VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 1982 NO. 19

June 9, 1982 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 1106 NM - 1 Order, please! I would like to welcome to the galleries today ninety-seven students and their teachers from Grand Falls Academy, in the district of Grand Falls, represented by the hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform hon. members of an order issued on the 21st. of May, pursuant to the Newfoundland Human Rights Code.

The Newfoundland Human Rights Code encourages a settlement of complaints by negotiation. It is felt that this is the most effective method of dealinq with such matters. Unfortunately a settlement is not always possible. On April 5th., 1982, followinq receipt of the recommendation of the Chairman of the NewfoundlanQ Human Rights Cornrnission,I referred a complaint alleging discrimination by the Building Committee of Burgoynes Cove to a three person commission composed of Mr. Abraham Swartz, Chairman; Mrs. Irene McGinn, Commissioner; Mr. Herbert Buckingham, Commissioner.

A commission of enquiry was held at Holiday Inn, Clarenville 1on April 28th. of this year. In, due course a report anj recoRmendations were submitted to me. A copy of the report is being tabled. I should point out that the legislation says that the minister may publish the report on action taken in any way he deems fit,and it appeared to me the best way of publishing it was in tabling it in the House. A copy of the report is being tabled. The commissioners held that the complainants had been discriminated against because of their sex in the job selection process for the position of bookkeeper with 2 3 6 'I

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1106 NM - 2 l<IR. OTTENHEIMER: a community project by the Building Committee of Burgoynes Cove. On May 21st ., 1982 1 I signed an order requiring certain corrective measures to be taken by the Building Committee of that community to the effect, one, that on service of the order the person holding the position of bookkeeper as of April 28th. with the community project of the Building Committee of Burgoynes Cove be given immediate notice of termination and that his employment be terminated at the expiration of one week from service of the order .

Two, that the Building Committee of Burgoynes Cove Hithin five days of service of the order hold a meeting at which all referrals from the Canada Employment Centre for the position of book­ keeper were to be given consideration and appointment of a bookkeeper was to be made . Three, that in making the appointment the Committee shou~d choose a person whose qualifications are adequate and who best met the qualifications required by community and equitable standards . Four, that in making the appointment the Committee should not discriminate against any person because of that 23b i

.! June 9,1982 Tape No. 1107 ah-1 2erson's race, religion, MR.OTTENHEIMER: religious creed, sex, ill~rtial stacus, physical disability, political opinion, colour, national or social origin. Five that within one week of the appointment of the bookkeeper the committee should send a report in writing to me naming the person appointed and the reasons for the selection. I believe that these measures were necessary to carry out the recommendations of the commission. I am pleased to inform hon. members that the order has in fact been complied with. The order will be tabled and distributed to hon. members. MR.

ROBERTS: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: Mr.Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, may I first of all thank the minister for his courtesy and his consideration in supplying me with a copy of the statement in advance. I hope that his action in this as in so many other respects will be emulated by his colleagues in the Cabinet. Now, Sir, I think the minister's sta~t speaks for itself and needs little enough comment.

Obviously the minister has done the right thing to issue this order,just as 1 I venture to suggest based on a review of the commissions's report-and it is a quick review;the report is appended to the material provided to me and I assume in due course to · be provided to the House by the minister. The report is appended. I read it through quickly-but it would certainly seem that the commission heard those 'who had an interest in the matter and considered the types of matter they ought to consider and made what appears to be a very rational and a very proper decision.

I note, and I assume it is of no concern in the legal sense but I will simply point out to the minister 1 that the third member of the commission, Hr. swartz 2 3 b ·:\

June 9,1982 Tape No. 1107 a."l-2 t-In . ltOBJ·:R'!'S : was not able to sit . 1 do not quarrel wiL~ that but I hope this does not flaw the process . I have not looked a~ the act but if the minister assures us that two of the commissioners are vested with the authority of a commission under the ~ct 1thcn that is ~,ough. The important point, 1 think, t-lr. Speaker , is that the Human Rights Act, which has been on the books since 1968 or 1969, this provision essentially and which was originally sponsored in this House by the late ilon . 1¥ .J.

Keougr - indeed most of the reform l<''1islat ion in the labour field in this Province today dates from Bill Keough 's time. It was consolidated a number of years ago in the Labour Standards Act , so­ called - '•ut this act goes back to Bill Keouqh' s time and I suspect, Mr. Speaker, that this is the first time we have seen this kind of action being taken.

I hope it will not be the last because I suspect there are many such instance s throughout Ne•·1founclano • instances such as this which amount to discri.manination and thus are contrary to t.he la1-1 of the land as enacted by this House, even though I venture to say the gentleman on the 5urgoynes Cove committee did 2364

-~ June 9, 1982 Tape llOB EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: not knowingly intend to discriminate. I note that the man they hired, according to the report, Mr. Speaker, was a gentleman who had a heart condition and could not carry on his previous trade as a carpenter. He obviously was physically incapacitated to some extent. The Committee obviously felt that he could carry on as a bookkeeper and there was certainly no finding that he was not qualified to do the bookkeeper's work.

But it is a case where the Committee have erred, apparently, in the process or in the following of what no doubt would be considered to be a very valid principle, mainly giving a job as bookkeeper to a man who could not car:ry on his hitherto accepted trade as a carpenter. The important thing is that ' these ladies in Burgoynes Cove brought forward their complaint, that it was followed, the ruling has been made and the minister has done the right thing to implement it. I hope it will not be the last.

I suspect there are many such instances throughout this Province where the act is not being followed quite as much as it ought to be. It is a very important act, Sir, and one which has a great bearing upon a number of activities of the people in this Province. So let us hope that t~e minister will do what needs to be done to ensure that the people are aware of the act. The educational programme is a must is something which ought to put in train quickly and ought to be carried out much more efficiently than it has been hitherto. Thank you, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): Are there any other Ministerial Statements? 236~

June 8, 1982 Tape 1108 EC - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. LUSH: ll[r. Sneaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The bon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador have been shocked in recent days by the intentions and efforts of the government to downgrade vocational educational services within the Province, as evidenced by the government's decision to lay off eighteen vocational instructors in various vocational schools throughout the Province.

I wonder if the minister can indicate the circumstances surrounding the layoffs of these eighteen instructors? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. MS VE~_(;~~ Yes, Mr. Speaker, the criteria which led tc the notification of the eighteen instructors to lay them off, fourteen permanent people and four temporary, were set a year and a half ago by government and were at that time communicated to the vocational school principals throughout the Province.

This document says that a layoff of a vocational school teacher is warranted if student enrolment in the particular programme co~rse or a class for the past couple of years has been unacceptably low. A layoff is warranted if there already exists a surplus of qualified people seeking employment in that 236R

June 9, l98L Tape No. 1109 MJ - l MS. L. VERG~: particular area or if there are no reasonable prospects for employment of people to be trained in the programme. These criteria warranting layoffs, as I said, were set a year and a half ago and were at that time communicated. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, I think it has to be acknowledqed that steps have been taken to introduce new programmes in vocational schools across the Province to respond to the changing natu re of the job market.

There are going to be introduced,in the Corner Brook and Grand Falls vocational schools this corning September, two year diploma courses in Accounting 1 which are new. There are also going to be introduced in the Corner Brook and Gander vocational schools 1 starting September, Electronics 'l'echnology proqrammes. 1\nd these are exciting beginnings in two and three year technology programmes in vocational schools rather than keeping those types of courses exclusively in St. John's at the colleges here.

Also there is a reasonable prospect that we will be able to introduce to at least two vocational schools in our system, this corning September, courses in Computer Studies. So, while on the one hand there have been some layoffs in courses which cannot be justified because of the changing nature of the job rnarket,there are the addition of other courses which are relevant. And finally, Mr. Speaker, I should point our that a couple of the layoff notices wer e necessitated by cutbacks in CEIC, that is federal government Canada Employment and Immigration Commission funding of basic literacy courses. AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Rqssell) : member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Good answer. Good answer. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, it is indefensible 23t17

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1109 MJ - 2 MR. T . LUSH: for any government to lay off vu~.,uonal instructors at a time of high unemployment, Mr . Speaker, and at a time when we need skilled people in this Province and right throughout Canada . I wonder if the minister could indicate to the House what courses will be cancelled in these vocational schools as a result of these eighteen layoffs, and in what schools? MR . SPEAKER (Ru ssell ): The hon . the ~linister of Education. MS . L . VERGE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, this is fairly detailed information 1-1hich might better have been supplied to the hon. member at the Estimates Committee hearing this morning, but r 1vill go through it quickly . There are six schools affected, in alphabetical order : The Burin Vocational School, where there will be reductions in the number of students in Electrical and Welding courses, 1-1hile those courses 1-;ill be continued for a smaller number of students . In Carbonear 23oM

.... June 9, 1982 Tape 1110 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: reductions in Welding, Business Education as well as academic, basic education upgrading or academic courses related to trades. In Conception Bay South there is a reduction of a position in pre-vocational education and that is basically because the work has been done and there is no need to continue the employment of that person. In Corner Brook there are reductions in the M~llwright programme and Business Education. And in Gander,a reduction in academic courses related to trades.

In Grand Falls,reductions in the Millwright programme, Electrical, Business Education and acedemic. Mr. Speaker, these courses will be continued for lesser numbers of students.

But because of present year and last year's enrollment figures, and because of the nature of today's job market,it cannot be justified continuing the employment of these instructors when instead we need to change our priorities and divert the payment of salaries for positions which arc marL~ ncc.xiL'd, which we are doing through the introduction of the new courses that I mentioned in the two year Accounting diploma course and the Electronics Technologyand hopefully in Computer. Science. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the Mr. Speaker, there is no question that many of the courses that are being offered at the vocational schools throughout the Province are obsolete. They are not in accordance with the industrial 236~

June 9, 1982 Tape 1110 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: demands of today. But, Mr. Speaker, that should be a part of the planning of the Department of Education. And is there no plan in place whereby we can retrain those teachers whose courses are becoming obsolete and train them in courses for which there is an industrial demand today rather than laying them off? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) says, some of our courses in vocational schools are obsolete 1 and that is precisely wh y it is necessary to lay off some instructors.

Instead we are trying ~o add courses which are relevant. There is going to be consultation between the Department of Education and NAPE,the ULion which represents the vocational school instructors,about possibilities for retraining some of the instructors so they will be suitea for other teaching opportunities either in the vocational system or elsewhere in our education system. And a plan was made well ahead of time which led to these decisions.

As I said, the criteria warranting the layoffs were laid out under a .~abinet directive a year and a half ago and were communicated to every vocational school in our system at that time. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier,it is indefensible and inexcusable to be downgrading vocational educational services 23711

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1111 so - l MR. LUSH: in the Province at this particular time of high unemployment and when we need a lot of skilled workers in the Province and in Canada. Can the minister indicate to hon. members whether the department is contemplating any further layoffs in vocational schools in this year? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the criteria for layoffs are laid down in black and white for everyone to SL'L'. Layoffs will be necessary if the job market changes, if student interest and demand changes. That will evolve with the passage of time.

At the same time I think it is clear that there is a responsibility on vocational schools to add new courses which are needed to train people for job openings which are likely to arrive with the development of our resources here in this Province. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Hr. S?eaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the minister again indicates that if there is not a demand in the job market some of these courses will become redundant and the people laid off.

But I ask again, is there some kind of pre­ planning going on in relationship with industry and private enterprise to ascertain what the future demands will be, what future industrial demands will be, so that we can carry on an efficient retraining programme with the instructors ~ho are now in place? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the member for Terra Nova seems to be disappointed that the vocational school system is finally responding to the changing nature of the job market and it is getting its· priorities straight. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, there has been a 2 3 7' ·1

June 9, 1982 Tape No . 1111 so - 2 MS . VERGE: lot of work already done by the Departments of Education and Labour and Manpovler of the provincial government,with some input and co-operation from the federal government through Canada Employment and Immigration ,to project the need for job training in our Provin ce. In the Department of Education a few months ago we added a new position called Supervisor of Training for Resource Development to boost this ongoing effort.

And \·lith the projects that are made and the criteria laid down =or layoffs, the decisions were made for the reduction of n~~bers in certain courses and at the same time for the addition of the new courses that I mentioned ·~ith a qrowing emphasi s on the two and three year technology courses. MR. LUSH: MR . SPEAKER (Russell): member for Terra Nova . ,\lR. LUSH : Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Final supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, I know there is a lot of planning going on when ,in vie\v of the tremendous demand for technical people, skilled ?eople, here the government are laying off eighteen vocational teachers. Mr. Speaker, my question is, is the government contemplating closing any of the vocational schools throughout the Province? MR . SPEAKER: t-15. VERGE: MR . CALLAN : The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, the answe r is no . Mr. Speaker . 23i ?

__._ June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1112 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. member for Bellevue MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. House). MR. NEARY: Do not say anything about hospi t~ls .·rhe Premier says he is going to close them all d01-rn. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want tn wsk the Minister of Health- reading yesterday's annual report wh.ict1 was tabled by the Minister of Public Works (Mr.

Young),I notice that last year $42,000 was spent on the Markland Cottage Hospital in renovations, $42,000 spent in the year 1980/81- I want to ask the Minister of Health how does he rationalize spending that much money as recently as last year with the statement that he made yesterday, in yesterday's press release,~hat the Markland Cottage Hospital is an obsolete hospital structure~ Now of course I do not even know, and perhaps the minister can explain,how much money was spent in a co~ple of years previous to last year, but last year alone $42,000 was spent and it is not for- it says renovations, So would the minister explain the discrepancy between his statement yesterday and the money that the government has been spending in recent years?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am surprised there was not perhaps more money than that spent on Markland last year.

The fact of the matter is the Fire Harshall has been going around inspecting all of the hospital facilities. l•Je kno,., a lot of the old hospitals, the cottage hospitals in the Pro~ince, are wooden structures, and fire safety codes have changed, and we have a special vote in the department, every year it shows up in the Department of Health, it shows up for these kind of repairs to keep up with the Fire Harshall's recommendation and code. 1\nd, yon know, we did it in Burin. For instance, we just finished a renovation to that kind of thing in Burin, ... fire safety, 237:1

.1unc '), 1982 Tape No. 1112 NM - 2 ~m. IJOUSE: Eire walls, even thouqh i ... has been talked atout when the new hospital goes up that one will be phased out completely. So it is in keepinq with safety and that is the reason why we did it and we 1-1ill do it in any place tc ensure that there is going to be no hazard in these buildinqs that ,.,e have to use. SOMF; liON. !-1EMBERS : Hear, hear! l'lR . <..:ALLI\N : Mr . Speaker, a supplementary. ~1R. SPEAKER (Russell) A supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue . 11\R . CALL&\l : t>1r.

Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Health, could he explain \'Jhy he will not b"e attending the public meeting at Whibourne tonight regardinq the future of the ~larkland Cottage Hospital? Is it because the minister has a prior commitmen t or ~1hat other reason does he have? !'IR . SPEAKER : The hon . Minister of Health. !~R. I lOUSE : Mr . Speaker, I did have a message from the people in Whitbourne, I presume it is from the committee, cJskinq me if I .,.,•ould attend the rally or public meeting that they ;1re havi nq l<1n i<1ht.

I replied that ! would not be attendinq that mcetinct but I would be 1-1illinq to sit down with the committee- and discuss all the de~ails . ~·fR . YOUNG: Hear, hear~ A good an slier. ~lR. CALL.bu\l : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR . SPEAKER : A final supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue . NR . CALLAN : Mr. Speaker, let me ask the mini ste r, 2.., . . ) I "

June 9, 1982 Tape 1113 EC - l MR. CALLAN: and perhaps the minister can confirm or deny,it seems to me and perhaps seems to many people out in that general area that the fate of the Markland hospitRl, you know, is doomed now. The hospital will definitely go and,judging from what the minister said yesterday, there is no turning back. Let me ask the minister then, is this part of government's plan, long-term strategy? Can we assume that once the hospitals, are completed in Clarenville and on the Burin Peninsula,that the Come-by-Chance hospital will go and then the BUJ·in u.nu St. Lawrence etc. MR.

HODDER: What about Botwood? MR ,___CALL~~:_ Would the minister confirm or deny that it is the intention of this administration to close down all ten cottage hospitals in this Province, similar to what is happening with Markland? _MR. SP:;:AKE;R (Russell_): The bon. the Minister of Health. MR. NEARY: Close them all down -- - - ... MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, it is no news to anybody. We have to review all the facilities we have in the Province. We are reviewing them, as I say, in Central Newfoundland now,and this was mentioned in the release, I think, yesterday.

The fact of the matter is we are looking at all facilities to see what best use they can be put to. Now, we were looking at the cottage hospital in Whitbourne for some time and I do believe that where you have access to more than 50 per cent of the hospital beds in the Province forty minutes drive away, there is no rational reason in the world to keep that particular facility open. I do not believe it can be justified and there is no other use it can be put to. What we are looking at is all the hospitals in the 2.,- . J / ~I

June 9, 198 2 Tape lll3 EC - 2 MH . I lOUSE : Province and saying, you know , arc they functional? What is the best possible use they can be put to? And this is an ongoing process . HR . \•/1\RREN : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the member for 'l'ornt_pl ~1ount;1ins . HR . t~ARREN : Mr . Spea~er, my question is for the Mini3ter of Transportation . For some time now there has been some discussio n between the minister and hi s fcdcr~l coun~crpart (Mr . Jean-Luc Pepin) concerning the airstrip programme for co as tal Lab rador .

Approximately two and one -half \veeks ago , I <lsked the Premier \vhat was the status and unfo rtunately he did not know too much about:. it . I ;3ro just wondering could the Minister of 'I'ransportation enlighten us as to what is the status Dt the present time on the airstrips along the co ast of f,abrador , in particular , Postville? ~IR . SPE/\KER : The hon . the Minister of Transportation . ~m. DAI~E : Hr . Speaker , I would suggest to the hon . ~entleman that not only on this topic , but on any other topic that is brought up in this House, the Premier knows much more than the hon . gentleman .

SONE HON . !·~...SERS : Hear, hear! 2,., ~ :Jih

June 9,1982 Tape No. 1114 ah-1 MR.DAWE: On January 30th the Premier und I,in a much disputed signing of a transportation package for the Province,between this Province and the federal government, we signed a letter of intent on a Labrador airstrip programme,and this letter of intent outlined basically the principles that would be followed in the Province ancl the federal government working together in providing an aurstrip programme for the residents of Coastal Labrador. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, the Province wanted to ensure - unlike some of the support from the federal MP representing the area- wanted to ensure that not only would the u.ir trcmsportu.tion of the residents of cou.stal J.u.l.Jrador h<~ acknowlcc1qcd, but also the fact that we wanted to ensure that the marine coastal service would be adequate for the years to com~. And this, Mr. Speaker, we were able to do by insertinq clauses in this letter of intent. On April 13th of this year I forwarded to Mr.

Pepin a draft agreement that the Province was prepared to sign askincr him to sicJn this agreement so that we could continue with the programme that had been identified in the letter of intent, that is,the construction this Summer of three additional air­ strips in Coastal Labrador, namely, Postville, Rigolet and Port Hope Simpson. Some time after that, about a month after that 1 I received a telex from Mr. Pepin indicating that there was something in the agreement that he found to be significantly different than the letter of intent.

I have looked through the agreement and T cannot find where that significant difference is,and I telexed Mr. Pepin back indicating to him that if in his opinion 2 3 ~~ 7

June 9,1982 Tape No . 1114 ah-2 ~!~ : !)_!\ w 1,:_:_ and in th e opinion of his officials there was a differe nce,then that could be worked out . I found it sort of odd that he had waited ~''llh'l~h.tl t'V<'l .t tnnnt-h Ln 'PSfl(llld <ln<l nskcd him, in the interest of exp edie ncy and get ting on with the work that had been planned and since the design work had alr eady been done or no stv ille, that we go ahead and construct the airstrip in Postville si mil ar to four oth er airstrip s that had been constructed in Coastal l.ulH·ildor . llp to this point in time , Mr . Spcc:~kcr, there ha s not been a response .

I understand that the design and the money is availa ble for Po stv ille and we sh ould go ahead to/ith th at at a moment 's notice,t.,ith the tender calls , and the Provinc e is willin g and abl e to do that . l\s it relates to the ot her tt.,o airstrips that were proposed for this pre sent summer, we undcrslnnd from Transport Canad<J. 's air <J.dinin istrati on office in Moncton 23 irl

June 9, 1982 Tape 1115 PK - l MR . DAWE: that the design wo~k , the necessary design work is not yet completed on those two airstrips , and it is very doubtful if they can get it prepared in time for this construction season. It seems, Mr . Speaker, that again one branch of the federal government does not know what the other one is doing . SOME HON . ~1EMBERS : 1-1R. SPEAKER· (Russell) : MR . ~'lARREN : Hear, hear! The hon . member for Torngat ~1oun ta i. ns . ttr . Speaker , a supplementary to the minister .

With all thut ramblin q1 cu.n 1 q:tt lw•· from llh' minister tha·t \o~hen he wrote back to the Federal Minister, .Jean-Luc .Pepin , on }\nriJ 1.3 that in his response to the letter of intent that h,e did put in some stipulations? We understand that it is 100 per cent Financed '"rom the federal government . Nere there ~th er stipulations put in t~~ minister 's letter that he wrote to the federal ~1inister on April 13? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: a question out of that. SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. DA.WE: The bon . Minister of Transportation. Let me see if I can try an d decipher Hear , hear! The letter of intent, Mr .

Speaker , which has been made public outlined a number of facto rs involved in the Coastal Labrador airstrip programme -.thich AN RON . MEMBER: ~R . DAWE: Good \o7ork. - essentially , yes,the federal government is to pay 106 per cent of the capital eost of building the airstrips . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! 1<1R . Dl\WE: Part of that agreement also calls, Mr . Speaker, perhaps the most onerous part o f that whole programme is for the Province to maintain and operate those airstrips, pay the necessary staff and look after 2 3 i :-1

,June 9, 1982 Tape illS PK - 2 MR. OAWE : them 100 per cent from now for all time . hnd

whereas I suppose the capital cost in the eyes of the federal government initially was to be garnered from not supplying new coastal boats for Labrador , they now find themselves, through hard bargaining on behalf of this government, finding themselves in a position where it is going to be very difficult for them to trade off, if you will, the coastaJ . boat programme for an airstrip programme . So we have them in a bit of a bind, Mr . Speaker, and I would suggest that this is the reason they are starting to squirm and back off on their agreement . SOME HON . MEHBERS: HR .

SPEAKER (Russell): i\IL Nl'\1!' '. ~R_ ._5-lARRF:N : Oh, oh! ·rhe hon . Leader of the Opposition . Mr. !iPc.'.'lkt'f'" .., Follow your Premier! MR . DA~'1I: : You want us to sit there and say nothing, I suppose . MR. _!!_EARY: Mr . Speaker , it looks as if the cottage hospital programme in Newfoundland, it looks like the days for that proqramme are numbered . The hon . gentleman made some very interesting comments there when he was an swering my colleague.the member for Bellevue (Mr . Callan) . The hon . ~entleman mentioned that a study was being done on the Central Newfoundland area .

Would the hon . gentleman care to tell the House what particular aspect of the medical facilities in ccntrul Newfoundland he is lookinq at? For instance, is the hon . qc-nllC'mun now - clocs he h<1vc th<' 13otwood Jlospital hirrh on his list to get the axe? Is that the next one to go? MR. SPEAKER: The bon . Hinister of Health . MR . HOUSE : Mr . Speaker, we are not 1.ooking at any particular hospital to give an axe to . That is not our policy . Our "'0 U c•: i:-: tC' trr to 23R!l

June 9, 1982, 'l'.lpe 1116, l'.J.ge 1 -- oJPl> MR. HOUSE: operate a health system and try to m.J.ke that as efficient as possible . MR. YOUNG: Hear, hear! MR. HOUSE: The fact of the matter is \ve are looking at••the Central Newfoundland hospital system now, the system totally as it pertains from Springdale to Fogo Island down to Brookfield, and it is in relationship to our five year plan and our relationship to an announced construction to go .J.hc<~d,::;ay, for instance, <>n the c,·,lnd 1-'.llls l!o;;pit.ll . So it is done in that particular light .

One of the things we have been looking at for some time is to what best use all our hospital beds can be put. The ract of the matter is, with the advances in modern medicine, changes do come about, and we are looking at it in that light. For you to ask me if I am going to give this one the axe or that one the axe, I think nobody can say that. That is not our purpose . Our purpose is to utilize our buildihgs to the best advantage. MR. NEARY: MR . SPEAKER(Russell) : ,• .. the Le~der of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: A supplementary, Mr.Spcakcr.

A supplementary, the hon. wel i, iet me put the question to the horl . gentleman another way . If he does not have the courage to come out and tell the people what the plans are concerning hospitals in their area, would the hon. gentleman ca re to tell Lhe House .:md the people of Central Newfoundland , especially the people in Botwood , that their hospital 1vill not be closed:: tvould 23ul

June 9, 1982 , Tape 1116, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman undertake to give that commitment to the House? ~R . HODDER : A good question . MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : The hon . the Minister of Health . MR.HOUSE : Mr. Speaker, there is no intention of closing any hospitals . That is not the purpose of the study . The purpose of the study is to see all hospitals in relation to the needs of health care delivery in the Province . MR . NEARY : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . HR. SPEAKER : A supplementary , the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY : That is a very vague and general answer which has no meaning . That answer does not have any meaning. I asked the hon. gentleman a point -blank question about the Botwood hospital. N0\'1 let me ask bim about the hospital in Come By Chance . Can the hon. gentleman make a commitment to the House that the hospital in Come By Chance will not get the axe? MR . BAIRD : question. l'tR . NEARY: question . MR . SPE.l\I<ER : Health . That is a hypothetical It is not a hypothetical The hon . the Minister of MR . HOUSE : Mr . Speaker, I am not giving anybody any information that I do not have .

We are not talking about closing any hospitals now, we ~re reasse ssing our hospital beds in the Province . This is a continuou s process, and I think as a Department of Health, and as 23 d/

June 9, 1982, Tape 1116, Page 3 -- apb MR . HOUSE : a ~JO V C Jmmcn l , we huvc that obligation to reassess and utilize all th e buildings we have to the best advantage. MR. NEARY : A supplementary , Mr . Spe aker . MR . SPEAKER(Russell): A supplementary, the hon. th e Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the questi on I am putting to the hon . gentleman- he seems somehow or other to be avoiding the question . A simple yes or no answer , that is all I want.

Can the hon . gentleman assure this House and the people of this Province, make a commitment here in the House , that no further hospitals, no more hospitals will be closed~ \vell, could the hon. gentleman make that commitment? MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the t-Unister of Health. MR . BOUSE: Mr . Speak er, I am mak ing no such commitment . I cannot make that kind of commitment because, as I said, there is a continual reassessing 23 i.l

June 9, 1982 Tape No . llD HJ - 1 MR . W . HOUSE : and it \vould be irresponsible for .any tnini::lt'l In ::l.tlld IIJ> "''I "C' oliHI s.\y nothinq wi II llnppen, nothint) '"i lJ be c I t)'-'f!<L HR. NEARY: Would you resign if they were? MR . HOUSE: I am not going to make that commitment . What I am saying, Mr . Speaker, is that the Department of Health and this government will continua .lly be asses sing and reassessing our health care system and use the system that we have to the best advantage . ~1R . S. NEARY: A supplementary , Mr . Speaker.

MR_:_ .~f>E7\gR (Russell) : 7\ final supplementary , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR . Nf':J\RY : .. -. . ~ ----~ Could the hon . qcntleman explain to the !louse what quideli nes are beinq used in this study that he keeps referrinq to? 7\nd '"hat hospitals now in Central Ne\"foundland is the hon . ge ntleman looki ng at? Is he looking at th e medical facilities in Central Newfoundland vis-a-vis the Botwood Hospital? SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh , oh! MR . NEARY : Is the study to determine ,.,hether or not hospital beds cnn be eliminated or hospitals can be shut down? 7\s the Minister of Education (MS . L .

Verge) says so often , 'Is that the criteria the hon . gentleman is using? ' MR. SPEJ\KP.R : The hon . the Minister of Health . --·-- ----- --- MR. HOUSE : That is right , Mr . Speaker , \ve '"ill not be closing the one in Port aux Basque . HR . NEARY : No ,that is right . You wou ld not ,l.ltc' . SOMI:: liON. MI::MI3ERS : Oh, oh! MR . HOUSE : Mr . Speaker, the hon . gentleman is trying to put words in my mouth . He is not going to succeed . 2 .... ' ) IJ r.

June'9, 1982 Tape No. 1117 M,l - 2 MR. \\1. HOUSE: Newfoundland was. I told him what the study in Centrilt It was all the system right from Brookfield through to Springdale looking at the total bed situaLion wo have there nd how best we can deliver the health care syste~s; And, you know, there is a lot of programmes involved in health care delivery. There is senior citizens, there is a kind of programme that w6 talked nbout in Old Perlican, the muximization units For clovC'l()p!llont nf l"c'l .11 d,•d children and so. So it is being assessed in that light.

It is not being assessed in any light of what we can close down or what we cannot. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman's colleague, the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. J. Reid), made a statement there about a week and a half ago that Old Perlican would not lose any beds. That was ' a commitment, publically. I saw the hon. gentleman on television. I saw his own physi'lue, his own words.

He told the poeple of Trinity-Bay de Vr. nlc, presume he was repeating what the han. qontJeman hucl told 1\im, that there would be no loss of beds in the Old Perlican Hospital. Now would the han. gentleman indicate if the member for Trinity­ Bay de Verde has reprimanded the hon. gentleman for now reducing the number of beds in Old Perlican Hospital,or does the hon. gentleman intend t6 pass in his resignation for deceiving the people the way he did? MR. SPEJ\KEH: MR. HOUSE: 'J'ho hon. the Ministc'l- ol- ll,•.illh. Mr.

Speaker, the statement made by the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde was very clear; it WilS Uwn•, it was on, it was shown on television. But I think what was not shown was what he stated before. 23iJ~~l

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1118 SD ....; l MR. !lOUSE: He is with us, in total agreement with the plans we have for the Old Perlican Hospital. 'I'IH' I ·•cl: or tlw mal:ter is the number of beds t.hut arc goinq to be retained as acute care beds in the Old Perlican Hospital is about the same number as has been used there for the Jast number of years. Old Perlican Hospital has been like a lot of other facilities, has been u~der-uti~ized, and we could not justify keeping it open for one-third of the beds that were used,although there were 800 to 900 people admitted to that hospital last year. MR.

NEARY: MR. !lOUSE: Stand up for your constituents, boy. Now it is being used 1 or going to be used,for another purpose in conjunction with the ten or lwelve bed in-patient r.~r~ that we are going to retain. So tht~ member is onside, because what we have done now is we arc going to keep the service that was there plus the fact that we are taking care of another problem that the Social Services Department had. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Time for Question Period has expired . ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER : DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table answers to questions Number 71 and 72 asked on May 14th by the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. DlNN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEJ\KER: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr. Speaker, in answer to a question raised by the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), the cost of renovations to the minister's offices in the fiscal years 1979, 1980 and 198~, none. But in that period of time, Mr. Speaker, my office did move from the Gorman Butler Building 23GR

June 9, 1982 Tape No . 1118 SD - 2 MR . DINN : to the Be othuck Building . In that move the only thing we did not move from the Gorman But ler Building to the Beothucl< Buildi ng '"as the carpet, I do no t think '"e were allowed to do that,but the furniture is the same, the pictures on th e wall are the same nnd so 0n. ~o there were no renovati ons to offices . MR . NEARY: Do you have a coloured pi ctu re of the Premier on the wall? tiR . SIMMS : certainly, why not . MR. DINN : Absolutely!! have two . MR . NEARY : How many times a day do you kiss the hon. Pr emie r's picture? MR .

DINN: That is not necessary, Mr . Speaker . In answer to the hon. member £or LaPoile (Mr . Neary), that is not a necessary part of being in this government,to kiss the hon . member's picture ,unlike"the government that th e hon . member served in . SOME RON. MEM BERS : MR . SPEAKER {Russell) : MR . SPEAKER : Hear , hear. Order, please ! ORDERS OF THE DAY It being Private Me mbers· DDy, we shall continue with Motion No . 6. The debate ~as ad jo urn ed last day by the hon . Minister of Finance { Dr . Co llins ). The hon . Minister of Financ e. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear , hear! 23u/

,June g, 1982 Tape No. 1119 NM - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the Brivate Member's motion relates to negotiations with the federal government over the offshore issue and the resolution part asks this hon. House to supporl the position of Newfoundland in its willin~ncss to re- open these negotiations. Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to support that motion, and I would like to make a point straight off that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has absolutely no problem, none whatsoever, in reaching agreements with the federal government. We can do it. We have done it.

I would just like to recall to hon. members' minds a letter that was written to the hon: the Premier by the Prime Minister of Canada on September 14th., 1979, when the Prime Minister of Canada stated in part: "In Ottawa on September 5th., we talked about the question of offshore mineral resources. We examined the question of certain principles beinq fundamental to the resolution of the offshore resource issue as you had suggested in your letter. I am happy to confirm the acceptance of the four principles which a.::-e set out as an annex to this letter." And in the annex to the letter, Mr.

Speaker, the first principle is, '"J'he Province of Newfoundland should own the resource.

Such ownership should be to the extent possible of the same nature as if these resources were located within the boundaries of the Province." And it goes on further, and the fourth point, "The above principles will be further confirmed and implemented by the signinq of an aqreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and by appropriate legislative ;\ction etncl constitutional chanqe." That was a letter, and the annex was written by the Prime Minister of this Country to the Premier of this Province- Prime Minister Clark. 23iJil

June 9,1982 Tape No . lll9 NM - 2 DR . J . COLLINS: So, Mr . Speaker , \~C have ahsollltcly no diffi~ulty and proble~ in reaching agreements wie1 the federal govern~ent . What we do have a prob lem Hith , what we have a great problem with is reaching an agreement with the Trudeau Administration . It is not tvith the federal government, it is Iilith the Trudeau Administration that our problem arises . Mr . Speaker, I \vould like Lo m:1kc sure that the re is an appreciation of what is qoi nq on in thi~ negotiat ing process that \"e are trying to set up bet\oJeen t:hl: · governme .nt o f this Province and the Trudeau Administration. The.re has been some 2 3 iJ q

.June 9,1982 DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 1120 ah-1 indication that this is looked upon as a squabble, that this is looked on as bickering, as though it was not only ,shall we say, a minor thing rather than an absolutely fundamentally important thing, but also that implies that there is equal blame on both sides. Mr. Speaker, I want to do my best to try to put the blame w~ere the blame should be and to show the instances where there has been federal dissembling, less than forthriqhtness- on this Hhole issue. Mr.

Speaker, let me just remind hon. members of the statement made by the Prime Minister of Canada , the Prime Minister of Canada after Mr. Clark, that is Prime Minister Trudeau, on May Sth,I believe it was , 198l,when he spoke to a rally over at the university and he said at that point , "We consistently maintain that ownership is not the important issue and that reaching a negotiated statement on shared management is a vitally important issue. Either it will be negotiation or it will be a court decision." Now, either/or, not both, not something going on concurrently, either negotiation or court action.

"I am offering the choice to negotiate, not orFcrinq the choice of court action. It is either ncqotiation or court action,and I am offering the chance to negotiate, not court action." Now I am quoting the words that were spoken by the Prime Minister himself. So, Mr. Speaker, I think that this is not a squabble. That indicates that we are not squabbling when we say, 'Stick to what you said. You indicated we wanted to negotiate, not · get into court action.' That is not a squabble. We are merely saying ,'Stick to what you indicated.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, to go further with that.I would like to just inform the hon.members of certain communications, certain direct communications 23C1f1

June 9,1982 Tape No. 1120 ah-2 DR. COLLINS' that took place between the present Premier of this Province and Prim~ Minister Trudeau. 2 3 ~j ·1

June 9, 1982, Tape 1121, Page 1 -- apb OR.

COLLINS: On the 19th. of May, in order to get this negotiating process on the go, the Premier telexed the Prime Minister of Canada and in part said as follows: "In light of your expressed willingness to enter negotiations I would assume that your position with respect to the SIU case" - and I will go into tha STU rnsc a little further along, but I am sure that hon. members and most other people in the Province know what the SIU case is all about by this time - "now before the federal court will be altered to involve only the labour relations issue." Now, there was a reply to that.

The reply took over two months in coming, but there was a reply. There was a reply on the 27th. of July, two months and about six days after the hon. the Premier sent off that telex to get clarification on the federal position, But there was a reply, thank goodness! Minister said as follows: Now, in part the Prime "Our divergence of views on ownership has introduced an element of uncertainty" . Now, our divergence of views - it indicates the divergence of views is the issue. "The ownership issue cannot remain unresolved much longer".

So the Prime Minister indicates he wants to resolve the ownership iss·.1e, exactly what we want to do. "This leaves the Federal Government with no alternative but to see that this matter is resolved by one means or another". Not by a particular approach, 1'by one means or another through the legal process'~ Not the judicial process, through the legal process. We in this House are engaged, for instance, in a legal process, we are in the process o= creating laws. The Constitution is the legal process. The Constitution is the great law. 2 3 ~

i) June 9, 1982, Tape 1121, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: the great law. The constitution is So if you put something in the Constitution you are dealing with the legal proce ss . Now the Prime Minister went on and he said: "However, more important is the fact that the jurisdiction issue should not be allowed to obscure the requirement 2 3 J ·\

,June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1122 SD - l DR. COLLINS: to find a solution which best meets the needs of the people of Newfoundland and all Canadians . 'rhe overriding thing should be a mear..s of arriving at a solution which mee'::s both needs.'' The overriding thing is not to get into court, the overriding thing is to reach an agreement. "The federal government is most anxious to renew negotiations with provincial authorities with a view to resolving the p:cesent impasse." Now, Mr.

Speaker, who would take nny rcndincr from that other than that the federal government feels that the ownership issue should be resolved, it should be resolved through the legal process in which we are all involved. But the overriding thing is we reach an agreement,we should not allow the court issue or a reference to the court to obscure, to interfere with or otherwise obstruct the negotiations and the arriving at a good solution. Now, Mr. Speaker, there was a reply to the Prine Minister by our Premier,not in two months , two and a half months time but on the 6th of August,approximate~y ten day later.

And the Prem~er said 'l believe th0. discussions would have a greater chance of success if you and I were to hold a prior meeting concerning tlw Li-.J.Ill<'Wol·k within which our respective officials will operate'. Is that a co-operative approach? Is that a person who wants to fight, who wants to squabble, who wants to bicker? This is an offer to sit down, to set up the framework so that the officials who will have to carry the ball will be able to work efficiently and expeditiously. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is the response to that very reasonable approach?

There was a response, a fairly hurried response, on the 28th of August; about three weeks later 1and from the Prime Minister of Canada to the Premier of this Province. And the response in part was, 'I remain convinced that officials should prepare the ground 2 3 j ,,

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1122 so - 2 DR. COLLINS: prior to ministerial consideration'. So there is a .flat turndown , an absolutely flat turndo\· m . lvho is being the co- operative one? Who is putting fon~ard his best effort:-; to get things going? Is it the Premi .er? I s it the Prime Minist er? I think that if we are talkinq about squabbling , if \.Je are talking about obstruction, we should remember the record and see what took place . Now, Mr.

Speaker, I \.,rould also remind bon . members , if they need reminding , that that lvilS not the only indication that was less than forthri ght enthusiasm and co-operation to have this negotiating process . I remind hon . members that the federal government put a deadline , the 28th o.f February, 1982, there was to be a deadline. It did not matter whether things were progressing slo\.,rly ·or quickly, there was to be a deadline and at that point in time it 1...as go ing to be a cut off anyway . Is that a co- operative, is that a useful approach to settlin g this complex issue? Now, Mr .

Speaker, I 1,rould like to jus t mention a few other instances where the federal government , not the provincial government, wher e the federal government has been less than helpful in this negotiating process. 2 3 ~i .. ,

June 9, 1982 Tape 1123 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: I mentioned the SIU case. ~nd I would remind hon. members again that the SIU case arose out of a labour dispute. It had nothing directly to do with the jurisdictional issue whatever. It had to do with a labour dispute that was being settled by various courts, and finally ended up in a federal court. And at "this point what happened 1 Mr. Speaker? What happened was that the federal government decided to intervene so as to assert its ownership claims, it was tacking its ownership claims on to what was a labour dispute. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

COLLINS : Now when the negotiating process got underway,so as to keep to the understanding on both side~ to keep to a co-operative approach, the Government of Newfoundland called upon the co~rts, made an application to the courts to adjourn the case so that it would not come up, as it was destined to do,during the negotiating process and then this whole ownership thing come out and upset the negotiating process.

The Newfoundland Government called upon the federal government to join them in that action,which would seem logical, and if the federal government was to be co-operative and helpful within that negotiating framework, surely it should acceded to the Newfoundland request. ~ total federal refusal to do so. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: They were going to permit, they were going to insert the question , in the judicial system they were qoing to insert the question of ownership in the middle of the negotiating process. Now, Mr.

Speaker, who is fooling wham when they say that someone is trying to upset the negotiating process? Now, Mr. Speaker, was that all that came out of the issue there? By no means. A short time before this 1 or around 238R

June 9, 1982 Tape 1123 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: the same time, I believe it was a short time before this Mr. LaLonde's office sent out calls for the sending in of proposals for permits on the offshore. I think it was for 4.7 million acres, the vast, vast majority of which was within 23S7

.June 'J, I 'l82 DR. J. COLLINS: the disputed area. Tape No. 1124 MJ - 1 the Newfoundland offshore area, In the midst of the negotiating process the question that was being negotiated and at issue was to be taken over by the federal government on the basis of calling for permits. Mr.

Speaker, on the 31st of August that year, the Premier telexed 1:11<' l'r·illli' Minis~<'r· .l<Jilin on t-hjs issur und lw s,lid, 'We musl .insist that actions now underway by your government, to issue permits unilaterally on the disputed lands be deferred'- be deferred- 'while such negotiations are being held.' Again, there was a response about two weeks later and the response was, ' Mr. LaLonde has announced a two month extention to November lOth of the deadline for his call for proposals.' Was there an agreement to adjourn, to defer this call for proposals ,mtil after the negotiating process was over? No, Mr.

Speaker. Because the deadline that the rcdC'r.Jl 9ovcr-nment hud unilaterally - we never accepted it - that they had unilaterally put on the negotiation process was the 28th or Pcbruary and it was just a deferment until the lOth of Novernbor. l\qain, who was being the co-operative one here? Who was t1·yinq tl) have the negotiation process go forward steadily, smoothly, steadfastly? I think that I need hardly to ask the question? Mr. Speaker, what did then occur? What occurred was that the Newfoundland Government put the question to our own Court of Appeal.

When it saw that what the r<·cl<'r,ll <JOVC~r·nmcnt W<lS doi.ng was not clctinq- and I do not have any hesitation in saying this - was not acting in good faith, it was not continuing under the terms that were quite readily understood by any reasonable person, that they were going ahead with issuing permits, that they were going ahead with promoting a judicial decision on the offshore question, the Newfoundland Government had no :::boice but to put the whole question into its own Court of Appeal. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us be very 23:HI

June 9, 1982 Tape No . 1124 MJ - 2 OR. J. COLLINS : clear on this : I f a quc.•s tion ( JOC S to the Supreme cour t of Canada, there is no appeal fro m th a t. That is the end of the line . It is over and done \vith o nce the Supreme Court of Canada comes do,vn. You have just o ne chan ce once you get into the Supreme Cou r t of cana d a . lt i s t h ere fore absolutely incredibly import.:mt th<~t: J f<tir hcarln q b~ •l i v v 11 to the side puttin 9 in the question . To have any qL1estl on a bo1il a fair hearin<" \'/hen you are at the final decision makin f! \v itho ul any "hope of any further appeal , to have any questi o n t"l i" ,, f: ti .r hearing there would be outlandish . 23 ~~

June 9, 1982 Tape 1125 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: I submit that and I suggest that no reasonable person would question that. Now, what is the process that is set up in Canada to ensure that the side putting in the question ultimately to the Supreme Court of Canada gets a fair hearing? The process is that it gbes into that province's own Court of Appeal in the first instance. That is a means of ensuring a fair hearing, because you do not get a second chance. And to interfere with that whole process is little short of iniquitous, a ljttle short of malevolent. But that is what happened, Mr. Speaker.

As we all know, to our chagrin, that is what happened. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to mention to han. members some points in a telegram that was received by this government, a telegram sent by the Prime Minister of Canada at the time that the federal government set out to interfere with that mechanism whereby fair iearings are obtained upon reference to the Supreme Court of Canada. There was an explanatory telex sent in which, Mr. Speaker, there were statements made that do not attune themselves with the facts.

I would like 'Jery briefly just to mention one or two of these. said: In his telex, the Prime Minister "I was convinced that our two governments should be able to reach an honourable agreement to which both sides would commit themselves regardless of the outcome of any court rulinq on ownership." Mr. Speaker, how can you commit yourself against a court ruling~ There is only one way to commit yourself to be safe from a court ruling, that is, to entrench the agreement in the 2 i.f n n

June 9, 1982 Tape 1125 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS; constitution. The federal government during the negotiation process absolutely refused to do so. So to say that 'I was convinced that we could commit ourselves' to be safe from any challenge from a court ruling and then, at the same time, refuse entrenchment in the constitution, was dissembling. 2 ;t r~ ·1

,June 9,1982 Tape No. 1126 ah-1 DR.COLLINS: It was not being factual, it was not being stcaight. Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister went on a little further down, "It was on this basis that my negotiators conducted extensive negotiation with your representatives last Fall and Winter." Mr. Speaker, I do not need to remind hon. members in this House that we were the ones who put in a proposal and the federal government,to this date, to this very date has not responded to it.

Now what extensive negotiations are those where one side puts in proposals, comes forward, comes to the table and the other side refuses to even ~nswcr? Extensive negotiations! Mr. Speaker I will skip over a few things ,but here is the most shocking part of this telex,and it says, "The federal government has today asked the Supreme Court or Can~da to cule on the question of whether Cana~a or Newfoundland has ownership of and jurisc;liction over the Hibernia fields." Mr.

Speaker,we know that is an absolute travesty of what in actual fact happened. 'lhere is a map of what went to the Supreme Court~ it was not over the Hibernia field, it was over the Nautilus .;tructure, it was partly over the Ben Nevis st nw!111·c:, it was partly over the f!cbron structure, it was partly over the Terra Nova structure. So that even on that simple point there cannot be straightforwardness, there cannot be clean dealing with the people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, if there is any question of quibbling, of bickering, of good faith or bad faith 1 the facts show that it is the Newfoundland government which has been straightforward and it is the federal government which continually and repeatedly throughout the thing threw roadblocks in the way, went back on its undertakings 1and did ultimately ruin,as it has so many 2 i•

L) June 9,1982 Tape No. 1126 ah-2 lilR. COLLINS: otlier things, ruined the negotiating process. Mr: Speaker, accordincrly T h.lV(~ the greatest of pleasure in saying.that we will go back to the negotiating table,but we will go back with the zippers on our pockets,and we will make sure we do not turn our backs to the other side. We will do it cheerfully and we will do it with the inte~st of the people of this Province and of all Canadians in mind. Thank you. MR.CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. 'member for Bellevue. MR .CALLAN : Mr. Speaker, I want .ed to have a few words on 2 ~. i.~ ·:

June 9, 1982, Tape 1127, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: this resolution by the hon. the member for Stephenville(Mr. Stagg).! first of all want to respond to at least some of the things that the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) was saying. He was giving us, in my opinion, all the wrong reasons, of course, why negotiations have broken off and have failed to this point in time, and blaming the whole thing on Ottawa and the Prime ·Minister and so on. MR. NEARY: MR. CALLAN: Squabbling again. Squabbling. It is traditional, of course, Mr.

Speaker, of most of the Ministerial Statements and the ·ministers arguments on pr~ctically every topic that has to do with anything that goes on between this Province and Ottawa. But, Mr. Speaker, I can refer to many agreements that have been signed,and perhaps it is a fair question to ask, Why were there no DREE agreements signed with the federal government in Ottawa during the nine months that another Prime Minister was there? You see, in my opinion I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that an awful lot of people across this Province are beginning, perhaps a little bit late now, but they are beginning to share the opinion that the reason that this Province is stagnant and is not moving rorw.1rd, ,1nd l.lw r·l~<lfH>n why no more settlern0.nts and no more agreements are being made,goes back to the nature of the Premier, goes back to the nature of the man who is the Premier of this Province. As I just finished saying, Mr. Speaker, everybody in this Province knows it is not vnly uuring tne period of time that our Premi~r has been in office and that Mr.

Trudeau has been in office in Ot.tawa, that is not the only time, in that short history 1 that there has been squabbles and disagreements and so on. Perhaps hon. members opposite like to forget the 2 il u ~~

June 9 , 198 2, Tape 1127 , Page 2 - - apb MR . CALLAN : nine months when Mr . Clark was the Prime Minister of this country and they like to forget that there 1vere no DREE agreem cnt.s signed during that nine month period . And, of course, we had our Premier, the same Premier that we have today, say i ng tbat Romeo LeBlanc 1vas a better Fisheries Minister than his O\vn collea gue , Hr . ~1cr. r a th . 2 iil.J ~ ~

June 9, 1982 Tape 1128 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: And we had the unholy row with Nova Scotia, and the cat-calls and the name calling that went on between our Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), of course, who was led by the Premier, against the Minister of Fisheries in Nova Scotia. All these things happened, Mr. Speaker, between two Tory Governments. It went on between two Tory Governments. Even though the players have changed in Nova Scotia and the players have cbanged in Ottawa, the players have not changed in this Province, Mr. Speaker. The players and the chief actors in this play are the same.

The Premier is the chief actor in this play. And the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) who was then the Minister of Fisheries, is the other actor. He is still here in the same portfolio, and, of course, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) still here and was here then. Mr. Speaker, I want to move an amendment to resolution moved by the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). I move, seconded by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) that the motion be amended by striking out all words in the resolution after 'negotiations', all words after 'negotiations'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

CALLAN: So that the motion will read then Mr. Speaker, the motion will read as follows: Be It Therefore Resolved that this hon. House support the position of the Newfoundland Government in that it is willing to reopen negotiations on the offshore issue with the federal government as soon as the federal government agrees to set aside the ownership issue for the duration of the negotiations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, we are against that last little half a dozen words there which read 21-r u h

June 9 , 198 2 Tape 1128 PK - 2 MR . CALLAN: as follows in the original motion, "and permanently should an agreement be reac hed . " We do not agree . SO$ RON . MEMBERS : MR. Cl\LLl\N: MR, MORGAN: 0 h, oh ! We do not ag r ee . A pre-condition. MR . NEARY: You cannot negotiate with that over your head . That is a par t of the negotiation . AN HON . MEMBER : It cannot be . MR. NEARY: Yes, absolutely . It should be part of the negotiations. MR . CALLAN: Now , Mr.

Speaker , l et me gQt back to what 1 \~<.l s say iny . 'l'h..:: CU..!S<:>n, by thu wuy , Llt,t L we are moving t h is amendment i s obvious, forever and ever and permanently is a lon9 , long time, and I do not want to dwell on that, it is self - evident . MR . NEARY : on the Opper Churchill . MR . CALLAN: the othe r ag r eements . No, we hear that every day That is right . We hear about 2 iti .• l

,June 9, 1982 Tape 1129 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, there is an old saying that love is blind. There is an old saying, a proverb, I suppose, that love is blind. And, Mr. Speaker, T do not believe that that proverb can be ~ny truer applied than to the love that some politicians have for their own political party. In no way can they see any fault with what their own party does even though everybody else around them sees that the Premier's position is wrong or somebody else's position is wrong. What we have happening, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province - and it has been going on now for nearly four years, for nearly four years it has been going on - what we have happening is this: We do not have in word and we do not have in actual fact a deiJartment with that particular name, w·ith that particular title, but what we really have, even though the name is not given to that department - and as we all know, Mr. Speaker, we have enough departments of government already; we had a couple of new ones created following the last election to accommodate a couple of the Premier's friends. But what we have, Mr.

Speaker - let me just quote from a few notes. You see, the whole problem lies with the Premier, and what has actually happened is that the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador has created a new government office - MR. WARREN: What? Tell us about it. MR. CALLAN: - for the handling of affairs with the federal government. MR. Wl\RREN: MR. CALLAN: What is the name of the office? The office is called the Department of Intergovernmental Bickering and Fussin.rr Purpose of Keeping the News Media Busy - and that has been happening for nearly four years now-and confusing co~stituents. And the Premier did 2 l; '' i-l

June 9, 1982 Tape 1130 NM - l MR. CALLAN: an admirable job of it over the four 'years, and especially during the twenty-one days during March and April. As of yet the Premier has not yet appointed a minister to oversee the department, although the most qualified person for the job happens to be the Premier himself. MR. W/\RREN: Oh, 1 SC'0. l sec. MR. CALLAN: The newly created department will take over the duties of the present Intergovern mental Affairs Department that pertain to dealing with the federal government.

And the new department will be subdivided into two divisions, the Compromise Division and the Stubborn Division. MR. WARREN: Oh, oh! Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: The function of the~e two qivisions, although they have not been defined, are more or less self-evident. The department of intergovernmental bickering and fussing for the purpose of keeping the news media busy and confusing the constituents, wil] bccJin hiring and training programmes immediately. 1\pplic.:lnts for a job with this department - MR. WARREN: MR. CALLAN: qualifications - MR. TULK: That is a job to have. MR.

CALLAN: How do you get a job? - must have some basic That is a good job to have. - which include - MR. WARREN: What are they? MR. CALLAN: -experience in name calling, disag~eeing with whatever is said, sulking, not going down, for example, to the Newfoundland Hotel to sign an agreement but sulking and saying, "We are going to stay here at the seat of government," even though the Premier could have gone down and said, "I am very pleased that we are signing 2 ilt J ~I

June 9, 1982 Tape 1130 NM - 2 Ml~ . CALLM.J : this agreement here in the Newfoundland Hotel because in several months from now the hotel will be dest .royed to make room for the new •:e"•foundland Hotel and therefore we are making history here in this building today ." MR . NARREN: That "is right . MR . CALLAN: He could have said all of these things . He could have compromised . But no, no, that division of that ne\•1 department of government is not a compromisinq division . It is the stubborn division -2 :, 1 II

June 9, 1982 MR. WARREN: do you need? MR. CALLAN: Tape 1131 S,D - 1 What other qualifications - which the cmphu.sis h;u; l>l 'l'll placed on in particular, Mr. Speaker. Anyway, the other qualifications, in addition to experience in name call ing, disagreeing with whatever is said and sulking, that, Mr. Speaker, is what has been happening in this Province in particular for t~e past three and a half to four years. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, because of its unusually long name, the department of intergovernmental bickering and fussing for the purpose of keeping the news media busy and confusing the constituents will be known shortly as Interfuss - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. CALLAN: - the new department. Now, Mr. Speaker, as l salu earlier, there is no department of government, it is not listed in the telephone directory, the internal telephone directory and neither do we find it in the departmental salary estimates or anywhere else, but as everybody in this Province, and some people a bit late, are beginning to realize, Mr.

Speaker, that this is what has been happening in this Province. So even though it does not exist on paper it does exist in fact. And that is why, Mr. Speaker, we do not have an agreement with Ottawa such as Nova Scotia has, even though we were told and it was indicated in the Nova Scotia agreement that Newfoundland would probably get a better agreement because right in the Nova Scotia agreement it said, unless this will remain - MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: You should sit there for the first year and be seen and not heard. MR. TOBIN: I intend to represent the people. 2:. i .,

June 9, 1982 Tape 1131 so - 2 t-lR . NEJ\HY : You are copying what the House Leader (Mr . Marshall) teaches you - nastiness. HH . C.:AL.I,i\N : Mr. Speaker , the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr . Tobin) is here for a visit so he should enjoy himself . ~R. WARREN: all. MR. NEJ\RY: a short time anyway . t-!R • l~ARREN : l-1R . TOBIN : I will be still around . MR . NEARY : come ilnd go \-'ho said that . He is here for a visit, that is Right , you are only here for That is r~ght. You will be lying do\m and I have seen a lot of members MH. <:1\~ M1 • Si:><:ak.c r. rom .

NEJ\RY : There is a lot oJ: water under the bridge in twe nty years . When you get btenty years under your belt then you will be able to talk. MR . WARREN: That is right. Do not be too coc ky now with only six \-1eeks under your belt. 1•\R . NEARY: Seven elections in twenty years . When you get that under your belt then you will have something to talk about. t-IR. 'l'OBIN : I will tell you one thing, I am a great worker (inaudible) . ~lR. NEAHY: He is getting flushed up again . 2 4 i /

June 9, 1982 SOME HON. MEMDEk~ . MR. CALLAN: Tape 1132 EC - 1 Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, the vocal member, the very vocal member opposite from Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) - MR. WARREN: A young junior. MR. CALLAN: - is a prime example of what I was saying earlier in my few remarks. MR. WARREN: Of the new department. MR. CALLAN: No, he is a prime example of what I was saying earlier, that the old proverb that says that love is blind cannot be applied any better, I do not think, to love that some people have for their political party. And the bon. the member for Burin - Placentia Wes .t should remember, Mr.

Speaker, that one of his colleagues on his side, who was now looking in through the doorway and just left, was also down for a visit. MR. WARREN: That is righ.t, in the same area. MR. CALLAN: The member who now represents Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), he went down there and he got elected, but it was just for a visit. The next time around he was knocked head over heels. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: And if the member - Mr. Speaker, I ran into a colleague of the hon. the member for Burin - Placentia West when he was with the Department of Social Services.

I ran into one of his colleagues who told me two weeks before polling day - and he was correct on this point - he said, and he used his name which I cannot do in the Legislature, but he, the P.C. candidate - it was the first tim e ever I heard his name - said, 'You know, he is going to give Don Hollett a run for his money in Burin - 2 i1 I :\

June 9, 1982 Tape 1132 EC - 2 NH. CJ\LLl\N : Placentia West, 1 and he said, 1 I think he is going to win . ' And he was right . ~~<.. SPLAKER (Dr .. ~~cliicholas) : Order, please ! Would the hon. member confine his remarks to the motion, please ? MR . C.l\LLAN : Yes, Mr . Speaker, I v:ill confine my remark~ to the motion, and the motion is - wlwl t.hc motion is illl about, Mr . Speaker , is \-.rh y negotiations have not been concluded - not only this particular negotiation, but all the others that I mentioned earlier - why they have not succeeded . And it has to do, Mr . Speaker, with the Premier of this Province . 2 ;_. I u

:,.- June 9, l9d2 Tape No. 1133 MJ - l MR. W. CALLAN: And, Mr. Speaker, we all know that the Premier called an election, which was . held on April 6th, on this very issue ·.vhich this motion is all about. And the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. G. Tobin) was one of the members who got elected on the coattails of the Premier - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: - on the coattails of the Premier . and he is here for a visit. MR. G. WARREN: Right on. It Nas not his. o·dn experience, it was not his own knowledge,! will tell you that. MR. CALLAN: That is what this motion is all about, .~1r. Speaker.

But anyway his colleague said to me, he said, 'He is going to win the district of Burin-Placentia West,' and he was correct on that. But he said, ' He is pretty shallow,' I think he was correct on that as well. MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, t1r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(McNicholas): The hon. the hon. the President of the Council, on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: You called the hon. the member for Bellevue (Mr. W. Callan) to order because he was being irrelevant. The hon. member is continuing along in the same refrain.

When the hon. member is doing that, what he is doing is he is disregarding the ruling of Your Honour. MR. S. NEARY: r-1r. Speaker, there is no point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: My hon. colleague did observe the ruling given by Your Honour there a couple of minutes ago. And it is relevant. The hon. gentleman may have been wandering at the time,and he may be saying things now that hurt the hon. gentleman because they cannot stand the truth on that side of the House, 21-+ "j ~

June 9, 1982 Tape 1133 MJ -2 MR. S. NEARY: but I think it is merely now, Mr. Speaker, no;o1 that the hon. gentleman is back on tr.ack a difference of opinion between t\olO hon. members. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. member is not going to leave the House with his back up, is he? SOME fJON. ~1EMBERS : ~1R. SPl::i\Kl::R (McNicholas) : MR. NEARY: here either. MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! OrdC'lr, please! We do not have Marshall Rules It is not Marshall Law in this House. Order, please! To that point of order, I think there is a difference of opinion. I have to ask the hon. member to continue. NR. WARREN: NR. Ci\LLl1N: Good ruling.

Good ruling. Thank-you, Mr. Speaker. In the two minutes that I have left I ·,:ant to quote from a very famous Hriter. In earlier remarks, Mr. Speaker, in this hon. IIOUSC or Assembly, 2 i; i r~

June 9, 1982, Tape 1134, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: I have been talking about the district of Bellevue ~nd the many important people who have been born in the district of Bellevue, including the Premier, at Whitbourne,in the Markland Cottage Hospital, and the last President of the University. But, Mr. Speaker, there is a very important writer who was also born in the district of I3cll evtw, and just let me quote how this gentleman, this famous writer described what happened on April 6th. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not relevant. MR.

CALLAN: This is relevant, it has to do with the Premier calling a provincial election on the offshore issue and how he won the tremendous mandate. And this writer, this very famous writer who was born in the district of Bellevue and who I believe is a Tory, as far as I know, I know his father is - MR. MARSHALL: Most people are now. MR. CALLAN: Not most people, 60 per cent in this Province.

Most people were on April 6th., but I would say at this point in time, if Lhcy h.J.d c1 chance again, especially after seeing the infamous budget and the silly nonsense that the Premier is continuing with, they probably are not very Tory at all. I rather doubt, Mr. Speaker, that the most of the members of the Markland Cottage Hospital Improvement Committee, who are Tories, and they admit it, it is public knowledge, I rather doubt that they are as Tory now as they were, and I rather doubt that they are Tory at all. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! And all over Newfoundland and Labrador it is the same way. MR.

CALLAN: And that includes Dr. Norman and Stan Dawe and the other members of the Committee. And we will find out tonight, myself and 2 0 • 7 ;+ I I

June 9, 1982, Tape 1134 , Page 2 -- apb MR . CALLAN : the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde(Mr . Reid) . Because I am sure, Mr . Speaker , that the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde opposes what is happening in Harkland . Three towns, Greens Jlarbot.:r, Hopeall and New Harbour are also trusting to that hospital . And, Mr . Speaker, since my time is up - I was going t.o quote from that famous speaker but I will have another occasion . It is very interesting reading, very interesting, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKRR(McNicholas}: The hon. the member for Mount Scio . S0~1E HON • HEi'1BERS : Hear, hear ! t-1R .

B.l\RRY: ~1r . Speaker, I was very, very glad to hear the remarks of the member for Bellevue (t-lr. Callan) since presumably after the up­ coming Liberal Leadership Convention he will be resigning again to make way for the new leader . Of cours~, on second thought that may not happen because Bellevue is no more sa fe, after the last election,than is any other seat for the members opposite . Mr .

Speaker, to get to the topic of ~e resolution ,! have to confess for the life of me I do not understand what the intent or the meaning of the amendment proposed by members opposite is and, there=ore , I cannot support it, not 2 1.! I M

June 9,1982 Tape No. 1135 ah-1 MR. BARRY: understanding it. I do support the resolution as originally framed for reasons which I will attempt to set out. Now, Mr. Speaker, nobody should have any doubts that this Province is willing to negotiate, that the government of this Province has stated time after time that it is willing to negotiate with the federal government.

It has been alleged by members opposite that pre-conditions are being set,and there is a reference in the resolution as framed by the member for Stephenville (Mr.Stagg) ,that negotiations be reopened as soon as the federal government agrees to set the ownership issue aside for the duration of the nego~iations and permanently should an agreement be reached. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am against pre-conditions to negotiation also. I do not believe that that is the way of approaching matters,but this point is not a pre-condition because this goes to the very essence of what we are talking about. How , Mr.

Speaker, can we comternplate negotiating an agreement if we then contemplate the issue of ownership going to the courts and then ownership givinq - MR.NEARY: It is oart of the negotiations. f.ffi. BARRY: - certain rights to either party completely different from what would be negotiated? MR. NEARY: Whether or not it shouJJ be permanently set aside should be a part of the neqotiations. MR. BARRY : Whether or not it should be '"'hat? MR. NEARY: Whether or not it should be permanently set aside should be oart of the neqotiations. Mlt.BARRY: Oh, that will be done, that wiJ I 2 il j Lj

.lune 9,1982 MR .BARRY: be done anyhow . Tape No . 1135 ah -2 be done anyhow . Sure . That will And I agree , you know, you have different styles of negotinting . You can put up your pre-conditions ~nd say now before we do anything you have to do this, thi s and this !1~ . TOLl< : That is on your style . !>1R . BARRY: No, that is not my style .

I tend to believe that as long as you keep your principles str.:~ight ,.,hen you are sitting around the negotiating l.lhl0,ns lonq ns you keep your principles clenr in your O\Yn head , and do not adopt any position that would break these principles, counteract these principles, then you can go in there \dthout pre-conditions and you can gna ,., a\vay at the other si de . You know , you can say, I \·I ill give you this and you give me that and pretty soon Y<>ll arc ~etting to the sta~e where the difference between the two sides is narrower and narrower .

But as far as ownership is concerned, ownership goes right to the essence , goes right to the essence, Mr . Speaker, of this issue and one cannot contemplate an negotiated aqrcement if o\Ynership is left floating around .And one cannot believe that the federal government is interested in bon,, I i <k neqoti<ttion i r there urc not prepn red to aqree that ownership "'ill have to be dealt with . It will have to be recognized ~hat that will have 2 il ? (l

June 9, 1982 Tape 1136 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: to be set aside. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, for cxamplc,if the Province ends up with ownership before the courts ,then this is going to give the Province the absolute right to do certain things,such as to say, "This oil does not move out of the ground until we get such and such a thing." But that is not what is contemplated by this proposal for joint management. 'fhc l'roviJtcc is saying, "No, we are not saying that we want the absolute say.

We are prepared to have joint decision making." But if the matter of ownership goes to the courts and ownership is found to reside with the Province this will give the Province the absolute right. There will be no joint management at that point as far as the federal government is concerned, they are out in the cold. They will still have the right to deal with envjronmental matters.

Th~y will still have certain rights of taxation and so forth, but there will not be that joint management with respect to the granting and exploration permits, with respect to the settinq of royalties and so forth that is contemplated by any, I think,any commentator on what a reasonable negotiated settlement would be. So ownership has to be set aside. And ultimately it has to be set aside permanently if we are going to have a fixed agreement, And in fact, Mr. Speaker, it should be contemplated that t!Jc ultimate agreement will be enshrined in the constitution, by constitutional amendment.

And we have enough provinces supporting our position to bring about that amendment. It only remains for the federal government to live up to what they say ~hey believe in and to agree to the same constitutional chanqe. MR. BAIRD: The member for LaDo~lC' said he would not trust Lalonde . 2 ;_, ~

June 9, 1982 Tape 1136 N.M - 2 MR . Bi\RRY : Now, Mr. Speaker, I was very h<tppy to l':ec the churches take an interest in this issue , and I welcome them into the arena . This is an issue that is very important to the welfare of our people . But I would submit, Mr . Speaker, that the heads of the churches,now that they ha ve decided that they are going to become involved, they now have a responsibility to take a stand . SOME HON. !-\EMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR . BARRY : And, Mr .

Speaker , I would submit that it is not an even-handed approach to continue to cajole both sides to negotiate \•there one side , namely the Province , ha s already evidenced its bona fide willingness to negotiate . som: liON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ ~tR . 111\RI{V : ~o, Mr . Spoakcr, T submit thnt there is n01v a duty upon the heads of the churches to look at the provincial position, to look at 1 2 '·I. )

June 9, 1982, Tape 1137 , Page 1 -- apb MR . BARRY. if they can find, a federal position and to take a stand, to point out the adequacy or the inadequacy of both positions . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR . BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, they will have to come out, I believe they have an obligation. Up to now their statement, to somebody who was not familiar with the issue,would seem to be saying, 'Well, neither one of you are prepared to negotiate' . MR . NE/\RY: /\nu they ,,,.L' l"itJ h 1 . Right on ! MR . BARRY: Well, Mr .

Speaker , they should have, if they do not have it already, I am sure that the Premier and the government will have sent on to them the Province 's position. MR . NEARY: One is just as bad as the other . MR . DARRY: And I am sure that the heads of the churches are going to see that they will have a responsibility now to request the federal position, to request the federal government to send them the federal position as well . SOME liON. l-1EMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR . BARRY: And I would be very interested in seeing what it is they receive as the federal position, because I do not know what the federal position is.

I can only speculate, Mr . Speaker, that the federal position in the negot iations with Newfoundland is that the settlement with Newfoundland presumably should be the same as the settlement wiLh Nova Scotia. I would like to know from the heads of the churches whether they accept that the Nova Scotia agreement is a good agreement for Newfoundland . I 2 ;i 2 i

June 9, 1982, Tape 1137, Page 2 -- apb t-!R . BARRY : would like to ask them to ------ - comment upon \oJhether they believe that the Nova Scotia agreement contains a real joint management provision. As far as I can see it only provides for consultation with the Government of Nova Scotia, but the federal government has the final say. So I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the churches should comment upon if it is the Nova Scotia agreement that is the federal proposal . 50i'1E HON . MEi'1BERS : Come on. MR .

BARRY : I believe that they should, chat they have a moral responsibility and an obligation to say, do they accept the Nova Scotia agreement for Newfoundland or do they want something different . MH_. Nl ·:~1tY .= 'rh at is shocking . That is shameful. 2 ;t2 I

June 9, 1982 Tape 1138 EC - l MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I also would like to know with respect to revenue whether they accept the Nova Scotia agreement where it refers basically to equalization but does not, as far as I can see, have as its aim seeing that the province gets up to the same standard of government services, the same per capita income levels, the same employment levels as other parts of the country. To accept an agreement along the lines of the Nova Scotia agreem ent would condemn this Province forever to an existence less than the national average. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that my children and my grandchildren should be able to aim for somethingmore. By living in this great part of a great country, they should be able to aim for something more than less than the national average. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He?J.r, hear! MR. BARRY: So, Mr.

Speaker, I expect now that the heads of the churches will - they ha ve decided that it is an important issue and I am sure that we are going to see them take a stand, as I bcliove they have a responsibility to do, and I am confident that when they have a~alysed the evidence which is laid out for them that they will support the position that it is the Province of Newfoundland which has been prepared to negoti?J.te and it is the federal government which has been stonewalling, and continually stonewalling on this issue. SOME HQN . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Now, Hr.

Speaker, in terms of the going to the courts, I think it was Senator Flynn had a little bit of research done on previous reference cases that went to the Supreme Court of Canada, 2 ;~ 2 5

June 9, 1982 Tape 1138 EC - 2 MH. BAHHY: and while it seems to be generally assumed that there has never been a case where they went to the Supreme Court of Canada, there is, in fact, one case. There is one case back in 1932, a reference with respect to radio broadcasting, where even though there was a case 2 il 2 ~-~

June 9, 1982 Tape 1139 PK - l MR. BARRY: started in the Quebec Court of Appeal,the federal government took a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada. But, Mr. Speaker, it should be clearly understood and pointed out that there was no objection raised by the Government of Quebec at the time to this procedure being taken.

So this is not a precedent for the federal government to justify the action, the amazing action which they decided to take in this particular case, where the Province was clearly on the record of objecting to hhe Supreme Court of Canada reference until the decision of our Newfoundland Court of Appeal was available to assist the Supreme Court ol Canada in arriving at their ultimate decision. Mr. Speaker, the Supreme Court of Canada is the ultimate arbiter of the law in Canada.

We will have to accept as a government, as a people living under the rule of law, we will have to accept their decision, from a legal point of view,as setting forth the legal position. However, Mr. Speaker, there will be no limit to our right and ability tQ continue the political battle if in fact there should be an adverse legal decision by the Supreme court of Ganada.

Now J believe with the wO\-k th,lt has been done over the past close to ten·years now, the research that is l:.eing prepared, the material that is there, I believe that the material is available for Newfoundland to present a good case which can be successful in the Supreme Court of Canada - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: properly presented, properly arguedr Eut, Mr. Speaker, it would have a better chance of success if it had an airing before our local Court of ~ppeal before they hit the Supreme Court of Canada cold with this 2 i+ 2 7

June 9 11 1982 Tape 1139 PK - 2 MR . Bl\RRY : issue . Our judges , the judge s of this Province , federally appointed judge s, our judges - S01'1E HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR . Bl\RRY : - there is nothing strange or un - usual or weird about it - t hese are members of the Bar fr om this Province,as it is customary in every province to appo int members of the Bar from this Province to the Bench of Newfo1.:ndland . Having grown up in this Province they arc very much uwurc or local conditions . MR . NEI\RY: Is that what thev base their decision on , local conditions, or law? "lR . Bl\RRY : Partly . Partly .

Both . ~tR . NEARY : :aased on both . M R . B/\RitY : Both . MR . NEARY : I see . t-ffi . BARRY : Both, t-1r . Speaker . There is no such thinq, Mr . Speaker , as law in a vacuum,Mr . Speaker. ·rhe law deals •Ti th people . •rhe la\~ deals 1o1i th local con­ ditio ns as well as national conditions, 2 ;,,2 H

'" June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1140 SD - 1 MR. BARRY: and both of those are relevant, Mr. Speaker. The judges of this country,whether it be in Newfoundland or the Supreme Court of Canada,their decision will partly be based upon their own value judgments. It is not just a pure legal principle which forces them to arrive at a decision irrevocably no matter wh~t they think personally. It is not prejudice, Mr. Speaker, in the derogatory sense as the members opposite are holding out.

That is not prejudice, that is a recognition that any human being in arriving at a legal decision bases that decision on his own belief system, on his own values,as well as on legal principles. MR. TULK: ~ou do not really believe that. MR. BAIRD: MR. BARRY: Whose side are you on? Well,if the hon. member does not believe that he can read an

article that is coming out in the Canadian Bar Review this month, written by myself,where I set this out, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite has 1 I would say it is a very common view of the law but it is an erroneous view of the law,that there is such a thing as a legal principle in a vacuum, '!'.here is no such animal. It is not possible, Mr. Speaker, to have a legal principle in a vacuum. The law concerns itself with people and with values and most difficult legal cases involve having to balance two particular values. Now in this case, Mr.

Speaker, the difficult issue before the Supreme Court of Canada is going to have to concern itself with balancing local provincial interests with national interests. And, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe - MR. NEA~~: _ You should be on the ~ a P~F Chase. MR. BARRY: 1f members opposite would listen for a moment . now they would get rid of some of these weird 1bizarre ideas they have about what the law is. Mr. 2 i.; 2 ~!

June 9, 1982 Tape No . 1140 SD - 2 MR . BARRY : Speaker, the law is an ass but only when it is set forth by asinine individuals .Ot .her wise the law is not an ass,the law is a good mechanism for social order . Now, Mr . Speaker, I would submit that it would be of great value to the Supreme Court of Canada to have had the vie\.,rs of the judges of the Newfound land Court of Appeal, who have certain values as people who have grown up in ,\LI;,n Li.c <:nn•1dn, in Newfoundland, who are aware or the high levels of unemployment , the low per capita income , the limited opportunities , ~tr .

Speaker, for development in this Province, the limited opportunities for a provincial government to control its own destiny . Mr. Speaker , 1 rc-or thot some oE these values, some of these concerns, may be lost when it gets to Ottawa '"here ~·e have judges, in many cases , appointed from all across Canada but , Mr . Speaker , after they have been in Ottawa for a ,.,hile they tend to th ink that the world, 2 i~ 3 ,.,

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1141 MJ - l MR. L. BARRY: as I fear as do some or MP's, they tend to think that the world revolves around the Rideau Canal, Mr. Speaker. And I think it would benefit our judges, the Supreme Court of Canaaa as well as other judges in all parts of Canada,to get out and get a better feel for what conditions people are living under 1ere in Newfoundland, in British Columbia, in Alberta,any•.-~here within Canada. And this will make thcit: lc <Jill decisions more humane,Mr. Speaker. It will bring their legal decisions closer to common sense.

It will avoid decisions being looked at as being exercises in so-called legal technicalities. Mr. Speaker, that is why I ~clic\C it 1s important that this particular' issue be heard iniliul I y by tIll' Newfoundland Court of Appeal. MR. S. NEARY: statements like that. He should be disbarred for makinq MR. BARRY: ~1r. Speaker, this member is not going to be disbarred for making statements like this and I will defend, Mr. Speaker, the position I have taken as being a legitimate exercise of my responsibility as an MHA.

And I will suy the same thing outside of the House as inside,and if there is a threat to disbarment, well so be it. But this is what I believe and this is what the facts are. This is an issue which is so important to our Province that we should start forge~tinq about our personal interest. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Leader of the Opposition. ~R. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: AN HON. MEMBER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the You cannot thake it. Mr. Speaker, one of the no-no's­ Oh, oh! Now we know whose side the lwo o f you are on. Now we know where you stand. 2 i\ ~i i

" .June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1141 t1J -2 MR. S. N8ARY: ---------Mr. Speaker, this has nothing I'<' dt> \~i Lh where we stann nr we do not st<Jnd, it has to uo 1vi th ·just a vicious attack that was just made by the hon. qentleman on the judges of the Supreme court. Now, ~1r. Speaker, under the rules of this House,and our oath of office, by the 1·1ay, nobody but nobody is permitted to attack the Queen or judges of the Supreme co·Jrt. The hon. gentleman just did it via the back door. Inuendo - MR. BAIRD: A differece of opinic:m. MR. NBJ\RY: No ,it is not a difference of opinion, Me.

Spcclker, and T think l'le should send for Hansard and have it brought into the House. The ~ind of remarks just made by Ll1<~ hon. qcnt 1 em<~n 1·Ti.ll undermine the judicial system of this country. ~IR. 'l'Ol31N: Trying to weasel out. MH. NEJ\R'i: No,I am not trying to weasel out. 'rhe hon. gentlema:l made an indirect attack on the Supreme Court judges and that is a no-no in this House, Mr. Speaker.

And before Your Honour rules I would hope Your Honour will send ror llansilrd, because this is the Cirst time to my knO\.Jledge that I have ever \'litnessed an attack on the judges of the court that was jusc made by the hon. gentleman. It is a very serious matter and it is a no-no, Mr. Speaker,in this hon. Honour. MIL 1:/\RUY: * -------- To that point of order, Mr. Soeaker. 11R...:__?PEl\KEa (Avl~-rard.): To that point of order, the bon. th~ mcm1)e. r for '~ount Scio. MR.

Dli.RRY: r welcome Your Honour taking a Look at Hansard and Your Honour 1vill find that there 111as no attack on the judiciary, no attack on the Queen, 2 J • . , ....

.! June 9, 1982 Tape 1142 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: maybe an attack on the Queen's English from time to time. But, Mr. Speaker, what I set out was the belief that judges are influenced in their decisions by their own value systems. Now, Mr. Speaker, if that is a criticism of the judiciary, sobeit. MR. SPEAKER (Ayl ward): Order, please! I have heard enough on the point of order. I was paying very close attention to the hon. member's speech and I do not see that there was a point of order. I do not consider his speech · an attack on the judges,so there is no point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. the member for Hount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, just to conclude my ·remarks, I would submit that lhc Pr.i.mc M.i:nistL'J" nl' Canada should get down off his high horse, his ministers should get down off their high ponies,and they should be prepared to speak to the Premier of this Province and the Government of this Province on this issue. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I believe it is shameful that the Prime Minister of Canada has to date refused to meet with the Premier to discuss this issue.

The time has come for an offshore summit, a summit meeting, Mr. Speaker. The Versailles Summit may have failed but the offshore summit must not fail. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: ' , Thank you very much. Hear, hear! Oh, oh!

June! 9, 1982 MR . SPEAKER (Aylward): t>tn • WOODROW : MR . Sl?C:AKER: Bay of Islands . MR. WOODROW : Tape 11 42 Order , please! Mr. Speaker . EC - 2 The hon . the member for Mr. Speaker, I recall the days when the hon . Don Jamieson was in this House . He always liked and cherished \-lhat he used to call a bit of friendly heckling and the like . In fact., I miss him sometimes in this House . J would like! just to make a couple of remarks . First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to 2 i, 31<

June 9, 1982 Tape 1143 NN - 1 fo1R . WOODROW : congratulate the Serqeant-nt-Arms . He, like his prede cessor , is certainly carrying out his duties in a very dignified manner. MR . NEARY: t-1r . Speaker, a point of order . MR . SPEAKER {Aylward) : Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: A point of order, the hon. fo1r . Speaker, I hate to interrupt the hon. gentleman so early in his remarks , but I do not think the hon . gentleman is relevant, and I ask Your Honour, if the hon . ge ntl eman - MR. BAIRD: MR .

NEARY: As relevant as you will ever be . if the hon . gentleman is goinq to speak on the resolution we would like to hear what he has to say , but what does it have to do with the Sergeant-at -Arms, Mr . Speaker? MR . WOODROW: Mr . S~caker , that is no ~oinl of orde r. In fact,that has been done frequen tly in this llouse. Tn fact there is a lot of foolishness expressed . MR . SPEAKER {Aylward) : To that point of order , T wish to point out to the hon . member for the Bay of Islands (Mr .

Woodro1vl that there is an amendment to the resolution which 1ve were dealing with,but I would also like to say that quite often in this House as the member is making his initial speech in the House he congratulates different officers of the House while he is makinq them . MR. BAIRD : MR. WOODROW: Shot do1m again . Shot down again . Mr . Speaker, I am very pleased to have a fe w brief remarks on this timely Private Member s motinn presented by my colleague from Stephenville {t-1r . Sta qq) . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 2:. :j -;

June 9, 1982 Tape 11 43 NM - 2 MR . WOODROW : It would be an understatement to say that it is an important issue , as I think all hon . members present here would aqree,that th e fair and equitable settlement of our offshore resources is the last chance for our l'rovlm:l' unci pt'ople to experience cquillity \•dthin Confederatio n. !>1R . NEARY : So und s li ke de velop or pe rish . MR . WOODROW : At no other time si nce we entered Canada in 1949 have sentiment s been running higher in this Province . Our people have stood united and determined that riqht shall prevail , that we are no lonq er co ntent with sell -outs or qi ve-a~1ays of our resources . 2 i, J ~~

June 9, 1982, Tape 1144, Page 1 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, they have also spoken loud that takeaways are also a thing of the past, Sixty-one per cent of our people of the Province in their statement of expression on April 6th., when the Liberal Party was almost wiped out in this Province. MR. YOUNG: When the leader had a majority of only twenty-one votes. MR. WOODROW: Twenty-one. On that date, Mr. Speaker, a clear message and warning was sent to Mr. Lalonde ~nd Mr. Trudeau, that the spirit of the Fighting Newfoundlander is still alive and well here. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, the time is quickly approaching. We have a rendezvous with destiny it seems. The cards are almost fully played out. History is being written daily. Mr. Speaker, this destiny, this history will not only directly affect each and everyone today, but as the hon. the member for Mount Scio(Mr. Barry) said, his children and his grandchildren, and all succeeding generations of unGorn Newfoundlanders.

The ultimate settlement of our offshore resources will decide for all time whether we as people are given the opportunity to secure the means to become equal Canadians, or whether we are forever to be a poor cousin in Confederation, content with federal handouts. Mr. Speaker, the federal government, including this Province's five Liberal M.Ps have indicated during the past number of years that this is their vision and perception of Newfoundland and Labrador, to keep us down under, to keep us going for handouts, to keep giving us the equalization payments. 21+37

June 9, 1982, Tape 1144, Page 2 -- apb MR. WOODROW: It would be terrible if we happened tJ get up with Nova Scotia or up with Ontario or the like. 2 i, 3 Fl

June 9, 1982 Tape 1145 PK - l MR. WOODROW: They have by their actions ignored our court, ignored the message of our people, iqnored this Legislature, which serves our people, and is embarked on a course which will forever scuttle any hope of equality for our Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hep.r! M.R. NEARY : That will not yet you in the Cilbinot. MR. WOODROW: Now they are not - MR. NEARY: You will not get in the Cabinet wi~h that. MR. WOODROW: I must admit that the members here In this House, the Liberal members, are with us. ~t least they voted in favour of the resolution we had a while back. MR.

TOBIN: You are gone wishy, washy. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Wishy-washy! MR. WOODROW: It is frightening to witness the complete disregard and coldness of the present federal government. We all heard the catch phrase fed-bashing thrown i.J!JOtJt lJy t·h(' tll<'<li<t, wi.l h t·Jw lt'ds h.1~;]1inq l'.tn.tdi.tn ,; from coast to coast through their ruthless Budqet, bashin•r business and homeowners with high interest rates, bashinq the legitimate goals and aspirations of individuals through record unemployment. It is obvious that the term has been re-defined. Mr.

Speaker, our just society seems a world away. The just sociyty of Prime Minister Trudeau obviously does not apply in our case. MR. TULK: You should be in the cabinet. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, a just society in which the Provincial Court of Appeal is ignored, a just society in which 61 per cent of the people of the Province are ignored, a just society where justice and equality of treatment is i':)nored, _and we could ':JO on and on. Mr. Speaker, these are the things that 2 I - '-f .j ~1

June 9, 1982 Tape 1145 PK - 2 HR . toJOODROtv : one would expect to see in Poland, in Russin, or 1\rqentin.:l, rather than the Canadian just society . Do we have a junta in Ottawa? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! HR . \vOODROW : Now, Mr . Speaker, I want to be heard in silence . MR . SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please ! MR . WOODROW: : bo we have a junta in Otta,~a who are removed from the democratic process? Who push on with their tunnel vision despite the pleas of our ten provinces? I see here a former member of this House sitting close by us . Are our Liber al MPs afraid to speak out on our offshore resources?

SOHE liON . MEMBERS: Yes . MH . 1-JOODROW : Yes, right . I can say then, ~tr . Speaker, they do not really have to ignore their party on this particular issue . They are free to speak . Are they afraid of their boss in Ottawa? MR . NEARY: Yes, that is right! 2 I. II 11

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1146 SD - 1 Mil.. BAIRD: They will be more scared of their constituents in the next election. MR. WOODROW: Is the federal government afraid to address the fair and reasonable proposal submitted by the Province; a ~roposal, Mr. speaker, hailed across Canada as being an enlightening and workable document that many of the Canadian Premiers have endorsed? It is reasonable, and, as our Premier said, it was not written in stone, they could sit down and talk the proposal over and they could come to some good agreement,but it was ignored, it was ignored completely by the Prime Minister of Canada.

No wonder the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) says that there should be a summit meeting between our Premier and Mr. Trudeau. Mr. Speaker, the federal government has attempted and is attempting to wrestle our offshore resources from this Province through the backdoor. And I as one member of this House, representing a district tvhere I won with a big majority,and won it for the third time- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WOODROW: - I, as one, get more upset each day about it~ ln fact, it makes me sick to the stomach on times to think that we cannot be given equality with other Canadians. SOME liON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WOODROW: They attempt it through the SIU case,through pressure tactics following the so-called Nova Scotia offshore assessment and now through the unprecedentPn action of bypassing our provincial court with a direct reference to the Supreme Court of Canada. Followed by this cowardly action, we had the spectacle of one of our Liberal MPs, Mr. Bill Rompkey, telling us it was a qrcat thing for our Province. In fact 1 he sat by Mr. Chretian, the Minister of Justice, he did not open his mouth, just ready to qive our Province away. That the - 2 4 4 ·j

June 9, 1982 Tape 1146 MR. WOODROW: unprecedented action was tQkcn in our best interest, that the offshore was not ~oing to be considered only the Hibernia oilfield, 2 i+ 4 ) JC - 2

June 9, 1982 Tape 1147 EC - l MR. WOODHOW: nonsense! I wonder does the Prime Minister think that we are fools down here, or what? IJhilt does he think about us? Mr. Speaker, how green do they think we are? Have they not realized that the days of the Newfie joke are over? Given Mr. Rompkey's comments and actions during the past number of months, it is obvious that there are few around who still fit the bilJ., Bill Rompkey. l·1r. Speaker, the biggest joke of all, cruel though it is in his ignorance, is that the federal action in the Supreme Court js a benefit to this Province. As the Province was in mourning, Mr.

Rompkcy boskcd in celebration Well, there is going to be some fun when the next federal election is called! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, we have attempted to negotiate in good faith. We have attempted to negotiate in good faith. We have indicated that we have always been willing to negotiate in good faith and towards this end submitted a fair and reasonable proposal as the basis for discussion. MR. NEARY: What did the heads of the churches say about it? MR. WOODROW: MR. NEARY: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. WOODRO\v: They can speak for themselves. I see. Oh, oh! Hr.

Speaker, our proposal was ignored. Everybody knows it was iqnored. The Premier did not even receive a reply from the Prime Minister of Canada. Our proposal was ignored and is being ignored like the plague by the federal government. 21-\4 '·\

June 9, 1982 Tape 1147 EC - 2 MH . \•IOODHOW: \<lell T \-IOUld congratulate our church leaders for their initiative and sensitive comments on this vital issue, their concern . I \-IOuld conclude by saying that further meaningful discussions seem impossible.because recent action by the federal government \-lithout historic precedent has made it so . If the Prime Minister of canada - in fact, he has not yet replied to che churches, unless he replied today. But our Premier had a message out twenty-four hours after. The federal government, Hr.

Speaker, must realize that Newfoundlanders and t .• :IIH·,,do ri.lns 1oJi1l ~C~L'pl noLhincJ less th;;m n faj r .:~n(] r.e.:1sonable settlement of our rich offshore wealth . 2 i1 ~ 1,

June 9, 1982, Tape 1148, Page 1 -- apb MR. WOODROW: In fact, it is sad to think, you know, we have been striving for hundreds of years. I recall, in fact, the member for Carbonear (Mr. peach) when he spoke here recently, he spoke about the settlement where I was born, he spoke about Northern Bay. It was the first time I heard it mentioned in the House of Assembly. And I recall in those days - probably the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) would recall it also - how hard our people worked, how hard our Lt L h~r s and forefathers worked in the fishing boats and what have you.

I know my father said to me, 'Try to educate yourself so you will not have to work as hard as I have to work'. And it seems that this hard work, this begging, this going to Ottawa for the crumbs is still going to continue. It is a shame, Mr. Speaker, it would make one's blood run wild, or run cold or something. MR .. BAIRD: Vile. MR. WOODROW: It is vile. That is the word. It is unfortunate, and it will be a sad day for our Province when we have to fight for rights that other Canadians have always enjoyed without question.

It is sad to think that we are here still struggling/ with a Premier who is honest and sincere, who lays the cards on the table, lays them on the table. That is what it is all about. This, Mr. Speaker, is precisely the bondage that has enslaved us and which will be broken. Let the message go forth t·o Prime Minister Trudeau and Energy Minister Lalonde that Newfoundland and Labrador shall have its place in the sun, not because of but in spite of their efforts. As I have said, Mr. Speaker, I feel that this hon. House of Assembly is united on it, but there still seems to be a lot of pussyfooting, 2 Lf 4 S

June 9, 1982, Tape 1148, Page 2 --apb MR. WOODROW: wishy-washy stuff going un. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: I think we should really say we are going to work together to get \vhat this Province deserves and what it owns. Mr. Speaker, I support the resolution. I am really delighted to have the opportunity to speak on it. I must say I am surprised - I had another little remark to make, but because of the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) making a point of order, 'Oh' he says, 'you have to speak to the resolution' . MR. NEJ\RV: ----.. ------That is right.

You cannot attack the Queen, you cannot attack the judges of the Supreme Court. MR. WOODROW: Well, it has always been done in this House. There has always been little

preambles 24~R

.June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1149 PS - l MR. WOODROW: and who makes them more than the han. member of LaPoile (Mr. Neary)? MR. NEARY: You cannot slander a member's mother in this House. MR. WOODROW : Mr. Speaker, T support this resolution in the hope that there may yet be time for the federal government to abandon its present course of action and ncqotiate a settlement in the best interests of Newfoundland and Canada. Our proposal is on the table awaiting a reply.

How nice it would be if tomorrow morning the Premier could announce that he received a telegram or a telephone call from the Prime Minister of Canada saying, "Come on up boy, let us settle down and get this thing over with." How con you hlal'1e this Province? What more can we do? We have almost gone on bended knees and they still are ignoring us. So, Mr. Speaker, I hope that the message will be sent by the CBC, that we are still awaiting the Prime Minister's reply. We may have to wait until he gets back from - he is over in Europe somcwlwrc now, I guess. However, Mr. Speaker, I support the resolution. MR.

BAIRD: He is probably down discoing in New York somewhere. MR. WOODROW: And I would like to say that I would do everything in my power to make Newfoundland and Labrador a better place to live in and to make us all equal Canadians, make us all equal Canadians. Why keep down and pick 11n n little Province like Newfoundland? It certainly is not fair . So, Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have had the opportunity to say a few words and once again I support the resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S_!'EAKER (1\ylward): The hon. the member for Foqo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, let me first of all congratulate the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2 it~ 7

June 9, 1982 Tape No . 1149 PS - 2 ~m . TULK : While I may not always agree witr him, I believe that wh .at he says he believes and that is a laudable thing in itself . MIL NEARY : MR . TULK : ~tr. Speaker, this resolution - What he reads he believes in . r agree the member believes it to be true and that is good, if he says what he believes to be true . MR. BAIRD : Do you believe it? MR . TOLK: Some of it, but only some of it . Now, Mr. Speaker, the resolution itself, if you want to look at the resolution, some of the things in that resolution are laudable 2 ~.~fl

June 9 , l982 Tape No . 1150 MLeP- 1 MR . B . TUU:: perhaps , but <.:c rtu.inly ili::H "" much in that resolution is not laudable . I think that is the reason why the member for Bellevue ( ~tr . Callan has asked thnL jt be amended . Mr . Speaker, one of the things that this resolution does, as hon . members of this House will remember if they were in th e House last year, one of the things this resolution does, and sho1•s is that the government of this Province has taken a comoletu rc- versal inpolicy on our offshore rhrhts . MR . N.I::ARY: Right on . MR . TUT...K: A complete reversal inpolicy.

The previous position of this government as expounded by the Premier was that we must have complete Olvnership , complete and total control. MR. NEARY : That is right . MIL 'l'IJJ,K : /\nd h•· :>.tys 1vi IIHiut O lllllVI !;lli)', 111<'!-l\' are his lvords, there can be no control. I remember the mcmbe1· for the Strait of Belle Isle ( 1'1r. Rober -ts ) , about t1vo years .:l<JO, standing up and tryinq to tell the Premier that even j f you h.:•tl ownership, and I think the example that he usc<.! 111as a lwust · , even if you had mvnership you did not necessarily have control .

And the Premier, of course, pooh -poobed that . Now, Mr . Speaker , MR . Bll.IRD : Do you want joint Ol·me rship"? 1'1R. TULK: No, that is our position . \'ielcome aboard . They n01v seem to .realize , Mr . Speaker, the Premier and his people on the othe r. side now seem to realize that perhaps the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, and perhaos this side of the House, were riqht all a1onq . So 1vhat do t-he y 1-1ant to clo nm~? 'I'hl:'y want to set ownership aside , set it aside , let us not talk ,,b,Htt it anymore .

You do not have to have Olv'1ership to get the bl•ne fiLs of the offshore anymore , they \vant nm~ to negotiate . 2 :, ~~I

,June 9, 1982 Tape No . 1150 MleP-2 ~lR. TULK: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a complete f.tip-flop on the part of this administration. MH. Nl':I\RY: Tliqht on. ~tR. 'I'll!.!': Either they are being political and perhaps realizing that the people of this Province-I believe i.t was last year they sa1.-that there 1<1as a Little dent in their arqurnen t, last September or last October, 1-1hen the people of this Province, started to say to the Premier, 'Perhaps you should . neqotiate. Perhaps they realize the facts, the facts of life, and that is that they were in some trouble. In any case, ~tr.

Speaker, I 1·1ant to welcome the members on the other side, the government, to the Liberal positio::~ on the offshore 01-mership. SOME liON. !'~EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. 'l'UI.K: T 1-1ant to l•l.elcome them to it. MTL llU'L'T: (Inaudible) . The hon. member i ,t •II' ''"' l P ;,~k t0 ;-:ink. MR. 'l'ULK: I am still afloat, my dear friend. As l said, ~r. Speaker- MR. NEARY: They are both going to sink if they put anymore money up there. £:1!.1 ..:_ :£~1..K :_ He has got every cent of money, I understand, that is over there. As I said, !1r.

Speaker, on that night of mournihg, ·.vhen 1ve saw the arm bands displayed on the other side, I could not believe my eyes. In Augusto£ 81, I saw this ne1oJspaper, I s ti 11 ~ot a copy of it some~o1here, sa1o1 this newspaper from the Premier's office. I think it was from the Premier's office, it was from the govzrnment office's anyway, the Premier's propaganda, thls political newspaper 2~1sn

June 9, 19~2 Tape No. 1151 RA - 1 MR. TULK: appeared with the liberal position, the position that I just outlined to you, with the liberal position firmly stated. I think what happened,as I said before, Mr.Speaker, is that the Premier realized that the people of this Province really wanted to neqot­ iate so he added the word 'negotiate' to his vocabulary. MR. NEARY: Is that what you are talking about? They sent one to every householder in Newfoundland. MR. TULK: I think that is it. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe-and I think the member for Mount Scio, .(Mr.

Barry) and I wish he were here, started off nn the right track this evenino- I do not believe that even though he has added that word 'negotiate' to his vocabulary, I do not believe that he really knows what the word means. And I think the member for Mount Scio started to say that and he got afraid perhaps that he was going to get put out in the gallery and he with- drew somewhat into a shell. The Premier and this qovern­ ment have set up barriers, they have set up barriers to the whole negotiating process. And one, Mr. Speaker, is that they want- they say,'Well 1 we must have ownership set aside'.

Why not make that a goal of the negotiations, a prin~ipal of the negotiations that you keep in your mind, and that you negotiate and that you will not sign an agree­ ment unless you can negotiate,ownership asid~? Why not? So, Mr. Speaker, we see a complete flip-flop, their inRhility to negotiate. Well, Mr. Speaker, I was going to say some of the things that the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) said last Wednesday. It is not going to be an attack,so I will just record it for him in Hansaru so he can read it.

He opened the debate and for about the tenth time he regurgitated the Clark/Peckford fiasco and that 2 :, ~i I

June 9, 1982 Tape No. 1151 RA - 2 MR . TULK: is what it was. I think it ended on the steps of Confederation building. The Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth(Mr. Simms) and ~e is not here, poor soul, said nothing except to say what everybody else had not saidr That is all he said. I think he went back and used his speech that he should . ~ . . ' ; ' . . ~ have. mq.qe r perhcips' 0~ that night. of mourning r . the . night when we had the black arm bands in the House. He en- gag ed on a little bit of hero worship, I think he has learned the trait that you have to kiss the picture, and then he s.:~t down. The member for naic Vcrte-Whitc