Manitoba Hansard — 19 January 1990 (Sitting 107, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-107

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, January 19, 1990. The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the pet ition and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the Rules . Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? "To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba " The petition of the undersigned Roman Catholic Archiepiscopal Corporation of Winnipeg, humbly sheweth : "THAT

an Act respecting the Roman Catholic Archiepiscopa l Corporation of Winnipeg and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Winnipeg, being Cap .109 Statutes of Manitoba, assented to on March 9, 1917 , be amended by repealing paragraph 1 thereof and substituting therefor the following: " 1.

The Most Reverend Archbishop of Winnipeg , the Senior Vicar -Ge neral and three (3) members of the Roman Catholic denomination selected and designated by the said Archbishop, and the successors of the said five (5) persons , are hereby incorporated under the name of the "Roman Catholic Archiepiscopal Co rp oration of Winnipeg," hereinafter called the "Archiep isco pal corporatio n," for the purposes of administering the property, business and other temporal affairs of the said archdiocese. "WHER EFORE your petitioner humbly prays that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to pass

an Act for the purposes above men ti oned . " And as in duty bound your petitioner will ever pray." INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions , may I direct the Honourable Members' attention to the gallery , where we have from the Keewatin Community College 16 students . They are under the direction of Mr. Warren Wayne. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) . On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Village at Portage Place Mortgage Advance Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme). Clause 30 in the mortgage agreement between the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and the Village at Portage Place says that the last 25 percent of the mortgage, or $4,625,000, should only be advanced if MHRC is satisfied that the complex generates sufficient rental income to fully offset expenses for at least one year. When did the Minister of Housing advance the final 25 percent of his mortgage to the Village at Portage Place? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker , first of all I will take that quest ion as notice of when the advancement went through, but I have to answer that this particular agreement, drawn up in 1986 with the previous administration, I have expressed for the last week and a half is to protect that particular mortgage. CMHC is reviewing, they are our insurer, and that agreement was drawn up between the previous administration and the City of Winnipeg . As a matter of fact, I was surprised that the Member across the way has not looked at the Member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Angus) , who was deputy mayor of the City of Winnipeg when that particular agreement was drawn up. Mr. Speaker , let us not point to any people in this House . I will take that question and get back to him with that information . Financial Instability Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): I have a supplementary question to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme). Given the requirement that MHRC be satisfied that the income generated by Village at Portage Place was going to meet all of the costs required, when did the Minister first learn of the financial instability of the Village at Portage Place? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker , first of all we learned of it in May of this year, and the first instruction of this Minister was under the cond itions - remember we have an insurance policy, it is like an insurance policy. We follow the conditions of CMHC . We follow those conditions and we protect our investment. That is what we have done. Mortgage Default Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): That remains to be seen. When did the developer, the Village at Portage Place , actually formally default on its mortgage payments to the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, they formally defaulted early this spring as I mentioned . The instructions were of CMHC that we not proceed with that mortgage sale. They would protect our investment , and that is exactly what we did . * (1005) 4487

Friday, January 19, 1990 Vacancy Rate Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With another question to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme), and we now know that the date that he puts on the record as the date that funds were advanced to the Village at Portage Place is very important, because if it is inside of a year of the formal default, then the Minister spent more that $4 million of the taxpayers' money that he did not have to, Mr. Speaker. We will be looking very carefully to when he makes that information public.

The agre".<nent also says that the leasing arrangements are to be judged on their retail value, and that any discounted rents were to be taken into consideration in determining the stability of the project. What was the vacancy rate at the time the Minister advanced the final $4.625 million to the Village at Portage Place? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): First of all, I told the Member I would take that question as notice of when the mortgages were forwarded. At the time when we became aware, the vacancy rates were 20 percent. At that time we were guaranteed from CMHC that we follow those conditions.

I still, to this day, know that our protection of the $18 .5 million is protected. Leasing Arrangements Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Did the Minister's staff investigate the leasing arrangements at the Village at Portage Place to be perfectly sure that there were no discounted leasing arrangements which could have coloured the Minister's decision to advance the final $4.625 million to Village at Portage Place? Hon . Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, first of all I have to keep mentioning to the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr.

Carr) that the conditions set aside are the condition arrangements between MHRC and CMHC. CMHC is our insurer . CMHC has certain conditions. We have on record from CMHC that they would like the postponement of the sale agreement to be postponed. They would take the responsibility and guarantee our $18 .5 million. North Portage Development Corp. Board of Directors Meeting Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a final question to the Minist er.

We were encouraged the other day to hear the Minister say that he was in favour of requesting the other partners of the tripartite corporations to ask the chief executive officer of the North Porta ge Development Corporation to appear in front of a legislative committee. Can the Minister tell the House when he expects an answer from the North Portage Development Corporation, and when legislators in this House can prepare questions to the North Portage Development Corporation? Hon .

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Unlike probably the previous administration, unlike the Members of his caucus that were privy to this agreement, we have nothing to hide, and we will do everything we can to show the public. We were not part of that agreement, Mr. Speaker. This Government was not responsible for that agreement. I have expressed concern on this floor, time and time again, that we will prevent any future losses of the taxpayers' money. We have done that. There are other ways-and I cannot unilaterally change. That agreement was drawn up by the previous Liberal federal Government.

I cannot change that. The shareholders ! said I would discuss it with the shareholders. If they do not agree with that, I will somehow, some way, bring forward that information to make sure I have expressed all concerns about this agreement. Free Trade Agreement Vear-End Analysis Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Today the federal Minister of International Trade has reported in Ottawa on the alleged benefits of the Free Trade Agreement in its first year in Canada. We have a large discrepancy in terms of success and failure of the Free Trade Agreement in this country.

The Council of Canadians are claiming-and 10 0,000 jobs have been lost in Canada. Of course John Crosbie today, who did not read the Free Trade Agreement before it was passed, has claimed that 19 3,000 new jobs, net jobs, in Canada have been created. My question is to our Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst). Has the provincial Government conducted an independent study of the benefits and losses of free trade in Manitoba, and can he produce that study for this Chamber and for Manitobans in terms of the experience we have had in the first year of the Free Trade Agreement with the United States?

Hon . Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Firstly, let me say that when the Free Trade Agreement came into force a little over a year ago, average tariffs dropped by about 1 percent on the 25 percent of goods transferring across the border that had some tariff attached to them, 1 percent drop. The change in the value of the Canadian dollar, for every cent that the value of the Canadian dollar changes, Canadian versus American, it changes the relative percentage value of goods by 1. 2 percent. What has happened, Mr.

Speaker, we have a 1 percent change in tariff reduction, but we have had about an 11 percent change in the value of the Canadian dollar. Despite all of that, still we maintain a relatively high value of trade surplus with the United States and in fact we have had 10 5 percent increase in manufacturing investment in the Province of Manitoba. • (10 10 ) Impact Food Processing Industry Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): We were averaging about 16 percent increase in manufacturing per year in the mid-80s. My question- 4488

Friday, January 19, 1990 there has been a number of plants that have closed in Manitoba and there is about 10 ,0 00 fewer full-time jobs in this province. I would agree that the high interest rates and the high dollar policy is insane, but we also believe that the Free Trade Agreement has not had a net benefit on Manitobans and that is why we are awaiting an independent study of the results in this province, so we can start making some informed decisions in this somewhat emotional debate, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (M r.

Ernst), and deals with other sectors in our economy . Food processing executives have stated clearly that they are going to totally rationalize their operations in light of the Free Trade Agreement. We have seen what has happened at Ogilvie in Manitoba. We have seen what has happened at Campbell Soup in Portage la Prairie.

I would ask the Minister responsible for Trade whether there will be any more negative impact of the Free Trade Agreement on workers and their families in the food processing industry, and have we benefited in the food processing industry under free trade or have we lost under the food processing industry in Manitoba under the Free Trade Agreement? Hon . Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the Member refers to the mid-'80s when the dollar was down around 72 cents. That is a dramatic difference from 86 cents today. Mr.

Speaker, in terms of the food processing industry, and I appreciate that the Member for Concordia (M r. Doer) wants to attribute every business loss in the Province of Manitoba, in which losses have occurred, gained and lost, over a long period of time, he wants to attribute every one of those to free trade. Let me say that he is wrong. By and large, those industries that have had some rationalization of their operations, we have had extensive discussions with them and we have not been able to attribute, either the business themselves or ourselves, anything relating to fre e trade to those losses. Mr.

Doer: It is cold comfort for the workers and their families who are negatively affected. Impact Furniture Industry Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (M r. Ernst), dealing with the furniture manufacturing sector. In the first six months of 19 89, Mr. Speaker, imports from the United States in furniture to western Canada have increased by $7 1 million, and the exports have decreased from $14 8 million down to $82 million. We still maintain a surplus with the United States in western Canada, but that is dwindling every month.

Has the Minister done any impact study on the first year of the Free Trade Agreement dealing with the hundreds and thousands of jobs in the manufacturing sector of furniture in Manitoba, and what are the prospects for the future in 19 90 in terms of that vital industry for Manitoba families? Hon . Jim Ern st (Mini ster of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, firstly let me say that a company like Palliser Furniture, the largest furniture manufacturer in western Canada, has in fact expended about $1. 6 million in expanding their plant in order to take advantage of the Free Trade Agreement.

They have in fact employed an additional 200 and some odd, the exact number escapes me, additional employees in order to meet that demand. Mr. DeFehr, the principal of that company, has indicated publicly on a number of occasions he is very bullish about the kind of opportunities there are under free trade. Mr. Speaker, let me say with regard to the question of whether we should be doing impact studies, and try to conjecture what would happen in the future. The Free Trade Agreement is a fact, whether the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) wants to believe that or not.

What we are doing, in focusing our objectives within my department, is trying to encourage Manitobans to take advantage of those opportunities. We are trying to assist businesses to make sure that they are ready to take advantage of free trade. * (1015 ) Mr. Doer: I am not asking for conjecture, I am asking for analysis and I am asking for anticipation for the Manitoba economy and Manitoba families. Free Trade Agreement Gasoline Exports Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): I have a final question to either the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Ernst) or the Minister responsible for Energy (M r. Neufeld). In the first year of the Free Trade Agreement, the National Energy Board has approved applications for three major gas companies which export gas reserves from the Mackenzie Delta to United States. This obviously will have an impact on our Canadian energy market. I would ask the Minister whether there has been any analysis on the effect of our supply of natural gas over the next number of years, even though we have an abundant supply?

Secondly, what effect will that have in terms of price to the Manitoba consumer now that we are having a free trade environment in terms of our vital energy resources, and particularly with massive sales to American gas distributors under the Free Trade Agreement? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, as the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) well knows, we have an agreement with TransCanada Pipeline for the delivery of natural gas to Manitoba for the next number of years.

The prices have been set for several years and the price for the following years have been set equal to that which will be received by Ontario, a very large consumer . We are confident that the Manitoba consumer is well protected from go uging, as the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) seems to suggest. 4489

Friday, January 19, 1990 Workplace Safety and Health Oil Burner Installation Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon) -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for St. James has the floor. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, we have seen the willingness of this Government to reduce Workplace Safety and Health standards in this province against the interests of Manitoba workers. Now, regrettably, we have learned of yet another reduction of Workplace Safety and Health standards.

By Or der-in-Council, signed by the Minister of Workplace Safety and Health (Mrs. Hammond), the gas and oil burner regulations have been amended to allow the Minister to issue a licence to a person to install, service or repair any class of oil burning equipment without first requiring that person to pass an examination set by a board. Mr. Speaker , the Government has given itself the right to license less qualified people to install and work on oil burners. Why? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier}: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond). Standards Reduction Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, with a supplementary question. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, after an explosion in St. Boniface, in which the company was breaching the fire code, a blocked chimney on College Avenue, which killed a man, and it had supposedly been checked by department officials, we now learn that there is a loosening of the oil and burner regulations. Why is this Government going in exactly the opposite direction of the rest of the industrial world and insisting on regularly reducing Workplace Safety and Health standards? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speak er, this Government has consistently indicated that it will do everything possible to protect the interests of workers, to protect their safety and their health by regulation in this province. We will continue to ensure that in all cases, subject to the advice of the workers, their representatives on committees, we will be looking at all possible regulations and legislation to protect the health and safety of the workers of this province. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Edwards: Actions speak louder than words.

This Order-incCouncil was never reviewed by that committee. Power Engineers Act Amendments Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, finally for the Premier (Mr. Filmon), can the Premier explain the rationale for his Government? We have learned that his Government is apparently right now considering further reductions of standards under The Power Engineers Act, which would require power plants to be checked only every 24 hours, rather than every 10 hours, by a qualified person under The Power Engineers Act. * (10 20) Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we will continue to consult with those people who work in the industry, the qualified workers, labour representatives and people who are having to apply these standards, having to apply these practices, day in and day out. Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) mutters along all the time attempting to -(interjection) muddles and mutters along, I might say, Mr. Speaker, attempting to respond and argue in the Legislature. He does not want to hear the answer to the question.

All he wants to do is try and make cheap political hay every day in this Legislature, and he fails, and he fails every time. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, on a point of order. Mr. Edwards: I take great exception to the insinuation of motive put forward by the Premier (Mr. Filmon), that I frivolously bring issues to this House for the wrong motives. Every issue I have ever brought has been documented- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please. The Honourable Member did not have a point of order. Child and Family Services Agency Deficits Ms .

Avis Gray (Ellice): Child and Family Services agencies are facing deficits in their budgets, and in fact agencies who have before brought in balanced budgets are this year in a deficit position. After 40 minutes of the questioning yesterday in the Estimates process, the Minister was unable to provide an analysis of why these agencies, those who before have brought in balanced budgets, find themselves in deficit positions. My question to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Oleson) is, after a year and a half, how does this Minister expect to negotiate and solve the funding problems of these agencies when to this date the Minister is unable to even articulate the reasons why these deficits exist and are growing? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we had, as the Member indicates, a long 4490 -

Friday, January 19, 1990 discussion over this matter yesterday, and I indicated to her several reasons that attributed to deficit problems. I also indicated to her that my department is working on this problem with the hopes to resolve it. Ms . Gray: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) indicate how she expects to work with the agencies and negotiate when her Government does not even know the reasons why these deficits exist, and according to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), from his seat, he has also indicated that it should be Child and Family Services agencies that have the reasons?

Is it not incumbent upon the Minister and her department to have some analysis of why these deficits are there and are continuing to grow? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated to the Member and to this House several times that the department is receiving information from those agencies, is working closely with them to resolve their problem. I also indicated, and I will indicate again today, that there is responsibility on the part of the agencies to help manage their affairs as well as a responsibility of the Government to assist them. Child and Family Services Administration Ms.

Avis Gray (Ellice): I have a final supplementary to the same Minister. Does the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) support the Minister of Finance's (Mr. Manness) stance that funding problems to these agencies would be alleviated if the executive directors were accountants, and if so what would be the impact on child protection services? Non . Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I challenge the Member to stand in her place and indicate for the record when I said these people should be accountants. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ellice, on a point of order. * (10 25) Ms .

Gray: On a point of order, if the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) was listening, I did not say that he had put that information on the record in this House. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; ord er, please. The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, then I think I have the point of order, and I ask the Member to withdraw, very liberally I might add. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ellice, on the same point of order. 4491 Ms .

Gray: On the same point of order, that information did occur at a meeting with school superintendents. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised, it is quite clearly a dispute over the facts. Free Trade Agreement Impact Manufacturing Jobs Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Brandon East .- (i nterjection)- Order , please. Ord er. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry and Trade (Mr. Ernst).

A major U.S. magazine, Business Week, reported a few months ago that Canadian manufacturing companies are pulling up stakes and are moving south in droves to the United States because of the Free Trade Agreement. This is according to Business Week. Manitoba has lost Toro Canada. They have pulled up stakes and moved to Minnesota, Marr's Leisure Products pulled up stakes from Brandon and moved to North Carolina. Mr. Speaker, according to the latest information from Statistics Canada Manitoba had 3,000 fewer jobs in November of 19 89 compared to last year.

If the Minister of Industry does not attribute this reduction of 3,000 manufacturing jobs to the Free well if the Minister would-if the Premier- Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Brandon East kindly put his question now, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: If the Minister of Industry does not wish to attribute this reduction of 3,000 manufacturing jobs to the Free Trade Agreement, does he attribute it to the weakening of the Manitoba economy? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Trade. -(interjection)- Order, please. Hon . Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) sat up here and was quoting vehemently from unpublished information from the Toronto Dominion Bank. He is obviously an insider with respect to the Toronto Dominion- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Minister. Mr. Ernst: Presumably, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) is in close association with that large national bank. Today, we have the Royal Bank indicating in The Globe and Mail that there has been not any dramatic problems in the Canadian economy as a result of free trade. The

Friday, January 19, 1990 agreement· is for an investment, both foreign and domestic , in Canada , and we have seen that in Manito ba, Mr. Speaker- 10 5 percent increase in manufacturing investment. Firms are merging and making changes to take advantage of the deal, and we have seen that in Manitoba as well. * (1 030) Mr. Leonard Evans: The facts are, Mr. Speaker, we have 3,000 fewer people working in manufacturing than last year. Springhill Farms Limited Status Report Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, the United States has slapped a very hefty duty on pork and could destroy as many as 30,000 jobs in Canada. I would like to ask the Minister of Industry (Mr. Ernst) a question regarding the current status of the Springhill plant in Neepawa, which processes pork. We know it has been in trouble. Although we know it is operating on a temporary ad hoe basis, could the Minister give us an update on the current status of that plant in Neepawa? Hon . Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the Springhill plant is operating at the present time.

It will continue to operate well into Februa ry. In the interim, the owners of the plant have employed a consultant with the assistance of the Government to attempt to determine some other methods of dealing with that plant and continuing its operation for the future. That is under way at the present time. I do not wish to comment further without jeopardizing certain activities going on. Sewage Treatment Plant -Brandon Federal Funding Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Brandon East, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, have a separate question for the Minister of Industry (Mr. Ernst) who has been, I know, negotiating a federal provincial agreement on water and sewer financing for Manitoba municipalities. As he knows, the City of Brandon is facing a very serious financial problem with respect to constructing a new sewage facility . Can the Minister advise us whether any assistance will be forthcoming under a federal-provincial agreement, and if so, when- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon . Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Spea ker, it is well known to my honourable friend from Brandon East, because he asked the same question in Estimates yesterday, and I gave him the answer that I will give him again right now. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Ernst: As I indicated to my honourable friend yesterday in Estimates when asked the same question, we are in the process of negotiating agreements with the federal Government on a variety of issues related to economic development, the potential for Manitoba.

We are we believe reasonably close to fruition with respect to those agreements and we anticipate an announcement in the very near future. Native Women Abuse Statistics Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I think all of us were horrified when we saw and read yesterday of the report of Ontario Native women, with the incidence of high abuse, both sexual and physical, that is committed against them. The national average would appear from those studies to indicate that eight times as many Native women are subject to abuse as are white women. Can the Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Oleson) indicate to the House today if her department believes that is an equivalent statistic to what is happening in the Province of Manitoba? Hon . Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): I would have to read the report which of course I have not had the opportunity to do yet, and I am anxious to read that report. The Member will recall that our department has done a considerable amount of work this year in the line of shelters, both Osborne House and the recently opened lkwe shelter for abused Native women.

Also with regard to that, we have funded two crisis lines, one for the Winnipeg area for Osborne House and one run out of the lkwe establishment for the province, so we are doing all we can to alleviate this very, very serious problem. We hope that this 47 percent increase that we have been able to give to that area of the department this year will go a long way to help that situation. Native Women Abuse Education Programs Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Lead er of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the appearance of a Native women's shelter is an excellent move on behalf of the Government.

However, that only deals with the woman in crisis; it does not change a pattern of behaviour . Can the Minister of Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) tell this House what new educational initiatives have been promoted and conducted by his department which will change the cycle of abuse for Native women and children in the Province of Manitoba? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, let me first of all say that it is a tragedy when any group in society have to face the kind of statistics and the kind of difficulties that are pointed out, as the Member refers.

Let me say that this Government is extremely concerned about all or any individuals. 4492

Friday, January 19, 1990 Let me say very clearly that we as a Government, the Premier (Mr. Filmon), my colleagues, for the first time have funded two Native women's organizations, last year some $70,000 to the indigenous women of Manitoba, so that they have a voice, so that they can come forward and put their ideas and their concerns to the general public through Government, the first time that they have received funding. We have as well recently initiated some support to the aboriginal women of Manitoba, the same level of which we gave the indigenous women the first year of our office.

I am pleased to be able to say that there is progress in that area, Mr. Speaker. Urban Native Strategy Native Women Abuse Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Can the Minister of Native Affairs tell us what part abuse will play in his Native Urban Strategy so that we can change these statistics once and for all? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, let me further add that this Government committed to an Urban Native Strategy with several-I think something like $200,000 to bring together the leadership of the different communities of which the women are a major part of that. We are now currently working to develop an ongoing council which will in fact further profile the concerns of the Native people in urban settings where in fact a lot of these difficulties take place through frustrations and many other activities.

I say we are committed, we have a process that is currently taking action, and I will be advancing as many ideas as possible to correct the difficulties that they are facing. Older Workers Labour Adjustment Agreement Mr . Jay Cowan (Churchill): Late last year , on December 6 to be exact, Cabinet authorized the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) to sign an agreement with the federal Government to help older workers adjust to major layoffs and plant closures. My question is to the Premier because he was signatory to that Order-in-Council.

That agreement has been designed to allow laid-off older workers, and I quote from the agreement: to continue to make a contribution to the national economy and their communities. As we all know, there are many older workers affected by the closure of LynnGold. They have little prospect of re-employment, they are suffering severe economic, psychological hardship. My question is, since the authorization to sign six weeks ago, has the Government signed that agreement with the federal Government? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, firstly I might say that we were very pleased to authorize the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) to enter into such an agreement. This is a matter that has been before the provincial Government I believe dating back as far as 19 86.

I be lieve the former administration was in discussion, and we were very disappointed that they were not able to achieve this sort of agreement, to help laid-off workers as in the circumstances that they faced when, under the former administration, Canada Packers closed down and almost 900 people were thrown out of work, many of them being older workers who had worked for Canada Packers for 25 and 30 years and more. This kind of agreement, Mr.

Speaker, can of course address these long-term issues and can be used in any major layoff or shutdown situation where older workers cannot have the opportunity to respond for re-entry into the workforce. It is the kind of thing that our Government is committed to. We are doing everything possible for the workers at Lynn Lake, because we believe that it is important to offer them a whole range of opportunities , whether that be relocation to new employment opportunities, whether that be retraining or other matters. At this point, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour (Mrs.

Hammond) continues to be in discussion and we are hopeful that the POWA agreement, the Program for Older Worker Adjustment, will indeed be a reality in the very near future. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, there was agreement in principle to sign this agreement when the Government took office -(interjection)-Well, there is a letter from Pierre Cadieux to the Honourable Muriel Smith saying there was agreement in principle to sign the agreement.

It has taken the Government all this time to just come to the point where they have authorization to sign, and yet today we find out that they have not yet signed it, having been given that authorization six weeks ago. I ask the Minister, when is it older workers in this province can expect to see some sign from this Government that this Government cares about them and cares about their plight when they are suffering severe hardship from major layoffs by the signing of this agreement? * (10 40) Mr. Speaker: Order. The question has been put. The Honourable First Minister. Mr.

Filmon: I remind the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) that first , they were unable to achieve agreement and second, when we came into Government we were not satisfied with the percentage of the cost that the Manitoba Government was going to have to bear under the agreement that they were negotiating. We did not think it was a good enough deal for Manitoba. We felt Canada should be picking up a greater percentage of the costs. We believe that we will achieve that by virtue of the negotiations that we have undertaken and will be completing very shortly. Mr. Cowan: Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba's older workers have waited almost two years because this Government was not satisfied with the percentage figure. I would 4493

Friday, January 19, 1990 ask him when they are going to sign an agreement that will allow for older workers in Lynn Lake and other communities across this province, including Winnipeg, to contribute to their society in a meaningful way through a federal-provincial agreement. Can he give us some indication as to when they are going to stop their haggling with the federal Government, get down to work and sign an agreement to benefit older workers? They have waited too long. Mr . Filmon: You know, Mr.

Speaker, the older workers were waiting a couple of years and more under the former administration and got nothing out of it. Second, we could have signed an agreement when we first came into office if we were prepared to accept, as the NOP was, getting only 25 percent of the cost, of course from the federal Government. We were not prepared to accept the deal which they were working on because we did not think it was good enough. We believe that our work has borne fruit. We gave the Minister authorization to enter into that agreement and we believe it will not be long before such an agreement can be announced.

Health Care Community Based Clinics Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, after 20 months the Department of Health should be renamed as the "department of broken promises." Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) should be renamed as the chief of the Health Advisory Network. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell us why he has not provided us with a plan to expand the community care concept in Manitoba, one of the primary methods of providing the most economical and most efficient way of delivering health care, that they promised during the election campaign? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Heal th): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased my honourable friend asked the question because we have done just exactly that. I might remind my honourable friend that approximately 12 months ago he, his Leader, most of his colleagues, the NOP, were all urging a $2.8 million investment in Klinic. Mr. Speaker, as part of the Community Outreach Program, Klinic will have a larger building, more parking, be able to deliver more services and cost the taxpayers substantially less money. That is the direction we are going in community health.

We are not going to open up the blank cheque and the Brink's truck of the Liberal Party; that was the NOP philosop hy. We are prudently spending and delivering more services. Cardiac Care Committee Waiting List Study Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, when health care is rising and the whole of Canada is feeling it and the only way we have of providing the best care is through the community care concept, this Minister thinks that just providing a parking lot is going to provide these services. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) tell us-last fall he promised to establish a cardiac care committee to review the waiting list for cardiac surgery. Can he tell us if he has received the report and if not, why not? Hon . Donald Orchar d (Min ister of Heal th): Mr. Speaker, yes, no, and yes, and let me provide further detail to my honourable friend. It was not last fall that I promised to establish the cardiac care committee, it was in April or May of last year. Mr. Speaker, second, the cardiac care committee, under Dr. Lyonel Israels, has been working with both teaching institutions. I met with Dr. Israels this week.

He has seen significant progress in the issue of open heart surgery at both institutio ns, because in addition to establishing a committee to establish the parameters of the cardiac care program in Manitoba, we have added $600 ,0 00 in additional operating time at St.

Boniface, $1 80,000 additional operating time at the Health Sciences Centre, part of which will go to an increased activity in open heart surgery, so that this year we will do even more open heart surgical procedures than ever before in the history of the Province of Manitoba, which means two years in a row under this administration procedures have gone up. Health Care Obstetrical Services Mr. Guizar Cheema {Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, this Minister also promised to provide us with the reorganization of obstetrical services in Winnipeg hospitals.

For more than 20 months patients are still being transferred out of the St. Boniface Hospital. Can he tell us today whether he has prepared a plan for the reorganization of the obstetrical services in Winnipeg? Hon . Donald Orchar d (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, every issue he has brought up we have offered a solution either through an increased funding, increased direction, increased planning, increased involvement of the community. We have kept all of our promises. Now in terms of obstetrics, yes, there are substantial discussions going on between the Health Sciences Centre, St.

Boniface, Misericordia, Victoria and Grace. Unfortunately, Seven Oaks and Concordia both had their obstetrics closed by the NOP and are not involved in the discussions. In this quarter of this year I believe we will have a report from those experts studying the obstetrical needs in the Province of Manitoba so that we can plan effectively and not ad hocly close Seven Oaks, Concordia, as the NOP did when they were Government. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speak er : I would like to draw Honourable Members' attention to the gallery where we have from the Teulon Collegiate, eighteen Grades 9 to 12 students, 4494 -

Friday, January 19, 1990 and they are under the direction of Mrs. Hoey. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this morning. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr.

Speaker, the events surrounding the development of the nuclear age were portrayed in the American movie, "Fat Man and Little Boy." This movie which recently played in Winnipeg portrayed many aspects of the Manhattan Project including an accident during which one of the scientists was exposed to a fatal dose of nuclear energy. Nine days later at 11 a.m. on Thursday , May 30, 1 946, this scientist died. My reason for bringing this to the attention of Manitobans is that this scientist, although represented in the movie to be an American, was in fact from Winnipeg.

Louis Slotin, who lived on Scotia Avenue at lnkster Boulevard in north-end Winnipeg, completed his initial training at the University of Manitoba and earned his doctorate degree at the University of London. Before World War II he worked at the University of Chicago where he was involved with the pioneer atom smashing cyclotron. Louis Slotin was recruited into the Manhattan Project during World War II and in 19 44 came to Los Alamos, New Mexico. After the war, one of Louis Slotin's jobs was to run final tests on the active core of each previous atomic bomb.

It was during one of these tests that an accident occurred. A blue glow surrounded the assembly and a quick flux of heat was felt by the several people in the room where the test was being conducted. The scientists observing this test and standing near Slotin did not receive the fatal dose absorbed by Louis Slotin as Slotin's body served as a shield. On May 30, 19 46, nine days after this accident, Louis Slotin passed away. I would ask all Members of the Manitoba Legislature to join me in acknowledging the contribution of this north-end Winnipegg er. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon .

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, at this time, as today is a Bill day, I would like to call the Bills in the following order: Bills Nos. 63, 59, 60, 35, 73, 84, 31 and 6. DEBATE ON SECOND RE ADINGS BILL NO. 63-THE CONSUMER PROTECTI ON AMENDMENT ACT

(3) Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr . Connery), Bill No. 63, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (3); Loi no 3 modifiant la

Loi sur la protection du consommateur, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), the Honourable Member for Elmwood. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minist er, that we pass this Bill to committee. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Is there leave that this matter would remain standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton)? The Honourable Member for Elmwood. Mr. Maloway: No, there was agreement that it be passed to committee. Mr. Speaker: Okay. There is no leave? * (1 050) An Honourable Member: I will deny leave. Mr.

Speaker: Leave has already been denied by the House. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 59-THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), Bill No. 59, The Public Schools Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiques, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko). Stand. Is there leave? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs . Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today and put a few words on the record about the proposed Bill, Bill No. 59. I must say that I think it is about time The Public Schools Act was addressed and opened, and once that is done of course there is the opportunity to look at the clauses that are presented.

We have in our caucus for the past year and three quarters been looking at several other provinces, and The Public Schools Act that are found in a lot of the other provinces. One that comes to mind of course is British Columbia, which has made major changes. Some of them we look at very favourably and others in our caucus feel that perhaps they have gone a little bit too far. There are some major changes that are a little bit overboard in our opinion. Our particula r Public Schools Act in Manitoba in our opinion is a very outdated document.

There are many people around the province who are saying in fact that the education system in Manitoba to a great extent is failing our children. I do not like the doom and gloom concept. I think that when we talk to the young people in many corners of our province, we can see that there 4495

Friday, January 19, 1990 are some very outstanding individuals. I look to the Pages that we have in this very Assembly, and I think how very, very fortunate we are and what a tremendous example these young men and women are, and what a future we have and they have. I am glad that in my senior years I will be putting myself in their capable hands. {Mr. Neil Gaudry, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Unfortunately, this is not the case with all the students. think the fact that there is no beginning mission statement, there is no definite-few lines of outline of what this Act is all about. What is the goal?

What is the aim? I believe there could be more fine tuning of this particular Act to a much greater level. I think in some cases that redundancies in the Act could be removed. An example would be where there is proposed modification. Really what it is, is fine tuning, of changing a "may" to "shall" or a "shall" to a "may." In

Section 16 (1) , I believe it is, the same thing as later on mentioned under

Section 28 in The Public Schools Act. Wh y do we have these repetitions? It makes a larger document, but is larger always better? Certainly that is not true. I think that there could be a great deal more in the way of revamping this. I think one of my greatest concerns, and I feel one of the greatest injustices that is continuing to occur across our province, continuing to be a very destructive force and a very sensitive area, is the area where a teacher has been charged with sexual abuse. This is occurring with greater and greater frequency.

Initially when a child, often in a very timid way, went to someone in authority, perhaps a counsellor or an entrusted teacher, and made the accusation in the past, a few years ago, what they were finding was that these accusations proved to be true. Certainly our main concern is for the protection of the young people in our province. I would not certainly deny that. I feel that we must not do anything to make it even more difficult for these very unfortunate children.

When there is a person entrusted to the care of these children, as teachers are, and what a very , very important position they are in to have a classroom of 15 , 20, 30, 35 young people, it is very important that the teacher treats the child with respect and is the perfect model for the child. What a responsibility for the teacher! What we are finding-and I blame it on the media, the multitude of manipulative processes that our society is allowing our children to be exposed to.

Some of these unfortunate youngsters, and I think perhaps it is the kids who maybe come from homes where the loving, caring attitude is not there, have found that here is an opportunity for revenge, for game-playing, for a little testing process. Sometimes it is not just one child, it will be a group of kids who get together and plan this attack on a non favoured teacher, or a teacher who has chosen to give a failing mark to one of the students.

The student may be one of the ringleaders in the group, and I believe without really understanding the ramifications of their actions, go to somebody and accuse the teacher of sexual abuse. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) What has happened to families in Manitoba, many families in Manitoba, is that there has been total destruction of these families.

I know that the Minister believes that The Public Schools Amendments Act is going to address this situation and perhaps there will be some addressing, but what about those teachers who were charged in 19 88 or 19 89, whose teaching certificates have been removed and have not been reinstated. There are some of those still. There has been no conviction, no actual conviction. There have been charges and the charges for the most part have flip-flopped or whiffle-waffled, or whatever the terms are that we are using in the House today.

Those teachers, even when reinstated, even when having their certificates removed or replaced, are finding that their lives have been destroyed and the lives of their wives and their children. I suggest that there has been no intervention by this Minister, because he is afraid if he intervenes he is stepping in and ruining the autonomy of the school divisions. I suggest that is a cop-out.

Oh, yes, in one situation I recall hearing that the teacher's certificate was reinstated on December 21, so when school resumed the 1s t of January, this teacher now has his certificate reinstated although it has been removed since last May or June. Therefore he has been out of the payroll since last May or June, but now he has his certificate back. What about the salary from last May or June to January? What about back pay for this person? What happens there?

When the superintendent phones and says, okay, come and see about your assignment-not your teaching position but your assignment-that same superintendent is the one who actually placed the charges against the teacher. How on earth-who in their right mind could believe that teacher could go back to that particular school division and perform his duties effectively? How could this occur? A little empathy would not hurt.

Maybe I should spell out the meaning of the word "empathy" in case there is not understanding. * (1 10 0) How could that teacher be expected to go and stand in front of a classroom in a smaller community knowing full well the students in that community all know this person has been unemployed, has been waiting for court hearings, has been waiting to be charged, when the superintendent and the school counsellor are the ones who have laid the charges, and the charges have been now dropped?

What intervention methods are mentioned in this Public Schools Act amendment to assist a teacher to relocate in another, perhaps close by, school division without danger of losing continuous service record? Wh at interventions will this Minister have with encouraging another school division to find a suitable place of employment for a teacher who has been out 4496

Friday, January 19, 1990 of work and who has found himself with a fairly high level of debt to care for? What about the teacher who is in Winnipeg 1, let us say, the largest school division in the province with some 33, 000 students in it, and the charges have been proved to be absolutely erroneous, no basis whatsoever , no basis in fact at all, no court hearing ever occurs. An Honourable Member: They have been branded. Mrs . Yeo: They have been branded, my colleague from Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) says, and I add, for life.

But the certificate is replaced and the teacher is given an assignment, albeit in another school, and that teacher hears students saying things like: Ah, ah, ah, no touchy, hands off, and the teacher cannot continue teaching. That teacher cannot effectively stand in front of that classroom because he already has gone through a very demoralizing destructive process.

I ask, where in this amendment are these issues addressed and what can be done, what actions will this Minister look at that will assist these people in becoming suitably employable and continuing with their lives as they did before these charges were laid? I am very concerned with that situation. As I said, our first concern is with the children, with the student, because yes, there are some who have been abused physically , emotional ly, sexually.

We have just recently heard about a student in a school, and because it is not paid for by the taxpayers of Manitoba there is nothing that the Department of Education can do to assist that student, despite the fact that the Minister has stated, and I believe it is written in a few places, that all children in Manitoba-and yes, I can find that are important to him. So I think there can be something that is done, and I do not say regulation, because four times in this amendment the word "regulations" are used, and we all know that regulations can be changed. What are these regulations? I have not seen them yet.

Oh, I have been promised, but I have not seen regulations spelled out. I do not know what regulations the Minister is going to present. The other area where the word "regulations" is mentioned is when there is discussion about the need for, and I could not say it louder, the accountability of the independent schools, and certainly we believe very strongly that all schools in Manitoba must provide annual audited statements using the Frame method, as do the public schools right now.

There is a method of looking at the budgets and presenting statements and we believe that the independent schools must show in fact what they are doing, how they are using the taxpayers' dollars? I have been in discussion with some people from independent schools, with some parents whose children are attending independent schools, and the parents of the children have no idea how this money is being spent.

They do not have a statement, not from all independent schools, not by a long shot, and I believe there are many independent schools in the province who would have no difficulty agreeing with the provision 4497 of an audited statement, because they have auditors come in every year and they are accountable to the parents of their school community. Although I have never had a child attending an independent school, I am giving a fair bit of my tax dollar to the independent schools and I believe I should be able to, as a taxpayer, look at the financial statements even though my children are not involved.

What about the individual who says: "Well, my wife was a teacher. She has a teaching certificate, but she has been at home looking after the children. I think maybe now is the time for us to open up a school in our basement. We will just apply and get help from the Government, have X number of students and charge them whatever for tuition." The unfortunate thing is that because there are a lot of people out there in our province who are upset with many aspects of the current education system-there are people who are looking for more discipline.

That is one of the things I hear, there is not enough discipline in the schools. I do not mean slapping a child around. You know, there are many systems that work. I also believe that it is the parents' main responsibility. I really believe that is one of the unfortunate things that is occurring, is that in some cases the parents are abrogating the responsibility and are saying, it is all the fault of the schools. I do not agree with that at all. We have to be careful that we do not point a finger at the school system.

I said at the beginning I believe basically that the schools are producing some fine products, some fine graduates. Because there are people who are upset with the level of education some of these basement schools are looking rather promising to some parents. I would like to see the regulations that the Minister is planning to put forward. I would like to see them a little more forcibly legislated, not just under the banner or the word, one word, regulations.

I have no difficulty with the typos that are changed in The Public Schools Act or the "mays" to "shalls ", but I do have difficulty with the word "regulation" in such a broad, broad way. In some of the areas in The Public Schools Act the word "teachers" is used, for instance a teacher who wishes to seek nomination as a candidate for an election. What about the other employees in the school division? What about the secretaries, the teachers' aides, et cetera?

I look to Sturgeon Creek and I wondered if the word "teacher" might also include the word "principal" in that I know there is a principal who lives in Sturgeon Creek who is rath er active in the Progressive Conservative Party and probably would not mind challenging the current Member for Sturgeon Creek in the next provincial election. So perhaps the words "t eacher " and "p rincipal " could be used interchangeably where that situation occurs. We have in this House many teachers on all sides, and I know what happens to their continuous years of service. I know the way the current Act is written, and

Friday, January 19, 1990 I would just like to put it on the record that I have some concern with the pensionability with the TR AF for the teachers who may be in this House, as I know my colleagues who are teachers will be for a number of years. I think that I would like to see that addressed so that the teachers would not lose their ability to continue with their pensions. * (1 1 10 ) In the preliminary draft of Bill No. 59, home schooling was mentioned far more emphatically than it is in the final draft.

Again, because of a lot of people's rather tragic dissatisfaction with the school system in Manitoba, with the public school system in particular, there are more and more parents choosing to keep their children at home and to utilize the curricula provided by the Department of Education to teach their children around the kitchen table. Some of it is for religious reasons. Some of it is because the parents want to instill their own beliefs more emphatically in their children.

So these are not the parents who are saying it is the fault of the school and will keep blaming the school, but we will keep sending our children to the school and we will be out doing whatever; there are a few of those around. These are parents who are often very sincere and many times very, very upset with the school division in which they reside.

If that is the case, how can we expect those parents to liaise and deal satisfactorily and be required to deal with the school divisions, when in fact it is because of the school divisions that these parents have decided to keep their children at home.-(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I am having great difficulty in hearing the remarks of the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo). It appears the Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema), the Honourable Member for ln kster (Mr. Lamoureux) and the Honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) are carrying on some sort of a private conversation.

They may do so outside the Chamber. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, please. Mrs . Yeo: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. How can a parent who is dissatisfied with teaching, teachers, principals, school board members, school administration of a particular school division, then be told in dealing with your home-schooled child you must negotiate, you must talk with the school division, and they are the ones who have the responsibility? (Mr. Neil Gaudry, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) It is like putting a couple of lions in a den in many cases.

It to my mind should become the responsibility of the Department of Education, of the people in the department. I realize that presents a lot of difficulties, but to me it seems the logical, responsible action to take if one does believe that the Minister is responsible for all children in Manitoba. What happens to the home-schooled child whose parent has kept him or her or them, because in many cases it is a multitude of children?

If they have two or three or four they have them all around the kitchen table, and then for some reason or other the parent decides that all the children or one of their children should go back to the school division , whose responsibility is it to decide re-entry for that child, at what level? Who is responsible to test that child to be sure that they are at that entry point, and what negotiations are going to go on and with whom? Home schooling is increasing and the concerns there must be addressed a little more emphatically than they have been.

It is an area that deals with conflict of interest, and I certainly believe that is important. I have seen a situation where the chief executive officer of the school division has sanctioned the hiring of his own wife's company to do work in the school division. I think there is a rather definite conflict in that situation and there are many where it depends on who you know. The tendering process is important and it must be followed and must not be manipulated. Nor must school trustees on a certain board , on any board , be manipulated so that people can function in a conflict.

Yes, it has been said it must not only be without conflict, the appearance must also be there of no conflict. I would applaud the Minister for the

section on increased parental access to student records, because that has been an ongoing concern that there has not been anything actually in the Act that mandated that parents had the right to review the records. Sometimes the record, the definition of "record" is found nowhere. What is meant by "record"? There is often a file on each student in a class in the teacher's filing cabinet or the teacher's desk. There will be a file in the office, the principal's office, on every student in the school. There may well be another file that is kept in the sc hool board or the school division administrative office.

Then the teacher may sit down with the resource teacher and make scratches or with the school counsellor and make scratches on a piece of paper indicating actions that he or she wishes to take to assist that student to function, perform, to be a better student. Is this part of the student's record, I wonder? There has to be some definition of that word "record ." What does it mean? The other part of that recommendation that gives me a little bit of difficulty is the need in some cases for a resource person to be there with that parent to interpret the record.

Some parents do not understand the academia jargon because, believe me, teachers and educators have their own words that they love to use. I have a tough time understanding computer jargon. I do not know what is meant by Baud and POS and all the other things that the computer people are using. I would certainly need someone there to interpret what is meant by those words. If a parent wishes to look at the record, and I think that is the parent's right, it is not enough to hand them a piece of paper that says, a psychological test was done and here are the results. Wh at do they mean?

The risk there is that the parent will receive information but will not be able to ascertain what that information means. If the child has seen a psychologist, a speech pathologist, a guidance counsellor, there must be the 4498 -

Friday, January 19, 1990 opportunity made available for that parent or thos e parents to sit down with someone who will help them interpret the results of the various tests. * (1 12 0) I can recall when we sent our first daughter off to school even in Grade 1 not fully comprehending some of the words that were used to describe some of the classes that these young people had, and the problem with educators is, I do not know whether it is a problem, it is a fact, that every few years something new comes in.

They drop one set of criteria, and they move into another, and they try another, you know the old open classroom thing where they had no walls. Everybody was placed in a room and your group, your children, and it was the greatest thing in the world, and now what are they doing to all these open schools but putting walls up because they found that it did not work. Certainly for maybe 1 percent of the children it was all right, but for the other 99 percent it was rather destructive, so they are putting walls in. That is an example of a physical philosophy that has changed.

There are many, many more examples of curricular changes of a multitude of- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Could I have order, please, in the House. Mrs . Yeo: -different changes. I would hope, before we want passage of this particular Bill, that all Members in the House would see all the regulations that are listed only by that one word in Bill No. 59 outlined specificall y, and that we would be given the opportunity to insert those regulations in a more forcible way into the Act.

I would hope the accountability for the independent schools would be tightened up significant ly, because I think although there is a move toward addressing the situation, I do not think the move is far enough. When you look at the book that lists the independent schools throughout the province for the past few years and look at the picture, you see this one opened for a year and a half or two years. At least it is better than the Gloria School in Hong Kong which only I believe was open for half a day, if that.

Most of the schools in Manitoba have been open for a little longer than that if they did open, but they are coming in and out and in and out all the time. There must be some responsibility on the part of the Government. One of our beliefs is that in order for a school to be eligible, in order for an independent school to even be eligible to apply for public funding, that school should prove that it can operate successfully for a three-year period and would eliminate the fly-by nights that are around. So there is a great deal more that i would urge the Minister to look at to tighten up that particular area.

Then I see in the Act that there is not much mention of trustees. I have said before how concerned I am that we have not looked at the numbers of school divisions throughout the province, the numbers of trustees throughout the province. Is there really a need for that many? I do not know. It is not up to me or anybody else in the House to say, but I think it could be certainly examin ed . The Minister loves to set up committees. He has done a very good job of having committee s. He can even have a committee to evaluate the committee and that is terrific.

What I would like to see would be to have a Minister with action, a Minister that would say, okay, this is an area that we need to look at, we will look at it and then we will make a decision, a decision that would affect all Manitobans in a very positive way, a rather courageous decision I suppose, maybe a suicidal situation as well for a Minister, but sometimes you are like a kamikaze pilot, I think you go down for the cause. I look forward to hearing other individuals speaking on Bill 59.

I look forward to the committee discussions and presentations made, hopefully by the interested communities around our province, and I look even more forward to some positive amendments that will tighten up the current proposal for amendments to The Public Schools Act. Mr. Leonar d Evans (Bran don East): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), that debate be adjourned. I am sorry, was there someone else wanting to speak? Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Acting Speaker, I believe this Bill is remaining, and leave was granted to allow the Bill standing in my name.

I was just wondering whether I could ask leave of Members to perhaps speak on this Bill? The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Yes, there is no problem. Go ahead. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Minenko: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to participate in debate on this Bill. Again, it is one of the many Bills that has been introduced into the House this Session.

When one was to compare the various sections to what is presently in The Public Schools Act, we see indeed that the Minister is looking at some major changes in the way that these particular aspects are going to be dealt with in the future should this Bill pass in its present form. I appreciate the Member for Sturgeon Creek's (Mrs. Yeo) comments on this and where she has set out certainly the Liberal position and concerns with respect to some of the aspects, and I would like to highlight for the Minister some of the problems that I believe will be encountered in the future.

As a practising solicitor and barrister in this province, one of the biggest problems that we always have, or people come to us with, the big problem is what does this really mean, what does this word really say? When we were in law school and professors were teaching the introduction to legal analysis, legal research and the understanding of statutes and cases, one of the things the students would ask, I presume in every 4499

Friday, January 19, 1990 first-year class-and the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) would probably confirm that in his

section they probably asked the same question-can a lawyer preparing a submission look to the debate in the Legislatu re, in the House of Commons, for an

interpretation of what is meant by a piece of legislation. • (11 30) The professor is looking to the Member and is nodding, saying that undoubtedly in his class, as it was in our section, it was pointed out, no, you do not. You simply have to look at what the legislation says, and if there is need for

interpretation people have to go to court. I and other Members of our caucus have pointed out, on legislation in the First Session and indeed in the Second Session, the requirement for clarity in what exactly we mean when we write something on black and white, because all it will result in is increased costs to someone in Manitoba to actually try to find a definition for that particular word. I think this is an important aspect that we have to consider when drafting legislation. People sometimes say, well why do we not just breeze through it, and you do not really have to look at it word by word. Mr.

Acting Speaker, that is a too cavalier attitude for any Member of the Legislature to have. I think it is indeed important for us to review matters, and although it may seem to be petty to review things word by word I think it is indeed a requirement, because if we are not careful in how we define something then what it will result in is one of our constituents having to pay to have a court application to have that word defined. I would ask the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) to pay heed to some of these comments by the speaker previous and other speakers and certainly during the debate in the committee stage, because one of the aspects that I certainly believe in my humble opinion, Mr. Acting Speaker, that will be brought before the courts of this province and will result in a cost to one of our constituents-and seeing we all represent a

section of this province someone is going to have to pay for it-is I believe in

Section 7 of Bill 59, the definition of a file or record. The previous Member has spoken on that point, raised her concerns on it. I think the Minister should look at this point. How does the Minister of Education define a file or a record? I do not believe that in Bill 59 there is a definition of file or record. Is, for example, a file-and as someone who had gone through the education system and did my student teaching in many schools in Winnipeg-is the file that a teacher keeps at his/her desk a file or record in accordance with this section?

Is there a standardized approach in the Province of Manitoba as to what is a file or record? I think, Mr. Acting Speaker, that this point has to be clarified, because I can see the day when someone will walk into a lawyer 's office and say: I want to see what the teacher has in their drawer, at their desk. Will that fit in as a file or record, or is the file or record that which is kept in some offici al 's office, be it the principal, be it the vice principal, be it the guidance counsellor or be it the superintendent. Which file or record are we looking at?

I think this is an important aspect, because the whole issue of anecdotal notes that a teacher may make in their daily record-that many teachers if not all teachers have and perhaps even university professors have when they prepare their lectures and classes to what they are going to cover during a particular period of time. I understand the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) undoubtedly understands that point very well. Are those files and records that the parents will be entitled to have? So I would certainly ask the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) to review this particular aspect of this legislation.

I see that he is indeed attentively reviewing my comments and perhaps making notes on this point. I would certainly ask him to look at that again, send this particular aspect back to his officials for review. Perhaps one of his constituents is going to have to incur some sort of costs to have this point defined, and will he be able to get up in the morning and look himself in the mirror, if one of his constituents complains about having to pay legal costs to have something defined, that it was his department that brought it in? -(interjection)- The Minister of Highways (Mr.

Albert Driedger) says it might be scary. Mr. Acting Speaker, as one of the Latin phrases I have learnt: res ipse loquitur, and I would let it remain as it appears to be. Let someone other be the judge of that, perhaps from his own benches. I think this point has to be clarified, Mr. Acting Speaker. I think this point has to be clarified. There are some other particular aspects of this legislation that I believe also have to be further considered in committee. Certainly I support the previous comments from the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) as put on.

Another problem that perhaps I would like to highlight for the Minister is that I do not believe that in

Section 11 , where he deals with, "Assignment of princip al's duties to superintendent" that the role, the word principal is defined. The Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), who I believe was a principal, may well have a definition of what a principal is. My question is-but the whole question is, indeed we have had principals for many a year? What is the whole-the question is this: how is the legal definition of principal going to be set out? I think that aspect has to be considered because, yes and a judge may well take judicial notice. I am sure the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik) could explain that particular point to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Perhaps the judge could take judicial notice that there have been indeed principals, and they have performed a certain type of duties. I would also suggest that each school division, each school, may well have different types of roles that a principal plays. I think that this perhaps needs to be a little bit clarified, because is the principal to be an educational leader? Is that an important aspect in the 4500 - -·

Friday, January 19, 1990 definition of what is a principal? If it is, then-I see some nods from that side, then I would perhaps ask the Minister: is a superintendent an educational leader as well, or is there a difference between the two? I think there are going to be some concerns raised at committee stage about some of these points as well. Finally, Mr. Acting Speaker, with respect to-another point in the legislation deals with regulations that the Minister shall make various regulations at various points in time with respect to various matters.

We, in the Liberal Party, have expressed a number of concerns on the kinds of regulations that Ministers of this Government have been making over the period of time they have been in Government. Just recently, today, the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), my good colleague, asked about another regulation that was made. We will be certainly interested in hearing the responses that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) took under advisement to the question that he asked. What is the text of those regulations that the Minister will be working on?

We indeed have had some concerns about some of the types of regulations made by Ministers in the past, Ministers of this Government have made. I am sure we will be looking with great care in the regulations in the future and bringing them to task as required. * (1 14 0) Mr. Acting Speaker, another point dealing with the amendments presented before us of grave concern indeed have been some of the replies that certainly I have heard to Members in this Chamber and in committee as to the whole issue of job adjustment strategy in this province.

Yesterday in committee I spoke and considered and brought to the attention of the Minister the whole issue of job training for people who find themselves without jobs. Our position is well known indeed for the Free Trade Agreement, and I do not intend to dwell on that point. Mr.

Acting Speaker, what has been ignored by this Government when they throw out numbers saying that so many more people are employed here, so many people are employed there, is that by using numbers to camouflage what I believe is the true situation, they are doing a disservice to Manitobans who find themselves unemployed as a result of various policies or lack of policies of this Government. Most important, Mr. Acting Speaker, we have to look past those numbers, past the figures, past the statistics and look to the impact of a job loss on the individual worker, on that worker 's family.

Many of us indeed, perhaps all of us in this Chamber have constituents who find themselves at age 58, 59, 60, 63 being let go from a job they have had for 30, 40 years, perhaps finding themselves several years short of pension, finding themselves indeed in dire financial straits. Too often, Mr. Acting Speaker, is this aspect of job loss ignored. Even our friends to the left throw out various figures, but I have yet to hear from them the concern for the individual worker and the impact on that worker 's family. We saw certainly nothing from 4501 them in the previous administration with respect to that.

If one was to read the literature that comes out daily, and I am sure the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) does, just dealing with aspects of the impact of job loss on education and how education and training fits into the Free Trade Agreement, other bilateral agreements the Government has made, the GATT and various other international multilateral agreements, we see from both sides of the issue. We see speeches given by people such as the president and chief executive officer of Honeywell Limited.

We see in speeches such as the superintendent of program, Appeal Board of Education, the same type of issues brought forward, that learning cannot be seen anymore to end at the end of adolescence and presumably on turning the age of 18 and going into adulthood, that education has to become a lifelong pursuit, and we have to look to involve not only just educators but also the business community and labour in order for all those aspects to work together to put an efficient program in place. I can appreciate the council the Minister and this Government has set up to attempt to bring these three aspects together.

I would certainly look forward to seeing some quick action by the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) on this point, because, Mr. Acting Speaker, learning now and in the future will have to become a lifelong process. That important aspect has to be considered by this Government, and so far I do not see very much action from them at all. Certainly we did not see very much action from the previous administration.

Many of the constituents that I have met door to door as I have been working through my constituency over the last year and a half, meeting my constituents, talking to them, discussing the various issues important to them, one thing that keeps coming up is education. No matter what the age level, the people whom I have spoken with in my constituency, education is held to be an important aspect, an important issue of our times.

Many constituents who were laid off, who were older workers and laid off during the previous regime, still find themselves at that time without any training available and today still, after more than 20 months of this Government in operation, find themselves in the same boat. They are often reaching various levels of depths of despair . That should be of concern.

Although the Minister has certainly taken that first toe step forward after 20 months, and certainly with a Party that was in Opposition for six and a half years before and who should have been on top of some of the trends and issues, those workers are disappointed. Certain ly, Mr. Acting Speaker, with the type of experience that this Government attempts to portray to Manitobans that they have, I indeed believe all Manitobans are disappointed. (Mr. Harold Gillesham mer, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Acting Speaker, in conclusion I would like to say that indeed this Bill No. 59 offers some new initiatives,

Friday, January 19, 1990 some changes, but as I have poi nted out, I look forward to debates in commi ttee and presentations of any wit nesses that may be appea ring before us to perhaps be able to convince not only the Go vernment but also our friends to the left of some of the concerns that they have with respect to this legisla tion and some of the various aspects that could be tig htened up to make this piece of legisla tion, this Bill No. 59, inde ed that which we all want it to be. Thank you, Mr . Acting Speaker . The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gilleshammer): Is the Ho use ready for the qu estion? Ms .

Maureen Hemphill (Logan): I mo ve, seconded by the Mem ber for Chur chill (Mr . Cowan), that debate be adj ourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 60-THE ED UCATION ADMINISTRATION AMENDMENT ACT The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gilleshammer): On the pro posed motion of the Hono urable Min ister of Educ ation (Mr . Derka ch), Bill No. 60, The Education Adminis tration Amendment Act (Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur !'a dmin istra tion scolai re), standing in the name of the Hono urable Memb er for ln kster (Mr. Lam our eux). * (115 0) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I was only want ing to put a very few words on this par ticular Bill. From wha t I un derstan d, it is mor e a hous ek eep ing, housecleaning Bill. I thought it was im portant that at this stage, in addressing the principle, I could talk about the need maybe to have a mor e su bstantial Bill that add resses in my view, and in the view of many of my constituents, a much larger or greater need.

That is of cou rse what my col league, the Mem ber for Stu rgeon Creek (Mr s. Yeo), had introd uced a while back in terms of the pr oposed resolution regard ing the school division bounda ry review. We have seen this Government take an app roach on City Hall, in saying that they wou ld like to see the numb er of city cou ncill ors reduced , and ha ve put forward argum ents to try and valida te what they have been saying.

I think if you talk to mo st of the citi zens of the province, in par ticular the cit izens of Winnip eg, you will find that not only do they perceive a need to review City Hall, the num ber of comm ittees, councillo rs, and so forth, but the impr ession that I have been given by many of my constituents is the fact that not only should City Hall be reviewed, but the school board , a numb er of school di visions, and a numb er of school wards also should be add ressed. I wanted to ju st briefly com ment on the resolution that I had ma de reference to, and I think that is really dealing with the heart of the issue.

There are several inequit ies I believe that do need to be add ressed and I did want to make reference ju st to a couple of them. I think most, or a fair numb er, of the ML As would be able to come across incide nces where they have been called by a constituent where the constituent had a son or a daug hter that was wanting to go to a dif ferent school outside of that particular school division. I had made reference in add ressing the school di vision resolution to a case in point in my own constituenc y.

It is a hard fast rule and if you do want a child to go into a school that might be closer to the home, or virtually across the block in some cases, or on the other side of the block, they are unable to because of the school being in a di fferent school di vision. One of the conve rsations that I qui te often have with constituents is a comparis on between the City of Winnip eg and the City of Calgar y. As some of the colle agues in the Cham ber might be aware, Calgary's scho ol system is qu ite dif ferent from the City of Winn ipeg, a city of appro xima tely the same size.

We have 10 school di visions and some 79 school trus tees in the City of Winnip eg. In Calgar y, there is one pub lic school di vision and they have seven school trus tees. I am sure if you look arou nd to other school di visions in di fferent cities you might even find the opposite. I am not saying that we should necessarily be reducing it down to one school division and seven school trustees, but what I am sayi ng, Mr.

Acting Speaker, is that we should be aware of the fact that there are other systems out there, and they do need to be add ressed ju st as much if not more than the effort that we are putting into reviewing the City of Wi nnip eg at the cou ncil level, at the mun icipal level.

The crux of th e resolution was really th at the resolution made reference to putting together or setting up a board of reference, and that particular board would have hearings to listen to the school trus tees, parents, teachers' society and so forth in order to try and get an idea of the general dir ection we should be going to im proving our school system that we have currently in the province. Nowhere are we trying to say, or state, that it necessarily has to be a reduction in terms of school tru stees or a numb er of school di visions. Wha t we are saying is that we do need to add ress that issue.

The reduction aspect in the di scussions I have had with my own constituents, and that I wou ld lik e the Cham ber to be aware of, is that we do in fact have a large numb er of school di visions for the City of Winnip eg and there are several ineq uities. My riding is located in Winnip eg No. 1, Mr. Acting Speaker, and you will find that Wi nnip eg No. 1 is the largest school di vision in the province.

When you compa re it to other school di visions within the City of Winnip eg you will find that it is un believable in terms of the di fferences in school populations, where we have over 30,000 and you go to Nor wood Flats where there is another extreme and they are in the low thousan ds. There are other inequit ies that have been poi nted out to myself that I have looked somewhat into that I belie ve do need to be add ressed , becaus e the constituents in my riding believe that it does deserve the merit, or does deserve the Min ister of Educa tion (Mr . Derkach) to actually start taking some action on it.

There is no harm in setting up a board of reference 4502 - -- -

Friday, January 19, 1990 to investiga te, to look into the possi bili ties of impr oving our school system, that being the divisions anti the num ber of school tru stees. Any mo vement in a positiv e dir ection I am sure all col leagues-all of my colle agues in the Cham ber would be suppor tive of.

The only thing that we are lacking is really the ini tiative from the Department of Educa tion, through the Min ister of Educa tion, the lack of initia tive to actually take some bold step and form a commit tee of this nature to add ress what is perceived by not only I believe the constituents in my riding but the constituents in all of our ridings. I think if we were to go to the doors and consult with them you will find that there is a large grou nd swell of supp ort out there to start acting, and acting in a much more faster action, Mr. Acting Speaker.

We take a look at what the Mini ster of Urban Affa irs (Mr . Ducharme ) has been tryi ng to do. The manner in which he is doing it in can be somewhat qu estioned, but one of the bigg est selling planks that he was tryi ng to get on the record was the idea of reducing City Council from the cu rrent 29 to I believe it was 23. I believe, Mr. Acting Speaker, the reason why he was doing that was strictly because he felt that the pol itical will , or the public opinion, was to see Ci ty Hall reduce the numb er of city cou ncill ors that are elected. I wou ld advise the Min ister of Urb an Affairs (Mr .

Ducharme) that I believe that the cit izens of the Cit y of Wi nnip eg would be in larger num bers in favour of add ressing the issue of the school board and would encou rage the Minis ter of Ur ban Affairs maybe to work with or suggest in a strong fashion to Cabinet, because I do not believe the Min ister of Education (Mr . Derkach) is taking any act ion or is taking any ideas to the Cabine t Table in terms of what can be done to add ress this par ticula r issue. I find that somewhat unf ortuna te. That is really all I was wanting to speak on, Mr. Acting Sp eaker.

I am hoping that the Govern ment will take mor e than an in itia tive of bringing in a houseclean ing Bill of this nature and bring in something of great subs tance that would look at add ressing the need for the school divisions or the numb er of school di visions and im pr ovi ng, whether it is moving towards the reduction or the expans ion, but at least to get some type of a public input to find out if in fact Manito bans are being served well by the current school di visions and the numb er of school di visions and so forth that we now have. On that note, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportun ity to speak. • (1 200) Mrs . Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Acting Speaker, I have no in tention of spending any lengthy time dis cussing this particular Bill. The Educ ation Admin istra tion Amendme nt Act is not a very lengthy Act anyway, and this amend ment is basically a rather shor t amendment. Again, there are a few other things that I would have chosen to look at had I prepared the amendment. Agai n, the word "r egulations" is a very loosely placed word in several parts, particu larly

Section 4( 1) , and the aspect of regula tions is not terri bly tight. When looking at the actual Bill and the pro posed amendment, I think that the one area that bothers me 4503 the most is the area where there are some pro posed amend ments to the make-up of the advisor y board . Wha t concerns me there is again a word . The word is "nomina ted." Certai nly the Mini ster can select the mem bers of the board, but there is no obl igation on his part to select the nomina ted person from a particu lar organ ization, for ins tance, the sen ate of the Un iversity of Manitoba.

The way it stands now, loosely worded , the senate cou ld be requ ested to submit several nomi nees, and from that mu ltitude of nomine es, the Min ister would then select. There are dangers, as we kn ow. Who is mo re able to tell which mem ber from their par ticu lar group wou ld best rep resent them on a par ticula r board than that group itself? Someti mes as a matter of fact it is grabbing somebody by the neck and saying you will in fact allo w your name to stand. That group may kno w this person would best serve them but they might need a little arm-twis ting.

It just dis tresses me somewhat that the requir ement can be there in legislation that would allo w too many pol itical appoint ees per se out of a list of nomi nees. The other thing there that distr esses me a little bit is that there are four un iversities in our provinc e. St. Bonif ace Col lege is actu ally growi ng, expanding, and the French langua ge issue is becoming imp ortant. I think it would be advanta geous to include some representation, a sure representation, from our French lang uage popula tion. That is not in cluded.

I kno w there are other Mem bers in our caucus and perhaps in the Assembly who wish to speak to this Act . Because I took my full time in speak ing to Bill No. 59, I will thank you for this oppo rtu nit y. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would move, seconded by the Member for Chur chill (Mr . Cowan), that debate be adj ourned . MOTION presented and carried . BILL NO. 35-THE WILDLIFE AMENDMENT ACT The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gilleshammer): On the prop osed motion of the Hono urable Min ister of Natural Resou rces (Mr . Enns), Bill No. 35, The Wi ldlif e Amend ment Act , (L oi mod ifiant la

Loi sur la con servation de la faune), standing in the name of the Hono urable Mem ber for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor) . Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): I am pleased to rise toda y to speak on Bill No. 35, The Wildl ife Amendment Act of Manitoba. We see here with this Bill a rather prof ound change in orientation by Govern ment and one tha t I have to say that I am pleased with. We are going to see a separate compan ion Bill dealt with in this Session also, which will be Bill No. 8, The Endang ered Species Act.

For once we will have Acts with distinct responsi bilities for endanger ed species and general wildl ife protection. I think tha t is a posit ive step. I would be sup port ive of this init iative. It is the sort of thing that has been called upon by those active in wildli fe

Friday, January 19, 1990 pr otec tion, tho se active in ha ving trapp ing as a liveli hood and also from hunting groups thr ougho ut the province. I think what you are going to see, I think you will see a general embr acing of the thrust by the creation of these two Acts. Wha t you see in Bill No. 35, The Wildl ife Amend ment Act , is essentially now

an Act tha t will deal with hunting and tra pping. It will not be

an Act dealing with the preservation really in any fashion of any endanger ed species in the Provinc e of Man itoba. The fact that we have before us a Bill that di stinguis hes qui te clearly between hunting and tra pping, has a di fferent set of

definitions for both of those and di fferent means of deal ing with the carrying out of those activities, is a decided imp rovement over the present rather mudd y situa tion. (Mr . Neil Gaud ry, Acting Speak er, in the Chair) We will be looking forward to dealing with this Act and also Bill No. 8, as I mention ed a mom ent earl ier, The Endanger ed Species Act, in the commit tee stage. We have some concerns that do need to be add ressed in the comm ittee stage. We will be int erested in hearing the comments of the Member for Lakeside (Mr .

Enns), the Min ister responsible for these, on both of these Bills, and I hope comp letely with thorough explana tions from staff who we expect will be attending those meetings. I did notic e with some amus ement however that in

Section 1, which wou ld now become the new

Section 2, the defini tions of loaded fir earms. I was rat her surp rised qu ite frankly to see detailed

definitions about percussion muz zle-load ing fi rearms and flintlo ck muz zle-load ing firearms, in addition of cou rse to the regular breach-loaded fir earms which most of us would un derstand which fir e off norma l shells, be tho se rim acti vated shells or centre button activated shells, but to talk about mu zzle loaders in this day and age, I was really taken aback. I did not realize we had very ma ny hu nters in Manitob a that were using any form of muz zle loaders. It came across to me as so much blun derbus s. The need to put it in this fashion really escapes me.

I can just see the hunters out in the fields now with their horn of powder and their wads and their rods and their tamping down. Why a defi nition could not be put in that was an encom passing defi nition for whatever form of fi rearm, I am not qu ite sure, but I did not really see the need to get into this level of detai l. People that are out there using that sort of equipm ent are mo re out for the fun of using that pi ece of equipme nt as oppo sed to really being out hun ting. In any case, I am sure we would all like to see these antique pieces of relic armaments in use.

For a modern piece of legisla tion, having percussion mu zzle-load ing

definitions and flintlock muzzle- load ing defi nitions is really quit e someth ing. An Honourable Member: There is a whole mu zzle loading season, a special season. There are literally milli ons of Mani tobans mu zzle-load ing. Mr. Taylor: The Mem ber for Chur chill (Mr . Cowan) is informing me from his seat that there are mill ions of mu zzle loaders in Ma nitoba. Pardon my amusement here. In any case, I also notic e in this Act though an attempt to have consis tency in the penaltie s provided in the various provisi ons of the Act.

This will be a fir st, because what you have generally seen in Acts of this nature is that there has been total in consis tency, Mr. Acting Speaker , when it came to the penalties under The Wi ldl ife Act and in fact in num erous of the Acts that are un der the jurisd iction of the Natural Resources Depar tment. Why that should be, I am not sure. I know this is one of the older departments in Go vernment, but that does not mean all its legislation needs to be dated , archaic and incon sistent. I wou ld hope we will see mo re of that. We also see a better definition of officer.

The one that was there is repealed, and there is a new one in there for that. There is of course, as I menti oned , a new defi nition for hunting, poison device as well, which I think is good . * (12 10) There is also a clarifica tion in this Act in the provision for prohibi tion of lic ence for hunting in which it is qu ite clear that the jus tice inv olved would have the dis cretion of going beyond one year of prohi biting somebody from havi ng a hunting lic ence. In fact , it could go beyond the five years of the normal provision shou ld that be necessary, given the offence that had been perpetrated.

Also to make this Act consi stent, there has been clearer definition of what a hun ting offence and what a trapping offence is, and I think that is all to the good. There may be minor changes in term inolo gy which will sti ll see amendments come forward in the comm ittee stage, because we found a few in consis tencies in the Act , but for the mo st part the attempt to separate trapping from huntin g by stating the term, by the definiti ons, et cetera, has been for the most part well done thr oughout the Act .

Also an initia tive of the Cons ervative ad min istra tion, to ma ke the Act gender neutral , I think is the sort of way to go. However, the Li berals will say that there is an in consis tenc y and tha t this document is not consis tent th ro ughout, it is no t gender neutral thr oughout. It will be our effort to make it such at the comm ittee stage.

We are not terribly surpr ised that a Con servative admin istrati on would have a little trouble with getting a piece of legislation gender neut ral , given that this is the Party famous, or I should say in famous, for the expressions of its former Leader referring to "br eeders" and "b reedees." We all remember that not too many years ago. There still seems to be trouble amongs t many of our Con servative col leagues yonder in dealing with gender neutral terminolo gy. Rarely do they use terms such as "staffing levels"; it would be more "man power" wou ld be used.

Rarely do we hear "chairp ersons"; it wou ld more lik ely be "chairmen" or "Mr . Chairma n." Those sorts of expressions are the more normal we hear so we are not surp rised they are havi ng trouble making thei r Bill 35 consistently gender neut ral thr oughout. One of the issues that we will be dealing with at some length, I wou ld suggest, in comm ittee is going to be 4504 -

Friday, January 19, 1990 Su bsection 77(2). This is where the Mini ster ma y desig nate a person as being qualif ied to perform exam inations. This is an area that we feel does requir e clarifica tion and a convincing of those of us on the oppo site side that the

section is properly framed , is inclu sive enough and that there are no flaws in the appro ach in that matter. There is also later on in

Section 81, di scussion about general contra ventions of the Act in addition to the specific offences in the regu lations . We will also want to look at that point. It is in that same

section where we see a raising of the minimum fines from $500 to $ 1, 500, again part of the attempt to make the penalty provisions thr oughout Bill No. 35 consistent. I think that is good. It is of cou rse noted that in

Section 90( bb), that the- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Order, please; order please. POINT OF ORDER The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): The Ho nourable Min ister of Fina nce (Mr . Manne ss), stands on a point of order. Hon . Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Ac ting Sp eaker , the Mem ber is bec oming mor e perilo usly close to breaking the Rules, with respect to second reading. I just heard him ind ica te specifically a clause or

section of a certain Bill. That is not allo wed under the Ru les of the Ho use when one is addr essing second reading of a Bill. I wou ld ask that the Mem ber try to debate the Bill in principle and - An Honourable Member: Admonish him, sma ck him arou nd. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Ord er. Ord er, please. Mr. Manness: -m ake his specific remarks during either Comm ittee of the Whole or in deed- An Honourable Member: Learn the Rules, Har old. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Order , please; order, please. I would remind the Hon ourable Mem ber for Wolseley (Mr .

Taylor), citation from Beauchesne' s, "The second reading is the most impor tant stage through which the Bill is requir ed to pass; for its whole principle is then at issue and is affi rmed or denied by a vote of the Ho use. It is not regul ar on this occa sion, however, to dis cuss in detail the claus es of the Bill." The Honourable Mem ber for Wolseley. ***** Mr.

Taylor: If the nit-pick ers on the Government side wou ld let me finish my question, I wou ld have referred 4505 to the principle of the Bill, which is the separating, in this piece of legislation, those things dealing with enda ngered species over into Bill No. 8. I was going to com pli ment the Government for doing that separation, but seeing as they do not want to listen to that, they are jumping up on their feet like a bunch of bugged kangaroos. We will deal in qu ite some detail on the sections, Mr. Ac ting Speaker, and I will be in terested to see if the Hon ourable Mem ber for Pembina (Mr.

Or chard), who from the seat of the Indus try Min ister is so vocal in this Ho use this Frida y afterno on, will be there to debate these matters. He certai nly seems to think it is awfully im portant right now. Althoug h, I measure that only by volume and not by content, because there is not much forthco ming there. In any case, we look forward to the debate on a clause-by-clause basis in commit tee of Bill 35 and with, as I should mention, the companion Bill No. 8, The End anger ed Species Act because the separat ion in to these two documents I think is a very impor tant step.

A step of this nature must be done well without inconsi stencies, without gaps, and we have seen the un fortuna te track record recently of Bill 79, Mr. Act ing Speaker, where we had a Governm ent that said you have to get this thr ough imm edia tely.- (i nterjection) Coutd I have order here, please. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Order , pl ease. Mr. Taylor: The Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) seems to think he has the floor.- (int erjection) - An Honourable Member: Sorr y, Har old. An Honourable Member: No, he is not, Harold. * (1 220) Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much.

We ha d the un fortuna te case recently of Bill 79, where it was said that not only must this be through by the 22nd of December, but that this Act is so well constructed, there are no flaws to it. We kno w very well what happened . There was no problem when this Bill was through this Hous e on the 11 th of Janu ary. Al beit, and the Mem ber for Fort Garr y (Mr. Laurie Evans) says I wonder how many amendments there were. Well, there were 64 amend ments and there should have probably been 64 mor e amend ments.

Of cou rse, so many of those amend ments were put to being as a test of this Govern ment, as being mone y mod ifying amend ments and, ther efore, could not be brought forward . We will see if Bill 35 stands the test. I hope it stands the test much better than the Bill that was brought forward by the Min ister of Ru ral Developme nt (Mr . Penner), and I look forward to sitting across the comm ittee table from the Mem ber for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) and debating Bill 35 whole heartedly, clause by claus e. Mr. Leonard Evans (Br andon East): Mr . Acting Speaker, if it is not standing in any one's name, I would

Friday, January 19, 1990 mo ve that debate be adjou rned , seconded by the Memb er for Chur chill (Mr . Cowan ). HOUSE BU SINESS Hon . Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Act ing Speaker , I rise at this time to provide some dir ection to the House, with respect to the callin g of comm ittees for next week. The reference of certain Bills to that comm ittee-I would like to anno un ce that Bill No. 63, whatever the name of that Bill is, be referred to Law Amend ments Comm ittee to meet at 8 p.m., next Tuesday, Room 255 to consider that Bill.

At the same time, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey), that Bill No. 64, The Busi ness Practices Act, be withd rawn from the Standing Commit tee on Indus trial Relation and Bill No. 83, The Ozone Depleting Su bstances Act, be withd rawn from the Stand ing Com mit tee on Publ ic Util ities and Natu ral Resourc es and both these Bills be trans ferred to the Stand ing Comm ittee on Law Amend ments, to be held also Tuesday next, 8 p.m, Room 255. An Honourable Member: Are the leaflets ready now, Mr. Act ing Sp eaker? ***** The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Gaudry): Ord er, please. (int erjection) - Order , please. Fir stly, I neglected to ask the qu estion on Bill No. 35, th at it remain standing in the name of the Honourable Memb er for Brandon East (Mr . Leonard Evans). Agr eed? Agreed and so order ed. ***** The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Moved by the Honourable Min ister of Fina nce (Mr . Ma n ness), seconded by the Honourable Min ister of Northern Affa irs (Mr . Downey), that Bill No. 64, The Busine ss Pr actices Act ;

Loi sur les pra tiq ues commer ciales, be withd rawn from the Stand ing Comm ittee on Ind ustrial Rela tions, and Bill No. 83, The Ozo ne Deple ting Su bstances Act;

Loi sur les su bstances appauvris sant la couche d'o zone, be withd rawn from the Stan ding Comm ittee on Publi c Utilit ies and Natur al Resources, and that these Bills be transferred to the Sta nding Commit tee on Law Amend ments. Ag reed . The Honour able Mi nis ter of Finance. Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Speaker , ju st as a point of clari fica tion, I just want to ma ke sure that Mem bers realiz e that Bill 71, which had been referred to the Law Amendments Comm ittee, will not be called Tuesday. Agreed. BILL NO. 73-THE HIGHW AY TR AFFIC AMENDMENT ACT

(6) The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): On the propo sed motion of the Honourable Min ister of Hig hways and Transporta tion (Mr . Al bert Driedger), Bill No. 73, The Hig hway Traffic Amendment Act (6); Loi no 6 mod ifiant le Code de la route, stan ding in the name of the Honour able Mem ber of St. Vital (Mr . Rose). Sta nd. Is it the matter of the House to remain stan ding in the name of the Honourable Memb er for St. Vital? Ag reed. BILL NO. 84-THE WASTE REDUCTION AND PREVEN TION AND CONSEQUENT I AL AMENDMENTS ACT The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Gaudry): On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Minis ter of Environment (Mr . Cumm ing s), Bill No. 84, The Waste Reduction and Pr evention and Consequential Amend ments Acts;

Loi sur la reduction du volume et de la production des dechets et modif ica tions correlatives, standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Dau phin (Mr . Ploh man). Sta nd. Is it the will of the Hous e to have it remain stand ing? Ag reed and so order ed. BILL NO. 31 -THE LABOUR REL ATIONS AMENDMENT ACT The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): On the propos ed motion of the Honour able Min ister of Labour (Mr s. Ham mond), Bill No. 31, The Labou r Rela tions Amendme nt Act; Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur les relations du travail, stan ding in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). Sta nd. The Honour able Mem ber for Brandon East. Mr. Leon ard Evans (Bran don East): Mr . Act ing Sp eaker, it is my pr ivilege to speak on this very im por tant piece of legisla tion, which is going to set back the clock in terms of labour legislation in this province. The previous New Dem ocrat ic Party Go vernment brought in a very inno vative piece of labour- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Order , please.

I have recogni zed the Honour able Member for Bra ndon East . Mr. Leonard Evans: The previous NOP Govern ment brought in some very prog ressive legislation, very inn ovat ive legisla tion, and legislation which we clearly said was something that cou ld be tried . In deed, we even provided for a five-year sunset clause so there wou ld be a period of time in which we would have the experienc e of this legislation and then ultima tely analyze it and make a decision at that point. Certai nly we are very much oppo sed to what the Min ister of Labour (Mr s.

Ha mmond) is now trying to do, which is to elimi nate this very prog ressive piece of legislation . As time goes on we find mor e and mor e groups in this province are supp orting the stand of the New Dem ocra tic Party. We have everyone from the doctors groups right through to various women 's groups, and when I say women 's groups, I do not speak lightly, we are talking about a group of 36, the Manitoba Women's Agenda, which is made up of 36 women 's organ izations from across the province, and they have stated clearly, by way of resolution, and I will read this resolution: The refore

be it resolved that the Gov ernment of Ma nitoba live up to its com mitm ent in the pream ble of The Labour Relations Act to encou rage collective 4506 - - ' ----,..---

Frid ay, Janu ary 19, 1990 bar gaining between emp loyers and unions as freely desig nated representatives of emplo yees and withd raw the Bill repealing final offer selection. This Women 's Agenda organ ization represents 36 group s and in deed they are speak ing for thousands of women in the Provi nce of Manitob a. In fact, it is estima ted that they were probably speak ing for at least 200,0 00 women who are in those indus tries, in those occup ations, which is di rectly affected by this legislation.

In deed the co-ord ina tor of the Manitoba Women's Agenda is very clear when she says that this particular legislation introduc ed by the NDP defini tely assists women in this province, and in fact she points out that it helps mo re than 200, 000 Manitoba women work ing in service ind ustries. She says that these women are in job s, some are not highl y skill ed, and it is easy for emplo yers to find strike breakers willing to take their places. In deed, because service jobs are low payi ng, the service sector unions often have little mone y for strike pay.

They canno t afford extended strikes. 4507 I wou ld think that all

Partie s in this Hous e should listen to this women 's group, this women 's group which represents thousands of women in the province. I would say this is a coalition group repres enting div erse organizations such as the Immi gr ant Wo me n's Assoc iation, the Winni peg YM- YWCA, the Manitoba Action Commit tee on the Status of Women, the Coalition of Ru ral Women. Together they are saying to this Legislatur e, do not pass the Bill of the Min ister of Labour . Leave FOS.

Leave the prog ressive piece of legislation brought in by the previous New Democra tic Party Government, and inde ed I think it would be to the serious di sadvantage to both the Cons ervative and the Li beral Party to ignor e the advice and the position of these women 's groups. The Acting Speaker {Mr. Gaudry): The Honour able Member will have 37 min utes remai ning for the Member for Brandon East. The hour being 12 :30 p.m., we adjourn, and the House will remain adjourned until 1: 30 p.m., Monda y.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-107
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 107.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	1fb3ed6fc6e2c2756820687ff67855458f100ed9

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).