Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XL First Session Number 52 VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Monday 4 November 1985

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. SIMMS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SI1Z: Mr. Speaker, I want to raise a point of privilege today. This matter has just come to my attention, therefore it is the earliest possible opportunity for me to raise this matter. I hope that you will allow me just a couple of minutes of

preamble as I attempt to present a case which I think will clearly indicate an abuse of the privileges afforded to members of the House of Assembly. I say that, Mr. Speaker, having occupied the Chair myself, which Your Honour now occupies, for a period of nearly three years. I suppose that more than the average member I would have a considerable amount of respect for the privileges which eLected members have and which have been protected for centuries. It is the reason, mainly, that offends me. when 1 see an obvious breach of these privileges and ruLes. Mr.

Speaker, 1 listened with some aitiisement to the reaction of the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) a few days ago when the Premier exposed the holier than thou attitude of the member by contradicting him when he said that NDP governments do not practice patronage. The Premier, of course, has clearly shown and provided dozens of examples of patronage being practiced by NDP governments in other jurisdictions.

I also listened with some amusement to the member try to indicate that this party had received major contributions to its political campaigns and had spent a lot more money, of course, than the other parties, whilst at the same time I noticed he was unabLe to unequivocally say that the salaries of high powered UDP organizers from Ottawa, who were sent down to campaign, were also included in the NDP expense statements. The tactics being used by the member, I think, are rather obvious to all observers of politics in this Province.

I do not think those types of attempts to fool the people will go unrecognized, and so they can continue to use organizers from the mainland to try to help them gain members in the party, that is fair ball. The way they are doing it now, for example, they are phoning people and inviting them to get involved in their party, but, at the same time, they then send the mainland organizer around to the households to have personal interviews with them. That is fine. Those types of tactics, I suppose, are evident to anybody to observe. Mr.

Speaker, there is one thing that came to my attention today that really irks me and offends me and which I find rather repugnant, and that is when a member of this hon. House uses the taxpayers' money, money which is provided to him or to her to operate his or her office, to try to promote his or her particular party at taxpayer's expense. As a specific example I want to refer to you, Mr. Speaker - and I will table a copy of it - the stationery which the member for L2756 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2756

Menihek uses, which is paid for by the taxpayers one way or the other, and which advertises the NDP logo. And what I find particularly offensive, Mr. Speaker, is that on the reverse side of the envelopes in which the member sends sends out his correspondence, postage paid for by the taxpayer, the return address is, 'Office of the NDP, Fifth Floor, Confederation Building.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: what! MR. SIMRS: Now, Mr. Speaker, to my way of thinking this is an abuse of the privilege that this hon. member has been afforded.

No other member of this House, to my knowledge, abuses that kind of privilege nor so flagrantly spends the taxpayers' money so brazenly to promote his own party. I submit to Your Honour that all members who occupy offices in the Confederation Building or elsewhere, occupy those offices as an elected member for a particular district, they do not occupy those offices to represent their particular party in a government building paid for by taxpayers. And surely to heavens, Mr.

Speaker, we cannot allow this type of abuse to fester, nor can we allow hon. members to abuse the privileges of the House and to waste taxpayers' money to promote their own specific individual concerns and their own specific parties. I think I have given an example, Mr. Speaker, which shows that these tactics, similar to those used by the member in the past, smack of hypocrisy. I venture to say, Mr.

Speaker, that if the shoe was on the other foot and if, indeed, government members on the fifth floor, or Opposition members for that matter, sent out their stationery and envelopes which said the PC Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, Fifth Floor, or the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, I would venture to bet that the hon. member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) would be the first one to charge us with abuse of privilege. I trust that Your Honour will take this particular matter that I raise under consideration and respectfully report to the House at the appropriate time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, to the point of privilege. MR. BARRY: If I could just briefly speak to that. The minister makes a good point. From time to time, I suspect, members will slip into using - I know I have - stationery of the Liberal Party, paid for by the Liberal Party. In my office from time to time, if I am sending out a quick note I will send it out on that paper. Occasionally, I might say, I have had to send letters back because the secretaries hauled out the wrong piece of stationery. It is something that can happen.

But, I might say, it is something that is encouraged by the process which we have seen exercised on the eighth floor of this building, the Premier's Office, where we L2757 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2757

have these Little pamphlets, Mr. Speaker, which, for the last several years, have been purely political in a partisan sense, which have not been dealing with anything relating to government policy but have been dealing with promoting the political interests of the Tory Party. those pamphlets are printed at the taxpayers' expense. They are mailed out. I think the Minister of Education (Mr.

Hearn) indicated that the propaganda was sent out to the schools in this Province and, as well, they are sent out to the liquor stores and everybody finds them cluttering up the place when they try to get a little bit of cheer to carry them over another hard weekend. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to mention to the minister that I do not blame the member for Menihek (Hr.

Fenwick) for being a little bit confused with respect to the office and the return address, seeing as the government sign down on the fifth floor which was put up by the government, on the government's instructions says "Office of the NDP Leader". So maybe government should Look to its own practices before it starts bending over and tearing up cobblestones to fling at the member for Menihek. By the way, I would like to say how happy we are to see that the meither for Menihek survived his vote of confidence by Mr. Cashin and his group this weekend. MR. FEThàICK: To a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of privilege, the hon. the member for Menihek. I am at loss to be able to explain to you what the contents of the letter are because I have not seen it. But I can tell you that the stationary is what I was given by the Printing Services people when we first established the office back in November of last year. Since that time the Clerk of the House has indicated that that is not the appropriate return address for correspondence, and I understand that the new stationary ordered will say "Offices of the LDP Opposition's, which I think is more appropriately what it should be.

As to what the particular letter was, I do not know, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege I will consider all aspects and rule at a later date. The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is unrelated to the point of privilege, but before we get to the regular business of the day, I would like to ask the House to unanimously endorse a resolution to send a message of condolences to the family of the late Heher Broomfield of Happy Valley - Goose Bay. If I may briefly explain that request, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Broomfield was involved with the field of recreation for almost twenty years, both in Churchill Falls and Happy Valley - Goose Bay in the Naskaupi district, and during that period of time he was involved with a lot of organizations and associations which took his expertise and his dedication outside the district itself so that he would be recognized not only locally and regionally but also on a provincial level, and perhaps L2758 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2758

beyond that. as we Ll. For the information of the. House I have requested that the Happy Valley - Goose Bay town council rename or name the Happy Valley - Goose Bay arena in honour of Hr. Broomfield for his contributions to his particular endeavour, and I believe that that will be coinplied with. I further suggested to them that should they decide to take that suggestion, that an appropriate time for a dedication ceremony might be at the opening of the second Labrador Winter games.

Because of his contributions, because of his dedication, and because of his efforts in the field of sports and recreation, I make this request. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. HR. MATThEWS: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. We, on this side, as weLl, Hr. Speaker, would Like to go on record as supporting the resolution of the hon. the member for Naskaupi (Hr. Kelland) in extending condolences to the family of the late Mr. Broomfield. As Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, I am very much aware of how very involved the late Hr.

Broomfield was in community affairs, both locally and regionally in Labrador and, I must say, he is a gentleman who was held in very high esteem and respect by the officials of my department. I, as well, would like to concur with the suggestion that the hon. member has made with regard to the arena. I am hoping to attend the opening of the Labrador Games and I would very ich like to officiate at that particular function. So -.,. on this side, Ur. Speaker, wou Id like to go on record as being in unanimous agreement with the hon. gentleman on the resolution to send condolences.

Statements by Ministers PREMI ER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, over the past several years, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has been planning and preparing for offshore oil and gas development. A number of years ago the government adopted a poLicy of designating a nurither of areas in the Province which, from our studies, would he appropriate sites for onshore industria I development relating to offshore activity.

This past year, after many years of frustration and debate, we were successful in signing with the federal government the Atlantic Accord which contains provisions which meet the aims and objectives set out by the Newfoundland Government years ago. In addition, the Petroleum Directorate was established to ensure that government had the expertise to protect our interests and to allow Newfoundland to become fully involved in the offshore. More recently, a new department of Career Development and Advanced Studies was established to ensure L2759 noveaher 4, 1985 Vol XL to. 52 R2759

our educational system is so organized that we can train our people for occupations which will permit them to take advantage of job opportunities that will inevitably result from offshore hydrocarbon development. From time to time, through the Department of Development and the Petroleum Directorate, we have hired consultants to assist us in our work in preparing for the Hibernia development itself. It is, of course, of utmost importance that we. have the best people available to assist us in our preparation and execution of this massive project. Just recently, Dr.

Covier was hired by both governments to advise us on the establishment of the joint board. As a result, three permanent members of the board have been announced, and the full board will be in place very shortly and be able to begin its work, consistent with the provisions of the Atlantic Accord. Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador will leave no stone unturned to ensure we have the best advice available to assist us in formalizing an agreement on the Hibernia project and on other offshore projects and policies in general.

It is, therefore, with great pleasure that I announce, on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, that we have retained the services of the hon. Peter Lougheed to act as an energy advisor to the government on energy matters, especially dealing with offshore hydrocarbon development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. Mr. Lougheed will be paid a fee of $40,000 per year plus travel expenses. He will prepare quarterly reports to the government on the Canadian and global energy scene and its impact upon Newfoundland's ongoing energy policy.

He will advise us on issues dealing with Hibernia development and will be available for special projects from time to time as determined by government. 1 am sure all members of the House join the government in weLcoming Mr. Lougheed in becoming involved in policies and programns to assist Newfoundland in pursuing a more prosperous future through the development of our energy potential. The government of Newfoundland and Labrador is very proud to have the honourable Mr. Lougheed as part of our advisory team.

Given his long association with energy matters as Premier of Alberta and his support, during the time, of this government's position on offshore, we are confident that his imput at this crucial moment in our history will he important and substantial for a more prosperous Province for our people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, on balance we welcome this announcement by the Premier.

We have a lot of respect for Peter Lougheed who has shown himself to be a great Canadian as well as L2760 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2760

being very knowledgeable in the oil industry. home," he said, "Come on home in a few years." But, Hr. Speaker, one question springs to mind. I wonder if this is a imitual. deal? In most arrangements there is a give and a take and I wonder if the Premier has the same arrangement made with Alberta in the next year or two when he will need to be looking for some work himself. I think it is also relevant to note just where Hr. Lougheed's expertise lies. It lies, Hr.

Speaker, in the exercise of good political judgement, something that has been sadly lacking on that side of the House so we can agree with the Premier that there is a great void that needs to be filled in the area where Hr. Lougheed has expertise. We can understand the Premier being so desperate as to go so far afield in order to find somebody to fiLl that void. With respect to the reirvneration, Hr. Speaker, I think that that would he money well spent though, in aLL seriousness.

If we look at the recent generous gift from the province of Alberta of Canadian encyclopedias announced recently, that gift alone, I think, is worth in the area of over $100,000, 750 of them, worth about $150 a piece at the retail level. So if you look at the benefits that Hr. Lougheed has had a hand in directing to this Province, Newfoundland is still well ahead of the game. I do not think that we would harp over the amount that is being paid. What I would say to the Premier is that he has held out for a long time now for the Newfoundlanders in Alberta the great expectation of their coming home.

"Come on I do not know how far back Hr. Lougheed' s Newfoundland's ancestry goes. I am sure it is back there though if we look far enough, it is back there a few generations ago, but I think the Premier should start looking now as well to Newfound landers who have left a little less long ago than Hr. Lougheed's ancestors when they went out Nest. MR. TOBIN: You are some jealous. HR. BARRY: The gopher brigade is acting up again, Hr. Speaker. However, the point should be made, Mr.

Speaker, that the general trend here is not a healthy one to date. 1 refer to the appointments made to the petroleum board, which we will have an opportunity to discuss more fully later. 1 was disappointed, I have to teLl the Premier Hr. Speaker, to see that the Premier did not appoint as chairman of that board someone who had more direct knowledge of this Province. I know you have to go and look for expertise. MR. SPEAKER (HcNicholas): Order, please! The hon. member has spoken for half the length of time as the Premier. Does he has leave to continue? HR. BARRY: I will just finish off.

I ask the Premier to start appointing a few Newfoundlanders, This Atlantic Accord was supposed to give the Premier some influence over the offshore. So far the federal government on the petroleum board has gotten the major influence. L2761 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2761

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have a few documents which I would Like to table and ask the Premier if he wou Ld indicate whether he would agree that there is any conflict of interest in the situation? The first document I table is a release of mortgage between the Bank of Montreal and Acharya Holdings Limited.

It is dated September 2, 1982, and it refers to a mortgage that is being released now, a mortgage that was originally made to secure repayment to the Bank of Montreal of all indebtedness owed to the Bank of Montreal by a company called Ben Nevis International Holdings Limited. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to table a map - MR. SIMHS: In Question Period? MR. BARRY: Yes, because it is the only way it can be done unless the Premier wants to answer all the questions without seeing the documents. Mr.

Speaker, let me table them all here together: I table a map showing the location of the land of Acharya Holdings, I table a certificate of incorporation showing that the Government House Leader's firm is acting for that firm - sorry, I should say was acting for that firm. I do not know if it is still acting - I table another document relating to Ben Nevis International - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wonder would the hon. the Leader of the Opposition pose his question. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have a problem here. i.e have questions that arise from documents that are in the public record. Mr.

Speaker, I file another document relating to Ben Nevis International Holdings Ltd. which indicates that a member of the Government House Leader's law firm is a shareholder of that company, and again the company has been incorporated by the Government House Leader's firm.

My question is will the Premier investigate, in view of the fact that the land of Acharya Holdings Ltd. is two pieces of land which the Outer Ring Road passes along by in Pippy Park, whether the Government House Leader participated in any decisions relating to government decisions as to the location of the Outer Ring Road, whether the Government House Leader disqualified himself in writing or otherwise from discussions held with respect to the Outer Ring Road, and whether the Premier considers it appropriate that the Government House Leader's firm would be involved with firms that are involved in land which government decisions are affecting.

L2762 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2762

HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will take a look at the documents. I have not had an opportunity to see them because the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) did not do me the courtesy of giving me an advance copy of this. He complains from time to time if we do not give him advance copies of things dealing with Ministerial Statements, which we try to do on most occasions, but on something like this, obviously the Leader of the Opposition considers it appropriate not to give us advance copies so that, therefore, I could give a detailed answer when I stand up.

But be that as it may, it does not make any difference. All I can say to the hon. member is, as I have said to the press and said to the people of Newfoundland over the last number of weeks and as I will continue to say, any time where the President of the Council (Mr. Marshal) or his firm has been involved in anything to do with government or a department, the President of the Council has always absented himself and stayed as far away from it as possible so no conflict of interest would occur.

I am sure the same thing is true in this instance, but I will still wait until I get copies of the documents and then puruse them and see whether, in fact, there is any truth to the allegations presented inherently, if not outwardly, by the Leader of the Opposition. But, as everybody in the Province knows, the President of the Executive Council, the Minister responsible for Energy, is a decent and honourable man and has conducted his affairs with government in a most open and honest fashion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: From the Premier's statements one would assume that his informants, Mr. Speaker, would have supplied him with all the necessary information to prepare himself for the delivery of an immediate answer. I wonder if the Premier would indicate what the position of government is with respect to the Pippy Park Commission still being in a position, as of Friday, of not being able to release information to the Opposition because the previously existing instructions of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) have not been changed.

Those instructions were, as confirmed to me in conversation with the officials of the Pippy Park Commission, that the Pippy Park Commission was not to supply information with respect to the names of owners of Land affected by decisions of the Park Commission, that any such request for information was to go through the minister. Does the Premier agree and has he adopted that policy? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I will check that out for the Leader of the Opposition and give him an answer in the next couple. L2763 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2763

of days. MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier is he saying to this House that because he accepts that the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), the President of the Executive Council, the member for St. John's East, is - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: Does he agree, Mr.

Speaker, that it is merely a matter of satisfying himself that the Government House Leader is well-intentioned, that the Government House Leader, to the Premier's knowledge, has always acted in a proper fashion? Does the Premier have no concern about the apparent conflict of interest that arise in situations where the minister is carrying on an active practice while participating in Cabinet actively, and does the Premier agree that the minister should be excused from compliance with the Conflict of Interest Guidelines as Laid down? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am as concerned if not moreso than the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry). In every case where the Leader of the Opposition has brought something forward, I have investigated it. And only after I have investigated it have I made a statement on it, and I will do the same in this particular circumstance. So, yes, I am concerned. But then I have to investigate it. I have not seen the information yet. I will have to get this latest allegation of conflict of interest and check it through, and when I have checked it through, I will give the hon. member an answer.

I am also investigating the Landlord and Tenancies Board as it relates to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition back in 1974. When I get the information on that, I will - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: If the hon. the Premier is saying that I acted before the Landlord and Tenancies Board while I was a member of Cabinet, then the Premier is deliberately misleading the House.

Now I would ask the Premier to say openly what he would like to say to the House instead of engaging in insinuation. Lay the documents - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMS: L2764 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2764

Bring out the documents, boy! MR. SPEAKER (HeNicholas): Order, please! MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, it is fair ball for the Premier to come and lay before this louse anything that shows myself in a conflict of interest in my operations as a member of Cabinet, or in any other capacity, in operating before boards, courts, or anything else, but it is not fair for the Premier to get up here and start dropping in a slimy fashion - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (MeNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! HR. BARRY: Again I invite him to clarify that little remark, Mr. Speaker, if he has the courage, that is.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, when I am ready. In the same way as I am handling the aLlegations that the Leader of the Opposition has again leveled at the President of Council, I will present the information when 1 am ready and not before. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, there is no point of order, it is a difference of viewpoint between two hon. members. The hon. the member for Twillingate. HR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) and it concerns an

article in The Globe and Mail, on Saturday, which brings to light certain problems which have occurred in hospitals because of faulty medical devices on operating tables. The report that is quoted in The Globe and Hail, Mr. Speaker, says that the Department of Health Bureau of Medical Devices estimates twenty to eighty Canadians have died in recent years as a result of faulty medical devices on operating tables. will the minister tell the House if there has been any investigation undertaken in Newfoundland hospitals to make sure that these devices are not being used in our hospitals? HR.

SPEAKER (MeNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. T,2OMEY: Mr. Speaker, 1 have not read the entire

article so I do not thInk I can comment fully on it. However, I can inform the member that, yes, we are in constant touch with Ottawa; they circulate all the Provinces, they circulate all Departments of Health, they give them all the details pertaining to dangers or hazards that are built into any of the new devices. They have made new rules and regulations in recent years, they have also asked all physicians In the country to report to the bureau any uiwsua I defects that they might discover in any of the equipment that is made. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Twillingate. HR. W. CARTER: In light of the allegation in the report, Hr. Speaker, that the Bureau is inadequate and is not properly reporting on faulty devices used in hospitals, can the minister tell the House if we have L2765 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2765

a program in this Province to ensure that dangerous equipment is either replaced or repaired or, at least, not being used in hospitals. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister for Health DR. TWOMEY: You have asked me a number of questions in one. All I can say is that we are informed by the Bureau in Ottawa if they have discovered or if they have heard of a discovery of any malfunction in any of the equipment used in the practice of medicine. I understand that each and every department of hospitals check their equipment on a regular basis.

Its the duty and responsibility of the operator to so do. if there was a breakdown in any piece of equipment, I doubt very iruch if it would he used by any of the operators of that particular piece of equipment. If it was broken, I am sure it would be repaired. If it could not be repaired, it would be replaced. MR. W. CARTER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary the hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: In view of the seriousness of the allegations contained in that

article and the fact that the Bureau, by its own admission, is not capable of properly monitoring hospital operating room equipment, because of a shortage of funds, can the minister tell the House if we have an inventory of just what hospital equipment is in use, the names of the manufacturers, and if maybe it could be related to some of the equipment that has been found to be faulty in other hospitals in Canada? DR. TWOMEY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge we do not have any record of any defective equipment in the Department of Health.

If there was a defect in equipment, it is the duty of that particular department to inform the administrator or the chief executive officer of the hospitals. If there was a break problem, I am sure that chief executive officer would bring it to the attention of the board chairman. If there was something most unusual, I would hope that I would hear about it. MR. FEJICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENI,JICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) who, I believe, is responsible for the Public Service Commission.

In view of the comments made by ministers who are excusing their partronage appointments by saying that they are temporary and therefore do not have to go through the competition and do not have to be advertised and so on, and since we have now learned that in the general service bargaining unit of approximately 3,900 general civil servants fully 1100 of these positions are now classified as temporary and therefore can be L2766 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2766

filled without competition, without advertising and so on, my question to the minister is, how many more positions do we have in the middle-management and higher levels which are not subject to the bargaining unit, and which we know very little about, that are also classified as temporary and therefore open to appointment without going through the procedures set up under the Public Service Commission? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Hr. Speaker, I would not know how many are temporary because each department has temporary positions. I would not have any idea.

But I would ask the hon. member if, when he went looking for his secretary, he went though the Public Service Commission? Is he lily-white? This is how these things happen. There are many temporary positions filled for three months, six months, and for Summer employment. MR. FWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. HR.

FENWICK: Without getting into debate on what is an appointment to a particular member, which is different from the general public service, my question now to the minister is this: With 1100 temporary positions which, it is my understanding, have been filled on a wholesale patronage basis by members opposite, with that being the case, with over 25 per cent of that bargaining unit we know of now being subject to arbitrary appointments, promotions and so on, would the minister now recognize that the Public Service Commission has failed dismally to protect the merit principle in the public service and would he now tender his resignation because he, as minister, has failed to uphold the principles of the Public Service Commission Act?

MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I think the Public Service Commission is to be commended for the wonderful work they are doing. For instance, if there is a need for thirty police officers, as happened recently, they will get anywhere from 1,000 to 1,200 applications. I think it is almost impossible to eliminate temporary positions. People retire from temporary positions after serving twenty-seven or twenty-eight years. It is impossible to eliminate these temporary positions.

They will he laid off and come hack in the Summer, and we will probably bring them back in the Winter. As for the hon. member, there are at least 300 clerk stenos listed with the Public Service Commission looking for jobs, did the hon. member go through the Public Service Commission and hire one of them? No. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary. L2767 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2767

MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FE1CK: I am trying to get some sort of a tag on it here. We have 25 per cent of that particular group of 4,000 employees who are not going through the Public Service Commission for their appointments, would the minister at least recognize that the entire procedure has now fallen apart and that the merit principle no longer is operative in terms of putting people into the Public Service? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public '1orks. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, the Public Service Commission was set up by this government to secure permanent positions and that is what it is doing. I can assure the hon. member that there is no skulduggery, no political play. The Public Service Commission, Mr. Speaker, will treat every applicant fairly, based on their qualifications. Now, I see the hon. member for Port de Crave (Mr. Efford) shaking his head. Poor boy, poor fellow, he im.st be a twin because he is too stunned to be one person. Mr. Speaker, that is what the Public Service Commission is set up for.

Sometimes even assistant deputy ministers are appointed through the Public Service Commission, whatever a minister wants to do to fill a temporary position or a permanent position. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public works. I wonder if the minister has been keeping an eye on the level of compensation which is offered to residents in Pippy Park when land is purchased by government, which is basically a forced purchase?

Because residents have been told they can improve their houses under certain strict conditions but they cannot get building permits, and they cannot sell, by and large, for the purpose of building, has the minister been keeping an eye on the level of compensation that is being paid and would the minister indicate, for example, whether in his opinion the sum of $18,000 for nine and a half acres of land almost in the heart of St. John's would be adequate compensation? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public 2orks. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, as I said the other day, Pippy Park is an autonomous body and they do their own arbitration and their own negotiations. I do not know what kind of land it was, it could be all hills or all marsh. It is my understanding they give clear, market value for the land when they have the money to buy land, or buy homes, or renovate. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 1.2768 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2768

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister agree that the fair market value principle is applied to fair market value with the Pippy Park restrictions on building taken into the calculation? Is that not the case? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of PubLic Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the hon. gentleman is trying to get at. As far as I know, the Pippy Park Commission negotiates expropriations and so forth for land, and negotiates for renovations to any home over there.

Any building or home in that area which requires beyond 50 per cent repairs must be bought or torn down. It is all done by arbitration, that is all I can tell him. MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: It is not under the Expropriation Act because the land has not been expropriated, and that is part of the problem. In many cases it is not expropriated, it is just a negotiated settlement with the owners who are Left there. They have a choice of either seLling or sitting on a useless piece of land they cannot do anything with.

Now I would like to table, for the minister's information, a recent decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. I wonder if the minister would indicate whether he is familiar with this decision? MR. YOUNG: With the Supreme Court of Canada, no. MR. BARRY: No. Now, the minister was just picking on the member for Menihek a moment ago about his lack of knowledge. For the minister's information, this is a decision which says that government - MR. YOUNG: Ask the question. MR. BARRY: I am asking a supplementary and asking the minister to comment. MR. YOUNG: You are giving a

preamble. MR. BARRY: Would you keep them quiet, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister indicate whether he has taken any steps to inform the members of the Pippy Park Commission since this decision was brought down, May 9, 1985, that they are not entitled, looking at this decision, in computing the fair market value of land, to use their own legislation as a way of depressing the price, that right now residents of Pippy Park have to sell land at a fair market value considering that nobody is abLe to build on the bloody stuff?

The Supreme Court of Canada in this decision, dated May 9, 1985, say that it is not proper for a government or a governmental authority to take this approach and I ask the minister, if he has not given any instructions, would he see that members of the Pippy Park Commission and other bodies that are taking land - by the way, the L2769 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2769

Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Aylward) might be interested in this as well. It would apply to the purchase of agricultural land, Hr. Speaker - to make sure that they do not try and screw down the price as a result of government Legislation which places restrictions on land before government buys it. I would like to table this. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I have no interest in instructing the Pippy Park Commission to do anything. They are an autonomous body.

If any party up there feel that they are not getting fair value for their land, I presume they will go to a lawyer who will put it to the courts and they will get fair value for their land and probably the lawyer will get paid for doing it. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: I would like to ask the minister if he has given the instructions to the Pippy Park Commission, that I was informed he had given, that no names of owners of land excluded from Pippy Park should be given to the Opposition?

Did he give that direction to the Pippy Park Commission, as I was informed, after the minister denied it in the House of Assembly? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of PubLic Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: I did not give instruct anyone on the Pippy Park Commission to not give the names of the owners of the land that was excluded to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry). Mr.

Speaker, my instructions to the Pippy Park Commission, as I said here the other day, was if anything pertaining to Pippy Park was asked they would answer, and if anything pertaining to Public Works was asked I would answer. Mr. Speaker, I gave CBC the names of the people who were involved with the land that had been excluded. To my knowledge the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has not asked me for those names in the House of Assembly. If he wants me to, I will gladly table the names. MR. BARRY: Would the minister agree to table those names? MR. YOUNG: Sure. MR. BARRY: Thank you. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I could have given him that when he got up here a week or so ago. MR. BARRY: No, you could not. I asked you for them last week and you would not give them. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, check Mansard. The hon. member never did ask me. L2770 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2770

MR. BARRY: You undertook to give them and you have not given them yet. MR. SPEAKER: The. hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. YOUNG: I will gladly table them, Hr. Speaker. HR. BARRY: When, before Christmas or after? HR. YOUNG: When do you want them, as a Christmas present or a New Year's gift? HR. BARRY: Ho, before that, if you do not mind. HR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon the member for St. Barbe. HR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power).

Last week, during debate in the House, the minister was discussing the Canadian Job Strategy prograirime and at that time he said, 'We will now be able to have a Canadian Job Strategy programme in Newfound land in which the training compotent will not be as rigidly enforced in Newfound land as we had planned in the beginning. Hr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister to explain what he means by, 'It will, not he as rigidly enforced, especially in terms of rural Uewfoirnd Land?' HR. POWER: Hr. Speaker. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I will be delighted to give the member some information about the Canadian Job St.rategy. As you are aware, this government has put over $7.5 million into job creation projects in the last six or seven months. We contributed over $2 million to the SEED programme, which is a Summer Employment Student programme, where many persons thought that that programme would not be accessible or available in NewfoundLand.

I saw some figures yesterday that said we created something Like 5,600 jobs and that we had 420 communities, most of those ruraL, small coimainities in many parts of Newfoundland, accessing $7 million of the SEED programme. We have also put $3.5 million into the Canadian Job Strategy, which we announced just a few weeks ago, and, I guess, at the end of last week we also announced that $200 million fund for fishermen projects for rural Newfoundland.

So what we are doing in the sense of job creation in rural Newfoundland is something which has never been done by a Newfoundland Government before, and we are very proud to be able to say, Mr. Speaker, that we have done that. What we have also done with the Canadian Job Strategy, to try and make it a better programme than the old Canada Works programrr, is to put some. eleirnts in it so that when a person goes to work on a Canadian Job Strategy prograimite that by a mere function of being on that project, and having learned something while on that project, that person then becomes more employable.

So we L2771 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2771

put in, Miss MacDonald and I, and the federal and provincial governments all across Canada have negotiated - form and if that is not suitable to the member, then I just do not know what else I can do for him. MR. F1JREY: How silly! MR. POWER: It may he silly to the member. If the member is interested in procreat ing Canada Works forever and a day, short-term make-work projects which do not in any way assist the long-term employment efforts - HR. FUREY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: A simple question to the minister.

We all know in Newfound land and Labrador how much money is in the Canadian Job Strategy prograimne. What we want to know is how much flexibility will there he for rural Newfound land and Labrador? They do not have a private sector. They do not have a corporate base. HR. SIiMS: Give him a chance to answer, boy. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister for Career Development and Advanced Studies. HR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I assume that there is no point of order. The hon. gentleman decides how he asks a question, and when I answer a question I will decide how I answer it.

Now, I am answering this, and if you do not want to listen you do not have to. But I will gladly give the answer in my The Canadian Job Strategy that we have put in has a training component in it. It is a training component whereby we are trying to make sure that persons have long-- term benefits from having been employed on a part-time short-term project so that a person receives some training. It is a very important core element. We have taken that step from the old Canada Works system to the new Canadian Job Strategy.

We are receiving applications from many, many parts of Newfoundland, and on many of the applications there is a concern about the training element. They do not realize that sometimes if you happen to have a fishermen's project, such as a wharf or a slipway, that there can be a training component there for carpenters or electricians - if you are doing something on a building - so that the mere function of having hired a person on that project as a carpenter they now have, besides having been employed for ten or twenty weeks, received some limited amount of training.

We realize the training component is not going to be major, but it should contribute to those persons who are looking for long-term employment by their being able to say on their record, 'I have some training and I also have some experience.' There is a situation developing in rural Newfoundland, the flexibility that I talked about last week, where in certain places there may be some difficulty in finding suitable training elements to a programme. If that happens, Hr. Speaker, I said we would be very reasonable, we would be very flexible. The committee that is L2772 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2772

in place from the Canadian Job Strategy of the federal government and my own department, in consultation with our Department of Fisheries and Labour and other groups, will certainly be flexible and reasonable. No applications will be refused simply because a training element is not there. The training is one part of it and we are going to get as many components satisfied as possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FIJREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. F1JREY: I would Like to table a letter in the House that I received Friday from the hon. Flora MacDonald.

In that letter, and I quote, Miss MacDonald says, 'In Newfoundland, however, where joblessness is for the most part - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is this a supplementary question? HR. FUREY: Yes, it is. MR. SPEAKER; Perhaps we could have it. MR. FUREY: I will give a synopsis of the quote. Hiss MacDonald basically says that in Newfoundland they will waive the training element in 10 per cent of the funds. Now, is that what you mean by very, very flexible? Because there is a lot of confusion in rural Newfoundland over this whole issue? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, HR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, there is no difference of opinion between Miss MacDonald and myself. We have discussed it on many occasions, we have made public statements on several occasions. We will accept applications in this Province. We will be flexible on the training component. We have $38 million to spend in this Province in the next seven or eight months. Over *20-odd million of that is for direct job creation. That money is going to be spent in ruraL Newfoundland.

If we can accommodate the training element which makes them better, we will do that; if we cannot accommodate the training element, then we will simply make sure that there are jobs available for those persons who need them. HR. FUREY: Can we take it then, Mr. Speaker, that you will overrule Miss MacDonald - you will be more flexibLe than 10 per cent? Is that what you are saying? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave. MR. SPEAKER: No leave. MR. DECKER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. L2773 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2773

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HR. MICKEY: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member f or St. John's East Extern. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to table the report of the Select Committee on Accommodations and Benefits of Members and, in doing, Sir, I want to make a short statement. I want, first of all., to thank members of the House for the opportunity of serving on this Committee. I want to thank the Premier and the Government House Leader (Hr. Marshall) for theIr initiative in establishing the Select Corurtitte.

As we all know, the Committee was born out of the debate between the hon. the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) with regard to adequate office accommodation and support services. Hr. Speaker, I know I speak for all members of the Committee in expressing my thanks to my colleague, the Minister of Public Works (Hr. Young), for the improvements which have been made in the existing accommodations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MICKEY: Mr. Speaker, it will probabLy be a couple of years before me'thbers are housed in a new Chamber.

I would make an appeal for additional space to be provided for the liaterim period - Hr. Speaker, we realize that any changes by way of renovations cost money and, in view of the fact that the Chamber is to be relocated, our expectations are not high; however, we believe that some improvements can be made at very little cost. Mr. Speaker, I believe this report is a very candid statement of what is and what should be. The adoption of the recommendations in this report can only facilitate more effective representations for all of the people that we represent.

Of course I commend all recommend at ions to the House for approval but I would especially emphasize four: One, an independent commission to review members' reanerat ion so that we may never again find ourselves in dealing with our own compensation package Recommendation Number 13. Two, the proposal to restructure the Internal Economy Commission to include private member participation - Recommendation Number 23. Three, the establishment of a standing committee known as Members Services Committee - Recommendation Number 24.

This recommendation would provide a vehicle for members to deal with their individual problems. Four, the striking of a select committee to examine the whole question of parliamentary reform in the Province - Recommendation Number 28. Mr. Speaker, time was when there was not a Question Period in this c*se, prior to 1972. &LUh there may be a need to revie' the committee system, nevertheless, It L2775 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2775

must be stated that this government has embarked upon a course of parliamentary reform. What is frustrating to members, it seems to me, is that we are not moving fast enough. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we are all winners if we speed up this process and bring about very necessary changes in the parliamentary process. FinaLly, Sir, I want to take this opportunity to express my thanks to a IL meithers of the Committee and to everyone who contributed in making it possible to produce this report within the Limited time that was available to us. I want, however, to single out two members of the Committee.

Firstly, I want to thank the hon. member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) who served on the Sterring Committee with the Vice-Chairman and myself. He co-operated in every way and contributed in a number of ways by accepting special responsibility. Mr. Speaker, last but by no means least, to the Vice-Chairman, the hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons), I owe a special word of thanks. As the Chairman my job would have been intolerable except for the contribution made by the Vice-Chairman. His co-operation with myseLf in providing the Leadership for the committee to get the work done was excelLent.

I have to single him out for a variety of reasons which time does not permit me to go into. It is sufficient for me to say, Mr. Speaker, that the cover design and the layout of report can be attributed, to the largest extent, to the Vice-Chairman. I thank him very sincerely. I commend the report to the hon. members, and sincerely hope that it will receive quick passage after both caucuses have had a chance to examine it. Mr. Speaker, also with the report is a copy of the proceedings of public hearings and I invite my colleague to make his comments. . SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join the gentleman from St. John's East Extern (Mr. Hickey) - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage by Leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SIMMONS: I thank the House for the required leave. I would like to say that I am pleased to be associated with this report. I thank the House for the opportunity afforded me to participate in the work of the Committee and I commend the Premier and the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) for their wisdom in providing for the striking of the Committee.

I commend also the initiative of the Leader of the Opposition in this matter. The task has been unwieldy but it has also been both instructive and enjoyabLe. In particular, it has been pleasant to work in a tn-partisan fashion with six colleagues. Especially I salute the role played by the Chairman, my good friend, the hon. member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Speaker, his unwaivering commitment to the Committee's objectives and his L2776 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2776

flexibility of approach have provided much of the chemistry which has facilitated the work of the Committee. I beLieve you will find that the committee's report is an important statement. If its recommendations are impLemented, and I trust they will be, the report will have a significant and positive impact on member's services and benefits and, in the process, will make the House of Assembly more functional and will facilitate more effective representation of the people of the Province, their legitimate concerns and their justified aspirations.

The title of this report has been deliberately chosen and I submit it is quite apt. If members are to properLy and effectively discharge their responsibilities as the people's representatives and as LegisLators, they irast have full and unimpeded access to the tools for the job at hand - hence the title, Tools for the Job. I am of the unequivocal view that we largely lack such tools at present. I am not alone in that view.

It is widely held in this chamber and the committee's public hearings demonstrate that the same view is widely shared by members of the general public, in particular, observers of the political scene. The report we are just tabling now proposes some important first steps towards rectifying the current situation. Hr. Speaker, having said that, let me also say that the report is not and is not intended to be a criticis-ni of anyone. It is rather a statement of what is now and what ought to be. The heart of the report is, in my view, contained in the recommendations that the gentleman for St. John's East (Hr.

Harshall) has already referred to relating to the independent salary review commission, the restructuring of the Internal Economy Commission and the proposal to establish a Standing Committee on He -ithers Services. The net effect of those three proposals, if implemented, would be to put in place a set of mechanisms for dealing, as the need arises, with matters relating to member's services and benefits while, at the same time, discontinuing the current practice of having members determine their own salaries. The immediate issue which precipitated the setting up of the committee, we should not forget Mr.

Speaker, was the quite inadequate office and secretarial provisions for members. The committee early in its deliberations considered presenting an interim report on the urgency of rectifying that situation without delay. Instead, the committee came to the view that all of the items addressed in the report need to he dealt with as soon as possible. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I make a plea for expeditious handling of the committee's recommendations. I realize that both caucuses will want to scrutinize and discuss the report.

I realize, also, that the government will want to study the report's ramification, including financial considerations. These activities will necessarily require some time. However, once these assessments have been made, 1 believe it would be in the best interest of the House and of members to take the appropriate initiatives to implement the package of L2777 tovertther 4, 1985 Vol. Xl. lo. 52 R2177

improvements purposed unanimously by your committee, whose membership includes both parties in this House and the hon. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick). to Amend Memorial University (Pensions) Act". (Bill No. 53) DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Any further reports by Standing or Special Committees? MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister for Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am not about to present a report but I wouLd ask for leave to table editions of The Newfoundland Gazette published between May 10 and October 25, 1985. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act to Amend the Department of Finance Act" (Bill No. 56), "An Act to Amend the Liquor Corporation Act, 1973," (Bill No. 55) and, "An Act to Amend the Financial Corporation's Capitol Tax Act". (Bill No. 37) Petitions These issues of The Newfoundland Gazette contain the subordinate legislation filed in the Registry of Subordinate Legislation between May 3 and October 22, 1985.

The statutes of the Subordinate Legislation Act requires me, as Minister of Justice, to lay before the House a copy of all Subordinate Legislations filed under that Act. Notices of Motion MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (llcNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of some seventy-six residents, partially of St. John's North, and, I must admit, partially from the district of Mount Scio. Unfortunately, myself and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) share a common boundary but that is about all that we do have in common. 1 think that this is part of a petition that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition intends to L2778 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2778

present as well, so there is a common interest here. I will read the prayer of the petition: We, the undersigned, as residents effected by decisions of the Pippy Park Commission hereby petition the House of AssembLy to ask that the government take immediate action to investigate and review the performance of the Pippy Park Commission and, particularly, its decisions relating to the exclusion of land from the Pippy Park boundaries, relating to the refusal of building permits, and relating to the inadequate amounts offered as compensation for land frozen, purchased or adversely effected by commission actions Hr.

Speaker, I happen to know that the total number of people involved, interested and concerned, and concerned enough to put their names to paper is in the order of many hundreds. I hesitate it is of the order of a thousand but it is certainly of the order of many hundreds of peopLe.

It is erroneously understood that onLy very few peopLe now live within the boundaries of Pippy Park and while there may be some truth in that, the actual truth is when you take the extended families and those effected by the Pippy Park, the number stretches into certainly many hundreds and I would say possibly thousands, without any risk of exaggeration. Therefore, I call upon the Pippy Park Commission, and specifically the government who supplies money for the Pippy Park, to encourage and ask this Park Commission to be a little more flexible. They have shown some signs of flexibility in the past.

They have as much land as they can possibLy use for the present, and I would urge that they be flexible and individual in their approach because there are a lot of people who are very, very adversely effected. They want to build. Their Laud is on the fringe of the park. It is not being used and there is no intention to use it in the near future. They are not proposing to put up a housing estate, but when you figure, Hr. Speaker, that housing lots within the city of St. John's go from a low of $30,000 to a known high of $110,000 per building lot, then you can understand the pressures that these people are under.

I would urge some flexibility and I would hope that the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry), who shares this particular problem with me, would be happy to speak and to support this petition because I know that from events that have gone on in this House already this afternoon that it is a concern of his. Since he is so badly informed of the boundaries of his own district - talking about PennyweLL Road East, a place that does not even exist - I thought it was high time that I got up and spoke about a place that does exist, where there are real problems and real people and, I hope, real solutions. Mr.

Speaker, I lay this petition on the table of the House and refer it to the department to which it relates. Thank you, very much. HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 1.2779 lovember 4, 1985 Vol XL to. 52 R2779

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's words are very interesting when he refers to my using Pennywell Road East. That happened to be the description by the residents on their petition as to where their road was and what they want fixed. I am prepared to take the word of the residents as to where they live, as opposed to the member for St. John's North (J. Carter). There is a curious story leading up to this petition which is relevant. The young lady who was bringing around this petition was very concerned because she is being told to tear down a new house which was build in Pippy Park.

She was carrying around a petition, which I have here, Mr. Speaker, and she came to the door of the me:mber for St. John's North and the member for St. John's North said, "What have you got there, a petition? Could I present that for you?" And she said, 'No, way.' MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: I do not mind a certain amount of hyperbole for effect, it is dramatic and perhaps it makes a point.

The lady in question asked me to sign the petition, which I did - my signature is on that petition - and I said, 'tot only will I sign it, I will present it or part of it." I would not want to present all of it because, Mr. Barry, the Leader of the Opposition, he obviously encouraged this petition. So I merely took two or three sheets to present for him. I could have taken the whole petition and presented it but I realized that the Leader of the Opposition has an interest in this matter, and I think a genuine interest, therefore I thought it was only right to throw the ball into his court. MR.

BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY; We have a serious difference of opinion here because the young lady came up and I think she was still shivering, she was still terrified, Mr. Speaker, because she said, "I told Mr. Carter that I wanted you to present the petition and he said, 'Well, if you will not let me present the petition will you let me present part of it,' and he took two of my pages." Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if that refers to the privileges of the House. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

BARRY: There is no point of order, presume. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion. I do not think there is a serious difference of opinion. MR. BARRY: No, it is not too serious, Mr. Speaker, but still, we have a L2780 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2780

situation here where obviously the member was concerned enough and embarrassed enough, I suppose, by the neglect of members on his side of the House that he felt that. he had to try and avoid the torrent of scorn and abuse that is going to he applied against him. When they see the wishy-washy approach of the member in presenting the petition it will just confirm the fact that they made the right choice in terms of who they wanted to present it, Mr. Speaker.

Since I will be speaking to my own petition on this matter in a moment, I will obviously support the two pages of the petition which they wanted me to present which the member for St. John's North - can I say intimidated the young Lady out of? MR. J. CARTER: Encouraged her. HR. BARRY: Encouraged her, negotiated away from the canvasser, Mr. Speaker. But it is a serious matter because what we have here, Mr. Speaker, are incidents where people are being asked to pass over land. I mentioned nine and a half acres in one case and $18,000 is the offer. Nine and a half acres of Land for $18,000?

That is all it might be worth if they are not allowed to build on it because of the Pippy Park Legislation but, Mr. Speaker, it is not fair, it is not morally right, and it is not legally right, since that Supreme Court of Canada decision, for government to be envoking its own legislation to push down the price, to get a cheaper price, when it takes land from residents in Pippy Park or under an argricultural land freeze. It is not entitled to use an agricultural land freeze to get Land more cheaply than otherwise available. So, Mr.

Speaker, I support the petition but I ask the member opposite to do more than merely stand in this House and make a few wishy-washy statements. The member should make enquiries as to who has gotten land exempted,. excluded from Pippy Park, so that they can take vacant land and go out and develop it into residential subdivisions and sell the lots? Who has gotten that? Why are these other residents being penalized? Why is there preference being shown to one small, group when hundreds do not receive this preference? I must coiment that the member has seventy-odd names.

I have something like 260 on the petition that I am going to present in a moment. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before recognizing the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I think I was rushed into calling Petitions at that time and I omitted to caLl Answers to Questions for Which Notice has been Given. So, if the House is agreeable, we will revert to that and then deal with any further petitions. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. BARRETT: L2781 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2781

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table an answer to the question which occurs as No. 13, asked by the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward). MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further answers to questions? Pet it ions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I would like to present a petition on behalf of 260 residents of Pippy Park, Mount Scio Road, Grove.s Road, Nagles Hill and the joining areas Mr. Speaker calling on government to take immediate action.

"We the undersigned, as residents affected by decisions of the Pippy Park Commission, hereby petition the House of Assembly to ask that government take immediate action to investigate and review the performance of the Pippy Park Commission." We have already suggested a select committee, Mr. Speaker. I assume the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) would support that type of an investigation.

He nods his head, yes. 'And particularly its decisions relating to the exclusion of land from the Pippy Park boundaries, relating to the refusal of building permits and relating to the inadequate amounts offered as compensation for land frozen, purchased or adversely affected by Commission actions." I would like to table this, and I would like a copy of just the front page, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me just read you out a letter. I will not mention the person's name. It is private correspondence. It is from a resident who is now being threatened by court action to have a house taken down.

It is a situation where, as often is the case, there is an existing structure, but it is an old structure on a piece of family land and a member of the family wants to renovate it. The rule is if your renovation exceeds, I think, 40 per cent of the value or - anyhow they have some forrmila there, I do not rerrmer exactly - they will not give you a permit to renovate because they are saying it is the equivalent of building a new house, Mr. Speaker. This is a letter from the General Manager of Pippy Park.

"Your application of 9 May 1985 to renovate an old structure on the above property was considered by the Commission. "I am instructed to inform you that while the Commission is sympathetic with your situation, it feels the investment of the amount of money necessary to ready the structure for occupancy as a dwelling and to meet City Council building standards would constitute virtually building a new house. "It is also not clear whether a new septic tank and disposal field would be required and, if so, whether the Department of Health would grant approval. As a result L2782 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2782

the Commission is not prepared to grant approval at this time." dealt with fairly in terms of the compensation they are of fered for their Land. I mention that just as an example. I have had dozens I suppose, literally dozens of requests since I have been the member for Mount Scia of people wanting assistance because they are being refused building permits in Pippy Park. I get another call from a lady a few days ago saying that ten years ago when herself and her husband wanted to build on her father's land, who has sixty acres up there, she was told, no way could she get a building permit.

She had to go out and pay $20,000 or $30,000 to buy a building lot miles away from her family homestead. Mr. Speaker, people should either be entitled to build on their land or get compensation, which is the fair market value, unrelated to restrictions that have been placed on it by the Pippy Park Commission. I would strongly ask this House and government to look at setting up a select committee, Mr.

Speaker, as we have asked for before, to investigate whether the Pippy Park Ccmmission is performing its duties in a fashion that is in the best interest, not just the peopLe of the city, but in the best interest of the people of Pippy Park as welL, the residents of Nagles Hill, Groves Road, Mount Scio Road and surrounding areas Mr. Speaker. I think there is a lot of injustice that is being done now to residents in that area and certain individuals have gotten the benefit of an exclusion. There are a lot of people being hurt by not being excluded, not only not being excluded, but by not being MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, unless someone else wishes on this side to reply to that petition, in which case I would give way, I would like to say a few words. 1hat I would like to say lies much along the same argument as the Leader of the Opposition is making, that for such a large area of St. John's or near St. John's to be in limbo in this day and age, I think, is a mistake and is most unfortunate.

As the Leader of the Opposition has said, some of these people up there have a lot of land, land that is frozen, land that is not intended for immediate use or even for use in this century as far as I can understand and it not as if these people wanted to start a housing estate or development, in many cases, as has been said, it is an older house that needs extensive renovations or perhaps a reasonably small new structure. I think that for the commission not to show more flexibility than it is showing at present is a great mistake. The Minister of Public works (Mr.

Young) has said, "''Jell, the Pippy Park Commission is an autonomous body." It may very well be an autonomous body, but if you look in the estimates this year, Mr. Speaker, you will see a total of $1,300,000 being set aside for L2783 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2783

this particular CorruTtission, 500,000 in operating expenses and 800,000 for capital expenditure. Therefore, if this House is going to vote monies of that order to this particular Commission I realize it raises a s-mall amount of money itself but the amount that it raises is pathetically small, less than 1 per cent of this total - I think that this House and this administration has a duty to instruct this Commission to behave a Little more - and I use the word advisedly - poLitically and politically in the best sense. That is to say, to carry out the wishes of the people.

I do not think it would be very difficult to find at least 1,000 people who are either directly concerned or indirectly concerned with this matter. I think 1,000 adult voices should he Listened to. I am sure that this is only the first of many such petitions that may come to this House if we fail to act. So I support this petition. I have no particular feelings about whether there should be or should not be a Select Committee but I do urge the government to urge the Commission to be more flexible in dealing with the general public. MR. GILBERT: Hr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. HR. GILBERT: Hr. Speaker, I have a petition on behalf of 193 residents of Ramea. I will read you the prayer of the petition: "We, the undersigned, citizens of Ramea in the district of Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir, wish to bring to your attention some depLorable situations with regard to the present ferry service of this island community. "On Wednesday, July 17, 1985, the ferry, Sound Of Isley was withdrawn from service for an announced two days mechanical repair. The ferry did not get back into operation until Sunday, July 21, 1985, five days after withdrawal.

We do realize and appreciate the need for mechanical repairs and are grateful and appreciative that the needs are detected in time and are attended to. But to leave this community without its scheduled service for five days without suitable repLacement is unforgiveable and downright insulting. "These are considerations for any season but are cirrtpounded in view of the fact that this is the middle of the tourist season. During this above mentioned period of time travellers were stranded on both sides of the route.

"We do also wish to give some consideration as to why a boat with such mechanical problems could not be taken to Marystown Shipyard where qualified personnel and equipment are available and we assume would have expedited matters instead of being taken to Burgeo to be serviced by workers from Stephenville. "We, too, are very appreciative of the fact that plans are in the making for a new replacement ferry but we all should realize that this is not good enough for the present. We do request that your department give some consideration to our travelling welfare." L2 784 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2784

Mr. Speaker, I received this petition in September and I was in Ramea over the weekend and I asked did they still want me to present this or had the problem been corrected. The people who originated this petition felt that it should be presented at this time because of the fact that the ferry was out of service at that time and was scheduled to go in for refit at the end of September. The last time that this ferry was pulled out for a major refit was in January of 193, almost two years ago.

I was taLking to so-me of the crew on this ferry as I went back and forth over the weekend and they told me right now this ferry could have a major breakdown at any time in view of the fact that the intake pipes are pretty well blocked. They have trouble with the generators and they know that there could be a major breakdown at any time, which would isolate the community of Ramea. Right now there are no plans to put this ferry in for an - MR. TULK: Annual refit. MR. GILBERT: It has been two years so you cannot call it an annual refit any-more, my colleague from Fogo.

It would have to he a refit every second or third ye-ar. So what we have is a serious problem. The point addressed in the petition first was that the residents of Ra-mea were concerned that the ferry was taken to Burgeo and the people were sent out from the Department of Transportation in Stephenville to do repairs to this marine vehicle when they felt that maybe the expertise was not there. It should have been handled by qualified marine people, They are now Living in dread because they realize the situation has been compounded In view of the fact that the ferry has not gone for refit.

As I said, I have talked to the crew members and they tell me right now that there is a problem with the pipes to the engine because it is a well known fact that mussels and things like that corrode the pipes Leading in and there is very little water getting into the engine. The engines are running hot and they tell ma that the seaweed is on the bottom of that vessel now is about eighteen inches long. And as you know the vessel is not very highly powered, it has 700 horsepower, they figure it should be 1,000 to 1,200 horsepower considering the winds that we get on that coast.

I would like to point out again that in every other ferry servIce that is operated by the provincial government the longest that they have is maybe a half an hour run. In this particular run, you are out in the Atlantic and you are talking an hour and a half to two hours, depending on the weather conditions down there. Everybody who has ever travelled on the South Coast knows what can happen in a day when you get a gale of a Southeaster or a Southerly on that coast. You are out to sea when you come out to the harbour at Ramea until you get into Burgeo.

There are serious problems and I think they should be addressed. This is the reason, Mr. Speaker, that they asked me to present this petition, even though this petition is late. It was received in September and we could not present it until the House opened. I wanted to check with the people to see if there was a L2785 November 4, 1985 Vol XL. No. 52 R2785

need, there is, and, indeed, it is a salient need, that this vessel he now taken in and repaired. I wou Id recommend that this petition be given the consideration it deserves. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DA.'2E: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MeNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise and speak to the petition presented by the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert). Mr. Speaker, 1 understand and I know that the hon. gentleman's father had considerabLe expertise in the operation of vesseLs around this Province.

I am not sure about the same level, of knowLedge in the hon. gentloman. However, I would just like to point out a couple of things. Mr. Speaker, our boat operations as well as all the rest of them that operate in Canadian waters are subject to CSI regulations relative to refit and the functioning of the vessel, the type of water that it is allowed to be used in, the numbers of people who are allowed on the vessel and the staff, engineering and safety requirements.

I would also like to point out and advise the hon. member, as I am sure he already knows, that we have an individual on staff now who is especially trained in marine engineering matters, and has been on staff for some time, and is the individual who is being used to service regu 1.ar repairs and so on on the vesseLs as mechanical probLems come into play. It has worked out very well. He is stationed in Central Newfoundland area and operates, I think, out of the Grand Falls office. So those are two matters. Mr.

Speaker, the particular vessel is the best sea boat that we have in the ferry system and it is very capable of plying the waters between Burgeo and Ramea. I have discussed the issues myself with the people in the area. We hare a Director of Ferry Operations who is in constant contact with the residents in the area for any questions relative to scheduling and some problems that we have from time to time. it is fair to say, Mr.

Speaker, that whenever people are Living on an island and they have to rely on a ferry boat connection to the mainland, there will be times when problems will occur and that transporation link will he interrupted for varying periods of time. Hopefully this year we will not have the same kind of problems with having to wait extended periods of time because we will have a swing vessel in place that will be able to take the place of vessels that are out for extended periods of time. But two or three days here and there is not unusual, Mr.

Speaker, and it is a sort of normal thing you have to expect when you are on an island around the coast of Newfoundland. Perhaps from time to time, Mr. Speaker, people who are on the end of road networks are subject to the same conditions relative to snow or washouts or other things. L2786 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2786

Transportation is not a 100 per cent guaranteed 365-366 days-a-year operation. There will be interruptions. We try to minimize them as much as possible. We have done a number of things, including the ordering of a new vessel to operate in that service. 1 am sure that the CS1 will have a look at the vessel. As a matter of fact, they have looked at the vesseL and do so on a regular basis and will instruct us as to an appropriate time to have the refit done. I will look into the matter, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to support the petition in the sense that myseLf as Minister of Transportation and other hon. members wouLd like to see as reliable a service as possible given to the people around the coast of the Province who live on islands as well as all other parts of the Province. We will all work together to see that that is accomplished. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to speak in favour of this particuLar petition.

You might wonder what a member from the great seaport of Gander is doing supporting a petition having to do with the ferry service in the Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, at a very early age, as a matter of fact, the first time I went to work, I deliberately chose to work on an island off the Coast of Newfoundland, that great island of Twillingate. At that time the island was isolated with no causeway and there was very limited service to the mainland.

I appreciate the situation where coituminities on islands need as reliable a ferry service as is possible, I think perhaps the issue goes a little beyond the ferry service. I think it points out the need for more planning, for greater concern and perhaps for even greater administrative ability and concern when it comes to the individuals who live in the extremities of our Province. The ferries are simply an example. They serve as a lifeline to the island. Without the ferry system, obviously, these people would be truly lost and would have a very inconvenient way of life. MR.

DAWE: If they depended on the former Liberal government they would not be on the islands and we would not have to worry about them. MR. BAKER: The member refers back to previous Liberal administrations. I wonder when he is going to stop referring back to previous administrations and start accepting responsibility himself for what has happened in the last ten or twelve years in this Province. HR. DAWE: (Inaudible) federal Liberals - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. BAKER: It points out, Mr. Speaker, the absolute necessity for an adequate plan for this ferry system from L2787 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2787

the point of view of the servicing HR. SPEU(R: Order, please! HR. BAXZR: - and the constant upgrading of these vessels. Thank you Hr. Speaker. It points out the need for a regular maintenance programme and a regular replacement programme just like, for instance, with a fleet of trucks in the Department of Transportation, with their road equipment and so on, they obviously have a thought out and well developed plan for replacement because you see all kinds of these vehicles going around in ever increasing numbers.

They obviously have thought of this and have planned for the replacement and the continual upgrading of the vehicles. The same concern should be shown for the ferry system. I know the minister has said and it has been pointed out that there is a maintenance programme. and that there is a rep laciment programme and, indeed, there have been some new ferries brought into service recently and there are plans for a new ferry service on this particular run.

However, I think that where possible these things should be done in such a way as to provide the absolute minimum of inconvenience to the people living on the islands. I would suggest that perhaps the planning in the past has not been of this nature. The planning has been such that there is a replacement programme and we have hired somebody to Look into it and to see about maintenance and so on but there is no real thought given to the best service possible being provided to the people on these is Lands.

I would suggest that it is high time that we ensure that adequate service he provided to the people who Live on the islands to ensure that there is no interruption in the ferry service unless it is absolutely unavoidable, through weather or some other contingency. I think the minister that the ferries operate subject to CSI regulations. I would suggest that the minister not just do the minimum as is required through CSI regulations, but that he consider a little more than the bare minimum that is recommended.

The minister says that there is not 100 per cent guaranteed operation and I agree with him, there never can be when it comes to transportation. However, I would suggest that we should try to get it as cLose to that 100 per cent as possible. I would, Hr. Speaker, support the petition that was presented by my coLleague. Orders of the Day On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions. Hr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! Shall the resolution carry? MR. DECKER: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for the Strait L2788 November 4, 1985 Vol Xl. No. 52 R2788

of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: I have before me Bill 26 which concerns some 56 million. I have been looking at this particular bill and I notice, Mr. Chairman, that it does not explicitly say whether or not any of this money will be spent on the office of Chief Protocol Officer. I am a bit concerned about this, Mr. Chairman, Maybe the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) might be good enough to enlighten me. You see, the Minister of Finance described the Premier's office to us a few days ago and I believe the words he used, Mr.

Chairman, were that before the $750,000 or the *1 million, whatever the case was, was spent, the Premier's office was a pretty tatty affair - was that the word the Minister of Finance used? AN HON. MEMBER: Tacky or tat€.y. MR. DECKER: Tacky or tatty. To me, Mr. Chairman, it was very distressing because he explained how dignitaries coming in to see the Premier were forced to sit down out in the corridor and that, in order to get past those dignitaries, there was a danger of tripping up and falling down in the corridor. Mr.

Chairman, this to me describes a terribLe state of affairs because I can visualize Jotti enyatta, sittin8 down with the big tiger skin he used to wear wrapped around his neck and I can visualize Idi Ainin with his complete uniform on and all his ribbons. I can see those two big men sitting down in the corridor and the poor cook trying to serve them their native dish. To me Mr. Chairman it would be a very bad reflection on Newfoundland for this to happen. For two men of their stature to be sitting down in the corridor and not enough room for the cook to get out and give those men their meal. Can you imagine, Mr.

Chairman, what the letdown, the insult would mean to this Province? This would hit The Globe and Hail. Those two great men visiting Newfoundland, forced to sit in the corridor and the cook could not even serve them a meal. I see not one cent of money is set aside for the Chief Protocol Officer. This to me Mr. Chairman is a tragedy because I blame it on the Chief Protocol Officer that two men of their stature should have to sit in the corridor while the cook trips over their feet as he tries to serve them a meal because there is not enough room in the Premier's Office. It Is an absolute disgrace, Mr.

Chairman and I would ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to make some money available to the Chief Protocol Officer. I want to speak for a few moments on the Chief Protocol Officer. This Province has suffered a tragic loss, Mr. Chairman. We have just been deprived of the services of the greatest Protocol Officer that the Province ever had. He was a credit to the job, Mr. Chairman, he did a great service to this Province and he was allowed to resign that position and his resignation was accepted. It was a disgrace. It is a reflection, Mr. Chairman on this hon.

House to allow that man to vacate that service and that his resignation be accepted. L2789 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2789

Nobody noticed it. Nobody stood up in this House. I was waiting for somebody to make the motion that we would give this man best bshes and that we wou Id send him on his way and that we show our sorrow. HR. W. CARTER: It was debated by the U.N., by the way. HR. DECKER: Thank you, I am glad it was debated in the U.N. Anyway, Mr. Chairman it is too late now. We have lost the services of this great Protocol Officer and now we have replaced him with another Chief Protocol Officer. I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, if we have made the right choice.

You see it is a very, very important position to this Province because we do not want people tripping over dignitaries feet when they sit in the corridor to see our hon. Premier. We do not want that to happen! The responsibility for seeing that that does not happen lies squarely on the shoulders of the Chief Protocol Officer. I watched the new Chief Protoco I Officer on television a few nights ago, Hr. Chairman, and he has the white hair. It seems that in order to have this position he has to have white hair. He has the qualification that he was a Tory who has been defeated. But, Mr.

Chairman, he was smoking a cigarette. The Chief Protocol Officer, who sets the standards for Newfoundland, sitting down on television, smoking a cigarette. Mr. Chairman, I think it was utterly disgraceful. As my friend points out, he was just as bad looking as Renee Levesqué. It was an utter disgrace to this Province that our Chief Protocol Officer was sit on television and smoke a cigarette. Hr.

Chairman, I am going to make a few suggestions and I wouLd he quite willing to support him if the Minister of Finance was prepared to ask for another million dollars or so for the Chief Protocol Officer because we have to give this office all the dignity that we can muster up and give it. The thing that struck me, Mr. Chairman, about the protocal officer was this, he was just an ordinary man. I remember some years ago when the Lieutenant-Governor visited a community in my district. It was when the hon. Campbell MacPherson was the Lieutenant-Governor. He came to the town and he wore a three-piece business suit.

I heard some ladies talking about the Lieutenant-Governor and one said, "My but, he is just an ordinary man. He just had an ordinary suit of clothes on." Hr. Chairman, this is what is happening to the position of Chief Protocol Officer. We should not allow a man of such stature, a man with such a position, to he going around wearing an ord mary three-piece suit of clothes, Hr. Chairman. 1 wouLd suggest that we dress him up in a gown.

Now surely we can put out an aware, like we did for the Newfoundland flag, like we would do if we wanted to design a flag, let us call tenders and let us allow for someone to come up with a design of a gown for the office of Chief Protocol Officer in this Province. I think it would lend some dignity. What are we talking about, Mr. Chairman, a measley $100,000. Surely there must be some more defeated candidates around - L2790 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2790

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. DECKER: No, to design the gown. We have to design it, Now I am not talking about a black robe like Mr. Chairman wears, I am talking about something which can lend a distinguished air to this hon. position. This is what I am talking about. MR. W. CARTER: The Lord Mayor of London has a uniform. MR. DECKER: That is the idea. Let us call tenders. I am sure we will find some more defeated Tories who can put in some designs on this and come up with the idea of the kind of gown that this hon. man should wear as he goes about his duty representing the Province of Newfound land. Maybe, Mr.

Chairman, a wig. Why not make a series of wigs. If there is a Liberal minister ftom somewhere in Africia visiting, let him wear a red wig, if there is some Tory from England visiting let him wear a blue wig, or an NOt', what would he wear for HOP? AN HON. MEMBER: Orange. MR. DECKER: An orange wig. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You see this is like some of the clergymen. They wear a different colour stole for Easter and a different colour stole for the season of the year. Our Chief Protocol Officer should be nothing less! He should have a different wig for every season, Mr.

Chairman, and a different wig for every visiting dignitary. This wouLd lend some substance to that position. Let us do away with this nonsense of having an ordinary many filling the position of Chief Protocol Officer. It is a disgrace up on us, Mr. Chairman, and it is a disgrace on the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) because he did not put another million dollars or so In there to go along with making this office worthwhile. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. member's time has elapsed. HR. DECKER: I was just going to get to the wives, Hr. Chairman. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a pleasure to speak to this bill and to see where all the money is going. I have a list of stuff here I would like to talk about. The first thing I noticed when I looked at this was Labour and Manpower - $340,000. I would like to know whether or not it is going to Labour or is it going to Manpower because we ask questions sometimes and they tell us it is the Minister of Labour and then they tell us it is the MinIster of Manpower - separate departments.

I would like to know where that money is going, who it is going to or what it is going to be used for? Labour and Manpower Is a very interesting portfolio, or two portfolios or whatever they have over there. TI wouLd like to see it being used for some purposes to improve the empLoyabiLity of L2791 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2791

individuals. I am hoping that somebody over there will tell us which departments will get this money and for what reasons. I also noticed Nunicipal Affairs is being allotted a fair bit of money there. I am hoping that down the road the Town of Stephenville is going to be allotted its proper funding in the 60/40 progra-rrune which it was denied so aptly by this administration this Summer. I am hoping we will get t he same treatment as my coLleague next door in Corner Brook who got over *1 million. I am hoping that Stephenville will get the same type of good treatment in the up and coming 60/40 programme.

There was a great, great disappointment in that riding and a lot of other ridings around this Is land and in Labrador about the allotment of those funds. I am sure the administration on the other side will certainly look at their procedures for allotting that money and do it in the proper manner. Talking about the Department of Labour and Hanpower again, and referring to the new federal job scheme, for exampLe, ten per cent flexibility was announced. I do not beLieve it is the proper amount of flexibility to have for this programme.

We have peopLe out there now who do not have any work and no income who are single able-bodied individuals and cannot obtain any employment through the federal government right now because these new programmes are being introduced and there was no flexibility being shown. SO I would like to see the hon. inister of Manpower to Labour make sure that the federal minister and the department do something about this flexibility. I think that there should be, at least until this new programme starts to take some type of positive effect, more flexibility into the programme for the up and coming 1.inter.

We are going to see a very harsh one if this trend keeps going. Ten per cent is not enough, especially when this programme is going through so many probLems right now with applications, etc. I think the federal minister shouLd make sure that Newfoundland's concerns are taken into account. I have many, many constituents of mine who are having trouble finding employment and have no income. I have made a number of representations to the federal government on that. I am hoping that they will do something on that in the near future. I also noticed here some money for Development.

I would like to make a number of comments on that to see what this money is being used for or what it has been used for. I have made a number of moves to try to promote the Town of Stephenville in a number of ways, and trying to find out different funding schemes through the Department of Development. I am very concerned about how that money is being used and how effectively it is being used and whether or not this Province is being promoted in the proper manner. I am hoping that those funds will be looked at and scrutinzed very carefully.

Also, as I look here I see money for Executive Council, Finance and Development. I attended a meeting of the Youth Advisory Council in Stephenville over the weekend. It was a very good meeting. One of L2792 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2792

the reasons I am going to mention that is because I think the Youth Advisory Council, which is under the Department of CuLture, Recreation and Youth, should he having more monies allotted to them by the provincial government which, at present, is not doing very well. They had a very good meeting there the weekend and they have some good positive contributions to make to Newfoundland and Labrador to the Provincial Administration. I would ask the Provincial Administration to start funding that group properly and give them enough funding to do their mandate.

They have expressed many concerns over the last couple of years that they be given more appreciation, in a sense, and funding to do their job because they have not been abLe to do it. They have had very miniiixm budgets. I would like to see the provincial government do something along those lines. Transportation. There is lots of money there, *12 million-odd. MR. TULK: What is all that for? MR. K. AYLWARD: I would love to know. I have a road in Stephenville, down towards the mill, that needs to be done. I am hoping that the Minister of Transportation ((Hr. Dawe) will look into that. MR.

DECKER: It could be for all the trips around the world this Summer. MR. K. AYLWARD: Oh, it could have been the trips all around the world, I do not know. I would Like to see the Minister of Transportation, whom I have talked with on that matter, to look into it. We have the big Thitihi-Price mill, in Ztepheuville with a road to it that you can hardly drive over. I think the provincial government should Look at trying to allot some dollars, at least some partial help to the town of Stephenville and the mill, to help the infrastructure of the town there, the local area.

So I am going to be looking for money for that and I am sure the provincial government is going to do that, of course, considering the 60/40 programme this Summer. I am really looking forward to an equal allocation of moneys and looking forward to Stephenville receiving at least an equal amount of dollars. I imist talk about Social Services for a moment. I have constituents, single, able-bodied people, who are calling Social Services, and the regulations state that they cannot get any work. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Arts Council. MR. K. AYLWARD: The Arts Council. I will get to that in a second.

There are people out there now who do not have any income whatsoever and they are being told, 'You cannot work' - women are being told, 'You cannot work because you are a single person.' AN HON. MEMBER: Shame. MR. K. AYLWARD: I have been talking to a number of people. They have been told the only way is to go and live with somebody or go and indulge in other activity. L2793 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2793

AN HON. 1EMBER: Shame! Shame! MR. K. AYLARD: Now, whatever the policy or the regulation, if it promotes something like that, I think the provincial government should look seriously at trying to do something about it. I am going to leave it with that comment but I will come back to it. The Arts Council, which was just pointed out to me, is another issue here. There is no money in there for that because (inaudible). MR. K. AYL1.JARD: No, there is no money in there for that and you will not see any. The recent appointment of six new people to the Arts Council is wonderful.

I think these people are well qualified and so on. The problem is - AN HON. MEMBER: Are they all Tories? MR. K. AYLARD: 2ell, I do not know what their political affiliation is but I am sure they will do a good job. I have no problem with that. I think the provincial Tories can do a good job. I am sure they will do their best. But the Arts Council are not going to be able to do their jobs because their mandate is not able to be enforced. They do not have even enough money to keep their office going. They are expected now, with six new members, to try to fulfil their mandate again.

I have asked the minister already what the mandate was and whether they had been promoting it or if they had been getting advice, and he said, "No, we have not been getting any advice." I am going to be asking him also why he appointed six new members to the Arts Council when he is not even going to listen to the Arts Council. I do not know what their role is anymore. I am becoming confused. In the indate they have, which is estabLished legislation, they are supposed to give advice. On the other hand, now, they have not been giving advice.

We have just had six new members appointed, so I have a lot of questions on that. I am hoping the minister will be able to give me some information on it. I notice it is not there, but I am sure he is promoting his cause within Cabinet to expand the mandate of the Arts Council, to get it fixed up and to have proper arts funding on this Island. So I would like to see positive, concrete action being taken on that in the very near future. I think I will stop here to give members opposite a chance to respond to these things and to other things members on the other side have tried to do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. SUiMS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. C AIRMAN: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. L2794 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2794

HR. 51MHZ: I think, in all fairness, Your Honour perhaps forgot, but there have a Lready been two speakers on that side and none on this side. 1. think it is appropriate that -members on this side also be given an opportunity to speak. The traditional practice is that it be one for one. There have been two on that side. I wish to say a few words in the debate and perhaps Your Honour did not consider that. MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for St. Barbe, MR. FUREY: I think there was ample time for the minister to stand in his place and respond. You clearly saw the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) stand. Nobody else had stood and, then the minister stood. So 1. think there is no point of order here. MR. TULK: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TIJLK: Mr. Chairman, it has probably been a tradition in this House to move back and forth across the House, but they have been so slow and tardy getting up over there today that I know the Speaker did not see the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms).

Neither does the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands have the right to tell Your Honour who can be recognized in this House. We know he is a past Speaker, and I have to force myself to admit that he did a fair job, but he has since got out of that position and he should not be trying to tell. 'four Honour what to do. Now, Your Honour has clearly recognized the member for BeI.levue (Mr. Callan) and the Minister of Forestry will just have to sit there, if Your Honour Is to rule this place and, like a good schoolboy, wait his turn. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the Minister for Forest Resources and Lands. MR. 51MHZ: All I want to do is point out, for the record, that there were people on this side who were prepared to speak and the hon. members opposite were not prepared to recognize the traditional practices, I would not want to hear them yelling and bawling. "Nobody on that side is getting up to speak!' because there clearly were people over here prepared to speak. HR. BAKER: Hr. Speaker, on the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Gander. HR.

BAKER: The hon. minister, in making his point, is quite correct, it is normal to go back and forth across the House. However, obviously there are very many speakers on this side who are very anxious to participate in the debate. The minister says that there were people on their side trying to get up and speak. In my way of looking the word people means more L2795 Noventber 4, 1985 Vol XL Ho. 52 R2795

than one. The minister was very tardy in getting up. There were three members on this side that stood up before the hon. minister stood up. I would suggest that there really is no point of order here. You recognized the first person you saw and the minister was just a bit tired and lazy and slow in getting from his seat. MR. CHAIHItAN: To that point of order, I recognize the tradition of the House but 1 did recognize the hon. irrJer for Beilevue first. So the hon. the mittber for Bellevue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: We will let him go next. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Hr. Chairman.

Actually, I would have gladly taken my seat and bowed to the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) but I am glad that your honour recognized me because I have to Leave at 5:15 on other business. That is the only reason that I did not decline in favour of the member for Grand Falls. Mr. Chairman, in making a few conznents to this resolution where the government is looking for *56,000,000 to grant to Her Majesty Supplementary Supply. It makes one wonder. Mr. Chairman, last week Tuesday here in the Legislature, when the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Barry) was taking up most question periods and not only the question periods because there were so many points of order and so many points of privilege that we spent most afternoons for about a week talking about possible, not alleged - the Premier called them allegations but they were not the alleged - possible conflicts of interest. As far as the Leader of the Opposition was concerned, he was asking questions and there seemed to be the possibility of a conflict of interest. Anyway, the Leader of the Opposition agreed with the Premier and the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) when they said that we zhou Id move on to other matters that had to he dealt with in Legislature. The Leader of the Opposition agreed and the Liberal caucus agreed. But, Mr. Chairman the next day, the first thing that was done in this House was the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the same hon. gentleman who is sponsoring this Bill here today, got up and announced the closure of three fish plants: Harbour Grace, Old Perlican and Port de Grave.

The next day in caucus, perhaps members opposite already know about this because apparently they have a bug or that is what they say - we do not know what kind of bug it is but we have an idea - but in caucus the next day I I said, "You know what I should do today? I should get up and say that the opposition has decided to change our minds. We want to renege on that wish that we granted yesterday.

If this is the kind of thing that the government wants to get on with, making announcements that they are cLosing down three fish plants one day and something eLse another, then perhaps we better not let the government get on with the other business that they are talking about at all and lets talk about the other sorts of things that we dealt with for about a week". Mr. Chairman, this might be as L2796 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No. 52 R2796

good a time as any. The month of March in this Province has long been known and referred to by our grandfathers as the long cold hungry month. Mr. Chairman, the month of March is still long and cold if we are to judge by the head Line in the weekend paper talking about the poverty in this Province. Why is it, Mr. Chairman, that here we have the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) looking for $56 million "For Granting To Her Majesty ... And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service." Mr.

Chairman, is it not reasonable to assume that if this Province, in all of Canada, is number one in the poverty line, should we not also expect that this Province should also have a Premier who is the Lowest on the salary scale, who is the lowest in many respects, if the poverty rate is the highest in Canada? Should the people of this Province not expect that the man who Leads the government in this Province, that he, at Least, should also be Living in not elaborate conditions like we see on the eighth floor and we like we saw at Mount Scio house? A. *150,000 fence was put around there.

No sooner had the job been finished then the Premier moved out? I hear it was *150,000. I do not know, it may have been more or less. But no, Mr. Chairman, what we have here is the people of this Province, the taxpayers and the voters, the people suffering through the long, cold, hungry months, not only of March, but of April and May and all the other months in this Province.

Even the ones who are unfortunate enough not to be able to get any employment at all, the people who live in poverty, even they, even the ones who manage to get a few weeks or VIC benefits and then, of course, they manage to get ten or twelve weeks of work in order to qualify for ULC live in poverty. 1 talked to a Lady this morning on the phone from the town of Dildo actually. She got three weeks of employment this Suimner in the former Nickerson Plant, which is now under the umbrella of FPI. Mr. Chairman, this is strange.

Perhaps the Premier or perhaps some other minister opposite can explain why it is that FF1 have fifteen plants up for sale but among them is not the useless plant in South Dildo, the plant that over the past five years has only provided two and three weeks of employment, has only been open for two and three weeks, the former Nickerson Plant, ultra-modern, millions of dollars spent on it within the last five years, Mr. Chairman. Here it is, it is open for two or three weeks in the Spring to process cap un and then the doors are shut. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! The hon. meither's time has elapsed. MR.

CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, I will get back to it some other time. Thank you. Now we will see someone opposite. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for logo. MR. J. CARTER: If the hon. member for Fogo would give way. HR. TIJLK: Of course, Mr. Chairman, let him go. L2197 November 4, 1985 VoL XL No. 52 R2797

HR. CHAIRRAN: The hon. member for St. John's North relevant. Do you wish to rule on that point of order? MR. J. CARTER: I must apologize for being slow to get on my feet but I did not want to let this opportunity pass. I could not help but hear the eighth floor being considered for discussion and the reputed opulence down there. It is nothing at all compared with the accommodations that the Opposition office now enjoys. I would invite any fair-minded person to go down to the Opposition Office and just Look.

You wouLd need to wear dark gLasses because if you saw the opuLenc.e down there, the very expensive furniture. MR. DECKER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): On a point of order, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: I believe this is the same speech that the hon. member presented some time ago. I wonder would he prefer for us to just dig out our Hansard and read it. It would be a lot simplier than having to take up the time of this House. MR. J. CARTER: To that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the hon. member for St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: Mr. Chairman, the sentiments, I will admit, are similar to the ones I made a little while ago but I think they bare repeating because they are very, very MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, there is no point of order. MR. J. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to stress that if anyone thinks that the government is spending any great fortune on the renovations on the eighth floor, the eleventh floor, or the fourteenth floor for that matter, they should go down and look at the 'estern part of the fifth fLoor, that part that is set aside for the accommodations of the Opposition.

The accomndations are very, very generous indeed. It is true there was some slight problem with the roof but I believe that has now been fixed. In the meantime, the carpeting on the floor, the furniture and the furnishings, the expensive art work on the walls, all point to extreme opulence. I think that it sets a very bad example for a party that purports to be the alternative government.

They set a very, very bad example and the public of Newfoundland, who wander in, and I suppose they make certain members of the public welcome, those members who wander into the Opposition Office and see the extraordinary amount that must have been spent to create such opulence, must wonder what will happen if this crowd ever get hold of the government. You have not seen anything yet. Remember, the expenditure that was made on the eighth floor was rendered necessary because of the way the wiring was done and the way the building was built in the first place.

This building was L2798 November 4, 1985 Vol XL No, 52 R2798

not built all that well. I can remember when it was built, the steel structure is very slight. It is hardly able to stand the weight that is already apportioned to it and perhaps it is a good thing that the House of AssembLy is going to moved downstairs or may he out of the building altogether because the structure cannot stand too much. It is not a well built building by any means. But the Opposition offices at the present time are extremely well appointed and it is very poor forum for them to suggest that other departments of government are getting the lion's share.

I think it is quite unfortunate and I think the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) will agree, that a large proportion of the Supplementary Supply that he is looking for has the name of the Opposition Office on it. Far more was spent on it even this Suimuer than was necessary and I invite any fair-minded person to go down and have a look. They would be shocked and disgusted. HR. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker. HR. C AIRMAN (Greening): The hen. member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, my good friend from St. John's North (Hr. J. Carter) just made my day.

I was having a fairly frustrating day, you understand, but he made my day. I was reminded again, as he stood in his place, that one of the sacred responsibilities I perform on behalf of the Newfoundland people is to hold his hand, babysit him, and otherwise keep him occupied here as long as we can, because as long as he is here, at least we know he is not inflict