March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-917 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA [The House met at 1:00 o'clock.] Title: Friday, March 16, 1973 1:00 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, today is a real pleasure for me because I have the pleasant opportunity of introducing to you and through you to the members of this Legislature the class of Grade 9 from Three Hills, Alberta, in my constituency. They came up early this morning in order to be here for the opening of this Legislature at the earlier hour on Friday.

They will be staying over and visiting other areas of interest in Edmonton, the capital area, including the museum. And I am very, very pleased to have the opportunity to let you know there are 26 students, accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Dale Jackman, their bus driver, Margaret Tretham, Mrs. Joan Spruyt, parents as chaperones, Mr. and Mrs. Walter Stankievech, and Mr. and Mrs. Park. Led by their teacher Dale Jackman, I would ask them to rise and be introduced. MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, may I welcome to this Assembly 40 students. They are accompanied by a fair number of their mothers, their teacher, Rev.

Bud Greenwood, and Mayor Rudy Swanson of the Rose City. These are Grade 4 students from Charlie Killam School at Camrose. This is the second year they have attended, and in honour of this event of coming here, they have presented myself and the Premier with roses. Would they stand and be recognized by this Assembly. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Speaker, it's my privilege at this time to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly a group of Social Studies 30 students from Central High School of Hughenden, Alberta. They are in the members gallery today. They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr.

Robert Anderson and I would like them to stand at this time and be recognized. I would also like to say that because of their visit here today, I am sure that many of them will take an active

part in various governmental affairs in the years that lie ahead. MR. GRUENWALD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and to the members of this Assembly a gentleman sitting in your gallery, a very outstanding gentleman from the Garden City of Southern Alberta. I don't suppose I have to mention it's Lethbridge, but for those of you who are not aware, I should. He is probably one of the most public-spirited gentlemen in all of Alberta, Mr. Sven Ericksen. head: FILING RETURNS AND TABLING REPORTS MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, with your permission, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Alberta Department of the Environment. And the second report that I wish to table is the Annual Report of the Environment Conservation Authority.

22-918 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a reply to Question No. 130. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Municipal Grants MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs as to when he will be advising the House regarding his decision to remove the 7.5 per cent guidelines on municipal spending so that it relates to municipal incentive grants? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I don't know why the hon. Leader of the Opposition is expecting an announcement that would remove that. I've never given any indication that would happen. MR.

HENDERSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Did the minister not advise the House some weeks ago that he was considering representations that were made from the municipalities and would be making some decision within a week or so? MR. RUSSELL: That's absolutely correct, Mr. Speaker, and we have received those representations from both associations. We are assessing them and looking at the various alternatives, and are anxious to get a final decision out for the 1973 municipal tax year at the earliest possible date. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Drumheller, followed by the hon. Member for Little Bow.

Crop Failure Assistance MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Does the hon. minister know the reason why the farmers west of Spirit River have not yet received any money in lieu of crop failures? DR. HORNER: No, I'm not aware of any particular reason, Mr. Speaker. All of the claims are being processed as fast as we can, through audit, but I'll check up on that particular area. MR. NOTLEY: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the hon. Minister of Agriculture advise when all the claims will be processed?

Has the Agricultural Development Corporation given him a date as to when these claims will be finalized and paid? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. minister has already indicated that he will investigate the matter, and no doubt he will then be able to deal with both the question and the supplementary. The hon. Member for Little Bow, followed by the hon. Member for Olds- Didsbury. The Alberta Land Use Forum MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier and Minister of Agriculture.

Can the residents of Alberta, and specifically the Vulcan Chamber of Commerce, make recommendations of names for The Land Use Forum? If so, when should the recommendations be in your hands?

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-919 DR. HORNER: We would welcome recommendations from the Vulcan Chamber of Commerce, and indeed from any Chamber of Commerce or any group that is interested in land use in Alberta, and those names should come to me as soon as possible. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, supplementary. Will The Land Use Forum report, interim or final, be made public? DR. HORNER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that of course is down the road and we will have make some decision on it as we receive the reports and make sure the reports -- the question of the public interest, the question of, in fact, whether or not -- I just can't say at this time whether or not the reports will be made public or when they will be received. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question to the minister. Have you established any dates for reporting by the forum? DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, we've gone through this exercise during debate, and I suggested then and I hope that I suggested last night that this is a very complex matter, and to put dates onto such a forum would really infringe on their ability to give us a decent report. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury, followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. Fish and Game Association Grant MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Lands and Forests, and ask him why the long-standing custom of a grant to the Alberta Fish and Game Association was discontinued this year? DR. WARRACK: Mr.

Speaker, the plan of this government, and with respect to the Department of Lands and Forests in particular, to which the question pertains, is an incentive one with respect to a plan to co-operate, both financially and in management where necessary, for the development of important individual resource conservation projects. It is in that direction that we plan to make our thrust, leave available the opportunity for individuals, associations and for companies to have the opportunity for the voluntary public service many of them so strongly want to provide. MR. HENDERSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Does the word incentive apply to the government or to the fish and game group? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View. Suffield Block Rights MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the hon. Premier. It follows up on questions raised yesterday about the Suffield block. Can you the hon. Premier advise the House at what date negotiations began with the Government of Canada over the surface rights on the block?

22-920 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, there does seem to be some confusion with regard to our statement on the two items. I thought we made it fairly clear in the statement that essentially our negotations to date had been with regard to access, so that we could prove up our sub-surface rights which are owned by the province.

We added in the statement the desirability of entering into discussions with the federal government with regard to the surface rights, but we have given priority - - as the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs explained yesterday -- to the access rights so that we can prove up this very valuable natural resource. We want to put it this way to the House and to the public.

We do not want to jeopardize our negotiations with the federal government, nor I am sure, does any member want us to jeopardize our negotiations, by pressing with regard to the surface rights in such a way that access is denied to the development of this very important natural resource. MR. NOTLEY: Just for clarification then, Mr. Speaker, I take it from your response Mr. Premier, that as far as the surface rights themselves are concerned, negotiations on this matter will be in the future and that no negotiations have taken place as of now. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, that's incorrect.

As a matter of fact, on the very first discussion with the federal government they and we recognized there would always be interest by Albertans to rehabilitate a large area of our province which is now being used for a need that existed during wartime and might no longer be required. I recall, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact there was a different Minister of National Defence -- at the time it was with the hon. Mr. Benson. So, Mr. Speaker, the matter has been discussed right from opening day, however in terms of priorities exactly as stated by the hon. Premier. MR. HENDERSON: Supplemental, Mr.

Speaker, either to the Premier or the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Does the government have a commitment in principle from the federal government relative to exploration? MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the government does. MR. TAYLOR: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Premier. Does the hon. Premier appreciate the vision -- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. TAYLOR: Pardon? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. AN HON. MEMBER: He doesn’t appreciate it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View, followed by the hon. Member for Vermilion-Viking.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-921 Calgary Court House MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Public Works. Has any decision been made regarding the disposition of the old Court House in Calgary which at present is presently used as a museum? DR. BACKUS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I'll direct a supplementary to the hon. Premier. Will the Premier be announcing the disposition of the said Court House prior to the end of this session? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, I don't have any intention with regard to that matter at the present time, but certainly will take the matter as notice. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the hon. Premier. Has consideration been given to the possibility of using that Court House for the intended law faculty in Calgary? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, during the course of my pleasant stroll through the campus of the University of Calgary on Saturday, the President, as was appropriate, pointed out to me about three different locations on the campus that he thought would fit for a law school on the campus. MR. LUDWIG: Mr.

Speaker, just not to let the Premier duck this one -- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. LUDWIG: ...other locations... MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vermilion-Viking, followed by the hon. Member for Smoky River. Location of Livestock Feedlots MR. COOPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of the Environment. Mr. Minister, are there any restrictions placed on the locating of livestock feedlots by farmers along the banks of rivers and streams that go through their property? MR. YURKO: Yes, Mr.

Premier, they have to be located such -- [Laughter] I'm not sure that the hon. member will ever have the opportunity to be addressed formally in the manner in which I have addressed him. Mr. Speaker, we are concerned about the location with respect to water pollution so that if, in fact, there is water pollution then it comes under The Clean Water Act, and it can be asked to be moved under The Clean Water Act. But there is no separate set of regulations at this time under the Department of the Environment as far as feedlot location and operation are concerned.

However I might advise the House that we have a pretty substantial committee working on this type of

22-922 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 regulation or some other types of guidelines with respect to location and operation of feedlots. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Smoky River followed by the hon. Member for Sedgewick- Coronation. Provincial Parks MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. Have you or your department made a decision yet on the request for a breakwater at Winagami Provincial Park? DR. WARRACK: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

This is a major problem of some considerable long standing and if the Legislature is prepared to approve the parks budget of the Department of Lands and Forests we shall be rectifing that problem with the design and construction of a breakwater in this year. MR. SORENSON: Mr. Speaker, my question, too, is to the Minister of Lands and Forests. Do you have anything to report at this time regarding the future of Big Knife Provincial Park? You indicated earlier that you were holding discussions with local power and coal companies as to the rumour that the park may be stripmined and flooded. DR. WARRACK: Mr.

Speaker, those discussions are still going on with the help of the MLA for that area, Gordon Camrose -- [Laughter] Mr. Speaker, Mr. Stromberg and I have this private joke where I call him Gordon Camrose all the time and I slipped -- Gordon Stromberg for Camrose. We are dealing with that problem now, the background of it is quite complex but it basically involves the fact that a provincial park was established over an area where a coal lease existed and this puts the possibility of an important conflict eventually into the future, and the future has now come. MR. SORENSON: Supplementary to the minister.

Would the minister then consider visiting the park in the near future and obtaining first-hand knowledge of this not so critical situation? DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, I would be just delighted. As a matter of fact I have already visited 14 provincial parks in this province in the short time I have been minister, and Big Knife will be on the list. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Stromberg followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Bow. [Laughter] Camrose Water Pollution MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Lands and Forests.

Due to the serious die-off of fish in Driedmeat Lake, will you be giving consideration to a cleanup of these dead fish because they are polluting the waters? This water is the City of Camrose's water supply.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-923 DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, I have not had time to look in detail into that question that had been brought to my attention by the hon. Member for Camrose, but I am sure that if there is a problem of that nature there we can, with the combined forces of the Department of the Environment and possibly Agriculture as well, make things 'rosy'. MR. STROMBERG: A supplementary question. Would you allow farmers to do the cleanup of these fish? DR. WARRACK: This is a very good possibility, Mr.

Speaker, where it just may be possible to remove a problem and at the same time help some of the farming people in that community. Because I think, as all of us from agricultural areas know, fish are an excellent source of protein and vitamins that are necessary in the nutrition of animals. AN HON. MEMBER: Dead fish? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Bow followed by the hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff. Returnable Bottles MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of the Environment.

Does your department prefer the use of refillable bottles over cans for soft drink sales? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, as a policy matter, we have indicated that the department does give preference to a general swing or a general trend towards using more and more returnable refillable bottles, rather than cans, by the soft drink industry. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister. Does your department require a notice with each location where full bottles and cans are sold, pointing out where such bottles and cans can be returned for recycling? MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, for some reason the sound was muffled and I didn't quite get the full nature -- MR. WILSON: Does your department require a notice with each location where full bottles and cans are sold, pointing out where such cans and bottles can be returned for recycling? MR. YURKO: Yes, Mr. Speaker. When we initiated the new program at the beginning of this year all retailing outlets were classified as Class A depots or retailer depots for the return of refillable containers only which were sold by that retailer.

They also had to indicate on this notice the location of the universal depot where their cans and non-refillable bottles would be accepted. These notices were distributed to all retailers and, in fact, there is a fine if the notice isn't posted in a conspicuous place.

22-924 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister advise as to where non- reusable pop cans sold from the dispensing machine on the first floor of the Legislature Building cafeteria might be returned? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, I think I will leave that problem to the hon. minister and have him suggest a solution -- I mean the hon. member and have him suggest a solution. It's a bad day for me, Mr. Speaker. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Does the hon. minister know that there is no such notice as he requires in the Legislature Building? MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff, followed by the hon. Member for Cypress. Provincial Parks (cont.) MR. WYSE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. Is the provincial government planning to enact a park entrance fee in provincial parks this year or in the future, such as in the Cypress Hills Park in Saskatchewan? DR. WARRACK: To get to the last part first, the Cypress Hills Provincial Park is in Alberta and not Saskatchewan, and the answer to the question is no. MR. WYSE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Apparently the minister doesn’t know what is going on in his department -- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. WYSE: A supplementary then. Is the minister aware that one of his top officials said that -- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If the hon. member is seeking information rather than to make an announcement would he come directly to the question. The hon. Member for Cypress, followed by the hon. Member for Sedgewick- Coronation. MR. STROM: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be a lot of attention focused on parks today. I would like to ask the hon.

Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs: have there been any recent discussions on the possibility of a transfer of Wood Buffalo Park to the provincial government? My reason for asking this is that there is a second part to the question I would like to ask, and that is also whether or not there has been any consideration to an exchange of -- I believe it's the Dinosaur Park or the one down at Steveville and the Cypress Park? At one time that was an issue that the federal government discussed with the province and I would be interested in knowing if there have been any further discussions on it. MR.

GETTY: Mr. Speaker, in regard to the second part of the question I am not aware of any discussions going on in that matter. In regard to the first part -- not at

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-925 the ministerial level. However, I am aware there have been discussions at the official level in the various departments regarding Wood Buffalo Park. MR. STROM: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to clarify why I’m raising it today. I wonder if the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests can indicate to us as to whether or not there has been any interest expressed by the federal government in a possible exchange, or some deal as far as Steveville or the Dinosaur Park and Elkwater. DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, no there hasn't been during my time.

It may well be that a full review of the correspondence on this matter may reveal that there had been part of that, but not during my time. MR. BARTON: A supplementary question to the Minister of Highways. Has the hon. minister negotiated a right-of-way for the continuation of Highway No. 58 through Wood Buffalo Park? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member's question is scarcely a supplementary, perhaps he might follow in his turn. The hon. Member for Sedgewick-Coroncation, followed by the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury. Good News Party Line MR. SORENSON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Telephones and Utilities. A Good News Party Line, or space for advertising sponsored by Alberta Government Telephones, is now appearing in weekly newspapers. Is this to offset the demise of the rural telephone lines? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't know what the hon. member means by demise of rural telephone lines. We have a vast number in Alberta. But it is true that any advertising is to draw the attention of Albertans to the excellent facilities provided by AGT. MR. SORENSON: A supplementary to the minister.

Will all topics or organizational ads be accepted in this column, and if all political parties should vie for space would this pose a problem? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. member is debating. MR. LUDWIG: A supplementary to the hon. minister. In his reply he stated the advertising is to let the people know what wonderful service AGT provides. I am wondering if the minister could explain why, if the service is so wonderful, you have to convince the people it is. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View. AVC Allowances MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Advanced Education, and ask him if he has had an opportunity to check out the matters I

22-926 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 raised yesterday centring around the students at the AVC in Calgary, and their problems with income tax payments? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I don't have specifics or details I can report to the House now. However, it does appear on the basis of press reports that some allowances surely, and perhaps all allowances, whether they are manpower training allowances provided by the provincial government or whether they are manpower allowances provided by the federal government, are subject to being included in income as part of the definition under the federal income tax legislation.

It may be, and am I speculating again, that some of the students in our institutions will now be in a position where their training allowances are income in their hands. It may be that some of them may be required to pay a small amount of income tax as a result of that. I expect, Mr. Speaker, the question then becomes whether or not, and I am anticipating the hon. member, the provincial government will consider in particular this department, will consider raising the allowances so as to nullify the effect of the income tax legislation. While I am addressing my mind to that, Mr.

Speaker, I have a concern and it is this: while students in institutions may very well be required to pay a small portion of income tax because of a training allowance being now taxable, you have to remember there are probably thousands of other Albertans who are not in a situation where they are receiving a training allowance, but who are at a level of income just inside the minimum level for income tax purposes, and they too are paying $100, $200, or $300 by way of income tax. I guess it is a philosophical question I have, Mr.

Speaker, if the province and if the Department of Advanced Education were to recommend an increase in training allowances so as to nullify the tax portion which the student would have to pay, then I think it follows that citizens elsewhere in this province could say, "Well, Mr. Minister, I'm not in one of your institutions, but I too have to pay a small portion of income tax. Will you subsidize me?" I think that is a very basic and serious question to which we should address our minds, and I am. It is a concern I have and it is something I would like to think about. MR. CLARK: A supplementary question.

In light of the fact that as high as 20 per cent of the students may drop out, is the Department of Advanced Education going to take any immediate step to prevent this happening, because some of the students have already had to quit? MR. FOSTER: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is a hypothetical question when you say that 20 per cent of the students may drop out, and some may have already. I come back to my former comment, that the federal government in its wisdom has set a certain minimum level of dollars that we as Canadian citizens can earn before income tax is required to be paid under law.

When you earn, as you know, any figure above that, the tax goes up at an ever increasing rate to about 60 per cent. It's really, I think, a very difficult question: should the provincial government be involved in attempting to subsidise its citizens who are required to pay a very nominal amount of tax under what is, in fact, federal legislation and to which we are all subject? If there are students who feel particularly aggrieved and find that their circumstances are such that they have to drop out of -- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question was as to whether there were any immediate steps being taken.

I would respectfully suggest that the hon. minister is debating the question as to why no immediate steps are being taken. MR. FOSTER: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I was not. I was coming to the point that if there are students who feel because of their financial circumstances, they must now drop out, I would invite them to contact the principals in these institutions and discuss their financial affairs with them. It may be -- and I'm not holding this out as an answer -- but it may be that through the provisions of the students' assistance people and the Students

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-927 Finance Board we can find some way to accommodate them on an individual basis. That is all I could suggest at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View, followed by the hon. Member for Lesser Slave Lake. Leasing of Road Allowances MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Highways. Is he presently leasing any road allowances from either the municipalities or the provincial government? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, I thought that this question was answered before, and evidently it doesn’t seem that the hon. member is satisfied.

AN HON. MEMBER: Well, answer it. MR. TAYLOR: What's the answer? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, and a very serious one. With respect, that's not in the confidence of the minister in administering his department, and is a personal question and should not be reflected in the question period. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, speaking to the point of order. It is a perfectly legitimate question. The fact that the Deputy Premier may not like the question does not necessarily make it out of order. I think it is a legitimate question and the minister does not have to answer.

But I think it is a legitimate question and I would now like to pose the same question to the Deputy Premier. Is he leasing any road allowances from the government or the Department of Municipal Affairs? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, the short answer to the last part of the question for the hon. gentleman's own edification and not for anybody else's, is that I don't lease any land from anybody. That is not part of my administrative responsibilities as a Minister of the Crown. Nor is the question, and the hon. Minister of Highways has adequately answered it in a statement in this House.

If the hon. member wants to continue his witch hunt, that is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: The rule with regard to questions of this kind, if I remember correctly, is that questions to ministers must relate to their official capacities as ministers, and the leasing or not leasing of a road allowance would not relate to the official capacities of the minister or his official functions; even though the records which there might be of such leasing might be a matter of public concern. But it cannot be approached from the point of view of the personal involvement of the minister. MR.

LUDWIG: A supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Highways. Are there any river-access study maps available in the Department of Highways? I'm referring in particular to land which is situated along the Bow River between Calgary and perhaps Exshaw, Alberta? MR. COPITHORNE: Would you repeat the question again please?

22-928 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 MR. LUDWIG: To the hon. Minister of Highways. Are there any river-access study maps available, particularly dealing with the area along the Bow River between Calgary, Alberta and Exshaw, Alberta? MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, the matter of river-access maps, stability of the shorelines of rivers, the location of highways in respect to the soil stability and so forth, is a matter within the confines of the Water Resources Division of the Department of Environment, and if any maps do exist -- such maps will exist in the department, and I shall look into the matter to see if any are available. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I wish to particularly refer to a map I submitted to you sir, and river-access study maps originating in the Department of Highways are available. I wanted to know if the minister has any. MR. COPITHORNE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy to look into it and see if there is such a study. MR. LUDWIG: Supplementary to the hon. minister. In the event that he should not fail, if he - - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. member's supplementary is clearly, by its opening words, hypothetical. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. Minister of Highways appreciate me furnishing him with these -- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. Member for Lesser Slave Lake, followed by the hon. Member for Drumheller. Park Transfer For Indian Reservation MR. BARTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the hon.

Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Has the federal government advised the provincial government about a transfer of a portion of Wood Buffalo Park for an Indian reserve? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if that has come as an official advisement to the government. But I would be happy to look into it for the hon. member and report back to him. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Drumheller, followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. Rural Gas Distribution MR. TAYLOR: I have a question for the hon. Minister of Telephones and Utilities.

I wonder if the hon. minister has had the opportunity yet of looking into the rural gas distribution plan, and if he has any comments to make on it at this time to the House?

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-929 MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I have been taking every available opportunity to look into the question of provision of gas to rural consumers in Alberta and I should be in a position to make a a statement to the House within three weeks. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, followed by the hon. Member for Clover Bar. Zaradic Construction MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. Several days ago, Mr. Minister, I asked you about Mr.

Bury of Zaradic Construction operating in a new company and at that time you said you would investigate it. Are you in a position to report anything to the House on your investigations? MR. DOWLING: Not at this time, Mr. Speaker. It was the day before yesterday -- I had some information yesterday on the matter, but in fairness to the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, I believe I would like to wait until a total answer is available. I will probably furnish that to him by Tuesday of next week. Consumer Protection Legislation MR. NOTLEY: Just one supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate your answer, Mr. Minister. Several days ago I asked what measures the government proposed to protect the consumers in the event of contractors defrauding them and at that time you indicated there would be no legislation forthcoming at this session. My question to you, Mr. Minister is, can you advise the Assembly what specific measures your department has to protect consumers who put down payments on houses, and contractors don't complete these houses? MR. DOWLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there are certain measures at the moment.

The Licencing of Trades and Business branch as well as the Attorney General's department presently has investigation methods of enlarging on these protective measures and they haven't finalized their report as yet. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Clover Bar, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View. Chaplaincy Services DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development. Last fall, I asked a question of you and the Premier if there would be increased chaplaincy services in the institutions of Oliver and Ponoka.

Has this situation been rectified? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I pray that it has. The issue raised by the hon. gentleman related to some, I believe public statements, that were made in regard to the difficulty of having continuity of chaplaincy service primarily at Alberta Hospital, Edmonton. The chaplaincy services were provided not to the entire satisfaction of some of the people who were involved in it on a purely voluntary basis. But after that dissatisfaction did come to the attention of the department and to the director of mental health, several approaches were made to the people who were involved.

As a result, a committee of volunteers from the clergy has been brought together and I believe is effectively looking after this problem at the present time.

22-930 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View. Crump Committee MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Premier. Has the Crump Committee set up to do a study on Grande Cache the authority to subpoena witnesses and to seize documents, if necessary? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, that, I believe, is a legal matter, but my recollection of The Public Inquiries Act, where the Crump Commission was established, is that that power does exist within that Act. Just to be absolutely certain, I'll check. Crop Failure Assistance (Cont.) DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, just prior to finishing the question period, I now have a response to the question from the members for Drumheller and Spirit River- Fairview. I can advise the House that some cheques were delivered into the area west of Spirit River in the last few days. All present applications have been processed, and most of the cheques are in audit and will be available to the farmers within a matter of two weeks. There may be some isolated cases held back for field inspection. [Applause] MR. COOKSON: I'd like to ask the minister a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Have you had any word back from Ottawa with regard to the area not assigned as an area to be paid out by federal funds? We've had an exchange of correspondence, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the area referred to by the hon. Member for Lacombe. That is the Bentley-Rimbey area primarily west of the fifth meridian, which was also hit by unharvested crops. There seems to be some confusion in letters the Federal Minister of Agriculture wrote to the MP in the area, in which he said it was a provincial responsibility to designate the area. As you know, we have designated the entire province, so I pointed that out to Mr.

Whelan, and we're hoping that the federal assistance will be available to all farmers in the province, rather than just those in the Peace River area. Guidance Clinics MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I wonder, as the question period draws to a close, if I might give the answer to a question asked a few days ago by the hon. Leader of the Opposition in regard to the restaffing of Calgary and Red Deer guidance clinics with psychiatrists on a full time basis. Now the situation at Calgary is that two psychiatrists who are fully qualified practitioners are there full-time.

There are also two others who, I believe, are final year students doing some interning work there. The actual management of the Calgary clinic is not in the hands of any of the psychiatrists, but is in the hands of an administrative person. In Red Deer, as to management, it's also in the hands of an administrative person rather than a psychiatric specialist, but in Red Deer at the present time there is not a psychiatrist in full-time attendance. Park Transfer for Indian Reservation (Cont.) MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the question raised a few minutes ago by the Member for Lesser Slave Lake, I am now able to confirm that the hon. Mr. Chretien has not advised the provincial government that they are prepared to exchange part of Wood Buffalo Park for an Indian reservation.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-931 ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 1. Mr. Miniely proposed the following motion to the Assembly, seconded by Mr. Dowling: That this House approves in general the fiscal policies of the government. [Adjourned debate: Mr. Wilson] MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, in rising to participate in the budget debate, it is my intention to make constructive comments in areas where I disagree most with the government's priorities.

Granted, the government has attempted to meet many of the legitimate needs of Albertans, but my role as an opposition member is not to dwell on patting the government on the back. The hon. members opposite do plenty of that. Rather, it is my job to point out errors of omission or commission where I feel they occur. Mr. Speaker, the budget indicates a very low priority for the problems of urbanization in our major cities. Part of this crisis which the government has failed to meet is urban housing. The cost of housing is rapidly outstripping the earning power of individual urban citizens in Alberta.

We are fast approaching the problems of Toronto, for example, where less than four per cent of the population can afford to buy a new home. Our long-term urban planners are frustrated by the lack of a provincial urbanization policy. We want to know what kind of province is the government trying to guide us toward, say 20 or more years down the road. What kind of cities does the government envision for future generations of Albertans? Piecemeal, ad hoc decisions are not good enough.

For example, last April the Minister of Municipal Affairs stated in the House that it was the intention of the government to limit the size of Calgary and Edmonton. Contrast this with the statement on February 19 this year by the Premier when he said they did not have a 'no growth' policy for our two major urban centres. Mr. Speaker, conflicting statements on urbanization do not provide the direction needed. A 'no growth' policy is an admission of failure by any government at any level.

It means the government, at whatever level it may be, cannot cope with progress, that they have no answers and they cannot provide direction. We must keep in mind that people are attracted to cities because of the amenities that are offered. The challenge of government is to allow accommodation for those seeking the amenities of culture, education, recreation and employment opportunities in our cities, while at the same time preserving the beneficial environment enjoyed by the existing residents. Mr. Speaker, this budget should have taken a bold step toward home ownership for all who desire it.

The single family home has been the cornerstone of families in Alberta society. The vast majority of Albertans still desire home ownership. The facts are, a rapidly increasing percentage of Albertans in our cities are being economically forced into rental accomodation. Mr. Speaker, home ownership for the average Alberta family remains an important and viable social goal. Contrast this with the low priority placed on urban home ownership by the government in this year's budget. Moderate and low- cost homes cannot really be built today in our major urban centres.

There are many contributing factors to this situation, serviced land costs being one of the greatest. Present legislation contributes to an artificial shortage of serviced building lots. There is no shortage of raw land, and there is no shortage of capital within the private sector to assemble land and service lots. Bureaucratic delays in the planning process are a prime factor in the escalation of prices for serviced residential lots. By favouring what some regard as orderly growth, unnecessary delays contribute to an artificial shortage and play into the hands of speculators.

Quality of development should be the criterion, not restrictive control of growth. We need to make certain that the supply of serviced lots exceeds the demand in order to check spiralling raw land costs. Contiguous development restrictions also play into the hands of speculators. The development agreement process takes far too long to complete and increases the cost to the ultimate home-owner because of the extra carrying charges and property taxes. Zoning delays have the same costly effect.

22-932 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 Review of the planning and subdivision approval process should include a time limit on decisions by each agency involved. Housing supply should be introduced as one of the basic considerations in planning. Mr. Speaker, who represents our future home-owners? Our present system is designed to favour existing home-owners and maintain the status guo. Politicians must awaken to the fact that we have a responsibility to future home-owners.

With property tax the chief source of revenue, many municipalities feel forced to promote 'no growth' for lower and moderate-income houses, favouring only development of higher-priced housing, resulting in higher property tax revenue. This policy is not consistent with attracting industry to broaden the tax base. This conflict will prevail until major changes are made in the municipal revenue structure at the provincial level.

Under the present financial pressures, municipalities are treating development agreements as a source of revenue by adding imposts and acreage assessments for utility services beyond the boundaries of the new subdivisions. This results in a form of double taxation for the new home-owner. Mr. Speaker, government land banks in our major urban centres will force housing costs even higher if large tracts of 'developable' land are withdrawn from the market. Such a program could only disrupt scheduling by private builders and create shortages of land with resulting higher prices.

The best protector of consumer interests is not governmental regulation or monopoly, but vigorous competition by private developers operating in a free market. Mr. Speaker, home ownership for all who desire it can be made possible by making a few constructive steps to rearrange the priorities of the budget. The first priority should be a grant to municipalities. This grant could be used as a revolving fund for the extension of sewer and water trunk lines in advance of demand for our urban centres. This would be a self-liquidating fund recoverable on an acreage assessment basis.

Second priority, because qualifying salaries are the greatest single factor limiting home ownership, an interest property tax and mortgage payment subsidy concept should be implemented for new and resale housing. This approach will bring home ownership to those families with incomes below $8,000 per year. It would provide a form of subsidized housing that is integrated in the total community and avoid the stigma associated with public housing. The subsidy should always be extended to the family, not to the builder. Mr. Speaker, both of these priorities would be eligible for federal contribution.

The third priority would be to limit development agreement acreage assessments to sewer and water trunk lines. All other off-site services such as treatment plants and roads would be financed by expanded provincial and federal grants and loans. A fourth priority would be new planning act acknowledging present-day technology, materials, standards and planning concepts. A cursory examination of this in last year's budget reveals a shocking increase in the costs and size of the public service. The government has deemed it necessary to hire an estimated 5,148 additional civil servants. Mr.

Speaker, based on the average annual wage in the public service, this represents a cost to the people of Alberta of $40,376,000. Suppose, Mr. Speaker, that the government had decided to channel this $40 million into a commitment of home ownership for all who desire it. I am convinced we need that kind of commitment to house the people of Alberta, more than a rapidly expanding civil service. In a given population we must remember that the fewer home-owners we have the more renters we have. The more renters we have the more need we create for subsidized rental accommodation.

This situation then becomes further aggravated by the growing bureaucracy required to operate the restrictions and administer the subsidized housing. Mr. Speaker, in our two major urban centres in Alberta we do not have vacancies in the established low-cost residential areas. Rents are high and purchase prices are even higher. We must remember that every new home that is built has a trickling-down process which reduces the pressure on the lowest-cost housing.

As we build new homes, existing residents upgrade their standard of housing accommodation, and it takes the pressure off the lowest-cost housing so that the people who are seeking low-cost rental or purchase accommodation on their own would have a choice, which is not really the case today. Mr. Speaker, we are headed for a governmental housing monopoly if a change in direction is not effective. Such a system would be unresponsive to the wants

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-933 of the consumer and would recover from the taxpayers all the money required to pay for its mistakes, obstructionism and lack of efficiency. Mr. Speaker, the entire way of life of present and future generations is at stake. Surely no one here wants or advocates computerized assignment of his housing accommodation into a drab government queue. Surely Albertans are entitled to determine where and in what kind of dwelling they will live. Also, Mr. Speaker, the very survival of the competitive enterprise system this major sector of our economy is at stake. Mr.

Speaker, related to this issue of home ownership it is evident that communication is not adequate between municipal and provincial governments, between large and small municipal governments, and between the rural and urban municipalities. A better understanding between all of these municipalities would be to the benefit of all elected representatives at the two levels of government. The Alberta Union of Municipal Associations, and the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties have done an excellent job of representing their members on issues of common interest.

However, no public vehicle or mechanism presently exists for the airing of local issues or concerns of individual towns, villages, cities, counties or municipal districts with the provincial Legislature. With these important issues in mind it is vital that an opportunity be made on a regular basis for meaningful representation to the provincial government by all of these local governments. In a democratic society it is vital and essential that a larger government consider the views of all local governments, regardless of size, so that legislation affecting them reflects accurately their needs and concerns.

There is also a need for local governments to have an opportunity to understand each other's particular problems and aspirations. In essence, the provincial government must provide leadership to ensure that there be a continuing forum of ideas and opinions on all subject matters relating to local governments in the province. Mr. Speaker, the time has come to implement an annual hearing of local governments before the Public Affairs Committee of the Legislature. All should have the opportunity of appearing.

It is not expected that all would avail themselves of this opportunity every year, but it would guarantee a fair and representative hearing for our local governments and their associations. This annual meeting of the Public Affairs Committee should probably be held during the fall sitting of the Legislature. The government of the day would benefit in the preparation of legislation and budgeting, knowing the current situation of all local governments. Such an approach would greatly aid and enhance the concept of local autonomy. It would provide an input for long-range provincial government planning.

It would assist in the development of a provincial urbanization policy which is now lacking. It would provide an opportunity to hear from local government-elected representatives. It would encourage a more integral government approach. The present method of ad hoc, cloakroom, closed door, secret meetings and confidential reports surely does not reflect open government or democracy for the '70s. This present system breeds jealousy and public contempt. Mr.

Speaker, I firmly believe that democracy for the '70s would certainly receive a needed boost towards open government by annually holding legislative public affairs hearings during the fall session for all local governments. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member used the number of '5,000-plus civil servants' in the last year that have been added to the payroll of the government. Could he identify how he arrived at this number please? MR. WILSON: As I recall it, cursory examination of the Estimates for the past two years shows an estimated increase of hiring 5,148 persons.

I have taken this from the budget provided by the government. If you total the personnel firstly in the 1971 column, and then you total the personnel in the 1973-74 column, you will, I am sure, come up with a figure of 5,148.

22-934 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 MR. YOUNG: Just on a point of clarification then, Mr. Speaker. That is the hon. member's arithmetic. It's your own arithmetic, is it not? AN HON. MEMBER: It's yours. MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the hon. member a question, please? MR. WILSON: Yes sir. MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member if he has read Position Paper No. 4 put out by this government during the last session? MR. SPEAKER: That is scarcely a question seeking clarification. AN HON. MEMBER: You should read it. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS (Cont.) MR. GRUENWALD: Mr.

Speaker, could I have the indulgence of the House to revert for just a moment to introduction of visitors? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. GRUENWALD: Mr. Speaker, sitting in your gallery is a man who spent many years in this Legislature. He was a former cabinet minister. He was a Minister of Agriculture, and a Minister of Welfare for many years, Mr. Leonard Halmrast. I would ask him now to please stand and be recognized. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Cont.) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industry and Commerce, followed by the hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff. MR. PEACOCK: Mr.

Speaker, may I congratulate my colleague, the hon. Provincial Treasurer on an impressive budget, one designed to accommodate a variety of priorities enunciated in the Speech from the Throne. Now I must agree that no department can function in isolation. This is particularly important in the Department of Industry and Commerce. Having acknowledged the financial advice provided by Mr. Miniely, may I express my appreciation to other members of this cabinet, without whose cooperation our department could not have achieved so many of our objectives. To Mr.

Dickie, the Minister of Mines and Minerals, I am grateful for the introduction of the natural gas policy that recognizes the importance of providing an energy shelter for Alberta residents, and particularly for Alberta industry. The hon. Dr. Horner's outstanding agricultural programs have indeed added a new dimension to industry projects in Alberta. As labour is an integral part and an integral factor in the industrial growth, may I acknowledge the manner in which Dr.

Hohol, Minister of Manpower and Labour, has initiated a number of policies so necessary to a stable labour management relationship within this province.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-935 Finally may I express to the Premier, and for that matter, all my colleagues, my appreciation of their support and assistance in developing policies that we believe are vital to our industrial progress in the Province of Alberta. We recognize that there are three basic areas of economic development, one being agriculture under the leadership of Dr. Horner, the others being basic steel and petrochemicals.

Now while it is not my intent to dwell at great length on steel and petrochemicals, it is nevertheless important to note here that these two industries are indeed the basic building blocks for a diversified economy, and without them we will not, as a province, obtain our full potential. Having said that, I think I can make a few comments on the past year's activities of our department, the initiatives that we've introduced and those that are just in the early stages of development. Our department has been restructured in a very simple way.

We have been fortunate to draw from the private sector a number of very able people and place them in key positions. Our transportation policy introduced about three months ago has already received considerable input from the private sector. This policy recognizes that if we are to compete in the market place we must indeed develop a coordinated and effective system of all modes of transportation including air, rail and highway.

And because we are landlocked, it is quite obvious that if we are to penetrate the market we must find some way of transporting products at the lowest possible cost to our manufacturers and producers here in Alberta. In the past year we have also completed the realignment of the department for our foreign marketing offices. In order to cover the European Common Market effectively we are appointing an industrial officer to be stationed on the continent. We are in the process of interviewing at this time.

To cover the Toronto, Montreal, and eastern Canadian markets, we have, under contract for a 12-month period, a development officer in this area. We have taken the same approach in our Los Angeles office. My international marketing director has recently returned from a trip to Tokyo and South Korea, and we're about to appoint a man to complement Mr. Iimura, the present officer in Tokyo. One of the other factors we referred to a year ago was the necessity to have the private and the public sector function together.

We said at that time, that we felt it was the obligation of the government to direct, guide, and to aid, but indeed never to substitute the responsibility that industry has. And in this respect we are grateful for the many people who have joined our advisory councils and who have made a major contribution to the development of our programs. The Opportunity Fund was introduced shortly after the budget a year ago.

I'm happy to report that we have received over 3,000 inquiries from all types of people, small and large corporations, students, but perhaps most important, the cross-section that has come from rural Alberta. We hope that this will afford rural Alberta the opportunity to develop industrially and commercially. The Pacific Transportation Advisory Council is a body in which we played a major role in establishing, and one which will undoubtedly aid our Provincial Transportation Program. We have had a much greater liaison with other government bodies than in previous years.

We had several meetings with federal authorities and other ministers of industry, trade, and commerce who have met with us to discuss many of our common problems. And I think we are achieving the unity of purpose which is again so essential to our objectives. These inter-governmental programs have been indeed helped by the Minister, Mr. Getty. The Research Council under my responsibility has proved of great assistance to industry, and will play an increasingly vital

part in industries of advanced technology. Mr. Speaker, applied research is a necessity, not a luxury. I have already referred to resource processing in reference to the natural gas policy and we have achieved considerable success in encouraging processing in this province. And I am certain that we are on the verge of even greater announcements in this particular respect. Now, Mr. Speaker, our department has reviewed the economy of Alberta for 1972 in the department's publication, Alberta's Business Trends of January. The economic statistics are flattering, and the outlook for the future is indeed exciting. A review of forecasts for the Canadian economy indicates that the

22-936 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 main thrust behind the performance in both Alberta and the Canadian economies, namely consumer and capital spending, and increased personal incomes, will again be prominent in 1973. Prospects for continuing large grain sales and firm livestock prices indicate a continued high farm cash income. The coming on stream of a number of new plants, including a new pulp mill, steel plant extensions, refineries, distilleries, chemical processing, and the start-up of a range of other manufacturing plants will of themselves raise manufacturing industries to new heights in 1973.

Both higher unit prices and higher volume output are certain for the mining industry, particularly in oil and gas. Judging by the confidence and optimism of business in Alberta, construction activity should be very favourable. The national and international economic trends and conditions which affect Alberta are favourable. Both the American and Japanese economies are strong and we look forward to increased trade with these two nations. There are international events, however, over which this government has no control that may dampen our outlook a little, such as the current international monetary upheavals.

Thus far, the value of the Canadian dollar has remained close to par with the United States dollar in spite of the latter's devaluation. Consequently, our relevant trading position with our other major trading partners, such as Japan, has improved. As we are all aware, the international money situation is still unresolved. And it remains questionable whether the Canadian dollar will remain at par with the U.S. dollar in the coming months.

But even if the Canadian dollar should rise significantly above the value of the U.S. dollar, Alberta's trading position should remain basically unchanged and very sound since the international demand for Alberta products exists, and particularly in the United States market place. The general uncertainties engendered by the present Canadian political situation should, I think, be counterbalanced by the likelihood of massive expenditures in various forms to improve the economic and employment situations generally in Canada.

But having provided this general outlook, may I now just discuss very briefly each sector of our specific areas of government. First in manufacturing. The recent change in the international monetary situation, the tariffs and tax reductions in the last federal budget, plus anticipated adoption of the corporate tax changes proposed in May, should provide additional stimulus to this sector in 1973. It is not unreasonable to expect a minimum of a 10 per cent increase in the value of manufactured shipments in Alberta in 1973.

Forecasts of livestock prices and continuing high consumer demand for food and other products, coupled with industry's announced intention of new manufacturing facilities support our optimism for the coming year. As well, we expect capital expenditures in the manufacturing industry of Alberta for 1973 to increase by close to 10 per cent, and approach approximately $300 million. Our objective in this capital expenditure field in the next five years is to triple this dollar amount.

Some of the larger projects expected to start during the coming year include a cement plant at Exshaw, expansion of a tire and rubber plant in Calgary, an extension of a steel fabricating and steel program in Edmonton. In addition a decision on the construction of the Syncrude facility near Fort McMurray, is expected to start and become firm in 1973. Numerous other projects Mr. Speaker, valued between $1 million and $100 million are proposed and expected to start in the year of 1973. In the mining area -- we'll hear more in detail from the Minister of Minerals and Mines, my colleague Mr.

Dickie -- we can say however, that following the favourable performance of the petroleum and natural gas industry in 1972, we expect increased prices and increased domestic and U.S. demand for our fuel. The increase in production of crude oil and equivalent natural gas should not fall below the 1972 growth of 21 per cent and 17 per cent respectively. Sulphur sales are expected to increase in 1973. We expect prices will show increased net-back to the producers, for the first time in many years. Coal production is expected to maintain 1972's pace or better.

Alternate markets are being researched to relieve the dependency on Japan. It is interesting to note, before I came into the House this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, we had received a call from eastern Canada indicating a large interest in over 400 million tons of coal was being developed there and it's likely we will be moving low-volatile, metallurgical coal into American and eastern Canadian markets before long.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-937 Accelerated oil and gas exploration activities in western Canada will likely continue because of further increases in crude oil and natural gas prices. In general, the outlook for the petroleum and natural gas industry in Alberta is indeed promising, with increased prices and strong demand for raw and processed products well assured. Rising prices and expanding demand, both domestically and internationally, are already promoting additional exploration activity in western Canada.

Major energy resource development projects, such as the Athabasca Tar Sands and the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline have now become more attractive and their development, I hope, will become a reality in the future years. As the Premier stated, increased prices of our natural gas will have the effect of more drilling activity, certainly in the deep and sour gas areas. Modifications to Mr. Dickie's Drilling Incentive Program will continue to excite the independents to explore and drill in Alberta.

The construction industry, in responding to a survey conducted by our department, indicated that increased revenue and profits are expected by at least two-thirds of the respondents, and they attributed the favourable performance of their industry to the Alberta economy and the anticipation of increased capital expenditure. More than half the respondents engaged in commercial construction expect increases in sales, revenue and profit in 1973. The outlook for prices is for further increases in the year ahead. Now, as stated previously, Mr. Speaker, by Dr.

Horner, the outlook for all major Alberta crops in the next six months is favourable. High prices are expected to prevail for each. Cattle marketing in 1973 is expected to be close to 7 per cent above the 1972 average. Hog marketing is also expected to be strong, with firm prices and strong domestic and foreign demand. Now, given these prospects, it is expected total farm cash receipts in Alberta will be maintained at all levels and slightly above those experienced in the previous year.

Though little is said about our forest industry, rising personal incomes and the general expansion of Alberta's economy will be important factors in the demand for lumber in 1973. It is expected that the volume of single-dwelling starts will continue at high levels in Alberta in that year and reports from the United States indicate the upswing in the economy will again influence a strong demand for housing, and in turn, sustain Alberta's lumber exports for the year 1973.

With a new pulp mill nearing completion near Grande Prairie, accompanied by an expected increase in production at Hinton, inventory build-up will push pulpwood production in Alberta upwards to new heights. In

summary then, prospects for 1973 indicate consumer expenditures on goods and services will again be in excess of 20 per cent. Spending on durables is expected to be strong for the first half of 1973, particularly in such items as household appliances. Earlier economic forecasts for the year indicated decreases in both inflation and the unemployment rates, however, these initial forecasts did not take into account the recent realignment of the world's major currencies as well as the tariff and tax reduction of the federal budget.

The devaluation of the Canadian dollar will raise the price of imports, thus supplying further inflationary pressures in Canada. The tax and tariff reductions of the budget, on the other hand, should reduce the inflationary pressures on the economy. It is difficult to predict the final outcome because this will ultimately depend on the international monetary situation. The future domestic monetary policy will depend on how private industry and the consumers react to these tax and tariff cuts. However, it would appear that some easing of the inflationary pressure may still result.

Unemployment should decline but likely still remain above a 4 per cent level in 1973. Now, Mr. Speaker, in my introductory remarks I described some of the thrusts initiated by the department in the first year of our operation. May I now enlarge on some of the most significant ones? I referred to transportation as the key to the development of industry in our province. Historically Alberta has fought the many influences which have tended to reduce or impede economic diversification. Among these influences related to economic expansion, the cost ambiguities associated with

22-938 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 transportation have probably received more time and energy than any other single problem. Mr. Speaker, in a landlocked and remote economy located far from the large domestic and international markets, Alberta is forced to rely on transportation to a far greater extent than all the other provinces in Canada save one, which is Saskatchewan. Transportation is indeed the key to continued prosperity and the development of our province.

It is imperative that our manufacturing industry has the capability of reaching out into central Canada and into the international market places so that they may maximize production and realize their full potential growth. It is further apparent that Alberta, in common with other provinces, has little or no voice in the development of federal positions on transportation matters affecting the province. This is particularly evident in the development of intra-provincial air routes and in bi-lateral negotiations for extended services on the international air routes. Mr.

Speaker, it is rather interesting to note that the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview belittled the comments in stating that we in the Province of Alberta should have a far greater say in the development of the intra- provincial air routes than we have had in the past, and that if we did not have a greater part to play in determining those routes, then we would take it upon ourselves to search for ways and means to make it happen. He alluded to the fact that he felt this was ultra vires. I would suggest to him that there is a precedent established in Canada, and that is certainly in Ontario.

And so we expect and intend to pursue with vigour the development and the input into establishing and having a say in the direction of our transportation policy in Alberta. Mr. Speaker, we have identified further impediments to the growth of Alberta which in brief are as follows. First: the rate levels on export movements inhibit the development of trade with overseas markets.

In fact some rate structures lead to the export of manufacturing activity and I am sure we are all aware of the classic example of where we can send rapeseed to the tidewater and ship it to Japan at a cheaper rate than we can ship the processed product after it is crushed, such as the oil and the meal. Consequently we are actually exporting our manufacturing rights. Second: capacity restrictions and other hindrances in present rail facilities to the West Coast restrict the uninterrupted flow and future growth of Alberta's commodity exports to Pacific Rim markets.

We have just recently, in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture, done research on a particular facility at Vancouver Harbour, what is commonly called No. 2, to determine the special grains and storage capacity that will, to some degree, alleviate some of the problems in facility storage capacities at the port site. Third: the lack of overall planning involving municipal, provincial, and federal authorities in air transport has resulted in uncoordinated development of facilities, each of which serves some specific purpose but does not contribute to any overall strategy.

Fourth: the present limitations of our roads, rail and air routes and services are restricting the development of trade with northern regions. There is a requirement for concerted provincial involvement beyond past levels of effort in the development of northern transportation facilities. Fifth: insufficient attention has been given to the research and development of new transportation technology inclusive of equipment, systems and methods. Sixth: another area we are pursuing involves the many firms in Alberta that require assistance in improving distribution methods and reducing transportation costs.

Those services are being initiated. There is a limited knowledge of the effects of the economy on varying degrees of highway transportation regulations. And last, but not least, the costs and limitations placed on commercial carriers operating through the rational parks inhibit the efficient movement of goods in interprovincial trade. In recognizing these problems, Mr. Speaker, the needs of transportation in western Canada, and in Alberta particularly, we have been instrumental in

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-939 organizing the Pacific Transportation Advisory Council. This Council is composed of representatives of western Canadian shippers, transport companies, labour groups, harbour facilities and the four Governments of Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and Manitoba. The object of this Council through the secretariat is to coordinate all the studies and set priorities. And this, Mr. Speaker, we think is one of the most exciting developments that has taken place regarding the problems facing western Canada in transportation over all the years.

To identify the transportation problems of moving products from western Canada into the market place is, of course, another one of their objectives. This Council certainly will complement our government's new transportation department. Mr. Speaker, a second hindrance to our industrial development in the past has been the availability of capital funds to aid individuals and corporations in any industrial endeavour. In my speech in this House last year, I referred to the Alberta Opportunity Fund as the cornerstone of our industrial offensive.

It was conceived to provide new hope for small industry, particularly those located in rural Alberta and to provide a more flexible access to risk capital and to encourage the development of job-creating commercial ventures. I would like to quote from that speech when I said: The Alberta Opportunity Fund Act has been designed to accommodate a broad spectrum of our people in a manner that will challenge the initiative of those in the past who were obliged to stand still because of the limitation of their capital.

We said that we believe it will inspire some to expand their facilities, others to improve their technology and yet others to generate new kinds of exciting industry within Alberta. Mr. Speaker, this is exactly what the fund has done. It has suffered some growing pains, but we are pleased with the Opportunity Fund and its progress to date. I have had the privilege to officiate at the opening ceremonies of a number of new industries in Alberta, and with considerable pride in witnessing their development growth as a consequence of the assistance they have received from this Opportunity Fund.

To name a few: canoe manufacturing, egg processing, dehydrated alfalfa, ceramic products, steel fabricating, potato processing, track vehicles. And one which is particularly exciting to me because it was a creation from the area of our Alberta research into development of Alberta management and capital is the activated carbon plant that just went into production in Lethbridge. It was developed and organized by the Alberta marketing team, and their first-year production is totally sold. I made some reference to over 3,000 inquiries that we have received since the fund was first established.

These inquiries resulted in 170 applications for loans during the six months prior to December 31. The further 66 applications representing a further some $10 million were in process at the year end. We believe that circumstances at the present time point to a dramatic increase in the thrust of this program through the strengthening of corporate structure and the relocation to a rural setting in the coming months ahead, and we are looking forward to the identification of the Opportunity Fund having its headquarters in Ponoka.

These actions will facilitate first, a closer identification of the needs of rural Alberta; and secondly, the development of a long-range policy for bringing meaningful assistance to business in all the sectors and areas of Alberta. A third priority of our department is our marketing endeavour. The newly- created International Marketing Branch of my department has formulated its programs and activites for the year ahead.

The major objectives are to further the growth of Alberta's manufacturing industry through imaginative and vigorous productivity improvement -- import substitution and export marketing assistance programs. Existing export capabilities for goods and engineering services have been identified and new opportunities are being developed. In close cooperation with the Department of Agriculture we are focusing on specific market opportunities. A comprehensive marketing intelligence system has come into being capable of serving all government departments, as well as industry. Financial and other

22-940 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 export systems programs are about to be finalized providing help with export documentation, communication, promotion of Alberta products and services to exhibitions, missions and trade fairs. Market industrial development officers stationed in Alberta's international offices in London, Tokyo and Los Angeles provide up-to-date economic and marketing intelligence and assist Alberta manufacturers in establishing new markets, or arrange for joint ventures and licensing agreements.

During the 1972-73 fiscal year the Marketing Branch was instrumental in the organization and follow-up of the previous economic mission to Japan. As medium and long-term objectives, we have established a good working relationship with the Germans, the Japanese, the British, and with the principals of steel, petrochemical and financial industries throughout those countries. A comprehensive pocket survey of the Pacific Rim countries aimed at the new substantial markets of all terrain vehicles, oil exploration equipment and specialized engineering services is currently underway.

In all instances the Marketing Branch activities are integrated with the existing federal programs to avoid any duplication. The Marketing Branch is a member of the joint Federal-Provincial Industrial Task Force, and we were instrumental in the formation of the Sulphur Development Institute of Canada, whose prime objective is to develop new uses of Alberta's rapidly growing stockpiles of elemental sulphur. [Mr. Speaker left the Chair.] [Mr. Ashley Cooper, MLA, in the Chair] Now, Mr.

Speaker, there are many other areas of the department that if time had permitted, I would have liked to have been able to make some reference to. Hopefully in the course of the debate, questions directed to me will provide me with that very opportunity. Perhaps I might be able to comment on two subjects which I think are of direct relationship, not just to my own department, but which have an effect on every aspect of the government services and therefore will be of considerable interest to each member of this House.

During the past year the subject of foreign investment has been one of constant debate and interest, not only for Albertans but for all Canadians. My department, in recognizing the importance of this issue, has been collecting information, and is presently drafting suggested policy alternatives for the government's consideration through Mr. Getty's department. This government will do all in its power to ensure that all provincial interests are protected and that the Province of Alberta is able to participate directly in any decision which affects the economic development and prosperity of this province.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, one goal that we have often stated is that our province must develop an expanded base of industrial activity. This does not mean growth for growth's sake, but rather growth and diversification for the benefit of our people. Today in Alberta we have unemployment problems of major concern. Many young, talented and educated Albertans are unable to find worthwhile employment. There are university graduates who have in some cases invested approximately four years of training.

We want them to believe in our free enterprise system so that we must show them that such a system can indeed provide meaningful jobs for them. Too long have we relied on our natural resource industries. Now we must diversify our industrial base. By diversification we can create meaningful employment, not only for over 50,000 students enrolled in post-secondary education in the province, but for the estimated 100,000 or more students who will be attending post-secondary institutions by the year 2000.

Despite shifts in educational enrolment patterns, our provincial economy must be prepared to absorb annually between 30,000 and 40,000 new people into the work force. To this end our government and my department will work toward the expansion and diversification of our secondary industry sector. If we do not create these jobs, then we will tend to face the gradual loss of our talented youth.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-941 This hidden export of one of our natural resources is a serious problem which must be solved within the next few years. Coupled with this challenge of creating employment opportunities, we have also the responsibility to ensure that our educational system delivers people who have the knowledge and skills needed by Alberta industry, and to prepare for the mobility for our people in the labour force to meet the existing challenge of the North. As the requirement of industry changes, so must the educational programs change.

My hon. colleagues, the Minister of Manpower and Labour, Education, and Advanced Education will be developing long-range forecasts, manpower demands and educational requirements in order to insure that the education system will produce the kinds of skills needed for tomorrow's industry. In these remarks, Mr. Speaker, I have endeavoured to present to the House a review of the past year and a forecast for the future. The programs we have introduced, and those that are yet to be conceived, will all have one common denominator.

Every thrust of our department will be identified with the private and public service working together. Our conception of this relationship is to insure that the individual is provided with the opportunity to successfully achieve his or her respective target. We realize that if business and industry are to perform their function in maintaining strong employment and creating many new jobs, our role is to insure that a healthy economic environment exists so that they may succeed in this important endeavour. Now, Mr. Speaker, I don't think it is the custom at any time to apologize for what one has said.

But I appreciate that this particular talk today has some statistics and maybe is repetitive in some areas, but I think it is most important to the members of this House to be aware of what the Department of Industry and Commerce, as an economic environment department, is attempting to contribute to the economic diversification of Alberta. Thank you. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS (Cont.) MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if we may revert to Introductions. We have with us this afternoon 90 students who have just arrived from Forestburg in my constituency.

They are seated in our gallery, they are accompanied by their teacher, Mrs. Bunny, their bus driver, and may I ask them to stand and be recognized by this Assembly. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Cont.) MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lloydminster. [Mr. J. Miller rose.] MR. WYSE: Mr. Speaker, the Chair had already recognized me as the next speaker but it's fine. MR. J. MILLER: Go ahead. MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff may proceed then. MR. WYSE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I take a great deal of pleasure this afternoon in participating in the budget debate.

As you know, I represent the fine constituency of Medicine Hat-Redcliff, and because I did not participate in the Throne Speech debate I think it is important this afternoon that I express some of the views, some of the issues, some of the concerns of the people in my particular constituency.

22-942 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 Like all of the other members thus far, I want to congratulate the hon. Provincial Treasurer in bringing down his second budget. I might mention at the outset that I certainly don't agree with everything that is in it. I'd also like to congratulate the hon. Roy Farran for getting the 'nod', and taking his place in the front row. I mentioned in my speech last year that I would, in fact, be looking forward to the time when he would take his rightful place and I'm sure he will do a very good job.

Some of his immediate concerns, of course, are with the rural gas policy which is of particular interest to the people in my constituency. Now regarding the budget, Mr. Speaker, as I already mentioned, I am disappointed. It seemed to me that we listened for an hour, and ten minutes. It was over an hour and the provincial government could have read the meat of it in about 10, 15 or 20 minutes. It seemed to me there was close to an hour of nothing less than backslapping, talking about some of the old programs, some of the things we have already heard. And it seemed to me, Mr.

Speaker, the propaganda in the budget was like a stick of gum, it's ok to chew, but not to swallow. And it seems to me the government is pretty selective when it is talking about some of the past efforts, some of the past programs of the government. It seems to me if we are going to reminisce, if we are going to tell a story about the past, we shouldn't pick out a point here and a point there, but we should tell the whole story. And this gives an honest picture.

It seems to me that up until the past 18 or 19 months, the people of Alberta were used to getting the entire story, the whole story under a Social Credi t government. Now, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the people of Alberta are becoming concerned, concerned about a government that says that we are going to get rid of bureaucracy, that we are going to cut the fat out of the government and then increases the staff of the government as never before. And it seems to me it doesn't matter what department you look at, there has been a terrific increase in staff.

The people are also concerned about political patronage that is taking place. I will attempt to give you some examples as I go along. The people are also concerned about the provincial debt. Here we have a Progressive Conservative government which has only been in power 18 or 19 months and already we have a debt of close to $300 million. It's a real record and I bet next year it'll be another record. I don't know about the other members in the House, Mr. Speaker, but people have been saying to me, "Oh, if we only had known. We would have voted differently in the last election." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR.

WYSE: And, Mr. Speaker, in referring to the budget, I have been sitting here the last week or ten days trying to think of a word that best describes it. And, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the words that best describe it are "a stand- pat document." I think it is unfortunate for the people of Alberta, because really it is not a very significant document. Mr.

Speaker, this is a time when the government should be concerned about the high cost of living, the unbelievable increase in inflation, about new programs, considering unemployment -- but it seems to me that the government is content to just pat themselves on the back. Mr. Speaker, hardly a day goes by that I don't receive some correspondence from people in my constituency who are concerned, people who are in need -- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Table it, table it. MR. WYSE: I wonder if we really believe what we say when we are concerned about the people in this province.

This afternoon, I just want to read a couple of letters. I won't read them all, but I will read a portion of them.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-943 Just a line to let you know that $167 a month for six people... just isn't enough as my bill runs over $200.... It doesn't even come out to $1 a day. And then she goes on to say about the lunches she packs. She is trying to get by on it, but it's just impossible. And then at last she says: I know of a lot of women that say the same thing. I am sorry saying things to anyone like this. But I just can't make ends meet. I sure hope you will be able to do something for us [very] shortly. And P.S. We appreciate the wonderful work you are doing. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR.

WYSE: Just another letter, Mr. Speaker, from my constituency again. "As I have four children, and also set all four lunch kits for school...I haven't got near enough to cover the groceries." Both these are from women who are on social assistance. "Everything goes up all the time and I do put a garden in every year...But it is hard to keep going on the little I get..." MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, will the hon? member permit a question? When she said that it is hard to get by on the little she gets, did he refer her to the Minister of Social Development? MR.

WYSE: But anyway, there are a couple of concerns from people from my constituency. When we read the budget, Mr. Speaker, or hear the members on the other side speaking, we get the impression that all is fine here in the province of Alberta, that we don't have ary unemployment, that we don't have any people in need, that we don't have any people living under the poverty line. But really things aren't that so spic-n-span and so fine here in Alberta. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to mention just for a few minutes -- and I'd appreciate it if members of the other side wouldn't keep interrupting me -- I'd like to mention briefly the new tax reduction plan. Mr. Speaker, I wonder whats new -- MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order please. MR. GETTY: Would the hon. minister permit a question? MR. WYSE: Possibly when I'm finished, Mr. Speaker. MR. GETTY: I'm sorry Mr. Speaker, but if the member is going to read a letter in the House, it is the custom that it must be tabled. Now, I wonder if that's his intent to do so? MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

Could we follow the usual custom of the Conservative government that before this letter is tabled, he will obtain permission from the person who wrote it? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

22-944 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 MR. GETTY: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, that's if you quote from it in the House. But I'm suggesting, not on any correspondence held by the government, but rather if the document is used and quoted in the House, it must be tabled. I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, you'll find in Beauchesne where that is supported. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure if you read Beauchesne, you won't find that particular ruling at all. What you will find is that if a member quotes from it in the House, and the House asked him to table it, he is required to table.

But there is no such thing in Beauchesne that says he has to table it simply because he quoted from it. I think, in view of the contents of the letter, probably the hon. member will be quite pleased to pass the information on to some of the gentlemen seated opposite. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, if the member wasn't listening, I asked for it to be quoted, and tabled -- to be tabled. MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Is the hon. member prepared to table the material from which he quoted? MR. WYSE: I'll table it, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please.

I think it is customary in this House to table written material from which you quote, and I would ask the hon. member to do that at the conclusion of his address. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Speaker, just on a point of order, I think in view of the exercise that took place in this House in earlier times about tabling confidential welfare information, maybe there should be some opportunity to exercise some discretion. Either that, or the hon. Member for Intergovernmental Affairs takes sole responsibility for the possibility of revealing confidential information. MR.

ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, I've given my ruling. The hon. member may proceed with his address. MR. WYSE: Well Mr. Speaker, I'd like to continue again, after I was so abruptly interrupted. I'd like to mention, as I stated, the new Tax Reduction Plan. The question is, what's new about it? As far as I'm concerned it's nothing less than a continuation of the Social Credit's Homeowner's Grant.

And I'll be the first one to admit here this afternoon, that when I first read it -- when I first heard it -- I was impressed. [Interjections] Like many other people in the province, after studying it, and taking all things into consideration, it's impressive for the Lougheed Government, but not for most of the local governments. It certainly is not solving the provincial municipal financing problem. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial government is continuing to treat the local governments like children.

It is taking away their local autonomy, and it seems to me that if the federal government did this to the provincial government it would still be crying. But the provincial government can do it to the local governments as it feels fit - - in other words, it is blackmailing, and as far as I am concerned it's a real snow job. I have been in public relations for a number of years and I have

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-945 never seen a snow job like this in all my life. It's nothing less than a professional job at public expense. The local governments have been asked to hold the line at 7.5, but the provincial government increased its own, I think, by over 13 and this isn't consistent. But again, when we look at the unconditional grants -- and I have brought this up in the question period before -- we have Medicine Hat and Red Deer who have approximately the same population, but Red Deer is getting approximately 4 times as much, 141,000 difference. So in turn we asked the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs, "What's the formula? What's the reason?" We asked the hon. minister if he has a formula and he claims he has a 20-page working formula but he has not tabled it. The minister indicated to us that he is trying to simplify it, so in fact the municipalities and the MLAs can understand it. Well this isn't good enough for me, it isn't good enough for the opposition, and it's not good enough for the local governments.

I would like to read a few lines here from The Alberta Urban Municipalities Association, and it is an open letter to the Government of Alberta about the Alberta property tax reduction plan: The fault appears in the restrictions by way of penalties it imposes on the municipality we govern and the 'in between the lines' philosophy it expresses in relation to the concepts of responsibility of local governments and local autonomy. We, of course, refer to the unconditional assistance grant wherein we stand to lose a very significant amount of revenue if our municipal mill rate exceeds an annual growth of 7.5 per cent.

As with all legislation we first ask ourselves, what is the intent? Do you not believe we are governing our municipalit y in a reasonable manner? Are you in a position to judge the needs of our municipality better than we? Do you believe that all municipalities should be reduced to have standard norms? Co you not believe that if it so chooses, a city, a town, a village or a rural area should be allowed to develop uniqueness in form, character or life style? Do you really wish to dictate the growth pattern and quality of life for each and every municipal unit in our province?

Are the needs of the large and growing municipality not different than a small urban centre with a stable population, or a rural area suffering from loss of residents? We don't really think you do, but by this seemingly innocent penalty you interfere, and to put it bluntly, meddle in our affairs. And then it goes on to say -- I'll just read a few more lines here: To add to our confusion and speculation as to intent, we note an inconsistency inasmuch as your government approaches the government of Canada demanding increased unconditional funds, block grants and program assistance with no limited strings attached.

We, for the most part, endorse your position and submit to you that we in turn using the same line of reasoning, ask and expect to receive increased unconditional assistance from you. And I say, isn't this only right and proper? I think I will read a few more lines. What about provincial-municipal finance arrangements? We along with others have protested the piece-meal approach to solving our fiscal problems.

This plan you propose once again only strikes at a segment of the overall problem and does not in any way achieve the basic objectives in terms of reference, that of seeking the proper division of responsibility and relating each to specific sources of revenue. We point out to you that you still have left the municipalities in a financial bind. Other smaller municipalities calculate that the reduction in the Municipal Assistance Grant will result in such a substantial increase in the mill rate that they will be unable to qualify for the municipal incentive grant.

Is this the additional elbow room we ask for and expected to receive in the rearrangement of things? Our own resort will be further manipulations of present revenue sources that may in no other way reflect ability to pay. And ultimately we will be forced into major property tax increases, thus taking away that which our government so generously gives. As responsible elected officials we are also demanding long-range fiscal programs.

22-946 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 And they go on and on. I wanted to just read a couple of things from our own paper. "The City of Medicine Hat is not the only municipality in the province concerned about the province’s new municipality financing formula." But these again are some of the concerns from not only the people in my constituency, the municipalities -- and Mr. Speaker, in looking at one of the old speeches from our Municipal Affairs minister now, when he was in the opposition, oh, how things can change in 18 or 19 months. It's unbelievable.

And here is what he says: "But I submit that the grants now, instead of being a direct form of municipal assistance are becoming tools of blackmail." And I say, what is the government doing now? Exactly the same things to the municipalities. AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed, oh yes, blackmail. MR. WYSE: I am glad that the hon. Minister of Agriculture has returned to his seat. I want to mention that particular department for a minute if I may. MR. ZANDER: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. WYSE: I said I may, Mr. Speaker, when I finish. AN HON. MEMBER: Atta boy! MR.

WYSE: Concerning the Department of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker, again the people of Alberta are concerned, concerned about the growing bureaucracy in this particular department. Last year they had over 200 new employees, this year close to 400 new employees, possibly next year, 800. Who knows? And the people of Alberta are saying to me that the Department of Agriculture is like a bloated cow, the minister is building a real empire. I am ashamed to stand here in my place today and say it -- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR.

WYSE: - - that we have a Minister of Agriculture who is trying to undermine the Canadian Wheat Board, a farmer-owned co-operative -- [Interjections] DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, if the hon. member is going to spout off he should at least be somewhere close to the truth. The Canadian Wheat Board is not a farmer-owned co-operative, it is an arm of the federal government and one of our complaints, Mr. Speaker -- MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order --

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-947 MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. minister is speaking at the moment. [Interjections] DR. HORNER: One of the complaints we have with the Canadian Wheat Board, Mr. Speaker, is that very fact, that there isn't producer representation on it. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, speaking to the point of order, under what rule can the minister get up and enter the debate without even attempting to quote a point of order? DR. HORNER: Tell the hon. Member for Mountain View -- MR. LUDWIG: I am speaking to the point of order now and I must submit, Mr.

Speaker, that members in this House have been threatened to be named for much less an offence than the Deputy Premier is guilty of right now. DR. HORNER: I can understand the hon. member's sensitivity, Mr. Speaker, but when an hon. member spouts an inaccuracy, actually it is the responsibility of other members to correct him before he gets into a bad situation of misleading the House. MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. minister was correcting -- I would say -- a mistake made by the member speaking and we all realize it. The Canadian Wheat Board is certainly not a farmer-owned co-operative.

Would you please continue. MR. WYSE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I apologize for farmer-owned co-operative. But it is represented by the farmers and it is something that the farmers of Alberta -- not only Alberta, but Saskatchewan -- fought for, for a good many years. Then, Mr. Speaker, we also have a Minister of Agriculture who takes the law into his own hands. I would like to know where he got the support for this action that he is taking. It sounds to me like it's an idea that arose out of the Alberta Grain Commission.

It's a harebrained idea and it's certainly not the thinking of the majority of the farmers in Alberta. I would like to read an

article on that. This is from the NFU. It says, "NFU criticizes Horner's strategy." And then I will read an

article from a delegate of the Alberta Wheat Pool; Alberta's agricultural minister, Hugh Horner, is using subtle strategy to undermine the authority of the Canadian Wheat Board... Mr. Miller, speaking at a public meeting said some provincial governments are 'empire building' at the expense of the public good. He cited Dr. Horner's stated position on intending to intervene in the case of Alberta farmers convicted in the over-delivery of rapeseed to the crushing plants in defiance of Wheat Board regulations.

"This is clearly a subtle strategy to undermine the authority of the Canadian Wheat Board while leading people to believe that it is in their best interests, the farm leader said. "Concentrating more power in the hands of the province is a backward step when the problems are crying out for a national solution. "Mr. Miller said it was "ironic" that Alberta should be taking this attitude because that form of "balkanization" comes at a time --

22-948 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. MR. APPLEBY: Mr. Speaker, I was just wondering if it would be possible for one of the other hon. members opposite to read the paper for the member. MR. COOKSON: [Inaudible] MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I agree they have most of them. MR. WYSE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to read the short statement by a delegate of the Alberta Wheat Board. The hon. minister has been reading some articles from the Wheat Pool Budget and we'll read another one now.

The Canadian Wheat Board was defended by a rapeseed grower Wednesday for prosecuting those farmers who have exceeded Wheat Board quotas in deliverying oilseed to crushing plants. Park Dobson of Paradise Valley told in conference on oilseeds that he objected to plans of Agriculture Minister, Hugh Horner, for the province to intervene in the cases of several hundred farmers charged under the Wheat Board regulations. "I resent the government defending a lawbreaker with tax money from my pocket. Let's quit nit-picking at Wheat Board controls which are being enacted to help the producer." Mr.

Speaker, I think this is the feeling of a lot of the farmers in Alberta. [Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair] Mr. Speaker, in carrying on I think we are all interested in the Alberta Grain Commission -- the politically appointed committee. The question is; what are they doing? Where are they? No one ever hears anything about them. I would like to know if they are still operative. What are some of the new approaches they were going to take? I think it will be interesting to note the cost of this commission to the taxpayer of Alberta.

Then the other day the hon. minister, trying to justify the committee's existence said it was the work of the Alberta Grain Commissioner that in fact brought lower freight rates to barley growers in northern Alberta -- all of them. Mr. Speaker, I think that is the statement of the day or the month, or whatever you want to call it. Taking away credit from the Unifarm, taking away credit from the NFU, taking credit away from the grain companies, it is completely disregarding the work they have been doing. The arrogance, as far as I am concerned, is unbelievable. Mr.

Speaker, a few days ago I couldn't believe my ears. When we had the member from Smoky River stand up in his place and say 'the opposition is getting too effective. They are embarrassing the government. What we are going to do is change the rules so they won't be so effective. We'll muzzle the opposition. We'll stop debate. We'll cut down the effectiveness of the opposition, possibly try to do away with the opposition all together.' I don't know what he was getting at. AN HON. MEMBER: In the next election. MR. WYSE: Possibly do what they do over in the communist countries.

But it is hard to believe that a Progressive Conservative member wants to dissolve democracy. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that the hon. member will be smoked out when it comes to the next election.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-999 It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with a government now which in 18 or 19 months has become arrogant and irresponsible. Another example is the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. COOKSON: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would like to have the hon. member table these quotations that he insinuates the hon. Member for Smoky River made. MR. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. There are some rules with regard to tabling documents which are used in speeches, but I am not aware of any that apply to this occasion. MR. WYSE: We have the hon.

Minister of Lands and Forests unresponsive to the wishes of some 500 people from my constituency. He refused to meet with the delegation. Talk about arrogance -- so far as I am concerned -- I wish the minister were here, but I wish he would reconsider the resolution I submitted last year and regain some of the face he has lost in my constituency, and I am sure in his own constituency. Now, Mr. Speaker, in carrying on I would like to mention for a few minutes the new department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs.

He mentioned the other night when he was speaking that the opposition should be more responsible, more positive. But, Mr. Speaker, I have been reading some of the hon. member's old speeches when he was in the opposition. MR. GETTY: Good for you. MR. WYSE: Talk about anything that was not positive. In fact I am not even going to read some of it here this afternoon. There is nothing positive about it at all. But I would like to read for your enjoyment, this afternoon, a part of a speech the hon. Premier made when he was in the opposition.

Again, it is interesting, and humorous -- that's right, it's actually humorous -- to note the changes which have taken place in some of these people who head up the front row over there. I'll quote, I have stated that a Progressive Conservative government would include within its Executive Council, as a second minister, a minister responsible day to day giving his full attention to the matter of our relationship with the federal government in the federal state. He would not need, Mr. Speaker, now listen to this, a large department.

It could be tight and effective... and I think we heard the other night, when we were going through the hon. minister's department, that he has a budget of one-half million dollars. He has 31 people already employed for a start, and we're not even sure what he's doing, if he is doing anything. And then the hon. Premier -- the hon. Opposition Leader then, Mr. Speaker -- tied a further step to that, a Progressive Conservative government would take an Ottawa office, take an office of the Alberta government at Ottawa and truly make it a nerve centre -- make it hum. Well again, Mr.

Speaker, we brought this up to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. We noticed that instead of having three members now, we now have two, the budget is cut considerably, and possibly next year they may even do away with the office -- who knows? But this is some of the inconsistency that we have now in the government of Alberta. Now, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to comment briefly on the two-price system for natural gas. I think most Albertans will agree that we should be getting more, or as much as possible from our depleting resources, but I think this plan does not go far enough.

It's fine to say that we'll rebate or subsidize the natural gas users, but why not subsidize the propane users? How about all the fuel oil that is being used? And what about our car gas that is continually rising? What about a subsidy there? I think, Mr. Speaker, these reserves belong to all of Albertans, and our policy should not be a discriminatory one, but a policy that will, in fact, benefit all of Alberta.

22-950 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 Now, Mr. Speaker, just to sum up, I have listed five points that I would like the government to consider. First, to increase the financial help to people on fixed incomes. I'm thinking of the widows and the pensioners on social development -- the recipients. Reduce the bureaucracy in government. If they did this they would have all kinds of dollars for some of the other programs. Stop the political appointee philosophy. Reconsider increasing the benefits to all Albertans under the resource two-price system.

And lastly, drop the 7.5 limit to municipalities, and stop treating them like children. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister for Northern Affairs, followed by the hon. leader of the Opposition. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS (Cont.) MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I'd like your indulgence to revert to the introduction of guests if I may. It is my pleasure to introduce to you this afternoon, and through you to the members of this Assembly 17 students from the thriving community of Manning. They are from the Rosary School, the Grade 9 class, and they have with them their teacher Mr. Becker, along with drivers Mr. Dechant and Mr.

Dillman, and I would ask them to stand and be recognized. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Cont.) MR. HENDERSON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Member for Lloydminster had been recognized by the Chair and when I saw the Minister Without Portfolio rise I thought it was an open ball game and so I rose as well. So I would yield the Floor to the Member for Lloydminister. MR. J. MILLER: I would like to thank the Leader of the Opposition for allowing me to speak at this time. I would like to say that it gives me great pleasure to join in the budget debate. However, before I do I would like to congratulate you, Mr.

Speaker, for the fair and dignified way in which you grace this Legislature. Indeed, sir, you have shown the wisdom of Solomon, and on occasion, the patience of Job. MR. HENDERSON: And the determination of Albert. [Laughter] MR. J. MILLER: I would also like to congratulate the hon. Mr. Farran, who was recently appointed the Minister of Telephones and Utilities. Mr. Farran is a man of many talents and can be counted on to fill this position in a very fair and just way. I also would congratulate our Minister of Tourism on assuming the duties of Minister of Consumer Affairs.

And I might say that we all feel in this position he will put his best foot forward. The budget presented by the hon. Mr. Miniely is truly a dynamic document and it will serve the people of Alberta extremely well. DR. BUCK: At least for two years. MR. J. MILLER: My only regret is that the hon. member from the constituency of Medicine Hat has not had time to study this document.

March 16, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 22-951 Mr. Speaker, as I review the budget, I am particularly pleased by the agricultural program. This program will be of extremely great benefit to our rural people. The pressures of the family farm have definitely eased. The expansionist policy of the Department of Agriculture in securing new markets for our products has stimulated the agricultural industry. Prices have risen, and farming has never looked better. This government had dedicated itself to the establishment of secondary industries for agricultural products throughout rural Alberta.

In this regard, I was pleased to hear the Minister of Agriculture announce there would be a rapeseed crushing plant at Sexsmith. We see the development of alfalfa processing plants, cubing, pelleting and the production of alfabar, which is a combination of alfalfa and barley, the establishment of cheese factories, the shipping of cryovac packaged beef cuts to Japan by air from Calgary, the export of pork and pork products. The Hog Board is presently looking at forward contracting to stabilize the pork industry. There are substantial shipments of livestock for breeding purposes to foreign countries.

Not only is the quality of our livestock of the highest degree, but our purebred livestock registration and health of animals is well known, appreciated and respected throughout the world. Our cattle can go anywhere. In my own constituency of Lloydminister, we have one of the largest livestock markets in Canada. In fact, we have here an industry that has grown from a very modest $4.5 million business in 1957 to a business that last year grossed $55,845,911. This was from the sale of a 145,000 cattle, nearly 23,000 calves, 51,000 hogs, over 7,000 sheep, and 400 horses. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we find there is over one million dollars worth of livestock being shipped through the Lloydminster market every week. This is truly a tremendous increase in the livestock production in eastern Alberta. We find that butcher cattle are shipped to Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal, Lethbridge, and to parts of the United States. Feeder cattle are shipped locally. They go to Lethbridge, to Central Alberta, to Saskatchewan and Ontario and the United States. This is a tremendous industry that has developed in the last 15 years in eastern Alberta.

In this regard, I am very pleased to mention that an Alberta district agriculturalist will be stationed in Lloydminster this spring for the first time. The need has been there for a number of years, and at last this need is being met. There is one program I would like to mention at this time. It is one that has proven extremely successful and that is the Alberta Government's rat control program. Under this program we have seen Alberta rat-free for the last 22 years when they threatened to invade Alberta.

The pest control program has done a seemingly impossible task of holding the line -- a line that is 380 miles long, stretching from the Montana border right up to Cold Lake. Mr. Speaker, this program has been extremely successful. It has been one of constant vigilance by the pest control officers, combined with an educational program. At this time I would recommend to this government that they meet with the Saskatchewan government people and eradicate rats at the rate of one range per year, moving east from the Alberta-Saskatchewan border.

It is my opinion and that of the pest control officers that it is possible to make Saskatchewan rat-free, using the expertise our people have developed. Eventually the line of resistance, the line which we would hold, could be the Saskatchewan-Manitoba border and even further east than that. I was very pleased with the Alberta Future Farmers program announced by the Minister of Agriculture. I can see that this will be an extension to the 4-H program, and it will encourage our young people to take an active

part in the farming industry. Mr. Chambers, the hon. Member for Edmonton Calder, had a sheep program when he was a youth. With this program, as a youth, he was able to save enough money to finance his first two years of education at university. I like the way this is set up, so children will have a cash analysis and be able to keep books to show farm management. I would encourage the youth groups in the cities of Edmonton and Calgary to think of a project whereby they could rent land outside of the city and establish garden plots so they could have fresh vegetables for the family and also for sale.

These are projects that would be extremely useful, and they are something for our young people in the cities to certainly consider. In this regard I was reading an

article where one youth group decided they would raise flowers. They had a cut flower program whereby they sold flowers throughout the cities. These are all projects which can be considered for the youth of Alberta.

22-952 ALBERTA HANSARD March 16, 1973 I was glad to hear that the supply of fertilizer in Alberta will be adequate, even though larger amounts will be used to increase our crop production. Farmers this year will be using more fertilizer to increase their yields, because they know that the markets are here and that their products can be sold. The family farm vacation idea, as proposed and promoted by the hon. Minister of Tourism, is one other way in which we can find diversification for the farm industry.

In this regard, our Minister of Agriculture has promoted an Agricultural Week in October, and he has suggested that this would be an ideal time for an exchange program between the city and the farm young people. In this way each would become aware of the other's way of life. The Department of Agriculture is constantly locking for new crops to produce in Alberta. I was especially intrigued by the crop, Tata beans, more commonly called horse beans. These were grown in Manitoba last year, and as I read here, they are one of the oldest cultivated crops. They have a high protein of 25 per cent to 30 per cent.

They have a one to one and one half per cent oil content, and they can he grown, harvested and fed with conventional equipment. This is one product and one crop that we are looking at so there will be further diversification of the farming industry. We are pleased with the property tax reduction plan in the rural areas. I will bring to the attention of the Legislature that this will be a saving of $12 to $15 million to the farmers of Alberta.

This government has paid more than just lip service to the lowering of property tax this action and it is appreciated by everyone in the rural areas, particularly those in the smaller farming enterprises. Our government, in its concern for handicapped people and those less fortunate than ourselves, has established workshops throughout Alberta and I am pleased to report that one was completed in my constituency of Lloydminster last year. It is now in operation and a proposed dormitory residence will be built for those students living outside of the city.

The upgrading of the highway and grid-road system throughout Alberta has seen the road between Kitscoty and Marwayne paved. When the grid-road between these two villages was officially opened last summer by the Highways Minister, the hon. Mr. Copithorne, a banquet was held in the village of Marwayne and this was truly a community affair. The Chamber of Commerce organized it, they asked people in the surrounding area to donate food and the Hutterian Brethren when asked, supplied all the potatoes for the banquet.

I am also pleased to have had an extension of the pavement of Highway 17 to link up with the Highway 14 east of Wainwright and this road will certainly aid those people wishing to market their livestock in the Lloydminster market. I was very pleased to hear that Highway 16 west of Vegreville will be upgraded this year by a widening and shoulder-building program. The oiling and dust control program of Highway 45 from Myrnam to the Saskatchewan border is certainly welcome and we are locking forward to the time when this highway also will be paved.

The offer to participate in building a bridge across the North Saskatchewan River on the 4th Meridian is certainly welcome. It is hoped that the Saskatchewan Government, along with the federal government, will see fit to cooperate in this joint venture as it will open a vast area across the North Saskatchewan River in eastern Alberta. Our Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation has modified his regulations regarding recreational grants and this will enable local recreation groups to determine for themselves how they want to spend their yearly operational grants. This is very impor