pns the. rovc.rnnH:nt received th(;' Cook Penort on egg r,nrtetinr;? Tf not, in vicP of the chaotic conditions that exist in the noultrv imhrntrv. whC'n do the government expect to receive this report? HON. E.t'AYNARD _(t1inistcr of For~strv and l1Fricu1 ture)_~: I attempted to nnsver the nuestion a couple of davs ago hut T was unable to do so9 I nadc a release nt thnt time which ndenuatelv answers the hon0ural-le gentlennn!s question. HR.

THOMS· /. supplementary nuestion. l,ir. Spenl:er. Could T have n copy of that release? FR. V/IY.t-'!AFD: Certainly, }{B.__.JS1J1.!D_S,: If they are as ineffective there as thev nomallv are .•. r~_. _ _f:!'I,f:!'.T! · The honouraPle rncriher for Dell Island. !-JR. S.A.NF:.AFY~ 11r. Speaker, I i:muld lil,e to d::l'.rect a ouestion that is r.iost urgent, to the Minister of l--'ines and Fnerp.,y. Would. the minister indicate to the House if he or the p:overnment have any knowleclpe of the Buchans mine phasinp down in the next five years. as has heen reported publicly recently?

If so, would he tell the House what information he has or the governrient have on this tnattBr? 217

February 14, 1973, Tape 77, Pare 2 -- arb It is true or is it false? HON. L.D._Bft:RRY(~lj_nister of J!incs"and Encr_F.y): On such a serious matter. vr. Speah;r, I would like to have all mv facts cle;,r 1:-efore answerinp:, so I take the matter on notice. To <late J nm not aware of anythinf. AN _HON~ }lf'.HEFR • Can we expect a release or state!7lent on that? Yes. definitely. lffi. NEARY, -------·- Hr. Speaker, I thrml·. the honourable minister and I trust that he will give us an answer at the earliest date possible.

Now, Sir, I would lii<e to direct a question to the f--linister of Labour or }fanpower and Industrinl Relations or whntever he ;is c:Rlle<l now. I would like to ask the minister if he haR received yet the llattcnhauer Roynl Commission Report on health and safety hazards at the Erco Phosphorous Plant <1t Long Hnrhour? If not, would th~ minister indicate when he expects to receive this renort. 'TR. DA11E: It has been received and it iws heen indicated throuj.'!f. the news media that it would be in our hands on Fenruary 15. 1 have not received anything officinl on it. ~m. ROBERTS,_ A supplementary ouestion. Hr.

Sncol·cr. Fill the rnj nister undertake to mah>. puhlic the report the moment it is received as the Premier has indicated all i:mch reports wl,ll he Dade nuhli.c? AJI HON. HEl<JlER: (Inaudible) T do not Fnou if you can rend it or not. That is your nrohlelf!. !'!:.~.A!ff:.: We will have a look at it first before it is made public. MJ':...·~ ROBERTS: Would the minister care to indlcate how long it Flirht tate hiri to have a look at it?

The honourable f!entleman, the }finiBtf'r of Funicipal Affairs,has been lookinp at ;1 roynl commission report for a mnn'rer of weeks now, will it take the honourn.ble gentleman as long? ;A!J HON. HEYBEP: Just as soon as he gets it from the printers •.• !·T. ROBEPTS :- .Tust os soon as the honournhle ventleman pets it from the printers. Would the }'inister of, uhn tever he is, I guess he is still 218

Fef'ruary 14, ir173, Tape 77, T'af!e 1 - npfl lepally the ffinister of Labour, t1r. Spenker. "!\o. I ~uess f,e is Finister 0f Fannower as the Act hns l-cen proclair.iecl. \•!ould he undcrtn}c to p::ivP ns sone indication of l~ow long it mfrht taVe for hi:r to read it. There is considenfrle rub lie interest in the tirrcliness of this report, '-1r. Spcai·cr, that :ts why vc arc press inf the point. I will not rive you n tir:ie limit rip.ht now, but I will take it under advisement and sec :if ue cannot calculnte one for you. ~'R. Tnm1s • --------~- :Mr.

Speaker, I would lil-e to direct n ouestion to the r~inistcr of Forestry and Apriculture. Have the povernment offered to date nny ,1.ssi stancf' to the fnrmers on the L'est roast and t th1nk i.n pnrticular of thf' Cormaci' 4.rea,who £'}:J"1eriencf'ff n cron fnilure :in J 0 72? l-1R. l1AYVAPn: Thf' government have ht"'en studyj_np thf' cron failures ~---~~----,>- on thP l!r:st roast, Yr. ~1w·nl:er, and He ,-71J1 1°;:we statf'Tflents in duP course on the nntter. PR ••. FOBFPTS ·- 11r.

Sneaker. in view of the renrcscntntions whicfl 1 hnve recPived frotn the Pf>ople of Comack, inrl:icatinf. that they uere told ueeJ'.s nr-o that there i:ould be a statC'rnent in due course, could the JTiinister indicate how due is due course? We are headinr for another crop fnilure if there are no crops 11nt in the ground this year. HR. MAYNARD: I am sure, Yr. Spenker, we will do everythinp possit>le to alleviate any situations that mav exist on thf' West Coast that mny harm the fnrmers. ~'R. H.H.C.cILLETT· l'r.

Speaker, I have a question which T. would lil:e to direct to the Minister of Transportation and Cormmnications. This is concerning the cause.way at Twillinr;ate nnd I am very flmdous to know whether or not the r:overnment have set a completion date and contracted for that completion date of the causeway? Hhen I say 219

February 14, 1973, Tape 77, Page 4 -- apb completion, I mean completed- paved and ready for use. HON. T.G.JARRELL 0,1inister of Transportation and C'mr.munications)_: ~1r. Speaker, I would like to inform the honourable r,entleman that I am happy to report,as far as my knm,1led~e at this tine, that the causeway will be completed this summer or perhans a little 1nter this year. 220

February 14, 1973 Tape 78 IR-! Is that sufficient, Sir? Thank vou very much, Hr. Speaker. MR. M. WOODWARD: ?,tr, Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Min:i.ster of Transportation and Communications. I would like to ask the minister if he han approached or his government has apnroach­ ed the government in Ottawa or have anv negotiations taken place concern­ in~ the trans-Labrador Highi.,av?

If not, are they proposing to approach the government for assistance to build this particular highway that was promised or if the nrovinical government will take it on themselves to construct this highwnv and when do they plan on starting such a highway? HON. DR. T. FARRELL: In answer to the hon. member from Labradour North, this is a very vast study ,as he well or in the process of some preliminary 1-nquirieA of this town. When full information is available I will be dellghted to extend any information that I have to the hon. member. Thank you very :rr,uch. HON. EDWARD J?O:AERTS: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. gentleman seem to be saving thatrnerhnps ve could try to pin him down on this point) ,muld he confirm that he has said that no presentations have been made hy the Government of Newfoundland to the GJvernment of Canada with reBpect to th:l s matter at thi$ time? HON. DR. T. FARP.ELL: That is correct, Sir, at this t:lme but some prelir.dnary investigations have been done in some other areas unto the moment and it will he continuing. CAPT .E. H. WINSOR: Mav I direct a question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries?

Can he inform us whether the government paid any reimbursement to fishermen who suffered gear loss due to storm damage 't>•hich took place late last fall? HON. ROY CHEESENAN: (MINISTER O'F FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, in answer: i.f the hon. member for Fogo is reforring to the particular storm damage caused in early December~this matter is under investigation bv both the federal and provincial departments. The information, I believe, is complete at this point or very nearly complete and it remains now to determine the course of action from there on but if the investigation is not entirely complete 221

February 14, 1973 Tave 78 IB-2 it is very close to it. MR. E. WINSOR: Did I understand the minifiter to say that there were neFotiations between the federal department and the provincial? ~- ROY CHEESEMA..~: I am sorry, would you repeat that? MR. E. WINSOR: Did you say that there were negotiations going between the federal and the provincial for reimbursement of the gear? HR. ROY CHEESEMAN: What I said, Hr. Speaker, was that the investigation carried out on the storm dnmage was being conducted by both the federal and provincial in agreement prior to. MR. W.

ROWE: A question to the 1-finister without Portfolio or the gentleman who will shortly become the l"'inister nf N1.nes and Energy if this bill passes the House. It is a general questJon, Sir, hut I think a topical one. Would the minister indicate to the House what stage ne~otiations with BRINCO or any other parties have reached in respect of possible development of the Lower Churchill and more particularily what fonn is any such ne~otiations taking? Is the minister negotintioning with the heads nf BRJNCO hinself or are there teams of officnls on hoth sides or are there say letter~ back and forth?

Is that the only stage they have reached. S econdl y the content of any such negotiations, Mr. Speaker, have positions been firmed up on both sides in the matter as yet? HON. LEO n. BARRY: (MINISTER OF HINES AND ENERGY): There have been nreliminary discussions with BRINCO by cormni.ttee of cabinet. There will be a renort given to the House of Assembly when the Rtage is reached where it is in the interest of the province to make such report as to the content of negotiations. I do not think it would be in the interest of the province to reveal the content of negotiations at this time. MR II.

ROWE: If the minister does not consider it an unfair question, which he mav well, could he indicate to the House and the public as to whether development of the lower churchill is likely to start in this calandar year? I mean, does he have enough information at the ~resent time to give that type of information to the House? ~22

February 14,1973. Tape 78 IB - J MR. L. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, again it would I think merely cause unnecessary confusion if we were to speculate. This is a hithly technical area involving much study and at this time it will be merely speculation to try and pin down the date when the project will get under way. You can be sure that our government is interested in seeing the development of this resource as soon as possible provided, of course, that we get the maximum return to the province. Until that point is reached our government

February 14, 1973 Mr. Barry~ Tape no. 79 Pagel - MRW feel that we will be getting the maximum return to the province, I cannot tell you the commencement date. MR. W.N.ROWE; I thank the honourable minister, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the (Acting) Premier.

Would the (Acting) Premier indicate to the House what transpired at yesterday's meeting with the Fish, Food and Allied Workers' respresentative delegation from Bonavista, who are on strike in that town; and if the government plan now to become more actively involved in this strike in Bonavista that is now eight months old? HON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, there was a very, I thought, friendly meeting with a group of representatives of the plant workers from Bonavista, lead by Mr. Paul and Mr.

Richard Cashin, when they reviewed the status of the stalemate at this time and at the conclusion of which the view was expressed by the parties in attendance that any statement at this time would be most premature and more than that would be undesirable from the point of view of those in attendance. I agree to their request that this would be the extent of any statement emanating at this time. They did not go m,;ay with any feeling other than (at least they told me) being satisfied with the meeting~ MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, is the minister aware that in a letter presented to the Premier and circulated to members of the House (I have a copy) that Mr. Paull to whom the minister referred, said therefore in one paragraph, "in our mind the government cannot remain indifferent to this situation and has at its disposal, ways and means of helping to resolve this situation?" MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, what I want to ask the minister or the Premier is what is the next step? Are the delegation gone back home to be forgotten or do the government intend to do anything about this strike? What is the next step, Mr.

Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: I think the honourable member's question is out of order. He is asking what the government intend to do and I think that question is not in order. 224

February 14t 1973 Tape no~ 79 Page 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my friend from Gander. The mailman just brought around this charming brochure with a picture of the honourable gentleman. (He sits their smiling). It is quite handesome. There does not seem to be a publisher's name on this. There may be some interesting legal ramifications there. Has it been published by the honourable gentleman's department? AN HON. MEMBER: It says, Robinson-Blackmore on the top. _MR. ROBERTS: That is the printer. That is the p-r-i-n-t-e-r. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: No, it is not~ That is the imperative. Would the honourable gentleman tell us, Mr. Speaker, if this has been published or if it is published by the Confederation of Municipalities? It does not say anything on it. I just want to know. AN HON. MEMBER: Float charts. MR. ROBERTS: The float chart looks like all the float charts, all it does not have are the brown spots. Would the honourable gentleman tell me? MR. COLLINS: I will take it under advisement. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, in other words the honourable gentleman does not know whether his department published this or not.

Hy God! of all the stupid things ever said. Was this published by the honourable gentleman's department or not, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the minister either can or cannot answer the question as he wishes, What he says is that he does not know. MR. MARSHALL: Point of order, Mr. Speakert this is an example: ~ndar the rules of this House the minister may refuse to answer questions without giving reasons. This side being sympathetic to the opposition,does give reasons most times.

The honourable minister has said that he has taken the matter under advisement and this is another example of the hon. Leader 225

February 14, 1973 Tape no. 79 Page 3 Mr. Marshall. of the Opposition abusing the question period. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may - MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is either blind or he refuses to see it because if he looks at the front of this he can see that it is published by the Federation of Municipalities. MR. ROBERTS: If I make speak to the point of order$ Sir, it being Valentine's Day, being filled with the milk of human kindness - MR. COLLINS: That is your trouble. MR.

ROBERTS: and looking eagerly for the part where it says, published by the - I may add that if it is published by the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities perhaps, Mr. Speaker, could tell us why it is being distributed in this House? 226

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 80 NM - l !-ffi. ROBERTS: Normally are the pages in the pay of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, where does it say? Ai~ HON. MEMBER: In the first sentence of the minister's remarks. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not be wasting Private Members' Day like this. MR. ROBERTS: Is this Private Members' Day, Mr. Speaker? It is, is it? My motion is coming on. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Yes I have heard of it. Has the honourable member ever heard of Gander? I was speaking to a Point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I think I made the point. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, could I direct another question to the honourable the Acting Premier? I would like to ask the Acting Premier if the government yet have answered a letter from United Steel Workers of America in Buchans.dated February 8, concerning a request to have the government intervene to have somebody from the American Mining and Refining and Smelting Company on the spot in Buchans during the current negotiations between the company and the union who can make on the spot decisions? Has the government taken any action on that request yet? fffi. HICKMAN: It was not addressed to me. MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, I gave an undertaking yesterday that today hopefully we would be able to make a statement with regard to the proposed downtown complex in St. John's and I have that statement here now. It is a short one but it is long enough. The St. John's City Council is an autonomous body, duly electHJ and functions under The City of St. John's Act. With regard to the proposed complex downtown, the decision whether this goes ahead or not or whether a public hearing should be held falls within the jurisdiction of that council. There is no evidence that council is contravening the act.

In view of this, government cannot and should not intervene~ It is not government policy to intervene where legislation gives council 227

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 80 !;')! - 2 MR. COLLINS: the authority to act. MR. ROBERTS: Did the honourable gentleman send a copy of that to Gander? MR. COLLINS: That is a different story. The honourable Leader of the Opposition cannot have his cake and eat it too. MR. WM.

ROWE: Before Ordet:Sof the Day are called, I would like to direct a question to the Acting Premier or Deputy Premier, in his capacity as Minister of Justice, and I refer to a piece of lily white journalism, as against the yellow journalism we have heard talked about in this House in the past debate, "The Newfoundland Herald" of February 7, 1973, "Cabinet minister phones being tapped by the RCMP,11 I am sure the minister would welcome an opportunity to clarify that sitution as to whether his department is giving any orders in that regard or whether he has heard of the federal government giving any orders in that regard, or whether he considers it a bunch of hogwash or what, Mr.

Speaker? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to answer the question the way the honourable member for White Bay South, asked, w~uld be, you know, have you stopped beating your wife? No, she is still beating me, with a great deal of success. So that there can be no mistake about this, never in the Province of Newfoundland since the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Force came to this province and assumed jurisdiction in certain areas has any telephone wire or any other wire ever been tapped by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Indeed, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as a force,as of today, nowhere in Canada has ever tapped any wire of anyone, even people that have been under investigation. So let me assure the honourable member for White Bay South that,number (1),no cabinet ministers' telephone wires, no one else's telephone wires 1 no one's have ever been tapped by the police in this province. The rest of the question does not apply. 228

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 80 NM - 3 MR. WM. ROWE: Just a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, it is an interesting point, would the minister as a minister of the province, Mr. Justice of the ?rovince, happen to know whether he would be advised if this were ordered to be done under some federal statute other than the criminal code? 229

February 14, 1973 Tape 81 PK - l MR. HICKMAN: I do not know. I cannot speak for the Securities Act nor the Narcotics. If it were under the Cri..1;dnal Code my understanding is that I would. I also understand that there are two provinces in Canada that by provincial legislation,under their Telephone Acts, prohibit iL Honourahle members will recall that the Trudeau Administration two or three years a~o,through the Minister of Justice, the then Minister of Justice 1 p:ave notice of his intention to introduce a bi.11 to amend the Criminal Code to permit wire-tapping with certain safeguards.

This bill did not come on the Order Paper at that time. There is an indication that it is now forthcoming. But before this is done,I am told that there will he consultation with the provinces. Indeed one province in Canada already, through its Attorney General,has laid down certain rules under their Telephone Act which would, and I helieve some municipal police are following it, in making application convincing the Attorney General of that province that it is essential to the investigation of an indictable offense. But that is a problem far removed from Newfoundland.

I would not anticipate that it will not occur here and I cannot speak for what the proposed amendments will be to the Criminal Code. MR. W. ROWE: Would the minister confirm that his early remarks in respect to the R.C.H.P. also apply to the Newfoundland Constabularly. That is that never in the history of the department. HR. HICKMAN: I cannot say. I cannot go hack all the way through the history of the Newfoundland Constabularly. All I can say is, since I have been in the portfolio,which is five years all told. I have never heard of the Newfoundland Cons tabularly ever doing this,.

At least, if they need my approval they have never asked for it and if they did ask for it I would not give it. MR. ROBERTS: Which raises a further point - would they require the minister's approval as a matter of - J'-fll.. HifPfAN: Our Telephone Act is silent on it. I would think thatit is a matter of ordinary proof, 1 ?+fr. Speaker, they would come and ask. -230

February 14, 1973 Tape 81 PK - 2 'MR. _R_QBFRTS: Could the minister undertake, Mr. Speaker, to inquire of the constabularly whether they have? !i!{~__..13.0RE~TS: I mean it is an interestin~ point. MR._HI~_K!-t~N: It is an interesting point and I thank the honourahle member for White Bay South for raising it. I do not want people to be under any misapprehension. ORDERS OF THF DAY MR. SPEAKER: Hot ion No. 20. :HR. RO.J3ERTS: The motion which Your Fonour has guessed so admirahly stands in my name so I guess I will have to take the first hit at it. 1t is a fairly straightforward motion, ~fr.

Speaker, while 1 hope that members on both sides will dehate it and dehate it thoroughly and at length. I do not think. indeed I have very much hope that it is a sort of subject that Hill not arouse partisan comment. I do not think this is a sort of motion on which one's stand is influenced or determined by the political party to which one helonr,s. There are other motions standing on the Order Paper. It may be that the one standing in the name of my colleague and friend from Bell Island may divide the llouse on more partisan lines. nut the one which stands in my name at present ,I suhmit and I hope. rlr.

Speaker, it will be treated hy this !-louse in an unpartisan way. Certainly that is the spirit in which I proposed the motion, it is the spirit in which t advance it,unless gentlemen on the other side sort of debnte with me as they sometimes do, is the r,;ay in which I shall attempt to present the motion now. I.et me say at the out set, Mr. Speaker, that I have met with the dentists or with a group of dentists of the province. I will 'not say they were representing the Dental Association as such t'ut I did meet before I put the motion on the Order Paper.

I did meet with a cross-section of the dentists who gave me their views. They did tell me then that they had hoped t0 or indeed are preparing a brief which will

February 14, 1973 Tape 82 JM - l come to us as members of the House a brief would set forth in some detail the position of the Dental Association with respect to this question, a brief based on the discussions and the conclusions which were reached at the meeting held in Gander last week, a meeting at which I believe almost all of the dentists in Newfoundland were present. They tell me that they hope to have this brief in the hands of the House, Mr. Speaker, by Thursday and they asked if I would be prepared to stand off the resolution until the brief had come in.

I said that I thought that was an entirely reasonable request and that while I was not prepared for my part to give up the Private Members 1 Day, we get one afternoon a week, that I was quite willing and I am sure my colleagues on this side of the House were equally willing to agree if the government so wished to shift Private Members' Day and we would debate the motion for example on Friday instead of today because with the brief coming in tomorrow it would give us tomorrow evening and Friday morninR to look at it and to see what points the dentists had to make. Fortunately or unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker~ that is not the case. I was told second hand that my friend, the Minister of Health, has indicated that he would just as soon the resolution go ahead today. I assume that is speaking for the government and I may say that I have not had a conversation with my friend on it. The report comes to me second or third hand and if it is incorrect perhaps the hon. gentleman could correct me on it. I regret that we will not have the benefit of this brief however;apparently we are not to. It may or may not make a difference. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the facts on which I have based the resolution itself were set forth in the

preamble, in the

whereas clauses. I think they speak for themselves. It may interest hon. members though to have some of the figures, some of the statements I make in the

whereas clauses while they are statements of fact they are not quantifiable they are not 232

February 14, 1973 Tape 82 JM - 2 readily reduced to statistical fonn but certainly the first

whereas clause~ "WHEREASthe Province of Newfoundland and Labrador has fewer dentists per capita than does any Province of Canada," that is a fact that is easily - May I congratulate Your Honour. It is the first time Your Honour has occupied the Chair. AN HON. MEMBER: No, no. MR. ROBERTS: Is it not? The first time he has occupied it since he became Deputy Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: No, he was in there late yesterday. MR. ROBERTS: Well. the first time I have seen him in the Chair then. We will put it that way, Welcome aboard, Sir.

The latest figures which I have been able to obtain across Canada are as of January 1, 1972, fourteen months old. They were ohtained from the Canadian Dental Association and they show that at that time Canada had 7,664 dentists. If one divided that into the population of Canada as obtained from Statistics Canada and although the press are not officially present I may add if they are interested that I do have copies made of this for any honourable gentlemen who wish them, to stay up tonight and study them~ they are welcome to them. But that gave a per capita population of 2,835 people for every dentist in Canada.

The province with the best ratio, the province with the most dentists per population was British Columbia which had 1,044 dentists and that gave them a ratio of one to 2.133. Ontario which usually leads in these things 1 but Ontario is next. 3,241 dentists giving them 2,400 people to every dentist. Alberta,with 616 dentists, Mr. Speaker. at a ratio of one to 2,669 and Manitoha,with 315 dentists,had one to 3,140~ Nova Scotia,with 238 dentists,had one to every 3,332. The province with the worst ratio, it ~oes without saying, was Newfoundland. At that stage we had one dentist to every 8,656 people.

The matter has improved somewhat since 1972 and the fi~ures which I have been given by the Registrar of the Newfoundland Dental Board ') ') 3· ...,..,

February 14, 1973 Tape 82 JM - 3 show that as of today there are sixty-eight dentists in practice in this province and that gives us about one dentist per every 7,800 people. The Canadian average, interestingly enough, has also improved. It is now about 2,800 people per dentist. So, Mr. Speaker, I think those are fairly si~nificant figures. They show quite clearly that the total amount of dental services available to our people from dentists cannot be as great as available in any other Province of Canada. Our dentists work hard and they work very well but I think if any hon. member wishes to make a simple test he can find out for himself how Rreat is the 234

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 83 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: need for more dental services in this province. All he has to do, Mr. Speaker, is leave the chamber, take the yellow pages of the St. John's telephone directory, pick up the telephone and start calling the offices of the various dentists in practice either here or across this province. Now let me say, if he says he has an emergency, I have no doubt he will be taken care of immediately, in a matter of hours at most. Mr.

Speaker, I submit that if any honourable member chooses to call around to the dentists and ask for a regular routine appointment for prophylactic work or for a check up or for any restorative work, he will have to wait two to three months at minimum, unless he knows the dentist. Obviously, and there is nothing wrong with that, a dentist may accommodate his friends, He may have a spare appointment coming up but the general rule is that a person will wait two to three months at least in St. John's, outside St, John's there are a number of dentists but in most of Newfoundland there are no dentists at all.

I do not know where they now are. '!he Minister of Health perhaps could tell us and I hope he will speak in the debate and perhaps he could deal with this. There are dentists in Conception Bay, one in Torbay, Placentia got one now, Gander, Clarenville, Bell Island, Crand Falls, Is the gentleman still up in Carrnanville? I mentioned the north side of the bay, Lumsden. Dr. Manning is still there in Lurnsden~is he? Grand Falls, Lewisporte, Dr. Porter in Lewisporte, Springdale; Sop's Arm, Dr. Pendleton. He also was in Deer Lake, Comer Brook; Port au Basques,got one now, Dr. Camp: Baie Verte has a commuting dentist.

St. Anthony, Stephenville, Goose Bay, Happy Valley and Labrador West,I assume Churchill is served by ITA dentists on a commuting basis. Twillingate also,at the hospital there, but the point is, even in those areas, dental care is hard to come by but in 235

February 1,, 1973 Tape No. 83 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: large areas of our province, Mr. Speaker, dentists are just unavailable, because even that long list of communities that we have just arrived at here in the Chamber, Sir, even that long list of communities leaves out far more people, far more of our people in Newfoundland than it includes. Even within the area where there are dentists I would imagine my two to three month figure is as accurate in Harbour Grace,with Dr. Goodwin,as it would be here in St. John's with any of the dentists here. I think that leads, Mr.

Speaker, inevitably to the conclusion that we need in Newfoundland,auxiliary services, auxiliary dentists, auxiliary personnel. It is an old subject. The literature on it is vast. The proposals are numerous. I think the one thing on which there is agreement is that there ia no com,.-non ~greement. There is a dentist in Marystown as well,is there not, or Burin, Dr. Ramos is down on that part of the peninsula. There were all sorts of proposals over the years, Mr. Speaker. There was a category called dental-assistants, people who have a degree of training work under the direct supervision of dentists.

These people in my understanding do restorative work as well as making dentures and that sort of work. They do work which a dentist would do, There is the category used in the armed forces of so called dental technologists, I believe they are called. Then there is the New Zealand system and the present Minister of Health (and l think each of his predecessors have stumbled on thi~) is taken by it and hopes to make it work. I always felt that if one ever wanted a chance to go to New Zealand, it is a great opportunity to do so. New Zealand has a very good - ~ON~ER: Inaudible, MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, but not as attractive~ Saskatchewan in February is just out of the question. It is out of the question most of the year. 236

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 83 NM - 3 ;m. ROBERTS: They have a hill, do they not have a hill in Regina? My colleague was out and opened a hill one day. ~- WM. ROWE: Tt was about one hundred feet high. MR. ROBERTS: It was about one hundred feet high but they have a hill. They made it. It is a man-made one. They made a hill. God, Mr. Speaker, if we could only export some of the hills we have. MR. WM. ROWE: They made a molehill out of a mountain~ MR. ROBERTS:

Whereas around here we make mountains out of molehills. The honourable gentleman on the other side knows, he is paid to make mountains out of molehills, Pc~ HON. HEMBERt Inaudible. ~RQ!.ERTS: I snid the honourable gentleman is over-paid. I know he is over-paid even though he is not getting anything for the work he is doing. MR. PE_CKFORD: Now go baclt to your story. !!,R. ROBERTS: Well if the honourable gentleman is getting paid, we will have some chatter about that too. Then I stand by my statement, he is being paid nothing and he is over-paid. It is simple.

Well I will take a further bite out of the honourable gentleman frore - AN HON. MEMBER: Get our teeth into this, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: I already used that analogy, Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman from Venezuela via Cambridge will have to come to terms with that. Was the honourable gentleman really in Venezuela by the way? I only know what I read in 11Tue Evening Telegram." AN HON. MEMBER:It was not on public expense. MR. ROBERTS: I am not saying it was on public expense. I envy him having the private means to go to Venezuela. I envy him, I really do, Maracaibo, Caracas. MR. WM.

ROWE: What are the dentists like down there? MR. -RO~ Tell us about the dentists in Venezuela~ ~T]'.,ENHE.,!.M,_ER: Mr. Speaker, I think the - 2 3 '7

February 14, 1973 Tape no. 84 Page l - MRW MR. ROBERTS: Yes, what about Liechtenstein? AN HON, ME!!llER: (Inaudible), MR, ROBERTS: I can believe that but I never have been. I wish the honourable gentleman would tell us about Liechtenstein. He keeps dragging this one in, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: I am going again this year. MR. ROBERTS: I do hope he does. I do hope, Mr. Speaker, he tells us about it. If anybody has anything improper or done anything improper I hope that the honourable gentleman will see that they are brought before the proper courts-and so forth. _MR. CROSBIE: Not at all. MR. ROBERTS: No!

I believe not at all. The Bank of Montreal have slithered off. The Royal Trust have slithered off. We will watch the honourable gentleman on his white horse. MR. CROSBIE: Sir John! MR. ROBERTS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do not blabber on as my hon. friend from St. John's West. I would like to get on with it, Mr. Speaker, if the honourable gentleman could control himself. I realize that it is a difficult job for him. AN HON. MEMBER: How ironic! MR. ROBERTS: How ironic? There is nothing ironic about the honourable gentleman not being able to control himself. He has never been able to control himself nor others. Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying, before we went by way of Valdez on a bit of a cruise, the need for dental assistants I think is admitted. It has been widely canvassed in the profession for a number of years. The one thing which has not emerged is any consensus at all as to what sort of assistants they are, who trains them, what categories there are, who governs them and who runs them. The dentists will tell you that they 238

February 14, 1973 Tape no. 84 Page 2 Mr. Roberts. should work as assistants to the dentists. There are categories all the way from - is it dentitions? - is there a category called dentitions 7 girls - There are any number of categories. There are some AN HON. MEMBER: Dental hygienists. MR. ROBERTS: That is the one - hygienists. There are some of them in Newfoundland. There is one in Corner Brook 1 I believe. TI1ere is a young lady who works up in the Squires Building~ The dentists will say - I am sorry. _MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: As the honourable gentleman I am sure will understand, my interest in that is only academic at this stage in time. It is all behind me, Sir. I only wish the honourable gentlemen were all behind me. Mr. Speaker, I think it is obvious that the need for dental assistants is there. I think it is equally obvious that there is no consensus in the profession as to what type of dental assistants there should be.

There is, however, one great dividing line that I have seen in the discussions of what sort of a system should be engaged to enable dentists to do more work; the dividing line is whether or not they work under the direct supervision of a dentist. I think that is one of the important points which this resolution raises. The denturists or that category of dental technologists called denturists, do not wish and maintain they do not need to work under the direct supervision of a dentist. The dental profession 1 the association, I think will take issue with that.

My resolution says, uI do not think the denturists need to work under the direct supervision of a dentist." I find it significant that in five provinces of Canada, indeed the five provinces with the best ratio ') ,, 9 ,..,

February 14, 1973 Tape no. 84 Page 3 Mr. Roberts of dentists to population, British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and latterly Nova Scotia, denturists are allowed to practice. I am not clear on Ontario because they have redrafted the bill a number of times on the floor of the House. In Ontario, I am not sure of the category in Ontario. I believe they are or will be allowed to practice on their own. I believe in British Columbia, Alberta and Manitoba they are allowed to practice on their own. In Nova Scotia, I believe, they are to be allowed to practice on their own.

I think this is one of the important dividing lines in the various types of assistant dentists or dental assistants that have evolved. This resolution puts it clearly that denturists should be allowed to practice on their own. That does not mean, Mr. Speaker, that they should be allowed to practice either without supervision or without having attained certain standards. The resolution would require the government to set standards. The resolution would also require the government to put in the legislation provisions for governing the profession, the trade, the occupation or whatever one wants to call it.

Let me deal first with the standards. It will be a difficult business, Mr. Speaker. I do not envy the Minister of Health the job of trying to arrive at a definition of what is a denturist or what is the training level they attain or what is the standard they must maintain in practice. It will be difficult. It may be impossible to get agreements between all concerned. 1 understand that they are now going through that exercise in Nova Scotia. I understand that they have most emphatically not come to an agreement. The dentists are at loggerheads with the denturists and the government are in between~ Mr.

Speaker, the mere fact that it is difficult should not either prevent one from trying or prevent one from succeeding. There are in Newfoundland any number of professional groups established by law. 240

February 14, 1973 Mr~ Roberts. Tape no. 84 Page 4 They range all the way from the beauticians to the more traditional professional groups of architects, dentists, doctors, going right back to the original group, the lawyers. I believe the Law Society Act is about 1842, if my learned friends would tell me - about 1842. AN HON. MEMBER: The second oldest profession. MR. ROBERTS: It is the secon<l oldest profession. AN HON. MEMBER: What is the oldest profession? AN HON. MEMBER: I do not know, I never did find out what the oldest one was. MR. ROBERTS: We better have a select committee on what is the oldest profession.

We should put that to a vote, Mr. Speaker, because the non-learned members say that the second, oldest profession has the same standard as the oldest profession. This may cross party lines, Mr. Speaker~ Anyi,rnyi Hr. Speaker, standards can be seL All that the resolution would require is that they do be set. That would be the essential way of the public interest being protected. The public would know that if they went to a person, calling hiwself a denturist or a dental technologist, (the dentists do not like the phrase denturists.

They think it should be a dental technologist) - a member of the public going into the office of a denturist, call him what you may, would know that that person had reached certain standards and that he had attained certain qualifications. The board to supervise it, I suggest, would be appointed by the government under legislation, again not a new idea. The new Medical Act will require this. I understand that negotiations are coming on very well. It will require lay representation, a new feature in this province. It should have been done years ago.

I would like to see it done here~ It would allow the dentists to be represented, the denturists and a medical doctor. I suggest in the resolution, Mr. Speaker, no number but such a board would be five, seven or nine people. 241

February 14, 1973 Tape no. 84 Page 5 Mr. Roberts. They would have the responsibility for licencing and for discipline. I think that these two facts would give us reasonable protection. The fact that these would be governing bodies, at least as good as those governing any other profession in the province, I think would give some reassuarance to people. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think the denturists have made a reasonable case. I do not agree with their letter. They have sent a letter around to all members of the House of Assembly. It is a copy of a letter addressed to the hon. Minister of Health, dated February 12.

I do not agree with every thing in it by any means. I do think that the request that the practice of denturists be legalized in Newfoundland is a reasonable one. I think it will provide us with an improved service for our people. I think that service can be provided under adequate and sufficient safeguards for the health of our people. I do hope that the government will make it possible for this to go ahead. I am interested in it mainly because it would provide more dental service to our people.

Even if we do succeed in getting a category of dental assistants along the New Zealand or Saskatchewan line , that still will not meet the need. It cannot meet the need. I was always told by my officials, when I was Minister of Health and I have every reason to think that my successor in that portfolio received the same advice, that the dental problems in Newfoundland are one of the great public health problems that we face today.

The fact that most of our people have not had access to adequate dental services - by that I do not mean getting teeth pulled, because you can always get a tooth pulled - I mean the regular checkups, the prophylactic dentistry which the dental professionals will tell you is essential to good dental health. I agree completely and 242

Fehruary 14, 1973 Tape 85 PK - 1 I am delighted that my friend the honourahle gentleman has carried on the policy instituted by the government of which ! was :part while I was the Minister of Pealth. Well I hope they can improve it. It needs improvement. It certainly has not be.en noticeably successful during my tenure.. I hope it is more successfuL Fluortdation is essential as well. Indeed I would like to see the )?overnment order fluoridation. Order it. I realize it is a contentious issue.. It is another sub_iect. But my own personal wish would be to nrder it.

The government of which I was apart did not take that view. We took a different position. But, Hr. Speaker, the lack of dental care does extract a high prJ ce, Those of us -who represent rural constituencies in particular, know that it is a crying shame,almost every child fifteen, sixteen 0r seventeen has either h.ad teeth or has his or her teeth removed. It is bad in a t.1,alth sense to he dentureless, it is bad in a cosmetic ~ense, lt is had in a social Bense.

It just does not make sense in any way at all. 1 helieve that if we allow denturist to practice in this province under proper safeguards and with appropriate standards we would have helped to lessen that state. He will not remove it. }1r. Speaker. There will he people standing in this House fifty years from now and when they are talking ahmi: dentistry, tam sure they will fie saying we do not have fully adequate dental services in Ne'1-1foundland. But I think we can have more adequate dental services by using denturists. That is why I moved the resolution. Now let me, Mr.

Speaker, mention merely two other things, first the question of raids or if you wish the R.C.M. Police carrying out their duties. Hy understanding of the situation is,of the 1968 Dental Ac.t,and I p:uess the honourable gentleman for St. John's West was Health Minister at the time it was enacted, that Act gives the Dental Hoard which i.s made up of dentists a very great deal of power. I am told that the Dental Board says that they have received complaints about the quality of work denturists have been perfonning. I know nothing of the merit of the complaints or indeed 9 < 9 /,,,i i:f u

February 14, 1973 Tape 85 PK - 2 whether in fact there have been complaints, but I a.~ told there have heen such complaints and I am willing to accept that. The Dental Board feel that they must follow up on these complaints and that is what lead to the request that they have made to the R.C.M.Police to carry out the raids,to seize evidence and to prepare for prosecution. I would hope, Mr. Speaker, and I cannot see any act of that sort heing mandatory, I cannot see it requiring that a prosecution must he laid~ It would be a very unusual act if it left discretion with no­ body.

I would hope that the Dental Board would refrain from these prosecutions, this activity,until such time as this matter is disposed of hy this House. Now it might be disposed of this day. The resolution may die here on the floor of this House. in which case we will go hack to the status quo, we will go on as we have heen. I hope it will not he. I hope the House will accept this resolution. rt merely directs the government to do something. It will obviously take the government an amount of time to do it. There are difficulties and the government have a lot of thinp,s to do. They have not done very much.

But I would hope that if the resolution is accepted the Dental Boardwill refrain I think it is needlessly provocative of them. They may 'Well have received complaints and they may well feel that these complaints are justified. But I would feel and I have not talked to the Minister of Health hut I am sure that he could find a way to meet any reasonable complaints to ensure that the public interest is protected without the spectre of the MounteL Police raiding a manfs home or a man's office, whether it be in the afternoon or the night that is beside the point.

Let us never forget that the only reason the Dental Hoard or any board huVe been given these powers by this House, the same as the medical profession has it or my own profession of law or the architectural profession or any profession, the only reason they have it,and all professional tend to forget this, Hr. Speaker, they tend to think that they have a God given right to a closed shop, but they do not. They have -2 4 4

February 14, 1973 Tape 85 PK - 3 that right to protect the puhlic interest and for no other reason. To protect the public interest hy setting standards and by maintaining them and by taking whatever disciplinary action is necessary. The Dental Board only have that power because this House gave it to them in a piece of legislation. I suggest to them, as a member of this House. that if the !-louse accept the resolution, they should take the hint. They should catch the. hreath of the wind.

Thewi.nds of change will be hlowing and they should refrain, the denturist, for their part j if they - I do not think they have provoked these things in this province, in other provinces they hnve, they deliherately sought a confrontation,.I suppose they may say there was no other way they could get their case heard, But here in Newfoundland the case is heinr heard. The denturists__,if they feel like provokinp, any further confrontation, I hope will also refrain. I do hope the matter will be settled. I do not think the place to settle it is with R.C.M.

Police raids or in the courts,not until this llouse has ruled. Mr. Speaker, just one other point in c.losing:Ti-ie denturists maintain and the evidence seems to support them on this although a dentist will quarrel with this,that the service they provide will reduce costs of dentures significantly. The dentist do quarrel with this. I am in no position to say who is right or who is wrong~ If I had to make a judgment I would suspect as in most of these matters there is some right on each side and .some wrong on each side. My errperience has been that very much along these lines the honourable gentleman for St.

John 1 s South,who has been involved in this type of thing,is one who I suspect would find the same thing. There is usually right on both sides and usually wrong on both sides. I hope the cost can be lowered. The original resolution that I had drafted required the government to take steps to lower the prices or to control the prices. I did not put that in the resolution in the H0t1se first of all because I have grave douhts as to whether it is constitutionally

February 14, 1973 Tape 85 PK - 4 possible for this House to undertake such acts. But even if it is possihle to do that because I have very grave doubts whether that larger principle should be embodied in a resolution wh:i.ch really deals with another matter, another matter of substance nonetheless I think the fact of cost is one which should concern us. There are thousands of people in Newfoundland who need dentures today. For many of those people the cost of dentures is a very expensive item.

I am told they are around S200 or $300, !s that the sort of charge that one gets into for a nomal, an upper and lower plate,without complications? AN HON. MEMBER: Including the surgery. MR. ROBERT~: Yes. hut I mean it is not that sort of think. You know it is not a five dollar charge. it is a couple of hundred. The denturists apparently produce what they say to be a sirailar service from $100 to $200. The dentist say it is not a similar service. The denturists say it is. I am not taking the position because I do not know. 1 think that is a sip,nificant fact and one which should he horne in mind in the debate.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion~let me say again that I put this motion forward in a completely nonpartisan sense. I do not pretend to he nonpartisan because I am not most of the time. Indeed I think this House is a partisan body. This is why we have gentlemen sitting to your left, Mr. Speaker, and gentlemen sittin!?: to your right. It is the very basis of the system of government which we have in Newfoundland or have in Canada or the so-called British system. Parties are the very life and stuff and zyssence of the democratic system as it exists in Newfoundland and in Canada.

But I put this forward not as a Liberal measure or as a Progressive Conservative measure or anything Plse, I put it forward as a measure which I believe should come to the floor of the House. which I believe is timely and which I believe is one that has benefits for all of our peoplf,. Without any hesitation at all I ask for the support of each and every honourahle member for this resolution. Thank you. 246

Fehruary 14, 10i3 Tape 85 PK - .5 !1.QN_,_jl~'l_.A. T. ROWE: (MINISTER OF HEALTH): I rise to speak to the motion proposed by the honourable Leader of the Opposition on the suhjeet of dental technologist, sometimes referred to as denturists. I would like to atte~pt to place the whole matter in a proper perspective for the henefit of the members of the honourable House and for the public generally.

Before I p,et into my subject I would like to refer to some of the points make by the honourable Leader of the Opposition and certainly as far as I am concerned there are no political aspects in my presentation, I happened to he much more interested in the matter or health than in polit:!.cs. As far as the question he raised of waiting untH after the hrief from the dentist come. J think that in this d:f.rection that we are perhaps in a much safer position to speak hefore the dentists' hrief arrive8 as we cannot then he corn::;idered to have haserl our presentation on the sugrrestions made hy the dentists.

So I feel in this rer,nrd 247

Fcnruary 14, 1973. Tape 86, Pare l -- arib or we cannot be considered to have alirned ourselves with any surgestions made in their brief. ROBERTS, --~----··· (Inaudible) DR. ROHF: Well that will be nvailab1e. No one vnuld disap:ref' with the statistics presented by the honourahle ncnber on the dental-patient­ ratio and certainly everybody would cert.;,.inly nrree with the need for improved dental care.

As far ns the question raised ::ls concerned, at the nrf'sent time., under the act, the denturists are practicinr: illegally and this is the nuestian which we should discuss with the hcmnurnhle }i'inister of Justice. On ~rondny, Fel;,ruary 12, T rcce::ivcd n 1,rief frm'1 the dcnturists a copy of which was at the sarte tine passed to cnch of the memhers of this honourable House and this hrief is not,• t1 einf! studied hy me nnd by officials of my departr,ient. However. I should like to make it clenr that at no time have the denturlsts contacted me directly or renuested .an interview w:i.th me.

Contact indeerl was made with me only obl:iquely hy several members of the House of Assemhly to whom the denturists have brou_p.:ht their prohlems. I should state 0t the outset thnt the denturiRt) althour,h he does not lerallv exist in this prov::l.nce at the present tir1e or lndeeil :ln certnin other nrovinces, iH a dental technolog.ist or a dental mechanic and the term denturist :i.s itself reallv a self-appo1nted title.

In li!le with certain other provinces, I should state that thP p:overnmcnt will five serious consideration to the lepislation for denturists and with this end in view we are at present studyinp- the lcrislntion Phich is in effect and the legislation which is proposed in other provinces, those who have legalized and nre proposing to legalize. The two main arguments put forth in favour of unsupervised rlentur:ists dealing directly with the public are;

(1) Dentures will be provided at a much lower fee and

(2) The denturists will be nble to provide denture service to areas wh1ch do not have access to dental 248

February 14, 1973, Tape 86, Pap_e 2 -- apb services. The experience in provinces where clenturists have been licenced seens to indicate that this does not nhm.vs in foct occur. For instance. reference is mnde in thP 1{}70 Wells P.eport, presented to the Government of Ontario. It looked into the matter very carefully and made the following statement which 1s worth p:ivinr? a quote. 'The ad hoc committee on dental auxiliaries has heen perturbed by the n;:mner whereby a decision was nade to licence dental mechanics in British Columbia and Alhcrta.

It conzir 1ers that it wns most inapproprinte for those prov:i.nces to licence pe-rsons,with duhious qualifications nnd a record of illegal practice,to perforo thfdr services directly with the public.

The conrni ttec memhers submit that the claims that this step would reduce the cost of prosthetic services and would increase service in run1J nreas are largely unsupported. 1·There is evidence that after this lep-nl decisi0n wns r:wde, the f;reat maiority of dental mechanics practiced in the 1arpc cities nnd the cost of their services rose hecau;:;e they lv1.cl to mnintnin practice estahlishments with h:ig:her overhead costs. 1 • It would he interesting for the mc.rnhers of this honournhle House to hear at this tine some infonnntion regardinr, the situation in certain other provinces as it applies to the question of denturists or dental technologists.

The Leader of the Opposition said thnt there are provinces where they are allowed to practice. Let us just look at a few of them. In the Province of British Columbia these workers are classified as dental mechanics and they are permitted to rn.ab: full dentures only when they receive a certificate of good oral health from a dentist concerning the customer ahout to receive the dentures. That is quite a stipulation. In British Columbia they are allowed to practice. The requirement to practice in British Columh:f.a is two years in a vocational school givinp a course in dental mechanics. followed by t't,;o years 249

February 14, lfl73 1 Tape 86, Page 3 -- apb npprenticeship under a certified clental mechanic. A ,1ery strinp:ent rule, n very acceptable rule. No nuarrols, that is British Columbia's stand. In the Province of 1-fan:i.tobu, they are also called dental nechanics. They are at present developing a train::Lng prop:ramme. I understand the regulative requirements will be similar to those of the Province of Brithh Columbia, lmt 1 th:!nk in 1'1anitoha, the possibility of the grandfather clause nay onerntc with suitable reservations. Two provinces with very strinp_ent requ:i.retnents.

In the Province of .Alhcrt;i they are referred to in the act as certifjed dental mechan:f.cs and they require ns in Tiritish ColunMn, two years vocational school tr.n:Jn:inp. in a dental course and two years apprenticeship under n certified dental mechanic. In the Province of Saskatchewan no net has heen passed. As far as I can establish. authorization exists only for dental mechanics to repair dentures. This can b0 done without supervision by a dentist. The Province of Ontario, the hill has pnsscd third reading hut it is i.Mportnnt to note that the act has not Peen razetted.

In the Province of Ontario they are called dental therapists and they are required to work under the supervision of a dentist. Of course in Ontado with the act not being p_azetted, and until it is razetted, there :ls no authorizat:fon for peonle to perform work in this capacity. I note that in Ontnrio, the penalty for practicinr in thiR capacity outside the law, is a two thousand dollar fine or six months in jail. Nearer hoMe, in the Province of Nova Scotin., the bill has passed second reading.

I have a copy of the net here with me and in Nova Scotia this act relates to the formation of a hoard and does not include regulations or stnndards for people to operate as dental tcchnolop,it=>ts. Information from senior health officials in Nova Scotia tells me that they are endeavouring at this time to develop a set of 250

February 14, 1973, Tnpc 86, Page 4 -- anh regulations, looting closely at British C:olumhin, Hanitof'n: /ilherta and Ontario. Let us consider; these are areas ;;.,here these nenplc are allcved to practice. but remenber the strinf,'.ent standards that have been laid down in these provinces. In the ProvJnce of MeP nrunswick no net ,1t the moment. In the Province of Quehec, I have not heen nble to obtain anv recent informatfon. As far as I can f"ind out, tiw Province of Prince Fdward Tsland lns no act. Let us forr,et C.nnn<l0.

I went throt1f:h some research Fith my nffici.;;ls to consider vhn.t is happening elsewhere in tiw vorld. In the Pni ted Stntes there iB no '!trrisdiction nllowinp: /10ntnl mechnnicr; to deal djrectly with the riut'l1c. In f:reat Pritinn, tlic position of the dentist is specified hv ler:i1sl,1tion. The subi<'ct nrose at the introduction of the great British Notional Health /,ct, hut the government refused to consider F:anctioninr riractice for the nul,J ic bv dcntnl :tTlechanics.

A dental Bill ennc:t;:,d hv the Rri.tish House of C:omrrions in 1955 stated; No Amdliarv worker may fie nuthorizecl tr, fit, insert or fix dentures or nrtificial teeth.' This hill dr.:istical]y increases fines for those who attemnt to do so. A few other countries,if you are not bored: f;crmnny, this country ¼as the first to introduce health insurance. Due to a shnrtape of trainc>d personnel in 1914,(wny back) dental mechanics were permitted to worl'. directly for the public. In a short tiroe. dcntnl mechanics ucre performinf all types of dental service directly for the public.

Dental service wns so hadly deprecinted that the rmblic: demanded only qualified personnel he permitted to practice. In Pnrch 1952, the German Government enacted lep-islation very carcfullv confininp the practice of dentistry, includin~ prosthetic dentistry, to fully ounlified dentists. Sweden, the government passed a law in 1957, limiting the 251

5 February 14, 1973. Tnpe 86, Page 4' ~- apb practice of dentistry entirely to fully ounlified dentists, with a severe penalty of a heavv fine for .a first offence and prison without option for a second offence for technicians and those uho attempted to practice dentistry. One last one. Japan. The law prohibits dental technicians from working directly with the puhlic. Int!enendent studies dealinp with the denturist question were carried out, not for the henefit of the dental r:1echanics or the dentists, but for the },enefit of tlle public. All these studies concluded that

February 14, 1973 Tape 87 JM - l denturists should not be legalized to work directly for the public. These studies were undertaken by the World Health Organization. the Health Committee Board of Health in New Zealand 1961, the Special Committee of the Legislative Assembly in Manitoba 1966, the Wells Report in Ontario 1970, Committee of the Healing Arts in Ontario 1970, the Ontario Council of Health Task Force on Dental Technicans in March~l972. Number one.above referred to,is a technical report of the World Health Organization prepared by an expert committee discussing the role of auxiliary dental personnel.

They made the following observations on the function, training and education of dental labratory technicans: "The dental technican whose main function is the fabrication of appliances should work accordin~ to the prescription and under the supervision of a fully qualified dentist. 1 ' Therefore in view of the informntion I have given pertaining to other provinces and certain other countries throughout the world this indicates that these workers are strictly controlled from the point of view of training required and from the point of view of the work which can be preformed and the supervision of this work once the necesary qualifications have been received.

However to revert to our own province and our own problems,there are some very important points with regard to proposed legislation which have to be studied and these cannot be decided in haste. Now one great concern which I have is that in all the public statements and discussions which have occurred recently regarding denturists nobody has deeply questioned, if indeed they have questioned at all, the qualifications or the standards of those who are preforming this work albeit illegal at the present time in this and certain other provinces.

In my opinion the legalization of denturists or dental technologists is not in itself an important issue but rather the standards that the legislation prescribes. Legislation is easily obtainable. For example, Nova Scotia legislates but no regulations or standards are included. The important issue is then having as our first concern the 253

February 14, 1973 Tape 87 JM - 2 health of our people and secondly the cost to our people. It must be accepted that people who are to be allowed to work in this or any other health area must have acceptable standards of qualifications in training. For example, physiotherapists, X-Ray and lab technicans, other paramedical workers have first to obtain· certain standards and have to meet certain requirements before practicing. This point appears to have been overlooked in the public discussions, in the announcements and the emotional issues which have now developed around this subject.

Indeed when I was approached obliquely by the denturists through the two members of the hon. House of Assembly,I asked that they prepare and forward to me a brief. Indeed I asked to see them but they wished not to come to see me. I asked specifically that this brief should contain particularly details of the numbers of denturists now operating in the province and the details of the qualifications of the people who are operating. In the brief which was submitted to you at the same time it was submitted to me,no such information regardin~ individuals was given to me.

I would like them to come out into the open, identify their numbers and identify to me their qualifications and their standards. I do not know and I cannot find out the number who are involved in this type of work within the province nor do I have any idea of the qualifications of these people. Therefore 1 as the safeguard of health must be my first consideration,! would surely expect that the full information which I requested would be given to me before they could expect any decision to be given in any direction.

Now I understand that the training which was given in this category by the Canadian Armed Forces Dental Corp is possibly of an acceptable standard. If this is indeed the case and similar types of training might meet the criteria of acceptable standards for allowances to practice, if I could be informed about the individuals at present operating 1 it would help in developing some idea of the type of training 254

February 14, 1973 Tape 87 which might be required before anybody can undertake this occupation within the law. Jll - 3 Finally the main object of any bill concernin~ denturists would be to provide a safe and economical service of making available dentures to the Newfoundland citizens. Whether they should be under supervision and what type of supervision would have to be very seriously considered. They would hnve to go on an acceptable course of training. They would have to provide evidence of having completed an acceptable course which would ensure that all have reached a satisfactory level.

One should remember though that the making of dentures is essentially a part of the service of a dentist~ part of the training of a dentist and that dental training is itself a seven years duration after high school. So obviously it is an exacting task requiring skill. knowledge and training. But to finish I would say that I am not alone concerned about denturists but about the whole matter of providing dental services to our people. We are investigating the practical possibilities of developing other kinds of dental auxilaries especially in regard to the children's dental services.

All of these things are interrelated and need careful thought. Finally I would say that we should not be stampeded into hasty and not well considered action without re~ard for the problem as a whole. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, in the interest of the dental health of the people of this province I wish to place before this hon. House an amendment to the motion placed by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The amendment,that a select committee of this hon.

House be appointed to inquire into and to hear evidence on all matters touching upon the work of dental technologists, sometimes referred to as denturists, and to inquire into all matters pertaining to the practice of dental technologists and to hear evidence from all interested persons and to report to this hon. 255

February 14, 1973 Tape 87 House. This will be seconded by my colleague, the hon, member for St. John's South. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has read the a~endment. Does the amendment replace the motion? How will the motion as amended read if the amendment is accepted? DR. ROWE: I told you, Mr. Speaker, in my statement on this afternoon that the House would consider the amendment which I have brought in but in what direction the Speaker will have to decide, MR. ROBERTS: What I am asking, Mr.

Speaker, is assuming the House is JM - 4 to accept the amendment,and probably it will, how would the motion as amended read? An amendment normally drops certain words or adds. Maybe the gentleman from St. John's South. he knows what I am getting at so maybe he could - MR. WELLS: Hr. Speaker, yes the intent, I think, of the hon. minister's amendment is that when you come to the main part of the motion, "Now therefore

be it resolved that the government be directed immediately to introduce legislation, 11 that the remainder of the motion be strickened, as it were, and that the subject or the substance of the amendment proposed by the hon. minister be substituted for it and that it carry on from that point. That I believe is the hon~ minister's intention in suggesting the amendment. On the subject itself, Mr. Speaker, we have heard from the hon. Leader of the Opposition who has spoken at some length on this and I must say I agree with a lot of what he has said.

The hon. the Minister of Health has spoken at some length and given the laymen like myself a great deal of detail upon which quite honestly I am not competent even to comment. The thing that concerns me is the principle of what is Reing on here. Now we know that denturists or dental technologists, as they are called, have not been allowed to practice their trade or profession or whatever it might be in the Province of Newfoundland and the 256

February 14, 1973 Tape 87 Dental Act has governed that matter. There have been a lot of public outcry, a Jot of outcry from the denturists and there have been prosecutions mounted and various raids taken by the RCMP. JM - 5 It is not, of course, for the RCMP to determine the goodness or badness of a law and, of course, when they are asked to take action they take it. I do not blame them for raiding the denturists, not for a moment but I do agree with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that it is time that this was taken a look at.

Now he has resolved that the government be directed immediately to introduce legislation etc.

I think that is all very well but I think that this is such an important matter involving this group and involving more than this group but involving the dentists also and involving the }!;eneral public of Newfoundland that I have no hesitation in supporting the amendment put by the hon. the Minister of Health that a select committee of this House be appointed which would hear evidence not only from denturists and not only from dentists but from members of the public~ indeed as he puts it from all interested persons who have something to say and something to contribute to this whole question.

Because it is only I feel that after hearing this sort of evidence and weighing the thing that a select committee can report to the House and it is only then I feel that this House is in a position to make a decision. I would agree with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that this is not a partisan or a political matter. Whatever side of the House we are on we have a responsibility to the public of Newfoundland.

In this case we have a responsibility to them to see not only that they get dental care insofar as we are concerned in that but also we are concerned to see that groups or individuals who want to practice a certain profession or trade in this society have a right to do so under proper safeguards. So I think the suggestion of a select committee has a great deal of merit, Mr. Speaker, particularly it has a great deal of merit 257

February 14, 1973 Tape 87 JM - 6 because I feel that this House should have a greater role than it has had in the past in the use of the select committee to examine matters~ to get people's views-and feelings, to go into the whole matter in this case of the denturists or dental technologists whether they ought to be allowed to practice, how they ought to be allowed to practice~ I think this is one of the duties of the House of Assembly which in recent years it has not fulfilled to some extent and I would like to see it fulfill a great role in this sort of thing.

I do not know myself whether denturists should be entitled to practice or under what conditions but it is something which I hope as a member of this House to learn and to have the guidance of all sorts of people who would be prepared to give evidence and in due course the guidance of the select committee as we will all receive if it is appointed. So, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitancy at all in supporting the motion of the hon. the Minister of Health or the amendment to 258

February 14, 1973 Tape 88 IB-1 the motion that a select ccmmittee of this House he appointed. M~_:_}_. MORGA~,_: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the amendment pre~ent- ed by the hon. Minister of Health because I feel there are many riuestions to be answered regarding this rather involved and inPortant ouestion of legalizing denturists in the province.

The three rnost importantquest:i 0 ns that stand out in my mind are qualifications, standards and number three regulations or supervision • According to the br1ef submited by the denturists or the letter from the President of The Denturists AS$Ociation thev point out that the majority of the denturists are trained or previous­ ly were trained in the f.anadian Forces Dental Corns and they were train- ed on three different aspects of dental technology. (1) wns to take impressions or bite registrations (2) was the fitting of 3 denture and (3) was the making or manufacturing of denture plates Now, the question mark that stands out as wel1 are the dental technicians today working under supervision of a dentist 7 what nual­ ificatinns do these dental technicians or rlenta] rnechAnics have?

I would be willing to state that some of the denturists. so called denturists, are dental technicians wnrkinr; underground. In other words, a dental technician is working in a dentists office during the daytime under the supervii:;ion of a dS:ntist hut is also working after hours, if you wish, as a so-called denturist. The Question is,where were these dental mechanic::;, technicians trained? Were they trained merely under the guidance of a den­ tist or did they receive some formal training in some kind of a technical course?

As we know, there is not any technical training in this r,rov:i.nce under the technical schools, So, it seems that the only qualified man­ ufacturing or fabrication of denture plates today is these dental technicians that are trained strictly by dentists. A dentist, as we see a dentist todayt is working mainly on live teeth and, as the hon. Le?ader of the Opposition pointed out and hon. Minister of Health, that with one dentist per seven thousand people,I think it is

February 14. 1973 Tape 88 IB-2 very important that these dentists be made available to work on live teeth, to work on mouth diseases •'lt.c. and mouth ex- traction and not for the fabrication of denture Plates. So, T think, it is very important that either denturists or dental technicans be allowed to work on their own under some kind of supervision to give the dentists more time to work in the medical field. So, I would like to see all asnccts of this important question i~vestigated and I thin~ it is very important that what this honourable House is qoing is going out for consultation.

A select committee will be getting the views of the dentistsl the denturists, the dental tech­ nicians or dental mechanics and the general public and this is very im­ portant; the views of all concerned. It ls only after receiving the view of all concerned and bringing it hack to this hon. House that I feel mv government would be in a nosition to bring in legislation hecause as the motion previously put hy the Leader of the Opnosition wanted to direct immediately to introduce legislation. I think it would be impossible to do that without answerin~ all this questions.

I would like to see a training programme for the denturists as they presently operate mainly to detect abnormal mouths, diseases of the mouth so as if anything is found abnormal they could refer that client to a dentist and having it work vice-versa if you wish where a dentist, rather than take up his time in the manufacturing or fabrication of a denture plate, had his client after extractions and after a full ex­ amination of the mouth ref11rred to a denturist. We would have both dentists and denturists working in co-ordination. That is what I would like to see in this province, the two uarties working together.

As it stands today it is practically impossihle to get an appointment with a dentist and this is important to the general public. The other factor important to the general pnblic is the cost of the denture olates. I think the main Teason for the cost being so high by the dentists today is because of the fact that they are charging for their iervices. For example, if a client .26 0

February 14, 1973 Tape 88 IB-3 went to a dentist to get a denture plate there would be at least three visits to that dentist. (1) there would be a visit for examination of the mouth and for an impression to be taken. (2) there would be a visit to the dentist again for the examination of the size of the teeth required for the denture plate. (3) the final visit ,if you wish, to a dentist would be for fitting of th.1.t plate which r:ieans that the client would have to make three visits to the dentist?s office. 1hree separate fees and this will mean a cost to the client over and above the actnal manufacturing cost of that denture plate.

So, this could be one reason why the dentist or the nlate manufactured through a dental office costs more than going into a denturists office. The denturists claim that thev can manufacture a plate, a full plate, for the cost of approximately fifty dollars

whereas the same plate in working through a dentists office would cost approximately one hundred and fifty dollars. Now this would mean a substanial saving to those people who are on lower incomes and 1.ndeed people who are on welfnre, in receipt of social assistance and thiS is very important. If we can find a system where the two groups can work together and it means the lowering of the cost of denture plates for those people who presently can not afford them, I feel it is a very, -,ery important issue.

So, after the questions of qualifications are resolved and are understood and the 11uestion of what kind of standards to be set down and the regulations and who will make these regulations, I like the idea were it is no"- being brought before the legislature in Nova Scotia where a board consisting of representation from the dentists, from the dental association, from the denturists association and from the medical pro­ fession as well as of general public, I think that kind of a board will be a good kind of a board to regulate the operation, if you wish, of all 261

February 14, 1973 Tape 88 IB-4 dental technology in the province. So, Mr. Soeaker, before legislature can be brought in, we must have consultation, we must have the views of all the parties concerned. Therefor that is the reason why I support the amendment brought in by the hon. Minister of Health. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise just to make a few general remarks on the resolutions brought before the House. I rise to support the amendment or the resolutiontto me tt does not make much difference, legislation could be drafted by the government and then public hear­ ings held on it or there can be a select 262

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 89 NM - l MR. E_M. ROWE: Committee of the House and certain informational imput can be made in that way. I think the important thing, and the honourable member for Bonavista South has touched on this, the important thing is that as a House we should no longer tolerate any professions whether they be lawyers~ doctors, dentists, denturists, architects, barbers, beauticians, you name it, Mr.

Speaker, making use of this House to get their own little profession governed by their own set of rules without anyone else really having an opportunity to look into the merits or demerits of what they are proposing to be passed by this House. The important thing, Sir, is that other ~embers of the public who may be interested, have an opportunity to put their views forward and try to change the projected legislation to the benefit of the public generally. Now, Sir, I do not profess to know much about denturists or the dental technicians or what they propose or what the dentists position is on it.

I do know however, Sir, that I suppose inertia and overcoming inertia is one of the hardest things to do when it comes to any profession in our society or any other society in the world. The dentists or the lawyers or the doctors of any profession have a certain sphere of interest, a certain sphere of influence and they will fight as hard as anyone,! would say, to try to keep any encroachment from being made on their practice or into their profession. Luckily such inertia has been overcome in the past, Sir, because if it had not been I would submit that medicine, for example, would still be practiced by barbers.

I would say that the dentists themselves are an offshoot of the medical profession historically. So the inertia has been overcome by the efforts of certain interested groups in society. I think that this type of thing should go on. The categories of professions should not be closed by fiat and they should certainly not be closed by the orders of any interested profession themselves. If there are going to be any offshoots of professions, if professions are going to be broken down further then everybody in society certainly has an interest in looking 253

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 89 NM - 2 MR. ROVTE: into that situation and trying to see whether that is in fact in the best interest of all concerned. For my own part, Sir, as the member of the second oldest profession mentioned here today, I do not fear these auxiliary groups or these paragroups whether they are paramedical, paradental, paralegal, para-architectural. These auxiliary groups making encroachments on the traditional professions, as a matter of fact I welcome it. I think it is a good thing. How often have I heard in the practice of law that lawyers do not have time to practice law. They are too busy.

They are too taken up with other mundane and sometimes often clerical duties which could be looked after by other people who could be trained to do it. The same thing applies to the medical profession. I think that the practice of medicine could be done better and cheaper if greater attention, I do not think it is an easy question or an easy problem to overcome and nobody is being a laggard in it but I think the practice of medicine can be done better and cheaper by the use of all other auxiliary groups or paramedical groups. The same thing applies to dentistry.

I think in this House we should welcome any attempt to cheapen or make less expensive the services being provided by professions to members of the public.

For that reason I do not fear it, I welcome such a resolution such as is before the House today, not only with regard to the dentists or the dental technicians but also with regard to other professions which are presently practicing in the province, as long as there are adequate quality controls on these paragroups, these paradental groups or any other groups or these auxiliary group, quality controls on the work work to do, as long as there is no lessening, no diminution of the qualities which traditional professions have been giving over the years.

So I have a great deal of pleasure in supporting the amendment as it stands. We have no objection over here to the amendment; that was

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 89 NM - 3 MR. ROWE: one way the private members' resolution could have been worded. I think perhaps what the honourable Leader of the Opposition had in mind was the government drafting some legislation so that we could see where we stand. The government could use some expert services to see what has been going on in other provinces in Canda, other states in the United States, come up with a piece of draft legislation, submit that to public scrutiny and see what comes of it and make whatever additons or deletions are necessary.

This is another way to go at it, have a select committee of this honourable House and have some public informational imput put into our discussions in that way. I am happy to see, Sir, that there appears to be general agreement throu~hout the House of Assembly that something should be done about it. I think that in the past few weeks we have seen some things which we should not see in our society.

We should not see the strong arm of the law being used as a bludgeon for any group which is trying to get ahead, especially when the law in that case, as applies to the legal profession or the medical profession or any other profession, the law in that case is really a law which is drafted by the profession concerned, in this case the dental profession, but I do not blame them entirely, is drafted by them and more or less pushed through this House without adequate scrutiny in most cases being given to it.

I think again as I have said before, in the future we should not be used in the House as a tool of any profession. If there should be public hearings, people should have an opportunity to make their views known. I have great pleasure, Sir, in supporting the amendment or the resolution, I do not care which one passes but I support the principle inherent in the resolution before the House. 265

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 89 NM - 4 MR. NEARY: Mr~ Speaker, I indicated first that I wanted to speak. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the amendment presented by the Minister of Health and I do so for a number of reasons and one of which was touched upon by the member for White Bay Southo Several weeks ago, as a representative of the Premier, I entertained the fresident and other members of The Denturists Association and at that time I suggested to him that they prepare a brief to be presented to the Minister of Health and that I would arrange,with the health officials and with the Minister of Health, a meeting at which time they could present a brief to him.

Subsequent to that the denturists went away and prepared a brief but did not contact me in order to have the meeting that we had talked about earlier and hence it was left then for the opposition or for somebody else to bring in a resolution on the floor of the House and so it came about this way.

Hence what the member for White Bay South suggested~that perhaps it could have been done through the Department of Health, preparing some preliminary legislation and having public hearings and whatever could have been the way to do the thing,but the denturists did not see fit at that time to have a meeting with the Minister of Health and go about it in the way that we had suggested earlier. Hence it came upon the floor of the House and now we have that resolution from the opposition and the amendment as proposed by the Minister of Health.

Therefore, because it happened this way~in this procedure, I have no hesitation at all in supporting the amendment as proposed. Throughout all the districts in Newfoundland it is a known fact that dentistry and dental hygiene and whatever need far more people in the field than at present. Because we have a group of individuals, although practicing illegally, I think their problem should be looked at and perhaps this might be now the best way to do it. 9 6 ,, ,., 0

February 14, 1973 Tape No. 89 m-1 - 5 MR. PECKFORD: As the member for St. John 1 s South mentioned in his few remarks, it is a way in which we can make perhaps better use of the various members of the House on a select committee and do a full-scale investigation of it and bring in their report and recommendations. We ask the denturists a few weeks ago 26/

February 14~ 1973 Tape 90 IB-1 to supply the information from the various provinces and I think the Minister of Health himself since got that inform- ation from British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba and in Nova Scotia and one can see that in the nublic mind,very often~ such a perhaos legitimate complaint is made by a ~roup such as the denturists and everybody gets carried away with the iustice of thing that such people should be recognized. Thev are not fully cognizant of all the ramificationf; involved therein.

So hence I think it is very important that ve look seriously at the matter and get at the root of it and entertain the denturists. This is the thing we wanted several weeks ago, to have the denturists come i.n anrl f!ive us here some of the problems with their qualifications right now What of kind of rules~if we are dealing with twenty, twenty­ five, thirty, fortv~ fifty individuals?

We will have some guidance as to what kind of qualifications nrocedure we should set uv if we know exactly where these people stand in relation to their auaUfications which we do not know at the nresent time which perhaps throu~h the legislature or the House we shall now know. So, it is a big problem and it is a problem that now the House i.s 1ming to deal with. I am verv happy, as a matter of fact, that it came up as a resolution from the opposit:lon so that we could ~et a chance to discuss it,but the problem 1s far more involved than many of the public realize.

The business of the RCMP attacking or going to people 1 s homes and taking their equipment and so on hecause their not legally recornized is a serious problem and of course this is blown up in the media and in the oress and people reading it tend to think that the establishment is out to get another group of people or are legitimately trying to do the thing. Well, as the law now exists, you know, what you do,the hon. member for Honavista North,if you were in a position where the law,you know, let us face it, there is not much else we can do and if somebody 268

February lli~ 1973 Tape 90 IB-2 complains about i~ I think now denturists should recognize that the elected representatives of the neople ,,f this nrovince are going to do somethinp about their orohlem, that all the facts have to be taken into consideration and that thev are go1ng to have to come out as a group, sav who they are and 'Phat the qual:lfications are and then hooefully some desired result can be attained.

So, I have nn hesitation at all in supporting the amendment as brought forward hv the Minister of Health and the quicker we get on with the select committee Bnd get all our reports in from all the qualified people concerned the quicker the whole problem of the denturists will be resolved. ?J.!t~_:~~_!iJJ_:_ Mr. Speaker, 1 must forgive your honor hut I would like to remind vour honour that there are two sides to this House. I just want to take a few moments, ~r. Speaker, to say that I support the resolution and the amendment whichever comes first. I was interested in the remarks of the hon.

Finister of flea.1th and I think he was pretty fair. I thlnk probably he was a ltttle bit nnive though in his remark about the <lenturists not givinµ: a list of the names of those who are actuall v practistniz in Newfoundland at the nresent time or what qualifications they hnd. I think probahly the minister made that statement with tongue in cheek because ~hat guarantee, Mr. Speaker, would the denturists have if they sunplied the hon. minister with a list that next the RCMP would not be out and raid all these practi~ing denturists. The minister could not give them a guarantee and I can aporedate that. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. minister asked, "well how can you legislate if you do not know what the qualifications are or how many there are1 I would sny 11n order to get at wqat the minister is trying to get at 1 that you would have to guarantee these people that they would not be raided, that action would not be taken. How would the denturists know, 'Mr. Sneaker, but the Minister of Health would pass the list over to the RCMP,which I do not think he would do, but how would he know that some offical in his department who is sympathic with the dentists ~ and there are people down in the minister's 269

February 14, 1973 Tave 90 IB-3 department who are symnathic with the denturists? How would he know that they would not take the list and pass it over to the RCMP? So, I think that is a little bit of an unfair criticism of the denturists. I do not blame them. Tf I were in their position I would do the same thing but I think that they have made their noint½ It does not matter to me whether the resolution passes or the amendment but one thing for sure, Sir, that we do need a service in this province and I found this out when I was Minister of Social Services nnd Rehabilitation.

I can speak from some experience and I imagine the Minister of Social Assistance is finding it out, that people in this nrovince are in a desnerate state when it comes to having the facilities to chew up their food. Thev can not afford to buy uppers and lowers, Sir, and the government does not provide them.

I have a letter here from the 'Minister of 11ealth on a case that I hrought to his attention on February the ninth,and the minister himself states in his reply to me, 11 you are aware of the regu1;i,tions for supplying of dentures, I am sure that you would aopreciate that although we can be very sympathic to this need, there is nothing in the nresent regulations that allow us to suoply the dentures in this naricular case'' and the reason the dentures could not be supplied, Sir, was because the man did not have a peptic ulcer~ The minister says. 11 I have now received the report of the medical condition of this man and I find that in the man the diagnosis is related to anxiety and cronic depression.

There is not any evidence of peptic ulcer which if it were present would give me some grounds then, Sir, on which to authorize dentures," and then the minister winds up by saying, 11 1 realize that the sum,Jv of dentures is a major problem and I hope that I will he able to work out some practical way of help­ ing our citizens in thts matter. 11 Well, Sir, that is the under state- ment of the year. We have people i.n this fJrovince today who are sick~ who have been told by the doctors that they have to be a~le to chew ·27 0

February llf, 1973 Tape 90 rn-4 up their food, diabetics, neople with cancer and they can not 11et a set of dentures, Sir. Sir, the stories that I could tell vou would make the member's hair stand up on his head and so, Sir, J think it is ahout ti.me that t.:e took this step. As a matter of fact, }'Ir. Speaker, the hon. member for White Bav South reminded me in his remark v1hen he referred to the lep.:al nrofession. Well, Sir, I would say this th Rt if there is a public bodv estahJished to regulate denturists then 1 would say.

Sir, that thjs recipe should be copied for other nro­ fessional groups esneciallv the lawyers to regulate legal fees in this province. I am sure that these are not lm-ryers who are sunnortin~ me from the other side, Sir. So, t4r. Speaker, uo to now the denturists have been driven underr,round but thev have heen advertisinp., they have been delivering their dentures. Not only that, Nr. Speaker, hut the denturists deliver dentures to your home,you do not have to go to thr office.

Why, I was on the hoat one dav about a yenr ago and here was a denturist on his way to Bell Island to deliver a set of uppers and lowers to a poor, little lady 271

February 14, 1973 Tape 91 PK - l over on Bell Island and I think he gave them to her at bargain price $25. or $30, $25. or $30. If she had to RO to a dentist it would cost her a couple of hundred or $300. Maybe an advertising scheme, look I have a pack of matches in my hand, let us make you smile, Here it is and you have a set of dentures on it. They are not second hand. It says, · 1 service while you wait. n MR._JflJRPHY~ Are these plates reflectorized? t.KR~ NEARY: That is another story. We will deal with thnt later, Hr. Speaker. So I nm all for this, Mr.

Speaker, but I hope and I think the minister is sincere~ I hope that this js not the six month hoist that this House is giving this particular matter because it happens to he a bone of contention at the present time. Controversy is raging over it. The pnhlic are demanding this service so I hope it is not the six month hoist that it is getting, Sir.

I hope that this select committee if it is set up will not only meet while the House is sitting but will meet all throughout the summer, if necessary, and that if training is necessary that it will commence over here in the Colle~e of Trades and Technology this Septemher coming, and not a year from now, Sir. This is an urgent matter. I hope the committee will deal with it quickly and that this September coming a course can be started over here at the College of Trades and Technology to train denturists or dental technologists or whatever you want to call them, Sir. HR. M.

WOODWARD: I would like first to say that I support the resolution and again the amendment I suppose the resolution came first. There has to be a resolution before it is amended. I am not so concerned ahout the professions in the Province of Newfoundland whether we certify denturists or whether we certify lawyers or people of other professions. But I think the thing that should be done and when we bring in legislation into this province we should see that the province is properly serviced. We should not certify denturists to work in St ..

John's and Comer Brook and in Grand Falls and forget about the rural areas of our province. I think there 272

February 14, 1973 Tape 91 PK - 2 should be legislation hrought in, in all professions that we certify. It should be said that they have to work in the whole of the province and not in particular designated or viable areas so that they can make a fortune. In the particular area where I am thinking ahout denturists. I do not recall in my day of living in Labrador having a dentist from the Island of Newfoundland.

He do have a numher of dentists who come in on a rotation basis from the United Kingdom, coming in and working with their patients for a period of f!.tve to six months and then going back to the United Kingdom. There is no continuity in the service. AN HON. ~'EHBER, IGA. HR. WOODWARD: IGA, yes. There is no continuity in the service. I think this applies to all of the professions in Newfoundland. The ·, rural areas are not hearing of the professions. Fine. I think the dental work that is done for Lahrador most of it is done in Halifax.

If you want to get specialists care then you have to travel this great distance to St. John's or Corner Brook to see a dentist to p;et some expert work done, as the case may be. 1 think those are the areas. I do not want to speak on the denturists or certifyinp, the denturists as such. But I think we should take into consideration when we are from here on in, in this particular House, certifying any particular profession that we must have the understanding that they are going to service the whole of the province and not just a small portion of it. Thank you very much, Hr. Speaker. MR. T.A.

HICKMAN: Firstly, to deal with the rather unusual point raised by the honourable member for Labrador r.:orth 1 I cannot conceive any kind of legislation that could ever be passed to certify anyone, be it a profession or a trade or anything else,that could specify in the legislation that you must serve in a particular part of Newfoundland. The point he makes that rural Newfoundland has not received the attention from the professions that one would like to see is a very valid 273

February 14, 1973 Tape 91 PK - 3 one. But it would he a very sorry day if we ever try to legislate the people as to where they should practice or where they should reside. Hy main purpose for rising or maybe it is a twofold one, is {1) I want to clear up this matter of comments that have been made with respect to the R.C.M.P. raiding the offices of the dental technicians. This has not been the case, Mr. Speaker. I will say this slowly so that there can be no misunderstanding.

The law is very clear that under the Dental Act which was unanimously passed in this House,in 1969 I think it was or it might have been 1968,there is a provision that authorizes the Newfoundland Dental Association to make by-laws prohihiting any person not reristered as a dental technician to practice. It is also provided under section (44) of the act and this is an unusual provision that it gives representatives of the Newfoundland Dental Board the right to enter and inspect laboratoriefi of dental technicians. The act is silent as to who is to lay the informa.t:f.on or to prosecute it.

Any action that has been taken to enforce the flental Act or re~ulations made thereunder. At! HON, ME!-IBER: Who was the Minister of Health then? MR. HICKMAN: I was the Minister of Health. AN HON. MfilffiER: No wonder it back-fired~ !--1R ~_HICKHAN: I was Minister of Health and I was very proud to brinp, in that. It is a good piece nf legislation. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ~-~_HICKMAN: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. JIJCKMAN: But I say it was

an act,as I recall very vividly,the only person who had any questions at all as to the soundness of the act was the then honourable Dr. Frecker who was rather concerned because there was a prohibition ar,ainst dentists who were graduates of the schools in France practicing here and we had to vostpone it for a while· Other than that

February 14, 1q73 Tape 91 PK - 4 there was a unanimity. It did come in as a p,overnment hill. It was not a private members hill. It was a government bill at that timP. But the act is silent as to who is to lay the information or to prosecute that whatever action has been taken in the enforcement of the law as it exists and I do respectfully submit, }.tr. Speaker, that it would be a very sorry day indeed if the poli.ce in this province or any other place were placed in a position where they would only enforce laws that they felt were good. That is not their prerogative.

If this House pass a law and a complaint comes to the police and the same applies to a bingo game, if a complaint comes the police cannot question nor do they, l:ihether they think that bingo is a game that should be pursued or not they have no discretion insofar as the enforcement of the law is concerned. Because.give them that discretion and you are on the road to chaos. AN HON. HEHBER: Inaudible. ---·-- MR. PICKMAN· t'e are turning society into no su':h thing. Now, Mr.

Speaker, because these things and 1 want it i·lear do not come to the Department of Justice. because the Department of Justice becomes only aware of what is seen in the paper with respect to these private prosecutions. I did make it my business when I read this to find out what had happened in St. John's. I think it is relevant to note that the two searchs that were made in St. John1s were made as a result of complaints laid by two residents of this province who had received work from dental technicians, one living just north of here 1 ol,tside of St. John's,and the other a resident of the south coast.

These people went to the Newfoundland Dental Association filed a complaint,asked them to take the necessary action. AN HON, HEMllER, Inaudible. 275

February l/1. 1973 Tape 91 HR. HICKMAN: The Newfoundland Dental Association - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. PK - 5 HR. HICK:MAN: Let me finish what I am saying and I just want to make the fact so that there can be no mistake about it.

The Newfoundland Dental Association, so I am advised, acting upon the complaints of these two Newfoundlanders, then informed the R.C.N.P. that under section (44) of the act which gives the Dental Board the right to enter and inspect that they were to do this and they asked the R.C.M.P. to accompany them~ not for the purpose of making a raid, not for the purpose of conducting the inspection but becaoae if they are entering upon premises under a particular act to be there to maintain the peace should there he any difficulty, this is the total :lnvolvement of the R.c. 1,r. P. Now, Mr.

Speaker, may I Fepeat that r would hope that we will never reach a stage in this province or anywhere else where a discretion is given to the law enforcement agencies to decide on whether they believe a law is good or bad. I do say that there is significance, Hr. Speaker, in the fact that these complaints were laid 276

February 14, 1973 Mr. Hickman. Tape no. 92 Page l - MRW by two residents of Newfoundland. The route they followed apparently was through the Newfoundland Dental Board. The act as I say is silent. It was not necessary for them to do that. They could have laid the complaints themselves, if they had so desired. That is the total sum knowledge of the facts as they come to my department. Now, Hr. Speaker, on a far more or just as important a position - I think that we are very prudent to follow the course that is recommended in the amendment put by the hon. Minister of Health.

I would not like to be placed in a position where I would have to make up my mind, simply upon receiving a brief from one group or the other 1 as to whether the Newfoundland Dental Act should remain as is or whether there should be legislation providing for the practice of technicians, dental technicians. I simply do not know whether dental technicians are competent to give the kind of health care. No one should confuse or should think that this is simply manufacturing a denture. It falls into the category of health care.

I do not know whether they should be given the right to do this on their own or whether there should be supervision. I want to hear - I notice from looking at the Nova Scotia Act that they have not precluded the right of supervision but rather they have given the right to make regulations. My concern, too, Mr. Speaker, is that when this select committee sits, if the House so desires, that it not only take into account the qualifications of dental technicians.

I would hope that there would be no suggestion that there be grandfather clauses* There could be nothing more dangerous than saying a man has been doing this for three or four years and nobody has died yet so, therefore, he should be allowed to continue. If he has not the qualifications, if he cannot meet the test, if he cannot pass the examinations that are set by a board or created under any legislation, then he has no right to practice 277

February 14, 1973 Mr. Hickman. Tape no~ 92 Page 2 and we, as a House, must make abundantly sure that he does not. But over and above that, Mr. Speaker, we should also bear in mind what this may do to the practice of dentistry in Newfoundland. I do not know how many dental technicians are practicing on their own today or, as the hon. member for Bell Island said (I have forgotten the word) moonlighting or behind closed doors; I have no idea. AN HON. HEMBER: Underground. MR. HICKMAN: Underground~ But any cases I have read of in the press have been confined to the City of St. John 1 s and the City of Corner Brook.

There may be others, I do not know. I do know that government have had great difficulty over the years in keeping practicing dentists in the smaller communities and in rural Newfoundland. I am told for instance that this year there are four or five Newfoundlanders graduating from dental schools.

My understanding is that under the agreement with the government or with the Minister of Health, the agreement that has been in force for a number of years, that they are obliged to come back and practice in Newfoundland but the !1inister of Health does not have the same control of selection of practice as he does or tries to have or thinks he has over practicing doctors. Rather they can insist on practicing in an area where they will make the income that they believe that a dentist with having completed eight years of university is entitled to make or that they can make in other parts of Canada.

I am told that of the four who are coming back this year, two of them have decided to go into partnership and to practice dentistry in the Bonavista-Trinity North Area, somewhere in Catalina, Bonavista. I am also told that for a dentist to practice in rural Newfoundland, in an area of say ten or fifteen thousand