Manitoba Hansard — 1 February 1960 (Sitting 10, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 10 February 1, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba� Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Monday, February 1, 1960, 2:30p.m. Tabling of Reports, Returns . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 173 Statement re Fire at Kelsey, Mr. C arroll ........ ...... ..... . . . .. ....... .. .. . : . . . . Ruling, Mr. Speaker ..... ......•. ................................ ... ............ Division on Ruling ......... ....................•........ ................. Second Readings: Bill No. 17, re Public Libraries (Mr. McLean) ................... . Bill No. 14, re Public Utilities -Board (Mr. Carroll) ............... ...• .....

Bill No. 15, re Judgments Act (Mr. 'Lyon) ................................ . Bill No . 16, re Registry Act (Mr-. Lyon) .................................. . Bill No. 21, re Apprenticeship Act (Mr. Cari'ol1) .•. .......... •........ ..... Throne Speech Debate.: Mr. P,refontaine ......... -.. ... . . _ .. , ., .•.•.... ...... •••.•...• Mr. F-ro es e .... .. .... .. ... .......... ....... .•. ....•..........•............ Mr. ·Guttormson ........................................................ . Mr. Schreyer ................................. .... ........... •..•..• ... Mr.

Ro·berts 0 ......... . . .. . .... .. . . .. 00 ••••• • ••••••• ·· -· · ••••• ••• ·;· ·· -· ·• '• •• 173 174 175 175 176 176 177 177 177 186 187 189 192 Division <>n Amend-merit .... -.... •. -. . ...... . . ... ..• . . . •• . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . • . . . 196 iNDEX TO VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS, 1960 Introduction of New Members .... -.. -.•........ -.•... •..... -.. • •. •.• .• .. • .. . .. - -. -. . . . .. • . 5 Speech from The Thr-one Debate.: Mr. Groves, MT. Jeannotte, Mr. Campbell . . . . . . . • . 6 Resolutio11-: Rules �Mr. Lyon), Mr. Prefontaine , Mr.

Paulley..... .. . . . . .. . . . . .• . . •. •. 32 Motion: Election Act (Mr. Ly-on), Mr. Pat1llrey, Mr. Camp:beU .. ••...• .. .... • · ..• • , . • -34 Introduction of Bills: Nos. 43, 27, 14, 1'8, 45 .. ..... . .-........... ....... - ...... -.-... 35 Orders for Returns-: Mr. Prefonta!i-ne, Mr. Dow . . . . . . . . .• . • • . . . . .• . . •• . . . . . . . . . • . . -37 Speec:h from The Thrc0ne Debate:: Mr. Paulley .. • ....... •• .. ...•..•... •.•. ••.•.• , -. . 38 Introduc�ion of Bills: N-os. 20, 3, l9, 49, 36 . ..... -......•.... -. -..•.•..... -.•..• · .. ·.• 49 Speech from The Throne Debate.: Mr. Fr<>ese, Mr.

Orlikow ... ..•.... ..•. •... ..... -. • 50 Bill No. 2 (Mr. Hutton) 2nd ReaWn.g; Mr. Campbell, Mi'. Roberts . -.. .. , , .. .. •. ... ... SO Bill No. 4 (Mr. J'<>hnson, Gimli) 2nd Reading: Mr. Campbell ....•............ ·• ...... 62 Bill No; 5 (Mr. Roblin) 2nd Reading: Mr. Campbell, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Gray........ 62 Bill No. 6 (Mr. R_o blin) 2nd Reading: Mr. Campbell •............ ............ ....• , 64 Bill No. 8 {Mr. Johnson, Gimli) 2nd Reading ................................. -.... 65 Introduction of Bills: Nos. 52, 54, 15, 16, 50, 52, 17 . . . . ... . ,...................... 67 Statement, re Television, Mr.

Carron ..•.......... ... •. ·• . ..... . .... . .. ·. . . . . . . • . . . 69 Motion, re Agricultural Credit Corporation, Mr. Shoemaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . 70 Resolu1;ion_, re School Construction Grants, Mr. Dow, Mr. Schreyer.................. 73 Speech from The 'Throne Debate: Mr. Peters, Mi'. Stanes . • . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . • . . . . . 76 Introt:l\lction of Bills: Nos. 55, 56 ..... •• .. : ......... • . . . . . . . .. .... . • .... · . . •. -. •. -. ; 81 Bill No. 3 (Mr.

Lyon) 2nd Reading .. . .. • ..... • •...•..... -. -...... ...... • • . . . . . . . . . . . 86 Throne Speech Debate: Mr. Schreyer, Mr. Seaborn, Division on Amendment to the Amendment ....• ........ ... ..•.. -.. • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 87 Introdl!ction of Bill, No. 57 .. .' .' . . . . .. . . . . ...... .. . .... . . ............. : . . . . . . . . . . . 95 Questi0)1S .. ..•... .... .............. ..•..•......•... - .• •. • , . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 104 Throne Speech Debat_s!: Mr. Martin, Mr. Htyhorczuk, Mt. Christiiuison, Mr. Dow, Mr. Desjardins, Mr. Weir, Mr.

McLean, Mr. :Hutton . . .. . . ... . .. . .. .. .. . . 123 Motion, re Agricultural Credit (Mr. Shoemaker) Mr. Smellie, ivl:t. Wagner .... .• •• , • . 134 Tabling of Ifeports, Questions •• .• ... ... •• • .. • ..... . , • • . • . . . . • . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . • . 141 Motion re Agricultural Credit (Mt. Shoemaker) Mr. :Roberts . .... . ... . . . .... . .... ,. .. 15i Motion re Pensions increase, Mr. Gray .• . . ... •. ..• •.•• • • ..... .. .. ..• .. .• .... • .. • 152 Throne Speech Debate: Mr. Reid, Mr. Scarth, Mt. Til.nchak, Mr. :Roblin .... ..• •• ... 154

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, February 1st, 1960. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing & Select Committees Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills Orders of the Day HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I wish to lay on the table of the House the Annual Report of the Board of Gov ernors of the University of Manitoba for the year ended March 31st, 1959. HON. GURNEY EV.AJ.'l"S {Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, before you proceed with the Orders of the Day I would like to lay on the table a return to the Order of the House No. 5 on the motion of the Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. JOHN THOMPSON (Minister of Public Works) (Virden): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to lay on the table the Annual Report of the Department of Public Works for the fiscal year 1958/59. MR. S, PETERS {Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works with regards to the traific lights that are supposed to be in operation at the junction of Highway 59 and Nairn Ave. When can we expect to see them in operation? MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the Honourable Member, and I wish to thank him for giving me notice of this question. The Traffic Cont-.col at the intersection to which he refers is the responsibility of the City of Winnipeg. We are advised by this City that they expect the installation to ta.�e place during the summer of this year, 1960. l';ffi. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Mines & Natural Resources) {Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I wish to lay on the table the Annual Report for the Department of Mines & Natural Resources for the period ending March 31st, 1959. Copies of this ·will be available to all the members. MR. SPEAh�R: Orders of the Day. lVIR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker •••• Oh, I'm sorry. MR. SPE.A .. .KER: The ·Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Go ahead •••• , HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to lay on the table a nil report of the Water Conserva tion Districts Act, the report of the Directors. Before the Orders of the Day I would like to lay on the table an Annual Report of the Directors for the year ending March 31st. 1959 of the Manitoba Water Supply Board; the . Annual Report of the Directors of the Crop Insurance Test Act for the year ending March 3�, 1959; the Annual Report of the operations of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1959. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day.

Can the Minister of Public Utilities tell us abour the fire in the Hydro plant --north? HON •. J. B • CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilities) (The Pas): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I had planned to make a statement at this time on the fire. I have received today at noon a tele tY',?e co=unication from Kelsey which reads as follows: --and I must confess to the House that I haven't had an opportunity of reading it over as it was just typed before I came in - "While we must await reports on the investigations being conducted by Mr.

Campbell of the Fire Commissioners Office as to the cause of fire on January 30th, it would appear as though it started by malfunctioning of an oil heater being used to provide heat to forms and concrete for scroll case of No.5 unit. Very intense heat from burning timber, fanned by draft through scroll case and dra..ft tube openings spread the flames and intense beat quickly throughout the entire power house area forcing evacuation of a building and preventing any close approach by fire fighters.

Flames which travelled the full length of the Power House ignit !:ld insulating compound in Erection Bay area producing intense heat in the vicinity of the Power HoUJ3e crane. February 1st, 1960. Page 173.

(Mr. Carroll, cont'd.) ••••• Fortunately no appreciable quantities of oil were involved in the fire. I repeat, these are present opinions of those who were close at hand and must be subject / - to correction as to detail, etc. now being inquired into by Mr. Campbell. Fire damage is of course quit e heavy but of an erratic nature. Much of erected turbines, generators, circuit breaker and control equipment appears to have come through remarkably well. On the other hand, much gear and components awaiting erection were badly damaged, much of it beyond pos sible- repair, The minimum repair requirements include (

a) complete re-roofing, that's of the Power House (

b) complete or almost complete re-sheathing of the building (

c) removal and re placement of much concrete and imbedded turbine parts of No. 5 unit (

d) very heavy repairs to the Power House crane (

e) replacement of substantial quantities of structural steel which were deformed by heat and consequent expansion, etc. Yet to be assessed are (

a) even preliminary estimates of extent of structural steel damage and value of damage to equipment (

b) extent of damage to No.5 head-gate (

c) time required to- rehabilitate crane and supporting steel, both of which are required for all but No. 1 unit, the heavy lifts for which appear to have been comple- ted, and (

d) factory time required for replacement of damaged components. Our main emphasis here at present concerns minimizing effect of fire upon commissioning schedules, particularly units No. 1 and 2, an all out effort being made in this regard. Impossible to estimate the amount of damage, but quick judgment here points to likelihood of over-all damage could exceed $1,000,000.00. Re gret to inform that Mr. D.

W.Miller, resident Engineer of the Project for H.G.Acres & Company of Niagara Falls, Ontario , Consulting Engineers for the Board, was injured by a fall which he suff ered upon entering the darkened Power House after the fire. Mr. Miller suffered serious internal injuries and is presently receiving treatment in a Winni peg hospital. And I would like to remind you that the Board has full insurance coverage on all its investments in the project." That's the end of the report which I have just received._ MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Utilities. An official of the Drivers License Suspension Appeal Board has said that the Board has no responsibility to the government or the Minister of Utilities. Could he tell me if this is a fact? MR. CARR OLL: Mr. Speaker, this 1s not a fact. MR. W. G. lVIARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to correct an error which appeared in the written record of Manitoba's contribution to Canadian Parliamentary Debate, namely Hansard.

On the _issue of January 28th on Page lOS I'm recorded as having said that I believe that all opposition criticism of government policies is "ibberish ji�berish". Well, Mr.

Speaker, that's a weird and wonderful word--"ibberish"- and lest some honourable members may think that I was using llie language of Esperanto or I had gleaned the word from the latest edition of the Moon Daily News which had been brought back to us by some missile or rocket that had returned to earth, I would like to point out that the word that I used was not "ibberish" but "feverish" so that what I really said was that I be lieve that the opposition criticism of goverument policies is "feverish jibberish ", and I thought Mr.

Sp.'3aker, the records should be made clear and correct so that future generations perus ing this tome will have a better understanding of what was really meant. note is tlie questions on the Order Paper by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. We had considerable discussion at the last session whether this motion was in order or not, and I pro mised to bring a ruling to the House as soon as possible, and I am prepared to give that ruling now, and it reads as follows: "On Friday last the Honourable Member for LaVerendrye, Mr.

Roberts, had a written question on the Order Paper standing in his na:me, dealing with assis tance to Manitoba farmers under the Sire Policy, Purchase Policy of pure-bred bulls. After a lengthy discussion on a point of order as to the admissibility of the three clauses of this ques tion, I have decided to give my ruling at a later date. After due consideration I must rule that the first two clauses of this question to be admissible. The third clause which reads as follows: No. 3.

If so, for what reason has this assistance been reduced, involving as it does the matter of government policy is out of order ?" lVIR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, • ••• there is no point in debating the matter at this stage, I would just like to •• ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order! I might point out to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that the decision of the Speaker once l!lade is not debatable. Page 174. February 1st, 1960.

MR. CAMPBELL: That is correct, Mr. Speaker, I was not going to debate the decision that was made or to raise a further point of order. I was just going to suggest that inasmuch as the committee is sitting and studying the rules that I'm glad that this matter will have the oppor tunity of coming up at that time as well. MR. SPEAKER: The other resolution on questions, again by the Honourable Member for LaVerendrye. I'm prepared to give a ruling on that one as well, and it reads as follows: "On Friday last the Honourable Member-for La Verendrye, Mr.

Roberts, had a written question on the Order Paper standing in his name dealing with PF AA. After a lengthy discussion on a point of order as to the admissibility of the two clauses of this question I had decided to give my ruling at a later date. In this case I must rule that Clause 1 and 2 deal with matters over which the Minister is not responsibile to the legislature or with matters within his official knowledge.

May I refer the honourable Member to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, Fourth Edition 1958, citation 17lx - "a question oral or written must deal with the actions of a minister for which he is not responsible to parliament or with matters not within his official knowledge." I may also refer the honourable member to Beauchesne's same edition, citationl78, Page 152, which reads, in part, as follows: 178.

"Questions addressed to Ministers should relate to the public aff airs with which they are officially connected, to proceedings pending in parliament, or to any matter of administration for which the Minister is responsible. Within these lines an explanation can be sought regarding the intentions of the government but not an expression of opinion upon matters of policy." Replying on the foregoing citations I must rule that the ques tion be inadmissible. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I regret to say that I find it necessary to appeal the ruling. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the Members.

Question before the House is -- shall Mr. Speaker's ruling be sustained. A standing vote was taken the result being as follows: YEAS: Alexander, Baisley, Bjornson, Carroll, Christianson, Corbett, Cowan, Evans, Forbes, Groves, Hamilton, Hutton, Ingebrigtson, Johnson (Assiniboia), Johnson (Gimli), Klym, Lyon, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Ridley, Roblin, Scarth, Seaborn, Shewman, Smellie, Stanes, Strickland, Thompson, Watt, Weir, Witney. NAYS: Campbell, Desjardins, Gray, Guttormson, Harri s, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Molgat, Paulley, Peters, Prefontaine, Re id, Roberts, Scbreyer, Shremaker, Tanchak, Wagner, Wright. MR.

CLERK: Yeas 32; Nays 18. MR.SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. Second reading of Bill No. 17. The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health & Welfare that Bill No. 17,

an Act to amend The Public Libraries Act be now read a second time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion, 1\IIR. McLEAN: Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of provisions in this Bill; First of all the present Libraries Act provides that the Deputy Minister of Education shall be a melnber of the Public Libraries Advisory Board and shall be the Chairman of that Board, The first provision in the Bill is to provide that the Deputy Minister of Education or the Assistant Deputy Minister of Education, as may be designated by the Minister from time to time, shall be a member of the Board, and that the Board shall elect_ its own Chairman.

This is to get us away a little bit from the restriction imposing the obligation upon the Deputy Minister to be a member and to be Chairman of that Boarc.., The second general provision is with respect to the payment of grants. As I informed the House when this was introduced on the first occasion, that the grants have been paid under the Supply Bill, annually under the Supply Bill, we considered it advisable to put a provision in the Public Libraries Act providing the authority for the payment of grants to regional and municipal libraries. This

section of the Bill also contains a provision that 75% or three-quarters of the establishment grant shall be used for the purchase of books :__ that follows a recommendation to the Minister by the Advisory Board established under the :Act. There is a fUrther provision for having by-laws which are to establish or provide for establishing regional libraries approved by the Minister in charge of the Act, and pe;rhaps the February 1st, 1960. Page 175.

(Mr. McLean, cont'd,) •••• • most important

section of the Bill is one which would enable two regional libraries, after a recommendation by the Boards of the regional libraries, and after a by-law passed by the Municipal Councils concerned, and after a vote by the electors of the respective regions to join. It is expected that perhaps in some cases there may be desire on the part of regional libraries to join together forming one region, perhaps out of two or more regions.

And also as part of that same general provision, a further provision to allow a muni cipality not already within a regional library, an established regional library, after conducting a vote and taking the usual procedure, to join an established regional library. I should point out to the House that an error, at least not an error, but an omission, in subsection 6 of the new

section proposed by

section 5 of the Bill, where it says that "a by-law under. subsec<ti.on· 4 shall not be finally passed and so on." There should have been in there "under subsections 4 and 5," and I propose to bring in an amendment when the Bill is in committee simply to cor rect that omission from that section.

In addition, it was intended to have a provision in the Bill providing that where references in the Act are required to the Municipal and Public Utility Board, that those references shall now be to the Municipal Board that was through inadvertence overlooked in the drafting of the Bill, and I propose to propose that amendment when the Bill is in Committee. :MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after· a voice vote declared the motion carried, MR.

SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No.14. The Honourable the Minister of Utilities. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Spea ker,. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Public Welfare that Bill No. 14,

an Act to amend the Public Utilities Board Act be now read a second time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. :MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, under the present Act the Public Utility Board approves the construction standards for telephone and telegraph lines, but is not required to approve the construction standards for electric power transmission lines.

The only provision in the Act is one which says that the power line must be sixteen feet above public roads and a public place, So it would be our intention to eliminate these sections which deal with the height from the Act, and set it up in the same way as we deal with the telephone lines and the telegraph lines, so that the Public Utility Board can write into regulations standards which will be more realistic, be cause as we know with the greater use of electricity and the higher voltages we need greater protection than what is presently afforded under the provisions of this Act.

And last year the CSA published its first set of standards in this country and we would propose to use this largely as basis for the standards which would be approved by the Board in connection with transmission lines. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared.the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 15.

An Act to amend The Judgments Act. The Honourable the Attorney-General. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General)(FortGarry): Mr. Speaker, Ib eg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that Bill No. 15,

an Act to Amend the Judgments Act be now read a second time, Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. LYON : Mr. Speaker, this is one of those Bills where probably a few words of ex planation by myself are required if members would refer to the explanatory notes. I may say that as indicated in the notes this situation with respect to the Registry Act and the Judgments Act was forcibiy brought to � ur attention by a recent judgment in the Court of Queen's Bench, and pursuant to the situation that arose there an amendment is now being proposed in the form which we find it in this Bill. .

There is a companion amendment to the Registry Act taking cer tain sections, two· sections out of the Registry Act, placing them into the Judgments Act, I think when we get into committee, Mr. Chairman, I will have two minor amendments to make to the Bill as it. presently stands. Mr, Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, :MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 16. The Honourable the Attorney-General. Page 176. February 1st, 1960.

MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that BillNo. 16, anActto amend the Registry Act be now read a second time, Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 21. The Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities, MR . CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister o;f Education that Bill No. 21,

an Act to amend The Apprenticeship Act be now read a second time, Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR . CARROLL: Mr. Spea.. ker, under the present Act the Trade Advisory Board can make certain rules in connection with the trade over which they deal. One of them deals with the qualifications with respect to age. We propose to eliminate this. We feel that a man should not be held up because of age qualifications. We feel it's more � roper that there should be minimum educational qualifications rather tha:o. the age qualification.

And at the same time we're adding five new trades tc the schedule, for which the apprenticeship program can be ap, plied if and when it is deemed adVisable by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. We have at the present time 71 trades listed with only 18 presently designated. This in no way commits the government to designating these. trades at any subsequent time. The trades that are being added to the list are barbers, cooks, electronics, technicians, hairdressers and television workers. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member of St. Vital on a:o. address to His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor, in answer to his speech at the opening of the Session; and the proposed amendment standing in the name of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Carillon. �Y.IR. EDMOND PREFONTATI�E (Carillon): Mr.

Speaker, I do not take it as a duty but as a great pleasure to be able to offer to you today my congratulations, and I would like you to believe that they are very sincere. And I would like to wish to you and to your wife, Mrs. Harrison, my best wishes for many years of good health and happiness. I would like to con gratulat-:; the mover of the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne. Evidently he spent long hours in doing his homework, He has independence and courage and a good delivery. These qualities I am sure will lead him quite far and I wish him well in his public life. W.tr.

Prefontaine spoke in French. Tra:o.slation in later Hansard. I would lL�e to offer my congratulations to the new Ministers starting by the Honourable, the M:inister of Mil:!es & Natural Resources. Unfortunately I had missed his main address at the last session but I had the pleasure to listen to him when he spoke to the Manitoba School Trustees of Manitoba the other night, and I realize that in a very short time he had mastered a lot about his department and I think he will be quite an asset to his Leader. I would like to offer my congratulations , also, to the Minister of Agriculture.

I am glad to see that we have in this department a natural farmer who knows how hard it is to make a dollar on the fa.'Fln, and to keep a dollar, because if you have to buy machinery or have some repairs made, the dollars don't last long. He has made a good start. I might have to criticize lili:n a little bit later on, but I am sure that he wiil not take it as malice on my part, but on a matter of principle. I would like to cong-.catulai:e the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I do not think, Mr, SpeaJ;:er, that the Premier could have made a better choice tc head that department.

He's such e. nice gentleman, so easy to :meet, that I'm sure that he will make quite a bit with the municipal men of thls province, a:o.d I wish him well in that position. I think I should like also to offer some congratulations, and they are sincere, to the new Minister of Public Works. This Minister to my way of looking at it has been honoured to a new post, one of the most important in the government.

And if he remembers correctly I think he will remember that when I suggested to his leader at mock parliament last year after I heard my friend, the Honourable Minister of Health & Welfare make his famous speech, I thought that there might be a coalition between the CCF and the Conservatives, I suggested a mock cabinet and in that cabinet I had the Honourable present Minister of Public Works in that position. The people of the whole province had confidence in him. They will be watching him and they are February 1st, 1960. Page 177.

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd.), •••• sure that he wiLl make his decisions. There are very impor tant decisions to make. He will make his decisions on the basis of what is best for each region for Manitoba as a whole. · I have great pleasure also in welcoming the new members to this legislature, especially so this year because for the first time in many years we have a charming lady member. My first words of welcome of course are addressed to her personally.

She evidently has gained a lot of Jriends in the constituency of Cypress, one of the best constituencies in this province, and when I saw that she came into this House in the second row, I thought that it was quite an achievement, but I really had expected that she might achieve the front row. Mr. Speaker, I think that she looks so young and so full of vigor that I would like to suggest to the Premier that he should open up his Cabinet a little more and appoint her immediately as Minister of Youth, Physical Fitness and Recreation. I would like to welcome the Honourable Member for Arthur.

We haven't had the chance to hear him much, but the few words he has said has proven to us that he can say a lot and say it well. I would like to welcome the Honourable, the Member for Rhineland. He has delivered a good speech in this House. I'm not sure whether he was elected because of his political affili ations. I am sure of one thing, that he is well liked and well respected in his community, that he has served it well, that he is still the vice-president of the Manitoba School Trustees11 Asso ciation, and that he will be an asset to this House.

But frankly, maybe except for the lady member, the member I am most pleased towel come is the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. I had the occasion and the honour to speak at the nominating convention some two years ago when he was chosen as a candidate. I have known him very well for quite a long time. He was president, I believe, of the Manitoba Urban Association when I was at the head of the Department of Municipal Mfairs. We had many meals and trips and conversations together. I am pleased that he is in the House today.

He will pick up a little bit of experience and in three years time he will be an asset within the Liberal government that's going to be formed at that time on the other side of the House. Be cause I really believe, Mr. Speaker, that there will be a Lilieral government in this province before long. Conservative governments have not lasted very long -- of course they have not been in office in this province for a long,long time.

But in Ottawa there was one Conservative government in 1930 led also by a man who had preached on the. air for about a year a new gos pel, promising a new era, saying he would blast his way into the markets of the world, that he would stop the coming of New Zealand butter onto Canadian markets. He had over-reached himself, he could not fulfil his promises, and after five years the people of Canada elected somebody else. In the federal field we have Mr.

Diefenbaker, a little more than an evangelist speaking to his fellow Canadians and promising to them a new Canada; promising to them "parity not charity", promising to them that he would increase services and reduce taxes. Is he fulfilling his promises? I do not think so. And the two recent by-elections in the federal field proved to us that my leader was right the other day when he said that the conservatives were on the slide. There were two by-elections, the liverals doubled their majority in one seat, and the conservatives saw their majority cut in half in the other seat.

Coming to Manitoba, we've had a general election a few months ago, and, lo and behold! we've had another miniature general election a few months later. Now everybody knows and believes that people like to vote on the winning side and to be on the winning side. I for one lost a bet because I was quite sure that the conservatives would sweep the whole four seats. But what happem d? The conservatives lost 2, 000 votes and lost 1 seat. The L!!Jerals did little better than hold their own, and there is a new man in the House.

These men of vision, they go up ve�J high, very rapidly, but they can fall, also, very, very rapidly. Now, coming to the Throne Speech. To me, Sir, it was an anti-clima.'!: to the two speeches that we have heard before. The March Throne Speech and the J.une Throne Speech. Quite an anti -climax, except for an announcement of this atomic energy plant proposed here, and I dare to say that the government had not much to do with the situation. They might approve or make a land deal. And also the announcement of the new development at Grand Rapids. Of course that development was announced two years ago.

The preliminary surveys were done during the time that the liberals were in office, but outside of these two announcements there Page 178. February 1st , 1960.

(Mr. Prefonta.ine, cont' d.) ••• •• was nothing, practically nothlng in the Speech from the Throne, just a re- hash of old things, and I s .. ay that it was a full meal of left-overs. I call it "operation go slow" or "operation change of pace." That, to me, is what it is. Alld the First Minister was surprised that the Leader of the Opposition had the audacity to move a Want of Confidence motion on the grounds that the promises made had not been implemented. I am not surprised, because I'm another one, Mr. Speaker, who believes that the promises were not �plemented.

Some not at all, and some only partially, and that the party did not live up to its promises made during those elections. We were called-- I'm not quite sure, but I think the word was used "Hypocrites," That we were indulging in double-talk because we thought that they were going too slow. They were going too slow because of their promises, not our promises. Every body knows in Manitoba that we never promised, when we went before the people, that we promised that we would introduce in Manitoba a Manitoba Credit plan -- Farm Credit Plan. We never promised that.

We didn't do it when we were in power, and we never promised it in the elections. We never promised Crop Insurance. We never did. We didn't want to, because we thought it could be developed only if all the western prairies worked together and after a federal act had been passed. We had studied it, of course, very fully. It seemed to the First Minister tha:t it was the Campbell administration that was on trial when he spoke the other day� It was not in any way, shape or form. It was his own administra tion, It is his own record-that is on trial at the present time and to which this amendment is directed. Mr.

Speaker, he made quite a violent speech the other day, but this speech was made in the past three elections nearly all over the Province of Manitoba, just about the same speech. His promises, he would do this, be would do that; now he says he has done it, he has done that. Just about the same speech, and he condemned the Campbell administration all over Manitoba for failure to do this or to do that, as be condemned the leader of our party the other day. I think he is forgetting one thing. He is living in the past. Mr.

Speaker; it suited his purpose, of course, it gave him a lot of ammunition I suppose to repeat the main story. He made a lot of noise. Spoke very loud at times, but I'm not one of those who believes that a loud noise from the chest necessarily indicates a deep messag e from the brain. There were unfulfilled promises, and there are unfulfilled promises. Many of them. One promise was made that this could be done without the taxes being raised, This promise was not kept. Was not kept. I have before me an

article published in the Winnipeg Free Press of October 5th, under the signature of ENS "Where the extra millions came from" The

article is long to read-- I'll quote some of it. "Four or five millions were gotten from the experts of the Roblin .administration." Fees. They thought of fees even before the last general election. But did it stick with that? They changed their mind when it was too hot. Haying permits have been demanded from the farmers. Camping rates have been increased. There were apparently, according to the

article 800 rebates. The time of the Civil Service was employed in giving re bates, because it was politically dangerous to stick with the first decision.

But, say the article, and I'm quoting now, "But the principle of the fee as a source of revenue evidently stuck in the government's mind, 11 Alld in order that I should tell you the fees I have just quoted, I checked as far as I could from the Gazette, but this is much easie r here, and I trust that you will believe that the quotation is correct, "S"hortly after the episode of Haying fees, the govern ment announced a drastically up-graded scale of fees at the Manitoba Teacher's College. Tuition doubled from $50 a year to $100. Alld board. and room for resident students jumped from $300 to $400 per year.

Tuition fees for summer school students rose similarly, and even the $100 summer bus tour for teachers became a $150 tour. Permits for cutting trees on Crown lands went up, Charges for other uses of Crown land also went up. Ferry toll charges went up, and mine registration fees increased. In August Court fees abruptly soared. Most of the fees grew fatter by 25 to 50%, but some increased by as much as 500%. The charge for a statement of claim issued by Court of Queen's Bench for example, jumped from $2 to $5. Filing a divorce petition which cost $1 in July, now cost $5.

The changes cover a host of court and legal fees, from the Land Titles Office to the County and Surrogate Courts." I'm just stating facts. "Fees for birth and death registration, marriage licenses -- that's up; fees for Adminis· tration of the Estates of the Mentally Incompetent, and fees under the Securities and Real Estate Agent's Act followed suit. Registration fees paid by real estate agents and salesmen have skyrocketed." Goes on and on. I don't know if I should-- oh I should quote a little fw:tber. February 1st, 1960. Page 179.

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd.) ••• •• ''But the handsomest goose of all in the government's barnyard is liquor. Manitobans annually consume over 500,000 gallons of Canadian spirits, and nearly 150, 000 gallons of imported spirits. The increase· in federal sales and liquor taxes contained in the federal budget in April increased the price of spirits by about 12� per 25 ounce bottle. Manitoba got its share." And now we come to the price of beer.

"The price of beer was increased and it was calculated by the brewers that the government would reap $2 millions a year by that incre::;se." Now I maintain that at least that one is not a service provided by the government. It can't be called a fee, It must be called a tax. It must be called a tax . Just like gasoline tax . It's a tax on a commodity, and I say that the promise not to tax was not kept. What about crop insurance. There was a promise made all over Manitoba that crop in surance would be instituted.

In fact the ex-Minister of Agriculture mentioned that it might be ready for 1959, and he was quizzed about it by the ex-Leader of the CCF party. They came to my constituency. I have somewhat the same program or platform here that was showed to us by the Premier the other day. It's written in French. Mr. Prefontaine speaks in French. It was promised in Carillon constituency. Have they got crop insurance? Will they have crop insurance, and when? The government, it seems to me, led the people to believe that they had a plan.

They had given a lot of thought to the plan, that it was a feasible plan, that it would cover the whole of Manitoba. If they wanted to bring test areas, why didn't they say so and tell the whole truth. If they had stated in their program we will establish test areas to see whether · it works. But no. They said they would establish crop insurance, and they gathered a lot of votes on this promise. And I say, Mr. Speaker, that this promise was not kept. And now, the Honourable Member for Ethelbert the other day expressed certain doubts that maybe in some of these test areas at least, there might not be areas at all.

And he was attacked by the Minister. He was accused of scuttling the program. Mr. Speaker, the Farmers" Union presented a brief to the government and it did present to the Liberal caucus the same brief. And they were asked, "are you going all out to encourage your fa:.-mers to support and to sign on the dotted line?" They said, "No, we are not. We don't like the scheme." And they were asked by us, "will this scheme pass?" Some said maybe, others said no. Are we going to have crop insur ance as promised by the government during these elections and in this House? Nobody knows.

What about the famous speech made by my friend the Honourable, the Minister of Health & Welfare. He was sitting a little further down in the front ro.w, when he made it last year at the time that the cabinet ministers were jumping one over the other as to who would get in his speech first on the amendment of the CCF. They were ready to go to the people. They wanted the headlines, and he certainly gd: headlines. He was promising at that time that no man, woman or child in this province would go without the necessities of life.

They would give the medical, optical and dental care to everyone, if I understood him right. And not on a "means test," but on a "needs test." What have we got today? They were elected. Possibly to a certain extent on that promise. Yes, absolutely. That doesn't mean that they will be here long if the-y don't fulfill their promises. They were elected. What have we got today. How have they fulfilled this promise? They passed the bills giving us to understand that in the Fall they would pro claim it, and that we would have it.

Now we're close to February 1st-- when it is today, tha±- I don't know if it is proclaimed today as yet -- only part of the bill, part of the bill. It will cover the needy old age pensioners, some children that have been committed to the Director of Child Welfare. Yes, and that might be some maybe 8,000 people within this year might receive some assistance under this bill. That's 1% of the population. Maybe 10,000, maybe 16,000. I don't know.

But there will still be in Manitoba a lot of people depending on the present situation, or the situation that existed at the time of the Liberal government, on muni cipal assistance also and on contribution to the municipality by the government. And what really did the Minister mean by a "needs test", instead of a "means test?" I'm s'ure Mr. Speaker, that I never was able to understand exactly what he meant. Of course I think that this is because of my lack of perfect understanding of the English language, but I ask the Minister, "suppose an old gentleman who had to work all his life gets to be 65.

Suppose he has $5,000. in the bank, but suppose he's somewhat of a miser and doesn't like to take his money out to buy himself some glasses. But he "needs" glasses very badly--he needs glasses. He goes to the Minister. The Minister will study the need and he will give him glasses. Or Page 180. February 1st,1960.

(Mr, Prefontai ne , cont' d.) •••• , will the Minister go into his means , whether he has the means to meet this need, So I think that the Minister if he wants -un less he has piles of money that he can spend, all over the place to anyone, who pretends that he has no money to meet hls noo d. He might do that , but I don't think that he will do so because I have a notion , and I'll come to that late r, that money is becoming scarce at the present time . So I say that wifu :n:espect to Social Allowa nces in this famous province that it was only at least p artiall y :imp]eJJillented. What about flo od control ?

Flood control -- and I'm sorry the Premier is. not here . That's where he was so eloq uent . He made a premature statement in this: Ro1l!S:e last. year. Withll!li two' days he made iw o important statements in this. House asking the privili.ege' oi making these state· ments. He was getting ready for an ele cti on of course. Ol1ll tm floood control he made a statement that he would go alone if necessary. He told us he had cons ulltedi ;.mith. Ottawa and had not reached an agreement. He was put on the spot.

"What will you oo u Ottawa doesn't coDiltribute· 75%, or 50%, or 25% , or anything ?" "We will go it alo ne." I say tills was an m-considered and ill advi sed and unstate smanlike statement. Because he was g;Nmg: away hls power of bargaining . MR. LYON: Who asked for it? MR. PREFONTAINE: We did. It was ou res:pons:i!bility to db so, and we were not shirking our responsibility, His respoo smility was: to wait until he had an 3.o<>Teement signed before he made that statement , but he oomw•t wmt h:eeause the el ection was coming and he wanted to make this announcement m the E!oose, '!Nmiieh.

JiJe was }ust abo ut readY to dissolve at that time. He couldn 't wait . ADd Mr. Diefel!lba!ker diJdll!iOt lll£1CliJ'IiliDl odate hin1 to concl ude the agreement before the ele ction was call ed. And I say tJ!l.rnt. oo lost his bargaining power, and posi tion. And this reminds me, Mr. Speaker • m somethmg tilalt mppened to me when I was a Htlle younger and I was a active dairy mm, miill m the Fall I used tQ mve, to· go out and buy cows to supplement my diminishmg supply of nill lli that I was shipping mio Wmmpeg. One dlay 1 came, to a farm house, knocked at the door, tbJ3l ID.alll.

Wll!SI not there but the la(Jiy answered the door and I asked her whether they h2ld :my oow.s: for sale. And she said "yes." Sre said "'Tommy here will go with you and show you too rows m the ba=." So I go with Tomm:y to 1the barn to ]ook at fue cows.

I look them over and tbere was one cow close to the door, a big Ji:;,]ack and white cow that I like d very much, and I said to Tommy, "I woUld like to know how mw:lbt your mother walits: ]o.r this sow." And Tommy said, "Well , I'll go and ask her." And so he .'r'll!SOOS' to, the house and comes back and he said "Si r, " he said, "Momma says she wants $150. for the row. l!:l�•t that if the worst comes to the worst, she '11 sell the cow for $100 ." So the wor.sil. �e to tfue; woTst ri ght away and I bought the cow for $100 . She had lost her bargaining pov1eJr.

Allli!dl ilii a1l's' what was done by a man who was thinking more of politic s last March than tlliilkmg of saving mo lll ey for the people of Manitoba and the taxpayers of this provtnce. This is not what the former Premier of this province did. He was :a;ccus:ro &e €lliiliJe·r day of doing nothing at a time of the flood. It took him some ti me, I admit. bnt �lli:ii.Sl mma '!$lllS a giDoo negotia tor , a good bargain er . If he had jumped into the fray right li!.llllaJ" am; tlrumt tiime� fif he had jumped into the fr ay like our friend the leader of the Conservatives � m� now, wat ;v.omd have happened?

He would have had less bargaining power with the JFOO.SQi':ll gove .l1Jill11Elem 11© g:ell. 75%, .And he waite d, and some people were diss atisfie d, but he w ;;;ns tliri1nl�g of iih'8' 1":re::J!JS'1!1!1'Y of the Provinc e of Manitob a. Telegi·ams went to Mr. St. La:Illll:'!l'Jillft. f:r!ll,m. al'll. �r � jplll'©W'JJru:rre •. One from Morris , and some from st. Jean, and one from :all 'ovel!:'. :m� <lli1iE :liJrom. !Slt. Piierll'e ] should say, because I was in touch also with the gove!'Zh1JD£:Ut. T:!:Je �e, l1'l1ll!lll11!e!lllit was w;.r�g:.

A responsible man who wanted to save the dollars of this promc -a � ooeerl m W�� llis heart was bleeding as much as anybody else 's, but he knew that 'if re j=ped rigb!t a� 1iJel �dt never get 75%. But, when he got the 75%, it was the time of crisis , K 13Jlllmj[t - - w'm!i <iliiiiill he: ti!'<Dil!' Wasn't rehabili tation done in this province and the most kingly and best way ? Wh» � :?JID'<B that the people suffered more? Nobody does. They are all saying that reb:ab'i.lfta:tioo. w:a:s wr,e,]]. done.

And the Leader insisted at that time that the Federal Government should be responsible , not only for fighting the floo d, but to rehabilitate those who suffered from it and also provide a dyke around Winn ip eg. And if he had been so childish as to . jamp·into the fray right away, Mani toba would have lost millions of dollars at that time . And mind you it was not so easy to collect all that money. It took many trip s, It took years. The leader of the government at that time , Mr. Campbell , went to Ottawa time and time again to get the final bills paid. He sent Mr.

Turner the Provinc ial Treasurer at that time, and Mr. Greenlay . It was not so easy._ February 1st , 1960. Page 181.

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd. ), •••• And then the other day the Leader of the Conservative Pa rty accused the Leader of the government at that time to have done nothing when the report of the Red River Basin Investigation was presented. 1953 passed on -- nothing; 1954 - nothing; 1955 -n othing; 1956 -n othing. He had said that all over Manitoba. It was a repetition. But during those years there was something that was done. This report was fully studied and in vestigated; this report was recommending an expenditure of $76,0 00, 000 . And thaf was more than nearly twice the budget of the Province of Manitoba.

No reasonable and responsible Premier of this province would jump like that foolishly without full consideration into this ex penditure, especially knowing the fact that it was so hard to. get money from Ottawa. And during 1954 the pulse of the Federal Government was tested with respect to this matter. It was tested whether the Federal Government would come out with 75% of this construction. But no, the Federal Government was pretty sorry that it had paid in 75% for the packing and the rehabi litation and the dykes. It didn't want to get in again .

And I say that it was a statement like this that was made by the government at that time when they appointed this cost-benefit survey. Oh, it's easy to say we'll do it rapidly, but those who do things rapidly repent at leisure, and we've seen that happen very, very often. What was said by the Leader of the government on Ma rch 19th, 1959 ?

"And I say to you , Sir, that if we had to do this thing all by ourselves I would recommend to this House that we would do it." And further down "You will be asked to provide money to buy land; you will be asked to provide money to get that engineering planning and drawings going that are necessa ry to start digging and all that sort of thing.; We are not bluffing; it's not window-dre ssing, we are going ori with it. And as I said before if we had to go on with it all by ourselves, it would be justified in the public interests". Now isn't that plain language ? And what happened after that? And that was in March.

In July we had the report given to this House by the Leader of the government--a statement of policy--after his trip to Ottawa--and he reported on his negotiations with the Prime Minister. And he told us that he had spent t-wo hours and a half in the forenoon with the PM and the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Northern Affairs and the Minister of Trade and Comm erce. He told us he had met them again in the afternoon and that he had received sympathetic consideration. We are now on the first of February.

We have had no report, except the other day he told us (I haven't had the chance to check in Hans ard)--I believe he told us that he was still negotiating, and that's a year after the fact , after he made this p,romise that he would do it alone. And some of us were starting to believe that he was -dragging his feet on the project. The government has a very good information bureau that dishes out information to the newspapers- -dailies and week lies. There has been very little about the surveys going on on this famous floodway around Winnipeg. It prompted the Honourable Member for st.

Vital to express disappointment right in this Hous e the other day. We learned from the honourable member that the engineers had been boring holes. I had understood that the federal engineers from 1950 to 1953 had bored a lot of holes . The Speech from the Throne says that now that we have had some surveys , we'll go on to the next step. What's the next step ? How many steps ? Is there a step every time they dig a hole? I wonder how many steps. How much time will it take? You may sa y, "well , you didn't do nothing". But you are on trial . These are your promises--not ours .

And you are being held to account for what you promised you would do and are not doing so rapidly, it seems to me. I would like to say a few words about agriculture, and I am sorry that the minister has now left his seat, I would like to compliment him--c ompliment him for the actions he's taken and rather quick actions . I have not much criticism. He had a very tough and difficult situati on to face, Of course , in his emergency assistance program there will be inequities. There is bound to be. I could mention quite a few but I won't take the time of the House, But, all in all , I believe it is a good job .

I do not appreciate the Premier mentioning--c omparing figures --we have spent $300, 000. --we will spend that in comparison to $10, 000, Have we had such an emergency--such a catastrophe in the history of any living member of this House ? Has there been federal contribution? Has there been such a thing? I've been farming on my own for 37 years . I was farming for my dad before that , and we have never seen it. Why compare these figures ? They are not comparable at all. For a good reason, because the situation is not the same at all.

The government has said all over Manitoba that it was a friend of Agri culture; that it was introducing rural credit. It has to a certain extent, pos sibly one-half to Page 182. February 1st, 196 0.

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd .) •• three-quarters of one percent of tbe farmers are getting it. It might introduce-crop insurance; it might in three areas. How long will it be before the whole province is covered? Nobody knows. And the government has met a delegation from the Farm ers• Union and the Farmers' Union have told the government in their brief--the brief which they presented to us the next day--to the effect that these fringe assistance are of a certain advant age, but that it doesn't go to the core of the problem.

The difficulty is that the farmers are facing now the fact that the cost price squeeze is getting tighter and tighter than ever . The cause of everything--What would we do? I hear the question--What would we do? During our days, was there a delegation of 1, 000 farmers that went to Ottawa to ask for justice? Did we, at any time, promise like John Diefenbaker, that we would give parity not charity? No. Your government has done certain things, but it hasn't attacked the heart of the problem. It had good intentions. MR . SPEAKER: ••• , • order.

I must inform the honourable member from Carillon that he is exceeding his time. SOME MEMBERS: •• •• • Go on. MR . PREFONTAINE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr . Chairman and members of the legislature. The government told us in a statement by the Premier of this Province last March 16th--he was reporting on the necessity of having a new federal-provincial conference with res pect to fiscal policies--11But, "he said, "There are things in the agricultural field that should be looked after.

However, the factor bearing on the cost price squeeze in our agricultural eco nomy may well require protracted investigation and debate if they are to be clearly identified and properly illuminated. But the effects of the cost price squeeze on the farmers' well being crystallized as they are, declining net f:>= income, cannot be left to protracted discussion." He carries on in saying that the federal conference should be resumed to discuss farm prices. I don't want to take time to quote any longer. What has he done after that?

He has sent to Ot tawa his Minister of Agriculture last fall--and I can read here just a word--I'll quit. I won't read what I had intended to read because of the time. Here's what it says: "Strangely, the usually vocal Minister of Agriculture from Saskatchewan did not open his mouth. Another min ister who sat silent when other provincial ministers were rising to their feet to keep the con ference going throughout the afternoon, was the Honourable Mr. George Button of Manitoba." He, too, had nothing to say in public about Manitoba agricultural problems.

I say that this is a vital question today and an emergency. I think something should be done. The idea of a fed eral conference to study this problem is a good one. I think it's so important at this time, es pecially after the farmers' representatives from all farmers' organizations have been to Ot tawa and seen Mr. Diefenbaker; so important that I would urge the government to enlist the support of the other provincial governments • tbe western provincial governments , to try and secure immediately, a conference to discuss the plight of the farmers.

The plight is terrific at the present time, Some have lost everything they had. The egg producer, the hog producer is worried. The situation is worse than I do not remember having seen since 1930, and I think I know what I am talking about. Mr. Speaker, this is a serious proposition. If it is necessary, this House could be adjourned for a week to allow the First Minister, and the Minister of Ag riculture to go to Ottawa to follow up the representations made by the farmers' representatives, because they have to have a solution.

It might be deficiency payments, and I say now that's the only solution because the cost of everything that a farmer has to buy is continuously increasing. His net income is decreasing. He can't carry on, And do we want our farmers to be living on relief or lose their farms for a raise of taxes and other reasons? I don't think we want to . I would have liked to have spoken about education. I don't think there is much time except to say to the Minister that he apparently left the impression that the public school in St. Pierre was not better than the barn of Edmond Prefontaine the member for Carillon. MR .

MCLEAN: Mr. Speaker, I made no comment about the school at St. Pierre at any time. MR. PREFONTAINE: Some people have aoked me if that was right. The newspaper· reports that I checked, appeared that it was the Wabowden school, but some thought that it was the St; Pierre school. And I accept the suggestion of the honourable member. I'm ·sorry that the time has gone so fa.St. What about slowness? What about_ February 1st, 1960. Page 183.

•(Mr. Prefontai ne, cont' d.) •• • "operation go slow" -- the Seine River? "Nothing has been done the past yea r. " Nothing has been done on the Seine River, just the extension of a bridge. In 1959 nothing has been done. I travel over the channel every day , morning and night at the present time, And I travel all summer every week. There has been a little bit of a mopping up operation, fillishing of last year 's contract -- no new contract has been let. Is that quick action that this gove=ent boa sts that it gives all the time? What about the Pembina Tria ngle?

It was in the Speech from the Throne last March -- not much action. I don't know how much money they are going to spend this year. It was not in the Speech from the Throne. The road program apparently was a record. Can't vouch for that . 1959 didn't see very much action down in the southeast except that a contract was let but no work was done. There is some justification on that particular contract because of wa±er. Other contracts could have been let. They_ were promised they were announced in the House by the Minister and nothing was done. I'm ski pping on many of the things I wanted to say.

I wanted to talk about the school divisions. The Premier told us the other day that there was a split in the Liberal party and he told us in words that were not too pleasant to hear. I think there is a split in the Conser vative party, a real split, a split between the First Minister and his left-hand Minister, the Minister of Educat ion, a real split. A split that led me to believe for a while that the Min ister of Educ ation might lose his job. And I'm going to prove , I think, if you will give me the time, that wha± I am sa ying now can be based on good facts .

When the Royal Commission on Educa tion made its final report, the report ers, of course, were anxious to know what the Minister had to say. The Minister stated that it would cost a lot of money to implement the recommendations but t ha± there had been no policy de cision. It would cost a-lot of money. One week late r, there appeared in both newspa pers quite a story -- the story in the Tribune of December 9th, and both stories were on the same day -- big headlines "Rising Costs Delay Education Reform ", and the body of the

article "Rising education costs will force the Manitoba Gove=ent to dip into its surplus funds this year and delay some costly school reforms recommended by the Royal Commission on Edu cation" . The Crisis in education costs came into focus this week -- remind that word, this week -- as the Provincial Treasury Board surveyed spending in all gove=ent departments - Provincial Treasury Board again -- quoted by the Tribune. 'The Treasury Board , the finan cial committee of Ca binet, studied all projects involving money before they are submitted to Ca binet.

Treasury Board experts this week discovered tha± $18 million was too low. " In the Free Press on the same day -- their inspiration must have been gathered from the same source Treasury Board experts in the department of education, maybe the Minister himself. The title in the Free Press story is this "Money crisis may force gove=ent control of teachers' pay" -- sub-title "Study plan to take over local bargaining pow ers". The stOI'lJ goes on somewhat the same mentioning a crisis, mentioning something diff erent.

As a result the provincial surplus has been wiped out and the Treasu ry now is trying to figure out how best to deal with a def icit. Now this is information which I claim is reliable. -This last one is signed by Ted Byfi eld, appearing in our pa pers. (Interjection) I claim it is reliable informa tion. They would not write about the Trea sury Boa rd or the experts without having some in fo rmation -- they never do so. (Interjection) Certainly, not in so many details , and it was never refuted by anyone or contradicted that I know of.

Apparently it comes from some re liable source beca use it would not have been printed. Lo and behold! Two days after these appear there was a meeting of the Brokenhead Conservative Association. It was reported -- ·I have one pa per, the Tribune, the title is "Full Speed Ahead on School Spending.

Premier gives hint of surplus " and the words of the Premier as quoted "Despite blue ruin predictions from nervous Nellies who want to turn the clock back twenty years , the provincial gove=ent will continue to increase spending in educati on, welfare , agriculture and other vital fi elds." In a speech to the Brokenhead Conservative Associa tion Thursday night, and in an interview with the Tribune today , Premier Duff Roblin claimed critics of government spending today sim ply don't know the facts as reported coming directly from the Treasury Board.

It goes on to say: "During the past week, the Roblin gove=ent has faced the sharpest criticism of its policy since it was elected on June 19/59". I checked all the reports printed in both the pa pers during this past week. Except for the reports emanating from the Department of Page 184. February lst, 1960.

(Mr. Prefontaine , can't.) ••• Education there was no criticism at all that I could find. MR . MCLEAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. What reports emanating from the Department of Education. MR . PREFONTAINE : As printed in the two daily newspapers on the same day, exactly the same day December 9/59 . MR . MCLEAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I wanted to have it recorded that those reports did not come from the Department of Education. MR . PREFONTAINE: Why weren't they contradicted? And as I said •••• MR . SPEAKER: May I enquire if the honourable member is close to the end of his speech? MR .

PREFONTAINE: Just a few minutes now. MR . SPEAKER: It has been over 15 minutes now. MR.. PREFONT AINE : Jttst a few minutes now • • • And I say that there appears to be a split. I was wondering as I said whether the Minister would hold on to his job . -At the first time, it was at the time that there was t3J.k of Cabinet re-organization. It seems to me that the Premier is very touchy about money, very touchy. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if be has found out that money doesn't grow on trees , or that the interest rates are getting pretty high.

I wanted to quote the interest rates -- 6 and 16 , the highest it has ever been - the last loan. I wonder if the statement made by Mr. J. E. Coyne has him covered when be stated that governments in Canada were living beyond their means. I wonder if the Treasury Board has not found any more gimmicks to extract money painlessly from the taxpayers . It has been stated that successful politicians are those who can take money from the people and make it appear as a gift when they give it back. Maybe this ability has disappeared.

Now it is diff icult to make the people believe that he can carry on this game of taking money pain less'ly, What does the leader do when he.is in that position when he finds that money's getting scarce. Apparently be seems to believe that it is getting scarce be cause he is getting madder and madder when somebody suggests that he hasn't got any money. He attacked the Liberals ; it's the fault of the Liberals. They left us in a mes s . They left us -- they lost so many years -- left us in a mess.

Was there at any time any incoming government left with a situ ation as good as the situation that was handed to the Conservative government when the Liberals went out of off ice? No. Not in the history of Canada. We handed to you the best Civil Service in the country, especially the top echelon. We handed to you the Manitoba Power Commission with rural electrifications all over the province. We handed to you the Telephone System, We handed to you The Hydro-Electric Board. The best part of an elec trical development in Canada.

We handed to you the Trans-Canada highway -- a good high way -- Peri.me.ter Road, well planned and quite advanced, and many good roads in Manitoba, 75 and nl.llllbor 10, roads that were judged good enough by your government that you lifted the weight limits on these roads pretty rapidly. We left you a province where industry was booming. International Nickel had just come into this province . Oil was being developed around Virden. Falcon Lake development had been going on. In the field of legislation the new liquor laws that we had passed were really progressive and good.

New redistribution system from an independant commission. The hospital insurance. And to top it all tb.3 fiscal policies that this government (the late government at least) had been able to achieve $38 million were handed to you because of the work of Mr . Garson and Mr. Campbell. And also a $1 0 million pot in the Post War Emergency Reserve Fund that you could use to loan money to your farmers as you wanted to. Did we lose our time when we were in office or not? You are the luckiest people in the world. Luckiest people in the world. And you should not accuse us.

You're paving the way for an increase in taxes and saying that you have a backlog of work to do. It's not reasonable. It's not fair . And I should like the Premier to be here, because I would like to tell him that politically speaking, he is un grateful . His heart must be pretty black. Otherwise I like him very much. I was asso ciated with him very closely for a full year. I adiDired him, in fa ct , I moved when the democratic movement was trying to get a leader, I moved in the st. Charles hotel , in the presence of my friend , the honourable member for Morris , that he should be our leader.

I didn't get my way. I was the only grit among five tories. Of course , he hesitated. H� February 1st, 1960 . Page 18 5.

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd, ) ••• thought he was a little young, and there were tories there with more experience, but I think I was right at the time, I'm glad that the Honourable First Minister is coming into the House. I was reminiscing to move about the time that we were associated together and that I had the honour to move that you, Sir, should be the leader of om· movement at that time. And I would like to thank .the Honourable Premier for his kind words that he had to say with respect to Mr. Campbell. It was worthy of him.

I would like to tell him that I agree with him that the two of them together are giving Mani toba fairly good government; but I will go further and say that the two of them together, when the places were reversed, were giving Manitoba good government; and I would say that in three o� four years time the two of them together, with places reversed again, will give Manitoba a still much better government. .r Now I know I must apologize for having spoken so long but I have a final word on a different topic -- altogether different. It is with respect to assistance to private schools. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have been in this legislature for 25 years . In the COU' se of those years I have voted millions -- hundreds of millions of dollars to be spent to provide an education for the boys and girls of this province. Although I thought that we had the responsibility to wards every boy and girl, I knew in my heart that some boys and girls would not benefit from these grants. Except on two occasions , and they are far away, I kept my mouth shut. I knew the past quite well, by reading and by conversations with my late father. But t ime is a great healer; situations change.

Now we have had a Royal Commission that has made many recom mendations, some in their interim report that were adopted by this House unanimously. They made another one with respect to providing some assistance to the private schools. The road is open.

The Speech from the Throne mentioned that this would be taken into consideration and that the government would report in due ti me, Since that time I was very pleased to read in the press , because I did not have the privilege to listen on the radio, the statement made by a real statesman, the leader of the government, saying that the government would not shirk its re sponsibility on this question and will bring some recommendation in due time.

I would like to thank him and praise him for this announcement and this statement, I would like to say to my leader that I appreciate the fact that he made a statement, before this last statement of the Leader of the House was made, that he hoped that this matter would be considered on the highest plane, and I thank him; and I know now that the situation being changed I'm quite sure that this party will assume its constitutional responsibility.

I want to thank the Leader of the CCF Party for his statement also on this question, And I hope that neither from his party or this party we would have any discussion that would cause embarrassment to anyone, and I would like to praise and thank the Honourable Member for Rhineland for his statement. All I want to say now is that I pray and urge -- and urge every one of you to analyze

chapter 11 of the Report of the Royal Commission. There are many things in there. These people have studied the problem very closely. We all can learn very much, The recommendation is subject to the fact that the public schools come first and that grants should be given only in cases where it will not harm public schools . I trust each and every one of us will study fully these recommendations , and after we have done so, that we will act along the lines of the best traditions of British fair play and justice. MR, J. M.

FROESE (Rhineland): First of all I would like to congratulate you on your position as Speaker of this House and I would also like to mention that I appreciate the advice and assistance given by you to me in this short term that I have been in this House. This not only applies to the Speaker, but also to the members of both sides of this House, and I fully appre ciate ·that. Now coming to the matter before us, the Liberal amendment, it seems to me as rather vague because it refers to promises made over several years and several elections of which I am not fully acquainted.

Yet at the same time it also seems to be all inclusive. It could take in any matter for that reason and, therefore, I take it that the matter I am going to speak on very briefly is also implied, and that is the matter of reduction of the public debts. I am fully aware that the previous administration made an honest effort in trying to reduce the public debt of this province. Our direct debt that is outstanding at the present time, from the information that I possess and have, is that it is well over the 200 million mark.

Now I feel that when a government goes into debt deeper and deeper they are mortgaging the future Page 186. February 1st, 1960.

(Mr. Froese, conttl.) ••• of our fellow citizens of Manitoba and I think that is not the thing that we should do, because people and the people of our province are going deeper into debt as it is , let alone that the government should go into debt further. That indicates that we as the government in Manitoba a._-re living beyond our means, and I would heartily recommend a pay-as-you-go policy that should be adoptedby this House.

I feel that this government should set an example to our people in the province and confine themselves in the proper way so that they would not be expending monies for which they will, as I already mentioned, mortgage the future of our province.

There should be no need to go further into debt, because if people want additional services they should naturally be prepared to provide the necessary funds that should go with it, especially so when conditions as we know them today, perhaps exclud ing the farmers and the small businessmen, the people generally are earning more than they have in the past, and as our government reports state that conditions are good, so we should live within our means and not add additional capital expenditures to our public debt at this time.

Certainly I would not like to criticize in a way that is not constructive and, as al ready mentioned, I would recommend a pay-as-you-go policy. Further to that I think the answer naturally lies in Social Credit, but this I would have to explain at a later time because I am sure that the Speaker would rule me out of order when speaking to this amendment and going into matters of that kind. So I would just like to explain my position. I feel it reason, important enough, on this matter to vote with Her Royal Majesty's Opposition opposing the motion made by the Memb er from St.

Vital, and seconded by the Member from Rupertsland. MR. GUTTORMSON : Mr. Speaker, before I forget, I first want to thank the First Minister for bringing me into the light of such illustrious company as those suggested for the leadership of the Liberal Party. This is certainly a great honour for the man that should achieve it, and I certainly don't see any way where I am going to be named for such a high post. However, we are in the fortunate position of having so many capable .men in a position to accept this high position, and whoever should be chosen, I certainly will do my utmost to give him all my support.

The First Minister went on to tell us about this split in the Liberal group because of this leadership convention which is expected later in the year. Well if there is a split I cer tainly don't know of it. I have never seen the harmony or spirit better in the party than it is right today. But I wonder if the First Minister. remembers a few short years ago when we did have a split in a political party in Manitoba, when a young man precipitated a leadership convention, and many of his own group said he had stabbed the leader in the back, of that day.

Subsequently, this man has been discreetly moved from active politics. Because the Premier took the liberty to offer suggestions about pqssible leaders, I suggest that I am open to the same privilege, because in the Conservative Party we are going to need a new leader in about three years' time -- I hope he lasts that long. And I would like to suggest the name of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. He obviously is in complete disagreement with the government policies and rightly so. The First Minister criticized the leader of our group for criticizing the Member for St. Vital. I don't remember any criticism.

He had some suggestions to make to him but I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that the remarks made about the Member from St. Vital were certainly nothing like those made by the First Minister after he heard some remarks from St. Vital. The First Minister goes to a great deal of trouble to tell us about the "Roblin Team". Well I'm still waiting to see it.

Whenever members on this side of the House wish to ask ques tions we see a scurry on the desk and notes rushing back and forth to the Minister where the question is directed, and then we find that the question mustn't be answered because it's out of order -- it's government policy. Mr. Speaker, I've never seen freedom curtailed in such a manner as it is today. No questions are allowed; everything is out of order; everything is government policy. I well remember last fall when the blizzard struck Manitoba and literally destroyed millions and millions of dollars worth of crop.

The First Minister left the province on a trip to Australia. If a team had been functioning in the government at that day, some ac- · tion would have been taken when it was needed and not waited upon until such time as the First Minister returned to his office. Talk about farm credit and what they have done for farm credit in Manitoba, Ac cused us of opposing it. This is utter nonsense. Farm credit has not been instituted in February 1st, 1960. Page 187 .

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd.) ••• the manner that the government said it would be and that's what we opposed and not farm cre dit in itself. From one end of the province to the other the government promised that they would have farm cre dit up to a maximum of $25 ,0 00. I chal lenge the government to tell us how many far mers have been able to sec ure loans up to $25 ,0 00, There are over a thousarul. farm ers today waiting to have their land appraised. Many of those farme rs put in their applications last July.

The unfo rtunate part of the plan, as it is now in operation, is the farmer who really needs the loan can't get it. Those that have the loans could have obtained help elsewh ere . And this plan was designed to help those that couldn't get help in other places. What about crop insurance ? The government said crop insurance would be implment ed immediately upon their election to offi ce. There is no hope for crop insurance in Manitoba for two and maybe many more years . Even in the last ses sion the Minister of Agriculture said that we would have a crop insurance last year .

Now we have test areas -- and the unfortunate

part is the Province of Manitoba has accepted an agreement with the Federal Government on such a low perc entage of help from them that it is very unlikely that the crop insurance plan can function properly in this province. Perhaps at some later date the Minister of Agricul ture can explain the remark re made at a re cent meeting in Clandeboye when he said I must confess that the things I used to think should be done when I was a farme r, or farming ac tively, can't be done by the government. MR . HUTTON: Mr . Speaker, the remark suffe red a little bit in the retelling of them. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Maybe it suff ered when the Minister made it too. The other day the Minister of Education went to great lengths to tell us about the wonderful success of the new educational plan. If it is such a success, Mr. Speaker, why is he so alarmed at the cost whenever he speaks to the school trustees ? They've bragged about having implemented the re commendations of the Royal Commission. I suggest to you, Mr .

Speaker , that isn't true, be cause the Royal Commission recommended centralization of high schools; yet on the hustings for political expediency they told the public they could have as many schools as pos sible. And now today when applications are coming in to build schools they're trying to sug gest that they should reduce the number of schools and the number of classroo ms . MR . MCLEAN: On a point of order , Mr. Speaker , no such statement has been made . MR . GUTTORMSON: What statement wasn't made ?

I disagreed with the Honourable Member for Carillon who said that the Minister of Education almost lo!it his job , because it is quite common knowledge around this buil ding, beca use of the mess education was getting into , that he tried despera tely to get into another portfolio during the rece nt shake-up. -- (Interjection: Oh! I have a good pipeline .) Mr. Speaker, the lives of many children in Manitoba are in jeo pardy today beca use of the niggardly action of this gove rnment. Last year this government was asked by the St.

Boniface Hospital to provide money to provide a machine , known as the Image Amplif ier, which is needed very badly during he art operations . Their request for this very valuable and expensive machine has not yet been granted. As a result, heart operations in the st. Boniface Hospital have been sharply curtailed and the lives of many children hang in the balance be cause they can't undergo these operations .

Doctors who perform this very delica te operation are subjected to radiation in great amounts when they perform this operation, and are in danger of losing their own lives unless they curtail the number of operations they perf orm. Already one heart surgeon has had to leave the job beca use he is afraid of his own life . In stead of performing at least one operation a day these doctors cannot perform more than one a week now .

If this machine which is worth $40, 000. b.ad been provided the hospital, there would be literally no children on the waiting list, but the list of children waiting now is rising rapidly and we have every reason to expect that some might lose their life beca use of the de lay. The previous government used to be accused of a lot af things -- fo r not doing this and not doing that, but they never turned down a grant to a hospital when a life was at stake.

Yet, after the First Minister returned from Australia he made an announcement about foreign aid, While there can be no doubt that every meD;J.ber of this House is sympathetic to wards less fav oured people and areas , nevertheless , one must not allow one 's heart to run Page 188, February 1st , 1960.

(Mr. Guttormson , cont' d. ) , • • away with one's head or mind. A most casual consideration of this proposal immediately revealed that its practical application is impossible. In the first place , foreign aid of any kind is a matter of international policy, therefore, it must and does come under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government at Ottawa. Knowing this , one cannot help wondering why the First Ministe r, who knows and understands so well the various duties and responsibilities of the Provincial Government as compared to th ose of the federal one, should make such a proposal. Mr.

Speaker , I say without fear of contradiction that the only possible motivation that applies to the memb er concerned, the Honourable the First Minister, is one of grandiosity. In other words he was - look out Dief, I'm after your job. He knew very well that making ann ouncements such as this would draw national publicity and at the next leadership convention this publicity would be certainly of value . Yet when we read the Throne Speech there was no mention of foreign aid.

We have heard speakers on the other side tell us how wonderfully well their plans and legislation is being received by the public of Manitoba. Last May, in Arthur, Rhineland , and Turtle -Mountain, the Conservative candidate running in those three seats obtained more than 2, 000 votes more than the Liberal candidate . Just a few months later the difference was reduced to 95 , and the significant part of it was the Premier's approach to the press when he was asked for an opinion. He declined to offer any opinion on the night of the election and ask ed that he be consulted the following morning.

I remember only too well , after the general election, when the Premier made himself available to all the news media and the television cameras so he could be photographed and quoted. The other night we saw the Leader of the CCF Party interviewed on television. He told the people of Manitoba there was no doubt about who was the official opposition in this province. I think this statement can be best answered by the Premier's action in his reply on the Throne Speech. He just ignored them . In conclusion -- (Interjection) -O h th ere's some other sections of the Throne Speech.

I'd like to congratulate the mover of this address. He certainly did an excellent job although he is probably eliminated from any hope in the Conservative Party for the rest of his life but, however , he was frank and we give him credit for that. I would also like to congratulate the Member for Rupertsland who did a very effective job. I would also like to welcome the new memb ers to the House. I must say that the member for Cypress is certainly a welcome addition , and no question about it, an attractive one . She brightens up what certainly is a dull other side.

However, maybe with her prese nce in the House things may pick up over on the other side . MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead) : Mr. Speaker, seeing as how I have already spoken on the Throne Speech debate, I do not propose to speak for any great length of time today, I believe I am in order speaking on this amendment . And I would say that I do not propose to deal with the many allegations of broken promi ses; promises once made , subse quently not kept.

I am not saying , of course, that this is not the case but I would like to say that at least in several instances I am rather glad that the Conservative Government has seen fit not to keep some of its promises which it made at the individ ual constituency level . Of course, one can well realize that in the heat of political cam paigning quite often comparatively trivial or specific promises are made for the sake of gath ering votes.

I don't know how it was in the other 56 constituencies but definitely in my own riding some of the promises that were made by the representative of the members opposite oilly had the effect of making a goodly number of the electors laugh and chuckle to themselves. And I was quite happy to see in the few months following the election that one by one these promises were slowly shelved or discreetly igno red, so in that case I'm rather happy to see that some of these promises aren't kept because I do believe that they were definitely not in the public interest anyway.

There is but one rather important promise made on a province -wide basis which I would like to deal with , Mr. Speaker , but before I do I would just like to refer a matter of some concern to the front bench opposite . The matter of flood control has caused consider able discussion in this Chamber for some time , and as members are perhaps well aware, when the diver sion channel is built it will -- at least the proposed tentative route is that it will go on the east side of the Red in the vicinity of Bird' s Hill and force its way north_ and February 1st, 1960. Page 189.

(Mr. Schreyer, cont' d.) ••• then back to the Red River near Lockport. Now if this is the case I think members , some members should be well aware that this will create considerable hardship for those people who live in my consituency immediately east of the Red River. The land there is -- ths plots are small; the land is fertile and intensively cultivated.

The aver age farmer there already has five or six roadways or railways, or combinations thereof, cut ting through his property and if this huge floodway, spillway is to be constructed through that land, making it a total of seven man-made obstructions, then I'm sure that all of us can appreciate what this will do to the worth of that land insofar as agriculture is concerned. Now I say that my constituents there are greatly concerned and very anxious to know just what ths government intends to do as regards this floodway.

Do they intend to follow the tentative route mapped out or have they ever given consideration to altering the route so that it will follow the waste land, or at any rate ths less valuable land somewhat to the east of the route now proposed. And I must say that several representations or requests for information have been made by individuals or groups of individuals living in that area,· and up to now they have received no information that might calm their worst fears and suspicions . Now I say this , not as a matter of criticism, but in the light of trying to point out something of urgency to ths front bench.

Now as I s aid earlier I propose to deal with one rather important promise that was ma de by this administration and which has up to now been not kept, although I'm sure that they will say that they are on their way to keeping it, and that is the matter which the Hon ourable Member for Carillon raised in this Chamber earlier today -- ths matter of crop in surance. Now most of the members in this Cham ber have been here a relatively short time and it will be just as well for me to state briefly ths history of the matter and considerations of crop insurance in this province. Twenty years ago, Mr .

Speaker, a study was made of crop insurance by the Economic Survey Board. The recommendation of that Board, in 1940 , was that a beginning should be made on a crop insurance program. And here is .the exact wording of that recommendation, Mr . Speaker.

I quote: "Crop insurance is both desirable and practicable for Manitoba; beginning with wheat and later on to include the other main cereal crops in the province." Nothing was done about this recommendation and it would appear from scanning the records during the intervening years that nothing at all took place in this House on the subject of crop insurance until 1953 when the honourable member for Morris, then an Independent, moved a resolution on the subject.

Of course, that was back in the days when the honourable member for Morris was still an Independent, obviously before the time that he decided to follow the vision and footsteps of "John". However, we all make mistakes and certaiiily we who are young. Then in 1953 -- oh that 1953 resolution called upon the Manitoba Govern.nient to take the lead in formulating a broad scheme of crop insurance.

The Liberal Minister of Agriculture moved an amendment saying that crop insurance would require the participation of the Government of Canada and that the subject should be consider ed by the next Federal-Provincial Agricultural Conference. This was agreed to by the House but apparently nothing further was done because the next year the honourable mem ber for Morris, persistent as he was, and is , moved the very same resolution on crop insurance in 1954. This time the Liberals moved another amendment, that was on March 5th, and they called for an investigation to be made.

In 1953 they ask for federal participation; in 1954 they ask for fur ther consideration -- investigatipn. This too was agreed to. Then, nine months later on December 1st, 1954, the Campbell Government appointed a Royal Commiss ion on Crop In surance. In 1955 the Commission made its report, but strange, to top all strangeness, it was a Commission without any power to recommend any solutions. It was a Royal Commiss ion with out power to make any recommendations. It must be said, however, that much information re lating to crop insurance was contained in the report, but the most important sentence, Mr.

Speaker, the most important sentence in the whole report reads as follows: "The terms of reference of this Commis sion do not empower the Commi ssion to make recommendations and so none have been made." Well , the Campbell Government certainly played it safe. They didn't want crop insurance so they made sure that they would not be embarrassed into acting by ap pointing a commission without power to make recommendations. · Let us examine some of the information which the investigation did bring to light however. For example, of the briefs submitted to the commission, 24 or' the briefs favoured Page 190.

February 1st, 1960 .

{Mr. Schreyer, cont'd. ) •• croj) insurance; eight gave qualified support; and only five were against it. Two main points were established by those appearing before the commission. No . 1, the majority of farmers were dissati sfied with PF AA; No. 2, they wanted a more comprehen sive plan of protection against crop losses. Any conclusions arrived at by the commission were entirely negative.

The commission reversed the opinion of the Survey Board of 1940 by stating that the 1940 recommendation , quote: "c annot be successfully applied in Manitoba under today's farming conditions." And the commission flatly rejected any idea that the prov'...nce could under take a provincial scheme of crop insurance on its own. So that was that , Mr. Speaker. The Libe rals no doubt felt satisfied they had killed crop insurance for another twenty years, but at the 1956 Session the Honourable Member for Morris again came up with a resolution on crop insurance , and he was still an independent in those days , Mr .

Speaker . They must have been carefree days too. His resolution received the support of all opposition members but was op posed by all of the Liberal Progressives. The vote was 32 to 16 . In 1957 and '58 the CCF group put forward resolutions calling for crop insurance along the lines recommended by the Royal Commission on Agriculture and Rural Life in the Province of Saskatchewan. Liberal amend ments came in asking for furthe r study to be made by the government concerned and these amendments were carried.

If there was one thing that the Liberals could do better than any thing else, that was to move amendments calling for furthe r study. Well during this time the Conservatives kept saying that Manitoba should go it alone if necessary. Their spokesman then was the honourable member for the former constituency of Killarney who , Mr.

Speaker , is none other than yourself, and I do not wish to get you in volved or drag you into political discussion in this present House, but I hope that you will allow me to use one quotation from just one speech that you made on Feb ruary 19th, 1958 , in which the honourable member for Killarney said, and I quote: "The Liberal Government has shown little enthusiasm for crop insurance but when Manitoba gets a Conservative Government things will be diff erent." Well now, Mr. Speak er , we do have the Cons ervatives in offi ce both here and in Otta wa, and what have we got as regards crop insurance ?

We have what the Conserva tives claim to be a plan of crop insurance . · Mr . Speaker, it is hardly a be ginning. The plan is no good beca use, among other things -- among other things it would appear suspiciously as though the plan was entered into so as to get the Fed eral Government off the hook -- and PF AA Under PFAA the Federal Government paid 50% on the dollar; under this so-called scheme of crop insurance the Federal Government will pay only 20% on the dollar. Under PFAA the Fed eral Government paid lOO% of the cost of administration which is, incidentally, Mr.

Speaker, about 1 1/2% or ab out 3% of the total cost of the plan. Under PF AA the .Federal Government paid lOO% of administrative costs; under this so-called insurance plan the Federal Government pays only 50% of administration costs. In other words , under this proposed plan of crop insur ance the Federal Government will pay a total of 21 1/2% of the overall cost. Perhaps the worst feature of all , Mr . Speaker, is that under thi s Conservative scheme of crop insurance the Pro vince is left with the contingent liability which could amount to many millions of dollars. The long and the short of it, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Conservative plan for crop insurance is rather tied together with bale-wire or hay-wire . The Liberals always regarded" crop insurance as something too big and too difficult to handle . If this is a shirking of responsibility one must cer tainly come up with the . consoling fact that at least they never promised it in the same sense that the present administration promised crop insurance.

The Provincial Conservative admini stration and the Federal Conservative administra tion should be conde=ed somewhat for brin ging in a plan which is unworkable and rather feeb le , and one which does not amount to as much fe deral

part icipation as under PF AA. It would seem that it is rather a dodge to escape responsibility . Certainly this Provincial Government does have the responsibili ty of seeing to it that the federal offers are as good as one can possibly be lieve them to be , Now surely this government, this Provincial Government , has fallen down on the job somewhat by acce pting or allowing the Federal Government to seriously make an offer in which they pay only 21 1/2% of the overall cost. This administration has the responsibility of acting as a bar gaining agent in delibera tions with the Federal Government.

This point was well expressed by the Member for Ca rillon. There's no need for me to expand on it but obviously in this crop insurance scheme this admini stration fell down in its role as bar gaining. agent, and for that reason we can not conclude any other way but that this administration is guilty of qroken pro mises as regards crop insurance . Feb ruary 1st, 19 60 . Page 191.

MR. STAN ROBERTS (LaVerendrye): Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak on the amend ment if I may pl ease. Mr. Speaker, it's with a great deal of pleasure that I congratulate you again this seaso n. I do wish you good health and much wisdom as you face your arduous daily task. And I wish also to congratulate, as others have done, the four new members of the House this year. They are obviously four persons ofundeniable ability.

They are unique in that one, as has been pointed out, is a very charming lady ; one is a member of a political party hereto fore unrepresented in the 25th or 26th legislature ; and the third one was elected as a Li beral Progressive in an area formerly called by the Tori es, the solid south. It is with great ple as ure too, Mr. Speaker, that I offer my sincere congratulations to the three new Cabinet Minist ers . I can say in all since rity that I hold all three of these men in very high respect.

In ad dition to their obviou s fine person alitie s I would like to add that one can not help but admire the Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture as an excellent representative of his profes sion; and one can not help but fail to admire the Honourable Mi nister of Muni cipal Affairs for his diligence and his ind ustry; and for the Honourable Mini ster of Mine s and Resources, you can not fail to admire his fine speaking voic e. These thi ngs truck me first and above all of these three men. Further, I must congratulate the Honourable Member for st.

Vital as the mover of thi s ad ch'ess and, of course, the Honourable Member from Rupertsland who took us on a fascinating tour of his const ituency . And with the other members of the House, I hope that we will hear much mora from the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. And my most sincere congratulati ons, Mr.

Speaker, to the Leader of Her Majesty's most Loyal Opposi tion for a.most accurate, timely, fair, effective description of the mis takes as well as the accom plishments of the electi on promises fille d; the election promises partly fill ed; and of the election promises that were not filled by thi s government. I think it must be most obvious to the members of the legislat ure that our leader, the Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition is, fir st of all, the statesman of thi s House; he's secondly, the most capable debater in the House; and thirdly, is the hardest worker in our party.

On Friday, we were treated with the fi rst major address of the ses sion by the Honour able the First Mini ster.

It was intere sting to obser ve at this time that the Honourable the First Mini ster spent the fir st thirty min utes of his talk attem pting to convince the House that the Hono'.lrable Leader of the Opposi tion and those who sat behind him were hypocrite s, and then,· inadvertently I suppose , destroyed his whole case by some personal commen ts of some members across the back benches, and then went on to praise. the Leader of the Opposition, and with a voice that was, I am sure, sincere , said that above all thi s man was honest and sin cere.

Then the Honourable the First Mini ster spoke in some detail of the rumoured rift or split in the Lib eral ranks . I'm sure there must be times when the Honourable the First Min ister just wishe s he had the party unity in hi.s party, that we have in our s. If there is disunity, or a split, or a rift in our party, then I for one am not aware of it. The Honourable the First Min ister tried an unusual sort of argument to .establi sh that the Li berals were split.

He said, in effect, that the front bench says we are going too far too fast, and the backbenchers were conversel y encouraging the government to spend money. But! think the Hono'.lrable the First Mi nister understands the situation perfectly well. Our leader has been rightly and properly talking about the way some new programs have been started by this government without any one doing any homework on the subject before they started the programs, And I think the school divi sion plan is a typical example of this .

But we will, the front bench and the back bench alike , tell you that after preserving democracy that the most sacred duty of any govern ment is the prudent administr ation of the publ ic's money; and we will further go on to say that we have seen few examples of prudent handling of the people 's money in the past 18 months ; and we might also point out to the Honourable the First Mini ster that the prudent handling of the publ ic's financ es sometimes involve s the tightening up on the reins lest spending in a certain field becomes out of hand, and in other circums tances requi res the increased expenditures of mo ney believ ing that such inve stments will in the long run impr ove the financ ial condition of the province and its people.

And my favourite example as you all know, of the latt er, is the money--the inve stments i.n forests in the Department of Mi nes and Natural Reso urces, partic ularly in fire protection and reforestation. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that despite the Hono".lrable the First Min ister's bravado in his speech on Friday, and particularly his remarks in the speech he made at Brokenhead on Page 192. February 1st, 1960.

(Mr. Roberts, cont1d. ) .• December 11th and which the Honourable Member for CarUlon has so accurately described to the House, his promises to the people towards carrying on spend ing in agriculture, mines and natural resources, and in flood control particularly, is just not being done. He is cutting expenditures and, I suggest, unwisely.

I think in the field of agriculture the Honourable the First Minister probably made his most ardent pre-election promises, and this is the field where money invested to help Manito ba's farm population back to prosperity would pay off manyfold in the towns and the cities of our province as well as on the farms. And because of these two reas ons, I am very disa ppoint ed to find that the joint federal-provincial eme rgency aid program to tha farirers is as res trictive as it is.

For instance, anyone who has harvested 51% of his crop can not even apply for it regardless of his need; and anyone who obtains $10 0. 00 or $150. 00, or any amount under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, can not apply for this emergency aid regardless of his need. I'm further disap pointed, as has alre ady been pointed out through a wrangle in proceed ings, Mr. Speaker, that I am disappointed in the Depa r'"wnent of Agriculture-- the Honourable Minister of Agriculture's decision to reduce the Sire .Purchase Policy on pure bred bulls.

If the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture feels that this policy is ineffective then he should cut it out completely and replace it with a better one, but to simply reduce the amount avaH able to farmers by 25%, suoh as has been apparently reported, that it has been done, to me, offers no other indication except a backward step. And s11rely one of t.'le most important roles of the De partment of Agriculture at this time is to ·encourage the production of good quality livestock.

I know of no other policy which serves the purpose of providing or encouraging the use of good star sires and, therefore, better livestock than this policy does. Undoubtedly, the most pressing situation in an unhealthy agricultural community is the egg situation. I'm sure that all the members of this Asse mbly are perfectly aware of the Fed eral Goverarnent1s new deficiency payment policy plan towards the price support of eggs. It would appear now that we have this type of legislation for some years to come.

It is D.pparent also that our geographical location here in Manitoba is adversely affecting the possibility of Manitoba farmers getting their share, shall we say, of the deficiency paym ents that might be paid out on eggs and pork. And taking eggs as ·an example , the plan as it has been set up indi cates that the Federal Government will make a ieficiency payment to the farmers of the dif ference between the weighted average price to the producer of "A" large eggs at • 33� per doz en.

Now, Manitoba eggs, as we all are aware , are holding at a level of anywhere from ten to five cents a dozen, but I'm sure will average out in the neighbourhood of five cents per dozen lower than in Ontario and Quebec. And therefore, we stand to receive in the prairies a much lower initial price for our eggs and the same size of a deficiency payment as the producers i.n Ontario, Quebec or British Columbia will receive.

I would like to encourage this legislature to go on record as being strongly i.n favour of making the deficiency payment p�an for eggs effect ive so that the minimum total price which an egg producer in any region of Canada--a ny pro ducer in Canada will receive the same total price for his eggs, and that is, that I propose that the province- -the country of Canada should be divided into four regions-- geographical regions --and one of these regions--and one of these be the Maritime s; another one the Province of Ontario and Quebec; a third one the Prairie Provinces; and fourthly, British Columbia.

And if in each of these regions the farmers who produce eggs or pork were to receive the same total amount of payment for their product as they do in the other provinces, then I suggest a defic iency payment plan would be a great deal more fair. In the Dep artment of Mines and Natural Reso'.lrces I am sincerely disap pointed to report the almost complete stoppage of work in the forests by our De par tment of Forestry. We are , as you all are aware , in the middle of the mildest winter with the least snow, i.n the memory of those particularly living in the forest area of the LaVerendrye constituency •.

For brushing, for clearing, for cutting roads and fire guards and fire protection, for conservation and for re forestation purposes, weather conditions have never been better. This i.s the winter of a life time for getting work done in the woods .

There is eno,· ;ic snow to eliminate fire hazard, but there is not too much snow causing difficulty moving about in the forest areas, and as a typical· example, I would say the Greate r Winnipeg Water District, which run a rail line through the area east of here all the way to Shoal Lake, are using this perfect weather and this perfect winter and availability of men to clear the whole of their rail line, and as I say, at the present February 1st, 1960. Page 193. "

(Mr. Roberts, cont'd. ) •• time our De partment of Forestry has no men in the field. Many areas have not had men--or at least have laid off their men since October--some just before Christmas. The word in the forest areas now given by the Forestry officials is that there will not be any rehiring till spring when there is more money available and--(interjection)--they get a little tight in places you see. I would like to suggest to the Honourable Minister that we are here missing a bet.

We may not for a long time get another winter like this one and for this kind of work, and let's get these fire guards and these roads built. The equipment and the men are available in the forests now, and for a maximum long term return it must be done now. And this is the kind of year they can get that kind of work done. Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat a request I made last year on the Throne Speech, that consideration be given by this Assembly to uniform time throughout the Province of Mani toba.

The growth of the school division system and the building of new schools in many areas and larger centres has further pointed out the very annoying situation to both urban and rural residents. I refer particularly, of cour se , to the lack of uniformity in tim e during the summer monllis in the Province of Manitoba and I susgest a referendum followed by Provincial Govern ment legislation setting the time by which all Mani.tobans will operate their homes and their businesses and their schools.

Critics of this situation suggest, of course, that this is a way of imposing the will of the majority on a minority; but I think the truth is, and I feel this sin cerely, that the normally pro-standard time people , and these are the people who live in rural areas, are so fed up with the confusion of having both standard and daylight time operating in their munic ipalities and in their commu nities that they would be perfectly willing to accept the result of a referendum regardless whichever way it might be. Mr.

Speaker, there is another subject which I think is perhaps not nearly as important as uniform time , but one which is equally controversial these days, and that is the subject of Sunday sports. It has been rumoured and reported that a bill would be forthcoming, but of course we haven't seen any sign of it. I would like to see a bill presented to this House ending the present confusion with regard to Sunday sports.

I would hope and would encourage the gov ernment that the bill should provide permissive legislation for local governments to allow well and clearly defined sports to operate on Sundays and on specified hours . I did not intend to speak on the subject of health insurance, Mr. Sp•3aker, and therefore I didn't speak on the amendment of the party of the CCF.

However, in passing, I would like to say to my friends here on the left, and particularly of course to the Honourable Leader of the CCF Party, that as he knows, my wife is presently in the Sc andinavian countries, and as he is perfectly aware the Sc andinavian countries are the most highly, shall we say, advanced in the field of social medici ne, and I hope--at least this was one of the terms on which my wife was allowed to make this trip--that she would come back with an unbiased report on the state of the health plan in the Scandinavi.an countries.

It's interesting to--I would just like to make a couple of observations because I have had an interim report by mail, but I'm not ·acting on any inter im report of the trouble that it might get a fellow into; but just in passing, it's interesting to note that the overall health plan of the country of Denmark costs approximately seven times as much as the hospitalization plan if it was taken by itself. That was quite astounding to me. It is interesting to note that the administration of the health plan i.n Denmark costs as much practic ally as the whole of the hospitalization plan if taken by itself.

It is interesting to note, too, that the average wage earner in Denmark pays from 25% to 40% of his total income in taxes to the government, and I would hate to quote--I won't quote them for fear they are wrong, but the perc entage of people who work for the government of Denmark--the percentage of the em ployable people ,-· ·t.lJ.e percentage of the people of the nation who are available for work who work for the government, is so astounding that it frightens you.

And, generally speaking, I would say that from what I can gather the people of Denmark are very happy with their system except they are a little concerned about the cost of it. Mr. Roberts spoke briefly in French. Translation will appear in tomorrow •s. Hansard. I think this is a very serious thing. The telephone problem in the constituency of La Verendrye has cre ated probably the greatest controversy and the largest amount of hard feel ing in the shortest period of time of anything that I can think of could have been done. It was a simple mistake. It was p3rhaps an accident--perhaps it wasn't.

But it hasn't been straighten ed out and so I felt it necessary that this matter should be brought into the House. A new February 1st, 1960. Page 194.

(Mr. Roberts, cont'd. ) •• telephone exchange has been installed in Steinbach and the commun ity is proud of it; and in LaBroquerie and Ste. Anne, automatic exchanges handle the local calls while long distance calls are handled at Steinbach. Now, shortly after the new exchange was opo::med an unfortunate decision has caused a g-.ceat deal of hard feelings, particularly in Ste. Anne and LaBroquerie, of course. The Steinbach exchange employed the chief operator at the former Ste. Anne exchange as a telephone operator. She is bilingual. However, when anyone in Ste.

Anne or LaBroquerie attempted to place a call in French, or to speak to this girl in her own lang!1age, she was forced to advise them that she was not allowed to speak other than English while on duty. The good people of LaBroquerie and Ste. Anne became legitimately irate.

The climax was reached when a family, and I have chased this situation down right to the people involved and can say it without any fear of contradiction, a family which oould speak no language but French, through no fault of their own, could not receive an important long dis tance telephone call while this girl was at the exchange, because no one was allowed to sp eak over that telephone from that exchange to that family in the Freneh language.

Now local groups and Chambers of Commerce protested and finally a ruling from the Minister of Public Utilities came, and the letter stated clearly that it was permissible to speak Frenc!J. or German, if ne cessa ry, at the Steinbach exchange. However, although the principle involved was cleared up to a certain extent, in practice the situation has changed not at all for the only switchboard operator who is bilingual and able to speak both languages was promptly notified that she was being transferred. Several important issues are involved here.

First of all, the right to speak French in our bilingual country; I think that this whole matter was treated in a very un desirable manner. And secondly, a girl, innocent of any misdemeanour other than being bi lingual if that's a misdemeanour, is an innocent victim and it has brought hardship to her be cause she cannot logically be transferred away from her hvme over a thing like this. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry I wasn't here when the--but I would like to ask .a question. .Is the. suggestion that this girl was transferred because she was bilingual? Is that the allegation? MR.

ROBERTS: I am not making allegations. I am mainly pointing out facts. I'm point ing out facts and I have pointed out facts. First of all, that no telephone operator-- (interjecti on)--just wait. Will you listen a minute please ? -that no telephone operator at the exchange at Steinbach was allowed to speak French. Surely no one will deny that. Until your letter came --Mr. Minister, until that point, no telephone operator at the Steinbach exchange was allowed to speak French. Now, surely you won't deny that. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, that is not the policy of the system.

I would like that to be made clear here now. That is not the policy of the system. The fact that it may have been interpreted that way by someone I- MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order ! MR. CARROLL: On a point of privilege, Pm clearing a point. (Interjection) MR. ROBERTS: Mr. SprO!aker, I would appreciate-- I have tried to bring this in as fair ly as I could, as I promised the people of the area that I would do, because the information supplied to me was not supplied to me by my friends. I promised to bring this in as fairly as I could and I have tried to do so in that manner.

I would 'J.ope that the Hono'.lrable the Minister of Ptblic Utilities will make an attempt to clear up the situation--will make an attempt to free this girl of the order to be transferred because she is the only girl who has been told that she will be transferred, and there has been no good reason given to her why sh3 should be trans ferred; and she is the only bilingual girl at the switchboard.

And surely if it was going to be all right to speak bilingual-�two languages at the switchboard, if necessa ry-- I think everybody in tends, if necessa ry, then surely she must be kept because she is the only girl able to do so. MR. SPEAKER: Are yo'.l ready for the question? MR. HUTTON: Mr. Speaker, I. can't say that I'm happy to have to rise and speak again mthis debate and prolong the debate by doing so, but I feel that there have been statements madEi" in this Asse mbly which, in all fairness to my government, that I must reply.

I think they're false impressions created which are having a detrimental effect to the farmers es pecial ly, who we all insist that we are here to try and findsome means of help. Now, the. Honour able Member for--pa rdon me if my memor-y deserts me momentarily--B rokenhead pointed out that under the proposed or the current crop insurance program that the Federal GoverJ?llent February 1st, 1960. Page 195.

(Mr. Hutton , cont1d. ) ' .• was contributing much less than t.'le share that it contribute s--. MR. M. N. HRYHORC ZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): I may be wrong, but if my mem- ory serves me right, the honourable ministe r has spoken on this particular amendment once before, following my address here the other night and I spoke on that amendment. MR. G. MOLGAT (Ste. Ro se): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I think if you will check the index of votes and proceedings in the Hansard you will find that that is correct. He sp::Jke on the Throne Speech debate on--he's on here on page 123 according to the index. MR.

HUTTON: Mr. Speaker I am out of order. I accept the ruling, Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion defeate d. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members . MR.

SPEAKER: The question before the House is the amendment to the Throne Speech which reads as follows: Proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in amend ment th ereto, that the motion be amended by adding at the end thereof the following words; but this House regrets that Your Honour's government has failed to implem ent ma ny of the most important promises i.t made and repeated, during thre e elect ion campaigns , to th

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	20067c336f4544ce7fb1bce08ce5b966546cc8a5

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