VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 9, 1980 NO. 39

May 9, 19 80 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Si.lllms) : Tape No. 1404 NM - 1 Order, please! I am sure hon. members wolll.d like to join me in welcoming to the galleries today the Provincial Presi.d$t of the Royal Canadian Legion, Mr. Gordon Collins, and representatives of legion branches from Botwood, Pouch Cove, Portugal Cove, Bell Island, Ferryland; Kelligrews·, Holyrood, Brigus, Bay Roberts, Spaniard's Bay, Carbonear, Whitbourne, Mount Pearl, Pleasantville and St. John's. Also representatives from the Royal Naval Association, the 59th. Regimental Association, the !66th.

Regimental Association, and the Korean Veterans Association; SOME HON. MEMBERS : Bear, hear! MR •. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome to ~ galle:r;ies on behalf of hon. members ,Mayor Gerald Hynes and Councillor Morris Kennedy, of Manue:l's Cove- Gillard's Cove- Bluff Head Cove CouncilJ in the district of Twillingate. SOME HON. ME..'o!BERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MlNISTEFS : MR. SPEA!<ER : The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a state111ent with respect to the development of an aviation system for Newfoundland.

This !las come in for some discussion in recent days and weeks. It conce= -s the planning, and it is just in that stage now, the planning of' possibly closing out one of tile airports on the West Coast, either Stephenvill .e or Deer Lake 1and I would wish to make this statement. The Civil Aviation Planning Division of the Atlantic Regional Office of Transport Canada ~ommertced the development of an aviation area master plan for the Island of Newfoundland in 1976.

The objective of the plan was to provide guidelines for the development of the aviation system in Newfoundand over the next fifteen to twenty years. 368S

)'tay 9, 1980 1'a?e No. 1404 tiM - 2 ~lR. BRETT: In the intial stages of the planning process, of!icials of my deparcment provided the Transporc Canada planning group with demographic and other relevant scatistics for particular locations acros s the Province. The department also provided additional data 1:0 l<eep the material current O!l an as requested basis. As ?art of the overall development plan 1 an analysis of the fucure roles of Deer Lake and Stephenville airporcs •·•as undertaken.

In the SUmmer of 1979,Transport canada: advised the depart:ment that they would like 1:0 meet ·..tieh us to ensure •.;e are kept current in regard to the latest planning development and are in agreement: with the findings of the study or otherwise. They stated they are willing to provide a briefing on the scudy and /or to invite representatives from the Depart:me .nt to participate in publ ic :neetings t.'"Ult Transport Canada •.,rould be organizing in t.'lte very near future.

We responded in August 1979, saying '"'e would appreciaee receivt.ng a comprehensive br iefing at Transporc Canada • s convenience , :Out we were reluctant 3617

May 9,1980 Tape No. 1405 AH-1 MR.BRETT: to participate in the planned public meetings because the main objective of the meetings was to engage in discussions with interested parties in the various regions ' of the Province to get their input into the development planned 1and the provincial presence could have the effect of inhibiting open and frank discussions,recognizing that aviation is exclusively under federal control. The consultive process was deferred because the Atlantic Region Air Administrator of Transport Canada was awaiting his minister's approval to commence this phase of the programme.

That approval has now been received and Transport Canada are planning to meet with interested groups during the last week of May. Officials of my department met with Transport canada people yesterday and were given a briefing which consisted of reviewing the work done to date on assessing possible alternate future roles for Stephenville/Deer Lake and St. Anthony airports in the Western portion of the Island. I might say,although it is not written in the statement, Mr. Speaker, that we are adamant in our stand that both the Stephenville and the Deer Lake airports must continue to operate. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, in response to the minister's statement I find very little in it to comment on. I certainly would not want to see a division between two communities, Stephe nville and Deer Lake,and I would like to suggest that they would most =ertainly make a joint approach to federal authorities on this matter themselves instead of setting up a division between twe communities that presently are eighty miles separated.

People in Stephenville have to drive to Deer Lake to get a way out by air, or from Deer Lake to Stephenville in order to be able to fly to the Mainland. And to me it is very '~nfair for the federal or any other authority to think in terms of phasing out either of these airports. We have already been phased down in other areas,like rail ~F18R l.ol- ·-

:·lay 9,1980 Tape No. 1405 AH-2 MR. BENNETT: services. We have not got the best Trans-canada in Canada, the TOJ. We have not got the best transportation methods to be used by our people and I think it is =iminal to think: in terms of closing out either one of these airports. SOME ~ON.MEMBERS: M!LSl?EAKE& (Simms): MR. MORGAN: Bear, hear .! The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave this m.crning of the House of Assembly's time for maybe twenty minutes or longer to give the full details of the Fisheri.es Loan Board. MR. NEARY: A point or ·order, Mr • Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ A point oi order. Th e hon. member for LaPoile. ~!R. . NEARY: ~tr . Speaker, my understandin<; is that th .e hen. gent.leman has a t:hir t.een page so- called ~ti.nist .erial Statement: that he is go ·inq :o make to the Bouse. 'tour 5o nour knows t.hat: this mat.ter has been ra ised on ii\Ore than one occasion and I do not thin k up to date that. 'tour Honour has giv en a ruling on whether or not ministers are abusL,g the time of · r..!1e House, abusing their grivileges by making techllica .l and political statements. Hy understanding, Mr.

S?eaker, of a :-tinis t:er ial Statement is t.h at t!'le mat:ter has to be urgent:, there has to be an emergency, it: has to be brief , concise and t.o the po~nt. fu,d here we have a minister · .. :i.th a thirteen page ~!ini sterial Statement and he will probably depart from it and add another lit.cle bit so you are talking about a statement that is t;;oinq t.o go almo st: three quarters of an hour 358'1

May 9, 1980 Tape 1406 EC - l MR. S. NEARY: at a time, Mr. Speaker, when people of this Province were told there was going to be a flag debate in this House. So apart from the fact that it may be out of order, it is discourteous to the Royal Canadian Legion who have brought so many members to the public ~alleries today, and I would submit now, Mr. Speaker, that it is time we had a ruling whether or .not long­ winded, technical, political Ministerial Statements are in order - MR. L. THOMS: And are debatable. MR. S.

NEARY: - and are debatable; and then it will take another fifteen or twenty minutes for somebody on this side to respond, so you are wasting an hour of the House when in fact, Mr. Speaker, the sta~ement could be laid on the table of the House. The information would be given to the members, we would get the information, the press would get the information, A technical sta~ement of that nature, in my opinion, does not warrant the time of a Ministerial Statement and should be laid on the table of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORO: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order. To the poin~ of order, the hon. tl1e To that point of order, I do not think there is anything in the Standing Orders or in any of the rules of the House saying ~ow long a Ministerial Statemen~ should be. This particular Ministerial Statement is one that the Opposition have been asking questions on over the last several weeks and months. 20,000 or more fishermen of this Province - SOME HON. ME..'IBERS : Hear, hear!

It happens to concern PREMIER PECKFORD : - and I think I speak for every member of the Canadian Legion in the galleries today when I say that they are just as in~erested in the fishery of this Province as this government is, and I think they would be only too glad to hear what this government intends to do for many aspects of Newfoundland society, not just what the member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) is interested in. 36Sn

May 9, 1980 SOME !iON. MEMBERS : MR. E. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) . : Tape 1406 EC - 2 !lear, hear! Mr. Speaker, to ~~e point of order. To the point of order, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, MR. E. ROBERTS : If I might, Mr. Speaker, and !' will not attempt the kind of cheap shot the Premier just attempted - SOME !:ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. E, ROBERTS : - I would like to refer Your !ionour to

Section 262 - our standing Orders, by the way, are silent on this matter, I would suggest.

Section 262 of Beauchesne in its entirety reads: "Statements by Ministers have now been given a recognized place in Routine Proceedings. The Standing Order is specific but considerable latitude has been left to the Speaker to set limits on the participants. The Speaker has emphasized that both the Government and Opposition contributions should be brief and factual." SOME" RON. ~' MR. E. ROBERTS: !lear, hear! "The purpose of the ministerial statement is to convey information, not to encourage debate." MR. S. NEARY: Right on! MR. E. ROBERTS : Now, Mr.

Speaker, the issue is not the one the Premier has attempted to make with a cheap,low·class kind of debate. Sir, we would be quite prepared to debate the fisheries in this House at any time. If the government wished to debate the fisheries this day, I am sure the gentlemen from the Legion would be as willing as the government are and as we are to debate it. MR. S. NEARY : Right. MR. E. ROBERTS: But let the government not attempt to do it in the form that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Morgan) comes in to make a twenty minute speech to which there is no right of response except a very limited one and no debate allowed under the rules of the House. If ~~e government are genuinely concerned, I say to the Premier, if he and his colleagues are genuinely concerned with the fishe .ry as opposed to cheap second-rate oolitics, then let him set the matter down for debate and 3691

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1407 so - 1 MR. E. ROBERt'S : we will debate it in this House this day and as long and as often as the government wants, Sir, but Ministerial statements, I submit, are not the way to do it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Sillllls): Order, please! I will hear a final submission fran the hon. the Premier to the point of order. PREMIER PEc::FORD : Mr. Speaker, just let me say that this hon. House of Assembly has been open all Spring, the Oppasition have had ample opportunity to debate not only the fisheries but every other public posture that this government has taken.

We have the budget debate coming up, the member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) has already spoken in the budget debate. He was the person who was designated by the Opposition to be the major person to speak on the Budget Speech in which there was a lot of the fisheries policy contained therein. There is to be a White Paper on the fishery and so on. So as the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. Roberts) should know we are open always to debate not only the fishery but whatever - MR. S. NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: might want to debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN: MR.

SPEAKER: Your Honour, that is utterlv ridiculous. Order, please! - other issue that the Opposition Oh, oh. Order, please! To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! I believe I have heard enough with respect to the point of order to enable me to make a ruling. First of all ,I might point out that we have used about eight minutes already in discussing a point of order . whether or rtot we have too much time allotted for Ministerial Statements.

In view of the fact that our Standing Orders are silent,aeauchesne clearly says that considerable latitude has been left to the Speaker to set limits on the participants. I will quo~e only what we use as precedents in this House with respect to Ministerial Statements: They are for the purpose of conveying 3692

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1407 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): information and the member responding is entitled to ask explanations, make a few remazlts,but no debate is then allo-d. It is ~so the practice of this hen. House that the member . raspondinq to Ministerial Statements may use approximately half the time used by the min:i.ster in presenting his statement. we also have many precedents in this Bouse where Ministerial Statements have been lengthy, short, brief and whatever and there has been ccnsiderable latitude. lind I think in view of the importance of the statement, I will allow the hon.

Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) to make his statement. MR. J. MOR:i»J: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Yes, Mr. Speaker, . and I want to say before I COIIIDence my statement , I bad the courtesy to give the Opposition members copies of the statement two days ago. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. J. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, over the past number of months there has been some controversy and questions that need answering regarding the operations of the Fisheries Loan Board in the Province here.

And the government appointed a connittee to do a thorough review of the Fisheries Loan Board and,as you know,in the House of Assembly the appointment was made recently of Mr. Fred Pike, a new Chai:rman and a new Comptroller, Mr. Sydney Blandon. Now that the report has been completed, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce today in the House of Assembly here that the review and re-evaluation of the Loan Board has been completed and the report has been made and now major changes are being put in place to the Fisheries Loan Board to make the Board more efficient and more responsive to the needs of our fishery.

Today I wish to outline to the House,and I am sure all member who represent fishermen around the Province will be interested in knowing this information, the new operations, the day to day operations of the Board and new regulations and policies under which the Board will operate. One of the major ~~anges in the operations of the Fisheries Loan Board, Mr. Speaker, would involve the granting of loans by chartered banks to fishermen for the acquisition of fishing vessels and 3693

---- -· - --- ~tay 9, 1980 Tape No. 1408 DW - 1 ~IR. J. :OIORGAN: equipment. During the past few months we have been negotiating with the chartered banks re­ garding their involvemen~ in providing financi~~ •ssis~ce to fishermenf .;md I am pleased to announce that these negotia- tions have been brought to a successful conclusion. So ·under the Fisheries Loan Board now the new proqramme, ·the Bank Loan Guarantee Proqramme, will take effect throughout all the chartered banks in the Province on June 1st. of this year.

And fishermen requiring a loan in access of $50,000 and for not more than $1 million will be able to directly deal with the banks in their own respective areas of the Province and other requests for loans up $SO,OOO,from $1,000 to $50,000. will be dealt with through the Fisheries Loan Board as in the past. ~r.

Speaker, the qovernment will guarantee these loans made b y the banks to the fisher- "!!ena I want to ?Oint out and make absolutely clear and clearlv understood to all fishermen that the fishermen who will be arranging their financing through the chartered banks will not be paying more for their loans. although they are dealing with the banks; that those who deal with the banks in the future will have the interest rate difference between what the banks will be charging the fishermen and what the Fisheries Loan Board is now charging, the 8 per cent, that it will be sub­ sidized by the Newfoundland Government through the Fisheries Loan Board.

So there will be no extra cost to the fishermen. The interest on these loans, of course, will be paid directly to the banks by the fishermen and upon verification of payment to the banks that the interest has been paid they will then be re~mbursed by the Fisheries Loan Board. by the Newfoundland Government. 3694

!lay 9 . 198 0 Tape No . 1408 DW - 2 1·1R. J . !1 0 RG AN : The fishermen in the future will be ;required to pay and make a downpayment of 10 per cent on all ve .sse ls. There · are some c:hange ·s f:!"om there in the past; there was 10 per· cent .down ~yaent for new vessels and 15 per cent fo ·r used •ressels. N.ow it is 10 per cent downpayment for all vessels and 15 per cent for all their loans involving all their equip­ ment. And, Mr. Speaker, the financing through the banks will also encompass loans to fishermen who want to build their own boats, and that is important as well.

Our way of life in Newfoundland is that many of the fishermen can and do build their own fishing vessels and.therefore,the loans will cover that kind of a programme whe;reby .f·isher!'l'.en can build what you call back yard construction, carry out back yard construction, do their own boat building. The maximum term of loans, Mr. Speaker, will be for twenty years for steel vessels, fifteen years in the case of fibre­ glass - ~e wili be subsidizing by means of loans and bounties the fibreglass vessels i·n the future-and ten ye .ars for wooden vessels. 369 5

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1409 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: ----- The most important thing, Mr. Speaker, now,and to clarify any misunderstandings in the future, to make sure there are no misunc;i.erstandings in the future, the government has now sat down and clearly defined what we would call the eligibility criteria, whereby every single fisherman around the Province will know and clearly understand who can qualify and get government assistance for loans and grants, or bounties as they are called.

Now these criteria are newly established criteria, established by means of consult~tion with the fishermen around the Province ~~rough the Fishermen's Union, representing the fishermen. And the criteria are in fact I think very important for all members who have fishermen as constituents to understand. So, Mr. Speaker, I want to table this and outline what the new criteria will be. The new loans will be made only to fishermen and fishermen's groups, not to companies any more in the future, strictly to fishermen and fishermen's organizations and groups.

And the re~irements or the eligibility criteria are as follows: ~~e fishermen must be of legal age. They must have had fishing experience as a full~ time fisherman during the last two years as either an apprentice, a crew- man, an owner/operator, a co-owner/operator for the fishing season in his respective region for the past two years.

He must have obtained at least seventy-five per cent of his income from the harvesting sector of the fishery in each of the past two fishing seasons in his respective region- not seventy-five per cent of his income for the past two years, but during the fishing season in his respective region of the Province. That will clearly define who will qualify.

Of course,he will also satisfy he has the experience to operate a vessel as a fisherman, and can also demonstrate to the Fisheries Loan Board and to the banks that he has the necessary licences from the Federal Department of Fisheries which is now responsible for the licencing of fishing vessels, tha~ he has the necessary licences to operate and carry out the prosecution of the fishery. And a very important one as well 1that in 3696

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1409 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: the future there will be no loans made to fishermen who are in substantial arrears with the Loan Board. That is a new regulation. So any fisherman who is in substantial arrears with the Loan Board will know automatically now he cannot qualify for a new loan until his old loan is up to date with the Board, or with the banks in this case. Mr.

Speaker, the details of these guidelines and criteria will be mailed out to all fishermen, and that is going to be important,I think,for all fishermen to fully understand, because sometimes this kind of a statement, lengthy as it is, cannot be fully covered and carried through the media. So it is important that the fishermen understand what we are saying as a government, and as a Department of Fisheries, so we intend over the next two or three week period, we are now in L~e process of publishing a brochure clearly outlining and defining the criteria and the guidelines of this new prograJilll\e .

And that will be mailed out to all fishermen throughout the Province, indicating the major changes now being made, and there are some major changes and I want to indicate what these major changes are. The changes,for example 1 are that only fishermen will get loans in the future, not companies. The downpayment rates have been changed to ten per cent for all vessels,

whereas before it was different in new and used. The interest rate has been changed from six per cent to eight per cent, which of course was announced in our most recent budget for the government here. There has been a lower limit and an upper limit on loans, $1,000 to $50,000 through the Fisheries Loan Board, and from $50,000 to $1 million through the banks. Loans for new vessels can only be made for boats that are constructed within the Province. And that is an important point as well. However, we will consider - the Board will consider and the banks will consider loans for the purchase of used vessels from outside the Province. 3697

May 9, 1980 Tape 1410 EC- 1 MR. J. MORGAN: And we are also , Mr. Speaker, outlining in our brochure the new requirements for what we call, as I mentioned. earlier, backyard construction which will enable a fisherman to construct his own vessel and get the necessary assistance required to do so. '!here is also, Mr. Speaker, in the new regulations, a penalty for a person who sells a vessel or equipment outside the Province or outside the fishing industry.

In other words, we want to make sure that the vessels that we help to finance either by loans or grants through the taxpayers ' dollars , we want to make sure that these vessels stay in the fishing industry. So there will be a penalty in the future to any fisherman who takes a vessel and sells it outside the industry or outside the Province and makes a capital gain. This was not previously covered in the old regulations. Also, there will be a regulation which s~tes that a fisherman who sells his boat and obtains a capital gain, tha>; the capital gain must be applied to his new loan before a new loan is issued.

These are the kinds of regulations, I think, Mr. Speaker, that are important for the fishe.rmen to be fully familiar with. Also, Mr. Speaker, we have ~~~ade changes to the Bounties Act. We call them bounties·.· '!hey are really outright grants to fishermen. And these grants in the future will be made only to the fisherman who obtains a permit from the Fisheries Loan Board or the Department of Fisheries to start construction of his boat. They will not be paid to fishermen who start construction witl1out a permit to do so. '!here will be no bounties paid.

And that will give us good guidance in having some control as to how many vessels are being built and who is building them and why so that we will know first-hand as we issue the permit to build and then the bounty comes after. Mr. Speaker, tlle same qualifications for the bounties, of course, as I mentioned earlier - I will not go over them again the second time - apply to the loans as well as to the bounties, t....,e criteria. 3698

May 9, 1980 Tape l4l0 EC- 2 MR. J. MORGAN : 'lhe bounties , Mr. Speaker, will be $45 per foot for 25 - up 25 foot vehicl.es - I am sorry - up more than 25 foot vessels -· up to 35 feet and these guidelines without listing them off for the record of the House, are in this attached docuanent and will be tabled here in the House givinq the details of the bounty ~e. A further ctlange , Mr. Speaker, is that in the future we will be providinq bounties for vessels not only constructed of wood, but we intend to supply bounties for vessels constructed of steel and fibreql.ass and aliDIIinum.

We find that fishermen are more and more demanding boats constructed of steel in J11iU1Y cases now, the most recent years, and moreBO in the fibreglass field. So we now intend to have the requlations reqardinq qra.nts for these vessels apply to that type of material used for construction of fishing vessels. The one importa,nt ehanqe, I think it is important to fisbeJ:mell I tall to in my travels and also in the views of the Fishermen's Union, is that we are now qoinq to be applyinq a bounty or a qrant to fishermen who want to repair their vessels.

I found in my travels that because fishermen could not get assistance to repair their lonqliners , that they ended up applyinq for a loan to get a new one. They really did not want to get a new one, but they had 3699

~I • • li • • • • •• • • • -..... - /L May 9,1980 Tape No. 1411 AH-1 MR. MORGAN: no assistance to enable them to repair their old vessels, so now the regulation will be that any vessels more than eight years o~d will qualify for a provincial bounty, a bounty to enable the fishermen to carry out the repairs or rebuilding, if you want, of their old boats. The new programme, Mr. Speaker, will be qalled the Provincial Fishing Vessels Assistance Plan.

As I m~ntioned earlie~ administered by two sources, the Fisheries LOan Board on one hand, up to $50,000 and on the other ~d more than S5o.oruL ~ _;.,. ~million, all • • • ..... • .... • _ ...... ,.....,"" :.hat fishermen .rd and rightly .s inspected We have now e vessels under carried out e, more so t smaller cs around :ives in their the Fisheries ·se to train ·arry out the very near himself . have the .1ld call order Lster wishes 'ormation of lar . there ·"ill co overcome II\

May 9,1980 Tape No. 1411 AH-2 MR. ~!ORGAN: that long process of having vessels inspected. The number of inspectors now are eight in the Loan Board and we are recruiting additional inspectors to make a total of twelve.

The new operational procedures in dealing with loan applications, there are changes being made there to streamline the operations of the Loan Board so with the eligibility criteria naw being clearly spelled out, the loan .s officers will he able to screen out the applications, deal with them to a point where it will remove the need for the Loan Board directors themselves in dealing with the application to have to spend too much time in getting additional information.

The criteria will clearly enable the loans office ·rs to determine who can qualify and whether or not the applicants in the applications made that qualify to go before the board to be voted on to obtain assistance. Mr. Speaker, it has been recognized by, I think,all parties in the House here that there has been a communications pr:11blem 1 it has been recognized by me as the minister, a severe · communications problem in the past between the fishermen and the Fisheries Loan Board. To overcome this problem 1a new position has been created 3701

:1ay 9, 1980 Tape No. 1412 DW - 1 HR. J. MORGAN: within the Loan Board,that of Inquiries ~fficer. This position has been temporarily filled now by ~r. Len Edwards and fishermen can contact him by the telephone number that is listed in this document today and will be listed in the brochure which will be sent out over the next two or three week period to all fishermen. And this gentleman will be responsible for dealing with all inquiries from fishermen and will improve the liaison in communications between the fishermen and the Fisheries Loan Board. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have had considerable questions in the House over the past number of months regarding the make-up of a new Fisheries Loan Board. Who will be the new Fisheries Loan Board? Will there be fishermen on the Loan Board? Will there !:le all civil servants? Mr. Speaker, today I want to put to rest any further questioning an that matter because I w~sh to announce that the following people have now been appointed by the Cabinet, by the Governor in Council. to be a new Fisheries Loan Board for the Province and they are as follows: ~r.

Fred Pike, as I announced earlier, the new chairman; ~r. ~ay Andrews is now the Assistant Deputy Minister of the department, he was with the Federal Department of Fisheries far as long as twenty years and he is now the new deputy chairman of the Fisheries Loan Board; Mr. Eric Wells 1 who is the Director of Internal Audit for the Department of Finance, he will serve on the Fisheries Loan Board repre- senting the Department of Finance; Mr. Charlie Parrott,who is the regional Director for the Federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans, ~r.

Parrott deals with all !:lounties and subsidies from the Federal Government, and we think it 370?

:-lay 9, 1980 Tape No. 1412 Dlq - 2 :-IR. J. MORGAN: is important for him to be on the Fisheries Loan Board dealing with applications for assistance. MR. S: NEARY: Sit down! Sit down! ~1R. J. :-!ORGAN: Mr. Speaker, again I ask to be heard in silence. I am being interrupted by the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) continuously. :-!~~~KER (Simms l: Order, please! The hon. minister has the ricrht to be heard in silence,as all members are aware. MR. S. NEARY: It is an abuse of the House. i·1R. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I have already ruled that it is not an abuse of the House and ! ask hon. members to give the minister silence. ~ - NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is my opinion. c1R. SPEAKER: Well, I would ask you to express your opinion qaietly. MR. J.

MORGAN: Mr.Speaker,ia oontinuinq without the inter - ruption of the lllelllber, who does not care for fishermen in his own district on the Southwest part of the Province, ve have agreed to.a~point fishermen to the Fisheries Loan Board ~nd we felt that it was imoortant to have reoresentation from the fishermen on the Loan Board dealincr with fisheries matters, in this case, assistance to fishermen. And we asked the Fish .

Food and Allied Workers' Union to make recommendations to us as to what fishermen should be appointed to the fisheries Loan Board .And I am pleased to accept ,and it h~s now been confizmed by Cabinet,the appointment of ~r. ~evin Condon, a fishermen from Calvert, Mr. Condon, by the way, is also the vice-oresident of the Fish, Food and Allied Worker's Union for t~e Province. Also ~r . Kevin Carroll: ~r. Carroll is a fishermen in Torbay,He is a staff member of the Newfoundland Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union as "'~11.

The Union is now in a process of Puttino for~!ard to us one further nomination and I am of t~~ oninion he will come from somewh~re in the ~ortheast coast of :he Province. 370:1

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1412 DW - 3 MR. J. MORGAN: And that recommendation will be put forward to Cabinet for approval for the appointment of a thi~d fisherman·to the Fisheries Loan Board. Mr. Speaker, in my elosinq part of the statement,the most important part of all, is the we have talked about the procedure, the new Loan Board, the new guidelines. Now the question is what kind of money do 3704

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1413 SD - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: we have to offer the fishermen this year. Well , Mr. Speaker, we have a total dollar value to this new Provincial Fishing Vessels Assistance Programme of $22 million. SalE BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. J. MORGAN: Now, Mr.

Speaker, that amount of money will be divided in the following way, and it is important for people who will be answering questions from fishermen in their own districts to have this infomation. $9.3 million will be provided through the chartered banks for loans, as I mentioned earlier, ranging from $50,000 ap to $1 million. $8 million will be provided through the Fisheries Loan Board directly in loans to fishermen from the Board ranging from $1,000 to $50,000.

There will be $3 million allocated for a new large vessel bounty progrl!llllllle where we want to see the fishermen move from the smaller boats to larger boats that can go further offshore, in midshore and offshore waters. There will be $1 million for new small vessel bounties. There are still people in certain parts of the Province who do not want to get into larger boats and they want to continue to use the trapskiff or the boat around the thirty-five foot range: $1 million for these smaller type ~ssels. There will be $200,000 for •~essel reconstruction and repair grants.

They are bounties, grants • for the pu:r:pose of repairing vessels that are already in the fishing fleet. And of course there will be $500,000 allocated toesubsidize the interest difference I mentioned earlier between what is going to be charged by the banks now and charged by the Fisheries Loan Board. In other words, the 8 per cent and whatever the bank rate will be when the loan is made to fishezmen. Mr. Speaker, these are the full details; I skipped over some of the minor details. They are all attached to this document here.

I have gone over all the major points and I want to stress again that these major points are important for all members who have fishermen in their districts to know 1 all the 3705

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1413 so - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: information so they can answer questions. And also I mentioned the fact that a brochure will be sent out in the next two or three weeks giving all of these details to all fishermen so fishermen will not be able to say in the future , "I know a certain politician 1 I can get a loan from the Board',' or ''I knew somebody else. I can get a loan from the Board." The Board will operate strickly within the guidelines set down by government. And the Board will not be allowed to go outside these guidelines or regulations set down by government.

I think that is of the upmost importance for the future operation of the Loan BoaM. So, Mr. Speaker, in closing I will say I am convinced that these changes , fairly major changes, to the operations whereby assistance will be made available to the fishermen, that these operations which will now be carried out in a businesslike manner by the Fisheries Loan BoaM will go a. long way to improving ehe situation with regares to making assistance available to fishermen fOr them to improve their vessels and their fishing equipment on their "Vessels. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the me~her for Trinity - Bay de Verde. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. F. P.OWE : Mr. Speaker, the present Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) is starting to take on some of the characteristics of Mr. Walter Carter and 1I would submit 1 possibly has the same future.

Sir, I think this is an extremely important statement and the minister could have presented it at any time in the last few weeks, -;in fact 1 I have had a copy of the statement from the minister for the past three days and I have prepared a long response and I have some twenty-five inquiries and questions as a result of the statement made by the Minister of Fisheries this morning. But, Sir, out of courtesy and deep respect for the members of the Canadian Legion and other distinguished ladies and gentlemen who have travelled long 3706 !

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1414 NM- 1 MR. F. ROWE: distances today to come to hear what was clearly to be a debate on the flag, I will refrain at this tilne from replying at length to the Ministerial Statement and will instead prepare a release listing off the enquiries and the questions and the responses that I have to this particular Ministerial Statement. And I will also, Mr. Speaker, endeavour to meet with the minister to .POint out what I consider to be some of the strengths and some of the weaknesses of his particular statement with respect to the Fisheries Loan Board. SOME RON. MEMBEBS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR.

SPEAKER: Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS :. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear '· Further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS: The hen. the member for the strait of Mr. Speaker, there is half an hour allocated under our rules for Question Period, but in view of the contemptible performance of the government, Sir, my colleagues and I are going to ask no questions at all this morning so that we can get on with the business which this House was scheduled to do today, namely ~~e debate on the flag, Sir. There will be no questions. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, he ·ar! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, that is fine with us. We are willing to move on into the flag debate. We would have liked -it is unfortunate that the members of the House on both sides could not have gotten together before today and agreed to dispense with all matters and go right directly into the debate under discussion, for the bill. I mean,that would have been perhaps t;he proper way to do it. And if we had to have notice, in the same way as the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) gave notice on his Ministerial Statement, if we had to have that kind of notice from the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts),of course we would have been willing to dispense with all 370

May '}, 1980 Tape No. 1414 NM- 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Orders of the Day. SOME HON. ~lBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Silmns) : Order, please~ I understand there is, then,an understanding MR. ROBE!!.S~ Mr. Speaker, I do not know under what rubric of orde ·r the Premier was speaking 1but may I be allowed to respond to it? MR. SPEAKER: Well.I would assume that he responded to your first comment which was a question. MR. ROBER'l'S: I was out of order when I spoke. If b.e was out of order when he spoke, I want to be equally out of order in saying the l(l'hole thing is ridiculous.

The government deliberately planned this ,I think, in my opinion, to shorten the amount for the debate today. That is what we are objecting to, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He9-r, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. ~~· A point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is obvious that the hon. gentleman was out of order in making those statements. It is obvious that the Leadership Covention is on and it is also obvious that the hon. gentlemen are determined to SOME HON. ~RS: Oh, oh! SOME ?.ON . MEI-lBE.~ : Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: ;rt is also equally sadly obvious that the hon. gentlemen are prepared to attempt to make a p0litical issue - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.SI?~ OrQ.er, please! MR. MARSHALL; - out of the flag debate - SOME HON. MEMBERS..:...__ Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! MR. AARSEALL _:__ -wh ich is a free vote. MR. SPEAKE !:_ To t:he point of order , I will he ar one final submis sion from the hon . ~ember for the Strait of Belle Isle. 3708

May 9, 1980 Tape ~o. 1414 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: To the point of order, Sir, I want to simply say the minister's comments are contemptible and I will not honour them in any way. I am not worried about the leadership. We will take that when it comes . SOME !iON.~'­ MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. ROBERTS : Hear, hear! (Inaudible) • Order, please ! My f:::-iend from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), who has won 1 I think,two out of eight elections is hardly one to speak. I want to simply say that - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) way ahead. MR. ROBERTS : - the contemptible comments of my learned friend from St.

John's East (Mr. Marshall) speak for themselves. They are not a point of order. I will not even dignify them by replying. MR. SPEAKER: I will have to rule in this particular matter that there is no point of order. But I do understand that the Question Period will not proceed. Therefore the next item of routine business is Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Health. HR. HOOSE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Human Tissue Act, 1971." MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hon.

Minister of Labour and Hanpower. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Worker's Compensation Act." SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 37 09

~y 9, 1980 Tape No. 1414 NM- 4 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. MARS"dALL: Order 40, Bill No. 44. MR. SPeAKER: Second reading of a bill entitled, "An Act To Adopt A Flag For the t>rovince." (Bill No. 44). The hon. Mi .!lister of Health. SOME HON. lfi:!mBRS: 3ear, hear: MR. HOUSE: Now, Mr. Speaker, firs~ of all I want to congratulate the Committee, the Committee of the House of Assembly, a select committee, and I wan ·t to do it sincerely in the selection of the flag and their going around the Province and ~heir meeting •.dth the people in the Province, 3710

May 9, 1980 Tape 1415 EC - 1 MR. W. HOUSE: hearing their opinions and then, of course, with the foresight of getting such a tremendous artistic Newfoundlander, Mr.· Pratt, to put form to that thought. And, of course, they did seek the expression of the people, whole categories of people, and in my estimation, the expression that the flag shows is a good one. So I want to compliment the Committee. And I might point out to the hon. House again that it is a Select Committee, it is not a committee of the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) .it is a Select CoDDnittee, a committee of four members from this side and three members from the other side. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. W. HOUSE: And, of course, I always agree with that kind of a committee in the House of Assembly, and I agree that when we have ~~at kind of a committee and come up with a resolution we should have a free vote on that kind of resolution, and that is what we are having. Now , Mr. Speaker, the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Rowel spoke yesterday. Of course, he complimented the Committee too and then proceeded to tear them apart. AN HON • MEMBER; MR. W.

HOUSE: Hear, hear! When you are talking about symbolism, there are a lot of things that you can generate. There is one point from the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. G. Warren) yesterday. I think the main point in his speech was the fact that the arrow was pointing backward, pointing the wrong way in ceremonial. Of course, in ceremonial, as I know it, when you are carrying a sword or something of that nature, the point is always behind, it is never going forward that way. The same thing with an arrow.

If you just study your artifacts and look back at the Indians who used the arrow, you will see that when they carried the arrow the point was behind and down, away from the person in motion. So I think with the flag being carried in ceremonial, that is the proper way for the arrow to be pointing. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have the honour and unexpected privilege of helping decide on a provincial flag and it is one 3 7 1 1

May 9, 1980 Tape 1415 EC - 2 MR. W. HOUSE: that has caused me a lot of soul searching, particularly in the fact that we have a free vote and I know that then a:z:e people . pro and con, there are people for and against this flaq. This -has called forth many emotions, some nostalgia about the past, but it has also called forth some hope and a little bit of joy from what I see. Now, Mr. Speaker, in issues of this nature we tend to become emotional and it is difficult to try to win an argument when emotions come into play.

And if one tended to argue from a rational viewpoint and a realistic sequence, you risk, of course, the outbursts of cliches and the outbursts of motherhood statements and sayings that could put you in a pretty bad situation. A couple of days ago in a Budget debate and, of course, also in this present debate, there were remarks made that to me were made deliberately to try to stir up emotions. Some of the remarks were, in Tiry estimation, in very poor taste, for instance, people using the term, 'trampling the Union Jack in the mud'. And I see the contingent from the veterans today, the Legion.

Another statement was used, 'slapping the veterans in the face.' Mr. Speaker, these were just gross insults. That is a gross insult. There is no.body trampling any flag and there is nobody slapping anybody in the face. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. EiOUSE: Mr. Speaker, these kinds of remarks distinguish a speech not for what it says but for the emotions and dirt it tries to bring up. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, this kind of emotion­ mongering, if I may use that term, has made this nation the hodgepodge of political opportunism it is. MR. S. NEARY : Who wrote that for you? MR. W.

HOUSE: That is why we have such a state in Canada today with regard to unity, that kind of political opportunism. MR. S. NEARY: MR. W. HOUSE: along very well. SOME HON. MEMBERS : The Nurse's Union will deal with you. The Nurse's Union and I are getting Hear, hear! 3 71 2

May 9,1980 Tape No. 1416 AH-1 MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, this debate began in the media the day after the Committee was announced. We knew that it was going to be contentious, we knew that there was one group, a large group,who wanted the Onion Jack, we knew there was another large group .who wanted the Pink,White and Green and .I gather from the Committee as they were going around that the larger group wanted something distinct and,of course,I stand with that group.

I want to point out, though,and I want to make this clear to anybody and I guess a lot of people will be surprised to see me standing today in this debate and talking in this way 1that there is no more traditionalist than I am, there is no more a loyalist than I am in this Province, there is no more a British traditionalist. As a matter of fact,the han. member across the way will know from my days at university that I was ~hat kind of a person, such a Monarchist that people tend to call me the jingoist - that is, my country and my emotions right or wrong. But where I am today, V~.

Speaker, I am representing a Brovince, I am representing a district and through my district a Province,_ and I have to act rationa1·1y and I have to let my emotions go,but·I want to point out to all people that I have a lot of respect and faith in our traditions and in our past. But we are living, Mr. Speaker, in a very different age than what we lived in when I was a boy, when I was ten years old. We are living in a system that is different, not different by vi~tue of anything we have done, nothirg ~Y our own volition and not by our desire,but by political and financial realities of the time.

There is no longer a British Empire. When I was a boy there was a British Empire. There is no longer a British Empire and that great nucleus of the Empire which was Great Britain have said to all the constituent parts of that Empire,"You are on your own,but we will come together in a eomrnonwealth and we will try to influence the world through that Commonwealth!' And we might point out, Mr. Speaker, that it is only through political persuasion and social relationship and our native backgrounds - we are not even tied to the British Empire economically.They are closer with the European Common ~arket.

So we are a Commonwealth and the Union Jack, a flag which I am very proud of,is the flag of Britain and that 3 7 1 3

May 9,1980 Tape No. 1416 AH-2 MR. HOUSE: Commonwealth and a Commonwealth which we aspire te having a great world impact. So I am a member of that Commonwealth, Mr. Speaker, Canada is a member of that Commonwealth and the Union Jack is my Commonwealth flag. It indicates that representation in the Commonwealth and I am going to cherish it all my life as the Commonwealth flag,but I do not think I have a right to .it particularly as a provincial flag. I could use an analogy and say I have a right to a ·part of my father's inheritance,but not all of it. Mr.

Speaker, there is nobody that has any more respect and gratitude for our veterans than I have. As a matter of fact,I am an honorary member of one of the Legion branches in the Province and it is because 1of course,of the work that we have done together that I want to point out to them that their ideals were represented by the flag but it was human ideals that they fought for and they won and that was symbolized 1of course,in the flag. The other thing I think should be pointed out, Mr.

Speaker, that,God forbid we would ever have to go to war, we hope we will never have to again, but if ever our young Canadians will ever have to go to war,they would never have to go, they would not be able to go to war , of course, under the Union Jack. They would be going to war under the Maple Leaf.

Now I want to lock at the flag and look at some of the things coming from - and, you know, I am not going to sa)-- I have said I have a lot of faith and love for the Union Jack,but I have looked at some of the conglomerations that people have been putting forward, various things from potatoes to codfish to what have you, 3 7 1 I.

:·lay 9. 1980 Tape No. 1417 ow - 1 MR. W . HOUSE: and, Mr. Speaker, a flag is not supposed to be a panorama of historical events, it is not sup- posed to be representative of the fauna and flora of a country. If I wanted that- you know, I have seen pictures that p~ople ha ve wanted as flags which looked more like a tossed salad than ..., it d±d a flag, plants and so on. Now,to get a little bit facetious about it, I wonder how the birch leaf feels when it sees the Maple Leaf as the sole representative of Canada.

And I said to somebody the other day, 'I wonder how the black spruce feels, you know, here is that sturdy, hardy tree that is going to be the future of our woods industry, how it feels when we get up with great gusto and sing, 'When sun rays Crown thy pine clad hills' . And here is the pine, it has just about left us. What I would like to point out is plants and animals caiu.ld go out of existance but symbolism cannot! -··--·· ·-. MR. L.

THOMS : (:tnaudiblel MR. •t~. aous=:: He does not underscand symbolism so I will not - The flag .that ~e have before us today deoicts che sea . it depicts the land mass, it depiccs human effort , it has design that brings forth symbolism from the ?ast , for us it shows the ar~ifaccs of ~he past. It do~s ha~e part r e 9resen~at i on of the Commonwealth ane the arrow, of course , which does siqnify the bri ght future. And ~ol d certainly is a symbol of ~ooe an d bria htness. It is very refreshin g, Xr.

Speaker . to look at that flaq anc I look at it proucl y. !t is pas:, it is p resen~ , it is future and 100 years time, ~ r . S?eaker , you will be able to look at tha t fla~ and i~ w~ll be past . ?resent and future. nnd I will tell you there is a lot of flaas in Cana da you cannot look ac and sae that no~ . 3715

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1417 DW - 2 MR. W.HOUSE: I have looked at some flags, Mr. Speaker, and the vision which was created in some of them was less than illuminating. If we read ~~~ inscription ~ it gives history a series of relati~n!!:_~~P..S..!; a wide open future, a geographic concept all in a design unencumbered ·-by material paraphernalia. MR. S. NE1\.RY: Now, now! MR. W. HOUSE: If I wanted ships and I wanted materials and t~ees I would go and get a book printed and call it the Newfoundland Book. Now, Mr. Speaker, just to recap what I have said.

I am saying we.;have now a Commonwealth flag, a flag that we love and cherish, ·that flag is the Union Jack. We bave a National flag, the Maple Leaf that we eherish and most of us will come to love. It takes a little time, you know, because the flag is not that old. We have our floral emblem, Mr. Speaker, and now we want our own flag. some time aqo I was out in my district and one person said to me in a little bft of a derogatory way, one of the derogatory remarks that I heard - )IR. ~I.N. ROliE: Of the many. MR. W. HOUSE: - that the proposed flag looked like a --------- road sign.

Now,I did not say anything at all.but I said by gosh that is good I am going to use that in the debate. What is more indicative, is more symbolic than arrows pointing, or a si~n pointing to a direction to the future? There is nothing wrong with that. But the thing about what people say across the House, 'What does a straight line or what does diagonal represent?' A lot of people recognize that the Union Jack is a beautifully designed flaa, the symmetry is good but its triangles, crosses, straight lines. And,·~r.

Speaker, a lot of people do not exactly know the total meaning, most do now because we have gone into it. 3716

:-lay 9 , 1980 Tape No. 1417 01~ . 3 :-!R . I~ . 20USB: Somebody said., 'What does the Stars and Stripes represent?' I. said,' To be frank about it ! have not studi e d it. I presume e a ch sta r repr e s e nts a State~ MR. T. LUSH: And unity. ~1R. w. aoo_sE: And unity, that is the State. :1R. T. LSS.l:!: The study of ve x i11ology ·, vexLl l ology i s what it is called. !-IR. W. :!OUSE:: And we have our triangles here. There is nothing di!ferent from having a triangle repre - sent a land mass than it is a star. So that i s representing the Provi n ce . Now, Mr.

Speaker, I just want to say one little thing furehe r . I would be de l ighted to go back in the classroom-and I think l:hey would have me back in the classroom teac~ing , I am s·u.re they would - and ! would be delighted to go back and be able to take t h at flaa and teac h a lesson b ecause you could teach a very in spirin g lesson from that flag, I. will tell yo u. '1~. s. NEARY : Sit down, boy. - _ .. ... :•1R . ·,; . F.OOSE: ~Tow, :oi ::- .

Speal<er, the hon. member a cros s the ·<~ay is just tryirg to interrupt . r am not going to stand up and be scre~ming for t h e rest of the y ear and trying t o make headlines . .I am not: runnin g Eor any leacer- shi p as ! kno w some ar~. I am trying to do my work ho~•stl y an d sincerely. I want to say, ~r . Speaker, o ne more ::.!line.! co not know how lon<;1 I have l>ut I •.orant to say one more t hi ne and that is a £ew ye ars aao I h ad the honour and 3717

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1418 so - l MR. W. HOUSE: privilege of introducing new mathematics to the Province. I believe I pil.oted it for two years as a pilot project. And I am going tC tell the episode for a couple of reasons . not because I was the best man to do it, I was, obviously. I was the best man for it but I am not saying it for that.But it was viciously attacked, attacked mainly by, of course, people who were comfortable with the present structure. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh , oh. MR. W. HOUSE: .lnd, of course, the other thing is we had to adjust to it. That is the first point I want to get across.

But the new approach was necessary because the old math could not emcompass the totality of the math and of course, we were getting into computers and we did not need people to be computers any more. Anyway the thinq that this educator came up with, not n-e, the educator who brought in this math, he said, "Look, there are a lot of things we can teach children at a very early age. • We were teaching mathematics, starting qeo~try at Grade IX.

He said, "You can do that at Grade I becnse a younqster sizes up his world in geometric forms and that is his first means of communication. • · And I never thought about that until I· started preparing for this flag debate that that is a good symbolism in itself, that youngsters themselves start sizing their world up in forms of squares, rectangle&, triangles, circles and arcs and so on. So I tell that for two reasons that particular one and the fact that a lot of people will attack a good thing anyway. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to carry this on any longer. I want to congratulate the Flag Committee.

I am going to vote for it, I want this flag. It is timel~ss, ageless, progressive, promising, pertinent and may it ever prevail. Thank you very JIIUCh. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! Before I recognize the next hon. member I would like to welcon-e to the galleries today on behalf of all hon. members fifty-seven students - Grade V, VI and Special Edcuation, from New World Island East Elementary School and their teachers , Mrs. Bernice Mahaney, Mr. Foland Hanlon and Mr. Rod WOolridge. SOME HON. ~MBERS : Hear, hear. 3 71 8

May 9, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. R. MOORES: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. R. MOORES: Tape No. 1418 The hon. member for camonear. Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. SD - 2 The- central theme of the government speakers for the past few days has been that all hon. members of this House when speaking on this subject of a new flag should be unemotional and quite rational. And there is a reason for that because the government realizes that they have a real hot potato an their hands in this topic.

For the first time since this new Peckford administration has come to power they are falling into the age old trap of going above the heads of the people and ignoring their true feelings on a very substantive and essential issue of importance to them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. R. MOORES: Emotionalism and rationality - when the previous speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. w. House), spoke on this topic he showed neither. He showed neither emotionalism,because he has been told not to, nor did he show rationality because this new design can not be rationally justified. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR.

T. LUSH: It defies rationality. MR. R. MOORES: If the government wants to talk ahcut rationality, I recall just a few weeks ago when we were on the discussion of offshore ownership, that the Chairman of this Flag Co111111ittee, the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. carter), when my colleague from the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. Feberts) was speaking,pointed at him and said, "Traitor". Now, that is rationality and that is emotionalism. MR. S. NEARY: irrational. MR. R.

MOORES : That is not eDJtionalism -that is And it was rationality too when this government imposed the new Municipalities Act that forever will be considered one of the worst pieces cf legislation in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : M.R. R. MOORES: of legislation - Hear, hear. And there are a . lot of other pieces 371g

May 9, 1980 Tape 1419 EC - l MR. R. MOORES : that we could approach that this government has submitted to this House as baing rational and unemotional. Well, Mr. Spealter; 'I want to be both this morning. I want to be both emotional. because this is an emotional topic - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES : and I want to be rational because in my condemnation of this new design, this atrocious, ridiculous design, one can very easily be rational. Now, this Committee that was appointed by this House to look into the idea of a new design for a new flag has done, in my opinion, a reasonably good job.

They have fulfilled their mandate and they agreed unanimously that they would submit to this House of Assembly a design for debate and discussion. They had no more mandate than that. They could not decide on a design for a flag for this Province, they could only suggest one to the House of Assembly. MR. S • NEARY: Right on! MR. R. MOORES: And the House of Assembly, for fear of anybody misunderstanding its role in society, is the people. It symbolizes an& embodies democracy in the sense that not everyone in this Province can come and sit in this House. You cannot put 600,000 people on this floor.

So we elect representatives to come and spealt for us. But the primary function of an MHA is to seek first the feelings of his constituents, and the responsibility of this House on so substantial and so basic and so fundamental an issue is not to ram it down the throats of the people but to go back to the people and ask for their opinions. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. B. TULK: You do not fight the people. MR. R. MOORES: You do not fight ~~e people.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, hon. members of the House, is where I have to get back, not to the primary issue in this case, the one of a new design, but I want to get back to the role of the government. This is a piece of government legislation. I have no control over it, nor does any member of this Opposition. Government legislation is introduced, created, composed by the government. 3720

May 9, 1980 Tape 1419 EC - 2 MR. s. NEARY: Rear, hear! MR. R. MOORES : And it is presented to this House for discussion. We have nothinc; to say about it on this side, absolutely nothinq. And when a piece of qovernment leqislation comes before this House, by its very nature as a piece of leqislation, our responsibility as an Opposition is to seek down throuqh it,in essence, · anything which may be of confrontation, of dislike, of rejection by the people that we represent. The people on this subject have spoken clearly, unequivocally and without any feeling of bitterness or bigotry.

No religion has surfaced its head, no bigotry that I knew of, no bitterness have I seen. The Royal Canadian Legion ue in the gallery this morninc;. They have come here with the greatest sense of civility - no noise, no beating doors, no approaching members and confronting them - they have come here as responsible citizens to voice their protest and they are not concerned with any action by the government aqainst them. They are not concerned that the qovernment in this case is acting as a qovernment, they are concerned that the government is acting without the will of the people. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

MR. R. MOORES : And this is consistent with this government. Do not let anybody be fooled that this is not consistent with this Premier. Do not be so foolish as to think ~~at we on this 3721

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1420 NM - 1 MR. MOORES: side do not see a pattern of approach by this Premier to issues confronting the people. In 1977 when he was the Minister of Municipal Affairs he told every town council in this Province that, "You will impose $144 a year on water and sewerage or else - MR. NEARY: That is right. Right on. MR. MOORES: -"or else," he said, "if you do not imPose it we will see that you do not get your capital grants:• Now there was no consultation there, no compromise, no discussion.

"You do it or else." And when it came to offshore oil regulations, he said to the oil companies, Mobil Oil, and the others that, "You will accept the regulation of Newfoundland or else." And the oil companies laughed at him and except for Allistair Gillespie, the Federal Minister of Energy, we would still be waiting for the oil companies to be drilling for oil. MR. NEARY: Right on. Right on. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. MOORES: And just last year, Mr.

Speaker, I get back to this new Municipalites Act, the single most disgusting piece of legislation in this House since I have been a member, no consultation, "you will take property tax or else ': And now they are saying to the people of Newfoundland, "You take the new flag or else." MR. NEARY: -- --- Right on. Right on. SOME HON. MEMBERS : H7ar, hear: MR. MOORES: We do not buy that. We do not buy that type of dictatorship, nor do we buy that the Premier of this Province has <Ti Yen his Party a free vote, nor do we buy that. MR. WARREN: . Shame: Shame! 372/

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1420 NM - 2 MR. MOORES: I have not heard anyone on the government side yet in opposition to it. And I can guarantee the Canadian Legion, and I can guarantee the people of Newfoundland, that if you do not speak up this flag is as good as through the House, because the trained seals on the other side will beat their flappers when the time comes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. MOORES: And I say to you here now, that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Jamieson), the Liberal Party of Newfoundland could have turned blue in the face, he could have told me from dawn until dusk that you are going to vote for or against this flag and it would have had as much effect on me as water on a duck's back. I am proud to say here that five minutes after the new flag was unfolded I walked into the Common Room of the Liberal Party and I was asked by a person who had been listening, "What are your feelings?" And I said I have never been more disappointed in all of my life.

And I want to back that up by saying that I, for what it is worth . in fact, it is worth nothing politic ally, 'that I am the first Canadian born Newfoundlander to sit in this House. That is to say I was the first Newfoundlander born after we joined Confederation to sit in this House. I have no allegiance to the Union Jack. I never fought i~ a war and I do not want to fight in one.

I believe that the waythrough confrontation is through peace and negotiation and I believe in that the Canadian Legion here, that that too is their goal ollnd objective, when I sat in the Liberal Reform Party, I was elected as a member of that party to this House firstly, I recall confronting the former leader of that party in l976,when the earlier design of the flag was proposed, and saying to him that I want a new flag, a flag that does not embody any of the biases or the bigotries of Newfoundland.

But I want one that is distinctively Newfoundland, that embodies 400 years of history for the people of this Province. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear~ 372:1

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1420 NM - 3 MR. MOORES: 400 years of suffering, of toil, of ------sweat, of humiliation, of deg ·redation, of colonialism, 400 years when most provinces in this Canada were not even in existence. We have 3724

May 9, 1980 Tape 1421 EC - 1 MR. R. MOORES : had self-government longer than the Provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba have been in existence. 'l11ey were still over there making mud houses when we were here with a government of our own, and that self-government has survived for those many years because governments have a tendency to act in accordince with, not against the will of their electorate. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES: This new design, Mr.

Speaker, embodies , in my opinion, the foolishness and the folly of a few gentlemen on a committee and one artist in Newfoundland to make their mark in history. And I say to you that when I came into this House, I came in here knowing .- my father always savs that no politician will end up anywhere but in hell - _;;....- but I kn .,Sw when I came into this House that I was getting into politics and that I would have to take the negative with the positive, in my case, more negative than positive but that is not indicated in the polls, thank God! SOME HCN. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. R.

MOORES: And wh.en I got into politics, Mr. Speaker, I was the same as Mr. Pratt - once he took upon himself the responsibility of creating a design, he automatically and implicitly took upon hiiiiSelf the ~sponsibility of any praise or any criticism. And I know for a fact, because one of the best artists in all of Newfoundland is a personal friend of mine with whom I have daily conversation, that there was no consultation by the designer of this flag within his profession.

David Blackwood, Noseworthy and a half dozen others, fine artists in their own right, were never consulted, which leads me to believe that the designer of this flag chose to make his mark in history. He said, 'If it is accepted, it will be forever,' - the design of Christopher Pratt. Now that public opinion has taken its course definitively and in opposition to that design, he must also now take the negative criticism. He must also stand up and be counted in the sense that he has created a design which is not acceptable to the people of this Province.

And the government, too, rather than ram it down the throats of Newfoundlanders, should go to the people in a referendum. I have suggested 3725

May 9, 1980 Tape 1421 EC - 2 HR. R. MOORES : that ten days aqo, I think, to my party in caucus and I am proud to say 1;hat the Canadian Leqion now has it as one of the planks in its II!Dvement. And I want to point out same ll!isc:onceptiens, Mr. Speaker. I am, myself, proud this morninq that I wu scheduled to speak at a time - by the way, s~ulinq to s"peak is done as a result of consultation with party members.· I do not choose to speak on a certain day. I asked for that privileqe to speak and I was qiven it.

And I am proud to say that the Canadian Leqion this morning is here while I am speakinq, ~ I am proud to say that I do not have to say that I am qoinq alonq with the crowd, that from the very first minute that this flaq was unfolded I was aqainst it and I rill be aqainst it for as lonq as it flies or as lonq as I am alive, whichever comes first. SOME RON. MEMBEBS: Hear, hear! MR.. :it. MOORES : the one thinq that I like - one must refer to the principal opponents of the flaq. The principal opponents in this House, as I understand it now, are the Opposition, not because we have been forced to be.

Nobody forces - I can point at a dozen~ on this side of the House that you could not force if you tried, to make a decision on any issue like this. You could not force them! They would just as soon sit as an Independent or leave politics altoqether than to be forced. MR. S. NEARY : We are not tryinq to qet into Cabinet. 3726

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 141!2 MR. S. NEARY: Nobody is trying to stay in the Cabinet or weasel their way into Cabinet . MR. R. MOORES : MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. S. NEARY: objective. MR. SPEAKER: MR. R. MOORES: MR. S. NEARY : That is right. Order, please! CCII1Pletely independent and Order, please! We have chosen - We want no favours. SD - l MR. R. MOORES: - an independent free vote and if I choose to vote with the Leader of r.y Party it does not mean that I am pretecting my extra $10,000 a year. I do not make $10,000 extra a year and for that one basic reaso~, why, I could not care less how he votes.

I suggest that that may·not be true of the government side. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. R. MOORES: I admire, first of all,the principal opponents in the public for the stand that they have taken. The Canadian Legion, as I understand it and I have it here right in front of me this mcrning, are not saying that they want the Union Jack. They are not saying thl't. There is no bigotry here, no bias • . Naturally, because the men represent the institution 1 not the group but the institution that they represent, naturally they WClilJ.d like to see the Union Jack embodied.

But they are not saying that and this is a misconception promoted and perpetuated by a government to lump them in ~ith the monarchists and the other biased individuals who want to express a point of view which is not consistent with rationality. They do not want the Union Jack, they want a flag that is different from this design, a flag that embodies the substance 1 the essentiality of the Newfoundland people. SO~ HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. R. MOORES : And that , Mr. Speaker, is a reasonable and a fair and a sensible request. That is all we are asking, that is all I am askinq, a new design.

I will vote for any new flag that is introduced in this House that will emboey the substance, the essence - 3727

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1422 so - 2 I ;:- /.......!.. , •• ..;.. -1: \.. ..... MR. T. WSB: The soul. MR. R. !«))RES: - the soul of the Newfoundland people.- any n- nao;,. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. R. MOORES: Now, a word of warning, I must end off, Mr. Speaker, as I always do - the Premier leaves, you see, when I speak. I de not knew if you haW! noticed that but he always leaves when I speak because ~he can not take it, particularly hom the member for Caldlonear. And there is a reason for that. I will not go into it but there is a reason for it.

I am going to issue a warninq to the Premier of Newfoundland as I issued a warninq to him on the offshore ownership topic. I sai~ • If you continue on this '111111 too' concept idea that you have about ownership, it is going to turn on you and it is goinq to consume you.' A week later I read in the Toronto Globe and Mail that the Premier of Newfoundland was speaking to a group in Toronto defendinq his 'me too' philosophy, saying, · "! am not anti-confederate, we do not want all of it for ourselves.

We are goinq to be fair, we are goinq to be good Canadians." Now, if the speech was not lost on him then that is why he gave that defence in Toronto and it means that he was not in tune with the people of this Province.

But he does not frequently or often enough go outside of the overpass to talk to the people and I am warning him now as a Liberal, I hope everyone of you on the other side votes for the flag because in the next election I can drape it outside my headquarters in Carllonear and I can say, 'Look, this is the only thinq that'Peckford'ever gave us and that is somethinq that we did not want." Now, everyone of you can vote against ..~ ......... it or for it as the case may be and I will be happy.

But as I Newfoundlander - a younq Newfoundlander not an old one - a younq Newfoundlander, one of the youngest in this House, there is only one younger and I think that is the Minister of Education (Ms. L. Verge), I am warning the Premier of this Province that if he continues on this stubborn,one-track mind that he has and forces this down the throats of the people of Newfoundland without going to them -now he has a number of methods open to him. He can go to the people in a referendum and although 3728

May 9, 1980 MR. R. .!«))RES : lll!femndum Act as such - SOME BON • MEMBERS : MR. R. MOORES : 'l'ape No. 1422 ,-,SD - 3 the Ptovince of Newfoun~and has no Oh, oh. - the Opposition here will aqne to pass a Referendlml Act in twenty seconds 8JI.d qo to the people on this issue, let them voice their opinion and if he has nothinq to fear, if he beliews that this flaq is the fl.aq of the people of Newfoundland or the majority thereof, then fine. I will stand up here in six 1110nths or a year and retract ewry wcrd I haw said. But, Mr. Speaker, I know that the people of Newfoundland will not forqet this basic issue.

They will forqet that you put up their taxes and they will for9Vt that you introduced school tu: and tooJc away the mothers' allowance and they will forqet a lot of other thinqs like matrimonial property laws, like universal property taxes, they will forqet that but when you rob them of their spirit, their idenity - MR. G. PLIGB'l': MR. R. MOO:RES : MR. G. ft.IGll'!': MR. R. MOORES: to forqet. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. It. MOORES : Their heritage. - their heritage - Their tradi. tions. - and their souls do not expect them Hear, hear. And they will not forqet and I predict, Mr.

Speaker, that if the Premier of this Province is 3729

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1423 NM- 1 MR. MOORES: concerned at all about democracy, if he is concerned at all about his government and more importantly, most importantly, if he is concerned with the people of Newfounldand he will not bring in this flag, he will let it die on the Order Paper, or he will go to the people in a referendum. Now I challenge the Premier. He got up last week in this House and he challenged the Opposition, all of us to write a letter ~iving him our full support in favour of their submission to Ottawa on offshore oil and gas.

Now I challenge the Premier, if you have any intestinal fortitude, if you have the courage that you say you have, if you are the man for Newfoundland that you say you are, go to the people, take it to the people, and let us see who will come out on top on this one. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Baird)l_ MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear~ The hon. member for Mount Scio. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. member MR. NEARY: I would like to move, Mr.

Speaker, at this point in time,that the flag debate be laid on the table of the House and not be raised again until six months hence. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order on that particular part. I recognize the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I think that this is typical of the tactics which we are seeing across the floor of the House. The hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) will have his chance to speak in this debate, and he attempts to get up on a point of order - MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: get my chance to speak. MR.

NEARY: Your own membe~ are (inaudible) - and cut off debate so that I do not You can speak on the ~ inaudible) 3730

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1423 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Bair!ll__ _ Order, please: We saw the hon. member opposite come in like a parliamentary pirate the other day with his black flag to express his contempt for the House, refused to remove it when asked by the Speaker and now attempts to cut off debate in this House. MR. NEA..~Y: I am trying to get (inaudible) MR. BARRY: ----- Well, Mr. Speaker, I was elected a member of this House and I want to have my say in the fla9 debate. I am entitled to have my say and I intend to have it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. BARRY: And if the hon. member for LaPoile -----(Mr.

Neary) disagrees with that that is just too bad. MR. NEARY: The hon. member is not (inaudible) MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I am happy to see members of the Canadian Legion here in the gallery today. I am particularly pleased to see certain of my constituents from Mount Scio district. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to make my position clear on the flag. I will be voting in favour-of the flag, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. BARRY: I will be voting in favour, I might add, despite a personal discomfort with the design. It is not a design with which I am comfortable.

It is not a design that I looked at and that grabbed me that I immediately said, "That is it. This should be our flag." It is not a design that I can see myself taking to quickly, wholeheartedly. But, Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest to this han. House that this is not the point, that the selection of this flag should not be a matter of personal aesthetics,secause if the selection of this flag depends upon getting unanimous consent, or even I would submit, Mr. Speaker, a majority of agreement with respect to the aestheticS of a design. we will never find a majority.

We will never find fifty-one per cent in this Province who will say aesthetically, "I find that design pleasing." "I like that design." "It moves me." "It pleases me., . "I prefer it to another design." Mr. Speaker, we will never get to that point 3731

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1423 NM - 3 MR. BA..'Ut'f: and, therefore 1 I believe that we have to put our personal preferences in teDIIS of the ae$thetics , in tents of how we feel about the design a$ide, and we have to consider this. we can have some emotion in the debate, Mr. Speaker, hut we have to consider it rationally. And we should not let, as ·the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) attempted to do, let emotion replace courage. We should not, Mr.

Speaker, as elected representatives of this House of Assembly, attempt to pass the huck and be afraid to exercise sotDe leadership and some courage in making these difficult decisions. Because, Mr. Speaker, this is one of the most difficult decisions that any !;louse of Assembly would hiilve to make for t:he very reason, as I have said, that there are so many different views, so many diverse views that it is imp.ossible, definitely impossible to expect unanimity, hut virtually impossible to expect 3 7 3 2'

May 9,1980 Tape No. 1424 AH-1 MR. BARRY: evea a majority ageeement. Now, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite, I think, will agree with me on that point add I must say I sympathize with han. members opposite who sat on the Flag Committe~who are now being stabbed in the back by their own colleagues opposite, who are starting to inject their partisan,political debate into what this House had earlier decided would be an non-partisan debate. And this House set up a select committee to go out and listen to the people of this Province and , Mr.

Speaker, I suppose there has never been as democratic an exercise in terms of seeking the views of the people of this Province. And I think, as the Chairman of the Committee pointed out, the consensus of that Committee, of this House, Mr. Speaker, was that there was not in this Province one clear symbol, one clear design that stood out above all as something that had to be -- _ .... our flag. So that,therefore 1 we had to , Mr. Speaker, see some initiative on the part of our Flag Committee and I must say I compliment them for the courage with which they undertook this difficult task. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to just briefly speak for a few moments on the purpose of a flag, on the history and symbolism of flags. That by the way, the study of the history and symbolism of flags 1 is called vexillology from the Latin vexillum meaning a square flag or banner. Now , Mr. Speaker, the purpose of a flag, the colours, the ~siqn is supposed to stand for a country's land, its peoples, its government, its ideals.

The Egyptians were one of the first to use flags, streamers that they put on poles going into battle in the expectation that their Gods would help them win by this particular display. There was a more practical reason , Mr. Speaker, for flags in early military life. The flag showed the direction of the wind. It assisted the soilders in aiming their arrows by telling them which way the wind was blowing. It also, Mr.

Speaker, in battle,represented • particular side arid in the hurly-burly, the confusion of the battle field 1 it gave the opposing sides positions around which to rally and you have the phrase, 'Rally around the flag.' As people, as one side 3733

May 9,1980 Tape No. 1424 AH -2 MR. BARRY: or another became hard pressed the flag was the position around which they would rally. Mr. Speaker, there is supposed to be symbolism in a flag .A flag is supposed t:o symbolize the ideals of a country, a nation or a Province and,therefore,we have the cross wbich is present in many flags and is present in the design that is put before this House, a. =ass, the symbol of a Christian nation. We see in many other flags symbols such as stars. The star is the symbol of life and of unity. we have other symbols of peace.

Different colours are supposei, ill certain countries, :to CODDOt.e peace and life. Mr. Speaker, all of these contain certain symbolisms for the people of the nation which has the particular design in the flag. Now, Mr. Speaker, I.would like to ask why was it that our Flag Committee in going around this Province, in going around to all parts of the Province, was not able to come up witha single symbol that the majority of our people could look at and say, '"l'hat is Newfoundland. That to me represents Newfoundland'. ? Mr.

Speaker, I would submit that it is very probab.le that the reason no such symbol exists is because we have been so divided in our past· by the type of partisan, political politics we see played here today by members opposite, that we have not had suffic .ient unity within our Province to develop one outstanding symbol that is Newf(Jundlands, the symbol of Newfoundland. Ours , Mr. Speaker, has unfortunately all too often been a history 373 4

May 9, 1980 Tape 1425 EC - 1 MR. L. BARRY: of division, of unrest, yes, even of hatred at times amongst ourselves. We have been divided religiously, we have been divided ethnically, we have been divided politically, and Mr. Speaker, it is time to make a new beginning. And this flag can be the symbol of a new beginning. This flag can be the symbol of a new Newfoundland, a non-partisan symbol selected by members·from both sides of this hon. House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. L. BARRY: for this flag. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. L. BARRY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker , that is why I am voting Hear, hear! And I am doing it, Mr.

Speaker, in the knowledge that I have had serious expressions of concem from constituents in my district. I have had expressions of concern from members of the Canadian Legion - I have had expressions of concern from Legionnaires who were on the executive of my district association. I have had expressions of concern from citizens, and I have to mention one lady in particular. She called me up the day after the design came out and she said, 'You know, this design bothers me.

I am not comfortable with that - I do not think I will ever be able to accept that design.' And she said, 'You know, I want a new flag.' Her daughter, Mr. Speaker, had had the honour of carrying the flag in the Newfoundland Summer Games. She carried the Union Jack. And her daughter was almost brought to tears when she came home telling her mother about how many times she had to try to explain that Newfoundland was not part of Britain to members of the other delegations out West where the games were being held. And, Mr.

Speaker, because of that particular experience, that family - and it was a family of five or six children and the mother and father - they had decided that they had to accept the notion that Newfoundland should have its own distinctive flag - not because the Union Jack, Mr. Speaker, is not a good flag. I must say, looking at the cleverness, the ingenuity, the imagination that went into the creation of the Union Jack from the flags of St. George, St. Andrew and st. Patrickr it was a tremendous flag to help bring together England, Scotland and Ireland. I am not sure that it succeeded in its 3735

May 9, 1980 Tape 1425 EC - 2 MR. L. BAlmY: task, Mr. Speaker, totally, but it was a tremendous flag. But, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, it was a flag that was adopted in another countcy and while we are proud as Newfoundlanders to acknowledge our British tradition, and while we respect the tremendous sacrifice that our veterans gave to this country - and my father is a veteran, Mr. Speaker. I have uncles, close relatives, who fought in the Second World War, so I have direct representation from members of our Canadian Legion very close to home. Mr.

Speaker, we can acknowledge our traditions, we can respect the sacrifice of our veterans, but that does not mean that we then have to refuse to adopt a flag that is distinctively Newfoundland's. Mr. Speaker, I submit that we can and we should adopt a new flag. I am saying this,again,with the other concern that has been raised with respect to this particular flag. On the one hand we have people saying that the Union Jack is not there. Well, we have the suggestion that a goodly portion of the Union Jack is there. People will disagree as to whether they see it or not.

Okay , I have had serious concern expressed by members of the Provincial Flag Society who put a lot of work into trying to develop a new flag and their main concern is that the Irish tradition is not represented in the new flag, that there is no green in the flag or nothing to connote 3736

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1426 NM- l MR. BARRY: ----- the Irish tradition and you have forty- eight to fifty per cent of our people in this Province who can trace their ancestry back to their Irish rbQts, and I am one of them, Mr. Speaker. I am one of them. I am proud of my Irish ancestry. But, Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to go with a fl.ag that does not have something that is obviously Irish because I am saying to this hon. House, and I asking members of this han.

House to adopt a flag, to adopt a design, to adopt a symbol. which 1if it does not illlmediatel.y evoke al.l. the history and tradition ., the ethnic links and so forth of our nation, it can be the symbol of a new beginning for this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. BARRY: ----- And it is not easy, Mr. Speaker, I have to say, for me to take this position because I say again I do not like the fl.ag. Unfortunately I do not like the design. I respect Christopher Pratt. I have to take the blame, I suppose, if you call it blame for having suggested the .name of Mr. Pratt.

Myself and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Colrins) 1 even before the Flag Committee was set up by the House, had sat down for an hour or so and tried to put together a couple of designs. And I believe we have to take some blame for the triangles as well., becau .se this was a symbol for Newfoundland and Labrador that we arrived at and that we passed on to the Flag Committee. But, Mr. Speaker, although I like Mr.

Pratt's art, I have three or four of his prints at home, I enjoy looking at his prints, I find them peaceful, relaxing, unfortunately when I look at this particular print I do not find it peaceful. or relaxing. I find it jarring, and I think it is the arro~ the golden arrow that is disturbing. But, Mr. Speaker, I think everybody would have to say it is unique. It is different.

And,you know, again,I never thought that I would be bothered enough by the final design of a flag to spend a lot of time thinking about it and I found myself the night after this one came out, I had to take out the World Book Encyclopedia and go through the ten or eleven pages of flags there 1 they have 3737

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1426 NM - 2 MR, BARRY..:._ all the flags in the world, and I had to go through trying to see if there was maybe another design that could possibly be brought before this House that would sweep everybody up in the einotion of the moment and that we could walk out of this House with a different design. I was that serious about my personal discomfort with the particular design. And I even arrived at a design, Mr. Speaker, that might have been appropriate until I looked through here and I found out that Iceland had already adopted it some time ago. Mr.

Speaker, I mention this just because I c .an sympathize with my constituents, I can sympathize with the people of this Province who are uncomfortable with the flag. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that as soon as I saw it I was uncomfortable with it, as soon as my wife saw it she liked it bmnediately. And I respect her opinion in matters such as this. She has a good head on her shoulders, and that is why, Mr.

Speaker, I am prepared to say that I believe, I believe that within one year, and it may take that iong, that within one year after this flag is adopted in this House, that not only will I feel comfortable about it, not only will this, for me, symbolize Newfoundland, symbolize our Province, Mr. Speaker, I think the same will be true for the vast majority of people of this Province. I think that within one year, Mr. Speaker, that we will see the people of this Province accepting this flag· as the symbol of a new beginning, Mr.

Speaker, a symbol that Newfoundland has arrived at the point where we are going forward into a bright ~uture 1 a symbol 3738

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1427 DW - 1 MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that we now have in this }'rovince, a progressive, dynamic, growing and proud group of Newfoundlanders 1 Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker, wanting to stand on their own two feet, wanting to develop their own resources by Newfoundlanders for Newfoundlanders, sharing definitely with the rest of Canada, sharing with other parts of the world that are not as lucky as we are, but, Mr.

Speaker, having in their own hands the degree to which they share, not being exploited, being proud Canadians as well as proud Newfoundlanders,developing their resources for their people to the extent where not only are they standing on their own two feet, earninq their own way in Confederation 1 but also able to contribute and share to other parts of Canada and other parts of the world. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is what I see this new flag may symbolize for us.

I believe that even if within the year we still have some people in this Province who are disturbed by this flag, that we have to think in terms of generations and 1 indeed 1 in terms of centuries, and that, Mr.

Speaker, the next generation. they will see this flag and they will say, 'Has there ever been anythincr else?' And I must say I was impressed, Mr.Speaker, by the television programme I saw the same day that the flag came out where they showed one of the classrooms in the city and they showed the teacher had set up the design in front of the class and had asked the kids what they thought about it and had set them to drawing it. I •as amazed that they all had their little rulers out and their little compasses and they were going right to it, Mr.

Speaker, and they had done it 1 they had put that design down in the space of about five or ten minutes and it was so natural, it was so fresh 3739

May 9, 1980 Tape No.l427 ow - 2 MR. L. BARRY: the acceptance with which that design came into that classroom. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would submit tha~ members of this hon. House should think in those terms. We should be prepared ourselves, Mr. Speaker, even if we may be a little uncomfortable with the newness, maybe even the brashness,some might feel, the boldness, the challenge that is evoked by that great golden arro~ which bothers me, Mr.

Speaker, but we should be prepared to accept the discomfort, we should be prepared,even if it is the rest of our lives~to be a'little unsettled with soinethi ,ng new that has col!le into our life 1 if, by doing that,we can have develop from this day on in this Province a symbol of a proud, united Newfoundland that our children will then accept with full and open hearts, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that for once we see this Province make a new beginning, united, confident and proud. Thank you, very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) The hon. member for Bonavista North. Z-1R. L.

STIRLING: Have I been recognized? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bona- vista North has been iecognized. MR. L. STIRLING : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have listened with a great deal of interest to the comments made about this flag. I am sure that the young people who are visiting here from Twillingate t.his morning - MR . W.N. ROWE ; New World Island. MR. L.

STIRLING : - the district of Twillingate, New \~orld Island School, are seeing at first-hand, and they will be interested in telling their children, ~~d in same way as some of the Legioniares will be telling their grandchildren 1 that they sat here this morning and listened to part of this great debate, the 3740

May 9, 1980 Tape 1428 EC - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: debate about our new provincial flag. Now, I do not know if they still teach in school a little story that they taught when I went to school twenty years ago, but there was a little thing called The Emperor's Clothes. I do not know if they teach that in school anymore. MR. T. LUSH: No, that is old-fashioned. MR. L. STIRLING: It was a little story about the emperor -we eould call him 'Emperor Peckford' for the sake of making a comparison with that little story in school and today.

Somebody went and sold the emperor some new clothes and the story of the new clothes was that the emperor was bare,naked. The emperor was absolutely bare,naked, but this great designer who had been brouqht into the court - let us call it Emperor Peckford's court - this great designer came to the emperor and said, 'I will design you the finest suit of new clothes in the world.' He said, 'You cannot feel the material, you cannot see the material, but it is the finest material in the world.' And nobody in his court would tell him the truth.

And they designed it and designed it, and there was the great day, the great unveiling, when the emperor went out in front of all the crowds in his new clothes of the finest material, and he was stark naked and nobody dared tell him until a little child who was standing up at the side pointed out and giggled and said, 'The emperor is naked!' The little child told him the truth. 'Mr. Barry'told us the story of The Emperor's New Clothes this morning.

He said, 'I looked at it and said, 'Oh, my, do I have to live with that?' And Emperor Peckford told us here when that was brought in - swore, said, across the way, 'I did not see it before. I did not see the flag.' the Flag Committee did not let him see it. I think he was even turning his back when the thing was unveiled, talking to somebody.

As soon as it was unveiled - 'Hurray, great new flag!' Before he saw it, it was a great new flag, a wonderful new flag, and everybody there looked at the emperor and said, 'Yes, the emperor says it is a new flag- it is a new flag.' I do not know whether the children all over the Province said to their mothers and fathers who are in this 3741

May 9, 1980 Tape 1428 EC - 2 MR. L. STnu.mG: House of Assembly, as they went home, the kinds of things that were said to me~ 'Oh, yuk!' - that is a child's expression - 'How gross!' So my eyes were opened from the first. But then, r·am only one representative and I make no apologies, I could not serve in the last war because I was born a year or two before the war broke out. I could not serve in the last war, but I tried to find out from people who did serve what it meant to serve under a flag, what it meant, what kind of sa=ifice. What are these Legionnaires here this morning for?

Is it just because the eiiiPeror did not want to be told that he had no clothes? Is it as the member for Mount Scio {Mr. L. Barry) said this morning, ' I did not like the flag. I went home and I got out the encyclopedia and said, Somewhere in the world there must be something better.' 3742

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1429 NM- 1 MR. STIRLING -: There was such a feeling that people came on Open Line shows, they c.al~ed in in legions ~d said, "This cannot be true. My God this cannot be true. They do not really say that this is going to be the new Newfoundland flag." And the reaction that the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) had was echoed right through this whole Province. Now. there is a lot of symbo~ism. My colleague from Carbonear (Mr. Moores) put his finge:r on it this morning, the symbo~iSlll in this flag. It is not a mistake.

This Premier, just as soon as he got elected said, "Every premier in the past was a dead loss, they blew it." The former administration, Premier Moores, the former administration before that, everybody, There is going to be a new date as the next thing brought in, everything wil~ be before Pe .ckford and after Peckford, the new beginning. MR. LUSH: BP and AP. MR. STIRLING: He came on and said, "Newfoundland starts as of March 1979,"forget 400 years of history. Forget it, it just started.And there has been evidence of it in everything that they have done and this is very symbolic:.

Regardless of the feelings that the member for Mount Scio had, he is a member of the Cabinet, and I am sure that he had to say to his colleague, the Premier, "Look, you are never going to get away with this." Now, the Premier was approached by the Legion on a means of fair play. Now. those of us on this side, fro~ a political point of view, saw the first indications of the kind of fair play from this Premier when we called a leadership convention last Spring. Our leader had ca~led a leadership convention last Spring and we were starting to look at various candidates.

On the Friday morning that we were talking about, "Let us look at the potential candidates and would Mr. Jamieson be one of them; Friday morning we started that 1 this same Premier, who when he got elected said, "Oh,we will maybe have 3743

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1429 NM - 2 MR. STIRLING: ------ an election in the Fall," before he got elected was saying, "My approach is that I am going to prove to the people for three or four months what kind of a Premier I will be and then in the Fall maybe we will have an election,'' this same Premier that Friday afternoon, twenty-one days notice, called an election and he was successful. Let us give him credit for that. As a politician he was successful, and he won the government. And maybe that was the undoing of that government and that Premier because he then said, "I can do whatever I want.

Fair play does not make any difference. The people in Newfoundland did not revolt against me." He made the mistake of thinking that because he got away with one dirty trick then the people of Newfoundland did not care. He did not realize how important it was to the people of Newfoundland tha.t they said, they said,"There is a Federal PC Government in Ottawa, this is our first chance to have a Provincial PC Government here, let us,for the first time in our lives 1 have these two great governments working together." And the people of Newfoundland said, "That makes sense. Young 'Peckford'makes sense.

He is talking about a clean, new approach to goveriunent and we are going to give him a chance. Because for the first time we are going to have a PC Government there - ~SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please: Order, please: 3744

May 9, 1980 MR. SPEAJ:ER (Baird) : we are discussing Bill 44. MR. L. STIRLING: Tape No. 1430 so - l I would like to remind the hon. ~~ember 'thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are talking about Bill 44, symbolism. What is being symbolized in this flag? Everybody on the other side talked about symbolism, the last speaker talked about it, oar qreat future, and, Mr. Speaker, I WOllld submit that there is a lot of symbolism in this fiaq and that is what I am trying to tie it into.

I am trying to tie it into what this flaq really means and the pattern of this government, the pattern of this leader who made the mistake of thinking that Newfoundlanders would allow them - they thought that N-foundlanders were voting for them because he called a trick election and he caught the Liberals not being prepared and that was true. But he missed the main point, that the reason that Newfoundlanders voted for him and his government was that they were going to give him· a fair chance, fresh new government with a PC government in Ottawa and that was the main reason.

Newfoundlanders basically in their gut are fair, absolutely fair. New, let u5 take a look at this debate , let us take a look at what we agree on on both sides of the House. I think we had one of the fines~ Committees that we could have selected.

I think the committee did a very conscientious job, they went out and they got opinions and then, because there was not agreement, they said, "Okay let us submit it to an artist to design," And they submitted it to one of Newfoundland$ greatest artist. l\nd ,with all due respect, with everything that they gave him to do that 1 he did a good artistic piece of work,in keeping with his other worlc and if anyone would like to buy that as an artistic representation of what all Newfoundlanders ask for that would be acceptable but it is not acceptable to the basic decent,har~~rking average Newfoundlander, it is not acceptable as their flag.

Now, let us see what we agree on. I am concerned that this pattern, the government's pattern is being followed into this flag debate. The government found they had a problem with the Fisheries Loan Board and what did they do~ "rhe Premier came in here in October and fired the fishermen off the Board and said, "That is it," He has never admitted 3745

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1430 SD - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: yet that they fired the fishermen off the Board. They hiad gone through all kinds of legal entanglements but without the sense of decency to contact the fishermen, he the Board. fired them off Now, what did he do with the flag? He brought in the flaq and said, "We like it, we are goinq to force it throuqh and we had better force it throuqh fast before the Opposition builds up• Now, let us look at the position of the Legion. &ld the Legion are beinq painted as the villian by the government in this. Let us look at the position of the Leqion. MR. NEARY: shame. MR. L.

STIRLING: Now, what rights have the Legion to question or tell Emperor'Peckford'that he has got no clothes? What right have they got to point out - MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: - that this does not - Order, please: Hon. members should be referred to by their district. I would remind the bon.member of that. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What right have the Legion got to come in? I do not doubt that I will be called to order a dozen times during my comments on this important matter because it is an important matter.

What right has the Legion got to ask for six months postponement? What did they ever do to come into the government and say, "Listen, Premier, we want a distinctive Newfoundland flag. We have debated it, discussed it brought it into our Legion meetings, brought it into our annual conventions. We want a distinctive Newfoundland flag and we want something of our heritage and our past." Now, what right have those fellows got to ask for that, asking this House to postpone the debate on a flag for six months? You would think that t.'lere was a war tomorrow morning and we have got to haw a flag - MR. W.N.

ROWE: To go to war. MR. L. STIRLING: -to go and fight under it. I wilL tell you,if ~~ere was a war tomorrow morning 99.9 per cent of the Legionnaires 3746

May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1430 so - 3 Mlt. I.. STIRLING.: would be tb• firs1; one$ to line ~ as they did in 1939 ;. and they did in the ~an c:Onfllct. What right ha'll8 they gOt to ask the P:r:emittr to postpone some~ for six mocths! when they ~t in 1939, and fouqht and 9ave 1211 their fQIU.ies anci 1;heir homes and their se~ ty in 1939 .- what ? - for two . ays 1 374 7

May 9,1980 Tape No. 1431 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: seven days, six monthsi Is that what they are trying to trade offwith the Premier, six montns that they gave of their lives and their family's lives? Is that what they are asking for? No, Mr. Speaker, six years~ Six years!children grew up, friends got killed, brothers and sisters and husbands got killed over there in the trenches and we on November 11th have the gall t~ go through the lip service of saying we will wear a poppy and thank God that they fought. We are talking about a new beginning for Newfoundland, a new future for Newfoundland. Who gave it to us?

Who gave us the future if it was not the Legionaires and the people who fought and the families who gave up? They traded six years of their lives and they went and saw the Premier and said, ~Can we have six months, Mr.Premier? Can we have six months?" Was this all such a great issue? Is this such a great issue that these Legionaires do not have the right to say to our Premier, "Give us six months. Just ~ive us six months".? What has their approach been? There is a way out,you know,but I do not think this government can take it.In the same way as they have looked for co~frontation today, Mr.

Speaker, today they are making the most un-Canada like, the most cowardly , _the most separatist kind of move by breaking off •.-d th Quebec and saying, 'Ottawa you come in; And I tell you, I had people in here from Quebec who said, :what is your Premier doing?" 'Peckford'said this and then you had a situation in which Levesque was using it in the media, saying, 'Here you are, if we were an independent country we could negotia~e! Now they are referring it to Ottawa. I do not believe that this government has aBy loyality to anybody but Emperor 'Peckford'.

And I think what this government will do- from a purely political point of view I agree with my colleague from Carbonear (Mr. Moores), as a Liberal who intends to contest the next election and fight as a Liberal, I would like nothing better, from a purely political point of view, than to be able to look to this flying symbolism of the 'Peckford' absolute arrogancer the arrogance that would not let the Legion say) 3748

Hay 9,1980 Tape No. 1431 AH-2 MR. STIRLING: "Let us loo~ at it for six months." That is all the Legion has ask~d for. Now, there is a way out. There is a way out but I do not know if this government who has a past of taking the bit in their teeth ia.nd saying, "To hell with the consequences, we will fight, it does not make any difference"-' now there is a way out and the way out was given to us by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) • Symbolic that it comes from Labrador, symbolic that it comes from a new member, and what he said was so simple if we could agree to it, every member in this Hou.se should be able to agree to it~ it tied in with what the hon. member for Mount Scio just said, it tied in with what the Legion is saying. The member for Torngat Mountains (lolr. warren) gave us the answer but I do not know if the other side is interested in a way out off a problem that will help Newfoundlanders reconcile it. The member for Torngat (Mr.

Warren) said in his speech, for the first sic months that the committee was meeting - and they are an excellent Committee. One of the real problems that I have is that I have to vote against this flag when I have great respect for the committee and I would like to be able to support them. But the way out has been given by the member for Torngat (Mr.Warren). Here is what he said, "It is obvious that we are looking for something that will unite us and put us together." We are all in agreement on that. We are agreed on the other side. We are agreed here and the Legio~ agrees. The member for Torngat Mountains 374q

:·tay 9, 1980 Tape No. 1432 DW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: (Mr. Warren) said, 'Let the committee take this flag and go throughout tbe Province and h.old its hearings because - . - ---.. . because now people have some ·thing to react to.

Go out, hold your hearings, people will have something to react t~ Now that they can see it, they will come in and give you their inpu .t and let the committee report back then on their findings not stubbornly, blindly going ahead. 'To hell with the consequences, to hell with our traditions.' Because one of the things that has been said by everybody throughout --' Newfound ·land is,'we want to be united, we want t·o have a future, we want to be good Canadians but we want to be Newfoundlanders and we want to see somethin~so that when you look at the flag you can feel proud.

You can say, t.here is Newfoundland, there is my Newfoundland flag'. And when they are marching with it, when the Legion ar .e u.p there they can be happy, they can be proud, they can nave something that reminds them of Newfoundland, something of the past. They must now , in their fa ·milies , say, 'What dd.d we fight for?

From 1939 to 1945 we thought the enemy was.over there.But today Legionaires from all over the country have come in, taken time n~f from work, given up holidays, given up sacrifices and they come in and say, 'Premier, out Premier' - great respect for him - they say . 'Premier, why do you not delay this for six months? Let us go out and see if there is not a compromise, if we can- not negotiate something t.h.at we can all be proud of?' That . .. ·- .----:-- · is all that they have said, they have not said they want . __ __.:...· the Union Jack first, last and always.

What they said is 'We want a distinctive Canadian flag, that is what we want~ AN !!O N . ME ~IBER : A distinctive Newfoundland flag. 37 51')

-.. -- -- --- --- - May 9, 1980 Tape No. 1432 ow - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: A distinctive Newfoundland flag, right. 'We want a distinctive Newfoundland flag: You want it on that side, we·want it on this side and the Legion wants it. Mrs. Carter,who is here th -is morning, one of the greatest represe ·n.tatives of the Monarchy and all of our ·traditi~ns would be happy with a distinctive Newfoundland 'flag that gives proper attention to the )1onar~Fi~_and the Union Jack. A.nd the Legion have said, 'Look, there is no· rush. in this, what is the rush, Premier?' They said, 'Look, why do we not take a six month delay!.

Our friend for Torngat Mountains (Mr. warren) has come up with a solution. I, for one,would agree with the solution, I am sure that all rea .sonable people would agree with the same thing. The Legion and all of the people of Newfoundland a~e asking the Premier to be reasonable, are asking the Premier to give us six months. What is the great urgency other than the same kind of thinking that said, "Empe ·ror 'Peckford' has decided what is in the best interest of Newfoundlandl' t1R . S. NEARY: King 'Brian '. ~1R. L. ST!RLING: No, emperor, ·The emperor had no clothes and this is the same kind of thing.

If he will allow - Premie~ I am glad that you are back beaause I t-rould like for us to try to find the <rorea in which a problem can be resolved. There are no problems that cannot be re- solved if reasonable people sit down 3751 ~

May 9 , 1980 Tape No. 1433 NM- 1 MR. STIRLING: and work out a reasonable basis. There is no problem in the world that cannot be solved by negotiations amongst reasonable peoole. MR. NEARY: MR. STIRLING: With a little common sense. But there are two approaches. There is no question that the government has the absolute right to ram this through. There is no question that they were elected to govern. No question whatsoever that they have the right.

Front a purely political point of view I hope that they do not have the good sense on this occasion to recognize that there is a s.ubstantial body of opinion who are saying, "Premier do not rush into a decision today or tomorrow or you will regret it." Now,the Canadian Legion has become the focal point because they have servea in a way that none of us can ever duplicate, and I hope, as members do on the other side, that we are never called upon to have to go through that kind of problem. I hope that we never ever have to fight again.

But out of respect, if there was one Legionaire, if there was one Legionair~ in this country, just one, who c~ to me and said, "I have very strong feelings about this flag and I want to have some tllue to think about it, can we not delay it for six months?" I would say- if there was only one in the whole country who fought for this country in the only way, the absolute sacrifice, laid down his life. some of them actually paid the supreme sacrifice.

It is the kind of stupidity - I was in the Royal Newfoundland Militia and I am proud to still be in the reserve of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment - it is the kind of stupidity that the Premier is going ahead with this morning, and whenever he pushes it through, if he is going to be stubborn, it is the same kind of stupidity that put the first ranks of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment into battle against unbelievable odds and got them wiped out. If there was one relative of that Royal Newfoundland 3752

May 9, 198 0 Tape Mo. 14 33 NM- 2 MR. STIRLING: Regiment who came in here and said, "Look, for something as :iJnportant as the flag-because I would say for the majori~ of us, the majority of us have never had the occasion to rally round the flag. Every member of the Canadian Legion did. The member for Mount Scio (Ml;". Barry) mentioned the case of a young lady who did. She represented Newfoundland carrying what was the Newfoundland Flag, the Onion Jack, and she came home in tears, as he has said, because she did not have a distinctive Newfoundland flag. Everybody wants a distinctive Newfoundland flag.

There is room in it for the Union J;ick. There is )'oom in it for all of the other concerns. The Canadian Legion -you see the dbuc~ling. MR. NEARY: They think i. t is funny. ~STIRLIN~ On one hand this symbolism tells us that everything got put into it, that everything got put it. If you look at this flag it has everything ,that eveeybody has asked for, if you hold it the right way and you be careful not to hold it the wrong way • I was accused of making an obscene sign with the flag. The flag lends itself to ridicule.

And there is one thing that is absolutely, absolutely something that no Legionaire will stand for, ridiculing the flag. It is treated with the greatest of respect. And this flag lends itself to ridicule. I am not criticizing the Committee. I am not criticizing the artist. All I am saying is the same thing that the Legionaires have said, that if you are so sure - it is the emperor's new clothes all over again. The last speaker, the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) said, "I do' not like the flag but I will accept- 375 3

May 9, 1980 Tape 1434 EC - l MR. L. STIRLING: what the Premier says, that it will grow on me. The Emperor's New Clothes - if he walks around naked long enough and convinces enough people that he has a suit of clothes on, they will believe it. That is very narrow-minded. I may run out of time anytime ; I have been warned that I have a few minutes left. MR. S. NEARY: Pretty soon that rocket will hit them in a place where they least expect it, that rocket on the flag. MR. L.

STIRLING: I just want to sum up by saying I did go out to my district to find out how the people in the district felt and the people in the district want me to vote against the flag. I make no apologies that I, in my own case, consider I represent the people of the district of Bona vista North and I am voting in accordance wi tl1 their wishes.

I make no apologies for saying, yes, I was influenced by the Royal Canadian Legion, and yes, I will be a mouthpiece for the Royal Canadian Legion, and yes, I will ask the Premier as many questions as the Royal Canadian Legion want asked, or any other group, because we, in this House are not the emperors, we are not the kings. We got elected and we know. During an election we go along and we knock on the door and say , 'May I have your vote? ' - 'Oh, thanks very much , boy! ' And you go to the next guy - because they are putting in us as servants.

The Premier and his group may feel that the people who are strong lifetime P.C.s are going to say, 'Well, when the time really comes they will rally round the flag. You can take St.John's for granted, you can take the Legion, who are P.C. members, they may be upset now, but this will all die down.' That is an absolute insult to the intelligence, to the determination, to the emotionalism of Newfoundlanders. We have been asked, Do not get involved in emotionalism. Mr. Speaker, that is all the flag is. The flag does net represent anything else but the blood and sweat and emotions and souls of Newfoundlanders.

There is nothing else to the flag. The flag can be a nice artistic design. That is all that the flag is, the emotionalism, scme~~ing to rally round and say, 'I am a Newfoundlander and I am proud to rally round the flag. That is my flag: Get excited about being Newfoundlanders: 3754

May 9, 1980 Tape 1434 EC - 2 MR. L. S'l'IRLING; Mr. Speaker , I know my time has run out. I could go on fo:c hours because it is illlportant to me what Newfoundlanders think and feel. I am not =itical. of the members on the other side and have never been.

I believe that they, too, are here to serve the people, that they want to serve the people , and I urge you to do what the Legion have suggested, take a look at it, what some of the colleagues have suggested, and more partiC\llarly, the way that you can get out of this impasse if you can let your pride down a little bit, by the very reasonable suggestion by the member for Torngat (Mr. G.Warren) to let the Committee take this out and hear what the people have to say. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear 1 hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the President of the Council. SOME HON.

MEMBERS ; Hear 1 hear! MR~ SPEAKER; Order, please! MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, when this debate was first cal.led at the instance initially, although there was unanimous decision on this at the time , of . the Leader of the Opposition, subsequently confirmed by the Premier, this was supposed to be a free vote. It is a free vote as far as this side is concerned, but the unfortunate situation is it has now derogated itself into the realms of partisanship as we have seen fr0111 the statements emanating from the other side of the House.

Members of the Canadian Legion here opposite who are here present today, I know full well that they will sit back and they will judge the type of speech that we have just heard as