Manitoba Hansard — 15 April 1971 (Sitting 6, 29th Legislature, 3rd Session)

29-3-6

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, April 15, 1971 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 95 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where there are nine members of the 6th Company of Guides. The Company is under the direction of Mrs. G. Molgat and is from the Constituency of St. Vital. Also in the gallery are nine members of the Ste.

Margaret's Cubs under the direction of Mrs. G. W. Empey. These cubs are from the Constituency of Wolseley. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you all here today. Again before proceeding, I should like to thank the honourable members for their co operation and assistance I have received in carrying out my duties in the Chair to date. We have a most capable Hansard staff but occasionally it is impossible to transcribe from tape when two voices have been simultaneously recorded.

The Chair is certain honourable members appreciate this technical difficulty and I welcome their indulgence and cooperation. May I therefore extend the courtesy to introduce all honourable members before their questions or answer or remarks are made in order to facilitate and make absolutely certain no honourable member's comments are omitted from Hansard. I have been assured by our capable technician, Mr. Ray Sly, the microphone of the honourable member so introduced by the Chair shall be open and recording his or her valuable contribution. Introduction of bills. The Honourable Attorney-General.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. H. MACKLING, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (St. James) introduced Bill No. 4,

an Act to amend the County Courts Act (1), and Bill No. 5,

an Act to amend The Court of Appeal Act. HON. SA UL A. MILLER (Minister of Youth & Education) (Seven Oaks) introduced Bill No. 7,

an Act to amend The Public Schools Finance Board Act. (Second reading Monday next.) MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) introduced Bill No. 8,

an Act to amend The Brandon Charter. MR. STEVE PA TRICK (Assiniboia) introduced Bill No. 24,

an Act to incorporate Strathcona Curling Club. STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr.S;Jeaker, I wonder if I may be given the opportunity of presenting the Annual Report of the Department of Labour for 1970 and the Report of the Workmen's Compeasation Board for the same period. Copies will be distributed to members of the Assembly. And may I, Mr. Speaker, also while I'm on my feet, be given the opportunity of making a statement respecting unemploy ment in the Province of Manitoba at this time.

This morning's release from the Dominion Bureau of Statistics on the March, 1971, labour force shows a slight improvement in the national employment level although the continuance of 650, OOO Canadians on the unemployment rolls reflects a national disgrace. The Government of Manitoba have called upon the Federal Government to adopt a full employment objective as No. 1 priority, and thus the urgent need to adopt imaginative and expansionary policies particularly in the fields of housing and transportation.

The Federal Government, though, appears to be willing to accept for this calendar year a national seasonal adjusted unemployment rate of five to six percent. Regarding Manitoba, I am glad to report that, despite the present strike at Flin Flon, the unemployment has actually decreased from an unemployment rate of six percent in February to 5. 4 percent in March. This has rn eant the decline in actual numbers from 22, OOO in February to 20, OOO in March.

96 April 15, 1971 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) •.••• Unfortunately, our sister provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan have registered increasing unemployment, with the Saskatchewan unemployment rate increas ing from 4. 6 to 4, 8 percent and the Alberta rate increasing from 6. O to 6. 6 percent. Total employment in Manitoba - and may I direct this to the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek who spoke yesterday - total employment in the province in March has dropped 3, OOO from February.

The favourable situation in Manitoba I attributed to the expansionary policies and programs in the housing and public works areas this government undertook in October and November months of 1970, So, Mr. Speaker, may I say that while .we are not satisfied with the unemployment rate in Manitoba, we are encouraged.that as a result of the policies of _this government the total rate of unemployment in Manitoba is going down at a greater rate than it is all across this great Dominion of Canada. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.

C. (Leader of the Opposition)(River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I'm going to reply to the Honourable Minister of Labour. I had hoped that what he would be presenting would be information, but he presented it in a way which is suggestive of a situation which appears to be rectifying itself as a result of the efforts and labour of the present government, and I think the record has to show what really has happened and we have to judge the statement in the light of the perspective of the total problem in Manitoba.

I would hope that when we have the new Department of Statistics developed and created by the government and presented to us, we are going to have available to us the kinds of records that will be meaningful in judging specifically the nature and the extent of unemployment in this province, because unemployment is not just the numbers that are indicated in the statistics of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, but unemployment consists in what is referred to in the disguised statistics, people who are not recorded on the statistics who must be considered and whose situation must be considered, and those people of Indian origin who are not included in the statistics. .

Now, if I am correct, the government has admitted in the Standing Committee of Economic Development that, in addition to the percentage that we have, there is an addition al 2 percent people of Indian origin who are not included, so that when we talk in terms of 5 percent in the Province of Manitoba then we have to add an additional 2 percent, which makes it 7 percent -- (Interjection) -- Yes, we have to add it across Canada except you have to understand specifically the number of Indian people that live in Manitoba and compar_e that relatively to the other areas in Canada.

In addition, we have to include the numbers who I referred to as "disguised unemployment." These are people who live on the farms, who do net have work and who are not recorded in the statistics. These would include some of the fishermen who are not included in the statistics; these would include many of the young people who are looking for their first job and are not included in the statistics; And then, Mr. Speaker, the question of unemployment has to be judged in the light of the out-migration that exists in this province today.

Now, Manitoba has always lost popula tion but Manitoba in its history has rarely lost significant numbers of people at a time when there are high levels of unemployment in the rest of Canada, and if we trace through history and go back to the period of 159 and '6 0, a period when there in fact was difficulty and a high unemployment rate in Canada, we will find that the people, the young people, the people who could not find jobs, remained in Manitoba because they did not want to be unemployed some where else.

Yet we have an out-migration and the unemploymentfi 311 res that have been mentioned have to be judged by that out-migration figure. And if I'm correct, if we look back in terms of the last year, not necessarily calendar and not even necessarily a fiscal year, but if we were to take it from this period of time, my guess would be that we would have approximately 10 , OOO people who have left this province and that figure has to be weighed against the situation, . Now, the Minister of Labour says that it's the expansionary policy of the government that has helped solve their situation.

Well, it's true, we have 800 new people employed by the civil service and to that extent the expansionary policy of the government has made its contribution. But the serious part and the concern that we have expressed before, which we must express again, is while the government has applied correctly the basic economic tools of government support of public works programs as a means to stimulate the economy during a period of time of high unemployment, they have not seen fit as yet to develop the kind of ,)--

April 15, 1971 97 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ••••• programs that would allow the private sector to accomplish another objective of adding to the job opportunities in this province and providing the additional stimulus. They have ignored this and they have simply accepted that it is government and government alone that will solve the problems and provide the solutions and, Mr. Speaker, we on this side reject this. And, Mr.

Speaker, the unemployment figures have to be judged in the light of the number of university students who are going to be attempting in the next period of time to find summer employment to be able to provide them with the income to carry them through for the next term of university.

And so, while we are happy that there is some success in terms of lowering the unemployment, I would suggest to the honourable members opposite that we have nothing to be that proud of, that there is much more work to be done, and that the programs that have been undertaken are not complete and that in fact there is a necessity to assist in trying to create the programs that will allow the private sector to continue its activities and in the main provide the kind of job opportunities that will allow our people to remain in Manitoba and to find job opportunities here.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. GOROON E. JOHNSTON (Portage La Pr airie): Mr. Speaker, I won't take too much time of the House in responding to the Minister of Labour but I thought he could have been a little more fair. MR, SPEAKER: Order please. I must inform the member that I cannot recognize him as a Leader of his Pa rty. If I allow him, I must allow every other individual member to make a statement as well. Orders of the Day. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR . G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, are the orders called or can I ask a question? May I ask a question? MR. SPEAKER: You may ask a question.

The Honourable Member for Portage La Pr airie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: It's a two-part question. Number 1: would the Minister tell us the amount of money that was made available from federal sources for his expansionary employment program that he talks about; and Number 2: would he also tell us the number of people in the reduction of unemployment from 23, OOO down to 20, OOO in the months of February to March, would he tell us the numbers of that 3, OOO who left the province to look for work elsewhere. MR. PA ULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I welcome the question proposed by the Honourable Member for Portage La Pr airie and I believe, in the conduct of this House, it gives me an opportunity of really replying in essence to some of the propositions of. , •• , MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris) : On a point of order. On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: On· a point of Order. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR, JORGENSON: The Minister has indicated that he intends to reply to the Leader of the Opposition and the comments that were made in reply to his statement, and I submit to you, Sir, that that is not in order.

All he is able to do at this time is reply to the questions put by the Leader of the Liberal Pa rty, nothing more. He took advantage of the opportunity to inject himself into this debate in order to reply to my friend from Sturgeon Creek ••••• MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JORGENSON: If he wants to ••••• the debate he can get in through the ••••• MR . PA ULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I may ••••• MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I must apologize to the House.

I was distracted and I went on the assumption that the Minister was going to reply to the qw stion, and if I'm in error, that's my error and I take the responsibility but I'm going to inform the members the statement I read earlier today in regard to conduct is being in effect, and if members think their microphone is on when.they're up, they're sadly mistaken. Until I recognize them, it's not, so therefore there's no point in shouting across the Chamber, The Honourable Minister of Labour in reply. MR. PA UL LEY: Mr. Speaker, I agree with you and I accept the admonitions of the Member from Morris.

I will not reply to the Honourable Leader of Opposition --(Interjection)-

98 April 15, 1971 MR , SPEAKER: I did not recognize the Member for Swan River, I don't know whetoor he had a point of order or what he had, but it wasn't recorded so he may as well realize that it wasn't recorded, The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Mr, Speaker, I recognize how unpalatable my reply to the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie may be to the Official Opposition and I am in a position to reply to him, And I trust that my honourable friends in Opposition will bury their heads in the sand be.cause they will not hear -- (Interjection) -- Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Swan River suggests I should answer his question instead of listening to he who happened to be a Speaker of this House some time ago and God forbid that that party ••••. MR . SPEAKER: I wonder if the Minister of Labour will reply to the question. Order please, Is the Minister going to reply? MR , PAULLEY: ••••• given the opportunity of replying to the Member for Portage la Prairie without interjection from the rabble opposite, I will do it.

MR , SPEAKER: Would you proceed, please, MR , PAULLEY: I do want to say to my honourable friend, the Member for Portage la Prairie, I recognize and appreciate the content of his question. I do want to say to him that it is as a result of the programs of the Government of Manitoba that we are able today, through the Minister of Labour, to announce to this House that there has been a reduction in the unemployment percentage in Manitoba, I'm glad that the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie raised the question as to how this came about.

Because of the policies of this government, employment in Manitoba has increased by 3, OOO, despite the admonitions of some members opposite, and if there are crocodile tears emanating from some of the eyes of some members opposite I accept them because this is the process of democracy and it is understandable in this Assembly. -- (Interjection) -- No, you didn't ask for it but you wanted to know why it happened and I'm giving you the answer as to why it happened: because of the efficient conduct of the Government of Manitoba in the field of .employment in the Province of Manitoba, that we are now in a position to state that of all of the provinces, despite out-migration in some(which is not so in Manitoba despite your gallery leader) that we are able to say that there has not been any out-migration of employees in Manitoba, that our unemployment rate has gone down more favourably than any other province in the Dominion.of Canada.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, MR , G, JOHNSTON: Mr, Speaker, I'm glad to see you allow such wide latitude but I wonder if the Minister would answer my question, The first question was: for the so-called expansionary work program that went on last winter that was instituted by the province, how much of the money was supplied from federal source; to finance such a program? The second question was: of the reduction of 3, OOO in unemployment in the months from February to March, how many of them left the province ? MR .

PA ULLEY: No import from the federal authority, no outflow of experts in the labour force in Manitoba. As a matter of fact, as I indicated in my statement, there has been an increase in the labour force in Manitoba of 3, OOO in the period, despite the admoni tions of his gallery leader. MR , SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Labour could indicate whether in the last quarter there has not been an out-migration of a significant number of people from this province.

MR , PAULLEY: I'm pleased to indicate to my honourable friend that there has been an increase in too total population of the Province of Manitoba due to the effectiveness and the efficiency of the Government of Manitoba. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I would like the Honourable Minister of Labour to answer my question. Is it not a fact that in the last quarter there has been a significant out migration of people from this province? MR , PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have already given the answer to my honourable friends, Those who cannot see are blind. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR , HARRY J.

ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister without Portfolio - I believe he's the Minister in charge of Cultural Affairs? No? Oh, pardon me, The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. Tonight is Oscar

April 15, 1971 99 (MR. ENNS cont'd) ••••. night in the entertainment world and can he inform the House as to whether or not the government has any nominees in the running? HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Tourism, Recreation, and Cultural Affairs) (Dauphin) : It gives me a great deal of pleasure to nominate the Honourable Member for Lakeside. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health & Social Development)(Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to attempt to answer the question posed by the Leader of the Official Opposition yesterday pertaining to the attempted hijack by three juveniles.

Our general policy is to transfer juveniles to the Winnipeg Reception Centre if holding a child is indicated. This policy has been followed for a num ber of years as the Dauphin detention is small and it is necessary to hire guards on contract basis. There was no question as to the need to hold these three juveniles. One boy was to be referred to the Review Board with a view to committal to the Manitoba Home for Boys; another boy was to be referred to the Forensic Clinic also with a view to possible committal; the third boy was to be held only until such time as a suitable place and plan could be developed.

We had used plane services extensively for transferring most juveniles. This practice, I understand, has also been followed by other regions. We have not had occasion to send three juveniles at one time in the past. If we think a juvenile is dangerous we ask for a police escort and they have been co-operating to the fullest extent in the past. We also transfer some juveniles by car, depending on the situation. The use of plane services has been efficient and economical. Arrangements are made for the juvenile to be met at Winnipeg by custodians from the Reception Centre. I do believe, Mr.

Speaker, it is important to tell the members of this House that it has been a policy of both the Depart ment of Health and Social Development, as well as the Attorney-General's Department when they were in charge, to transfer juveniles in this manner and I was not aware of such a policy until the unfortunate incident. Of course, as Minister, I accept full responsibility and would like to indicate that we are studying imminent changes in this regard. This means more staff may be required to act as escorts, which in turn could mean more expenditures of money from our department.

However, I am certain all members of this Assembly agree with me in recognizing the importance of these changes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my questions to the Minister are ones really for clarifi cation in terms of his statement. Are you suggesting that the procedures that were followed in this particular situation were the procedures that have been followed in the past? You're nodding your head in approval. You're suggesting that there may be a change as such, and you're suggesting additional expenditures. Well, Mr.

Speaker, surely the Minister is not suggesting that the matter is going to be studied; surely it is the intention of the government to act and to act pretty expeditiously in this matter now. -- (Interjection) -- Well, are you suggesting that this is still to be a question ••• ? Mr. Speaker, I'll frame it this way: Is the Minister suggesting that a policy has not yet been determined by the government ? As a result of his investigation, he has not yet determined the policy that he'll announce to the House? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I don 't believe that it is the responsibility of one Minister to establish policy for government. What I have said in this release is that this will be studied by Cabinet when they meet and a policy will be established. MR. SPIVAK: My question is to the First Minister, Will it be the intention of the government to announce a policy fairly quickly in connection with this kind of situation? HON, EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Yes, Mr. Speaker, it would seem that the situation merits quick attention to the advisability of policy change.

However, I want to make it clear to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that, if the problem is one that relates to a policy that has been a standing one, a standing practice for the past seven or eight years, I don't think we should panic into a change of policy within a matter of 24 hours. It should receive all due and deliberate consideration and possibly some announ cement can be made within a matter of a week or so. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to indicate to the House that the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development has naturally been in communication

100 April 15, 1971 (MR. MACKLING cont'd) ••• with my department about this and it's our collective under standing that no further transfers of juveniles will take place unescorted pending a change in policy or a consideration of the policy involved. MR. L. R.(Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs, and it pertains to an advertisement that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press on March 29th, Sir, having to do with the special three-man commission set up by the government to hear appeals against proposed ward boundaries under the government's proposed one-city plan, Sir. l'd like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs when the deadline is for appeals against the proposed ward boundaries ? HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.C. (Minister of Finance, Minister for Urban Affairs) (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I'm not familiar with the advertisement.

I'm a little surprised at the use of the word "appeal". I'm wondering if that was actually used in the advertise ment. What was, I believe - not having seen it - I believe the intention was to request advice and guidance and I don •t know whetre r there was a deadline or not. My honourable friend read the advertisement; I didn't. I can say that I am informed that the report is almost ready for presentation. MR. SHERMAN: I don't have a copy of the advertisement in front of me, I might say by

preamble, Sir, but I did read the advertisement and I think anyone's understanding of it would have been that this was an opportunity for those municipal councils to lodge •••• MR. SPEAKER: Order. Would the member please state his question? MR. SHERMAN: •••• to lodge requests or appeals against the proposed boundaries. Now what I'm asking is whether the Minister has taken into consideration the fact that most municipal councils only meet once every two weeks and therefore has taken into account the fact that they really weren't provided with sufficient time to prepare proper appeals. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, the policy paper which was distributed in December and of which not only the Honourable Member from Fort Garry received a copy but copies of which were sent to every councillor in Greater Winnipeg, contained a map description of the proposed wards, and at that time it was stated in the paper that any comments, advice, guidance, would be appreciated.

At every public meeting that was held - aJid I would say there were at least 16 of them - am at every other meeting that was held of an association nature, the request was repeated and indeed many responses were received, all of which were sent on to the committee which was established to review boundaries, so that there has been ample opportunity for everyone interested in making comment since about the middle of December. All communications received were transmitted to the committee. MR. SHERMAN: TP,e Minister is not answering my question. May I ask this supple mentary then, of the Minister, Mr. Speaker?

Why did the First Minister establish the J commission to hear appeals against ward boundaries which he did, and why did that ad \ appear in the Free Press on March 29th? If the Minister is arguing that this was all done from December on, it was done as of March 29th. Why was it done? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I want to make it clear that I am questioning the word "appeal. 11 Whether or not it appeared, I am questioning the word "appeal. 11 The fact is that it was announced publicly, oh, a number of times, that a commit tee, an independent· commission would be established in order to advise the government on the ward boundaries originally proposed, that this committee, or commission, would be requested to report back to the government indicating its review and its recommendations as to that. Now, I do not accept the comment of the honourable member that this was an opportunity for appeal.

At all times there was a request, which was accepted by many, that guidance, advice and indications of opinion should be submitted as quickly as possible, and many were. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry has had two supplementary questions. Well, in that case, the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture·.

In view of a meeting held recently in Clear water, sponsored by the National Farmers Union, where a resolution was passed which called for the farmers to refuse to pay all payments of principa l interest to the Farm Credit Corporation or to banks until interest comes due to a reasonable rate, say five percent, my question is, is the Minister prepared to act on this resolution?

April 15, 1971 101 HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the matter in question has not been put before me so I am not in a position to act on it. MR, EINARSON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. When the time comes, if he does act, is he prepared to reduce the interest rate for farm loans to 5 percent? MR. USKIW: Well I think, Mr. Speaker, it's obvious that's a very hypothetical question at this point and it's a matter of policy. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister, and ask the honourable gentleman when the deadline is for appeals against ward boundaries to be heard by the commission which he established, which he announced would investigate charges of gerrymandering and other such charges in ward boundaries. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry has directed a series of questions to the Minister of Urban Affairs. The Minister has replied to his question. There is nothing that I can add.

The honourable member is making certain assumptions which are unwarranted and as long as he persists in his folly there is no way that we can answer his questions. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Honourable Minister of Labour, It has been brought to my attention that there are flat rate mechanics who are on standby at garages from 8 to 5 but are only paid for the actual hours that they work, so that they may not be receiving even the minimum wage. I wondered if you feel this is fair and equitable labour practice in 1971. MR.

PA UL LEY: Mr, Speaker, in reply to my honourable friend - and I appreciate her question - no one, to my knowledge, in Manitoba receives less than the minimum wage adopted by this Assembly. MR. G. JOHNS'IDN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister. When the Premier announced a change in the C.F .I. agreement last year, whereby the C. F .I. was to put up, in kind or in cash, $45 million, at that time what steps did the province take to ensure that the money would be put up? MR. SCHREYER: Well Mr.

Speaker, here again there is an assumption on the part of the honourable member that is unwarranted. The honourable member may recall that back in August, early August of 1969, I indicated, after a meeting with certain of the principals of C, F, I, and other related companies, that we appeared to have igreed in principle that the companies involved would agree to a greater input of financing on their own account and therefore a proportionate decrease in the amount of financing required of the then Manitoba Development Fund.

It turned out that in the negotiations pursuant to that understanding of principle, the negotiations which carried through in the fall of '69 did not materialize, and as a result I announced to this House in March, late March of 1970, that no changes or modifications in the initial agreement were possible, in fact, and that we were simply carrying forward, carrying on under the terms of the initial contracts and agreements, and that's where the matter stood then and it stood that way right up until the moment of receivership. MR, SPEAKER: A supplementary by the Honourable Member for Portage. MR. G.

JOHNS'IDN: Yes, I would like to ask the Premier: when the takeover of C. F .I. was announced in January - the announcement was made by the government that the people who had valid unpaid claims, that the claims would be honoured by the government or M.D. c. or whichever agency - my question is, since the claims have ballooned from $8 million to $19 million, and I'm not saying they are all valid claims, will the province still honour all unpaid claims ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, here again there is an assumption that isn't warranted, the choice of the term "takeover." Mr.

Speaker, what is involved here as has been said many times by my colleagues or myself; is that this is a court-appointed receivership. I believe that's technically correct, is it not? And that with respect to the question of unpaid claims, I think that my answer has to be that all those claims that are held to be valid under law will have to be met and paid. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question to the First Minister. Is it not a fact, is it not a fact that the New Democratic Party literature indicated that Churchill Forest Industries ' solution has been found and the matter has been solved. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm curious to know what literature my honourable friend is referring to, because I'm not aware of any such claim.

102 April 15, 1971 MR. SPIVAK: For the Premier's benefit, I'll show him that literature. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Attorney-General. Could he inform us now as to the order of the matters to be brought before the Law Reform Commission? MR. MACKLING: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot. The Law Reform Commission, as the honourable member may know, has the right, pursuant to the Act establishing the Law Reform Commission, to initiate studies on its own.

It also has a responsibility to investi gate matters refeITed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in�Council through the Attorney-General, and they are studying certain matters that have been referred to them and in due course there will be reports made :EXIhlic, and copies of which can be tabled in the House, but the reports will be -- they will not be secret documents, and they will be tabled as they are completed. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: To the same Minister at least.

I wonder if the Minister could tell us when we might expect to receive the revised statutes of the Social Allowances Act as they were amended during the last session. They haven't come through as yet. MR. MACKLING: I am afraid I.would have to take that as notice unless my colleague, whose department covers the Queen's Printer, might be able to edify you. I will take the matter as notice and inquire from him if necessary. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce)(Brandon East): Mr .

Speaker, I would take this opportunity to table a reply to Order for Return No. 39 dated August 13, 1970 on motion of the Member from River Heights. By way of explanation, Mr. Speaker, the information was supplied to all parties some time ago but I understand under the provisions of Rule 101 of this House that this Return has to be tabled in the House, and I so do at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

In today's Votes and Proceedings, there is a statement to the effect that in the introduction of a bill yesterday by the Minister of Agriculture, he recommended that the bill had received the attention of the Administrator, and I think that that was the term that he used yesterday. I was wondering, first of all, if the House, if the Government now had gone into receivership. But the point I want to raise, Sir, is that in-Hansard it is stated that it is recommended to the House by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, and I think that should be corrected, because I am sure the Minister said the Administrator. MR.

SPEAKER: The point is noted. The.Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: According to the memo that I had on my desk, it appeared that the Lieutenant-Governor was not in a position to recommend the measure becailse of his absence, and it is logical to follow through with the Administrator. That's normal procedure as I understand it. MR. JORGENSON: Sir, I am not quarreling with that. All I am saying that in Hansard it appears "the Lieutenant-Governor" and that that should be corrected. MR. USKIW: ••••• that those responsible will take note, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKE R: I 111 look after that.

The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day l would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services. It is my understanding that a day care centre has been established in Brandon under the auspices of the Children's Aid Society, with grants available of $4. 38 per capita from the Provincial Government. Will the same grants be available for other centres, let's say Brandon, Thompson and some of the northern cities as well? MR. TOUPIN: Well, first of all, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to receive all applications for the setting up of day care centres. There are per diems set according to regulations and we do have funds available that you will see when I table the estimates in this House. I would ask the honourable member to ask the people who are interested to have their demands forwarded to the Department of Health and Social Development and the per diem will be set according to regulations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development.

I wonder whether he could indicate how many community health and-

April 15, 1971 103 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ••.•• social welfare clinics the government are intending to create in this fiscal year, both in Winnipeg and in Manitoba, outside of Winnipeg? MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, we would like to actually construct as many as we possibly can, depending on the cooperation that we get from private agencies, groups of doctors and so on. I can't really say how many this will be. I do hope that experience will show that in the next ten years that we will see a great number of health and social develop ment centres in this province. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question.

I wonder whether the Minister can inform the House whether it will be the intention to have the doctors working in such a clinic to be registered as civil servants and to come under the Civil Service Act. MR, TOUPIN: Here again, Mr. Speaker, is a matter for consideration by the Cabinet and by the groups of doctors that will be actually incited to be part of these health and social development centres, MR. SPIVAK: I take it, then, the possibility of doctors becoming civil servants is being considered by the government at the present time . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Health. MR.

TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I don't need the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition to put thoughts in my mind. I have my own. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, on the same question to the Minister of Health, can he indicate whether the Health Sciences Centre plans will be held in abeyance until these plans are further elaborated on? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, there was a letter sent to the officials of the Health Resources program saying that some of the items under the Health Resources Fund were being held to a maximum of six months.

They are now under review and this will be definitely part of the recommendation of the committee studying the Health Resources program. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, as a matter of clarification, it is a condition of one or the other primarily at this point, then, of the Health Sciences Program or the Community Health Centres that you have been proposing. MR. TOUPIN: Not necessarily, Mr. Speaker. I hope it will be a combination of both. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a furthe r question to the Minister.

Can he indicate the proportion of federal financing that was available under the Health Resources Fund that is being held in this program as well? MR. TOUPIN: Not the exact amount, Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'm not certain who this question should be directed to, but perhaps the Minister of Public Works or the Minister of Cultural Affairs. Is it true that an American artist has been retained or commissioned to paint murals on some of the government buildings? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Public Works and Highways)(Thompson): I take it that the member is referring to the Challoner murals from the Royal Alex. - (Interjection) -- When he finds out what he's talking about, I'll answer his question. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'll try and rephrase the question so my honourable friend can understand. I see he's in his usual good form, that he never passes a compliment when an insult will do.

Is it correct that the Manitoba Government or some official in it has retained an American artist to paint the murals in a government building? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, because of the vagueness of the subject matter I think we will take the question as notice. Perhaps ·we should give the honourable member assurance in advance that whatever this mural is, if it is, it will not be obscene. MR. G, JOHNSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has Mr. Les Kuba, an American citizen and artist, been retained by this government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister. Has the government of the province of Manitoba received any communication from the State of North Dakota in connection with flooding at the International Border?

104 April 15, 1971 MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the answer is that we have not received a communica tion from the State of North Dakota. However, I have received a letter from a private group, a private organization within the State of North Dakota and I have referred it to my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Resources, and I'm sure that he'll be' taking it under advisement at the earliest possible opportunity. ORDERS OF THE DAY - GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Second reading -.. Government Bills. The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd ask that this Bill No. 2 stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 3. The Honourable Attorney-General, MR. MACKLING presented Bill No. 3,

an Act to amend The Liquor Control-Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, as hmourable members will recall, at the previous session very extensive amendments were made to The Liquor Control Act, the effect of which was to mean a fairly marked departure in the availability of alcoholic drink in certain types of premises. One of the amendments which was introduced dealt with a provision to provide for simple alcoholic drinks in beverage rooms.

However, when the amendment was made to the Act, I pointed out the necessity for protection of those areas which had held local option votes therefore prescribing the particular type of a facility they wanted in their community. Therefore, a refinement of the amendment fixed the right of a licensee who held a beverage room licence to only those areas where -- that is, the addi tional facility of selling simple alcoholic drinks to only those beverage room licensees where there had been a vote in the district to permit cocktail rooms.

The effect of this has been that since the Commission cannot issue a cocktail room license in unorganized territory or in a municipality under an administrator unless an application has been considered by the Licensing Board, and the Lieutenant Governor in Council has, on receipt of a recommenda tion of the Commission, approved the issue of that class of license in respect of these premises, the authority to serve liquor in a beverage room in some areas cannot be granted under the present provisions.

The proposed amendment would give the Liquor Control Board discretion on the issue of this authority in areas where there are no provisions to hold' a vote or to pass a by-law governing the issue of a cocktail room license. In effect, Mr. Speaker, the areas - particularly the remote areas and the less inhabited areas of parts of Manitoba where sophisticated premises like cocktail lounges are not economically feasible - have been proscribed from having the same type of facility that is otherwise available in more built-up areas and particularly areas of Metropolitan Winnipeg.

The effect, therefore, of the amendment as proposed in Bill 3 would be to rectify the anomaly that was created in the amendments passed at the last session. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I rise on this occasion not so much to deal with the substantive matter that is before us, but to more or less explain our party's position with respect to this and other bills that now either appear on the Order Paper or will be on the Order Paper shortly, and to indicate our policy in connection with these bills.

I think I can indicate to the House that there have been some discussions between the members opposite and ourselves in trying to facilitate certain bills to have speedy procedure through the House because of the particular matters involved and because of the consequences in connection with some of these matters.

Now, I would like to indicate for the record and for the members opposite that it is our intention to deal with these matters in a proper manner and to give it the scrutiny that it requires, and to present our alternative and constructive positions or agreement with the government's positions in each case. We therefore are going to deal with it as best we can in a way that will be consistent with the responsibility that is ours of acting as opposition and acting in a proper way to criticize where we think criticism is necessary.

It may very well be that in the course of debate additional information will be requested and we would hope that the members opposite will be prepared to deal with it. So, rather than specifically spell out any agreement that we may have for any of the bills that. may be forthcoming, including the present one, may I -

April 15, 1971 105 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..•.• simply indicate to the members opposite through you, Mr. Speaker, that it will be our intention to adjourn and in caucus and deal with the matters, and to debate them if we feel that debate is necessary. I may say that on perusal we are not certainly prepared to accept the bills without some fair scrutiny and fair debate in this House. This is our function and we intend to live up to it. We recognize that there are certain commitments that have been made by the government ••.•• MR.

SPEAKER: I hate to rise but the member has not come to the point on the bill that we have before us in second reading. Now I was lenient in allowing an explanation of his position but I think he now should come to the point of the debate. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, my purpose in entering the debate at this time on this particular bill was really to facilitate the matters of the House and to facilitate the operation and to indicate our position, and if leave is granted I would just then indicate - without trying to repeat what I have said - that it's our wish that we carry on the proper kind of debate and deal with the matters. We are not going to be obstructionist in connection with any of the policies, but I think it can be said, Mr.

Speaker, that because certain commitments were made it does not necessarily follow that there has to be agree ment from this side without the normal kind of scrutiny and the normal kind of debate that would indicate the intent of the government and give us the opportunity for a discussion here and a discussicn by the public in those matters in which they have a right to appear before the members of the committee of this Chamber. And having said this, Mr. Speaker, I would look forward to the presentation of the bills and our response. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR.

JEAN ALLARD (Rupertsland): Well, Mr.

Speaker, since I was the member in the last session who introduced the amendment to The Liquor Control Act with which this bill deals today, I'd lLl;:e to clarify for the members of the Opposition that all this bill really does is extend to those areas of the province who are not either of the City of Winnipeg or organized municipalities, the same rights as far as hard liquor in beverage rooms that now exist, and it was, I think, through an oversight in the writing of an amendment in the last session that this was not done, and I think that since the whole measure has been very popular and well received that for the benefit of the people and businessmen who are involved that I would exhort them to pass this bill.

I don't see any difficulties. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for. Riel, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, I would prefer to have this matter stand. (Agreed. ) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK presented Bill No. 9,

an Act respecting Local Government in Metropolitan Winnipeg, for sooond reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance and Urban Affairs. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the -- I think there were eight bills that I discussed with the Honourable Leader of the Opposition as being in that group which we requested to receive special and urgent consideration by members of this House.

This is one of those bills whi eh are not so much commitments as bills in preparation for actions which this Legislature may take, and others which in fact are specifically policy of government. This particular bill is one in which I hope that we can have the co-operation of members of this House in having it dealt with, and the reason that I accept the statements indicated by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition is th:t I accept his statement that there will be an effort to co-operate in dealing with this legislation in a positive manner.

Now, this particular bill deals with the fact that we intend, as was announced, to bring in legislation for reorganization of local government in Metro Winnipeg area, and this will be introduced in due course. Meanwhile there are certain actions that we feel govern ment should be empowered to take, and those actions we believe are such as will not prejudice in any way, or be prejudiced by in any way, the decision of this Legislature in

106 April 15, 1971 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) ••••••• regard to the urban reorganization bill which we have yet to bring before the House. It is therefore in the nature of interim legislation which deals with three important factors, and I again would like to stress the urgency and attempt to explain firstly why it is urgent, and secondly why it does not prejudice the House from dealing in its own way with the bill on local government reorganization. One purpose is to enforce an element of budgetary review and control over municipal budgets to be given to the Minister for Urban Affairs.

The situation now of course is, as all members must know, that under the Municipal Act the municipai councils are required to file their budgets with the Minister for Municipal Affairs for review and consideration, and I believe I'm correct in saying that they cannot be dealt with by municipal councils on second reading until they have been approved by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Now the purpose for the request here is to bring in the City of Winnipeg and St.

Boniface under this same general approach, and I must say that the City of Winnipeg has complied with our request even though it was not required to do so. We've already received certain budgets from certain of the municipalities in Greater Winnipeg. Today, I believe, is the deadline under the Municipal Act but we have not received all of the· budgets, to my way of knowing.

Nevertheless the purpose is to prepare for the possibility - and I may say the probability - that there will be a change in municipal government for the next calendar year, and that being the case it was felt that it would be desirable that the budgets of the various municipal councils should be very much in line with the way they had been in the past, that the pattern established would be such as is not breached in this year by any effort to change the pattern so as to in any way force the new government, whatever form it may take, from being in a position of finding committed programs which were not expected in the normal course, or indeed dissipation of accumulated assets to the benefit of any particular community.

I might say that I've had some corresporrlence with all of the municipal governments in Greater Winnipeg and have received in one form or another assurances to the effect that it was not the intention of councils to vary from their normal practice. One of the forms taken was one that was rather indignant in my suggesting the possibility that this would be done. But, in any event, whatever form they took there was that indication and therefore what I'm requesting in this bill is that there be the budgetary review and control which is spelled out in the first few sections of the bill.

The second purpose is to prepare for the possibility - and may I say probability - that there would be an election this fall in Greater Winnipeg for a rew regional council. That being the case, it would be necessary to have enumeration take place immediately in order to prepare for that election.

Since, of course, we cannot be absolutely sure that there will be passage of the proposed legislation, the proposal in this bill is to provide for the possibility of enumeration being carried out in -such a way that it will accommodate the needs of the existing municipalities as they are today - that is, enumeration which has to be done in any event - or the possibility of enumeration on the basis of proposed wards under the new regional eouncil, so that the mechanism is ready to go, so that one enumeration would be available in either direction, either of the two directions which may have to be followed, for the fall elections, and the computers are being programmed so they can go in either direction.

I make that point to make sure that, again, passage of the bill before us today will not in any way commit the Legislature to passing the bill which I propose to bring.

It will just make it possible to be efficient and effective, and I would think that all members of the Legislature, regardless of whether or not they will accept the proposed new bill for restructuring, would in any event wish to make sure that there is an efficient and smooth operation in the electoral process in the event that bill goes through, So I repeat, it is proposed that the enumeration be such that will be available to go in either direction, either as the present law is, with the 12 municipalities in Metro, or as the law may be changed by this Legislature in the near future.

The proposal, therefore, is to relieve the municipalities within the Metropolitan area of Winnipeg of the responsibility of carrying out 12 individual enumerations in 1971, and that one enumeration be carried out at the expense of the Provincial Government. This means again, of course, that the municipalities involved will be saved the cost of enumera tion which they normally have, and I expect the costs of the election in the event that the proposed bill carries.

April 15, 1971 107 (MR, CHERNIACK cont'd) .• ,. , The bill also provides that municipal elections in the Metropolitan area be postponed in 1971, and I just want to make clear that this applies only in a few cases in which there are terms which would otherwise expire before December 31st, 1971, and there are such cases. So all it would do is to make sure that existing councils would oontinue to operate until the end of this year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if when the legislation proposing reorganization of local govern ments in the Metropolitan area is introduced, and the Legislature sees fit to approve the legislation, it will be necessary to prepare for elections later this year.

Therefore, the enumeration process for the elections in October, which usually commence this month and next month, must be dealt with immediately and that is really the urgency of having this bill passed, And, as I stated, it in no way commits this Legislature to approval in principle of the government's proposal for reorganizing local government, and that's why I felt that I would be able to expect that there would be co-operation by the Legislature in having this dealt with speedily so that enumeration can be commenced without delay, and for that reason members who have looked at the final

section entitled "Co mmencement of the Act" will note that it is, in effect, a saving clause, If the legislation to be introduced later respecting reorganization of local governments is not acceptable to the Legislature, and is not passed by September 1, 1971 , then this bill is automatically repealed and the existing law respecting elections in October will apply, In other words, we would automat ically revert to the status qua.

That is why I am suggesting that this bill could be passed rapidly and in such a manner so that we could proceed with the necessary enumeration and be able, in any event, to be ready to react and deal with the situation regardless of which way this Legislature goes in dealing with the other bill. I therefore conclude with again appealing to the honour able members to assist us in dealing with this bill in the normal course, with due cons ideraticn.

I did have the opportun ity to speak to the Leader of the Official Opposition and put a copy of the draft bill in his hands on Monday, so that at least the Official Opposition has had the bill for some four days. All members have had the bill at least for, I believe, three days , and therefore I would hope that we could proceed with due and deliberate effective action so that it can be dealt with and enumeration can commence. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR, SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Riel, that debate be adjourned, MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): I would ask that this matter stand, Mr. Speaker, (Agreed.) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR, MACKLING presented Bill No , 15, The Lotteries Act, for second reading, MR. SPEAKER presented the motion, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the bill, I think, is very simply drawn and it's not a very intricate one. I think it indicates the nature of the structure that we deem necessary to provide for the holding of lotteries on a re gular basis within Manitoba. By way of introduction I would like to say, Mr.

Speaker, that as indicated in the remarks addressed to the Lieutenant-Governor, this government and this province owes a debt of gratitude to the late Maitland Steinkopf, who so ably supervised the Centennial proceedings in Manitoba, and one of his particularly enthusiastic projects was the Centennial lottery which this Legislature authorized to be held during the Centennial year, The Centennial lotteries were carried out in an extremely efficient and responsible manner.

They had a relatively small staff, handled a very large amount of money, and I anticipate that some time in the very near future it will be possible for a complete report to be tabled in the House, or at least published, confirming all of the particulars afte r complete audit process has been completed,

108 April 15, 1971 (MR. MACKLING cont'd) •••• As you know, there were three lotteries. There were sweepstakes involving gross sales to various organizations of $3 , 7 61 , OOO. They proved to be extremely popular. There were 434 organizations that participated in the several sweepstakes series, A, B and C. The moneys from gross sales were distributed approximately as follows: About 41. 27 perce nt as commissions and grants to the various organizations who sold lottery tickets. The various organizations' share of prizes comprised about 3. 90 perc ent.

In dollar amounts the amount realized by the participating organizations in sales appr oximated $1 1/2 million in co=issions, and participation in prizes approximately $150 , OOO. The winners ' prizes approximate 21. 14 percent of the total gross sales; in dollar terms about $800, OOO. Sellers ' pri zes , 2. 39 percent; in dollar terms about $90, OOO. The administra tive expense in the holdilig of the lotteries amounted to approximately 11. 8 or 12 percent; in dollar terms around $440 ,0 00.

The net income which will be applied in respect to the development of the Centennial Arts Centre is reflected in moneys advanced by government to the Centennial projects , the Brandon Centennial Auditorium as well as the Centennial Arts Complex, all told about 19 percent, about $700 , OOO. Participating or ganizations will, in effect, have realized approximately 45 percent of the gross sales, or approximately $1, 700 , OOO.

The funds earned by the participating organizations were applied toward 86 Centennial buildings, 194 parks and recr eational facili ties, 18 pioneer-day reunions ·and dinners , and 136 misc ellaneous proj ects. Some of the noteworthy projects that benefitted from their participation in the sale of Manitoba Sweepstake tickets are as follows : Winnipeg Rotary Clubs and their projects. A roof on the Rainbow Stage and other community projects. St. Paul 's High School Building Fund. The Fr iendly Club - this is in addition to the Chinese ·united Church.

The Associ ated Canadian Travellers , equipment for rehabilitation hospital. The Canadian Order of Fores ters , senior citizens housing. Boy Scouts 40th Winnipeg Troup, canoes and equip ment. The B. P.O. Elks, death detecting equipment. The Good Neighbours Club, comfort fund for the elderly. The. Birch River and District Wildlife Association, hunter safety program. Winnipeg Sertoma Breakfast Club , a halfway house for delinquent boys. The Blessed Sacrament Church, improving of the parish centre. Brandon Rotary Club, rebuild ing of Fort Brandon. The Waskada Lions Club, co=unity rinks.

The Kinsmen Club of stonewall, a workshop for retarded adults. The Rural Municipality of Strathclair , a history of the municipality. The Canadian Ukrainian Institute, a library extension. The Pas Rotary Club, a museum. Thompson Fish and Game, a club building, an addition and renovations. The Flin Flon Centennial Committee, centennial projects for 1970. The Dauphin Co=unity Centre; the Arena. Now these are, Mr. Speaker, just a relatively small number of some of the more significant contributions that participating organizations made through their participation in the Centennial Lottery Sweepstakes.

The purpose of the Act is to provide for a vehicle for the holding on a regular basis of lotteries within Manitoba on a very carefully programmed and organized and audited basis. The Act will cre'.lte a Manitoba Lotteries Co=ission, which will undertake, organize and manage one or more lottery schemes for the province, the affairs of the Co=ission via a board which will be established by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. All of the costs of the administration of the Act shall be paid for by the Co=ission out of the procee qs of the lotteries themselves.

Any net profit from any lottery scheme held under the Act will go to the Revenue Division of the Consolidated Fund, out of which, Mr. Speaker, payments are made and advances for the maintenance of Centennial buildings throughout Mani toba, Centennial Arts Centre, Brandon Auditorium, etc.

To illustrate the success of the Manitoba Centennial Sweepstake, one can note the extremely efficient manner in which the lotteries were carried out and the tremendous response that was noted by the general public to the holding of the lotteries , and lottery tickets were sold not merely within Manitoba, but there was a demand for participation in the lottery from citizens right across Canada.

At the present time there are an extensive number of lotteries being organized throughout Canada, in Quebec in particular a very eager and responsive group promoting lotteries there to the advantage of various cultural and sporting facilities and cultural activities within that province. It is our concern that the good work that was carried out

April 15, 1971 109 (MR. MACKLING cont'd. ) ••••• under the auspices of the Centennial Lotteries Commis sion would be carried forward this year and years forward, The various participating organizations and groups have made frequent enquiries of the government as to if and when a continuation of a provincial lottery would be possible, and I have given assurance of my undertaking to place before the House, at the earliest possible date,

an Act which would provide for the establishment of a Provincial Lotteries Commission. Mr. Speaker, I am most anxious that this House consider this Act and, if favourably inclined , provide that the Commission can be established as quickly as possible so that lotteries may be proceeded with this year. Many of the organizations who sold tickets last year are more than anxious to proceed to act in respect to sale of provincial lottery tickets again this year. As you know, Mr. Speaker, the amendment to the Crim inal Code which made the holding of lott eries permissible, delegated to the provincial Legislatures the right to , by law, pass

an Act establishing a provincial lottery. Additionally they gave the right to provincial administra tions to legalize or sanction the holding of particular types of lotteries and delegate that authority to municipal governments.

We have exercised, as quickly and as responsibly as we could, the authority that was delegated to us and we have established a Lotteries Licensing Board and they now are hearing applications in respect to a very large number of organizations who wish to hold lotteri es, Now, the establishment of a provincial lottery will in large part reduce the number of organizations who wish to hold a separate lottery for fund-raising purposes for their own particular organization or projects that they have in mind, and I hope that , Mr.

Speaker , through the intro duction or the continuance of a provincial lottery in a responsible manner that we will eliminate the extensive proliferation of lotteries that otherwise might take place. I mi ght say that the participating organizations are more than enthusiastic about the continuance of a provincial lotteries scheme, because it means that they won't be involved in the extensive amount of paper work, book work, accounting and so on that naturally has to be carried out if the society is both to be protected from those who mi ght otherwise wish to use the lottery vehicle as a form to get rich.

It is contemplated that the Provincial Lotteries Commission would hold approximately three lotteries per year on a projected revenue of approximately three and one half million dollars. It's anticipated that the three lotteries could center around a Manitoba Derby , the Grey Cup and perhaps the Canadian Briar. Mr. Speaker, the Act as it is before you will make provision for the introduction and control on a fair and regular basis of lotteries on an organized basis within Manitoba and the reports will be available and filed to the House.

I commend this legislation to the members of the House for early passage because it is important that if we are to proceed with provincial lotteries this year that early decision be had on this matter. As a matter of fact , I regret I wasn •t able to introduce the Bill a month earlier.

The Legislative Session which ordinarily would have occ urred in March, as you know, was postponed to the 6th and the administration that had carried out the Centennial lotteries, the key staff have been retained doing a clean-up operation in respect to the Centennial lotteries and the administrative staff are ready, the key people are ready to go in respect to the new lotteries once this legislation is passed. I would ask that the members of the House cooperate in dealing with this particular piece of legislation on an urgent basis. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ?

The Honourable Member for Charles wood, MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): I beg to move, Sir, seconded by the Member for Gladstone , that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried,

110 April 15, 1971 MR . SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Logan and the amendment thereto by the Honourable Le2.der of the Opposition, and the further amendment by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: Mr . Speaker, first of all I wish to thank the honourable members for allowing me to delay my contribution until today . Then I would like to congratulate you, Mr. 8Peaker, on attah1.ing the office of Speaker for the ciirrent session, and most likely some further sessions .

I also wish to congratulate the mover and seconder to the Speech from the Throne . I felt their speeches were rather short but they were to the point and I certainly enjoy ed hearing both of them. Naturally we will be hearing further from them during the course of the session� I have no doubt about that . .I also wish to congratulate the Premier who is not in his seat just now on winning the two by-elections . The Minister of Labour is listening now and I wish to congratulate the govern ment on winning the two by-€le ctions . That doesn't mean that I agree with the government on everything.

I think they'll hear from me l:;tter on on various points, but anyway, now that they have a majority, certainly they are responsible for any actions and any legislation that will come forward from their benches and we hope that it will be legislation that we can live with and that we can endorse. However, I have my reservations seeing what is coming forward already .

I &!so wish to congratulate the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre who said he felt left out ye sterday on not being congratulated on his position, and I certainly wish him well and I hope that he will do a good job for us. -- (Interjection) -- I'm getting some coaching here on the side . We already have heard a number of members make a contribution and speak on the Speech from the Throne and the motion of non-c onfidence and the amendment thereto which is before us at the present time . I feel that the government is still following very much along old lines.

In my opinion, they are continuing with too many of the policies and practices of the previous government, and I certaillly want to point up certaill things during my contribution that I am going to make. -- (Interjection) -- Some. of them are not so good . We'll come to that as well. I feel that some of the main points don't receive enough attention in the Throne Speech.

I feel that our greatest point and our greatest thing that needs correction here in Manitoba is the economy right now, and I'm not satisfied with what the Speech contains as to what will be done during the course of this session to correct this situation. I feel we'll have to do more than what is presented to us and maybe I can make some constructive suggestions a little later as to what I would like to see done . Already we see that the committees will be made smaller this year, at least this is the intent of the government. I don't see the reason for this. Do the government member s want to be more inactive ?

Are they reluc_tant to serve or do they feel that the course of the govern ment is to be determined by the Cabinet and that there is no point in having these committees function at all . I don't think it is laziness on their part, at least I don't feel that way, but what are the reasons then if you want to make and you want to curtail activities on behalf of the government members. In looking over the Throne Speech I certainly cannot go into great detail in commenting on all the different matters raised. I will restrict myself to certain matters; one naturally is agriculture .

I feel that the agricultural industry is the basic industry here in Manitoba, one that we •ve had all these years and I hope it will continue, and one where I would like to see much more prosperity. I was not on the committee, Agricultural Committee this past session and therefore I was not able to participate in all the committee meetings. I did attend some of them on my own behalf, at my own expense too, just to see the reaction by the people in the province , to know just what the situation actually is and how desperate the farm economy actu ally is at the present time.

I think one need only take a look at the many bankru ptcies that are occurring presently that the situation is very severe . We find farmers going broke and many of these have large loans with the Agricultural Credit Corporation. As a re sult of this, I think it brings into ques tion some of the actions of the Board, of this Credit Corporation. Were the loans not made properly ? Were they made too easy ? Were they encouraged to make too large a loan for the amount of land they operate and the amount of the return that they could expect from their particular farm ?

I think these are questions that probably were not weighed rightfully enough,

April 15, 1971 111 (MR . FROESE cont 'd.) ..... because it has come to my attention that in some cases the y had probably a half

section of land, a new home was constructed at close to $30, OOO. and that the total borrowings were around $80, OOO. 00 . Well , any farmer can figure that out , that with a half

section of land he can never make things go with that amount of borrowing and to pay the interest on that amount of money at the high interest rate presently in effect . This probably, when I mention that we should tak e a look at the policies that these boards are following , the procedures, whether this not also applies to the Development Fund as well , and that we should tak e a good look at that board as well . I haven't studie d their actions as closely . I intend to do some more work on them and the n later on, naturally when we will be dealing with estimat es, to discuss this in greater detail .

I thin k the Federal Government 's LIFT program has had its effect on the Manitoba economy. I for one , and I think this applies to many farmers, have not delivered as little crop in a given crop year as I've done this last year, and I' m sure this must apply to many more farmers in Manitoba and that this in itself is a reflectio n on the way the economy is going in Manito ba . No special quotas - in othe r years we had special quota s, you could deliver durum wheat or other crops on special quota s; nothing of the kind this year.

No open quotas - the Wheat Board may raise the quota on barley to 20 and on oats to 30, but if you haven't got assigned acreage the increase in quota will make no difference . Therefore, unless you have assigne d certain acreage to these crops the increase in quota will have no effec t. So I think these matt ers have affected the amount of money that has come into the farmers' hands and that this has been curtaile d. I think another thing that we should take a serious look at is the margins that our farmers have in raising and selling these various crops . The University of Manito ba , through Dr.

Craddock, have brought out a report on inter -regional costs of producing crops in Western Canada and they claim it costs $1.4 4 to produce a bushel of wheat in the Red River valley on summerfallow . This is based on a ten year average with a 23 -1/2 bushel per acre , so that on the basis of that, if the farmer gets $1.2 6 at the elevato r now and can only sell six bushels an acre or five bushels an acre , which is the present quota , it falls far short and he 's definitely unable to pay his cost of operat ion . So these matters all add up and I feel that our Minister of Agriculture certainly should take note .

I'm just wondering whether he has made any repre sentation to the Wheat Board at all to see whether further deliverie s could not be made. There is a lot of open space in the elevator which is not being used. Why can 't the farmer deliver ? Why must he hold back his crop? I think greater attention should be paid by the government so that farmers could make their deliveries so that they could get the cash and stay in busine ss .

I for one do not want to discount the government's proposal for ass istance in the Throne Speech by way of providing funds for water supply and sewage to farmers under the new ARDA agreement. In various places in rural Manitoba you have to provide cist erns and what- not and this is costly , so that this could run you well between $1, OOO or $2 , OOO. Then , too, the dollar per acre announcement by the government, certainly I'll support it .

It was rather amusing though for this government to come out with a program like that because when the Honourable Mini ster sat in the opposition benche s he was denouncing this kind of program very badly. When Diefenbaker came out with the $2 . 00 an acre wheat, this was not the proper thing to do at that tim e when Mr . Uskiw sat on this side of the House . Now he follows their example irt doing the very same thing . I wonder whet her we should not rather have considered providing inland storage in Manitoba so that farmers could deliver more of their crop and sell it than to dish out money in this way .

We find that the government intends to promote marketing boards in this province and has already starte d to do some work in this line . To me, marketing bo ards are not the right thing . I feel by going in for these type of boards we are curt ailing markets, that if the market ing board does not do a job that it has set out to do· we will be worse off than before , because otherwise people are free to find markets on their own and to do the exploration on their own, but once you have a market ing board you are confined to deliver and to sell to that particular agency .

On the matter of setting up a Department of Co-ops, while I don't want to outright oppose it, I certainly question the government's belief in co -operat ive s because last year, because this is part of free enterprise , of the free enterpris e syst em, and last year when the govern ment brought in the automobile insurance they certainly didn't care too much about the co operatives involved in this insurance field . I felt that they could certainly have made use of

112 April 15, 1971 (MR . FROESE cont 'd. ) . . . . . this organization to assist them or probably take them in as a partner , but this was not done and these experiences lead me to believe that the government does not really subscribe and believe in the co -operatives and that they more or less subscribe to Crown corporations only where they can direct and set controls .

If large amounts of money are going to be spent in this way, I certainly feel that we should take a look at what has gone on in the past, because we have spent money in co -op projects of this type in northern Manitoba before, and from what I hear most of these are failure s and that they probably last a year or two and then they're out of existence and the money is gone. 1 certainly would like to hear from them about the experiences and whether this is not the case , because I have talked to people who were involved directly in this and this is the story they give. · Mr .

Deputy Speaker now, I have some other matters that "r wish to bring to the attention of this government. When the Throne Speech says, and I quote, "the portion of educational costs borne by property continues to be a considerable burden to the farm and residential property owners of Manitoba", and then they go about mentioning the input that they intend to put in through further legislation at this forthcoming session. I think this is an understatement because I think the situation is much more serious than what the government leads us to believe in the Throne Speech.

We have many farmers who had very poor crops yet the taxes remained. Many farmers were unable to pay them and others borrowed money to pay them. They were unable to pay them from their current crop revenue and therefore these tax arrears are build ing up . I have not had time to look through the two new bills that appeared on the Order Paper in connection with education. I certainly intend to do so and co mment further on them when they will come up for second reading. But, Mr .

Speaker, if the proposal of the government is such as has been relayed through the pre ss that monies will be made available again, additional monies, but only to the unitary divisions, I feel that this is a sad situation and that this needs to be corrected in no uncertain terms. In fact we as a province are receiving grants from the Federal Government which they call equalization grants, and if we get the se monies on the basis of equality then we should look to it that equality is also provide d at the local level in Manitoba and that these funds are distributed more equally.

On the basis of the reports, the revision of the tax field which has been suggested by the Premier and which he has mentioned on numerous occasions which should come about if it is .based on the press reports, then our area will not enjoy the benefits that will accrue to other areas and I feel that this is not only discriminating but it is discriminating on what already was done in the past. It's an addition to what has already gone before . It 's a widening of the disparitie s beyond the Conservative program that was brought forward in the '60 's.

Our areas and the area in the multi-district divisions have not received the benefits of the revenue tax . that was imposed or the so-called sales tax that was imposed by the previous government to which the people in these areas are contributing thousands and thousands of dollars yet reap very little benefit. The new textbook grant, or the grant that is being revised certainly shows up that there must have been a very large, disproportionate way of using these monies that were made available for textbooks.

If the average come s to $12 .0 0 a pupil, surely enough I know of many schools who use much much less and that just means that others must have used very consid erably more . Therefore, the districts and divisions that use the lower amount will naturally benefit because it will be based on a per pupil basis at the $12 . 00 per pupil grant. The $18 .0 0 per pupil grant that has been announced, I' m not sure - and I hope the Minister of Education will reply and give us a definite answer on this - whether this applies to unitary only. If it doe s, I just wonder who is in control.

Is it the Public School Finance Board who determines these policie s or is it the Minister of Education and the Public School Finance Board, because just yesterday I heard the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resource s say and I quote, ''We do not pass special laws for trade unions but pass laws for everybody, " yet here we pass laws which discrim inate so highly against certain people in the province .

I hope that you get your message across to the Minister of Education and see to it that we get better jµstice in this province because this will not be the last time that I' ll be speaking on this matter and it's not the first time -- (Interjection) -- Right you are, but it won't be the last · time either. . I rather expected that the Premier would exhibit a greater measure of fairness when he mentioned that he would eliminate the real estate taxes and make the revision, that this would

April 15, 1971 113 (MR . FROESE cont'd.) . . . . . apply equally to all areas in the province , but instead we are now just perpetuating a wrong that was already brought into being some time in the '60' s . And not only are we perpetuating it, the disparity has widened.

We 're increasing it and I sure can't see how this government who claims to be so fair , so open , so just, that they will bring in a measure of this type and bring about this discrimin.ation to certain areas of the province so that certain young people and certain students will not be able to get a fair share of educa tion and will not get the same services provided to other are as. They can go to Ottawa . . . MR .

SPEAKER : I hate to interrupt the member but I do think that the other members could keep their conver sations down to a dull roar and then we 'II be able to hear what the Honourable Member for Rhineland has to say. Sorry. MR. FROESE : From time to time we find our provincial governments going to Ottawa to the Dominion-Provincial conference s and they're crying about disparities, regional disparities, that the Ottawa government is practising wrongs in certain areas not giving them the same funds with which to develop their area, yet here in this province we 're findin g they're doing the same thing.

They can go to Ottawa and cry on one hand that they are doing not a fair job and they're coming back and practising the same thing over again. I certainly hope that this will be taken into account and that some improvement will be brought about so that we will find an alleviation to the multi-districts as well in Manitoba . There is some other things mentioned in the Throne Speech. One is the matter of setting up a mineral exploration company, and here again I find that this concept is actually not a new one. The previous administration brought in the Regional Development Corporations under the Roblin Government.

This is actually the same concept and I have difficulty to see how the Conservatives can actually criticize the present government in doing this because H's a matter of spending tax dollars in the case of the Regional Development Corporations at the municipal level for development. This is actually pure socialism. Now it means that there is a manda tory requirement to invest on the part of the public and I feel that I cannot accept this and I will always fight this. I certainly don't mind development, I' m all for it, but I feel that this should be on a voluntary basis.

This should never come from tax money . -- (Interject ion) The Honourable Member for Lakeside makes mention here that I should not pick on them . Well, I heard the Honourable Minister of Mines speak last night that the parties from this side should coalesce Well I certainly would like to see that happen too so that our party would then form a real alternative on this side. A ME MBER : Make it a monopoly Jake and we 'll join you. MR . FROESE : Good. I think this might help us sooner than you know, that there might be people coming over .

I always question the principle to bring about force , or to force people to pay taxes for a purpose of this kind. I have difficulty reconciling myself to this principle , because in other terms what it means, it means that we are doling out private industrial wel fare. It's welfare that is expressed in a need and I certainly cannot subscribe to it and I don 1t think I will for some time . There are some other connections in case of the Development Corporations . I certainly have some very great reservations about this and about these corporations because I feel that they're fast becoming political machines.

In my riding that's what it is, nothing else, it's a political machine. I also question some of the policie s that they endorse and certainly I would have great re servations in accepting some of them . I think what is needed here , definitely needed, is a review of this whole program and check into this. I think in some of the briefs that I got from the government news there was mention made of this, that this would be reviewed. I' ll have to check out on them to make sure whether this is cor rect or not.

I' m wondering now when the government starts up this mineral exploration company whether they're not using the same procedure as a launching pad for their same political purposes and same political gains, while the money that will be made will not be also used in this way. If it 's good for the people no doubt the people will probably not oppose, but, on the other ha nd, if it should go the other way certainly the government would hear from them. Then, too, I would like to hear from the government just how much will be contributed under the ADA grants for this government venture .

We have seen that they are contributing large amounts to Churchill Forest Industries. Has the government made application or have they requested aid from the Federal Government for this exploration company and how much ? I cer tainly feel that this is behind this government venture that they are proposing. After all, if it wasntt for the ADA grants what wmµd our Regional Development Corporations be today?

114 April 15, 1971 (:MR. FROESE cont' d.) ... .. I think they would have been a flop because this is the only thing that has really helped them to progress and bring about development. If it wasn't for the ADA grants and some assistance that they got from the local credit unions and local sources of funds, we would not have seen the development at all and I think, and I would like to hear from the Minister of Mine s and Natural Re sources whether this is not the plan that they have, to ask the Federal Government for grants through this particular program for this venture .

I.under stand that private or voluntary subscriptions will not be allowed on behalf of the people of this province to this venture so that it will be · strictly government-run and capitalized by the government and come from tax money. There is one thing thaf I certainly agree arid that is that I think we have too many oc casions like this where claims have been made, wh ere people have gone out prospecting, .. companies and so on, that they've made finds and that they are at a later date to be compen sated once these finds are developed, but they never come about, the development doesn't come about.

I feel that in the se cases where development does not take place within a certain period of time that these claims should revert back to the Crown. I don't know at the present time just how much time should lapse, but certainly this should be debated and this should be agreed to at some future date. I certainly feel very strongly on that point and that changes should be made in that regard . I don't really know how much time I have left, but one thing I don't see mentioned . . . MR . SPEAKER : The honourable member has eight minutes. MR . FROESE : Thank you.

I don't see mentioned anything about drainage in the Throne Speech and I think this is a very important matter in Manitoba . It's not only confined to my area, I know there are other areas in the province and I feel that this government is not at taching sufficient importance to drainage in this province .

We see too often that farmer s' crops are lost, not only crops but all the soils are damaged, they sit there waterlogged for· long periods of time, the soil gets sour and it 's unproductive, and I feel that we should be spending more money in this direction. -- . (Interje ction) -- If it doesn't take too long. to answer. HON .

SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Re source s and Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster): ... the honourable member whether he has any difficulty reconciling the fact that all of the people of Manitoba, including those who don't have farms and including those who live on high dry land, should be required compulsorily to pay for land which is suf fering by water damage . MR . FROESE : Mr .

Speaker , we have drainage districts, or have had in Manitoba, and I certainly would like to see that, that we have drainage areas for that matter, so that people in a given area that wanted drainage and wanted it badly, that they could get it . I think it 's necessary and it's essential that we provide this service for them and give them this protec tion because the situation at Gretna right now is a very bad situation. For the third consec tive year now the people in that area have had to dike along the stretch of highway and a stretch of other road going up to the road leading into the town.

Because this was government property, all they could do was put a dike on it and later on remove it . The stretches that they had control over as a municipality, these were properly diked and raised so that there was no trouble , but here we have a quarter mile of road owned by the province and where the province do nothing about it. The village is now subject to flooding each year and each year they have to put up a dike and I think this should be corrected.

If nothing else is done, this one thing should be corrected. -- (Interjection) -- The water comes from the Pembina which flows into the United States at a point just south and west of Haskett, goes into the United States and then the banks of the Pembina overflow and this is the water that comes up to the border and which is causing the trouble . Well, I don't think it's a joking matter because the towns of Altona and the Village of Gretna are receiving water , are receiving their water supply from Neche and the Pembina River provides the water to the Water Supply Board to provide the water for these towns .

I think we should make sure that whatever dealings are done, they are done on a good basis with our neighbour here because we have agreements that we have to honour and that we expect them to honour, and I feel that we should stay on friendly terms with them and do our share to correct this situation. We find that there are other areas in my riding, the Hespeler drain, a dike was con structed last year in the upper reaches and here again I think the _..:. (Interject ion ) -- No, the water cannot be contained. It was built too small. The dikes are too low; they are

April 15, 1971 115 (MR. FROESE cont' d.) ..• .. overflowing. They diverted the water of another creek into the Hespeler so that you have double the amount of water in this particular drain and again -- (Interjection) -- it's not a joking matter either , because the government lost a brand new bridge worth at least $50 , OOO at Plum Coulee . It was washed away, and there are three other bridges that are ready to collapse - the bridge on Highway 14 at Plum Coulee is sagging and crumbling; the other bridge between Rosenfeld and Altona on the channel there , it 's a one lane traffic right now.

It 's damaged and I feel that this government better take a good look at some of the programs that they are doing and making sure that the money that is being spent is spent in such a way so that it isn't completely lost. I feel that we better take a good look at some of the programs that you are doing and make sure that the money is well spent. I find that in connection with the Pembilier Dam this government is not taking any action. We find in the Cavalier Chronicle of Thursday, April lst, it says "T. . . Named President of Pembilier Project" . They have reorganized; they have set up their committees.

They are the ones that are pushing a dam on the Pembina which would certainly help us here in Manitoba as well. If this dam came about we would have flood protection to a large degree ; we would have a better water supply to these towns of Altona and Gretna; we would have recreation facilities; and we would have water for irrigation. I feel that this government is not doing the job that they should in this connection. I-would like to hear from the Minister on this because we haven't yet heard what their actual stand is in this matter . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member has three minutes. MR.

FROESE : Thank you . -- (Interjection) -- Oh, the Honourable Member for St. Boniface says I haven't said anything about my philosophy on the economic system, and I think I really should because I cannot see how a government like this, who does not subscribe to the free enterprise system which is controlling the money system in Canada, how you can sub scribe to your philosophy on this bankrupt system that we have . You as a government have to go hat in hand to the financial establishments and ask for money time and again, and you will be doing it this year, and yet you still subscribe to it .

Why don't you go to the Bank of Canada which is an organization instrument set up by the Government of Canada for that very purpose , to provide the funds for the people of this country. I feel that the sooner we do this the better . The former Minister of Finance, Mr . Gurney Evans, said he definitely would take this matter up at the time that he was in office before they were defeated. -- (Interjection) - No, that was not the reason, and I' m sure that because the Bank of Canada has made provision for just these type of loans that we could be making and making them at cost .

There is no reason why we should be paying these enormous amounts of interest that we are and I' m sure that once we get our Es timates that the amount required to pay the interest on the debt of this province will be increased very sharply from last year because of the additional borrowings, because of the increased rates of interest . I feel very strongly about this . I' m sure that we could do wonders. Under Social Credit the only restriction we would have as to development would be the amount of work that the people could do . That would be the only restriction .

It wouldn't be the restriction of whether there was the money available or not. Certainly in the field of housing I would like to see that every couple in the Dominion of Canada should have a right to a home of their home and the money be provided at cost , which could be and would be le ss than one percent, because to make this available doesn't even require one percent of interest . On that basis we could do wonders for the people .of Canada and no doubt I' ll be making further remarks on this. MR. SPEAKER : The honourable member's time is up . The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR.

PA TRICK: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . When one takes

part in a Throne Speech debate it seems customary in this House to usually pay respects to you, Mr . Speaker, for being the guardian and protector of the rules of this House and I should like to do the same at this time. I also wish to extend my congratulations to you for being nominated for the highest office in this Assembly and I want to wish you luck. Mr . Speaker, it is also customary to extend words of congratulation to the mover and seconder of the Speech in reply. I believe that they gave a good account of themselves.

How ever, I could not agree with the content of the speech of the Honourable Member for Logan, particularly in respect to total amalgamation. I know that the two new members who were successful in the by-elections have not taken their seats as yet, but I congratulate both of them on their victory and hope that they will find

116 April 15, 1971 (MR . PATRICK con t' d.) ..... their work in here interesting and I trust that they will be able to fulfil the promises of the government that were promised in the constituencie s. While I am extending bouquets, Mr . Speaker , at the present time , I would also like to say that there are some Ministers in the government are easily approachable and perhaps one Minister, the Minister of Youth and Education, I know that it took some persistence from many organizations , but I congratulate him for giving in and providing the new schoola, the vocational school in St .

James-Assiniboia with an elevator . I know that it took some time from various organizations, the Canadian Paraplegic As sociation, the Society for Crippled Children and Adults and.various organizations of that type to convince the Minister , and I' m glad that he saw that it was required beca use the courses that will be provided in that institution, many of the handicapped people will be able to take these courses in that place and I think it was the rig}J.t decision, so I wish to extend my compliments to him at this time .

Having observed these pleasant courtesies, I wish now to come and deal with the speech that is before us . I will not try to deal with all points raised in the Throne Speech but I will try and come to grips with at least a few points. May I say that the Member for Portage la Prairie has covered it quite extensively, was quite long and covered most of the points, so I would only be repeating some of the things that he said. I was pleased to hear the government promises to do so much for the people of Manitoba and it would appear that our province is in for a great deal of activity inall areas of human endeavour.

But, Mr . Speak er, when one has been a member here for at least a few years or as long as I have, you come to wonder if the Throne Speech is really the actual and the real blueprint of any government. I would like to make some of the ref erences and I would quote -- the Throne Speech mentions and I will quote: "My government proposes that existing piecemeal social legisla tion should be transformed into a integrated income security system.

" I simply ask the ques tion, has the government done a review of all their welfare and income security measures and can we speculate that what the government has in mind is a guaranteed annual income ? Mr . Speaker , this would be a major step forward, the provision of an in come floor for all our citizens from which they can work their way out of a welfare dependency, but I don't believe this is a complete solution because even at the highest level payments under the guaranteed income could never supplement for a regular wage .

If a guaranteed income would reach a meaningful level, $3, 600 for a family of four, this will cost a lot of money, millions of dollars of new public funds which can only be bound to increase taxes on the middle eco nomic group. The guaranteed minimum income is much desired and talked about, but I' m inclined to believe that we cannot go it alone. I feel that the Federal Government must take the leadership in this area and it will have to be a joint partnership before the arrangements can be implemented.

But if the government is serious in improving the lot of many, particu larly those that are be low the poverty line, I promise the government our full support . Mr . Speaker , the Throne Speech makes reference to facilities for elderly and infirm citizens. I believe that I have talked about this almost on every occasion that I had an oppor tunity during the Throne Speech debate and on other occasions, and I wish to deal just for a few minutes with the need for re sidential facilitie s for physically handicapped people .

It has been outlined on numerous occasions and recorded in minutes of various agencies and housing organizations, but there has been no progress and no action by the former government or the pre sent government in re spect to housing for the handicapped people . Since the Second War there has been rapid progress in rehabilitation of handicapped individuals, but no rehabilita tion program for the disabled can be brought to a successful conclusion without the provision of suitable acc ommodation.

Many disabled are left to fend for themselves in situations where their disability is magnified beyond reasonable limits . They are often unable to practise the self-care methods applied by rehabilitation programs and their dependancy is increased to the point of undue hardships for themselves and their families. Society today is quite conscious of the importance of adequate housing in relation to the physical, social and ec onomic health of the community.

Some attempts are being made to meet the needs in terms of urban renewal and substantial housing for thenon-disabled and through. senior citizen projects for the elderly, but very little is being done to make available for younger disabled persons' housing which incorporate the physical facilities to meet the special needs and at the price they can afford. The cost of a custom-built home is out of reach of the majority of the disabled people whose earning power has be en cut by their limita tions.

April 15, 1971 117 (MR. PATRICK cont' d.) How big is the problem? Mr . Speaker, the size of the problem I believe is quite great. ThereJs sufficient evidence to show the large numbers of handicapped persons who do not have adequate housing. The Canadian Sickness Survey states that 7 .1 percent of the population reported permanent disability and 3.1 percent listed severe and total disability which required confinement to a wheelchair .

The National Re search Council in its supplement, "Building Standards for the Handicapped, " in 1965 stated "One in every seven Canadians has a perma nent physical disability or infirmity. The current case load review of the paraplegics in Manitoba showed about one-half of the clients have inadequate housing. It is evident there fore that facilitie s to meet the residential care needs of the disabled must encompass a wider range and a most urgent need now exists for hostel accommodation for those who are capable of looking after themselves but require communal facilities for meals and recreation; and (

b) a half-way house, which is temporary accommodation which provides an intermediate step between hospital and the community." My concern is when will this government give these people a chance ? · If you care about people, I say please act now and give these people an opportunity in life. I' ve been asking for this, Mr . Speaker, for the last four or five years and perhaps longer . Another point I wish to deal with at the present time is student unemployment .

I realize that greater effort will be required if jobs are to be provided for the increased number of students seeking work this summer, but all government departments as well as industry and labour should co-operate in the important matter of student employment. I don't believe that this government has shown the leadership required and has done very little to assist these students. I under stand in most other provinces assistance is provided to student placement agencies on the campuses and I under stand this assistance is quite substantial .

The results are that many students are placed or find work in their own province . The case is not so in Manitoba. I understand that not too many find employment in the Province of JVanitoba . At least half of them find employment in other provinces of Canada . The Manpower survey based on student summer employment shows governments of all levels provide jobs for close to 30 percent of the students; some 62 percent found jobs in private industry.

I hope the Minister of Youth and Recreation will provide us figures, what percentage of university students found jobs in a government department and how many of these have found jobs in the Province of Manitoba. -- (Interje ction) -- That 's right . Mr . Speaker , I wish to make reference also on another point and I know it will be de bated probably at some length when the bill is before the House, and that is One-Cit y govern ment for the Greater Winnipeg area .

On June 24 , 1969, prior to the last provincial election , the Leader of the New Democratic Party stated that if elected he would set up a regional gov ernment with stronger powers than the present Metr opolitan Corporation. The Premier at that time further stated that the new regional government would take over and unify many of the serv ices now retained by the municipalitie s such as fire , police and planning. He stated that the regional council would not necessarily be the first step towards total amalgamation. He stated that the logical step at the present time to take was a regional government .

I wonder what changed the Premier 's intention, and I don't argue that he has not the right to change his mind. In my opinion, total amalgamation will make government more remote to the people, with power held in the hands of an executive committee . I cannot see what powers community committees will have. They will have no power except to supervise the budget already ap proved by the central committee.

The central committee can easily be dominated by the Winnipeg Council, and the NDP plan for centralization of all powers in one central council represents a change which many knowledgeable people and experts believe will cause a dramatic increase in the cost for government within the Greater Winnipeg area, re sulting in an extra tax hike and causing a drain of provincial fiscal resources away from dealing with some other most important areas .

Some knowledgeable people estimate an eventual cost at $18 million to $20 million per year, or 17 mills on property tax, not taking into account any growth in services nor inflation cost increases. Now, the government plan is also retroactive, since it makes every area city throw all of its assets and liabilitie s into a pot with no credit being giv en to citizens who, through years of paying taxes, managed to create a substantial community asset. For example, st. James Assiniboia will cer tainly be penalized probably much greater than any other area city within

118 April 15, 1971 (MR. PATRICK cont' d.) ...•. the Greater Winnipeg Area . -- (Interject ion) -- Well, not in relation to the re serves that the St . James-Assiniboia has. Mr . Speaker, the point that I wish to raise, the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources on several occasions during this session, early session, has made reference that the Liberals have supported total amalgamatiOn and now we have changed our minds, and he was trying to make a big joke out of it .

First, I wish to advise the Minister there was no per capita cost studies made until the Boundaries Report was made available , which showed per capita cost for services is much higher for a larger unit than for a smaller, unit. I am happy to say that the Liberal party did change its mind, its po sition, when it re ceiv ed all the facts . I think of the Liberal party as a party where there are diverse opinions, where there are opinions generally received and easily sought. We think of the Liberal party as problem-oriented not formula-oriented .

Liberalism is a political attitude rather than a doctrine, and Liberals reject dogmatic reproach . We are against any formulas. For the Minister of Mines and Natural Resource s' benefit, I picked up a Webster 's Dictionary which I have on my desk here, and I looked up the meaning for his benefit, and the definition of a Liberal is described as follows: "giving freely; generous; ample; unconfined; tolerant of views differing from one's.own; favouring reforms or progress; open-mindedness to ideas that challenge traditions and established institutions.

" -- (Inte rjec tion) -- Well, if he wants to, I also can give him the benefit -- I looked up in the dictionary, I still have it in my desk, as to what a Social Democrat is, or Social Democracy. Webster 's.

It 's the House dictionary and this is what it says about Social Democracy: "politicaLmovement advocating a gradual transition from Capitalism to Socialism." Then I looked up Socialism and under No . 1, "any various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of means of production and distribution . 2 (a) , a system or condition of society in which there is no private property; (b), a system of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state; and 3, a system or condition of society in Marxist theory." Now I thought I' d just look up the meaning -:- if he wants to argue with the dictionary, well that's his prerogative, but , Mr .

Speaker , I will not take the time of the House to argue for or against at this time on amalgama tion. I have told them what I feel on the whole thing and I' ll have an opportunity to talk about it later . However , I do take issue with them at this time because when he spoke yesterday he told us about all the policie s that his government promised . Let me tell him something.

For the last four sessions or fiv e sessions in this House, I introduced a resolution asking for $2, OOO exemption for old age pensioners and this House has passed them, and let me tell you at the pre sent time , with your $50 .0 0 reduction to each home owner , I think it's a very small thin�, because in the words of the Honourable Minister of Labour, he would say it 's a teeny weeny thing that doesn't mean anything. I'll tell you what the $2, OOO reduction in assessment would have meant, at least $125 . 00 for a home for an average old age family, and I' ll tell you where the crisis develops .

When there 's two people living in a house it isn't so difficult, but if one happens to pass on and there is only one that has to pay the tax and maintain the household, it's pretty difficult on an Old Age Security and the supplement, and I think that these people must have some assistance and the $50 .0 0 is not sufficient . It's really crumbs, because I have had an opportunity to talk to people who came to see me and told me they cannot keep their household .

I have had an opportunity to talk to some of the people , constituents in the constituency of the Minister of Education, where from every cheque these people have to force themselves to put $2 . 00 or $3 .. 00 in a jar to be able to save for the tax. They feel they are going to be, forced out of their homes if they can't or will not pay their property tax, and to say that the government, they had all the solutions -- Mr . Speaker , the government at the time on this side, they said $2 , OOO exemption be given to everybody in Manitoba, which would have amounted to more than $25 million.

When I asked, anything that I asked in this House ,, the resolution in any other form , I think was possible . I know that the government can't do every thing, but what I asked I think it was possible and the cost would not have even reacheC'.am illion dollars not even a million dollars to give a $2, OOO exemption for an old age pensioner who was recei ving a supplement, and now you are giving crumbs to the old age pensioner s.

It's most unfortunate that, you know, a lot of these people that have worked hard at great sacrifice to their family themselve s to pay :':or their homes so they can live Gut the rest of their lives in

April 15, 1970 119 (MR . PA TRICK cont' d.) •.•.. their own homes, are forced out of them at the present time, and if anyone, I thought it was this government would at least be serious to some of their former promises which now, not that we can't perform and give ev erybody $2, OOO in the whole province, you can't even give it to the people that are really indire.n2eda nd dire straits . Mr .

Speaker, I wish just to probably say a few things on the labour code which the Minister of Labour said he would introduce, and I compliment -- I know that last year I asked that all the Labour Acts - I be lieve there are probably a dozen or more - be consolidated in one act so this would really simplify it for the employers, the employees and even the poli ticians here , because now you have got 15 or 16 different acts and it's pretty difficult, but I really would like to tell the Honourable Minister that in some areas, even the l.V'inister of Labour is certainly dragging his feet.

You know I was not surprised, but I couldn't believe it when I saw an

article in the Free Press where Lloyd Stinson was saying the thing that really defeated the Liberal government was because they wouldn't accept a 40 hour wage week when I proposed a resolution to the House . And this was some 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago . -- (Interjection) -- No I wasn't, but that 's what Lloyd Stinson1.3

article in the Free Press was saying, that the most important thing was that the Liberal government did not accept one of his resolutions and that was a 40 hour week. That was 20 years ago . That was his

article verbatim so you have to accept it . What have we got now ? The Minister is still dragging his feet; we still haven't got a 40 hour week in this province. There are other areas -- I believe that right now it's pretty simple. Let's face it. Your collective agreements call for 40 hour week, some of the large stores, department stores, the Bay and Eatons, they have 38 hour week -- (Interjection) -- Ye s they do, I went to the trouble to check it out .

The Federal Government labour code has a 40 hour week and I see no reason, because if we are going to keep more of our able and capable people in this province, I think this is legislation that's long overdue . Now there 's another area that I think the Mini ster - I hope that we 'll have some legisla tion - but he is certainly dragging his feet and that 's in respect to Workmen's Compensation . I think allowances for the widows in case of fatal accidents is not sufficient. I think these people are penalized.

When a man is alive he can get 75 percent of his total wage - that 's $7, 200 which is the ceiling - and if he should die the wife only gets about $125 . 00 . I think it's not realistic , I think it should be more than double that amount. I don't know if there will be any legislation this session but I hope that the Minister will tell us what he has in mind. I' ve just a couple more points . On education I feel there should be a per capita founda tion system which covers all costs involved in the normal running of a school .

I would have expected this government, this government would have changed the formula at least to 80 per cent, the foundation formula to 80 and 20 to be raised by municipalities, because when the Liberals had a resolution here some four or five years ago, when we said let's increase the formula from 60 to 75 and to 80 and to 90 percent in gradual stages, what did the Minister of Labour say then ? He said you are not doing anything to remove the tax from the property owner . That 's what you said. One hundred percent was your answer to it .

Now this is three or four years later and all we did was move five percent from 65 to 70 . -- (Interjection) - Okay, 70 to 75 . All we did is move five percent, and three or four years you had the solution, you said total cost . How much is that extra grant? If you take it on an average household, it amounts to very little, very little. MR. SPEAKER : Order please . MR. PA TRICK: Mr .

Speaker , ideally, I feel taxation for education as much as pos sible should be divorced from real property, and in keeping with the bilingual tradition of Canada the language of instruction I feel shall be in English or French within the framework of the Royal Commission. Language courses in languages other than French or English should be encouraged to ensure the multi-cultural concept of Manitoba . Private educational institutions must be funded for teacher grants and I feel that there should be no financial barriers as long as the se schools adhere to the Department of Education regulations.

I have just a couple more points and I guess I' ll have enough time, Mr . Speaker, the other point that I wanted to raise , we have a resolution on the Order Paper in respect to a university up north with northern studies, faculty of northern studies at Churchill. I feel that this is an area that as a province, or even the federal government have done very little in respect to northern studies of our resources.

We are developing our Hydro up north; we have development in International Nickel; we have the paper complex; there is going to be a pipe line right across the north, across the McKenzie, and what effect it will have on ecology. I

120 April 15, 1971 (:MR. PAT RICK cont'd.) ..... think it's time that we had a faculty of northern studies located in the north, where there would be some knowledge in the way of permafrost construe tion, in the way of road construction, and I' m sure that many students would find it a challenge to go to a p iace like Churchill or wherever the faculty of northern studies would be established to take these courses. I think that it's most important, I feel that we have made very little progress in the way of our north as to what some of the other countrie s have done.

I see that the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre is not in his seat, but I think his temper got the best of him yesterday when he got carried away with the FLQ and some other things. I don't know what point he was trying to make but I would like to just tell him that it is my under standing before the War Measures Act was implemented in Ottawa by the Federal Government that all four party leaders were called and all of them agreed -- (Interject ion) - that's the information I got, they all agreed and then one chang

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-3-6
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 3rd hansardpdf 6.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1dd8703a5e85df0b57d585a7bc4d63c57278b249

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