VOL. 3 NO. 84 PRELIMINARY UNED ITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 1981 S

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3509 EL - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simrns) : Order, please I refer hon. members to the point of order raised yesterday by the hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) concerning the tabling of a letter or document under the regular routine business item, Answers to Questions for Which Notice has Been Given. In reading Monday's Mansard, it is not clear to me in any of the answers where the Premier technically took notice of a question.

I may addincidentally,that some copies of the document had already been distributed but I pointed out at that time that the document was dis- tributd on behalf of one hon. member to the other hon. member as a practice which often occurs in this House and is quite in orders but that it was not officially tabled in the House as I had not at that time ruled whether or not it was in order I have reviewed previous Han- sards and I find that generally speaking the practice in our legislature has been that a minister who has been asked a question on a previous day has on occasion tabled additional information on the following day in further - reply to that previous question, but that has always been done, has been an accepted practice and normally no disagreement is shown.

However, in precise technical parliamentary terms, Answers to questions should be the period allowed for ministers to respond to questions which they have deferred or taken notice of. In order, therefore, to keep within our practice the simplest way to resolve the point of order would be to ask at this

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3509 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : time if there is agreement for the hon. the Premier to table the document which he re- ferred to yesterday. Is there agreement? 'R HODDER7 No. MR. SPEAKER: I understand agreement has not been given. I refer hon. members as well to the point of privilege raised yesterday by the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). MR. PLIGHT: (Inaudible.) MR.

SPEAKER: Order, p1ease The point of privilege raised yesterday by the hon. the President of the Council concerning rules of procedure related to comments made by members after rulings have been handed down by the Speaker and secondly, the parliamentary rule that when the Speaker is standing or rises to preserve order he must always be heard in silence. Let me remind members first of all that Beauchesne is very specific in terms of providing the guidelines available for a Speaker in dealing with a matter of privilege and I should not have to repeat them.

They have been pointed out on numerous occasions in this hon. House. I simply say that my function is limited to deciding whether the matter raised is of such a character as to entitle a motion which would have priority over the rest of the Orders of the Day. And while I would have to rule in this instance that a prima facie case in my opinion has not been established,I want to further point out that a question of privilege is a question partly of fact and partly of law, the law of contempt of parliament. In that respect I would like to treat the matter in the realm of a question of order 925

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3509 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) rather than privilege in that a question of order concerns the

interpretation to be put upon the rules of procedure and is a matter for the Speaker to determine. So as the matter raised deals with the rules of procedure, I would like to deal with it as a point of order. q2c

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3510 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Sirnms) : Actually there are two matters that were raised, one with respect to comments that are made by hon. members after the Speaker gives a ruling on a particular point. And let me say emphat- ically that this is a matter which has on occasion been a matter of concern to me.And indeed I have brought it to the attention of hon. members in the past. perhaps not forcibly enough because it does not appear to have had the desired effect.

I think hon. members will agree. that frequently, especially in recent times,an hon. member has often commented on a ruling after it has been given by the Speaker. I want to state now to all hon. members and bring it to everybody's attention that that habit of making comments after a ruling is certainly out of order. This practice really cannot be accepted,and with respect to the matter I will agree that there was a point of order and I bring it to the attention of hon. members now because it is the Chair's intention to enforce this very important parliamentary rule.

The other matter raised referred to the authority that have been vested in the Speaker, and it is a matter which reflects clearly on the decorum and dignity of this House and all hon. members and certainly the way the parliamentary system is supposed to operate.

Let me quote frpm the 19th. edition of Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice as one reference, page 441 and it is entitled, 'Procedure when the Speaker rises'. 'Whenever the Speaker rises to interpose in the course of a debate he is to be heard in silence and any member who is speaking or offering to speak should immediately take his seatnor should members leave their seat while the Speaker is addressing the House. And the members who do not maintain silence or who attempt to address the Speaker are called

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3510 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : to order. A member who persists in standing after the Speaker has risen and refuses to take his seat when directed by the Chair to do so maybe either directed to withdraw from the House for the remainder of the sitting or named for disregarding the authority of the Chair.' Recently I have had to rise on numerous occasions because of frequent interruptions and exchanges. And we all know that certain exchanges and com- ments back and forth are certainly an accepted part of parlia- mentary practice and tradition.

And when a member who is speaking appears to be inviting the exchanges and not objecting to them,then the Chair will not intervene unless of course the House is in disorder. However,when these exchanges and comments become loud and consistent such as actually shouting from your seat,then the Chair will have to intervene. And I am sure that hon. members on both sides will agree that recently there have been some members who seem to be abusing this parliamentary courtesy and are being loud and continuous with their inter- j ections.

I think the Chair - and I know the members would want me to - is determined not to permit these types of irregular outbursts and will go out of its way now to protect the rights of the members of this House, and I know that I will have the support of the member3 of the House in that regard. This, of course, is all related to the dignity and decorum of the House and I have heard members often speak about the preservation of dignity and decorum in their speeches in the past, 27

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3511 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Sims) and I know you will insist in the Chair doing whatever is necessary in upholding the very essence of these parliamentary traditions. As I have said in the past, while the Chair has been entrusted with the responsibility of protecting the rights of the members of this House and of enforcing the rules,it is,iowever,a two-way street as members too have a tremendous responsibility, that of adhering to these rules and of adhering to the rulings of the Chair without debate.

Thus it is important for members to take their seat when the Speaker is standing, and thus the matter raised in the point of privilege yesterday by the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) has to be addressed. And I conclude therefore by quoting for hon. members Beauchesne's Fifth Edition, nage 38, paracTr'%hs 117, subsection (1), which reads in part. "The Speaker calls on members to speak and in debate all speeches are addressed to him. When he rises to preserve order or to give a ruling he must always be heard in silence.

No member may rise or remain standing when the Speaker is standing." Members should always address the Chair and take their seat when the Speaker stands and certainly one of the main reasons for that rule is to guide the temperment of the House and to try to eliminate the possibility of members debating with each other in a heated fashion during times such as Question Period. Adhering to this most important parliamentary rule I believe will assist in preserving the dignity and decorum of this hon.

House and I bring this matter of tradition and procedure to the attention of all hon. members and respectfully ask for your co-operation. And may I, while I am standing at the present time, invite hon. members to join with me in welcoming to the galleries a number of delegations and representatives from various women's organizations, church and labour groups in our Province. Welcome.

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3511 NM - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to inform this hon. House of the status of negotiations be- tween this government and the Government of Canada relative to transportation issues presently being discussed. Tomorrow, Mr.

Speaker, officials of my department are meeting with officials of Transport Canada in Ottawa in another attempt to resolve at least some of the very important transportation matters. From the Province's point of view,the main thrust of talks that have taken place to date has been funding for the continuation of the three year highways strengthening programme which concluded a year ago. All members of this hon. House are aware of the very poor condition of our trans-Island highway when compared to that of other provinces.

The improvements made under the recently completed three year programme were significant but they are really only a start on a much needed multi-ear programme to begin the highway, to bring the highway even up to a suitable standard to accommodate present and projected traffic volume. When the original three year strengthening programme was commenced in 1978,the federal government offered the R7

November 18,1981 Taoe'To. 3512 ah-1 Province a three-year first phase of a ten year programme that would be open for negotiation at the end of the first phase. In spite of extensive talks over the past several month,the federal government is unwilling to continue with this strengthening programme unless it is coincidental with agreements to reduce and/or withdraw some transportation services presently being provided by the federal government in this Province. During the talks conducted to date by my officials as well as myself ,during the three meetings with the Hon.

Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Transport),a wide range of other very important transoortation issues were brought forward and these included, (

a) continuation of the Labrador airstrip programme. MR. GOUDIE: Hear, hear MR. DAME: The need for airstrips in some thirteen isolated Labrador communities has been identified by Transport Canada's Air Administration now for a number of years. Over the past three years, airstrips have been built in Mary's Harbour, Makkovik and Main. A contract was recently awarded for the construction of an airstrip in Davis Inlet.

The Province has agreed to assume operation and maintenance costs associated with these four airstrips and, indeed, for the past year we have been providing the service on the three airstrips completed to date. Transport Canada wishes to make it contingent upon the Province's receiving any additional coastal Labrador airstrips, the acceptance of the fact that the marine coastal passenger service will be eliminated to communities North of Lake Melville and reduced to communities South of Melville upon completion of the airstrips. (

b) continuation of the ferry terminals agreement. In 1978 9 2fl

November 18,1981 Tape No. 3512 ah-2 MR. DAWE: the Province was obliged to assume responsibility for six intra-Provincial ferry services. As part of the negotiated agreement for the takeover, the federal government agreed to construct new or improved ferry terminals within two years on each of the six services which were:

(1) Bell Island,

(2) St. Brendans, (3) change Islands,

(4) Fogo,

(5) Greenspond,

(6) Little Bay Island- Long Island. To date the federal government has honoured its commitment on only two, St. Brendans and change Islands,of these ferry services. For over a year now the Province has attempted to have these terminals completed or else turn the committed funding over to the Province. This ferry transfer agreement together with the ferry terminal construction commitments were made long before the present budgetary ceiling or envelope funding aoroaches by the federal government - AN HON.MEMBER: That is not true now. MR. DAWE: - and the Province insists on the fulfillment of these commitments with no "trade off" strings aftached. MR. GOUDIE: Hear, hear MR. DAWE: (

c) Standard gauging of the Newfoundland railway. The Province engaged c.p. consultants Limited to study the operation of the Newfoundland Railway by Terra Transport and plot a realistic course of action to ensure the long term viability of the line. This study and its acceptance by the Province was completed earlier this year and it recommended the standard gauging of the existing rail line and indicated cost figures for accomplishing this upgrading over a period of years. The federal government disagrees with the Provinces estimates for performing this standard gauging and we have been attempting to commence 97R1

November 18,1981 Tane No, 3512 ah-3 MR. DAWE: a joint project between the two crovernments to see if our differences can he resolved and the standard gauging of our railway commenced. • It is important to note, Mr. Speaker, that all these issues are important in their own • right and their necessity for completion self evident. The federal government has made all these R2i7

November 18, 1981 Tape 3513 EC - 1 MR. DANE: into a package that is contingent on further discussions to cut existing services and level of subsidy.

The Province of fered the Government of Canada a mechanism through a Memorandum of Understanding that would provide the forum through which bilateral reviews and plans of transportation expenditures in this Province can be made, recognizing each government's particular responsibility and ability to pay, It is now obvious that the federal government wants no part of this Memorandum of Understanding unless the Province first agrees to accept reductions that Canada has already put in motiqn without provincial or public consultation.

If the Province were to agree to these reductions and trade offs without full knowledge of the facts and without full involvement through a joint planning process, it would be abdicating its responsibility to the people of this Province and this we will not do. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. DANE: Mr. Speaker, within the last few days we have seen a good example of the federal government's unilateral action in reducing transportation services in this Province. On Monday the Province was officially notified by C.N. Marine of the withdrawal of the M.V. Marine Cruiser from the North Sydney-Argentia service.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. DANE: Next year the M.V. Ambrose Shea will be utilized during the Summer tourist season operating from June 14th to September 11th inclusive. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Siniirts): Order, please! Order, please! 92

November 18, 1981 Tape 3513 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Transport Canadas directive to C.N. Marine means that the number of crossinas between North Sydney and Argentia will decrease from 132 to 78 and that passenger capacity will be reduced from 60,324 to 40,950, a decrease of 32.1 per cent. The capacity for automobiles will also be decreased but not to the same measure. Automobile capacity will be reduced by 17.4 per centwhich is still a substantial amount.

In previous years, with two vessels in service, passenger and automobile space was fully booked long in advance of the commencement of the tourist season. In addition, Transport Canada's latest directive to C.N. Marine to increase fares by approximately 15 per cent defies

interpretation. I fail to understand, Mr. Speaker, how Transport Canada can be so insensitive to the Province's requirements and aspirations that it would inflict upon the Province this double-barrelled blow. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please Order, please M.R. DAME: Mr. Speaker, my department has been attempting to deal in good faith with the Government of Canada to define the optimum transportation system for the Province but there has been a complete lack of co-operation displayed by the Government of Canda. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.

DAME: They have the knack of presenting the Province with a 'fait accompli' or taking unilateral decisions under the guise of consultation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please Order, p1ease Hon. members to my right will have an opportunity to reply to the statement as soon as

November 18, 1981 Tape 3513 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : we can get through it. I would ask hon. members to restrain themselves. The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DANE: Mr. Speaker, my department asked the federal Department

November 18, 1981 Tame No. 3514 SD - 1 MR. DAWE: of Transport to meet and discuss the following proposals. Number one, an immediate three-year programme to continue the strengthening of the Trans Canada Highway at a federal/provincial cost sharing ratio that is favourable to the Province.

A programme is needed immediately because of the deplorable condition of the highway and a favourable cost-sharing ratio is required because the scope of the upgrading programme is beyond the provincial fiscal capacity. - Number two, assurance that the federal government will proceed with its testing and evaluation of the Newfoundland Railway with a short-term view to reverse the decline in traffic volumes and a long-term view to standard gauging the system.

Since the railway is a statutory responsibility of the federal government, the Province should not be expected to make a financial contribution to this process. Number three, an immediate reversal of the federal plans to remove one of the two ferries on the Argentia/North Sydney service. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. DAWE: Number four, assurance that the federal government will proceed with its programme of airstrip construction along the Labrador Coast. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. DAWE: A moratorium on all federal plans to restrict the coastal shipping service.

It is our hope that Ottawa would join with us in a joint examination of the entire coastal service. Only after this review, and if it is found necessary, should any decisions regarding the rationalization a of the service be take. Number six, an immediate conclusion of the existing federal/provincial agreement for the federal buy-out of the intra-provincial ferry terminals in the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Slums) : Order, please: 9? R

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3514 SD - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAME: Number seven, in addition to the foregoing specific items, the federal government should abandon its 'fixed budget', 'trade-off', 'envelope' approach to transportation expenditures in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. DAME: It has been generally acknowledged, even by federal commissions, that the Newfoundland transportation system is significantly less developed than in the rest of the country.

To hold the line on federal expenditures and to sacrifice aspects of an undeveloped system for improvements elsewhere is tantamount to condemning this Province to a second class transportation system. I would like to make it quite clear that this government cannot and will not be a party to all 'envelope' approach which requires that we trade-off minimal services in one area for basic services in another. The rest of Canada has already transportation systems far superior to ours. Our Terms of Union gave Canada a constitutional obligation for many of its transportation expenditures in this Province.

These expenditures should not be part of the 'envelope' system. It seems, Mr. Speaker, that the approach by the federal Department of Transport to these matters is to have this Province' lose in areas of essential services to gain in others, and this philosophy, Mr. Speaker, is unacceptable to this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. S 977

November 18, 1981, Tape 3515, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKEP.(Sjmms) : The hon. the member for Bellevue has five minutes. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to make four or five observations on the statement just made. Number one, it is nice to see the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) got the opportunity to make this statement. Yesterday the Premier made a fisheries statement.

And, of course, last Spring in Hodges Cove, again it was the Premier and not the Minister of Transportation who went out to Hodges Cove and announced some paving and road projects which, of course, one would expect to be announced by the Minister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) issue MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. THOMS: What was going on in Bellevue at the time? MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order, please! MR. THOMS: What was going on there at the time? A by-election, was it not? MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, a second point I want to make is that it is difficult to make any indepth or very much of an indepth statement about this statement by the minister because it is six pages long and I just got a copy of it five minutes ago. So, as I say, it is difficult to say very much about it, not knowing until five minutes ago what the minister was going to have to say. Mr. Speaker, another observation I would like to make is that this, again, I believe, is typical of the way that this Province carries on its ft negotiations with Ottawa.

We are told that the minister and his officials will be in Ottawa tomorrow to negotiate and here we see the Minister of Transportation today doing some fed bashing and interfering, I suppose, with the

November 18, 1981, Tape 3515, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: negotiations before they even get started. Mr. Speaker, how much of what the minister just had to say is fact and how much of it is fiction and how much is P.C.propaganda is difficult to tell. Some of my colleagues on this side were shouting across at the minister that some of the things he was saying were untrue, especially as it pertained to the Labrador. I do not think that my colleague, for example, from Torngat Mountains(Mr.

Warren) would be bawling at the minister as he was unless he was basing his facts on facts rather than fiction, as the minister was doing. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion all I have to say is this, that we on this side are happy to see the negotiating team back in Ottawa tomorrow. We hope that something fruitful and useful comes out of the negotiations. However, let me say that.the construction season has passed now, the time is gone now, and the minister has a long and, by the way, a hard Winter to carry on and complete these negotiations so that we can have something substantial and concrete when the Spring comes.

It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial government did not put very much of its own funds into its own provincial a

Noverrther 18, 1981 Tape No. 3516 EL - 1 MR. CALLAN: roads this past season which would have given some em- ployrnent and would have stopped some of the construction companies from going and experiencing the bankruptcies that they have over the past several months. Mr. Speaker, I hope that neg- otiations go well and all I have to say is that I am certain that a Liberal Government in this Province would be in a much better position and would be looking forward to neg- otiating a far better deal thafi I am sure that the minister would get with his fed bashing and we look forward, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS:!

Hear, hear: 1R. CALLAN: and we on this side look forward to the day, Mr. Speaker, when we will have the opportunity to go and negotiate with Ottawa as a Liberal Government in this Province and the people can be assured that when we go we will go negotiating looking for the best possible deal for this Province and we look forward to that day as soon as the Premier has the intestinal fortitude to call a general election. flCaL 1LC.L MR. SPEAKER (Sirmns) Order, please ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Premier, Mr.Speaker, and it involves the Constitution and the re- quest from the various women's organizations in this Prov- ince as presented to the Premier. And as the author, as the 77fl

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3516 EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: person recognized nationally as the author of the new accord and the new constitution - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. THOMS: I wonder (inaudible) MR. STIRLING: As the - MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, p1ease Order, the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns). MR. STIRLING: As the author of the new con- stitution, can the Premier tell us why he removed women's rights from the Constitution? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKEORD: Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I am very bunthle at the most complimentary remarks from the Leader of the Opposition and the members of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear PREMIER PECKFORD: I find it very difficult to speak, Mr.Speaker, after receiving such accolades from the opposite side of the House. No doubt they have just entrenched for another ten years the PC Party into the Government of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear PREMIER PECKFORD: I thank the Leader of the Opp- osition. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh 9271

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3516 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, could we have order? MR. SPEAKER: Yes, on both sides of the House, please, order: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to read into the record, if I may, the following press state- ment that was issued this rriorning. t 9 27 9

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3517 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Premier Peckford announced today that the provincial government has indicated in a telegram to the federal government that Newfoundland supports the position that the override clause should not apply to

section 28 of the charter providing for the constitutional equality of the sexes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear'. PREMIER PECKFORD: "However, the Premier has confirmed his support of the federal government's position that the wording of the resolution, signed by the federal government and nine of the provinces, cannot be changed without the unanimous consent of all signators." "The British Columbia Government has proposed that

section 28 be excluded from the legislative override. The Government of Newfoundland supports this proposal." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heart MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sijmris) : A supplemementary question, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, it would be much easier if the author in writing it up did not take the women's rights away in the first place. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, why did they do that? MR.

STIRLING: Now can the Premier tell us whether or not it was his intention, as the author, to intentionally take away the women's rights or did it happen accidentally? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the record of this administration as it relates to equality of the sexes is well known. We are the government. It was this government and only this government that had the courage to establish a Status of Women Advisory Council on the concerns of women - 977

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3517 NM - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear PREMIER PECKFORD: - which has a budget, I understand - MR. THONg: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, p1ease !] PREMIER PECKFORD: - which has a budget.I understand' which is the embarrassment of many other wealthier provinces, who do not provide to their councils near the financial support that we do and we are very proud of that. I am proud of the work that the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) and other ministries have done as it relates to the affairs and the problems that are encountered by people, especially women, in the work force. The negotiations leading up to thern constitutional accord, as most hon. members know, was a difficult and trying one on all the First Ministers that were there. We came away from that meeting with an accord that was signed by nine premiers and the Prime Minister.

There has been since that day a number of negotiations by the delegations for those ten governments and through those negoations there were indications from a number of the governments of their concern about the whole question of equality of the sexes and the legislative override. We were not one of the Provinces who had any concerns about it and were eager to see no legislative override. However, there were others who did not feel as strongly as we did. Hopefully now, Mr.

Speaker, because of the negotiatons and talks that have gone on over the last couple of days,it will be possible for all the nine governments and the Government of Canada to agree so that we can include this in the accord and the resolution when it goes before the House of Commons. We fervently hope so. 7 7 L

Nov. 18, 1981 SOME HON. MEMBERS MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER(Sjmms) of the Ooposition. Tape No. 3518 OW - 1 Hear, hear: • supplementary, Mr. Speaker. • supplementary, the hon. Leader MR. L. STIRLING: I gather that the Premier is now saying that he and the other Premiers agreed to take this out of the constitution and it was not done accidentally, it was done intentionally. Now the Premier has taken very firm stands in the past.

Will he now take a very firm stance, supported by every member on this side of the House, that he will withdraw his accord unless women's rights are restored to the old rights that they had under the original draft of the Constitu- tion? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, obviously the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) does not understand and it is very difficult to get him to understand. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh PREMIER PECKFORD: The accord is signed by ten First Ministers. It was an accord agreed to by nine Premiers and the Prime Minister.

And I support the view put forward by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chretien) in the Government of Canada that that accord cannot be changed by one or two of the signators to it. That would be unilater - alism That would be totally wrong That would be arrogant. That would be breaking something that we agreed to sign and all the rest of it. So what has to happen now is negotiations so that this can be included without a legislative override. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have already sent a telegram to the federal government supporting the legis- lative override being removed.

We have already indicated it to the other provinces. .q77c

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3518 OW - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please Mow, Mr. Speaker, if the members of the Opposition a MR. THOMS: You are trying to get yourself off the hook. MR. SPEAKER: Order, p1ease PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, if the members of the Opposition were as supportive, now that there are people in the House on this issue,were supportive two or three weeks or two or three months ago on our Terms of Union as they ostensibly are now on this particular issue, we might have gotten a lot further. SOME HON. MEMEERS: Hear, hear PREMIER PECKFORD: Where was the Opposition?

Where was the Opposition on the Terms of Union? Where was the Opposition on mobility rights? Where was the Opposition on native rights? And where was the Opposition on wome&s rights before today? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the Premier stood up in this House the last time he tried to convince the galleries that what he was doing was in their best interest was the last time he brought in strike legislation. They booed him and walked out of the galleries.

Now unless he is looking for the same kind of booing again he should also tell the truth - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please You have a supplementary question? MR. L. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question.

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3518 DW - 3 4 MR. L. STIRLING: But it has been very provocative when the Premier abuses the rules - MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please Order, please! The hon. member is on his fourth supplementary and generally speaking there should not be too much

preamble allowed. I have allowed some and I would ask him now to address his supplementary question7please. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the Premier knows that eventually you will interrupt and therefore he provokes by going off into another subject. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, piease MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, we have established a number of things in the first two or three questions: one, that the Premier intentionally took women's rights out, it did not happen accidentally. Two, 9277

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3519 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: he does not feel strongly enough about it - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simrns): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - and the supplementary question, the Premier must have srnters so far up his rectum from trying to straddle the fence on his telegram - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please: MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is the Question Period and our classy Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) I think can on" get on and show his real class and ask a question and not make a speech. MR. NEARY: What is the point of order? MR. MARSHALL: The point of order is the hon. gentleman is making a speech, Mr. Speaker, and a bad one and in bad taste as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Well with respect to the point of order, I now direct the hon. Leader of the Opposition to please address his supplementary question. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. STIRLING: Do I take it, Mr.

Speaker, that the Premier is not prepared to say to the Government of Newfoundland or to the House of Assembly or to the people of Canada or to the women of Canada that he is prepared to withdraw his accord unless the original intention of the full protection of women's rights is put back in the Constitution? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. 977R

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3419 SD 2 e PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I regret that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) would take a low road on this issue and make the comments that he has made about me personally in trying to ask a question. I think it is too bad but I am sure we will let our performances speak for themselves. Mr. Speaker, I have signed in good faith, as have the other First Ministers of Canada, an accord. I am prepared to see that accord amended to take away the legislative override that is there as it relates to the equality of the sexes.

And I am willing to go further than that, Mr. Speaker; I cannot break a contract unilaterally myself ,but I am willing to go further than that as it relates this Province to show just how sincere we are on this matter. I am willing to indicate now that we will give in writing a firm and solemn guarantee as long as this government is in power that no legislative override would ever be used if in fact we are unsuccessful in getting that legislative override out before it goes to the House of Commons. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. STIRLING: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: I have a new question, Mr. Speaker, which will require a

preamble. Mr. Speaker, what the Premier has now said in accusing me earlier of not understanding, he does not understand that this is the very thing that the women and all the rest of the citizens in this country want to avoid - the right of a Premier,iho took away their rights by admission, now to say that he is going to guarantee something in writing. That is the very point that the women of this country, the citiz of this country want a Charter of Rights for. 977Q

t November 18,1981 MR. STIRLING: AN HON.MEMBER: MR. PATTERSON: oropertv act. MR. STIRLING: MR. THOM: Tape No. 3520 ah-1 Mr. Speaker, I have a - What is the question? I bet it is about matrimonial The question, Mr. Speaker - Ask the lawyers downtown, They make a fortune out of it. MR. SPEAKER (Sioms) : Order,please MR. STIRLING: Did tie Premier receive the advice of his Status of Women Council? Did he consult with them and what advice did he receive from them before he took the rights out of the constitution? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if it is worthy of an answer, reallv,hecause obviously fie Leader of the Omposition is trying to, you know, iq blatantly indicatinc that I have taken rights away from somebody. SOME HON.MEMBER: Oh, oh PREMIER PECEFORD: Here is the Leader of an Opposition who would not support us on keeping the rights that we have in the Terms of Union Here is the Leader of the Opposition who opposed us in having amendments on mobility rights. I suppose now the Leader of the Opposition tomorrow will suddenly get all excited about native rights. I have not heard him mention that today.

There is a great concern about that in the constitution as well. Let me just indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that there was an accord signed, a solemn accord signed between the Prime Minister and nine Premiers. We are trying, those Premiers and the Prime Minister,to change that accord with the agreement of all so that that legislative override does not apply to the equality of the sexes. I am cormnitted to that and I believe it fervently and sincerely and will do everything 7fl

November 18,1981 Tape No. 3520 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: I can to see that that legislative override is removed. If it is not removed now-I am just conjecturing -if some province still objects and we cannot change the accord, it is in that event that I am saying that we will as a government indicate that we will never exercise that legislative override as long as it is there in the f constitution.

And if it remains there,we will,after the constitution is patriated and we have it here under the amending formula of seven out of ten,work as hard as is humanly possible to see that legislative override is removed for all of Canada. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I take note that the Premier did not answer the question that, although aopointing a Status of Women Council he did not consult with them or take advice from them and he has not been prepared to say what their advice was.

Let me ask another question to the Premier that also deals with fundamental rights, fundamental rights completely under his control, not having to do with the constitution, The fundamental right of the people of Trinity-Bay de Verde to have a representative. And the Premier promised to have an by-election called in October or worember. MR. MORmN: It was your man resigned. SOiE HON7MBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please MR. STIRLING: Would he now tell us - MR. RUDDER: He called Walter Carters in a week. MR. STIRLING: He is on the record, very clearly on the record as saying - qi

November 18,1981 Tape No. 3520 ah-3 SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please: MR. STIRLING: - he calls them ouicklv. Would the Premier now tell the people of Trinity-Bay da Verde why he is delaying their right to have representation in this House of Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I note with a great deal of satisfaction that a number of years ago when the Leader of the Opposition with our representative in the federal cabinet made a statement that we were going to get a lot of money from the 1roer Churchill because of changes to the constitution, he was wrong. I note with a great deal of satisfaction that the Leader of the Opposition, when he came out and said our Terms of Union could not be changed, he was wrong. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.SPEAKER: Order, please: PREMIER PECKFORD: I note with a lot of satisfaction today, Mr. Speaker - MR. THOMS: (Inaudible) MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please:

November 18, 1981 Tape 3521 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): May I ask the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) to please restrain himself. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I note with a great deal of satisfaction now when he is wrong on women's rights that he now reverts to another course of questioning on a by-election in Trinity - Bay de Verde. I will decide and the government will decide when the by-election is called in Bay de Verde,and when we so decide we will inform the Leader of the Opposition and all members of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I think people are beginning to see the difference between the speech making that the Premier makes and his actual performance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: We will let his performance judge his actions. Now, Mr. Speaker, would the Premier tell us what it is that the people of Trinity - Bay de Verde would have to do toconvince him that they would like to have a representative in this House of Assembly, their most basic, fundamental right? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I am willing to stand on my performance if the Leader of the Opposition is willing to stand on his. I stood for the Terms of Union. We are standing for the offshore, we are standing for the fishery,and the Liberal Party of Newfoundland can continue to languish in the wasteland of politics

November 18, 1981 Tape 3521 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: in this Province if it does not soon support the government on those basic issues. I am very, very disappointed in the Leader of the Opposition and his party, who continue to lose battle after battle and soon the whole war will be lost for the Liberal Party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER (Sirnms) : Order, please PREMIER PECKFORD: Why do they not stand up and support the Terms of Union? Why do they not stand up and support - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please We will recess for five minutes to allow everybody to cool off. RECESS

November 18, 1981, Tape 3522, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms) Order, please: For the purpose of clarification,there would normally be twelve minutes still remaining in Question Period, but today being Wednesday, Private Members Day, the routine business, I according to Standing Orders, must end a four o'clock. I would just remind hon. members of that. We will proceed with Question Period. The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Premier in answering questions from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) in connection with including women's rights in the constitution mentioned that there were a number of Provinces opposed to having this included in the constitution, but the hon. gentleman did not name the provinces. Is the hon. Premier at liberty to state what provinces were opposed to having women's rights in- cluded in the constitution? And while he is on his feet, just to save me asking another supplementary, would the hon. gentleman tell the House what he thinks the chances are of getting the accord opened up, getting the other provinces to agree to have women's rights reinstated - MR.

HISCOCK: And native. MR. NEARY: - and native rights - in the constitution as they were prior to the First Ministers' meeting. So my number one question is, is the hon. gentleman at liberty to name the provinces? Personally I cannot see - it is inconceivable why anyone would be against including women's rights in the constitution. What problem, what excuse, what reasons would they give for being against it? I cannot think of one reason myself. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please:

* r November 18, 1981, Tape 3522, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: So I would ask the hon. gentleman if he would care to elaborate on that answer. MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all it is not women's rights into the constitution, it is equality of the sexes in the constitution, and that is a big difference, MR. NEARY: It is the sane thing. PREMIER PECEFORD: No, it is not the sane thing - AN HON. MEMBER: If it were all male you would not have the problem. PREMIER PECKFORD: - it is equality of the sexes.

I am not at liberty to name the provinces that are having difficulty with this. Suffice it to say that up until the accord was signed, in the couple of hours before it was signed, there were a number of provinces which opposed the principle of a charter itself, let alone some of the rights that would be accommodated by the charter, or included under the charter.

But I am not at liberty - I think it is fair, also, to say that most of the women's groups throughout the country who are lobbying on this matter, are familiar or know or have a good idea what provinces are the ones that have been difficult on this issue and are working to try to convert them to the cause, so to speak. The chances of there being some amendment agreed to by the nine Premiers and the Prime Minister on the question of equality of the sexes I think is good. It seems to me that it is quite possible in the next day or so that there will be a unanimous agreement by the nine and the Prime minister.

On the whole question of native rights, I do not know. There is an ongoing lobby in that area as well. For our part we have done a number

Nobember 18, 1981, Tape 3522, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: of things on the native rights side. First of all, we have endorsed through order-in--council, the government some months ago, the sition of 4 97

November 18; 1981 Tape No.3523 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the United Nations on that which therefore takes care of our support of aboriginal rights in the Constitution of Canada. We have done that up front some time ago and so we also support that. It comes as a surprise to some people because the constitutional debate got so waylaid with other things that right from the beginning we were one of the few provinces that supported the principle of a charter and wanted to get into the details of it at the beginning. We were one of the few. Our white paper supported that.

We had always supported the prin- ciple of a charter and it is in our white paper, if any of the hon. members care to just review it again to see. But to answer the member dir- ectly, I am not at liberty to disclose the provinces. I think it is clear to •a lot of people who are close to the scene the provinces who have been concerned and who have been a bit negative on this points The chances, I think are very very good for the equality of the sexes part becomming part of the accord. MR. NEARY: A final supplemeiltary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAEER (Sinims) : A final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier probably did not get the drift, did not get the point I was making. There was a change of government last night, for instance,in Manitoba and I would suspect that Manitoba was one of the provinces that objected to the equality of the sexes. 99

November 18, 1981 Tape NO. 3523 EL - 2 4 MR. NEARY: Sterling Lyon, as everybody knows,was very anti-constitution, very anti-charter of rights. Now he is gone, so now does the accord stand? How does that stand up now with the new NDP Premier in Manitoba who no doubt, Mr. Speaker, will agree with the equality of the sexes being included in the constitution? Does the accord still hold now-because there are nine signatures on it including Mr. Lyon's - or can it be opened up again because Mr. Lyon is gone with a new Premier com- ing in? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier.

PRENIEP PECKFORD: Number one, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says I did not get his drift. I am afraid he did not get mine. I realize the Manitoba election last night,and what I was trying to say to the member for LaPoile- he was so eager to wonder whether I got his drift, he was not listening to mine -and that is that what I was really saying to the hon. member for LaPoile was that whilst there had been a change in Manitoba there still might be other problems in some other provinces, number one. And I do not want to walk on that ground again. If I do walk on it again, it will have to be very lightly.

That is number one and I think the member for LaPoile understands what I am saying on that. The question of whether the accord is somehow broken because of the change of govern- ment in Manitoba, of course not) they signed for the people and for the government and they were the legitimate govern- ment at the time so it has no bearing upon the accord itself. q71:sO

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3523 EL - 3 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Siins): The hon. the member for Windsor- Euchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker,I would like to ask my question please. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines (Mr. Windsor) with regard to the Wabush situation. Would the minister indicate to the House when he first got an indication that there would be a lay-off, albeit a temporary lay-off, in Wabush, when the minister himself became aware of it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines. 92fl

November 18, 1981 Tape 3524 EC - 1 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I was notified by the officials from the mining company a number of hours prior to their announcement that the mine would he shutting down temporarily around Christmastime. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. * MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, it is a fact, as the minister would know, that almost half a year's production in Scully Mines, almost, a full half year's production is in storage at Pointe Noire and Wabush.

Could the minister tell the House how that came about, how it came about that a half years production is in storage?And how much production, how many months produc- tion is the company prepared to stockpile and capable of stockpiling? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, thej have half a year's production. It took half a year to do that and half a year is the limit on which they are prepa'red to have an inventory at any one time. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Euchans. MR.

FLIGHT: Well, that is very interesting, Mr. Speaker, because the next question I want to ask the minister is, Given the state of the steel industry and the auto industry, and we know now that they have six months production in storage and they cannot put up with any more, they cannot have any more in storage, would the minister indicate whether or not there will be any more shut-downs, even if we accept the three weeks? Is Wabush, is Scully Mines looking at more shut-downs in 1982 as a result, number one, of the stockpile that he says has reached its maximum 17q1

November 18, 1981 Tape 3524 EC - 2 MR. FLIGHT: capacity, or as a result of the state of the auto industry and steel industry in North America? MR. SPEAKER (Siirims) : The hon. the Minister of Mines. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, obviously, the * temporary shut-down is as a result of the present market for iron ore, partiu1arly as a result of the Stelco strike. There is no indication that there will be any more shut-downs at this point in time. The only indication we have is that there will be that, three week shut-down. MR. HANCOC(: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes wish to yield? MR. HANCOCK: I yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary again is to the minister. Now, we have established that Wabush can only stand six months storage; they have six months storage in Pointe Noire and Wabush.

Can the minister confirm to the House - because the strike is still on at Stelco, one of their biggest customers - can the minister confirm to the House,number one, that it will only be a three week shut-down and that there is riot a great danger of further shut-downs in Wabush in 1982? S And, Mr. Speaker, while I am up, for the sake of saving time, let me ask the minister this - and he can defer to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) if he wishes: Why did the company, Pickand Mathers, the Scully operators, not live with the legislation?

Why did they not conform to the legislation existing that the company 9 q,)

November 18, 1981 Tape 3524 EC - 3 MR. FLIGHT: must give the workers - and I read that legislation as protection for the government, why did it not also give the government the sixteen weeks notice that is required under the legislation before they can lay off the number of men who were laid off at Scully? And further, why did the layoff - these are very simple questions to understand, Mr. Speaker - why did the layoff a 9qq

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3525 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: include only the hourly paid men and not include any of the administration of Scully • Mines MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Mines. MR. FLIGHT: Three very simple questions. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, yes,that is indeec three questions. First of all no, obviously I cannot give any commitment that there may not be other ramifications of a weak market or a continued lengthy strike at Stelco or at other mines. Nobody can predict what these conditions will impose on the market.

Obviously for the same reason the same answer applies to the fact that the company has not given sixteen weeks notice. They are required under the legislation-and my colleague advises me that one week's notice is required for a temporary shut down or - notice is required for more than a one week temporary shut down, in this case it is three except where there are extenuating circumstances. In this case it would certainly seem that the company has a valid case in stating that the present condition of the mining industry, strictly related to the Stelco strike, are extenuating circumstances. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please The time for Oral Questions has expired. It being Private Member's Day I call motion Number 3 on the Order Paper by the hon. member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett),

WHEREAS the high cost of living in this Province has placed an unbearable burden on those who are dependent on government assistance; AND

WHEREAS we profess to live in a society based on equal rights and opportunity for all;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House urge the government to take measures to make adequate provision for those for whom society is responsible. On the last day the debate was adjourned by the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms),who is not here. I recognize the member to my left, the hon. member

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3525 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for Kilbride. MR. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, because there has been quite some time since this motion from the hon. member from St. Barbe (Mr.

Bennett) has been discussed.I am not sure the exact way the debate went the last time but to read over the resolution: "BE IT RESOLVED that this House urge the government to take measures to make adequate provision for those for whom society is responsible." My own personal feeling on this matter is that I have in the past urged government todo this. I am urging government now to do it. I will urge government in the future to do it. So, Mr. Speaker, this resolution, as far as I can see, is in line with the way I think on this matter - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. AYLWARD: - and I would like to point out, Mr.

Speaker, some of the efforts of the people on this side of the House who continuously urge government to do these things, some of the successes we have had by reading some highlights from the 1981 budget. Mr. Speaker, in the 1981 budget it says, 'Funds have been provided for construction of a new hospital in Channel and a new clinic in Forteau." People who depend on government for medical service, Mr. Speaker, certainly government has come through in these two cases with the hospital in Channel now being constructed, Mr. Speaker.

We have under- stood this week there are some problems with the contracting companybut certainly the government's commitment is still there. We are doing our utmost in providing

November 18, 1981, Tape 3526, Page 1 -- apb MR. AYLWARD: funds for that. Funds are being provided this year for a new hospital in Clarenville, to commence a new hospital in Clarenville, Mr. Speaker. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, this is an indication that government is doing what it can for people who need health services. New correctional facilities, Mr. Speaker, is also one aspect of our budget in 1981, which also shows that the government, through the urgings of most of the people on this side, are providing assistance for those who depend on government. Funding is provided to commence a school for the deaf, Mr.

Speaker, to replace the existing facility. This, also, is another indication of the success this government, and the attempts of this government, is having to fulfill the wishes of this resolution. One other thing that the government has done this year, which is very important to people who depend on fire fighting services throughout the Province, is that we provided an introduction to a province- wide insurance for all volunteer firemen. Mr. Speaker, this is very important to a lot of people in my district.

Certainly the volunteer fire department in the Goulds were asking me about this for quite some time, and I am.very pleased to say that our government has come through for these people so that their families and themselves can be protected in case of injury or damage. Mr. Speaker, also in the budget for 1981,'Effective April 1, 1981 minimum increases of 8 per cent will be applied to public service pensions'. Mr. Speaker, within our financial situation here in this Province this certainly is a step forward. It is to be noted that this is a minimum increase, and larger increases were

November 18, 1981, Tape 3526, Page 2 -- apb MR. AYLWARD: awarded to individuals who received lower pensions. This certainly is an indication that this government is trying to do everything they can for the people, as mentioned in this resolution for people who depend on government. Also mentioned in the budget for 1981, we have effective May 1, 1981, 'Social assistance rates will be increased by 10 per cent'. Well, Mr. Speaker, we would all, on both sides of this House, love to see more money go to the people who are in need of it. MR. PATTERSON.: Hear, hear! MR.

AYLWARD: We all recognize that the monies that are provided for social services could be improved. Certainly each one of the members on this side, and, I am sure, on the other side, have instances of hardships under social services. There is only so much money and we are doing everything in our power to increase the amount so that the people could - social assistance is supposed to provide the basic necessities. We would certainly like to increase this as much as possible and we have shown evidence of our intentions to do this by our 10 per cent raise, as of May 1, 1981. MR.

MARSHALL: Not only that, but year after year we keep bringing them in. MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. the member for St. John's East(Mr. Marshall) just stated, if you wish to review past budgets, particularly since this government came into being, the social conscience of the Peckford administration has certainly 77

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3527 EL - 1 MR. ALYWARD: been evident. Much of our budget deals with social conscience and we are doing every- thing in our power to try to help people who need government assistance. It is becoming very evidefit. Mr. Speaker, also in the budget, regular foster home rates and child welfare allowances will be increased by fifteen per cent, another - AN HON. MEMBER: In the next budget? MR. ALYWARD: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: In the next budget? MR. ALYWARD: No, in the 1981 Budget they were increased by fifteen per cent. It certainly is another indication to support this resolution.

Four new group homes for children will be established in 1981-1982, certainly an improvement. Funds have been provided for an expanded programme of community development projects such as for social assistance recipients. Mr.

Speaker, in my own district, and my own community of Kilbride, just this year our recreation committee, which is a volunteer group, an incorpoiated volunteer group, employed fourteen people through this programme, pro- vided them with work to improve the community and it was through our social assistance department and their help that we got improved recreation and other facilities in our comm- unity plus to the benefit of the people who received the work. There were men and women employed on this, Mr. Speaker.

And certainly these are people, as mentioned in this motion here, these are people who depend on government, people in our society who depend on government. We found work for them and we got those people back into the work force -

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3527 EL - 2 MR. WARREN: We all did. MR. AYLWAPD: - at least for the time of - MR. PATTERSON: Listen Ljsten you will learn something. MR. AYLWAPJJ: - at least for the time of the projects, Mr. Speaker, and it involves - MR. WARREN: What about increasincj the cost of bird licences? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please: MR. PATTERSON: Where are you going to get the money for welfare if there are no taxes2 Do not be so foolish, boy: MR. SPEAKER: Order MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, this programme also benefits the people who are employednaturally.

It involves the community in community projects and it certainly beautifies and improves the whole cornmunity,as it did in our way,and many more of these projects are out throughout the Province have been carried on this Summer. Mr. Speaker, some other items in the highlights of the Budget for 1981; MCP coverage will be extended to include optometry services provided by qualified optometrists. This also, Mr. Speaker, is a help for people who need these services. Very good measures. MR. WARREN: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please A point of order raised by the hon. the President of the Council. qo

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3527 EL - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour has already called to order the member for Torngat Mountains. (Mr. Warren)asking him to desist from e

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3528 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: interrupting my hon. friend's speech ,and he is still persisting to do so, Mr. Speaker. I think that the hon. gentleman should be specifically asked to and if he does not there are remedies that unfortunately the House will have to take, MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : To that point of order, it is every member's right to be heard in silence,and I would ask the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) to restrain himself while the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) is making his presentation to the House. The hon. member for Kilbride. MR. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. It is to be noted that the hon. member for Torngat Mountains asked his House Leadej (Mr. Hodder) to stand up and protect him and defend him but his actions are not defendable, so I would ask him if he would refrain, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this resolution, if people took the time, particularly people in the Opposition to read Managing All Our Resources within our Five Year Plan - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, if they want to turn to chaper six, they will see the social policies of this government, the first time ever that a government of this Province planned such detailed social policies of the Province. I will go over some of the highlights of this, In the Department of Health alone we have projects for special care programmes, health and manpower, accessibility of health care service all of these things are mentioned in

chapter six - public health services to be improved, health promotion and long-term care, Mr. Speaker, Social Services is also mentioned in this

chapter six of Managing All Our Resources. Social assistance make- work projects which, as I mentioned before, were a great success in our area, in many areas of the Province this year, are mentioned in it. Services for mentally retarded to be improved, services 9 '

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3528 SD - 2 MR. ALYWARD: for senior citizens, day care teaching, homemaking services. Mr. Speaker, all of these things show the government's intention to support. We have already shown that we plan to live up to this motion, Mr. Speaker, and I have no trouble in supporting it because this government has shown in past performance and they show in their Five Year Plan that we intend to take measures to make adequate provisions for those for whom society is responsible. Mr.

Speaker, we are doing this, we have done it in the past and our Five Year Plan shows that we will do it in the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. member for Port au Port. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HODDER: I had no intention of engaging in this debate until I heard the hon. member opposite's comments that this government would continue to uphold this

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3529 DW - 1 particular motion as they have done in the past. Now, Mr. Speaker, I happen to represent a district and an area if we look at Bay St. George,which has an unemploy- ment ratio of 6,000 people. Now I will not go into the - AN HON. MEMBER: That is not the ratio; MR. J. HODDER: I am sorry. But the Manpower Office has 6,000 registered unemployed people.

Now I will not go into the reasons for that,there are an awful lot of reasons, but this brings about a situation where when you have 6,000 unemployed you have an awful lot of people who must depend on either unemployment insurance or on social assistance. And over the last three or four months, Mr. Speaker, the policy of the Department of Social Services has been nothing less than the most - MR. D. HANCOCK: Dismal. MR. J. HODDER: Dismal is not the word. I am searching for the word, Mr. Speaker.

The word,I think, it is almost - I think in terms of the way that perhaps the rights of people have been walked on as were walked on in Nazi Germans' when I talk about the way that the people who are on social assistance are being treated today. And I am glad the minister has just entered the House. Mr. Speaker, I walked into the home of an individual, I visit him quite often, I go in there to see him - I should almost mention his name because he is a man who has a heart condition and at the same time has an infected kidney. He cannot even brine in his own wood. He cannot bring in his own wooc.

He has a family tho are older, they are in school, he tries to keep them up.

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3529 DW - 2 MR. J. HODDER: I go to visit him because he sharpens his pencil whenever I go in and he says, 'Mr. Hodder, this is the way I am living now'. And what I am saying to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) • is that if you do not raise the allowances for those people who cannot help themselves - i am not talking about those who can go out and catch a fish. I am talking about the widows and I am talking about the handicapped who can no longer keep their families in food and clothing and whose refrigerators are bare. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J.

HODDER: And I am asking that if you can give 50 per cent raises here over two years and 20 and 40 per cent there over two years - I know there is a difference. I know we cannot keep, I know we cannot keep the people who are on social assistance to the level to which a person who is working. I know that otherwise there would be an awful lot of people who would go on social assistance. But what I am saying to you, Mr. Minister, is that in my district and in Bay St. George and across this Province and in St.

John's there are people who cannot live I will give you an example, a lady in my district who gets $260 a month because she is a widow was just given a rural and remote home. She got it! You know what they put in it? It is not your department's fault altogether but it shows the problem. She gets $260 a month. They put an oil furnance in her home. To fill the tank she has to give up her first month'E assistance. MR. FLIGHT: He shrugs, he shrugs his shoulders. q ;

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3529 DW - 3 MR. J. HODDER: And he shrugs! I will tell you something else. You brought in benefits, Mr. Minister, some time ago for pregnant women but you have withdrawn them for q

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3530 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: those under eighteen. Why did you do that? And I will tell you something else that is happening in some areas of this Province, people are now - when I speak of Nazi Germany, people now have to wait until the social worker arrives, if they are on short- term assistance, in order to get their assistance. I had a man walk in my office and take his jacket off, and take his shirt off and then he showed me his scars and his medical condition. He tells me he is on short-term assistance. He is a very intelligent man. He worked until he was disabled.

And he shows me his scars and he says, "This is the way I walk," you know, "here is my foot, here is my shoe that is built up that far, but yet I have to stay home two days a week until the social worker comes to see if I am making money or not." So therefore we are now under the eye of the state. MR. MICKEY: That is not so. MR. H0DDE: It is so. It is so. It is so. R. MICKEY: That is not true. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please MR. HODDER: It is so. And you know it. MR. SPEAKER: fl'er, please Order, please SOME HON. MEMBERS: It is true. It is so. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please Order, please'.

Order, please I have to ask the hon. member for Port au Port to address his remarks to the Chair. Thank you. The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. FLIGHT: It is so and it is under his order. q

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3530 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, to the minister through the Speaker I will address my remarks. I apologize. Mr. Speaker, excuse me if I am upset or emotional because I have to live with these problems day by day by day. And I will tell you something, everyone here in this House, that I represent a district that has a lot of social services problems and I have to deal with them day by day by day. I did not go to Florida for Easter last year. I did not go away for a vacation this Summer. I stayed home and I looked after them. And the minister, Mr.

Speaker, the minister knows that these problems exist. And yet the administration are becoming - I will tell you what is happening now, Mr. Speaker, in my district and in the districts on the West Coast - MR. TULK: Every district. MR. HODDER: - and every district in this Province, every district in this Province there is a backload. They have decided now that if a lady's stove, and I am talking about a widow again, I am not defending those who can defend themselves, Mr.

Speaker, but when a lady's stove needs a grate or when a lady's stove needs a new chimney or something like that, and she cannot afford it herself and she is a widow, she goes to Social Services, do you know how long it takes, Mr. Speaker, in order for that lady to get some satisfaction? Sometimes two to three months because it is the social worker who makes the decision, Mr. Speaker, it is not the social worker, it is the person who is at the regional office who makes that decision, so therefore it must go to the regional office. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. That is incorrect. That is untrue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER (Butt) MR. HICKEY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order, please. Order, please That is absolutely untrue. It is incorrect. Oh, oh Order, please'. Order, please 7

November 18, 1981 MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Butt Services has a point of order. call a point of order. Tape No. 3530 NM - 3 (Inaudible) Order, please The hon. Minister of Social No, Mr. Speaker, he did not Mr. Speaker, I cannot sit here and allow - MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. Minister of Social Services. - MR. HICKEY: - allow the House to be deceived either intention1ly or otherwise. I am not suggesting the hon. gentleman is intentionally deceiving the House. I believe he thinks he is right. I am simply informing the House that what the hon. gentleman has been told is q 1.7, q

November 18,1981 Tape No. 3531 ah-1 untrue. AN HON.MEMBER: That is right. MR. HICKEY: I happen to run my department and I happen to know where the management decisions are • made. And they are made, in this particular instance, on an item such as this, at the district office, all fifty- two of them and if they are not,my hon. friend - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. MR.SPEAKER ( Butt) : Order, please MR. HICKEY: - give'me the name andl will see to it that it is corrected. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I must remind the hon. Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) that that is not a point of order.

I think the minister took an opportunity to clarify remarks attributed to his particular department. The hon. member for Port Au Port. MR.HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, at the point that the minister interjected in my speech, I was saying that in order for anybody to get anything done in social assistance and if the minister wants to come down to my office1 I do not even have to go down1 he can go down with my secretary, and she will gladly go through the list of widows and people who are on social assistance who are now waiting for decisions because any decision that must be made to give any type of home care whatsoever must go through the district office in Corner Brook.

First the worker must write the letter,then it has to go to the district office, then it has to come hack and it takes months. And do not tell me it does not happen because it does. $ MR. TtJLK: It does happen. MR. HICKEY: I will correct it. The hon. gentleman has agreed that I correct it. You know I an not magic. I am not a magician.

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3531 AH-2 I MR. TULK: I thought you were. MR. HICKEY: I am saying it is not the policy of this government. I am saying it is not the policy of my department. I have 400 people out there. I cannot read all their minds. MR. TULK: It is happening in my district. AN HON. MEMBER: Right on. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I just want to address myself to one other point. MR. HOLLETT: You are doing a good job 'Jim. MR. FLIGHT: Keep going 'Jim'. Tell him his ashphalt is (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (BUTT) : Order, please The hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) has the floor. MR. HODDER: No, Mr.

Speaker, they can all talk if they want to. I only have a few more words to say and lots of time, give and take, fine. Mr. Speaker, the other thing I would like to address to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickev) through the Speaker is the fact that why is it that when the federal government raises, say, the Canada Pension - now everyone knows that Canada Pension is paid into by an individual. It is almost like you pay an insurance policy and in your older age you get back your insurance policy. The same with Old Age Pension.

You know, there are a lot of people across this Province where one of the spouses receives Old Age Pension and the other spouse does not. They have a family but as the Old Age Pension, the Canada Pension or whatever goes up, the Province gains, they take back. In other words, the Department of Social Services takes back the amount of money that the federal government increases it by. Now the federal government increases this money and if you look at the ratio, Mr.

Speaker - and I would ask all members to look at the ratio on which Old Age Pensions have been increased and then look at the ratio at which people on social services 91fl

November 18,1981 Tape No. 3531 ah-3 MR. HODDER: are increased. They did not get increased at all. You know the one time they were increased, Mr. Speaker, they got a secret increase? 91 1

November 18, 1981, Tape 3532, Page 1 -- apb MR. NODDER: In 1979, it was sneaked out during the election campaign when everybody was out fighting an election. Some of us were going door to door, and when we walked in they told us,We got an increase of 10 per cent. It is increased occasionally. Mr. Speaker, there are two •types of people in this Province who need help. Right. now I am speaking for the widows, I am speaking for the handicapped. And that administration over there, and that was the only point I wanted to make when I stood up today, Mr.

Speaker, that administration over there is not speaking for those people. Because even those who are not widows or handicapped, mentally physically or otherwise, those who cannot find jobs and must, and find themselves - and there is nothing so sad, Mr. Speaker, as a person who finds himself on social assistance, who has worked all his life. Those who find themselves on social assistance are the people who really suffer, not those who have been on it and have learnt to live that way.

Those who have learnt to live with social services are not so bad, the persons who finds that he is there because of a handicap, that particular person, Mr. Speaker, I am speaking of also. Those are the types of people I am talking about. I know there are people who draw social assiatance because they cannot get jobs, and they do not have U.I.C. In my district right now there are federal make work projects at this moment whereby if you work for one week, and get your one week's stamp, you get laid off. If a guy needs two stamps, he gets two stamps and he is laid off.

There is a project in my district that way at the present time. It is going on in Cape St. George, just to give people U.I.C. rather than welfare. It is a federal government programme. AN HON. MEMBER: It is shameful. MR. PATTERSON: Tell Trudeau about that. 911 9

November 18, 1981, Tape 3532, Page 2-- apb MR. HODDER: Yes, that project is going on. I am working for another one now just to get people on U.I.C. and off welfare so that they are not inspected and snooped on. And I will tell you something else, that when there are no jobs available, and I do represent a district where there are no jobs available - I just went door to door in a community called Kippens, which is the highest employed community in my district, and do you know what the issue was? social services and unemployment. And there is no help for them.

If they go there are too many people pushing at the social workers. And I will tell you about the social workers. The most dedicated group of social workers that ever lived live in my district and are in the district, in the Piccadilly office and in the Stephenville office. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HODDER: Yes. But they are overworked. They are overworked and they have no money. And I will tell you something, and, Mr. Minister, if you cannot get your Cabinet - Mr. Speaker to Mr. Minister - to give some of those people some help, then they will rise up, they will rise up and eat your administration.

That is all I have to say. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3533 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words to say on the motion. I would like, first of all, to read it into the record. 'WHEREAS the high cost of living in this Province has placed and unbear- able burden on those who are dependent on government assistance, AND WIERE7Swe profess to live in a society based on equal rights and opportunity for all;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House urge the Government to take measures to make adequate provision for those for whom society is res- ponsible'. Mr. Speaker, I have listened with great interest to the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) and he certainly has shown a lot of compassion for his people and perhaps the cases that he has brought for attention are what we call the exceptional cases. Not the - this is not the general rule, Mr. Speaker, these are exceptional cases and there are exceptional cases in every district of the Province.

In some cases perhaps like in his district, the employment opportunities, for example, like we have in the Bay of Islands, are not the same. We have, for example, the great Bowater organization, we have the Lundrigan empire, we have the hospital and we have the college and other things, all things brought about by this administration. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. WOODROW: Mr.

Speaker, this government and previous governments since the 70's, they were not only aware of the needs of people, but they have acteth And if you want to close your eyes andbe political about it, maybe you could say they did not help, But former governments, qi

NOVEBER 18, 1981 Tape No. 3533 EL - 2 MR. WOODROW: for example, have added a little to the social benefits, to welfare recipients before an election came up. This government has given an annual in- crease of 10 per cent for the last two or three years. That certainly is significant. They also have not decided to leave people on social assistance. it is nice, for example, to say to Mr.. So and So we are going to give you social assistance and let you stay there and rot on it. But what this government has tried to do isto uplift people by giving them some dignity. And for that reason they have provided special needs programmes. They have put the programmes in place. For example,

Nov. 18, 1981 Tare No. 3534 DW - 1 MR. LUKE WOODROW: they have made what we call - they are referred to as employment opportunities, make work projects or what have you. And as a result of these projects over 10,000 people have left the welfare rolls * in the last seven or eight years. SOME HON. MENBERS: Oh, oh MR. LUKE WOODROW: It is on the record. It is on the record. MR. HODDER: Where did they go? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please MR. L. WOODO'7! This is a good example of rehabilitation. Many of theo have got jobs in other places. I do not know where they all went, but it is on the record. - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. L. WOODROW: I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. member - he did not mention this one the high cost of housing in this Province. We cannot do a thing about what was done in the last Budget brought down a short time ago by the federal government - MR. W. PATTERSON: Liberal Government. MR. L. WOODROW: - federal Liberal government. What did they do? They just helped about maybe 200 people And what about the thousands of others who need help We have no control over mortgages. It is up to the federal government. What compassion have they shown people?

And yet,we will say they will rant and roar over what is beino done. I could probably also ask how many DREE programmes have been signed in this Province over the past three years? Three progranimes. SOME HON. MRMBERS: Hear, hear 9 1 c:

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3534 DW - 2 MR. L. WOODROW: In fact, nine or ten still remain to be signed. Are they helping the people of this Province? Regarding, Mr. Speaker, the 200 people who have been helped, and I have several in my district, I had one today, in fact, a letter from a constituent of mine sent to my office today, and if the federal government had been a bit more helpful he would not have to appeal to me to try to help him in his sad plight, help him from losing his house. I would say that they have done - the" have helped 200 people Mr.

Speaker, but they have helned - in fact, it is too little too late. Now,I would like to say to the hon. member that I do not think that social asstance was ever meant to provide everything for people but it was meant to enable them, through their own help, to better themselves. And I think we all know, and we would have to probably be very unwise orfor example, fooling our- selves not to say 17

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3535 SD - 1 MR. WOODROW: that there are some people, Mr. Speaker, who are never going to change, we have them in every district. If you gave them a million dollars today, they probably would have it gone in a week from now. I like, as the hon. member does, to visit homes in my district also and I am thinking now of the example of a lady who receives social assistance and she happens to know how to spend her money. She tells rue that it does not just go over night, she does not go out and spend it on useless things. She has to sacrifice maybe many things.

Again how many, in fact,of our social assistance recipients - certain hoces I visit, if you qo in there will you not find, for example, if not alcoholic beverages,at least evidence to know that they had it there? We all have to make sacrifices. I am sure the hon. Speaker has to make sacrifices. We all have to make sacrifices. We cannot expect, in fact, to have everything that we need in this life, just let her go. I want to give a few examples of people in my district who have nice homes.

I have gone into their homes on purpose and I enter the home and I say, 'I do not suppose you have this home all paid for?' 'Yes, we have it all paid for, we own everything in it including the furniture as well. And I say, 'How did you do it?' 'We worked for it, we worked hard and we made sacrifices.' And I believe that this is what this administration is trying to do, to get people to realize the dignity, not,in fact, leave them down in the dregs of poverty for the rest of their lives. We have a certain dignity to live up to and I think it is up to us as government to try, in fact, to encourage them.

It is very easy for us to go out-I could go out if I wanted to, I could go in my district and talk about the minister, he is not doing this or he is not doing that. But I feel sure that the minister, and the administration,}o-iows that there are only so many dollars to go around. We have at the present time the highest sales tax 9 1 p

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3535 SD - 2 MR. WOODROW: in the country. What are we going to do? Are we going to add an additional two or three cents to what is there already? I think we have, Mr. Speaker, to be honest,we have not got to be playing politics with a thing like this, especially with the lives of people. I think there is nothing more down- grading than, we will say - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WOODROW: - to be playing politics with the lives of those poor people. Mr. Speaker, in the Smallwood era, and I happen to know about it, there was no plan for social assistance - MR.

TULK: How come you supported him? MR. WOODROW: Well that was years gone by. I did not have enough sense to do anything else then. I learned since then. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. WOODROW: There was no such clan. I heard what you could do, for example, you could call a Deputy Minister you could say, there is probably -you know, I need a - a member could call and he could say, Well, we need a few bucks to help out this one or that one in the district.' 'No problem. Okay, fine. MR. MARSHALL: If the hon. member would permit.

If you were on the government side of the House - if you were in Opposition like I was, you were not allowed to talk to them. MR. WOODROW: I know it, absolutely. That is another example. Now what we have today, we have committees, we have administrators and assistant administrators and we have social workers and they go out in the field, in fact, they just do not give until they find out the needs of people. I too sometimes find it difficult urobably when I call about somebody, I cannot get a direct answer.But I have been fooled by people a few times. So I think that it is proper and right •: i ci

November 18, 1981 Tape 3536 EC - 1 MR. WOODROW: that the people working in Social Assistance should go out and just examine, just see if the people who are talking • with them are really telling the truth or what. Now, we have also given special • attention, Mr. Speaker, to the sick, the blind and other disabled people. I have at times called up at the request of constituents of mine to ask if there were any extenuating circumstances whereby we could help somebody. And when that case is examined it generally comes out in the positive. And then there are many other things.

We have, for exinple, such things as woodcutting projects and the like; in fact, there are so many things that the government are trying to do. You just cannot do it all in a minute. Then, of course, again we have inflation. Mr. Speaker, I am always amazed when people from the other side will say, Ottawa has come through again. I mean, you would almost think that they were separatists. Why are not we entitled to Ottawa's benefits as well as Ontario or Nova Sotia, P.E.I. or any other province?

I think, in fact -sometimes there is a great big Hurrah made, 'Ottawa has come through again We are entitled to it and I think, Mr. Speaker, we are entitled to it moreso than the other provinces because we are the youngest, Mr. Speaker, in Confederation and as a result of that, in fact, we need more help. We need twice as much help as the people in Ontario and Quebec. We need more help than the people in provinces like Nova Scotia, P.E.I. and New Brunswick.

So I do not, in fact, ciet run a\:ry vith somebody when he says, 'Oh my, Ottawa has come through again.' We are Canadians and I think we are entitled to what is on the go. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! q7n

November 18, 1981 Tape 3536 EC - 2 MR. WOODROW: When I spoke earlier, Mr. Speaker, I do not think you were in the Chair. I spoke about the DREE projects. There are only three DREE projects signed. We have requested nine or ten. Why is that? Do you call that 'Ottawa bashing'? Again, for example, sometimes, you know, people on the other side accuse the Premier of this and of that. What is he going to do? Do you think, for example, that the Premier is going to just go up and sit down nicely with Mr. Trudeau and say, Okay, we will accept whatever you are going to give US?

If he had to do that with the -onstitution I can assure you that we would not have a Premier who is so respected not only in this Province, Mr. Speaker, but in the whole of the Dominion of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: Let me bring out something else, Mr. Speaker, just to tell you what is happening in Bay of Islands. There was a Liberal meeting held in Bay of Islands on Tuesday night to look for a Liberal Association. MR. AYLMARD: How many came? MR. WOODROW: It was so badly attended they could not have it. And that was held where they had access to Humber East and Humber West. MR.

HISCOCK: That is not true. MR. WOODROW: It is, absolutely. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WOODROW: Really, you know, I mean, that is something to boast about. AN HON. MEMBER: About five or six people. MR. WOODROW: About four or five people. MR.'1ARSHALL. Nould the hon. member care to tell us where their guest spea)'er was? 92 1

November 18, 1981 Tape 3536 EC - 3 MR. W000ROW: The guest speaker was the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh AN HON. MEMBER: He could not make it, you know. MR. WOODROW: That is right. SONE HON. F!BERS: flh, oh MR. WOODROW: No. If that is the way it is going, Mr. Speaker, I think that we must be doing something right. NH.AYLWARD: The biqgest meeting they had all year. MR. WOODROW: I hope that we will continue - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WOODROW: Well, thank you very much. We try to do our best. I hope that we will try to continue to do right. I could, Mr.

Speaker, go on and on and say a lot of other things but, of course, as you know, time will not permit. But I am going to keep on working, Mr. Speaker, with the Minister

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3537 EL - 1 MR. WOODROW: of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) with he administration and try, in fact, to go on to not only help better the people of the Bay of Islands but of our Province in general. MR. AYLWARD: Hear, hear: MR. WOODROW: And let us all be very proud Canadians. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Well, Mr.Speaker, I will start off by saying to the hon. member for Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow) that if our party was going around spending $3,000 or $4,000 on booze and liquor to give out to people to attend a function then I am sure that we would get that many people out too. MR. TULK: But we are all teetotalers. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak on this motion- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER: Order, please MR. WARREN: Now, Mr.Speaker, I am sure that if we had to get that - MR. TULK: Tell us about Manitoba, how the Tories got wiped out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please I am sure all hon. members are enjoying the conversation but the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) has the floor with your indulgence, please.

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3537 EL - 2 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, there is no trouble to know which ministers are in trouble in the next election, the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young), the Minister of Health (Mr. House). These are the oneswho are so all con- cerned about their districts. Now they are trying to find something that the Liberals are doing right in those dis- tricts. Mr. Speaker, one of the best resolutions that was brought into this House of Assembly since June 18, 1979 was brought in by my hon. colleague from St. Barbe (Mr. Benaett) and that is - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, that Is telling this government to either wake up or ship out. And, this is exactly what this one is saying because this government is actually doing very very little, very very little, Mr. Speaker, for us as Newfoundlanders and La- bradorians. Now, I was so shocked to hear the member for Kilbride (Mr.Aylward)- now, the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) was not too bade but the member for Kilbride to get up and defend a government that he has been part of for the last two and a half years.

I know, Mr.Speaker, I know that as a backbencher sitting over there he has to stay on the good side of the Premier as long as he can. Because, Mr. Speaker, as soon as the Premier calls the next election, I am sure he may get re-elected but he will be sitting over on this side. Mr. Speaker, maybe the member for Kilbride may get re-elected. If he does, he will be sitting over here with probably two or three others. 1 2

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3537 EL-3 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the member spoke about all the good things, all the so-called good things that this government has done since 1979. He mentioned about a Clarenville hospital, Mr. Speaker. I have heard about a Clarenville hospital in 1973, 1974, in 1975. In fact, Mr. Speaker, there were signs erected in 1975 in Clarenville that the hospital would start immed- iately. The hospital is not started yet. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is 1981 and they are still waiting for the hospital in Clarenville. That is what you call a progressive government.

The Prem- ier said Come by Chance will open in 90 days. Alleluia 90 days, Mr. Speaker, have gone to 900. The Premier forgot the zeros. So now here is what you call a Progressive government. Come by Chance will open in 90 days. Mr. Speaker, here is another example of this government caring about the people of New- foundland, caring about the people of Newfoundland and it affects every single person and that is, Mr. Speaker, that at the present day, because of the Minister of Finance's (Dr.

Collins) Budget last year when he said there will be a twenty-two per cent tax on gasoline, not tenty-seven cents to the gallon no more, which you would pay back to the govern- ment, twenty-seven cents, today you are paying back forty- six cents. MR. PATTERSON: Tell us about the (inaudible). MR. WARREN: I suggest the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) shut up and listen. Here it is forty-six cents, Mr. Speaker, and the minister and the member for Placentia, as well as all other people in this Province, have to pay that. And who brought that in?

Where is this Progressive Conservative government that is concerned about the ordinary Newfoundlander? Where is it, Mr. Sneaker? Here it is, tag it on to all those people who have vehicles, which includes pretty well everybody in this 97c

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3538 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: Province, Mr. Speaker. So this is the kind of government we have, Mr. Speaker. Look at the noose licences, Mr. Speaker. They have gone up over 100 per cent in the past two years. Mr. Speaker - MR. PATTERSON: point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Apoint of order, the hon. member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: I think the hon. member for St. Barbe (Bennett), he has an excellent resolution here. It is deplorable that it has reached down to a political battle. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. PATTERSON: I think you should address the resolution.

It is an excellent resolution and I am going to support it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. WARREN: To that point of order - MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The hon. member just contributed a few remarks he would like to make. The hon. member for Torngat. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what this resolution is saying. And if the member cannot read I will repeat what the resolution says. Mr. Speaker it says,. 'BE IT RESOLVED THAT this House urge the government to take measures Mhat measures have they taken? Add up the tax on gasoline, is that the kind of measures, Mr. Speaker?

They have increased moose C licences by 100 per cent, Mr. Speaker, increased marriage licences, increased birth certificates. Mr. Speaker, the only thing this aovernment never increased, was people who do surveying, people who dig holes in the land and they only pay $2 for a permit, Mr. Speaker, when they should be

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3538 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: paying much, much more. Mr. Speaker, this is the way the governmnt should be getting taxes, on those people who are doing mining. So, Mr. Speaker - let us look at it, Mr. Speaker. Let us look at social assistance across this Province. My hon. friend from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) said he had roughly 6,000 people on the UIC payroll, or on UIC benefits. MR. STAGG: That is more people than he has in his district. MR. WARREN: Yes, that is more than I have in my district, Mr. Speaker. MR. HODDER: See if the Premier - MR. WARREN: Let me tell you, Mr.

Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. WARREN: - Mr. Speaker, today in Davis Inlet, a tiny community of only 300 people there are 93 people unemployed, 93 people - 93 per cent, I ath sorry. 93 per cent unemployed. Now, Mr. Speaker, is that something for this government to be proud of? Is that something for this government to be proud of? AN HON. MEMBER: The Premier really shot you down yesterday, boy. MR.RREN: Let me tell you something else, Mr. Speaker, about how concerned this government is. In a few days time the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) is going to bring in some measures to get money back into the Treasury. Because they have overspent so much on repairing the Premier's house and so on, they want to get some money back into the Treasury. So here is what they are going to do, Mr. Speaker, here is one 97

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3538 NM - 3 MR. WARREN: thing they have planned to do. Now if there is enough vocal support from myself and from the people in my district this may not happen. Here is what they plan to do. They are planning to increase the cost of every commodity, increase the cost of every commodity that this government is going to sell in the governments own stores in my district. They are planning to increase that commodity to get $75,000 back into the Treasury. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is what you call a government concerned for the people.

They are going to increase it, not increase it because it needs to be increased but increase it because the government needs an extra $75,000. But, Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise this House that if the government decides to increase the price of those goods they have not heard the last from me because I definitely will be letting everybody know through the media and through everything else that here is an example of what this government thinks about how to take the money out of the back pockets of the people who really do not have any money to take it out of, Mr. Speaker. MR. MOORES: 'Mr.

Patterson, we need a quorum. MR. TULK: Get a quorum in here. - MR. MOORES: Get in a quorum or we will call.. MR. WARREN: The people, Mr. Speaker, who are working for the Department of Social Services they have a tremendous job to do. Mr. Speaker, they have more to do than they are getting paid to do. And this government, and I am speaking on behalf of the many social workers, and not only the social workers with the Department of Social Services but all other employees. There are some employees who are 93714

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3538 NM - 4 MR. WARREN: waiting two and three months to get back a travel claim from this government, Mr. Speaker. Now is this any concern for their own employees.' Mr. Speaker, I a believe that my hon. colleague has brought in a well-founded resolution. I believe, we should support it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) LI 917o

November 18, 1981, Tape 3539, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: I think we should support it. Mr. Speaker, when we see this government motion coming forward, and hear members on the other side - this is what is astonishing, Mr. Speaker, to hear members of the other side of this House getting up and saying "I am going to support the resolution". I just heard the member for Placentia(Mr. Patterson) say he was going to support the resolution. Mr.

Speaker, that in itself shows the defeat of this government, that in itself shows that this government is going, going, gone, knowing that you can hear members on that side of the House saying they are going to support this resolution urging the government to take the measures necessary. Now, Mr. Speaker, that shows that those members sitting in the backbenches - although the member for Kilbride(Mr. Aylward) got up and he said everything right, but then to heal? the member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) getting up and saying I am going to support the resolution, it really shows that this government is really down the drain. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we should look at the sales tax, look at the liquor tax, look at the fee that an individual has to pay to go into a provincial park. Anything, Mr. Speaker, that can hit the lower income person, anything that can hit the average or lower income Newfoundlander, this is what this government has taxed. This is who this government is attacking, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Four dollars a night. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, when some of the parks are not fit to go in. When they are not fit to go in. They should not be four dollars a night, the parks should be left alone, they should be turned over to private enterprise. 9.fl

November 18, 1981, Tape 3539, Page 2 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. WARREN: Then, at least, you would have a park, Mr. Speaker, that would be suitable to visit. So I believe it i s ridiculous, a moose licence increasing 100 per cent. I suppose that is easy too, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, some of these things I believe government should look at seriously. Let us tax the multi-millionaires, Mr. Speaker, let us tax the multi-nationals and all thesethings, but do not tax the average, ordinary and lower income Newfoundlanders. We have to support those, Mr. Speaker. MR.

MOORES: Heave it out of you, 'Garfield' boy. Heave it out of you. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, it is amazing to hear the member for Bay of Islands(Mr. Woodrow) say Social Services is interested in community projects. MR. HICKEY: it is true. It is true. MR. WARREN: It is true, Mr. Speaker. Yes, it is true, but also, Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you some- thing else, that recently the federal government announced x number of projects to help the fishermen to get enough U.I.C. contributions, and, Mr.

Speaker, in some of those projects, federal initiated projects, who should be working on them but clients from the Department of Social Services. And, Mr. Speaker, this is an indication that this government has to rely on Ottawa even for the sake of getting Social Services recipients off their payroll. MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) in history. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I assure you that in the district of Placentia, which is not Liberal now but it will be Liberal the next time round - AN HON. MEMBER: What? What? MR. WARREN: Oh, yes. The member for Placentia is gone, he is gone.

November 18, 1981, Tape 3539, Page 3 -- apb MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) you over there. MR. WARREN: The only chance the member for Placentia(Mr. Patterson) and the member for Bay of Islands(Mr. WoodroW) have of retaining their seats in the House of Assembly is to change over before the next election is called, because, boy, then you will definitely get back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the member for Kilbride(Mr. Aylward) said the members on this side should read Managing All Our Resources. Managing All Our Resources, Mr. Speaker, yes, I read that.

But if we have to look at the government since 1979, who in this House, who in this Province can really say that this government has managed our resources? MR. WOODROW: Clark gave us (inaudible) say to the Trans-Canada? MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, Clark lasted for six months too. Maybe that is the reason why Clark. lasted for six months. MR. WOODROW: He was honest. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, he is the same Prime Minister that the Premier walked on the steps of Confederation Building.

And he is the same Prime Minister that the hon. former Minister of Fisheries - Jim McGrath was then Minister of Fisheries, what were his comments, Mr. Speaker? What were his comments? I will leave it to the discretion of the hon. member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: He was honest. MR. WARREN: Exactly, Mr. Speaker. And I can say one thing for the hon. 939

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3540 DW - 1 MR. G. WARREN: member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) ,he is one of the most honest persons on that side of the House, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. G. WARREN:. And that is the kind of people, Mr. Speaker, that we would like to have on this side. Now, Mr.. Speaker, - I am sorry I cot carried away a little bit,but I wish to go back for a second to this resolution. I brought a resolution into this House a while 'aco asking for medical evacuation from Labrador or ambulance services for Labrador.

This government brought it in - in due course this government accepted that resolution and all of a sudden a measure was brought in by the provincial Department of Health saying, 'Okay, we will institute ambulance services for residents in Labrador'. MR. B. TULK: One of the most successful resolutions ever put forward. MR. G. WARREN: One of the most successful, yes. However, one thing was lacking. MR. B. TULK: What was that? MR.

G.WARREN: Take a patient - I have brought this to the minister's attention several times, and I have brought it to the attention of the House, take a patient who is in Davis Inlet - I will just use Davis Inlet or Charlottetown for an example - and it is going to cost them roughly around $500 or $600 to come up to the hospital. MR. B. TULK: Why?

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3540 DW - 2 MR. G. WARREN: Now if they die when they get out here, fine and dandy, if they die, because the body will be taken back free of cost. But if they get better they have to pay $500 or $600 to go back. Meanwhile now - I do not know if it is a the attitude now , 'If they die all the better:, you know. MR. B. TtJLK: So they will pay your way to hell but not back. MR. G. WARREN: Yes, right. Okay, 'iere is an example. We will take care of the ambulance service. We will ship you out to St. John's to see Dr. So and So in St.

John's but when you get out there now, how you get back is your problem. So that is what you call a good ambulance service helping the people of Labrador. I see a minister up there in the hallways shakinq his hand. MR. TULK: That is not his hand, that is his hood. MR. G. WARREN: That is his head is it, Mr. Speaker? It looks so shiny I did not know. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. G. WARREN: So, Mr. Speaker, if this government is concerned they would not bring in a pro- granlxoe, they would not bring in a programme that will only go halfway to meet the needs. It is like the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) said earlier today about social services; there are so many people in the hon. member for Placentia's (Mr. Patterson) ,distrjct, there are so many people in the hon. member for Nas- kaupi's (Mr. Goudie) district,and in my district and all around Newfoundland, Mr. 5oeaker, and I do not mind saying it,who are beino paid welfare today who are too - I will not use the word - but too lazy to work who are too lazy to work, Mr. Speaker. And that

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3540 DW-3 MR. G. WARREN: is what is wrong! The Depart- ment of Social Services has to redefine their programme. There are people, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: Name them. a MR. WARREN: Yes I would love to name them. And it is a fact. I know people who are sitting down on their fat bottom looking out through the window at people working. While, Mr. Speaker, they are getting social services, there are some other poor sons-of-guns out having to work their heads off. And this government is responsi- ble, Mr. Speaker. This government is responsible!

And any member in this House could say the same thing. There are people right throughout this Province being paid, Mr. Speaker, paid social services because they are too darned lazy to work. And, meanwhile, those who are unable to work, those who are un- able to work, Mr. Speaker, those are the ones who are sacrific- ed. Like the example the hon. member for Port-au-Port (Mr. Hodder) gave. Those are the ones, Mr. Speaker, who are being sacrificed. And when this government can see the light, when this government can look at the social programmes and pay to those who deserve it, Mr.

Speaker, the Province of Newfound- land and Labrador will be no better off. And there is only one alternative and that is for the Premier to call an elect- ion and let the people throw them out and put somebody in there who can govern this Province. Thank you. 4 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Baird) : The hon. member for Fogo. MR. FULK: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

Nov. 18, 1981 Tape No. 3540 DW - 4 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) The hon. member for Fogo was the only gentleman who stood and the Chair recog- nizes the hon. member for Fogo. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak on this resolution that has been so ably presented by my hbn. friend, the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett) It is a resolution that most of us, I think, should take a serious look at and I refer in particular to the way that it has been constructed and put together. I think if you look at the first

WHEREAS that the gentleman has presented to us,you will see that he says that the high cost of living in this Province has placed an unbearable burden on the people of the Province. Mr. Speaker, if there is anybody who doubts that the cost of living in this Province today is unbearable, then they should take a trip around the Province and perhaps knock on some of the doors that no doubt the member for St. Barbe and other people in the backbenches of this House have knocced on. There is not a doubt in the world, Mr. Speaker, that the hardships being suffered by the people in Mjfnundland today are perhaps

November 18,1981 Tape No. 3541 ah-1 pretty close to being what they were in what we refer to as the'flirty Thirties', And I do not believe that there is a person in this House who would disagree. There is not a person in this House who can disagree with what the resolution.itself.says. If you look at the second

WHEREAS, Mr. Speaker,'AND

WHEREAS we profess to live in a society based on equal rights and opportunity for all'then I hope, Mr. Speaker, that there is nr- person on that side of the House, in particular, who would disagree with that

WHEREAS because the truth is that the Premier of this Province has built his whole political future on saying exactly that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. TULK: There is not , again, a person in this House who can disagree or would wish anything different for Newfoundlanders. Mr. Speaker, the

BE IT RESOLVED of this resolution as}' the government to take measures, to make adequate provision for those for whom society is responsible. Now, Mr. Speaker, the operative words in that resolution, the operative words are that the government must take measures to make adequate provisions for those for whom society is responsible. Everybody in this House, again, Mr. Speaker, should agree with that statementln view of the fact that I am sure that everybody in this House will agree with the first two WHEREASES. There is nobody who can disagree with that.

But.yethon. gentlemen on the other side of this House find it convenient to disagree with what the member is saying. They say, no. The member for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) and the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) say that this government is doing

November 18,1981 Tape No. 3541 ah-2 MR. TULK: everything that they can do. Well, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion,and in the opinion of a great many people in Newfoundland,this government has done very little but lay the blame for our financial problems in this Province on Ottawa. Now, Mr. Speaker, where Ottawa is to blame we should blame them,and I would be the first to do so,as I have done ut I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that indeed this crowd over there are perhaps doing the best that they can,and the chief word there is' they'.. It seems , Mr.

Speaher, to me. it seems to me and to a great many other people whom I speak to' Lhat the government in this Province today does not understand what its role is in the economic system of the Province or at least they do not wish to understand. Now, Mr. Speaker, the member for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) says that they are doing the best that they can but that they do not have the money. The member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) in an aside from his seat just now said , Where do you get money for social assistance if not through taxes?' The member is right.

You do get money for social assistance through taxes and I agree that they do not have the money. But the chief question is, the chief question in this Province today is, why does the government of this money not have the money to provide the social assistance to widows so the people,whom the member for Port Au Port (Mr. Hodder) pointed out to us very vividly, cannot make their own way in the world? Why do they not?

And I want to come back to a staterrent that I made a few minutes ago when I said that it seems to me that the government does not understand • its role with regards to private industry and it certainly does no- understand its role with regard to unions. MR. HODDER: The member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) finally came to the House of Assembly.

S November 18,1981 Tape No. 3541 ah-3 MR. TULK: The member for Stephenville(Mr. Stagg) , I will get to him later. It seems to me that the government does not understand its relationship to private enterprise in this Provinceneither do they understand their relationship to unions. Now, Mr. Speaker, you may say,well,what has this to do with the resolution? I hope to point out what it has to do with the resolution as I gO along.

Because ,Mr.Speaker, it is true in this Province, and it is true in every province in Canada and indeed it is true throughout the Western world, that private enterprise has built our civilization but government is needed and government has tr orotect people and unionsin this Province. The trade union movement in this 'ovince,and the Trade Union movement in North Americ& were seen as a file against private enterprise and helped to protect the people wherever they happened to be. Now' Mr. Speaker, let us look at private enterprise. What has happened under this • government? What has happened under this government?

It seems to rue that private enterprise in this Province, under this government, is

November 18, 1981 Tape No. 3542 SD - 1 MR. TULK: doomed in Newfoundland. It is doomed. Business enterprises are closing down every day. Let us take a look, Mr. Speaker, at the number of personal and business bankruptcies that have occurred in this Province since 1979. MR. BUDDER: And it is going to get worse, that is my view of it. MR. TULK: In 1979 personal bankruptcies in this Province were 167; in 1980 private bankruptcies in this Province were 186; up until August, 1981, with half the year gone, private bankruptcies in this Province were 140. What has happened to business?

In 1979 there were sixteen bankruptcies. When. this government came to power there were sixteen bankruptcies in Newfoundland. What happened in 1980? In 1980 there were thirty-seven bankruptcies in this ProvincetJP until August 1981, there were forty-one business bankruptcies in this Province. So it is, Mr. Speaker, that businesses in this -Province are closing down at a phenomenal rate. MR. HODDER: Have a general election. MR. TULK: So how can we - and I ask the hon. member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson), I tell him he is right, but how can we in this Province have taxes to support our social services when this government is not encouraging private enterprise to expand, to grow and to make a profit when they are not encouraging unions to go after a portion of that profit? Mr. Speaker, I am not talking about large corporations, I am not talking of Exxon but I am talking about • the small businessman, I am talking about the small businessman who employs perhaps one, perhaps two, perhaps fiv