PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 3 5th Session 34th. General AS$8mbly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MARCH 26, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEO.flGE W. CLARKE

March 26th. 1971 The House met at 3:00 P,M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Tape 30 PK - 1 HON, F,W. ROWE: (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, at the last session of this House we approved an amendment to the Schools Act,whereby the Federation of ~chool Board Associations of Newfoundland and Labrador were given the right to be represented on the General Advisory Committee. Iain pleased to announce that,on the recommendations of the Federation of School Board Associations, the Govemment have appointed Mr. Geor~e C.

Rowe, C.A~ of Comer Brook to be the official representitive of the association, and Mr. J, G. Fitzpatrick of St. John's to be the altemate to Mr. Rowe. Mr. Rowe is President of the Integrated School Board Associations of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Mr. Fitzpatrick is the Executive Secretary of the Federation, which was created last year by a joint decision of the Integrated and the Roman Catholic Associations of School Boards in this Province.

The General Advisory Council is that body created by this Legislature with the right to advise the Minister of Education and the Government on all matters of education policy. It consists.of representatives of the Government, of all the churches, of the universities, of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association, and now of the Federation of School Board Associations.of Newfoundland and Labrador. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. C. M. LANE: Mr. Speaker, I would llke to present a petition on behalf of the fishermen of Little Catalina.

The prayer of the petition is.that durin~ the high tides and storms of January 16th. most of the fishing premises of that town were destroyed or damaged and the replacement is beyond the capability and"means of the fishermen of that area. While I know what I am to speak about is not a matt~r for the Provincial 145

March 26th. 1971 Tape 30 PK - 2 MR. LANE: Government, but a joint operation, yet the prayer of the petition is that,in due of present day conditions and circumstances, the quality of fish and the holding of fish, the Government is requested to build a coD111unity stage in the town of Little Catalina. There are quite a number of fishermen there, good fishermen, and it is impossible for them to replace the property which they have lost . and which had over the years deteriorated too.

I know that the scheme that was inaugurated some years ago,between the Federal and Provincial Governments, co11D11unity stage building has not been the success we had hoped it would be. But, still, I think, that something should be done for this very important fishing area, a summer fishing area mainly. I would ask that the hon. Minister of Fisheries give some consideration to this pro~osition. I am sure he will. I would now ask that .the petition be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. 146 - .... ~ : ... ......

l'Larcn £Otn, ~~,~ 1·ape Jl .JM - l MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, I would be very remiss indeed if I did not rise ~to support this petition because Little Catalina is only a stone's throw, ab~ut seven minutes to be exact from Bonavista to Little Catalina, and because there are a large number of fishermen who depend solely on catching fish to support their families. I would indeed,as I said earlier,be very remiss if I did not rise to 0 support this petition knowing the good people of Little Catalina like I do ·and I certainly support it. On motion, petition received. MR. STRICKLAND: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition signed by three hundred and thirty-one voters from Dildo in the district of Trinity South. The authenticity of this petition~! may add,has been assured by such men as the principal of the Goodland Elementary School, Harry Reid, Mr. Herbert J.A. Coffin, iector of the Anglican Parish of New Harbour, Mr. Percy, the district school supervisor and Captain M. Senior of the Salvation Army.

The prayer of the petition, Sir, is that there is a line of cribbing along the beach which protects fishing property and the road going through the settlement of Dildo 1which is 1300 feet long,and this wooden cribbing gets broken every Jear;through recurring expense,because of the high winds and ice along the beach. The petition is;they are asking that the wood cribbing be replaced by a concrete retaining .wall and in this way they will eliminate any further expense for many, many, many years to come.

I strongly support the prayer of the petition and ask that it be laid on the table of the House and referred to the Department to which it relates,and in this case the Department of Highways. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I have very much pleasure in supporting this petition. I have a copy of a letter from that area referring to this particular dangerous piece of road where,as the hon. member has said,there is some cribbing along. I have seen pictures of the area where with high eas the water completely covers the road.

I think there is some indication that the Highroads Department are talking of upgrading this particular

section of road but,according to the people I was speaking with, unless 147

• March L6th, 191! Tape 31 JM - 2 MR. MURPHY: you get a concrete retaining wall,some 1300 feet long,there the Government 1 just wasting its money. So I incerely support the petition aa presented by the hon. member for the district of Trinity South. On motion, petition received. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMI1TEES: MR.. NEARY: Kr. Speaker, I would like to table copies of the Child Welfare Amendment Regulations, 1970. I would also like to table copies of the legulations,amendment number two,of the Welfare Institutions Licensing Act. Hr.

Speaker, I would also like to table the 1970 annual report of the Worlanan's Compensation Board. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, I have pleasure today in tabling the report for the Royal Commission on forestry. This is the second Royal Coumission on forestry in this Province in fifteen years. It was headed by the former Deputy Minister of Forestry for Canada, Dr. L.Z. Rosseau. His colleagues 148

March 26, 1971, Tape 32, Pagel apb MR. CALLAHAN: on the commission were Dr. Richard McArdle, the former head of the United States Forest Service, and Mr. Hugh Hodgkins, recently retired vice-president of the Crown Zellerback Corporation. The secretary was Mr. T.A.Blanchard,who is now the Government's chief negotiator with public service employee groups.

The report contains various and far reaching recommendations, ranging from the fundamental question of effective public control of all the forest of this Province, to the establishment of a commercial forest corporation to be joint venture agency of the Government and private interests for the commercial management and utilization of forest lands and the redefinition of the role and the reorganization of the Newfoundland Forest Service as the chief public agency for recommending and enforcing forest policy, for planning, for.research and for protection • .. __ ___ , __ , -- The Government Mr.

Speaker, have already adopted some of the major recommendations of the Royal Commission, are studying still other recommendations and generally speaking consider that we have been_provided with sound up-to-date advice by three of North America's foremost experts in the field of forest development, conservation and use. In tabling the report today,Mr. Speaker, I might say that a limited number of copies are available in the clerk's office, and that they are in photostatic form. The permanent issue of the report is in the hands of the printer, and will be made available to the House and to the public in due course.

MR. SPEAKER: Further presentation of reports: Before we take up the next order, Notice of Motion, I would like to bring to the attention of the House the fact that we have in the galleries today. some twenty-five students, grade IX students from Booth Memorial, accompanied by their teacher Mr. Melvin Drover. I know that,as usual, this Rouse is very happy to see them. and will accord them a.hearty welcome. NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move the appointment of the following; Dr. Rowe, Mr. Chalker, Dr. Frecker, Mr. Collins, Mr.

Myrden, to constitute a committee under standing order no. 88, to prepare 149

March 26, 1971, Tape 32, Page 2 -- apb a list of members to compose standing committees of the Rouse, there named. MR. SPEAKER: Further notice of motion: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): yesterday. Mr. Speaker, the motion of which I gave notice MR. CURTIS: No. 11 MR. SPEAKER: No. 11? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: It is agreed that this committee be now named. The committee, under notice of motion of yesterday 1if it is agreed,will be as follows; 0 the hon. capt. Winsor, who is the member for Labrador North, Mr. Strickland who is the hon. member for Trinity South. Mr.

Mahoney,the hon. member for Harbour Main, Mr. Canning,the hon. member for Placentia West. The hon. Mr. Roberts,Minister of Health. Mr. Collins,the hon. member for Gander, and Mr. Myrden the hon. member for St. Barbe South. The motion is that these members whom I have just named be this committee, in accordance with the motion no. 11 on the Order Paper. Those in favour "aye," Contrary "nay," Carried. 150

MW Karch 26th., 1971 Tape no 33 Page 1 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS MR. ROWE (F.W.): Mr. Speaker, on the Order Paper of yesterday, March 25th., I believe, there is a question asked by the hon. member for Burin, Question no. 80. What baa been the pU})il-teacher ratio for each of the past ten yeara ln both elementary and high schools in Newfoundland? I have that information tabulated here. It is a considerable amount of statistical information. It would be of interest, perhaps, if I were to give the Bouae orally just the first and the last year for the pUl)il-teacher ratio for 1960-1961, whi.ch is the first year.

That year there were (can my hon. friend hear me now?) - I thought the House would like to have this part of the answer drawn to their attention. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, if the minister is going to answer the question verbally, we would like to have the whole question answered. If the mini ter is not, then he should just table the answer to the question. Is the minister tabling his answer or not? MR. SPEAKER: On that point of order, may I draw the attention of members to page 147 of Beauchesne, fourth edition, regarding the answering and asking of questions.

On page 153, citation ~81: "Questions must be anwered briefly and distinctly and be limited to the necessary explanations, -though a certain latitude is permitted to Ministers of the Crown whenever they find it necessary to extend their remarks with the ~iew of clearly explaining the matter in question." I think that answers the hon. members point of order. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, that citation does not answer my point of order at all. That citation say that if the questions are being answered "Verbally. That is the implication of the citation there.

If a question i  being answered by the tabling of the answer, Mr. Speaker, I submit that it is an entirely different matter. The hon. minister is not answering his questions verbally. Be said that it is voluminous, and he intends to table the document. Therefore, I submit to Your Honour that that is all the hon. wd.aiter says with respect to that question. If he is ansvering the question 151

11arch 26th., 1971 Tape no. 33 Page 2 Mr. Crosbie. verbally, then the citation applies. So, I would submit to Your Honour that it does not clear the air at all, that citation. MR. SPEAKER: If the argument presented by the hon. member for St. John's West is to apply, it means that a person just says, l table it •~ be passes ii to the clerk and it is tabled. I think it is reasonable to expect that any hon. minister or any other member who is answering • question, may be allowed enough latitude to clarify it. It says that the answers should be brief and distinct.

I do not think it is rea.sonable to expect that he cannot give an oral explanation of any part of the question for elucidation. I do not think that that would be fair to the ao'uae. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister is not attempting to give any explanation or clarification. Be 1a jUcSt attempting to give part of the information that he is going to table. What the ratio was in 1961 as to what the ratio ~sin 1971? He is not attempting to clarify his answer at all. MR. SPEAKER: I quite admit that it is not necessary,llf a person is going to table a question to answer it.

Other times, other members will insist what is the clarification. He is probably avoiding or anticipating an oral question or supplementary question in explanation of what he has already - Will the hon. member table his question or whatever explanation he can give, but make it brief? MR. ROWE (F • W. ) : Mr. Speaker, I 152

March 26 1971. Tape 34 page 1. I shall give the answer to this questio~ orally. I would like to tunk the hon. member for St. John'.s West, this is tvo day~ now.I think it~• going to become a habit. Thia is tvo days now that he has taken it on himself to advise ee and I presume he will be doing it for other members,as to how we should answer the questions.

With due respect to Your Bonour,I could inform the hon. member that I intend to do what I have been doing for this last twenty years and that is to answer questions in my own way without any help from the hon. gentleman. 1960-61 the ratio was 1 teacher to 29.86 pupils.

Perhaps if my hon. friend would permit me I could change that 29.86 to call it 30. 1961-62 the ratio was 1 to 29.70; 1962-63 the ratio was ltd Z8.1S~ ·196~64 the ratio was 1 to 27.87; 1964-66 the ratio was 1 to 26.93; 1965-66 the ratio was 1 to 26.43; 1966-67 the ratio was 1 to 26.28; 1967-68 the ratio was 1 25.92; 1968-69 the ratio was 1 to 25.26; 1969-70 the ratio was 1 to 25.22; 1970-71 the ratio was 1 to 24.96. In other words the ratio is one teacher to fewer than twenty-five pupils on an average in the classrooms of Newfound­ land on this day, twenty-sixth of March, 1971.

Ten years ago it was 1 to 30 approximately. Id case Mr. Speaker, any hon. member did not get a chance to copy down all these figures I will be glad to table them with 1 1 might say, additional information as well. I am sure the House would be very happy to kn!;'¥ that the trend has been so favourable to our boys and girls during the put ·ten years ::.in Newfoundland. MR.MARSHALL: A supplementary question Mr. Speaker. I wonder would the hon. the minllster be prepared to table comparative figures for the cities of St. John's and Corner Brook as well,over the same period of time. MR.ROWE: I would be glad Mr.

Speaker. perhaps Mr. Speaker if I may make a suggestion to uq hon. friend that he might put that on the Order Paper,so that I would know exactly what he wants,and I would be very happy to give him that information or for that matter any other rele,rant information on it. MR.COLLINS: Mr. lpeaker, as a further supplementary,vould the minister indicate 153

March 26 1971 Tape 34 page 2. to the House, he has already admitted that this is an average figure for New­ foundland and we have just heard some remarks about St. John's and Corner Brook, how does this figure compare with the average school,bearing in mind lack of apace etc. - ~he average school across the Province, places like Lewisporte and Glovertown and Botwood. MR.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would be glad if you would put that on the Order Paper too.

All I can say is that this is an average figure and we know that there are places in Newfoundland wl)ere there are classrooms wher• that average is not so favourable and there are others where it is even more fa~ourable.ln order to get 1 to 25, then there must be some that are 1 to more than 25 and others that are less than 1 to 25. If my hon. friend wants any specific figures 1 all he has to do is to put it on the Order Paper .• No secret. we publish this every year 1 in the supplement to the annual report of the Department of Education.

We publish it, ibere is a mass of figures there,it would take the average peron two weeks to read even,not alone to digest, I would be very happy to get any information - 154

March 26th. 1971 Tape 35 PK - 1 MR. ROtm-i had any information of that kind. It is no secret. And I might say nothing that anybody need to be ashamed of. RON. S.A. NEARY: (MINISTER OF SOCIAL SERVICES AND REHABILITATION): Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to three questions on today's Order Paper. Question No. 187 asked by the hon. member for St. John's East Extern. The answer to (1) is "yea." :(l}t"yea."

(3) Mrs. Julia Howell, Sergant Gerald Noaeworthy, Constable Wayne Coffin, and Mr. James O'Leary. I also have the answer, Mr. Speaker, to Question No. 185 on today's Order Paper asked by the same hon. gentleman. It is Question No. 185 and the answer is "no." The answer to Question No. 175 on today's Order Paper - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in connection with Question No. 185, have any complaints been received by the minister in connection with employees of Atlific Newfoundland,Limitedwb 0 operate the Holiday Inns Hotel? Specifically the one at St. John's? MR. NEARY: I have already answered the question. Mr.

Speaker, the answer is "no." MR. CROSBIE: The Minister answered the question about Holiday Inns (Atlffic L:lmited) there is no such company. On a technicality,should therefore be answered on that bases. Has their been any complaints from the operators of the Holiday Inn, the employees of the Holiday Inn at St. John's here? MR. NEARY: The answer is "no," Mr. Speaker, MR. CROSBIE: Fine. MR. NEARY: The answer to Question No. 175 on today's Order Paper asked by the hon. and learned member for St. John's West. MR. CROSBIE: Thank you. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to refer the hon. gentleman to another authority of Government in answer to part (1) and in answer to part (2). MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, is the hon. minister aayin~ that the minister does not know what the cost of these renovations 155

March 26th. 1971 'fape 35 PK - 2 MR. CltOSBIE: are or whether they are finished or not? And that this must be asked of the Minister of Public Works. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not what the costs are. MR. CROSBIE: How clever the hon. the Premier is. How clever. If he were only as clever as giving tw answers to questions in this House, and giving information it would be well appreciated. Does the minister not know whether these renovations are finished yet and what they cost? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my hon. and learned friend should know by now that all the matters are under:taken by the Department of Public Works. MR.

CROSBIE: And whose budget do they show up in? MR. RICKEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to Question No. 187: Would the minister be good enough to table the names or ihe answer to that question? Or would he be good enough to make them available to me? MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have the names if the hon. gentleman would like to have a copy. MR. CROSBIE: A .·supplementary ~f!stion, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Public Works,in connection with Question No. 175. Have the renovations c0111111enced by the Government at Exon House in St.

J.ohn' s, to prepare that building for use as a home and training centre for severly handicapped children.now being completed and, if so, on what date were they completed? BON. J. CHALKER: (MINUiTER OF PUBLIC WORKS): No actually they are just about completed, Mr. Speaker, and as a matter of fact the question is on the Order Paper of yesterday, I believe, which is being prepared ,and I will have the answer possibly on ~.onday. RON. E. DAWE, (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the answer to Question No. 3, asked by the hon. member for St.

John's Centre,on the Order Paper of Thursday, March 25th. The­ list of municipalities in Newfoundland and LabradorJindicating to each the amo1Dlt of the monthly water rates charged by them. Answer to Question Ho. 64 asked by the hon. member for St. John's Centre - The Provincial Appeal Board, ~r. Leo Stead. The remuneration received is in accordance with those paid by other Government Boards, that is $50.00 per meetinp,. The.members receive $35.00 per meeting. The other members of the Beard 1;; G

March 26th. 1971 Tape 3S PK - 3 MR. DAWE: are Mr. Arch Frost, Mr. Walter Dalton, Mr. Richard S. Murphy, and Mr. Graham Martin. Mr. Dalton and Mr. Martin who are civilian servants do not receive any remmeration in respect of their services rendered to the Appeal Board • .And I would like to point out as well that we do hold meeting in the West, an area of the Province,and that no remumeration is received -by the members of the board during their travelling time or any meeting are held after or to discuss any appeals that are received.

They actually receive remuneration only for the day on which they are sitting to receive appeals. MR. A. MURPHY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, did the hon. minister intimate that they travel at their own expense? MR. DAWE: I said, they did not receive any remuneration for the time in travelling. Their travelling expenses are paid, but they do not receive any remuneration in the time going to Corner Brook or the time coming back. They do receive remmeration actually for the days they are sitting. The travelling expenses are paid. - MR. T. RICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question,would the minister indicate approximately how many meetings would be held during the year? MR. DAWE: Well this is a new Appeal Board,.which has just been recently aet up and I understand they have had about three meetings in Corner Brook area and they do not have any meetings there until at least they had eight appeals to be heard, and that they meet f~om time tot~ or the time warrants within the City of St. John's and,while I am not quite familiar just exactly hov many meeting have been held, for you. BON. E. WINSOR: (MINISTER OF FISHERIES~ : _ I could get that information Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the answer asked by the hon. the member for Gander, appearing on today's Order Paper. Question No. 190. I would also like to answer the Queation No. 191 asked by the same hon. gentleman and the answer to part (1) is "thirty-three," and part

(2) The lut of August 1970. 157 ~--

March 26th. 1971 Tape 35 PK - 4 MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. WINSOR: Thirty-three. Yee, that is right, but other officials of the department have travelled to Labrador, when it is necessary. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. J.C. CROSBIE: On orders of the day I would like to ask a question, Hr. Speaker, of the Leader of the Rouse, and the member of the Internal Economy Committee. On March 12th.• Mr.

Speaker, well before the Rouse opened,! tabled 108 questions here, and despite the fact that two weeks and a day have passed since they were tabled, so far on the first two days of this session there are about tweuty on the Brder Paper. I know there are several hundreds of other questions have been tabled. Can anything be done to expedite the appearance of these on the Order Paper or to speed up the printers? What is the position? BON. L. R. CURTIS: (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, as I understand it any questions asked before the Rouse is opened should not be on the Order Paper at all.

I mean the Notice of Questions are suppose to be filed during the session of the House. There were a lot of questions filed before the House opene•L I do not think they are properly asked. MR. A. MURPHY: We. co-operate with the business of the House like we always do, giving them a chance to get the questions out. MR. CROSBIE: 'Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, the House has now been opened since Monday, March 22nd., these questions have been available since then. What is there to prevent them from being on the Order Paper? What is the problem? MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker,- I 158

Maren ~bth, 1~,1 Tape 36 JM - 1 MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, I have nothing to do with the Order Paper, I do not know who prepares it. MR. CROSBIE: Well, the Internal Economy Committee, MR. CURTIS: No, it does not. MR. CROSBIE: Does not the Internal Economy Committee have to do with the affairs of this House of Assembly and how its business is proceeded with? I cannot ask a question to the Speaker, I can ask - MR. CURTIS: I think it is the clerk. The Internal Economy. we have nothing to do with this in Internal Economy I think it is the clerk's office. Whoever prepares this we do not see it. MR.

CROSBIE: You take no reponsibility? MR. SPEAKER: The Speaker does not want to be drawn into any debate and he will not be drawn into any debate but for the purpose of clarification,the questions are cleared through the office of the clerk. The Speaker sees all the questions before they go to the printer and everything that can be done and everything that should have been done has &een done to expidite the printing of the questions on the Order Paper.

The clerk cannot answer for hiuelf here in the House but,just to clear this matter up for the benefit of all members of the House,there has been nothing left undone to speed up the printing of all the questions that have been received to date and I do not know how many they have numbered so far but I think it must be somewhere in the vicinity of 400, A great portion of them ai:e . .:..on the Order Paper and.,of course,the printer himself has ~omething to~say about how many he can conveniently put on an Order Paper or what his facilities are for printing these.

I just give that explanation,without being drawn into the debate. I think it is necessary. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, on that,it is a pity we cannot get the same gentleman who prepared the 700 questions for the Premier in three days that he mentioned today on his program •. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the acting Minister of Labour~ Would he inform the Rouse as to when we might expect to 159

March 26th, 1971 Tape 36 JM - 2 MR. RICKEY: have the report of the Royal C0111111ission on Labour tabled? MR. MARSHALL: Mr.•speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the I· • Minister of Justice. Could he inform the House whether the report into the affairs of the Town Council of Bay Roberta has been received yet and also inform the.House whether or not their report together with the evidence correlated at the hearings will be published? MR. CURTIS: That report, Mr. Speaker, will be made to the Department of Provincial Affairs and not to Justice. MR. MARSHALL: On that point, Mr.

Speaker, the report is made under· the Public Inquiries Act,which is under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Justice. If the Minister of Justice is noti.going to answer the question I would like to direct one to the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. The question I would like to ask him is;has the report into the taxation system of the city of St. John's been filed yet and 1 if not,when does the Minister expect it to be filed? MR. DAWE: The answer to the question, Mr. Speaker, is no, and we expect it momentarily. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, for the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs, can that hon.

Minister tell the Rause whether the Adams report,o~ the Commission of Inquiry into the affairs or otherwise of the town of Bay Roberts, has that been received yet? MR. DAWE: The Adams report has not been received by my department, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: Has it been received by anyone in the Government to the Minister's knowledge? MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, the report has not been received. MR. CROSBIE: Is it expected momentarily? MR. MARSHALL; I might ask the hon. the Premier,since he is giving the information. Could he tell us when the report is expected? HR. SMALLWOOD: No. MR.

MARSHALL: Will he tell us when the report is expected, Mr. Speaker? MR. SMALLWOOD: What is that laat question? 160

March 26th, 1971 Tape 36 n. MARSHALL: Will he tell us when the report is expected? MR. SMALLWOOD: No, I do not know. JM - 3 On motion that the House go into Coumittee of the Whole on Interim Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! At the last sitting we read the Resolution and we will now deal with the

schedule in the Bill. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before we start with the schedule. Is the procedure that we are going through the

schedule item by~item and then Clauses L and 2 of the Bill? MR. CHAIRMAN: The procedure we follow is to read the Resolution, go through the

schedule item by item and the clauses of the Bill item by item and then pass the Resolution. Sch~dule: Head of expenditure

(1) Consolidated Fund Services $45,000. MR.. CROSBIE: This item is on the Consolidated Fund Services for which last year,according to the estimates that were given to the House last year on current account~there will be an expenditure of $35,387,300., on capital account $11,525,900. The Consolidated Fund Services, Mr.

Chairman, deals with the debt repayment, the interest and principal repayment, the money that Government has borrowed in ~revious years,, Now that we are on Interim Supply and the Government is asking for the House to vote this money without having any particulars of the expenditure for next year,I ~elieve that this House is due an-explanation from the Minister of Finance on what the borrowing of the Government has been this year and how that will affect payment under Consolidated Fund Services in the year 1971-72. Mr.

Chairman, in the budget speech last year it was reported to ·.this House that borrowing for the year just ending·, that will end iii a few days time, would amount to altogether $56,243~000. General borrowings on the bond market were to be $29,415,000; $15, million was to come from the Canada Pension Plan, $11,266,000. from DREE loans, $561,000. from CMHC loans so that the total borrowing of the Province for the financial year that ends next wee~we were told by the Minister of Finance last year,would be $56. million of which only S29.5 million would be required to be borrowed by way 161

March 26th, 1971 Tape 36 JM - 4 Mil. CROSBIE: of debentures on the open money markets of the world. In case the hon. Minister of Finance has forgotten,he states that on page twenty-six. The Budget Speech was delivered by the hon. the Premier lut year, Mr. Chairman, so it had unusual authority,and on page twenty-six it was said: "The remainder of $29.5 million dollars will be obtained by the sale of debentures on the financial market." Now, Mr. Chairman, what is the -.•.actual position? How much are we going to need under Consolidated Fund Services this year? We underst~nd, Mr.

Chairman, from newspaper articles and from prospectus file, this is where we get our information on the financial affairs of this Province, Mr. Chairman, not in this House, not from this Government, no. We have to get it from newspapers - or we get . ' it when the Government is forced by law to give us t he information when they are out to borrow money. So our information todate comes from the pro,pectus for an issue of $25. million dollars worth 0£ bonds in the United States,March 15th of this year,and it .is now in_the process of aelling these bonds in the general market down in the United States.

According to the information in this prospectus, Mr. Chairman, the Government did not borrow simply $56,243,000. last year.lnstead it borrowed approximately $12S.l million dollars.which to me is twice the amount 162

March 26. 1971. Tape 37. Page 1 - apb MR. CROSBIE: M twice the amount that the Government estimated last year in the Budget Speech. it was going to borrow. Twice the amount. Rather than $29,415,000. in debentures as the hon. the Premier said in his Budget Speech rather than that , - now the hon. the Premier is not an accurate forcaster in any event, but for him to be wrong by so much. In actual fact, the Government borrowed this year on the bond market in debentures, $97.5 million. $97.5 million Mr.

Chairman, not $29.5 million, and unless there is something wrong with my arithmetic, twenty-ni~e from ninety-seven, could be seventy - five million ••••• AN HON, MEMBER: Sixty-eight. MR. CROSBIE: What? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sixty-eight. MR, CROSBIE: Sixty-eight, I am glad that I have a mathematician here. Sixty- eight million dollars out. In oth~r words Mr. Chairman, we borrowed three times aa much on the bond market this present year, as the minister of Finance, as the hon. the Premier told this House just a few short months ago in April I think, March or April of '70, that we were going to bormw. Now Mr.

Chairman, when the Government now comes to this House of Msembly and asks us to vote blindly, without any details, without telling us what the Government spent last year, when it asks us to vote them another $100 million. I remember Mr. Rowe said once in the Federal Parliament, ''What is a million?" Well this is a Government that says what is $100 million? It wants $100 million from this House without any explanation of it - any details. When that Government ,Mr.

Chairman ,does that, we expect some explanation of why the Government in 1970 - 71, borrowed $125 million, when they told this Rouse eight months ago that they were going to borrow $56 million. What was all this money needed for? What was it all used on'l Where are the warrants'l­ 'fhe Lieutenant Governor's warrants are not placed on the table of the House for us to see what it was spent on. There were two issues in the last twelve months Mr. Chairman of $15 million each on the Canadian market. That is a total , , of $30 million. There is a loan on the U.K. market for $22.5 million.

There waa a loan in Euro dollar-bonds, February 4, 1971, $20 million. There is a 163

March 26, 1971, Tape 37, Page 2 - apb present loan in New York March 15; 1971 for $25 million. $97.5 million. Mr. Chairman, on page 26 of the Budget Speech last year, we were told that the figures were given for the deficit on capital accounts. The complete deficit for last year, the year we are in now that ends next week, the complete deficit would have been.according to those figures would be somewhere in the vicinity of fifty or sixty million dollars, if those figures were right. When we look at the perspectus Mr.

Chairman, the perspectus of Hornblower & Weeks-Bemph~ll, Noyes (that is a name by the way, not a condition) and A.E.Aimes & Co •. , when we look at their prospectus using figures supplied t~em by the Government of Newfoundland, the Deputy Minister of Finance. Page 23, budget estimates 1971 for the Government of,Newfaundland. Deficit - deficit, $103, 206, 000. That is what this prospectus says,.~his prospectus goes to every person who might be interested in buying those bonds in the United States.

It has to comply with the requirements of the securities and exchange condition.~ They are very rigid down there, so the perspectus has to give certain facts. It has to give the truth. Here is where the p~ople of Newfoundland find that their Government this year did not have a deficit of just $50 million or $60 million, the ordinary old deficit of this Government. No, it had a deficit in one year that totalled more than all the money that the Province of Newfoundland owed in '49,before we went into Confederation.

The Island of Newfoundland then had a total owed of $100 million, and everyone thought it was a staggering burden. This Government has a deficit in the financial year 1970-71 alone, if this prospectus is to be believed,of $103,206,000. It has revenues on capital account up·to $48 million, I will ;Just use the round figures. It has expenditures and capital accounts of $151 million. There is something peculiar there.

As I look at the estimates, the estimates that this House ~assed last year, that the Government told us were accurate last year, I look at the official estimates, that is the Red Book for approval by the legislature, the Blue Book will not differ much. The total capital expenditure given in the estimates $95 million. $95 million. I look at the Hornblower, Weeks - Hemphill, Noyes and A.E.Aimes Co. perspectus and it is given 164

Karch 26, 1971, Tape 37, Page 3 -- apb as $151 million. According to that, the Government spent $50 million more in capital accounts last year than were in the estimates, producing a deficit in capital accounts of $103 million. There is an anticipated surplus shown on the current account which if my guess is correct will tum into a deficit when the audit is done of $97,000. giving an overall deficit of $103 million - $103,120,000 or Sl03,130,000 What is the explanation of all this, Mr. Chairman?

Would you not expect that when these alarming figures appear apparent that the Government would give this House some information about all this before it asks us to vote $100 million this year? What is the Government doing? Why was the Budget Speech forecast so far out? Why is it, that instead of borrowing $29.5 million in debentures the Government borrowed $97.5 million? Why is it that instead of a total borrowing of (I do not know what it added up to, fifty or sixty ail.lion) the total borrowing has been at least $125 million?

Why is it that our deficit this year,according to the forecast now of the Department of Finance, because the information here is given to these people by the Department of Finance, why is it that our deficit in this one year alone is $103 million? Does not anybody get worried or alarmed by that? ls the Government not at all worried or concerned about it? Look, here is the for the years since 156. 1966, deficit in capital accounts $27 million. (This is round figures) 1967, $76 million. 1968, $102 million. Now those two years were the result of extravaganzas during the earlier election campaigns.

By the way, this is the tight money period. She was tight during those year,the Government would have us believe. You could not borrow money during those years it was so tight, the money was. 165

March 26th., 1971 Page 1 Tape no. 38 Mr. Crosbie. $27 miilion in 1966; $76 million in 1967; $102 million in 1968 1 the deficit; $63 million in 1969;subject to audit in 1970 1 $56 million; budget estimate for 19711 a bumper year, No wonder the Premier went to the seal fishery. Be baa a bumper deficit - $103,206,000 - no wonder, no wonder the Govemment asked the House to vote them now $100 million in Interim Supply, without so much as a by your leave or blink your eye. What is $100 million, when you can have a $100 million deficit now in a year? The Budget Speech (I will get the date of it.

I have the date of it here) last year's Budget Speech - they have copies of this in the Department of Finance. So anybody who wants to see what our financial condition is and writes in for this Budget Speech will get a lovely book. There are some wonderful photographs in it. He will not get much information on our financial prospects. He will not get much information. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! I would like to call the attention of the visitors to the fact that in the House of Assembly visitors are not supposed to make their presence known by laughter or by applause or in anyway. Carry on please. MR..

CROSBIE: You will not get too much information on our financial condition, but you will get a lot of fine pictures. On page seventeen a picture of the hon. Minister of Community and Social Development, signing the DREE agreement. What has that got to do with the budget, I wonder? On page fourteen a picture of the Newfoundland courts - three Newfoundland courts. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would just like to say something, Could we stick a little more closely to the item under discussion now. This is not really the Budget Speech.

The same degree of latitude as would be allowed in discussing the budget is not really permitted at this time. While the hon member has been relevant for a good deal of his speech, some of it is getting a little bit on the border line. • 166 .,..

March 26th., 1971 Tape no. 38 Page 2 Mil~ CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I will observe your caution. I was just looking at the new Minister of Finance •. Mr. Chairman, this is /eal·ly a serious subject, you know. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is the whiskers they are laughing at. MR. CROSBIE: That is good. I want-that noted gentlemen of the press. Note the whiskers, gentlemen of the press. Do not note the $56 million or the $103 million deficit. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. member have anything further to say on the topic before the committee. MR. CROSBIE: I am just getting started. I have not said a thing yet.

That is a $103 million deficit. It is right on this item, consolidated fund services. _MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. MR. CROSBIE: Ah! now we have done it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, the next time there is a laugh from " the 9allery, I am going to ask to have the galleries cleared. Everyone o'1t! Visitors are allowed in the galleries to listen and not to talk, laugh or wave or make themselves heard or seen. "Seen but not heard: _MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am on a point of order. MR. CROSBIE: The Chairman of this Committee •• MR.

SMALLWOOD: One point of order at a time. _MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! MR. CROSBIE: It is for the Chairman of the Committee, Mr. Chairman MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! please be seated. Will the boo. member for St. John's West MR. SMALLWOOD: I say again, Mr. Chairman, th•-~ next time there is any laughing from the gallery, I will cry, "strangers" which means that Youi: Honour will have no choice but to clear the gallei:ies. The bullying will come fi:om the floor; not from the gallei:ies, 167

March 26th., 1971 Tape no. 38 Page 3 MR. CROSBIE: It will come from us. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, _I will not allow it. MR. CROSBIE: It will not come from us. MR. SMALLWOOD: I will not allow it. I will not allow the hon. gentleman to get away with bullying. MR. CROSBIE: Bully Boy! Bully Boy! MR. SMALLWOOD: The Bully Boy will not do any bullying here. Mr. Chairman, here is the point of order. The Budget has not yet been brought down. MR. CROSBIE: Why not? MR.. SMALLWOOD: The estimates have not yet been brought down. They will be brought down. They must be,by law.

When they are brought down, coaplete and thorough-going explanations of the finances of the Province are iiven, because they must be. That is the law. Questions,innuml:lrable may be asked, and they must be answered. We are not yet ready with the budget. We are not yet ready with the estimates. The year ends in a day or two, a few days from now. We ask this House, first this committee, then the Bouse1 to grant us Interim Supply, something on account, an advance. That is all. We are not required to give the estimates today. We are not required to give the budget today. We are not doing it.

We are n~t required to do it. A debate on the budget cannot take place today, because the budget is not before the committee, nor are the estimates before the committee. There is merely a request for Interim Supply. Now this could be put in one lump sua. We could come to the Bouse, the committee, and we could ask for $99,780,000 and that and no more, just that amount, an interim amount, an advance on account. We could do that. Instead of which, we have divided it into twenty separate headings, twenty aeparate items.

Under the heading of Consolidated Fund Services, $45,000, I submit to Your· Honour that it is entirely out of order for a general debate on the public debt to take place now,on the accounts of the year just about to end, even the full accounts of the year just about to begin. The item before Your Honour is $45,000. 168

March 26 1971 Tape 3f page 1. the rule of relevancy requires that that be debated. The debate on things in general took place before the House went into Committee. B·ut that debate ended. Now it is starting all over again, I say improperly and unconstitutionally. I ask Your Honour so to rule. MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, I want to speak on a point of orde~ It is the most important one that four Honour will have to decide in his career in this House because what it amounts to is this: That the Hon. the Premier is submitting to you,as Chail'111an of this C0111111itte~,that a Government can ask for $100 million in interim supply,from the House of Assembly or a Parliament,and give no explanation as to what that money is to be used for. Now Mr. Speaker, I refer first to Beauchesne page 198,"it is one of the old standing principles of our constitution that the House of Commons should control the finances of the country.

That is the right privilege and duties of the Bouae.lt has been achieved by means of struggle lasting through centuries, beginning from the fourteenth century down to the seventeenth centu~ .when it " wu fully confil'111ed. and since then it has never been diaputed,except in twentieth century Newfoundland. That is on page 198. Same page,the bottom of the page discusses going into Supply or Ways and Means_" ••• when such motion is proposed ittshall be permissible to discuss any public matter within the powers of the Federal Parliament or tb ask for the redress of any grievance." Page 201.

"The whole management of a department 11ay be discussed in a geneEal way when the committee of Supply is considering the first resolution of the estimates of that department,"which reads as follows: "General Administration." Here Mr. Chairman we are discussing a vote for a whole department , not just a heading, a:_'!lOte~.for.:-a:vhole-·department, when that amount is before this Co111111ittee we can discuss I submit, any item of expenditure in the Estimates of that Department of the Government. Page 202: "Supplemtary Estimates." Now Supplementary Estimates are estimates the money.

The Government pent more money this year than was authorized;the~ had to come in and get approval. Interim Supply, the Government asked for money for next year before 169

, . March 26 1971 Tape 3~ page 2. it gives the House any estimates at all. to look at." Supplement~ry Estimat~s. when treated as customary and as a matter of course, instead of being restricted to occasion of unforeseen contingencies,do more to destroy effectual parliamentaTy control than any other indirect methods that could be devised." I could go on and on Mr. Chairman, we are notlr in Committee of Supply when the people of the Province through their elected representatives,this House have a chance to see • what their money is to be spent on and to discuss every department of Government. Mr.

Chairman, the Government could have had a budget speech by now. We are not responsible for the fact that the Government was not ready with their budget speech nor their estimates when they should have been. This is what we are discussing Mr. Chairman, the estimates for next year. It is the custom - MR.CHAIRMAN: know what - MR.CROSBIE: MR. CHAIRMAN : Order please, I think I have heard enough to let the Committee Mr.

Chairman - I think I have heard enough to make up my mind - the point to which the hon. member referred,discussion of grievances and so on, it is quite correct that on an application for money members have that right,but that has to be done in the House not in Committee and it has to be done on the occasion of the Resolution.

Ordinarily, Supplementary Supply goes through - an Interim Supply goes through with very little debate because hon. members know that the occasion for a full debate on the financial affairs of the government is on the occasion of the Budget Speech which must,as a matter of fact,come before the Rouse at least once in every year. The usual routine is that hon. members reserve their criticism of government policy to the budget debate. Otherwise they would only simply be repeating themselves in the same session.

In the present case,as I see it,the first heading here,Consolidated Fund Services, is a heading which is rather wider than the other,which are more definitive. What the Chairman had intended to do was to allow members to address themselves 170

March 26 1971 Tape 3f page 3. to Consolidated Funds Services in slightly wider manner than would be on the other item. Hon. members should be strictly relevant to the item there, and I think the hon. member for St. John's West could continue and bear in mind that he must be relevant to the item,and at the moment we .. are discussing Consolidated Fund Services. KR..MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, on that point of order, when all these resolutions were brought in,we had the chance to debate either on the Resolution oi on the Bill itself.

We get one oppottunity to debate fully these gifts and I will "';'-- not use the word gifts - they are gifts in a sense - to discuss the thing thoroughly we can do it either on the Resolution stage or on the Bill stage and we eletted to debate it. I think we should be given full opportunity to debate it on - KR..SMALLWOOD: It was introduced here yesterday and that debate concluded. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, if I can continue,! do not think the Prem:ier has the floor. Yesterday we debated the principle as to whether there should be ,.,. Interim Supply at all and we reserved our remarks for today.

MR.CHAIRMAN: Are we still on my ruling or are we on - I have given the hon. member for St. John's West an indication that he should proceed under Item 1 Consolidated Fund Services. KR..CROSBIE: That is what I propose to do Mr. Chairman. Now Consolidated Fund Services is the amount the Government has to pay out in interest and principal repayments on the money that is borrowed. It has borrowed $103 million as far as we know, may be more, no, $125 million, this year. It may be more. It has borrowed $97.5 million in debentures, does that mean M•.

Chairman if we take an average interest rate of eight &o nine per cent during this past year that the people of Newfoundland have an additional burden placed ort .. them in the year coming up of $9 million in interest payments. IIR.SMALLWOOD: Point of order Mr. Chairman. We are debating $45,000 which is not the interest or the principal or the sinking fund on $100 million or ten 171

March 26 1971 Tape 3f page 4. hundred million. It is an amount of $45,000 now,strict relevancy requires that we debate the $45.000. The amount of interest to be paid and the amount of the sinking fund to be paid on the public debt must be debated when the estimates are brought before the House and the estimates will not be for $4S,000 but almost as many million. That will surely be the time to debate the public debt and the servicing of the public debt. This is merely an amount of $45 1 000. Merely $45,000.

Under that heading $45 1 000 and clearly this is not the interest on the public debt clearly this is not the sinking fund clearly that will be debated when the figures are brought down here in the estimates and the budget. That is the time to debate it. You cannot debate what is not here. What is here is $45,000 not $45 million. Not the interest on~~ the public deb~,not the servicing of the public debt, not the thinking fund, not the retirement of the debt merely $45,000.

But the full debate must take place on the public debt 0 on the interest on the public debt on the retirement of the public debt on the ~inking fund of the public debt, all that must be debated when the estimates are brought down and the budget is brought down. Theae are not yet _~ught down,how then can they be debated? . ' • 172

March 26th~. 1971 Tap• no. 40 Page 1 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman 1 on a point of order. We are debating an item Wlder Consolidated FWld Services, We will be· debating~ shortly, legialative service , !'inance~ · and 110 on. The hon, the Premier says that all we can debate is the $45,000 or that when we come to Finance, all we can debate is $2.682,000. Tc state 1t 1 is to see how ridiculous and juvenile the argwnent is. This is a block vote for a department of Government. When we come to Finance, we can discuss under that block vote, in my submission Mr. Chairman, anything that the Department of Finance does.

It will use that money in the next two or three months, •• MR.. SMALLWOOD: It is not true, That is not true, MR. CROSBIE: It will use that money during the next two or three months of this year for all of its various activities. It will use it to pay the aalaries of its employees. It will use it to pay the cost of bond ~ssues, lawyers for bond issues, all kinds of purposes. It will use it to pay teachers, to pay the salaries of the Civil Servants to operate the Government. We have the right, therefore, Mr. Chairman. to debate every aspect of the Government service under those departmental headings ••• MR.

SMALLWOOD:. We can have the budget debate now, Mr. Chairman? MR. CROSBIE: Yea, MR. SMALLWOOD: We can now have the budget debate? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, we can. We can. MR.. SMALLWOOD: We can have the budget debate now today, MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, will you keep the hon. the Premier in order or do I just outshout himf Now,continuing with my answer to this so-called point of ordert The budget, the Govemments says, is not brought down. That is not the fault of the members of this Bouse. That is a fault ·of the Government.

The Government have not presanted us with the estimates of expenditure for next year,as i~ done in the Canadian Parliament before Interim Supply is asked for. that is not the fault of the member of this House. We cannot be expected, Mr. Chairman, to vote this •• 173 I 1.

March 26th., 1971 Tape no. 40 Page 2 · . ... . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please] The hon. member now,vho is presenting bia point of order 1is re~lly continuing his speech. I think the ruling of the. Chair has been quite clear on this. That is that the general policy of the Government is not, at the moment, a subject for debate. The subject for debate, at the moment, is whether or not this Bouse will vote to the Government or to the Queen, I suppose, will vote the •1111 $45,000 under the heading Consolidated Fund Services.

All debate lllWlt be limited to Consolidated Fund Services and not to general policies of the Government. As I have explained, that is dealt with at_ another time. A:t the present time, we are dealing with Item

(1) Consolidated Fund Services, $45,000 and memb_ers should confine their debate to that. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, possibly one way to solve this matter is to call back the Speaker. AJJ I recall it yesterday, before debate took place on this Resolution, members of the Bouse were told that they need not have a full-scale debate on the Reaolution; that plenty ef latitude would be giftn when the

schedule would be debated." Now we are told the opposite. So, I would sugrest that.if this is going to continue, then this is nothing short of closure. Let us bring back the Speaker and have him give a r,uling. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. member for St. John's West please continue unde~ Heading (1). MR. CBOSBIE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am speaking of Beading

(1) Consolidated Fund Services. the amount is $45,000. The total amount voted last year in current acount was $110 525,000. Thia, Mr. Chairman, is a vote for the year 1971-1972 for which we have been given no explanation, not oue word of explanation u to vhat the $4.50 000 - oh! the hon. minister ia quite clever, but when the hon. the Chairman called the ftem, the bon.·the minister waited for it to be passed without offering a word of explanation. The hon. gentleman got up to prevent a vote on that item immediately. So far, Mr. Chairman, no information.

Karch ~6th., 1971 Tape no. 40 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie. Now this deal• with borrowing. I have addressed 1111aelf, Mr. Chairman, to the question of borrowing, because under the Consolidated Fund Services, we expend monies to be paid for interest. Last year that...came to a total of about $52 million, Mr. Chairman. It was $37 million with respect to interest and $13 million with respect to sinking fund payments or $50 million. MR. CALLAHAN: MR.. CROSBIE: MR.. CALLAHAN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Another point of order. Mr. Chairman, this is precisely the same situad.on the committee got into a year ago.

Your Honour's ruling had been the same as the ruling a year ago. We are not debating the budget. We are not debating borrowing. We are supposed to be debating the amount that is ahown,and the explanation is readily available. I submit to you, Your Honour, that in keeping llth your ruling of a year ago, your ruling of a few minutes ago,that we should not continue on this course, lf I am gi-ven the opportunity to do so, the explanation,which I assured the House yesterday could be given - as Mr Speaker indicated then there should not be wide-ranging debate but that thera would be opportunity to get information.

That information is, in fact, available. MR.. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, is the information available lrom the hon. minister on just what the Govemment borrowed this year? Why the Government have a deficit of $103 million, when $50 million or $60 million ••• ? Because, Mr. Chairman, the Govemment _want this House to vote $100 million ' for next year, without a word of explanation of the f:inancial mess they got ua into in the present year. MR.. CALLAHAN: That is not the question. MR. CROSBIE: And they want to harass with points of order to p~eventahts information from coming out. MR.

CALLAHAN: That is not the question. 175

March 26th., 1971 Tape no. 40 Page 4 Mlt. CHAIRMAN: Order please: I think the hon. minister offers an explanation for the heading. I do not know whether the hon. member for St. John's West would like to give him a chance to ••• ? _MR. ROWE (F.W.): What right has this hon. gentleman got to say that he is asked and this committee are asked and the House is asked to vote $100 million, (I take it by the $100 million, he means $991 780,000) without a word of explanation. These are his words, "without a word of explanation." Bow does the hon. gentleman know that? We are on Beading (1).

Under Heading(VI), this c0111Dittee are asked to vote for the largest, single amount there, $27 million, approximately. It is on education. I • speaking on a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman. I want this point of privilege ruled on by Your Honour. I do not want any interruptions from the hon. Leader of the Opposition or anyone else on this point of privilege. MR: CHAIRMAN: Order please: •I . really do not think there is a point of privilege there. Would the hon. the meaber continue with his explanation? MR. ROWE (F.W.): Mr. Chairman, I submit, in all respect, Your Honour has not heard the point I wish to make.

The hon. member for St • .John's West has accused this aide of the Bouse., the Government, specifically, of not offering a word of explanation. These were his words. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please: Order please! MR. ROWE (F.W.): Under Item (VI), I have not had a chance to utter a word of explanation. MR. CHAIRMAN: ~rder please! MR. -MURPHY: Well utter again. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! It is not out of order for an hon. member to say that he has not got sufficient information or the information i  not behg offered. Please carry on •• _MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Chairman, the amount $451 000, under Item (1), the amount bu nothing whatever to do with items that have been referred to. It refers, the item in the

schedule refers to debt manag~t expenses. It is broken down 176

March 26th., 1971 40 Page 5 Hr. Callahan u to legal fees, bank charges, comad.s~ions on Treasury Bills and Crown corporations for a total of $45,000. This, of course and this is the point, Mr. Chairman, it is. quite aside from statutory payments already . -~ covered by legislation and from.amounts that will be included in the voted estimates. MR. CROSBIE : Mr. Chairman, we have great elucidation with that explanation. The vote is $45,000 for debt management expenses. Mr. Chairman, I am directing myself to the managing of the debt and the expenses of it. These expenses are many and tragic.

This is debt management expenses. In other words, this is 1110ney •• MR. CALLAHAN: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: Another point of order. Do not let any information out if you can help it. MR. CALLAHAN: These expenses, Mr. Chairman, these items as the hon. gentleman said are related. Yes, but related to the extent of $45,000 ae ahawn in the

schedule and with no reference to anything else, -particularly the iteu I have mentioned: Statutory payments, and amotm.ts in the voted eatimates. I ask Your Honour so to rule. MR. CROSBIE~ Mr. Chairman, this is ·an item being voted for debt management. Now whether it _is.$1.00 or $45,000 or $45 tp:l.llion,when the Government asks the House of Assembly to approve a vote for debt management, •mbers ·of the House can discuss debt management. They can ask what the coats are going to be for the whole year, etc. There are a number of questions and that is what I am going to come to. Now, Hr.

Chairman, the hon. the minister is asking for $45,000 for debt management for the first several months of this year. I, therefore, aak the Minister of Finance to answer a few questions for me on what it costs hill in debt management last year, the year that:B going to end Wednesday. The Govemment Dorrowed 1~'7

March 26th. 1971 Tape 41 PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE: a __ record of $125 million. What were the total expenses of a minister in his department for the Financial Year that ends next Wednesday on Debt Management? Obviously. Mr. Chairman. with bond issues of $15 million, $15 million, $22.5 million, $20 million in Euro dollars bonds, $25 million on the .American market, Canada Pension Plan $15.9 million, Regional Economic Expansion and the rest of it, there have to be _c&siderable eXl)enses in Debt Management. Underwriters had to be paid. the cost of prospectus had to be paid. There are prospectus here in others.

Lawyers had to be paid. We notice there are lawyers here giving opinions in this prospective. When a Province borrows $97.5 million from a bond market. there is considerable expenses in debt management. so. we would like to know, Mr. Chairman, what did it cost the Government this year for Debt Management a year of a record sum. a smn in excess of what this whole country owed in 1949? lJhat did it cost in Debt Management in expenses this year? What does the Government prophesy it is going to cost the Government next year for Debt Management expenses?

How many bond issues does the minister figure we are going to have next year? How much does the minister figure we are going to have to borrow next year? Is it $200 million? Or just · $150 million? If so, what will the Debt Management eXl)enses be? These are questions that arise tmder the Debt Management: MR. SMALL'WOOD: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman • . IIR.. CROSBIE: Another point of order. ah! MR. SMALLWOOD: If this is continued will it be permitted again in thi.!! present session when the budget is brought down? MR. CROSBIE: No. not if you can help it. MR.

SMALLWOOD: If we have a debate now on the Public Debt, if we have a debate now in this present session, on the Public Debt, the interest on the Debt, the sinking fund on the debt, and all the items of the Public Service, if ve have a debate now,ia .it permissible to have a debate later in this ame aession, in the one seasion? May the same thing be debated twic~ in 178

March 26th. 1971 Tape 41 PK - 2 Mil. SMALLWOOD: the aame session? Is not this merely a request of the Government pending the bringing down of ihe estimates and the budget when there will be a than,ough-going debate that may last two or three weeks? • Pending that, until that does come, and . all the information will be brought before the House .,and the House knows it. It is provided in Law that the budget~ be brought down1 fhat the estimates must be brought down for a whole year, that is necessary. That is unavoidable, that has got to be done.

And, when it is done, the debate is far-ranging and may go on for several weeks. Now, ve know that to be so, and has it not been ruled a thousand times by Mr. Speaker and Mr. Chairman,in this House and other houses, has it not been ruled a thousand times that when the House knows that a matter is to come before the House later in the same session, ~hen it knows that, it may not debate the matter until then. Now there is a slight difference only here, we are asking for $100 million on account, I hopli that your Honour will agree.

I hope that your Honour will see that there cannot be a debate twice on the same matter. My view is that the debate can last a day, or a week, or a month. But it is one deb.ate, 1t starts and it ends. And in between the start and the end there may be any pe~iod of time, but that is one debate. When that debate takes place there cannot be another debate in the same session. Now there is no rule in the British Parliamentary S~stem more clear than that.

You cannot debate the same thing twice, Now are we going·to debate the Public Debts 1 now in this present debate? 1f so, will Your Honour rule it out of order, when the budget is brought down? I do not want Your Honour to rule it out of order, I want it to be debated with the moat ample thoroughness.when the budget is brought down, and the estimates. But, this is not the budget, this is not the estimates, this is merely a request by the Government for enought money to keep goin~ with ,to pay the public expenses until the House has an·,_ opportunity to 179 - ~ .

March 26th,. 1971 Tape '1 PK - 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: consider the estimates, consider the budget and vote the money for the year. It is just something on account. Now something on account I hope does not allow a full-dressed debate, and this is what we are having. We are having a full-dressed debate, no different from what the ordinary debate is on estimates and on the budget. This is a combined Budget Speech Debate and Estimates Debate. It is a c0111bination of the two and I hold, Mr. Chairman, that it is entirely out of order. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, on that point of order, I think it has got to be brought forceably to the attention of the House that this is not a usual Supply Bill. The House has been asked to vote approximately one­ quarter of the known or anticipated expenditure of last year. The remarks of the hon. the Premier, I would ~ubmit, have no validity whatsoever on its point of order.

What really he wants us to do is, they have got the authority now to borrow in secret Cabinet aession,now they want to spent it in complete secret Cabinet session and cut out the traditional rights of ~he Legislatuze of this Province to pass on $100 million. A $100 million, ~es, it does not surprise me that, the Premier of this Province can get up in this House and in effect ask us to give him $100 million for the next two or three months, so that he and his Government can play around with it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. SMALLWOOD: I have to correct a statement of fact, Mr.

Chairman, the amount~ that we are asking for in Interim Supply now is almost precisely the same proportion as we asked for a year ago. Almost exactly the same proportion. Almost exactly the same proportion. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on this point of order. This is quite a serious point. The hon. the Premier ~as put forward the position to Your Honour the Chairman, one never put forward before by a parlimeutarian that I ever hurd of,that; if a Government brings in an Interim Supply Bill or the Government brings in a supplementary Supply Bill that the members of the 180

March 26th. 1971 Tape 41 MR. CROSBIE: House are suppose to sit mum. They are not to speak on those Bills when the Government asks for Supplementary Supply. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not mention Supplementary Supply. I was not talking about Supplementary Supply. I did not mention it. MR. CROSBIE: Let us see, twenty-two years ago - MR. S~ALLWOOD: I am talking of Interim Supply. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: On this point of order. PK - 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not think it necessary ~or the Chair to hear any .more on this point of order. .. .., MR. CROSBIE: The rule, Mr.

Chairman, is that we cn:not speak on this because the estimates are to come up, if there is not an election in between is that what - what is the ruling? MR. CHAIRMAN: If hon. members would listen to what the Chair has said, and bide by the ruling of the Chair, we would make much more progress. Now the Chair has ruled that the item mider discussion - Item One Consolidated Funds Services $45,000. And one would think that. that would mean that debate would revolve around whether or not the $45,000 is justified and whether or not it should be granted. Nov let us proceed. MR.

CROSBIE: I was addressing myself right to that question, ~r. Chairman, when I was interrupted by any one of these points of order. Debt Management $41,0PP we have been asked to vote for next year, without any explanation of what debts are going to be incurred next year. We know, as the minister eays,it is to pay for legal fees, and it is to pay for bank charges, and it is to pay investment counselors and so on. If this~oney is required, Mr.

Chairman, for the Government to have during the next month or two months, because it has not got a budget ready and it has not got its estimates ready, and has nothing but contempt for the House. 1f that is what it is required for to carry the Government - 181

~ ..,:.:~·: .· •.•, March 26th. 1971 Tape 41 PK - 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Just one moment now. the hon. gentleman knows those last remarks are completely out of order, and they are not at all related. MR. SMALLWOOD: To a point of order. Mr. Chairman, is any hon. member of this Bouse allowed to stand up while Your Honour is speaking. Is that lawful? MR. CROSBIE: We-know it is not to be blamed on him. Now, Mr. Chairman, as I was saying. we are not told what this $45,000 is for. For what bond issue - the Government needs money to operate the Government services for the next two months, it tells the Bouse.

It wants the House to vote $100 million. It now asks for $45,000 tmder Consolidated Ftmds Services. And we ask, and I ask, Mr. Chairman. what ia the necessity for that expenditure during the next two months? Is there to be a bond issue in the next two months, in additton to the $99.7 million that they just borrowed? In addition to the bond issue, we just had af,'.$25 million on March 15th. Is there to be another bond issue? lre:·t.lle.::Govemment planning another one in April or May, so that, they have to have $45,000 to pay out to lawyers?

Are the Government planning ·­ Bow much are the Government planninF, to borrow next year? Bow much~is the minister going to need for Debt Management altogether next year? MR. CALLAHAN: You will find out in two or three w:eeu.,-_ MR. CROSBIE: Oh, now we are told. MR. MURPHY: Promises, promises. MR. CROSBIE: Now the Government wants the money now, but the minister says we will find out in two or three weeks. We do not want to find out in two or three weeks; Mr. Chairman. We want to find out when we vote the money. MR. CALLAHAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman will know. MR.

CROSBIE: We have no assurance whatsoever, Mr. Chait111an0 there are F.Ding to be any estimates come in this House. When this $100 million is voted the Government can call an election, there is no reason why it cannot, 182

March 26th. 1971 Tape 41 PK - 6 HR •. CROSBIF.: without bringing down any budget or any estimate. So we de'liumd our rights, as members of this hon. House, to know why.the Government requires this $100 million? What it is going to be spent on? Why did the minister ask for $45,000? Why does he not just ask for $20,000? Does he need the $45,000 at all? Why did the minister borrow last year? Be asked the House now for money, so we will look at his past record, Mr. Chairman, or the Minister of Finance's past record.

The Minister of Finance told this House,six or eight short months ago.that, he was going.to have to borrow $29.5 million, and he ended up borrowing, April 23rd., May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, January, February. March, I think, that is eleven months ago. HR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Eleven months ago, told this House he was going to borrow $29.5 million. Be has borrowed $97.5 million in debentmes. Now we want the minister to explain to·.:.1111 why he requests $45,000 for Debt ~.anagement?

What did the Debt Manager of this Government borrow this year} Why did he have to borrow this $97.5 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is beginning, I think, to repeat himself? MR. CROSBIE: Do you think so, Mr. Chairman? Well these are smne of the questions, Mr. Chairman, that we want to have answered before we vote the sum of $45,000 or any amount. And one other 183

March 21, 1971, Tape 42, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: One other question Mr. Chairman. This Government between . . . April 1st. of last year and March 31st. of 1973, has to repay $104 million in monies that it borrowed the previous year and had no sinking ftmds for. AN HOR. MEMBER: What has that got to do with it? Mil. CROSBIE: I will just guess what that has to do with it. Between April let. '71, April lat. next week, and two years from that date, the Government i• going to have to repay $100 million that it has no sinking ftmd for. AN J!ON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please: order please! MR.

CROSBIE: What it has to do with it is this,Mr. Chairman. It is debt management. This is going to involve the Government Mr. Chairman in a considerable amount of debt management expenses. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: Pardon? MR.. CHAIRMAN: It is $4S,000. as I read it. MR.. CROSBIE: Yes, $45,000. for the first two months. How is this, how is this. MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): That is all we are asking for today $4S,000. MR. CROSBIE: Plus another nineteen. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is all, plus nothing. $45,000. is this item that is now before the Chair. MR. CIOSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, when an item of expenditure comes before the House, the members of the House have the right to ask the Government to account fot how they spent the money they were voted last year. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is done, that is done in the Budget Speech. MR. CROSBIE: We are asking the Government to accolDlt to see whether or not they should be voted the money this year. The Government is now asking for $45,000. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! you know, it is all very well to - but the particular item here now is Consolidated Fundiaervices $4~1 000. Shall the itn carry? MR. CROSBIE: Ho Mr. Chairml!IJl, no.

We have had no anawrs yet. 184

March 26, 1971, Tape 42, Page 2 - apb MR. SMALLWOOD: It is going to be carried. MR. CROSBIE: There has been no vote, and no one else has spoken yet. MR. MURPHY: No one ha1 spoken on that yet. MR. CROSBIE: I have asked the minister certain questions, and naturally we are expecting an answer to them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the item carry? MR. MURPHY: Carry Mr. Chairman, carry? MR. CROSBIE: Look at it. MR. MURPHY: It depends on what kind of a vote it is. MR. CROSBIE: Do away with the House. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is it not a majority vote. Does the majority carry? AN HON. MEMBER: Abolish the House. MR.

MURPHY: We had two against one yesterday and our vote did not carry. There is only one who said "aye," and two said "nay." MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! order please! The vote is not taken until the ~ual "ayes" and "nays" are heard. MR. MURPHY: It is not Mr. Chairman, you are the boss. I just have a few words on this,Mr. Chairman, I did not get a chance to speak on the original debate, but ••••••• RON. E.M.ROBERTS: (Minister of Health): hard. The hon. gentleman did not try very MR. MURPHY: Did not try? MR.. SMALLWOOD: That is fair, that:is fair. MR.. T .RIClCEY: To a point of order Mr. Chairman, point -~f_ ~!_der.

I have already made this 1>0int of order before, and apparently it has fallen on deaf ears. Ron. gentlemen on this side, were told by the speaker yesterday ••••••• MR.. CHAIRMAN: Order please! the hon. gentleman will please try .to let us continue with the debate. MR.. HICKEY: Oh well, a good try any~way. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not, it is chainnan MR.. HICKEY: FaT110us last words. 185

March 26, 1971, Tape 42, Page 3 - apb MR. MURPHY: This item for $45,000. the hon. deputy Minister of Finance says i• for interest and debt management, towards that payment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Debt management and expenses. MR. MURPHY: Debt management and expenses yes. The debt management intereat . and debt management for last year was $32 million. This $45.thousand is just a mall part of the huge vote that we are asked to pass here today. It was agreed that we would take it item by item.

We have not a complete breakdown, it just says that it is some part of debt management or something like this, but I quite frankly feel that it is just an amount thrown in to make up a total amount of $99 million 7 •••••• The hon. minister has not given us yet the answer to the question that has been asked. AR RON. MEMBER: I have gi!en it once, I will give it again. MR. MURPHY: If that is what the hon. minister is going to give again, what he gave just now, it is not too much information as far as we are concerned. MR. CALLAHAN: again. If the hon. gentleman wishes, if he pend.ts I will give it MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman, I am.quite concerned with this, and this is only a part of the total vote. When I hear a statement made by the hon. Premier that this is just slightly or somewhat over last year~s Interim Supply which was $61 million. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not say that. AN ROH. MEMBER: Oh boy! oh boy! MR. MURPHY: Would you like a recording of the remarks the hon. the Premier made. MR. SMALLWOOD: I said by the same proportion, I ." did not say the same amount MR. MURPHY: You said that in the Bouse. MR. SMALLWOD: I said it was almost exactly the same proportion, do you know what proportion means? MR.

HICKEY: Point of Order. I was just asked to sit down, I could not make a point of order. Now, your Honour is allowing two. What do we have here? The rules are for both sides or they are for no one. 186

March 26, 1971, Tape 42, Page 4 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. member please go on. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, in a few abort weeka,we are told, the estimates will come down and the budget will come down. I contend that it should have been down °long ago, where we could discuss this thing fully. Thia has been a practice of this Government the past number of years. They say that it bu gone through another year Mr.Speaker. That has nothing whatever to do with it.

We feel that in an amount like this, ,and we are just discussing one heading now, $45,000., and we will get into others, I feel that on a matter of principle the Government should.have the courtesy to bring forward to this Bouse, who after all has the exclusive right to grant _ permission for Interim Supply or any other supply. We do not at this moment know bow many millions over and above this Government has spent since the last budget was brought down in this House. We have not the faintest idea. It is just ab~olute contempt, not for our money, not on this side, it is not our money Mr.

Chairman, it ia the people's money. When they ask us for $45,000. we want to be da117well sure that this $45,000, although a small part,as I said,of the $99 million, is not just something that ia thrown into a bucket, and e-:,ery depart1nent is balanced out on various amounts of money. As far as I am concerned, this Interim Supply I am against granting. This is a terrific amount of money, and I think my hon. co-leader, the Conservatives just next to me there,as mentioned by the hon. the Premier, has stated very fully a lot of things. We talk about loans.

Do we want to get into loan.a, cheap money, every­ thing else? We are paying 8.9 percent for our last loan of $25 million, and the prime rate at a bank is 5.5 percent. Thia is all a part of this consolidated fund services. They talk about tight mney or loose money, no wonder we can borrow all the 110ney we are borrowing. I will just say Mr. Chairman, that I will vote against this item here as I will against every other as it comes up, until this Government is reasonable an8 courteous enough to treat this House with the respect that it deserves. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, thill vote relates to the debt management of the 187

• Karch 26, 1971, Tape 42, Page 5 - apb debt of thi  Province. I would ubmit that this is an issue. One of the reaons why we are making any expenditure, whatever expenditure we are making OD debt management, i  directly relative to the amount of the debt which thi Province ha incurred. The mode of incurring debt in this Province is to my mind completely and absolutely contrary to the basic principles of British Parliamentary democracy and to the pr~ciplea.,as a aatter of fact, of an7 other democratic form. In 1966, we saw

an Act go through this legislature,

an Act to amend the Revenue and Audit Act, wherein unlimited borrowing power was given to the Cabinet. Mil. CHAIRMAN: Order please! I think the Chair baa said often enough, that vhat we are talking about here •••••• MR. SMALLl«>OD: Sit down while the Speaker is speaking. MR. CHAIRMAN: What we are talking about here now is consolidated funds services, $45,000., and it really boils down to whether that amount ahould be allotted or any other amount. I do not - see what this baa to do with the Revenue and Audit Act. ~MARSHALL: Mr.

Chainnan, I relate then to the debt of this Province and DOt to the Bavenue and Audit Act. The fact that ve have the amount of the debt that ve have, is because of the carelessness of this particular Government. MR. CALLAHAN: Point of Order Mr. Chairman, may I refer to 1our Honour's ruling on this very point one year ago. These are Your Honour's words on page three, of tape 100 on March 10th.

"Thia is a committee of the Rouse. appointed to do a particular job, and the committee is to examine this particular Bill ad the motion before the committee." The it goes on and says, "members must understand that the reaarks must be limited to that point and to that point only. '1'he Rouse i  the place for members to speak generally, and everybody knows the occasions which they are." Mr. Chairman, we are back into it again, and I ask tour Honour to confirm the ruling made one year ago, ude again here this afternoon at least a half dozen times, but still being ignored by the other aide. 188 ' . T

... March 26, 19711 Tape 42, Page 6 - apb MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chainum, on that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Please carry on with your address. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you Mr. Chainian. The amount of thi money, $4S thousand la eurprlsed at the attitude of the Govenunent. They say," just wte ·for it and and do not inquire into it." After pressing today, we were told that it is for debt management. The debt of this ~ce over the put year has accelerated some $68 million fmm ' that which 189

Maren Lbtn, 1~,1 ·rape 43 Jrt - J. MR. MARSHALL: va originally invisaged and it has accelerated, Mr. Chairman, as a result of ateps taken within the Cabinet itself. This money was borrowed without t~e Legislature of this Province being informed ~on the reasons for which it was borrowed and,surely to lieavens,since forty-five thousands of dollars will obviously relate to the $68. million dollar additional,as well as the ret of the debt, we are entitled to know why the other debt was incurred, what it was used for etc.

I think this is one of the basic problems that has occurred here and one of the reasons why we take the stand we do. We are being asked to vote for something that was done ahead, has to go in the future without knowing what went on in the past. It is a ridiculous situation, Mr. Chairman. The debt of this Province now has accelerated to $1, billion dollars. MR. SMALLWOOD: It has not. MR. MARSHALL: It has been said it is gone to $1. billion. MR. SMALLWOOD: It has not. MR. MARSHALL: It is over $2,000. for every child in the Province •••• MR. SMALLWOOD: That is not true. MR.

MARSHALL: Over $2,000. for every child that is born at the Grace Hospital and St. Clares and all around the place everywhere. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not so. MR. MARSHALL: Perhaps the hon. the Premier would like to give a certificate of debt for the newborns so that it will be drawn to their attention that they owe over $2,000. and it will probably be $10,000. by the time they reach twenty-one. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. member please concede this. MR. MARSHALL: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the situa~ion with respect to this,we are being asked in this Interim Supply Bill to vote $45,000. and I do not think with respect to this Consolidated Fund Services or any other item that we ought to be asked to vote upon it without there being a breakdown. MR. CALLAHAN: There is a breakdown, I have given a breakdown. MR.. MARSHALL: You have given,a general breakdown has been given, Mr. Chairman. We had be~n told after - 190

Maren Lotn, 1~,~ Tape 43 J.l'I - 2 MR. CALLAHAN: A breakdown for $45,000. has been given. MR. MARSHALL: The breakdown has been told to be debt management and what else? MR. <".ALI.ARAN: Would the hon. gentleman like me to repeat it'l MR. MARSHALL: I would very much like the Minister to repeat it, yes. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Chairman, legal fees $28,500., bank charges $4,500., commissions on treasury bills $1,500., Crown Corporations $10,500., total $45,000. which does not have any relation or is not obviously inclusive of etatutory payme~ts, already covered by Legislation nor those included in the voted estimates which will in due course be brought to the House. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister 1 and I would hope that he would table similar details with respect to the other heads of expenditure prior to them being debated 1 so that this side can have an opportunity to examine them. MR.

CALLAHAN: If that side will give me time I will be glad to rise and do it. MR. MARSHALL: Well, would the hon. Minister care then to adjourn the debate, to give us the information so that we can debate! MR. CALLAHAN: No, no, lio need. MR. CHAIRMA.~: Would the hon. member please proceed with this particular debate? ~ MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, we are being asked to vote a St.DD of $45,000. for Consolidated Fund Services. We are being asked to do this and it relates to the debt of this Province, I say again.

The hon. the Premier and this Government cannot come before this Bouse, it is against all principles of Parliamentary Government. Now I do not care whether you get into the technicalities of Interim Supply, Supplementary Supply or estimates. Aa far as the people of this Province are concerned $100. million dollars is being asked by this House and we are asked, as has been said before, to sign a blank cheque. Well that is just a little bit too much. I think, Mr. Chairman, the proper reason for Interim Supply is to give the Government enough money to operate between now and when the estimates are requested.

Okay well, we are being asked - 191

March 26th, 1971 Tape 43 JM - 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: Not when the estimates are requested, when the estimates are passed. MR. MARSHALL: When the estimates are passed. MR. SMALL'WOOD: Yes. MR. MARSHALL: So I take it then,.Mr. Chairman, MIL SMALLWOOD: Who knows how long that would take? MR. MARSHALL: So I take it then, Mr. Chairman, that the intention is that this relates to approximately one-quarter of a year and the Government does not then expect the estimates to be passed until March, April, May, June, the end of June or July. MR. CALLAHAN: That depends on the hon. gentleman and his colleagues. MR.

MARSHALL: It may well be that,if we do not get the information that has been requested. I cannot conceive, Mr. Chairman, how .this House, how the Government of this Province can have so deteriorated,as far as I can see, absolutely deteriorated.to come and ask $100'. million dollars of this Legislature without giving complete and absolute details and complete and absolute details,giving enough infoI"llation to the other side so that they can take it, compare with last year's estimates, with the estimates the year before and so on. In my mind it is a piece of unbridled, unlitigated • arrogance. Ill..

CALLAHAN: The hon. gentleman will have that chance. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman will have that chance, Mr. Chairman, after the fact. MR. CALLAHAN: That is the proper time. MR. MARSHALL: After the fact. MR. CALLAHAN: That is the proper time. Mil. MARSHALL: We have been elected for the purpose of serving the interest of our constituents and the interest of our constituents do not include giving a blank cheque for people to travel to Romania, Tok.yo, Japan, Liechtenstein and all over the world everywhere. We want to know why·this money is being asked for?

The $45,000. in debt management, I would like the Minister to I address himself to the question to what borrowings do these relate, what are 192

March 26th, 1971 MR. MARSHALL: Tape 4l JK - 4 the interest rates applicable, to give us a complete tabling of all of the debts? We must know the debt of this Province. We must know the complete detail. We must have all of the information that is available to the Govern- 111ent. One of the reasons, Mr. Chairman, why we have the problems which we have in the Western world today is because this Government has been here for so long that it thinks it does not have to give the information to the people but it wi.11 find out when it has the courage to call the general election. Hr.

Chairman, on that point, we have a total debt now, a staggering debt as I say of $1. billion dollars. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not so. MR. MARSHALL: It is so. We have a staggering debt of $1. billion dollars. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not so. It is not true. That is not a lie 1 because I do not know whether that is a lie because I do not know whether the hon. gentleman believes it. MR. MARSHALL: Is the hon. the Premier speaking on a point of order, Mr. Chairman? MR. SMALLWOOD: If he believes it, it is not a lie but it is not true. MR. MARSHALL: I believe and I know that ·the debt of this Province amounts to $1. billion dollars.

MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not true. You are hundreds of millions out, hundreds of millions. MR. MARSHALL: Which way? Upwards or downwards. MR. SMALLWOOD: Upwards. You are hundreds of millions too much. MR. MARSHALL: No• Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: It is an absolute fact. MR. SMALLWOOD: Here goes whiskers. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the member for Burin when he was speaking the other day mentioned ' MR. SMALLWOOD: Last year it was hair but this year it is whiskers. MR •. CHAIRMAN: Order please! Ordlr please! MR. MURPHY: No-one is going to laugh at that joke. MR. MARSHALL: To correct the hon. - 193

March 26th, 1971 MR. SMALLWOOD: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! peace and_quiet? Tape 43 JM - s Now look, can we hear this hon. member in MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, on the situation of the debt and I get back to the debt and I give the Premier the benefit of the doubt,for the sake of being able to express myself only,but we will say the debt whatever it is, whatever it is represented to'be,has to be determined and the Province of New Brunswick recently had a Commission to determine the debt and this was after a change of Government.

It is something that the next Government will do as well 1 but they will also have a Commission to find out why that debt was incurred. In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that the Government might consider having a Royal Commission appointed, of independent people,to determine exactly what the debt is. I say it is $1. billion dollars, the people on this side say it is $1. billion dollars, the Premier says it is less than $1. billion dollars, the hon. the acting Minister of Finance says nothing as usual but in any event, Mr.

Chairman, I think that this Government could show its sincerity in view of the suspicions that have been cast upon it. MR. SMALLWOOD: On $45,000.? MR. MARSHALL: Well, this $45,000., Mr. Chairman, MR. SMALLWOOD: It is a Budget Speech debate, Mr. Chairman. MR. MARSHALL: I am only just starting, Mr. Chairman. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is a Budget Speech debate. MR. MARSHALL: Certainly, Mr. Chairman, it is a Budget Speech debate. What do you expect? MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. MARSHALL: MR. CALLAHAN: Well, where is the Budget Speech? When you come to this House and ask for $100. million dollars. $45,000. MR.

MARSHALL: Right at this particular time, Mr. Chairman, we are asking for $45,000. but $45,000. is much more important to this side of the House than it is to the other side of the House. But in any event the question at issue, 194

March 26th, 1971 Tape 43 JH - 6 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, is whether this should be voted and I aay it ahould not be voted because it relates to debt management and because this Legialature exists purely and simply for the purpose, not purely and simply but mainly for keeping the general public informed and because the general public is not informed, knows nothing· of the debt, does not know the true facts with respect to the debt of this Province 1we should no~ do •it, we should not vote on it and that is one of the reasons why we should not vote this $45,000. for Consolidated Fund Services.

It is a shocking situation, it is dangerous, I am new to this Houae, I will be here a long time, a lot longer than a lot of the other members on the other side but I must say I have never seen anything to match what I considered to be the unbridled arroaance,contem~t and carelessness with respect to the money of the people of this Province and it is a very sorry - MR. CALLAHAN: You are learning. MR. MARSHALL: . Yes, I am learning and so hav~ the people of Newfoundland leamed. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, we have not received any answer to the questions as to what this $45,000. relates to, what bond issues?

The Minister says that it relates to the payment of legal fees, bank charges in connection with borrowings. We know that in last years estimates we voted a very substantial sum for Consolidated Fund, 195

March 26th., 1971 Tape no 44 Page 1 Kr. Croebie.; $46 odd million. Why i• not the money to pay this $4S,000 in the estimates of lut year7 The ainieter is asking for amount to be paid to legal counsels, banks ad others in connection with debt management. Why is there not sufficient aoa.iea in bis vote for the year that ends next Wednesday to pay this! If it is mney that hu to be related only t~ next year to what debt management does it relate? What are the details of it7 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairun, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Finance aleo another question.

This does not refer to the servicing of the debt. thie 1• a etatement that be made. Now I would like to ask, for my own elucidation, 1• there an extra amount. Obviously, there IIU8t be an extra amount necessary to service the debt and what is that amount? What 1a that amount for this particular period? HI. MYRJ>EH: Kr. Chairman, with regard to the $4S,000. Would the minister adviee ua if this is for the next month or two of borrowing or is it a past or vhat1 Is it for the next month or two for future borrowiDga7 MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Chairman, as I have said already, in prelillinary general remarks yesterdaJ, it ie a proportion of the estimates amount that will be required for the year. Mil. CROSBIE: What proportion? Mil. CALLAHAK: A proportion, Mr. Chainian, a reasonable proportion. MR. CIOSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the minister has co• into this Rouse and tells the Bouae that this $4S,000 ( and this is just tllustrative of everything else that 1• to follow ths $100 million) is a proportion of what the minister estimates will be required for debt management for this year.

Surely, the Bouse has a right to know what proportion thia is of the vote necessary. Ia it one per cent? I• it ten per cantl Ia it twenty per cent? Is it enough for one month? What 1B6

March 26th., 1971 Tape DO 44 Page 2 .. ~. Kr. Crosbie. i  the explanation for it? The minister asks us to vote it without having the detailed estimates before the H~use for the coming year? Now what proportion is it? Ia it ten per cent? Is it twenty per cent? Is it one per cent? Is it five pe~ cent? Why cannot the minister tell even that? The hon. the minister is determined not to answer the question. This is the way the hon. minister approaches this House to vote $100 million, starting with the first item: $45,000. Be will not tell the House what percentage is this of the vote necessary next year? MR.

CALLAHAN: A reasonable proportion. MR. CROSBIE: How can the House judge whether this is a reasonable request or not, if it is not told what percentage it is? MR. CALLAHAN: We are asking to accept it. That is what we are asking for. MR. CRSSBIE: Yes, the hon. gentleman opposite asked last year for a deficit of $50 million and ended up with a deficit of $103 million. Is that reaaonable? Was the excess of $53 million reasonable? They told the House laat year, Mr. Chairman, that they were going to borrow $29.5 million in debentures. They borrowed $97.5 million in debentures. Was that reasonable?

Ia that what the minister bases reasonableness on? Nov they ask the House for this $45,000, and we want to know what proportion of the year's expenses is it estimates to be? We want to know that for each one of those votes. Why is that $26 million being asked for Education and Youth? What percentage of the vote is that? Is the minister going to refuse to answer that? Obviously, Mr. Chairman, the minister is. MR.. MARSHALL: minister's ••• Mr. Chairman, there is just one 1110re point arising from the MR. CALLAHAN: Just one more? MR. MARSHALL: Well one more - there are a lot of points which flow 107

March 26th., 1971 Tape no 44 Page 3 Mr. Marshall from what the hon. the minister says. But I asked the questi011 to which I did not get the answer. I made the observation that this ConsQlidated Fund Services does not include the amount necessary for service of the debt. I would like to point out or ask a question,that last year the total amount to service the debt, as estimated, was $46 million. It is probably much more than that, But it was $46 million in Consolidated Fund Services.

So, if we are ta~king about twenty-five per cent extra in Interim SUJliy, you should increase that $100 million by the tune of, perhaps, $20 million that the Govemment are actually going to be required to spend during this mysterious period that we so arrogantly have been refused the infomation of what it covers. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the item carry. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, after the hon. gentleman has been in the House for a few years, he may leam that you do not. in Interim Supply and you do not with the regular estimates, ask the House to vote the money to pay the interest on the debt.

The House is never asked to vote that. The House does not vote it. It is statutory. What is asked here today is what the House has to vote, not what it has not got to vote. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. the Pi:emier for the information, and that is that,it is known to everybody. It is known to everybody who knows anything about Government financing. But the fact that the hon. the Premier cannot deny is that an extra $10 million or $15 lllillion will have to be obtained by the Govemment of the Province to pay on its debt. So, in other words this is not - $100 million MR.

SMALLWOOD: This is not to pay on the debt. _MR. MARSHALL: You are authorized to spend $100 millior, but there will be another $15 million or $20 million spent. 198

March 26th., 1971 Tape no, 44 Page 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: This is not to pay on the debt. But this $45,000 is not to be paid on the debt. MR, MAR~HALL: I am not talking about,. MR. SMALLWOOD: This is what the hon. gentleman is talking ~bout. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Premier nor no member of this House is permitted to speak from his seat. Is the hon. the Premier to be given the privilege of shouting and interrupting from his seat without rising,or he is to be brought to order? I submit that the Premier should be brought to order. MR • SMALLWOOD: Go and shave. Go and shave. MR. .

CHAIRMAF: Shall the item carry? MR. CROSBIE: No, Mr. Chairman, not yeti MR. CALLAHAN: It has been carried three times already. MR. CROSBIE: It has not been carried at all yet. MR. CALLAHAN: The hon. gentleman was out of the House. MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Chairman, on a point of order. Now, if personal abuse is to be permitted in this House, I will give as good as I get. I will not forget the business at hand either, I submit, Mr. Chairman, that personal remarks, supine, silly remarks about people's hair, whether it is dyed or bald or what it is, are out of order in this House.

If they are to be permitted by tlhe hon. the Premier,with his twenty-two years experience, then the rest of us will have to join in to. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well shave it off. We will not be able to talk about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Those in favour, "aye." MR. CROSBIE: ''Nay! II We want the recorded vote please, Mr. Chairman. Recorded vote. Well, on division, we want it noted on division. MR. SMALLWOOD: He wants his name to go down in history that he voted against it. MR. CROSBIE: Certainly, 199

March 26th., 1971 Tape no. 44 Page 5 MR. SMALLWOOD: He wants it put up on a big monument. MR. CROSBIE: We, younger people are not going to abuse you old men. MR. CHAIRMAN: This committee always rules the number in favour and the number against, without allocating any names, which is rather pointless. MR. SMALLWOOD: I gathered the impression that the hon. gentleman was opposed to it. I formed that impression. MR. CROSBIE: Can we have the vote recorded as to how many are for this , Mr. Chairman and how many are against it? MR. CHAIRMAN~ Will those in favour of the motion please rise? MR.

SMALLWOOD: Are we going to have this everytime? MR. CROSBIE: Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: No we will not. We will not do any such thing. No we will not. We will put it to a vote and see. The majority will dictate, yes, not the minority. The majority will decide. That is known. MR. CHAIRMAN: Will those against please rise? The motion is carried fifteen to six. · MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, if I am in order, I am going to make a motion, Ifs.I cannot make a motion, I will give notice of motion that no Standing Vote will be taken in this committee on Interim Supply, no standing votes. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to point out that that motion is out of order and will require an amendment b the Standing Rules. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: Motiots are to be made in the House. (2) ,legislative, $270,000. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the item carry? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, that was the general idea, I thought. I have been asked on at least two occasions, I think, from the other side as to why I had not, in fact, done that. So I propose to do it, if hon. members wish it that way. In the present case, which is no. (2) legislative, the total amount $270,000 200

March 26th., 1971 Tape no 44 Page 6 Mr. Callahan repre•ented by: Salaries, $21,000; allowances, Being sessional allowances expenses ~or members, $240,000; miscellaneous items$ 3,000, I think, in each month, a tota of $9,000 for a total of $270,000. I might say, Mr. Chairman that, of course, members were paid the f:lr&t installment of their allowances before the House. MR. MARSHALL: that. Mr. Chairman, I wonder :ff the hon. minister would repeat MR. CALLAHAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Salaries, $21,000; allowances, expenses etc., for members $240,000; other miscellaneous items $9,000. I· believe that comes to $270,000.

MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, this item is under the heading, Legislative, as the minister has just described. This is an opportunity to discuss how the business of this House is carried on. 201

-- March 26 1971 Tape 45 page 1. MR. CK68Bi@; Mr. Chairman, there is - MR. SMALLWOOD: On Interim Supply. MR.CROSBIE: a. Mr. Chairman, must I be interrupted by~member who does not even rise in his seat! MR.SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, are there rules for the Premier only and rules for the rest of us or will the Premier be kept in order.Mr. Chairman! Senility is fast advancing on the other side of the House. Now Mr. Chairman~this is a Legislative vote for salaries and allowances for members and for expenses in connection with this Legislative Assemb~y. There are three members in this House,Mr.

Chairman.who the Government is not providing accommodation for whatsoever. The same situation pertains in this House this year as last "11" and that is that three memb~rs of the House,.,member for St. Barbe South, myself and the member for Bonavista North are not provided by this vote with any office accommodation for ourselves, with any place to hang our hats or coats, with any place to keep our records, with any place to do research, we are in the corridors of this, the ninth floor here.

We hang our coats in the Clerks Office, we do not have one place to keep a file, one place to keep a copy of the Statutes, one place to keep any research material, and th~J'.t.is ar·: men's room on the floor the hon. ~minister reminds me, thank you. Yes, and we have had to use that occasionally_"/ to have a meeting in. This is very amusing. The Premier cannot stand the truth. Cannot stand the truth. The Premier likes his own looks, everywhere we look the Premier's picture, look at the Budget Speech. Look at the Premier and on the back is the Premier in twenty .years.

First page and last page. ·: -.,~: . .,.:,, : :s!::t".-~ MR.SMALLWOOD: Twelve years not twenty- MR.CROSBIE: Twelve years in activity on the other side of the House. Mr. Chairman, here there are three members of this House treated by the Government with absolute contempt representing three districts in this country, given no space 202

March 26 1971 Tape 45 page 2, no opportunity,--no place to do research, no facilities. Now I am not going to make any great point or even talk about it very long, But I think that the people of this Province should realize how the government treats the members they elect to the House of Assembly if the members happen to disagree with th~ Government. It is unheard of Mr.

Chairman, in parliamentary history,for any members of an -1c elected House of Representatives 1 be treated so shabbily by a Government who wants to discriminate against them because they disagree with the Government and what the Government should be doing. Now I just say that in passing. Mr. Chairman, this is a Legislature where the Leader of the Government does not meet with the Leader of the other Party or Groups to arrange government business, It is a House where when they do meet any agreement reached is broken. There was an agreement made in this Rouse yesterday.

MR.NOEL I do ngt really see that this has to do with the finance - IIOl, CROSBIE: This has to do with the conditions under which the members of this House meet and how its business is done, The Address in Reply Mr. Chairman, inlssupposed to be called yesterday so the member for Bonavista North could make hia apeech,he having to go out of town Sunday. Instead of that that agreement was breached and we went on with Interim Supply. That is the way the business qf lhis Rouse is conducted. Answers to questions, Mr. Chairman.

MR.NOEL: We are in committee now you know, and in committee you are not. we are not permitted to discuss what went on in the House, we have certain restrictions on us in Committee, The item here is Item 2 Legislative. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, when the estimates come before the Rouse for the full year for the Legislature or any other branch of Government the House is permitted to discuss on the first item all of the affairs that are carried out under that vote. I am discussing now what is carried out under the Legislative vote. Answers to questions, how the Government answers questions. MR.NOEL: Order please.

The hon. member is not permitted to refer to .what goes on in the House in Committee .the time to do that is in·!the House not in Committee. ') ,. 3 r., Ii

March 26 1971 Tape 45 page 3 • . MR.CROSBIE: Television and Radio coverage.of the Committee, Mr. Speaker. Television and Radio coverage, the Hon. the Premier when addressing the House on Monday thought it would be an excellent idea if we had television coverage of this House. I suggested that I thought the same way that this should be arranged. Yet we discover from the radio 1of course.,that it is"all or nothing,' aays the Premier, to this proposal. Not that the House of Assembly is going to consider it.

No, no the Hon, the Premier himself dec~des. .. ~ala. orr•o~hing.· Not a conference with the Leader of the Opposition or anyone else in the House to discuss it.

No, a unilateral decision of one member of the House, the Premier, not made by the House of Assembly as it is done in other jurisdictions Premier Smallwood says, "the Government will consider it only if it be indiscriminate, universal, full-time,unedited, and unselected television knowing full well that the people of this Province could not stomach seeing the Ron. the Premier on the airways six or eight hours a day, that it has to be universal, full-time, unedited, and unsele-ctive .,which would not be acceptable to the television stations; rather than an edited version of perhaps an hour a day or several hours a week.

That is the way the business of this House is conducted. The decisions are not made by the members of the Bouse?as they are in other Provinces,as to whether -their proceedings should be covered by radio or T.V.,the decision is made by one man, the Master, who does not hesitate to make them. •~ . -tbe :,same man who refuses to appear on Television on a p-rogramme - with the Leader of the Opposition or the member who is now speaking.

MR.NOEL: Order please~ I think the hon. member has been in the House lon~ enough to know that this is completely irrelevant to this particular item we p ,./ are talking here now,on ,item which deals with the actual financial affairs of the running of the House of Assembly and not these other items at all. MR.CROSBIE: All right Mr. Chairman, we are told before the House even meets Mr. Speaker, that this Legislature will have long sessions. It is going to meet morning, afternoon and night. Not set by the members of the House. We are discussing this Legislature Mr. Chairman. 204

March 26, 1971 Tape 45 page 4. MR.NOEL: Order please! Perhaps the hon. member did not understand me. As I understand it, the Legislative deals with the,salaries and the actual financial costs of running the House of Assembly. That is what it deals with. But the hon. member now is talking about is an-entirely different - MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, when the Government asked the House of Assembly to vote it money or when the Cabinet asks, or the Government of Canada asks the Parliament of Canada to vote it money under a heading of Legislative or under the heading of the Department of Finance, you do not just discuss the money that is going to be spent you discuss the activities of those departments or functions of Government. I am di~~sing the activities of the Legislature The Legislature cannot operate - and any time when they ask for money - MR.SMALLWOOD: No. no.

MR.CROSBIE: Yes, yes this is the right of the people and their representatives in the House. This is a House,Mr. Chairman,that, that one person threatens continua~ly, rnat the members \lfiil have long sessions if they do not vote the money. M&:,NOEL:-Order please! MR.CROSBIE: We will have long sessions if we do not vote this money~that is relevant to this debate Mr. Chairman. Mo:p1ing,afternoon and night if we do not vote the hundred million. That is what we have been told. MR.NOEL: Order please! The question before the Committee-now is whether the Legislative $270,000 will pass. Shall the Item carry?

MR.CROSBIE: No, Mr. Chairman, I am not finished speaking on this Item. I am not going to.vote in favour of this Item, because I have been threatened with morning, afternoon and night sessions if I do not vote fur it. The Government wants tboforce this House of Assembly to give it this $270,000 plus another $99 million,if we do not give the Government the money they want when they ask for it, without asking questions or debating. I am certainly not going to vote for that. I am not going to vote money for a Legislature where the forty-two members are not treated equally.

Where the members on the Governmeftt side have 205

March 26 1971 Tape 45 page 5. a large Common Room where one member who·is a Minister Without Portfolio has an office on the floor above us~never used. While three members of the House are down here with no where to meet their constituents .with no where to do any work, why should I be expected to vote $270,000 or even a dollar for a House of Assembly t.hat permits its fellow members to be treated like that.

A Common Room, a large Collllllon Room for the .Government members, a small inadequate Comm.on Room for the Conservative Members, and fot the three members sitting here as Liberal Reform Members with no space, we are told we can have a cubby-.Jtole down by the Legislative Library 7where every one can overhear you if we wanted it, eight floors down from this floor. Why should we be expected to ~ote money for the operation of the Legislature in that manner? )"'·I.- Last year there was a salary increase of $1,500 per member voted, for every member of the House. Well it is time .,Mr.

Chairman ,that some money was voted to provide office facilities in here for all the members of the Hou~e~so they will have somewhere to do their work. Every day 7when I come in I have to carry in all the files and everything 1 have to be carried in, no where else to put them. 206 .J

March 26th. 1971 Tape 46 AN HON. MEMBER: Move over now. Why wait for spring, do it now. ~. -~TRPHY: Be on the other side then hey! chief? PK - 1 MR. CROSBlE: By golly, we get some real gems. We get some real gems of advice from the Minister of Welfare. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Hansard, Hansard, Mr. Chairman, some of this money is being voted for Hansard. We want to know why there has been the

summary disappearance of the Editor of Hansard. I saw him here earlier this afternoon. The Editor of Hansard, and I think, he is called Chief Librarian, he seems to serve this House quite well during the past year? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Imagine. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not Librarian. MR. CROSBIE: Thanks for all your help. It is wonderful, it is wonderful MR. SMALLWOOD: This Government do know how to speak English. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: This Government knows how to say it would not be enchanted, if all the power of Newfoundland ~-ent to BRINCO and they use it outside of the Province, MR.

SMALLWOOD: That is right; HR. CROSBIE: for the uranimum plant. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is right, we do know how. MR. CROSBIE: Would not be enchanted. The theme of the Government should be "Some Enchanted Evening," as the power leaves this Province to created jobs outside of the Province. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: The Editor of Hansard,his resignation was announced yesterday, Mr. Chairman. We ask why? The Government does not wish to tell us why? Ia it 111 health? Was he fired? Was he dismissed? Is it a political reason? is he go~ng to run in St. Mary's Bay?

Are we going to lose this distinguished Editor of Hanaird? Surely the Government owes us an explanation of what has 207 ~· ·

March 26th. Tape 46 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: happend to the Editor of Hansard? It is the public business too. Does the hon. minister not think that the public deserves to know what he is up too in his cubbyhole dawn on the third floor, the first floor? That is the public's business. The public pays the salaries. The public has the right to know. Or has the minister realized that? Bis answers to questions indicate that he does not realize it. He has never yet answered a question tabled in this House by me, fully and completely. Never. So he better find out something about that too. What is happening to Hansard?

Is Hansard, Mr. Chairman, this year going to be printed? Are we going to have a printed version of it? AN HON, MEMBER: Here it is. You just got it. MR CROSBIE· Printed. Bound volume orRansard. Are we'going to have that? Are the Government going to consider a pay system to allow extra perhaps for out-of-town members, who live outside of St. John's? That was a question raised here last year, when the $1500 increase for the Premier and all the rest of us went through? What is going to be done about that? Is there going to be anything going to be done about the Standing Orders?

What is this miscellaneous money going to be spent on? What is the miscellaneous? MR. SMALLWOOD: The miscelleaneous. The what? The miscellaneous. MR. CROSBIE: The hon. the Premier does not like miscellaneous. MR. SMALLWOOD: Or wiskers like that. MR. CROSBIE: And he does not like ob.fuscation? I wonder c!id he get bis dictionary and look that up the other day? It means trying to confuse people, like the hon. the Premier has been trying to do for so many years. MR. CALLAHAN: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: He does not need a dictionary when he has the hon. Min~ster of Mines, Agriculture and Resources around.

He will run and get the dictionary for hl.m.J,. everytime he wants a word looked up. MR, CALLAHAN: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Where is the gaff I wonder? It is a1wonder we have not seen the Party Whip with a gaff there now that the Premier has leamed what it 208

March 26th. 1971 Tape 46 PK - 3 MR. CROSBIE: is? He has not mentioned it for four years. Now in Election Year the gaff becomes important. The guff becomes important. MR. CHAIR~AN: Order, please! Could we have a little more closeness to the subject? MR. CROSBIE: Yet, so, Mr. Chairman, in concluding my brief remarks under this heading, I would like the minister to indicate whether the Government are going to see fit to treat all the members of this House equally this session and to provide us with some - MR. SMALLWOOD: Some will be treated more equally, even more equally than others. MR.

CROSBIE: So before we vote on this item, I would like to hear from the minister on that. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I look at the breakdown given by the minister under his Subhead No. 2 - Head of Expenditure. I see salary $21,000 and allowances $240,000. Now I ask the minister first, whether this is a new breakdown different from that appearing in the estimates? Because the only thing appearing in the estimates that I can see here is allowance. The minister apparently is not going to answer the question, but you would think that we would get a break.down on this, Mr. Chairman, a proper breakdown $240,000.

We are asked to vote $261,000. The total amount provided for last year for the legislature in salaries was $350,000. All ready all of the members of this House are being paid a substantial proportion of their allowances for the year. And one asked whether this is really a serious request calculated and figured out by the Department of Finance before this parti~ular

schedule was put in or was the figure picked out of the air, as so many figures have been from time to time? AN. HON. 'MEMBER: Such as the $1 billion? MR. MARSHAL~~J._'Ibe $1 billion will probably make us go up in the air before 1fe are much older, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as we go on in this legislature grant, this head of expenditure, one of the thin~s that has occurred to me is the fact-.that, this Legislature should make more adequate and proper grant for the 209

March 26th. 1971 Tape 46 PK - 4