LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 26 June, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee will come to order. Page 34, Item 4.(

b) Child and Family Support: Resolut ion 32. The Member for Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I'd just like to briefly go back, Mr. Chairrmm , about the review committee , consulting with front line social workers and the confidentiality , would the Minister be able to tell us exactly how they would go about speaking to - and I'm not talking about the supervisors - I'm talking about the social workers who are going into the homes all the time and doing the actual work? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Minister of Community Services . HON. M.

SMITH: If I understand the question right, the member is wanting to know what procedure will be followed in such case . I think we've outlined to them the type of questions we want answered , and in a sense we've hired a social worker who specializes in social systems and a doctor with special knowledge and experience in child abuse and rely on them, in a sense , to design the process they will use. I expect that they 'll follow the usual ethical principles of accepting being open to people who offer them information and seeking out people who may have direct experience.

I presume they 'll use a type of sampling, plus letting it be known where they 're available if people wish to initiate contact. I would presume that conversations would not - if they were about specific cases - it wouldn't be for the purpose of specific cases being written up. What would be written up would be samples of how cases are being handled and suggestions how that could be improved, if that is what they find . Perhaps if the member could focus me - for my benefit - a little more closely on whether she has fears or concerns or just straight interest . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Interest certainly, but I guess the concern is the people seeking out, say, the social workers under the supervisory level. If someone wanted to speak to the committee, how would they be able to do it? I think there 's sometimes fear of talking to committees about things. How would they be able to go about that without the world knowing about the fact that they were there , not what they were saying? HON. M. SMITH: Well , the place , I've passed on the address of the people , they don 't yet have a phone number .

But we will certainly make it known throughout the system that we expect - as a matter of fact , I think we already have - people to cooperate fully. If anyone had any fear , they could certainly expect protection from us. I think if anyone wants to know how to submit in an anonymous way - well , maybe not anonymous, but to be sure that their concerns are heard - is to write in. I think they can be sure that their identity would be protected , though . I don't recommend anonymous letters, but I do think that what they say and the fact they 've written in would be treated with respect and confidentiality . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Will there be any families, contacted mothers in this review? HON. M. SMITH: Again , we didn 't design this study to the nth degree by selecting professional people with expertise in how best to do these types of studies . I think we've had confidence that they would pursue their review in an ethical way. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, I am not doubting that it be done in an ethical way, I'm just wondering how deeply they 'll go and possibly the Minister has given them instructions to, say, talk to some families who have been, some mothers who have been in a position of having abused children , front line social workers , just areas that possibly the committee might not delve into. HON. M. SMITH: I'm certainly more than happy to pass on that notion and would encourage the member, if she had any other suggestions , that she herself could submit them to the review group . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I had asked before we adjourned about the number of staff in the different agencies - and I've got the figures - and I was looking at it in a more general way. What I am wondering with the number of staff attached to each of the agencies , have the agencies considered going into more specialization with a number of the people, poss ibly not all the staff , but specialists in, say, child abuse, specialists who deal with foster homes , adoption , pre and postnatal care? HON. M.

SMITH: The pattern that we see evolving and which we expected to evolve is varied depending on the size of the caseload in a particular area. The service delivery pattern will depend largely on the volume of particular types of problems that emerge . Certainly the larger agencies are already deve loping some degree of special responsibility or ability. The smaller ones tend to use a more consultative mode without necessarily, you know , specifically designated experts. But there are other bac kup people that they can call on for advice . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Chairman , from what I can understand about some of the problems that have been happening in the agencies, is that the social workers aren 't, or people aren 't necessarily dissatisfied with decentralization , but they are feeling that a lot of the 1335

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 foul-ups come because of inexperience; and that a generic social worker - if that's the term that's being used - can't possibly know ever ything about every pha se of what happens.

So if someone - the need in other words - to go out and be able to assess what is actually happening without having a fair amount of expertise in, say, child abuse or in these areas, it's knowing whether to apprehend or not getting - I think the word that was used once was "conned" - by the people and the feeling was it was not from anyone not doing their work pro per ly, it was just the ine xperie nce that was happening; and that the feeling of a lot of people in the field is that they need more specialization because you can't expect everyone to have the kind of expertise that is needed in all the se cases.

HON. M. SMITH: As I understand, most social work situations call for a blend of professional judgment by the individual, based on their trainin g, access to a supervisor and to an executive dir ector for consultation. In child abuse one of the temptations sitting at it from this side would be to say, let's have specialists out there and they'll really know what they're doing.

The problem with that is as we get into the child abuse area we're finding such a large number of cases that may not present as child abuse, but as the worker gets further into the situation and is more skillful in detecting underlying causes, we're finding it in so many of the cases that we really have no choic e but to develop the skills of detection and initial treatment, or activity with a case in our general workers.

We empha size training throughout and I think if we could lay out all the people who have skill and expertise in this area, it would form a sort of hierarchy with the more skilled and experienced, teaching those at the next level down. We know there is a lot of training and worker devlopment in the field, but the individual cases don't sort themselves out on first blush so easily into different specialties. So you have to have a combination of general worker , and then access to more specializ ed knowledge. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: From what I hear the Min ister saying, I believe that she's talking about specialization along with the generic worker and I certainly don't disagree with that. Wha t I'm not getting the feeling about is that anyone is really trying to deal with the specialization and I hope that the review committee will be looking at that area so that th ere isn't just one coordina tor, one consultant to be dealing with it, but when I look at the numbers in some of the agencies, certainly there could be three or four in one area, four or five in another , certain ly. HON. M.

SMITH: In a system where there are some things centralized and some that are decentralized, it's important to sort out what is better done at which level. From our point of view, we have the coordina tors in some of the special areas, at the provincial level. We have a coordi nator , for example, of child abuse at the city level.

We have also put in a case study and a management study to sort out some of the workloads and the staff ratios for the different types of cases, and to sort out management issues in the sense that we can help agencies learn from one anoth er , perhaps the best way to build in a good process so that the field worker does have adequate supervision and that difficult cases are reviewed by the executive director.

We require permanency planning within a certain time frame and will be undertaking periodic review of cases. lt's a question of some functions being left at the centre and some devolved to the re sponsi bili ty of the com muni ty boards. The commu nit y boards have community representation on them and then they hire trained professionals. Part of being a profess ional is having specific skills and experience. lt's also the development of judgment, where you can sort out what you are able to deal with and what is beyond you.

So, really , we are rel ying on people making professional judgments appropria te to what job they hold in the agency and try to build in some checks and balances and accou ntabil ity patterns. But they will vary somewhat from agency to agency. Executive dir ectors and presidents meet regularly and certainly they exchange a lot of information about how each group is handling particular types of problems. I think at this stage there's probably some wisdom in a fair bit of diversit y, because there is no one pattern that matches every commun ity. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Could the Minister inform me if all the supervisors - in that the majority of the people in the agencies that are dealing with people and with the front line social workers - are they all social workers? Are the supervisors all social workers? HON. M. SMITH: In general, if there are any para­ professionals in the system, they would be working at the front line with careful supervision by either a BSW or MSW with experience.

There may be some people with somewhat comparable training and experience such as a degree in psychol ogy and experience in a related field, but the supervisors - I guess we would call professional - have professional training. MRS. G. HAMMOND: They're all social workers, you were saying? HON. M. SMI TH: Well, I said some may be psychologists with similar training but by far the majority would be BSW or MSW's. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Did I see during the past year an advertisement for an executive dir ector at one of the agencies? HON. M. SMITH: I understand that Central did advertise for a new ED. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Did they hir e someone, and if so, who is it? HON. M. SMITH: They have an acting at the moment. As I unde rstand it, they haven 't completed their int erviewing or recruitment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, going back to the Minister's response to me this month, I had asked a 1336

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 question with respect to the facilities available for abused children, for example, foster homes , group homes, level-four beds, and homemaker services. The Minister responded by indicating there are presently approximately 1,400 foster homes and 45 group homes and centres with 502 beds ava ilab le throughout the province . Is that an increase or a decrease in foster homes and group homes? HON. M. SMITH: We will search to see whether we have some precise answer. We believe it's in the same neighbourhood of what was there before. MR. G.

MERCIER: There would appear to be approximately the same number as it existed in previous years. HON. M. SMITH: There are about the same number of children in care. The number of foster homes is substantially the same. There 's been some build-up of special needs foster homes. MR. G. MERCIER: Taking that answer into context with the information the Minister distributed on residential care funding which shows in a comparison from April 1, 1985, to April 1, 1986 , a decrease, a reduction of 79 beds , and with the increase in abuse cases, where are these children being kept? HON. M.

SMITH : We do have some data, October'85 over October'84, that I think gives the general pattern. Foster homes, including regular rates , special rate in support homes, were at $5.87 and are now in October '85 at $7.04. We have the cumulative rather than the broken down data . While my staff are leafing through the stats book , maybe we can go on and come back when they've found the . . . MR. G. MERCIER: There is a significant decrease in the Level 4 homes. Could the Minister indicate where that decrease has occurred? HON. M. SMITH: The general shift from Level 4 beds has gone into special rate foster care.

From 1984-86, over a two -year period , MacDonald Youth Services went from 52 to 24, a reduction of 28, again because agencies weren't placing youngsters there. In the 1985-86 period, Knowles went down six and Marymound went down six, and Children's Home sold a home that had six, so there were 18 in the 1985-86. We think we're at a fairly stable level for the Level 4, but we'll be watching closely the demand pattern. MR. G. MERCIER: That reduction in Knowles and Marymound because of a government decrease in funding for them, was it not? HON. M.

SMITH: In fact, the Knowles and Marymound six and six , or total of 12, the Winnipeg agencies were not buying those by choice, but the Indian agencies were, so in fact each of those agencies now has six beds being purchased by the Indian agencies. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder if the Minister could explain the statements then, that were reported at the end of last August, to the effect that government cutbacks are resulting in a shortage of space for severely disturbed chi ldren . Mr.

Clay Witherspoon , serv ices director of the Marymound School said , " I strong ly suspect there 's a bunch of kids on the street that shouldn 't be." And Charles Meltzer , the executive director of the Knowles Centre said , "The cutbacks are com ing at a time when more problem teenagers are needing treatment," and indicated that because of the lack of facilities kids end up wandering the streets or are in holding facilities like Seven Oaks. Mr. Meltzer referred to the loss of funding for six of his 30 beds as of September 30 , 1985.

All of these facilities specialize in long-term intensive treatment centres for children considered to have the most severe behaviour and emotional problems. I would ask the Minister if this is the case , how does she reconcile these stat ements with the action in, what I believe she said , in changing the emphasis to the spec ial rate foster home? HON. M.

SMITH: I think what we're observing here is an historical pattern where the child welfare system was , in a sense, driven or serviced by the agencies tha t provided a type of care and , in a sense, the beds were there and there were no options so that 's where children went. Now what we said was that the new agencies would be responsible for developing the indiv idual plans for each youngster and they would have available to them more choices. In other words, they could fund a proctor or a full-time parent in what I'm calling these foster settings with special rates.

In some cases, the child could be placed back in their home with a child care worker helping to train the parents how better to get along with the children or provide them extra supports. Because these options were available to the workers, they in fact were not selecting the agency beds. Again , I guess I can understand agencies who have operated in the past.

By this I mean the agencies that service the child and family agencies, thin king that they were doing the best possible and should go on expanding; but in fact we think the best determiner of what the needs are in the system is the workers and the agencies who are dealing with the individua l young people and planning for them.

If the preferred plans pointed to an increased need for the high level care, we would consider expanding there, but the demand pattern has shifted and we feel that the decision is better made on the ground by the worker dealing with the individual, rather than by us saying that there's some magic ratio of levels of bed that happens to match the agencies that are out there offering it .

In the particular agencies , I can imagine they might think there 's a great demand that is unmet , but we've been through the new agencies, certainly identifying a lot more young people , and to date the pattern of usage seems to be following the pattern we expected. The Seven Oaks situation is a little different because it isn 't a long-term placement; it's a shorte r term situation. 1337 Most of the treatment centres that used to give residential care have now shifted some of their programs to children still at home or they're offering

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 proctor parent service . We found that for the most part they've been quite willing to play a very helpful and cooperative role in providing a greater mix of options for treating young people in need . MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister satisfied or of the view that children are receiving better treatment in the facilities that they are now going to than they wer e going to these longer-term facilities? HON. M. SMITH: Well, that's a question that I guess I could argue one side or the other, but I think my opinion in this should come secondary to the people who are working with the children .

When the group home treatment mode developed rapidly ther e was a lot of - I remember, being involved at sort of second­ hand with it 15-and-so years ago. It offered a lot of hope to people, the idea that you could offer children the kind of support they needed and the treatment and the protection and all in a group home and that the staff would be able to give them the personal support and the psychological help that they needed .

I think for some youngsters that still may be the preferred mode, but there were a lot of children who stayed in those homes and who eventually left them , some running, for whom the social workers were not completely satisfied that they offered all the answers. There seemed to be a shift in emphasis to a more personalized care for a child, particular for the under 12's in more like a family-style home . That's when the mode of practice started to shift somewhat. Again, I don't feel complacent about any mode of dealing with youngsters in need.

I think the jury is open in terms of what the mode of practice is going to be in the future. I think the best that we can do is to try to train people who work carefully, evaluate their work , get good feedback from them and help the system to revolve according to the best insights of the day. I feel confident that there 's a lot of very careful systematic work going into trying to deal with these issues, and I think some downsizing of the group home treatm ent care was appropriate .

Now, as we're moving into a newer era where we seem to be having more disturbed adolescents , we may see some shift in the other direction . Again , I think the best decision-maker and monitor of that is the person in the field and their supervisors who do have to take responsibility on a daily-weekly basis for the well-being and improvement, or the opposite , decline of the young person. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Ministe r indic ate what that increase in foster homes was again from October '84 to October '85? HON. M. SMITH: That was just a Winnipeg number.

My number crunchers are working very hard over here to put together some tables for you so we will distribut e those as soon as they're ready . MR. G. MERCIER: Perhaps the Minister cou ld ind ica te what percentage of those increases in the foster homes were foster homes for abused children. It was indic ated last fall that Seven Oaks was being overtaxed because there weren 't enough foster homes for abused teenagers. HON. M. SMITH: We don't designate or count the foster homes in that way. We give the choice of options to the agencies, the individual workers and the superv isors .

They designat e what is the best match for the youngster so we don 't have them broken up into those kinds of groupings. The foster care families that are on the specia l rates that are doing overtime the more skilled fost er parents or the ones that are willing to take on mor e difficult youngsters do tend to becom e specialists of this sort but they aren't designated foster parents for child abuse per se. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chai rman , I think it would be very important for the agencies to know how many foster homes they had availab le for abused children and that would have to be classed by two, into infants and teenagers , and different classificat ions of that sort . Surely, that is information that should be readily at hand . If you don 't have it at hand and you have an emergency, then where do you go? You have nowhere to go. HON. M. SMITH: Well , I think th is bears out the fact that we 've put at the local level the design of the service delivery within certain parameters and according to certain standards.

The agencies know; they certainly have the list and know at first-hand the stock of resources that they have. We will be collecting more and more of this data as we build up our computer system , our information system ; but as the member knows, wh en you 're phasing-in computerized collection systems, you have to do it in a phased way. At this point in time, that detail of data sits at the agency level. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure that you need a computer to be able to do this.

Could the Minister indicate what coordination there is between agencies wit h resp ect to the availability of fost er homes? It would appear that obviously there is a much greater need in the Northwest and in the Central Agencies for foster homes. It would be interesting to know , for example, whether an agency is confined to using a foster home within its bounda rie s, what degree of cooperation is there with other agencies in the city. There may very well be areas of the city that have lesser problems but who do have people prepared to provide foster homes for certain situations .

From what I have heard and the people I've talked to, I'm not sure there is any coordination that's existing and that may be putting a great deal of pressure on the two agencies I've named , the Northwest and Centra l, to attempt to provide foster homes for the greater number of difficult situations which they have . HON. M. SMITH: I now have the number of foster hom es year over year : April '85 we were at 1,200; March '86 at approx imately 1,400. There was at the time of regiona lization an agreement worked out among the agencies to coord inate on the foster home supp ly.

Ther e's a lot of tra ding back and forth and that is also true in the rural areas. 1338 We've put two foster home finders into the Central and Northwest Agenci es; two each, so that's four and

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 more people to assist them with foster home location in their area but there is a coordination agreement for trading over boundaries. MR. G. MERCIER: How many foster homes have been used by Northwest , outside of its boundaries? HON. M. SMITH: We don't have that statistic. MR. G.

MERCIER: It's one thing to accept the general, all-embracing statement about all of this cooperation and coordination, but I'd like to see the hard facts and to see whether in fact there really is the coordination and utilization of homes outside of the boundary , because I tend to believe with the kind of system that's being set up, the top priority is to look after your area when really there should be, in a lot of these areas, a greater concern for the whole communi ty.

I wonder, does the Minister have available or can she obtain for the committee some statistics to indicate the number of foster homes that each agency has used outs ide of its boundaries . HON. M. SMITH: We can obtain that, not tonight though . It'll take us a bit longer . There are some problems in maintaining a foster home network that result from just changing times. We are monitoring it and we're doing what we can to promote the development of foster homes , but some of the reasons for the changing pattern are that there 's more women working and they're less willing or able to take children.

There is the fear that they may be accused of abuse . That's a reality, now that we are repo rting abuse and trying to deal with it. A person who 's been abused and lived with that type of situation doesn't just get over it overnight . There's no magic treatment that can wipe the slate clean , and sometimes these youngst ers themselves are abusive or make accusations of abuse . I suppose sometimes we can never ignore the possibility that the accusation might be accurate, so foster parents do accept a more difficult responsibility these days.

We are having more troubled adolescents and adolescents are always - not always - but in general more difficult to manage in a foster family . These factors are related to a lot of other social changes going on and as we monitor what's going on - we may not have just the precise numbers that the membe r is wanting , an instantaneous recall here - but we do pick up the trends and plan ahead or try to keep flexibility in the system to better meet the changing need . MR. G.

MERCIER: Will the review committee be considering - in dealing with this whole child abuse area - the facilities that are available for abused children? HON. M. SMITH: The review program or the review terms of reference is focusi ng primarily on the reporting and multidisciplinary - the system interface - and the system way of making decisions about abused children. The issue of appropriate treatment over the longer term is one that is evolving throughout the system .

I repeat that when we read national material, we find that they all seem to be one or two steps behind where we are, in term s of once you've identified the situation , what do you do about it? We have some longer term treatment programs in place , but a foster home would not be expec ted to provide all the resource. They ' re matched to the individual child 's needs and they 're an important resource, but sometimes it has to be combined with counselling and other treatment. We' ve been working quite hard to build the whole continuum of service in this area . MR. G. MERCIER : Mr.

Chairman, I think the availability of facilities is an important part of dealing with the whole problem, and hopefully, it will come up and submissions will be made to the reviewers with respect to that matter. Mr. Chairman , I had asked the Minister about the increase in caseload for workers and certainly the allegations tha t excessive caseloads have resulted in workers leaving their jobs over the past year-and-a­ half or two years. Could the Minister ind icate what sort of turnover there has been in staff with respect to the, particularly the front -line social workers? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN , D.

Scott : Madam Minister. HON. M. SMITH : We don't have the detail on worker turnover . What we do have , in terms of the case load , when we split the larger agency, we prorate the staff based on the traditi onal caselo ad pattern in a particular area. Then we made some additions - everyone got a preventive worker and there was a little loading on central and northwestern whe re we knew the problem s were more extensive.

Then, in the middle of last year, we did a very quick review of caseloads and put an additional 38 staff years into the system , again, appor tionin g them according to where the pressure was greatest. At the same time, we put a longer term case study and management study in place to be done by Brad McKenzie and to be com pleted late r this summer , which would give us criteria for appropriate workloads . Because we've shifted from havi ng just the sort of protection cases, to having a lot of family cases and counselling at the earlier stages of difficu lty, our old workload criteria were not sufficien t.

So what we are working out with the agencies and through that consultant study is acceptab le caseload standards . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , does the Minister not have any information with respect to staff turnover during the last two years? Surely any organization of this size with personnel people would have that type of information . 1339 HON. M. SMITH: I remind the member that we have devolved service delivery respons ibility to the agencies.

Now we go - and I'm sure all of us have been - to several annual general meetings and we get their reports and are certainly in monthly comm unicatio n with them and there has never been suggested that there 's any major staff turnover problem . Knowing our agencies, if that were an emerging problem , we would hear about it, because they are quite frank in telling us what types

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 of problems are happening to them. In a major reorganization of this sort, there are bound to be some people who counsel themselves out of the new work situation. I think the transition and the redeployment of the numbers of staff that we've actually managed to redeploy and have settle in fairly well is remarkable more for the few numbers of people who have opted out and the general peacefulness with which the redeployment has taken place . There is new staff in each agency , becau se each agency had some vacant staff spots to fill.

As the resourcing has improved, they've also had more resources for more staff . So there are new faces out there . There is new blood in each agency. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I have certainly heard from many people in the field that, during the past particularly last two years, many many experienced workers and many people experienced in child abuse have left out of frustration. I would be very surprised if that had not come to the attention of the Minister or her senior staff. HON. M.

SMITH: I think it's recognized that probably child abuse and child welfare work is among the most difficult and trying work that there can be. There's always been some turnover. As I say, we have been doing a steady increase in the resourcing, but it would be foolish, I think, just to throw a great deal of extra resource into the system without building on a fairly careful base. It takes time to build an organization and to build into it the kind of appropriate standards and workloads.

As I say, with the review that was done last fall and with the more detailed one under way now, we feel that the workload standards and all aren't too different. Some people may not adjust well to change or being expected to deliver service in a slightly different way, and I think it's probably healthy that there's a fair bit of movement in a system as large as this. No director has identified it as a major issue in their particular agency. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I had asked the Minister a question with respect to what she was going to do to replace previous specialists in abuse and foster home finding, adoption, etc. The Minister responded by saying: "As you may be aware, the volun tary Child and Family Service Agencies determine how to allocate their staff. " It raises in my mind, Mr. Chairman, a question about the relationship between the department and the agenc ies.

Is the department not there to at least - you know, when you consider all of these agencies are being fully funded by the provinci al taxpayer - does the governmen t not have an obl igation to set some basic rules and guidelines and procedures for the agencies which should be followed? Is it completely up to the agencies to determine how to allocate their staff? It really sounds like a b it of a rudderless ship when you describe it in that manner. HON. M.

SMITH: Just back on the turnover, we've just completed negotiations with the workers, and it wasn't a big issue in the contract negotiations, that is the turnover or burnout issues . Back to the question of the relationship of the provincial department to the individual agencies , there is a change in the way the agencies must work compared to any way that they operated before , in that there are more variable types of supports available to them . So when they make a decision, they don 't have just the decision about whether to remov e a child or leave them at home.

They also have the option of putting in counselling, parent aid, homemakers, arranging special day care and so on. The need from agency to agency for fost er care, supervisors and recruiters has varied. Each agency has certainly focused a lot on it, but Central and Northwest particularly. As I say, we've added two extra foster home searchers, as it were, for each agency based on the experience they're having. I went into the child abuse aspec t at some length earl ier on, and said that each agency has a main person responsible for that area.

Some of them also have specialists , some who 've been added specifically from our end . They are building their mix of sta ff according to the need pattern in their particular area. There is no formula, other than that the basic standards of practice must be observed. Now our monitoring, I think, is something that we're working on. The re wasn't a very strong pract ice in the past , so we are to a certain extent building that capacity . We didn't choose the model whereby government would deliver everything directly and run it centrally.

We believe that there is an advantage in having the community involved and making those decisions. For one thing, what we're finding is that, as the boards draw in representatives from the comm unit y, we're getting a lot of spinoff in creative activity groups for young moms, second-hand cloth ing depots, teenage drop-in s, teaching baby-sitting, grandparenting, groups for young moms. The typ e of groups that are evolving are coming out of the felt need in the community, and a lot of volunteer help and donations and so on from the local com munity are occurring.

So the very pattern of delivering service is expanding the impact of the money and the staff in those agenci es far beyond wha t it used to be or cou ld be from a straight top-down service delivery. Now provinces across the country have opted for different patterns of service . B.C. and Saskatchewan have opted for a comp letely centra lized system. Ontario and Manitob a have gone for the combination of the centra l direction policy and funding and monitoring with decentralized service delivery . Alberta is in the process of decentralizing the service delivery.

When we reg ion alized in Winnipeg , there wer e agreements made . Remember we went through long consultative committe e meetings on each issue in the service delivery mix. We didn't start out with a fixed idea as to how best to handle adoption or foster home care or child abuse. We worked with these larg e commit tees, and they in fact worked out agreements as to how to coordinate adoption , how to coordinate foster home care , and how to coord inate child abuse services. What I think we're seeing now is the natural type of growing pains that occur as systems settle in and develop .

Naturally, some agencies are going to be a little more effective in their ability to coo rdinate than others, but the basic structures and processes are ther e 1340

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 and the monthly meetings of the presidents and executive directors gives them a form where they can addr ess issues that emerge; and our relationsh ip, through our provincial coordina tors and child day care director , gi ves us a point of con tact. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister satisfied that this type of system is re sulting in the most efficient use of public money? HON. M. SMITH: When we combine the efficiency and the qual ity of service and the potential to build healthier communit ies, I think it's the dir ection to go. I think that the fine tuning will always be there.

There's nothing stays fixed and permanent in this particular field. Knowing that, anyone who works in the social service field gets used to the fact that you do the best you can with what you know at the time, but that you must commit yourself to periodic evaluations. Whe n we did the reorg anization, we made a commitment to do an eval uation at the end of three years. So that will be coming around next fiscal year, 1988-89. All these issues will get a thorough review. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is there a coord ina tor in each - you indic ate in your letter - well, each agency, you say, in the province has identified adoption especial ly. The statistics that I asked for, that you provided to the committee, which show the number of annual adoptions dropping from a high in 1976 of 1,4 89 down to 1985 - 679, and there were only 653 in 1984. Is that just att rib utable to a la ck of sufficient childr en? As I understand it, the waiting period for adoptions is now in the range of some six to seven years. Is that for someone who wants the normal hap py, healthy infant?

I wonder if the Min ister could ind icate whether she has any comments on the reduction in the number of adoptions and the length of the present waiting list for adoption. Does that all go through a central registry for adoptions or does each agency put up for adoption the childr en av aila bl e within their own physical bounda ries? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, it is an important issue because I think we all realize that an early adoption and a sound adoption can be a very happy solution to what's a difficult problem. What is happening is the pattern of people giving childr en up for adoption has radically altere d.

The figure in 1976, just 10 years ago, was that we were getting about 1, 000 youngs ters a year given up for adoption. This last year we had 12 0. it's a radical shift. We require permanency planning for all wards and all under-two year old young sters go on the central registry, so we're doing the very best we can to get an early satisfactory adoption as soon as we can. MR. G. MERCIER: All children do go on the central registr y that are up for adoption? it's a centralized system; it's not a localized system, is it? HON. M.

SMITH: All under two go on the central registry and many over two, but it's re quir ed for the under-two year olds, so they have access to the whole province. 1341 MR. G. MERCI ER: The present waiting time for adoption for the person who wants a supposedly health y, normal infant child, is that about six or seven years now? HON. M. SMITH: lt is going up because of these numbers. The numbers of people wanting to adopt isn't shifting as quickly as the number of babies available. Some of them do become foster parents or special foster parents, so there is some shift there. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, in my letter to the Minister I had asked her about the number of childr en of Native descent waiting for adoption, and the Minister had indicated in this letter that as of February 1986, 23 childr en under 2 years of age and 70 over 2 were awaiting adoption placement. This includes 12 Native childr en under 2 and 55 over 2. Of the 67 Native children, 17 have physical or mental disabil ities or are part of a sibling group. So of the total of 93 children awaiting adoption, as of Febru ary, some 67 were Native - 12 under 2 and 55 over 2.

The moratorium on the adoption of Native children, I guess would now be three or four years of age. Keeping in mind the Minister's earlier comments that she made, and with which I would concur and I think most people would concur, that an early adoption is the best possible thing for a child. Can she explain why 67 Native childr en were awaiting adoption placement? When you go back to the time when the moratorium was declared, there were just in the range of 85, 90 HON. M. SMITH: Ninety-five. MR. G.

MERCIER: . . . 95 - I accept that figure; it's certainly in that range - and three or four years later we still have 67 awaiting adoption, and at the same time we have a waiting list of people who are dying to adopt a child, are waiting six to seven years to adopt a child, many of whom I have talked to, and I'm sure members of the committee have talked to over the years, who would be more than pleased, would be delig hted to take one of these children.

Can the Minister explain why this program certainly appears to be failing in what should be the hig hest prior ity, the best interest of these children? - which should be in the first place allowing them to liv e in a home with paren ts, permanent parents, and appreciating - and when I say that, Mr. Chairman - appreciating the fact that it's well recognized and it is important that childr en of Nativ e descent be made aware of their backgrou nd, be fully informed, and I think most people try to do now, not to simply, not to remove them entir ely from whence they came and from the traditions of their background.

But does it not make some common sense, when you have this list of people - the Minister might in fact indi cate how many people are on that waiting list - how many people are on that waiting list for adoption now, waiting for these children? Would it not make some common sense to allow some of these Nativ e children to be adopted? HON. M. SMITH: I'd just like to put some of the numbers on the table and explain the perspective that

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 we have. The moratorium went in and there were well over 95 youngs ters waiting. Now, the process of adoption takes time, and the childr en avai lable are not always the ones that the adoptive parents will accept. The number change has gone, remembering that it's not the same group always that are waiting except for some difficult to adopt children. There is a turn over. lt was at 95 the first year. lt went down as low as 67. If's now at about 70. The Nativ e younsters, our guidelines do not forbid adoptions out of the Native community.

They require though a best effort search for a Native family . The permanency planning process that was put into the new act requires that a permanency plan be made as quickly as possible, and is under constant review to keep pressure on the workers in the field, to expedite the permanent placement of each indi vidual child. So the system factors are there to speed up the placement, but it still remains true that the young sters that adopt ive parents want are not necessa rily the ones available.

If's certai nly not our desire to have a lot of youngsters waiting for extended periods of time. lt may be over time, we can bring that number down. I'm not quite sure how low it will go because there's always going to be some who are waiting, but I'd certainly look forward to it shortening. MR. G. MERCIER: How many people are on the waiting list waiting for chi ldren to be adopted by them? HON. M. SMITH: Ab out 1, 586. We do have the breakdown of the families waiting and of the children, and the workers are trying to match.

But some of the childr en who end up on the waiting list are difficult to place youngsters. MR. G. MERCIER: Wel l, you're indicating, of the 67 Nativ e children, 17 have physical or mental disabil ities or are part of a sibling group. lt may be that the physical or mental disabiliti es may make it more difficult for them to be adopted. The sibling group maybe wouldn't be a problem if it's more than three or four children. I think a fair number of those 1, 500 people would be glad to take a brother and sister.

What is the status of the remaining 50 who have no physical or mental disabili ties or are part of a sibling group? Of this group, what are their prospects? How long does this whole procedure that the Minister and the government set up for adoption of Nativ e childr en take, when we have to go through the Band and relatives and everyone else? How long do es that procedure take for one child? HON. M. SMITH: We have made available a form of subsidized adoption in very special cases, and that covers siblings or disabled youngsters. So in a sense the 17, there is extra support available should a family be willing.

For the other youngsters, we have the guideli nes in terms of where the series of homes that must be looked for to find cultural compatibil ity if possible, which I'm sur e you're familiar with, and we'll distribu te th ose. The message we send out through the system is to place the chil dren as soon as possible. The permanancy planning should provide a structured way to review that regularly and keep the pressur e on the system. There never used to be any standards as to how long a youngster would remain unadopted. Some chil dren never are adopted, but we'r e trying to shorten tha t list as much as we can. MR.

G. MERCIER: Is the Min ister prepared to issue a directive to the agencies to the effect that, if these childr en presently in care are not adopted by the end of August of this year, that they would be made available for adoption to other than by Native people? Is she prepared to do that, gi ve them two mo nths and otherwise, make them available? HON. M. SMITH: Nativ e childr en are available to non­ Native families, if the agency has gone through the steps of searc hing for an appropriate placement within a reasonable time frame.

One of the problems or some of the problems we're having are connected to the underfunding issue of the Ind ian child welfare agencies. You may have read something about the recent audit where it 's been determined that something appears to have been happening at the staff level in DIAND in Manitoba, where the agencies were not being funded accord ing to the original agreement. That severely strapped some of the capacit y of the agencies to care for youngsters. In fact, we have 222 status Indian famili es that are waiting for adoptive childr en.

This desire to adopt is not just with the non-lndian, but Indian Affairs won't fund any subsidized adoptions even though it's in our act. So sometimes it's a poverty issue, I guess you could say. lt's certa inly one of the factors. Or in the case of the youngster with very pressing needs, it is quite a financial burden for a family to take without some extra help. MR. G. MERCIER: Ho w long does this process take, that the government has set up, on an average case? HON. M. SMITH: lt's about four to five months for the steps to be gone through. MR. G. MERCIER: Forty-five months? HON. M. SMITH: Four to five. MR. G.

MERCIER: The Member for Kirkfield Park may ask a question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just wanted to follow up on that question. If the goverment hasn't funded - and we're talking about the Federal Government - and the Native families that you'r e referring to can't afford to adopt without subsidization, are other famili es then looked at, or are these childr en just out of luck? HON. M. SMITH: No, they are looked at.

Part of the guideline was to ensure that the options were reviewed, but within a reasonable time frame, because our prime concern was that the child not be left waiting without a permanent placement ind efinitely . So it's that either party can alert us that they think enough time has been gone through and that a placement is appropria te. 1342

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 MRS. G. HAMMOND: When you're referring to either party can alert, and I'm still referring to Native children, who is the either party that we're talking about? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, I may have got confused with all the methods that we're using in the system. The permanency planning requirement of the agencies is that they compl ete the planning for the individua l child within a time frame, and it's during that time frame that the checking out of the different options for the Native child is accomplished. So we keep the pressure on in terms of time by that permanency planning requirement.

Now that doesn't mean that the agencies are always successful and that's where we' re get ting some mismatch between the people who wish to adopt and the child ren available to be adopted. MRS. G. HAMMOND: One of the complaints that had been made earlier that I'd heard was that the social workers in the field, or whoever is doing the assessing, because of the workload, didn't have the same time to do proper assessments, and that was one of the reasons that adoptions were also being held up. Is that a factor? Has it been a factor? HON. M.

SMITH: Unless we aren't connecting on what the probl em is, as the children come up on the registry in a very strict sort of rotational time frame, the studies are done. Sorry, it's the families that come up for review, to see if there's a child that's an appropria te match, and those studies are done. Again, if there is a specific concern that the member would like to alert us to, we'll check into it, but the ones that we have on our registry are reviewed regu larly . MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm not sure if you've done it in Manitoba, but do the agencies advertise at all for adoptive parents?

At one time in Ontario - and they may still be doing it - they would put a picture of either a child or a group of childr en, a famil y, in the paper and give a short description and advertise for adoptive parents. I was just wondering if they do it in Manit oba? HON. M. SMITH: lt has been done in the past. it's not currently being done. We put our heads together, we're not just sure why the practice was discontinued, but a couple of years ago it was done for a wh ile.

I should say that Indian agencies have actually placed a great many Native childr en for adoption or in permanent homes, sometimes with the extended famil y. There really has been a very fine effort on their part, and I guess this whole situation that's been brought to light is the result of the audit that shows they've systematically been underfunded, according to the original agreement. I feel particularly sad and angry about it because I think the effort being made by the In dian Child Welfare Agencies deserves an enormous amount of respect and support.

I think it's really tragic that, in a sense, it's being underfunded at its most criti cal stage of development; so we're hopeful that the bringing to light of this problem through the audit will lead to better negotiations and better resourcing. 1343 MRS. G.

HAMMOND: When I was talking about the adverti sements, it wasn't partic ularly Native children, but there were a number of childr en with special needs, and whether they were behaviour problems, or childr en that had a disability of some kind, had a special health probl em that would need special care, and they advertised in such a way that they were looking for a family with possibly older childr en, with younger children, with no children.

They were rather specific in a general way, and I wonder if the Minister might not consider that an area because there may well be people - and I'm sure there are in a community - that might be willing to take on some of these children who are not seemingly able to be adopted. HON. M. SMITH: I think it is an idea that we will review. We have certainly been promoting and encouraging advertising for foster home care, and we are finding an increasing number of foster homes.

Agai n, not enough, but we are finding more because of this special rate care that we have available, who are willing to take youngsters with special needs. I just wanted to clarify, earlier when we were talking about the moratorium. lt was a moratorium on out-of­ province adoption, not on white or non-Na tive adoption of Native children.

Dir ective 18 though, which set out the order of search for appropriate home was the means by which we assured the Native people that a best effort would be made to find a culturally appropri ate home, but it wasn't an either/or, it was that this best­ effort search must be made and, if no home could be found, then a non- Native home would be considered. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'd like to ask the Minister about the Child and Family Services at the Interim Guideline, No. 34.

No. 2 talks about "The child abuse coord ina tor sh all be con sulted on all agency child abus e inv estigations and shall be involved in all major decisions such as apprehension." If a case was reported of a baby being threatened and the coordinator or someone else is not around, is the social worker not able to take it upon themselves to apprehend? HON . M. SMI TH: No, the social worker could apprehend. There would be a backup plan or a backup person available if the coordinator was not.

The purpose of having a coordi nator is to ensure that that function is carried out and if the coord ina tor was not to be ava ilabl e, someone would be delegated with that respo nsibilit y. The professional respon sibility of the worker is to put the child's safety to the fore and they could apprehe nd. Then it would be the longer-term plan that would be worked through. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just specifically dealing with babies, and I'm talking, I guess, under two, what happens when someone is suggesting that there is abuse in that case?

Do they watch and assess or do they apprehend immediately and then try and find out what is happen ing? HON. M. SMITH: First, the social worker would take the child for medical atten tion and examination. Then the police would be called. Then an interview would proceed with the family or the relev ant persons. Then a recommendation or decision would be made.

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 Remember we tal ked earl ier about the Multidi sciplina ry Committee. Because it's the legal responsibility of the Child and Family Service worker, they're the one that has to be accountable in the courts and so on for what action they've taken so that they are responsible for the final decision. That's where we were running into some difficulty where we found that there were differences of opinion between the different profes sionals but no clear way of resolving those.

I guess we had assumed that if there was a serious disagreement that a professional would report but we're finding that that assumption needs strengthening. This protocol requi res that if any professional involved in a child abuse case disagrees with a plan or decision and reason to think the child is not safe, the onus is on them to report to the Supervisor in the agency, the Executive Dire ctor , the Child Abuse Coordinator or the Dir ector of Child and Family Services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is there any hesitation on the part of a social worker because of the possibility of being sued for apprehen sion? HON. M.

SMITH: They can only be sued for malice so in a sense, they basically hav e protection; they make their best judgment. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What kind of insurance, liability or protection do the workers have in the field from being sued? Do they have to supply their own lawyers or would the department look after that? HON. M. SMITH: The workers have legal protection under the act. The agencies carry insurance. Should someone have to go to court, the agency would pay the legal cost. Most of the workers as well are unionized and some of them have another line of protection there. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, just relating to that Native adoptions again, could she indic ate to the committee that since the morato rium, how many Native children have been adopted by non- Native parents? HON. M. SMITH: We're checking up to see whether we keep our statistics in that form. When I have an answer, yes or no, and a number, I'll give it to you. But if we could go on with any other . . . MR. G. MERCIER: Well, I would think in view of the special proced ur es in legislation that that would be available.

On June 11 of this month, Winnip eg Council of Tr eaty and Status Indi ans annou nced plans to create emergency shelters in the inner city for abused children. Council Chairman, Mr. Young said emergency protect ion for abused is at a crisis point in the city. Can the Minister ind icate whether that matter has been reviewed with the Winn ipeg Council of Treaty and Status Indians? Are they exaggerating the situation or do they not deal through the existing agencies? HON. M.

SMITH: lt is true that as we work through the network of services that are needed by particularly the Native youngs ters and particularly in the Nor thwest area, that we will need more services. At present the Winnipeg Receiving Resources is the group that is responsible tor initial emergency care for childr en that are brought into the system. They have a board made up of representatives from the agencies and the Ma Mawi Family Service Centre.

They have identified that there needs to be more Native involvement for that type of emergency care or recei ving function tor Native childr en, and they will recommend to us what the appropriate mode of doing that is. In other words, there's a process in place for identifying the need and building the resource. Now, this other group, as many groups will, sort of sees the need and says well we're going to do it this way.

However, getting funding for it, I guess their proposal or notion can certainly be considered and evaluated, but we have a group and representativ es on it that are going through an orderly process in developing the rec eiving function. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the Minister received the audited statements for the agencies for 1985-86 which would be their first whole year would it not? HON. M. SMITH: They're due July 1s t. So, if we sit over the weekend . . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert is not going to suggest that, I hope. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could that information be provided to the committee then when those are received on July 1s t? HON. M. SMITH: lt's public information. I don't know whether we'll still be in, but we will insure that the member receives copies. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the budget for the review committee? HON. M. SMITH: Thir ty one thousa nd, five hundr ed is the dir ect cost. There's been two researchers seconded and a support secreta ry, and then we'll pay the rent and then this operating cost. MR. G. MERCIER: Will they be advertising their where abouts, office, phone number , to receive submissions?

Will they be - (Int erject ion) - HON. M. SMITH: Yes, but I will repeat, it's 3rd Floor, 1200 Portage. When they have a phone number and a room number, they will advertise it. MR. G. MERCIER: Ju st on another matter, Mr . Chairman, the Min ister, I think, is on the same mailing list tha t I am with respect to the Child Protection Centre and their efforts to establish in Manitoba a national abuse centre. The latest letter I received ind icates tha t a copy of a letter to Mr .

Epp, the Minister of Health ind icating that they are now applying to the National Welfare Grants Program for assessment of a model for the proposed centre where their ul tima te goal will be to apply for a three to five year demonstration proje ct for a national abuse centre in Winnipeg. I believe tha t would be very appropria te with some of the specialis ts 1344 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 and people who deal with child abuse in Manitoba. Has the Minister officially supported that application? HON. M. SMITH: I have not been consulted. I haven't seen the application. I think from what I have heard, sort of, well the first time I'v e heard specifics, otherwise it's been second hand through the media. I would question whether the prime need is in the medical emergency treatment end of the system as distinct from the treatment in field worker training.

I think funding of demonstration projects in terms of long term follo w­ up, treatment of famili es, preven tion; research into that, I think, would be a very high priority in the system, but I think it is a delusion because I don't know all the elements of the proposal. lt's hard for me to evaluate. I do think there's room for training of medical people, and if the funds were spent for that, so that the medical people, a broader number of them were getting more specialized knowledge , I think that would be helpful. We also need probably in the total system training for police and RCMP and educational people.

So again, it's hard for me to evaluate that particular one. My priorities would have been different from what I know about it, but I have not been consu lted or asked to support it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, I noticed from the beginning of this correspondence that the Minister was being copied with respect to it because obvious ly, I would think, its activities would have to be closely coo rdina ted with what wou ld be going on in the provincial syst em. I wonder if the Min ister would undertake to have her staff perhaps consult with Dr. MacRae and Dr.

Ferguson who have been signing the letters to perhaps have the proposal reviewed in more detail in order to determine whether as a Provincial Min ister she would support the establishment of this project in Winnip eg? HON. M. SMITH: Well, I would appreciate consultation. We don't recall receiving a copy of that letter. lt could have gone astra y.

That rarely happens but it certainly could have happened, but I think consultation would be a good thing because I think the numbers of people int erested in the field are sinc erely interested and it's in all our interests to insure that any money available is wisely spent and spent in the way that will be most cost-effective and most valuable to children in families. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the first letter with respect to this proposal dated March 26, 1986, which enclosed the proposal and an executive

summary, the Minister is noted as having received a copy. They go on in the executive

summary to talk about the purposes of such a national system to analyze problems related to child abuse and neglect. They don't talk and I don't think they have any intention of approa ching this subject from a purely medical perspective. As I understand it, that suggestions based upon a similar national abuse centre in Houston, Texas in the United States where all of the participants and the professionals who deal with child abuse would be involved.

They talk about obtaining sti mula ting research projects in this particular area, national protocols and standards of practice, educational programs to upgrade 1345 the level of professional skills in all discipli nes, to util ize the resou rces of an established interdisciplinary child protection program to serve as a model in the provision of services to abused and neglected children in Canada. And if the Minister's copy has been lost, I'd be glad to give her this to copy.

They have a list of 44 different types of areas that should be looked at in some detai l, all of which seem to me to be very important areas to be looking at, including one that I think has come to atten tion recently. They've pointed out that the Shaken Baby Syndrome - and I recall reading an

article recently about that. I know, from talking to people, it relates to the very serious abuse that a person who shakes a baby can give to that baby, and in actuali ty, in the matter of a few seconds, virtually destroy that child. 1t results in retardation and just about ever ything.

I think to be fair , it can be done intentional ly, certain ly, but it can also be done probably in more cases unintentionally by people acting under great stress. lt seems to me, for example, that particular area alone, if it were fully delved into, if there were an educ ational program, could prevent very serious damage being done to infants. I'm sure that the Minister and people in her department are well aware of it. This is not, in no way as I see this, purely medically orientated. They talk in here exactly about prevention programs and education and registry .

So it would appear to me to be something worth pursuing. Manitoba and Winnipeg certa inly have more than their fair share of specialists and experts and people interested in this particular problem. If the Min ister wants after, I'll be glad to give her these copies. I would tend to think that if the Min ister suppor ted the proposal that it would be very helpful to obtain the funds from this national program for a demonstration project in Winnipeg. HON. M. SMITH: I would welcome a copy. Actually , we'll approach the Child Protection Centre and ask them for a copy.

Many of the elements that you mentioned were ones that I said I thought would really be needed - research and demonstration programs and education. So it sounds to me like there may be a real opportunity here. When we're dealing with multi- agencies and protocols across the country, there will be a fair bit of consultation requir ed, but ! think it's very helpful to have a central group that is initiating and leading the way. So we will read it carefu lly and unde rtake a discussion with the Child Protection Centre on it. MR. G.

MERCIER: There's another aspect to this whole area of child abuse that I referred to earlier this aft ernoon, and that has been raised recently by MARL, the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties. lt's an area that, when the legislation was introduced, I spoke to. I asked the question: if someone is falsely accused of child abuse, how do they rid thems elves of this accusation? There does not appear to be, in the legislation, any remedy for that situation.

MARL refers to three particular incidents, and in speaking to people, it appears that there can be a problem, not in the abuse of childr en that we've been mainly talking about today but in the area of teenagers j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j I

1 1 Thursday, 26 June, 1986 where you can have, for whatever reason, a teenager accusing a parent, for example, of sexual abuse when nothing has happened. Then this whole system which comes into play which, you know, on the one hand, we all acknowledge that it's such an impor tant problem that you have to have it there, but it comes into play against a person who may be falsely accused.

They're right behind the gun, the child is removed from the home, and how do they prove their inno cence? lt seems to me, and I recall - I should go back and look at my speech on this bill - but the suggestion at the very beginning that should there not be - let me put it that way - should there not be some type of forum in which a person who is falsely accused of child abuse can have his or her name cleared of that allegation?

The Min ister, I would expect, has received the submission for rights and li berties, and it's certainly there to be commanded for putting the thought together but it's certa inly not solely theirs. lt has been a comment that has come from a number of sour ces. I wonder if the Minister or her department have given any thought to considering that problem. HON. M. SMITH: Just before commenting on what is a very thorny question, I'd just like to comment that the letter, that was apparently a copy to me, was sent on the 17th of Ju ne, and the earlier letter on April 6 was not ind icated as copied.

So it may be that we wer en't copied before. However, we are happy to have the copy now. I'll correct that last statement then. We're very inter ested in looking at it, though, and we will follow up in the consultation. Back to the registry or the dilemma of how can we deal with child abuse, protect the child and at the same time not abuse the rights of the alleged ab user, the answer is there's no easy answer. The basic reason that there is no easy answer is that when abuse occurs there's rarely a witne ss. If there is a witne ss, it's not always a witness who would not have undivided loyalties.

Therefore, we're also dealing with a case where the victim is usually not able to speak or be consider ed a reliable witness. Some chang es in the federal law, and eve ntually the Manitoba law, I guess, to parallel it, may make it easier to get evidence from a child in that they are talking of using - well, we have an experiment here of using video in the first interview, so you get an immediate observation of a child's behaviour .

There are some techniques that have been developed to try to deduce what has ha ppened to a child, anatomically correct dolls and so on, and observing react ions when different people are brought near the child. But by the nature of that type of evidence and observa tion, there could be many reasons why a child would react in a certain way. So it's got all the problems of a normal court case, with attendant ones as well. Now, the question of abusers being on a regist ry, we have explained several times that th at's often why numbers of abuse cases differ.

The numbers on the registry differ from the numbers of cases reported in the field because there are actually three different levels. There's allegation; allegation that isn't substantiated; there's allegation that isn't substantiated but where there seems to be evidence that makes people nervous and suspect that maybe something has gone wrong. Then there's allegations that have been proven in court. The registry has all of the top group and some of the next group listed.

Now, the procedure to be followed, like the use of the registry and then the procedure to be follo wed either to have a name deleted or to have recorded on it another way of looking at it, if a person has taken treatment, so that at least the registry is up to date. Those are the very issues that we asked a commit tee to revi ew.

They were asked to take on the review 18 months ago and the fact that they haven't yet pull ed together their final recommendations I think ind icates the very comple xity of the problem, because you have the civil rights people on one side, and you have the child protection people on the other. Our bias is in favour of the child, I think quite righ tly, but if we can fine tune and giv e the abuser due protecti on, I think that that's important as well. To date, they tell me that they're arriving at a preference risk system which would allow names to be deleted on an agreed basis. We do have a legal problem.

All child abuse allegations are protection cases under

Part 3 of the act. The files maintained under this

section would be exempt from the Fre edom of Information sect ion in The Child and Family Services Act, because their file is maintained to enforce the law. If clients were allo wed to challenge their names being recorded on a central registry available only to the police and the agencies, all protection records would be vulnerable to legal challenge. Because of that issue, we've taken steps to assure clients that they're notified of a registration. All parents who are investigated are to be informed that they're registered on the regist ry.

In anticipation of this requir ement - again, these are re commenda tions for ho w we are to operate - agencies and their lawyers have been more reluctant to register cases where there was not proofable allegation or remaining serious suspicion. Information of protect ion cases is still accessi ble between agencie s under

Section 76 (3). I've talked about the difference in the total cases inv estigated and those where there's confidence that abuse has occurred. Some are recorded where there's not sufficient evidence to prove neglect or abuse. One of the main groups that causes us great difficulty is with persons who belie ve that physical discipline - well, the group that thinks physical discipline is desirable and permissible, and the group that thinks any physical discipline is really abuse.

We are re quir ed to investigate these cases, particularly if the persons were registered, if we found their name on the registry to begin with. However, there'd be a great cry from the community and maybe from all members of the Legislature, unless the discipline could be described as cruel, so we're into judgment calls in the discipline area. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder if the Minister could ind icate whether her department has any information about the number of clearly false allegations that have been made. Is there any statistical information on that? HON. M.

SM ITH: We are just pas sing out some information on the Provincial Child Abuse Regi stry . In the annual report,

Section 4, Table 15, the second page of it, at the bottom, the Disposition of Childr en, 1346 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 of a total of 646 abuse cases, 223 ended in investigation on ly. Now, that may mean that there was inconclusive evidence. lt doesn't necessarily mean that the report was false. lt would take a non-existent angel to deduce how many of those were false. One potential problem with greater - I don't know whether you'd call it sophistication of childr en, or popularization of the term sex abuse, there may be streetwise youngsters who learn how to use that term. But I guess when we're dealing with it, even if there is a mischievous allegation, there may be a problem of a sort, too.

So at this stage of our kno wledge and understan ding of the problem, we have no choice but to pursue some kind of inv estigation and just realize that we're at the beginning of trying to differentiate. I don't know how we're going to get closer to being accurate. We're certainly willing to take any suggestions. MR. G. MERCIER: One last question. Does the Minister have an answer to that question about the number of Native child ren adopted by non-Native parents? HON. M. SMITH: We'd like just to look into our records and doub le-check, so we'll have that available tomo rrow. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is ten o'clock.

What's your wish? Committee rise. SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order . This

section of the Commit tee of Supply has been considering the Es tima tes of the Department of Munic ipal Affairs. We are now on It em No. 2. (

a) Municipal Board, Salaries ; 2.(

b) Other Expe nditur es. The Member for La Ver end rye. MR. H. PANK RATZ: Mr. Chairman, I still want to be at 1. (e)(2), if I may. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(2) has been passed unless the Minister wants to . . . MR. H. PANKRA TZ: Mr. Min ister, would you allow me another question under 1. (e)(2), please? Mr . Chairman, is that in order at this time? MR. CHAIRMAN: With the consent of the Min ister, it will be all right. MR. H. PANKRATZ: The question I have is Other Expenditures, and I think the Minister ind icated that took care of quite a few studies, if I'm right.

I think you ind icated it was part of a policing study done. Is that right, Mr. Minister? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That reference I made to, I think, that $5,000 figure, that was a question by the Member for Brandon West related to a study done by a consultant. lt had to do with policing costs. Oh, I had indic ated previously it was on policing costs. lt was assessment taxation related. The policing cost study was done by the department and I didn't promise that I would provide reports.

I do have a copy for the critic, the report of the advisory committee on emergency responses and the report on the advisory commit tee of policing. I'd like to table these with the critic. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you. Under which number then would the municipal policing then fall under? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I believe the matter of Police Services Grant is what the member is referring to. Is that the question - the Police Services Grant? MR. H. PANKRATZ: Yes. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Now, that's a little later on. lt would fall under

Section 3.(f). MR. H. PANKRATZ: Oh, very good. Thank you, Mr . Chairman; I'll ask my questions under that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. 2.(a) - the Member for Charle swood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Somewhere in the last little while I've seen a reference to boards of rev isions deal ing with tax appeals, assessment appeals. Where did I see that, Mr. Minister? Can you save me hunting through all this stuff to find it? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, a Court of Revision will come under

section 4 of the Municipal Assessment appropria tion. MR. J. ERNST: Okay, but present ly, then, Mr. Minister it's now coming under the Munic ipal Board, appeals on your assessment? Is that correct? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, that is correct. Appeals from the Court of Revision go to the Municipal Board. MR. J. ERNS T: So the appeals from the Court of Revision go to the Municipal Board as opposed to being stopped at the Board of Revision. Is that correct? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, that's correct. The Munic ipal Board is a final authority on that. MR. J. ERNST: I see.

With respect to the Municipal Board, it's my understan ding, as it relates now to the City of Winnip eg and not necessarily the rest of Manitoba, that the Board of Revision is the end. Is the Minister aware? Or perhaps the Deputy could answer it. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I don't believe that is correct. Last year, Bill 83 was passed in this House which, I believe, provides for uniform procedu res for both Winnip eg and the rest of the province and appeals to the Court of Revision in the City of Winnipeg now are to the Munic ipal Board. 1347 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 MR. J. ERN ST: A further question then with respect to the Municipal Board. Can the Min ister inform the members of the committee whether the Municipal Board at the present time is still the final planning authority for appeals of district plans from the City of Winnipeg? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, it is. MR. J. ERN ST: With respect to that particular item, Mr. Mini ster, the Mini ster of Urban Affairs, I bel ieve, has certain statutory authority built into the act with respect to those same kinds of plans.

Can you advise whether they're in conflict or, in fact, that they may well be removed from the jurisdiction of the Mun icipal Board? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I think what we're doing is talking about two different issues. When it comes to assessment, the Municipal Board is the final authority; when it comes to planning, under the planning districts, the matters can be appealed to the Municipal Board. Wit hin the Ci ty of Winnip eg, thou gh, my understa nding is that the appeals would be made to the Environment Committee. MR. J. ERNST: Mr.

Min ister, I'm now referr ing to not zoning applications or subdivision applications but I'm now refer ring to district plans or community plans, a broader area of general planning documents within the City of Winnip eg. They are appealable, as I understand it, to the Municipal Board. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Under The Planning Act, which relates to all municipalities outside of Winnip eg, matters involving district plans can be referred to the Municipal Board by the Min ister .

The board will make recommendations to the Min ister an d, if the Minister agrees with tho se rec ommen da ti ons, then he can expedite that plan by using the Lieutenant-Governor­ in-Council process. In the case of the City of Winnipeg, the matter would be referred to the Min ister of Urban Affairs. MR. J. ERNST: So there will be no appeal to the Municipal Board? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: No. MR. J.

ERNST: With respect then to the Mun icipal Board, do you feel it's a logical and fair and reaso nable process that planning matters upon which a decision has been made by a duly -elected form of lo cal government be superseded by a handful of appointed officials, nam ely, the Municipal Board? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The Mun icipal Boar d process is one in which an inde pendent body can hold hearings to hear all sides of the question. They in turn would make a re commendation to the Minister, and it's a Min isterial decision as to what happens.

That does not mean that there's any conflict between what a local jurisdiction may dete rmine. lt does provide for, I think, a greater public input. The provision of public hearings, I think, is a very important part of this process. MR. J. ERNST: The fact of the matter is, I haven't resea rched the numbers, but I suspect that any matters that have gone before the Municipal Board, 99 percent of which I'm sure would have been approved by the Minister.

In effect, those appointed members are making decisions and in fact overru ling elected officials in the Pro vinc e of Ma nitoba, elected officials of local gove rnment. I'v e experienced the process, Mr . Min ister. I know the kind of frustration that that presents and I don't happen to think it's fair . I'm asking your opinion. Do you think it's fair? I'd like to see legislation tabled to do away with that provision. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Wel l, I must admit that my experience with the Mun icipal Board has been rather limi ted, having been in this ministry for only two months, but I'm also aware that the Mun icipal Board has been around for a good number of years. As the member ind icates, there's some dissatisfaction with that. lt certainly has not been reflected to me in the past, let's say, six meetings that I'v e attended with the Union of Manitoba Municipalitie s. No one has raised the question as to whether the Municipal Board process is a fair process or not. I have to assume that it is working satisfactorily . MR. J.

ERNST: Mr. Chairman, on the same subject Just because somebody hasn't brought it up at a UMM meeting doesn't mean that everybody thinks it's a fair process. I think up to this point, many of them have giv en up virtually on the fact that those kinds of things can change, that this procedure has been in place for many years, I agree. lt doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct. lt doesn 't necessarily mean that what was applicable 15 or 20 years ago is applicable tod ay.

I think today that the quality of elected officials in local governments, both in terms of experience and in terms of dedication, in terms of staff support and a variety of other areas, has given them a much greater understanding and a much greater expertise than perhaps was evident when the Municipal Board was first started. Would the Min ister undertake to perhaps canvass the UMM to see if they are satisfied with that procedure, and perhaps he could talk to the Manitoba Urban Association at the same time to see if they're still satisfied with that proposal or should it be reviewed? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, just in response to that. I should indic ate that I consider the Union of Manitoba Municip alities to be an association that is reflective of the thinking of its membership. As the member knows, each year the y do submit to Cabinet a number of res olutions that the y pass at their conv ention. I'm not aware, at any time in the past number of years or probably for even the last 10 years, that there's been any request by the association to dispense with the Municipal Board; therefore I'd have to conclude that they are quite satisfied with the process. MR. J. ERNST: Mr.

Chairman, is the Min ister then saying that he's not prepared to talk to them about this, to elicit their opinion, with respect to any review of the affairs of the Municipal Board? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I think that there is a fairly open rela tionship between the department and the 1348

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 associations. I know we will be meeting on numerous occasions and certa inly I will, I'm sure, have the opportunity to ask what they think of the process. I'm also quite confident they will ind icate to me that they are fairly satisfied with that process. MR. H. PANK RATZ: After the board has made their decision, is there any appeal system still available to any jurisdiction? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, in fact, there are two situations where a matter can be reviewed and that is in a situation where there is new evidence that is presented or unearthed, and the Municipal Board can be asked to reconsider that or review that decision in view of the new evidence. Secondly , the matter can be reviewed at the courts, where it appears that the board erred in jurisdiction, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr .

Chairman, the Municipal Board is the overse eing body, as ind icated in the attachment that we have received, or the additional circulations we received dealing with the decisions of the borrowing of municipalities. Are there any outst anding or any specific major difficulties that have occurred this year that have been rejected by the board because of municipalities being in financial difficulties? Do we have any municipaliti es in the province that have demonstrated inability to borrow mon ies for one or another reason? MR. J. ERNST: Mr . Chairman, on a point of ord er. MR.

CHAIRMAN: A point of order is being raised. State your point of ord er. The Member for Charle swood. MR. J. ERNST: Would you ask the honourable members opposite to quiet down? I can't hear the question of the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. There are ways of mai ntai ning order here, and people who want to conv erse may stay outside the do or. The Mini ster of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. In answer to the question of the Member for Arthur , none that I am aware of are in that situation. MR. J. DOWNEY: Will the Min ister check it out?

He says none that he is aware of, I'm just wondering if there are any municipal authorities or jurisdictions that because of certain reasons are in difficult situations. As well, I would like to know if, for example, there was a prop osed boundary change in a municipali ty, would the municipality or the representative of that municipality have the opportunity to come before the board and appeal that proposed bounda ry change? Maybe the Minister could through you, Mr . Chairman, ind icate if tha t kind of an appeal mechaniism is avai lable, or process is av ailable when that kin d of action is proposed. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Jus t in answer to the previous quest ion, I'm advised that the municipal advi ser in th e Financial Services branch of the department moni tors the financial situation of all municipalities and to the best of our kno wledge, there are no mun icipali ties in the situation or the position where they cannot borrow, the situation such as described by the Member for Arthur . In response to the second question about, is there a body to which that type of matter can be appealed, and it is the Municipal Board. The Municipal Board will then make a recommendation to the Min ister. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Have there been any such cases before the board in the last year , or are there any intending to come before the board where there are proposed municipal bounda ry changes, where there is opposition from those people who are now repres enting the municipalities involved ? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm advised that most of the hearings that have been held in the recent past have been those where there's been joint consent by the municipal bodies that are involved. MR. J.

DOWNEY: lt's been brought to my att ention that there's a proposal, and I haven't got the file with me - but we'll let the Member for Minn edosa who's maybe more familiar with the particular case - just at this particular time but I'll get the opportunity later on probably to deal with it.

I know there is some extreme opposition. and I support the municipal councillors who have put their case forwa rd, that they do not feel they should have their bounda ry changed because of the dictation of a small villa ge at one end of the municipal ity, and remove some of the control from those individu als who are represen ting a larger area.

I would ask the Min ister's comments in this particular regard, if he has any particular policy on it or if he has any idea of allowing bounda ry changes which, in fact, could inhibit what I would consider responsible and good area repres entation as well as popu lation repres entation. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I think what the member is talking about is ward boun daries rather than municipal boundaries. I presume that the refere nce is to the Rural Munic ipality of Harrison. The background being is that, as ind icated, residents of Ward 5 in 1981 petitioned for a change.

The Municipal Board ordered the R.M. to alter the ward bounda ries to reflect population quotients - and I think we understand what that is - you take the population and divide it by the number of councillors, and you're al lowed 25 percent leeway either way. The order was restated in 1983. lt was taken to the Court of Appeal by the R.M., and was overruled by the Court of Appeal. In 19 84, the Municipal Board ordered abolition of wards in the R.M. Now ther e are, I'm su re, a numb er of rural municipalities in Manitoba that do not have ward boun daries where the councillors are elected at large.

I suppose that's the term we would use. MR. J. DOWNEY: I apologiz e for no t using the terminolo gy, ward bound aries. The concern that I raised earlier in my opening comments and raise again, particularly dealing with 1349 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 municipal politics in rural Manitoba, it's more of a responsibility in the majority of cases to look after the physical aspects of a municipality rather than those dir ect people responsi biliti es. I know the concern has been that because of the influence and the petition which the Minister talks about was brought forward, it had an influence on the changes of those ward bounda ries which, in fact, took away some of the area responsibility from individuals - or would take away from areas - which they felt was in the best int erests of the total municipality to look after.

I ask the Min ister what his feel ing about it is. Does he feel that the act as it is now, that the tolerance level there is equitable? Or in fact, would he propose to see it changed to protect what the municipality now feels in their best interest? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Well, again, in my short tenure, I've not been faced with tha t question.

However, I do know that a number of R.M .'s have been operating without a defined ward boun daries and have been operating quite successfully , so I don't unde rstand why there need necessa rily be this tremendous problem that is going to make municipal government unworkable in the R.M. of Harrison. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Min ister then if he would be prepared to meet dir ectly with those people who have ind icated the major concern to myself and to my colleague; would he be prepared to meet with, in the near future, to discuss their concerns so that they can dir ectly lay them out to him? I think it's a rea sonable request that he meet with them and they be given the opportunity to fully explain their concerns, and I would app re ci ate the Minis ter's acceptanc e of such a meeting. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'm always willing to meet with Manitobans who feel they have a problem that needs addressing.

However, that doesn't ind icate a position that I'm willing to take their side on, but cert ainly , I'm quite prepared to sit down with them at an appropriate time and to hear their side of the story. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. SLAKE: Yes, I might just add one or two comments, Mr. Chairman.

I'm well aware of the situation that the Member for Arthur refers to and I'v e ind icated to the council and to the other int erested citizens who have brought forward their appeal to have the ward boun daries changed, that I wouldn't be about to get between them in a fight that they have going in the local commun ity, but if the Minister is willing to meet with them, I suggested at one time that was what I would do for them.

If they wanted to present their case and if the other side wants to prepare their case, which they had done to the previous Minister, which brought about the municipal hearing and the municipal rulings. lt's a difficult case. I think their main argument now is that there are many other municipali ties in the same situation.

If they're going to do it for one, they might as well have a government policy that's going to do it on a wider scope, not just single out the one municipality which they feel they've been singled out to have boundary changes, there are school board boundaries involved, and various other things, and they feel that there should be an overall policy so they kno w exactly where they're going and what the future holds for them. If the Minister has agreed to meet with that municipal council, I think that's very commendable and I'll take that back to them. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister ind icate what the composition of the board is, give us the board members? I don't have the report before me, who they are. Are there any vacancies on the board? I, as well, note that the expend itur es that are being asked for this particular year are up, not a great amount of money, but there is an increase when there is a reduction in some of the other areas, so I'd ask the Min ister to ind icate who the board members are, and who they're made up of, and the reason for an incr ease in the expenditures? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the reason that the expenses have gone up, I'm advis ed , is basically because the Board does hold its hearings out in the location where the problem exists and, as you'll note on Page 21 of your Supplementary Book, that travel costs have incr eased as have vehicle costs. The increase is basically because of of travel costs. With respect to the composition of the board, the chairperson is Leifur Hallgrimson and members of the board are Bill Hicks, Joyce Lawson, Mr . Walterso n, George Bates, Jany Keen an , Gunnar Helgason, Ray Howard, Everett Leader, Myer Serfaty - Mr.

Roger Smith passed away last spring, I belie ve, or last fall and he's been rep laced by - Aime Gauth ier, Garth Berry, and Catherine Auld, and the former director of the Assessment Branch, I think, Mr. Jake Reimer, was appointed to the board this spring. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a question to the Min ister in regard to the borrowing. What ratio is used in order for a municipality to know what amount of money a municipality can borrow? lt's a percentage of the assessment, would you be able to tell me what that would be? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'm advised that each situation is judged on its merits, but the guideline is 30 percent of equaliz ed assessment, maximum. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Mr. Minister, was that the maximum did you say? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CU MMINGS: I'd lik e to ask for a li ttle clarification regard ing the authority of the Municipal Board and the opportunties for appeal.

Did you state a few minutes ago that the appeals, where there had been a refusal of appeal, that they could be reopened on the basis of new evidence or of a lack of jurisdiction, or what was the jurisdic tional reference that was included there? 1350

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'd ind icated that there were two situations where a decision may be reviewed or heard again, or that is where new evidence can be presented; and, seco ndly , where the Board has erred in jurisdiction; there were decisions made in an area for which it really had no responsibility outside of its jurisdiction. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Further to that, could you tell me, on the appointments to this Board, are they renewed annually or are those appointments semi­ permanent or are th ey at the pleasure of the Minister or how are they handled? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the appointments to the Municipal Board are reviewed annually and they're made by Lieutenant-Governor-in-CounciL MR. G. CUMMINGS: 1t would seem that this board has a very large amount of authority in the affairs of the municip alitie s in reference to th e assessment appeals. Is there any thought in the department of reviewing or changing this method of handling appeals that come forward from the municipalities and the taxpayers? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: But, I should remind the member that, in fact, in the - and I made reference to this earlier - that last year this House passed Bill 83 which reaf firmed the jurisdiction of the Municipal Board in hearing these sorts of matters. So, cer tainly , in that short period of time, the government would not have changed its feelings about the usefulne ss of this board. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I think the Mini ster probably kno ws my feelings regarding the board 's position in the appeals that come before it.

Can he tell me what profe ssional staff is available to it, other than a clerical staff, when they are making decisions? lt would appear to me to be equal to a judicial board, that their findings appear to be quite finaL Is there no recourse, and I apolog ize for not being more kno wledgeable in this area, is there no recourse, for example, to the court system on appeals in this area? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, Mr . Chairman, there is, as I ind icated. One can appeal to the Queen's Bench and I believe that is refe renced in Bill 83. I don't have it here.

But the other part of the question as to what sort of expertise is available to the board, I would think they could call on whoever they felt was knowledgeable in that particular area. I notic ed that in the particular case that the member has a concern about - I just got this in the last day or so and I'm certainly prepared to sit down and review this with you and with our staff - that in fact there was a number of staff from the provincial Municipal Assessor's Office that were there to assist.

The chief of the Soil and Water Mana gement Branch, Department of Agricultur e, was present; and I'm sure that in other hearings the Municipal Board would call on equally quali fied persons - it could be from other departments - but certainly the y, I would think, have 1351 access to whate ver expertise is requi red to make a re sponsible decision. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman, one of the problems, as I ind icated earlier in my opening comments, is the lack of regulations and guidelin es for the Surface Rights Board.

Can the Min ister ind icate this to some degree, a parallel as far as decision-making and as far as disputes are concerned, dealing with the approving of zoning appeals and that type of thing, would it be fair to draw a parallel between the work of the two bodies, to some degree, on both Sur face Rights and municipal disputes on al lowance of property development, or zoning development, changes in zones, or use of properties under The Planning Act?

Would that be a fair comment to make, that there could be a parallel drawn between this board dealing with city development or expansion of city bounda ries, or that type of thing, as well as the Surface Rights Board deals with disputes on use of surface rights? Would that be a fair parallel? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: lt's an interesting viewpoint but I must admit I certainly have not thought of that paralleL However, during the next number of months, as the member is aware, I have given my commitment to hear the views of lando wners and those involv ed in the ind ustry, to see if there are some ways in which we can create or bring about less unh appiness out there. So that will be something I would be willing to take a look at over the next number of months. MR. J.

DOWNEY: The reason I raise it - I'm trying to be positive in my comments to suggest that maybe there may be some regulations - that this board and the guidelines that the Municipal Board have to adhere to, would in tact work in the best interests of the surface rights owners dealing with the oil companies in some of the disputes.

I would urge the Minister to take a look at the point that I'm making, that there may be some regulations and guidelines drawn for the use by the Municipal Board, for the dir ection of the Municipal Board, that may well resolve some of the difficulties that are created and him gett ing regulations prepared for the Surface Rights Board. His comment from his seat, or his acknowledgement, is he prepared to do that? And are there similar regulations that may well be used in the Sur face Rights Board, from the Municipal Board? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: The reason I didn't respond, I didn't realize that there was a question. I thought you were just offering a suggestion. I was going to certainly take that under consideration. As I ind icated, over the next number of months we'll be looking at many aspects of the concerns that have been expressed to us by land owners and the ind ustry; and all views, all opinions are welcome and we'll review your suggestions that have been made. MR. H.

PANKRATZ: I want to ask the Min ister, the Municipal Board members which basically , let's face it - I mean they're appoi ntees - what qualifications must they have in order to be able to be on the board? j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That's a fairly large question to answer. Certain ly, I think one of the reasons that these individuals have been appointed to the board is the gov ernment's belief that they are persons of good judgment, or persons that can unde rstand, that can appreciate the situation. We have also tried to ensure that repres entation on the board is representative of the province. You will note from the list that I gave you - I didn't give you the addr esses- but I recognize, I think, most of those persons and the y represent virtually all of rural Mani toba.

Some of th ose have ha d muni cipal experience. I notice that Bill Hicks, I believe, has been on the council at Lynn Lake, or Leaf Rapids. Mr. Walterson has been involved with municipal politics at Beausejour. Gunnar Helgason is the current reeve, I believe, of Bifrost. So one can go down that list. Garth Berry, I believe, is involved in the council at the A. M. of Roblin, or the Village of Cartright, one or the other. So these people do have a cert ain amount of muni cipal experience. Judgment, geographical distribution, and municipal experience are some of the qualiti es we look at. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I'd like to follow up on the last question because that's the area that still concerns me. I find it very disturbing when agricultural properties are up for review for assessment, that the people involved in the boards may not necessarily have what I would consider good qualifications to be able to even assess the information that is laid before them.

When the chairman of the board continually refers to the people who are appealing to him, that he doesn't understand what an acre is - and that comment, I understand, is on the reco rd, I stand to be corrected if it is not - it seems to me that in itself either demonstrates a bellig erence or a lack of understanding.

I feel that in some of the assessment reviews, where there is some technical information that is required, the Minister stated that - pardon me - where technical information is required it would seem to me that there has to be also an ability and a training, if you will, or experience to be able to understand the information that is being brought forward.

When the Min ister stated that the assessment officials would be available, I appreciate that the y would be, but I suggest that possibly they would be there to defend the position that in fact was being appealed and would be there to offer the reasons for their assessment. So in that case their presentation to the board would be somewhat bia sed. The total onus, therefore, falls on the appellant to produce the information, and that is not nece ssarily wrong if the ability to assess that information li es with the board that has been appointed.

If the Municipal Board system has been reaffirmed, and I appreciate what the Minister has said, and I apologize for not having realized that it was reviewed and reaffirmed as recently as it was, but I would encourage the department to consider that fact that as we get into a more technical area, particularly in the agricultur al areas where productivity becomes a very important part of assessing the value, there has to be a balance, it seems to me, struck between just straight raw sales and productivi ty.

The understanding of the people on the board has to be of a very broad base so that they can appreciate the information that's being brought before them. I would appeal to the Minister to give that very serious consideration in the future appointments on these boards because I do believe that there is cause for concern out there among the people who come before these boards for an appeal, and they do not have confidence in the fact that the experience of the board members necessarily is in the field in which the appeal is being presented to them. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: lt's just been pointed out to me that one of the board appoin tees, and that's Mr. Jake Reim er, had a long experience in assessment. He's a certified apprai ser, I belie ve, and he has an agricultur al backgrou nd, so I think he appr eciates all sides of the question. I should just say to the Member for Ste. Rose that the Municipal Board is basically a tribunal. They cer tainly don't have to be experts in soils or pric es of commodities or whatever to be able to make, I think, a responsible decision based on the information that is provided to them from the various sources.

I again ind icate to the member that I actually would appreciate the opportunity to sit down and go through this particular decision. We'll bring in staff from our Assessment Branch. lt may be that the member will have a better understanding of why a decision of this nature was made. MR. G. CUMMI NGS: I appr eciate the Min iste r's cooperat ion. I am not trying to corner him at this particular point because he has given me his intention previously to take a serious look at the one that I am calling into question at this point.

But it's the process that bothers me, and the process as I saw it happen in this particular case that I'm trying to get at, Mr. Minister. You pointed out one indi vidual that, and I would say from what you'v e said, although I do not know the indi vidual, would appear to have qualif ications that are necessary for the job. But there is a problem that I would also like to elicit an ans wer from the Min ister through his departmental people.

Ina smuch as where certain soil types are being presented for assessment, it's my understanding that there is a considerable sh ortfall possi bly in the information that's in the departmental scope, if you will, in different soil types. I guess I have to be specific in order to enable you to answer my question properly . But in the stockton soil types, there is a wide range of soil types and there's a wide range of productivity and a wide range of value in those soil types.

While I do not have the information to lay before you at this time, it is my understanding that there is some shortfall in the basis that's used in reference to the se various soil types and, in fact, goes back to - and I presume your information is all based from your computer bank - perhaps that is where the basis of the problem may lie if in fact there is a problem out there as I perceive it. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Ind eed, there's a very specific reference to the matter of soil types in the report from the Municipal Board. I think again, we'll 1352

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 sit down and take a look at that and bring in some of our staff to review that. I must say that I can apprecia te that it is a difficult area. None of us, at least that I'm aware of, are agrologists or soil specialists. The evidence that is presented is very, very technical and it does require some considerable thought to appreciate the decision that the board made. We'll review that. MR. G. CUMM INGS : I app reciate the Min ister's commitment again to review those concerns if I could very briefly pinpoint the area in which I hope he will take a look.

A perfect example is that if there are areas of wellwood loams mixed in with the stocktons, if there is a stockton overt ill, it's my understanding that the department do esn't have a category for stockton overt ill. I'm not trying to get this into a technical discussion; I'm not a soil specialist myself.

But it seems to me that I'm on good grounds to ask the department to review some of these variations of soil types because there is great possi bility for an unequal assessment on some of the lands where the soil types change rapidly and wher e the two departments, as I pointed out before, do not necessarily coincide on their judgment of the soil types. I believe that there are grounds for review. MR. J. DOWNEY: Just to follow on with that, Mr.

Chairman, I would certainly hope that the Minister would be a little more sensitive than he is as far as those indi viduals who are dir ectly kno wledgeable and on the board, dealing with concerns that have major dollar­ and-cents costs to those people who are paying the taxes and who are depending on ind ividuals who they may go before with an appeal, that they have a good background and a good understanding and kno wledge of their problem.

The case in point that I am aware of in an area in the province, particula rly, there appears to have been a lack of the kind of understan ding by one particular member of the board at that time. I'm sure the individual the Min ister referred to does not go to every hearing. With a board that size, I imagine that there are hearings at different locations throughout the province. Let's look at what the problem is. Following 19 73, when the inflationary factor was a major part of the increases in land values, land went up and continued to go up until about 19 80.

Seeing some major increases in land prices, people wer en't necessarily buying it either for the assessed values or any relationship to the assessed values, they were buying it on an inflationary factor and land prices went up. The assessors came through and have continually increased the assessments. Now what has happened in the last five years with commodity pric es dropping and land values dropping, the farmers, particularly in some of the areas where some of this major escalation took place, now feel that they are being unfairly assessed.

The point has to be made with the Minister that someone who sits on the board in judgment has to have an appreciation for what has happened. I know what the situation is dealing with this particular government and this Min ister, Mr . Chairman. He and 1353 his collea gues and their NDP philosophy haven't given a darn about the way they've spent the money. So they in fact are going after the people that they can go after for those funds to spend that money irresponsib ly. Yes, Mr . Chairman, that's the bottom line.

In fact, I would ask the Min ister if he has, in any way, shape or form, influenced them to make sure that there aren't any lowering of assessments, that the y make sure that base is maintained to continue to generate the mone y, because the ability to generate the tax mo ney on that high assessment isn't there, Mr . Chairman. And we'd like a little bit of consideration, if not from the Min ister, at least in his appointing of people on those boards to make sure that there is a fair hearing where people go to an appeal process. That's the point that we want to raise.

There are land values incr eased up until 19 80. Assessments came along and yes, the assessments went up. Now we've seen a depressed agriculture community, lowering of land values, and what happened? They haven't been lowering the assessments. No w maybe we should make some kind of a re commendation so tha t we use the Min ister of Agriculture's assessors, when they're going out to assess for MACC loans, to go through the Municipal Affairs Department and now start making some assessments.

We may in fact get a more realistic approach to land values, you see, because their job is to appraise it for the lending of mone y, and if things are a li ttle bit tough, th ey're going to be tough appraisers. lt may just lower th ose assessments to some degree. The story goes like this - the value of the farmer's land is somewhat in relationship as to whether the assessor is there or whether in fact it's the appraiser for sale value - and I think the government is doing the same thing.

The assessors, through the Municipal Branch, are maintaining the assessment not necessarily because the land value and the ability to produce is there but because the government needs the money, Mr. Chairman. So I don't expect much compassion from the indi vidual who's the Minister; we didn' t get much from the Min ister before. But he's gone and I would expect that this Minister will be gone before too long in the future as well because of their lack of compassion and understanding and sensitive approach to what is a very difficult situation for the farm commun ity. What we're asking, Mr.

Chairman, is to make sure that on the board of appeal there are people who have a clear understanding of what the problem is. I think the Member for Ste. Rose is more directly involved in the particular area, but I'm sure it holds true throughout the province, that every effort is being put forward by the appraisals and the assessments to hold the value there to generate income for the province. Mr. Chairman, I think it would only be an appropria te move for the Min ister to take, to take a serious look at it, not only take a serious look at it but take some action to lower the assessments.

I ask the Min ister if he won't stand and give us a commitment not to meet and discuss but, in cases where that has happened, that he will make a direct move to see that the assessment values are low ered to be fair to th ose people who are caught in a very tough economic situation? j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The Member for Arthur is, as usual, about 10 0 percent wrong. The Member for Arthur should be aware th at in de cisions by the Mun icipal Board on matters of assessment, their decision is final. The Min ister canno t in any way influence that decision. So I don't have that latitude that the member would like me to exercise. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman, the Min ister is now saying he's the Min ister without authorit y. He's the Min ister of Municipal Affairs is what he is.

He's not a Min ister without authority; there isn't such a thing as a Minister without authori ty. Show me a Minister, Mr . Chairman, who isn't prepared to stand up and defend the people he's supposed to represent and I guess we've got one who just admitted it. He does have the power, Mr . Chairman, he does have the power. I don't say that he would want to go with an Order-in-Council and dir ectly try to change that value, but yes, he has the power to put in place tho se people who are going to do the admin istration of that program.

He has to make sure that they have a clear understanding of the situation that's out there. I think, through some of the discussions I'v e had with farmers, or the comments I've heard come from the Member for Ste. Rose, that there are some specific cases that should be looked at. If he isn't prepared to do it , he should appoint a member of the committee of the board that is sensitive to it. That's the kind of power that he can exercise. Don't leave those people in place because they're just strictly political friends of his.

No, I'm not saying that the y all are and I'm sure that they aren't. lt would be interesting to do a little check on it, but I'm sure that they all aren't. I'm sure that certain ones lean in his political dir ection. But what I'm saying is he can't sit here and say, oh, 1 don't have any res ponsibility; that's somebody else's. He does have the re sponsibility to make sure he looks after the area of res ponsibil ity. Yes, Mr .

Chairman, he has to bear the responsi bility for his department and the actions of every board and commission within that department, and I would ask him if he wouldn't carry out the re sponsibility and protect those people who he's responsible to. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm cer tainly glad the Member for Arthur clarified his position. There is a distinct difference between authority and re sponsibil ity.

I clearly ind icated I do not have the authorit y, under legislation, to interfere with the decision by the Municipal Board when it comes to assessment; nor do es the Solicitor- General have any authority to interfere with the decision of a court. That should be fairly obvious. However, certainly , I do have a respo nsibil ity to do my utmost to see that the decisions the board is making are fair and just. By reviewing a decision such as this one, it'll be helpful to me to either confirm to myself that the board has been dealing properly or that perhaps the board should be looking at things in a different light.

I am quit e prepared to fulfill my respon sibil ity; however, the authority to change a decision is not there. All these matters require review and, certain ly, I'm looking forward to sitting down with departmental staff and going through this thing because I'm not an expert; I'll be the first one to admit it. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I would like to make one last clarification to the Mini ster regar ding this one item on which we've been dwelling for the last few moments. 1t seems to me that when the people who have been appealing have never referred to Almasippi soils in their appeal, and then the appeal comes back based on stockton soils, there clearly has to be some concern about the understanding of what was in fact being appealed.

I guess that has to be the bottom line in our concern about people being involved - and I don't want to renegotiate the settlement here tonight - but I do want it clearly on the record that that sort of a situation cannot be tacked up to a typing error, in my opinion, and it rings to me of the sound of a possible la ck of un derstan ding of what was in fact being appealed.

This is why we're very concerned about the knowledge of the people who are put in this very responsible position because, as the Mini ster has said, it's a quasi judicial hearing with almost no appeal other than to the courts, and I think it's creating a considerable amount of concern in the cou nt ry. MR. J. ERNST: With the indu lgence of you , Mr . Chairman, I'd like to refer back briefly to one item under the previous sect ion. This is

Section 1. (e), and the reference in the add itional suppleme ntary information is on Page 20. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable to the Min ister? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes - the Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Through you, would you conv ey my heartfelt thanks to the Min ister for his generosity? MR. CHAIRMAN: So convey ed. MR. J. ERNST: With respect to grants to other sources, the UMM and MAUM, could the Min ister advise why no grants are being made in the present fiscal year? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: I understand that some two years ago discussions were held with the associat ions and we advised them that the grants would be phased out over a two-year period. So last year, as you'll note on Page 20, grants in the amount of $5,000 were made to each of the municipal associations. This year they have been pha sed out completely . The grant to the Municipal Admin istrators Association is ongoing for $1 ,000 a year.

Perhaps also while I'm on my feet and we're back to Sect ion 1., I would just like to get back to the matter of some of the questions that were raised by the Member for Brandon West, with your indul gence, the commun ications question. MR. J. ERNST: Could the Mini ster then advise how sect