Manitoba Hansard — 11 September 2003 (Sitting 05A, 38th Legislature, 1st Session)

38-1-05a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIV No. 5a – 10 a.m., Thursday, September 11, 2003

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

335 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, September 11, 2003 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (10:10) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As has been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Yesterday on CBC news on their Web site, there was a story about BSE a nd the stress that is occurring in the Manitoba farm community about the effects that BSE is having on people out there. It indicates that the stress line has been flooded with calls from anxious farmers.

August was the busiest month in the service's three-year history. So there are i ssues of BSE, there are issues of drought, and grasshopper problems, you know, huge fears building, and the woman that runs the stress line says that the stress levels have gotten to, in some cases, a very un– manageable level. I guess I would like to just ask a couple of questions around this in terms of the people that are directly affected and the Ag reps that are having to deal with this and perhaps even the people on the stress line.

What kind of processes has the minister put in place from the mental health issue to address some of these stresses that people are feeling at all of those levels? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I will deal in the general and then get down to the specific. Obviously this is a very sensitive issue. Several weeks ago we were aware of the ramifications of this. There has been an interdepartmental committee and group that has been looking in rural Manitoba. They have done a needs assessment across rural Manitoba that identified three primary geographic areas for need for assistance and resources.

There has been an ongoing dialogue and there will be additional resources if necessary in those particular trouble spots, most notably south Westman, Interlake, and, to a certain extent, Parkland. Resources will be provided. It has been led for the most part by Agriculture with augmentation from Health, and we have tried to do it sensitively. It captures a whole series of issues, emotional, psychological, et cetera. We have been trying to provide the resources in such a fashion so that people will feel comfortable in accessing the resources and not feel stigmatized. Mrs.

Driedger: Has all of that been put into place now or is the minister saying that that is coming? Mr. Chomiak: From the Health perspective, the lead on this in terms of resources is at the RHA level. We have asked them to provide resources, and any additional resources that might be required, et cetera, we have said that we will try to assist them with. Mrs. Driedger: Have the RHAs actively followed through then with that directive? Is there actually something happening already so that the farmers know what is available to help hem through this? t Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, resources have been provided and we are also going to augment those

336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 resources if necessary over the next several weeks. There has already been an ongoing process several weeks ago to ensure that this issue was identified. As I understand it, the main lead on this has been through the Rural Stress Line and the services provided, but the RHAs have been totally tied in and are aware of where it needs to be augmented and where it might be required to be additional resources in the future which we have said we will ensure are in place. There are augmented resources and there will be augmented resources.

In addition, we have been monitoring the stress line in terms of needs based and trying to identify where hot spots are, where additional resources are required and where there are particular issues that are common and might require additional capacity. I should say that this was at meetings that happened several weeks ago in terms of farm groups, et cetera. This was identified in a relatively low-key fashion. We undertook to put in place these resources in that same fashion and manner. Mrs. Driedger: I am just not clear. What exactly are those resources?

If I was a cattle producer, I was very stressed out, I phoned this stress line and you identified that I was highly stressed out and at high risk, can that information be transferred elsewhere? Are we stuck here with some FIA problems, I guess? How would you help me deal with my stress if the only place, well, it starts with the stress line, what extra resources could be put in at that point? Mr. Chomiak: At that point the notification and co-ordination would take place with the mental health and public health officials in the particular region. That would then kick in to provide the assistance. Mrs.

Driedger: Just based on some earlier discussions there is no FIA issue with this, I am assuming. I hope not. Mr. Chomiak: FIA is always an interesting experience in terms of accessing care. I think because of the experience with the stress line there is not a difficulty in terms of accessing resources because I think the people who handle the stress line are experienced enough to recognize and to identify to the individuals the kind of authorizations and information that is needed to have the system kick in. I am not aware of any.

If there ar e, we will let you know, but staff seem to indicate that there is not a problem. The people who do this, one of the reasons is they are quite experien ced in this area. I have not heard of any. If there are, I will let the member know. Mrs. Driedger: I appreciate th e response from the minister on that. It certainly does raise some serious concerns we are all aware of. I understand that the processes have already started where farmers are killing their cattle and burying them. That is happening right now in a couple of regions in Manitoba.

I do have huge fears as to the kind of effect that is going to have on people, now that that process has actually started, because they are obviously desperate enough to kill cows and kill cattle. I know that the stresses probably were at the point where they could reach extremely critical levels. I do hope that we are fully prepared for this. The next topic I would like to touch today is the nursing shortage, the nursing numbers. Can the minister indicate if there will be an expansion of diploma training programs in Manitoba?

From the minutes of the Central Region RHA I understand that there is some interest in increasing diploma training there through looking at the LPN program and advancing LPNs to diploma RNs. I am wondering if there is actually a plan in place for the expansion of the diploma training programs throughout Manitoba or even within Winnipeg I guess. * (10:20) Mr. Chomiak: There was a commitment to expand diploma training and articulation processes in place. While it is still in the planning stages, Central has come forward with a quite innovative and pro-active plan to educate nurses.

That is under active consideration. We have met and we are in a planning process with them. Of course, the integration and the assistance of the Department of Advanced

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 337 Education and Training, COPSE, and the various education institutions and needs and require- ments from other regions are going to enter into the final decision. We are in a planning process with Central, specifically, as the minutes note, on that program. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us when he is going to release the annual labour force stats for nursing? When we were in government, those were compiled for the end of April of each year. I would like to ask the Minister of Health where these are. Mr.

Chomiak: I think our practice has been to release them in September. I think they will be released sometime in September. Mrs. Driedger: Is the minister prepared to give us any sense right now of whether the vacancy numbers are up or down? Mr. Chomiak: I think there has been some stability in the labour force. The information, when it comes out, will be viewed positively. Mrs. Driedger: Is the minister tracking how many new grads are staying in Manitoba and hat that trend is currently showing? w Mr. Chomiak: The University of Manitoba has a tracking system.

The last statistics that I saw from the University of Manitoba had an extremely high retention rate. I am going from memory but it was in the neighbourhood of 90 ercent, if memory serves me correctly. p Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell me if there is an aggressive recruitment campaign with the nurses that are about to graduate so that we can be sure once they have graduated they already have a job, or do they have to wait until they graduate and then make application for a job? I know that when I graduated I knew before I graduated where I was going to work because that process, it was just there.

I know I raised this issue a few years ago and Betty Lou Rock from the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority had thought that would be something worth pursuing on their part. I wonder if something like that has been put in place. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will give the member a general answer from my recollection of the process and then I will get specific information to the member because I am going solely from memory, but as I recall, all nurses are approached and ar e provided with the opportunities and the options prior to graduation and are met with.

There is also now a process of follow-up following graduation that they are all contacted, with some exceptions because it has not worked out as I understand it 100 percent, but they try to follow up on every individual nurse to do follow-up to see and offer an outline of what options and alternatives are available. I will provide the member with a written description of that process because it is a little bit more complex than that, and I am working on memory. Mrs.

Driedger: I had some concern in August of this year and perhaps this was somebody, an individual that slipped through the cracks, but it did raise some serious concerns because she had indicated, and we are talking August now, that she had graduated, she had 20 applications that were sent out there. She was a recent graduate of the University of Manitoba's program. It was already two months after, and she had submitted 20 applications for nursing jobs at three Winnipeg hospitals. She had not received one return phone call.

That seemed very odd to me, and I wonder how somebody like that could have fallen through the cracks if indeed we were aggressively working with them prior to them even graduating. She is indicating that she is going to have to take her job hunt elsewhere. She had indicated that she had applied for jobs on labour and delivery and emergency wards and I understand a new grad may not end up in those areas, but she did also apply in medicine and surgery, and certainly they do take new grads.

She said that she had not received a response from even one of the potential employers or a call from the university to see how her job hunt is going. She said basically that she was on her own. My concern was is this one person that slipped through the cracks? That seems a little bit odd to me when there were 20 applications out there. It is not like there was just one application that might have slipped. There were 20, and I have some concern. All I am really looking for is some commitment that this is being looked at and that these kinds of things are not going to be happening in the future.

338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the member will know we had the largest graduating class in our history this year. I have to be careful in terms of information about individuals. As I understand it, this matter specifically was raised at our Joint Nursing Council, and at this point, all parties involved are unsure of why this happened. It could very well have been this individual did slip through the cracks, but there is more information pending on that.

I will provide the member back with specifics on that, but at this point that is the best information I have. When that information came to light we took it to the various authorities who then went back through their systems, et cetera. At this point it may very well be that it was an example of an individual slipping through the cracks. I cannot confirm that, but I will get back to the member with specific information if there is anything further that we find out. I am advised that people in the system were all apprised of it and were quite surprised that this had happened and we are doing follow-up. Mrs.

Driedger: I am pleased to see that there certainly was fast action on dealing with that issue. Is there any move ment towards setting up a co-op program for the nursing program at the university? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will get that specific information back to the member, perhaps as early as today. Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister think that having a co-op program at the university would be something that is beneficial? The university, I know, has designed one several years ago.

It went as high as, and I do not know what the group is over there that approved it, yet this has been one program that has actually sat dormant for a few years. Is there any request by the minister to move this particular issue forward? Mr. Chomiak: There are a wide variety of programs and different developments that we are looking at as a result of CNAC and as a result of some of our work with our Joint Nursing Council, et cetera, in terms of how to better educate and assist nurses. Co-op education is one example.

There are a whole series of other issues in terms of providing clinical assistance, the provision of peer mentoring, et cetera, and a whole slew of issues that we are grappling with as well as the articulation between the various programs that we are looking at now. * (10:30) Mrs.

Driedger: Is the minister requesting to the joint nursing council to also look at a summer undergraduate program where third-year students, instead of having to work as a nursing assistant in the summer, might be able to work, as they do in Alberta, as an undergraduate nurse with a few more responsibilities than what a urse's aide would have? n Mr. Chomiak: I believe we are looking at that. I will get specific details back to the member. Mrs. Driedger: I guess just to wind up that piece of it, does the minister feel that a co-op program and that undergraduate program would e something that he could support? b Mr.

Chomiak: It certainly is in the array of options that we are looking at. Two of the more current factors that have come to light recently in terms of nursing education concern clinical practice and the ability to have nurses provide clinical apprenticeship. Those have been as well as the demographic issue of nurses who are on the verge of retirement who can be utilizing the system. Those issues have become more pressing in the recent months in terms of riorization. p Mrs.

Driedger: When the nurses' contract was settled there had been an agreement struck that the RHAs and the nurses' union would look at the issue of full-time, part-time work and that there would be work proceeding to try to get two-thirds full-time, and a certain time frame had been set on that. I understand the time frame for that ends about April of next year, so that is only about six months left. Now, if my memory might serve me correctly, I think the nursing contract was settled last year. In speaking with the union in August of this year they had indicated that the group had only met twice.

I would like to ask the minister why this process eems to be taking so long. s Mr. Chomiak: The target was set for April of next year of a 65% full-time, part-time ratio. It is

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 339 an extremely complicated issue with a variety of factors. There is ongoing work as we speak in regard to this matter. Mrs. Driedger: I certainly recognize the complexity of making this happen. I mean, I think it is a herculean task that they have before them. My concern is, though, if this group is driving this change why they have only met twice since all of this began well over a year ago. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, there have been many more meetings than two with respect to this item and this issue, and there is work ongoing as we speak. Mrs.

Driedger: The particular group that was assigned to deal with this has indicated they have only met twice. The minister is saying that there have been many more meetings. Are there other processes in place then behind this committee where meetings are taking place and decisions are being made? Is the committee directing it or is this a parallel process that is going on? Where is the bulk of this work happening? I am hoping this committee is not just a token committee that their mandate was to make this happen. So could the minister just explain more fully perhaps what is going on with the whole process? Mr.

Chomiak: The committee is directing it. There is ongoing work that will continue. It was the committee's mandate that set the mandate and set the goals and set the targets, and we are continuing to work towards those. Mrs. Driedger: Is it people from Manitoba Health that are involved in it or Manitoba Health and all of the RHAs and RHAM. Who all is working then on this particular issue? Mr. Chomiak: The primary carrying of this is the task of the union and the regions and there is liaison with Manitoba Health. Mrs.

Driedger: Is there one particular person that might be heading this up and ensuring that this process moves forward. A committee does not necessarily have the ability, as there are many of them, to take something forward. Is there one person on that committee who could be the chair? Who would it be, and are they charged with moving this forward? Mr. Chomiak: In an undertaking of this size and complexity that requires joint participation from management and not just from union leadership at a central level, but at a local level, it is quite complex.

The overall mandate is the committee and a number of related activities feed into it. I do not have one individual that, quote, heads it up. Mrs. Driedger: I guess I have some concern when we spoke to the union, who indicated that the committee had only met twice as of August despite the fact that this agreement, I believe, had been established back in, I do not know if it was March or April or later than that last year. It seems to me a bit strange when we have a herculean task. We have got an unbelievable goal to meet.

We are looking at trying to take Manitoba from having one of the worst full-time ratios in the country to making it more on par with the rest of Canada–why this committee has not been meeting on an absolutely regular basis and being driven by some leadership somewhere. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, it was a significant task to get the agreement in the first place with respect to something that, over the decade, had gone exactly the other way, to establish it in the first place.

I am confident and one of the reasons that I want to be helpful on this is that we are moving it along and there is an extreme sensitivity and di fficulties in a number of areas. The management and the union agreed to something that is unprecedented and are working on developing, and I have said at the time, very very lofty goals. We continue to move along. We continue to have confidence in movement in this area. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels on (River East): Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask a couple of questions along the same line. Who in the minister's department is driving this initiative?

Who has he assigned to take a leadership role? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, it is a variety of factors in terms of it is a labour force issue. It

340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 is a policy issue. It is a workforce issue and it is a leadership issue out of the department. It is primarily, at this point, a matter dealing with labour relations and labour issues. It also is under the guidance and direction of the Joint Nursing Council. * (10:40) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chair, so I guess then my direct question to the minister is who in the department has he assigned and at what level? This is a very significant issue. It is a priority issue for patient care in the province of Manitoba. Who and at what level?

Is it an assistant deputy minister? Is it an executive director? Is it the deputy minister? Who? At what level? I do not have the organizational chart in front of me. If it is something that is as important as the minister has indicated, who? Could he not tell me the person that he has placed in charge of this initiative? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the Joint Nursing Council, of course, was the entity and the body that was tasked with this responsibility. It is a joint responsibility between the management and union and effectively as a joint council is charged with the task of managing this issue. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Who is on the joint council? Who are the players? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will get the member a list of participants on the joint council. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, but that is unacceptable. We have a minister that is in charge of the department and a very specific initiative which he has touted as something that he is going to take charge of and accomplish. He cannot tell me who in the senior area of his department is on that joint council and who from the union is on that council. Either he has taken this seriously or he does not know what is going on in his department.

Can the minister today, because I know he has got his senior administration here and I believe that his deputy would be monitoring this initiative that has been ongoing for several months now–surely his senior staff can tell him, if he does not know, who is in charge. Who is the joint council? Who is the lead from the union? Who is the lead from management in his department? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I will provide the member with those names.

I think part of the difficulty the member has is that the member does not understand that when you are in a joint union-management relationship, it is not like the member dictates from on high how he or she wishes this matter to occur. That is one of the reasons why when the member was government there were such poor relations between the union and the nurses and the member's government. That is why the member's government could not make any progress on nurses' issues.

I will provide that information to the member, but I am not going to adopt the strategy that members opposite adopted of top-down, we are laying off 1000 nurses, this is what the game plan is. Part of it has been a co-operative effort. That is why it is a joint council. I do not know if the member is aware of that, but it is a joint council entered into as a result of a collective agreement that we entered into with the nurses' union without having to go through some of the ramifications, some of the issues the member opposite did over her 11 years of negotiating with nurses. Mrs.

Mitchelson: It is unbelievable that the minister does not take responsibility for his department. I am asking a very basic question. Who from management in his department is involved with the nurses' union? Obviously, if it is an initiative that has been undertaken and there is a joint process, I am only asking for the name of the person in the department who is responsible for working with the union around this initiative. It should not be a difficult question. I have no hidden agenda. I guess I am just asking for information. I am not saying that it should be top-down or management driven. It is a joint

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 341 council. There are two people working side by side, one from the union and one from the minister's department. Who is the person from the minister's department who is working in co- operation through the joint council to ensure that he meets the goals and objectives that were set down when he announced this initiative? Mr. Chomiak: I will provide those names before the morning is out to the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: I want to thank the minister for that. It is like pulling teeth sometimes to get any kind of a straight answer from this minister.

I do not think he should have anything to hide because I think it is an initiative that he should be very proud of. It is a big task. It is one that requires considerable attention. I just want to make sure that the process is moving ahead and I would like to certainly congratulate those who are working on the process, if indeed they are achieving some success. We worry because this minister has made promises and commitments time and time again which he has not lived up to. He has broken many of those promises. He has not met the deadlines that he has announced.

That does not bode well for those who are working within the health care system or those who are needing the ervices of our health care system. s I would hope that the minister would get the names back to us and he would report to us at the same time, because I know if it is someone within senior management within his department they should have some sort of an interim report or ability to at least just share verbally with us how the process is going, have they accomplished what they felt they should accomplish or could accomplish to this date and are they going to be able to meet the deadlines.

I think those are very simple answers that the minister should be able to provide to us and to Manitobans who are depending on him for the leadership that needs to be there in the Department of Health to ensure that we move forward. We know that we cannot trust this minister to deliver on what he commits to. So I guess we are just asking and trying to hold him accountable for announcements he has made.

So I thank him for getting the information and the person's name that he has assigned from the department and, because his staff is here, I hope that he might just be able to give us some sense of whether they are on target for at least half way through the process and whether they feel that they will be able to accomplish their goal or maybe they will need more time. Quite frankly, if more time is needed, let us just be honest and up front with that and indicate what the issues are, what the problems are. That would be the proper way of dealing with this issue.

Hopefully, we will get those answers before noon when this committee rises. Mr. Chomiak: I do not know if the member knows, the question of labour relations in these matters is extremely complex at both the central labour relations table and a local labour relations table. I do not want to leave the impression that it is a top-down process where we are ordering, because that just would not work. That is why it did not work over the nineties and that is why we ran into so much trouble over the nineties.

I do not want to fall into the trap that previous governments fell into in terms of trying to dictate how matters should be vis-à-vis nursing. We know what happened with nursing in the 1990s and I am trying to avoid that. If the member is suggesting that we go back to that I will reject that suggestion. If the member is suggesting that we continue to work in a co- operative fashion, then I welcome that suggestion. Mrs. Mitchelson: I do not want the minister to leave on the record false impressions.

He is twisting my comments and I have repeated time and time again if someone is assigned from his department to undertake a specific task why is he ashamed or afraid to indicate who that person is? I am sure it is a very competent person in the management of his department who is leading and working with the union to accomplish this initiative. What is the minister afraid of, and why does he not know, or why does his senior staff not know, on such an important initiative who his lead person within his department is?

I am having difficulty understanding that. * (10:50) Is this not an initiative that the minister has endorsed and is it not an initiative that the

342 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 minister wants to see succeed? Has he not had any input or does he not know or has he not received any update from anyone on where this initiative is at? It has been underway for over six months. It is half way into the process. Has he not asked anyone in his department for an update on how it is going? I find this unbelievable. Mr. Chomiak: The member's question itself is premised inaccurately. We are not just working with the union. We are working with the management as well. The member should understand.

That is part of the difficulty I am having with the member. The member is suggesting that we are just working with the union. We are not just working with the union. We are working with all of the RHAs and management. That is the difficulty I have. Even the member's question is premised on the basis that somehow we are working just with the union on this. The very premise of the question is inaccurate, and I am not going to answer an inaccurate question. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, the minister tells me now they are working with the union and management throughout the health care system.

Who from his department is working with the joint committee? Is there a lead person in his department or does he not have control of what is going on? Mr. Chomiak: It is linked both to the ADM of regional services and the ADM of labour force. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, thanks, Mr. Chairperson, that seemed to be a very simple answer. Could the minister just indicate to me who those two ADMs–were they two ADMs or an ADM and an executive director? Mr. Chomiak: An ADM and an executive director. Mrs. Mitchelson: Could the minister just indicate to me who those two individuals are in those two positions? Mr.

Chomiak: Arlene Wilgosh is the ADM, and Bev Ann Murray is the executive director. Mrs. Mitchelson: T h a t s e e m s t o m e t o b e a pretty simple answer. Obviously, the minister is telling me that there are some senior people in his department who are working on this initiative. That was my very simple question in the beginning and I want to thank him. I am not sure why it was so difficult to provide those two names. It appears to me that the executive director, Bev Ann Murray, has taken on a lot of the responsibilities that were previously the responsibility of an ADM.

Can the minister tell me why the position is just an executive director and not an ADM position? Mr. Chomiak: It is part of an administrative structure in the department and it is based on a variety of reasons, the combination of duties that are combined in a particular area, some of the ongoing work that had happened in that individual's area that she continued on because of continuity. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess I look at the position now. We have a woman in the position.

Previously the ADM who had those responsibilities I believe was a male, and so I guess I am asking the question of whether the woman who presently is filling that position and has assumed the responsibilities that an ADM had in the past–why would we not be classifying her as an ADM?

I guess secondary to that, because it appears that sh e is doing the same job unless she has fewer responsibilities, my question would be: Is she being paid at an ADM level for the duties that she is undertaking, or has she been asked to take on significant responsi- bility without the classification that goes with those responsibilities? Mr. Chomiak: She has undertaken significant responsibilities.

The structure of the Department of Health has been changed as a result of recommendations from the Thomas inquiry to structure it in a different fashion as a result of needs to organize in a different fashion, and I am actually quite pleased that we have some very capable women who are assuming very senior leadership roles at the Department of Health. Mrs. Mitchelson: I would certainly echo the minister's comments. I guess the only concern that I have, and I just look at the responsibilities that are there and it raises a bit of a flag with me,

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 343 if in fact we had a male assuming those responsibilities in the past, who was classified as an ADM, and we now have a woman undertaking those responsibilities, why would that woman not be entitled to the same classification and the same salary range as a man undertaking those same responsibilities? Mr. Chomiak: This is not a matter of gender. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Was there some recommendation from some report that would have indicated that the responsibilities for health and labour relations, workforce policy and planning, insured benefits and medical con- sulting group, some sort of report in the department that indicated that those re- sponsibilities only warranted an executive director classification and pay scale? Is there something in writing as part of the restructure and re-org that says that we were overpaying and overclassified previously and that those functions within the department warranted a lesser classification? * (11:00) Mr.

Chomiak: If memory serves me correctly I think there was an acting executive director in that area for some time. The basic organization structure itself basically came out of the recommendations of the Thomas review of the Sinclair inquiry which asked for a different configuration and management structure at the epartment of Health. D There have been, as well, some variations within that context because of individuals having some expertise in some areas and not having expertise in other areas. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So then the minister is telling me, and maybe he can just confirm this, that the Thomas report recommended that the re- sponsibilities of health, labour relations, workforce policy and planning, insured benefits, medical consulting group–the recommendation in that report was that there should be an executive director rather than an ADM in charge of those responsibilities. If memory serves me correctly, and I do not have the previous organizational chart, my understanding is that those same and only those functions were previously managed by an ADM.

He is indicating then that the restructure came out of the Thomas report. The Thomas report then indicated that that position did not warrant an ADM level classification. Mr. Chomiak: No, the Thomas commission did not recommend specific position titles and specific authorities. The Thomas commission recommended a general restructuring of the department based along these lines. Mrs. Mitchelson: Then the decision for the title and the classification would have been made and recommended to the minister for his approval.

I do not know what process he had to go through to get that approved, whether he went to Cabinet for the restructure and th e re-org, whether had to go to Treasury Board because there would have been some financial implications, but I guess again I come back to the question: Why last year, in the organizationa l structure, were those functions managed by an assistant deputy minister and why this y ear are they managed by an executive director? Let us take the gender out of it if the minister wants to take the gender out of it.

Is he saying that last year and years previous to this year, the position managing those functions was overclassified and that an executive director level is the more appropriate level for the unctions that are being performed in this area? f M r. Chomiak: No, I am not saying that. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, then why the change in classification? Why was that decision made? Who made it? Obviously the minister approved it. So the minister has to be accountable and explain why he approved that.

Is he saying that an executive director classification then, if we work it the other way, today, is not adequate to meet the roles and the responsibilities that the person undertaking these areas of responsibility have. He said to me that it was not over-classified last year at an ADM level. Then the converse to that is that it must be underclassified at an executive director level this year. Which one is it? Was it overclassified before or is it underclassified now? It has to be ne or the other. o Mr. Chomiak: The key factor, in my view, is having the right people in the right place to

344 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 undertake the tasks and the jobs that are necessary. That is the structure that we have in place. If the member wants to argue for more or less ADMs, that is the prerogative of the member. The member may want to have six or seven more ADMs, as was the case previously. That is fine. If that is where the member is going, I guess the member can go down that road. That is the member's prerogative. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, I look at the new organizational structure and I see a Special Projects ADM under R. Dedi.

Could the minister tell me then why there is an ADM at that level under the new organizational structure? What special projects might he be undertaking that would warrant the special status of an ADM, because I do not see any other ADM at that level in the organizational chart? Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated to the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) the other day during the course of the Estimates debate, there are a number of projects undertaken that I am not in a position to provide information on publicly that are of a planning area. He continues to undertake those tasks. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So then the minister would be indicating to me that Mr. Dedi, in his role as ADM at a different place in the organizational structure, would be undertaking–I guess I would ask how many people he might have reporting to him in his new role. Mr. Chomiak: I answered those questions. They are in Hansard. Mrs. Mitchelson: I do not believe the minister did answer that question. How many people would be reporting to Mr. Dedi? I know that because Mr.

Dedi reports directly through the deputy minister to the minister, and there are only five people that have that direct reporting to the deputy, I am sure that we could pretty quickly get an answer as to how many people would report to Rick Dedi as the Special Projects ADM. Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated in Hansard the other day, there are no individuals directly reporting to Mr. Dedi in that role. Mrs. Mitchelson: How many support staff then would Mr. Dedi have in his role as Special Projects ADM? Mr. Chomiak: He gets support as required for those projects through the department. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I just want to clarify what the minister is indicating to me. Could I ask what his salary might be? What is the range for an ADM in the Department of Health? Mr. Chomiak: I believe it is in the accounts, but we will provide that information to the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: So you are saying then that Mr.

Dedi is not responsible for managing any staff in his position, that he does not have any support staff in that position, that he gets support as required from different areas within the department based on the projects that he is undertaking; and yet he still has the classification of an ADM with an ADM salary while the person that has taken over his responsibility in the department that he was paid an ADM's salary for is being paid at a lesser classification and a lesser salary. Is that accurate? * (11:10) Mr. Chomiak: I will provide the member with information as to the salary of both Mr.

Dedi and with Bev Ann Murray. Mrs. Mitchelson: It seems like a very basic question when we are dealing with the budgetary authority of a department that the information–I know, I sat behind the table where the minister sits and was asked very specific, direct, financial questions and I would have been considered quite incompetent if I had not been able to answer, with staff sitting at the table, what the salary ranges were for senior administrators, what the salary was for my deputy minister. I would hope the minister would not have to get back to me with that.

I mean this is information that should be readily avai lable. It is taxpayers' dollars, and I am having a bit of difficulty understanding why the minister cannot be specific and cannot answer any budgetary questions directly. I mean, is he incompetent or

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 345 is he saying his staff that he has at the table are not able to provide that very basic information? There is a salary range for ADMs. There is a salary range for deputy ministers. There is a salary range for executiv e directors. There is a salary range for every classification within his department. Surely to goodness someone from financial services in the Department of Health can indicate what those ranges are.

I know my detailed Estimates, when I was a minister, included absolute salaries for individual bureaucrats in my department and that was information that was asked for on a regular basis and it was direct information that was given. What has the minister got to hide? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, that is part of the problem in dealing with the member from River East, the whole conspiracy theory. The first member's question was what the specific salary for those indi viduals was. Now the member says, well, you cannot tell me what the salary ranges are. That is not even what the member asked for.

The member has asked for the salaries. Now the member is asking for ranges and the member is taking two different questions and trying to see major conspiracy theories in that process, so that is what I have difficulty with in dealing with the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: Every answer from this minister is a convoluted answer. Obviously, he does not want to stand up and be held accountable. As a minister of the Crown who has the largest budget throughout government, why does he have to think that everything is a conspiracy? What is he hiding, or is he just incompetent? Mr.

Chomiak: The salary range for Executive Director 1 is $77,200 to $92,300; for Executive Director 2, these are the classifications, $83,000 o $99,300. Those are ADM classifications. t Mrs. Mitchelson: That seemed to be a bit painful for the minister, but I want to thank him for being open and providing me and Manitoba taxpayers with information that should be very readily available to them and that the minister should not be ashamed or afraid to answer. Mr. Chomiak: The member asked for membership of the Joint Nursing Council.

It is Maureen Hancharyk, Neil Walker, Sandy Mowat, Fern Beasse , Jan Currie, Milton Sussman, and myself. Mrs. Driedger: Did the minister not know he was on that committee earlier then? Mr. Chomiak: Yes, I attend all the meetings. Mrs. Driedger: How many meetings have there been? Mr. Chomiak: I will confirm the dates of the meetings. The last meeting of the Joint Nursing Council, I was ill and unable to attend. Mrs.

Driedger: I am I guess somewhat troubled with some of the answers the minister has been giving, actually the non-answers the minister has been giving about some of these nursing issues all morning when in fact he is on one of the committees that is actually discussing these very issues. You know, back to some of the comments from the member from River East. The minister seems to have either a serious lack of information about what is going on in his department or he is trying to avoid answering the questions. I mean, these have been very straightforward questions about an extremely serious issue.

It has also been about, I think, a good initiative that has been put forward to try to increase full-time nurses in the province and now the questions we ask, the minister should have had the answers. He is on one of the committees that actually is integrally involved at looking at some of these issues. Why is he having such difficulty answering all of these questions? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, one of the difficulties is at least 50 percent of the questions, the premise upon which the question is asked is inaccurate and I do not want to put inaccurate information on the record. For example, assertions made in

preambles to questions that are inaccurate, such as the member from River East saying: Who is the union membership only on this? If I were to answer, that would be inaccurate because it is not just union membership and the member does not understand the basic nature of a joint council

346 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 that is management and union. So I want to make sure that I put accurate information on the record and very precise information on the record. Mrs. Driedger: The minister just put inaccurate information on the reco rd because the member from River East was not just asking about who the union membership was. She had other components to that question too which was who was also the representative from the Department of Health or the minister's office. So it is the minister that very frequently is putting inaccuracies on the record.

It is starting to raise concerns that after a wh ole week in Estimates, the minister has been lacking in a lot of information about what is going on in his department, from what the vacancy rate is to how much federal money has been allocated, to how many cardiac surgeons there are working in Manitoba. Did the federal money flow? He was all over the map on that question. He does not know where in the Budget the federal money is plotted. It does not appear that it is even in the Budget. There has been so many discrepancies through this whole week.

So, for the minister to sit and say that somebody else is putting inaccuracies on the record, I think he had first better have a review of some of his own responses from this particular week. He seems to be overwhelmed right now with all of the information in running his department. I would like to move on because I would like to get through a number of these questions that we have. It is not appearing that my pile of questions is going down very rapidly.

I would like to ask the minister if he expects a nursing surplus within a few years and if he is basing some of his planning on a notion that we could have a nursing surplus down the road within a few years. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, there are various reports that have been done recently with respect to the nursing volumes, both in Winnipeg and outside of Winnipeg. There was a report that was made public about a year ago with respect to the Winnipeg situation that laid out three different scenarios with respect to surplus versus deficit nurses.

There is also a recent report that assessed the rural situations which suggested there would be a deficit in terms of total nurses over the long erm. t We tend to use, or I tend to use, those reports as planning documents and scenarios. We are operating on the assumption of a continuing nurse shortage in the medium term and perhaps in the long term where my experience in terms of nursing numbers has been over the past 20 years a boom and bust cycle to nursing education, that is that when there is a deficit there is a tremendous interest in training and educating nurses.

When the surplus is achieved that drops off, which results in a orresponding difficulty. c Suffice to say that we are proceeding on the basis that at least for planning purposes and the short-term future, and I have said publicly, we anticipate there will be continuing shortages of nurses. If not, certainly in specialty areas will be some difficulty and certainly the most recent report suggests in rural Manitoba, the demographics suggest that there will be a shortage. On the other hand, there are some initiatives undertaken to deal with that.

The short answer is while some prognosticators indicate there will be a nursing surplus, I do not necessarily personally lan on that basis. p * (11:20) Mrs. Driedger: One of the recent studies that came out of, and it might have been the Canadian Nurses Association, I cannot totally recall, and it might even be something totally different, but there was the sense that if all the nurses that were eligible to retire within the next very, very short period of time, we might see a oss of 30 percent of our workforce in Manitoba. l Is that causing the minister any concern?

Does he treat that particular report with–it might have been Linda Lee O'Brien-Pallas' report, and I wondered if he treats that one with any more import than other reports that are out there? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the demographic situation vis-à-vis nurses has been foremost in our minds since the day we assumed

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 347 office. I can recall the very day when there was a dispute about the bringing back of the diploma program indicating to the nurses and others that attended, I believe the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) attended and the Leader of the Liberal party attended at that particular protest against our bringing back the diploma program.

I recall at that time that I indicated that it was not just the factor that we had gone from graduating 600, 700, 800 nurses a year down to 200 nurses a year, that that was not the only factor, that the demographic of age 47 in Manitoba meant that we are potentially going to lose significant amounts of nurses over the short period of time. I indicated earlier in one of my responses to the member, when the member was talking about some education programs, that I am very concerned about the demographic issue and trying to achieve some kind of balance.

That is where it gets more complicated and fits in with a full time, part time and some of the other scenarios that are being worked on, Mr. Chairperson, with respect to nursing. Suffice to say, we are concerned about the demographic. We are taking measures to deal with leadership regarding the demographics and it is a concern to us. Th ere are some solutions that have been offered that we are working on and we continue to work on. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to move into the area of physicians and physician shortages.

Is the minister aware from the last report of the College of Physicians and Surgeons that currently of the doctors practising in Manitoba, 102 of them are over the age of 70; 113 of them are between the age of 65 and 70. It appears that we have about 215 physicians that could possibly retire tomorrow if they wanted to. I would like to ask the minister what analysis has been done of this. Are there questions being put to these physicians as to their potential retirement date? How is he planning for the retireme nt of this cohort of doctors? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, again it was one of the issues that we began working on from the very day that we assumed office. There was recognition of the demographic, if I can put it this way, the demographic challenge vis-à-vis octors. d In fact, one of the issues that was negotiated in the most recent collective agreement with the physicians was the physician retention fund. It is managed by the MMA. A part of its purpose is to assist doctors in staying in practice in Manitoba for longer periods of time. That is just one of the initiatives.

It is quite clear, both from the meetings of the CMA recently that were held in Manitoba and the recent studies that have taken place that the style of practice of doctors has differed. The most recent study showed that, now I do not want to get this inaccurate, but just in general terms the elder doctors were taking a disproportionate amount of workload vis-à-vis practices. That is a difficulty that has been identified by the CMA. We are aware of the demographic challenge. Again, that is one of the reasons why we have expanded enrolment and again are expanding enrolment at the college to train more doctors.

We have put in place some provisions with the union for retention strategies vis-à-vis doctors. We have also put in place some other initiatives concerning family practice and family practitioners that are geared toward providing some assistance to doctors. There is no question though that the demographic issue, like nurses, will affect us and we have to have continued easures to deal with that. m Mrs. Driedger: The April stats from the College of Physicians and Surgeons shows that in the past year 64 doctors have left Manitoba to go to other jurisdictions, whether it is Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia.

In fact, more of them are going to other jurisdictions in Canada and ot to the United States, as one might assume. n What is the minister doing to keep these physicians in Manitoba? Certainly the physicians have said there are a coup le of major factors that keep them here, that is, better salaries and improved taxes, tax cuts. Can the minister indicate what he is doing to try to address these issues? Certainly we know that in this same report only six doctors went to

348 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 the Maritimes and Saskatchewan and ten to the United States. All the rest of them, sixty-four, went to Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia. Can the minister give us an idea of what he is doing to try to keep those kinds of physicians here? Mr. Chomiak: If memory serves me correctly, we have a net gain in physicians every year since 1999 in Manitoba. I think, more importantly, we negotiated with the MMA an agreement that we did not end up arbitrating.

We ended up negotiating an agreement that puts Manitoba doctors in a favourable position vis-à-vis other jurisdictions and will continue to bode well in terms of attractiveness in other locations in the future. I think the key stat is the net gain of doctors in Manitoba. The member is right, the hemorrhaging, no pun intended, to the United States that occurred over the 1990s appears to have dried up. Mrs.

Driedger: Certainly, in looking at these particular numbers, however, and looking at the age of some of the physicians and the concern of maybe all of them deciding they want to retire very soon, it is critical that we look at the fact that we are still losing doctors from Manitoba. It may be less, but it is still high, because they do not feel this is the environment they want to practise in. I appreciate the efforts that have been made. I think there have been some good efforts made to deal with this.

I certainly would encourage the minister to look at the other factor that they also say is important to them and that is tax cuts.

Something I was in discussion of with a doctor was he said we train all of these doctors here in Manitoba, and the minister likes to say that he has added 15 more seats to the program, but it seems to be almost consistent year after year, I guess I will pose it as a question to the minister: Would it be accurate in his opinion to say that, of the students that graduate, and you look at the college statistics that come out, we only register about 30 of those new grads here every year, which means about two-thirds of medical grads that we train here actually leave Manitoba? * (11:30) Mr.

Chomiak: I do not think it is appropriate to use the figure of straight registration vis-à-vis the number of graduates as a criteria for doctors that leave Manitoba because lots go into specialty programs and continuing programs. Some go to continuing specialty programs here. Some go to other jurisdictions with the intention of coming back. Suffice to say that we indicated as a goal four years ag o when we came to office that we wanted to reverse the trend of doctors leaving Manitoba. We have made some significant strides in that area and we continue in that area.

Some of the specialty programs, for example, if one thinks about the neurosurgery program and the provision of the gamma knife in Manitoba, we see now that there is a tendency for both specialists and others to want to come and undertake additional training and specialization here because of the provision of that type of technology . There are some efforts we are taking in that area and other areas to actually have more specialty training here.

There are a variety of factors, but to strictly extrapolate the number of doctors that are registered versus the number of doctors that graduate would not be an accurate reflection of those who leave the province. Mrs. Driedger: It is an accurate reflection of, maybe not leaving the province, but it is an accurate reflection that of all the doctors we train the numbers throughout the nineties and all throughout the early 2000s have basically, in the last several years, been unchanged in that in 2003 they only list 30 Manitoba medical practitioners granted regi stration. These are new registrations.

The year before it was 33; 2001, it was 16; 2000, it was 27; 1997, it was 37. So the numbers are generally, for training 85 and only 30 are going to–now I realize that 85 would not have probably kicked in yet, but even out of 70 if 30 are registering here that means we are not feeling the benefits of training all these doctors. Mr. Chomiak: I will try to get back to the member some statistical information, some information that deals with this. If the member wants to have a further discussion we can. I have gone through it with the college and with some of the educators. Rather than paraphrase, I will

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 349 try to get some specific information to the member. Mrs. Driedger: The other issue related, I guess, to this same area: medical school enrolment, during the election we were told that not enough rural students were applying to med school. I believe it might have been Doctor Hennen that had made that comment. It was quoted in a newspaper story. We know that Dr. Chris Burnett of the Assiniboine RHA says there is a crisis in increasing the number of physicians available for rural Westma n. In the spring, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) wa s quoted in a rural newspaper stating that special sensitivity would be made for rural students applying to med school who intend to return to rural Manitoba to practise. We have recently heard of a young woman, a very well qualified young woman who tried unsuccessfully three times to get into med school here and could not and is now off to the Caribbean.

Actually, I can take every one of my rural colleagues who can also come up with names of rural students who have tried, some with honours, graduating high school with honours, having very, very well-qualified, all-rounded backgrounds not getting into med school. I understand from Dean Hennen's comments also that there is a review going on to review admission criteria. I understand, I believe Doctor Klassen from the Office of Rural and Northern Health is on that committee. My question to the minister is: Why has it been established that that review of the admission criteria is going to take 18 months? Mr.

Chomiak: I have had discussions with the member's colleague from Russell concerning the matter that the member raised with respect to that student. The member might not be surprised by the fact that the number of individuals who want to get into medical school and have contacted me about their inability to get into medical school is quite lengthy, both rural and urban. It is an issue that is not directly in my ability to, and in fact I cannot, influence. What we can do is ask that the college be sensitive to particular issues.

There have been a number of activities undertaken by the Office of Rural and Northern Health, including a week-long rural and northern clinical training experience for 65 first-year medical students that took place in 17 separate communities in northern and rural Manitoba at the end of May, 2003. We have now had the director of the Office of Rural and Northern Health working with the Faculty of Medicine to look at projects including the development of promotional materials to attract rural youth to the facility.

The Office of Rural and Northern Health medical director is an active participant in the 2003 admission process.

There are a number of activities that have been undertaken by the Office of Rural and Northern Health in hat regard. t There have been meetings with all of the RHAs, with community organizations and there have been liaisons with secondary schools and students out all around Manitoba with respect to the opportunities for ru ral students to practise nd to enter the Faculty of Medicine. a I will not go down the length of resources that we have put in place with respect to the bursary programs and the IMG programs we have put in place that specifically apply to rural anitoba. M Mrs.

Driedger: I am just looking through some of my notes. When we look at rural doctors who are trained in Manitoba and we look at the Manitoba training numbers and then we look at how many of our Manitoba medical students stay to work in Manitoba, I note that the number has actually dramatically increased this past year, say as compared to 1995. These are statistics again from the college where they said in their 2003 report that 29 percent of rural doctors were trained in Manitoba, in 2002, the same number, 29 percent, 2001 it was 31 percent of rural doctors were trained in Manitoba.

In 2000, it was 34.5 percent of rural doctors were trained in Manitoba. In 1995 it was 39.3 percent of rural doctors were trained in Manitoba. We have a 10% drop from 1995 to 2003 of students coming out of Manitoba's medical school that are actually going to Manitoba. That picture has dramatically changed. I wo ndered if the minister as aware of that. w Mr. Chomiak: Two factors. Of course, over the period of the 1990s the number of students

350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 admitted to the Faculty of Medicine dropped by 15, starting in 1992-93, I believe, which in fact dropped by a factor of about 20 percent the number of Manitobans that were eligible to get into medical school. So that was the first factor. * (11:40) The second factor, Mr. Chairperson, was a recognition of that, which is why we set up the Office of Rural and Northern Health to deal specifically with that clearly identified issue.

Quite clearly, what happened in the 1990s was that there was a drop in the number of Canadian medical graduates right across the country. There was an increasing reliance on foreign recruitment in terms of dealing with shortages. We are now trying to reverse that trend by providing more opportunities for Manitobans to become doctors and participate in Manitoba. Still, we are going to have to rely as well on foreign recruitment and probably always will in this jurisdiction. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister confirm that right now about 46 percent of our rural doctors are from South Africa? Mr.

Chomiak: I recently went through those statistics. I will have to confirm that number with the member. If she is reading from the college registry, then I am not going to dispute those particular numbers if that is what she is reading from. I do not have my college statistics with me. Mrs. Driedger: I cannot find in front of me the percentage of South African doctors that came here and were registered in the mid-nineties, but it was probably half of 46 percent. It seems to me that over, say, the last eight years probably we have become very reliant on the physicians that have come from South Africa.

I guess that is why I am pressing for looking at this review that is going on by Doctor Hennen and wondering why it is taking 18 months. I sense some urgency that we need to find a better way to get more of our Manitoba-trained students back into Manitoba. As I have pointed out, we have had a 10% drop in those students going back to rural Manitoba. I see that has created some urgency and yet Doctor Hennen's review is taking 18 months. Has the minister had an opportunity or does he feel he can ask them to speed up that time frame? Mr.

Chomiak: I do not think that there is any difficulty in asking them to speed up the time frame but just let me deal with a couple of issues raised by the member. Firstly, again that is precisely why several years ago we established our very extensive program to deal with rural doctors. It was not done this year, it was done four years ago. It included, Mr. Chairperson, an expansion of enrolment, an expansion of residency positions, an offering of a bursary program, an IMG program, an Office of Rural Northern Health.

I have already outlined some of the activities vis- à-vis rural students that the Office of Rural Northern Health has undertaken. With respect to South African doctors, I should indicate that there was a major recruiting initiative for South African doctors that occurred over the past several years, most notably the late-nineties, to recruit South African doctors. There has also been a re cognition that that pool is drying up for a variety of reasons, for a number of different policy reasons.

We identified that several years ago that that pool would be drying up regardless and consequently that was part of the initiative to undertake a more extensive retention strategy. Mrs. Driedger: In April of 2002 in the National Post there was an

article about the issue of a pediatric shortage on the brink of crisis. They talked about a looming crisis in that profession, an increasing shortage of doctors who specialize in care for the young, a deficit many fear will mean substandard treatment for children in the future. In fact in the

article it says we know that the number of pediatricians who are currently going into pediatric programs at universities will not replace the number who plan to retire. Has there been anything done in Manitoba to address this concern or is this concern not reflected in the numbers in this province? Mr. Chomiak: There is a tendency to try to respond to the needs and the shortages. For

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 351 example, several years ago there was a difficulty–anesthetist training. We have managed to deal with that diffi culty by increasing the residency positions in training. Recently now, for example, urologists have been a problem. We are very fortunate that we have three Manitobans in urologist training here in Manitoba to reflect that. I will find out about the pediatric issue specifically for the member. The real crunch has been in the family doctor.

There has been a real reluctance to specialize in family medicine and that has been one of the more recent challenges that some attention has been paid to. I will check specifically with pediatricians in pediatric training. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what his position is on the existence of Internet pharmacies in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Internet pharmacies exist in Manitoba. We had an extensive talk about pharmacists, as I recall last Estimates, when we talked about some of the challenges facing the profession, and I thought we had a rather good discussion on that.

Suffice it to say that we have been trying as a government to reconcile the various interests concer ning pharmacists, con- cerning patients, provision of drugs to Manitobans, maintaining an industry, main- taining safety and ensuring that we have a sufficient supply of pharmacists. We have been trying to balance those interests which is one of the reasons why we appointed Wally Fox- Decent to mediate between the parties. Ultimately the mediation, by a narrow vote, was rejected by the membership of the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association. We continue our mediating efforts in this regard. Mrs.

Driedger: Does the minister have any position on these Internet pharmacies? Mr. Chomiak: It is important that patient safety and provision of services to Manitoba and ensuring that supply is provided to Manitoba, that pharmacists are able to provide services to Manitoba is of paramount importance. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, do Internet pharmacies serve Manitoba patients at all or just American patients? Mr.

Chomiak: I think there are a variety of types of Internet pharmacies, some of which exclusively deal, I believe, with out-of-province matters and some of which there is joint Manitoba-international relationships, but I think they are kept separate. Mrs. Driedger: Prior to the establishment of on- line pharmacies in Manitoba, can the minister tell me if there was an impact study initiated by the Government? Mr. Chomiak: I am sorry? Mrs.

Driedger: Prior to the establishment of on- line pharmacies in Manitoba, was there any impact study initiated by the Government as to what impact Internet pharmacies would have in this province? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, if the member is talking about a study undertaken by Industry and Trade or economic development, I am not aware of any study with respect to the impact of Internet pharmacies. Mrs. Driedger: Since the Internet pharmacies have been up and running for some time now, has the Government asked for a review to determine now what the impact might be at this point in time? * (11:50) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, we have an ongoing relationship with all of the parties involved, and we are playing a mediation role in terms of trying to ensure both the safety of patients and effective ut ilization of resources at this time. So to answer the member's question, we are involved actively with all of the organizations as well as providing a mediating role in this regard. Mrs. Driedger: There have been a number of media reports about shortages of hospital and community pharmacists as a result of the establishment of these Internet pharmacies.

I wonder if the minister has reviewed this situation and if he has any comment on it.

352 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, as we discussed in previous year s' Estimates, there has been some difficulty in terms of pharmacist shortage for several years nationally and internationally. It has been a continuing challenge to meet the requirements.

It is no secret, as I indicated at the last Estimates debate, that it has put pressures on the public system, particularly the hospital sector, to match salaries in the private sector, which effectively pharmacists are, in order to keep them within the public sector, although that trend started even before Internet pharmacies became a major activity. Mrs. Driedger: There have also been media reports of shortages of medication for Manitoba patients as a result of Internet pharmacies. Has the minister reviewed this and does he have any comment on it? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, we do keep active review of this.

We have asked for regular reports to us in this regard. I am not aware at this time of any specific reports regarding shortages for Manitoba patients. In cases where pharmaceutical companies have expressed their desire to limit supply to Manitoba suppliers, we have corresponded with those companies indicating that notwithstanding the disputes they might have, it is incumbent upon them to provide a supply to Manitoba patients. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister comment on the benefits of Internet pharmacies to the province of Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chairperson, I think the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk) has commented about the economic ramifications of Internet pharmacies to Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to thank the minister for those responses. I will move on to another topic on waiting lists. Diagnostic waiting lists for CT, ultrasound, MRI and maybe stress tests have increased from 1999 according to the latest numbers. In one area there has been a dramatic improvement and that is bone density testing.

I would like to ask the minister why there has been such difficulty in trying to achieve what his Leader had said would be achieved back in the 1999 election, when there was a promise to cut wait lists for an MRI to eight weeks, ultrasounds to one or two weeks and CT scans to two weeks. Yet, in the latest numbers for all of those areas, they are well beyond that particular commitment that the Premier (Mr. Doer) made. I do realize that there is more volume being added to the system all the time, but there was also more volume added when we were in government too.

Despite the volume increases that we had to deal with, we had developed a very aggressive plan to get those waiting lists down, and now they have gone way back up. I wonder if the minister can just indicate why there is such difficulty in addressing this. Mr. Chomiak: As the member has correctly identified, in every single one of those areas we have increased dramatically the provision of the service, and volume has gone up very dramatically.

The member will also be aware that we have expanded the number of machines, both CAT scans, and now with the first time ever, an MRI outside of Winnipeg that will be going into Brandon. One of the key factors, if not the key factor, affecting the wait list issue has been the ability of trained individuals. The member might be aware that the drop-off in training programs in the nineties has dramatically affected the ability to deal with wait lists. Ultrasound is the most significant example. An example of very much a success was the reduction of cancer treatment in half, reduction of volumes in half.

That could be attributed to a variety of factors, not the least of which was now we are at almost capacity with radiation therapists and are retaining all of our trained radiation therapists. That is our goal in all of the areas, with respect to a diagnostic waiting list, both an expansion of the training for the individuals involved and a retention of those individuals involved.

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 353 Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister think that the promises put forward in 1999 were quite unrealistic to achieve? Mr. Chomiak: Is the member talking about the promises of the Conservatives, or is the member talking about the promises that we made in the `99 campaign? Mrs. Driedger: The minister knows very well if he wants to get into this again, I can go there. I can rehash all of their 1999– Mr. Chomiak: Please do not. Okay, I give up. I surrender, Myrna, I surrender. Mrs. Driedger: I can do it.

I am trying to give him a little bit of a break here by not reiterating all of those. If he listened to my comments really carefully, he will see that I am trying to be– Mr. Chomiak: Okay. I appreciate that. I appreciate the comments of the member. The member will know we have diligently worked hard and we have reduced some waiting lists. We are working on reducing others, and that will continue to be a high priority, one of the highest riorities of this Government. p Mrs. Driedger: I know the question was probably putting the minister in a very awkward position.

I will answer it and say that it was an unrealistic promise that was made, because it is very difficult to achieve. In honour of the member from Flin Flon that is here, his hospital, I think, was closed for a few weeks to surgery this summer because of a doctor having to have surgery, I believe, and another one that was on holidays. I wondered if the minister could indicate if that particular problem has been resolved and why they might not have had an ability to have a physician there on locum or something to have aken over for the area. t Mr.

Chomiak: In that case there were some unanticipated events that occurred that under the circumstances even the best planning could not have anticipated. We have asked that that situation be remedied. I will have to leave it at that. Mrs. Driedger: There is another situation from Flin Flon. A Helen Hunter [phonetic] has wanted to bring her ailing father back to their home, well, back to at least the community for special care. She has actually circulated a petition since May to have her father brought closer for long-term ps ychiatric and geriatric care.

It asks for the province to set up a long- term special care facility in northern Manitoba for patients such as this. Is there any activity appening to look at making this happen? h Mr. Chomiak: Yes, there is. In fact there is a bed allocation in the new upcoming Thompson personal care home for brain injured within the Thompson personal care home to try to meet ome of the needs of northern Manitoba. s Mr. Chairperson: The time being 12 noon, I am interrupting the proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following the conclusion of routine proceedings. Thank you.

AGRICULTURE AND FOOD * (10:00) Madam Chairperson: (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Good morning. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be considering the Estimates of the epartment of Agriculture and Food. D When the committee last met, there had been agreement to skip ahead and consider the items contained in Resolution 3.3. Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation on page 36 of the Main Estimates. Is that still the will of the ommittee? [Agreed] C The floor is now open for questions. Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Chairperson, yesterday, during questioning, the minister on the whole application of, first of all, the loans program, I think the minister indicated that they had distributed approximately 900 applications. I believe she indicated there was $4.1 million approved and 113 loans as of September 8, and there were 131 in process at the field reps' offices. Is that correct? Does that till stand? s Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): The numbers that I gave the member were numbers as of September

354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 8. Of course, those numbers are changing every day, but those are the numbers that I have here. There are applications being processed at about the 900 number, that is, applications where the preliminary work has started and some of them have taken their applications home to complete them, but they are in the system. There are 131 that are back in the office and being processed and 102 that have been approved and the money is being distributed. I have to remind everyone at the table that those numbers will continue to change.

Now the harvest is getting a little closer to being completed, there will be more interest and more time that the producers will have to pick up applications, but they are moving along. I wanted to also indicate that the turnaround time on these applications is very quick. The staff in the regional offices and the field representatives are working diligently, and the turnaround time, in all cases, is very quick. You can see turnaround times of four days, five days. The longest turnaround time we have to date is thirteen days.

They are going at this very quickly, and the time from approval to distribution of funds as well. The average turnaround application approval process is eight days, and the disbursal of funds happens in just about ten days. When the individuals make the application and get it back to the credit corporation the turnaround time is very quick, and, as I say, the number is around 900, but that was on the 8th. I am sure that there are more now. * (10:10) Mr.

Penner: Just a day ago you used the term "distributed," 896 loan applications distributed, and it was very apparent that there was some question as to how these had been distributed. We have information that there were some direct mailings done to some individuals that received these applications in the mail without having applied for them. I wonder whether the minister could today verify that. Ms. Wowchuk: My understanding is that the person has to request the application before it goes out.

If the member has names of people that have received direct mailings I would certainly like to know about that, but I can also go back to check with staff, because, as we had discussed yesterday or the day before when we had the staff from MACC here, we were told and I have been told that there is not a direct mailing. The applications are available at the offices, but if you phone in an application will be sent to you. That is my understanding. Mr. Penner: Would there be a possibility that some of the local offices and/or officers might have seen fit to mail them out to farmers at their discretion? Ms.

Wowchuk: The information that I have been given when I had the discussion with the staff at MACC, and the issue was raised here the other day, was that an individual had to make, you know, call the field officer or call the MACC office directly and that the applications were then forwarded, but if you are saying, sir, that there are some offices that have been mailing them out I would be very prepared to check that out, because, as the program is set out, it should be that the application comes at the request of the individual or a request from a family member, that somebody asks for an application or comes into the office and picks up an application.

I think it is a good idea if they pick up that application at the office. That then gives the opportunity for the field staff or someone at the office to go through the application in the preliminary stage to just point out what is needed with it before they take those papers home and start to work on them. Mr. Penner: I believe, if I remember correctly, yesterday in response to a question the minister used that 800- and-some number in the House, leaving the impression that there were actually 800- and-some loan applications that either had been approved or were in the process of approval.

That is the impression that many people got out of the response that the minister gave yesterday in Question Period in the House. Can the minister then now tell this committee what she actually meant by that? Ms. Wowchuk: Any time I talk about the loans, I talk about applications being in process. That means that that individual is registered in the system. They have picked up an application;

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 355 they have talked to somebody at MACC, and given an indication that they are interested in getting information about the loan. I think that that is prudent, that if you have given out an application, you collect some preliminary information from the individual, get them started in the system, into the database, so that when they come back, you do not have to repeat the process. What I have said and will continue to say is that as of September 8, applications being processed exceed 900. The stats as of September 5 was at 896.

Those are ap plications that are in process. As of September 8, there were 131 applications that have come back with information on them. Those applications are being worked on in more detail. The analysis is being done on those. As of September 8, 102 applications have been approved. Mr. Penner: So there have been 113 as of September 7 or 8; 113 have been approved; 131, you said a day ago, were in process. That would leave in process and in approval state, 244 applications. Is that correct? Ms. Wowchuk: The applications in process as of September 8 were 131.

A hundred and two have been approved, so that gives us a total of 232 applications that are in process and in approval. There are about 900 that are in the process of being registered into the system and getting their information. Considering that this program has only been in place for a month, I think that that is a fairly significant number given that under the Producer Recovery Loan that was put in place in 1999, the total uptake of that program was under 700.

I would say that for the first month of a program being available, there is quite a high level of activity, and when I talk to the staff at MACC, they tell me that this is a full workload, that they are working diligently. There is overtime being put in to be sure that those applications can be processed as quickly as possible. That is why we have the short turnaround time that we have in this program. Mr. Penner: Well, let me remind the minister, and I made very careful notes.

Just a day ago or a bit better than a day ago, I asked her these same questions, and she said there had been 896 distributed, and she said there were 652 in the field reps' possession. There were 113 approved as of September 8 and there were 131 in process. That is the answer I got then. Now I am getting a different answer. Now I am getting that there are 102 approved as of today. I would like to know how many are in process, in real process, as of today, when, in fact, only two days ago, there were 131 in process, at the field reps' offices, those 131. That is the answer you gave two days ago. Ms.

Wowchuk: Well, I am giving the member the exact same information that I gave him when we had these questions before. I have the same sheet before me, that I am reading from, that I had before. This information is of September 8, on Monday, when I said that applications being processed are in excess of 900. That means that those people have asked for an application form. The preliminary data on them has been entered into the system and people have taken these applications home with them to begin completing their application. As of Monday, September 8, there were 131 applications in process.

That means these applications have now come back to MACC and they are being reviewed. Those are bei ng reviewed. There are 102 that have been approved as of September 8. Those are the numbers that I put on the record at our last sitting. I know there is more activity. That is the information I had two days ago and that is the information that I put on the record then. * (10:20) Mr. Penner: Well, I am not going to argue about 11 approvals because when I made careful note of this I asked twice what the real number

356 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 was in the field reps' possession and the minister said 652 were in the field reps' possession. She said there were 131 in process and there were 113 approved as of September 8. Today there are only 102 approved. Can I ask then what the total amount of dollar approval has been till now? I just want to make sure that I get that right as well. Ms. Wowchuk: The total amount of loans approved as September 8 was about $3.8 million. Mr. Penner: The amount that the minister gave on September 8 was $4.1 million. Today it is 3.8.

That would probably coincide with the reduction of 11 loan applications which would amount to about $300,000 less than what there is today, and at $30,000 a loan that would just about take care of that. So I can talk to my neighbours and tell them there was $300.8 million approved as of today. Is that correct? Ms. Wowchuk: I am sorry, could you clarify that? Mr. Penner: Madam Chair, $3.8 million has been approved as of today. Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, as of September 8, there were 102 loans approved for about $3.8 million. Now I would have to check the record on the numbers and I will check Hansard on those numbers.

I cannot see how I gave different numbers but I will certainly check Hansard. I was using this same sheet of paper. It says, as of September 8, 102 loans approved for about $3.8 million. Mr. Penner: I just want to make very sure, after hearing the minister in Question Period yesterday and how she answered the question, it would lead one to believe that she was trying to mislead the general public. I think that was unfortunate. If it was a mistake then I accept that. I would accept that she made the mistake.

I obviously was also wrongly under the impression that numbers that I was given on September 8 were 113 approvals and 131 in process, for a total amount of $4.1 million. Today I am getting the answer of 102 approvals, 131 in process and $3.8 million approval. If those numbers are correct– Madam Chairperson: Order, please. Ms. Wowchuk: I want to corre ct something here for the member. Let me just look at this. Thank you. I have been and I apologize to the member if I have–my deputy just provided me with this sheet of paper that I may have been looking at on Monday.

Could the member say, was 118 the number that I gave him on Monday? An Honourable Member: Madam Chairperson, 113. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, I guess that might have been September 9 numbers. I will now update the member with the September 10 numbers because, as you know, applications continue to be approved. I was reading from the September 8 document. We now have new information as of yesterday, so I will update the member on what has happened in the last two days. As of September 10, there are now 118 loans that have been approved, so you can see that there is activity there.

One hundred and eighteen and the amount of approval is about $4.4 million– $4,368,046. That is of September 8. So if I gave the member information that was different– An Honourable Member: Madam Chairperson, $4.3 million? Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Chair, the figure is $4,368,046. So you can see from these numbers that they are changing and there is an increased amount of activity. From the 8th to the 10th there were an additional 16 loans that were approved, and I am sure that, if we got updates again today, those numbers would be changing again. Mr.

Penner: The reason I proceeded on this line of questioning is because of how the minister answered in the House yesterday, leaving people with the understanding that we were dealing with 800 loan applications, leaving the impression that there were 800 farmers who had already been dealt with, which is not correct. There have been 116 who have been dealt with. They have been approved as of September 10 for

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 357 loans and that is how the minister should have answered the question I believe. It is an attempt, I believe, from time to time, and it has almost become a regular occurrenc e in this department, not from the department, but from the minister and the minister's office, that they have misled people. First of all, a $15-million feed assistance program which actually turned out to be $10 million of which actually only $4 million have been approved.

And I hope her colleagues sitting at this table are listening to what is being said because it is extremely important for ministers to maintain an integrity, not only in this building, but outside of this building, and to try and get people to believe that there were $15 million extended under a feed-a ssistance program which the Premier made a big to-do about announcing that they were taking it out of the federal- provincial agreement and putting it into a feed assistance program that will ensure cattle that were on feed would in fact, or the farmers would, in fact, have money to continue feeding these cattle.

And then for that minister to say it would be a program that would terminate on October 15 and then, without any public announcement, terminating the program at the end of August, leaving these people with a month and a half's worth of planning, leaving them in limbo, and, again, I focus on the integrity of the minister and the minister's office. It is not the department. It is the minister's office and her communicators who are misleading the general public to believe that there is something that is not there. I think that is extremely serious. The honourable member opposite this table is correct.

It is extremely, extremely serious. Madam Chairperson: Order, please. * (10:30) Point of Order Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Madam Chair, the member has repeatedly used the words "integrity" and "misleading." He may choose to use those words, but I think that guidance from our chairs has been repeatedly that the choice of words should be made thoughtfully, carefully, and that basically I think our Speaker has ruled a number of times that all me mbers are honourable members and that raising questions of integrity without having clear evidence that would support such a serious charge is inappropriate nd unparliamentary. a He may choose to do this for his own partisan reasons, but I would appeal to you, Madam Chair, and through you to him to do what I think Manitobans most need, and that is to have this Legislature working together in a united way on behalf of farmers and all citizens but particularly at this time on behalf of those whom he purports to speak for and to put pressure in the appropriate place, which is the federal level, to get the APF signed and to get the money flowing so that farmers have real money to which they are entitled under those rograms. p I would appeal to him through you, Madam Chair, to be constructive in his criticism and not to impugn your integrity, which I believe to be of the highest order, nor the integrity of our Premier, which is of the same order, and to conduct this debate in a much more civil manner.

Madam. Chairperson: Thank you. On the point of order it is clearly not a point of order, but I do appreciate the caution that I have previously suggested that we carefully choose our words. It is obvious that it has created some disruption. I would appeal to all members of this committee, as was stated, we are all honourable members, to please respect that and choose words carefully and maintain the dignity of the intent of this. * * * Mr. Penner: Madam Chairperson, I hold and have a high respect for the honourable minister that has just spoken.

But let me remind that honourable minister it is imperative that those of us that are charged with the responsibility of being a minister speak for all of the people of Manitoba and should speak with integrity and should speak in all honesty, and, when they portray government action, it should be done accurately. This document clearly states that there is $15 million reallocated into a feed assistance

358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 program. This minister informed not this committee, not the general public, but after being questioned by farmers– Madam Chairperson: Order, please. Could I remind the member to please speak through the Chair. Mr. Penner: Madam Chairperson, after being questioned by farmers why that program had been prematurely terminated, she admitted that there was only $10 million in that program and that there was only just a bit better than $4 million having been paid out of this program when they terminated it.

The program and the announcement clearly indicated it would be in place until October 15. Is that being honest with the people of Manitoba? Should we then not call, Madam Chairperson, the integrity of the minister– Madam Chairperson: Order, please. Point of order. Point of Order An Honourable Member: – call the integrity of the minister– Madam Chairperson: Order, please. An Honourable Member: Point of order. A n Honourable Member: –and the– Madam Chairperson: Order. An Honourable Member: –Premier into question for the benefit of the people of Manitoba? An Honourable Member: Point of order.

An Honourable Member: Put a sock in it, Jack. A n Honourable Member: Point of order. An Honourable Member: And now, Madam Chairperson, the minister said put a sock in it. I think that demonstrates clearly the integrity of that minister as well. Shame on you. Madam Chairperson: Point of order. Order, please. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Chairperson: Order, please. Could we please try to maintain some sense of decorum in this committee.

This is a particularly serious matter we are discussing, and I do believe that this kind of discussion is taking away from any ind of productive conversation that could occur. k Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order, the member is reading from a news release that was put out on July 31. He said the news release said the program would go until September 15. I would– An Honourable Member: October 15. Ms. Wowchuk: October 15.

I would like him to point out where in that news release it says the program will go to October 15, because I have the news release in front of me and what it says that I announce today a reallocation of the existing $15 million in approved funding of the SE compensation package. B Madam Chairperson: On the point of order, there is no point of order but clearly a dispute of facts. I would like to remind everyone that points of order are to be used to bring to the Chair's attention a breach in the rules or unparliamentary language. They are not to be used for debate. hank you. T * * * Mr.

Penner: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. I believe that what we have just discussed and the attitude that has been displayed here not by the Minister of Agriculture but her colleague sitting in committee here clearly demonstrates the disdain that that minister has for the process. This is a process, the committee process is a process to get at the truth. That has always been the intent of the committee and the reasons for the committee to make sure that we have the ability to question the minister.

If the minister of technology is now telling this committee that that is not the case anymore and, as he said to me, that I should put a sock in it, I think that is indicative of the kind of disdain that the member has for the critic's esponsibility. r It is my responsibility, as a critic for Agriculture, to get at the bottom of where this

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 359 minister is taking this industry. There is a great deal of fear in rural Manitoba, and all those members sitting on the government side of the House should have a great deal of concern about what the minister of technology just said at this table because it implies that my role should be muzzled by indicating to put a sock in it. I think the minister needs to sincerely rethink what he said. I think he owes this committee and he owes the Manitoba Legislature and the people of Manitoba an apology.

I ask, Madam Chairperson, whether you would ask the minister to apologize and retract is statement. h * (10:40) Mr. Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I would be glad to respond, Madam Chair, that when you call a committee to order, repeatedly and clearly, it is the duty of every member to be silent in their place and sitting. The Speaker has made that clear a number of times, and I would hope that all members would obey your instructions in the future. I have no regrets about reminding my honourable friend of the rules of the House, which is when the Speaker asks for order, you shut up. Mr.

Penner: I think the people of Manitoba are recognizing by what has been said in the Chamber and how this Government has elevated certain people to certain positions and they therefore need not be responsible anymore to the general public and the people, I think the minister of technology has just demonstrated that again. So, Madam Chairperson, I will take that for what it is worth.

Agai n, my respect for the minister has declined just slightly over the last ew minutes, and I deeply regret that. f Madam Chair, I want to ask the minister, when she said yesterday that the reason she signed on to the APF agreement was to be able to flow money to the cattle producers and that they had committed 40- some-odd-million dollars to the APF process, which would trigger another some odd $60 million by the federal government, can she inform this committee if when she made that statement that she had any written agreement from the federal minister that he, in fact, would cause extraordinary measures to be taken to be able to flow money to the cattle producers of Manitoba immediately?

Ms. Wowchuk: I just want to go back to the question that was asked earlier where the member said that the numbers were different. I have checked with MACC and the numbers that I read into the record on September 9 were the September 9 numbers. Today I erred and referred to the September 8 numbers. I have also put on the record the September 10 numbers. So, if there was a misunderstanding, it was my error in reading the numbers off the wrong day. So I apologize to the member if that was a problem, but I have now updated.

The numbers that I put on the record were September 9, and I have now given him September 10 numbers. About the issue of the $15 million, I can say, as I have said in the past, that when we were putting in the BSE recovery program, the slaughter program, we did it in consultation with the industry on an ongoing basis. In fact, there are regular meetings between my department and the Manitoba Cattle Producers. The program that was designed was their recommendation to put a program in place for the fed animals.

We were always told that if we moved those fed animals out of the system, more animals would be able to come in. After the program was put in place, the Manitoba Cattle Producers came back to us and said, you know, the program is not working for us because we are not getting access to the slaughter capacity. Will you change the program? Will you change the program within the dollars that are there? They asked us to change it to a feed program and that we would work within the dollars that we had and use that money for the animals on feed. We thought that there was about 40 000 animals on feed.

When the applications started to come in, the number of animals is over 70 000 animals on feed. Because the agreement was that we would work within the dollars that were

360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 there, that is what we have had to do. There is a preliminary payment been made, there are still applications coming in and we are working to make the second payment. The Cattle Producers met with my department and they were told of the number of animals on feed in this province. We said that we would have to adjust the program accordingly.

We then also said that we were signing the Agricultural Policy Framework agreement and we had a commitment from the federal minister who told us over an Agriculture ministers' conference call, and he put out a news release on August 18 where he indicated that there would be interim payments flowing to those producers in those provinces that had signed on to the Agricultural Policy Framework agreement.

We, after discussion with the industry and farm organizations, decided the changes we got to the framework agreement were improvements to the program and that we would go ahead and sign the agreement and then continue to work on further improvements to the program, as you do with any other program, as was done with AIDA, as was done with CFIP, and as was done with GRIP when the previous government was in place. You talk about people who stand up for the farmers, there was a program that could have flowed a lot of money into farmers' hands.

It would be interesting to know why the previous administration cancelled that program when Ontario still has it and they are still flowing money through that program. We cannot bring it back because of trade agreements. The previous administration could have made a decision to keep the program but the truth was it was starting to get quite expensive and lots of money would have been flowing to farmers. The prices of grain went up so there was a difference. Had the program stayed in place it could have helped a lot more producers than it did. All governments make changes.

Certainly, the previous administration made some changes that were not in the best interests of producers. We work very closely with producers and we have put in place the feed program. We have put in place a loan program. We have put in place a program that will start to increase our slaughter capacity in this province and we will continue to work with the industry. What we have to remember in all of this is the most important thing we can do is work toward getting that border open. That is what has to happen. Without the border opening we will face more serious problems. There is some movement.

The cut meats are starting to go across the border and that will increase the amount of slaughter but we still have to work toward getting the live animals going across the border. We have to increase our slaughter capacity and we have to start getting the federal government involved, because, in reality, the federal government has refused to recognize that there is a drought in this part of the world. The federal government has refused to recognize that there is a need for cash flow. It is the Province that has put in place a program that will allow for cash flow.

The federal government has done very little to address our concerns about the need for a national cull-cow strategy. Mr. Penner : I want to go back to the $15- million announcement that the minister made in regard to the feed assi stance program. Is the minister now saying that there was never any initial commitment made and/or comment made that that program would be from June 15 to October 15? * (10:50) Ms. Wowchuk: As I said, it was in discussion with the Cattle Producers that we made the decision to change this program, because we were not getting access to slaughter capacity.

The Manitoba Cattle Producers came to us with a formula based on 140 animals on feed. With 140 animals on feed we talked about them having enough money within the program. I am sorry, I have got my numbers, I said 140 animals, I mean 40 000 animals on feed. So, if you take 40 000 animals and you figure out within the money that we had, we thought, and the Cattle Producers said, we should be able to feed about for 150 days. That was the discussion, that we would be able to feed for about 150 days, but it was always understood that if there were more

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 361 animals then the date would slide. It would work within the dollars that we had there. There is a document, I have it with me right here, that the Manitoba Cattle Producers put together where their suggestion was a 150-day period with a maximum payout of $3.9 million. The last line of the document that the Cattle Producers put forward was that the total value would accumulate to approximately $14.6 million for the provincial portion. So that is what, when we were talking with the Cattle Producers, it was within.

But everybody knew that if the number of animals went up, then the number of days would have to go down. When the number of animals went to over 70 000 animals, we knew that we had to make the adjustment accordingly, and this was what the discussion was with the Cattle Producers, that we were working within that amount of money. The Cattle Producers, although they anticipated that the numb er of animals on feed would be less and we could keep the program longer, were not taken by surprise because they were aware of the number of animals that had come in for application.

Now, I do not want the member to say that we are now blaming the Cattle Producers, because this program was designed in consultation with the Cattle Producers. It was their suggestion. Just as it was the cattle producers of Canada who made the suggestion on how the slaughter program should work, it was the Cattle Producers that lobbied us to change the program to have a feed component within the program. It was never intended to take all of the money away from the slaughter program, because we still continue that program. Under that slaughter program, in the range of $10 million has been paid out.

That portion of the program is 60-40. The slaughter program is 60-40. So if it was about $10 million, our share is about $4 million. The balance of the money within that pool is the money that we are using for the feed program. Mr. Penner: Is the minister now saying that Government never used the term June 15 to October 15? Ms. Wowchuk: We were working within the allocation of $15 million. We were working on the assumption that there were 40 000 animals on feed.

Based on those numbers, we did say that we would be able to start the program in June and we anticipated that we could take it to October, but there was always an understanding that if the number of animals grew then we ould have to work within those numbers. w It was a $2 a day feed program and the number we started out working with was 40 000. As the numbers grew, we had the discussion with the Cattle Producers and said these numbers are going higher. We have a certain amount of money and we are going to have to make the adjustment based on those dollars. Mr.

Penner: I would just like to make comment before the Minister of Energy (Mr. Sale) leaves the room. I just want to make sure he knows the minister has now admitted that the program was designed to last if monies were available to ctober 15, just so he clearly understands. O Madam Chairperson: Madam Minister has the loor. f Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Madam Chair- person. The member made a comment now that we said the program would run if the dollars were available. That is what we talked about. We talked about working within the allocation that was there with the number of animals that was there.

As the number of animals grew, we said to the Manitoba Cattle Producers: There are more animals on feed here. We are working within his pool of money. t I can also tell the member we have said as well, now that we are signing on to the Agricultural Policy Framework agreement there is going to be a different stream of money. As we have in the past, we will continue to look at this program. We made adjustments to it once, in June, when we saw it was not working for Manitobans and we will continue to work with the industry to make improvements to all rograms that we have in this province. p Mr.

Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): A question for the minister or her department. On the $10 million that you have paid out, or committed to pay out, do you have a breakdown that we could have on the ruminant animals that you paid out, or was this all just for the cattle industry, that 10 million? $ Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, there have been payments made on other ruminants besides cattle.

362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 11, 2003 Mr. Eichler: Are we going to have those figures available to us? Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, we will get them. In a few moments I will be able to give you the figures. Mr. Eichler: On the presumption that we did make payments which you have indicated and we will get those numbers shortly, in particular the bison industry, since they do not have the processment planning on making some con- sideration for the bison industry, or the sheep industry, or the elk industry, other than the cattle? * (11:00) Ms.

Wowchuk: As of September 4 under the slaughter deficiency program, there were 3133 steers and heifers. There were 2864 cows. There 182 bulls and 104 other animals. On the steers and heifers again I made a mistake on the numbers. It is 13 133 for a total of 16 283 animals and that is of September 4. Those numbers could increase slightly yet because there was quite a bit of animal movement at the end of the month and those people have time to get their applications into the system. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the hair C Mr. Eichler: That is on the recovery program, the slaughter program.

My question was on the feed program. Thank you for the information hough, I appreciate it. t Ms. Wowchuk: On the feeder-assistance program, steers and heifers 66 551; cows, 5561; bulls, 1239; other animals, 1217 for a total of 74 568. That is as of September 4, and as well there can still be adjustments to those numbers because people who have their animals on feed who had them on feed on May 20 could still be aking application. m Mr. Eichler: Just so I have it clear, Mr. Chairman, of the 74 000 that were under the program and we had allocated $15 million, we have spent $10 million.

Why could we not stay on until that money was fully committed? Ms. Wowchuk: We spent just around the $10- million mark on the slaughter deficiency program, the number I gave you at the top. As well there is an invent ory and price incentive program for the slaughter industry. On the slaughter program there were about 16 283. So that is the part where we have spent in the range of $10 million, and of that $4 million is provincial money. So that leaves us with about $10 million that was available for the feed assistance program.

That was what was available for the feed-assistance program that we were budgeting, working out a number around the 40 000 mark of animals and feed. Then, as the number of animals on feed came in higher, we were adjusting within that number. This was what the proposal was from the Cattle Producers. The Cattle Producers asked us to make changes within the existing program. They always knew that as the numbers of animals changed, we would have to change the numbers of days. We always knew that, within those dollars, we could make adjustments to the program, and that is what we have done.

We are still waiting to see whether more animals are coming in, but we know that there are much more than 40 000 animals. Mr. Eichler: I think this is probably, Mr. Chairman, where the confusion has come forward, and, at least for me, it certainly clears it up. The $15 million, in fact, was not all allocated for the feed program. There was $4 million that was committed to the BSE slaughter program. It was not $15 million. In fact, it was only $11 million. Is that correct? Ms. Wowchuk: We had a package of $15 million that was put in place for the slaughter program.

Because the slaughter program was not working for Manitobans because we did not have enough capacity, capacity that has been neglected for many years and not been updated, we could not get enou gh access into enough markets. The Manitoba Cattle Producers Association came to us and said we need a feed assistance program; let us work within those numbers. So it was working within those numbers. There was no specific amount that was tied to the slaughter program and no specific amount that was tied to the feed program. Based on the numbers that we

September 11, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 363 had, we were making assumptions on how much would go to the slaughter program. The best thing for us would have been to have all of that money go into the slaughter program, because then people would be getting their animals off feed. That was the goal, to get more animals slaughtered in this province, but also to work within those dollars to then address the feed situation. So we were working within those dollars. There was no specific amount that was set.

What we had said was a reallocation of the existing $15 million in the approved funding for the BSE compensation program. As I say, that is what the Cattle Producers asked us for. They came with a number of around 40 000 animals on feed and worked out a formula where we could feed animals for about 150 days. We worked from June 18 to October 17. Those were the dates we were working with, but we always knew that if the number of animals changed, we would have to adjust the number of days. That was clearly spelled out to the Manitoba Cattle Producers when we were working out this program. Mr. Eichler: Mr.

Chairperson, getting back to the $4 million, when did you have that figure available to you, before or after the announcement of the reallocation of the $15 million? Ms. Wowchuk: We did not have a number yet because by July 31 very few animals had moved. The number of animals that was moving to slaughter picked up toward the end of the program. As Alberta started to clean up more of their animals, more room became available at their slaughter facilities. So the increase of those animals going to slaughter was further down into the program.

When we made this announcement, I do not have the exact number, but by the end of July when we made this change, there was very little movement of Manitoba animals into slaughter facilities. That was disappointing for the producers because we thought that we would have equitable access to market and that about 10 percent of our animals would be moving through. That was not happening, and that was the pressure that was on the cattle producers that had animals in feedlots. That is why they asked us to make those changes. It was never new money. It was money within the $15 million that would go.

If there was more going for slaugh ter, well, then, more money would go there. If the slaughter animals were not going, well, then, more of the money would be used in the feed program. That was the request, to try to make an adjustment within the allocation to get money into the producer's hands. Because they could not get their animals to slaughter, then let us use this money to get it into the people that were feeding. But this was just for those people that had feedlots. That is what this program was built around, as again I was saying, at the request of the industry. * (11:10) Mr. Eichler: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I apologize for not following the proper procedure, a little bit new for me. Taking that into consideration and what has been said, I think the misconception that is probably out there to Joe Q. Public is the fact that they were under the impression that this $15 million was for feed. There was another amount that was for slaughter cattle. I think that is where the public has been somewhat uncertain about rea

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-1-05a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 1st hansardpdf 05a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1e78f5587ec20acf675f1fc2952f045e25a992e9

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