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:~arch 11, 1980 The House met at 3:00 p.m. ~r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) 7a:.:>" NO. 264 Dvl - 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS :'-IR. SPE::.KER: The hen. Minister of Mines and E~ergy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, in the course of debate on the Throne Speech by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (/1r. Roberts) 1 he stated that the federal govern- ment would have to obtain the consent of all other provinces before agreeing to a constitutional amendment which confirmed our province's ownership on offshore oil and gas.

Because ~his same erroneous statement of Canadian constitutional law is being used by others to excuse the present ?rime ~inister's refusal to confir~ our Province's ownership of these resources, I find it necessary today to set the record straight.

I refer to the basic text of Canadian Cons~itutional Law ~y Peter Hogg, en~itled 1 Constitutional Law of Canada a': ?ac;re 20 and I quote: ~The federal gover~~ent has neve~ accep~cc that the provinces into c~e a~endina precess. always have a righc to be brcu~h~ There is no historical case :a~ unanimo'..ls ?rovincial conser.t, or even ceneral provinci.al consul~ation 1 as a pre-requisite to request for amendmen~~ o: ;:.1:'.:: ar:;.. !"·.-::~ / at l:=a3-= t.:!o.se ·...rhi:::, C.:. :1ot al:.:::r t:- ~e C.istri2u- tion of legislative power. ~hare have beer. :ifteen ~~?O~~a~~ amendnen~s to the 3NA Act .~ hich have b~~n reauested ~~, t~e I . - fede!'a: Parliament and e~acted ~r~ ~he United Kingdom Parliament; of these only four, those of 1940, !95111960 and 1964 had th~ ~nanimous consent of the ?rovinces 1 and only one ot~er in 1?07 was passed after pric~ consultation ~it~ all t~a ~~evinces and 1 in ~act, in that case British Columbia =id net agree but the amendment ?roceeCed neve~theles3. 698

~tar::h ll, 1980 Tape No. 264 ow - 2 !--lR . L. 30~L=t'!!

T~e ot~er ten of che fif~eer. amendme:~es were requested !>y th·e fede .ral ?arliament and enacte-:i by the Onit e c Kingdom Parliament: without pric.r consultation rttit:h the provinces. 11 ! have arranged !'or s•J??Orl:ing st-atements !.rom the book entitled, Favreau , '!"he amendment: of The Canadian Cons ·t:itution to be a.:.stri!:>u1:ed and made available to hon . members . 5opefully, hon. me~~e:s 099os:te will no w ag=ee t~at it is ~nly a matter of having the goli~ica~ will to do so , ~~~ch is ~eeded to permit t~e ?reser.t- ?ederal Governmen .t to make t~e same co~fi:- matio:1 o! ou~ of!shore rights ~s ~·as earlier given by P:ime ~i~~ster ~la:k in the 639

~arch lL 1980 Tape No. 265 SH - 1 SOHE: RO~I. ~!E)o!B~ : sear , hear! :-IR. 5A.RHY: - i:l the document, ~lr . Speaker, the support:ing document whic!l will be distrJ.buted in a moment to hon . members. There is an exe:::pt from t.~e relevant ?ages of this te:«: ···hich was ,?repa::ed !>y the hon. Guy Favrea u , •..;ho •..;as a Liberal Cabinet: }finister, and in fact he •..as Ju;>t:ice }!inister under Mr. ?earson, and in face we have a compU.me.'lta:y introduction oy the hen .

Lester a . .Pearson, Ptim e ~tinis::e:: of canad a. so I •N"Ould submit chat r.!le contents of chis tex c should have some parcicular • ..,eigh1: fo:: hon. member s opposife.

And just ~n~f! y co conclude : would like co point out that even when Newfoundland joined confederation a resolucion was moved L'l t:he F.ouse of Cc~~ns, this is r-efer: ad co on gac;e fouzo-;.e-en, which is goi'!'\S ou~ t!> :netnbers , " ~ resolution :.>as moveC: i:l t:he House of commons :.~ r ging that r:his amendment, r.o i nclude ~e · .. -foundland ·.-ithin canada. nee :,e proceed e~ unt:il i!.fte.:: ;;onsu.lcation ·Nir.h r.he prcvinc.!.a1 government:'! ." W'r.ac the resolut:ion meant by ::or:.sultation to~as :to~ clear. 3oweo.,.e:-, the amendment 'Jas l!nacted 'N'i:.houc such ::-onsult:.ation and wit.~out: ar~y ei c~e provi~c~al qovernm~s :Oroaily. objec~~g ~ ~~s :nac~~c, L~ouq ~ cne or two ?=ovL~c~~l goverr~ent:s s~ated ?~l:cly ~~at con3ul~~~ofi >hculC have taka~ ?lac~ . 50:-JE :iOM.

ME·lBE...~ : ~~ . SP~&~~ (Simms) : 3elle Isle . l'!R. ~SE~TS : Thank yo\! , )1:::. ape~..lce.r . Hea~, h~ar! ~he hor.. ~ember ~or the St:ai= cf ~ . Speaksr, in m~ years i~ ~~e House I have :lway-s understood ~haz: !-tinis~e:-ial 5~atements, a::.ci in =112$ _ a:m bol~ter.ed by che ~~cacion :.n the most cur=e nt edit:1on .:f 3e..auch-es:te, 262, "'iih~e fo~ -:he ?Urpose of ;::onveyi.ng i:'lion atio n. :.ct of conv.eyin ·q :.lebat:e. '' ;u:c of coursf! ::...,e rnL~is1:-er' s ;;·~~emerr: is s i..-nply a cow~ci.l ~ ~t~ay o f anc~ing into a debat:e . because I a.o ~ot allo\o;ed ~o deha.c.e it in re1:u..r:1. 700

!>'.arch ll, 1~80 MR. 3.\R..'l.Y: unpar llamem:ary language . :L-=t. S?D-'<ER ( Simms) : ~ . 3ARRY: Tape l)IO. 265 Nl·l - 2 A point of orde:r. Mr. spea.l<:er. That is A point of order. I suppose it is to be exgec=d from the hon . member when he is caugh~ out in such - whether i t is a deliberate, intentional attempt to wislead t.he people of this Province, or whethe:r i1: is just simple negligence in not having done his research. But r ask hL~ to retrac~ that refe:rence to cowardly. !f the :-e is anybody cowardly, Mr . Speaker, it i s not on tills side of tn·e Souse. SOME HON. lm"'BE?S : .'!R. S?£.l>JCER: !!ear, hear ! 0 :-der, please! 701

March 11,1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) of Belle Isle. MR. ~OBERTS: Tape No. 266 AH-1 The han. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it is unparliamentary to accuse the han. gentleman of doing something cowardly. I will however, raise a point of privilege and say that he blundered in his usual fashion by imputing motives and questioning the intentions ~nd I would submit that is a question of privilege.

And before , Your Honour, deals with the matter of a point of order he should first of all, he, the han. gentleman, should be requested by Your Honour on the matter of privilege to withdraw the imputations about the motives which he attributed to han. members here and then if Your Honour would deal with the question of whether or not the conduct is cowardly. The question is not whether it is cowardly or not it is cowardly. the question is whether it is unparliamentary for that tern to be used.

But first I would ask Your Honour to deal with the question of privilege which,of course,under our rules must be dealt with first. It is the essence of an unparliamen~ary procedure; it is a grave breach of privilege to question the motives of han. gentlemen no matter on what side they are. We have already had talk of traitors =rom the gentleman from St. John's North (J.Carter) and of treachery. Sir, ~he demeanor of this House will fast be dragged 1own to the level of a beer garden by han. gentleman if they keep this up. MR. BARRY: MR.SPEAKER: ~!R. BARRY: To the point of privilege. To the point of privilege.

If there is anything unparliamentary here as the han. member has indicated in his course of logic, it is obvious that i~ is misleading -what he has said from my statement and the 3Upporting documentation Ifl Mr. Speake~, 702

!1a:-ch ll, 1980 Tape No. 266 AH-2 li:l. 3A:lRY: the:'e is ~ny~~ing unpa :liamenca :y in drawing the logical co ncl usion that that is eit~er int entional or neqligent,and it wo uld seem to me that these are the only two logical conclu sions that wo u~d :low, L would,of course, with d:::aw them. aut I ask , li::: .

Speaker, tha t the hon. member withd:::aw the co wardly a c~usati on of co wardice. lo!R.S?EAKER (Simm s): Orde::: , please : ·~o the point of privil ege.: wish to reserve judgemen t on the ?O~ ~t of privilege until ! get an oppor~ ~n~ ty to check Sansa :d to see exactly what was said and then : will give s rul ~ng on that la ter in the day. To the po~nt of order.

I !lelia ve the :'e:e rence to th e word 'co wardly' has bee n ter~ed unpa rliamenta ry in th e past and ! wou ld simply ask the hon . :rom ~he St :'a lt of Bell e Isle Ol r.Roberts ) 1:0 •.rJ. thdraw :hat anci that should ~ispose cf chat par~!c~lar ~oi~~ o! order. !1R . «OBERTS: Of course I co, Si:-, without a:1y rese: -vatl.on. Mow, ~r. S_pea .<e=, lf : m_ay respond ~o the hon . gen:leman's s~atemen~ ~n A subs:an:ive way whJ.cb !

Ln:e~d to do and I ~ill be no mo r ~ lengthy ch~ n :te is . :.:.=s t of all, 3l.~, ~ 'AoulC ;nake :~e .?O..L:'l~ :hac ::.~e ::on. -=en:: lernan 's ass a::: ior. ::hac so01et. hinc; ~s so ·:loes not: make ic so anti hl.s ass e=t.~on that the Cons :: i~ution ~= Canad~ 1s a~enCabl2 t? =ne ?~QceCu=e which ~e has ~cv erced c~ :oes ~oc rep~ese~c :he =ea licy ~o~ ~oes !c ~ake ~he ~ ~a:i:1. My hon. and learned ~=~end c~ted one oe the :exes on cons ~i t~ciGnal law. ! do not hav e o ~ hers here but pe:::haps the c;ove:::~an~ wou ld oo:~dge by pu tt~ ::; down the text. on cons::it~t~onal 703

M~ch ll, 1980 Tape 267 EC - 1 MR. E. ROBER:I'S : law. In the meantime, for the benefit of the smirking P·remier, he might want to look and he might suggest to his colleague - SOME liON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. E. ROBERTS: - that in tabling the first pages of Monsieur Favreau's White Paper, he might also wish to tabla several other succeeding pages and in particulu- to look at the proposa.ls which represent ~~e current wisdom set forth on Page 35 of The Powers to Amend the Constitution of Canada in a particular

Section 2 of the draft act, and the h.on . gentleman might wish to note

Section 3 - MR. L. BARRY: (Inaudihle). MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. E • ROBERTS : Mr. Speake::, I am not Allowed to debate and so I cannot. I said,'the proposals which represent the current ~~inking'.

Furthermore, I would point out to hon. gentletnen opposite t.ilat all of the recent amendments on matters of this type - and those are the words which I used in the debate - all of thO! recent amendments have been =animo us , and I would simply conclude this by saying ~wo things: First of all, I would invite the gove::nment, if they bel ieve in the intellectual integrity of their pos ition, to put a motion down on the Order Paper so it can be debated in thO! appropriate fashion and at length. SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PEC!CFO'RD: It is down now. MR. E . ROBERTS : Where is it down?

PREMIER PECK?ORC: Pri?ate members' resolution. MR. E • ROBER'!'S : I said a government motion - private members' we have twenty minutes each for two days. That is not­ let us go by the regular (inaudihle) • SOME i:ION. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR . E. ROBERTS : Let us go by the rule of government time . !f this ~tter, Mr. Speaker, is of such importance as the government would clai~, then let us use ~~e time of the House for that, because surely, if i~ is of ~~e essence of ~~is Province, as I believ~ it is, there is nothing :nore impor ta.:l-t.. 704

March ll, 1980 Tape 267 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : !:!ear, hear! MR. E. ROBERTS : It should not be relegated, Sir, to a private member's motion. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is in the Speech from the Throne. MR. E. ROBERTS: So it is in the Speech from the Throne. So are all sorts of things that will never see the light of day. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Si.Imns): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member has half the time of ~~e minister·to respond and I believe we should allow him that opportunity. .MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I find it marvellous that those hon. gentlemen opposite who are so confident, they tell us, have to try to,convince ~~emselves by blackguarding members on this side - hardly the ~rk of confident men or men who believe in their cause. Let me conclude by saying ~~at I would invite the government to set up a procedure whereby some of the eminent constitutional aut.~orities of canada can be brought before this aouse or before a committee of this House - PREMIER PEC<FORD: (Inaudible) • MR. E. ROBER..."'S : I am sorry, the Premier- I did not hear him.

The Premier apparently said something but it did not mean anything - at least he does not want to repeat it - some of the emi~ent constitutional authorities, some of the spokesmen learned in this matter to set the matter at rest and let us test the opinions of the experts. I do not hold myself out to be ~~y more of an expert than does the gentleman from Mount Scio (Mr. L. Barry), but I hold myself out to know at least as much as he does, Sir, about ~~is subject, and I would say that no~~ing in his statement, Sir, has changed in one jot or tittle ~~e reality and the substance of what I said and what I st~~d by.

And finally, I would rely on nobody less an eminent authority than the former Prime Minister of Canada, the 705

March ll, 1980 Tape No. 268 SD - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: right hon. Joseph Clark. And I think if the hon. gentleman looks back he will find some interesting references from Mr. Clark on the need to involve the provinces in constitutional ~ndments of this sort. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. E. ROBERTS: There will be no constitutional ~ndments in Canada, Mr. Speaker. There will be no constitutional amendments in Canada of this sort without the unanii!Dus consent of the provinces.

Whethe~ it is expressed by a resolution of a legislature or by a decision of a government in a province is another matter, but there will be - there have not been for twenty years and there will be none, Sir - MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) law . MR. E. ROBERTS : There will be none. The law of the Constitution is like international law7 it is what is accepted as such and my learned friend would concur with ~hat. MR. BARRY: Oh, I see. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that is the law ~~at ~~ere will be no amendments on matters of this sort wi~~out the unanimouscconsent of the Provinces.

The governments can whistle as they wish to pass their graveyards but, Sir, that is the fact, that is the reality, that: is the best legal 3.dvice t:hat I have been able to obtain 1 better than my learned friend opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Are there any other statements? 706

March ll, 1980 MR. SPEAXER (Simms): MR. 0. JAMIESON: Tape No. 268 so - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. order, please! Mr. Speaker, in view of the events that have just transpired and in view of the supreme importance of ~~s matter and all of its ramifications, not merely the question of the techniques that might be employed to maximize Newfoundland benefits and the like,but because we are getting piecemeal ministerial statements in the House and outside ,as well as news reports and the like which are very much lacking in substance -apparently in some cases 1 will~~e hon.

Premier in the interest of Newfo~~dland and in the interest of having members on ~~is side - apparently he does not feel that we are sufficiently vell informed , I would hope to get as much information as possible-will he now indicate his attitude with regard to the proposal for ~~e establishment of what I would assure him would be a nap-partisan or a by-partisan committee which would have the ability to examine ~~ese matters not with invective and the like but in the sensible way that surely both he and I should agree at least that we should go at this question of the offshore issue.

AN !iON. ?-!EMBER: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the PraT.ier. P~MIER !'ECK!'ORD: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Leader of the Opposition's question but let me say to him clearly and unmistakably and hopefully it will not give rise to ~~is question again ,that this matter is so important to me personally and I think to hon. members on this side that it is not a question, it is not a matter of a select committee studying whether in fact Newfoundland 707

Harch 11, 1980 Tape No. 269' EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Labrador owns, should own, must own, has some claim to the ~ineral resources on the Continental Shelf. This party and this government has won an election based on that as one of it's tenants, one of it's principles. We go forward from the day back in June, l979,until the next Provincial election, confident in the claim that we have the ownership rights to the min­ eral resources on the Continental Shelf.

That the Oil and Gas Act and the regulations that have been written as a result of that act are/is the policy of the government of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and that all the ben~fits ~,at flow there from are in place and will continue to be the policy of this government. There is no question. SOME HON. ~MBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: It is not a matter of questioning, it is a matter of fact and of policy of this government and so ~here is no question of who has control or who has ownership, because with ownership :ames control. We own the mineral resources on the Cantin- ental Shelf.

We have

an act which says that. We have regulations which govern the off s b.o re develo9ment of our mineral resources. That is our position and we-solicit the su!Jport of ~,e hon. the Lead­ er of the Opposition and all members opposite in this on-going battle to win a chance to be at least, if not first-class citizens in this Confeciera~ion, as close to it as is possitle over the next twenty or t!J.irty years. SOI':E HON. ME~ERS : MR. D. JAMIESON : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) of the ~position. MR. D. JAMIESON: Hear, hear! A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. A sup~le~entary, the hon. the Leader ~I.

Speaker, with reqard t~ the last part of the Premier's sta~eroent, let roe say that he has ~he full s~p- port of the Opposition - 708

~a:ch ll , 19 60 Tape No. 26~ ~- 2 SO~ !:0~. ~!!:MS£RS: iiear, heaz! MR. :>. J'i'I.."U!::SO~: - and I suspect: o! che vast majoricy of Newfoundlanc!ers. I also say to him . by .. ·ay of

preamble, that chis is not in c!'le lease argu111encacive. I am si:r.ply aski~g the hon. che t>rem.ier r.oc even to arque t!'le poinc,if he is going co do ic through mir.iscerial. stacemencs, it is obviously inadequate. What: I am asl<J.n<;: is, will he escablish a select: committee so that. full ciecails of ~hy he feels as strongly as he does , and chat of his associate~ can be laid out ir. a mannez which will enable us to understand a little more, a li ccle Jr.Ore fully.

He may feel :hat he has all of :he ans,. ;ers cue obvio~sly as rece~tly as yesterday, there was a ~uescion tr.at arose. : :,a:r.;~:1 co agree w~th the covernmen t, ty the way , ~a ir:'s pcsicion ~i~~ re gard co che Conti ne ncal Shelf. Th _is, a~aia ! emphasize is :to: a ~ces~ion of Ce .::ace or of arq~nt:. I am sayL,q ~:tac t..Us is ~.., __ e cl.ggesc issue, obv1ously , for the future of ~ewEour.cilar.c :hat has =.ee:l 709

~!a::-~h l:!., 1990 Tape ::o. 2 70 01·: - l :·l::t. 0.

JAMIESON: a::-ound ~n a long cime and are ::he hon . member s opposite suggescing that we are incaoable of in a reasoned manner jus:: s~mply !inding in detail some of the implications :hac are present, that have not been answered , ~ich the greatest of r espect , exce~t co ::he sa:is!action of oem~ers oppos~te who as cte government have access to a greac deal of .information which is not available to us or to the people of this ?rovince. ~ow , I am not asking him :o change his mind, I am not even saying that at the end of the exercise it could be a position where we might !ully and totally agree, ! simply saying thac i! our support ~s to !:>e solicited ., if the:-~ is ::o !:>e a !'equest that we b4c~ :19 •.;h a:ever i::. is :.he government: ~os St.!ting, :.-:. cannot :Oe i:t ge~era!i~i~s ~e ~ust know some~~!no a lit~le mo~e a~out what the leqal premises are on whi~h it is based ar:d 1 a lso , :.: ~e ca~, !i~C ouc in a ~easonad fas~~o~, 1 ~e?ea~ . what so~e o: :he ot~er details of this p=oblem are wit~ ~e car: :: ~~'li:on~e~:al con~ ~ cl. w~:b :eca=d co a w~ole ra~qe o! 1=:e:- nat!o~al ~ces-:.~ons. ~:.

S?e3ker, ~~ : cannot ~c !~ t~=ouqn a salec: commie~ee : ca~ assu~2 you ~ha~ :~e~e A:e l~O ques;tons we ca~ ask ~e:e 1~ ene House. :·!R. S. ~l::,\R'! ; h'ell sa~C. ~R. S?~~KER (S;.~~

s) T~~ ~en. ch~ ?~e~ie~. ?RE~::~~ ?~CX~~~~: ~r. S~ea~er, a selec: co~:::ce~ !s ~c: se~ ~~ :o !~~o=~ :~e ~~~os 1c~ o~, !~ !s :o sol~:~: ~~fo:~acion a~d v:.e~s o~ cha :u~l1:.A~d as : undersea~~ :ne Le~~e: oE t~e ~??Osi ; !on <~ =· Jam!~son) ~ow h~ ~a~:s A se:ac~ eommi~~e~ so :hac the aover~menc can i~!~rc ~h~ Op~os i ~~~- ~~ ~~e ?OSi ~ ~on cha: we have as L: =e l3:es to =~e o! ~s ho re ~:n eral res~urc es. SC~~ ~ON. ~E~SERS: No, :-.c. 71 0

:-larch ll, l~S O Tap e ~o . 2 70 ow - 2 ~RE!HER ?ECl<::' ORD: That i s wha~ the Lead e r ot the Opposit:ion just saic , Mr. Spea~er, and I can only ta-ke him at h is word and what h e says . Now, if the Leader of the Opposition i s ser i ous and if the Op?os i tio n is ser iou s in ;:h_is approach , a. selec~ commit~ee .is not the answer. A select eommittee i s establis h ed to ga in and garner public opinion and in put into 2oli c y ~ecisions th e g overnment is about to :nake .

We h ave alrea d y :nad e a d ecision tha;: we ~ave o wnership of the minera l reso~ces , there i s nc point o: a selec~ committee on this .. The government has made a d~cis ion and will r i se or !a ll o n th ac decision in the elecco r ate of New:oundland and La:rador . SOME HON. ~E~BEaS: ?a?:MT~R PECK:' OaO; Rear. :~ea:-!

And iE the ~eade r o: ~he Oppositi on is saYinq ~ow t~a~ ~e fully su?~orts ~h~ ~ove:~rne~ c on its position o= o~r.ersh:p c: ~ he ~ine = al resou:ces ~~e n le t ~L~ come ouc clearly and say ~hat . t ~at che Li be: al O?pos~~ion supports the s tand cha t ~~ t a ~e on t~e owners hi2 of ou r ~ineral :~so u rc es. ~hen ~e can be~1n co talk :o : n e ~pposi - tion abou~ ~~e ~a ::er s - ~~por ta n : . s!gni!icanc matce ~s : ~ac flew f:om t~a~ ;olicy ?=i~ c i?led deci sion. ! u : le ~ ~he=E be no mistake abou : i~ 711

!-!arch 11, 1980 Tape No. 271 EL - 1 PREl-IIER PEC".<FORD: ~here is no point of establishing a select committee to decice on whe~~er or not Newfoundland or the government of Newfoundland shoulc take a position on the ownership of the mineral resources because this government is willing to stand or fall on that issue.

And we have ~ace a ~olicy decision over four years, I have personally made a policy decision over four years tcwards establishing this particular policy as a firm and absolutely unshakable principle that the govern­ ment, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador own the mineral resour­ ces on the Continental Shelf. so that,therefore, select committee is not the answer. What is the answer?

If the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and the Opposition presently existent in this House of Asse~bly will come cut clearly and unmistakably on the side of this qovernment in it's ongoing battle to ensure that we have ownership of the mineral resources, ~e will make whatever is available to the Liberal Oppos­ ition on an hour to hour basis, twenty-four hours a day, so that they understand all the control ~echanisms, all the other things ~hat flow there from. But there is no question o~ the principle.

There is no ;>oint of a select co1!11T1ittee on the principle because 1.•e will rise or stand, in thi3 Eouse, outside this House on the princ~ple of ownership which is a major siq~ificant plank in this administration's policy as it relates to resource develoFment. SOf'.E HON. 1·1EMBERS; Rear, hear! ~!R. D. JA.'1IESON: A supple~entary, Mr. Speaker. M_~. SPS&XER (Simms) A supplementary, the hen. the Lead- er of the Opposition. MR. J. Jl' .. '!IESON: ~lr.

Speaker, ! understand the rules well enough to know that I cannot be ar~entative even thou~h I sus­ pect or suggest that the Premier's answer was really mere rhetorical 71 2

~!arch ll, 1980 Tape NO . 271 EL - 2 !-!R. 0. JA.'lll:SCN: ~~an anythi~a else. S0\'1£ !!ON • !iE!iBE~ Oh, oh! l1R. 0 . JAMIESON : Lnsofar as a selece cornmi~~ee is con - ce rne d, there is ample preceden t for a selec~ committee being appoint ­ eo to examine tile policies of a gove::nmen~ a.nd co ask ques~!.ons about: ~~ose policies. So t:ha~ I see nochin~ inconsis~n~ ~i~~ t:ha~. Insofar as the seconc

part is con­ cerned, N.r.

Spea.l<er, ! would ask the Premier ~ !1e is u.n•..,illing , and quite Erank.Ly I fine it. quite i.".coJ!!P re hensab:e that he wculc not be willin~ ~o. in a selec~ commit~ee ans wer ques~ons,will he a~ least ~ake ~rom us a lis~ of questions whic."t we '-'Ould ::.~ prepared to- : ···ill write him a lett:er, it can be personal and coniident:ia1, 1f he so '"'ishes , on some very fundamental basic ?Oints on which, re­ gardless of ~': .e decision that he has :eache d, t!lat the basis on which he has reacned :hat decis1on 1s clearly one ~;at: t~ere is so~e argu­ ;::e:"lt. a.bout.. ~lh at '"e are askinq, just simply asking is, what: was ~~e :esponse ~r what. is t.he a~t.i~uc!e wit h re­ ga:d to cer1:ain o~her scands c..~ac. ha ve been tai<.en, oucside Qf t:Us House all ::oc;ec..~.:- , a:1C ~ow <!oe s t...~e go,.·errur .ent o~ ~~e ?=~'tle: choose ::o c!eal Wl~"l c.."teo: ~lO '"' t re~eat, once again, 71 3

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 272 NM - l MR.. JAJ.'1IESON: that I am not doing this argumentatively,. I am genuinely, as I believe many Newfoundlanders are, concerned when there are statements made by reputable authorities which do not seem to square with the position that the Newfoundland Government has taken. Now to ask us blindly to give support without knowing what the position is of the government in response to those other reputable authorities, not saying to change your mind, I under­ stand, Mr.

Speaker, that the government has taken a position, I would like to know in a calm, dispassionate kind of way, what answers the government gives to some of these other points of view, and some of the reserrations which I legitimately hold my­ self, and if I may say so, I think t~at there are surely some grouncs for saying that I have some competence in this matter. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: Order, please~- The hori. the Pre~ier. Mr. Speaker, I am not questioning whether the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) has any competence in t~is matter. ! am not questioning that. I ~~derstand that.

And ! also understand that there are certain questions that might arise from time to time in the minds of members on this side of the aouse, as well as that side of the House as it relates to the working out of the principle of ownership. And we are willing to, either in a public letter from the Leader of the Opposition to me, answer every and all questions as to how we want to relate that.

But it does not dispute the policy objectives and firm stand that this ?arty and government takes ftS it relates.to .the ownership of the mineral resources, That there are problems in working out those things, obviously there are. Obviously there must be. But we are willing to answer every and all questions that the Opposition has or any other member of the public or the press has on this issue openly, and freely, in whatever form the han. Leader of the Opposition wants to take. But I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that 7 1 4

~larch ll, 1980 Tape No. 272 NM - 2 ?~U::::R !'ECX::O:tO: he prese .nc his ques::ions ::o us , or to me i::t r.-riting, and let us publicize it. aecause ! wish -:.o answer any and 411 queseions which ::he Opposition finds confu sing on this issue. ~)o q'.lestion. MR. STI:U.ING: l~hat are you afraid of in a s!Uect COIIUilitte e? ?R!.'l!ER ?ECXFORD : The select. COII!I!Ut:tee does ~ot answer any ques::ions on ::hac whole - The regime is in place. MR. STIRLING : Well whac are you a:::'~ic of? ?~~ER ?E~ORD : We are a.fraid o! !'lochL"'<;, Mr. Speaker. We are a~raid o= nochinq. And the me~r ~or aonavis~ No rch (Mr.

St~rl~g), albeit he is aspi.:::.ng to be ~e new t.eader oE the ::.ibe.::al ?a...-ey, are= the present t.eader leaves r.is o ~f ice, will not gain any points at all, ~ownie poL"'es, backbench points, froneber.ch ;oin::s on caking chae ~ir.d of an approach. ~he fac: of th e matter :.s. ::his is more serious c=-:an h~s as?L:a~on s. I:: ~s more serious ::han all ou.:: asp:.Zat~ons. ~,d : ::_-y ::o a~~ r ::he Leader of t:he Opposic!on (~.

Jamieson ) in ~~e sp~ric in '<"~hich he asks the question . ! am willing, able. and wancinq t:o answer all quescions chat might lead to cor.!usion on behal! of ehe Opposi:::.on as i:: relates co ::.'"t~s :.~hole .:.ssue. 3ec.ause .as the teader o::: c~e ~pposic.ion says. and as I sa:, 3nd as : ~~i~~ a loc of peo~le wi:: say on bocn sicies 71 5

March ll, 1980 Tape 273 EC - l PREMIER PECKFORD: of the House, it is an issue of great import, not only for today but for generations that will come afterwards if we are serious about trying to solve some of our problems. SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAn:R (Simms) : The hon. the UleJIIber for Windsor - Buchans followed by the hon. the member for LaPoile, followed by the hon. the lllelllber for Lewisporte. MR. G. FLIGHT : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines ~d Energy (Mr. L. Barry), or possibly in his capacity u Minister of Industrial Development. lie could answer in either capacity, really.

It relates in a sense to the offshore and the regulations under which we are operating. The activity in drilling right now is probably as high as we will ever see and over the next Summer and onward there will be as much offshore drilling of oil wells as we could expect to see in a development situation. I want to ask the minister why it is, Mr.

Speaker, that we are not living wi~~ those regulations? - and one of the products that is used all the time in offshore drilling, barite, why it is that the offshore drilling companies are not using the barite that is so readily available in Buchans - that he is aware of that the two companies concerned have been doing studies on for the past three or four years while ~~ere is known to be a ten or fifteen years supply there, where the market is right off our own shores, where the work force is going down the drain in aucha~s why it is that we are not in ~~e business and why those companies are not in the business of producing and selling to the offshore the bar~te ~~at is available in Buchans? - ~d ~~e effect, of course, would be to buoy up ~~e economy of that town.

MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. BARRY: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Sceaker, I would like to start ~y saying that I hope the hen. member is going to be able to explain to his constituents in Su~~ans ·~y he is supporting a position that was caken by the federal government which ~ould not in any way permit ~~is Province to 71 6

March ll 1 1980 MR. L. BARRY: IISed offshore. SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SP~R (Simms) : of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON : Tape 273 EC - 2 influence the materials that would be Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a point of order. Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Leader Mr. Speaker, with respect, I would ask you to eltallline the

preamble to that question which clearly indicates that t.."lere is some kind of motivation behind the question, and which in no wa.y what4oever has the hem. member on this side said anything with rega.rd to whetller he is supporting policy or anything else, h.e is asking questions. SOME liON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. BA,Rl<Y: MR. SPEAKER: oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, to t..'lat point of order. To t..~e point of order. MR. L.

BARRY: I did not iJnpute any 1110tives and . t merely refer. to the speech the bon •• member ~~~&de - I do not know if the Leader of the Opposition was in the House, l:lut !=he hen. member !Dade a speech the other day, the direct thrust of which was tilat - P~IER PECKFORD: MR. L. BARRY: No jobs for Buchans. - he questioned the 71 7

c1a.J::ch 11, 19s-o Tape No . 27<: AH-1 MR. BARRY: policy of this governrnen~ and in :act attributed a~ti - con!ederate mot i ves to our atte mpts to get local ~ate r ials and local l a bour applied offshore. MR. MORGAN: He was opposed to it . SOME aoN . MEMBERS: Se a:::', heat: ! MR . MORGAN: He was opp~seC co l~ . MR. SPEAKER ( SIM~S): Any further discussio~ or debate on the point of order?

In res?ect to the ?Oin~ of o r der ! wol!ld ::-u!e that t.be..re is not. a. ~oin. t of. order i:1. chi s pa:ticc. la r case . !f ao ~on . member is not satisfied with the answer to a question then ~here is a car~ain ?~ocedu~e whi:h ~e ~ay foll.:>w. ! will as~ ~~a ~~n. M!niscer of -Mi:tcs and !:1-e.rgy ( Hr . Sart'

y) t.-o answe:= the ~uest.~,n please. :1R. oAil.R'i: !1r . Spea:Ce~. just co qo on. This is :he ve ~y ~eason ~hy we ~r9 assa~ci~; ~~a~ ~ew!oundlanci o~n~~ship an~ :on~:ol be :eco gnized ~cd con~i~~ed ~y gov~r~mencs, ~y :he fe~e~~l gove~n~e~~ ~~ci by ~ompanias who are cp~ r~t in g o!fshore~ ~nd w~ ~ave =P-;ula~~ o~s in ?lac~ , ~r. S9eaker, ~hie~ requi~e c~mp~~~es ~o g~~e ~ re!er•n=~ co ~oc~l m~~e~ials - PRE~:!R ?3:KF ~~D' 'rh..at is o:-rl:' a a .;-n-, as -'U= ra;ulacions a??ly . ~L~ . 3A.?.R!: - 35 lonq d~ ou= =~gu !at ~ens a re the ones wh!e~ 3re ~ecog~ized as apply in~ . ~N HON .

SE~BEK: d R. 9~RR!: ·,lho is ~:::gui~;- 7 !>t.t" . Sp~a:.te.:-, :. !'le ~ on. membe= ~p~osit~ 3sk ed, who is ar;ui~g? The ?a:~y wh~c~ is ~n _po1"" e r .. Octawa, wh i =~ ~so! ~he aeme po!iti~~~ p~:scasica as t~e ~on. membe~ oppcs~te, is S~??Or:i~ q a posi~io~ which would ~ot permit th1s qotrer~me~t co a p? ~ Y c ho5e ~egu la ~ions. 71 8

:-larch 11,1980 Tape No. 274 AH-2 MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, the company in Buchans has carried out a pilot project and my understanding is tha~ that pilot project was successfully carried out. Negotiations are being held with a worldwide supplier of barite and because we have our Newfoundland local preference regulations in place, that company in Buchans has the opportunity of saying to this international supplier of barite, 'Join in this venture with us because other~ise you will be at a disadvantage when it comes to supplying materials such as barite to the offshore: ~ow, we have set, Mr.

Speaker, this government has set the environment, the proper environment which gives an advantage to local companies. It is now up to the company at Buchans to strike their deal, to strike their deal either with this international company they are now negotiating with or another or to do it themselves. Mr. Speaker, there is still a place for private enterprise but we have prepared the groundwork, we have set the regul~tory environment which ~ives the local preference and ~e ask hon. members opposite to recognize this and to support us ia making sure that th2t remains the law of this Pravi3ce and of this country.

SOME BON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.SPEA~ER (Simms ) A supplementary. The han. ~ember fer ~indsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the first part of the minister's answer ~as a red herring and a cop-out.The minister should know, Mr. Speake~, t~at the barite sit~atio~ arose in Buchans five years ago, long before - while he was still in nalifax being paid by this government to advise - >1R4 SP~.f. . .S:E ,P.: Orde:::-, please! :1R. BARRY: (Inaudible) before it star~ed, Mr. Speaker . :1R. S?E;>. .:<E:R: Order, .?lease! The hon. member is beginning to 71 9

March ll,l980 Tape No. 274 AH-3 ~R.SPEAKER (Simms): drift into the area of debate. I would ~ssume that he has a supplementary question and would direct him to ask that question please. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the company that the minister refers to as the supplier, the ~ajor supplier of barite, the fact is that as far as Buchans is concerned 720

March ll, 1980 Tape No. 275 SD - l MR. G. FLIGHT: ASARCO and Abitibi Price will be the 5'.1PP1iers. Barite of Canada he is talkinq about is the marketer. MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Simms l : of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: On a point of order, ~r. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. President Maybe the hon. member finds difficulty in framinq his supplementary question - _MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. MARSHALL : MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. MARSHALL: I do not find it difficult, boy. -but the hon. member, I t.'link, - I find a lot of difficulty - Order, please!

The hon. member has been - (Inaudible) that is what I (inaudible). Order, please! The hon. member has been called to order, Mr. Speaker, for the way he was addressing his question, entering into debate,and he then proceeds albeit in a little weaker voice, not as strong, not as emphatic but he still is continuing on in the same vien. I would suggest to Your Honour that if he does not frame his supplemen·tary question that he be asked to take his seat. MR. E. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E.

ROBERTS : First of all, I am sure my learned friend opposite did not mean to be as offensive as he was when he said he suggested that Your Honour should act in a certain way. That is a 1110st improper thing for !!t'f learned friend to say, he ought to knew better. He does not direct the Chair. Now, I would like though to speak specifically to this point of argument in questions because I t.'link the questions that we have heard, the questions are provoked 7 21

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 275 so - 2 MR. E. roBERTS: by the answe ,rs because the gentleman from Mount Scis (Mr. L. Barry), who above all others ought to know better has been, I suggest, abusing the rules. The rules are cle~rly set forth in Beauchesne. The citations are 357 and 358 and I think it is common ground and I would hope that perhaps all members would heed. Your Honour has r~led en this, I believe, on a number of occasions.

Let me just read 358 (2) and in so saying I will say that a similar admonition applies to questions, the one I read now applies to answers, "Answers to questions should be a briaf as possible, should deal with ~~e matter ~aised,and should not provoke debate." Now, Mr. speaker, I will not say that every question asked on this side is perfection itself but I will say, Sir, that the answers h~ve been even less perfect then the questions. And what concerns me is that the Question Period, Sir, is turning into a debating period and not into a question period.

And I would suqqest that the point of order, if it has any merit at all, is eqUally applicable to all members of this House and I mean I am as much under the rubric of sin in this matter, I would submit, as is anybody. But tile fact:. rem~ins, Sir, the Question .?eriod is tu=ing into a debating period. There is nothing wrong with deba t:e, heaven knows, but that is not the purpose of Question Period.

The authorities make it crystal clear ~~d I would suggest, Sir, that nobody on ~~e government side should be the first to say a word and I would cite, and I will end on this, I would cite in support of that statement that nobody on the government side should object ~~e biblical adage that 'He among you who is without sin should be the first to cast a stone'. And there is nobody en the other side, Sir, in any position to cast any stones on this matter at all. MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER : (Simms) Pres ident of th e Counc il. To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. 722

March ll, 1980 Tape No. 275 so - 3 MR. W. MAI!SHALL: Mr. Speaker, just briefly, I dQ not want to qet intQ Scriptures a$ the hen. 9ent~eman thelie ·opposite clid a JIIQIIIt!llt age - perhaps we could call it into force here for our benefit. But if tb.e hen. gentleman was talkinq about the illlS11rers, you know, the answers can not pro-k~ debate.

There is no doubt about tb.at quotation in Beauchesne but the fact of tb.e matter is look, I am up on a point of order now with respect to a qll8Stion that has been asked. +£ the hen .• qen~eman objects to the manner in which questions have 'been answered or in vllich any debate is aaan&tinq from this side o.f the Rouse he is perfecUy at liberty to object, of course, but he has to qet up at the time that that statement is illade vllich he is objecting to. And I would submit to Your Hon.Our that the question before 723

~!arc:!: ll, 1980 Tape No. 276 ow - l ~~~. iJ. ~l'.RSH;\!.L: ~our Ho~our, rig~t now is t~e ~a~ner i~ w~ic:~ ~he hon. ge~tleman is frami~g his ~ues~~o~ ~~ic!: continuec along i~ exactly the same ve~n as the manner in ~hich the que stion was asked origi~ally and ~o which Your ~onour called the hon. mem~er to order. :~R. ::. :tos::a-:-s: To the ?OLnt of order, ~r . S?eaker. >E~. S!>EA!<ER (Simms) The hon . me~ber !or the Strait of 3elle :sle. )!R. E. ROBERTS: I assume Your Honour is following the age old ?rinciple of tit for ta t.a~d ~e ~ave had the tit and now we can ~ ave the tat. Mt. Speake : , tha - ;~R. S.

NEA.R'l: We woul d ~e be~~er of! having the ~uestion !'eriod. !1 R. E. ROBERTS: ~ agree complete: v :hat we would be be::er o: : having the ?uest1on ?eriod . nne in =~c:, t~ere is a ci:a:~or. i~ Baauches~e that :ny lear~ed f:::l.enc oppos:. ee might wan: to loo~ at. It. says, ':-l atters o: orcler shoal<! be decided at the encl of the Qu es~ion Period anc ~ot during i:' A~d t~a::: is a qoocl ;:ractice .! ·,..ould sa•f . sue I ~r. Speak~~' : Sl"Ol!' ....... a::l: co say ~~a: ~y ~o~. !~e:ne ~ as ~ot as~!r~ a :ues=l on, he ~as askin q a SU??: ~me~ ta~y ques ~ 1c~ .

T~e sup?le~e~:ary ~ues ~:o ~ was ear~ of :~e ~a~~ a~d woo! of e~e subsca~ce o~ a~ a~swe: giv9n :: ~y lear~e~ ~~~:~C's collea~u e, ~~e ;encl~~an :o~ Scl.O , ~he ~1~i~:ec ~! ~ ~~~s a~d ~~c::y ~ \:=. 3a rr :tl a~d :~ere~~re i~ is q~i:e ac?:o?: iate :o soea~ as : ~a'l~ . ! am grateful :o my friend :rom St. Joh n'., East (:l r. )!arz i:al l) :or :-t~s -;rat~~-:ious adv1ce. ! t-li.i ! t~ea: :: t Si:-, .11 !.":~ c;;-e sam e •ta!.•.le ! t..._roul: ;i·;~ ar:•:t Jra=~L~io\:s aCvic'e, !. :. :.s •..tc: =-~ :~ exac:l:t w~a~ or.e ~a ys :or :!:t. S?:::A;c::;~: Order. :>lease~ 72L.

:1arch 11, 1980 '!'ape ~o. 276 OW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): With respect to the ori9ina~ point of order raised ~y the hon . President of the Counc!l (~r. Marshall) I beli~ve I did direct t he hon. me·mber :or \h:~dsor - Buchar.s (~lr. Flight) to ask his question. I will con~ i ~ue to do that as soon as ! make one o~her ccm~en~, ~ 'nd chat is, with respect to the poincs raised by the hon. ~e~be: for the Strait of Belle Isle (M r.

Roberts) with respect to Question Period, answers and questions being rather len~~hyj rathe~ than take che time of the hon . membe~ s , Curing Qu estion Period at chis time 1 I wou ld l i ke to give some general comments on ic at comorrow 1 s 5ession. The ~on. memC,.e: Eo~ r,.;i:tCso~ - 3uc:Oans. :·lR . G . :'LIG:!'!: ~ =- Speak e r ~ i n a very s~or; pre~mbl ?

I ~ould say to che mi~!sce: t~ac t ~~ ba:i~~ !s ~~ 3uc!'lans, cen or fi:t2-en y ea..:-s SU?iJ~y, c.::,e :n;-.. r"" -e t is of=~~!)r~. mi:\ers i:-t 3uchan .s a=e losi:tq th-eir j obs and sta _nc . co go ou= of ~us~ness altoqet~~ = b~ next Auq~s~. u t"' •. -! I ·.,;c ::!.:i a-;·: :.~.; ~i~is:~~ to in:orm the sous~ i= ~e is aware t~ac ba=it~ will ~~ased be broug ~~ ~~to ?~oduc~!o~.

Will ~he~e ~~ a~ i:tCuscr:r ~. s-:a=lis::ad"? tlhat cio.es ~e i= :tcw -as :~l i:tis:e:: e: :~dusc:!al O evelcpme~c or ~i ~es and E~eray (Hr. 3a:r yl ~~ou: :~e ~oss ~~ il!~~ o ~ a procgss be£~~ 2s~ablis ~eci in 3~c~ a~s :~a~ ~o~ld ~i~2 c~e b a~ice :~at is ~~e~~ a~d ::ea:~ t~~ j0~5 ... '-.._- .. -·· ·Go- ·~-o·ill ~~me as a :.es ul t o:: .. !.- '1-::. i?-,;elc:' - . .a r::.?

A~~ ·.~~ al::-oc: ::o cet an •nnoucceme~c in chis ?rovi~c~ ~ha~ the~e will be a ~e~ in~us: = J ~aseC a:t che p:-oduc::.ion anC sale ~f :::a~::::! i:: :!~c~a::s as a res~l: of ~~e wark t~ac has ~ee~ ~o~e t~ i s p ast th:a g ~~ ~ ou r 'lea rs by ~he com?an~~s :hat ~e ~ as ~e~er~~d :o? ~::t . S?~;..K~R: !"!-le :t.o~. :ti:t.is -te: of 'tir:as z..;.C E. :1e~ q1·. 725 ~

~arch 11, 1980 Tape No. 276 D'i1 - 3 ~lR. L. 3.:\.RR~: ~-lr. Speaker, first of all I ~ould like to ask the han. member when he gets the oppor­ tunity to apologize for his initial reference to the Eact that the first discussions of the barite potential of Buchans occured while I was out of the Province. In fact, Mr. Speaker, if the hen. member would wish to check out this point,he would find that it was when I was Minister of Mines and Energy that I. in fact, brought to the attention of the officials of ASARCO the fact that they had a potential for barite - :1R. G. FLIGHT: ~R. SPEAKRR (Simms) !·!R. L.

BARRY: That makes it all the worse. Order, please! in the tailings which had been ignored, Hr. Speaker, by the company until I brought it to their attention that in light of the onshore exploration there was, in fact, a potential for a thriving, viable industry. ~r.

Speaker, my knowledge is that the company at Suchans is presently in negotiations with at ieast one international co~pany that is involved in the supplying of barite to offshore drilling rigs all around the world, t~at this is a very large company, that the ~egotiations are s~rious uegotia- tio~s and w~en I ~ave somet~ing further to announce to this hon. House I ·..rill, :-!r. Speake:::. ~~R. G. E'~IGHT: One further su;>_nlemt;;!nta::-y, ~!r. Soeake:::. ~1R. SPEAKE!?.: We have time £or one auick supplementar?- The hen. member for Windsor - Buchans. ~1?.. . G.

FLIGST: Could the minister i~dicate wh~t~er the companies concerned have asked ~it~ar this government or the fgderal qovernment for either research information or funding? Is there a possibility that ~REE have ~een asked to have some input or make some contribution towards qettin~ this industry off the around? And if so : what has been t~e ~eaction of his aove~~rnent ; 726 .:

~larch 11, 1980 Tape No. 276 ow - 4 ~R . G. F:.IG<!T: would he be aware of a~y DR ~~ possi~ilicies in helpLng t~ac ind ustry ge: off the g ~ounc ? mt. SPS.\KER (Simms) : !:nerqy . ~R. "-· 3ARRY: Th e hon. :Hni s::.e~ of tHnes a"d ~r. Speaker, this qove ~nment would ~e v e~ y sycpathetic to ass~scing in an y way :hac is ? ~ac tical, if in fac~ it is sho wn tha t such assis:~nce is necessary in order to make the ind~stry viable. To my know- ledge, ~r. Sp eak er, we hav e not had a re qu est for assistance - ~R. F:.IGHT : Fr om ORE :::? :-!R.

L. 3ARR'!: A~d ! am not aware chat there has ~een any re quescs gone to DR ~ E but it cou ld have ~it~- out being orought to my ~ tten tion, ~r. Spea ker. 9Ut I would say t~at our ?OSition,g ener all7 ,is that we li ke to oe s~own ~hat a~ industry neeCs ~ove~~men~ assis:a~ca in o~Ce ~ to ·be v1able ~efore :he qove : nmen~ •s assis:3nce, the eax­ ?ay~rs·dolla rs are o:fered. aut if it is, ~ r. Speake~ . l: it lS re~uested and shown as ~ecess ary in order to 727

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 277 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: get an industry started, <qe would be very sympathetic to any such proposal. MR. FLIGHT: given yet. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): They need some pressure that you have not Order, please! The time =or oral questions has expired. I am sure han. members would like to welcome to the galleries today a delegation from Birchy Bay, Mayor Otto Pope, and Councillors Canning, Mews and Mews. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! .PRESENTING REPORTS OF STAND -ING AND SPECIAL COMITTEES : MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated on Friday of last week that I would table a report,as soon as the maps became available, on the survey of the sports fishing in Labrador. MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: NOTICES OF MOTION: The han. Minis~er of Labour and Manpower . Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills, "An Act To .ll,rnend And Consolidate The z.aw Respecting Boilers, Pressure Vessels, .;nd Compressed Gas," and "An Act Respecting .ll,rnusemen': Rides." MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Public works. Y'.R. YOUNG : Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Ac t To Amend The Department Of Public Works And Services Act, 1973 With Respect To Government Printing." MR. SPEAKER: MR. SARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I giv~ notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Amending Agreement Entered Into Bet~een The Government And Burgee Fish Industries Limited And Others." 728

:.tarch 11, 1980 Tape No. 277 NM - 2 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. ~Y: Mr. Speaker, I presume it is all right to present a petition, is it? M..'!.. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. MR. NEARY: I have a petition, Mr. Speaker, that I wish to table and have it referred to the appropriate department to which it relates and it is in connection with a request from the people in the tiny community of Petites in LaPoile district. Petites, Mr. Speaker, as hon. members know, is an isolated community, you have to get there by boat. PRF.MIER PECKFORD : (Inaudible) there. MR.

NEARY : The Premier landed in a helicopter there I believe. PREMIER PECKFORD: And by boat in 1964. MR. NEARY: When I go I have to go in a boat from Habour Le Cou, on a longliner, to Petites·. PREMIER PECKFORD: M..'!.. NEARY: ?REMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME HON. ME1"..BERS: MR. !lEARY: I went there on a long~iner in 1963. Yes, and went there in 1979 in a helicopter . (Inaudible) . With Mr. cabot :.tartin in tow. (Inaudible). Oh, oh! And during tha~ visit, ~- Speaker, a promise was made to the people of Petites and it was made in 1975 and in 1972 by the t~en Tory candidate MR.

MORGAN: :-!F.. ~RY: MR. ROBERTS: :-!F.. NEARY: In '68 and '66. - that the people of Petites ••auld get - We would have kept it if we ~ad been in. - the people of Petites would get a water system. They have no drinking water in that community of Petites. As a matter of 729

March ll, 1980 Tape No. 277 NM - 3 ~- N"".::.AR":': fact , the Depart:nent of :1unicipal >.ffairs employed the services of Mr. Trepisca, I think it was - i\."1 !:iON. !1E..'IBER: ~ - )IEA.'l.'l: Te~ster. Terpscer or Trepista, to do a study, to ~rk ouc a plan for the implementation of a drinking ·H-ater system for Pec~~es. ~~e same as they have in taPo~le anc in Gr and Sr~ic. This pet~tion is signee by fifcy - t·~ residents or Petites, Mr.

Speaker. and th at is 1 as far as I know, eve_~ voter, eve~ resident over the age of nineteen years of age in the co~unity of ?etites The people on the Southwest corner of this Province, ~. Speaker, are ~eg~~~ng co ~!1eve that they are being discriminated against by this gove~ment for voting Liberal. : hope that is not the cas e, Mr. Speaker. but the feeling :s ~~ere. Ne saw recently ·Jh ere the Industrial Development Office tn Po~ aux Basques !lad t:o be shut down because the government cancelled its grant . '!'hey •.till not do any;:hir1g about t:.~e indus=ial ,ark '~ ?ort aux Basques.

They will not cons~Jct a new hosp1cal in Port a~x Basques - ~. S?""?.i<ZR. (Sl.lll:l!.S} : ;.!.~. !rr.A.'l.:!: people of ?etii:es. ~ . S?::AKER: Order, please! They '"'ill not give a water supply to tile Yes . ~he hon . ~e~ber should :onf~e hi3 sta temencs : think ,co the pr~yer of the petition. ~IR. llEA.".Y : !s it any 'A'Onder, l1r. Speake:, ::hat :he people feel t.hey are ::eing cisc::uninacec agai."lsc =or politicti reasons. ! ·.till ::ead ::he ::raye::- of ~~e petl.i:.!.on, Mr. Spea~er. ?robab!y cnac is cne bes~ ~ay ~ can ~et :ne ~essage across ~ hon . ~entlemen. 730

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 277 NM - 4 MR. NEARY: "t·le, the people of Petites, in the district of LaPoile, would like to present this petition requesting a water supply system for the residents of this community. we think the time of bringing water with buckets is over. we also feel 7 3 1

Mu-ch 11, 1980 T~pe 278 EC - l MR. S. NEARY: feel that we are equ&l residents to all others in the Province and should h~ve some sort of water system. We, the people of Petites, do not like the idea of our children goinq to a school th~t does not have a sanitary supply of water for sewerage and drinking within it, ill.one in our homes. When you have a group of children within a builciinq not having a sanibry water supply in this day and age, we think that is a b~d situation.

We, the undersigned members of the c:ommunity of Petites in the Province of Newfoundland, would like for you, as a govern111ent, to take this petition in qood faith and provide funds for a water supply system for this community." Now, Mr. Speaker, the prayer of that petition is self-explanatory, and I do hope now, Sir, that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Neil Windsor) or whatever department is involved - I think the local water committees and the water supply system still come under the Minister·of Municipal Affairs- will take this matter seriously, Sir .

It is a crying shame in this day and age when people have to go out in the middle of Winter - it is bad enough in the Summertime, but to have to go out in the Wintertime and lug water in buckets, I think that is te=ible in this day and aqe. And here we are here now on ~~e East Coast of this Province talking about oil booms and what have you and everybody expecting to wake up some morning with a Cadill~c out in his back yard, and ~~ere are the people down in Petites still carrying their water in buckets. Mr.

Speaker, I ask that ~~is petition be placed upon the table of the ~ouse and referred to the department to ~ich it relates. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Sir, I would like to support wholeheartedly ~~ plea from the member for LaPoile (Mr. Nea_~) for a decent drinking water system in the community of Petites. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, ':...~at every single member who represents a ru~al riding in this House can sympathize 732 -::

March 11, 1980 Tape 278 EC - 2 MR. F. WHITE: wi tl1 the people in Petites who do not have any water to drink - or water to drink, I suppose, but they are not sure of its quality and neither sure of its quantity. MR. S • NEARY : Right. MR. F. WHITE : Mr. Speaker, I have, for example, a delegation - I know I am not allowed to refer to another community when I am talking to t!1is petition, but I have a delegation l:lere today from Birchy Bay who are also looking for water. And there is a very serious situation there with water.

The bit of water that they did have was spoiled when a new road was put through some years ago and it became polluted with salt. So on behalf of the Birchy Bay town council and other places throughout Newfoundland, I am sure those people feel a part of the plight that the people in Petites feel, and Bir~~Y Bay in particular, !Iince the Premier made a commi t:lnent that that would be done, and I am sure that commitment will be kept this year. Once again, Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition brought in by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and I do hope that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Neil Windsor) gives some attention to it. I also hope,~. Speaker, I whole­ heartedly hope that when the government find out for sure that the oil is there, ~~at tlley borrow all the money they can get their hands on to put water services in this Province. SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : I would like to welcome to the galleries today , again on behalf of all hon. members, the !?resident, Mr. Tony John, and the Vice-President, Mr. Calvin White, of the Newfoundland Indian Government. SOME !iON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. !'.ary' s - The Capes. MR. D.

HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to stray away from the petition because I cannot get away with it like my good friend from LaPoile. 733

Marcil ll, 1980 Tape 278 EC - 3 MR. D. HANCOCK: I would like to rise and present a petition on behalf of the 520 voters of the COIIIIIIunities of RiverAead, St. Stephens, Peter's River And St. Shotts. I will just state the prayer of the petition. It says: "We, t;he people of Riverhead, St. Stephens, St. Shotts, are forwa;-dinq a petition to the House of Assembly on behaU of the ~ture colllllli ttees, c01111111.U1i ty counci-ls, al.l livestO:ck awners and people of our c0111111unities. We are requestill.<J that government own and operate the community pastures as it has done in previous years." AN BON.

MDmE:R,: Bear, hear! MR. D. IIANCOCK: su, the people in Til'/ district feel thjlt this is one of the thinqs that qOYerDJDent has dc)ne an adequate jcb with. They feel that their cattle ha'le been treated fairly. Well, some people ~em to think t;hat they cannOt pay mare for the service they are qettillq, b\lt the general feeling is that the g-overnment have done more than an adequate jcb and they would like to see it contin .ued in the future as it ltas been in the past. I ask that this petition be placed ·upon the table of the House 734

~azch 11. 1980 Tape N'o. 279 £L - 1 ~~ . 0 . SA."lCOCJ<: of the House of ~ssembly and directed to the department to which it relates. Thank you.

SCM.E • nON • M.EI'..aElt$ : Hear, hea r: ORDERS OF '!'liE DAY :1ot.ion, the hon. the t-<.in.ist:er of :!.ural, Agricultural and North e.rn Development: to introduce a bill, '"l\n >.ct To Alltend The Department of :!.ural ., .e.gricultural And North­ ern Develo;;:rnent i'.et: '', carried. (Sill 'NO. 22) On motion, Bill No. 22 read a firs~ time ordered read a second time on t:ororrow . ~t:ion, the hon. the Hinis t:er of Tourism, :tec reation and c-..U.tur·e to i ntroduce a bil l, "An Act: To Al'l­ and The His=ric Objects, Sites And Recor<is Act, 1973", carried. {Sill No. 23) On motion~ Bill No. 23 read a first time o rde=eC rea C. a s -econd time on totr.orrow. !'.otion, the hon. the ~r.ister of Fisheries tc introduce a bill, ".>~"'1 Ac~ To Amend The J; !.shing Indust::y .:l.dvisor:y Boa:r.d Act, 1975" , car-:::ied .. (Bill tlo. ill On uot:ion, Sill )IO. ll r ead a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. ~~ion, the ~on . the ~~~ister of E.Cucation co i:lt:roCuce a bill, '' An Ac~ To .cl.menC.

T~e ~·!emorial ~ nivers- i-:.y Ac:.•· , carried. (Sill No. 26) On mocion, Bill llo . 26 read l! first c~me c::de~ read a secpnd time on toii>Orrow. ~lo t ion, the hon . t.'te ~tiniste::- oi Zcucacion to i:ttrocu ce a bill, "rl-"'1 Act To .llriend The aay St . Georqe 735 .; !

:~arc.'l 11, 1980 Tape ~o. 279 £L - 2 Coll!lllll.nity College !let", ca..-ried. (Bill ~o. 5) . On motion, Bill No'. 5 read a first time ordered read a ~econd time on comorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of liealth to int:roduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The E:lnbalmers i\:ld E"'Ur.er­ al Direct ors Jl.ct, 1975", carri ed. (Eill No. 25) On motion, Sill No 25 read a first time ordezed read a second · t.i~re on tomorro<.·. ~Dtion, the hon . t.he Minister ¢f Cons u11:er Jl.f£a.l.rs and Environment t.o i.nttoduce a bill, " An ;>.ct To Repeal The Income Tax Discounters Act", cazried. (Bill l!o. 4) On mo"t.ion, Sill ~lo. 4 read a first time ordered read a second ti:l'e on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the ML~ster of Jest ice to inttoduce a bill, •• An Ac"t. To Jl.mend The District Cour"t.

Ac"t., 1976". carried . (Sill llo . 7 ) On motion, Bill No. 7 r ead a first ti~e ordered read a second ti~e on tomorro~. MO't.ion, che hon . 1:he !·ti..niS-~e~ of ?inance to in=oduce a bill , " ~.n Aet: ReS?eCting the G i3rnis~ment Against '!'he ii.emune:ation of ?ul:;lic Offi cials '', carried . ( Bill :-10 . 3l. On motio n, Sill :-lo. 3 read a :irst t.i~e ordered read a second ti~e o n torro rrcw. 736 ;. '

:.larch 1.1,1980 Tape No. 280 AH -1 Motion, ~he hon. the :.linis~er of Finance ~o introduce a oill,"An Ac~ To .>.mend The Members O f ::he House Of Assembly (RetirJ.,>)g Allowance

s) Ac~." carried. (Sill No. 24) On motion, Bi ll No. 24 read a firs~ time ordered read a sec ond time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Ministe r of Consum er Af fairs and Envi ronm en~ co int roduc e a bill, "An Act Respecting The Drillin g Of Water Wells And The Conse rvat ion And Ose Of Ground Wacer, car ri ed. (Bill No. 28) On mo~ion, Bill No. 28 read a !i rst time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. :1otion , the hon . the :1inister of Consume r .>.f =a l.rs and Environment to l~troduce a ~l.ll, "An Act To Amend The Depar~ment Of Consume r Af~a irs And Snvironmenc Act, 1973," carried . (Sill No. 27} On motion, !31.11 No. 27 read a first time ordered read a sec ond t~me on tomorrow. MR. S?~AKER (Sl~S ) : O rder l.

Addr~ss in Reply . The hoo. memb er for Grand Sank. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, he a: : MR. THOMS: I only ha'le fift~en minut~s tef : so i N~!l ~o~ take ~P ~~o ~uc~ o~ 1~. Mr. ;;peaker, Z ::hl. nk : sa1.d on ~riday all that I have co say for the momer.c anyway about che administration o~ )uscice ir. th~s P ~ ovir.c e. There are a =e~ other matters ~ha: I wo~l~ l~xe co ;e: on to. : chin~ it ~s becoming ~ul.te e?~denc. qu~te clear and suite obvious cbe game plan !rom the other s1da of the House, JUSt exac~ly whac their game plan ls. Wa saw on F~Lday where - !nd ~~ is a sa~ 737

March 11,1980 Tape No. 280 AH-2 Mr. Thoms: sad commentary when, I, as a member of this House or any other memner of the House,as my friend from the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) did,get up and give what he considered to be the correct legal position as far as the offshore oil and gas is concerned, which by the way - and I am no constitutional lawyer, that I will admit, but it is a position with which I wholeheartedly agree 1 738

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 281 NM - 1 HR. THOMS: from the study that ~ave bee~ able to make of the legal ramifications in connection with oil and gas. But for the moment I will leave the oil and gas because I am concerned when we hear somebody from the other side of the House, albeit he was forced to withdraw the remark, call some­ body else on this side of the House a traitor. And that is the game plan. That is obviously the game plan of this present administration. Everybody over there is a good Newfoundlander.

Everybody on this side of the House is not, somehow or other come up short of being good Newfoundlanders. Now I am not going to stand on my feet and say that I am a good Newfoundlander. I believe that,certainly, and the people of my district know that I am a Newfoundlander, know that I was born, bred, dragged up in the outports of this Province. I am not going to get up here and apologize for it. But neither am I going to sit in this House and be called a traitor, and a Jud~s Iscariot.

Just for the sake of those wh~ were not listening when that particular member, and you saw shades of it coming out when the President of the Council spoke first in this debate, you saw shades of it 1 you saw shades of it when the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) spoke in this debate, that somehow or other- and this is the game plan to make e'Terybody on this side of the House something less than Newfoundlanders . I will never apolog ize for being a Canadian, and I will never apologize for being a tlewfoundlander. SOME HON. MEMBERS: near, hear! MR.

THOMS: But just listen to what is coming from the government side. ~ow, this is after calling us traitors and saying that ·,;e were being treacherous, referring to my friend frcm +:!'le Strai c of Bel le Is le (Mr. Rober ts) . "I think :::-.at their ?Osition is a most llnacceptable one", and I am quoting Hansard here, "I hesitate to use the word Judas Iscariot but th is keeps popping in to my mind , t hir ty pieces 739

~!arch ll, 19SO Tape No. 281 GH-2 MR. 'mOMS: of silver". Even the suggest~on of hanging comes to ~d. ~ve~ ~e sugges~ion of hanging =omes to ~~d. I mean, what a sad, sad commem:ary when a member on this side of the House can stand on his feet: and disag ree wit.h a legal opinion from the President of the Council (t1r. l'.arshall) wi t:hout being called a traitor, a Judas rscariot and, presumably, somebody ~>ito deserves hanging. '!'hat is what: happened 1.n chis Eouse on Friday. You know, you -:~versimpli!"y it.

The ?remier gees up in the House of ?.ssembly and he says, "There is no que~ion al:lout it, our position is very simple, !ole own, ••-e control the offsho re oil and gas ." 'ile believe that, too. The LiMral ?arty of this ?rovi .!'lCe, for this lase ten, fi!"teen yea=s. has been saying ~~t ~ewfo~~dland owns the offshore resources, owns it . 3ut, look, let me ac;a~o quote from Hansard of yes"t:ercay when the ?remier said, ·.rhen we were talking about t:he landlocked countries claizning some ownership in che offshore oil and gas, ~e -:-e is ~;e P:!"e.mier' s exact. comme ,nt. Se says, ..

Some of :hese l.acd - locked and othe r.rise somewhat ~p~illed people of che ~rld who are suddenly afT:er a resource •.rhich, first. of all, we do not: know if .,e o~oon". Tha't: is exact . 'l'her~ it is in aansar:l. · Those are the ?remier's ·.-ords. ro<iay he qecs up and says. "Oh, "-'e own it. It is ours ." I believe it :.s ours, t-oo.. ! b-elieve r,,;e own it:, but : also believe t.hac 1~ :s a.n Dve:- si:npl.:.fica~ion :.o just say 740 .:. ~ ~

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 282 D~l - l MR. L. THOMS: that we own it. We have a legal right to what is out there, Whatever is out there~ we have a legal right to it. No~ let us proceed on that basis, let us not in this House have a situation like we saw Saturday or I believe that is going to backfire on the members on the other side of the Hause if it continues, if they continue trying to give the picture 1 in this Province, that the Liberal Party, that members on this side of the House are somewhat less than Newfoundlanders. We are not less than Newfoundlanders.

But I can tell you somethi~g; I am afraid and I am deeply afraid and I am genuinely concerned-and this does not apply to all members on the other side of the House - that everybody may not be a good Canadian. That may be quite true. I think we are getting indications of that. we got an indication of that in a speech by the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) We got a clear indication, I think, from the speech by the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) whose anti­ confederacy has been known far and wide for the last thirty years.

And I am genuinely concerned with the separatist leanings in the gover~ment of this Province and the Pro- gressive Conservative members of this House. You get it - read the ar~i=le in Insight ~rhere cur Premier was inter- viewed. Every now and then you stop and say, 'By God, there is a separatist leaning'.

I can remember rea~i~g a letter in the paper, the Evening Teleqram,a few days ago,which stated that if we had a vote on whether to stay in Confederation or not only 5 per cent of the people·of this Province would vote to stay in Confederation , I think you can take that and turn it around,I think you would find that 95 per cent of the people of t~is Province would vote to stay in Confederation. But I do not like that feelinq that I am getting from some members of this government, that they would just as soon pluck Newfoundland, 7 4 1

).larch 11, 1980 'I'ape No. 282 ow - 2 ~~~. :. • T~O~!S: simply because it has cot oil and gas in a.!>undance, pluck it out of Con!ederatl.on and we go our own ·.-ay. I do not think that is true of the member for Humber Valley (~r. House) or Humber ~est (Hr. Baird) or Fortune - Hermitage (M r. Stewart)-! can go :hrough 1 but you see it in t~is nationalistic feelin~ that you get - SOQetimes from the Premier ~ o! this ?rovi~ce an~ always !rom cbe President of the Council (~r. Marshall) an~ the member Eor St. John's Nort~ (!-lr. Carter).

They woul d take this ?rovince out of Confederation like that: ~nd would love it: They would like nothing better: But if you ever want to see a Confede~ation ~attle just try it! No w, Mr. Speaker, whe n ~r. ~=~deau spoke be!ore the st ude nts at ~ emorial ~nive r sity and there is no ioubt about it that he jammed them into t~at building, there wer e a lot of students there. I was 742 ..: ::

March ll, 1980 Tape 283 EC - l MR. L. THOMS: extremely disappointed, Mr. Speaker , extremely disappointed in that rally. I was not disappointed in Mr. Tr')ldeau, I Willi not disappointed in the position that he gave on offshore oil and gas, a position that I fully support- fully support. ~·CARTER: MR. L. THOMS: you first what disappointed me. MR. J. CARrER: A 'give-it-all-away' policy. Mr. Trudeau's? I would like to tell Give it all away. MR. L. THOMS: Why does not the !IUIIDber for st. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) read what Mr. Trudeau had to say at that rally? MR. J. CARTER: I heard him. MR. L.

THOMS: You heard him - you heard nothing. The Premier's executive assistant who went there to heckle reported incorrectly to you, as he would. Here is the full text of what Mr. Trudeau had to say at that particular rally. MR. J. CARTER: Send it over. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker," there is one thing that really disappointed me. Mr. Trudeau spoke for some ten or fifteen minutes on the fisheries in this Province. What did you get from a certain element at that rally? - 'Man cannot live by cod alone.' They sneered.

There was a certain group led by the Premier's executive assistant who sneered at the cod fishery in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: The fishery is dead. MR. L. THOMS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can tell you one thing, no matter how much oil and gas is 200 miles or 400 miles off from St. John's , the people of Grand Bank do live by cod alone. They are one hundred per cent either directly or indirectly dependent on the fishery. Burgee - Bay d'Espoir is the same way, Fortune - Hermitage is the same way.

And here we had Newfoundlanders, I am ashamed to say, attending that rally - and it is irrelevant to me, it could have been Mr. Clark speaking about the fisheries - and all they could think about, their whole mentality is oil and gas. 'To hell with the fisheries! We do not need the fisheries, we have the oil and gas out there. ' 743 ,:

March ll, 1980 Tape 283 EC - 2 MR. t.. THOMS: Now, what was Mr. Trudeau's position? I am not going to go into the legal ramifications. Mr. Speaker, you know, as I sit here and as I have been listening to the President of the Council (Mr. w. .Marshall) and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) and my friend from t.aPoile (Mr. Neary) and the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. Roberts l , I was thinking to myself, What a pity you &re not a judge, a real honest-to-goodness Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada! We could have had all this settled.

We have heard the arguments back and forth, the adversary system. We could then get a judgement from Your Honour. We would have it all settled. There is a question of ownership, there is no doubt about that, or we would not be asking, we would not be debating it. The Premier would not be getting up and saying, 'a resource which we do not know if we own' • I'!R. SPEAKER (Butt) : has expired. M..."l.. t. • THOMS : MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : l!R. t.. THOMS : Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time If I can just take a second to clue up? By leave? By leave. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, very simply put, Mr.

Trudeau's position is this: If Newfound~a.nd owns its offshore resources there is no problem - it owns it, it controls it, that is it; it is finished. The question of ownership must be decided, and there is a question. The Premier says there is the question -yesterday, of course, he indicated- maybe it was a slip when he said, 'We do not even know if we own our own resources.' 744

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 284 so - l MR. L. THOMS: But if we own it there are no problems. But then he says , "If, under the Constitution you do not own the resource , then we will 9Uarantee you 100 per c:ent the maximum benefits from the oil and gas until you become a have province". And we only have three have provinces in Canada - Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta. AN HON. MEMBER: Four, is it not? MR. L. THOMS : No, just three as I understand it. It could be four, Saskatchewan could be one now, I am not quite sure. I know we have at least these three.

"When Newfoundland becomes a have province then we will expect you to share your good fortunes with the rest of canada." That is a position that I can support and I can be proud of it and I will continue to support that position. Mr. Trudeau also said at t."l.at rally that as far as the court case is concerned to determine the ownership, let us go in, we will not contest it~ It is not a contested case it is a reference, that is all. It is not a contested case. He said that he would not contest it. 'It would be an uncontested case' were his words. Now 1 that is a position that he has taken.

If he goes back on t."l.at then he will hear from me, at least he will hear froC\ one member of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland.If he goes back on that position one jot chen he will hear froC\ me. But it is a position that I can support, it is a position that I do ~ot think I deserve to be called a traitor for. It is not a position that I deserve to be called a Judas Iscariot for and it is not a position that I certainly would not deserve hanging fo~ as was suggested on Friday. !o!r. Speaker, very siCIPlY put chat is Mr.

Trudeau's position, it is the federal/Liberal ~osition, M~·ing said that,as I said earlier, I believe that we have got a legal right to the offshore oil and gas and I think we should go ahead and have that right confirmed. In the meantime, we have Mr. Trudeau's undertaking,in case we do not own it, that is all. And he 745 = ~

~rch ll, 1980 Tape No. 284 so - 2 MR. L. THOMS: did say at that rally that there were an awful lot of the constitutional experts who agreed with Newfoundland 1 that Newfoundland does, in fact, own the offshore oil and gas. Mr. Speaker, I thank the House's indul<1=c:e, running overtillle, and I u suze we will heaz much more about this subject be~re-a.lthough I wi$h we would get ahead with doing whate"Ver has got to be do~.

You ~IIOW, there are an awful lot of problems in this Province tbilt are being ignored while we are waiting for the oil and gas to CC1III!! ashore,. either here or soaewhere else; Th .ank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOMe RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAX!R: (Butt) Islands. MR. L. WOODROW: Hear, hear. The hon. member for the Bay of Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to con ·qratulate the hen. llle11lber for Grand Banlc: (Mr. L. Thoms) for giving such a eloquent speech.

By the SallE token,. if there is any gaae plan to downgrade or to call the Opposi~on traitors or no good Newfoundlanders, I certainly know nothing about it. And I would like f.or these things to be remo"Ved from this hen. House as quickly as possible. I feel, in fact, we are all good Newfoundlanders and,hopefully,all good Canadians as well. In the me ·antime , Mr. Speaker , I would like to start my address by congratulating the membe ·r for Burqeo "" Bay d'Espoir (Mr. H. Andrews)~· He is not in the House at the 1110111ent but he is around souewhere I assume. And also, 746

March 11, 1980 Tape 8o. 285 EL - l MR. L. WOODROW: I would like to congratulate the ...:.. ~ newly appointed Minister of Fisheries(Mr.Morgan), the Minister of Lands and Forests(~~.Power), the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture !MZ. Dawe). I am sure that each will find his respect- ive portfolio to l::e both a challenging and richly rewarding exper- ience. I was particularly delighted that my colleague for the District of St. George's (Mr.

Dawe) received the Tourism portfolio , as there is a tremedndous potential in the tourist ~ field throughout the West Coast and with his thorough knowledge of ! the region, I am hopeful that the minister will take a special int- erest in the needs and development of the West Coast of the Province. I am also ple.;~seo, ~1r.

Speaker, to have the hon. the Leader of the Oppositio~ . he is not i~ his seat at t11e ITJOI!iefi .'C- with us again Curir.~ t':)_s sessicP . of the leqislature ~ I noted his opening rerr.ark~ on the Throne Speech with great int- erest and ~elcorned his comments on his party's desire and willing- ness to coo~erate fully, where possible, with the qovernment legis- lation to be brought before this House for ou~ consioeration. With this in mind, I am looking forward to a producti 'le session in b1.e best interests of our Province and people, ~n fact, I ~r.ink, Mr.

Sfeaker, to date things have be~n going fairly good. un fortunately it got a little rouq;-, the past couple of days when the hon. Leader of the Opr~sition was out of this Mouse. ! dread to think what is goinq to happen if he should decide to retire early and naturally a new leader would take his place. ~lr. Speaker, I would be rerr.iss if I did n0~ - ~ - :i~r leader and Premier who has worked tirelessly to effectively de•relop and protect the interest of our P~vince. SO~IE HON • !!IE:<!BERS : Hear, hear! MR. L. \vOODROW: I feel that ,.,hat the Premier is doing is not for political reasons.

I feel that he is speaking from the heart. He is obsessed with a love for ~ewfoundland first 747

~arc!\ ll, 1 ~ s o Tape ~o. 285 "~ -2 MR. L. WOODROW: of all and ies people and he is trying to co his U!:l!IOSt: co ~et t.lte best for New£oundland as !NOI.Ild any other Premier. ':'he ?realier of Alberta, che Premier of Quebec, the Premier of Onea::io. they are all tr-ting co gee the best for t.heir ?:r:ovinces and they have t.o be congratulated :or acting in a ~~nner like that.. ~r. Speaker, I can say wichout exaggeration - the Prer.u.er has ji.ISt arn. ved - t.'"lac wherever one goes throughout ~l,is ?rovince, evertone echoes the same sentiments about the bon.

Premier, they say he is the one ~n to make ~ewfoundland and Labrador a have ProVl.nce '"it!lln the Canadian !rameworl<. In !act, I had a visit just a co~le of days ago from a lady from ?lacentia and she said the very words , •· The Premier has tile makings of a great man". I think al l of us - ! am sure we all are, on t..'lis side of t.J::e Eouse. giving ni:n our full anc coll\pleee sapport. If t..'lere are any doubts on the oppos1te side l am sure these doubts will be dismissec in due course. I am also. :-t:r.

Speaker. ;:~ea.sec 'iiich t:he covernme:-~;; · s continu4~9 policy a:o :,.Old Cabinet l!'ee:.inqs a var!.ous centres t:h..-ouqhouc che Province . And I was pa_~icularly pleased wich c~e ~esc recenc meecin~ held at Corner 3rook ~r~ch ce:rt:ainly was a success. 748

!o'.arch ll, 1980 Tape 286 EC - l MR. L. l«JJDRCW: Mr. Speaker, to shew the interest of people in the Bay of Islands district, they had eighteen briefs presented, ~d I feel sure that each brief, wherever it came from, will be given sympathetic hearing. Now, Mr. Speaker, rather than dwell at length on the Bay of Isl.nds district, which I feel has been treated fairly since 1972, I would like to delve more deeply into the important initiatives and matters of interest raised in the Throne Speech, such as the continuing offshore oil and gas exploration off our coast and the Northern cod stock issue.

I may not be al:lle to use the - not exactly the flow~, but the legal language that our good friend from Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms) used, but I assume, perhaps, when some of our lawyers get up they will prceal:lly be al:lle to answer him better than I can. Mr. Speaker, the fishing industry is today the single most important industry in the Province. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Hear ,• hear! MR.. L. WOODROW: This, Sir, was brought out yesterday. I had to admire the hen. the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) when he spoke so eloquently about the fisheries in his speech on ~e Environment Act, ~t simply because of its direct contribution to our economy but also because of its social, historical and cultural values embodied in our people. The development and protection of our Nor~ern cod stock is vital, ~~erefore, to the future survival and growth of ~~e many communities that dot our rugged coastline, communities that depend on the fishery for their lifeblood.

Now, I was counting up yesterday and I think we have thirty-four rural districts in ~~is Province and in all those rural districts, either directly or indirectly , ~~ey are in some way involved with the fisheries. So therefore, ~~e fishery then, is certainly very important. I am ~~erefore very encouraged by our government's firm stand on the Northern cod stock issue and the 749

March ll' 1980 Tape 286 EC - 2 MR. L. IIOODRDW: reaffirmation in the Throne Speech that the fisheries are the baelcbc;me of our economy and society and will re,main the major component of any permanent solution to our economic probl11111s. I beli _eve, Mr, Speaker, just getting ba~ to the Premier once again, we have to be fi.rm, we have to mean what we s·ay. And if the Premier qets up and s·hakes his arms , he 11teans , by God, be means , 'I a111 :rold on what I a111 sayinq!

I mean what I say! ' And I think if all of us 1010uld take that attit _ude perhaps in our present positicoa, we 'IIIOuld be a lot more meaxli.nqful to the people who send us to this han. Rouse of Assembly. This basic firm principle will assure the long-term futllre of rural NeWfoundland, which fonns the very fabric of our Province. Mr.

Speaker, colltinq to the oil, as our Province moves even closer to an offshore petroleum industry becominq a reality - and,in fact, it is almost incredible; who would ever say ten or fifteen years ago that ve would be on the verge now of an oil discovery7 I'll fact, at the present time we can almost feel it flowing to our shores • our 750 ~ " .-

~tar<:h 11, 1980 '!'ape No . 287 lB-1 H~. l'iOOC~OI~ : People are looking ;nor-a than ever before ·.tith opti:nism to a br~ghc, secure future and thanks be to God. We have been in ~he do ldr ums, we have been a hav e not Provin<:e long enough. And 1 hopefully. scartiog off now as we are in the 1980 ' s , in another de<:ade, I feel s~re that: if we are not already, then we will <:ercain!y be on the way to being a hav e ?rovin<:e. Fears hav e also b een expressed that a :'ull-scale petroleum industry "'il l cause seri ous. social upheaval . Then as th e famous Irish writer, w.a .

Yeats put = ic, "A terrible beau ·ty is born"_ Mr. Speaker, o u r government bas i~dicat.ed to all parties t hat this will not be the case. The resources will be develope~ in concert with the fishery Eor Ne•.tfoundland by ~e•.,.fcundlancers ·.there possible. I:'l fac:.: . I c ertainl y again , admire and g6 along with the Premier on :he stand he cook towa rd s employing Newfoundlanders. rc '"as kind o~ rat~er unior~unace hhen he was on Cross Coun~~7 Chec~up "n Sunciay ~.ighc <:hac the three ?eople ·..rho cisagreed 10ere ~e·.t::ounclancers. :.1::<. ~IORG~.

N : ~usc be Liberals. !-!!\. .. 'tiOODRm~ : Absolut.'!ly. !n fact o ·r:a ·,o~as r :tm sure~ On.e '"as a g ent leman •.th<> is a dye<! in 1:he otoc :. L~beral up arounc ~he ?ort Saunders area as my good :riend he is ~o~ here - from ~hat area ~n o~s . So really r :hin~ ~ hac aching l!k e tha~,1t was ~lmosc incr edible, t.o say Ch: l:asc, ic was sickening. Oil companies have come to rea:. ize b y necessity chat our way of 11:e will not be compromise-C.

Z do not chink chis is going to be easy. ~n ~ac~ 1 the pac~ 3Dd manne~ o ~ otf~ho:e developmenc is mo~e impor~ant ~o ~his gover~men~ ~han the face cha~ dev~!oQmenc r~sh~s ahead a3 was the case in Scoclan~. 751

~arch 1 ~ __ , 1980 Tape No. 287 !3-2 ~~~. WOOD~OW: Mr. Speaker, I would like now , fi rse of 311 , to continue on the oil. In ehe weeks and .· mone~s ahead we will concinue eo plan responsibly cowards the ~ay when t~e !irse oarrel of oil is landed on our shore. Havinq said this,! would hope that members opposite will become involved and ind~c a ee co the 9eople of chis Province exactly where chey stand on che all impcrtanc quesc2on of offshore ownership. Mr. Trudeau ,reqardless of whac :he hon. me~ber for Grand 3ank (~r.

Thoms) has said wa s very evasive on chis when questioned ac Memorial University durin; the brief campaign visi: . I Eeel cn ac members opposite have been equally evas~ve . ~low, Mr. Speaker, ! ·.o~ould like :o say a little aboue 3owa:ers and ehe bucworm and :~e like . And I am very happy to be able to say at the presen: time chat 3owaters are qoinq ahead with a planned expansi9n 1 Sl lS ~illion over a five year plan. This ::eal:y speaks well for che Nest Coasc of the ?rovince ar.d ic 3lso shows c~ey ~ust 752

March 11, 1980 Tape 288 MB - 1 MR. L. WOODRON: be in agreement with the govern- ment's position on the budworm. Living in a district where seventy-five per cent of the population -is either directly or indirectly involved with the Bowater Paper Mill in Corner Brook 1I am very concerned with the Province's fo~~st resource and the serious problem of the spruce budworm infestation. Mr.

Speaker, earlier in January my colleagues the Minister of Education (Ms.Verge) and che member for Humber West (Mr. 3-J.ir.i), present in the chair, and I, met_ with officials of Bowaters in Corner Brook and needless to say the picture painted at the time was a dismal and a frighteni~g one. lvh i le I do nat doubt the authenticity of the statistical information raised,the picture was simply the paper side of the spruce budworm problem.

Now, on January 2 1980, the following appeared in the editorial of the Western Star concerning the budworm; "The companies ~laim that the insect threatens the newsprint industry in thg Province and it must be check:d. There is no doubt chat the budworm is des~roying thousands of square miles of pri~e wood, ~ut nobody is sure if t~e spraying really works and if it is wort~ t~~ =~s~: ~~~~ ~edi=al ~x~erts cla~~ go with the spray. P ... nd finall~r :'~e government is in a dilem~a, they a=c damned if t~ey Go and they are damned if they do not." That is w~at :h~ edi~orial sai·C:.

Mr.Speaker, I was.there~ore, not sur~rised that the companies at Corner Brook and the paper companies throucrnout the Province were upset with the decision not to undertake a sp~ay programme dur~ng the corning summer. r ~new w~en i~ took so long at the Ca~inet meeting to put the final to~ches on the decision that the Premier wanted to ~xami~e fully al! details sur~ounding the spruce budwo=m issue befo~e ma~~nq a defi~itive statement on the spray progra~me. ~·!r.

S9eaker, it is ~y firm belief thac the decision not to 3?=ay t~is yea~ ·,..ras a v=.r1 responsi~l:: and cor=ec~ one ~ gi'\·e:-;. t:,.e lone:-~-==:-:-. 753 :

:1arc:~ ll. 1980 Tape 288 :·19 - 2 :·!~. L. WOOORO~I: unknown effects en our vegetation, wildlife and people. I welcome the establish- ment of a royal c:ommission,as it will provide invaluable in!or3a:ion and recommendations aimed at long-ter~ solutions for the for est iadustr7. A number of areas , inc:ludi~g the via~ili::y c! an e:t:enced spray ?rogr~~me 1 tbis is of major i~portance to the Pro vin ce , es?ec:ially to the West Coast , and I look forw ard =~ a prod uctive commission. ~~. 0. :!OLi."'T':': Concernina (inaudible) ~R. t.. t•oooaow: Well, Mr .

Speaker, I think the bon. ~ember :rom ·~uri~ (~r. ~ollet:) can deter~ine my ?Osition by ~hat ! have already saic . !-I!L D . HOLLETT: ::o <;et. it. :-:R . :.. riOODROW: you very ~uch. I do not. believe you are qoinq That woul~ be - Very good, ~har.k •:1r. S9eaker, I ,.·ould liite to say ju st a :ew ?Oints about :he district.. The:g a:e a :ew 2a~ t e:a I ~ou ld lL~e to attend :o . ~ust one o: ~he ~~i~cs, the hon . member for LaPoile (~r .

Neary) was saying ~c~ a1 ~~a: ~~e ~ov~~~ ~e~c looked a!:e: ?.C . ~is ~= ~= =s on!y . ~~: ! ~~11 :ell you ~hat ~a?p~nec i~ ~ine. . \ 'N!:i le ~a~·< :ha q ov~r~~e~c t~ok a tracco~. and : am not say~~c t h~v CiC anyc~~~g ·.-~ rcn q. ~ :'lev 1;0ok. a Sl"r:··-- 1 .... ~ .. ~=""'"" mv discr:.cc. a.~C S!!::t: i-: C:cw~ to t~e hon .. ~e~~er :or !aale R~ver 's Ciscri:: (~lr. ~ .:.sccck ). !-1R. NEARY: That is ~here all : ~e sno~:lo~s are this :·Ji!'lte=. :•I!L L . IIOO::l?.OVI: That is ~ioht, yes. So you can seg ~n my mi~d :here is cer~ainly no Cis~inc~1o n 754 -' = .·

~larch U, 1980 Tape ~o. 289 GH -1 :1!l. . I•OODR Ot-1: House by '"h et:her it. is a Lib er al or a PC dist.rict, a.-:d I o:.'U.nl< ::.'lat is a good tili.'lg. :-lo doubt. c."Jat is o:.'Je -way it shou~d be. ~ ~. HOLLETT : Is ei~er one of you r friends out t.here (inaudible) . ~8 . WC<>DROW: Did either of ~y fri~'lcs do what? :-!R. HOLLETT: c:naudible) one of :::he~ subcon:::raccs. :l.!L t-IOODROI'/: Well, ! have no rich friends like the non. :nembe r probably has eown A..rour.ci Gra .nd 3anl<. My ~riends are like the hon. member from Lapoile 's, I go along with the humb le.

I c.~~ we have a lot. in common. ?!l.E:-ti=:R ?'::CXFORO: The toiling masses. ~ . WOODROW: 3elieve it: - the toiling masses, right: . :om • NE>..RY : '!'hank you . ~~. \iOOOROiv: Yes, •1e--y geed . :-lov, Y~. Speaker, sp~~inq of snowclearing, you know, t.hero is ?robably no other plac e ~. F.O!.LET'!': Just wait unt4 the :niniscer comes ~ck, he ·~ll lee us ~ow. ~!R . ~·iOOROROI•: F!..,e, vecy qood. I do not say, ctt. Speaker, =here is any o~~ er place in the ?rovince where 'tie qet: :r.ore snou ::ha:'l on t.he Wes=n enc o= the ?rovince and Along up t:he Norcheast: Co ast: and so on.

So ~.is year, !..n :;act, li: A'as probC~y ~~se :-ha!'l a~y ocher year. ~t see::ts to be qe-:ti:~g a bit: ~YCrse each year or so, !>t:t. I feel ;:hac t:he gove:-mne:1t: has cone •..-J- 21: they ::oulc. ?e?p!e , ar.d ! suppose you co not: blame ::.'te:n, ':hey •.<an': inst:ant: action like the i:1st:anr. por::idqe o.-e ha ve once ::1 awhlle. ::t ::::~e ole c<tys we '.lsec :;., boil ::he porridge.

It ~u~d ta.lte a.."'ouc a hal= hour :::o cook it on the s::~ve. ~l.~. lEARY: T!'le ~see: sa:·s tha:: :~is _:s -:he •urst: Ninter ~e have had in 25 years . ~es the hon. ~ember agree ~itr. t...~A~'? :.2. . :.;rooo o.o•;: Lock~ng back , ~ell , : ~~~d think that: it ~s been a ·re~! bad 11L~ c.e:-. 755

~larch ll, 1980 Tape No. 289 GH-2 )!R. NEARY: It is not even the worst Winter we had in the last ten years, let alone 25 years, according to the weather office. They said - MR. WOODROW: Perhaps not over here on the East Coast, that is true, you know. MR. NE.'\RY: Everywhere in Newfoundland, it was all over Newfoundland. MR. WOODROW: Yes. MR. HOLLETT: (Inaudible) hon. member (inaudible). MR. WOODROW: In any case I feel sure that perhaps the worst has gone now. 1-'e will have to have probably St. Paddy's Brush - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) good Tory, boy. MR.

WOODROW: - I suppose, but I hope the worst has gone and we have gocten over the hump. That is the main thing. Mr. Speaker, I said in the beginning that I am •Tery happy and I say this again, I am very happy with •,;hat took place in my district "since 1972. I would like to say again before 1972, speaking of the Nor~~ Shore of the Bay of Islands, they had over there the Ballum Bridge ~~d they had a little road over there, not much road at all, but in any case, since that time, it is a new North Shore altogether. There is water and sewer in almost, practically speaking, every community over there.

I am not saying it is completed, but what I am saying is that there is a good start on it and I hope that it will continue, I might say, within the boundaries of reason. )o!R • :-lE .ll. il.Y : MR. WOODROW: MR. HOLLETT: ~R. WOODROW: What happened at (inaudible)? I beg your pardon? (Inaudible) government department. Getting ready for it, everybody is ready. My God, after all, look what they have? People, in fact, do not expecc goverrJment to give everything for nothing. These people appreciate water and sewer. I wish we had had it when we were growing up. MR. AYLWAPD: Back in the Liberal days. MR.

WOODROW: I also, Mr. Speaker, want to bring to the attention of the han. ~inister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) - he is probably listening outside somewhere - that ~he 756

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 289 GH-3 MR. WOODROW: road on both sides of the bay, the road leading to Lark Harbour and the road leading to Cox's Cove - I am very glad I am _;. ~ g.etting the attention of the hen. members, I think I must be touching a .· point and I am delighted with it - it is badly in need of recapping, and I hope that when he sits down with his officials - he probably has already- well 1 when he starts -:: ! 757

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 290 SD - 1 MR. L. WOODilOW: talking about paving and recapping he will think about the Bay of Islands district. And also, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the b.on. Minister of Tourism, Recreation and CUlture (Mr. R. Oawe)-I am hoping that this year we will be successful in getting an ice plant in the arena over at Cox's Cove. That is a very - MR. S. !lEARY All you have to do is take the plant out of Dunphy's fish meal. plant at (inaudible) and put it in the arena. MR. L. WOODROW: Any advice - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. L. WOODROW: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.. L. WOODROW: Well, that is a possibility.

That is a red herring. Yes, I know that. Oh, oh! Any advice is qreatly accepted. Well, I think I know the hon. member AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) green. MR. L. WOODROW: In any case I hope thatwe will see thia a reality because the skating, hockey - it is a very popular hobby, a very popular rink or stadium as the hon. member from Humber west (Mr. Baird) knows. If he was not over there at least his children were over there playing hockey and the like.

It is veri popular now and,i~ fact.people from both sides of the bay, at least from Corner Brook right down to Cox's Cove, they are rea.l.ly using the ice surface and it certainly is needed, the ice plant is needed. 1I.N RON. MEMBER: MR. L. WOODROW: at - what? What is the population there? Roughly speaking you are looking 758 ....:. ;:: .-

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 290 so - 2 MR. L. WOODROW: From Huqhes Brook , which is in the bon. Minister of Health's district (Mr. w. House), I suppose you are lookinq at maybe 5·;000 or 6,000 people. That is the number but, of course . as I said, it is used by others ~ well, even by people as far out as Lark Harbour on the South shore , they come over there to play hockey and the like. Now, Mr.

Speaker, also in the field of recreation, plans are under way to put a municipal park in Cook's Brook, one of the beauty spots in the Bay of Islands4 Already an application has been made to the Department of Social Services for a community development project. And I hope if you COlli! - andrin fact 1 there is a lot of enthusiasm over this project.also and I hope that when the han. Minister of Social Services (Mr. T. Hickey) makes his budget up, when he is considerinq these projects 1 these make work or whatever ycu want to call them, community development projects, he will keep this one in mind. Mr.

Speaker, I th.ink I am qoinq to just about conclude now but I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, that it is indeed once aqain a pleasure to be in this han. House of Assembly and I think we all realize the importance of the offshore rights. I thir.k this is .the 1110st important issue that this Province ever faced and I hope that when the debate is finished we will be all of one mind on this very important issue. But I would like to end up my speech, Mr. Speaker, with a little sayinq from - AN HON. MEMBER: A prayer . MR. L. WOODROW: Oh, yes.

This is what a former Newfoundlaader wrote me from Toronto, very simple, but I thought it was a qood way to end up a speech. It is about the flag. He says, 759 : ' ~ = !

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 291 IB-1 MR. WOODROW: '~ think now is the right time to come up with a distinctive .:; symbol for the Island, now that Newfoundland stands so .- confidently before the future. With a firm identity and a bright future, a distinctive flag seems right~ So I want to wish the Committee well also .in their choosing of a flag. And now, Mr. Speaker, there are other things I had to say but I will leave them. We will be having an opportunity of speaking in the Budget Speech and I thank hon. members for their attention. = SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ..0 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) The hon. member for St.

Mary's- The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, First of all I would like to congratulate the member opposite on an excellent speech. Sir, he hit on some very good points and some points that are well taken. We share a lot of your sentiments. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the mover and the seconder of theAddress in Reply. I think they did an excellent job. Unfortunately I was not here, I was away and I could not make it. Before I s~art, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I am very grateful to the people of St.

Mary's-The Capes for the confidence and the trust they have put in me by electing me to represent them in this House over the next three or four years. I am very grateful for that. And I also have to thank all members on this side of the House for the excellent response they gave me during the by-election. Without the excellent speeches and the dedication that Mr. Jamieson showed towards me, Sir, I would not be here today and to him, Sir, I am very grateful and I will always remember the things he did. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 760

March ll, 1980 Tape No. 291 IB-2 MR. HANCOCK: A lot of people, Sir, could not figure out how I won that by-election which was, I guess, ___;. one of the major upsets in Newfoundland politics. Sir, the : only thing that I can attribute it to is we had the right candidate and we had the people on this side. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: So I think the day is over, Sir, when you can send a townie out around the bay and get him elected. I think those days are just about finished. Sir, I would like to thank the people here who got out.

The simple fact of the matter is that we outhustled the government side : which has almost twice as many members as we have. To each and every one of you I am very thankful for the job that you have done. Easicall~ the things that I am going to talk about this afternocn, Mr. Speaker, are the problems in my district.

I realize that government cannot solve all of the problems and I think sometimes the people in the district have to get more involved in internal problems and figure out what is wrong and work in conjunction with one another to determine what aspects they are going to take and what roles they are going to step forward in to overcoming the problems in their dis~rict. Sir, the fishing industry; I guess it is not only the main industry it is the only industry that we have in our district and I would like to dwell on that for a few minutes if I could.

I was pleased wi~h the announcement by the new Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). Looking back over some of the problems we had with the Fisheries Loan Board over the years, I wonder was it actually the minister's fault or was he given too much leeway by the Premier or whatever~ Sir, one of the main problems we have in our district right now 761

March 11, 1980 Tape NO. 291 IB-3 lfR. !'IANCOCK: is pertaining to the herring quota . There are fourteen licenses issued for 650 metric tons of herr ing to b~ caught in St. Ma~y·s 3ay and they are :isbinq riqhc now. The people are very upset ~itb the quota system.

One boat can go ln and actually catch 600 metric tons of herring i: it is lucky enough and the othe r twelve licenses are ther e it cost them in the vicinity of SlO, OOO to SlS,OOO to prepare for the herring season, to get ready, to get their boats ready to go out and catch the herring and they could end up with very little or no ~erring at all, And they are very disturbed over this matter and they would like government/ or work in conjunc tion with che government ,to set a boat quota. If chere are 650 metric tons and t!lere a.re cen boats 1 each boa t then, be allowed to catch in the vicinity of 65 metr ic tons.

Sir, last Summer a very disturblnq chtnq happened in my district 1 in particular 1 where a lot of people who came to my establishment were using the phone day after day after day trying co get rid of a load of squid wh ich co them, Sir, was a day's pay , and an honest day's P~Y . and a hard day's work,and they could no t 762 = ..:.

Harch 11, 1980 Tape No. 292 RA - 1 MR. D. HANCOCK : get plants anywhere in the district or outside of the district to look after the squid that they had caught that morning or that night. And Sir, that is the same as taking, if you had a SlOO dollar bill in your pocket taking it and just throwing it out the window. And here we have a plant in Admirals Beach that is approximately two hundred and fifty feet long which is only half or a little less than half developed. And Sir, it does not cost a heck of a lot of meney to develop that plant, to put running water in another

section of the plant to tube squid which there is a market for •• I would like to see this in my district, and other district~ I am sure, around the Province, improved in the upcoming season. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! M!L D. HANCOCK: Is there a n~ber of slipways that have been built in my district with very little consultation between the £isherrnen or the fishermen's committee in that area and government or the contractor, for·that matter , whoever is responsible for putting the slipways there. Usually a tender is called for a slipway.

Just take Portugal Cove, for example 1 on the Southern Shore which is the beginning of my district. There is a slipway in that community right _pow and ~~e fishermen tell ~e the only way they can use it is if they have a hovercraft or somethinc ti'l a<'!t f>:nm t:h .. l;ondw,.,.h un unto th .. .,, i ""'~v. It is very disturbing Sir, and there has been a heck of a·lot of money used, taxpayers' money. I might add, our money, the money of everybody here to put that slipw~v there. T~ is iust like takinq the money and throwinq it out the window. AN • HON. MEMBER : Hear, hear! MR . !:J.

HANCOCK: Sir, , we have no other industry, as I stated earlier 1 only the fisheries and we have to improve and enlarg~, we have, !cguess 1 over the past few years , grow greatly in the fishing industry ; and rightly so, because that is all we have. And the people in my district unlike ,- the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) , wh n states that "The Premier and all the mel!'bers _opposite have all their eggs in the one bas~ :et " 1 are not saying that he has all his eggs in the one basket pertaining to oil 1 ~hey are saying 763 ..:. : .. .-

March 11. 1980 Tape No. 292 RA -2 MR. D. HANCOCK : he has the hen, the roaster and part of the barn all in the one basket. SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. D. HANCOCK: What disturbs me Sir, is I have been here since October, we have not dwelt on fisheries half as much as we should have dwelt on it. Everything has bean taken up by oil. Wehave all been sucked in by oi1 1 God lOve it, I hope we get it some day. But we canuot neglect or forget about the fisher~es, because that is the thing that got us where we are today Sir, and if we neqlec~ that our heritage and our lifestyle goes down the drain along with it.

So, the tourist industry,or I should say lack of the tourist industry,! am sorry the ~nister for Tourism is not here. 1\N RON. MEMBER: He is down here. MR. D. HANCOCK: He is down here, is he? So we have great potential. in my district for the tourist industry, but there has been very little or no development.

You take the bird sanctuary on the Cape Shore I am sure 1 Sir, that if it were developed in a proper man- ner it .could attract thousands or literally hundreds of thousands of tourists to my district which would bring revenu .e not only into the Province but into my district which I am concerned about mostly as I am sure all members on this side and the other side of the House are. We also have the lig!lthouse in Cape St. Mary's Sir, we have great salmon rivers that could be developed but are not developed in the proper manner.

So I would beg the ~nister of Tourism to look at the potential that we have in our district somewhere down the road. It is hard to get a tourist I know 1 Sir, to come into a district that is approximately one-third unpaved and with ~o restaurant facilities. If we bring a bus tour, for example, tomorrow to take in the bird sanctuary on the Cape Shore. fir ~t of all 1 if you tell them they have to go over a

section of approximately forty miles of dirt road that is enough to turn them off in itself. But then if you also tell them they have to pack a lunch 1Sir, to go into that district ,they will be vert disturbed. There is only one restaurant in the whole district 764 ..:. : -= .•

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 292 RA -3 MR. 0. Hl'.NCOCK: and you have to ....;.. ..:_ travel one hundred and eighty miles right through the district, come out of my district and into Placentia to get a bite to eat. That, Sir, is very disturbing in this day and age. Like I say1 gover.nment cannot rectify all the problems,l?rivate individuals probably have not been given enough incentive to start up something that would be a viable operation and provide a living for them and their family. Sir, we talk about the ambulance service in Labrador . There is part of my district that is covered adequateiy -= by ambulance.

You take Trepassey 1 for example 1 has twQ, St. Vincent's has two, St. ~arJ's has two and then you leave St. ~ary's and you go approximately one hundred and twenty miles, one hundred and thirty miles to Placentia before you come across another ambulance. Last sumrr,er I was at the scene of, first at the scene I might add 1 of a fatal accident that took place in Mount Carmel, in my community and there was ;:lne individual killed and there were seven people in ehat car. I was there and I got transportation·for some of them, the ones that could be moved to the clinic in St. Joseph's.

Bu1; there were four of them or three of them, I am not sure now, that could not be moved at the time for they had back injuries or spinal injuries or whatever and we had to wait an hour and thirty-five minutes before we reached an ambulance/ fromthe tiffie the R.C.!1.P were notified until the ambulance arrived at the scene of that accident. This to me Sir, is not good enough. If an accident. .- 765

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 293 IB-1 MR. HANCOCK: occurred in North Harbour or in Branch we have to wait for Placentia, we have to wait for Riverhead which would take them an hour and a half or two hours to get there especially this time of the year. Recreation in my area is another grave concern. We have in some places too much, as you might say, and I will be the first to admit it. Take the communities of St.

Mary's, Point La Haye North 1 and Gaskiers which are in the vicinity of a three or four mile radius. -There are no less than three soccer fields or softball diamonds, soccer fields now, they are converting one of them into a softball diamond. Sir, it is nice to apply for a Canada Works or a LIP programme or whatever and put a field in a community but it is also nice to educate the people to best utilize the facilities that are already there. There is no need of those three fields there now. I was on them last Summer during the ele ction and there was grass on th~m then about two feet high.

Obviously they had not been used for a number of years and it disturbs me, Sir, to see the taxpayer~ money of this Province go down the drain. In other areas of the Province there are very little or no recreation facilitie~ . Ne had to fight like heck this year to try and get- if not for the election we would not have gotten it - a grant for the softball diamond in Moun t Carmel which I can assure this hon. House will not be set aside to be used by cattle or whatever. uttermost, Sir.

That field will be used at its There are a number of outdoor swimming pools in the area which - in a radius I am talkin~ now 1of eight or ten miles. Each of ~·-~ communities has its own identity or likes to ha ve its- own identity but it is also 766 ..; .•

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 293 IB-2 MR. HANCOCK: nice to have something that can be used the whole year round. Mount Carmel has one and I think · approximately $135,000 was spent on it, a swimming pool, Sir, and you could not get your ankles wet there if you tried. And the same applies to other sections of the aistrict~ It would be a lot better,in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, if we all put our heads together and came up with an indoor swimming pool, something that could be used for the school systems and the youth of our district and be used the whole year round rather than just used in the Summer.

Our Summer season could last two weeks. It has been gravely neglected, Sir. Some of the smaller problems that exist in my district, that a lot of members here would not even be aware of because I was not aware of them until I moved back ther~ coming from the South Coast years ago. Then I end up back in Mount Carmel some fifteen years later to find out that we had the same problems that existed on the South coast twenty years ago 1 they have been overcome, some little problems that people in Conception Bay North, Conception Bay South would not think of.

We have one bank in the district which is located in Trepassey and you have to go all the way through the district, 180 miles later or 200 miles later, to get into Placentia to another bank. That is a disturbing factor to me 1 especially when you run out of change on a Friday evening and it is four o'clock on five o'clock and it costs your twenty dollars to get a guy to go to town to pick you up $120 worth of change for the weekend. We have no restaurants at all.

There is one restaurant,again in Trepasse~ which , I guess 1 population-wise would warrant it , but there are also other areas of that district that could support a restaurant. I am not saying that government can go out and stick a restaurant here or a restaurant there but they can probably get somebody interested enough to set up a restauran t or a lit tle workshop or somethin g next door so 767 ~ ~ -- = .=.

March ll, 1980 Tape No. 293 IB-3 MR. HANCOCK: that he can make a living at it. There is no public library, no theatre, no supermarket. There is not one supermarket in the whole district where you can go in with a cart and push it around 'and come out and get your groceries the same as you can in many of the other districts around this Province. No drugstore. We had a drug dispensary on the Cape Shore which serviced a large area,as I stated yesterday , and for some reason the government decided to take that out of it. I do not know if the hon. member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) has a share in the drugstore in Placentia and he has got some influence to get the people to go into Placentia to buy their drugs. I do not think it is true but it is something that could happen. There is no cottage hospital. There is one RCMP station. No hotels. And you talk about the poor T.V. reception we are getting on the South Coast. You should come out to my distri?t and talk to some of the people who spent literally hundreds of dollars to move an antenna 600 feet up on the cliff to have it blown down with the storm.

They put up another one so they could pick up the thinas that we in other parts of this Province just take for granted. There is little or no response from NTV. I have tried since I have been elected and I have written to the CRTC and I am waiting for a reply back from them to see what they are going to do on the matter. Sir, Canada Works programmes; they are great programmes. They are badly needed in some areas, especially in my district, because in the Wintertime when fishing stops we have no other alternative but to go and put something in the community that is going to benefit the community.

But, Sir, the thing that distracts me and disturbs me about the canada works Programme is the money that theY pay for the wages that are paid out in Canada rtlorks. 768 -= ..:

March ll, 1980 Tape 294 EC - l MR. D. !UINCOCX: A person came to me the other day, a married man with four children, six of them in the family. He was working with McNamara here in town and he got laid off for the Winter months, so naturally, he had to go and register w:i,. th Manpower to receive his unemployment. He is taking home $152 a week, if I am not mistaken, in unemployment. Manpower phoned him just shortly after Christmas and said he had to go to work in ~ada Works. The man is now taking home $129 a week, trying to maintain a new heme and support four children.

So that is little better than slave wages, and I would like to see the wages improved on thG•• Canada Works prcqraJIIIIes. The '::" ..: programmes, like you say, are badly needed, very badly needed, .but we also need to look after the people who are working on those programmes. MR. S. NEARY: The provincial government, by the way, is partly responsible for that. MR. D. !illNCOCX: It does not surprise me with wages the way they are. Sir , pasture lands are .another grave concern to all the people in my district. That is why I presented the petition today on their behalf from one section, and I have more to come.

They feel that the government has looked after those pasture lands, they have kept them up 0 The cattle has been more than looked after .by the time it comes .back to them after two or three months on the pasture lands. They would not want to see a private individual obtain or look after the pasture lands because they are afraid the private individual would start to cut corners and if he cut corners and cut dollars ~~eir livestock will suffer and ~~ey will not get a fair return. They realize, Sir, that the money they are paying is more than reasonable.

Tr~y should be paying a bit more and they would be the first to admit it. You cannot put a sheep on a pasture land for three or four 1110nths and expect the government to operate it at $1.50 a head, I mean, it is a bit ridiculous - ! would be the first to admit that. Charge them $5 or $6, but make sure their livestock is looked after. Because in my district, in particular, Sir, this is a great savings to the people concerned. 769

March 11, 1980 Tape 294 EC - 2 MR. D. HANCOCK: Sir, the road conditions in my district - well, I live in a district which is still approximately one-third unpaved. And! will give members on the opposite side of the the House there all the credit, there has been a lot of work done in the laat six or eight years with regard to road work, but, Sir, there is still a lot that needs to be done.

Like I say, I am living in a district which is still approximately one-third unpaved, and you try to tell a guy living in Branch that it coats him $300 more every six months or two months to maintain a vehicle than it does if you were living in St.John's ;and he would soon tell you where to go. He realizes that he has to pay in the vicinity of $1,500 to $2,000 extra every year to maintain a vehicle going over that

section of dirt road. It was only as early as yeaterday I was talking to a trucker. 'Dick, ' he said, 1 I am caught between hel.l and high water. 1 He said, 'If I go from Point Lance around, wlti.ch is a larger !lection of pavement than if I come the North Harbour way, I burn $40 to $50 more in gas. 1 He said, 'What do I do? Will I take a chance and go over the dirt

section of the road and break a windshield or lose a tire. ' He said , 'What would you do? ' So the people of that area would like to see the roads upgraded. You take, for example, the coamunities of Colinet, Harricott, Little Barasway, Big Barasway, Ship Cove, Path End,Point La Haye and North Harbour which do not have pavement in their communities. Thera are not too many communities around this Province which do not have pavement actually in the community, itself.

I went over that road last ~ght, over to North Harbour to attend a meeting of t!"le concerned citizens in ~~at area who have to send children a distance of forty miles by return trip to school every morning. I would like :0 ask hon. members here how would they feel if they had to get ~p and get their children ready seven o'clock in the morning to send them off over a

section of twenty miles of dirt road? I know I would not want to do it with mine, I can assure you of that. And I am sure hon. members opposite and on this side of the House would not want to see their children neglected in that way. 770 - -= ::

March ll, 1980 Tape 294 EC - 3 MR. D. HANCOCX: When I first got elected, I said I was getting so many phone calls I figured it was just the P.C.s ~ing to drive me off the head over the road conditions, but then I put two and two together and I sud to Ill'/ wife one day, 'Girl, there cannot be that many P.C.s in the district so the road problems really do exist,' and that is virtually what we are up against- no pavement, no upgrading. And the snow clearing this year, Sir - I am glad the Minister of Transportation (Mr. C. Brett) is here - has been utterly ridiculous in Ill'/ area to say the least. MR.

NEARY : All over. MR. D. HANCOCX: Sir , we had two pieces of equipment in Trepassey, a small plough and a grader with two operators, with so~~~e of the worst sections of road from Trepassey to St. Vincent's to St. Shotts to keep open. You can go through that

section of road and ten minutes later you have to go through it again to open it up, and here we were with two operators. They are not bionic men, Sir, they cannot operate twenty-four hours a day. I would not like to see that happen in the future and I am sure you would not, Sir, if you were living on that

section of road and had to travel over it every day. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. I would not. 771 =

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 295 GH-1 MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how long I have been speaking, but my father said to me one time, he said, "Some politicians can say in thirty seconds what it takes others thirty minutes to say", and I agree with him after listening here. I was listening to an open-line program the other morning and the calls were pertaining to "What do you think of Mr. Smallwood compared to Mr.

Peckford?" This one caller came on and the comments got around the club and they were talking about it after that night, but he was saying, "Yes, Sir, we do need a fighter to lead us into the eighties", this caller calls in. He said to Mr. Sterrett, "We do need a fighter, Sir. We need a Mohammed Ali if we can get him", he said, "Sir, we need him, we definitely need him. This Province needs him to lead us into the eighties.

But", he said, "Sir, we also need a Mohammed Ali with a bit of common sense who can sit down and reason and thrash things out not only with _his fists," he said, "but with what is upstairs." So sometimes I think the Premier goes a little bit overboard with going on like this and jumping up and down or whatever. That is only an attention grabber, Sir,, that is not the logical way to go about getting things. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say that the eighties have not started off that bad. Thank God that the Canadians saw fit to put the Liberals back in government. Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: (Butt) M...~. ANDREWS : The hen. mernbe~ for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, it is a great honour for me to address this hen. House in my first time of speaking in the House, and I would like to congratulate the newly elected member for St. Mary's-The Capes (~x. Hancock\ also in his remarks. There are three major issues I feel that were raised in the gracious Speech from the Throne.

They are issues that are certainly going to be very important to Newfoundland and have been important to Newfoundland in the past; the issue of the Labrador hydro, which is not being managed properly at the present time; the Northern cod stocks and the fishery as a whole, which is not beinq 772 __;.

March 11, 1980 Tape No. 295 GH-2 MR. ANDREWS: managed properly; and the whole issue of gas and oil that we have heard so much talk about and I am sure we will in the future days, but we have good management coming in place with gas and oil. My district of Burgee-Bay d'Espoir,I would say, Mr. Speaker, can be described as one of the forgotten districts in Newfoundland also. It is one of the last areas in Newfoundland where communities are not connected by highways, and boat travel is the most common means of transport.

The situation was eased somewhat last Fall when the new highway connection was opened to eurgeo from St. George's, and I am looking forward to the Minister of Transportation and Comm