May 11, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No.

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings today, as all hon. members know,

there was a recent by-election and in this Chamber there used to be a

parliamentary tradition to introduce a new member to the House when he was

elected in a by-election. This tradition is still followed in Ottawa and other

jurisdictions and the Chair thinks that it would be very appropriate to

reinstate that at this point in time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: I have the honor to inform members that the Clerk of the

House has received, from the Chief Electoral Office, a Notice of Return of Mr.

Ross Wiseman, the Member for the District of Trinity North. The new member has

taken his Oath of Allegiance and signed the Members Roll.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have the honor to present to you, Mr. Ross

Wiseman, the member elected for Trinity North. He claims the right to take his

seat.

MR. SPEAKER: Let the member take his seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

As well, members who were elected for the first time in the general election

of 1999 and the recent by-election will find, placed on their desks today, a

copy of the Bible, compliments of The Gideons International. For the occasion, I

would like to welcome to the Speaker's galley, Mr. Guy Olaisola, the National

Director of Stewardship for Canada, accompanied by Laurie Chaulk, the Atlantic

Regional Director, along with members from the Newfoundland delegation: David

Cook, Mr. Max Humby, Norm Henderson, Bruce Winsor, Aubrey Pike, Sid Stacey and

Elmer Harris.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today on behalf of the members on this side of the House, and I

believe I speak on behalf of all of the hon. members of the House, in also

acknowledging the presence in the Speaker's gallery today of the members of

the Gideon organization who have been introduced by the Speaker.

The Gideons International, of course, is an organization that has been in

existence for many years and is an organization that is representative of and

open to, in terms of membership, literally all of the churches. We have

membership therefrom, from the Christian community, and their mandate in the

organization itself has been in place with some very specific objectives in the

history of its ministry. Some of the objectives and some of the areas where they

have provided Scripture placements historically, of course, are well-known to

all of us by virtue of our travels and our everyday moving around. I am sure

anyone who has stayed in a hotel room more than once, or at least one night,

anywhere in the world literally would have found a copy of the Gideon Bible. If

you have been unfortunate enough to be in a hospital, or unfortunate enough - I

don't think any of us have in this House - to be a penitentiary or some other

place of public occupation, you would have probably come in contact with a copy

of the Holy Scriptures as represented by the Bibles that many of us have on our

desks today as a result of being placed there in 1996 by the Gideon

organization.

One of the newer areas where they have decided it would be appropriate to

place Scriptures is in the Legislatures of the country, and in 1996 the Gideons

in Newfoundland provided all the members in the House at that time, under the

leadership of Laurie Chaulk, our zone leader, with new Bibles. They deemed it at

this point to be appropriate to make placements to members who have been elected

to the House since then; hence the occasion of their appearance and visit with

us today.

Certainly we want to thank the organization for their courtesy. We all

recognize the value of the Holy Scriptures in terms of our Judeo-Christian

society, what it lends to our lives, the direction and the blessings and the

benefit that accrue to all of us as we pay reference to the Holy Scriptures as a

point of reference and as a guide for spiritual and even civil direction in the

discharge of our activities.

I am delighted today to have amongst us our local Gideon brethren, Guy O Law

E'Zo Law from Guelph, Ontario, whom I have known for many years. Of course, I

am a little partial and a little parochial, I guess, in making the comments

because I have been a member of this organization for about twenty-two or

twenty-three years, and their contribution is one that is respected and

appreciated by our society generally. I take pleasure in not only associating

myself with them as a member of their organization but I am pleased, as a member

of this Legislature, to be able to recognize them, to welcome them, and to thank

them for the Scripture placements, and to assure them that the ministry in

regard to the placement of the Scriptures in this House is not an unimportant

event. It is something that, if you sit in the galleries from time to time, as

we hope you do because we need crowds - every day we are not filled and we would

like to have you every day for attendance purposes - but beyond that you would

look down and see some of the members browsing through and reading their Bibles.

I think as a result of what has happened in 1996, the placement of these

Scriptures, I would like to think we have all been better boys and girls as a

result of the Scriptures that have been placed in our hands.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side of the House are delighted to join the Minister of Finance

this afternoon, and others in the House, to welcome our friends from the Gideons,

many of whom are personal friends of mine. The Gideons International was formed

in 1899, actually, and it serves as an extended part of the church's mission.

They are an international group of businessmen, primarily, and lay volunteers

who work together to provide Scriptures to more than 170 countries

internationally.

They place and distribute 45 million copies of the Scriptures worldwide every

year. That means that this group of Christian volunteers place 1 million copies

of God's word in the hands of readers every eight days or, as Laurie Chaulk

just told me a few minutes ago, eighty-six copies of Scripture are distributed

every minute worldwide. Gideons are a non-profit organization and are generously

supported by the Christian churches and other clergy.

On behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House, we wish to thank the

Gideons for their sense of outreach ministry to all of those in need, including

the persons the Minister of Finance mentioned, the people who are in hospitals,

people who are studying in our schools, people who are in prison, and to all

others who have need for the consolation and the wisdom that is offered in the

Holy Scriptures.

Their presentation in this House today reminds all of us, as the minister has

said, of our Judeo- Christian heritage and the role we all have individually and

collectively, sometimes in our individual and different ways, to ensure that our

society continues to reflect the values that are offered to all of us in the

Holy Scriptures.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to join with the Minister of Finance and the Member for

Waterford Valley in welcoming the members from the Gideons society to the House

of Assembly. All of us, I am sure, have been to hotels or various other places

where we have seen Bibles. This is the first time I have had the honour of

actually, in the flesh, seeing those who spread the word. As politicians, I

suppose, we can have nothing but respect for the ability of the Gideons to

actually spread the word, and I can say that knowing that it has a theological

and spiritual meaning as well as a social one.

Certainly the Bibles have been here in this House since.... I should say,

though, I have not heard them quoted very often in the Legislature, except

indirectly, but there is a great deal of wisdom both spiritual, political and

societal to be obtained in the Bible. It goes back many millennia to the very

basis of our Judeo-Christian society and has a lot to offer to present day

people as well as it did over the centuries.

I want to thank them for their work and for being so considerate as to make

available to current members, and to me and other members in 1996, copies of the

Bible. Thank you for your work.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to offer congratulations to the entire cast and production team

associated with Etcetera 14, an outstanding achievement of students at Mount

Pearl Senior High and Mount Pearl Intermediate Schools.

Etcetera continues to celebrate the creative excellence of today's youth,

and when combined with the tireless and talented artistry of the Musical

Director, Carl Goulding, the Production Manager, Jackie Goulding, and the Stage

Manager, Robert Power, the musical becomes synonymous with unbelievable energy

of youth and outstanding quality.

Student involvement in Etcetera brings a demanding rehersal and production

schedule but it also brings many opportunities for personal growth and a strong

sense of self-worth. The spirit and collegiality achieved through participation

transfers positively to other aspect of school and community life.

Etcetera 14 is again performing to sell-out audiences at the Mount Pearl

Glacier. Congratulations to the Mount Pearl Chorale, the Mount Pearl Show Choir,

the Mount Pearl Graduate Choir, the Show Choir Band, the Chorale Orchestra and

to the entire cast of Etcetera 14 and its production team.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to inform the House of a very important event that is taking

place in the community of Nain in the beautiful riding of Torngat Mountains.

Starting this past Sunday, over sixty youth from the aboriginal communities

from Happy Valley-Goose Bay to Nain travelled to Nain for a symposium to discuss

their future and employment career. The theme of the symposium is Journey Quest

I had the opportunity Sunday to attend the meet and greet and, on Monday

morning, to speak as a guest speaker. Someone one said that the greatest

resource that any province or country could have is youth. I am proud to be the

member who had the opportunity to speak to the youth in Nain on Monday. I want

to inform this House that the youth in Torngat Mountains are alive and well, and

through all the hardships that they have gone through they are taking their

place to build a better community.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to bring best wishes and congratulations to two

residents of my district. One is a young lady by the name of Anne Jefford - she

is the daughter of Roger and Yvonne Jefford - who on this past Tuesday was voted

the top female softball minor player in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador. It is all congratulations to Anne and to her family who have spent

numerous hours and all kinds of time getting around.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: She might be a Liberal youth. They all vote Conservative, I

say to the Minister of Fisheries.

As well, I would also like to bring greetings to Mr. Paul Smith of Upper

Gullies who works, I believe -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Maybe in the minister's mind, not in mine.

Paul Smith on Tuesday afternoon was voted the male executive of the year for

minor softball in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Paul has done

everything from coaching young men and young women in this very fine sport to

being a groundskeeper, to being a coach and a friend. He has done a tremendous

job and he certainly is very deserving, as Anne is, of these two very

prestigious awards.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

By leave, I would like to do a member's statement.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Always in order.

I stand today to congratulate two teachers from Bishop's College in my

district who recently received the 1999-2000 Prime Minister's award for

teaching excellence. Mrs. Rene Boyce was the recipient of a certificate of

excellence and Mr. Brian Vardy was the recipient of a certificate of

achievement.

Eight different teachers from Bishop's College have now won these

prestigious awards so the students there certainly can be assured they are in

good hands. These awards include cash prizes for the school to be used under the

recipient's direction in consultation with the school board or the board

administration.

Mrs. Boyce has been highly praised by former students for her ability to work

with all students and for increasing enrollment and enthusiasm for physics at

the school. Mr. Ed Arnott received rave reviews from co-op employers and

students alike for his work in the areas of entrepreneurship and cooperative

education. These innovate teachers deserve this recognition, and they also

deserve our sincere gratitude for their proven teaching techniques and their

obvious dedication to our youth.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, before I get into the ministerial statement I want to notify

members opposite that I sold my boat yesterday.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce today the approval of a

Code of Ethics for our Province's fish harvesters, which is the final step in

the official professionalization process for the Newfoundland and Labrador

fishery. A Code of Ethics is the traditional hallmark of a profession, and this

Code outlines the standards of practice for fish harvesters and will serve as

the guiding principles under which they conduct their profession.

There are several key elements contained in the Code of Ethics, including

conservation, quality, respect of the laws controlling the resource, improving

safety and training, disciplinary procedures, promotion and enhancement of the

fishery as a true profession and support for organizations that represent

professional fish harvesters.

The Code of Ethics has been developed and approved through Province-wide

consultations with fish harvesters, meetings of a special committee on a Code of

Ethics, and has the full approval of the Board of Directors of the Professional

Fish Harvesters Certification Board. As the minister that introduced legislation

in the House of Assembly in 1996 to professionalize fish harvesters in

Newfoundland and Labrador - and as a result we became the first province in

Canada to formally recognize fish harvesting as a profession - I am very proud

to approve this Code of Ethics, which will indeed further strengthen the

professionalization program.

Since its inception in 1997, the Professional Fish Harvesters Certification

Board has been working to establish and implement procedures and mechanisms

required to professionalize the harvesting sector of our fishery. The Board is

dedicated to the ongoing process of professionalization, certification and

educational development of all fish harvesters in the Province.

I applaud everyone involved in the development of the Code of Ethics and

commend them for their efforts to ensure that the fishing industry in

Newfoundland and Labrador continues to be conducted in a professional manner.

This Code of Ethics will provide fish harvesters from all fleet sectors with a

common set of goals to govern their work environment. Professionalization is

indeed a key element in the future prosperity of the fishing industry of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of my colleague the Member for

Bonavista South, who is our critic on fisheries matters, I first of all want to

thank the minister for providing us with an advance copy of his statement.

I must say to the minister before I make a few remarks that if the minister

thinks he is going to get out of his contractual obligations to the members of

the Opposition, and to a particular charity which asked us to bid on that boat

trip, by selling his boat, he is going to be faced with a court injunction

ordering him to direct perform the contractual obligations that he undertook.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Or, Tom, he has to arrange the Coast Guard as a substitute.

MR. RIDEOUT: Or arrange the Coast Guard as a substitute. You agree. The

Government House Leader seconds that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) a Liberal (inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: You are going to get a Liberal.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. RIDEOUT: I have them started now. I can't get them calmed down.

Mr. Speaker, we have no difficulty here, in fact we applaud this particular

initiative that the minister outlines in his statement today, introducing a Code

of Ethics for professional fish harvesters in this Province. That is something

we are pleased to have seen evolve and develop over the years. We compliment the

minister for the role that he played in bringing that about.

This Professional Fish Harvesters -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. RIDEOUT: By leave, just for a second or so if the House doesn't

mind?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. RIDEOUT: The only thing I want to say, Mr. Speaker, is that this

Professional Fish Harvesters Board is a concern to a lot of fish harvesters in

the Province. It seems that they have a great deal of power to not only request

- no, demand - from fish harvesters a lot of information that no other

professional board I am aware of - it certainly wouldn't be the Law Society

getting the information, it wouldn't be the medical society getting the

information that fish harvesters have to provide to their professional board.

That is the one concern that I hear consistently as I talk to fish harvesters

around the Province. I would hope that the minister at some point would address

that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given the minister's preface to the remarks on the Code of Ethics for

fishermen, I wonder is there a code of ethics for fisheries' ministers?

This is a very important step and it is a final step in a long line of

actions that have been taken over the last couple of decades in raising the

status of the fishing people in this Province from what it was regarded, in some

cases, as not being a profession, now to the point where we have a collective

bargaining regime for fishermen. We have the Fishermen's Union, which strongly

represents fishermen throughout this Province, and nationally and

internationally. Now we have recognition, through the professionalization

process and the Fish Harvesters Certification Board, and a Code of Ethics, of a

fully professional group of men and women who conduct the fishery in this

Province, one of our most important -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - and historic industries. I think it is a very important

step to acknowledge in the House of Assembly today.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to inform hon. members today that government and the Province's

three ambulance associations - namely, the Newfoundland and Labrador Community

Ambulance Operators Association, the Newfoundland Ambulance Operators

Association, and the Newfoundland Association of Ambulance Services - have

formally signed a $9.1 million, three-year contract to provide road ambulance

services in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: This represents a 50 per cent increase in overall funding for

the ambulance services budget.

The contract signed with ambulance operators will bring stability to

ambulance services for the next three years. More specifically, the people of

this Province will benefit from upgrading to ambulances, and operators will work

toward improved training for ambulance attendants and improved overall safety.

Patient care has always been, and still remains today, our number one

priority. That is why we have provided this additional 50 per cent funding to

the ambulance operators. Together we will work toward improved standards so that

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians can look forward to continued improvements in

our road ambulance system of the future.

At this time, I would like to take the opportunity to thank ambulance

operators, their attendants and volunteers for the critical role they play in

our health system.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am just delighted that this agreement has been reached. I have been saying

for the last four or five years that it is the most underfunded system in the

Province, and it has been ranked in some magazines as the worst ambulance

service in the entire world, in one particular article. I am delighted to see

it. I am just wondering why it took so long. I have been calling for it for

years. Why did it have to take - maybe he can tell me - four years, and three

health ministers later, to get the result I have been calling for since four

years ago?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We too are glad to see that a three-year contract is in place with the

ambulance operators. It was long overdue but it has finally arrived and will

provide stability to the ambulance operators in the Province, who at many times

are the front line people that in many cases determine the life and death of a

patient, as they are the first people on the scene to bring them to a health

care centre. It is important to us as a province that we have an agreement in

place for the next three years. I am sure that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: - the service that is delivered over that three years will

certainly reflect the agreement that is in place.

MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions.

The hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. RIDEOUT: Oh, I am sorry.

MS KELLY: Actually, there are several other ministerial statements.

MR. SPEAKER: Reverting to Statements by Ministers.

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: My apologies, Mr. Speaker.

As hon. members are aware, Premier Tobin and I led a delegation of ten

provincial companies to New England for the Team Canada Atlantic trade mission.

Today, I am pleased to update my hon. colleagues on this trip.

The mission began on Monday, May 8, in Boston, Massachusetts, and included

visits to Providence, Rhode Island, and New Haven, Connecticut. It concludes

today in Braintree, Massachusetts.

With this type of initiative, it often takes months, if not longer, for

companies to finalize deals, but the Team Canada Atlantic trade mission gave our

Province and our local businesses an opportunity to develop strong contacts and

leads for potential deals with New England-based companies.

During the mission I participated in a Venture Capital Forum which involved

five major US venture capitalists. One of those companies focuses primarily on

venture capital for small and medium-sized businesses. This firm expressed an

interest in coming to Newfoundland and Labrador to meet with local businesses,

and I expect this company's officials to visit our Province this summer.

Meetings were also held with CEOs and executives of major US companies. These

discussions produced strong leads for potential investment in Newfoundland and

Labrador, particularly with one company in the area of biotechnology.

Our local companies met with approximately one hundred businesses in New

England during the mission. These meetings are the foundation for building new

partnerships, increasing trade and investment, and forging strategic alliances

between our companies and businesses from that region.

While on the mission, both Premier Tobin and I participated in meetings with

other Newfoundland and Labrador companies which were also visiting the New

England area. One of those companies was Newfoundland Bonding and Composites of

Gander. While in Connecticut, Tuesday afternoon actually, the Premier and I and

company officials met with representatives from Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation of

Stratford, Connecticut. As a result of that meeting, officials from Sikorsky

will be in Gander on Monday, May 15, to tour the Newfoundland Bonding and

Composites facility to assess its capabilities to produce components for

existing Sikorsky.

A deal is expected to be finalized between the two companies by mid-June

which will see Newfoundland Bonding and Composites enter a long-term contract to

fabricate and supply helicopter components to Sikorsky.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador has strong historic ties

and trade links with New England. The Team Canada Atlantic trade mission

provided another excellent opportunity to continue business and export

development with this region, and I look forward to reporting on the results of

this mission in more detail in the upcoming weeks and months.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for providing really what is nothing more than an

itinerary of travel arrangements and a

schedule of meetings that have taken

place recently involving the minister the Premier. Maybe what we could ask for

is an itinerary and the travel arrangements of the Premier in recent weeks, and

maybe one of the Pages in a box can bring to us exactly what the itineraries and

the arrangements have been in the recent past.

What is important, I say, is not so much the travel arrangements, it is not

the itinerary, it is the final agreements, the final contracts, the final

partnerships, the final arrangements. Then we will see if in fact these great

tours are worthwhile and if the people in the Province have indeed benefitted.

That is what we await to see. We do not need an itinerary, I say. We need

results and we wait to see exactly what these arrangements, agreements,

partnerships and contracts are indeed for the benefit of all Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If, as I understand, that businesses who participate in these trade missions

pay their own way, I don't regard the expenditure of public funds for the

minister and the Premier to accompany them an undue use of taxpayers' money. I

think these can be very fruitful, and the prestige of having the minister and

the Premier attend with them is probably very useful. However, to continue to

tell us in the House about the trip she has been on is not much help to us. I

would rather hear of the changes in our ability to manufacture and trade goods

and have a report on the changes that take place there. Perhaps the minister can

provide us with -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Province as not having an increased manufacturing base over the next ten or

fifteen years and is going to be relegated to minor impacts in economic growth.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to inform my hon. colleagues that $495,000

has been allocated for the 2000-2001 Tutoring for Tuition program.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: The program, which has been funded by the department for the

past four years, have the dual benefit: primary to high school students in the

Province whose grade average can benefit from the boost of some academic support

are tutored by high school students, who earn vouchers toward their

post-secondary tuition. This students-helping-students approach is the crux of

the program.

Started as a pilot project in 1997-1998, the program sees the participation

of more than 1,200 students annually - about 600 tutors and over 600 pupils.

Nearly $2 million has been invested in this program since its inception.

The K-12 students in the program benefit by the academic support they

receive. The mentoring relationship that is built also encourages them to pursue

post-secondary education, since that is what their tutors are clearly working

toward. The tutors benefit by earning vouchers toward the cost of their

post-secondary tuition but also gain responsibility and organizational skills,

hands-on experience that may help with career planning, and the satisfaction

that comes from helping others.

Tutoring for Tuition is a win-win program that we are pleased and proud to

support. To participate, high school students who wish to be tutors apply to the

designated program coordinator for their school. Students who could benefit from

the support of a tutor are identified by school staff and selected by the school

program coordinator.

Tutoring for Tuition is administered by the Youth Services Division of the

Department of Education with the input of the Provincial Advisory Committee,

comprising representation from the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers'

Association, the Province's school boards, the Department of Human Resources

and Employment, the Department of Education, and Human Resources Development

Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for an advance copy of her statement, and I join with

the minister in indicating that, yes, the Tutoring for Tuition is a very

positive program for the students; a program that allows them, as you said, to

win-win. Both themselves and their clients are getting good instructions.

The only down side, I say to you, Minister, is that this program is indeed

run by the designated program coordinator in a school. It is a teacher who

volunteers their time. It is an extra-curricular activity, and it is getting

increasingly more difficult to get teachers to volunteer their time. I say to

the minister that I would like to see this go a little bit further. In your

curriculum development, perhaps it would be possible to include tutoring into

the curriculum so that the students will get the credit or credits for it and

the teachers can adequately instruct them in classroom for the tutoring.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HEDDERSON: Overall, it is a positive thing and one -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: That is like going back to 1972, Minister.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, this is indeed a win-win situation. It is win-win for

the school system, for the educational system in general, and particularly for

the students who are providing tutoring and those being tutored. I think it is

very important that students interact with each other in the classroom and that

students benefit from each other.

I also think that one of the other things, when we are talking about

education and we are looking at the funding that is made available for students

with their tuition, it is also important for the minister to realize that the

most important part of the education system is lower costs. If we look at lower

tuition, like was announced yesterday in Manitoba where tuition has been lowered

by 10 per cent, I think that is a good break for students in that Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleased!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: I think it is also important in this Province that we look

forward to lowering the cost of education.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise hon. members that I have

directed my Superintendent of Pensions to make changes to locked-in retirement

funds that will give retirees greater control of their pension incomes.

Over the past year or so we have received a number of complaints from

individuals who retired early, and because of the current rules with respect to

locked-in retirement accounts, could not withdraw sufficient funds to have a

satisfactory standard of living until they qualify for Canada Pension Plan

benefits.

Changes to our rules for Life Income Funds are being made to correct this

problem and to provide greater income options for retirees under the age of

sixty-five. Current rules are creating a problem for many individuals who retire

before being eligible for Canada Pension Plan benefits, when the amount

accumulated in their pension plan is relatively small. The key change will

enable pensioners to have increased yearly withdrawals. In effect, under the new

rules, the retirees who reach age fifty-five, or those who are permitted to

retire earlier under their pension plans, will now be able to receive a minimum

income of approximately $15,000 per year from their locked-in accounts.

Also, if the total amount of the retirees locked-in accounts, regardless of

age, is less than approximately $15,000, then the entire amount can be

withdrawn.

Mr. Speaker, in order to provide more investment options for retired persons,

we are also authorizing an additional locked-in retirement income fund which can

be provided by financial institutions, similar to those allowed in several other

provinces. Basically, a locked-in retirement income fund has a yearly withdrawal

limit equivalent to the pension fund's investment rate of return and does not

require a conversion to a life annuity at age eighty.

Mr. Speaker, these changes will be welcomed by many seniors who take early

retirement, and provide a good balance between the need for retired persons to

have a pension for life and the need to have adequate income until they are

eligible for Canada Pension Plan benefits.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We didn't get an opportunity to know specifics, so it is just what I picked

up there in the statement. The minister made reference to several particular

things there, but I will comment on some of the basic things I heard.

I do support allowing certain flexibilities with people, because at certain

points in their life they do need to access funds, and when they are locked in

they cannot have that flexibility. I have heard of people who have had to

mortgage their houses again to help pay for their children's education and for

other expenses that may come up of a very urgent medical nature, and numerous

instances, so we certainly cannot refute that.

If it is under $15,000, the long-term benefits of a pension are not going to

accrue to be significant anyway. To allow them to draw that out seems to have

very positive overtures in that particular one. (Inaudible). When we talk about

current pensioners, there has been no increase for the public service pensioners

since 1989. They have been with no indexation of pensions occurring and no

movement afoot to do something there. I did hear reference by the Minister of

Finance that they were willing to entertain that, but I have not heard anything

since.

I think we do need to address, too, people who are pensioners under the

system here and are losing out every year with the cost of living increases.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: By leave, Mr. Speaker, just to finish?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think this is certainly good news. I commend the minister on taking this

initiative. I know people personally who, over the past few years, have

postponed their retirement. They wanted to retire but simply could not access

funds from their savings. It is important, and another aspect, that as these

people retire it is creating openings for younger people.

This provision here is certainly of vital importance to workers who, through

their lifetime of working, probably changed employers on a number of occasions,

or changed jobs, and are probably not entitled to much of a pension from any

particular employer. Even though they may have had savings themselves, it is

just as well to allow them now to retire and access the money when they need it

at a time and age when they are able to enjoy it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House today about a

new partnership that my department has entered into with Hospitality

Newfoundland and Labrador and Human Resources Development Canada. It is a

partnership that will not only help young people find employment in the tourism

industry, but will educate them about career planning and customer service.

Tourism Careers for Youth is a national youth internship program that helps

prepare young people between the ages of eighteen to twenty-nine for jobs in the

tourism industry. It is an initiative of the Canadian Tourism Human Resources

Council, co-ordinated by Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador. My department,

along with HRDC, is providing funding for the program.

Tourism Careers for Youth features a mix of classroom and on-the-job training

that provides young people with the skills, knowledge, attitudes and experience

required for long-term stable employment in tourism.

Mr. Speaker, the funding that my department is providing amounts to about

$130,000 and comes through NewfoundJOBS, the program for income support clients

that helps them acquire the skills and training they need to enter or return to

the workforce.

The central region is piloting this new partnership in Bonavista, Clarenville

and Marystown with about thirty-five young people taking part. Tourism Careers

for Youth includes a three-week classroom component and then a six-month job

placement. Young people perform their own job search, but they are also

supported by a program coordinator.

When the young people are hired in entry level tourism occupations, local

businesses receive 50 per cent in job wages or 60 per cent for non-profit

organizations through NewfoundJOBS.

Young people are not only learning about the tourism industry; they are

developing career planning and job search skills that are transferable, whether

or not they choose to remain in tourism or pursue a different career path.

Mr. Speaker, we all know how important the tourism industry is to our local

economy and we all know how important it is to train our young people for

careers that will allow them to remain here in Newfoundland and Labrador. My

department is committed to helping our young people find employment here in this

Province. We are spending $7.5 million this year on youth employment programs

that will serve over 3,500 post-secondary students and youth.

I look forward to keeping you updated on the Tourism Careers for Youth

project and other important youth employment initiatives.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for a copy of her statement.

Mr. Speaker, I have to agree with the minister that it is very good to see

money going in to help train young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians in the

tourist industry. As the minister has said, it is a growing industry in the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and I am sure the Minister of Tourism

would agree with that.

I can only say to the minister that these are the things that we should be

doing. We should encourage our young people to get out, find, and seek proper

training for this very important industry and I would urge the minister that if

it is humanly possible to expand this program outside of Bonavista, Clarenville

and the Marystown area, that we would do this in all haste so that people in our

Province can train.

The only fear I have, Minister, is that about a year or so ago the federal

minister for Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Baker, came into this Province,

encouraged people in the Argentia area to go out and to upgrade their education

for jobs that would be coming on the new ferry, and these things all seem to

have gone by the wayside. I hope, in this proposal and in this agreement that we

have signed with the tourism ministry, that won't happen.

I would encourage you and the rest of the people involved to continue this

very worthwhile project.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly we would support and encourage the training of our young people so

that they can find jobs and work in the hospitality industry. I do have a

concern -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Ireland.

MR. HARRIS: As the member mentions, a lot of people are going to Ireland

because there aren't jobs in this Province for people in that industry, but I

also would caution the minister that when we are designing training programs we

ensure that these training programs are going to be capable of training people

to operate in full-time, year-round jobs and not just fall into a situation

where they are only able to work two or three months of the year, not qualify

for unemployment insurance because of the seasonal benefits, and not end up in

marginalized occupations.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Terra Nova.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, at the expense of being accused of being picayune,

and I have been accused of being much worse, I just wanted to bring up a point

of order.

Among some of the major reforms that we made this year was Statements by

Members, making provision for Statements by Members, which was to legalize the

kinds of things that we had permitted in the House; and to bring some further

order to the House we brought in members statements.

I just wanted to read for members one of the very important guidelines of

that, from

section 25.(2) of the Standing Orders, which says: "A Member,

other than a Minister of the Crown, may be recognized to make a statement for

not more than one minute."

I just wanted to point out to the House that this provision is primarily for

members. I recognize in this particular case, I believe that - and I am not even

sure that the Speaker had called for Statements by Members, but I just wanted to

make that point for the House to point out the importance of this major reform,

and that it is reserved for members. For a minister to speak on this occasion

ought to be indeed a rarity; but with the leave of the House, of course, we can

do anything. I suppose I could be giving a Ministerial Statement, with the leave

of the House.

Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to bring that to the attention of the House so

that it is followed in the way that it ought to be. It is a standing rule of

this House and I think it should be adhered to.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SULLIVAN: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: To the point of order raised, we advocate it is not a point

of order because, of course, unanimous leave was given. We would certainly give

leave if we think it is necessary and it does not jeopardize three of our

members who wish to make statements, and they would not be jeopardized because

of that. We have accommodated that, and it is not a point of order because leave

was given. The minister did not stand without appropriate leave.

As the hon. member said, that can be done with just about anything, I guess,

with unanimous leave of the House.

MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the Chair recognizes that this

period set of time is for private members, and we have been following that

practice, but on occasion ministers have asked for leave and leave has been

granted. If members of the House want to give leave, then we are at liberty, I

guess, to do anything within reason that we want to do. Whenever a minister is

making a statement under Statements by Members, it is by leave only and that is

the practice we have been following.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions this afternoon are for the Minister of Justice and Attorney

General. The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary has been downgraded as an

operational police force, both in personnel and financial resources, since 1990.

Sixty-six police officer positions have been allowed to remain vacant since

1990. Eighteen of these positions have been converted to civilian positions with

a net loss of forty-eight police officer positions. Since the fall of 1999,

sixteen police officers, not including the chief, have left the force. The five

RNC officers presently serving in Kosovo, whose salaries are paid by the United

Nations, were just recently replaced on shift.

My question to the Minister of Justice is this: What plans does the minister

have to stop this serious erosion of RNC personnel, and when will recruitment

begin to return the force the personnel levels that will allow it to provide

appropriate police protection in areas of the Province under its jurisdiction?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, in my short time I have had several meetings

with Chief Power of the RNC, as well as with the RNCA. This matter has been

discussed on virtually all of those occasions. It has been made quite clear to

the RNC officers and rank and file that it is simply a matter of fiscal

possibilities. The downsizing took place as a result of fiscal restraints some

years ago. We have, as of very recently, as the hon. member has mentioned,

refilled five of those positions. It was very recently. Again, we want to ensure

that the RNC - they are a very professional force, they are properly trained,

and we provide RNC in places in this Province as our fiscal abilities allow.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister: Discussion is one thing,

a plan of action to do something about it is something else.

The minister is aware that just recently an RNC officer was recruited

directly into the RCMP. Is the minister aware that nine other RNC officers have

already written the RCMP entrance exam? Is the minister aware that an additional

five or six RNC officers have applied to write the exam? Is the minister aware

that an $18,000 salary difference exists between a first-class constable in the

RNC vis--vis the RCMP? If the minister is aware of those matters, can he

inform the House what he proposes to do to arrest this drain of RNC officers to

the RCMP and to other police forces across Canada?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I guess the Member for Lewisporte certainly

missed my interview with CBC last week, in which all of these issues that he

raised were dealt with, and we are (inaudible) to the public of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: First of all, regarding the RNC, probably one of the most

important undertakings recently was the completion of a strategic plan for them

for the next five years. That has been done with the input of the officers

again, of the rank and file, the RNCA, and with the Department of Justice, so

that we know exactly where we are going, and we chart our course of where we are

going with the RNC in the future.

Regarding the RCMP recruiting effort, yes, the RCMP in this country are

recruiting approximately 800 members as a result of attrition that they are

going to experience within the next year. The RCMP have, in fact, offered two

RNC officers in this Province employment. One of those RNC officers has

accepted. The other RNC officer, who was offered a position with the RCMP, has

not yet accepted. There are issues here that have to be discussed, once they are

even offered acceptance. For example, some of these RNC officers have applied,

but once you get accepted by the RCMP they are then subject, of course, to

mobility and transfer within the RCMP. Some of these officers, I understand, are

having some second thoughts of: Yes, we may like the RCMP in terms of their

monetary gains but there are some downsides to it as well. We may not get to

live in our Province of Newfoundland, where we wish. We may, in fact, end up

being transferred anywhere the RCMP wishes.

We also have the issue of portability of pensions. Many of the RNC are not

interested in transferring to the RCMP because they can't transfer their

pensions. The RCMP would love to attract RNC officers who have in excess of ten

years, are well-trained, and can come into the RCMP without any expense for

training. There are a whole host of factors that go into consideration of -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. PARSONS: - who goes and who doesn't go. We have no control over if

an RNC officer, or anybody else in this Province, chooses to work with whomever

they wish, wherever they wish.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. RIDEOUT: Let me ask the minister something that he does have control

over. In view of the fact that the RNC has the lowest police-to-population ratio

of any police force in Canada, will the minister tell the House how he expects

fewer RNC officers to respond to an increased workload, increased work related

stress problems, and an overall force morale that I am told is lower than at any

time since the 1960s and 1970s? That is something directly under the control of

the minister. What is he doing about that, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I didn't know that the hon. Member for

Lewisporte has become the spokesperson for the RNCA. I have had extensive

meetings with the RNCA and the issue of wages is certainly one of the top

priorities there, but we have to live within the fiscal responsibilities of this

Province.

We have two police forces in this Province, one of which is a national police

force, the RCMP. We cannot possibly compete in terms of what we pay the RNC to

what the RCMP is getting paid. We just don't have the fiscal ability to do it.

We realize that the RNC are probably underpaid, and are indeed underpaid in

comparison to a lot of other police forces in this country. We try, we wish and

we want to pay the RNC better than they are being paid. It is simply a matter

of, we don't have the money to pay what they, at the present time and in the

past, have been demanding. We live within the fiscal responsibilities and

abilities that we do have.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, if we had the money that this hon. crowd wasted

on lost court cases they would be able to be paid. There would be no question

about that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Lewisporte is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to

his question.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have another supplementary for the Minister

of Justice.

The latest concept in providing police protection is that called district

policing. Is the minister aware that while the RNC supports the concept of

district policing, the force has in fact informed his department that it cannot

endorse the implementation of district policing within its jurisdiction because

it doesn't have the resources, the personnel, or the equipment to

appropriately implement district policing within its jurisdiction?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: First of all, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the court cases,

the hon. member is well aware that in the Estimates Committee I gave him a full

accounting of what has happened from this government vis--vis court cases, and

that evidence is there.

With regard to the concept of district policing -

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: Maybe the hon. member would like to have an answer to his

question, if the other Member for Cape St. Francis might allow.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: With regard to the concept of district policing, this is not

new. District policing has been implemented in Canada by the RCMP, for example.

We now, in this Province, have eleven different divisions called district

divisions. We have district policing implemented on the Avalon here. It is only

about one month old, at the most sixty days.

I met about a month ago with all councils on the Northeast Avalon,

representing the city, CBS, and every area on the Northeast Avalon who are

policed by the RNC. The concept was explained that we have four districts. The

purpose of it -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: Maybe the RNCA aren't happy. You don't throw out the

baby with the bath water. We just started the concept and, as I explained at

that time - and if the RNCA wait, probably they will see the results as well -

we have to make the most efficient use of the resources that we have. There are

four districts, four district commanders. The idea now is that, with the help of

the advisory committees in these areas, each of these districts, what the

priorities are in policing will now be made known readily to the district

commander. The district commander can then mobilize whatever resources he needs

from the whole of the Northeast Avalon to react to that problem.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, there may be some complaints from certain members but

we are making better use of the resources that we did have, and with the concept

of district policing you can still deal with the local problems but at the same

time, have the general and -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. PARSONS: - specific resources, like fingerprinting, for example, and

(inaudible) all still available to you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are for the Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Several

days ago, members of the RCMP requested of students and student organizations

that they be interviewed with respect to the upcoming visit of the Prime

Minister. I ask the Minister of Justice: Were you aware of the fact that this

type of contact and interviewing process was to take place with students and

their organizations? And were you, in any way, a participant in this decision

that students be questioned and interviewed in this fashion?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like it made quite clear for the record

that I, in no way, was aware of any attempts by the RCMP to question any

students or anyone else in this Province as a result of the intended visit of

the Prime Minister, at no time whatsoever. Yes, I am aware that it is a standard

procedure by the RCMP, whenever the Prime Minister is visiting anywhere for any

reason, that they make preliminary checks to determine if there may be some

problems.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the minister was not aware, and I accept the fact that he was not aware,

as the Minister of Justice and Attorney General for this Province, are you

concerned about the fact that the approach taken by the RCMP may, in fact, have

intimidated many of the students and their organizations who were questioned, to

the point that their fundamental rights and freedoms, as guaranteed and

protected under the Charter of Rights in this Province, in their minds, were at

risk? Are you concerned, as the chief lawmaker in this Province, Mr. Minister,

that students and their organizations felt this way in response to the approach

taken by the RCMP?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I certainly think the RCMP acted properly in

what they did. It is their procedure to check out things in advance whenever the

Prime Minister is going anywhere. I don't think we should fearmonger. I can't

control how the students or anyone else might have felt about this approach by

the RCMP, but if the RCMP is doing whatever is reasonable as an advance check to

secure the security of the Prime Minister of this country, I have not problem

with it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's

East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the minister: Why is it that students in our country - and recently,

apparently, even in our own Province - from media reports and from the students'

responses themselves, that they feel their ability to voice an opportunity, or

to freely assemble in a peaceful way, or to express a point of view - why is it

these students feel jeopardized to do what they want to do freely and

voluntarily in their own jurisdiction?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, these students did exactly

that; they exercised their right to say nothing and not cooperate. They were

asked and, as I understand it from the media interviews that I heard of the

student representatives, they declined the RCMP invitation to have such a

meeting. That is totally within their rights to do so, and I applaud them for

exercising their rights if that is what they wanted to do; but let's not make

an APEC situation here in Newfoundland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my questions today are for the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, or the Premier, or the minister of everything, or the acting

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation for today.

There are many concerns regarding road conditions in this Province, not just

this year but in the past years. The fact is, the minister himself has confirmed

that there are over 900 kilograms of gravel roads in this Province. Concerns for

provincial roads are beginning to pop up all over the Province. One example is

the La Scie highway where demonstrations are taking place by residents of the

communities in the area. If something is not done, there will be many

demonstrations like that of the La Scie and area residents.

This year's budget is spending $12 million to $14 million on provincial

road systems. Members on both sides of the House are receiving telephone calls

regarding road conditions.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FRENCH: Mr. Speaker, something has to be done. My question for the

minister is: Are there any plans to put more money, this year, into the

provincial road system?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I wish the Leader of the Opposition was here to

ask some questions. Then we would probably get some sensible questions from the

Opposition over there.

Did I hear the hon. member say 900 kilo-

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Well, he referred to the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get on with his answer.

MR. EFFORD: I couldn't hear the question, all the points he was making.

Did I hear you say 900 kilograms of roads? Nine hundred kilograms. I am sure

that is what he said.

MR. TULK: He said kilograms.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture to get to his

answer.

Mr. Speaker, I always have them at hand.

We have more roads in this Province, per capita, than any other part of this

country of ours. Every time I drive over the highways in Newfoundland and

Labrador, and I drive somewhere on the mainland, particularly Atlantic Canada, I

have said 1,000 times that we have better roads in this Province than anywhere

in Atlantic Canada. On a per capita basis, we put a reasonable amount of money

into road construction in this Province. I believe it is $20 million. It will be

approximately, provincially, about $20 million this year plus the Roads for Rail

agreement. I will stand up with any other works, services and transportation

minister in Canada with the quality of roads and the condition of roads we have

here in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, in the minister's own words, he has received some 380 requests

this year for road monies. There is a crisis brewing because of a minimal amount

being put into roads. Newfoundland is sold on its scenery and tourists are not

going to coastal communities if there is not work done on some of these roads.

I would now like to ask the minister: Would he and his government consider

putting more money from the contingency fund into the provincial roads?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, we have a population of approximately 560,000

people. This year, $136 million will be spent in the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador on roads. That is a lot of kilograms for roads in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't know where this particular minister gets his figures, because they

certainly are not the ones of the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation. They are certainly not his figures, when he says there is $16

million of provincial money this year going into roads.

I would now like to ask the minister this. The federal MP, Mr. Gerry Byrne,

has said on the radio and to people in his own riding that there are monies

available. My question for the minister is: Are these monies ready and available

to go? If these monies are ready, when are we going to start using them?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: M.r .Speaker, I have heard these comments several times in

the past number of weeks about what our friend, MP, Mr. Byrne, will put up for

roads in Newfoundland and Labrador. Let me, for the record, say what this

government will do. For every single dollar that the federal government, through

Mr. Byrne, will put for roads in Newfoundland and Labrador, we will put up our

20 per cent.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Human Resources and Employment. The

minister, I am sure will agree, as will all hon. members, about the importance

of literacy in this Province, and the particular efforts being made by adults to

obtain literacy through the ABE program.

Why, then, is the minister's department reducing the support for people on

social assistance, and income support, in their efforts to obtain basic

education and literacy training through the ABE program by reducing this support

by more than two-thirds, to less than one-third of what it is today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure what specifically the Member

for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi is referring to.

As members of the House are aware, it was during the last fiscal year and

approximately seven or eight months ago that responsibility for the ABE program

and the provision of basic education for adults was transferred from my

department to the Department of Education.

It was with the concept and the understanding that the overall responsibility

for literacy rests with the Department of Education.

Regardless of whether somebody is simply looking to government for income

support to assist them when they have no other means of supporting their own

financial needs, the concept of how we administer and provide for adult basic

education rightfully belongs with the Department of Education.

It has been there for a number of months up to this time. I understand that

there has been a considerable expansion in the ability of government to provide

for adult basic education as a result of that transfer of funds from my

department to education.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Individuals on income support would receive $175 per month as a supplement

while attending adult basic education courses. This has been now reduced to $50

per month. I believe it is the Minister of Human Resources and Employment's

department that provides this supplement.

Why are some of the people at the lowest income levels in the Province, in

particular single persons who are on social assistance, who sometimes make

little more than $100 per month, being treated in this way and not being given

any incentive to pursue basic literacy, which they should be able to do?

Removing this incentive is driving people away from programs that they need to

have in order to be able to improve their lives and possibly access the job

market.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is a different issue and a different

question from what was previously asked.

I think what the member is referring to is the placement support allowance

which my department provides to income support clients when they are taking

advantage of any kind of training opportunities. The whole change to this

program is part of our income support reform. It is a question of equity and

fairness.

The way that the system had been structured in the past was for anyone on

income support, regardless of their needs, regardless of whether they had

transportation needs, regardless of whether they had childcare needs, regardless

of what their circumstances were, to receive a flat rate of $175. What we have

done now is to change that system entirely so that we take into consideration

peoples transportation needs and we provide support for that. If they have

children and they have daycare needs, we have increased the rate there and we

provide for that. If people have special circumstances that require an up-front

spending, we provide a special one-time $200 to meet those particular needs. In

addition to that, we provide $50 a month, which the member referred to. So, we

have dramatically changed the system (inaudible)-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer.

MS BETTNEY: In conclusion, what I would say is that for some people who

have all of these kinds of needs they will, in fact, receive considerably more

than $175 a month to support them in their training efforts.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are to the Minister of Health and Community Services. A clause

in October 1998's Memorandum of Understanding with the Newfoundland and Labrador

Medical Association put the onus on government to bring to the Cabinet table the

issue of doctors being allowed to incorporate. Over one-and-a-half years have

elapsed since that time. I want to ask the minister: Will he tell this House if

this matter has been addressed in Cabinet and if so, when can we expect to hear

the result?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The matter is contained in the memorandum and is still under discussion with

physicians. The government has no objection and that is why it is in the

Memorandum of Understanding, to allow physicians to incorporate. We are trying

to work with the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association just to make sure

that when we allow for that it is done properly.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Memorandum of Understanding indicated that it must be brought to Cabinet.

The minister did not answer. I am assuming it has not been brought to Cabinet

and they have not moved on it in a-year-and-a-half in that regard.

Incorporation, I would say to the minister, is beneficial, particularly in

the recruitment and retention of doctors in certain sub-specialties where

overhead costs and equipment is very expensive, where it is hard to get doctors

in our Province. Every other province in Atlantic Canada, and every other

province in the country, except one, allows them to incorporate, and that

province is moving now to do so. I want to ask the minister: Will he move now

immediately? Will he level the playing field? Will he allow this to happen in

our Province and will he stop the drain of medical professional specialists from

our Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We have, in fact, not had a drain of medical specialists from the Province.

The information actually is that since the signing of the Memorandum of

Understanding just over a year or so ago, we actually in the Province today have

somewhere between fifty and sixty more specialists than we had at the signing of

the MOU. So the language with respect to a drain of specialists is not exactly

accurate.

As I said, in answer to the first question, the fact that it was placed in

the Memorandum of Understanding indicated that the government does not disagree

in principle with the idea that physicians should be able to incorporate. Right

now we are working prudently with the NLMA to make sure that when we bring that

provision into Newfoundland and Labrador it is done appropriately and to the

greatest benefit of the physicians.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is for the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

Minister, for years the federal and provincial governments have been cooperating

by entering into forestry agreements to give a boost to the industry. Is the

minister involved at this time in discussions with the federal counterparts on

the future of forest agreements? I would also like to add on to that: What

specific help does the Province want from Ottawa to ensure this key industry is

here in the Province, is sustained, and continues to create many thousands of

high quality jobs long into the future?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the member for the question. Yes, we are working with

the federal government now. The federal minister responsible for forestry in

Canada has indicated this year that they are looking at getting back into

forestry development. We have been after them for the last two or three years to

do so. So there are discussions being initiated across the country with the

different forestry ministers to try to get the federal government to look at

more funding for silviculture.

We have had an agreement with the HRD offices here in Newfoundland and

Labrador, negotiated by the previous minister of forestry who did a very good

job and with HRD and the Premier, and there was $11 million to $12 million in

that agreement. It has been very progressive. Silviculture work is excellent

work in Newfoundland and Labrador and we are looking forward to getting more

done this year, but we would like to have the federal government back with an

agreement where they would help fund rural projects in rural Newfoundland and

Labrador to help our forests, which we are managing as good as anywhere on the

planet.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me remind the minister that during the election of 1999 he, the Premier

and some of his colleagues and an opponent of mine went around the Province, in

Central Newfoundland and rural areas of Newfoundland, and committed to a large

silviculture program for last year and this year. I would like to ask the

minister: What happened to all the thousands of jobs that were promised last

year, and when will these jobs start this year?

We see today in rural Newfoundland, with the collapse of the fishery and that

downturn in the crab fishery, where a lot of jobs are certainly needed in

Central Newfoundland and rural Newfoundland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. HUNTER: So, minister, when are these jobs going to happen? At what

time are you going to announce the projects for these jobs?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, in the last three or four years we spent

more money in silviculture projects than in the history of the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: This year there is going to be, again, the equivalent

dollars as we spent last year, pretty well. We are working on more funding with

the federal government through HRD and other organizations.

Mr. Speaker, the amount of silviculture work that we have been doing has been

continuing to be the amount that we need to do. We are working with the forest

industry. Both Abitibi and Kruger Inc. are both participating with funding of

silviculture projects along with the Province and along with the federal

government.

The commitment we have made and we continue to make and continue to carry out

is to creating employment in rural Newfoundland and Labrador in the forest

industry. We will continue to do that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

MR. EFFORD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In my fifteen years in this House of Assembly we have enjoyed debate back and

forth, in particular during Question Period. There is a lot of things said back

and forth in the House and through debate. The one thing that we have all had,

in my fifteen years that I have been here - and I expect long before I came -

was respect for procedures in the House and respect for members on both sides of

the House of Assembly when it comes to parliamentary procedures.

One of the things that has been precedent setting in this House is that we

have never and should not refer to members absent from the House. When the

Member for Conception Bay South stood up today he referenced the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation, who is most commonly in his seat. Today he

is out of the House to attend a funeral of a distinguished Newfoundlander who is

being buried this afternoon - and he is accompanied by the Premier - a

distinguished business man, Arthur Lundrigan.

I should ask the member opposite to stand and apologize, one, for breaking

the procedure, and two, for respect for the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation and his attendance at a funeral.

MR. SULLIVAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is not uncommon if a minister is unavoidably absent to ask the acting

minister. That is certainly an acceptable thing, and it has not happened. I know

it doesn't make it right that the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture made

the same reference. It still doesn't make it right. We don't agree with it

basically overall. It is accepted.

So if there was anything from this side that was not considered

parliamentary, certainly we will apologize for that. The member certainly will,

if he so desires. I speak on behalf, as House Leader, that it gets carried a

little bit too far on certain times. There was no intent. The minister was

unavoidably absent. It is our right to ask the acting minister, the Premier, or

anybody, and it is the right of government to stand who they wish to stand to

answer that particular question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I understand the Opposition House Leader

referencing that it is the right of a member to ask the acting minister. I never

referenced the question to the acting minister. I was glad and quite willing to

answer the question. That is not the point. The point is referencing a member of

this House to be absent from the House when he is most commonly in his seat. The

reason why he is out of the House of Assembly is because he is today attending a

funeral on behalf of a very distinguished Newfoundlander.

MR. FRENCH: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, the hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

When I spoke, and I am sure Hansard will bear me out, I did not say that the

minister was not in his seat. If I indicated that or said it, then I certainly

would retract it.

I did not say that he was not in his seat. I gave a question to four

ministers. I said: the minister, the Premier, the minister of everything or the

acting minister. We ended up getting the acting minister. I did not get any

answers, but I did get the acting minister. If I did reference the minister not

being in his seat, then I would certainly retract that.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order.

The hon. member has retracted any statements that he may have made, but all

hon. members know of course that referencing members from this House ought not

to take place. I ask hon. members to keep that in mind as we debate the issues

here.

MR. SULLIVAN: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: I would ask Mr. Speaker to ask the Minister of Fisheries

and Aquaculture to also retract. When he (inaudible) if the Leader of the

Opposition was here too he said he might have some better questions. I would

just ask him to do the same thing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Most definitely, Mr. Speaker, I retract it.

MR. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. member.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table in the House today the

copy of the annual report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Public Service

Commission for the period 1996-1999.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I table the Annual Report 1999 of the Workers' Compensation Review

Division.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Mines

and Energy, and in accordance with

section 41 of the Hydro Corporation Act, I am

pleased to table the 1999 Annual Report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro

Corporation.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave

to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic

Act," Bill 26.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today I rise to present a petition on behalf of 517 people from the

communities and the towns of Pouch Cove, Flat Rock and Bauline. The petition

reads:

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador in legislative

session convened, the petition of the undersigned residents of Bauline, Flat

Rock and Pouch Cove;

WHEREAS the residents of Bauline, Flat Rock and Pouch Cove have had funding

approved for a new school; and

WHEREAS the school board has promised students would be in a new school in

September 2001; and

WHEREAS the design of the new school is not acceptable for a number of

reasons such as classroom size, multi-use of rooms for lunch and music, no

allotment for growth and other concerns;

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

to support the school board, the parents and the children of these three towns

in having the new school built to address these concerns and to allocate

sufficient funding to permit same.

Mr. Speaker, 517 names were on that within a couple of days from the area,

most of the parents down there, I would say. The funding for this school was

approved two years. The people in those communities were working on a new school

for some twelve years. There was $5.5 million approved for a new school in that

area. It was to be a K to IX, it is now going to be a K to VI. That has been

accepted. It was forced down their throats but they have accepted that.

What is projected for the new school is $3.2 million. That is some $2.3

million less than what was approved for the school, and the funding was in

place. The problem with the new school was addressed: the school board, by the

way, rejected the design, the layout and the size of the classrooms some two

weeks ago. They had a public meeting down there last week and there were 200 or

300 parents there in Pouch Cove Elementary, when a presentation and the concert

plan was put forward. The size of the allocated classroom space is too small.

That is one point we have. With the northeast Avalon growing - the population

for the school is 270 students in those two schools, St. Agnes and Pouch Cove,

now. The new school is being designed for 270. They are not allowing any room

for growth.

The northeast Avalon is probably the only area in the Province that is

growing in population and they should be making allotments for the increased

student enrollment in the years to come. People down there want a separate music

room. That is required. What is being proposed is a cafeteria that is going to

require three lunch meals because of the population, because of the small size

of the cafeteria. Not only that, the cafeteria is going to be alternating

between a cafeteria and a music room, with three lunch periods. Can you believe

this? This is what is coming forward from the Department of Education. They are

being dictated to. I have to ask the question: Why do we elect a school board

when we have the Department of Education forcing stuff down the throats of the

school board.

I have a meeting set up for tomorrow to discuss this with the deputy minister

and the ADM, I believe, and Mr. Lester and Mr. Shortall from the school board to

try and get this -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have leave just to clue up.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Now, some other things. As I said, $5.5 million allocated and they are only

going to spend $3.2 million. What is needed down there to make everybody happy

is $250,000. They are not allowing enough money for desks, equipment and

furnishings. They are not even talking about fencing. The site they have is on a

pasture land and they are not even going to allow enough money for fencing of

the school property. That is what they are talking about. The cafeteria size is

way too small, with three seatings.

There was a question of kindergarten enrolment. This year there are some

forty-two children registered in kindergarten. That is going to require

classrooms. The staff room is not nearly large enough. As a matter of fact, they

are not even going to have enough room in the school for a maintenance person.

They are nickel-and-diming this facility to death.

The people in this area deserve more. They have been working on it for twelve

years. The government has promised it to them. The former Minister of Education,

the present Minister of Health, allotted $5.5 million for this school. As I

said, $250,000 more is all they need to have everybody happy. If they allow that

$250,000, they are still going to save $2,150,000 from the original allotment

for the school.

Hopefully the department will come to its senses tomorrow when we meet, and I

meet with the school board and representatives from the Department of Education.

Hopefully they will listen to the petition that was presented here today. I am

sure there are lots of other people out there who have signed petitions that

didn't get to me in time to present here today.

We want to say, from Pouch Cove, Flatrock and Bauline, and the whole area of

the Northeast Avalon down there from Torbay on, there are supposed to be three

K-VI feeding into a VII-XII high school in Torbay. This has to be done. It has

to be done as soon as possible.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the minister, I thank him for the leave.

In the meantime, in conclusion, I will say this. I hope the Department of

Education and the school board, with me there, will try and negotiate some

reasonable solution to this problem.

Tomorrow evening, after the meeting, hopefully I will have good news for the

people. If not, I hope that other areas - as we have seen in the Province, the

squeaky wheel gets the grease. If that is what it takes, so be it.

MR. SPEAKER (Smith): The hon. the Member for Burin-Peninsula West.

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I present a petition in this House today

signed on behalf of some 500 residents in the District of Burin-Peninsula West.

The petition is addressed as follows:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador

assembled, we petition, the undersigned residents, humbly sweareth, that:

WHEREAS, the road to Petit Forte forms a very important and essential link to

no less than five communities, namely South East Bight, Great Paradise, Little

Paradise, Port Anne, and Petit Forte; and

WHEREAS much concern is expressed for the transportation of goods and people,

especially the safety and comfort of school children who travel some fifty

kilometers daily to attend school in Rushoon; and

WHEREAS the hazards and hardships presented by a gravel road are numerous;

We, the undersigned, wish to ask the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

to pave the Petit Forte road as soon as possible.

Mr. Speaker, quite recently, I traveled to Petit Forte to meet with the

residents of that community, as well as several constituents from South East

Bight and other communities in that area concerning this petition.

Any person who has visited the community will agree with me that this is one

of the most scenic and friendly little communities in our entire Province, one

of our greatest tourist attractions. More than 100 people attended the meeting.

The meeting was exceptionally well-organized and very cordial. The chairperson

was Mr. Heffernan, and he had gone to great lengths to gather information and

support for the paving of the Petit Forte road. In addition to this petition, a

petition signed by some 500 people, residents and travelers to the area, I was

presented with some fifty letters of support from councils, businesses in the

Burin Peninsula, and also professionals who must travel the road frequently to

provide goods and services.

As stated in the words of the petition, the Petit Forte road is an essential

link to five mentioned communities. Three of these communities have livyers year

round and the remaining two are home to fishermen and their families during the

entire fishing season from April to November of each year.

For these communities, the Petit Forte road is the only link to the outside

world. The hazards and the hardships presented by a gravel road are almost too

numerous to mention. Vehicle owners continuously face high repair bills and

residents plagued by high levels of dust are two of the consequences of having

to contend with a dirt road.

Each year, millions of dollars worth of fish is landed at the wharf in Petit

Forte to be readied for transport over road to processing facilities. Rough road

conditions do little to enhance the quality of the product when it finally

reaches the plant. However, of all the points raised in support of this road,

the greatest concern expressed and recognized was for the children who must

travel the road daily to attend school in Rushoon. Parents and teachers

supported the theory that paving of the road would reduce travel time and

provide a level of comfort conducive to better learning.

I sympathize with the fine people of these communities and, as I expressed at

my meeting, nothing would please me more than to be able to announce funding for

this road. I advised my constituents that from the public consultations we have

had in this Province since I was first elected in 1996, the message has been to

try and do with the infrastructure that we have in place at this particular time

for as long as we can, and that the dollars go into health care and education,

and that is exactly what we have been doing.

This year, the total budget for roads was somewhere in the area of $15

million. The share provided to any one district does little to address the total

problem, and at the rate that we are going right now it will take us a long time

to be in a catch-up position.

I have been honest with my constituents and advised them that unless there

was a much greater infusion of funds than we have been receiving, I cannot

foresee an immediate solution. However, I did announce $25,000 at that time

towards Class A material for the road in Petit Forte and I have consulted our

engineers and a superintendent with the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation to have the road closely monitored for rating and for

maintenance.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, while funding is not available to pave the

road at this particular time, I ask my government that, should additional

funding become available, the Petit Forte road be given every consideration.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I thought I saw him jump up. I thought there was another

petition

Mr. Speaker, Order 18, second reading of Bill 21, "An Act To Consolidate

And Revise The Law With Respect To Urban And Rural Planning In The

Province." The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Consolidate And Revise The

Law With Respect To Urban And Rural Planning In The Province." (Bill 21)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a pleasure today to stand in this House to introduce second reading of

Bill 21,

An Act To Consolidate And Revise The Law With Respect To Urban and

Rural Planning In The Province. Just a couple of days ago a package was

distributed to all members of the House, outlining the major changes in the bill

as well as a synopsis of the changes and associated press release information

and

summary statement.

This bill, if enacted, will replace the current Urban and Rural Planning Act

which was in effect since 1969, and will be the enabling legislation governing

the Province's land use planning system. This legislation has been developed

following a very comprehensive review. Consultations were held across the

Province, including involvement of the NLFM and the NLAMA.

The involvement and commitment of these stakeholders have been very important

and, in fact, invaluable to ensure that this legislation has evolved from a

process to one that has given us the legislative tools so that municipalities

can strive to meet the current and the future challenges in local government.

The endorsement of the bill by these stakeholders was quite evident in our joint

press conference which we held a couple of days ago, outlining the major changes

within the act.

When this current act was proclaimed, it sufficiently delineated the powers

and responsibilities necessary at that time for municipalities. Clearly, Mr.

Speaker, changing times and realities of municipal governments now have

necessitated these extensive amendments over the years. This, together with a

significant new issue such as the need for a greater autonomy in municipal

government, as well as the desire for public involvement in development of local

planning policy, as well as the need to provide a level of protection for

property rights of those of private owners and the changing role of my

department, clearly illustrates the need for this comprehensive legislative

review.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to, just very briefly, identify the major

objectives - identify ten, at least - that this new legislation should address.

Clearly, it will strengthen empowerment of municipalities to make land use and

development policy obviously more simplified for them; it will minimize

provincial involvement in municipal planning; it will increase the flexibility

of the municipal planning system so that it is better suited to both large and

small municipalities; it will expand opportunities for public input and

consultation at all levels. Again, this is a very important piece, consultation.

It will establish provincial benchmarks for equitable and fair planning of

administration. Also, it puts a provision in place to recover costs for this

planning administration and development, these costs which would be set at the

municipal level. As well, it will facilitate inter-municipal cooperation and

regional planning and clarify provincial land use policies, as well as

streamline time frames and provide a user friendly act.

These provisions, in our view, address each of the objectives. The positive

reaction that we have received so far from the Federation of Municipalities as

well as from the Association of Municipal Administrators, clearly demonstrates

that this has been a consultative process, one that has occurred over time, and

one that has been significantly reviewed with a number of stakeholders.

The Federation of Municipalities have endorsed this bill and they state that

the legislation is what municipalities have asked for, what they want, and what

they clearly need to carry out their administration. As well, it has been

subjected to considerable consultation and the municipalities are very

comfortable with its provisions.

The municipal administrators are also supportive of the legislation. In fact

the Past-President, Mr. Mike Pinsent, also joined me in the press conference on

Monday morning. This new legislation will improve their ability to manage the

change process. It also gives them greater autonomy. I was very impressed, in

fact, with the way this new act was structured and the way it flows. It is much

easier to make reference, and this was a major complaint associated with the old

act. It was very cumbersome.

Some of the more significant provisions of the bill include, within the scope

of empowerment, municipalities will be assigned more direct responsibilities to

mange the hearing and notice procedures; to prepare and approve plans and

development regulations as well as amendments. This, of course, I believe, will

certainly eliminate a lot of the red tape associated with the preparation and

approval of plans.

The provincial role will change to one of reviewing for consistency, with the

provincial policy, the laws and the subsequent registration. The municipality

does not have the expertise or resources in many cases, and they may request

that the Province assist them with the approval process.

As well, a municipal plan will have to cover very basic topics and these will

now be able to be expanded to include other optional contents which would

actually meet the particular needs tailor-made to that particular municipality.

Within the scope of expanding opportunity for public input, I think the bill

has very much addressed this in a very clear way by allowing the municipality or

authority involved to design, carry out, and document a public consultation as

part of the planning process. Once the regulations and their amendments have

been considered, they will also require further public notice and they will

conduct an opportunity for interested persons to provide their comments but no

hearing would be required unless, of course, the municipality would determine

so.

Within the scope of establishing the provincial wide benchmarks for equitable

administration, the bill provides that the municipal development regulations

contain procedures and administrative requirements to ensure fairness and

necessary record keeping. Again, this is something that is very important.

Regional appeal boards will hear all appeals except for the three

grandfathered cities, including Mount Pearl, St. John's and Corner Brook. The

appeal procedures are specified in the act and there is also a new clear

section

on non-conforming uses. There is a part which will be grandfathered in and it

will now specify how these development regulations can deal with non-conforming

uses and structures and actually set limits for their protection.

Municipalities can otherwise develop their own policies and provisions in

developing regulations. Variances will be limited to up to 10 per cent of

specified standards. Again, this is a fairly standardized approach that will be

overseen by the provincial guidelines. Also, purchase notice provisions will

ensure that freezes on developable land can be compensated but that the process

will not be manipulated to force a purchase of large parcels of rural land where

development is premature or otherwise indicated.

The bill provides that, in terms of cost-recovery, the municipality may

recover all or part of the cost for plan amendments and development regulations,

particularly if it is for private interests. Application and permit fees can be

set and financial guarantees may be required and include newer instruments such

as irrevocable letters of credit.

The inter-municipal cooperation I think is obvious, because it certainly

outlines the opportunity for regional planning by authorities and will also give

them the procedures they need for public consultation and the requirements

associated with it.

In terms of clarifying provincial land use policies, the policy statements,

both municipal and regional, as well as provincially initiated planning, will be

required to conform to policy set out in the bill. According to the scope, and

within the scope of streamlining time frames, the bill provides an appeal period

of fourteen days after the municipality makes its decision. Appeal of this

appeal board decision can be made within ten days to the Trial Division of

Supreme Court, and the delegation by a council or regional authority to a staff

member has the ability to approve or refuse the classes of applications. Again,

this is a streamline approach.

In conclusion, the scope of providing a more user friendly act - as I

mentioned, there has been a fair bit of consolidation in this act as it relates

to expropriation provisions, appeal provisions, and also it identifies a logical

progression through the planning system from the policy development all the way

through to regulatory implementation and appeals and enforcement.

I have only outlined some of the more significant provisions of the bill.

There are numerous others that, together with those outlined, make for a new

Urban and Rural Planning Act for this Province that is strongly supported, as I

pointed out previously, by the principal stakeholders, both the Newfoundland and

Labrador Federation of Municipalities and the Newfoundland and Labrador

Association of Municipal Administrators. Mr. Speaker, government is very proud

to bring to this new bill forward.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side of the House want to acknowledge that we have been waiting a

long time for this particular piece of legislation to come before the House. As

the minister noted in her opening comments, the present legislation dates back

to 1969. Those of us who have been continuously elected since 1969 have many

years to reflect on these many ways in which the urban and rural planning act

has been an instrument of success but also has been, in many cases, an

instrument that has caused great frustrations.

I note that the minister said that she has had great numbers of

consultations. I just want to note that the last time the minister stood in this

House and said that she had had great numbers of consultations was when she was

introducing the act called the Child, Youth and Family Services Act. Last year

the same minister stood in her place and said: I've had extensive

consultations with all the stakeholders and there is unanimous consent among all

of these that we will now bring this bill forward.

At that time I stood in my place and said that it might be advisable if the

minister were to go and send this piece of legislation to the social services

review committee as was the practice committed by Premier Clyde Wells when he

became the premier in 1989. As a consequence of not referring the legislation to

a committee of the House, the social services review committee, we noted that

just a few days ago there were some twelve or thirteen amendments that were

necessary to the Child, Youth And Family Services Act after this same minister,

in her prior role, had assured us that all the consultations had taken place and

that there was no need for this act to be referred.

I believe the minister when she stands in her place and says that she has had

dialogue with the Federation of Municipalities. I believe her as well when she

says there has been dialogue with the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of

Municipal Administrators. However, we know that this piece of legislation will

have to be enforced by many town managers, many clerks, who have limited

exposure to this particular act. We know there was need for tremendous revisions

to the whole planning structure in this Province.

However, we know as well that the department has been downloading its

responsibilities onto municipalities. As a matter of fact, the entire Department

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is now nothing more than a regulatory

agency. The way it is going, there is so little left in that department by way

of decision making that requires an input of a minister that it means that this

department now has been reduced in stature, been reduced in importance by this

government to the point where now everything is done by way of regulation. We

have minimized the role of the minister and minimized of the role of the

department in this Province. As a matter of fact, for many years it has not been

a major department of government, but in recent times it has become a very minor

department of government because now it really is setting policies. There is so

little help given to municipalities by way of giving them the means to be able

to carry out the responsibilities that they have.

I say to the minister that we believe in more autonomy, we believe in setting

good policy by the minister and her officials, we believe in the streamlining

that this act provides, but we also believe that in adopting this act we have to

make sure that the municipalities out there have the means and the expertise to

be able to live and abide by its provisions. It is no good to say to a small

municipality: Yes, you can do this or you can do that, if you are not going to

give them the wherewithal to be able to have the proper training, access to the

planning expertise, access to the legal expertise, and access in particular to

the financial resources that lets them go and be able to do a good job in

administering their municipalities.

The minister made note of certain positive changes. I have noted some of them

already. I say to the minister that the old methodology of having the

municipality prepare its municipal changes to its planning processes and then

having them to advertise these changes and have a public hearing, and then when

all that was done had to turn around and do it all over again - because the

department also required you to have a thirty day advertisement time and also to

have another public hearing - that kind of process was frustrating.

As a matter of fact, in my many years as mayor of a town, and then later on

as a mayor of a city, we found it quite frustrating. The difficulty I have is

that in making those changes they may be very well for the Mount Pearls of the

world, they may be very well for Conception Bay South, they may be very well for

Gander, but as we go from the larger municipalities to the smaller

municipalities I have great concerns about the small municipalities and how they

are going to cope with those changes. I would say here that the Newfoundland and

Labrador Federation of Municipalities is dominated and in many ways, I say from

experience, is controlled by the larger municipalities. When we say that this

particular piece of legislation is good for all municipalities, I have great

concerns about the very small municipalities.

I know that the larger towns - the ones that in the larger towns' group in

the Federation - and cities can cope with the provisions of this particular

piece of legislation. I know as well that the municipal administrators have had

input here, but what I have concerns about are the smaller towns across this

Province who suddenly will find themselves having to administer this piece of

legislation. The minister has already said that there is going to be some

training provided, but as we know, it is going to be very difficult for a

municipality which has half-time clerk or has a clerk that works one half-day a

week or something like that, to be able to intimate knowledge of all the

provisions in this piece of legislation and try to administer that in terms of

the best benefits to the municipality and to the council that the clerk is

serving.

We on this side of the House want to say to the minister it is a positive

piece of legislation, but in doing so - I am not going to delay it for very long

- I want to say to the minister that there are certain provisions that we want

to note.

If I could just draw attention for a few moments to a couple of sections. One

of the provisions I wanted to note was right at the end of the act. Clause 113,

section 222(1), under the expropriation procedures, says: "A council may,

in accordance with

Part IX of the Urban and Rural Planning Act, 2000,

expropriate land, property or an interest in land or property where (

a) the

person who owns the land, property or interest refuses to accept the sum offered

in writing by the council..."

Expropriation is a very drastic step. As a matter of fact, in my twenty-three

years on the council in Mount Pearl only on one occasion did we have to resort

to expropriation. We weren't able to get a settlement with an individual on a

piece of land needed to extend a roadway, namely Commonwealth Avenue in Mount

Pearl at the time.

I just wanted to note that when we talk about expropriating land we had

better make sure that we have guidelines in place. Because giving local councils

the authority to be able to just go out and expropriate land without having

proper in-service done might lead to great concerns, great confusion and great

difficulties.

I want to note that the expropriation of lands and houses is a very drastic

measure. Because in clause 113,

section 222(1)(

d) it says that the council may

expropriate land or an interest in land or property where, "for another

reason the council considers it advisable to do so."

Before we go out and start expropriating land and buildings we had better

make sure that we have some good guidelines in place, I know there are

guidelines in place in other pieces of legislation, but this particular act,

this particular provision, gives some great authority to the councils. I have

great concerns about the manner in which some of these provisions might be

carried out by some of the smaller councils, because they do not have the

resources or the expertise that might be available to some of our larger

municipalities.

There are some other matters that we will talk about when we come to the

clause-by-clause analysis. Overall, I want to say to the minister that this

particular piece of legislation is a positive piece of legislation. We need lots

of in-service and the smaller municipalities will need lots of help. We can't

continue to see the department washing its hands of its responsibilities to the

smaller municipalities because the bigger ones will look after themselves. The

smaller municipalities have to look to the minister, and have to look to the

planning expertise that is there. It is no good to say to a small community of

300 people: You have a council. Now if you want to do something, you have to go

out and do your own planning.

These municipalities are turning off their street lights because they can't

afford to keep them on. We are saying they have to go out and hire a planner,

hire a consultant, and pay the cost of the commissioner who has been appointed.

In many cases it could lead to a situation where things will be done without the

proper procedures being followed, not because they don't want to, and in some

cases not because they don't know the difference, but because they have no

choice. They can't afford it.

I am saying to the minister: Please have a look at the implications of this

particular piece of legislation on the smaller units in the Province. There are

290 municipalities. There are thirty or forty that are well able to look after

themselves. They don't need the minister' protection or the minister's

understanding. When we talk about autonomy, and we are giving local autonomy to

municipalities, please make sure that we give some resources as well. We can't

let this department become purely policy setting without reaching out to the

smaller municipalities and saying to them: We are there to help you. If you can't

afford the expertise, we are going to help you make the right decisions.

I know the minister is listening. I know the Minister of Fisheries is

certainly listening, because he knows what I am talking about when I talk about

the smaller municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. We are talking about

downloading here. We are talking about giving autonomy. Autonomy without

resources is no autonomy at all. We are simply saying that you can have the

freedom to do certain things under this act if you are a municipal councillor,

but if you don't give the municipalities the power, and give them help with

the taxation base they have and that they need, this particular piece of

legislation will lead to a lot of frustration, a lot of troubles, because not

all municipalities have the resources to be able to effectively administer its

provision.

During the clause-by-clause analysis, we will have a few more comments.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to say a few words on behalf of our caucus with respect to the

legislation, the Urban and Rural Planning Act. This is a new act, as the

minister noted, replacing the previous legislation which was due for an

overhaul, and the changes that have been made to provide a greater role for the

municipalities in planning their own affairs is a welcomed one - with some

qualification.

We are appreciative of the changes that provide for greater local control and

autonomy in certain areas. I would also like to point out that there are also

new obligations on municipalities in terms of requiring consultation to take

place before plans are put in place, or regulations put into place. A public

consultation is required before the adoption of a development plan or

development regulations. That is a pretty important provision. I know the City

of St. John's has done that for some time with respect to development

proposals, and they have a highly developed system of public hearings for

circumstances, and they have used them, broadly speaking, in a very good way.

We do see around the Province, however, increasing obligations as a result of

this act placed on municipalities, and there may well be, as a result of that, a

number of municipalities who find difficulties and need a great deal more

support from the department to be able to carry out their obligations under the

act.

We have seen in the debate in the last couple of days, about the great

authority the minister has with respect to giving orders to municipalities as to

what to do in particular situations where the minister feels councils should act

against the transgressor, and all sorts of broad powers being given. Here we

are, giving responsibilities to municipalities. I think we have to find a

balance between the level of local autonomy and local involvement that we would

want to see and, the same time, some degree of control by the Province over

issues of which the Province ought to have a major concern.

I can see major planning issues which at one time could not be undertaken

without the full participation and approval of the department. In fact, it took

a great deal of time in many cases for a plan to be approved, and often

developments were held up because the department was unable to handle requests

from municipalities to have a plan approved and there was a big backlog. We are

now seeing responsibilities for a lot of these things being passed over to the

municipalities and there is some question as to whether these municipalities

have the resources, the expertise, or the ability to pay for that expertise, to

conduct a lot of this activity.

I wonder whether the minister could address that when she clues up debate, as

to what provisions her department is making to ensure that the resources are

available to municipalities, whether extra funds to hire individuals or whether

she is planning to step up support for municipalities, particularly those ones

without much in the way of a tax base.

We have seen, over the last number of years, particularly since the cod

moratorium, municipalities having to turn off the lights, as it were, turn of

street lights, close down some of what would be considered to be basic services,

and cut back because they do not have the ability to meet their obligations. We

have seen, time and time again, municipalities unable to meet their obligations

to service their debt. We have seen government having to step up support for

municipalities in those areas, and now we are here imposing new responsibilities

on municipalities.

Now, I am not saying we should not give municipalities more autonomy. What I

am saying is that it is giving them a great deal of responsibility, and a

responsibility for which they may well not have the kind of training they need

to handle.

Big municipalities, larger towns and cities in this Province certainly have

their own expertise and they are, of course, the ones with the bigger tax base

to be able to hire their own dedicated planners, experts who are able to advise

them to prepare these plans to deal with changes and at the same time meet their

obligations to their own citizens. I don't want to see a whole series of

complaints about the responsibilities that small municipalities in particular

have.

The basic principles we support. We support having more direct

responsibilities in determining their procedures, approving their plan,

developing regulations, and amendments to that. There does need to be some

oversight by the Province because we cannot have hundreds of municipalities

taking a totally different approach to the planning process. There has to be a

general approval process that is acceptable to the Province, because there are

basic principles that are at work.

There are also, I think, in certain parts of this Province, municipalities -

such as St. John's, such as Corner Brook perhaps, and other municipalities -

that have special obligations because they are, in fact, the protectors of some

very important provincial resources that are important to all of the people of

this Province, whether they be particular historic resources, whether they be

historic neighbourhoods, whether they be particular matters that are of broad

provincial interest. I guess I can use one.

Some might say that the streetscapes of downtown St. John's is not a

provincial resource; it is up to the city to do with what they like. They can

tear down whole blocks, they can change the regulations to allow certain types

of development in the middle of downtown St. John's, despite the fact that it

is recognized a historic neighbourhood and historic areas. Some w