Manitoba Hansard — 26 June 1995 (Sitting 25B, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-25b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vnl YT .V Nn '--"R- � n_

� ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK., Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. Fll.MON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil Gll.LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK., Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Aff iliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas AinAon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norben St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Ponage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupensland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River .bitt N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P.

P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2653 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 26, 1995 The House met at 8 p.m., ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) GOVERNMENT SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good evening. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. The committee will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Government Services. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1. Administration (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 71. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Chairperson, I have some questions that deal with the evacuation of some towns in northern Manitoba, the ones that are fleeing from the fires that we have burning up there right now. All I need is a s umm ary of what has happened so far, with the numbers of evacuations that have been taking place, the number of fires that are burning and people going helter-skelter. I want to get myself caught up with who is where, from where, and where they are staying, and all that sort of thing, just a

summary of where they are at. Maybe we can start with Leaf Rapids first. Bon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): We will just get an update for you on that, and I believe it will be coming up here in a second. I will start with the Gods Lake Narrows situation, because I have a reasonable handle on that one. We began to evacuate yesterday from Portage Ia Prairie and have been proceeding with that evacuation. I believe, as we speak, all evacuees who were in Portage Ia Prairie are now returned home, transported back to Gods Lake Narrows.

However, some of these evacuees have travelled into, we believe, Winnipeg, so we are attempting to notify them of the availability of transportation back to their homes or attempting to locate them and co-ordinate flights to get them back to their homes. I know they will be appreciative of that. (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) As far as LeafRapids-I think the member is aware of the unforeseen circumstances that caused the second evacuation to occur.

I guess it is a good-news, bad news scenario in the sense that because the evacuations were relatively close together, some of the folks had not returned home yet and had remained in Thompson and some in The Pas, we are told. So they had not gone back to Leaf yet. The other folks were moved, about 1,100 residents, to Lynn Lake. They are housed, some in private accommodations, some in accommodation arranged in the communities. Some are actually camping, as well. As far as the South Indian Lake area, those residents are still remaining in Thompson and for the most part are housed there.

I believe a few have made other arrangements, apart from those made in co-operative discussion with the community and with Emergency Measures and other government departments. There is progress being made at that fire, but it is still a little bit premature to try to have those folks move back home just yet. Granville Lake, again, the firefighting is continuing there. Sixty-three residents of this community have been evacuated to Wabowden and Thompson.

What we have done, because certainly with any issue around the disaster, and certainly this is an extremely illustrative case of that, there is a tremendous amount of stress associated with the circumstances these people are facing and that they are in, and so we have established critical incident stress debriefing teams, and these are folks who are trained and able to work with, in conjunction with, the evacuees to address their concerns, hopefully help them to work through some of the emotional trauma they are facing.

2654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 199: *

(2010) It is certainly almost impossible, I think, for most of us to appreciate, who have not come from a northern community or have not been through an evacuation process, what it would be like. I guess, you know, I have certainly been touched by the situations that these folks have been faced with, and I have learned from my discussion with them a lot more about their feelings and about the concerns that they have. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Certainly there are no easy answers, as the member knows, with the case of Leaf Rapids.

We were besieged, and I understand it is not untypical of situations like this, by requests to get back home. People wanted to be in their homes, and at the same time, in retrospect, many people may be now observing that it was too soon to go back, but these are situations where there are unforeseen circumstances that arise, very, very unpredictable circumstances. That is the nature of fire. I know just last year on our farm, I was doing some cleanup involving myself with some fire, and I am lucky it did not get away from me. So I have been through it on a small scale in my family farmyard.

Once that. fire gets going, it is incredible how fast it can proceed and move and change in different directions. It takes on a mind of its own, it seems. We need to recognize that there are a lot of variables at work in nature, and certainly it is unfortunate, the consequences we are seeing because of that truth in northern Manitoba this year. I hope that gives you a bit of an overview. Mr. Struthers: Yes, it does. I just have a few more specific questions about where some of them are located. The people that have been evacuated from South Indian Lake, you said they are staying in Thompson.

What facilities are they using within Thompson to house the people from South Indian Lake? Mr. PaUister: Various facilities within the community: friendship centre, school gymnasium, Keewatin Community Centre, Deerwood School. 1 know that in Thompson-! will not pronounce the name of the friendship centre properly so I will not attemp1 to, but the friendship centre has been used to house some of the older people that have respiratory problems or where their health is of some concern. So they are being housed in the friendship centre. I am aware that is one specific case. Mr.

Struthers: Is there anyone from Lynn Lake who has been evacuated from there or is everybody from Lynn Lake still in the community? Mr. Pallister: At the present time, and we hope of course that conditions are such that that can continue. Mr. Struthers: Anyone who is evacuated from a town and does not go to say, a prescribed locality that your department has mentioned, does your department pay for them to stay anywhere else? I am thinking of a hotel or lodgings with some relatives or a friend. Is there any money that goes towards those evacuees who stay other than at the community places? Mr.

PaUister: I would ask the member to understand that we are talking in general terms, and there are innumerable possible combinations and permutations of events that can occur around a disaster, dependent on many things, including the amount of time that our department and the communities have to put their disaster preparedness plans into place, to line up appropriate housing, these types of things. Generally speaking, we will arrange communal, for lack of a better word, housing for all evacuees.

If there are unique or special circumstances such as the example I gave you, where some of the older people needed special, separate housing, we will attempt to arr ange that whenever possible. In the case of the Gods Lake Narr ows Band, I know that there were some women there-in fact, we had two births during the evacuation to Portage Ia Prairie. Women in their advanced stages of pregnancy were provided with rooms at a local hotel, as were some of the elders who were in extreme-! will not say extreme, but their physical condition was such that they did require that level of accommodation.

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2655 But generally speaking, we will only cover for the cost of communal housing except in those types of situations I used as an illustration. If someone is able to stay with family or friends in a community, that is of course acceptable and good for them. We would in that instance cover the costs of their food, provided they have receipts or evidence of incurring some cost, of course. I hope that gives a little bit of a better elaboration for the member. Mr. Struthers : Yes, that does.

The last comment I want to make was that we did talk with a woman who was 104 years old from Gods Lake in Portage, who was slated to go sleep on the arena floor, but one of her friends stepped in and she got moved to better accommodations in Southport. I know that those exceptions are made, and I thank the minister for that information. That is all I have. Mr. Pallister: I thank the member for his interest and his interest in the past.

I know this is, as he understands, as I think all members understand, a most emotional circumstance for the folks that are thrust out of their normal place of residence and forced into a new community. It is a difficult thing for them. It places some difficulties of course as well on the host communities, to accommodate and to provide as best they can for the needs of the evacuees. It is certainly, I think, an illustration, as I am beginning to understand the process, of how we can more effectively work together among government departments and with the communities with various levels of government.

I am told by all accounts that we are doing a much better job than we did in the past, in '89 for example, in giving some element of certainty and some better understanding of the structure that exists for people who are evacuated and for host communities so that we do not add those kinds of uncertainties to the already obvious uncertainties that cause the situation to develop in the first place. I think that is good. I invite the member, as I have in the pa5t, if he has other comments, suggestions or concerns, I welcome those inquiries on his part. Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I believe the Senate of Canada is entertaining some sort of a bill at this time, the intent of which is to put restrictions on cars as to the mode of fuel that they can use. They have to phase out gasoline over a period of years. I think California is looking at this and I know that the government is looking at alternative fuels for the fleet. I wonder if the minister could inform us as to what has been happening lately in this area *

(2020) Mr. Pallister: We certainly are conscious of the number of these environmental initiatives in our department because we are pursuing them. As far as the specific one the member alludes to, I cannot give him detail on that at this point. I can tell him that we do use, for example in the fleet vehicle agency, recycled oil. I can tell him in terms of sustainable development concepts that we are doing a paper recycling program known as Paper Rescue that you might have heard of; which was implemented back in '90 originally. What that does is-it has expanded now into 44 different locations across the province.

We are saving a·lot of trees. The member I am sure appreciates that. In '94, 110 tons of paper was recovered and recycled by this program alone. No doubt the member has seen throughout the Legislative Building itself the blue baskets for recycling purposes. As well, over '94 over 14,500 Winnipeg telephone directories were collected from government offices in Winnipeg. That is about 24 metric tonnes of material that was diverted from landfill sites. That is a saving of over 400 full-grown trees.

Newspaper recycling: That has been taking place here and is implemented in the Legislature itself and is implemented in 27 other buildings. That is going on. Composting at the Brandon Correctional Institution -in our government greenhouse we have been composting kitchen waste from the Woodsworth and Legislative Building since November of '92. In fact, the Norquay building as well joined that program last year and to date approximately 16 metric tonnes of kitchen-preparation food wastes have been diverted from landfill.

Composting of grass clippings is going on at the Agassiz Youth Centre in Portage and the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.

2656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 Refillable cup program. Aluminum, plastic container collection bins have been set up throughout government cafeterias. Bottles, rigid plastic containers, we have implemented that in several facilitie�ooking oil recycling. An interesting area to me, I guess, is the water conservation pilot project where we retrofitted numerous of the toilet tanks and the faucets in 41 government facilities. They have been retrofitted with water conservation devices and we use less water now with every flush. This is important too.

As well, a 2 percent reduction in building water consumption in '94- 95 fiscal year has been achieved as well. Numerous initiatives along the lines of the sustainable development concept that the member eludes to with his question. Mr. Maloway: My question though specifically was to deal with the fleet and the attempt of the government to reduce the gasoline consumption and whether or not any initiative was being taken in the area of propane conversions, because that has worked with some fleets. Mr. Pallister: The member alludes to alternative fuels, and we did a trial with propane.

The technology was not advanced to the degree that there were significant cost savings that could be generated there for the taxpayer or in terms of environmental degradation that there were significant gains to be had in that case either. I think the single most significant illustration though of how we are working toward a cleaner environment is the fact that we have, with this particular special operating agency, 550 fewer vehicles burning fossil fuel right now in this province than we did just three years ago. There is considerable saving to be had there.

So I would think that we are making progress in that regard. Mr. Maloway: Then how many cars did the minister outfit with the propane conversion units, and how many are there currently in the fleet? Mr. Pallister: Four or five years ago this was a trial that was done at that time and there were less than a dozen vehicles utilized at that time. This is not to rule out the fact that it could be something that could be tried in the future. Mr.

Maloway: I appreciate the minister's response, and I would encourage him to take another look at it because, as he knows, a good chunk of Winnipeg cabs are burning propane and something, I think, certainly worth looking into. Not having a government vehicle, and not being overly desirous of one, I really am not sure how your fleet fuels itself. Do you have an arrangement with one supplier, or do you allow the people to gas up wherever they please, and, if so, how do they pay for it? Mr. Pallister: Each driver is given a fleet credit card, and they utilize the credit card to make their purchases.

Each year the Fleet Vehicles SOA approaches the suppliers in an effort to negotiate discounts and has been successful in doing that. The discounts can range from 4 to 5 percent discount on the pump price for gas. Mr. Maloway: So let me see, Mr. Chairman, if I understand this. The SOA goes to the independent gas stations and arranges a discount program. So I assume then that the person who drives the government car can gas up wherever they please. They have a government credit card, is that how it works?

So at some of the chains or some of the gas stations there is a discount they get which the government sees an immediate reduction on. Now, if the employee does not go to one of the stations that you have approached, then, I guess, there is no discount. *

(2030) Mr. Pallister: Just to clarify for the member, the SOA does not negotiate with individual retail outlets but does enter into arrangements with the companies like Mohawk, Co-op, Esso, Turbo, Shell. It is highly unlikely, probably it could be said that it is rare, that a government vehicle is filled up at an outlet which does not offer a discount of some significant size to the government of Manitoba. Mr. Maloway: Could the minister tell us what efforts the government is making to retrofit its buildings with new furnaces and items of this nature?

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2657 Mr. Pallister: What I can do is I can make some comments for the member's benefit on energy manage ment policy generally, and in the process of doing that, I hope that I will address his larger concerns about cost effectiveness in terms of energy management in our property management area. I will start off by talking about, sort of, the noncapital or low capital cost techniques that we are utilizing to reduce energy consumption in government-owned buildings and also in leased buildings.

They are, for example, limiting building ambient temperatures to 21 degrees Celsius during the winter and between 25 and 29 degrees Celsius during the summer.

Of course, as we would note recently, with the exception of the Legislative Building for the most part, it is one technique that we utilize to reduce costs, reducing ambient lighting levels, utilizing higher efficient lighting sources, reduction of the building domestic hot water temperatures to 38 degrees Celsius, modification of janitorial schedules to allow day cleaning which reduces the lighting and ventilation system operating hours that were an expensive requirement prior to that technique being introduced, shutting down building ventilation systems during unoccupied periods, evenings, weekends, holidays, for example, educating client occupants to co-operate with the energy management program by turning off lights when leaving unoccupied spaces, dressing in more casual but seasonably sensible clothing, establishing a preventative maintenance program to maximize equipment operating efficiency and life-expectancy period, cycling and parking lot electrical receptacles, reducing the steam operating pressures in selected powerhouses during low demand periods are examples of the way in which we are proceeding to manage the energy resources that we have more effectively with a view to cost savings, at the same time recognizing that the quality of the workplace and the environment that people work in is essential to productive behaviour by staff, as well.

These are examples of noncapital areas. We are also working with Manitoba Hydro on the Power Smart initiative, three different projects. Where feasible, converting from electric to gas is another example. An example of a specific project for the member for Elmwood was the recent renovation of the Ward Lab, where we spent about $50,000 and upgraded the facility in terms of how we monitor and how we best deliver energy effectively within that building. There would be one specific project as an example to the member. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, under the area of Office Equipment Services, I was going to ask the minister whether he had an inventory of government computer equipment. I have understood from a source, anyway, that the government does not have a list of computer equipment, that, in fact, each department has lists, but they are incomplete, and nobody really knows what is going on in there with regard to all this equipment. Now, I am sure the minister will have a clarification of that. Mr. Pallister: Certainly, Mr.

Chairman, the purchasing of computer equipment is a decentralized responsibility, so our department is not engaged in central purchasing of computer equipment on behalf of all other government departments; rather individual departments have relative autonomy in dealing with the procurement of computer equipment based on their own unique circumstances. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I understand the Finance department has undertaken a program to upgrade the computer equipment, so there is some sort of consistency within the government.

It seems to me that the old system of each department buying its own equipment, and all of this equipment being incompatible with one another was basically from a bygone era with this new system. The minister has just told me a minute ago that, in fact, the departments are still buying their own individual computer equipment. Mr.

Pallister: The member alludes to a problem that is a concern I think to all provincial governments and the federal government, and I am sure not just in this country or in our provinces, but elsewhere as well, and that is the whole issue of microcomputer maintenance and service and purchasing, as well. We provide the microcomputer maintenance and service for various internal and private sector agencies and co-ordinate them depending on their location in the

2658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 province. In certain areas, we contract with private sector suppliers to do the maintenance work, and other work is done by our own Supplies and Services department in the Office Equipment area for approximately 5,000 microcomputers and 3,000 printers, so the member is quite correct in alluding to the complexity of the problem.

There is an initiative called ITRO, Information Technology Review Office, that is looking into the development of more open systems, and the member is far more computer literate than I in these areas, so he may be aware of this initiative already, but with an idea to developing more open systems where there is more compatibility and so on in those systems. I can tell him , though, that in terms of the Supply and Services aspects of this operation, two fiscal years ago Supply and Services took over the responsibility for providing a cost-recoverable service to maintain the computer equipment that we have.

Just to give an idea to the member of the relative activity that has gone on in that area, during the 1992- 93 fiscal year Office Equipment Services recorded over 1,800 service calls of which about 1,200 were performed by our staff, over 600 by private sector vendors. In 1993-94, there were almost 2, I 00 calls recorded, and for this past fiscal year, 3,400 calls. So the level of service required in our microcomputer area is definitely on the increase. That is an increase of about 45 percent over the previous fiscal year. *

(2040) As far as the breakdown for Office Equipment Services versus external vendors, roughly again, 2,600 calls were handled by Office Equipment Services and about 800 by external vendors. Our Office Equipment Services technicians are also available to provide help to desk-type service, total hours between April of 1994 and March of this year, about 580 hours to client departments at no charge. This has the effect of lowering the total cost to the client through direct avoidance of service calls and sourcing compatible quality parts at the lowest price for the machinery they have.

As far as microcomputer parts, total costs associated with normal repairs and with the ITRO-approved rebuilds, over 300 ITRO-approved rebuilds and up grades, approximately $500,000 by centrally acquiring those parts through our Office Equipment Services department, and we estimate savings of about $80,000 to the taxpayer. There is some information for the member. Mr. Maloway: I would like to also ask the minister about the reference he makes to rental agreements and the fact that there are evidently something like 13 ,000 office machines. I assume those are fax machines and photocopying machines and so on.

What is the policy of the government, or the evolving policy of the government, regarding these machines? Are they looking at some sort of standardization of the type of machines that they are buying or standardization of the maintenance contracts? Mr. Pallister: I will attempt to describe the process in general terms. In essence, the standing order is prepared, specifications are outlined in conjunction with discussions with departments, various client departments. Various suppliers are then approached. The prices are procured.

The particular machine or service required is categorized, based on generally things like size or usage, and then the lowest price hopefully made available to the departments. So there is, in essence, an element of standardization that occurs as a consequence of the response to the specifications. Through that process, I guess the end result that we all hope for is that we have a cost efficient service.

An example of one of the things that we have done with regard to photocopiers, to try to and effectively have reduced costs, is that we have set up approximately 100 key copiers which. provide the departments with better functionality, better quality service and better supplies. These key copiers are placed in identified areas of greater use and then are available to various client users. For example, in the provincial government building in my home town, that is one of the key copier areas.

This reduces the number of individual installations for photocopiers, while at the same time allowing each of these departments access to a better quality, faster

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2659 service than would be the case with separate entities, separate copiers in each separate government office or work area As far as in 1994-95, there were 27 photocopier upgrades to better featured equipment at less cost to government, and eight new key-controlled copiers were added to this program. On an ongoing basis, this part of our department continues to evaluate the requirements of our clients and locates copier centres as required, specifically with regard to reducing the cost and providing, whenever possible, two-sided copying to the client department.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, is any thought being given to try to further reduce the paper in the government by having documents scanned, by means of optical scanners, into computers, into hard drives and thereby reducing the amount of paper that the government is using in a year? There is a tremendous amount of paper produced around here, as all of us know. A lot of it never gets used and it is certainly technologically possible. Some industries are at the point now where they are almost in a paperless office situation through the use of scanning machines and computer technology. Mr.

Pallister: The member makes a valid point, a valid assertion I think that the overall objective is to reduce the outflow of paper unnecessarily. The technological advances that he refers to, the scanning and so on which are certainly impressive and exciting are something that would probably be best undertaken on a decentralized basis within given client departments that would avail themselves most appropriately of that service.

I can tell him that we have pushed forward in attempting to increase the percentage of our copiers that are capable of two-sided copying as a single illustration of an attempt to reduce paper. I can tell him that over half our copiers now are two sided. *

(2050) Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister a question about the proposed special operating agency for the postal services. Now, I realize that it is still in the planning stages, but how does the minister envision this special operating agency taking form and how will it change? How will the operation change from the way it operates today versus the way it will be operating in the future? Mr.

Pallister: Well, the objectives, of course, with the special operating agencies, whether in existence or planned are the same, to provide quality services at less cost, to provide a greater efficiency and to become perhaps more responsive than was the case in the past to the needs of those clients whom we serve. Recognizing that we have customers in our department is something that we are doing and no different from a retail business, private sector operation. We know that we have to become the agency of choice when we provide services to our clients.

We have to have the attitude that we will be as efficient, as effective, as capable as possible in the delivery of those services that we are responsible for providing. So, in the interests of doing those things, the SOAs that we have thus far implemented which are at various stages of development have attempted to make, I guess a cultural change if you will within them which recognizes those facts and have done that to varying degrees of success given the fact that they are at varying stages of making that transition.

In the area of postal services, there have been many changes on an ongoing basis over the last few years and this is sort of another step in the journey, I would suppose. Becoming a special operating agency is just another step along the road to continuous improvement that this department and certainly the postal services aspect of this department are attempting to continue to travel.

Just as an example of improved efficiencies in postal services, at one time we used a postal truck, government postal truck and four full-time employees to take mail from the Legislature, I guess, into various other government offices around the city and that cost approximately a quarter of a million dollars. What we do today is we utilize a private courier firm and they provide that service to us at now less than $70,000. So there would be a single example with, by all accounts,

2660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 improved capability. At a cost that is less than a third of the pr evious cost, this service is being done. No one re alistically expects that our postal services, just because they will perhaps become an SOA in the not too distant future, to provide the same level of service for less than a third of the cost, but on the other hand, we know that if we continue to look for cost efficiencies we will fmd them, and if we do not, we will not, so we will look for them. Mr. Maloway: What is the name of the courier service the minister just re ferred to? Mr.

Pallister: Dynamex. Mr. Maloway: Could the minister tell us then, at what point-because I believe he said that this service given to Dynamex was taken away from the postal service. This is a service that the postal service used to handle, no? Mr. Pallister: That particular impro vement was made over three years ago. The recent contract, and that was the figure I alluded to, was just re negotiated and was a figure of less than $70,000. So they had a thr ee-year contract initially which just came up for renewal, and they came in at a lower price this time. Mr.

Maloway: So is the minister saying he saved $70,000 or the contract was for $70,000? Mr. Pallister: The contract was for less than $70,000. The actual cost, not in constant dollars but in actual dollars four years ago, was over a quarter of a million dollars for that same service. Mr. Maloway: Just a couple more questions to the minister . I had a question re garding-he made reference to the seven sites-this is under security and parki ng that are contracted to priv ate security services.

I was wondering if he could provide us with a list of these seven sites, and the list of the companies that are prov iding these priv ate security services, and, certainly, if possible, to flesh out the information as to how long the private services have been providing this service. Mr. Pallister: I have some of the information the member re quested, not all though, but as far as the security contracts are concerned, there were two-year contracts with a third year negotiable option which was that third year option was re commended to minimize cost increases as had been seen in past for contracts.

For hanger TS, Pinkerton's of Canada, that particular contract has expired, and we have now installed a new security system that is centrally monitored. In the W oodsworth system, Inner-tee Security, Assiniboine Community College, we do that one internally, there is in-house security, as well, the Legislative Building, the Archives, Law Courts, Portage and Brandon Provincial Buildings, the Thompson Provincial Building, Manitoba Developmental Centre in Por tage, the Brandon Mental Health Centre in Brandon.

For the member's information, there are mobile patrol and alarm re sponse services provided in Winnipeg to numerous government-owned facilities. In addition, 59 alarmed government sites are checked by the mobile patrol when an alarm is activated. In terms of security, that gives the member a broader perspective, perhaps. In Brandon, there is mobile patrol and alarm response pr ovided at the Brandon mental hospital, Brandon courthouse, Rideau Park, Ag Services provincial buil ding, Land Titles, the rural cabinet office and the Department of Highways yard and office.

Numer ous sites in Portage Ia Prairie are provided mobile patrol and alarm response services, as well. Mr. Maloway: I did not ask about the mobile patrol, but I thank the minister for answering it anyway. I was asking specifically about the seven sites that are contracted out to pr ivate security services, and he has given me, I think, one or two of them, but I wanted the sites, who they are contracted to, and were they tendered contracts? Mr. Pallister: I am sony, could the member re peat the last part of his question? Mr.

Maloway: I was looking for the seven sites that are contracted to private security services, and I wanted

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2661 the name of the private company. I wanted to know whether each of those seven contracts was tendered. Mr. Pallister: They were tendered. We are just attempting to get the names for the member, but I can tell him they were tendered. We do not have that information for the member here, but we can certainly get the information for the member and make it available to him in the near future. *

(2100) Mr. Maloway: I thank the minister for that commitment. I would like to ask him a final question and that is, he makes reference to reviewing existing leases regarding parking and security, and I was interested in knowing how many leases the government was involved in as far as Parking and Security was concerned and what was the motivation behind renewing the leases.

I make the assumption that it is the same as his private sector leases where, when the real estate market dropped then, of course, the government was well within its right to look for a better renegotiating position as far as getting a better price from the private sector. People were concerned and I assume that his motivation is the same here. Mr. Pallister: The member is partly correct in his assumption that we do review the leases with a view to procuring renewal at the lowest possible price for the taxpayers of the province. We also, of course, review the leases to ascertain the level of service required.

For example, in the case of parking lot patrols where there are fewer vehicles, fewer stalls than was the case prior, we would hope to achieve cost savings on the new contract for security in that particular instance. Naturally, as with any of the tender documents that we prepare in our department, we are reviewing them meticulously to determine that they are adjusted in such a manner as to result in the lowest possible cost in response to the tender. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, that is obviously not the question.

The minister is the one that makes the statement that he is reviewing existing leases for Parking and Security, and so my question is, how many leases exist in the first place? How many leases are there that he is reviewing? Mr. Pallister: I am sorry, I assumed the member was still referring to security and that aspect, and that is why I was responding in the way I was. I believe what he is alluding to is simply how we make arrangements for parking for staff in various government buildings. That is something that is done as part of the actual lease arrangements that we enter into.

When the member asks or makes comment on us reviewing the parking requirements, we are doing that in conjunction with the regular reviews of the leases that we are entering into with properties that we have. So as is the case throughout other services that we provide in our department, when a lease comes up for renewal, we examine the parking requirements and, as I said earlier, if there are fewer parking requirements, for example, then we expect to pay less for parking than would be the case if there were more. Mr. Maloway: So how many are there? How many leases do you have? Mr.

Pallister: We have 260 leases and with virtually all of them, there is some parking element to the lease. So to separate into a subcategory of some kind, I do not think that I can do that for the member. Suffice to say that the vast majority of leases make reference to parking within their terms. Mr. Maloway: This concludes the questions that I had for the minister, and perhaps we could go line by line and pass the department and the minister's salary. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1. Administration (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $369,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $39,200-pass. (

c) Finance

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $635,900-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $163,500-pass. (

d) Human Resource Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $442,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $11 0,600-pass.

2662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 (

e) Systems

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $351,40 0--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $60,200-pass. (

f) Lieutenant Governor's Office

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $97,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $62,500-pass. 2.Property Management (

a) Executive Administration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $157 ,600--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $22,1 00-pass. (

b) Physical Plant (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $17,246,20 0--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $32,047,200 -pass;

(3) Preventative Maintenance $161,000-pass;

(4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1 ,670,000}-pass. (

c) Leased Properties

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $45,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $55,802,400-pass. (

d) Property Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $370,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $247,000-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($250,100}-pass. (

e) Security and Parking

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,513,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $480,900-pass. (

f) Accommodation Cost Recovery ($37,048,200) -pass. Resolution 8.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $70,125,000 for Government Services, Property Management, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. 3. Supply and Services (

a) Executive Administration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $170,10 0--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $14,500-pass. (

b) Government Air Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,324,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $5,299,400-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($8,623,900}-pass. (

c) Office Equipment Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $478,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1,321,30 0--pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1, 799 ,500}-pass. (

d) Purchasing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,287,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $390,000 -pass. (

e) Materials Distribution Agency-pass. (

f) Telecommunications

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $950,900-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $4,61 1,100-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4,876, 700}-pass. (

g) Postal Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $786,100-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $463,600--pass;

(3) Postage $5,000,000--pass;

(4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4,850,000) -pass. (

h) Land Acquisition

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations-pass.

G) Fleet Vehicles Agency-pass. Resolution 8.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,946,800 for Government Services, Supply and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. * (2110) 4. Accommodation Development (

a) Accommodation Development

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2, 148,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $718,500-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($475,000}-pass. (

b) Workshop/Renovations

(1) Salaries, Wages and Employee Benefits $1 ,900,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $248,000-pass;

(3) Workshop Projects $2,575,000-pass;

(4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4, 723,600}-pass.

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2663 Resolution 8.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,392,100 for Government Services, Accommodation Development, for the fiscal year e�ding the 31st day of March, 1996. 5. Land Value Appraisal Commission (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $79,200-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $66,300-pass; (

c) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($57,400�pass. Resolution 8.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $88,100 for Government Services, Land Value Appraisal Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996; 6. Disaster Assistance (

a) Emergency Measures Organization

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $589,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $253,000-pass. (

b) Disaster Assistance Board (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $118,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $37,700-pass. Resolution 8.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $998,400 for Government Services, Disaster Assistance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. 7. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Capital Projects $13,012,300 -pass; (

b) Departmental Capital $249 ,900-pass. Resolution 8.7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,262,200 for Government Services, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. · The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Government Services, item l.(

a) Minister's Salary $22,800. At this point we request the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item. Item 1. Administration (

a) Minister's Salary $22,800-pass. Resolution 8.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,354,900 for Government Services, Administration, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Government Services. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Environment Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the cnt1cs the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? [agreed] Shall we leave the clock running? [agreed] ENVIRONMENT Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Environment. Does the honourable Minister of Environment have an opening statement? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Chairman, I presume my critic would like this to be as abridged as possible. First of all, however, let me express my appreciation for the dedication and effort of the staff .

The Department of Environment is not a large department, and they have managed to keep the issues in front of them and provide sound environmental management over the past year of which I think they can all be justifiably proud. First of all, let me read the mission statement as the department has outlined into the record, and that is simply to ensure a high quality of environment for present and future generations of Manitobans.

Briefly, let me say that we have a professional staff with a high degree of professional and technical competence, in my opinion, and Manitoba has developed a good reputation across the country in terms of our involvement which generally exceeds the level

2664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 199� of involvement given the size of the population of our province relative to other jurisdictions. Manitoba has had the lead or been very active in a number of initiatives, including water quality objectives, harmonization of regulation, which I would like to touch on later, ozone-depleting substances control and contaminated sites legislation. I am very proud of what I consider a very effective emergency response team, and I am pleased to indicate that, in my view, there is a good level of morale and sense of purpose among the members of the department.

There are a number of issues which are consuming a lot of departmental time. As I mentioned, harmonization of regulation at the national level through the Canadian Council of Ministers of Environment has been a priority item for literally years. Partnerships with local governments have taken on singular importance in recent years, as well as a much closer liaison with all other departments of government. In day-to-day operations, we are focusing much more on regional solutions and developing innovative approaches to enforcement, in fact developing an alternative approach to the command and control philosophy.

We are placing greater reliance on setting objectives and targets and standards, as opposed to prescribing specific technologies and approaches in environmental control. We are extending our resources through involvement of others, using delegation and empowerment and using financial instruments, licences and orders to ensure clients respect the compliance and practise environmental stewardship. The department has a very active continuous improvement initiative.

In November of the past year, the department adopted a continuous improvement plan being led and implemented by an implementation team within the department with a full commitment of senior departmental management. The mission has been to lead a process for involving everyone in the department and continuously improving how work is done to best meet customer expectations of service and quality and the vision to deliver the highest quality of service to achieve the best value for tax dollars. The focus is on satisfying needs as identified by our clients.

There has been a considerable amount of work usin� training, communications and pilot projects in thf south-central region and financial services bein� brought up to speed by target date. Other goals in this initiative have included awareness integration into the strategic planning process and consultation with external contacts. *

(2120) Let me say just a word or two about co-location of the department. I am not sure if my critic has been aware of the joint initiative between the province and the federal authorities to potentially co-locate the two departments. The federal department is also looking for new physical property at the same time as the provincial department is.

I would have to be perfectly candid and say that I am not giving this much more than a 50-50 chance of achievement, but it is certainly a goal that I would support, but I sense that there may be more time needed to pull things together than what may be available to us, plus there is always a question about whether or not the provincial expectation of cost capabilities as compared to federal cost allowances for housing and space, whether or not we can find compatibility in that. It would be a first in Canada, and there are common needs that could be served.

Perhaps I am not optimistic enough, but I put on the record that it would be a laudable objective but one which I think may be a while in coming. During the last fiscal year, as I said, I believe we have a very capable emergency response unit, and during the past fiscal year, the department responded to 516 calls through the emergency system involving 394 environmental accidents. With contaminated sites, we are continuing to work on the legislation in that respect and leading in a fair bit of the discussion across the country in relationship to how we should be managing the contaminated site liability issue.

Bristol Aerospace continues to be an interesting case, and I would just like to point out that a ground water

June 26, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2665 remediation facility started operating in 19 94. The param eters for the facility are reported monthly to the department, and to date, all reported parameters have fallen within the criteria, so I would like to indicate that I think not only did we deal with that issue from a direct fallout from the discovery of the contaminated water supply, but there are ongoing eff orts being put forward by the company itself. I should touch on the Domtar issue for a moment.

We issued an operating licence in September '94 to Domtar to allow Triwaste to commission their new thermal-phase separation unit on the Transcona site, a test unit for soil cleanup. The test has now been completed, and if results are successful, a second director's order will be issued to Domtar to complete the soil remediation which will take from 12 to 18 months. Baseline environmental risk assessment was submitted and approved in 19 94, as required by the director's orders.

Something that the opposition may well want to spend some time discussing is the prevention initiatives that we are now embarking on, which, again, reinforces a shift in Manitoba's approach to environmental protection from control and remediation to prevention. The branch that I referred to was established in '93, to maintain the management of new program initiatives within the department, such as waste reduction and prevention, ozone-depleting substances and to promote the application of practices that avoid the creation of waste.

It is my expectation that this will be part of a thrust that is occurring all the way across the country because every jurisdiction is now finding that they need to spend more time on pollution prevention, so that they can eventually reduce their demands in relationship to long-term responsibilities for command and control or cleanup responsibilities. Perhaps I should spend a moment on waste reduction and prevention. We have been successful in a number of areas in getting towards our 50 percent reduction. The tire recycling program, which I am sure my critic is well aware of, was set up in '93.

In its first full year of operation, it recycled the equivalent of one million tires, which was funded by a tax which has now become a levy of $3 on new tires that was fully dedicated to the fund in support of this function. Those dollars have now been turned over to an arm's-length stewardship corporation, as an arm's length government body to manage these funds. During that process, we have now cleaned up over a hundred waste disposal grounds and eliminated their tire piles, and I am sure that they, as a result, have pick�d up a fair bit of cash in support of maintaining their program.

The board is made up of the Canadian automotive association, the Rubber Association, the Western Canadian Tire Dealers and Retreaders Association and the deputy minister of Environment as a direct appointment from government. Balding material and recycling, which has been the topic of some considerable discussion over the last year is now a reality in over 70 municipalities across the province. We are fully expecting the City of Wi nnipeg to come on stream this fall.

Under this program, support payments to municipalities will be up to $15 2 a tonne for materials recycled from a depot or a curbside and the City of Winnipeg will be eligible for $12 8 per tonne from a curbside and $84 for depot programs. It is expected to recover in excess of 80,000 tonnes of packaging and fibre materials from residential waste stream once we have this program fully operational. In 1995-96 the emphasis will be on smooth transition to having the stewardship corporations in place to provide funding for programs to promote tire and multimaterial recycling across the province.

New waste minimization efforts for used oil composting and hopefully construction waste will also be pursued. A plan for household hazardous waste needs some additional work. Along that line I should point out that I believe we have in excess of 6,000 tonnes of ONP currently being recycled annually in the province, but that means we are getting less than 20 percent of the estimated 35,000 tonnes of ONP, old newsprint, out of the system, and we hope that the new multimaterial collection system will remedy that. Given the high price of newsprint, we think that this will also become industry driven very quickly.

2666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 19 95 Another objective that we have in the short tenn is to have an oil recycling and collection system come on stream. We now have an opportunity to partner with the two western provinces and we think that very quickly we will be able to get that initiative up and running. I presume we will be touching for a few minutes on the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, for which I am also responsible. It was a very successful fund year this past fiscal year for projects approved under the fund. The authority totalled just over $3.5 millio n.

Support was provided to 215 projects for waste management and recycling initiatives, environmental industries, Environmental Youth Corps and other sector areas such as water conservation, supply, agricultural development, urban environment, Endangered Spaces and species, and also for education. We provided funding for the development and implementation promotion of a number of innovative projects in support of sustainable development, and we will spend some time later discussing that, I am sure.

We have been involved in a number of initiatives, some of which become much more important viewed in the larger context. Having Clivus Multrum move to Winnipeg as its headquarters for producing its composting toilets and the plastic moulding expertise at Acrylon Plastics with facilities based here in Winnipeg and Winkler, allows them to produce here for world-wide distribution, plus gives us the opportunity to have that method of dealing with human effluent used much more aggressively in our own jurisdiction. I am turning fairly quickly here.

I would only indicate that I will not spend any time on regulatory initiatives, but let me indicate that the stubble-burning initiative has, in my view, worked out extremely well after having had another year under our belt. Last fall was again a situation where we saw a much more compatible situation between agricultural burning and the urban centres. The State of the Environment Report was published again this year and we will discuss that, I am sure, later on. Mr. Chainnan, I will invite questions from my critics. Mr. Deputy Chairperson : I thank the Minister of Environment for those comments.

Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Selkirk, have any opening comments? * (21 30) Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Yes, I do, Mr. Chainnan. I want to begin by thanking the minister for his abridged version of his opening remarks. He made many, many important points, ones that we will be exploring and looking into further as we proceed this evening. I want to pay tribute to both of my predecessors as the critics for the official opposition. That is the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) and the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh).

Both of them did an excellent job representing our party on environmental issues over the last number of years. I want to use this time we have this evening to gain infonnation regarding environmental issues, this being my first Estimates as the newly appointed critic. I want to take the chance to familiarize myself more with environmental issues and use this opportunity tonight to do so. As I mentioned to the minister earlier, as a guide I would like to go through the 19 95 State of the Environment Report.

I think it is an excellent resource for me as a critic and it will serve as a useful discussion document this evening. In particular, I wanted to concentrate on issues related to water and to waste management. If we do, hopefully we will have a chance to get through and deal with the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and I want to put on the record that I hope the minister will be bringing forward or talk to his House leader to bring forward the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation so we can raise issues regarding that corporation as well.

I propose that we pass the Estimates as a whole and that we, instead of going line by line, ask questions

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEl\1BL Y OF MANITOBA 2667 related to all issues here this evening, and when we are done, we just go, pass the line by line. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the critic for the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practi ce, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item and now proceed with . consideration of the next line. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present.

Mr. Cummings: On my immediate left is Norm Brandson, the Deputy Minister of Environment At the end of the table is Wolf Boehm responsible for finances; Serge Scrafield over by the fan, assistant deputy minister responsible for approvals and everything else that we can give him; and Carl Orcutt immediately to Norm's left, acting deputy minister from time to time, assistant and responsible for enforcement. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now on item l. (

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $321, 400, on page 53 of the Estimates book and on page 23 of the yellow supplement book. Mr. Dewar: I just wanted to raise one issue here. Last year, I contacted the deputy minister regarding the sale of the AMSCO cast products plant in Selkirk to a company in Edmonton called Quality Steel. I believe the deputy minister then contacted the person in Edmonton and I assume dealt with all the issues that were raised by the president or I believe he is a vice president of Quality Steel. I just want to know or ask what issues were raised by the representatives of Quality Steel?

I just want to know what issues were raised by this company. Mr. Cummings: Every time we have a new investment or a turnover of some of these sites where there is potential for site contamination, there is a review by government or by responsible authorities. I presume that was the first part of his concern at that time and that was what I understand the department followed up on that site to check for contamination and if there was any liability associated with the site. (Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) I sort of missed the second part of the question.

Do you want to know what the result of that investigation was? Mr. Dewar: Yes. Mr. Cummings: We received assurances that dollars have been allocated for appropriate cleanup of the site, management of the site by the existing owner. Those dollars have been set aside to our satisfaction. Mr. Dewar: What were some of the problems that were found on that site? Mr. Cummings: Your usual contaminations that you get around a foundry. You have oil, lubricants and some associated wastes. You might get a bit of lead I suppose, but I am not sure that was even one that we found.

It was not seen to be an unusual site, I am told. Mr. Dewar: Was the ground water in the immediate area tested? Mr. Cummings: We would have to check to see what all was done in review of that. We might find the answer in a minute or two if you want to proceed with another line of questioning. Other than that, I will have to get back. Mr. Dewar: I do want to thank the deputy minister for responding to my concerns. The business was sold and the jobs there were saved, so I thought that was-1 am pleased that they took such immediate action to deal with the concerns raised by the individuals from Quality Steel. Mr.

Cummings: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could put something on the record that flows from that type of question. Generally, in reviewing these sites what we end up with, as I have learned to understand it, is a risk

2668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 19 95 analysis of the site. If you were asking, was their ground water checked, I suppose the first question would be, was there any potential for it to have got into ground water? If it was a heavy clay with no sign of it having penneated down very far then you are dealing with a much different situation than if you are sitting where there is potential for penneation into a sensitive aquifer or things of that nature.

We have found a number of times in the Red River Valley that the contamination has been contained more to the upper layer until you get over toward where the Bristol situation was and further east as well. I do not know if that helps, or not. Mr. Dewar: That is fine. I am prepared to pass this line. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliff e): The item under discussion is item l. (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $32 1 ,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $78,60 0-p ass. 1. (

c) Financial and Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $81 7,700. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Chairman, under this particular line, the department looks after the administration of The Freedom of lnfonnation Act requirements. Have there been any in the last year? *

(2140) Mr. Cummings: Each department has a Freedom of Information officer. Wolf Boehm is our officer responsible for responding to the requests. We had 11 Freedom of lnfonnation requests.

They ranged from two requests on the Domtar site; information regarding the review process of the Portage water diversion project in '91, '94 which would be more commonly known as the Pembina project; a copy of records and correspondence regarding a fonner gasoline service station and there were three requests on the one site; information regarding my international travel, that was an easy one; infonnation from Woodlands; and information regarding toxic waste sites in the province-really nothing too complicated. Mr. Dewar: I am prepared to let it pass. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.

Radcliff e): The item under discussion is 1. ( c )

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $8 1 7,700- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $23 1 ,800-pas s. The next item for discussicm is 2. Environmental Management $10 ,9 14 ,000. The first item for discussion is (

a) Environmental Operations

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,347,400-pas s. Mr. Dewar: Excuse me. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliff e): Sorry, we have a question. Mr. Dewar: I do want to ask a few questions related to-this is where one would ask questions related to the enforcement of legislation and regulations pertaining to The Environment Act? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliff e): I am sorry. Could you repeat the question? Mr. Dewar: I would like to ask some questions about environmental licensing procedure, and this would be the appropriate line? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliff e): What is your question? Mr.

Dewar: Okay, good. Thank you. I want the minister to provide to us today and update us on the proposed arena project and the environmental licensing procedure of the proponents. Mr. Cummings: First of all, the proponent has to provide information to the federal authorities who will be responsible for screening whether or not there is federal involvement, in this case maybe a federal involvement whether or not they can answer the questions appropriately in the screening process so the feds can advise on whether the process they have been presented with has been acceptable or otherwise.

The issue of the arena, whether or not it is a class of development under our existing Environment Act, that

June 26, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2669 decision has to be made. But you can read as well as I can, if you look at the Environment Act and list of developments, it is not in there. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) We have a number of other things, however, that the proponent· has to do in order to make sure that we do not have a problem on our hands. They have to make sure there is not contamination on the site. They have already taken steps in that respect. They have to fo llow all appropriate procedures and any activity that would occur on the site.

Manitoba Heritage has or will be reviewing the project as well. Based on any inf ormation we have received up to this point, there does not appear to be contamination onsite. There have certainly been contaminants there at one time or another, but there is no evidence that we have a contaminated site on our hands or that it is going to be a problem. Just let me be a little bit more explicit about the fe deral process. We are co-operating as well.

We are making sure the inf ormation is provided to the fe deral authorities so they can in fa ct decide in their screening process whether or not any process other than what is already begun needs to be fo llowed fo r environmental review of the site to meet their standards. That will be their decision. We have made no decision at this point either, but the inf ormation that I am giving you should give you a pretty clear picture of the fact that this project is an awful lot like a number of other ones we are faced with from time to time.

The issues that are raised are every bit and in many cases much more so planning issues than they are environmental. Some of the questions that have been raised around the siting of the arena and what that means to that part of the city, relate more directly to some of the planning issues and decisions within Plan Winnipeg than they do to what would be classified as environmental issues under The Environment Act. Mr. Dewar: Does this project require a provincial environmental licence? Mr.

Cummings: As I said, it is not designated under the act, and at this point we have not made a final decision, but it does not appear necessary fo r it to be licensed under our act. Mr. Dewar: My review of the act and my extensive knowledge of this area leads me to assume that Class 2 developments, No. 5, it talks about recreation, multi purpose resorts, recreation and tourist developments that would not be included in there. Mr. Cummings: No. Mr. Dewar: So then the minister has said there has been some testing done at the site. Who did that testing, and what did they discover? Mr.

Cummings: First of all, we had the two departments, both fe deral and provincial, who did a review of the site, and, fo llowing on that as I understand it, the proponents have had consultants on site once they received permission to go onsite from the city. They have done testing, and to this point we have not fo und a problem. Mr. Dewar: As the minister is aware, we raised the concern of a possibility of PCBs, considering that it is a fo rmer Hydro substation that is currently on the site. There has been no identification of PCBs there currently. Mr. Cummings: None that I have been made aware of.

Just a minute, I will give you the most-any equipment onsite has been emptied and sampled, and there is no evidence of PCB contamination fo und, and so that is good news. I mean, unless you are of the view that you want to stop the project. Mr. Dewar: Stopping the project aside, it is good news that there is no contamination fo und in any soils in the province of Manitoba, of course. I still have a fe w questions here about the act, and I am interested in the Manitoba Environmental Council. Can the minister provide us with some inf ormation regarding this council and their recent activities? * (215 0)

2670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 19 95 Mr. Cummings: That is a reasonable question. It is no secret that this is not necessarily an ongoing love affair between the Manitoba Environmental Council and the minister's office. The Environmental Council is there by clause in the act to provide advice to the minister and to the ministry. At one point, I felt that the Manitoba Environmental Council was too close to provide advice, that they were lodged among the department virtually with their office and their personnel.

I do not mind people on an ongoing basis having the opportunity to ask the department and/or political people about activities, but I think there needs to be some kind of a fonnalized logical progression of giving and receiving advice. So I have reconstituted the Environmental Council primarily with the same players that were always there, plus a few more, and I guaranteed them access to me and to my office a minimum of four times a year for a minimum of two to three-hour meetings to provide ongoing advice on environmental matters and to exchange ideas.

We have accomplished a fair bit in the last six to eight months, and as much as we are now getting to the point where the council, instead of spending their time writing papers that they were presenting to the Clean Environment Commission and to every other public process-and they are still quite capable and able of doing that-they are also providing direct advice to the minister on issues, not only the issues as they are in front of us today.

We had a meeting last week which was somewhat interrupted, but we had at least half a meeting last week, and what we are working on is a situation where they will bring forward, and I will bring forward a mutually agreed agenda of future items that we see needing to be addressed, of an environmental nature, which means that they really have an opportunity to influence the thinking of myself and others prior to policy or decision being firmed up. At the same time, they have an opportunity to hear directly from the minister as to why we are moving in specific directions on matters of environmental concern.

Louisiana-Pacific is a situation where we have a licensing process that we followed through that we are quite proud of. There are people who sit on that advisory council who do not agree with our direction, but that is the essence of good public debate and public advice. I do not have to sit only with those who agree with me all the time to get a good understanding of the issues, and this is a council of that nature. The debate gets pretty exciting, let me tell you, but I think useful and a far better fonnat than used to occur, let us say, three years ago. Mr.

Dewar: How many members are on the council and who are they? Mr. Cummings: I cannot tell you the exact number, but we have people like Christine Singh, Bill Pruitt. I am told we have 11 . I can get you a list. We have the fonner head of Ward Lab. We have Mr. Will Grieve, Rick Howard, Bill Tumock, to name some of the names. We will get you a list. Mr. Dewar: Does the council have a budget and what is that amount? Mr. Cummings: No. Mr. Dewar: What level of remuneration do the council members receive for their advice? Mr. Cummings: None. Mr. Dewar: Is this a new practice? Mr. Cummings: No.

They never did receive a per diem. They still receive their expenses. Mr. Dewar: That is fine. I would like to ask some questions related to the different classifications, Class I, Class 2, Class 3 development of licensing requirements, the main differences between the different classifications. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman, I always have to be careful. This is sort of the reverse from the waste disposal ground classifications. Mr. Dewar: I will ask that one later.

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2671 Mr. Cummings: A Class 1 is being reviewed because of pollution concerns only. A Class 2 would be fo r pollution plus other issues, and Class 3 would be fo r large projects where there is designation by the minister. An example would be Conawapa We do not get that many Class 3s. Mr. Dewar: Yes, I did see those in the regulations, but what are the main diff erences in terms of the approval procedure? Mr. Cummings: A Class 2 would be a more complex issue, and you would be more likely to have a Clean Environment Commission public hearing process in reviewing it. Mr.

Chairman, I also have the names of the Manitoba Environmental Council. I can read them into the record. I have Christine Common-Singh, Rick Howard, Dr. Bill Turnock, Dr. Ian Rollo, Dr. Diane Malley, Dr. David Punter, Dr. Peter Miller, Will Grieve, Dr. Bill Pruitt, Dr. Derek Muir, and Mr. Jim Ball. There are a lot of doctors on there. That must be a healthy crew. Mr. Dewar: Is there a requirement fo r public hearings on all the level of classes or just 1, 2 or 3? Mr.

Cummings: I suppose you could argue that under any given circumstance, hearings could be called at any level, but they are much more discretionary in Class 1. I should put on the record, they are in fact discretionary fo r them all, but obviously the onus is-[interjection] It is not a matter of waiving it so much as it is a matter of actually deciding to do it. Waiving would indicate that they are mandatory and then waived, but it is the reverse. There is always a requirement fo r public publication of inf ormation. The public is never excluded in that sense. Mr.

Dewar: Who makes the final approval in each of the classes to grant a licence? Mr. Cummings: Classes 1 and 2 are directors' licences, and the minister would be the appeal. Class 3 is the minister signs the licence, and the next authority which would be cabinet would be the appeal. Mr. Dewar: Who is the current director of licensing? Mr. Cummings: Larry Strachan. Mr. Dewar: So if a group brings fo rward a project, and Mr. Strachan either approves it or denies it, that group can appeal that to you? *

(2200) Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman, it is not just Mr. Strachan. There are a number of directors who would have approval authority, but any director's decision is appealable to the minister's office. In fact, just fo r inf ormation, something that took a little while to sink in with me, and it is not entirely related to what you are talking about but does provide some excitement out there from time to time, and that is a director's order, fo r example, regarding a contaminated site.

Very often, people get very excited if they get an order, but sometimes an order has to be issued so that an appeal can be launched in order to finally get someone other than just the owner of the property involved in the cleanup. It is not as onerous as it sounds. It is actually meant to be user friendl y. Mr. Dewar: Has the government ever appointed an environmental mediator to settle disputes between groups? Mr. Cummings: Yes, not as often as probably we would like to, but we have had a fe w examples of where we have done it.

Remember that you need to have two willing parties at the table to be able to mediate. If somebody tells you to buzz off, it is kind of hard to have mediation concluded.

On a couple of occasions or maybe three or more, I cannot remember the exact number, it is not large, we have asked the chairman of the Clean Environment Commission to sit down with both parties, when it is not something that is necessarily an issue that he would hear in a licensing sense, but because of his independence and being seen to be outside of the department and at arms length from the minister, he is a very credible person to sit down and attempt to mediate on occasion, and, in fact, has given himself the

2672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, I 995 opportunity to do some upgrading, so he is increasingly capable of doing more of that. But a couple of instances where it should have worked, at least one party said, well, do we have to do this, and the truth of the matter is they do not have to. So if they walk away from the table, then mediation does not occur. Very often, it occurred around the siting of lagoons or siting of waste disposal grounds, those types of things where it is partly a planning issue.

I mean, you can engineer a safe solution for a landfill perhaps, but you do not want it next to your house. Well, we have regulations to protect it from being right next to your house. We also used Jenny Hilliard on one occasion to attempt mediation in the general scrap proposal to develop an extruding plant-recycling shredder fluff. I guess we had some success on the Teulon lagoon. Dale was involved in that one. Manigotagan sewage outlet, I believe we also had some success with that one, and Dale was involved there, as well, but it is not used as much as we would like it to be. Mr.

Dewar: Well, who decides how to use the mediation process? Is it the minister or do people come to you and ask, could you set up a mediator to help us settle this dispute? Mr. Cummings: Generally, it has been by our own initiative. I cannot recall if we have actually been-on one occasion, we were asked, but we had such an ingrained disagreement between the parties that I did not do it. So, occasionally, we would have directors who would recommend it or regional directors where they have a hot potato on their hands. It is sometimes more political than it is environmental, to tell you the truth.

Nevertheless, you have to get all the people to the table, and you have to have a credible mediator. I am not sure that we could legislate the requirement to have people appear at the table. I mean, they could appear there and then still not move. If they want to truly settle it, however, they need to be willing to enter into the discussion. I suppose it is very often ones that we were unable to successfully mediate where there are entrenched views that they simply do not want something, regardless of how many safeguards you offer them or issues that they might want in the licence.

Mostly, if they just do not want something, mediation looks like a sign of weakness on the part of the opponents, so they, generally speaking, refuse it. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to move to the next section, which is Environmental Management, but I believe some of the issues that I will be raising probably fall into both. Mr. Cummings: Leave it open. Mr. Dewar: Leave it open. Okay, that is fme. Mr. Cummings: He can pass it, but he can go back, if he wants to. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(

a) Environmental Operations

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,347, 400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1, 104,000 -pass. 2.(

b) Environmental Management

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,588,500 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $2,6 16 ,300-pass. 2.(

c) Legislation and Intergovernmental Affairs

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $16 2,500 -pass. Mr. Dewar: Where are you, sir? I just want to find out what page. Mr. Deputy Chairperson : Page 54, (c)(2). You do not have the blue supplementary book? Mr. Dewar: I had to give it away to somebody else. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Page 33. Are you there?

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2673 Mr. Dewar: Well, we obviously want to stop the process somewhere, so we can ask our questions that we want to ask. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Okay, we will finish this one. Item 2.(

c) Legislation and Intergovernmental Affairs

(2) Other Expenditures $95,3 00-pass. 2.(

d) Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation-pass. 2.(

e) Joint Environmental Assessment Review-pass. 2.(

f) Alcohol Beverage Container Recycling Program-pass. Mr. Dewar: I wonder if we can begin by just paying tribute to all those individuals who produced the State of the Environment Report fo r Manitoba 1995 Focus on Agriculture. I am probably giving too much praise to the government, but I do want to recognize all the men and women who put this report together and did all the background and the preparation of it. What does this report cost to produce? *

(2210) Mr. Cummings: Over two years, it would be about $95,000 which is remarkably low. We assigned one person within the department to begin the next report as soon as this one is published. We are somewhat in a flux, looking at fo rmat. As you can see, it is a pretty substantial publication to put out every two years.

When you are looking at trends and the direction of measurements, sometimes you find yourself repeating yourself year over year, because two years is almost not far enough apart to know whether you have a blip in the environment as a result of some weather condition or other matters or whether there is something truly occurring, changes in the condition of particular areas that you are looking at.

There is some consideration being given to publishing a fo cus publication every two years and doing a much more significant one along the lines of what you have in front of you every third one or some such rotation like that, not to avoid the responsibility of doing the report but to make it so that the trends are clearly representative of what is happening, and in the interim doing shorter fo cused reports. You could do something on water quality, agriculture, mining.

You could do something every two years, as we do now, but fo cus it more sharply on specific aspects and without doing all of the comparisons and trends the same way that we do every two years now. It is up fo r discussion, but when you compare our publication with what the fe ds have done, it cost them millions and millions of dollars to publish. I appreciate what the member has said.

He has gone up several notches in my estimation, because something that has always frustrated me somewhat is that there is a lot of independence put into this publication, and we ask each department to provide inf ormation, and then the Department of Environment plus some editorial contractee compiles the report, and it is intended to give as clear a picture as possible of what is occurring out there. From what I have seen of reports in some other jurisdictions, this is much more straightforward and readable. It is not written as deep research material. It is meant to be usable by schools.

The one question that needs to be perhaps addressed further is whether or not we should also be putting fo rward a report that is-now I am searching fo r words. When we look at what has happened in some of the other reports, I fm d some of them contain an awful lot of salesmanship, which this one, we have tried to keep it less that way, but we took a significant risk when we started to put in trends because there is always a question of whether you are accurately judging which way the trend is going.

The other question that needs to be asked about this type of reporting is if we should not be looking at a state of the environment but a sustainability or state of sustainable development. That, obviously, would not be an appropriate title but to look more at the sustainability of our practices.

2674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 Mr. Dewar: How many copies are produced, and how wide is the circulation of the document? Mr. Cummings: Five thousand reports are published. I would indicate that we have gone back to the original concept, which was that these would be distributed to schools and other libraries and free of charge to other individuals who may be interested. For a brief period of time we thought that the product was of high enough value that people would likely want to pay something for it, but we ended up with a number in storage.

So if we felt that if this was truly going to be out there and in the hands of as many people as possible, and if we believe it is as worthwhile as it is in putting the effort forward to do it, then we are better off to have those publications out there in appropriate hands as opposed to keeping them in storage. Just on the economic side, but I am told that 5,000 plus or minus a few, once you have everything set up and you start publishing, 5,000 is not an unreasonable number. Mr. Dewar: On page 7 of the report, I quote.

It says: Eventually, it is hoped that regular reporting will make environmental indicators as familiar as the cost of living index and the Gross National Product. My question is, how far is the department along in establishing such environmental indicators? Mr. Cummings: It is not something that we would develop in isolation. Council of Ministers is working on what would be environmental indicators. The national round table is working on what would be considered acceptable indicators of sustainability.

I spent a number of years on the national round table, and subcommittees of that round table worked and developed those indicators. They will be, at least in part, I think, adopted by CCME. It is more likely that is the direction we will go in getting reliable benchmarks as opposed to just indicators of the state of environment. We already have other indicators that we can use. I mean, we know what is considered good water quality. We know what is considered good air quality and so on, but those are not the only indicators of environmental quality. Mr.

Dewar: Do you know if other jurisdictions in Canada or North America, do they have environmental indicators? Mr. Cummings: I am not aware of any jurisdiction that has adopted a complete set of indicators of sustainable development or environmental indicators. I did not put on the record, however, where probably some of the more credible indicator work maybe ends up coming from, and that is, the IISD is working on indicators and is using Manitoba as a pilot. So we co operate with all three areas, the IISD, CCME and the federal authorities. Mr. Dewar: I would like to then move to the

section on water, one of the concerns I wanted to raise tonight. Of course, there are a number of issues that can be raised, but I do want to concentrate on that in the time we have available. I know the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) may be interested in raising some issues in this area as well. It was announced earlier, I believe, this week or maybe last week, that the federal government is withdrawing financial support to the Freshwater Institute of Winnipeg, which is currently, I believe, located on the campus of the University of Manitoba According to the press

article I have before me, the team is slated for a reduction from a staff of 54 to 16 . Is the minister aware of this staff reduction and the general withdrawal of funding? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman, in a general sense, we have been aware of the pending fall of the other shoe in a number of areas. There are going to be several shoes that are going to drop over the next couple of years with federal funding. This particular one is freshwater fish, so they are in an area that is pretty narrow in its scope.

Any interaction we would have with them in terms of whether this department would be directly impacted or not would be, I guess, on anything they do on water quality and associated fish habitat issues. Given the location of the member's riding, I can appreciate his interest in freshwater fish and what that might mean to the province. They do research, I am told, on areas such as mercury levels and other contaminants that

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2675 would be aff ecting freshwater fish, but they do not just serve Manitoba. I guess that is really where I am getting around to. They serve more than just Manitoba. So yes, we will lose something when we lose them, but it will not be irre parable. *

(2220) Mr. Dewar: What action then is the minister going to take to try to fight this job loss? Mr. Cummings: We have been meeting for the last number of months with federal Environment which has a lot more areas of responsibility than the provincial Department of Environment has. We are much more on the regulatory and quality monitoring side, and the fe deral area is much more dispersed and goes into a number of areas that cross over into Natural Resources. It is indicated to me by the department that the freshwater fish habitat is already pretty well covered by provincial activities.

That in itself will not disappear. We have had a number of issues that we have been discussing with the federal authorities in terms of reduction of funding, reduction of staff , and it has been a very integral part of discussion associated with CCME as well as just Manitoba to the federal authorities because this really even gets into harmonization; If they are going to withdraw from certain areas, if they expect the provinces to just pick it up, I suppose they might be whistling in the dark.

If they in some logical way want to reorient the responsibilities of the federal and provincial authorities, avoid duplication and overlap and at the same time make sure that we have more appropriate management of the issues, very often this could mean that the provinces could do more on the ground and respond more quickly to some of the issues.

If the feds would confine themselves to areas of research and perhaps more raw research as they have done-we have seen it in forestry and we have seen it in agriculture- instead of being all things to all people, the federal and provincial authorities could divide their responsibilities better, reduce the overall cost to all jurisdictions and manage our way out of what is going to be a declining capability on the part of the feds and to some extend the province of Manitoba and other jurisdictions to manage these. (Mr.

Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) What I fear, however, is that they are going to arbitrarily withdraw, they are not going to follow what might be, I think, a pretty well laid out plan that has been discussed at the staff level. If that is the case, we are going to have increasing problems. If we can get the federal authorities to move in an organized way with their reductions and share some of their responsibilities with us, maybe we can do more efficiently what they are doing today and save them some money at the same time, and then we could all win.

I am not overly confident that is what is going to happen. So there is going to be a lot of serious problems arise as we go through the next three years. The feds have laid out a three-year plan in terms of gross numbers for reduction of staff and resources, but I do not think they have laid out a three-year plan on how they may interact with provinces to make sure that there are not big gaps in the management of responsibilities. Mr. Dewar: Let us move to another issue.

That is the problems that are faced by our First Nations people, and again, it is from your report where they talk about the high number of cases of hepatitis A involving First Nations people. What role can the province play in ensuring that these communities can deal with this problem? Mr. Cummings: While I am getting a note from the department here, first of all, you are talking about a basic public health issue in terms of water quality and protection of public health and the water that they are using.

I am in danger of answering you in a way that gets me into a whole lot of other areas jurisdictionally within federal-pro vincial relationships. I mean, the federal-pro vincial relationship on responsibility for treaty and status residents within the province speaks

2676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 19 95 directly to that too, because we have responsibilities on and off reserve for delivery of infrastructure and infrastructure really will dictate the water quality in many respects. We work closely with the federal authorities, the same as the Department of Family Services, I would think. There are some of the communities that were able to co-operate much more closely with than others too in tenns of where we can be of use, but we, through our public health inspectors and Dr. Guilfoyle, the provincial public health officer, becomes involved in these issues.

But I think it goes back to really this issue is not going to be easily resolved until some of the larger issues are resolved around federal-provincial responsibility for infrastructure and delivery of health programs in all of our communities, including our native and remote communities. The remote communities are not the issue so much as those that are on reserve or off reserve in many cases. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Chainnan, again just moving along, we do have quite a bit to cover this evening.

Under the heading Watershed Management to Improve Water Quality: The watersheds can be influenced by two types of pollution, the point source pollution and nonpoint source pollution. It suggests that one of the ways to deal with this is to establish a buffer zone along waterways. Is the minister aware of any examples of where this is being done currently in the province? Mr.

Cummings: Yes, on a case-by-case basis, there are some communities and some areas where they are of their own volition moving to establish buffer zones where they recognize that perhaps there is activity going on that is helping to nutrify some of the water courses. I mean, we now have codes of practices being put out by agricultural organizations. Well, first of all, the code of practice in protecting water quality, reducing access to water courses by livestock where possible. That is one aspect.

Our agricultural regs, it will take time before the full impact of the regulations start to really produce measurable results, I suppose, but as you get new operations coming on stream and then as old ones are upgraded, they are developed in a way that is much more protective of any pollutant getting into the watercourse. *

(2230) It seems to me there is a project in several areas, but there is one on the Little Saskatchewan, south of Minnedosa, where they are literally fencing cattle out of the river. I have avoided regulation in that respect because there is such a variation. How do you define a surface water? You have to do it area by area. The member for Dauphin is sitting to your right and I am sure he knows as much about it as any of us do in tenns of what happens. He probably is to your right actually. Each area has certain specific problems but defining surface water and how you might define a regulation around that.

This is why I am an advocate, as our government has proven I think, that we want to establish a good working relationship with existing conservation areas and establish more where the people in the area are willing to do so. Lake Dauphin is actually, despite problems that are there, one of the better examples of where the local people have been given some responsibility. They have got involved, they are having battles locally.

But the fact that they are keeping them local battles and not asking for wise men from the south to come in with buckets full of cash to solve the problem which are unlikely to arrive in any volume in today's world, they are going to come up with better water quality in the long run. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Mr. Minister, I just wanted to clarify one comment that was made here. I was not quite sure whether you said, right or right winger. Mr. Dewar: As long as I am to his left. The issue that surfaced recently is the toxic blue green algae that has been discovered or tested for in

June 26, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2677 Manitoba, and I just want to ask the minister where in Manitoba are they currently doing testing for this algae? Mr. Cummings: Some of the ones that we ha ve, in fact we are doing some follow-up sampling on, from this report, is Pelican Lake, Rock Lake, three locations on the Pembina River upstream of Pelican Lake, approximately midway between Pelican and Rock and, again, approximately midway between Rock and Swan Lake. We are not even attempting to do the whole province.

We are doing some focused sampling, I understand, in the region, so that we get a picture of what is happening in a region, as opposed to a scatter-gun approach. We are also into Shoal Lake and Deacon Reservoir. If you recall, a year ago, there were some questions raised about potential problems in water that was coming into the Winnipeg water supply that never did reach a level that we needed to do anything about, but there was a short time when there was some concern about an algae bloom that was leading to the type of nasty stuff that-I do not think I can pronounce the name, to tell you the truth.

What did we call it? It is just called algae; that is, microcystis. Mr. Dewar: Well, has the department detected any of the algae in any of your samples so far? Mr. Cummings: Well, obviously, there was some detection last year. That is why there was some additional sampling being done this year, and, yes, there have been some samples that detected this algae, but none that are above acceptable levels. Let us put it that way. Mr. Dewar: In what areas of the province are you finding the algae? Mr. Cummings: I am sorry, I did not hear the question. Mr. Dewar: Where are you finding the algae? (Mr.

Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Cummings: I cannot give you specific locations and levels. This will all be published information when we are done. I am told that the most likely place to find it right now is probably farm dugouts where you will fmd levels that are detectible. Mr. Dewar: What action can the department take to treat the algae, to kill the algae? Mr. Cummings: Well, as I understand the situation, if we are able to study and determine locations and levels and so on, we have to decide what the risk factor is.

Anything that can be done to reduce the growth of algae, I suppose would work on this stuff, as well. To back up what I was saying a moment ago, it seems to me that-and I am certainly not a chemist or a biologist even things that we are starting to do in regular practice today, like aerating a farm dugout, will reduce algae bloom which will help avoid this type of toxic algae growing just the same as it would any other type of algae.

I do not think the intention-and I do not want the member to feel that there is impending doom out there, but it is something that we want to have information on in case we get a future situation where we have rapid growth and we need to know what the potential is for some of that to occur. Mr. Dewar: Has the department detected any levels of the liver toxin in Shoal Lake this year? Mr.

Cummings: We cannot absolutely say that there has not been any level detected in Shoal Lake, but I am pretty sure there has not been, and, certainly, we have not had any of the tests anywhere that have been level that have been unacceptable or of concern. Hot weather has something to do with this. It does not mean we will not. Mr. Dewar: How often is testing done in the Shoal Lake area; in particular, testing done for this particular algae? *

(2240) Mr. Cummings: We routinely have done testing monthly. With this program, I am told, the city has

2678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 19 95 been asked to take some additional samples, and that will give us a better picture. Mr. Dewar: Following up again in terms of Shoal Lake, we all know that is a source of Winnipeg's drinking water and it is a concern to all of us. There was a watershed agreement signed in 1994 between Ontario and the five First Nations bands bordering on Shoal Lake, and it states here that Manitoba had been invited to the discussions. Has Manitoba participated in the discussions so far. An Honourable Member: Are we participating? Mr.

Cummings: Well, yes, we are participating, but there ain't much happening. We have a problem, and I suppose we will now have a chance to try the new administration on for size in this respect There are two issues: one is just the straight issue of development in the area, but the second part of that is, we have always been of the view that there needs to be a management zone, if you will, in that area and that Manitoba should be entitled to be an active participant. The Rae administration seemed to put an enormous amount of emphasis on native participation.

I am not going to comment whether-like they certainly have a right to participate. The level of control and participation becomes part of the issue. The bands, at least one band said they would not talk to me. The only person they wanted to talk to was the Premier (Mr. Filmon). I mean that would be nice, but certainly if you want to have meaningful discussions, you have to allow some of us flunkies to get on with doing some of the work. That became an issue. You have to then look at if you are going to have regional management, is there going to be co-management of some of the resources?

First and foremost, what caused us grief over the last year is the complete abrogation of the Shoal Lake agreement that was signed between the City of Winnipeg, the province, the feds and Shoal Lake No. 40 Band. As I understand it, 40 now wants to get out of the agreement. The last letter I saw said they no longer recognize the agreement, as I recall.

So going back to Ruth Grier's time as Environment minister in Ontario, we have actively pursued discussions in this area The former premier certainly seemed to agree to enhancing the Shoal Lake water quality agreement and doing something in that area, but we really have not had much action in the last while, neither have we had much demand for development. The one band, 40 I guess, is still pushing for a road to go through there.

We believ� that would be the end of protection of the water quality in that area, to tell you the truth, that we really would have development spring up around what is a pretty pristine water supply source right now. So the answer is a qualified yes. Mr. Dewar: I wish the minister well in his discussions. An issue, of course, that I have to raise, I raise it I think every year, is the situation concerning the quality of the water that flows by my community in the Red River. At this point, in Selkirk the last number of weeks, we are forced to rely on the Red River to supplement our drinking water.

I believe it is 40 percent currently comes from the Red River, and residents of the community of Selkirk rely upon this water as their source of drinking water. The minister, of course, is aware that it is treated and all of us assume that it is safe to drink. What actions can the minister take, or is he prepared to take, to deal with the big, big issue of cleaning up the Red River? Mr.

Cummings: When you talk about water quality and water supply, and I know that you are focusing on water quality, but I also think that we should be talking in the broader sense about water quality and delivery of water to all the communities in the capital region, I always find it interesting that there is probably surplus capacity in the Shoal Lake system somewhere that could put water into Selkirk, but I am not saying that in the sense that we should be abrogating responsibility to clean up the Red as much as possible. The same thing is true in the other end of the city. I mean the St.

Germain-Headingley issue was about the delivery of water to a large extent. They want quality

June 26, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2679 water delivered into their communities, but on the strict question of water quality in the Red, we are still in the ongoing process with the city. I mean, we are talking several, several millions of dollars to get the city's act cleaned up so you are not getting the problems that you see coming by your door. Disinfection was recommended by the Clean Environment Commission, and we have in fact proposed that the city include disinfection in the development of its water treatment facilities over the next five years.

We have asked for an overall sewage treatment plan and we have included the dollars. I guess the ball is sort of in the city's court at this juncture. Now the criticism is always-and I will acknowledge-that you can always go faster and get more done but you do have to have the dollars available to do it. We are not going to put people in Selkirk at risk. That is not going to happen. You need quality water. Drawing it out of the Red is tougher to treat and deliver.

I think what you will see to solve the problem is over the long term-not just even the changing of one plant in Winnipeg will answer your problem because it is that storm sewer overflow that is going to get you every time. You can have all your treatment plants right up to snuff, and you are still going to have a number of days when that storm sewer overflow is going to make the water quality in front of Selkirk less than desirable. I would invite the member to think in the bigger picture about what we are talking about in capital region, and water is part of it.

The city has a plan where they can go to another lake. They can go to Lake Natalie if they need to, I believe it is called. They can also go to the Sandilands out here for additional well water to supplement Shoal Lake water. Those pipelines can flow two ways. The member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) has talked many times about the possibility of having a pipeline south from the city and it could be a two-way situation.

Aquifer water could be accessed and come back to the city occasionally from that area if a system were in place and if our planners, municipally and provincially, could get together to look at the bigger plan on some of these issues. We would all gain, but they are massive infrastructure dollars. We can build on the infra structure that is out there, but if you will allow me one moment to be philosophical, I think the problem is going to have to get worse in terms of supply before you are going to get all of the different authorities to really turn their minds to co-operating on dealing with this issue.

Now that we have plenty of water in our rivers again, people are probably not as concerned as they were two years ago. Two years ago, they did not think we could take any water out of the Assiniboine to send down to the Carman, Winkler area This year, everybody was probably hoping they could send a whole bunch down there. It is a reflection of the ebb and flow of prairie rivers partly. *

(2250) Mr. Dewar: I thank the minister for the answer. There are two issues of course. One is the long-term cleanup of the Red and, of course, I realize that it is. The other is the short-term problem we have and that is to find a new source of drinking water, and that is an interesting recommendation or suggestion. What they are currently doing in Selkirk is they are upgrading the water supply by phase one and Phase 2. Phase 1 is the construction of a multimillion litre storage container, underground storage container.

Phase 2 of that project was to-and this is simple terms dig a well to fill stage one, but the problem is that the federal government has now decided they are no longer committed to Phase 2, so what we are going to have in Selkirk is a huge storage facility with no capability of putting water-that is at the moment. I raised this with the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) the other day, and they claim they are working on that and I wish them well. You mentioned the disinfection ofthe sewage. What would that cost? Mr.

Cummings: We are guesstimating, but if memories tell us correctly, $13 million per plant and take $13 million times three-does that sound right-plus the associated operating dollars which could be a half a million a year-pardon me, $2.5 million, not a half. I

2680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 19 95 missed the $2 million. So it is an expensive proposition. Mr. Dewar: Whose responsibility is it to cover those costs? Is it the province or is it the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Cummings: It is pretty much the city. The water development and infrastructure programs, very often the province assists in the early stages of development with the communities and then shift as the tax base grows but, at the same time, the city switched to a block funding program a few years ago at their own request, as I recall. I think it probably occurred under the Pawley administration.

So their capital dollars are blended in with the approximately $10 0 million they get every year transferred from the province. Mr. Dewar: Do you know if the City of Winnipeg made an application to deal with this issue under the infrastructure projects? Mr. Cummings: We would not necessarily know, but no one in this group has heard of it. Mr. Dewar: I think you are absolutely right, because I do not think they have. I guess it is unfortunate, but it is not a big priority for the City of Winnipeg at the moment.

One of the recommendations of the Clean Environment Commission was to have a warning device to detect high levels of fecal colif orm. Has the government moved at all in establishing this warning system? Mr. Cummings: Whether it will be the City of Winnipeg or otherwise, if the fecal coliform count gets high in a given body of water, we would post it. We have meetings going on this week with the City of Winnipeg about implementing something around that recommendation. If you are asking, did we post any last year, I do not think so.

The recommendations of the CEC were more specific about a more aggressive communications program. That has not been implemented. Mr. Dewar: Again from the report, it says in the summer of '93, record rainfalls resulted in frequent overflows of the sewage system here in the city of Winnipeg, which allowed, unfortunately, raw sewage once again to enter the Red River. That was in '93. This year, as we know, the levels were high again. Has the department detected higher levels this year than last year or the year before because ofthe high level of rains? Mr.

Cummings: I almost hate to give you this answer, but first of all, we have been drier than normal in terms of local rainfall, statistically, plus you have high volumes of water going down the river, so probably the answer would be negative in terms of increased counts. It does not mean that the potential is not still there. Mr. Dewar: Well, as long as the result is negative, I do not mind being corrected, but how often is testing done in Selkirk for fecal coliform? Mr. Cummings: You will have to wait a minute. The question was how often do we monitor. It is much the same as Shoal Lake water.

We have a regular monitoring schedule, and then that can be modified if conditions would appear to warrant it, so there is some. You could argue that there could be a more rigorous testing program, but we know that the problem is there. I imagine your question is based on protection of the Selkirk community, and that is more based on the management of the treatment system at Selkirk to make sure that the water is adequately handled. I would like to correct something I put on the record a few minutes ago. The cost of the treatment of the city's three plants would not be 36 or whatever it was I said.

It would probably be $20 million and rising to put the three plants up to full capability for disinfection, plus the $2.5 million operating once they were in place. I think I gave you a figure that was something like $42 million or something. It is not that high. Mr. Dewar: If you would not mind responding to that then, if the City of Winnipeg was to spend that money,

June 26, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 268 1 what impact would that have on the level of pollution in the Red River? *

(2300) Mr. Cummings: Some days not very much. That is the argument. I can give you something more precise but the fact is that will not do away with the overload problem they have on the storm sewer system. That is a mechanical problem that has to be fixed. Any time we do not have that overload problem then the river would be in good shape. Look we know, as well-1 am sure everybody at Selkirk probably knows-we are getting better quality water from the States than what we are delivering to you. That is acknowledged. Part of it is agricultural, too. Believe it or not the agricultural-well, let me rephrase that.

It sounds like I am sceptical. The fact is that the agricultural practices are improving, and I am told, and ask staff to correct me if I have the wrong understanding here, but the agricultural practices recently are improving to the point where they are not degrading the Red River the way they did a decade ago. So even in Manitoba, we are not having the impact that we did have but the city still has a major impact. Mr. Dewar: The good thing is, of course; we do not rely upon the Red River as our source. It was just used as an emergency source a couple of years ago and now, unfortunately, this year.

I just want to ask the minister, is the mm1ster completely convinced that the water, once it is treated, is safe for human consumption? Mr. Cummings: Yes, I have no reason to believe otherwise. The department has given me one other piece of information here that I did not give you before and that is, you asked me if all the plants were up to snuff would that solve the problem. To put that in perspective, you could then safely swim in the river but, on average, there would be 30 days when you still should not. So, on average, you get 30 days.

No matter how complete the treatment system is at the plants, you still get 30 days when the city is overloading and discharging through its rain sewer system instead of into its treatment plants. Is that correct? Yes. Mr. Dewar: I still just urge the minister to continue to work on this on behalf of the constituents, not only of Selkirk, but all those who live downstream of the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Cummings: Could I just add to that, that we have probably done more in the last number of years to get on with this problem than has occurred in the previous number of years.

The debate is essentially closed about whether or not the city should put in disinfection. The water quality objectives and the report of the Clean Environment Commission would indicate that they should. It is a matter of how soon it gets done. Mr. Dewar: What influence can you have as the Minister ofEnvironment to force the City of Winnipeg to take some action? Mr. Cummings : We licence their plants. Mr. Dewar: Which means? Mr.

Cummings: I guess we could order them to do it tomorrow but that would be a bit of a violation of where we have tried to bring this along in an incremental way in terms of impact on the city's ratepayers and at the same time trying to protect the downstream users. When we had the Clean Environment Commission hearings, the commission did not come out and recommend an overnight change. They acknowledged that this was a big enough problem, that the city had an infrastructure problem that has been built up over 80 years or maybe a hundred years, that it will not be undone easily.

The city's argument, of course, is that even, as I said, with disinfection the 30 days mitigate against the good that would be done but, in the long run, we have to aim towards the best quality water in the rivers. So the Clean Environment Commission recommendations, we will continue to pursue them. If you are asking me will I order or am I likely to order or is this government likely to order tomorrow

2682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 the city or anytime in the next short while, the city to within six months or six years have their disinfection in place, you are looking at an incremental upgrade of each of the plants. The west end plant just had $22 million spent on it last year. There are other costs they have associated with their upgrades so we are trying to get them to integrate this improvement as they upgrade their plants. It is probably not as fast as the people in Selkirk would like, but it will get there. Mr. Dewar: Well, I do agree with the minister there.

Following up on the Red River and other contaminants that are found in it, on pages 72 and 73 there is a number of graphs. One would indicate the level of salt, phosphorus and nitrogen. They all, unfortunately, seem to be taking a bit of an upward trend as the Red hits Selkirk. The dissolved oxygen fluctuates. Can you explain why there seems to be such an increase in those levels? I guess we could begin with the salts. Mr. Cummings: Well, '91 would be dry, would it not? Mr. Dewar: Well, it is not only in the Red. Mr.

Cummings: This probably is not going to give the member much comfort, but I suppose, it is pointed out to me that the reality is that you are the closest community to the mouth of the river so you have got all of the total accumulative impacts of what may have impacted on the river from start to finish. I am looking at the phosphorous as one. That would seem to follow that trend. I do not know why '92 should be higher in that case. Nitrate levels are higher in '89. Mr. Dewar: It is not only in the Red though.

Obviously, it fluctuates for different reasons, but there just seems to be a disturbing trend over the last number of years from '85 upwards, and again '85, that there seems to be an increase in these chemicals. Mr. Cummings: Well, I am not sure if this is relevant, but I know that '89 was a dry year. An awful lot of particles carry, which probably had adhered to them a number of combinations of materials off of agricultural land. They were blowing and then they ended up, in some cases, they blew into drainage which in turn ended up, I am sure, washing into the system.

I am told that can be quite a source of pollutants getting into the water system where there is erosion that contributes to it, but I really cannot, on short notice, unless somebody in the department can help me out, answer your question in those areas. The conclusion is, however, that there really is not a verifiable trend over the years and that may be the best sign. In fact, I would think it is the best sign. In '85, nitrate levels, for example, there was a dramatic drop. There was also a drop in phosphorous in '85, and 19 80 was not that far below '89, which was the high. It went down.

Have I still got the floor, Mr

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-25b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 25b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1e302065bcd80c7093c30afe767e93c34890df56

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