Second Session, 42nd Parliament

(2021) OFFICIAL REPORT

OF DEBATES

(HANSARD)

Tuesday, June 8, 2021

Afternoon Sitting

Issue No. 88

ISSN 1499-2175

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Economic Recovery and Innovation (continued)

Hon. R. Kahlon

T. Stone

A. Olsen

D. Davies

J. Tegart

T. Shypitka

R. Merrifield

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development (continued)

Hon. K. Conroy

J. Rustad

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries (continued)

Hon. L. Popham

M. de Jong

I. Paton

Estimates: Ministry of Health

Hon. A. Dix

S. Bond

D. Ashton

S. Furstenau

TUESDAY, JUNE 8, 2021

The House met at 1:34 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. Farnworth: In this House, I call Committee of Supply on the estimates of Jobs,

Economic Recovery and Innovation.

In the Douglas Fir Room,

Section A, I call the estimates for Forests,

Lands and Natural Resource Operations.

In the Birch Room, I call the estimates for the Ministry of Agriculture,

and when they’re finished, we’ll start the estimates of the Ministry of

Health.

[1:35 p.m.]

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

JOBS, ECONOMIC

RECOVERY

AND INNOVATION

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); N. Letnick in the

chair.

The committee met at 1:39 p.m.

On Vote 35: ministry operations, $78,648,000

(continued) .

The Chair: Just if I may, a personal moment to welcome the member for

Cariboo North to the House in this new COVID environment. We are

enjoying taking our masks off and putting our masks on — especially

the member for Kamloops–South Thompson, I’m sure.

With that, who wants to go first?

Minister.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you, hon. Chair. Again, thank you for the reminder for all

of us about the masks.

A special welcome to my friend from the Cariboo. It’s nice to see

her — first time during the pandemic. Again, it’s a little weird being

here, but you’ll get the hang of it real quick.

[1:40 p.m.]

T. Stone: I, too, would like to welcome the member for Cariboo North. It’s

great to have you here in the chamber and in Victoria. Appreciate the

incredible work that you’re doing back home to fight for your

constituents.

Just for a little bit of planning, we’re going to go through a

bunch of jobs numbers and more on some related issues. The two Crown

corps that we had talked about earlier are good for today. We will

likely end today with a series of some local questions from a number of

my colleagues. I’m not sure exactly what time that will start, but it’ll

be towards the end of today.

I just wanted to take us back to where we left things off earlier

today. We had a fair bit of back-and-forth on StrongerBC and direct

supports versus other types of supports — grants and direct relief

versus loans and deferrals, and so forth. I really wanted to hone into

StrongerBC and the component in StrongerBC which is contained on table

1.2.6 of Budget 2021, “Ongoing business supports from the StrongerBC

economic recovery plan.”

The small and medium-sized business recovery grant which was

announced in September of 2020, containing $345 million, consisted of

dollars that had been approved by this assembly in March of 2020. Budget

2021 provides for a forecast spend, of that $345 million in the small

and medium-sized business recovery grant, of $150 million in the 2021

budget and the remaining $195 million in the 2021-22 budget, the current

fiscal year that we’re now in. In terms of the previous fiscal year of

2020-2021, $150 million represents about 43 percent of the overall

program budget.

First off, does the minister feel that it was acceptable that less

than half of the dollars — again, which had been approved by this

assembly in March of 2020 — rolled out six months later in the

StrongerBC plan in September of 2020, albeit a week before the

provincial election was called? That the result of all of those time

delays and timelines being stretched and so forth resulted in only 43

percent of the entire program allocation being pushed out the door to

those small businesses that really need the support the most?

[1:45 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Because we just started this and the hon. member laid out some

timelines, I think it just makes sense to go through a little bit of the

timeline with him.

As we were canvassing prior to the lunch break, StrongerBC was

announced on September 17, 2020. The intake for this grant program was

launched on October 9, 2020. He will, I’m sure, remember that on

December 23… A few weeks after becoming minister, after some

consultation, we expanded the program on the 23rd.

[1:50 p.m.]

Originally, it was targeting those that were the most vulnerable

businesses. We were able to adjust the program at that point. We further

expanded the program on March 4. Currently the staff — which are doing

an amazing job, by the way, under challenging times — are approving

between $2.5 million to $4.8 million per business day.

I think it’s important to know that 260,000 workers are impacted

by the financial supports that have gone out already. That’s

significant. If you look at any program in government and go back to the

history, 260,000 is a very significant number. I know, in the context of

today’s conversation, there are going to be a lot of numbers being used.

I think the hon. member and I will agree even saving a handful of

businesses is important, but ensuring that 260,000 employees continue to

be employed during a challenging time is quite significant.

T. Stone: The question was: is the minister able to explain why only 43

percent of the $345 million program, which was announced…? He said he

put the date out there again, and it’s correct: September 27. Why was

there the delay between March 2020 and the StrongerBC launch in

September? Why was there that delay? Is he satisfied that, likely as a

result of that delay, only 43 percent of the $345 million earmarked for

this business recovery grant program was actually pushed out the

door?

[1:55 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think we’ve discussed this. I’ll just say it again, that from

March 2020 to June 2020 to September to December to January, February,

March, now, the pandemic has changed. The needs have changed.

When StrongerBC was announced in September, the program was

designed to support the most vulnerable businesses. It was a very

specific criteria. As we have done from the beginning of the pandemic,

we continue to listen to our stakeholders, and maybe this is a good time

for me to say a big thank-you to all of them for working cooperatively

with government to find solutions and identify challenges. That’s what

we’ve done from the beginning.

The program launched. We heard feedback. Certainly, in the early

days of becoming minister, taking this role on, that was a priority for

me. I reached out to many of the stakeholders and took their feedback

about what they suggested we should change. We accepted all the

recommendations. In fact, we made those changes in December.

As businesses started to apply, we were able to continuously

adjust as the pandemic adjusted. I think all of us were hoping that the

pandemic wouldn’t last this long. Certainly, all of us are praying that

it won’t last longer. But that was what we were doing from the

beginning.

What I can confirm for the member is that when the budget was

initially announced, it was $300 million, and now we have $430 million.

So the program has been oversubscribed. We have more businesses applying

than we had originally projected. I’m sure he would agree that that’s

good for the province. That’s good for businesses across

B.C..

T. Stone: Well, I think that what’s good for businesses across British

Columbia is for small businesses to still be standing when the pandemic

is over.

The reality is this. As I’ve said several times now, we

unanimously approved billions of dollars of funding in March of 2020. It

took six months and, frankly, two waves of the pandemic before the

government decided to launch its StrongerBC strategy, which was launched

on September 17 of 2020. Four days later, an election is called, which

subsequently delayed pushing these dollars out to businesses even

further.

We find ourselves with a new government being sworn in, in

November. The minister knows well — we canvassed this extensively

through November, December, January and February — just how slow it was

to get dollars within this $345 million small and medium-sized business

recovery grant out the door. So it’s a bit disingenuous to say, “Well,

the pandemic was evolving and changing, and we were hopeful that it

wasn’t going to be as bad as it was,” and so forth.

Between March of 2020 and September of 2020, we all witnessed

thousands of small businesses close their doors. Many of them are never

going to reopen their doors. Many of those folks will tell you that they

were looking around for the government of British Columbia to stand up

and support them, and the government didn’t roll out the StrongerBC

program with those direct supports in the form of grants and direct

relief, fully six months after the funds were approved in March. So

that’s on the government’s…. That’s their record. It’s unfortunate, but

it is what happened. Unfortunately, a lot of small businesses have paid

the ultimate price as a result of those delays.

I will further say that the small and medium-sized business

recovery grant, albeit when the minister includes the circuit breaker

funding amounts, there is an overall larger pool of support there —

we’re still going to be standing here months from now waiting for all of

these dollars to be pushed out the door in support of those businesses

that need it.

[2:00 p.m.]

I mean, it’s conceivable that we could be 1½ years into this

pandemic, and the minister says that the program is oversubscribed.

Perhaps he should stop saying, as he did earlier this morning, about how

businesses impacted should go and apply for the small and medium-sized

business recovery grant, if it’s truly oversubscribed. But that’s a

different question. The reality is, we’re a year and a half into this

thing, and we’re going to have significant dollars likely still sitting

with the government and not having been pushed out to small

business.

On that note, I would like to ask the minister: how much has been

paid out to businesses currently, like to this date, for the small

business recovery grant, the circuit breaker grant, the PST rebate, the

increased employment incentive and the launch online grant? Again, how

much money is in each of those pots, and how much has been actually paid

out to businesses in each of those five program areas?

[2:05 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: So there are a lot of things there that the member asked about.

But I think, again, before we move to some of the specific questions at

the tail end, I think it’s important to clarify for the member, if I

haven’t been clear enough for him, that in March we didn’t wait until

September to put supports in place. Supports were put in place in

March.

Additional plans — part of StrongerBC — additional supports came

in in September, but we did put supports in immediately to support

businesses. Of course, we can debate this back and forth if the member

disagrees, but it was popular from those that were affected, because

those were measures they were asking for.

The program, StrongerBC, was launched in September. Government

staff had to turn that around into a program to set up their intake

process. They set that up and launched it on October — I believe it’s

the 20th. I shared the exact date with the member already. So the member

should know that. It opened up October 20. I’ve given him the timeline

of how the program was adjusted, we’ve been pretty transparent on

that.

I’ve also shared with him that the small and medium-sized grant

program was originally $300 million.

[2:10 p.m.]

When I say oversubscribed, I mean that we have more applications

since that $300 million, and that’s why the budget has gone to $430

million. I’m sure the member, like myself, will encourage businesses

that need financial supports to apply. I know there have been times when

some people in the opposition have raised the needs of certain

businesses. We have proactively reached out to them to help them apply,

and some of them have already successfully received financial

supports.

The member asked about a couple of programs. I’ll go through each

of them with the member. The small and medium-sized grant program was

launched on October 9, expanded on December 23 and expanded further on

March 4. We have received 17,895 complete applications, and 10,217

applications have been fully approved. That’s $214.4 million.

It’s important to note, from the adjudication team, that 30 to 50

percent of applications submitted for adjudication came in with all

their documentation. Between 30 and 50 percent came in with complete

information, and 40 percent of those submitted inaccurate banking

information, which obviously slows the process down. The timelines for a

complete and accurate submission are four to six weeks. I think that’s

important for the member to know.

He raised the circuit breaker grant program, for which we had

12,416 applications fully complete — that’s $52.498 million — and 40

percent of those applications that were submitted had inaccurate banking

information. It was often the case that businesses would apply, but then

they would put their personal banking information in, as opposed to the

correct business that they were applying for.

The member asked about the launch online program. I think it’s

important for the member to note that the original launch online dollar

allocation was used up within two weeks. Within two weeks, that program

had been so popular with businesses throughout B.C. that that money was

fully subscribed. So we increased the financial contribution

significantly. Over 7,300 applications have been received, and 3,680 of

those businesses have received $15.95 million in funding, as of June 4.

Of course, the member knows that Alacrity Canada is administering that

program.

I think he may find this interesting as well: 49 percent of every

dollar that’s gone out from that program has gone to BIPOC and regional

communities. So the money has been spread to communities. It wasn’t

centralized in Vancouver. We had metrics in place to ensure that dollars

were getting out to rural communities, that BIPOC communities were

having an opportunity to participate. And 49 percent — that’s a

significant number of businesses.

The member also makes…. There have been a couple of times where, I

guess, we disagree on numbers. I’m reporting actual reports and facts

here. The member has been raising some numbers; I’m not entirely sure

where his are coming from. The monthly net businesses opening in B.C.

have been going consistently positive since June 2020.

So February 2020, we saw 218 businesses, net decrease. In March

2020, we saw a decrease of just over 5,000. In April, we saw a decrease.

But from June, we’ve been seeing a steady increase, net increase, of

businesses. In fact, we are at 99.8 percent of businesses that have

opened from February 2020 to now — 99.8 percent.

[2:15 p.m.]

We’ve seen a steady net increase of businesses opening from June

2020 to now, which I think is significant. Again, I think it’s a

testament to the amount of financial supports that are in place that

that many businesses were able to continue to stay open. Of course, my

family ran a restaurant here in Victoria for a decade. I’ve said on the

record many times that it was difficult in normal times to be able to

operate a business. I can only imagine the stress that many businesses

have faced in the pandemic.

Again, a historic amount of dollars, highest per-capita supports

for people and businesses in the country, and the numbers speak for

themselves.

T. Stone: Well, on the business numbers that the minister has just thrown

out there, I would hope that he would agree that there are sectors that

are not reflected in his 99.8 percent number, meaning there are sectors

that continue to be significantly hampered. Just last evening, walking

down Douglas Street and over to Wharf Street and up, I spent about an

hour walking around downtown Victoria. It’s just staggering, in early to

mid-June, that if you’re lucky, you might walk past one other human

being in an entire block of downtown Victoria.

Business after business is closed because their hours have been

significantly reduced. You look at their door, and it says their

business hours. There’s one Chinese restaurant: “We’re only open on

Fridays and Saturdays.” A clothing store, only open on Mondays and

Wednesdays. A sports retailer I was looking at was only open four days a

week. Presumably, they were open more than that before the pandemic

hit.

The proof is really going to be in the pudding months ahead from

now when we actually see how resilient they really have been able to

become. Frankly, when CFIB reports, as they did just the other day, that

the average small business has taken on $170,000 of debt during the

pandemic, the chickens are going to come home to roost when that debt

has to be paid back.

I would hope that the minister would acknowledge that. These

blanket statements of 99 percent of all the jobs being back, when we

know that the job profile in British Columbia is very different today

than it was a year ago…. Those blanket statements around 99 percent of

businesses having reopened…. The profile of our downtowns and

communities across the province is very different today, from a

small-business perspective, than it was one year ago.

I want to ask the minister. There were two other business supports

I had mentioned that are in that table from Budget 2021. The first is

the PST exemptions on select machinery and equipment. The second is the

wholesale pricing for hospitality licences. The other one that I had

mentioned earlier that I was hoping to get an update on is the increased

employment incentive tax credit — just what the profile looks like on

that program as well, the total program dollar value and, again, how

much of those funds have actually been pushed out to support the

businesses that they’re intended to support.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’ve been on the record many times to say that we’re all in the

same storm, but we’re all in different boats.

[2:20 p.m.]

The impacts of the pandemic have been felt disproportionately by

people but also businesses. Certainly, as the hon. member knows, I was

born and raised here. When you walk around the downtown core, it’s

quiet. It’s obviously quiet because we know the tourism sector in

particular is not seeing international tourism. We know that many

businesses have shifted to working remotely.

There are a lot of unknowns. The member is right on that. There

are some unknowns around what that will mean going forward and whether

there will be some sort of return to work.

But when you don’t have that base of people coming to visit the

local restaurants here, and you don’t have the international tourists —

yeah, it’s challenging. It’s a challenging time. We have been clear: we

acknowledged from day one that the tourism sector has been hit hard. I

agree with the member on that.

The member asked three questions around PST exemption, wholesale

pricing and employment tax incentive. I suggest the member raise that in

the Ministry of Finance estimates, which I believe are coming in a

couple of days. They’ll be able to better provide that answer for

him.

T. Stone: I guess the next question would be this. I appreciate the numbers

that the minister has put out there today, in terms of the update on the

small and medium-sized business recovery grant, the circuit breaker, the

launch online. I’m a bit surprised that he can’t or won’t — as a member

of cabinet and a member responsible for economic recovery and jobs,

generally — answer questions about the increased employment incentive.

He certainly talks a lot about it out there in the province.

I want to ask this. We’re talking about the small and medium-sized

business recovery grant, which, again, had an original dollar value of

$345 million. Only about 50 percent of the dollars, or less than 50

percent of the dollars in that program, are out the door, and the

minister says the program is oversubscribed.

The circuit breaker grant, if I heard the numbers correctly —

about 40 percent of the dollars are out the door. That, I believe, he

said is oversubscribed as well, or fully subscribed. Launch online was

fully subscribed within days of being launched, according to the

minister, but only 50 percent of those dollars are out the

door.

It kind of points to a theme here of pretty significant delays —

adjudication times, application processing times and delays in actually

getting the supports out the door. If we’re fully subscribed in most, if

not all, of these programs, why is it taking so long to actually get

these dollars out to the businesses that critically need the support?

They need it now, not weeks or months from now.

[2:25 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Appreciate the question from the hon. member. I think I

highlighted some of the challenges around documentation in my previous

answer: 30 to 50 percent of applications for the small and medium-sized

recovery grant were submitted for adjudication that had the complete

documentation. That means up to 70 percent at times didn’t have it all

in. Forty percent of those who submitted — inaccurate banking

information.

It’s not the entirety of the challenge, but there have been some

challenges in that circuit breaker I highlighted also, because that

program was very streamlined. In fact, it was, you can say, co-developed

but with strong advice from our association and private sector

partners.

[2:30 p.m.]

Even that very streamlined process had about 40 percent of

applications that came in with not complete information, so that leads

to, obviously, some delays in the process.

Then the question around Alacrity Canada administering the

program. I think it’s important for the member to know that the original

budget for that program was used up within two weeks of the program. We

had enough applications within two weeks. That’s the program for launch

online. That’s why we significantly scaled up the amount of money

available. If you have enough applications within two weeks, you know

there’s a real need for that program. Alacrity Canada is going through

the applications and supporting our businesses to get online.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

I think that’s important work — important for many of our

businesses to prepare and transition for what the economy will look like

post-COVID and, certainly, the challenges they’re facing right

now.

T. Stone: What is the average adjudication time or processing time for

applications in the small and medium-sized business recovery grant

program, the circuit breaker program and the launch online?

[2:35 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: For the small and medium-sized recovery grant program, the ideal

time, with a complete and accurate submission, is four to six weeks.

With the circuit breaker relief grant program, the ideal timeline, with

complete and accurate information, is two weeks. With Alacrity Canada

and the launch online, it’s 15 business days.

T. Stone: The concern that I’m highlighting here is just how long it seems

to be taking for the government to actually, if you look back over the

course of the entire pandemic from March of 2020 to today, push supports

out the door for small business.

I’m trying to make sense of the fully subscribed, oversubscribed

realities of these programs, as the minister has stated, with the fact

that there are still, in each of the cases of these three programs, at

least 50 percent of the funding that hasn’t yet been pushed out the

door. It just doesn’t seem to make sense.

If we just go back through the dates here. The circuit breaker was

launched on April 8 as a carve-out from the small and medium-sized

business recovery grant. So two months ago. There is only 40 percent of

the dollars out the door — 40 percent. It’s been two months.

The launch online, which was launched on, I believe, February 3 —

that’s four months ago — is only 50 percent out the door. Then, of

course, the granddaddy of them all, the small and medium-sized business

recovery grant, with approximately $400 million in it, was launched on

October 9 of last year, which is eight months ago, and only 50 percent

of the dollars in that program have actually been pushed out the

door.

I mean, those are all the dates and the percentages as provided to

me today by the minister. Forty to 50 percent of the dollars out the

door for funding that was announced, in the case of the recovery grant,

back in October; the launch online, in February of this year; and the

circuit breaker, two months ago, on April 8.

What is the minister going to do, or what is he doing, to

accelerate the application process and to flatten this application

process, recognizing many of the businesses actually should be eligible

for a couple or, perhaps, all three of these programs? If they provide

the financial information and the other required documents in one

program, perhaps they shouldn’t have to provide the same level of

documentation in subsequent programs. Maybe that’s not the

problem.

What is the minister going to do to significantly expedite the

application process and the adjudication times here so that the 50 to 60

percent of the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been approved

by this Legislature to support small businesses actually get pushed out

the door in weeks from now, not months from now?

[2:40 p.m.]

The Chair: Minister.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you, hon. Chair. Welcome to the chair.

There is, I guess, a whole bunch of things. I think it’s been

clear from the beginning that since I’ve become minister, we have been

nimble.

[2:45 p.m.]

We have adjusted programming as needed. We’ve taken feedback.

We’ve listened. We’ve created tables and had meaningful exchanges with

all our stakeholders and adapted good ideas to our programs from the

beginning.

As the member will know — we’ve talked about this — the pandemic

has changed, needs have changed along the way. I mean, we created a

circuit breaker program within days, which was extraordinary, a real

credit to the civil servants within the B.C. government for the amazing

work that they’ve done. We’ve listened. We’ve adjusted. We’ve been

nimble.

Staff inform me that they have had so many positive conversations

with those applying about the recovery plan portion of it. Many

businesses that have applied really appreciate, in the conversations

with our adjudicating team, the process of building a recovery plan.

Many of them haven’t had to think about that. Of course, some of the

larger operations have the means to do this, but a lot of the small

businesses haven’t had to think about that. The adjudicating team

highlights the positive interactions that they’ve been having with

businesses on that.

The member highlighted that it’s possible that businesses can get

multiple applications and grants. It’s very possible for a restaurant to

have gotten the small business recovery grant, the circuit breaker and

the launch online as well as getting tuition covered for the digital

bootcamp. That’s significant for many businesses.

I think it’s also important for the member to note that staff have

shared that it’s not a simple process like the government’s programs in

the past, where you’re rejected or you’re approved, and it’s over. There

is a lot of back-and-forth that happens. The adjudicating team has been

working very closely with every applicant, not just to say, “You’re

rejected,” but to say: “Have you considered this in your application?

Can we suggest this? Maybe you can apply for a greater dollar amount,

because if you readjust your paperwork….”

They highlight the fact that the small and medium-sized business

grant program is high-touch. It’s back and forth. They’ve expressed that

some businesses didn’t file taxes, so they had to wait for people to go

back and file their taxes. Often the case is that these businesses have

never applied for a government program, ever. This is the first time

they’re applying for a government program.

The adjudication team shares with me that there are a lot of

emotions. Not only are they spending time with folks on the application,

they’re also talking to them, because we’re all going through a very

traumatic experience in our lives.

To have someone on the other end to understand and listen to a

small business owner and their frustrations and their anxieties about

what they’re going through is very important. I think it often gets

overlooked in the thinking around this as approved or not approved —

that there are real human beings involved. I appreciate the work that

our team is doing to ensure that there is a conversation. The door is

open. We continue to be flexible.

The other program, the Alacrity Canada program, is very similar.

And, of course, the circuit breaker program was launched, again, in

record time. I’m sure the member has more questions on them.

T. Stone: Well, I don’t take issue with the hard-working public service that

are, I’m certain, working long days and probably have been under a

tremendous amount of stress and anxiety as they’ve been working with

people day in, day out that have been going through their own challenges

and stress and anxiety. My issue is the amount of time it has taken this

government to create programs and push them out the door and push the

money out the door.

[2:50 p.m.]

I will say again, the small and medium-sized business recovery

grant was created and launched on October 9, eight months ago. By the

minister’s own numbers, just under 50 percent — it’s actually 49.8

percent — of the dollars are actually out the door. How is that

possible, eight months since the program was created and actually 14

months since the beginning of the pandemic and the approval of the

funding to support businesses? How is that possible?

On top of which, the launch online, as I said, launched in early

February — so four months ago. It only has 37.9 percent of the dollars

out the door. That’s in a four-month period. That’s, apparently, on a

program that’s been oversubscribed, that the minister had to put

additional dollars into because of the uptake and interest.

Last but not least, I understand that — certainly, by this

government’s track record — the creation of the circuit breaker grant,

he says, was created in days. Well, fair enough. By this government’s

track record, that’s pretty fast. But even that program has been out

there for a number of weeks. It was launched on April 8. So that’s two

months ago, and we’re sitting here with 40.4 percent of dollars in that

$130 million program out the door.

The minister’s comments about nimbleness, meaningful and positive

feedback, being adaptable, engaging stakeholder conversations — all this

is all fine and dandy. But this Legislature approved hundreds of

millions of dollars in supports for small businesses, at least half of

which, by the account of these three programs, hasn’t actually made it

to the small businesses that need the help. That is wrong.

So I will ask the minister again: what is he doing to fix that?

What is he doing to actually speed this process up? Will he commit to

hiring some more people to help with the application process? Will he

commit to modifying the eligibility requirements on these programs, if

required?

He knows, and I know, of lots of businesses that have fallen

through the cracks. We’ll talk about some of them in the moment that,

frankly, haven’t been eligible for any of these grants and need help.

They’re sitting there looking at hundreds of millions of dollars that

haven’t been pushed out the door yet in these programs, wondering:

“Well, why is my situation not important enough? Why do I not warrant

actually being successful in applying for some funding?”

I’m asking on behalf of thousands of small business owners out

there, hard-working men and women who have risked everything. The

average business has taken on $170,000 of debt to try and survive this

pandemic. Many have seen their revenues drop to next to nothing. What is

the minister doing today to accelerate the approvals of these different

grant programs so that in a couple weeks we could be having the

conversation around maybe 80 percent of the funds being out the

door?

A couple of weeks after that, let’s make the goal that we’ve got

all the funds out the door so that this support actually can be put to

use to prevent any further businesses from having to close permanently

or not be able to bring their employees back as quickly as they

otherwise would, and give some certainty that these businesses are going

to be able move forward with more confidence in the months

ahead.

[2:55 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, I appreciate the questions from the member opposite. When

he was referring to the circuit breaker, he said that for this

government’s standards, getting a circuit breaker up and running in a

few days might be good. I was really curious about that. When, in his

experience, has he ever seen a program or has he, himself, put a program

together that was up and running in a few days?

Perhaps he can share from his experience — or perhaps any time in

government that he can reflect on — when a program was created in that

timely manner. I think it would be a good opportunity for me to hear

about that.

Now, the question the member had was: what are we doing to help

expediate the process? We hired additional staff in March to go through

the process. As we saw through the adjudication team, where there was

high touch, where businesses wanted to talk and discuss their

applications, we wanted to ensure that there was staff to be there to

support them.

I think it’s easy, talking about numbers, to forget the fact that

the small and medium-sized business recovery grant program has already

helped over 10,000 businesses here in British Columbia. Often we talk

about one business. Can this business get money? Can this business? Just

take a step back and think about over 10,000 businesses, 260,000 staff

that have been supported through this process. It’s quite

significant.

If you look, since June 2020, we have seen a net increase in

businesses opening — every single month since June 2020. That is quite

significant. How is that happening in the middle of a pandemic? It’s

because of the significant supports that are in place via government.

We’ve talked about it.

Of course, the member would like to talk about just one program as

the only program for supporting businesses. If he would like, I am happy

to go through the entire list again. We do have plenty of time. But

he’ll know that it’s a very comprehensive amount of support that we’ve

put in place.

[3:00 p.m.]

I haven’t even touched on the supports the federal government put

in place. We work closely with the federal government to ensure that

whatever programs we put in place are complementary and fill in needs

that, perhaps, their programs didn’t address. I’m sure, on further

questions, I can go through that entire list for the member

again.

T. Stone: Well, I’ll say this: thank God that the federal government came to

the table with CERB, with the rent subsidy program, with the range of

other business supports that were provided — the wage subsidy program.

Thank God, because the overwhelming support, in terms of direct supports

and relief for business, has actually not come from this government here

in British Columbia; it’s come from the federal government in

Ottawa.

What this government has tended to do is tag along and try to ride

on the federal government’s coat-tails, as they did with the rent

subsidy program. But the big dollars have come from the federal

government. So if the minister is now going to transition to a component

of estimates here by trying to take credit for federal dollars, I think

that’s patently ridiculous.

I want to just ask a few questions about some specific businesses.

I’ve asked the question in here a few times. Why, if we’ve got 50

percent of the funding still sitting in the government’s bank account,

not sitting in small businesses’ bank accounts, 50 percent of the

funding, roughly, across these three programs that we’ve been talking

about for an hour or so here today…. As one solution moving forward to

get the money out the door, why not look at expanding the eligibility a

bit, based on cases that have been denied and, frankly, have been denied

for ridiculous reasons?

The minister would know well that I have spoken about a number of

businesses that have come to me, and we’ll have other examples from

other colleagues later today. He’ll recall that I’ve asked a few times

in this House about the Ohana Market in Sun Peaks. Bobbe Lyall, a young

woman, pursued her dreams, started a small business. She started the

business up in late 2019. She has struggled all year — all through 2020

and into 2021. They’re still standing. They’re making it work, but just

barely.

We asked the question of the minister many months ago, and said

their issue — the Ohana Market in Sun Peaks — is that the eligibility

requirements for the small and medium-sized business recovery grant

provides for a requirement that you have to show a profit in 2019.

They’re a new business. They couldn’t show a profit in 2019, and they

only started in late 2019. They also didn’t qualify, because they hadn’t

been in business for the full required 18 months. I mean, these are like

artificial lines that are drawn in the sand.

I asked the questions in this House, and obviously, the ministry

is paying attention. A really decent, hard-working individual within the

ministry reached out to Bobbe, just to understand her situation and to

ask for a few more details — and presumably to try to help, so fair

enough. But it’s what I said to the minister prior to that engagement

happening. I said that you can have somebody call her, but unless you

change the eligibility requirement requiring being in business for 18

months and having a positive cash flow in 2019, she’s not going to

qualify. So you’re wasting her time, and you’re wasting your staff’s

time. Nevertheless, someone from the ministry called.

Well, just the other day, May 28, I get an email from Bobbe, an

update, and I want to read it into the record, because I just think this

reflects well an example of the thousands of businesses out there that

have been excluded from these grants and, certainly, haven’t been

eligible for those that they should be.

She says to me, on May 18:

“Hello, Todd. I just thought I would follow up with you with regards

to the B.C. recovery grant.

[3:05 p.m.]

“After you spoke about Ohana, I did hear from the ministry. They

were kind, and initially felt that with the actual occupancy from the

resort, we could qualify. So they encouraged me, and I did go through

the process of applying and felt quite optimistic based on our

conversation.

“After over a month of waiting, with no contact, I reached back out

to see if there had been any movement. After another week, I did finally

hear back that we don’t qualify, because we don’t show positive cash

flow prior to the pandemic.”

Again, they opened on December 25, 2019. December was a negative

month, from a cash flow perspective. January was negative. February was

negative. But they were able to just eke out their existence as a

business as they have gone through this pandemic.

She goes on to say: “I feel all of our choices have expired. I

know that we are almost through this, and we’ve been holding on. I’ve

pivoted, and my team has worked incredibly hard. I’ve been down every

other rabbit hole there is, and my business cannot sustain any more

loans.” She goes on to talk about the level of debt that she’s had to

take on as a result of the pandemic.

This is an example of one of many small businesses that…. They

don’t understand. I don’t understand. I don’t think British Columbians

understand why this particular business, Ohana Market, on behalf of many

other businesses that are in exactly the same situation….

Why are they not eligible for the small and medium-sized business

recovery grant? Why will the minister not change the eligibility

criteria so that they are eligible to receive a little bit of support

that would go a long ways to helping this small business stay in

business and continue to serve the community where they’re located and

employ about a dozen people?

[3:10 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, the member gave a glowing endorsement of the federal

Liberal government: “Thank God for the federal Liberal government.” I’m

sure they’ll find that quote and use that glowingly.

Again, I’ve highlighted for the member on several occasions in

these estimates — and I appreciate we’re only on day 2; by day 4, I’ll

hopefully have hammered away home — the amount of supports that we’ve

been able to provide here for businesses in British Columbia, for

important businesses.

The member mentioned a specific business. Of course, I can’t look

up the specific business and what they qualified for or what they

didn’t, but from the sounds of his description, I certainly hope that he

had advised them to apply for the circuit breaker too, if they’re a

restaurant, because that would have been money available for them. I’m

sure the member, being a good critic, would have informed them that that

would have been the best course of action. I’ll leave that with the

member.

Now, he’s got quotes of a business that was hoping to apply. I’ve

got hundreds of quotes from businesses that applied and received the

grant.

We had Whistler VIP Mountain Holidays. They reached out to us with

comments. They said:

“I want to say a big thank-you to the people that work for our

provincial government who made this possible. It’s been a difficult time

for artists running small businesses.

“This grant started making a difference when I was making the plan.

Just to have a sense of direction is huge. It gave me hope. The funding

and plan really add to my optimism and enthusiasm for opening up again

and keeping my belief alive of hanging on to a business through

difficult times. I have more energy every day, and this enthusiasm

spreads to the community. I can sleep at night now, and that gives me

more creative energy to make a plan that works.

“Thank you.”

This is actually a business in Prince George. VIP Mountain

Holidays originally had their plan to entice more Canadians to visit

Whistler, but with the travel restrictions, they were able to pivot and

promote to a new audience in Vancouver and local tourism.

We had a business in Coquitlam that was grateful because they were

able to use the money from their small and medium-sized recovery grant

program and then leveraged the launch online program and used their

contribution from the small and medium-sized recovery grant program to

be their contribution for the launch online program, which allowed them

to improve their website, hire an online marking team and do

advertisement. They’re extremely grateful.

There are businesses in Vancouver that have been writing. We’ve

employees and is helping refugees with employment, that talked about how

the program was very easy for them to apply and how grateful they are

for the funds.

We can go on at great lengths of all the businesses that have been

writing. Again, over 10,000 businesses. I’ve already highlighted to the

member that we hired some additional staff in March to help get the

dollars out quicker.

Originally the program was targeted to support 15,000 businesses.

We have 17,895 fully complete. The member is talking about changing the

program, and what I’m telling the member is: we have. We’ve adjusted the

programs and listened to the business community. That’s why we’re seeing

the dollars we’re seeing, the amount of businesses we’re seeing that

were applying. That’s why we’ve added additional dollars to the fund,

from $300 million, originally, to up to $430 million — so we can support

more businesses as we’ve gone through this pandemic.

[3:15 p.m.]

Surely you can agree that having a target of 15,000 and seeing

17,895 come in already is a positive for British Columbia.

T. Stone: Well, 10,000 businesses that he keeps referencing is about 2

percent of the 530,000 small businesses in British Columbia. So there

are a heck of a lot of businesses out there that are not getting the

support.

Frankly, to respond to Bobbe Lyall, who owns Ohana Market up in

Sun Peaks and is being left out in the cold because of an artificial

eligibility requirement that requires her to be cash flow–positive in

2019 and in business for 18 months prior to the date of application….

It’s cold comfort and frankly, I would say, insensitive to skate past

her concerns and simply start rattling off quotes from other

businesses.

I know there are businesses out there that have been able to apply

for and receive funding from each of these programs. So 40 percent of

some of the programs and 50 percent of others in terms of total revenues

out the door, so obviously, that would mean there are some businesses

that have been successful.

My concern, and the frustration I’m trying to express here, is

that there is still half of all of those dollars that has been not

pushed out the door after many months, in several cases, of these

programs existing. There are a lot of businesses that actually need the

help that can’t get the help because of these artificial eligibility

requirements that remain in place.

I would again ask the minister if he is willing to entertain a

modification in the eligibility requirements related to businesses that

either haven’t been in business for the full 18 months prior to the date

of application or are businesses that, for whatever reason, were not

cash flow–positive in 2019. Will the minister consider changing the

eligibility requirements on those two fronts, which I would suggest

would then result in a whole bunch of additional businesses being

eligible for the support that they need? Will the minister do that to

help these businesses out?

[3:20 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, the member has referred to some details about a specific

business, and, of course, I’m not able to go into the specifics of that

business and their particular application. Again, I do hope that the

member had urged them in his discussions to apply for the circuit

breaker, which probably would have been available for them. I think it’s

important to highlight for the member, again, the other supports that

we’ve put in place that do benefit businesses.

Of course, I’ve highlighted already that early on in the pandemic,

in March, we had deferred property taxes, cut property taxes, deferred

other pressures that businesses were facing. We put in rules to ensure

that there weren’t commercial evictions happening. We forgave three

months of Hydro bills. Of course, tax credits for hiring and rehiring

employees and PST breaks for purchase of new equipment.

If it’s a business that has online sales, they can apply for

launch online. If they serve liquor, of course, they benefit from the 25

percent reduction in liquor pricing. Of course, that’s made permanent.

There’s a whole host of other supports.

At this point, hon. Chair, hopefully I can request a five-minute

recess.

The Chair: You may request, and I will grant that request. Thank you,

Minister.

The committee is in a five-minute recess.

The committee recessed from 3:25 p.m. to 3:36 p.m.

[N. Letnick in the chair.]

The Chair: Member for Kamloops–South Thompson, Kamloops

Blazers.

T. Stone: I like that, Mr. Chair. Kamloops Blazers did win the division this

year and last year.

I wanted to move on. There are a few groups that have really

struggled for funding or haven’t been eligible for supports. The first

one…. I’m hoping that this is a really simple, straightforward question

for the minister, with a simple, straightforward answer back. It should

be an easy one for him.

We’ve profiled in this chamber, in question period, the lack of

eligibility for ANAVETS for receipt of the circuit breaker. Originally,

the legions weren’t eligible either. We brought that issue into the

House. We were really pleased for legions around the province that the

government decided to make legions eligible for some support, about $1½

million I believe — really pleased that legions are going to get the

support that they need.

If we can just reiterate, most legions in the province generate a

significant amount of their revenue, which really is make-or-break in

covering their operating costs, via the kitchens that they operate — the

lounges, the bars, the social events that they’re able to put on. They

operate, for all intents and purposes, as a lounge/restaurant, various

days and hours depending on the legion and the province.

So when the circuit breaker was brought in, the legions were

impacted as much as any other hospitality organization. Obviously,

legions have been impacted throughout this pandemic. So it was the right

thing to do. We were pleased to profile the issue on behalf of legions,

and we were pleased to see that the legions were finally provided

supports.

But we were shocked that ANAVETS, of which there are 18 locations

— 18 ANAVETS units — across British Columbia, including in my hometown

in Kamloops, but all over the province…. ANAVETS is also an organization

comprised of veterans that looks and feels and operates very similarly

to legions. ANAVETS, despite some assertions to the contrary from

government over the last week or so, have written to the

province.

[3:40 p.m.]

Again, they were shocked — we were shocked — that when the

government finally reversed its position on the legions and decided to

make legions eligible for the circuit breaker, the ANAVETS weren’t

included in that. It just makes no sense. Even if you just said that at

a rate of $10,000 per ANAVETS unit…. I mean, we’re talking about 18

units, so $180,000 is the number. We’re not talking about millions

here.

I’m hoping that the minister’s answer will be the right one here.

The right thing to do is just to say: “We acknowledge that ANAVETS

should be included. We are doing the work right now to make sure that

that comes to pass.”

To the minister, are he and his government going to do good by the

ANAVETS organizations, the 18 units in British Columbia, as soon as

possible by making ANAVETS eligible to receive the circuit breaker or

some comparable level of funding in recognition of the support that they

need, the impacts that they have felt, the good work that they do and

what they represent in communities across British Columbia?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thanks to the member for the question. Of course, the Army, Navy

and Air Force Vets in Canada play a very important role. We understand

there are 18 units across B.C. We have received the letter from them

regarding wanting additional supports. I have mentioned in question

period, and I’ll say it again, that we are also in conversations with

Veterans Affairs Canada. They could be doing, I think, more to support

these organizations.

That being said, we’ve received the letter, and we’re working on

that. We’ll have more to say as the staff continue to discuss with them

about their needs. So more to report later.

T. Stone: Just as a matter of follow-up on that. We heard the same response

the other day. I’m not sure why the minister — the Premier, I believe,

said it too — would be in any way deferring to the federal government or

Veterans Affairs on this.

The ANAVETS is very similar in look and feel and structure as the

legions are. So if the government were able to put a package together or

a program in place to support the legions…. I don’t understand why

engagement and consultation with the federal government and Veterans

Affairs Canada are needed.

[3:45 p.m.]

Nonetheless, I’ll just ask the minister this. Can the ANAVETS

organizations across British Columbia expect that they will receive

support from this government?

Hon. R. Kahlon: As I’ve already said to the member, we’ve received the letter.

We’re considering it, and we’ll get back to the member and, of course,

them as quickly as possible.

T. Stone: Well, I don’t know why it’s so hard. Eighteen ANAVETS units across

the province at $10,000 each would be $180,000. It’s not even a rounding

error in most ministries.

The government provided supports, I would point out, after a fair

bit of pressure from the legions themselves and from the official

opposition. I would say let’s get on with it. Do good by the men and

women who have served our country. Get them the support they need so

that their ANAVETS organizations remain viable moving

forward.

Speaking of…. Another group that is quite perplexed as to why they

haven’t received support from this government, certainly not at the

level commensurate with the pain that they have faced, is British

Columbia’s live events industry. The minister would know well that there

are all kinds of businesses in communities across this province that

operate within the live events sector.

They provide a wide range of support services. Often it’s couched

as audiovisual supports, and so forth, but it’s so much more than that,

so much broader. These are the support companies that make concerts and

graduation ceremonies possible. They’re the companies that make

conventions and conferences possible. They’re the companies that, in

many ways, make events like the PNE possible.

They are feeling left out and lost in the mix here in terms of a

lack of support from the province. The refrain in the sector at the

moment is: “We make a living by not being seen in putting all these

events on. We aren’t seen. Today we’re not feeling heard. Our concerns

don’t seem to be relevant to the government.”

For a little bit more context, I’ll read a few examples into the

record. The first is Briere Production, Chris Briere. They’re based in

Burnaby. He says…. Obviously, their sector has been shut down almost

entirely. You have to think about that. There are few sectors…. Even

restaurants weren’t shut down completely for the entire 14 months. The

live events sector has been shut down.

[3:50 p.m.]

Now, some have been able to pivot, which is a grossly overused

term, frankly. They’ve been able to put on very modest online events and

those kinds of things, which might account for 5 or 10 percent of what

their normal revenue would be. For all intents and purposes, the sector

has been shut down for the entire 14 months of the pandemic.

Briere Production — their losses have been mounting. They’re

anywhere from $50,000 to $200,000 in the red every single month through

this pandemic. They are going to end this pandemic with two to three

times the amount of debt that they had before the pandemic. They’ve had

to let go 200 contractors, and they’ve cut their full-time staffing

complement in half.

They’ve watched as over 200 events that they had on their calendar

for 2020 just didn’t happen. We all know why. The question isn’t: should

the events have happened? We know that they couldn’t because of health

restrictions, which were in place because of the pandemic. But there has

been a significant lack of support from the government.

The insult to injury for these companies is that they were not

eligible for the circuit breaker. You’ve got restaurants and pubs and

others — fitness centres — that get the circuit breaker. Fair enough.

They absolutely need it. The live events sector has been like…. It’s not

like a circuit. You’ve shut down all the power coming into the building,

right at the street level. The entire industry has gone dark.

Mike Miltimore, up in Kamloops — Lee’s Music — has seen their

employee complement go from 30 down to six. Their revenue has declined

80 percent. They’ve had virtually…. Every single one of their events

over the last 14 months had to be cancelled. They, again, are quite

worried about what the future looks like because of the level of debt

that they have.

You have to remember that these businesses are capital-intensive.

There are significant investments that they have to make in equipment in

order to be able to put live events on. That equipment doesn’t make

money for the company sitting in a warehouse. Again, very frustrated at

the lack of support commensurate with the pain and the shutdown that

they’ve experienced.

When you look at John Donnelly of the MRG group, they’ve lost $30

million over the last year. Tim Lang of Proshow has had a $10 million

revenue loss. He has a 75 percent revenue decrease, year over year.

They’ve had to let go a significant number of their staff.

Literally just today I received a note from Isaac Kinakin of Scene

Ideas. I’ll read part of it into the record. He says:

“We’re based in Richmond. We, basically, would work with concerts,

music tours and festivals, corporate events, trade shows, exhibitions,

experiential marketing and theatre. As you can imagine, we lost all of

our business last year, starting in January. What was once a $5 million

gross annual business with 30 employees went to zero — no revenue and no

employees. Since then, we have struggled. We have incurred a lot of debt

and made many pivots.

“I’m writing to you because I’m desperate, I’m tired, and I’m,

frankly, at my breaking point. I’m fed up with the current government,

their lack of compassion and their lack of understanding of what has

happened to my industry, as well as their constant ambiguous information

they’ve been giving us. Once again we have been denied funding, even

though we supply restaurants and bars, and we’re affected by the circuit

breaker shutdown. On top of that, we have been shut down since the

beginning with no hope in sight until possibly September, while

restaurants and bars have actually been able to stay open throughout

this whole ordeal.”

A bit of anger there — frustration, obviously — and a tremendous

amount of pain that companies in this space are facing.

[3:55 p.m.]

I would suggest that if the province doesn’t step up and do good

by this sector, something is going to happen that is going to shock and

is going to surprise a lot of British Columbians this summer and into

the fall. They’re going to expect that music in the park festival in

their downtown park or that live concert that had been rescheduled or

had been postponed several times or that convention that is always held

in a particular community every year, save the last couple of

years.

These events are not going to be there. They’re not going to be

there because the support companies — the hard-working men and women

that work in this industry, the live events sector — aren’t going to be

there to be able to put these events on. How sad that would be,

particularly coming out of the pandemic, as everybody gets their second

vaccination, and we continue to hopefully see COVID numbers fall, as

they are, and the future looks promising.

The sector needs help. So I’d like to ask, with that lengthy

introduction…. Instead of asking five or six separate questions about

specific companies, I thought I would put them all in one question

there, just to set the context for the pain and the frustration that

this sector is experiencing.

I would ask the minister if there is any work underway in the

ministry to provide additional supports to this sector in recognition of

the fact that they have been, essentially, closed for 14 months. As part

of that, will he extend the eligibility of the circuit breaker or

fashion a program that provides necessary supports for the live events

sector? They desperately need the help, and they need it now.

[4:00 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I thank the member for the question. I, too, look forward to the

time when we’re able to all be in a park and see live events and music.

Who knows, I may even drop into his backyard to enjoy some of those

events as we get more vaccinations. Certainly, something my family wants

to do is to travel, hon. Chair, to your backyard, but we’ll stop in the

beautiful city of Kamloops, I’m sure, on the way.

I appreciate his concerns that we certainly want to support as

many businesses and as many of our sectors as we can. I know that the

Parliamentary Secretary for Arts and Film, who comes from the music

industry, has been a very passionate advocate for businesses in this

sector. He’s been meeting with many of them along the way.

I think it’s important for the member to know that we’ve had 144

event-types of businesses apply for the small and medium-sized business

recovery grant program to date. If there’s any business that hasn’t

applied, I strongly recommend that they apply, as have

others.

Then there are funds through Creative B.C. for live music. That is

out there. Of course, they’ll have more details. I know that arts and

culture had a resilience plan fund of $35.8 million that may also be

helpful to them. Of course, Tourism, Arts and Culture has a lot of the

funds that are targeting the live music industry in particular. Perhaps

a question to the minister there, during estimates…. You might be able

to get more details on some of those programs that they’ve

launched.

T. Stone: Yes, I think it’s an important contribution to this discussion

that a number of these companies are in various stages with the small

and medium-sized business recovery grant program. A couple have been

successful that I’m aware of. For example, Proshow, I believe, was

successful with a $45,000 grant.

[4:05 p.m.]

The point that I think needs to be made, however, is this is a

company that has lost $10 million. A $45,000 grant from the province of

British Columbia for a company that has lost $10 million is appreciated.

It’s better than nothing. But it’s certainly not going to help that

company bridge the gap.

I have listed off some of the levels of financial loss that these

businesses have realized. The point is they need way more support to

remain viable and to be standing after the pandemic is over than what

they have been eligible to receive up to this point. They weren’t

eligible for the launch online grant. They weren’t eligible for the

circuit breaker grant, which, frankly, added insult to injury for an

industry, a sector, that has been closed for the entire 14-month

period.

Let me just, for the minister’s benefit, add a little bit more

context here. Again, this business is very representative of many others

in this sector. That’s the Briere Production Group. They wrote to me,

and they said: “Here is a list of all of the programs that we have

either been denied for or we never heard back from or we weren’t

eligible for in the first place.”

They did get some wage and rent subsidies from the federal

programs. That covered about 20 percent of their monthly fixed costs.

Okay, great. You’ve got 80 percent of the monthly fixed costs still to

worry about.

They were denied business interruption insurance. They were denied

funding through the 2020 federal arts and culture COVID-19 relief fund.

That was a $500 million fund, only $20 million of which, by the way, was

set aside for the live events sector. The program received ten times the

applications for the budget available.

Number four, they were denied direct funding support through

Canadian Heritage. Then they found out on April 6, 2021, that the recent

$181 million top-up of Canadian Heritage would not provide any funds.

There would be no funds, as part of that, made available to the live

events sector.

They were denied funding provincially for the launch online grant,

denied funding for the B.C. circuit breaker relief grant.

This is a sector that is not receiving near the supports that they

need to remain viable. They have suggested that one solution could be

the creation of — call it whatever you want, but for the lack of a

better phrase — a culture restart program that could be, actually,

delivered by Creative B.C. Creative B.C. has the Amplify fund, at the

moment — got a vehicle that’s already in place there. It wouldn’t

require creating anything new.

What it requires is for the government to actually put some funds

into this program so that the companies that support events, like the

ones I have listed here today, are actually able to receive some

meaningful support, again, that’s commensurate with the fact that

they’ve been shut down for the entire pandemic.

Will the minister advise this House if he and his government are

working on such a program? Again, it’s a program that would provide

direct supports for the live events sector that is commensurate with the

fact that this sector has been shut down for 14 months.

[4:10 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I think that the member highlighted well how challenging this is

for folks in that sector. I mean, we have talked at great length how

hard this pandemic has been on people and businesses and community

groups and many members of this House. Everyone has been feeling the

challenge.

Of course, the impacts are felt disproportionately — different for

every sector and every person, depending on their circumstance. I

appreciate how challenging it would be not to be able to…. Of course,

there are concerns around the business, but also the people. They love

this. This is their passion. This is their work, and not to be able to

do it in a pandemic is very difficult. I fully acknowledge

that.

[4:15 p.m.]

I’ve had many conversations with the Parliamentary Secretary for

Arts and Film. He comes from this sector, and he talks about the impacts

— he has a loved one in the sector — and what that impact is in real

terms. So I appreciate the member’s question and, of course, the concern

that he has raised.

For the launch online program, he mentioned that they weren’t

available to access that. We did change it for services to be able to

apply. I’m not sure, if they’re doing $10 million a year, if launch

online is something that they would need for their business. That’s more

targeted to smaller businesses that don’t have the means to go online.

But that program is available — I just wanted to correct that — for some

of the smaller live events organizations or businesses. They can

apply.

Of course, I will say that if any business hasn’t applied for the

small and medium-sized business recovery grant program, they should.

Like I’ve already mentioned, we’ve had 144 apply already, and certainly,

anyone that hasn’t, should.

Lastly, I will just say that Creative B.C., obviously, is an

organization that works closely with this sector. I’m sure they’re

having conversations with the Ministry of Tourism, Arts and Culture. If

the member has more detailed questions, I do suggest that he raise those

in estimates with the Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture. She’s very

passionate about the sector as well.

T. Stone: Well, yes, I am aware that the minister’s colleague from Maple

Ridge–Mission has had discussions with this group, as has the Minister

of Citizens’ Services, who represents Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows. I think

it’s part of the frustration that this group is feeling.

Chris Briere says in his letter that to the end of April, they had

had multiple meetings with the Department of Canadian Heritage, with

Creative B.C., Zoom meetings with the two members of the Legislature

that I just mentioned. Richard Davis and Randy from Canadian Heritage,

I’ve already mentioned. They’ve written 60 letters. They’ve had all

kinds of phone calls and whatnot. So this is not a lack of effort on the

part of the live event sector to make sure that they’re seen, that their

issues are understood and that government gets a sense of the pain that

they’re feeling.

As I mentioned earlier, if you’ve lost $10 million this year, if

you’ve lost $2 million this year, a $45,000 recovery grant isn’t going

to go too far, particularly if you’ve lost all of that money and you

haven’t been able to even have much certainty to plan for events for the

short to mid-term. We don’t really know when a lot of these companies

are going to be able to start putting on live events and concerts and

the like. We have a four-phased restart plan, yes, but there’s no

certainty as to where in that plan this sector is actually going to be

able to begin to re-engage and start putting on events again.

And, as it’s been pointed out to me by all of these companies,

they need a heck of a lot more than a few days or a few weeks of lead

time so that they can actually bring staff back and so that they can

actually pick their companies up off the mat, so to speak, and mobilize

and get ready. Events, especially major events, can’t be put on in a

matter of days or even weeks. There’s a lot of lead time

required.

[4:20 p.m.]

I guess I’m just trying to really impress upon the minister the

importance of this sector — the pain that they’re feeling. The recovery

grant is not enough. There are going to be far fewer live events in this

province in the months ahead if the government doesn’t step up with a

meaningful program of supports that provides direct aid to this

sector.

The one final piece that I wanted to ask the minister about,

because it reflects the other major concern of the live event sector, is

one of talent retention and attraction. It’s obviously a massive

challenge to be losing 200, 500, $1 million a month. That’s hitting

these businesses in the here and now. But when they do get the green

light to begin to hold events again, and they start trying to recall

their employees, they are all seriously concerned about whether or not

they’re actually going to be able to have a suite of employees to call

back.

Mike Miltimore said in a recent letter to me: “We desperately need

to hold on to our technicians, as it takes a long time to train these

guys. You can’t just go to school to be an AV tech. We need support to

keep these staff on.” Every single one of these companies has indicated

that this is their next most challenging issue that they need some help

with.

With that background, I’d like to know if the minister could

provide any details on any work that’s underway to develop a talent

retention and training program for the live event sector. Or perhaps it

would be more broadly implemented across other sectors where this is

really going to be a serious, serious business challenge for these

businesses, which have already been hit so hard from a financial

perspective as a result of being shut down for so long.

So is the minister putting together a talent retention and

training program to provide that critical support to the live events

sector?

[4:25 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, thanks to the member for the question. There are a few

programs that we’ve designed that are available for the live events

industry. First, we have the innovator skills initiative that is being

run out of Innovate B.C., which is $15 million. That’s 3,000 spots. That

provides up-to-$5,000 grants for on-the-job training for employers to

bring new workers on the job to learn.

We’ve got an additional $2 million that’s Mitacs, which are,

again, grants available. We can provide this to the member, if he wants,

in writing.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

We also have $7 million that we’ve given to the digital

supercluster. That’s tech-related training and capacity-building. Of

course, AEST has money for micro-credentialing and training, so there

might be some opportunities there. But if the member likes, we can just

put that in writing for him.

[4:30 p.m.]

T. Stone: At this point, I’m going to turn the floor over to a number of

opposition MLAs. I’m pleased to start that off with the Member for

Saanich North and the Islands.

The Chair: Thank you, Member.

Recognizing the member for Saanich North and the

Islands.

A. Olsen: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good to see you today.

Good to see the minister as well.

Thank you to my colleague from Kamloops for giving me this

opportunity to ask a few questions. Just wanting to ask a few questions

around the Emerging Economy Task Force and, as well, the innovation

commissioner.

Let’s start with the Emerging Economy Task Force. I’m just

wondering if we could start with a pretty general question. If the

minister could provide a response to where the government is at in

implementing the report and if any action has been taken.

[4:35 p.m.]

The Chair: Minister.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you, hon. Chair. Welcome back to the chair.

Thank you to the member for the question. I guess a couple of

things. First, I really appreciated the report. I had a chance to read

it very early. In fact, I read it when it first came out, but I go

through it with a different lens now that a lot of the work falls within

our ministry. A lot of the work we’re doing is inspired by the work that

was done by that task force, a very accomplished group of individuals

who put a lot of work into it.

The spirit of the report is very much alive in many of the things

we’re doing, and it’s very much an active document. Obviously, it was

done pre-pandemic. Some things have changed, but a lot of things remain.

I’ve got a lot of details here. I can go through each one, if the member

wants. I’m just looking for him to nod. He does. Okay.

There were 25 recommendations and 40 suggested actions that were

made. There were five strategic priorities that were identified. So 26

of the suggested actions are things that are in my ministry alone that

we’re working on. So I’ll go through each of them.

One of the recommendations was to strengthen the ecosystem for

innovation, commercialization, scale-up companies. In our ministry, in

JEDC, we have the venture acceleration program, which is being run

through Innovate B.C. and which provides about $2.7 million annually,

and the small business venture capital tax credit program. We have

ongoing sector and cluster development work that’s being done by our

ministry that aligns with some of the work that the B.C. digital

technology supercluster initiative is working on.

We have been working to ensure the alignment and coordination of

all the ITD branches, especially for some of these acronyms: the TIR

team, the ISBs, who profile and aggressively market high potential areas

to prospective investors. Working on digital infrastructure and super

computers at SFU and UVic. Working on digital infrastructure.

[4:40 p.m.]

As I’ve mentioned, we’re going through a review of intellectual

property and policies. We’ll be hosting and anchoring forums with IP

experts in the tech sector, academia, Innovate B.C. and government

ministries to discuss approaches to keep made-in-B.C. intellectual

property here in British Columbia.

Of course, the export navigator program plays an important role,

which was highlighted in that recommendation. I won’t go into too much

more detail, but I can happily provide the member, on recommendation 1,

more details, if he likes.

Recommendation 2 was: “Foster technology adoption to generate

economic, environmental and social benefits.” Of course, Innovate B.C.

is mandated to support the growth of innovative technology in B.C.

sectors through programming, funding, government support, policy

development and other related initiatives. There was the innovation

commissioner report which echoed many of the pieces, as well. We

provided, through CivicInfo B.C., seed funding — invested $17 million in

a new Quantum Algorithms Institute. Food Security Task Force report

recommendation 2 is something that comes from emerging task force — the

work that they had done.

The other recommendation was: “Enhance the financing options

available in the emerging economy.” Of course, InBC obviously is a

critical part of that. We are doing B.C. chamber engagement sessions to

support the work of our ministry across government in annual engagements

with the B.C. Chamber of Commerce and its members. We’re working closely

with strategic partners to alleviate awareness of the capital needs and

potential matching that can be done through institutional investors and

other sources of capital.

Number 4. We had to become a leader in smart regulation. So JEDC

has developed a policy framework and tools, like the Policy

Approaches Playbook , to support ministries and identify

opportunities for regulatory innovation. Small Business Task Force

report recommendations 2 and 3 also maintain the province’s commitment

to avoiding excessive regulations for small businesses. And of course,

Food Security Task Force also had recommendations on that.

Recommendation 6 was: “Capitalize on B.C.’s vertically integrated,

clean power advantage.” Of course, you’ll see a lot of that in CleanBC

and in phase 2 of B.C. Hydro’s review.

Number 7 was: “Take advantage of growing global demand for green

economy products and services.” You’ll see some of that work in the

low-carbon industrial strategy, the ICE fund supports for clean tech and

some advanced manufacturing. We have the industrial cluster strategy —

Surrey innovation corridor, mech tech alley; Foresight Cleantech cluster

initiatives; work we’re doing with FPInnovations. Innovate B.C. has a

program, of course, that I’ve highlighted already, the venture

acceleration program. The Ignite program. Clean tech scale-up

pilot.

Of course, we have the provincial nominee program tech pilot,

which now we’ve made permanent. We announced that just within the last

two weeks. Green building training. International trade and marketing

strategy. I can go on at great lengths, but I’ll make sure that the

member gets this, maybe, in writing. I see him smiling on the

screen.

I’ve got four or five pages, so I think it might be more, either….

I can get the member a more detailed briefing on this, instead of going

through all the four pages. But I’ll just say, in respect to his

question, that it was an important report. Both that and the previous

innovation commissioner’s report I found quite useful. A lot of those

principles are guiding the work that we’re doing now and certainly will

guide the work as we go forward.

A. Olsen: I appreciate the exhaustive answer. We almost used the full 15

minutes that was available to the minister. It’s good to hear that that

work is being implemented across government. Clearly, it is across

ministries that this innovation is going to take place.

[4:45 p.m.]

I’m wondering about the role of the current innovation

commissioner and, sort of, the accountability aspects of it. Perhaps the

minister could highlight — and we can ask this question in estimates —

whether or not there are going to be any reports that are done to

consolidate the work as progress is done against that report. Or are

these just going to be recommendations that are going to be implemented

over time and that we don’t really have a consolidation of the work and

tracking to completion?

[4:50 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I thank the member for letting me share that information, too, in

writing, because I was only on No. 6 of 40. We don’t have enough time

today for me to get through all of that.

But to the member’s point. Off the top, I want to thank Alan

Winter for the excellent work he did in that report that he put in. If

you look through the recommendations that he had made — support

innovation clusters, capitalize on the strength of CleanBC, help

entrepreneurs protect IP, retain talent and help businesses scale up —

those are core elements that are reflected in my mandate letter. His

work carries on as something that’s integral to the work we’re doing as

we go forward and focus on economic recovery.

I also want to say that the new innovation commissioner has been

fantastic. I really value the experience and insight that she brings to

the role. She meets with our team weekly to discuss what’s happening,

what she’s hearing. She’s going to be an integral part of the work as we

go forward. I really appreciate the amount of experience that she brings

to the table.

So the member’s question was around the reports and how we’re

going to integrate them into the work we’re doing. They align very well

with not only the work that my ministry is doing but many of my

colleagues’. A lot of those elements are being built into the work that

we do going forward. The economic recovery framework that we hope to

launch later in the fall will have key elements of that.

A. Olsen: Thank you, Minister. I appreciate the response. I appreciate the

engagement that you’ve highlighted between your ministry, yourself, as

the minister of your ministry, and Gerri Sinclair. It’s going to be a

good relationship going forward.

I’m just wondering with respect to the reports: is there going to

be — and like I said, other than coming to budget estimates, to the

variety of ministries that are all going to have a responsibility in

innovating — any consolidation of the specific actions that come

out?

Maybe I’ll just add to that. Can we expect to have any further

reports that are going to be coming forward from the new innovation

commissioner that we can then also use as kind of like benchmarks for us

to be able to ask questions of you, the minister, and the ministry, as

we progress through time?

The Chair: Through the Chair, of course.

A. Olsen: Through the Chair, of course. I’m sorry.

The Chair: Quite all right, thank you. Keeps me busy.

[4:55 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: There are a couple of things. I think that the report done by the

Emerging Task Force and the innovation commissioner are very much alive.

I think the member would agree that we might not need a new report given

that many of the elements that have been recommended are very valid

still in the work we’re doing.

The current innovation commissioner may not put a report together

in the same way but is working actively with us, as I said, meeting

weekly with our team as we go forward. Again, I’m happy to even meet

with the member, or even happy, if he would like, for the team to

provide a bit of a briefing for the member.

But my expectation isn’t that she’ll necessarily write a new

report, because we have two reports that are excellent that I think have

elements that are critically important for us still, given even as we

come out of the pandemic.

So those elements will be there, of course. The new innovation

commissioner has some new ideas and brings lots of energy to the work.

We’ll be incorporating both that previous work and some of the ideas

that she has now on our economic recovery framework that we’re working

on, or the plan we’re working on for the fall.

A. Olsen: Thank you to the minister. Absolutely, I recognize that the

landscape has changed since we have those reports and certainly

appreciate perhaps even a different relationship from the previous

ministry as it was constructed. Now things have changed for sure.

Appreciate that.

I think we’d look forward, at some point in the coming weeks or

months, to have a more fulsome briefing. I think that that would be of

value to our caucuses. This was an important — as the minister knows —

aspect of the confidence and supply agreement, so it’s good to just keep

track of those legacy bits of work.

Just a final question around…. It’s a very similar question that I

asked around the innovation commissioner, and perhaps the minister did….

The Emerging Economy Task Force was another body of work that was done

throughout the last parliament. Just wondering if the minister could

also provide just a high-level report to the people through budget

estimates here on the Emerging Economy Task Force, the implementation of

the report that they provided and maybe how that dovetails with the work

that is being done with the innovation commissioner.

Of course, it’s not the same body of work. It’s complementary, so

just perhaps a few comments. Then I’ll be done for the day. I thank the

minister for his responses.

[5:00 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: The focus right now is to implement the findings in the report

that will add to people’s standard of living and help the economy

rebound from the impacts of the pandemic. We’re prioritizing the

recommendations that will have immediate impact and align with the work

of the Premier’s Economic Recovery Task Force and the innovation

commissioner’s report.

Longer term we want to ensure that B.C. keeps its strong economic

position, reducing the impacts global trends could have, taking

advantage of opportunity in all sectors. The member will know that we

have historic funding for connectivity, which was in the budget. That

was an element of the work of the emerging task force.

Again, I’m happy, in the coming weeks and months, as the member

would like, to set up a more thorough discussion about it. I do have

eight pages of things that we’re doing that are related directly to the

emerging task force, but I don’t want to put that member through that,

unless he’s yelling: “More.” I can’t tell from the screen. I’m happy to

provide more information offline if the member likes.

T. Stone: Before I turn it over to a series of colleagues from the official

opposition, following on the interesting discussion between the member

for Saanich North and the Islands and the minister, I just was

wondering. The commitment that the minister made to the member for

Saanich North and the Islands with respect to providing a written update

on the status of implementation of recommendations, both the innovation

commissioner’s report recommendations as well as the emerging task force

recommendations….

I’m just wondering if the minister would be willing to provide a

similar copy of that information to me so that I have the same

information at my fingertips as well.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Yes, of course. We will do that.

T. Stone: Thank you to the minister.

Next up is the illustrious member for Peace River

North.

The Chair: He was so keen. He jumped up right away.

Member for Peace River North.

D. Davies: Thank you, hon. Chair. Yes, very excited about

estimates.

Again, thank you to my colleague from Kamloops North….

Interjection.

D. Davies: Kamloops–South Thompson. I apologize. I’ll give him one free Peace

River South just in case.

A couple questions here. Again, I do appreciate my colleague for

allowing me the opportunity to ask these questions on behalf of a few

constituents and businesses up in the north. I wrote the minister about

a month ago regarding a couple of businesses — Boston Pizza in Fort St.

John and Fort Nelson. Of course, Trevor McNiven was the one individual.

He’s co-owner of Boston Pizza.

I bring this issue forward. The minister did pen a reply, stating

that the individual businesses did not qualify for the grants because

they were co-ownership — I think it was 50 percent or more being in

Alberta. This is a very common thing along our border communities —

Dawson Creek, Fort St. John, straight down in through the Kootenays —

where there’s a lot of commerce, there’s a lot of movement and travel

between the two provinces.

This individual, Trevor…. I know that he lives in Fort St. John.

He runs the Boston Pizza in Fort St. John — as well as the gentleman up

in Fort Nelson, very similarly. He had to lay off almost 60 people

during the circuit breaker. That’s 60 British Columbians that he had to

lay off — people that pay taxes into British Columbia — and Trevor, who

pays taxes into British Columbia.

My colleague from Kamloops–South Thompson brought up earlier that

about 50 percent of the money has gone out the door, and a lot of that

is around the barriers around getting this money out. This is, I

believe, one such barrier. I’m hoping the minister could possibly

elaborate a little more if there has been some reconsideration to look

at some of these businesses, again, that do business in British

Columbia.

[5:05 p.m.]

Just because they have one part-owner that might live in another

jurisdiction outside of British Columbia, they do not qualify for this

funding. I’m hoping the minister can go a little bit beyond his reply

and hopefully offer some hope to these many business owners in British

Columbia.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I appreciate the question from the member for Peace River North.

Just kidding, just kidding. Peace River South. I appreciate his

question.

Interjection.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Is it north? Oh man, I stepped into it now.

Interjection.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’ve been heckled. I’m the MLA for Delta South now. I deserve that

one.

I just wanted to share with the member that 28 businesses in his

riding have received the small and medium-sized business recovery grant.

It’s $655,000 that has directly gone into the pockets of businesses in

his community. I thought that he would appreciate that number. It’s

keeping people employed.

[5:10 p.m.]

Of course, the member is aware that businesses that don’t have

majority-owned shares in a business are ineligible to apply for the

small and medium-sized recovery grant program. The rules don’t specify

that it has to be 100 percent. It just says that it has to be a

majority. Of course, I know that he reached out to us. I believe we’ve

written back, and staff have communicated with him on that

matter.

D. Davies: The $655,000 to the 28 businesses — obviously, it’s appreciated by

those businesses, without a doubt. But my question isn’t about those

businesses. It’s about the businesses that don’t fit in that…. I’ll use

the term. There’s been a line drawn in the sand that makes many

businesses that employ — well, if we use the provincewide — thousands of

British Columbians who pay taxes in this province. These are the people

that are impacted. To penalize these businesses because they may have a

partnership that is outside the jurisdiction only penalizes the province

of British Columbia. It penalizes the economy.

This is where I’m just amazed. My colleague brought this out

earlier, and I mentioned it at the start of my first question. The small

business grants — 49.8 percent of the $430 million is out the door in

eight months. There is light at the end of the tunnel. The pandemic is

winding down. These businesses still need the support. They still need

that help if they’re going to be around when we’re done this pandemic.

The circuit breaker grant — 40 percent out the door. So when we have

this criteria, it doesn’t make sense.

I’ll give you another example. I had the owner of the local KFC

reach out to me. He just moved to the city of Grande Prairie before

COVID, and he is ineligible. His entire business is here in British

Columbia, pays taxes in British Columbia. His employees pay income tax

in British Columbia. But because he happened to make the untimely

decision to move to a community in Alberta just before COVID, he’s now

ineligible.

Again, is there hope on the way for these many businesses, not

only the ones in my riding but across the province of British Columbia,

that have these circumstances? We have the money. We see that. There’s

$215 million left. Let’s get it where it needs to go, supporting these

businesses, and fix what I consider a simple problem that needs to be

fixed.

[5:15 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: At this time, the rationale requiring at least 50 percent…. That

the businesses be owned by a B.C. resident is to ensure that taxpayer

investments are supporting locally owned and operated B.C.

businesses.

That being said, the member will know, and most businesses will

know, that there are tax credits available for hiring and rehiring

employees. There are PST rebates available for any equipment that they

may want to purchase. Of course, they will know that we’ve capped the

food delivery fees for them, which were becoming a bit of a challenge.

And of course, the 25 percent reduction in liquor price that’s now

permanent is a call that they’ve been making for a long time. It’s not

temporary; it’s made permanent. So a whole host of supports, not to

mention the federal government supports.

Just one quick note for the member from Kamloops, because we had a

good exchange around live events. I just wanted to give him an update

that 50 live event companies have actually registered for the digital

marketing bootcamp as well, so we’re seeing the live event sector apply

and take

part in that program as well.

D. Davies: I appreciate the PST rebate on equipment — food delivery fees. It

does no good if they’re not in business. Right now they can’t afford to

be purchasing equipment. They’re barely able to pay for the absolute

bare necessities. These companies…. Again, I’m talking of these

businesses, very specific, that fall into this arbitrary line in the

sand that has been drawn that excludes these businesses from applying

for these grants.

These businesses, make no mistake, pay into the British Columbia

economy. It’s not like this grant money is going to be paid to the

business and be shipped off. It is going to be keeping these small

businesses in business so that they can employ people — again, almost 60

people with the one restaurant. Unfortunately, this company didn’t have

a patio and really struggled during the circuit breaker.

So while those lines that the minister has stated about some

things that have been done…. They are beneficial in some ways. But the

point that I’m trying to make is these companies need the support of the

grant to get them through, to make sure that we have these businesses in

our communities in the coming months so that they can continue to employ

people and keep our local economies moving.

Again, can the minister provide…? The minister can do this. He’s

got $215 million yet to go out the door. We are at the “light at the end

of the tunnel” part of the pandemic. Can we hear today that there is

some hope, when I direct people to this Hansard broadcast? Can we have

some hope for these businesses that fall into this weird middle that

makes them exempt? Can the minister give us…? Again, my question: can

the minister give some hope for these businesses?

[5:20 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, thank you to the member for the question. I think there’s

hope for all British Columbians right now. I think there’s hope for all

businesses, as they see the restart plan. They’ve seen the metrics that

we’re using in decision-making, giving them some certainty on how they

can open up progressively over time. We’ve seen the businesses be able

to return to having six people at a table indoors.

The member mentioned the KFC. I’m not sure if it has a

drive-through, but we’re told by industry leaders that the

drive-throughs are making record dollars, given that many people aren’t

able to go inside, but they’re still wanting to get food. I’m not sure

about the KFC, particularly, in his community, but we’ve been told by

the associations that, overall, they’re seeing record

profits.

Of course, I’ve highlighted some of the programs that are

available to the business that the member spoke of: the 25 percent

liquor pricing, which will help their bottom line considerably with

every sale they make; the tax credits — the PST rebate on equipment;

capping of food deliveries. I’m sure that they’re still seeing lots of

orders coming through online, considering that people are ordering more

and more at home during this pandemic.

The wage subsidy program that the federal government rolled out,

which has now been extended till the end of September, has made a

significant impact. Rental supports are available for businesses.

Commercial tax relief. There’s a whole host of measures — the highest

supports for people and businesses per capita in Canada.

So I appreciate the member’s questions and his advocacy, but the

funds’ intentions were to support B.C.-owned businesses. But all the

other measures, the whole host of measures…. In fact, there are a lot of

federal ones, as well, that I can go through in detail, if the member

likes, that he can share with the business in his community that’s

impacted.

D. Davies: I’m disappointed in the minister’s reply. I know that there are

many businesses in this province that are also going to be quite

disappointed — that, again, fall into this arbitrary rule that penalizes

businesses that employ British Columbians, that won’t qualify for this

support. And while I do agree that, again, things are looking better,

there are many businesses that still today don’t feel they’re going to

be able to hold on.

My next question, moving on. I think one thing that has become

very clear over this past 18 months is supply chain issues. We’ve seen

that across the country, and we’re still feeling the effects of it

today. I don’t know if you’ve tried ordering anything in stores. It’s

backlogged indefinitely — many, many different items.

[5:25 p.m.]

Is the minister…? This is again with a northern perspective. Of

course, northern B.C. is different than Vancouver or Victoria. Are there

any incentives that are being looked at to support manufacturing —

support this angle of operations — in our northern and more rural

communities across the province of British Columbia?

[5:30 p.m.]

[N. Letnick in the chair.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you to the member for the thoughtful question. I know that,

in his region in particular, supply chain resiliency is a big challenge.

I know Mayor Ackerman has been raising this issue as well. I appreciate

him raising it. Just for those that don’t know, this sector is 172,000

good-paying jobs and 7 percent of the provincial gross domestic product.

It’s $17 billion in contribution to our GDP, so it’s

significant.

There are three programs. One is the $10 million accelerating

manufacturing scaleup grant program. We had a $6 million supply chain

resiliency grant program. We’re also funding strategic supply chain

analysis research that was requested as well.

The one fund that I’ll highlight for the member…. There are some

projects that we just recently funded. The

Nisg̱a’a society and Prince

Rupert Chamber of Commerce, $167,000 for developing a food distribution

network in northwestern B.C. We’ve supported the Interior Lumber

Association to develop a computer model that will help identify value

extraction opportunities and improve allocation of available logs to

various manufacturing facilities. We have recently provided $200,000 to

Nature’s Formulae Health Products. That’s the Thompson-Okanagan. There’s

funding for organizations in the Kootenays, etc.

We do have a program right now called the accelerating

manufacturing scaleup grant program. The intake, I believe, just closed

for that. We have gone to PricewaterhouseCoopers to administer the

program. Of course, applicants are eligible for a one-time, 75 percent

funded provincial grant of a maximum up to $250,000 for an individual

business and half a million dollars for group collaboration projects.

Certainly, it’s important work that we’re going to have to continue

doing as we go forward.

J. Tegart: It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you to my colleague for allowing

me some time to ask some questions in regard to businesses, in

particular through the Fraser Canyon.

As you can imagine, it is particularly challenging to run a

successful business in the Fraser Canyon at any time because of traffic

counts, because of traffic flow and because we are demographically very

challenged. I’m going to talk about three businesses that have run

successfully throughout the downturn of the Fraser Canyon.

What happened when the Premier announced new travel restrictions

with the goal of reducing the impacts of COVID is that people took him

at his word, particularly these three businesses — a campground and two

resorts, one in Hope and two in the Boston Bar area.

When the Premier announced on the Monday that they’d be combining

health regions, that Metro and Fraser Health would be combined, and

Interior and Northern Health would be combined, these businesses took a

look at their reservations for the next three weeks. Being good citizens

of British Columbia, they went through their reservations and cancelled

all of their reservations from the Interior Health region because they

were outside their health region.

[5:35 p.m.]

Imagine their surprise on the Friday when the minister announced

that Hope had been taken out of Fraser Health. It was now in Interior

Health — no rhyme, no reason. Every reservation they had was from the

Metro area. They lost all of their reservations for the next three

weeks. And an announcement that was going to affect them until May 25,

on May 25 was extended.

I want to talk particularly about the Blue Lake Resort. I’ve got

an e-mail from him saying:

“So nice for us to have a representative in Victoria who understands

our challenges. She really went to bat for us. Not sure if the NDP

stands for anything, but I do know they stand for everything. Trees:

save them. Trees: cut them. Watching the NDP govern is like laying in a

crib with a baby mobile twisting and turning over our heads: sometimes

something drifting by to look at but nothing we can get our hands

on.

“Thank you to Jackie for your help. We did get a $10,000 grant for

the eight weeks and counting that the travel shutdown cut us off. We

have taken over $45,000 in cancellations to date, and many have

cancelled for the weeks in June and July due to the uncertainty. The

grant doesn’t hurt, but it did not mean that we could hire back our

staff.”

Now, this is a business in and close to Boston Bar. For anyone who

has driven through the canyon, Boston Bar is a pretty small community,

and there aren’t a lot of employment opportunities. So this business was

severely affected, and they were very thankful for the $10,000 grant.

But my question to the minister is: was there any modelling done on the

impact of changing Hope and Boston Bar out of the Fraser Health region

and into the Interior Health region and the impact on

businesses?

[5:40 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you to the member for the question.

I think we can agree that safety is critical — paramount right now

during the pandemic. I think no one wants to put any measures in place

that will impact people and communities, but we’re in a pandemic, and

decisions are being made to keep people safe. I know the member

appreciates that.

I guess, thank you for sharing the email. The email said a lot of

nice things about her, so it’s great that she was able to get that on

the record. It’s great to see that the circuit breaker was available to

them if they qualified for the circuit breaker. I suspect that they

should apply for the small and medium-sized business grant as

well.

I’ll just say that the restart plan as it’s laid out has, at the

minimum, June 15 — which is coming up very soon — as the time for people

to be able to travel. Certainly, the feedback that I’ve got from people

is that they cannot wait to get out of town to travel to different parts

of the province.

All the trend lines continue to go in the right direction. We have

surpassed the metric of people we wanted to see vaccinated. Case counts

continue to go down. All the positive indications are there. I suspect

that businesses are already starting to book travellers for soon after

the projected date, as has been laid out in the restart plan.

J. Tegart: Certainly not the purpose of the reading out of the email, except

to express the frustration that many businesses are feeling in their

applications for different grants and different funding

opportunities.

The second business I want to talk about is REO resort. I know

that we’ve been working with the minister’s office on this one. They

applied in January and were finally contacted April 30 that their

application was denied. Then, the newly announced travel restrictions,

which showed them clearly in the Fraser Health region, cut off all of

their business, because they were now in the Interior Health

region.

When we tried to find out why the change was made, it was very,

very difficult to get a straight answer on why the health regions were

changed — why Hope and Boston Bar were taken out of Fraser Health.

Because it’s only for this period of time, and I can tell you, it’s had

a significant effect.

REO resort has been operating for 39 years. They put in their

application and were rejected because they didn’t show a profit in 2019.

They sent quite a long letter to the minister, I do believe, and to many

others, talking about what they think should be criteria to be

considered for the grants.

They talked about the long-term viability and history of the

business. Not just one year — take a look at how long the business has

been there. The importance of the business to the region for job

creation. The importance of the business as a travel generator to the

area from B.C. and beyond. Also, the significance of the business on a

global level as a tourism motivator for international destination travel

to B.C.

They have contacted my office. The minister’s office has been in

touch with them and is working with them to look at whether there is

some way that they can actually qualify for any kind of grant — the

circuit breaker, the small business grant and whatever that looks

like.

[5:45 p.m.]

They’ve also offered some ideas based on their experience as a

small business operator for the minister to take a look at, as we look

at half the money not even out yet. Maybe there are some criteria that

could be looked at so that more businesses qualify.

REO is, again, a very important employer in the Boston Bar area.

They have a chef. They have a very internationally known yoga

instructor. They do glamping. They are a five-star resort that many

people don’t know about in Boston Bar.

So what I’m asking the minister is: when you review the

applications that have been rejected, are there common threads? And are

you giving consideration, for the next reiteration of funding

opportunities, to other criteria?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Yeah, we canvassed this with the hon. member from Kamloops earlier

— that sometimes government has programs where it’s just, you know,

you’re approved or you’re rejected, and that’s the notice you get. With

this program, what we’ve been doing is that we’ve actually been working

back and forth with businesses.

[5:50 p.m.]

If a business doesn’t quite qualify, we’ve been trying to find

creative ways to work with them to ensure that they can qualify. So

there has been a lot of flexibility built into the way that that program

is being done.

Again, a big thank-you to the staff who have been working so hard

to not only support the businesses to get the funding but also to hear

about the challenges they’re facing. I really appreciate the member

bringing this business forward to us and writing to us. I understand

that they had a really good meeting with our staff and that their

application is proceeding into the system. I’m very hopeful that they’ll

see a positive result.

There is also a digital bootcamp that’s available for many of the

tourism-related businesses. We’ve seen a considerable uptake from

businesses that are in that tourism space to learn about how to be

online. Of course, money is available for launch online to set up that

online e-commerce and the website so they can attract business. Those

programs may be available for this business as well. Our office can

share that with your office if you need.

Then as far as the future — certainly, I think, the member would

agree — I hope we never have to create these kinds of programs in a

pandemic ever again. Certainly, there have been learnings. We’ve been

adjusting the programs as we go, and lots of learnings for the

future.

The Chair: Just a reminder to both the minister and the member: through

the Chair, please.

J. Tegart: Yes, Mr. Chair, through you to the minister. Well, the minister

talks about hope and that we have a lot of hope for the future. I can

tell you the businesses that I’m talking to in the Fraser Canyon just

hope that you put Hope back in Fraser Health. I trust that the minister

will commit to advocating for that, because there seems to be no rhyme

nor reason as to why Hope was taken out.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I know that there are estimates happening on Health, so the member

may want to raise that question. I thought I’d share with the member

that 49 businesses in her community have received the small and

medium-sized business recovery grant program, which is just over $1.1

million. I know that’s significant for businesses and for keeping people

employed in the community. Thanks for the questions — through you, of

course, hon. Chair.

The Chair: Sorry I brought it up.

T. Shypitka: Thanks to the minister for some time here today. It has been a bit

of a good theme that I’ve seen from my colleagues here over about the

last hour or so. That’s identifying, perhaps, some of the cracks in the

system, some of the businesses that have fallen into these cracks. The

member for Peace River North mentioned some cracks for business owners

that live in a different jurisdiction yet can’t apply for some of these

grants.

I wanted to talk to one that is probably the worst of the worst.

We know that tourism is arguably the hardest-hit sector in our economy

during this pandemic. We’ve heard the member for Kamloops–South Thompson

advocate for live events. However, the guide-outfitters, in my opinion,

perhaps are, within the subclass, essentially the hardest hit, as I’ve

said, of all the hardest hit. Instead of me describing to the minister

what these guide-outfitters are going through right now, maybe what I

would like to instead is ask the minister what he knows about

guide-outfitters and how they’re being impacted by this

pandemic.

[5:55 p.m. - 6:00 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thanks to the member for the question. Perhaps the member wasn’t

here when we talked about live events, but I was able to share with the

critic that many in the live events space have received small and

medium-sized business recovery grants. Many have applied for the launch

online program. So dollars were available, but the member perhaps wasn’t

here on that portion of that.

I think that when we talk about disproportionate impacts, the

member and I will agree that guide-outfitters have been

disproportionately impacted. They rely heavily on international

tourists, and it’s been a really challenging time.

I can share with the member that we have seen applications come,

for the small and medium-sized recovery grant program, from

guide-outfitters — I believe 31. Staff met with the guide-outfitters to

encourage them to get all their members to apply. It’s important to note

that they get the tourism top-up for part of their business. It’s up to

$45,000.

So I would encourage the member, if he has guide-outfitters, to

encourage them to apply. Again, our staff have been available to meet

with the guide-outfitters. If the member likes more information about

how they can apply, we certainly can share that with him.

T. Shypitka: Absolutely. I was here when the member for Kamloops–South Thompson

was talking about live events and funding through Creative B.C.

Obviously, those funds aren’t available to guide-outfitters.

The launch online program is something, I guess, that these

guide-outfitters could take advantage of. But the truth of the matter is

that they’ve got their deposits. They’ve got their reservations already.

They don’t need the launch online program to do that for them. The

problem is that they’ve taken deposits. Well over 90 percent of the

clientele that guide-outfitters attract are from outside of Canada,

predominantly from the United States. So apart from the small and medium

business recovery grant, that is all that these guide-outfitters have

had to really had to look forward to.

When you talk about the ongoing operating costs that these folks

go through…. They still have their licensing fees, their tenure fees.

Taxes on their tenure, such as school tax. They pay land tax. They also

pay taxes on buildings — cabins and outbuildings and such like that.

That’s not to mention the enormous amount of money they pay to secure

their territory. When they first buy their territories, those are in the

millions of dollars. So they’ve got loans outstanding.

Like I said, one of the guides in my area is paying $25,000 a

month in operating costs just to keep them going. He’s trying to keep

his employees, because with the inevitable reopen…. We just don’t know

when it is, so there’s really no certainty there. These folks are

basically, like I said, on their second season here. The small and

medium business grant, I believe, is ending July 1, just when the

fishing guides are going to be going through their second

season.

I don’t have a lot of time, so I’ll just ask one more question.

These guides really need a lot of help. They need the minister to maybe

see through some of these cracks that have been opened through these

programs. Not condemning the minister on that. I mean, inevitably,

there’s always somebody that’ll fall through the cracks. The

guide-outfitters are that one sector, that one subclass, that has really

found their way to the bottom of the hole here, and they really need to

have a proactive view on how we can save these businesses. I’m just

being straight up. They are on their last straw here.

I guess the last question to the minister is: is the minister

interested at all in extending the B.C. small and medium business grant

to those guide-outfitters? It’s a little bit. Some of these businesses

are well over $2 million in revenue, but they’ve got enormous costs to

go along with them.

These small-business recovery grants only amount to maybe, at the

maximum, $45,000, which is good, but in my last example, that would only

keep a business afloat for a couple of months. It’s appreciated, but

with what’s left in the kitty in the small and medium business recovery

grant, there is certainly enough to identify this subclass of the sector

that is really getting hit hard the most.

So question to the minister: would he be interested in extending

the business recovery grant to those guide-outfitters and fishing guides

that are in desperate need?

[6:05 p.m. - 6:10 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, I just want to stress to the member that the small and

medium-sized business recovery grant program is available to

guide-outfitters. As I highlighted, 31 of the, I believe, 245

guide-outfitters have applied. I would strongly encourage the member to

encourage any of the guide-outfitters that he’s been speaking to, to

apply before July 2.

The member also mentioned other fees and overhead costs that are

being incurred. The member may be aware that we forgave the land and

park act rent for last year. I certainly hear his advocacy, and I will

take his advocacy to my colleague the Minister of Forests, Lands and

Natural Resource Operations.

I thought I’d also share with the member that $2.15 million in

small and medium-sized grant programs have gone directly to businesses

in his community. That’s a substantial number compared to some of the

other communities. Businesses are actively applying in his community,

and I want to thank him for helping spread the word to businesses to

apply in his community. Clearly, something he’s doing over there is

working. So thank you.

R. Merrifield: Well, I’ve been listening to as much as I possibly could of these

riveting estimates. I have heard a ton of agreement on how this pandemic

has not affected all businesses equally. It hasn’t affected all people

equally. That’s something that the minister as well as my colleague from

Kamloops would agree on.

This pandemic has chosen winners and losers — and somewhat

disproportionately. There are many in my riding of Kelowna-Mission that

have been significantly impacted negatively by this pandemic. While I

appreciate that there are some programs that have been created, there

seems to be less attention given to how that actually furthers the

dynamic of the winners and the losers.

Obviously, my riding has an incredible amount of wineries, and the

wine industry is part of the tourism industry that is vital to Kelowna.

Now, while many people increase their alcohol intake during the

pandemic, the wineries could adjust. Their businesses could take and

send directly to customers, but others associated with this industry

could not adjust in the same manner.

Wine tour companies are one of these industries. Even the largest

in my riding, like Cheers Okanagan or Beach Bum Tours, watched as their

buses and cars sat idle while their employees were laid off or left.

Devastated doesn’t begin to describe what’s happened to these

businesses, yet there were no programs that they actually fit

into.

I’ll quote Lou from Cheers Okanagan Tours.

“Greetings, Renee.

“I’m writing to ask if you can help us get the funding needed for

our business to stay in business. We’ve received, from many sources, the

tourism grant link that the hon. John Horgan talked about recently. I

was elated, as we are the largest tour company in the Okanagan, and

eagerly dove into looking at the qualifications. ‘Additionally, tour bus

companies are an important link to bring travellers to regional

destinations, attractions and experiences’ in B.C.

[6:15 p.m.]

“Yes, we were in business in 2019. Yes, we had seven vehicles busy

every possible day for 12 months. I added up the number of passengers we

had, and it totalled 15,300.

“The qualifier is 30,000 passengers to receive up to $500,000. My

heart sunk for us and for all the tour companies. Anyone smaller than

our fleet, which is now nine, will be counting on a busy summer and,

when that is over, will barely make it to 2022, having had to pay all

the debts incurred over these 1½ years of on-off lockdowns and 90

percent less revenue.

“It appears this is for tour bus companies but not all tour bus

companies, especially those that are ambassadors for the wine experience

and attractions in the Okanagan.”

She goes on.

Devastated doesn’t begin to describe what is happening to these

businesses, yet there are no programs that these businesses actually fit

into. How will the minister adjust the programs to meet the needs of all

businesses that were hit hard in this pandemic, including the tour

operators in my riding?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Maybe a point of clarification for me