Manitoba Hansard — 10 September 2003 (Sitting 04, 38th Legislature, 1st Session)

38-1-04

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIV No. 4 – 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, September 10, 2003

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

247 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, September 10, 2003 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I table The Public Trustee Annual Report '02-03, Civil Legal Services SOA Report '02-03. Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2003-2004 Departmental Estimates for Sport. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2001-2002 Manitoba Student Aid Program Annual Report. Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2003-2004 Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Family Services and Housing. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table Supplementary Information for Estimates for the Manitoba Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and for Manitoba Conser- vation. Speaker's Statement Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I have a tatement for the House. s As a result of negotiations and an agreement that has been reached between representatives of the Government, the Official Opposition and the independent members, the following provisions will be implemented during Oral Questions for the month of September, 2003, on a trial basis: 50 seconds will be allowed for questions and answers during Oral Questions; no points of order are to be raised using Beauchesne citations 409(2), 410, 417 and 408(2); points of order and matters of privilege can continue to be raised during Oral Questions; Leader’s latitude will continue to apply, with the exception of when a question is directed to a specific minister and is instead answered by the Premier; the assignment of questions during Oral Questions is such that questions 1 to 6 will be allocated to the Official Opposition caucus, question 7 will be designated for the independent Liberal members and question 8 will go to a government backbencher, if a government backbencher should rise to ask a question.

The order will then revert back to the Official Opposition caucus. The independent Liberal members are guaranteed a question every day, and if the Liberals should miss the opportunity to ask a question due to time expiring, the Liberals will receive two questions during the following Question Period. This is to be accomplished by the Speaker recognizing the Liberals when 10 minutes are remaining in the subsequent Ques- tion Period.

On Mondays and Tuesdays, it is agreed that one independent Liberal member can ask one question and one supplementary question, to be followed by the other inde- pendent Liberal member who will then be llowed to ask one question. a Effective September 10, I will be applying these practices to the remaining Question eriods for the month of September. P * (13:35) I wish to extend thanks to all members for their hard work and diligence in negotiating this agreement, particularly the honourable Govern- ment House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh), the hon- ourable House Leader for the Official Opposi- tion (Mr.

Derkach) and the honourable Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): The Doer government has already committed a $100-million figure to a low-

248 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 interest loan program and one would assume the only group that would applaud a program that does not work, Mr. Speaker, one would assume if they committed the $100 million, that they are willing to spend it. However, instead of the ineffective and cumbersome loan program that the Doer government has established, our pro- ducers and their families are asking for a cash advance program. Will the Premier, who has already committed to spending the $100 million, convert the loan program to a cash advance program? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite should recall his own letter to producers that we received in July, at the same time we made the announcement on the low- interest loan program. The Assembly should address itself to the real challenge of getting actual real cash as opposed to advances, whether it is low-interest loans or a loan, the cash assist- ance in advance.

With the advice of all farm organizations that we have been discussing this issue with, including calf and cattle producers and the Man- itoba Chamber of Commerce, they all said to us even though the APF program is flawed, you have no choice but to sign it even though you have some improvements to it. The bottom line is we took the advice of the various organ- izations because I think getting an advance for a cheque is not as important as getting the actual cheque and cash. Our $43 million is on the table for this program.

Members opposite are opposed to real in- come going to the cattle producers in their opposition to the APF. Last year they were in favour of the APF, now they are opposed to it. We cannot have two positions on an issue of this importance and that is why we agreed to sign the agreement and have real income go to people that are really suffering income losses here in Manitoba. * (13:40) Mr. Murray: Today is day 114 of the BSE crisis in Manitoba and this Premier continues to drag his heels.

Even if the full $350 million in cash advances requested by the Manitoba Cattle Producers were to be given, the cost to the province would be less than $20 million. Man- itoba, the cattle industry, the beef industry, is worth $525 million. That is what it was worth in 2001 in this province. With losses pegged at a million dollars a day, we have already lost $114 million. Surely, the Premier would agree that $20 million is a small price to pay, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that an important industry in Manitoba is saved. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the fundamental issue of saving our industry still remains the opening of the border and the ability also in this province to rebuild our slaughter capacity that has become regrettably over the years, from 292 000 cattle in 1989 to under 20 000 in the year 2003. We have some real challenges to manage in our own industry. Mr. Speaker, the APF funding that we have put in this Budget is $43 million. The money we have allocated out of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund for the programs that we have agreed to since May 20 is $17 million, including the slaughter enhancement.

The amount of money we will be paying for the low interest rates, particularly the 2.25 percent is much more than that. That is well over $60 million, three times more than the members opposite are calling for. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the Premier clearly does not get it. What we are talking about is less than $20 million. That amount should not get in the way of saving farm families and an entire industry. If the Premier does not see that it just shows how heartless and uncaring he really is.

This morning I heard a producer say all provinces and premiers are fighting for their pro- ducers except ours in Manitoba. There is no future for our farmers with this Government because this Government does not care about the future of the cattle producers in Manitoba. In fact, Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. They could not even be bothered to have either the Premier or the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) attend yesterday's meeting of the Manitoba Rural Adaptation Council Conference here in Manitoba. Not one member attended. I would ask the Premier again. Surely, $20 million, Mr.

Speaker, is the right amount to flow

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 249 to ensure that those families are not put in a desperate position as they see because of the lack of what we see from this Government, no action. Please, Mr. Premier, do the right thing. Flow the $20 million. Ensure that those families are looked after, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, members opposite are opposed to the APF. They are opposed to the advice given to us by all the farm organizations. Well, they were in favour of it last year and they are opposed to it this year. Mr.

Speaker, that component has some $43 million in our Budget that will flow in income, not in advances, in income to the desperately needed cattle producers across Manitoba that need income from both their provincial and federal governments. Members opposite want advances; we want real income to deal with the ncome losses here in Manitoba. i * (13:45) Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, in 2002, the Doer government faced its own financial crisis.

They we re forced to pay the federal government close to $300 million as a result of a federal accounting error. The solution that was devised by the NDP was to simply add $287 million to the accumu- lated deficit, no mention in their statement of revenue and expenses. I would like the Minister of Finance to explain to the Manitoba families who are suffering through this BSE crisis why on the one hand he can go out and add $287 million to the deficit to solve his own crisis but when cattle producers ar e facing these trying times he can give them nothing. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I think it is obvious to everybody that if we had not solved that federal accounting error, the resources we have today that we are making available to farmers would not be there. That ability to resolve that federal accounting error saved all people in Manitoba countless millions of dollars. The money that we negotiated with them in terms of repayment was an amount that was spread over several ye ars, an error that was overlooked by the previous government. It was an error that was made on their watch and ignored by the federal government.

We solved their problem in order that we could have resources today to put $60 million on the table for Manitoba cattle producers, $43 million in the agricultural framework agreement. We have our money on the table. We are ready to move on that. If the federal government would sign on and flow that money, it would be there. We have put $17 million on the table as well and that money is already flowing. You guys just bring hollow rhetoric without any money attached to it to the table. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, the cost of this cash advance program is likely less than $20 million.

This minister went out and borrowed close to $300 million to solve his own problem. He provided nothing to the cattle producers of Manitoba. I would like him to stand in his place and explain to the cattle producers of Manitoba, those families who are having trouble seeing how they are going to feed their children for the winter, how they are going to clothe them; I would like him to explain how, on the one hand he can go out and borrow $287 million and add it to the deficit to suit his own purposes and yet when they are asking for a program that would only cost him $20 million, he says no. Mr.

Selinger: The member from Fort Whyte is astounding in his ignorance. We did not borrow $300 million, we made an accounting entry to recognize the problem that occurred on their watch in the '95 period. There was no additional borrowing. What we did is we preserved and ensured that we got our equalization payments and other transfers stabilized in this province, which has allowed us to balance the Budget, have a Fiscal Stabilization Fund which we are using today to respond to these people in rural Manitoba going through so much suffering and which you are ignoring by your hollow rhetoric. Mr.

Speaker: Before recognizing the honourable Member for Fort Whyte, I would just like to remind all honourable members when you are picking your words to pick them carefully because every member in the House is an

250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 honourable member and should be treated as such. Mr. Loewen: This is the same minister that told us Hydro would not have to go out and borrow money as a result of his demand from them. Yet, according to his own officials, the debt keeps going higher and higher and higher. Do the right thing, stand up for Manitoba families, tell the cattle producers that you will lobby with the Premier (Mr. Doer) to set up a program to give them cash advances that will only cost you $18 to $20 million.

We are simply asking you to do the same thing for these families in their trying times as you did for yourself. Mr. Selinger: Once again the member from Fort Whyte is astounding in the inaccurate statements he makes. There was no borrowing for the Hydro dividend. The only borrowing that oc- curred in Manitoba Hydro was for capital projects which increased the value of the assets in this province. When the members opposite purchased Centra Gas they paid $55 million for what was called good will, $55 million for a name that had no assets attached to it.

What we have done is we have said let us move forward on the ag ricultural framework agreement which puts our $43 million on the table and flows real income to cattle producers in this province. You folks are opposed to sign- ing that agreement and you would rather have an offside program. You cannot beat the $43- million program that we have on the table with our suggestions. y * (13:50) Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

In February of this year, $20 million of taxpayers' money was flowed to Motor Coach Industries. This loan was made, as the Premier (Mr. Doer) stated, in good faith. Yet, today, we hear this Government state that they are not prepared to protect an entire industry affecting over 12 000 families with less than $20 million. Where is the common sense of this Government? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Acting Minister of Agriculture and Food): I thank the Member for pringfield for the question. S The key issue has always been reopening the border.

It is the Canadian border we are talking about that has created so much difficulty for our producers, and certainly not only this Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) but our Premier has spoken to other provincial ministers and also other premiers, spoken to governors of the states south of us, trying to reopen the border, doing everything humanly possible that they can to show the United States, because one cow, one cow in Alberta has created this difficulty for so many of our producers, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Schuler: My question is to the Minister of griculture.

A This Government was more than willing to bail out Motor Coach Industries, a company headquartered in Chicago, yet is not prepared to give cash advances to 12 000 families in Man- toba. i Does the minister lack clout with her boss, the Premier, or does she lack the willingness to stand up for an entire industry? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, in the year 2000, we flowed $50 million out of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund to deal with the income challenges for grain and oilseeds producers.

Of course, the members opposite said that we hould take $300 million out of the fund. s In the year 2001, we flowed another $50 million, cost-shared again for the grain and oil- seeds producers because of the challenge that they had. Again, members opposite wanted us to drain the fund for the second time. There would not have been any money left if we had done it the first time. Again, they are proposing to pro- eed with the same measures. c Mr.

Speaker, the interest rates for the loan at Motor Coach are double that for producers, and ven more than that, they are repayable. e On top of the program for producers, the $100-million advance, a low-interest loan ad- vance, we have $43 million in income, Mr. Speaker.

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 251 Mr. Schuler: The Premier of Manitoba stated that he would fight for the workers of MCI yet efused to meet with any farm group for 72 days. r My question is to the Minister of Agri- culture. Will the minister now demand of her boss, the Premier, that 12 000 families be offered a cash advance at a cost of less than $20 million, or is she willing to sacrifice the liveli- hood of 12 000 Manitoba families? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, this is very serious and there are a lot of families that are really under a lot of uncertainty and economic pressure.

When we announced the low-interest rate hundred-million-dollar program, lower for the younger farmers at 2.25 percent, we said it was a short-term measure to deal with the situation in the farm community. We said the $15 million and the amendment to the $15 million was a short-term solution. We said rebuilding the slaughterhouse capacity was buying some change, but we needed a lot more change in the industry in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, we believe that the federal- provincial income support program, the $43 million that will trigger over $60 million from the federal government, which the federal min- ister says will flow within six weeks, is crucial for Manitoba families. * (13:55) Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels on (River East): The Premier (Mr. Doer), as a former union boss along with his Minister of Industry and Trade, Mr.

Speaker, within a few days, without batting an eye, opened the chequebook and took almost $20 million of taxpayers' money and provided that to MCI to save 1200 jobs, where the cor- porate profits– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, MCI received close to $20 million in taxpayers' money in order to save 1200 jobs, when the corporate profits from MCI flow directly to Chicago. My question for the Minister of Industry and Trade is: Is it because the Premier, a former union boss, views the farmers, because they are non-unionized after 114– Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the House and Manitobans that our Premier has been working very hard with farmers in Manitoba and was responsive to them from the day that the first BSE case was detected through communications by phone and every other venue that is possible. The misinformation that the member across the House is placing on the record is also concerning.

The portion of our contribution was a loan, a loan that is repayable which they have already made, contingent on their investment in Manitoba, which they have done dollar to dollar, so there is no bailout. The amount of money that Manitobans have put forward will be recovered at rates twice as much available to farmers– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. I have to be able to hear the questions and th e answers. I ask the co- operation of all honourable members, please. The honourable minister has about five seconds remaining. Ms.

Mihychuk: I would just like to point out that the loan rates for farmers are substantially better than those available for MCI, and that the amount is significantly larger. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, the minister just confirmed $20 million in two days for MCI to save 1200 union jobs and 114 days and no money for farmers whose pr ofits stay right here in the province of Manitoba. Is it because this Government and this minister, under the leadership of a former union boss, are giving preferential treatment to 1200 jobs whose profits

252 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 go to the States when farmers whose profits stay right here in Manitoba should be supported? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): No, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, and the answer from the Premier was a slap in the face to 12 000 farmers, a large industry in the province of Man- itoba whose dollars are generated here, whose money stays here to support our rural com- munities, our families, our education system and our health care system. Where are the priorities under the leadership of this Premier?

Are his priorities to support union bosses and ensure that farmers who are not unionized do not get a penny from this Gov- ernment? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we do not need any lectures from the member opposite who sat in Cabinet and gave $35 million to SmartHealth, tens of millions of dollars to Shamray, money to strawboard plants that never had any return, money to Faneuil out of Massachusetts, over a hundred million dollars in items we had to deal with when we opened the books from members pposite. o We put in 50–[interjection] * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: Order.

Once again, I would like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members, because it is very important that I am able to hear the questions and the answers in case there is a breach of the rules. So I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Doer: Unlike members opposite, we care about all the people of Manitoba. That is why we put in $60 million to deal with cattle producers and the immediate challenge that they have in the crisis in rural Manitoba. That is why we put in loan guarantees to establish the bus industry here in Manitoba. We care about every Mani- toban.

That is the difference between them and us, Mr. Speaker. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): What the Premier fails to tell Manitobans is that– Mr. Speaker: Once again, I would like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please, because it is very important that we are all able to hear the questions and the answers. Also, we have the visitors in the public galleries and we have the viewing audience on TV. I am sure each and every member would like to set the right tempo for our viewing public.

I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Tweed: What the Premier fails to tell Manitobans is that not one penny of that $43 million has flowed anywhere to people in Man- toba. i What do we know, Mr. Speaker? We know that the Premier interfered with negotiations at MCI and then negotiated $20 million of govern- ment money for owners in Illinois. We know we have a crisis in Manitoba that could be solved for less than $20 million. My question goes to the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk).

Has the Minister of Agriculture failed the cattle producers in Mani- toba by failing to convince her Government the importance of the cattle industry? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we announced a program, a federal-provincial pro- gram which we confirmed with the cattle pro- ducers of Manitoba in Kelowna. We further amended that program after it was not producing the results for Manitoba producers. We an- nounced a $2-million slaughterhouse capacity enhancement fund. Because of the absolute pres- sure, the absolute pressure of cattle producers to get income, we signed on to the $43-million program.

Their position is not to sign on to get the 60 percent federal money in income. I regret that, but of course I am not surprised, because they have one position on the deficit. They want us to make cuts but they will not tell us where to make cuts. They want us to sign the APF, now they do not want us to sign the APF. We are taking our advice and we want to flow real income to people that are challenged with their incomes here in this crisis. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, 1200 jobs, $20 million flowed in good faith to a company based in the United States. The Government has

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 253 second or third position on the loan, we are not sure, and the Ministry of Industry (Ms. Mihychuk) has already stated she is not un- prepared to flow more money if necessary. In rural Manitoba we have 12 000 families and thousands more related jobs. They are ask- ing the farmers for a 100% security pledge on their loans and their firs t-borns, I am sure that will come next, Mr. Speaker.

Again I ask the Minister of Agriculture: Has she failed to convince this Government that MCI, or, pardon me, th at the agricultural in- dustry, the cattle industry is more important than MCI to the people of Manitoba? Mr. Doer: Again, Mr. Speaker, we have two different positions from the members opposite. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray), in a radio interview, said he would have signed the MCI deal but he would have done it faster than we did. The member from Springfield took a different–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Doer: Yes, then you did sign a letter really fast that called for a loan program for the producers, Mr. Speaker. Members opposite, they have different positions on the APF, they have different positions on whether to have a deficit, they have different positions today and tomor- row on MCI between the member from Spring- field and the Leader of the Opposition. We believe that all Manitobans deserve a government that is with them, will stand with them. That is why we have $60 million for the cattle producers. It is a r eal crisis and we should band together in this House.

We should start uniting in this House by calling on the federal government to flow their money to the cattle producers. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, all we are asking this Government to do is treat Manitoba cattle producers with the same respect that he treated the workers at MCI. Mr. Speaker, when the Premier signed the deal with MCI he stated and I quote: We get about $20 million per year back in tax revenues from MCI operations. We think that is good.

The cattle industry generates over half a billion ollars in revenue to the province of Manitoba. d Again I ask the Minister of Agriculture: Has she failed in convincing her colleagues, the Premier, the Health Minister (Mr. Chomiak), the Finance Minister (Mr. Selinger) that the cattle industry in Manitoba is just as important as MCI and that the Government should step up to the plate and help the industry today? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture all summer has been working hard and diligently to get the APF agreement that was proposed to the provinces amended to deal with the payment by producers over a longer period f time rather than a shorter period of time. o At a meeting we have had on a number of occasions with all, all, the farm organizations in Manitoba they said, yes, you have improve- ments, Madam Minister, and, yes, those improvements are good for producers and you have no other choice but to sign that agreement and have real income flow to the cattle producers of Manitoba through a federal-provincial agree- ent. m Members opposite, for their own political reasons, are opposed to that after supporting it.

We are signing it because that is the advice we have and that will put $43 million additional in income, not advances to cattle producers in Manitoba. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, there are, as has been previously said, 12 000 producers in this provin ce. There are thousands of jobs that are dependent on the livestock industry. There are value-added jobs that are dependent on that livestock industry such as trucking and others. Will the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) today explain why for a cost of $20 million or less this Government will not provide a cash advance program to the producers to save

254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 that industry and the thousands of jobs that are dependent on that industry? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Acting Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. I am a member from the southeast of the province. I am also an MLA from the southeast of the province of Manitoba and I have spoken to many farmers, many family members that are also very con- cerned about the cattle industry and the beef industry in the province. We have $43 million on the table.

Many, many producers have told us yes, even though it is flawed, the Minister of Agriculture did what she could to attempt to make a change with regard to the APF, and even though it is flawed you have to take it. Our money is there. We are waiting to get a partner with regard to the APF and trying to work with this, but the families I have spoken to in Manitoba and especially from the southeast that I am also a member of, as the member opposite is, they are also seeing the hardship. We are trying to deal with that and the Minister of Agriculture is also doing a great job of doing that. * (14:10) Mr. Penner: Mr.

Speaker, in a copy of a letter from Chris Coulson to the Premier, that I also received, who is the wife of a young farmer and I quote: We cannot sell any cattle and our pastures are completely devastated. We need feed, we need money to buy feed for our cattle and we do not qualify for your loans program. Mr. Speaker, when will the Minister of Agriculture realize the depth of desperation and use her cash advance program to buy them hay, to buy their kids clothes and to allow their kids proper clothing to go to school? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Just on the specific individual, I certainly would like to take the circumstances as notice. A young farmer is entitled under the program to a 2.25% interest rate, which a very low interest rate, Mr. Speaker. On the issue of the drought and feed situ- ation, we are very awar e of the transportation challenges for feed, Mr. Speaker, and we are working on a drought transportation program with the federal minister that we think would make sense for Manitoba producers.

We recognize in three areas of the province, at least, there are some real challenges on the situation with the lack of a second crop of hay and the dryness of the pa sture areas. This is an issue that we have had various proposals, a per acre payment, a transportation issue. We cer- tainly believe that it is related to BSE, because in past years they would have sold their cattle. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, we have heard a lot about the APF program today. The Premier has not told this House that it will cost a farmer $22,000 to cover himself for $100,000.

Chris writes: I am 25 years old and I have always been a faithful NDP supporter, but I am starting to lose faith. Please, please give me a call, Mr. Premier. That is her letter to you. Mr. Speaker, why will this minister, why will this Premier not concede to putting in place a cash advance system th at would allow these young people to maintain their operation and provide a living for their young family? They are the seed that we are looking for to continue this agricultural industry. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, KAP has recommended we sign the federal-provincial agreement.

The municipalities and Stuart Briese have recom- mended that we sign the federal-provincial agreement. The cattle producers have recom- mended that we sign the federal-provincial agreement for income. The Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, the sheep producers, the veter- inarians that we met with, all the organizations we met with:

a) admitted that we made improvements to the federal-provincial program,

b) have said the federal government has had a gun at our producers' heads if you do not sign the agreement with the cash that they are entitled to from their national government. We have signed that agreement and now it is time for the federal gove r n m e n t t o s h a r e . O u r money is on the table. We have to get that cash and income to our producers, Mr. Speaker. That is really the challenge for this Legislature as I see it, to take the advice of the elected leadership

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 255 of the farm organizations to take that money and have some real income to deal with the real, real economic challenges in rural Manitoba. Livestock Industry Marketing Campaign Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, one of the issu es facing Manitoba slaughterhouses is marke ting Manitoba beef and getting the very best possible price for Manitoba farmers. I think that one of the things which is important is there for marketing and providing good guarantees for Manitoba beef.

I would ask the Premier if he would undertake on behalf of the Manitoba government a major marketing campaign for Manitoba beef and, as part of that advertising campaign, pro- vide a provincial seal of approval, a provincial guarantee that Manitoba beef marketed through this program is BSE free. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): First of all, Mr. Speaker, the member should know that one of our real challenges for the beef here in Manitoba is the older cattle. We need federal inspectors to deal with some of them and members opposite would know this, to deal with the challenges with the older cattle.

That is a real challenge for us that is not just answered in a 10-second answer for all of the legislators here in Manitoba. We need to find a way to target some of these plants and to target what we know to be a new operation to target the older animals. We have to try to get as many of the older animals processed as possible because they remain the most vulnerable for the lack of closure of the American border. Secondly, we do have money in the slaughter capacity fund for marketing beef. Some of that beef has to be inspected by federal inspectors, some by provincial inspectors in terms of the stamp.

The Manitoba consumer and the Canadian consumer are the real heroes in this very desperate situation. Manitoban and Can- adian consumers are consuming more than 62 percent more in July of this year than they did a year ago. Hooray for the consumers of Canada dealing with the Canadian beef. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the issue here is quite clear. You have the over-30-month cattle need a market. They need this provincial stamp of approval and guarantee. Consumers want food safety, assurance of fo od safety. Why is the Premier hesitant to provide a provincial guaran- tee that Manitoba beef is BSE free? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the first challenge we all have is to take those older cattle and cows and get them processed, either in places like Moose Jaw or Manitoba, increase the capacity here. That is the first challenge we have because we know if we get a positive position on the border on younger, the under-30-month animals, we are still going to be left with a huge chal- lenge with cattle here in Manitoba because of the fact that our slaughter capacity is down to under 20 000 a year.

So we are trying to target all of what we do to getting the older cattle processed in places like Moose Jaw, which we understand is retooling for that operation. Plants and producers have some ideas here in Manitoba. We are trying to do that more than anything else. Getting the Manitoba consumer to consume more Manitoba beef, we have a fund there. We have $100,000 there. I absolutely trust the Manitoba consumers to do that, but some packing houses will not take, will want to deal with all elements of the beef in terms of effi- ciency, not just one or two elements that might be available for consumers.

It looks simple on the surface but it is a challenge for all of us. Mr. Gerrard: I would ask the Minister of Agri- culture (Ms. Wowchuk), since the Premier did not give me a straight answer, I think it is quite important if we are going to market over-30- month beef that there be a guarantee of food safety. If the Government feels there needs to be extra measures and testing and so on in place then do it, but give us this guarantee. Let us have a provincial guarantee, because it is going to help the marketing. It is going to help the price of Manitoba beef and especially cows. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, in conversations we have had with the processors, they say we need more CFI inspectors, that we need the federal stamp. That is the advice we have received. We do have $100,000 on marketing, so the straight answer to the straight question is we have it, but

256 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 the advice we received is the CFI stamp and that is the advice I assume members opposite have had too. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, a great deal of attention has been focussed on the economic impact of the closure of the border to live cattle in Manitoba. Cattle producers are facing a desperate situation and the Minister of Agricu lture (Ms. Wowchuk) has failed to respond.

Of course, we know that the economic impact reaches beyond those directly involved in the cattle industry. We know there are a number of industries that are impacted and that are suffering as well. This morning I spoke with Desmond Plewman who operates the Grunthal Livestock Auction Mart. Mr. Plewman indicates that he has lost more than $100,000 since the border was closed on May 20. As well, Mr. Plewman says despite his best efforts he was forced to lay off eight part-time employees and downsize the jobs of eight other previously full-time employees. Mr.

Speaker, we are left to wonder if the Minister of Agriculture is willing to give up the auction industry like a previous NDP minister gave up the province's slaughter industry. Also this morning I heard from a local livestock trucking industry that indicated that 15 percent of their trucks and drivers were being impacted by the border closure. Is the minister prepared to save the industry and help these related industries as well? Her actions to date appear that the answer is no.

Perhaps the Minister of Agriculture herself should consider going into the business of auctioneering because her actions have brought to mind a very familiar phrase: Going, going, gone. * (14:20) Islendingadagurinn Mr. Peter Bjornson (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I am happy to report that the 114th Icelandic Festival of Manitoba, Islendingadagurinn, was once again an overwhelming success in Gimli, August 1 to 4. Many of the 50 000 visitors who attended this year's festival enjoyed a boat tour on the Viking Saga in the Gimli Harbour.

The 44-foot- long replica vessel was built by Newfoundland seafarer, Paul Compton, to honour Leif Ericsson and his crew of Vikings, reputedly the first Europeans to set foot in North America. The ship continues to be a tremendous tourist attraction, with the last tour scheduled this week, providing daily 90-minute rides to visitors who learn first-hand about the history of these rugged, ancient mariners. Complimenting the ship, the new Iceland Heritage Museum presented the Full Circle: First Contact exhi- bition, depicting the Viking struggle for survival in North America.

The annual celebrity concert this year featured many rising stars of the community. These talented young people, Janice Olson, Signy and Heida Arnason, Dustin Narfason, Kate Cordingly, Alex Specula, Lindsey Gudbjartson, Scott Petrowski and Brad Tole, were all former students of mine who have received musical training through the Gimli High School's award-winning band program under the direction of teacher, Mike Cherlet. Mr.

Speaker, I am proud to represent Gimli, and I wish to thank the community, the Icelandic Festival organizing committee and the many volunteers for this year's wonderful festival, especially the efforts of Icelandic Festival president Jim Arnason. I wish them very much success in planning for next year's 115th Islendingadagurinn. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, over the last several days and weeks across Manitoba we have heard the Government of Manitoba going across the province expound- ing the benefits of their loan program to save the cattle industry from the BSE crisis. We know that 12 000 farm families are involved in the

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 257 cattle industry in Manitoba and many of them are suffering the consequences of the border being closed. It is one thing for an organization or a company to step up and make an invest- ment, hoping and banking on the future, but when the border is shut down, their ability to either make money or lose money is completely gone. We know at the end of the day they will incur losses. Yesterday, I asked the Minister of Agri- culture (Ms.

Wowchuk) how many of the 12 000 people that are involved in the cattle industry have actually requested loan applications and how many have been approved. After dodging the question several times, the minister finally admitted that, of the 12 000 farmers that are in the cattle industry in Manitoba, approximately 100 applications have been processed and approved. I would suggest to you that this is not good enough. If the Minister of Agriculture, the Premier of Manitoba (Mr.

Doer) and this Government believe that 1 percent of any organization that is supposed to receive funding in a time of crisis, if 1 percent of those people only are able to access the program, I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the Government that the program has failed dramatically. I would ask that the Minister of Agriculture, the Premier and all the col- leagues of the current NDP government should go back and try and find the solution to this 1 percent solution that they have presented to the cattle producers of Manitoba. Emilie Livingstone Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I am honoured today to bring attention to the excellent achievement of Emilie Living- stone, a constituent in my riding. Emilie is a young rhythmic gymnast who, on Sunday, September 7, won the gold medallion, an achievement award certif icate awarded by the Manitoba Rhythmic Gymnastics Association. The Manitoba Rhythmic Gymnastics Asso- ciation, which was founded in 1969, has been providing leadership and programs in Manitoba communities for the development of recreational and competitive gymnasts in Manitoba.

A mem- ber club of the Rhythmic Gymnastics Asso- ciation is the home of the provincial and national team program located at the University of Man- itoba and is the home club of young Emilie Livingstone. This association has excelled in the task of helping to foster the talents of this young athlete. To attain her goals, training and com- peting are almost her full-time job and her hard work has yielded tremendous results. The gold medallion certificate being one of the many achievements for the young, stunning athlete.

She was also a member of the Canadian rhythmic gymnastics team which in 2003 attended the Pan Am Games in the Dominican Republic. In the group event at these games, her and her teammates received a bronze medal in the ball and hoop and in the ribbon event. Overall the Canadian team received a silver medal. At the Pan Am Games in Winnipeg she was part of the Canadian team that won the gold medal. She was also a member of Team Canada in the Sydney 2000 Olympics. I would also like to wish her good luck in the world championships in Hungary this fall which will act as a qualifier to the 2004 Olympics in Athens. Mr.

Speaker, these are remarkable mile- stones of athletic achievement that should be remembered. We should also remember the importance of sports in our community and the numerous sports associations which help to cultivate the athletic talents of our young people. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, during the summer I visited producers in many parts of Manitoba as well as feedlot operators and slaughter houses. I have great concern for those in Manitoba who have been adversely affected by the discovery of mad cow disease in the Canadian cow May 20.

We are now almost four months later and there remains much to be done to address the large impact to cattle, sheep, bison, elk and other producers, the feedlot operators and to others in many rural communities who are affected. The situation has been very considerably exacerbated by dry conditions in parts of Manitoba, including the Interlake, the region around Alonsa and parts of southwestern Manitoba as examples.

258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 Sadly neither the provincial nor the federal government has handled this as well as it might have been handled, but it is the provincial ac- tivities that are of particular concern to us here in this Legislature. The loan program has been put forward by the provincial government. It has been of some assistance, but it has had major problems in its delivery. The feed subsidy program is a reason- able program to start, but ending the program a month and a half before it was announced to be ended initially is inexcusable.

Sadly, the design of the program also sent a very negative message to those from other provinces investing in Man- itoba cattle. The provincial government has fought the federal government tooth and nail on the Agri- cultural Policy Framework and accused the federal government of blackmail, creating a toxic relationship between the two levels of government and delaying the delivery of cash to hard-strapped producers. It is time for all of us to support producers in their dire need and to sup- port rural communities struggling for survival.

I have called today for the provincial gov- ernment to undertake a marketing program with a stamp guaranteeing that Manitoba beef is BSE free. I believe this can be done and if measures need to be undertaken to make sure it can be done then let us do it. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meet- ing in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Could the Minister of Health tell us if he feels that the RHAs are adequately funded? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): We try to accommodate all of the needs and require- ments in an expanding health care system to the best of our fiscal ability. Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister meet reg- ularly with the RHAs? Mr.

Chomiak: I meet regularly with the council of CEOs and chairs. Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I have a constituent by the name of Doug Dowling and I have written to the minister about him and about his situation, about a month ago. His concern was with respect to the Quest Inn in Winnipeg which advertises itself as an assisted living centre. In fact they advertise themselves in the Winnipeg Seniors Housing Directory as an assisted living centre. That would lead one to believe that in fact they do offer some services there for seniors.

He feels because the Winnipeg Seniors Housing Directory listed them that, in fact, he was led to believe that there were some standards that were in place by the Province with respect to assisted living centres. His father suffered a stroke one day, in fact on January 5, and no one checked on him the entire day, even though meals are provided at that centre as part of the services they provide. It was only after his sister called from British Columbia to alert them of the fact that she had not heard from him that he was discovered, in this centre.

His concern was with respect to safety in a centre like that and the fa ct that after I looked through government regulations I discovered that there were no standa rds for assisted living centres in the province. His only recourse then, of course, is to sue the centre for lack of services. I do not think that is acceptable. I think any- one holding themselves out as an assisted living centre for seniors ought to meet some type of government standard. I am wondering whether the minister is going to be considering enacting standards for centres like this.

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 259 Mr. Chomiak: It is correct that we do not fund or license assisted living centres. I will take the member's suggestion under advice. Mr. Hawranik: A second concern I have is with respect to per-capita funding for health asso- ciations. NEHA receives, from what I can under- stand, the lowest per-capita funding in the province for that area. We have some areas of the province, some rural areas of the province that receive double the per-capita funding.

The city of Winnipeg, even though there are some economies of scale, of course, because of the size of the population in the city of Winnipeg, receives substantially more funding than NEHA does. I am concerned about that. I ask the min- ister whether or not you review that per-capita funding annually and whether you would be prepared to look at a more equitable funding formula particularly with respect to NEHA? Mr. Chomiak: A couple of points for the member. I have had the debate with some of the member's colleagues about their particular re- gions on previous years of Estimates on numer- ous times.

We review funding to regions on an annual basis. We do not fund on a per-capita basis. I might point out as well, the city of Winnipeg provides at least 30 percent of its capacity to centres outside of the Perimeter Highway. We do try to fund them as fairly as possible and in equity and in fairness. The regions have received increases over the years. Now, I have had this discussion quite regularly. I have had several discussions with several of the rural backbenchers in other regions who have made the argument on per- capita basis. We do not fund on a per-capita basis.

We do fund on a regular basis and we fund on a needs basis and we try to be as fair and equitable as possible. If one were to compare solely on a per- capita basis I am not sure that one would necessarily grasp both the needs and require- ments in a particular region if one were to go to a per-capita form of funding. It simply would not capture the health needs or the quality of care required in a particular region based on the makeup of that region. Mr. Hawranik: The Lac du Bonnet constit- uency is a rather large geographical area of the province. We currently have three hospitals within that region.

First of all, Beausejour and Pine Falls are both regional hospitals, the third being the Pinawa Hospital. NEHA has requested a study to be done with respect to making a third regional hospital by either replacing the existing Pinawa hospital or renovating the existing Pinawa hospital to ensure that it remains viable and to ensure that it becomes a regional hospital. Is the minister aware of that proposal? Is he aware of the study and the results of the study, and, if so, how long will it take for approval, and is he considering approving that hospital for Pinawa? Mr.

Chomiak: I am aware of that particular request. It would probably surprise the member to know that there is virtually no region–let me think if I can come up with a region in the province that has not had a request for a capital hospital construction project. There is not one region that I can think of off the top of my head. I am aware of the request and some of the requirements. I had the pleasure of attending the opening of the new Beausejour Hospital as well as some of the other facilities in the area and that we are aware of the need s and the requirements of the area. It is within our planning process. Mr.

Hawranik: Recently, I had a personal experience in terms of my family's experience with the health system in that my father-in-law, my wife's father, in fa ct, was diagnosed with cancer. While we sometimes look at lineups and waiting lists for tests, we do not often focus on when the results are available after the test.

I can tell you that within a few days he was able to get a CAT scan in Selkirk, which I was really impressed with, but after that CAT scan and while he was still suffering–we thought he was suffering from cancer–it took three weeks before the test results became available because they were sent to Winnipeg and interpreted and sent to the family doctor. We often look at the lineups that we have for the tests but often we do not look at how quick those test results become available. I am not sure whether the minister has any plans on reviewing those kinds of procedures to shorten

260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 the waiting lists and shorten the time it takes to get a test result. Mr. Chomiak: I appreciate the member's comments. The member does identify an issue that has been a significant issue in the province for 10 or 15 years. That is a need and a require- ment to have the ability to have a province-wide network that would provide for interpretative results online, on time with respect to test results, et cetera, because the member does illus- trate a problem, not just isolated to rural and northern Manitoba, but, in fact, it occurs in the city of Winnipeg.

Part of our DSM proposal is designed to have a province-wide network of lab and test results that can be accessible across the province. I might add that I will pass on the comments and as well the point with regard to CancerCare Manitoba. One of the newer initiatives of the Government has recently been to have Cancer- Care Manitoba have an outreach, a Telehealth capacity across Manitoba which we intend to link up and continue to expand in the future.

But your point with respect to the lab results issue, without going into a long history of this issue, which I could but I will not, it has been a long- standing issue and we are taking some action to remedy that situation. Mr. Hawranik: I would like to ask the minister, and this question, I think, goes towards account- ability of the health associations. I can tell him that since being elected in March of last year, I have written three or four letters to NEHA re- questing information. I have yet to receive a response, three or four letters and I have not had a response.

I did write to the minister, as you know, about a couple of months ago with respect to an issue with Pine Falls District Ambulance. We tried to get a meeting with the minister with respect to that ambulance on an issue that some of the municipalities had identified. It was only after we pressed your office to ask for an answer that in fact the NEHA executive director finally called me and gave me an explanation, but he told me why he was calling me was because you had requested him to do so. I think that just shows a lack of accountability.

I am the elected member over there in Lac du Bonnet, along with other members that represent NEHA, and I think that the response to my letters was terrible. I cannot get an answer out of them. They do not respond to my letters and they do not respond to my calls. I wonder if the minister can look into that. Mr. Chomiak: I will pass on your comments to the NEHA authorities. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I have a question for the minister regarding an incident that happened within my constituency on August 4 at the Mennonite Heritage Village museum during the Pioneer Days celebration.

The letter was brought forward to me actually by a constituent of the Member for La Verendrye (Mr. Lemieux). My understanding from the individual named Paul Yaworsky is that he has provided the Member for La Verendrye a copy of the letter, and he indicated that one had gone to your office as well, Mr. Minister. I certainly have a copy of the letter here. I do not expect on the spur of the moment you will remember it, but I will pass it down here for your information. In essence, what happened on August 4 at the museum in Steinbach is that a 911 call went out from a volunteer, Mr. Yaworsky, who works for St.

John Ambulance services. He was volunteering there on the weekend. The 911 call came from a cell phone which was then routed. The call was picked up in Brandon. Mr. Yaworsky asked that an ambulance be dispatched to the museum in Steinbach, but instead he was transferred to the 911 centre in Winnipeg, I gather. He repeated his request, then, that he needed an ambulance at the museum in Steinbach. The call was then transferred back to Bran don where he explained the situation once more. At that time, he was put on hold for five minutes on the 911 call. It is not surprising that Mr.

Yaworsky has significant concerns about the situation. He states in his letter that you have in front of you that, if the reaction had been more severe, it is possible, most likely he says, that the individual would have died due to the delays. * (14:50) There are two questions I think specifically that arise from here. One is the nature of 911

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 261 calls that come as a result of cell phone calls and how they are routed and, secondly, the delay of five minutes that took place in getting a connection through to get the ambulance dis- patched. Being on hold for five minutes on 911 certainly is not acceptable. I know we all would have been saddened had the result been different. Mr. Chairperson: I would like to draw the Member for Steinbach's attention to this. As a new member, you probably are not aware, but if you quote a letter, a private letter, it should be tabled–[interjection].

I thank the Member for Steinbach. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the member. He does rightly identify an issue with respect to cell phones. This specific reply to the member's letter will be answered with specific points. I just want to point out that we are in the process of establishing an overall call centre in Brandon, Manitoba, that is going to be re- sponsible for emergency dispatch outside of Winnipeg across the province. Mr. Goertzen: When a call is dispatched off the 911 call, is it possible for the operator to deter- mine then where the call is coming from?

The minister suggested a new system will be coming in place. Will it then be possible to determine where the call is coming from? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will clarify that specific point to the member, but I should point out that one of the purposes for the estab- lishment of a centralized system dispatch and conveyance system in Brandon is to try to remedy the gaps in the system that occur as a result of differing juri sdictions and differing difficulties. We do have a plan, and we are in the process of developing that in Brandon. Mr.

Goertzen: So I will trust then that the minister is going to endeavour to look more specifically into this particular instance and respond back to both Mr. Yaworsky and to myself as well. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Chairperson, the June 20, 2003, issue of the Rural News put out by the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada refers to a Manitoba study that indicates that people in Winnipeg continue to improve their health status while rural Manitobans' health status has been enerally unchanged in the last 15 years. g We know that low population density and isolation result in unique challenges in de- livering health care to rural as compared to urban Canadians.

In order to resolve these issues, we must recognize and incorporate these differences nto our planning processes. i The health care system will be sustainable only if realistic changes are based upon accurate information. For one, the role of the small, rural hospital needs to be better understood before we can make the right decisions. It has been a place to be born, a place to die and many things in between. It has played a distinct but not well understood economically and socially stabilizing community function that its larger counterparts do not.

We must think very carefully before we take these institutions away from rural Manitobans. There is no single or simple pana- cea. I think we all know that. Technology is an ad junctive tool for the practice of rural medicine. It is not a substitute for the skilled rural physician or nurse who can lay hands on. Mr. Justice Emmett Hall, I think, says it best. Every citizen in Canada should have equal access to health care regardless of where they live.

Anybody cannot say, out of one side of their mouth, that they support medicare and the principles it stands for and then, out of the other side of their mouth, say that rural hospitals will be closed. Closing a hospital will cause eco- nomic and civic hardship in rural communities. Jobs will be lost. Physicians will move away and people will have to travel greater distances to get care, often from strangers. The chronically ill and infirm elderly are at particular risk and will move away from their friends, their families and homes to be closer to hospitals.

I have seen that happen in a number of rural communities including my own former ommunity. c * (15:00) Closing rural hospitals will lead to increased transportation costs for the patients and families

262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 personally, well beyond what urban patients and families must pay. Rural physicians have indicated there is the hidden cost of adverse outcomes caused by having to ship patients for care. They say that obstetrics is an example where the absence of local maternity services is shown to increase prem aturity of newborns, hospitilizations and costs even if the referral hospital is of the highest standard. The optimal number, size and distribution of hospitals is not known.

With inadequate infor- mation and evident concerns about access to care and quality, we should be cautions in closing rural hospitals. Rural peoples are already under- serviced and should not have to take the brunt of cuts. Rural RHAs are already on record saying they have not been treated as fairly as urban RHAs. Allan Rock, when he was the federal Min- ister of Health, said, quot e: The real threat of two-tiered health care in Canada is not rich and poor nor have and have-nots, it is rural and urban.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health if there is any rural health delivery research cur- rently being carried out by his department. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I might add to the member's comments, when the member talks about rural Manitoba, the member could also add, I am sure we would all agree that in northern Manitoba the situation is even more acute. There are 5 in 10 000 communities that do not even have access to nursing stations on occasion, never mind hospitals, that do not have access to primary care. I think we all agree that it is a goal of all of us to preserve access to health care.

I certainly concur with the member's comment. I should tell the member that the Filmon government undertook an assessment of rural hospitals. The most in-dep th assessment of rural hospitals done was undertaken by the Filmon government. It was called Assessing the Per- formance of Rural and Northern Hospitals in Manitoba: A First Look. It was commissioned in 1996-97 by several members when they were in government that came out and did an assessment of all of the smaller and all of the rural hospitals in the province of Manitoba.

I am sure the member has access to this study, which was the most extensive of its kind, that looked at rural hospitals and northern hospitals in Manitoba, looked at the need, looked at the frequency, looked at the use, looked at the volume. The Filmon government undertook that study and provided that study that is utilized by most individuals when they review the situation in Manitoba as the most recent template and review of the situation, but most observers, as a template for the situation in Manitoba, the report commissioned by the Filmon government. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Chairperson, I certainly do recognize, as the minister does, the significance and importance of the northern hospitals. That is very clear by a lot of th e information out there, how integral the hospitals are to rural Manitoba. I do acknowledge that, but that is not where we are hearing of hospital closures. Right now we are hearing of hospital closures in rural Manitoba. I would like to ask the Minister of Health: With some of the challenges being faced by rural RHAs, has the minister worked with them and rural citizens to develo p a collaborative vision for any rural health reform? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, I am glad the member asked that question, because so much of our energy over the last four years has been devoted to rural Manitoba and providing new services in place. Let me just cite, for example, the first off-site dialysis unit construc ted in the north, repatriating surgery for the first time in over a decade to rural Manitoba, to Steinbach, to Ste. Anne, to Thompson, Manitoba. Let us not forget the significance of the programs that we brought back after the cuts of the Filmon government with respect to pro- grams, the fact that we have increased the enrolment.

The former government cut the enrol- ment in medical school by 15 in 1992-93. In fact, there are members sitting at this table who were members of that Cabinet that made that decision to cut the enrolment at the medical school at that time.

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 263 If we had those students, Mr. Chairperson, Manitoba students now, we would have a hundred more Manitoba doctors available. For- tunately, we reversed that and we also– [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order. I would like to take a moment to remind all members, honourable members on both sides of the table to please address their question through the Chair, please. I ask for the co-operation of all members in this matter. You will get your chance to debate when you ask your question. Thank you. Would the honourable minister please con- tinue. Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair- person. Not only have we expanded the enrol- ment at the college, we are also expanding it by another 15, as well as residency positions. For the first time in Manitoba history, an Office of Rural and Northern Health to deal with doctors and doctor shortages; for the first time in Manitoba history, an IMG program that takes foreign trained doctors, something that never happened over 11 years, train them, provide them with a program, and those people are practising in rural Manitoba right now as we speak. Not only are they practising, but there are a number in training.

In addition, the number of nurses that have been trained, the program that members opposite oppose, the bringing back of the diploma pro- gram– * (15:10) Point of Order Mr. Chairperson: The Member for Charles- wood, on a point of order. Mrs. Driedger: The minister is going on again putting false information on the record. The statement that he just made, he cannot back that up, because no statements have been made. He continues to say this on an ongoing basis. I would ask him to put accurate information on the record and quit trying to mislead. Mr.

Chomiak: I recall the rally that was held here at the Legislature where the Member for River East went out front and supported the baccalaureate program in lieu of the diploma program, Mr. Chairperson. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. An Honourable Member: Of course, Bonnie, of course. Mr. Chairperson: We cannot continue if we cannot hear each other. On the same point of order, the Member for River East. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels on (River East): Mr.

Chairperson, again the Minister of Health, because he is incapable of answering and de- fending the actions of his department, likes to deflect away from the issues at hand and answer the questions. I think that shows much disrespect to the many patients and people that need the health care system when he does not want to sit in his chair and be accountable to those people. Mr.

Chair, I just wanted to indicate as a registered nurse, I am extremely supportive of registered nurses and programming and always have been, so I would hope that the minister would take answers to questions that are being asked seriously rather than trying to manipulate the process and deflect away from being ac- countable to Manitobans for the shoddy health care that he and his department are providing. Mr. Chairperson: On the point of order raised, there is no point of order.

It is a dispute of the facts, and I thank all of the members for the contribution, but I would like to caution all members on the language that they use in their debate here. I thank you. * * * Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister, con- tinue. Mr. Chomiak: Just to continue with the incredible investment and reinvestment in rural Manitoba that has taken place in the last four years, I look around and see new hospitals in Beausejour, Gimli, Morden, Winkler, Brandon; returned surgeries to Ste. Anne, Steinbach,

264 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 Thompson; 70 new ambulances. The number of doctors has increased in rural Manitoba.

We have established the Office of Rural and Northern Health; doubled and tripled the number of nurses enrolled in programs after they had been cut; brought back the medical technologist program that had been cut by members opposite to train medical technologists so they could go into rural Manitoba; a bursary program for doctors who practise in rural and remote centres, which was not in place under members opposite; an expanded enrolment program; an Office of Rural and Northern Health; an IMG program; an expanded family residency program–all not in place when members opposite were in power.

More doctors in urban Manitoba; more doctors in rural Manitoba; the first MRA to be installed outside of Winnipeg; expanding Health Links to ensure 24-hour, seven-day-a-week information available around Manitoba; palli- ative care across Manitoba. I could go on and on talking about the way we have reinvested, redeveloped and put resources back into rural Manitoba, but it would probably take the balance of the Estimates period this afternoon. Mr. Chairperson: I would like to take a mo- ment here to remind all honourable members to please provide the courtesy of your attention to the member who has the floor.

Please respect the person that has the floor. If we do not do that, we cannot continue becaus e we cannot hear each other. Mrs. Driedger: The minister and Premier (Mr. Doer) are on record that rural hospitals will not be closed, yet he is sitting back silently while RHA officials are saying the opposite. A couple of questions here: Is there a hidden agenda here to close the hospitals and is the minister allow- ing this to happen through decisions of the RHA and distancing himself from them, and if that is his policy, why is there not a greater voice from him about his position? Mr.

Chomiak: The same accusation was made by members opposite four years ago; we did not close any hospitals, and that remains our policy. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I just heard the minister say something about that the closing of rural hospitals is not the Government's policy. I used to hear the Premier of Saskatchewan, Roy Romanow, say the same thing at the same time he was closing rural hospitals. He closed 52 rural hospitals in Saskatchewan. Today, we have the Premier, Gary Doer, and Dave Chomiak, the minister– Mr.

Chairperson: I would like to caution the member that we address all speakers by their constituency or portfolio. Thank you. Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I respect that. I will reiterate it was the Premier and the Minister of Health in this province who are beginning to close rural facilities in Man- itoba. We are going down the same path as Saskatchewan did. I want to ask the Minister of Health if, in fact, he and his Premier are committed to no closures of rural hospitals, why the Erickson hospital has closed? Mr. Chomiak: The Erickson hospital was closed in 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001.

The first three years it was due to shortages. The most recent one was due to nurse shortages. The closure of the emergency service at Erickson has been occasioned by the fact that a doctor on August 26, I believe, tendered his resignation. It has been a constant problem in Erickson for a number of years and has been dealt with, as the member knows full well, for well over a decade with respect to Erickson hospital off and on in terms of the Erickson hospital, per se, and has been a continuing problem. We have managed to deal with it over the past four years, and we continue to deal with it. Mr.

Derkach: I heard the member from Dauphin's legislative assistant say "right" to the minister's approach to this. That is a tragedy because the RHA has clearly indicated to the community and indeed the minister has received a copy of that indication where the hospital is going to be now run as a northern nursing unit, not as a hospital any longer. As a matter of fact, just two weeks ago we had a couple of doctors come through the community that were interested in locating in Erickson; however, they were told by the RHA, an instrument of the Government, that they would not be allowed to do on-call and

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 265 emergency services in Erickson, that in fact their on-call would have to be done in Minnedosa. There is a contradiction here between what the RHA is saying and what the minister is saying. Now, Mr. Chair, it is obvious that by using the excuse that you cannot recruit doctors to a community, the minister now has a con- venient tool to close the hospital because his RHA will simply not recruit for that community. And the CEO of the RHA told the community very clearly that Erickson is not a priority in doctor recruitment.

As a matter of fact, they were told that if a doctor recruited for Erickson his on-call would have to be done in Minnedosa. Now, what does that tell the citizens of Erickson? Does it say that this is a temporary closing because of temporary staff shortages? No, it says that this is a permanent closure. The Health Authority there has made their decision. I spoke to an official from the Health Authority, and I reminded the official that the Premier (Mr. Doer) of our province said that there will be no hospital closures in Manitoba.

He said that in Rivers, and when he was challenged that if an RHA were to close the facility, then what would the Premier have to say, he said: We sign the cheque. Today, we have a different scenario. Just three short months after the last election, we have this minister, in collusion with the RHAs, now moving forward on an agenda to close rural hospitals, the first of which is Erickson. In my constituency alone, Mr. Chair, there are three hospitals that face the same prospect now. They are Rossburn and Birtle.

As a matter of fact, the CEO of the RHA has already met with the community of Russell, telling them that if Birtle and Rossburn close, then Russell will be a great beneficiary of that, because they will be allowed to expand their services to accept the clients from Rossburn and from Birtle.

That tells me that there is an agenda by this Government and by this minister to close those facilities permanently, yet in the report that was referenced by the minister today, Birtle was used as a model in terms of a hospital operating in this province, and yet today their doctor gave notice last December, which gave the RHA a year to recruit a doctor, and they have not done anything in progress to that end. So, Mr. Chair, I want to ask the minister again: Why is he and his Premier closing rural hospitals? Mr. Chomiak: The

preamble to the member's question contained a whole series of conjecture and some inaccuracies, which I will endeavour to outline to the member. As I understand it, the RHA had two phy- sicians who they recruited to the region who actually went to another region in the province. The Member for Russell seems to think he knows the reason why. * (15:20) Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, can the mem- ber not restrain himself and allow me to answer the question? Mr. Chairperson: Honourable minister, con- tinue, please. Mr.

Chomiak: One of the problems that has been identified and has been very clear both in Erickson and other small hospitals is the one-two rota that is a concern. It is very difficult for doctors to be on 24-hour call all the time. That has been a difficulty that has been identified. But I might point out to the member, the member himself knows that we have indicated that we want and we have desired for the region to hire a second physician, and when that occurs the ER would be reinstated. The member knows that. So I do not know why the member goes on and on putting these facts on the record. Mr.

Derkach: I put facts on the record because they are true. The minister talks about the difficulty of a rota. This is another excuse that the health region is using. Prior to the doctor giving his resignation who lived in Erickson, there were two doctors. If the doctor team that were interested in coming to Erickson had actually settled in Erickson there would have been three doctors. One of the two doctors

266 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 would have agreed to go on rota in Erickson. But they were not allowed to. They said if you were going to go on an on-call basis, you would have to go to Minnedosa, and that is what the doctor who is currently in Erickson has been told, that if he wants to go on on-call, he has to go to Minnedosa. Once again the minister does not know what he is talking about. He does not know his own RHA's directive that has been given to this com- munity.

The minister says that they will recruit actively for Erickson, yet Erickson community has been told that they are not a priority, that their hospital will be run as a pilot project, as a northern nursing station. The minister got that information from the RHA. It was circulated in the community, and he got a copy of it. He can stand up and say, well, my intentions and my policy, but his actions are different. Rural hospitals are an important link to the life of the community. Maybe the minister does not understand it because he lives in the city, but rural people understand it.

There is a fear amongst the rural people in these com- munities because their services are being taken away. The other thing is that we have insured services now being replaced by fee-for-service. This is a two-tier system in health care in this province that is being forced upon the people by this Government, this minister and his admin- istration. If an ambulance is required to take a person from their home to the Erickson Hospital, that is at the cost of the patient.

Because there is no on- call, because there is no emergency service or acute care in Erickson, that patient has to be moved to Minnedosa or to Brandon. That comes at the patient's cost. They have been told in the Erickson community that when that person has had their initial emergency needs looked after, they will be moved back to their community hospital once again at the cost of that patient. If there is a complication and that patient has to go back to a facility that has acute care, that will be done at the cost of the patient. So, Mr.

Chair, the health system is saving dollars on the backs of patients in these small communities. I wonder how much money will actually be saved by the department or the RHA by the closure of these ru ral facilities compared to the total budget of the department, when you consider the emotional impact, the stress, the services that are actually being taken away from rural people.

I know that there are some realities that we have to face with regard to rural facilities, but no plan, no consultation has ever taken place with the people in Erickson, in Rossburn, and in Birtle–those are three of my communities–no consultation where people have sat down and said: How are we going to deal with the issues of not being able to provide some of these services right here at home? Instead there has been an autocratic directive given to the community that this is the way it is going to be, and you can explain it.

They said to the councils: You can explain it to your people, we do not have time to do this. Now, who has responsibility for the de- livery? Is that not why we went to regional health? Is that not why we said we needed regional health boards, so that services could actually be closer to the people that need them? And what are we doing today? We are forcing these people to go to communities like Brandon to get their health needs met. I ask you: How much more can the facility in Brandon absorb of the rural needs that are out there before we cannot deal with the situations that we have there?

Now the minister can point to the fact that, oh, we have trouble getting doctors, recruiting doctors. I can tell you of a case where a nurse moved into the area, went to the RHA, asked if there were vacancies–she was looking for full- time work–was told, no, there are no vacancies here. She was turned away. She got a job in Brandon, and yet we are told that we cannot recruit nurses for rural facilities. Well, no wonder we cannot recruit them, when there is an attitude and a concerted effort without any discussion, without any planning, without laying out any plans for rural fa cilities to close rural facilities.

I can understand why the minister

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 267 wants to close them out in my area, because he and his Government desperately tried to win a seat in that area, could no t, and so this area does not mean much to this minister and it does not mean much to his Government. This is punish- ment politics of the finest kind. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. We will not continue if we have several speakers speaking at once. Mr. Derkach: Now, Mr. Chair– Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me, I have not completed my statement here. We can only have one person speaking. Let us just respect the person who is speaking, all right?

Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apol- ogize to this body if I seem a little bit emotional about this issue, but if you were to deal with the people in these communities who have located, whose families are there, you would understand.

When I have a man who comes into the Erickson facility with a blood clot and is then sent home because he was misdiagnosed, not by a doctor, he was misdiagnosed by an emergency services worker, and then ends up in Brandon with the threat of losing his leg because he was mis- diagnosed because his rural facility was not able to provide the doctor's services that are required, then that is the kind of trauma and emotion that families just cannot deal with. There is no need to have second-class citizens in this province. There should be equal access to medicine and to medical services throughout this province.

Yes, I have sympathy for the people in northern Manitoba as well, but we have swung the pendulum too far. I today appeal to this minister to not just state what his policy and his intentions are but to indeed take action and to give a directive to the RHA that this business of closure of hospitals is not acceptable and that we have to have a plan before we alter the services that are given to rural Manitobans. Thank you. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the member for that speech. Let me just talk about a couple of examples in rural Manitoba that members opposite have raised before.

Let us talk about Stonewall. Every time there is a physician problem in Stonewall, and I sat down with the former Member for Lakeside and we looked at the situation in Stonewall, hanging on to the docs and keeping the ERs open, and we worked out an arrangement where Stonewall stayed open because there was movement of doctors and we were able to stabilize it. When members opposite closed Gladstone ER in 1997 and then promised someday to open the ER, they did not do that when members were sitting around the Cabinet table. We have been trying to do that.

In fact we are working on a pilot now to do the ER opening at Gladstone Hospital. When members opposite closed the ER at Gladstone Hospital, I did not see the Member for Roblin-Russell standing up in the Legislature and talking to the then-Health Minister and say- ing: Why are you doing this, why are you closing rural hospitals? The Member for Roblin- Russell was nowhere to be heard. He was a member of Cabinet that made that decision. We are a member of a government that are trying to reopen that ER in Gladstone and are attempting to do it.

I have talked to other members of this member's caucus who have different views on which hospital should stay open or not, and I understand that. It is a very important issue, and it is a very local issue, and it is a very province- wide issue. This Government has not closed any hospitals during the four years and it is not our intention–[interjection]–Erickson. The member says we closed Erickson. Let me just point out a couple of points to the member.

Erickson was closed on a temporary basis in '98; it was closed on a temporary basis in '99; it was closed on a temporary basis in 2000, and it was closed on a temporary basis in 2001. Each time, when we were government, we took steps to deal with this situation. I indicate to the member opposite, even though we have recruited more doctors in rural Manitoba and have more doctors than we did when that member left office, even though we have that, it continues to be a challenge. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Please respect the speaker that has the floor. We have too many conversations going on across the table.

If you wish to have your own debate, you can sit at the

268 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 chairs along the side or at the back so that we just have one conversation going on at one time. Mr. Chomiak: Unfortunately, over the four years, despite increasing demands, we have managed to in fact enhance services in a number of centres, including Telehealth. Does the mem- ber recognize additional surgeries outside of Winnipeg for the first time? Does the member recognize that as not a commitment to rural Manitoba? Does the member not recognize the additional 15 family-residency positions as not a commitment to rural Manitoba?

Does the mem- ber not recognize the Office of Rural and Northern Health? Does the member not recog- nize the bursary program? Does the member not recognize the IMG program? Does the member not recognize the rotating LPN program across the province? Does the member not recognize the new facilities in Brandon and in Beausejour and in Boundary Trails and under construction in Swan River? Well, Mr.

Chairperson, if the member does not recognize that, then we are not going to get anywhere in this conversation, because the mem- ber seems to be of the view that he has put on the record, and I have said before and I have said consistently what our position is, and I have indicated that to the member and I continue to indicate that to the member. * (15:30) Mr. Chairperson: Before I recognize the Mem- ber for Russell, it is hard to hear the conver- sation if we have a conversation going on across the table. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chair, I recognize the fact that the minister has indeed moved ahead in some areas such as Telehealth. Certainly, that does not indicate in any way my not recognizing the fact that there are good things happening in some of our rural hospitals. I am talking about the closure of facilities like Erickson, Birtle and Rossburn. We are not talking about Stonewall; we are not talking about Gladstone. I can talk about Gladstone, because, as the member would know and should acknowledge, the reason Gladstone was closed–and the member from that area would know better than I do–was because of human resource shortages.

They were told that once those shortages were reversed, that, indeed, that facility would open. That is a reality throughout the area, the reason Erickson was closed in '98, the reason it was closed in '99, for those same reasons. But those were temporary closings. Today they have been told in the Erickson community that their closure is permanent. The communities of Rossburn and Birtle, although they have not been told this, have been signalled that, by having the RHA go to the Russell community and tell them that indeed they would be getting the emergency calls from Rossburn and from Birtle. So, Mr.

Chair, what does that say to those communities? Does it say that their facilities are going to be open? Does it say that these are temporary closings? No. It says that their closings are permanent. When Erickson was told that their hospital would be run as a northern nursing unit, does that suggest a temporary closing? I do not think so. Mr. Chair, we can go all over the map. We can talk about Telehealth and we can talk about all of those wonderful services that Manitobans are indeed worthy of and deserve and have a right to.

That is a responsibility of the depart- ment, but, at the same time, when you have the closures of those kinds of facilities–I want to make the minister aware that the hospital in Erickson, during the summer months, would serve a population of approximately 45 000 people. That is as many people in that region as you have in the city of Brandon. That is not to be disputed. That population is there. It is in Clear Lake. It is in Onanole. It is in Lake Audy. It is in those lakes surrounding that community. So that is a very important facility to the people in that region.

Now, staff and the minister can stand here and sit here and think that we are just talking through our hats, but we are not. These com- munities are resolved to making sure that they have services accessible to them that any other Manitoban has, and to date that is not the case. The minister made reference to more ambu- lances in our province. I want to tell the minister about a personal experience I had with more

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 269 ambulances in our provin ce. There happened to be a rodeo in Onanole, Manitoba. The ambu- lance personnel there were supposed to be from Erickson. When I arrived at the rodeo, I noticed that the ambulance personnel were not from Erickson; indeed they were from Shoal Lake. So I asked why Shoal Lake ambulance personnel were at the rodeo in Onanole, a long way away from the Erickson hospital or even Minnedosa, I said, because Erickson just got a new ambulance or two. They said, sure, ambulances are fine, but you need people to run them.

We do not have any staff to run these ambulances. So, although the minister can talk about new ambulances, when you do not have the staff to run them, you are not providing the services that people need. The ambulances sitting in garages do not serve Manitobans. At the same time, if someone had had a heart attack in a community like Horod– nobody here knows where Horod is, do you? [interjection] Oh, the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struther

s) does. There was no ambulance to respond to the needs of that community unless it came out of Minnedosa, and that is over an hour away. You are too late to save that person's life. The Member for Dauphin can smile at that if he likes, but that is not a very happy situation for the people in that surrounding area, and I know he does not mean that.

All I am asking is that the people around this table, the legislators around this table, who have a responsibility to make the decisions, consider the difficulties of rural li fe and consider the fact that these people deserve access to the services that all other Manitobans receive, and that is just not happening. So, Mr. Chair, I direct my comments back to the Minister of Health in asking him why he and his Premier (Mr. Doer) are allowing the Erickson hospital, the Rossburn hospital and the Birtle hospital to close. Mr.

Chomiak: I think the member made the point very clear when he talked about Gladstone and the decisions that he made when he was in Cabinet with his colleagues with respect to Gladstone. [interjection] The member said he did not make the decision; his Government made the decision. Regardless of the point, the fact was he was a member of Executive Council that made the decision based on human resources, and he admitted it here. It is a challenge. It is a chal- lenge across the province of Manitoba. That is why we have expanded training right across the province.

That is why we have more doctors; that is why we have more nurses; that is why we have more lab techs; that is why we expanded the training in every single area to deal with the situations. Several years ago, when Erickson closed, it was because of a nursing difficulty. Before that it was a doctor difficulty, and before that it was a doctor difficulty. It continues to be a challenge in all places of Manitoba, Mr. Chairperson. That is why we have taken so many steps to deal with human resources, and that is why we continue to adopt the policies that we have.

We continue to work to ensure, as I said before, that there have not been any closures during our tenure in office and it is not our intention to have any closures during our tenure in office of hospitals. * (15:40) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I ask the minister very straightforwardly: Will you commit to the community of Erickson, Rossburn and Birtle that their hospital, and I am talking about their hospital, will not close and that there will be an active recruitment for physicians and nurses as required for those facilities to keep them open, offering emergency services and on-call in those facilities? Mr.

Chomiak: The member knows full well that the RHA has been directed to recruit for Erickson and will continue to do so. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I will ask the minister again. So is he prepared to guarantee to the citizens of Erickson, Rossburn and Birtle that his directive to the RHA will stand in that recruitment of physicians and personnel to keep emergency services and on-call, as it was before, open in those facilities? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the member's side of the Gladstone example is a perfect example of the members closing an ER and indicating the ER would open when the

270 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 personnel were there and we are in the process of doing that. Mr. Derkach: I do not know, Mr. Chair. The minister seems somewhat delusionary. I am ask- ing about Erickson, Rossburn and Birtle, Mani- toba. Is the minister prepared to commit today to those communities that indeed there will be an active recruitment for physicians to ensure that those facilities will remain as hospitals offering emergency and on-call services for the citizens of those communities? Mr. Chomiak : Mr.

Chairperson, I will go one further and I will read from a letter from the chief administrative officer of the Town of Erickson where he quotes the member saying: We understand from conversation with Len Derkach–that is the member from Roblin- Russell–that you have said that when we have a second doctor that our emergency and doctor on- call will be reinstated at the Erickson Hospital. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, if that is indeed the minister's commitment that there will be an active recruitment by the RHA for the Erickson, Rossburn and Birtle hospitals, then I will take the minister at his word.

But I want him to clear up the contradiction that is out there between the Health Department and the RHA because the RHA had indicated to the community of Erickson that they will not be recruiting for that community as a community that will have emergency and on-call services. If the minister is telling me today that that is a reversal, that indeed the RHA will be directed to recruit actively, then I congratulate the minister and I certainly support him. Mr.

Chomiak: I will again go back to the statement that was made from the Member for Roblin-Russell and from the chief administrative officer of the Town of Erickson: We understand from conversations with Len Derkach that you have said that when we have a second doctor that our emergency doctor on-call will be re- instated at the Erickson Hospital–quoting the Member for Roblin-Russell. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I do not want to leave this topic without being very clear about what that means.

Does that mean that the minister and his department are committed to reinstating emergency and on-call services in Erickson, Rossburn and Birtle when, in Erickson's case, the second doctor is recruited and, in Rossburn's case and Birtle's case, doctors are recruited. Mr. Chomiak: I stand by the commitment that was made, and was made in the member's own words, to the Town of Erickson. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I will paraphrase the commitment made by the minister.

My under- standing is that when a second doctor is re- cruited for the community of Erickson, on-call and emergency services in Erickson will be reinstated, and when the doctors who have now given resignations in Rossburn and in Birtle are replaced, then those full services that those communities have at the present time will also e reinstated. b I understand that is the commitment of the minister, and I expect that the minister will give that directive to the RHA. I want to say, if that is indeed the minister's commitment today, I not only support him, I congratulate him for taking that stand. Thank you. Mrs.

Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Health care is seen as a fundamental need in the growth and maintenance of life in rural Manitoba and in the communities it represents. It is part of the quality of life that citizens enjoy in their homes and communities, away from the larger towns and cities of Manitoba. This thought was reinforced by the Premier (Mr. Do er) when he made an election stop in Rivers mere days before the provincial election. This community is very concerned with the uncertainty they are presently facing with their facility.

They have indicated that the status of their health facility is at risk, and the replacement or renovation of the facility is unknown. They have raised over $410,000 over three years and this process started with the encouragement of the previous RHA before the malgamation. a Can the Minister of Health confirm that the Riverdale health centre will be maintained as a 16-bed acute care hospital with the full services that have been historically provided? Mr. Chomiak: I believe that when the Premier attended at Rivers, he gave a commitment to the maintaining of the facility at Rivers.

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 271 Mrs. Rowat: There have been a number of com- munities in the western area that have had their medical staff resign and leave the communities and one of the communities is Wawanesa which has had a family there for 30-some years, which is exceptional. Communities like Wawanesa feel vulnerable in their role for retaining the health care facilities, and they feel threatened by the things that are happening at this present time. Changes are being made in these facilities which will diminish their role in the communities.

My question to the minister would be: What proactive measures are you taking to ensure that there will be no loss of services in these com- munities and that you are going to show some leadership with the RHA and ensure that the physicians are recruited for this facility? Mr. Chomiak: In a highly unusual situation, Mr. Chairperson, three members of one family are the practising physicians in that particular community, and the parents and the son have tendered their resignations. We have already recruited a replacement doctor for Wawanesa. Mrs. Rowat: One doctor in Wawanesa.

They are still short at least one, one and a half [interjection]. Well, they will be at the end of this month. On October 31 they are done, and we need to have another physician in there to maintain conditions and the facility. Mr. Chomiak: As I have indicated earlier, the physicians have not even left, and already there has been a recruitment made to that particular region, and there is ongoing recruitment. That is one of the difficulties, Mr. Chair- person. There is a significant turnover in the entire region, as the member would know as a former board member.

Recruiting and maintain- ing is a priority and continues to be a priority. It is a priority in every community, and it is a priority in the region. It is sometimes difficult to separate which is the higher priority. How do you prioritize? You do it based on need and the best ability that you have. The fact is we have recruited more doctors. We continue to recruit more doctors. While there has been the resignation of this one family with respect to this particular centre, we have recruited another physician, and we are con- fident we will be recruiting more. * (15:50) Mrs. Rowat: Back to the commitment.

You are indicating that you will work with the RHA to ensure that the emergency and on-call services will be retained in the community of Rivers and in Wawanesa with their shortages. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I have indi- cated that the Premier (Mr. Doer) made a commitment when he was in Rivers, and I have also indicated that ther e is ongoing recruitment with respect to Wawanesa. Mrs. Rowat: In discussions with the community of Wawanesa, they would really like to be a part of the recruitment process and have received little or no direction or assistance from the RHA to be a part of that process.

This concerns them greatly. I think that if the department can assist in that area, it would be greatly appreciated. They are very concerned. The community is struggling with several issues. This is something that is very crucial to them. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I am aware of several of the issues affecting the community. I appreciate the comments and will pass those on to the appropriate authorities at the RHA. Mrs. Rowat: Rivers has asked repeatedly to have representation on the RHA. The Premier had indicated that that would be a promise kept.

I would just like to put on the record that the request is very important to the community, especially with the project that they are trying to see happen within the community. The Assiniboine RHA has doubled in size and in doing so is not really representing the grassroots of the community without some type of representation. So can I get an assurance from the minister that he will be looking at appointments? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the commit- ment made by the Premier when he was in Rivers will be fulfilled as indicated.

272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 Mrs. Rowat: Can you indicate to me when that will be, sir? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we are follow- ing the normal processes that have a cycle of appointments. As the member can appreciate, there are diverse needs and diverse requirements for representation from a variety of factors. But I can assure the member that we will fulfil the commitment of the Premier. Mrs. Rowat: The time frame? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we are in mid- season with respect to the appointment process.

I can certainly assure the member that it will be no later than the next appointment year. Mrs. Rowat: Is it common practice to have a board member who does not live within the regional health authority? Mr. Chomiak: It is not common practice, but it has occurred on occasion for a period of time. Mr. Chairperson: I will just remind the Mem- ber for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), who is a new member here, direct your questions through the Chair. Mrs. Rowat: Mr.

Chair, this would be an excellent opportunity for the minister to replace the individual who lives outside of the com- munity, outside of the region, with somebody from the Rivers area. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will take note of the member's comments. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, what would be the cost of operating the facility of Wawanesa on a yearly basis? Mr. Chomiak: I am sorry. Could you repeat the question? Mrs. Rowat: Could you indicate to me what the cost of operating the Wawanesa facility would be on a yearly basis? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, I do not have that specific information right at my finger tips, but I will provide it to the member. Mrs. Rowat: I guess I would also like to know what would be saved in the downgrading, if that should take place, of that facility. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will provide the information in terms of the operating costs to the member. Mrs. Rowat: I think that would be it. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister please clarify some of the conflicting statements that have been made about the closure of hospitals in the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority, because, certainly, when one of the doctors in Wawanesa was coming back to the area, he had been told by officials that the intent down the road was to close Wawanesa and Baldur? He was told that a couple of years ago, and that certainly seems to be contrary to a number of the statements that have been made by the minister and by the Premier (Mr.

Doer) that no health care facilities, no hospitals in rural Man- itoba will be closed, yet officials from that health authority are saying the opposite. Where does the accountability lie? Who is responsible for making those decisions? It would seem to me to be a policy decision. I think here we get into some of these discretionary account- ability, cloudy accountability issues that Paul Thomas was referring to in his report. Where is the solid commitment by the minister that Wawanesa will not be closed? Mr. Chomiak: Our record speaks for itself over the past four years. Mrs.

Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister of Health, he certainly talks about I am not going to close rural hospitals, but he talks about practice shifts in service. In fact, he was on CJOB talking about a practice of shifts in services or shifting services. Is this just double- speak for closing rural hospitals?

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 273 Mr. Chomiak: I seem to recall that the member in the last Estimates process accused me of not moving with the times and not making changes in the approach to health care and not closing beds. I seem to recall the member cited reports and said, get with the program, that is what you should be doing. I can cite that from last year's Estimates. It is clear that health care is changing, Mr. Chairperson, and will continue to change, partic- ularly with an emphasis on primary care.

I do not know if the member is in favour of primary care reform and is looking for increased en- hanced activity by nurses and nurse practi- tioners. If the member is not in favour of that then she should let us know on the record. We should probably debate that point. Mrs. Driedger: The minister did not answer the question at all and totally avoided any reference to my question. He knows where I am on the record of primary health care reform because we have talked about that. I do recognize the value of a commitment to primary health care.

I certainly look forward to more nurse practi- tioners working in the community. What I am asking the minister, when he talks about practice shifts in services, is that his double-speak for hospital closures? Is that how he is going to try to sell this issue? Well, we are not really closing rural hospitals; what we are doing is shifting services. I do not think that is going to give any reassurances to rural Man- itoba. I think it is absolutely critical that the minister be very clear on his position because, a few years ago: There will be no deficits. Well, he has allowed deficits all the way through.

Like the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) said, Roy Romanow went around saying there will not be any closure of hospitals. In the meantime he is planning the closure of 52 hospitals. I am sure the minister is very aware that Roy Romanow then has said, after the fact, that he made a mistake. In fact, that is written in an

article in a newspaper where Roy Romanow felt that his decision to close rural hospitals was a mistake to the services that people in rural Manitoba needed. I would ask the minister to please explain what he means when he talks about shifting services. Mr. Chomiak: First off, the member refers to double-speak. I do not know what reference the member is making to that. The member has to realize that we have enhanced services in rural Manitoba. The mem- ber may not acknowledge it, but the fact that we have returned surgeries to rural Manitoba and to northern Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: You repatriated patients from there. Mr. Chomiak: The member says you have repatriated. I note that there was a study in the 1990s that asked the Government to do that and there was a failure to do that for 11 years. We have done that. We have put in place Telehealth. We have expanded our primary care networks and will continue to do that. We have recruited more doctors. We have recruited more nurses. We are changing some of the practices. We will continue to evolve as the system evolves to get more care. We have expanded EMS, et cetera.

I have already gone through the litany of achievements that we have done, and I have said our record speaks for itself. Mr. Chairperson: The Member for Turtle Mountain. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I defer to the Member for Ste. Rose, if he has a question. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): During the election campaign, the Premier (Mr. Doer) made a very strong and forceful statement while in the Neepawa area regarding the refurbishment, in fact construction of a new chemotherapy area for the hospital.

I just wondered, I see by the look on the minister's face that perhaps this is not right at the top of his agenda at the moment, but it was certainly at the top of the Premier's agenda during the election. The people that he was talking to at the time have a sneaking suspicion, they did not vote for

274 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 10, 2003 me, but they were pretty happy to hear the Premier's comments. Regardless of how they vote, they are now asking when is something going to happen. The existing facility that is being used is cramped, and it might well be hazardous to the people who are working in there or certainly very difficult to work under. A very strong statement was made about it being moved on. The last time I checked, the stakes had not moved and it did not look like maybe there was anything about to happen.

I would be interested to know if the minister can give me some encouraging words. Mr. Chomiak: I am quite supportive of the movement toward expanded chemotherapy around the province. In fact, given the demo- graphics and the numbers we are looking at with respect to cancer and canc er treatment, it is an area that is of high priority. I will get the specifics just on the Neepawa situation. We are supportive of the expansion of the chemotherapy. I can assure the member of that. In fact, there are several other centres that we are looking at as well. * (16:00) Mr. Cummings: I thank the minister.

Just to give him a little bit of encouragement, I think this has been a program that has been successful and is much appreciated. The staff is becoming increasingly concerned that it might slip on the list somewhere along the way. In their eyes that would be entirely unacceptable because they believe that there is an increasing need for the service they are providing. I know from, not personal experience, but from people that I have been personally involved with that it is not a pleasant environment for the patients or the staff at the moment.

People have been willing to put up with that, but I think they feel the time has come, especially when design, I believe, has been indicated to have been under- taken, or should have been undertaken. Certainly stakes have been driven in the ground. I just do not want it to be like some highway projects where the stakes get replaced several times before construction starts. I accept the minister's undertaking to pro- vide current information and I want to put him on notice that I will be checking regularly as to the progress, because the people locally have identified it as a very high priority. Mr.

Chomiak: I will provide the member that information. My experience is typically chemo- therapy has been an adjunct to an existing facility and has been typically confined to the basement or a corner area. Our needs and our requirements and our volumes do just not justify that kind of arrangement. It is something that we are endeavouring to deal with. The member's point is well taken. Mr.

Tweed: I find it interesting that the minister talks about reviews and studies and challenges in the health care field, and yet we know that when the minister chose to amalgamate the health authorities in southwest–I forget what it is even called now, it is the Assiniboine health region, Marquette. We know that up until the last hour, the last minute that the plan was actually to amalgamate Brandon as well. Obviously from what we can gather and from what we can understand there was some political interference that caused that plan to change.

One of the things that we are hearing and I am sure that the minister is hearing, particularly from our part of the province, is the fact that many people in many of the communities are concerned that the regional health authority is acting either independently of the minister or with the minister's approval but are basically handcuffing our communities in their ability to recruit and attract professionals.

I know that I was not available when the minister was being asked about Wawanesa, but I can tell you that the message in that community, if you ask the people in that community, has been loud and clear for several years, that the RHA had a plan or a mission that the Wawanesa facility would no longer serve as a hospital. I am told, from travelling and working in that community, that the regional health author- ity has made it almost impossible for the doctors to stay there. In fact, we have their resignation. I suspect somewhere in the future the truth will prevail.

I understand that there are certain issues that cannot be discussed publicly because of other reasons, but I would think that the minister

September 10, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 275 has to be aware and has to be concerned that in southwestern Manitoba there is a real concern with the operation of the regional health au- thority. It is not just one facility that has a concern and it is not just one area or one part of the region that is suffering from again whether it is a managed plan or a plan that is being operated on a day-to-day basis, crisis-to-crisis management, but it is certainly a concern for a lot of people in the communities.

We have now in certain communities where we had four doctors, we have three; where they had two and were on call sharing with another community, have gone from four to three. We have lost three doctors in the community of Wawanesa. That is a big blow to that community and to the people that it serves, not only Wawanesa. The minister, I think, if he were to pursue this and involve himself a little bit in the detail, he would find that there are a lot of people from Brandon utilizing the Wawanesa clinic.

The doctors there have developed a very good reputation for service and specialties in certain areas through no help from the Government or from the regional health authority. They man- aged to recruit a young doctor, even against the RHA's recommendations that they did not want him in Wawanesa. They told him that point- blank. It seems like it is a mixed message that we are getting from the department, the Province and the minister and the RHA.

If it is the min- ister's intent to manage finances of RHAs by reducing the amount of funding that he provides to those facilities, forcing them, the RHA, to pass on those cost savings to the facilities, then I guess I suggest that his plan is working, because we are forcing doctors out. We are not actively recruiting. A question was put to the RHA recently about what they have done to attract new professionals, meaning nurses and doctors, to the communities, and were told that, well, we do a little bit of advertising but we just do it within the region. Well, I would suggest to you, Mr.

Minister, that if you are trying to attract professionals that you want to come into your region, you do not advertise in the same communities that there is a shortage. There are not many doctors sitting at home in Killarney or Wawanesa or Deloraine that are just waiting to be contacted by the RHA to see if they might want to fill a position. You have to go out and you have to actively recruit. The minister mentioned the situation in Gladstone. It was the community that attracted those doctors. It was not the RHA. It was the community taking the bull by the horns and telling the RHA how it was going to be.

I think that we have a real concern in our RHA. I do not know if it is prevalent across the rest of the province, but it certainly is a strong indication in our area that there are some serious problems, and I wonder if the minister has, as he said before–and I would say and I think a lot of people in Manitoba in different areas would suggest that they might study things to death in this Government, but has there been any talk in the Government of doing a review of the RHAs, reviewing the mandate? Have they worked? Are they working to satisfy the communities they serve? Are we getting value for our dollar?

Are there things that one RHA is doing better than another, and can we attach ourselves to that type of information? Has the minister instituted any kind of a review to see after seven or eight years if the RHAs are functioning the way they should? * (16:10) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, as I indicated to the member, I am sure the member will be happy to know that we have recruited more physicia

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-1-04
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 1st hansardpdf 04.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1e621f254b096eea142a85ff7967d126f2cdc178

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