<, Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, February 27, 1973 SPEAKER, THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 14

February 27, 1973, !ape 352, Pagq l -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m~ Mr~ Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! PETITIONS: MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of the Great Northern Penir-csula.

Sir t this must be one of the ireateat petitions that was ever presented before this House and I will read the prayer of the petition since it is so eloquently stated~ !'To the honourable Speaker and members of the honourable House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador; this petition of the undersigned citizens of the Great Northern Peninsula, humbly showeth that the 'Northern Peninsula Highway no. 73 is the essential means of communication available to the 35,000 New-foundlanders who live on the Northern Peninsula.

"That every citizen must use this road for access to medical services and all other social facilities including schools, that the greater part of the food consumed by these citizens is moved by service transport which uses the road, that the greater part of the goods consumed by and used by these citizens is moved by service transport which uses the road, that no part of the road is adequate to serve the ·purpose for which it is now being used, that this causes great inconvenience to the citizens in addition to increase in the cost of living and substantially reducing the level of social senrices available to them and that the implementation of the paving and reconstruction programme throughout Newfoundland in the past few years to so improve roads elsewhere that your petitioners believe it is now time to implement such a programme for the Northern Peninsula Highway. 11 Your petitioners therefore pray that work begin immediately on the re.construction and paving of the Northern Peninsula.

Highway and your petitioners further pray that the work begin in 1972 11 (this petition was organized in 1972 but I did not get an occasion to present 1085

21 February ;ti, 1973, Tape 352, Page 2 -- apb it before this time) 11your petitioners further pray that the. work be carried out in segments distributed along the Great Northern Peninsula 1;--, such a manner so as to benefit all the citizens equally during the construction period anrl your petitioners further pray that the Government of this Province assign to this project a priority~n Now, Sir, this petition is supported by approximately eight-four hundred people in sixty-four Communities in three Provincial Districts of St. Barbe North, St. Barbe South and White Bay North.

There are actually 7,354 signatures and 1,030 other citizens indicated their support -in other vays. Sir, this petition is also endorsed by the Corner Brook Chamber of Commerce~ The Deer Lake Chamber of Commerce, The Humber Valley Development Assod.ation and the Mayor of Deer Lake. Sir, this highway would reduce the cost of living on the Great Northern Peninsula dramatically, it would reduce the hardship experienced and the expense incurred in 10.86

February 27, 1973 Tape 353 PK - l the provision of normal services and would increase the economic development of the Great Northern Peninsula tremendously.~articularly in the area of tourism it is the gateway to Labrador, L'Anse aux Meadows and to the IGA centre in St. Anthony. Sir~ the Great Northern Peninsula. Highway is the life line to the people living along that coast.

This is, obvious now at this time of the year when the highway is completely blocked and we have an emergency situation existing on the Great Northern Peninsula Highway,and such a highway ~ould probably offset the problems that are existing there at the present time. I could go into the details of the emergency situation that exists there at the moment. I asked the honourable Minister of Highways if he would declare a state of emergency there last Friday. in Friday's sitting.

That has not been set as far as I know and the helicopter was flying over the building the other day as I walked in through _the door and I think I would like to suggest to the l),onourable Minister of Highways that we might jump aboard that government helicopter within the next day or so and go up there and take a first hand look at the situation. Sir, I give this petition my every support. I ask that it he laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. HON. E. M. ROBERTS: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION) t Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman for St.

Barbe North does not need to detail it, but that petition was signed by almost every citizens in almost every community in my constituency of White Bay North. That in itself, Sir~ is enough to bring me to my feet in support of it because it does represent the very strong feeling of all of the people who live in the communities from Englee, Bide Am, Conche, ~.ain Brook and Roddickton all the way to the communities north of St. Anthony and St. Anthony itself~ Even if it were not for that expression, does the honourable gentleman have the numbers of people from my constituency? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 1087

February 27, 1973 Tape 353 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: It is 3,000 or 4,000 or 5,000 citizens, Sir, in White Bay North who signed that petition. Even if it were not for that I would be supporting this petition wholeheartedly because to me the Northern Peninsula Highway, the highway running from Deer Lake north to St. Anthony running down through Bonne Bay and along the Straits and down into White Bay North, that road must become the priority of the road reconstruction and paving programme of the government of this province be that government formed by the party presently in poYer or be it fanned by any other party.

The Northern Peninsula Highways, Mr. Speaker, is the last great stretch of road on the island part of this province that has to be rebuilt in many parts, and paved in its entirety. A's of today,with the exception of one mile of pavement in Raleigh and 5.2 miles of pavement around the Cotnmunity of SL Anthony and in each case through the populated parts of those aettlements,there is not one inch of pavement north of Deer Lake. When one crosses the Humber River it goes up through Reidville, crosses the old bridge, across the Humber River, it heads north, it is 300 miles to St.

Anthony, Sir, there is not one inch of pavement. There is a DREE contract,! believe McNamara or the successful contractors to pave approximately twelves miles between Port Saunders and the Port au Choix, Hawkes Bay Area. !_ think it is twelve miles, is it? It was in the a~reement negotiated by my friend for White Bay South. I think the road is nearlv readv for pa.vinR but no blacktop has actually heen laid. p.s the Minister of Highways confirms, no blacktop has actually been laid, it will be laid this summer I guess or this spring. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the people on the Northern Peninsula have waited patiently and gladly, they restrained their enthusiasms. They have waited while the road along the Burin Peninsula was rebuilt and paved. There are about as many people living on the Burin Peninsula, Sir, 1088

February 27, 1973 Tape 353 PK - 3 as there are on the Northern Peninsula. They wa:ited while n-.any other. trunk roads, the road to LaScie la largely paved thanks to - AN HON. MEMBER: Baie Verte - MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry to Baie Verte, thanks to my friend for White Bay South. The road to Gander Bay and running out that way has been paved. The road to the Isles ia being rebuilt and paved again more work to be done. But the Northern Peninsula Highway, Sir, is the last great etretch of road. What the people in rny conatitutency ~ant, what the people in St. Barbe North want, what the people in St:.

Barbe South I regret the member is not here today, I am sure what the people in Labrador South want is to have that road rebuilt and paved, Sir. That is the prayer of this petition. I support it wholeheartedly. Mr. Speaker, a word of advice to the government;Ottawa will pay a large part of the cost of that road if only the government ask for it and negotiate iL They will pave the road from Deer Lake to the northern edge of the National Park.

Now with their decision to go ahead at LtAnse aux Meadows,the culmination of six or seven years of negotiations, give them additional reason, they have accepted the responsibility for the Port Saunders, Hawkes Bay Area. lf the government can only get organized and get cracking Ottawa will give substantial help towards that rand, Sir, just as they helped on the Buriil Peninsula Road, helped to the inconsiderable extent of one hundred cents on the dollar. So I hope the present minister, Sir, will get moving on it. if not their successors most assuredly will.

Let me just add, Sir, the petition is very timely at this time. I will be asking some questions on Orders of the Day but the Minister of Highways I know is aware of the increasingly serious situation caused by the increasingly serious and continuing snowfalls in the northern part of this province. He may have a statement he c:an make nm;. if not I hope he will either on Orders, Sir; or in a responsible question~ The problem 1089

February 27, 1973 Tape 353 PK - 4 continues to get more serious. This petition just points out the importance of the road and the fact now that people have been isolated for four, five and six days and they are beginning to run out of some fuel supplies, they are beginning to run out of some of the less essential food supplies 1 only proves the importance of a road~ The time has come, Sir, and I think this road should beRin immediately. I would like to see it begin this summer. I support the petition fully~ HR~ H~ MARTIN: Mr.

Speakert I vould like to add my voice to that support given by the member for White Bay North for the petition presented by my friend for St. Barbe North. I think as we have heard that most all of the other trunk highways in the province have now been paved and it is high time that we got around to looking at that one on the Great Northern Peninsula. From my point of view and the point of view from the people of Labrador South there are a great number of reasons why we should.

In the first place~as has already been pointed out,the cost of living in that area and extending beyond that area into Labrador the cost of living will be made considerably less. The mail service will be improved, greatly improved. There will be a big boost to the tourist industry I am sure with the new emphasis being placed on tourism by this government that such a highway will boost the tourism industry to an extent where it is going to become one of the major industries in that part of the province.

As far as we are concerned on the other side of the Straits,it is going to give us the boost that we need for our own industrial development but I think it should go beyond that too~ There is a feeling that somehow or Other the two parts of the province are not tied quite closely enough together and the paving of a highway that would permit better communications and better travel between the two parts of the province would go a long way 1090

February 27. 1973 Tape 353 PK - 5 toYards eliminating a lot of that feeling of separatism~ I think the fears of the last couple of days up in that part of the province have also pointed out the necessity of taking a harder look at this whole idea of hi~hways and highw~y maintenance. Ue have had the road closed in my part of the district for the last couple of weeks effectively closed and I will not lay the blame at the feet of the minister here today bee.a.use it is n problem thrtt: has been going on for a number of years.

I think the problem is in itself, is not only for highway construction 1but for highway maintenance and clearing not enough of the budget has been cut out for that. Up in my area we have not had a highway practically all the year. So while I support this petition today T would like to inform the members here present that it is not just the cost of puttin~ the blacktop on this highway that we have to consider. it is the whole sociological atmosphere that is going to be changed in that part of the province and especially ofi the northern tip of the peninsula and in my district. HON. DR. T.

FARRFLL: (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMM!nlICATION): Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words in response to the honourable Leader of the Opposition when he asked for the report on the conditions prevailing on the West Coast today. I know·everybcdy will understand when I say that the conditions in the Western Area of our province and in Labrador are the worst possibly in recorded weather history. I am not quite sure of that, but I am pretty close.

There is no way of controlling or opening the roads at the present time~ I will have later in the day for the Leader of the Opposition a more detailed report, this one 1091

February 27, 1973 Tape 354 Ill-! when it appears at nine thirty describes pretty well the conditions as I describ~d them vesterday -where a lot of the roads were closed and ploughs were not able to operate~ The conditions are frir,htfuJ. I would like to mention at this time as well that I have made a commitment to the honourable the member from Labrador South that he and I t1ill be going within the next couple of weeks,possihly around the middle of March, to Labrador South to have a look personally nt the conditions there. I think that ts a fair statement. Thank vou.

I would like to present this complete report later. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I voul<l like to support the petition preBented by my colleague, the member for St. Barbe North. Sir. ahout four or five years ago when the House of Commons Committee on Transportation and Communications was travelling across Canada they came to St. John's and at tht:i.t particular time I was responsible for transportation jn the previou~ administration. We adopted 1 at that timet 5ir 1 as a part of our nolic:v, the paving of the Great Northern Peninsula hut we went further than that, 'fr.

Speaker, we also adopted,as part of our r,olicy, a nermnnent link and between the Island of Neufoundland and the Hrdnland part of the nrovtnce. then, Sir 1 to complete the job, a hfghway across Labrador as a continuation of the Trans Canada Highway. We claim, Sir, that you should be able to drive from St. John 1 s to N"ontreal or to New York on pavement all the wny nnd right across the Straights of Belle Isle .. Now a year or so a~o.

Sir, I suggested that a tunnel or a causeway be built across the Straights of Belle Isle, that seemed to capture the imagination of people r:ir,ht across Canada because of the unique uay that I suggested it be built. I suggested, Mr. Speakeri that it be built ns a make-work nroject. 1 do not see any - well I do see some justi fie.at ion in paving the Great Northern Peninsula up as far as St. Anthonv t Sir, but I think it would be a mistake just to stop at St. Anthony. I think we shoul<l go right across the Straights of Belle Isle~ I nm not sure whether I agree 092

February 27, 1973 Tape 354 rn-2 with the honourable the Premier or not that n road ohould be built from La.brador West to the Province of Quebec. I think the peonle of Labrador would be more inclined to lean tovards the Mainland part of Canada. While that may be all right~ f-·fr. Speaker. ns a temporary measure to get the: oeople our of isolation for a year or two or three: years, I do not think it is the renl nnswer.

I think if Labrador is going to be of anv benefit to Newfoundland, Sir. thnt we have to make it a pnrt of - we hnve to link the Island of '.\c.wfound­ land to the mainlam7 ra:rt of the province either by n tunnel or ;:i causeway.

In this clay and ape, Sir, when the Govcrnn;ent of fannda has adopted the princinle of make-work progrnmrr:es - And 1 1mde:rstnnd right at the moment there is a team of engineers from !'ternori al Fn:l:versitv down doing a fensibility studv on the currents and the t:ldes and so forth in the Straights of Belle Isle rmd there is also, Mr, Sneaker, a team of engineers from 'the Bedford Basinj from the Bedford Institute,down there doing a studv. MR. t.fARSHALL: This petition does relate to the roads on the Cr-ent Northern Peninsula and I think that the.

Redford Basin is a 11 ttle bit far removed from the Great Northern Penimrnla. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is all tied in with the naving of the Great Northern Pen:i.nsuJa and if the honourable member for St. John 1 s East will just be a little bit patient, Sir, I wi 11 show him how it is tied in. So, I would p,o further than the prnyer of the petition. 1·fr. Speaker~ I think we should not only pave the road right up the Great Northern Peninsula but establish a permanent link between the. Island of Newfoundland and the mainland and build a road right across Labrador as a continuation of the Trans Canada Highway.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Was the honourable minister going to speak on this other matter? On this present matter, I am going to introduce another nne. 1093

February 27, 1973 Tape 354 rn-3 MR. MURPHY: !{r. Speaker, if I may make one or two rern.arks with reference to this petition because this has been a hardy annual in this House for a great rmmbe.r of years. This one where there was not a foot of pnvement and also :Jt. Mary 1 s district which were tJtCtwo districts I think that were never paved.

Each time I had pleasure when on the other side to support this: petition and I do so now be.cause of the fa.ct of knouing the condit1.ons of the people. living on the Great Northern Peninsula ,md more especially I think the neoole in Labrador South~ I had been Minister of Labrador Affairs for a short time. I have very much nleasure in supporting this petition and I see now that this petition is timelv nerhaps because of the fact that the federal government is becoming verv actively engaged in this particular are.a due to L1 Anse-au-'1eadows and the new Gros "forne Park and also in the Port au Choix area there.

I nm sure that this government in its wisdom, and it has lots of it will do an awful lot more than \ we a.re onlv one year now) 1n the twenty-three yea.rs that the other government were operating ,­ surel Sir. I feel When they do I would like for them to have a hard look, whoever is concerned with the St. Barbe ferry there. Well, I have pictures taken of the 11:'ench end in Quebec where the ferry terminates and also the Newfoundland end. I am sure ( and I have discussed this with the r,iember,J thnt it is a great tradgedy just what has happened on that coast.

Sneaking of tourism, I hope that if we do develop touri.sm that it will be for Newfoundland and not for Quebec as Bas happened in the case of the other government. Mr. Speaker. I have very great pleasure in supporting this oetition and I am quite aware of the great problems that the member for St. Barbe North and White Ray North are fac:lng. I mean, they are in districts that have been neglected for twe.ntv-three years.

I am sure that the ""-finister of Highways vill help when the time comes nnd the money is ava:Uable, when we re.coup some of the monies that have heen sn-uande.re:d during the past twenty-three vears, we will certainly invest :it in the 1094

February 27. 1973 Tape 354 Great Northern Peninsula. HR. WELLS: Mr. Sneaker, I ask leave of the. House to present a net:i tion from 140 employees of the Hospital for Chest Diseases vhich is situated in the di.strict of St. John 1 s South. The petitJon has not a prayer as such hut is rather a review of the situation t }fr. Sneaker. These employees exnre:ss considerable concern about the decision cf the r;overnment t.o close the HosnJ tal for Chest Diseases.

Part:i.cu1arily, they feel that the location of that facility,although the fact1.itv itself vns somewhat dilnnidnted. they feel that the location Prts such that nerhans consideration nur,ht to have been given - pe.rhans 1-t wns - tn renni rinr, the f nd. l i tv because it uas idea1.1y suited tn the treatment " tuberculosis. They al.so drn.v to the nttentfon of the House the fact thnt the regional treatment of active tuherculosis cases has been tried in Newfoundland and leaves something to be desire:J .and feel that there should be a central facility in the nro.vince for the threatment of tuberculosis.

Thev would ask the minister and they do ask the government and the department to review these matters and feel thnt perhrtpc: the deciston mav have heen made to hastilv. Thcv sav that there is an acute shortage of reedicnl nnd prescribed fnci1 ities at present in the Province of Newfoundland and thev feel that the amount of space which is made available at St. Clare's llosnital for the threatreent of tuberculosis is not adenuate and also that it does not provide the out-of-doors snace which :r understand is usual in the threatment of tuberculosis.

They feel that there has been a lack of communication between the deonrtment and these employees. They would ask the department to review that whole matter so that anv changeover and re-routing as it were, of these employees to other facilitien could be accomplished with the minimum of disruption. In sununation of the petition which is renlly the praver of the petition, Mr. Speaker, they feel thnt the decision and its implications 1095

Fe.b:rnary 27, 1973 Tape 354 rn-s must be re-examined and reviewed toward the speedy and sntisfactorv settlement for the good of all. They request that in view of the: seriousness of the 1' .B. problem. in Newfou;idland and the political ramifications such a decision will beprovinceuide and that this matter will be tabled and dJscussed at the earliest meetin!? of the House. Mr. Speake.ri a few general remarks: The sanatorium situated in St. John 1 s South has progressed~ 1096

February 27, 1973 Tape 355 for a great many years been the principle facilitv for the treatment of tuberculosis in Newfoundland. Happilv tuberculosis is not now the killing: disease in Newfoundland thnt it onc.e wns nnd that is due obviously in no small measure to the work that is being carried on in this institution. It was an excellent site. Pr. Speaker, a ve.rv pleasant and a very worthwhile site for r.rentme.nt of tuberculosis.

Jll - l The only difficulty was, and this is re.copnized by everyone, that the builrHng was allowed to dilapidate to such an extent thnt rain came into it, wind blew throu!!h it nnd it var. almost fallinf! dot,rn and something had to be done n:nd the government nhviously took the decision of relocatinf! thnt facility to the new winp; of St. Clare's Hosnital. It is rather sad thnt in a new :ind mo<lern institution such as the T.B. facilities will go to that they cannot pet out of doors apparently to the same dep:ree and the e'Tlployees :11so are concerned that there may not be enour-h space allocated in St.

Clnre 1 s for the adequate treatment of tuberculosis. So all these matters. I feel. Mr. Speaker, ought to be exanined in the light of this petition and the representations made by the Minister of Health and the derrnrtment concerned and accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition he tabled and forwarded to the department to which it relates. HON. DR. A. T. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH) : Mr. Speaker, I feel I must rise and make a few general remarks on behalf of government regarding the petition presented by my colleague, the hon. member for St. John's South.

I can appreciate the feelings of the staff of the sanatorium and I can assure them that the decision to close the institution was one that was taken not at all lip,htly. A review of the situation indicated that the buildings were built during the second world war as temporary buildings and then had the habit as many temporary things do of becomint peunanent. They have from a physical point of view completely outlived their usefulness. The buildings had been condemned 1097

February 27 1 1973 Tape 355 J}i - 2 hy build.in)! inspectorst been condernerl hv the fire mnrshal heinp, vcrv unhnppv vith the wooden structure. 'T'he cost of renovation is comp1ete1v out of nrormrtion to the value. The opernting cost is aprrox::!matclv $1.,100 1 000 per year. The maintenance on the physical plant is anvroximately $200,000 annually and so it will indicate from this that the physical plant is nnt inn 1:,tate th:-it one woul<l wish to keen inpatients no matter what their disease or whr.t thetr illnest..

I should sny too that the modern trends in tuberculosis therapy indicate that cases nre now being treated in general ho!'lnitals and with the modern therapeutic drugs that are being used ,the danrcrs of infection thnt existed down through the years be.fore these drur,s hec.ame onerativc no longer works. It is accepted medical practice now that tuherc:ulosir; can be treated in a general hospitnl. I would point out that a brand new sanatorium Y.:ts built in Corner Brook I think and opened about the mid 1950 1 s nnd hecause of the loitering incidents of tuberculosis in the early 196f1's this institution was closed.

T never understood whv instead of closing the Corner Rrook Instituion one did not move the pntients from St •. Tohn 1 s Sanatorium to the new facility at Corner Tirook hut he that as it rnay,it was not done hut 1 indicate to you that thP Corner Brook Sanatorium was closed somP eip;ht or ten years a~o when the incidents of tuberculosis thankfully was fa11inp-. I would also indicate that I had dven to my collearue. the memher for St. John 1 s South,a week or so aiso.stutistics on what is happeninp to the employees at the rw.natorium.

He has the statistics now, I do not,but this indicates that at the oresent time a month or two before closing over sixty per c~nt of the staff are being absorbed elsewhere nnd that it is the opinion of the department who are in communication with NAPE on this subiect that the balance would be looked after. i believe that the hon. member has made this known to emnloyees of the snnatorium. 109-8

February 27, 1973 Tape 355 There is just one final point that I would like to make. I would be very happy to meet a delegation any time to review the whole situation, to discuss with them any points they wish to but I hope that nobody would believe that this was in any way a political decision to close the sanatorium. Previous Ministers of Health hnve had the prob1en of the building condemned, the question of patients in unfortunate physical conditions in there and I do not think anybody could accuse the government of having taken a politicnl decision.

It is a decision taken with humane interest as the basic reason and I think that we should he grateful to St. Clare 1 s thnt we can now close this unfortunately physically substandard institution, T would be very happy to meet and discuss this with them at any time. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if 1 may say a word or so about this petition! Let me hep-in by saying I sunport it wholeheartedly and without any reservation whatsoever.

I have a copy of it here and while I do not propose to read it all, Sir~ I think that after the remarks of the hon. gentleman, the Minister of Health, a few words from me and perhaps the readinp; of portions of the petition, the relevant portions,would be in order. Now I as a fonner Health Minister an aware of sone of the reasons at least which led to the decision to close. the. sanatorium. It is not a new idea.

It was certainly canvassed time and time again during m.v period in the Department of Health and when the member for Burin was the Minister of Health I assume it was cunvassed too and indeed I suspect it goes back through the years. It is not a new idea but what seems to have happened here, Sir) and judg:in,R from the wording of the petition itself, and the copy I have is not signe<l by anybody but I am told that it is a true copy of the petition to which 140 employees, that would be just about every employee at the hospital, have signed their names, the force. of this petition, the message of it, Mr.

Speaker, is that there has been apparently a serious 1099 ,w - 3

FebrU,'lTV 27, 1973 Tape 355 breakdown in communications between the minister and his officials here and the staff of the sanatorium. JM - If- The miniBter said, nnd I think 1 arn ouoting him, Mr. Speaker, I think I nm ouoting him correctly that he did not see how anybody could call this a nolitical decision. Well I prefer not to take a position one way or the other on that right now except to point out thnt the people who have sip-ned this petition do feel it was a political decision.

The second paragraph, Sir, of the petition says: "The undersigned take as a mattc.r of urgency to brim, to your attention the highly undesirable and unfavourable situ~tion which presently exists at the hospital for chest diseases, (the nnne for the sanatoriu,"

n) resultinr: from a politicnl decision nadc hy the Minister of Health in October durinp; dedication cemoniPs nf .St. Clare's Fosoital.n This announcenent was startl :tnr nnd upst't.ting. It gives some reasons there: nwe have felt it necessary to point out the foregoing in view of the fn.ct that it is felt that a nroper or thorour:h investip-ntion was not made prior to the minister's decision. t-!e feel it was essentially a political decision hastely made without propc-r regard to its implications or ramif:icntions,n Now 1 Mr.

Speaker, the point I an making -ts not that this: was or was not a political dec:ision 1 I hove no wav to know. I was told at the tine St. Clare's was open that the first knowlcdr,e St. Clare 1 s had of it in detail was the minister's speech. Ar,ain I nm not sayin~ it is true. I&~ saying what I was told by sources that I find usually very reliable but I will take the minister's word whatever it is on it.

The point about this is that the people at the sanatorium. 140 employees of the govern.~ent, 140 civil servants, 140 qualified nurses and perhaps doctors and labratory technic.ans and aides and nursing assistants, the whole staff of the sanatorium feel that they have not been informed and to the extent necessarv and desirable they have not been consulted. They are worried about their .iohs. 1.100

February 27, 1973 Tape 355 JM - 5 Now I do not know when the petition was written~ Sir, as it is not dated. It may have been before the member for St. John's South communicated the information to which the minister referred. It may have been since but I do not know. But the pctitioni Mr. Speakert speaks eloquently that the staff of. the sanatorium feels in very real tenns, that they have not been dealt with fairly or properly or decently. Now I know not whether they have been dealt with properly, I just do not know, Mr.

Speaker, hut what I do know is that these people feel that way and I think it is incunhent upon the r1inister and his officials, the member for St. John I s South. if he wishes to interest himself since the facility is physically located in his constituency 1101

February 27 f 1973 Tape no. 356 Pagel - MRW some of the workers probably live there. Many others live in other parts of the city or even outside St~ John's. (Whoever else wishes to get into it). The point is that these people feel that they have a con.rplaint, Sir. They have also made some serious statements but they are not charges. They do make allegations. They make them openly and honestly and honourably. I think they should be looked into and I think the Minister of Health at the very least, Hr.

Speaker, should come back. to this House shortly. if not by his estimates I then on his estimates and be prepared to deal at length with this to allay these fears. If mistakes have. been made let them be set straight~ If no mistakes have been made, then let the minister make the necessary statement and allay the fears~ The fears are there, Sir. The petition - I do not know if it is a petition or not~ I suspect in a legal sense thnt it would be difficult to class it as a petition.

But certainly it is a statement by a number of citizens of this province directly of concern to this House and the governmenti a statement that they are not being treated properly and so it should properly come before this House and properly be dealt with. I do support the petition, Sir. HON.DR, A. T, ROWE (Minister of Health): I ber, your indulgence, Mr. Speaker. There are two points: With reference to the Leader of the Opposition and the question of St. Clare 1 s not knowing about this until I made the statementJ it is not correct~ I have had meetings with Dr. Brownrigg and Sister Fabian at St.

Clare. 1 s on this question of the movements. I uould like to have this recorded that we have had meetings. The second point is that I will be quite happy when, during the estimates, further information will be brought back to this House. Thirdly, I would be quite happy to meet a delegation from the sanatorium to discuss it in detail~ I am sorry that they feel that communiciations have gone off the rails* I have been assured by the meetings that have taken place between the department and NAPE that things were working out satisfactorily. I am surprised? because I made 1102

February 27 i 1973 Tape no~ 356 Page. 2 the statement back in September and it is only now, the end of February, when we are coming to the point of moving that this petition ia presented. _MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker 1 I do not want to deal with the medical aspects of this petition. I want to deal with the employment aspects of it. About a week ago when we were dicussing the amendment to the St.

Clare's Mercy Hospital Act in this House, I was the one who brought the. situation out in the open, smoked it out, dragged it out of the minister, that there was something happening at the sanatorium because I had been hearing rumours for weeks that there were going to be lay-offs at the sanatorium as a result of transferring the patients to St. Clare's Mercy Hospital. Tue minister told me at that timei in reply to my question, that negotiations were going on betveen NAPE and his department to try and place all the workers at the sanatorium in alternative employment. Later we heard from the member for St.

John's South, when one day (t think it was two or three days following that discussion) I s«w the member on television - I do not know if this is how he communicated the information that the minister gave him to the employees at the sanatorium but if he did it via television or radio~ then I would say that that was the wrong way to do it. He should have sat do-..rn and discussed this directly with the employees of the sanatorium TI1e honourable memhet nods,yes,that he did* Well 1 will take his word for it.

I watched him very carefully on television as he told us about ho'W all the employees down there we.re going to be taken care of. M far as I can gather, Sir, sixty employees at the old sanatorium are going to be displaced. Is that a correct figure? About sixty employees will be displaced and 1 think the member said that over a period of a month or two (he just shrugged his shoulders, brushed it off) or a couple of months, three months, it may take a little longer, they may all be placed in jobs, the sixty who will be displaced in the beginning~ MR. WELLS: It was not sixty, as I recall the figure in doubt.

I do not have 1103

February 27. 1973 Mr~ Wells. Tape no* 356 Page 3 that paper with me. It was fifty-two. Of the fifty-two who have not been placed (five or six refused employment; five were pensionable age) of the fifty-twot thirty were domestic staff and there were four or five each of stationary engineers, cooks, seamstresses, categories of that sort.

It was felt by the department (I think this makes common sense) that of the thirty on the domestic staff, that it would take only a matter of weeks to find places for them in other institutions and likewise in the three or four specialized categories, with four or five persons in them each. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is -what I said, somewhere in the vicinity of sixty employees would be displaced and there would be no jobs for them when the sanatorium closes.

But over a period of a month or two, three, four months or maybe a year, all the employees of the sanatorium will be placed in alternative employment. Now, Sir, I think myself that the fifty-rwo employees, if that is the correct figure, who will be displaced when the sanatorium closes are too many. The.re are too many, Sir~ and I think the Minister of Health should make a more strenuous effort. AN 110!1. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. NEARY: Well that might be a good idea to keep the sanatorium open, according to that petition. The honourable minister should read it.

It might open his eyes for him~ I think that is too many employees to be displaced, Sir. I would like for the Minister of Health to ensure this House that a more strenuous effort will be made on the part of his department to place all the employees of the sanatorium in alternative employment in the event that the minister and the department still go ahead, after reading that petition 1 with transferring the patients to St~ Clare's Mercy Hospital. HON. DR. T. C. FARRELL: (Minister of Highways): Mr. Speaker, I was asked for 1104

February 27, 1973 Tape no. 356 Page 4 Mr. Farrell a: detailed report on weather conditions in various µarts of the island. If the honourable members would wish me to give it to tlwm, 1 will table it for them. Whatever their uishes are, I would be delighted to do so. Anyway the Trans Canada Highway is open to Port aux Hasqu:cs. On the West Coast, the

section between Gallants ;:md Steel Hountnin Road, kncrwn locally as South West Bog, is experiencing: heavy drifting and is causing some interference with traffic A pl;:rw is pa.troll:ing this area to keep it open, In the Port amt Basques, Rose Blunche area~ winds are still reported at sixty miles per hour, with heavy drifting and whilst plowa are operating in this area, traffic is unable tc move freely because of the drifting conditions. All roads in the. Codroy Valley and Robinson I s Area are open but narrow. All roads on the Port au Port Peninsula are open. 111e road from Stephenville Crossing to St.

Georges via the Gut Bridge is blocked and it is expected to be open Ly night- fall. All roads in the Bay of Island Area are open as are the roads to Reidvi1 le, Cormack and Howley. On the Great Northern Peninsula the road is open from Deer Lake to the junction of the Roddickton Road but roads beyond this are blocked with heavy drifting and plows are w~king little progress. The road to Roddick ton is open but the road to Conche is blocked, The road to Hampden is open as well as the road to Sop 1 s Arm and Jacksonis Arm. This road is ve.rJ narro-w.

On the Baie Verte Peninsula plows are expected to have the road to Fleur de Lys and the rond to LaScie open by nightfall. All other roads on the Baie Ve.rte Peninsula are open but narrow. There is no late report from Southern Labrador i:mt;'stormy conditions prevail in the morning i:u:::iurs~'which indicate very little progress would be made until the high winds die down~ On the Connaigre Peninsula there has been no change since this morning. Very stormy conditions are 1105

February 27, 1973 Tape no. 356 Page 5 reported on the road from Bay d I F.spoir to Harbour Breton and as a result this road is blocked. Roads in the llennitage Area are open but heavy drifting is reported~ ANSWERS TO QUESTIO~S MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to Question No. 56 on the Order Paper of February 26. 1106

February 27, 1973 Tape No. 357 MR. MOORES: Hr. Speakerj I would like to m:1sw-er Question No. (61) 1a it a most unustrn.l one -"Dn the government maintnin an office in Ottawn?" I have che.cked with ct.11 the d§lpnrtments and as far as I can ascertain, no we do not nnd that means that nnswers to (2a), (2h), (2c), (2d) i (2c); (2f) are no. MR. HICKMAN: :'lr. Speaker, the ans'W"ers to Questions N!,,i - 1 No. (47) and (48) on the Order Paper of Monday, Harch 26, asked by the honourable the member for White Bay South, the nnswer to No. (47) is 17.9 and the answer to No. (1,8) is 118,2. MR. BARRY: Hr.

Speaker, in ::nswer to a supple;::;entary question asked by the honourable member for Bell Island in connection with the Buchans Mining Company, the question was whether it was correct if they had ceased diamond drilling, I believe this was the question - the infornation which I have received is that the Buchans Hirdnp; Company spent $300,000 on diamond drilling in 1972 nnd that they expect to spend about $150 1 000 on drilling this year and this $150,000 is only one item in an exploration programme vhich is expected to exceed $500 1 000 this year, MR. HICKEY, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the nnsr-mr to Ouestion No. (57) on the Order ?aper of February 26 1 asked by the honourable member for Tvillingate. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the honourable Minister of Fisheries inform the House if he hilG had any representation yet from the people or the fishermen of Old Perlican concerning the breakwater for Old Perlican. MR. CHEESEMAN: Hr. Spenkeri in reply I cnn inform the honourable member, yes that we have had :representation via telegram asking us to take some action on their behalf which has been done. MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Speakerj might I direct a question to the honourable Minister Ofi Fisheries, has his departne.nt had any success 1107

Tape No. 357 NM - 2 xm. WINSOR: in attracting any fish plant operator to operate. the plant at Change Islands? I have heard a rumor that Booth Fisheries may be interested, is this correct? MR. CHEESEMAN: Mr. Speaker, to answer the honourable member is that there have been enquiries directed to the Department of Fisheries, the people concerned have been directed to the fisheries committee at Change Islands and I believe some negotiations have been carried on and there is some possibility that something will come about as a result of that~ But beyond that I cannot be specific at this point. MR.

WINSOR: With Booth Fisheries? HR. CHEESEMA~: No, I could not tell you. They have had meetinr,s with several groups and we have been informed of the meetings. HR. F. ROwE: I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Education, in view of the fact that there is a petition being circulated to abolish the number of school tax authorities and set up a separate one central agency~ is the minister giving any thought to reducing the number of school tax authorities and having a central agency for collecting such funds? }ffi..

SPEAKER: I will permit the honourable minister to ask a question if he so desires but I think it is a question that could very well be placed on the Order Paper. HR. OTTENHEIMER: New perhaps just to save printers ink 1 should answer it anyway. It is not a very specific answer and obviously the honourable gentleman does not expect one because it was not that specific a question§ but the whole area of school taxation is under study.

As a matter of fact I think it is the day after tomorrow I will be meeting in Comer Brook with the Provincial Association of School Tax Authorities and this and other matters are under discussion and study~ 1108

February 27i 1973 Tape No. 357 NM - 3 MR~ MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, before we get in to Orders of the Day, on Answers to Questions, I would like to inform the House that no matter how muc.h the. opposition or for that matter my colleagues instruct, obstruct or distruct today, we are not going to sit tonight. Motion second reading of a Bill, r,An Act To Amend The Wild Life Act.I! MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, there is a first time for everything I guess. An iiAct To Amend The Wildlife Act, 1 The intent of this bill is fourfold. First of all to redefine the term "residentn as it is explained in the Wildlife Act,

chapter (400) of the Revised Statutes of Newfoundland 1970. Secondly to provide for the safety of both hunter and guides and thirdly to enable the payment of commission to venders who sell licences. I am told that this particular item has been in force and this really is legalizing something that has been going on for a long time. Fourthly,to provide a penalty for anybody who impersonates a wildlife officer.

On the first item which redefines the word "resident"~ in effect it expands the word nresident" to take into consideration while stationed in the province any member of the Canadian Forces or the R.C.!l.P. 1his I am told is now done in practically all the other provinces so in effect it is sort of a reciprocal bill. The second part allows Newfoundlanders who are attending university or school elsewhere in Canada to be deemed as a resident as soon as they return home for a short period of time for purposes of obtaining a licence. Section (4) is a safety aspect as I said for both hunters and guides.

Section (4b) provides for the five per cent commission to be paid to vendersl this is for the normal handling of licences and so on and so forth. Section (5) provides penalties for anyone who attempts to 1109

February 27, 1973 Tape No~ 357 NM - 4 MR. OOYLE: impersonate a wildlife officer. In general, ML Speaker, that is the bill, "An Act To Am.end The Wildlife Act, if anybody has any questions I will do my utmost to answer them. MR. WM. ROWE: The bill, Mr. Speaker, appears to be a completely unobjectionable one, as a matter of fact it appears to be a salutary bill and we on this side hnve no objection to it at all. It seems that the time has come for 311 hunters in the woods of the province to make sure that proper clothing is worn.

We are reaching the point now where - the same state as they have reached in other provinces of Canada where there are more hunters than wildlffe killed during the course of tt hunting season. I think that any regulations to that effect would be welcome here in the province.

I notice that the type of clothing to be worn is going to be set out in regulations and I would assume that the minister will be taking every possible step to make sure that these regulations~ which are normally merely gazetted, will be brought to the attention of all the people in this province because very few people in my district, for examplet of White Bay South, are regular subscribers to the Gazette.

I doubt if they are going to have a chance to read these regulations unless the minister takes great pains to advertise them fully and to make sure 1 as every man in Newfoundland p;oes into the woods at some point or other, and I would hate to see any problems arising in my own constituency or any other constituency where you get calls on the phone saying that someone has been arrested or a gun has been confiscated or something because. they did not have the proper clothing on in the woods,hunting, in accordance with some obscure regulations.

So I would ask the minister to make certain that this aspect of the regulations in the bill is fully explained to all 1:l10

February 27, 1973 Tape No. 357 NM - 5 MR. WM. ROWE: the population of Ne.wfoundlund nnd Labrador. MR. THOMS: Mr. Spenker, really there does not seem to be anything I can find in this regulation to be objectionable.. The wearing of clothing, 1 believe is a very important step to be taken as far as hunters are - that is I presume the minister in the regulation, the colour of clothing. Not onlyt Mr. Speaker, should hunters be. wearing a red colour, I presume this is what the minister has in mind 1 red type clothing 1111

rehrua-ry 27, 1973, Tape 358, PAge l - apb but also people who are not hunters in our forests. I am sure the TtJiniste-r must realize that during the hunting season, not only is the life of the hunters in danger but also many of our other citizens~ \~7 ile this may not necessarily come under the Wildlife Actt I helieve it should he c:cmtrolled, not by the Department of Tourism but by the Departtr.ent of Forestry and Agriculture.

I think that some. department of governnent should give this thought: some consideration as to m;;ldng it compulsory for everyone who travels in our forests, particularly during the hunting season to wear sone kind of protective clothing: against possible accidents. If the honourable minister speaks now he closes the debate. I thank both honourahle gentlemen for those two good suggestions.

I m:tght RB a matter of interest quote the following to give an example of the type of clothing or colour of clothing ~hich the officials are thinking about; As part of the programme consideration is being given to making: it mandatory for all hunters to wear while hunting a specific number of square inches of a bright coloured clothing perhaps in the form of a vest. Some atatea and provinces now require all hunters to wear such a vest of say a fluorescent blaze orange colour having a back of approximately 200 square" inches and a two-piece front of approximately 160 square inches.

It looks from this file that the homework is well clone~ In reply to the honourable member for White Bay South, it is an excellent suggestion on the general publicity, Not only do we have to be sure that our oW"TI people get to know about it, but we will have to have it included in the normal tourist literature which is published and is available, as the 0 Huntin1; Guiden booklet and so on which I would hope would be incorporated by next year. If there are no further connents I have pleasure in moving second readin@: of this bill. 1112

February 27, 1973, inre 358, Pa~e 2 -- apb On motion, a bill; H An Ac.t To Amend The Wildlife Act.' read a second time. ordered referred to a Comr:dxtee of the Whole House pn,sentlv by leave. Second reading of a bill: aAn Act Further To Amend The fX,._S!.intenance Act." (No. 12). HON. J.G.POUSSEAU (PINISTER OF RECREATION AND Mr. Speaker~ today is the day for firsts, may I be as lucky as my seatmate and colleague fron Ferryland. Today's bill; 1 'An Act Further To Amend The ~laintenance Act," most of the changes proposed in this bill have been recommended by the r:ushue Family Lau Studv. ln addition to amendinr the

long title of the principal net by sut-itituting the w"Ord "spouses" for 'wives'. The anendr.icnt imposes certain ob1 igations on a wife to support n deserted hushand and any children in his care and control. The original act was limited to the ohligation of a husband to support his wife and any children in her care and control.

Section 3A, the bill proposes to enlarge the definition of acts of cruelty by includinp; such phrases as 1 'an apprehension of danger" in addition to a danger to life, limb or health and apprehended in addition to actual personal violence and apprehended in addition to actual injury to health~ The definition of acts of cruelty in also amended by chang:inp: the reference to nthe husband" to 11 other spousei

Section 3B, the definition of a child has been amended to include an illegitimate or adopted child as well as a grandchild? stepchild or foster child actually or apparently under the age of seventeen years and has been expanded to include a child under the age of majority,that is nineteen years old,who because of physical or mental disability is unable to provide himself with adequate food or other necessities.

Section 3C. this paragraph defines « deserted husband." The original act in paragraph E of

section 2 defined a deserted wife. The purpose of this paragraph is to impose obligations on the wife to 11:13

February 27, 1973, Tape 358, Page 3 -- apb support her deserted husband similar to those imposed in the original bill on the husband to support his deserted wife. It also expands the d~finition of a deserted husband to include not only one who is living apart from his wife but one who though living under the same roof with her has forsaken all or the greater part of the normal incidence generally implied by the term cohabitation of the matrimonial relationship. Paragraph(

d) provides for a similar redefinition of the term deserted wife although it includes all four subparaRraphs of paragraph E in the principal act which describes the circumstances which make it necessary for the wife to live apart from her husband and the husband to live apart from his wife~

Section 4 of the act refers to the

schedule at the back of the act and if I may, I am not a legal genius but I have had some of my learned colleagues on this side of the House su1tiz:est the schedule. It was suggested that there being no judge near I could read the head note. I shall not do that but merely to suggest that in Old English desertion hnd to be a.a I understand it physical and complete and the

schedule here delivered by Justice J.A.Schroder sugj'!est it gradually over years to be fairer to a wife, constructive desertion evolved as I understand it, allowing for both to live under the same roof but establishing that desertion is not the withdrawal from a place but from a state of things so that a husband and wife living together were not necessarily within the jurisdiction of living together. They could for all purposes of this schedule, if you interpret it, constitute a desertion if they were not living under the normal incidence of matrimonial life. I will leave that at that for my learned friends to cling on to at a later time I am certain.

Section 5, How am I doing? Good eh! AN HON. MEMBER: Fine~

February 27, 1973, Tape 358, Page 4 -- apb HR. ROUSSEA]:L;_

Section 5, this

section by introducinr

section lOA extends the provisions of the act to include common--law unions rmd in

section lOB to for the application nututis rnutandis of the words man for woman and husband for wife and deserted husband for deserted wife in

section 4 to 10A of the principal act. ln

section 6 1 the simple substitution of ti1e words athe Judge shall order"for the words"and any person for whose benefit the order is made is 11 public charge or the judge making the order is of the opinion thnt if there is default in complying with the ordf'r anv person is likely 1115

February 27., 1973 Tape no. 359 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Rousseau to be a public: charge he: shall order.u lt eliminates the reference to the possibility of a person becoming a public charge.

Section 12, in the opinion of the Gushue Family Law Study of the original act,it was deemed to be unworkable and it was felt that adequate safeguards were contained in subsection (1) of

section 11 as amended which requires, nthe person to make payments to report to an officer fo:r such periods and at such times and places as may be deemed neces~ary to satisfy such officer that he has complied with the order for payment. 11 The purpose of

section 8 is to increase the maximum amount of the counselfs fees from fifty dollars to two hundred dollars I' at the discretion of the judge~

Section 9 provides for the judge to adjourn the proceedings at any time and from time to time if he is satisfied that there is a reasonable prospect of reconciliation to make an interim order for maintenance and to make an order for maintenance retroactive.

Section 10 and 11 provides for the appeal -of the

schedule and the enactment of the new schedules, A and B which are attached to the bill, HAn Act To Amend The Maintenance: Act. 0 I have pleasure., Mr. Speaker, in moving second reading of the bill. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is so much that you could say about this bill that it would take more than this afternoon's sitting of the Legislature. I personally think that it is a step in the right direction~ It is virtually impossible to plug all the loopholes.

When I was minister of that department one of most heartbreaking experiences I suppose that a minister could have is having a wife and family arrive at your office after being deserted by the father or the husband and having to come to the department and in some instances the mother had to make the children wards of the. state. Now while I was there also, Sir, l noticed that a little bit of a racket was developing. In a lot of cases people who learned the ropes would go down to the family court, get a legal separation and then they would qualify for welfare.

As soon as they qualified for welfare (I think it was 1116

February 27 ~ 19 73 Tape no. 359 Page 2 Mr. Neary. three months in those days, (I do not know if it is still the same or not) three montha after you had the legal separationi you could qualify for long-term assistance~ prior to that the department would give you short-term assistance. Even before the three months were up, the two of them were back living together again and it was probably months or even years after that the department found out that this was happening~ People would deliberately do this t Sir.

The husband would go out and work every day, come home in the evening and the Department of Social Services and Rehabiliation was supporting the wife and family. Now this was morally wrong but it was a very difficult thing for the officials, the field staff of the department to detect. Another problem, Sir, was that in a lot of cases where the judge ordered a settlement, nine chances out of ten, the payments would only continue for a limited period of time and then the husband would disappear. My hon. friend from St.

John's South is nodding~ He wo·uld disappear and never would be heard tell of after in a. lot of cases or several months later or several years later the wife may find out where the husband was and then they would get after the authorities in the city~ town or c:ommunity,wherever he was,and he pony up again for another month, two months 1 three months and then disappear again. He kept on the move. It is very difficult to get support from that kind of a person.

It was awfully embarrassing for the family. ~ey were neither on social assistance nor off it~ The payments were not coming through regularly and it was creating somewhat of a hardship on the family. Noo, Sir, I.think this bill goes a little further than anything before this act inasmuch as women's lib do not have it all their own way. Now, Mr. Speaker, under this act, not only can a deserted wife 1117

February 27 * 1973 Tape no~ 359 Page 3 claim support from her husband who left her but the husband can also claim support from his wife in this case~ This is just an example that from now on women's lib are not going to have it all their mm wny. There is another aspect of this bill 1 Sir, that I agree with and that is the part dealing uith the abuse of children. In a good many cases, Sir, when the family does break up - I would like to hear the minister's opinion on reconciliation because when l was minister in that department, it was almost hopeless, Mr.

Speake:rjl although the judge here can set the proceedings aside for a month in order to give the parties an opportunity for reconciliation. 1 would say that tha batting average is very, very poor. r do not know what the reason for it is, Sir. I suppose there is always that hope that the man and woman will get back together again. I would say that it is very, very remote~ Once the relationship breaks down, it is very~ very unusual that they can get back together again.

But, nevertheless, it is probably a good clause because there is always that possibility and the officials of the department, the social counsellors, the welfare workers and social workers are all there, their minds are all oriented that way. They are trained to try and keep the family together, at all costs. I think this is quite importance, Sir, when in society today we see the breakdown in the family unit. I do not think there is anything else in here, Sir, that is new. Most of it results from the Gushue Report on Family Law. Yes, I mentioned earlier, Sir, acts of cruelty on the part of the family.

This happens in a good many cases, not only when families are breaking up but it also happens in cases where families continue to live together~ I think probably one of the main contributing factors to child abuse and acts of cruelty, Sir, is caused by liquor, caused by alcoholism. I would suggest that that is another reason why the minister and the government should think about a hostel for alcoholics. I think there should be some place that alcoholics can go 1118

February 27, 1973 Tape no. 359 Page 4 Mr. Neary. to be cured. All in all I would say that it is a fair piece of legislation, Sir, and I have no hesitation at all in supporting the bill. _MR. SPEAKER: debate~ _MR. ROUSSEAU: If the honourable minister speak, he closes the First of all I would like to thank the hon. member for Bell Island for his remarks.and thank all honourable members on the other side of the House. for giving me a chance to get my first bill through with the minimum of involvement. 1bank you. 1119

February 27, 1973 Tape 360 JH - 1 The points that the hon. member for Bell Island makes are letitirnate I think. He can appreciate certainly the fact that even in a hill likP this which is really a major piece of legislation, far-reaching implications ,you cannot plug all the loopholes that are evident.

I think the inpcrtant thing here, and 1 might read if 1 may so that we understand the: situation~ desertion according to this bill and according to the schedule. is established if one spouse w'i.llfully refuses to cohabit with the other in the normal relationship of husband and wife so that to al 1 intents and nurposes they rmy be said to be leading separate lives al though they ctre Hvinr. un<ler the: same roof. ! think this is n naior piece of lcp;:islution. It is rm attempt to rectify an iri-justice that existed and it voes in sone direction in alleviating that situation.

Certainlv the: problen,s of reconc.ili;;tion that the reember brings up are weH taken and we are sure that p.overnment is concerned with keepinr, families together. As well the hostel for alcoholics i.s men tinned. certninh· we have an obligation as government to this segment of societv. The need for these people to have help and in mv canacitv now as Minister of Rehnhilitation some thought certainly is being given to this heln that we can nrovide for alcoholics. So with these few closinr, remarks T r1<JV'e second rr-adinr of the bill. On n:otion. a bill, "An Act Furthc.r To Ar:aenrl Tlw "1rdnten:mct?

Act.' 1 read a second time, ordered referred to n cc:nmittee of the i.,'lm1e House,presc.ntly. Motion, second re.1ding of a bill, "An Act Furtht?r Tn Amend The Criminal Injuries Comne.nsation Act.'1 MR. HlC'iZMAN: Mr. Speaker, whilst the bill itself is rather lenr:thy the amendment is not much more than a routine amendment. This Hnusr> 1120

February 27, 1973 Tape 360 is aware thnt the Government of Canada has indicated that it is prepared to enter into an ap.:rcet1ent with the provinces to provide some compensation or reimbursement to any fund or board that hns been set up to administer a fund to benefit and pay the victims of criminal injuries. This simply means. Mr. Speaker, that if any person is a victim of a crime ,suffers ,m in.iury, suffers damages and the person so convicted is not in a financial position to pay that then uptm application to the board that was sc:t up under this act compensation muv he nwar<led.

The Government of Canada has offered to participate to the extent of five cents per read which works out to about $26 J!OO per annum for the. province or ninety per cent of the cost, whichever is the lesser. Dur experience to date would indicate that it is likt:ly to he ninetv per cent of the cost for quite some time. To ciate the board which was set up under this act.and the c.hairnan of that hnard is Mr. l-lerbe:rt Margan, O,C. a:n<l the mernhers are Mr. Thomas 0 1 Reilly and Hr. Frank O'Dea; have heard but two cases. These are the only two thc1t have been dealt with so far. In one case the award was $319.82.

It was for a comparn.tively snall damage claim and the other a decision has not JM - 2 been handed down. I understand there are two others pending. The intent of the hill is primarily that it arlds to the number of offences as set forth in the schedule. In the orir:inal act there were twenty­ six offences and now there are forty offences, thnt if in the commission of same a person sustains in_iury there maybe compensation provided upon application to the court. The description of the offences as set forth in the

schedule to this bill is idential with the offences that will be covered in the nroposed agreement between the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada. The only other amendment here is the

interpretation

section again has been a~ended not drastically but to conform with 1121

February 27, 1971 Tnne 360 JM - 3 thP sui:u:::estcd definition contained ::tn the proposed anre.encnt. The only nther anendrnent that nay be worthy of drawing hon. menhers· attention to is

section 3 which contains uhat is now formally known in North America as a good samaritan clause which provides that if any nerson is renderinv. assistance and in the process of rendcrinF, assistance either under the Emergency Medical Aid Act or otherwise sustains in_]uries as a result of the commission of a crime he or she is qualified under the provisions of the Criminal Iniuries Compensation Act. 1 think that it is worthy of note to that in this field the province I will not sav led the way hut r.iy recollection is that we were the second orovince in Canada ,or we brou~ht it in the same year as Saskatchewan;to introduce a Criminal 1n,1uries Compensation Act~ 1 have forgotten the year but I recall it was when I occupied this portfolio before, I think it was 1967.

The act was proclaimed and the bonrd set up about a year and a half ago an<l to date fortunately, in a •sense because. l presume that this indicates that there has been no serious damages or in,iurif:S caused that at least were not re.coverable from the offender, that the number of claims under the act are not very high at this time. I move second reading. HR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. I have very strong feelin~s about this bill, not about the &"flendment itself. I think that is all right.

I remember when this Criminal Injuries Conpensation Act was passed I thought it was a fine and forward looking piece of legislation and I still think so. But the one complaint I have with the way I understand the board has functioned up to now, actually I have two complaints. One is that the average individual in Newfoundland does not yet know that this remedy is available to him nnd I think that it is no good to have it on the books if people do not know it. I recall one case in which I 1122

Febru3rv 27, 1973 Tape 360 JM - 4 was involved. It was the case of a man who was set upon without rhyme nor reason by three people who attacked him and knocked his eye out and he did not even know these people nor was he involved in any sort of fight with them or anything else. He did not know that it was possible to get compensation being the victim of a crime until fortunate)ytin his case, it was brought to his attention and I believe he is one of the applicants before the board.

But there are a lot of people who all over Newfoundland suffer as a result of crime, I wtmld almost go so far as to say every day, and the people whose degradations bring about their sufferini and loss do not have any money so that it is no good to take a civil action against them and i:;et a judgement.~ The _iudgement would not be worth the paper it was written on and I think it has to he somehow clearly brought to the attention of people that they have a right under the law of Newfoundland to seek this compensation. So that is one point.

The other point is,how does a Crimes Compensation Board look at its function?

They are allowed a fairly broad latitude and I understand that the board looks at its function to compensate people for out-of-nocket expenses,which we usually call in civil natters, special damap-es,but that it has not really come to grips with the question of what we would call in a civil case µ:eneral \ damages. 'In other words if you p;et your eye knocked out you will be paid your hospital bill, you will be !)aid perhaps yourloss of wages and two or three other things but what happens when your eye is gone, where are your general damages?

Now obviously in a motor accident or something like that you get paid special damages and then the court will make an award of general damages. But I understand the way the board has been looking at this is that general damages are nothinr like the ~eneral damages which would be awarded in a civil case. Now I think if we are roing to do this and if we are goin~ to embark 1123

January 27, 1973 Tape No. 361 NM - 1 on measures to bring about some element of social justice, Mr, Speaker, I think we ought to be very specific in these matters~ In a sense this is breaking new ground and it is a good move and good ground to break. But I think that the act should set out, in my view~ that the standard of damages or compensation awarded to :individuals under this act should be a standard in line with what is awarded by the court in general damages.

Now this might cost a bit of extra money perhaps it might cost more money than the department envisages or that the Government of Canada envisages in this agreement. The agreement I think is a fine thingt but it is no good to say to a person who is injured as a result of a crime, "well, all right.here are your out-of-pocket expenses and here are a few pennies on top~•• It seems to me that he ought to be compensated just the same as he would be compensated if the person who did the damage to him had the money to pay him what a court would award.

This I think should be the guide of the committee and I think that it should be written into the legislation so that a committee ~hen considering this would go as near as it could to what a court would award if a court were awarding damages in a civil case, and should say; "There is your award, there is your special damagest there is your general damages, the total comes tonx 11 dollars. n I think 'µntil that is done this is not going to be satisfactory.

I think it would be most unsatisfactory for a person to be just awarded his special damages,as it were, and very little for general damages. yet I understand with these prime compensation boards that this is the view the boards sometimes in fact often take. But it is not the function of the board to make something that would be like an award in general damages in a civil case. 1 think that it ought to be spelled out in the 1124

January 27, 1973 Tape No. 361 NM - 2 legislation that this is the approach that should be taken. Now maybe honourable members will disagree with me, maybe honourable members would feel that an avard of general dama~es or approximating general damages in a civil case would be too much~ Personally,I do not think so 1 and I think that should be written in the legislation. Mr. Speaker, I have one or two brief remarks to make. First of all I agree completely with the first suggestion of the honourable. member for St. John's South.

On his second point 1 think that he is on the right tract but I do not know if what he is saying is going quite far enough. For example, why should there be a disparity between somebody 2etting general damages ~s a result of a criminal act and somebody who suffers equal damage,for example, as a result of

an act which is not criminal but merely negligent? In the case of motor vehicle accidents, the problem is covered to a certain extent, not enough because of the lowness of the judgement recovery award - t35,000 l think it is, but is covered to a certain extent.

If the government of a province and I believe that probably they should become this, but if a government of a province is ~oing to start acting as an insurer, an insurance company to persons who are damaged by society or individuals in society, as they have done to a certain extent in the judgement recovery legislation, as they are doing in the criminal compensation board, under the main act to which this bill is an amendment, then perhaps the state should consider going even further and bringing in something which in cases where somebody who suffers damages general damages, big Reneral damages, and a person who injured him, not by a criminal act but by a negligent act of some sort, does not have the wherewithal to pay up, then perhaps society itself 1 1125

January 27, 1973 Tape No. 261 NM - 3 the government itself~ should take the responsibility to make sure that the victim of such .a thing is not to suffer unduly~ I agree with the honourable member for St. John ts South that the criminal compensation board should perhaps get into the field of awarding general damages, not only for­ out-of-pocket expenses but to take other things into consideration as well. I think it would be illogical to stop there, hut once we start doing that sort of thing, there is no end to it, nor should there be any end to it.

I think that perhaps society does owe that sort of a function to victims of crimes or torte in society.When the perpetrators of those crimes or torts or wrongs do not have the wherewithal themselves, then those persons injured should not merely suffer their loss or their damages on a sort of whimsical situation, 0 ne does not chose who is going to injure one or damage or commit a Crime against one.. But if that person who does that does not have the wherewithal to make good his general damages, then the person cannot recover anythin~,by and large.. So I agree with what the honourable member for St.

John's South has to say. Unfortunately merely restricting it to the operations of this bill will not do general justice. We would have an illogical situation and one that perhaps should be remedied by some other legislation to be brought before the House. Now on the other question that he mentioned, namely, publicity, I must say, as a lawyer and a citizen of the province, I am absolutely flabbergasted to hear that only two people apparently have availed themselves so far of the procedures under this act. Did I understand the minister correctly? MR~ HICKMAN: Four applications so farg 1126

February 26, 1973 Tape No. 361 MR. WM. ROWE: Four applications altogether and this thing hns been going ncrJ for what? two years I guess. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: I see, I can remember when it was passed by the House 1967-1968, but it was not proclaimed until last January sometime. '1R. 1HCK~.!\.1i: Later than that. !:ffi. tJH. ROWE: Or February, so it has been in operation for a year. So maybe I should not be as flabbergasted as I am. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HM. ROWE: Yes, but it has only been in operation for a year and the type of case that we are talking about here after all is where somebody is injured or damaged as a result of taking

part in riot, hijacking of aircraft, endangering safety on aircraftt causing bodily harm, etc. You know, not the types of things that arise every day of the week. Of course normally most people who are victims of an assault do not have any appreciable damage. Their pride is insulted, they might have a bruise or two but generally speaking most crimes do not result in say a person losing several thousand dollars,for example,whieh would be a great injustice. But, Sir, four may not be bad, over the past year or so.

I was under the impression that perhaps that four represented the number of applicants since the bill was passed~ But even so, I think that the suggestion of the honourable member for St. John's South is well taken. I doubt if anybody in the province is aware of the existence of this bill and unless they happen to stumble on a lawyer somewhere along the way and generally speaking, how many times do people come to see lawyers.

I go to my district and I find that someone was knocked lo~"ft by a car or something and he has allowed three or four years to go by and he has gotten around to seeing a lawyer and after hearing his 1127

February 26t 1973 Tape No~ 361 NM - 5 MR. WM.

ROWE: statement of what: happened, I inform him, '\;ell it looks to me like you could have had a claim for $2,000 or $3,000." People are just not generally aware in Newfoundland, around the coast of this province, away from where lawyers arei some people would call them ambula.nce-•chasers, away from the courts, away from this sort of thingf they are not generally aware of all the remedies available to them~ I think that perhaps a good benefit which the minister could do these people, a person who is a victim of this type of crime, is to perhaps instruct magistrates and judges that when cases are brought to court and usually the victim of a crime is going to be a witness in a case, especially if the criminal is known, that the judge or somebody in the court should tell him, inform hie as a matter of routine ~utyt that this criminal compensation board does exist and that perhaps he would be well advised to seek some advice on it.

That might not be a bad idea. In cases where the criminal is not fotmd and the person has suffered damages and therefore perhaps there is no case before the court, perhaps some other method should be found by the Department of Justice, either by having the doctor mention it to a man who has been treated or some such thing~ to make sure the people are generally aware of this type of legislation, this type of beneficial legislation~ A great number of our people around Newfoundland and Labrador ~re not litigious at all.

They are very reticent as a matter of fact when it comes to pushing themselves forward and trying to claim what in New.York City everybody would recognize as rightfully theirs. We have basically a rural population and therefore there is a great duty incumbent on the Department of Justice in the province to make sure that people are not, because of reticence or isolation or anything else, deprived of the benefits i128

February 26, 1973 Tape No. 361 NH - 6 MR. WM. ROHE! of a very good piece of legislation I am glad that the minister.along with the other provinces, has been able to come to the point where an agreement can be entered into with the Government of Canada to get some money from them. It should be,after all, a Government of Canada responsibility. The criminal code is the responsibility of the Government of Canada 1129

February 27, 1973 Tape 362 PK - 1 I am surprised that the Government of Canada have this requirement about ninety per cent or $120,000 whichever, is the lesser.

They should as a matter of principle I believe say that victims of all crimes who are not otherwise compensated should be able to be compensated from a pool administered by the Government of Canada and the province would probably be in an administrative capacity only, I think the Government of Canada should take full responsibility for this but leave it to the province to administer it just as we do in our courts now judges are paid t,y and are federal appointments, but we look after the administration~ erhaps we can pay for the administration.

But as far as the substance of the act and this amending bill is concerned,the Government of Canada I think should be responsible for it and they should not have any ceiling put on it. I mean what happens when $20,000 is expended and the Government of Newfoundland have to dip into their pocket: presumably. Well that ff' wrongtobviously. The Criminal Code of Canada is a federal act. Any compensation given to people will be a result of crimes committed under the Criminal Code of Canada and obviously the Government of Canada should be responsible for compensation~ the payment of compensation. I thank the House, Mr.

Speaker, and I congratulate the minister for bringing the bill before the House. MR. SPFAKER: debate~ If the honourable minister speaks he will close the MR. T. A. HICK!~.\N: Mr. ,Speaker, just a couple of points in closing. On the question of publicity I am in full accord with the suggestion of the two honourable members who have participated in this debate. The magistrates have been advised~ they are aware of the act and this was the subject matter I think of discussion at the last convention. How you get this information through to the public without a massive publicity eampaign,1 do not know.

I suppose we could use infonnation services, but then we would be criticized for using it~ 1130

February 27, 1973 Tape 362 PK - 2 Insofar as the amounts payable are concerned,this is set by regulation as provided for in the main act. This, Mr. Speaker, is the way it should remain because I a...~ hoping that now the federal government have sort of gotten its foot wet, that they will be prepared as years go by to increase their contribution and of course any maximum figure that,are set by regulation, will be governed to some extent at least by the contributions of the Government of Canada, The regulations do provide for the awarding of general damages as well as pecuniary damages. pain and suffering.

Again it is very desirable to keep this within this sphere of regulatory power rather than part of legislation. In closing let me say that I &'Tl on all fours with the honourable the member for White Bay South with respect to the involvement of the Government of Canada in this type of programme. I said time and time again that the Government of Canada and the Fathers of-Confederation in 1867 put one over on the provinces. all the provinces.

We have a situation today where the Government of Canada are in the main. well let me say it this way. the Government of Canada~ the Parliament of Canada makes all of the criminal laws. The Parliament of Canada has responsibility for bail and hail reform. They have responsibility to a limited degree forpenitentiaries and penal services.

But having done all of that, having kept for themselves the exclusive jurisdiction in the field of criminal law, lt is the criminal law that takes up so much time of provincial magistrates and provincial courts, the magistrate courts~ having done all of that then wtth reckless abandon they say to the provinces,you have the responsibility for administering that.

You know we can talk at great length about the disparity that exists in various Canadian provinces, between provinces 1 and that highways are better in Ontario than in Newfoundland or they are better in Nova Scotia than in Prince Edward Island, or hospitals 1131

February 27, 1973 Tape 362 PK - 3 are more modern in certain places but the real disparity, a shocking disparity eKists in the administration of justice from the point of view of facilities across Canada. This past year l went to Ottawa and made a presentation and all I was told uas that they thought it was a novel approach but they could not see where the Government of Canada should have any responsibility. It is a queer theory. It is an indefensible theory on the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion when they talk of infrastructure.

When they say if communities are going to grow, that if you are going to provide the amenities to, to enable people to live with a great deal of satisfaction, that this means hospitals, schools, roads, water and sewerage; but it exCludes the administration of justice~ It is not a very defensible position. I am not at all happy with the attitude of the Government of Canada toward the administration of justice in this nation. I move second reading. On motion a bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act.'' re.ad a second time. ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave. Motiont second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act." !llt. T. A. HICKM.~N: Mr. Speaker, I shall not delay the House on this bill~ it is about asroutine a bill as could possibly come before the House. There apparently was some doubt in the minds of some of the officials in my department as to the

interpretation of that s~ction. All it does it makes if abundantly clear that the crown when it registers documents does not have to pay itself a registration fee. r move second reading. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Am.end The Registration Of Deeds Act~ 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave. Motion, second reading of a billi 11An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation Of Collection Agencies." 11-32

February 27, 1973 tape 362 PK - 4 Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide for the reriscration of collection agencies under which provisions would be made for str:f.ct regulation of tfa?: business. the operation of such agencies. It also provides for the investi7,ation of -c.onplaints under the act and the regulations thereof. I.eRislation will require collection agencies to keep proper books and records showing ,111 monies received and paid out. Such records trill indude receipt hooks, cash hooks, etc., to he made available to the registrar upon request.

Suhject to ref!ula.tions, every collection ar;encies shall he required to appoint aml:itors subject to the regi"'t.rar. The nuditors shal1 f'e required to examine the accounts of the collection ar.encv. To he further requirerl to forward to the registrar a copy of every report made r>y him. The n:ct further set forth a number of unlawful pr;qctices. for example. no co11t>ctfon nrenev shall send any telerrnm or make any telephone calls for which the ch:irr:,e he p.1vable to the ~drircss0e or the person to whom the call is made, to a de+tor for the purpo!':e of demanding payment of a deht.

Under regulations ,apart from the requiring certificate of rc.p:istratinn providinp the forms for applicatlons, terms and conditions of registration, ·a.number of other 'terns may he rei;;ulated in the puhl :f c interest, that is, to prescribe the nature and the amount of fees and other charges which collection agencies may recover or attempt to recover for their services_ prohibiting the use of any particular method in the collection of dehts of the collection agencies. Approval of forms and agreements and other instruments and docu.~ents to be used by the agencies as prescribed by the registrar.

This appeal is very important

section of this act, Mr. Speaker, we find today a number of agencies are using forms and instr~~ents similar 11 ''3 - u

Fehruary 27, 1973 Tape 362 PK - 5 to one which I will very quickly read~ Similar to forms used by the courts which are. both frightening and intimidating to the unsuspecting public. I have a copy of one such form, Mr. Speaker, that I would like to just quickly run through~ It says right on the top~in black bolt print;'vithout prejudicer notice of summons" and of course to 1134

Fehruarv 27, 1973 Tape 363 rn-1 the name and address and so on. It reads in part.

"·•· are hereby notified that a writ of surernons will he issued against you returnable to thP. court of the jurisdiction sitting in the Province .•. :i.n favour of the nerson to whom the money is ovcd •.• name of the creditor for the c;um which is owed .•• on or before a certain date ••• '1 It goes on to Ray that vou can prevent this cla:lm from heing reduced to judgment by ca1lim~ on us by the above mentioned date and making satisfactory nrranp.cmentn fnr settlement It has a fictitious seal attached as trcH nnd it hears all the similarities, Hr.

Snenker, if :in fact a vri.t of summons had hecn :is!'.ued hy the court~ I am not sure how many agencies ;,rp u.<dnp, it hut mv officials managed to get this one and they tell me that thcv nre f:driv prevalant, certa.inl y in the St John's Area. It is certnin 1 v. "!r. t'ne;,kcr, a situatton which must stop because~ for a numher of reasons. it i,:;; taking advantage or using a measure t1hich ir, foct thr; court reserves the right to use. It f.s n form of intimidnti.on.

Phi1e ue <H;n•e th.1t whatever m0ni.es are owed by neonle. rip;htf11l1v ow?rl, shnn1d h'.' ri.p:htfnllv oaid to the person to Phom the mnnev is ovr,d, however, the r>r:H"ticf'R nnri the manner in which snme co11ecrion ar;encies have heen nctirH' of 1f!te leaves much to he desired. There is nroviBirm. Mr. ::r,,,aker, for nrnsecution ,if neon1e who go outside this net or vho cnntrnvene thiG act vhen it hecnmes lCl'.', It is one of numv nrnpressivc pfecen of 1epirdation 1,:hich vfl'l cnrrc before this House in n.n effort to nrotec:t the consumer.

T hnnP we wi.11 see more of i. t hecnuse there ii; a grent c!cn1 nf wnrl: t0 hp done in that area. The consumer for too lonr., "'r. Speaker, h:.s t'<ePn left at the mercy of peonl e vho nre not ahmvs re.snonrdh1e and, Sir, as T have indicated hv reading this dncum.ent,somc of v:hnn could not care lesB as to thf' manner {n which thev collec,t such dehts. I have much nleasure, vr. Sn0nker, tn moving s.;cnnd rennim;. MR~.f~~-: Hr. Speaker, I wnuld :-rnsrnne thA.t this bill is desi.0::nerl primarily to have all the co11ection ngendes registe.red in th0 province

Fehrun.rv 27, 1C!73 'rnrie. 363 IB-2 nml that fo so doinp, that in future any method that :ts considered tmethiral by the minister or the department c:a:n be checked on and action taken against the culprits. Now, Sir t this hill sort of ties in with something that we have discussed in this House on a number of occasions, that is the nrivacy of the individuals that are involved in these, in the information that is collected hy these agencies. Something has to be done, Hr.

Sneaker. to protect the individual Newfound] n.nders ap;ainst the ever increasing files that are being huilt un on these ind1vidunls especially now since we have comrmters. There have been a number of studies done both on the national level and on the nrovincial level. It seems, ~r. Speaker. that every time a survey or study is made that it merely confirms that more personal information is heinf! collected and made ava{1 ahle to larger numbers of users thrm nrobably most of us en.re to realize. This situation, as I say, has been aided and a~etted hy the introduction of the computers. Almost every act, ~r.

Speaker~ from huving a car to gettinp. a nassnort 1 enves a tratl of data heh ind :it. F.ven·, Mr. Sneaker, I think we mentioned this before in some of the dehntes that we hnve had in this House, even in medical examinationsJpersonnal information on individuals is recorded. You never know, Sir, where tt is p.;oi.n~ to turn up. Now I do not think that thi.s hill really goes far enou~h. Tt is a step in the right direction hut I do not renlJv think that i.t wi11 renlly curr< the problem that I ,iust mentioned.

WhUe He m;w not have a crisiR as vet, Sir, 1 think all honoura.hle memhers vill agree that information on the privacv of indiv:tduals is inc.reasinr and I think that we are going to have to exercise more control and take more safeguards in the ftiture ag'ainst this tvpe of thin)!, I do not know if this nerha.ps the minister can tell ns when he is closing the debate nn this - I do not know whether this hill will -1136

F'ebn.t<"irv 27, 1973 Tape 363 rn-3 give serious consideration to making nr;encies and companies thnt are collectin? this kind of information.if they have to register under this narticular htll. If they do, S:ir, :r would say we.11 and rood. It is another hill? Hell, I an glad to hear that, Mr. Sneaker, because th:f s is some thin~ thnt 1 nm sure that ho the rs all rnerr.:hf'rs nf this honourable House.

I would like for the minister to tell us also when he is closinr the debate iust how bis dennrtment intends to enforce the rePulations that will result from this h:Ul, hnw he intends tn enforce the vnrious sections of this :;cL W111 he he increas:inp his staff? 1':'ill he now have off.ircrs thn.t will go around nnd investi.>!:ate the complaints and so on so that action mav he taken without to mucf'\ rlelav because. the lonp_er the thfnp ls nut off, 1'1r. Sneaker, npnarentlv the> less serious it J0o!rn or it npoears to look. I think that is n11 vP have to snv on this nnrttcu]nr hill, Sir.

Tt is a sten i.n the riP:ht dire.cti.nn and I hor,e that the hill vill accnmplish what it setA out to do. '\fR, VAtJSHALL: Jvfr. Sneaker, I would 11.'ke to comnliment the minister nn this hill because this is a hill that is extremelv necessarv vith relrition to the orrler1 v collection of debts because as the oresent situation now stands the collection arencies in Newfoundland have been abusing the nowers which tlwv had been given to the noint of dunninr;: people, some people who are 1n the unfortunate position of O'WinFt monev. to the nnint of havinr. nervous f'reakdowns.

Now, this net envi.snges the appointment of a registr.ir tt' make regulation~ with regard to the operation of the act i ttw1 f which i.n effect will mean that the registrar will be a Fntc.h guard n1er the activities of cnliection agenci.es. I think this is verv nec:essarv because as the honourahle the minister nointed out one of the collection agencies here in St. John's, at least one of them, has been usinp: a naner which to any untuned eye would anpeur to by a summons from the Supreme Court of Newfoundland or from one of the courts cf the province. This is 1137

Fehruary 27, 1973 Tape 363 IB-4 completely and absolutely tmacceptable. It should not be. Such tactics which have been used in the past are Questionable~ It is somewhat regrettable that we had to hri.ng in leris1ation to curb them but such :is necessary. Also, the collection agencies have from time to time heen attemptinr, to collect from peon le who owe monev, not only the deht that is owed to their cU ent but a1 so the conrnissi.on wh:i ch the merchant who is collecting the debt, who lodj!es it with them. would normal}v hnve to r,av.

This act orovides that in no circumstances slw1J anv money in addition to the arnotmt owi.ng hv the debtor he collected. In the event that the collection agency attcmots to collect mnre thrm this amount of money then and :in that event. there will be the sanctions of the act apolied to them. There are fines in this act up to $25,000.

February 27, 1973, Tape 364J Page 1 -- apb It also provides that no collection agency is allowed to send a tele~ram~& collect telegram or make a collect telephone call to a debtor which was one of the favourite modes of collection by some collection agencies in this province. They would place long-distance telephone calls, they uould send collect wires, they would do practically anything without due regard to the rights of the person from whom they were attempting to collect money.

At the same time, there is still another protection in the act that no collection agency may enter an agreement, any agreement with a debtor with respect to the repayment of money in installments unless a copy of that agreement is filed with the registrar and the registrar has in fact powers under the act to approve this particular agreement. This is vital and this is necessary as well to protect the person, the individual owing the money. Also, they have to deal - a collection agency may not deal with a debtor in any name other than that authorized by the registration.

In other words, they cannot hide behind some facade. If they use form 1ettersi Mr. Speaker, the collection a~ency wishes to use form letters, these form letters must be approved by the registrar who is really the enforcer of the regulations under this act. Here again this is vitally necessary as also there fs a provision here to overcome that great inequity which the honourahle the Minister for Provincial Affairs and the Environment has pointed out of sending out pseudo court forms, forms that look like court forms.to indicate to people that they are already before the courts.

Unfortunately, the collection agencies in this province have from time to time abysmally abused the rights which they have had. They are using tactics which are questionable and this government is determined to see thnt these particular tactics are no longer useable by then. If they do use them~ the government has provided legislation here for the purpose of penalizing them. 1139

February 27, 1973~ Tape 364, Page 2 - apb There are also other beneficial provisions in this bill itself as we will see when we go through committee,empowering the registrar to exercise all functions necessary to cause investigation to be made,to conduct studies and make. enquiries and go into collection agencies to determine whether or not they are abusin~ the act. As I say, this is a very beneficial p:i.ec.e of legislation which is perhaps long overdue, it should have been in years ago~ I heartily compliment the. honourable minister for brint';illtl this before the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. John's South. MR~ R.WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I will not go into a long list of reasons why I think this is a good piece of legislation. The minister and the member for Bell Island and the member for St. John's East have referred to some,like this business of curbing documents that look like writs, the add-on charges, the telephone calls, the collect calls, all this sort of thing which has been the bane of many Newfoundlanders hounded to death by people. There ia one point that I want to refer to.

It was touched on by the honourable member for Bell Island and that is the lack of privacy or the extent to which people's privacy can be violated. I think you have to see one of these things to realize just what it is like. I did not know they existed until three or four years ago. I was negotiating on behalf of a client with another lawyer and I put forth certain claims that were based on information given to me. The lawyer across the table said; 110h no, he does not earn that rriuch, not only that, he drinks a drop and that is one of the reasons he does not earn as much.

In fact, that fellow is just about an alcholic and besides which he runs out on his wife and this sort of thing.n It would be unparliamentary to give my reply, but I said anyway, in substance: ''How do you know this? 11 He pulled out this and he said; "This is a retail credit report. 11 I said; itFor God I s sake let me see that. n It was the first time I had seen one of these things~ By gathering information from neighbours, from heaven knows who, they had put together 1140

February 27t 1973, Tape 364, Page 3 - apb a report the truth of which no one knowso No one could know whether that was true or not or how it was compiled. They put to~ether a picture of this nu1n which presumably they sold to people who would like to have it for whatever purposes or gave, I do not kno~ how it is done, but it was available this is the point, to people who in this case were negotiating against this man and had an interest in portraying hfrn to be something less than a desirable citizen.

I felt a feeling of outrage at that time and I wished and I hoped ever since that this sort of thing could be curtailed. Obviously, business has a right to exist and business has a right to a certain amount of information which can help them determine whether a man ought to be ~ranted credit or not~ but this was not a credit application this was a case of a person against whom that man had a legitimate claim and this company had access to this sort of information and was using it or hoping to, to try and defeat the amount of his claimo I have looked at this, I think the guts of this bill are in

section 21 which says; u certain unlawful practices 11 they are very clear. I have looked at the regulations and there is great power to make regulations here. In

section 22, subsection 1 clause (k), it says; "prescribing the form and content of record to be kept by collection agencies and the length of time for which they might be kept, n I think that is good.

I think it would be nice perhaps if a sentence were added saying; 11and what uses to which they shall be put. 11 In other words, if they are records showing a person 1s credit rating only that is fine, but I do not think that they should be allowed to be given to any Tom, Dick or Harry who wants to have them or who ~ould like to have a dossier on you, me or anybody else~ I think maybe that this might be the proper act and these regulations might be the proper regulations to make it clear that there is a limitation in this province as I feel there should be on the use to which such records can be put.

I have no hesitation in supporting the principle of the bil1 1 11'11

February 27i 1973, Tape 364, Page 4 - apb Mr~ Speaker, and commending the honourable minister for introducing it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador South. MR. M.MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to say a few brief words on the point raised by the honourable member for Bell Island and the honourable member for St~ John's South regarding invasion of privacy. I can speak from some experience I think when I say that the honourable member for Bell Island is dead right when he says that a man goes through life and cuts a great swath.

It is not too hard in this day and age of massive reporting to be able to pick up every little detail of where a man has been and what he is. The unfortunate part of it is that in such instances as the credit reporting agencies where they do not hire peopl€! , or they are not required to hire people who are hondahle and all this kind of thing, that the information that iets into these reports is all too often a conjectured opinion. I do not think that we can go too far in tryinR to limit or eliminate much of this kind of activity on the part of these reporting arencies.

I think we should take a very close look at and perhaps expand beyond

section 22, here~ I too, have no hesitation in supporting the principle of this bill. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. John's Centre; HON. A.J.!AURP!lY: Mr. Speaker, if I may, 'I had the pleasure to attend a consumers credit meeting in another rart of Canada where all the provinces we.re represented. This is the thinking that is going along, invasion of privacy and so on and so forth. The great feeling at the time was that everybody is scared about the invasion of privacy which we are in this bill trying to protect peopie from.

There was one expression there an expression of opinion by people who had been brought in there and they had representatives from banks and this sort of thing and this deals with further legislation that is coming up, I think there are two or three. The question is this, how far now can a businessman go to protect his business as to the legitimacy if you like or the credibility of a client. 1142

February 27, 1973J Tape 364, Page 5 -- apb Everybody goes overboard now to protect if you like and perhaps this is good, that you should not be able to check on anybody. We are living in a credit era where we have this installment plan and this type of thing. With this here and as I say, this is the general feeling of every province I would say~ that this type of thinr as I say, I think there are two more bills - 11'13

February 27, 1973 Tape no • EH::S Page 1 - MRW Mr. Murphy. credit card and this sort of thing with this. I just bring this out. The feeling generally is: how far can a businessman go to protect himself against unscrupulous credit seekers? I have heard the hon. merr.ber for St~ John's South here refer to the retail credit group who are basically a very reputable group across Canada. I think they are used by most insurance companies to report on people and there would perhaps be areas where they might go outside and make information available, perhaps, where it should not be.

As I say and I am just repeating the feeling of this meeting that I attended, (there were some fifty or sixty people there from all pr1,v:ln,:es1) that this is what we want, to protect the individual's invasion of privacy~ How far can a business or any business venture go to find out with whom they are dealing basicallyl I am just wondering about that thing and perhaps the honourable minister may be able to tell us that, Can you any more check on a client? ln what way and in what way can you do it?

Can you use a collection agency 7 A collection agency here is perhaps recovering a debt. but basically the granting of credit which I think ties in with this type of thing. 1 just want to say that everybody, every province has been enacting pretty well the same legislation but everybody goes overboard today, everybody has cause to protect the human rights and invasion of privacy. There is another sector of the economy of the wor 1 that deals in granting credit and where is their protection, hot1 far can they go to recover monies that they are legitimately owed?

I just thought l would say that, As far as this bill is concerned, I am supporting it one hundred per cent. I think it is one of the very fine types of legislation that arein use right across Canada today. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry in a way that I did not get an opportunity to speak before the hon. Minister of Social Services because there were one or two things that I wanted to mention that he mi~ht have been 1144

=February 27, 1973 Tape no.365 Page 2 Mr. Rowe (W.N.). able to comment: on but perhaps we will have further opportunity. (Inaudible). A.'i HON. MEHBER MR. W.N. ROWE: No, I was thinking about the Minister of Welfare. The honourable minister who will be closing the debate has been the Minister of Welfare so he might have some comments on it. First of all, before I get to that, I would like to assure him that the type of document which he produced in this House t I am glad he produced it) is a fairly wide-spread document.

I havPhad three refer to me, as the member for the District of White Bay South, one of them in respect of a debt which was about ten years old and its judgment was :,tatute barred. There was no way of collecting the debt, yet this collection agency still continued to send out that document. a similar document to that, maybe the exact document, sent it out to him and he was scared to death. He did not know what was going on. He had been advised that he did not have to bend, there was some doubt about his liability in any event.

He gets this and he figures that he has to r,o to court and everything, he was frightened to death, Two or three other people as well, Mr. Speaker, in my constituency had received those documents and really it is a very pernicious practice. There is no doubt about that. It is using the force,~respect ana prestige of the law courLs of this province for the wrong purpose. There is no doubt about that at all.

I am glad the minister has brought it out~ Perhaps, as a result of this public exposure, people who even might want to circumvent this very good bill which the minister is bringing into the House today, even if they wish to circumvent it in some way~ as a result of this public exposure they will not resort to this kind of tactic any more. The other question I wanted to get on to,and I believe it is involved in the whole principle of this bill 1 Mr. Speaker and that is the case or again the dozen or so cases that I have had in my own district 1145

February 27, 1973 Tape no. 365 Page 3 Mr.

Rowe (W.N.) and I am sure members throughout this House have had the same problem occurring and it has been brought to their attention; namely, a person in good faith enters into an agreement with a financial lending institution: and subsequently falls on bad times of some sort, Now I understand that if that person goes on long-term social assistance, there is usually in some of the documents an insurance provision whereby he does not have to pay back the debt~ Perhaps the insurance premium that he has been paying in~ in association with the interest, looks after the debt and they will not hound him, although I am not certain on that point~ I do know that there is another category of people who do fall on bad times; namely those people who do not go on long-term social assistance. (I have mentioned this in the.

House before those people who because of some physical disability are not able to carry on and do hard work, labour type of workt which in many cases that is the type of work they are suited for. They are not turned down completely by the doctor so that they get on long-term social assistance but they are stuck on short-term assistance with the proviso they are able to do light work. Now the chances of this type of person getting light work is absolutely nil, Mr.

Speaker, and I believe most members of the House will agree with me~ You get a man who has worked in a mine all his lifei underground or you see a man who has worked on road work all his life and suddenly he is relegated to the point where because of a health problem, he has to look for light work and the janitorial jobs are few and far between and certainly that man is not very often in the position where we can do office work or any work of that type.

In that case, you have a man who like all the rest of us is up to his neck in debt because of borrowing money from various financial institutions, in most cases lending institutions, finance companies and that sort of· thing~ I am wondering if perhaps it might not be a good idea for the minister, both ministers concerned in this directly, to come up with 1146

February 27, 1973 1'ape no. 365 Page 4 Mr. Rowe (W.N.). some type of legislation whereby finance companies and banks for that matter might be obligated to put in their agreement or loan agreement something to the effect that there is an insurance policy covering the pay back of the money.

If a person does fall on bad times, cannot get a job, no hope of getting a job t perhaps a board could decide it (I do not know how you decide whether a man is going to co~e under the benefit of such legislation or not) or something to the effect that when that situation occurs that insurance of some sort built into the loan agreement would then pay off his debt. I have loans myself, i.e., where if I am killed, the loan is paid off MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) . MR. ROWE (W.N.): Some sort of a disability insurance.

It would have to cover in Newfoundland certainly,where we have a high number of people who do labour type work, not only total disability but partial disability and that would have: to be decided on some reasonable basis. How many times have I gone into houses, in the District of White Bay South, and 1 am sure other members have done it as well, where the mother of six or seven kids says to me, 0 1 got another call today, Sir, from the finance company. The collection agents are after me. I am getting $125 a month/' or something or whatever the rate is.

"I cannot afford to feed my family, talk about pay back this money." I always tell them ,invariably~ I say to them; uDo not pay back the money. Forget about the money and certainly do not accept any collect phone calls/ 1 (l understand that that point is looked after by the bill here now) "Do not pay back the money until such time as your husband, if everi is in a position to repay this money from his earnings.

Do not take any money from your social assistance, take bread and milk out of your children's mouths to pay back some finance company." Now that might be wrong social advice for me to be giving: but I invariably give it because 1 think it is wrong for these people who are living on short-term assistance to be forced to pay back money which they 1147

February 27 1 1973 Tape no. 365 Page 5 Mr. Rowe (W.N.) entered into in good faith, at a time when the head of the household was working and drawing in good wages, to nou force them to pay back this money out of short-term social assistance. I commend that suggestion to the minister for his consideration and perhaps something can be done about it, I do not know~ It might be one of those problems where no legislation can adequately cover it, but I think it does merit some consideration. I made the same suggestion during the last sitting, during this present session of the House of Assembly.

I think that some legislation should be considered in any event to try to take this great number of people - I do not know how many are involved but I would say that there are thousands throughout the province - to get this monkey off their backs, to get this intolerable buuden of their backs so that they do not find themselves faced with these incessant demands~by phone calls, telegramst letters, this kind of tripe that the minister showed us today, so that that burden is relieved from thern ~hen they do fall on hard times in a bad situation. I would like to hear the honourable minister's comments on that, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SEEAKER: If the honourable minister speaks now, he closes the debatei MR. HICKEY: Mr& Speaker, certainly one cannot argue with a number of the points that have been made, particularly of the last speaker ,with regard to recipients of welfare and other allowances. I have to agree with him first of all that something has to be done~ Some way has to be found to protect those people who to all intents and purposes are innocent, are victims of circumstance, who if they had their way or had employment, certainly no collection agency would have to come after them. 1148

February 27, 1973 Tape 366 I should first of 1111 say that. ri~ht within that department under the rehabilitation programne and as more and more of the staff are more professional, professionally trained~ more emphasis is being nlaced now on h!.olpin~ people with such problems as financial ones and dealinP.s with collection agencies or finance conmanies. I am not,sure that that is as far as we should go. I think I have to agree with him that snmething else will undoubtedly have to be done~ It is rather difficult as to how it can be done. As the hon. member for St.

John's Centre, my collear;ue, pointed out.there is the other side of the coin and that is of course the people 'Who advance credit. They too much have some protection. But I would like to say at this time and to se.t aside any fears that he might have that there is nothing in this legislation which is before the House now,to my mind, which endanp;ers the company who advances credit. All we are doing really is protectinp. the innocent public from the kind of harassment that has gone on JM - l and the kind of treatment that has been handed down to many of our people which to all intents nnd purposes. Mr.

Speaker, is f!Jost unnecessary and unethical because it really solves no problem. The accounts,nccording to my officials who have done a fair a.~ount of tnvestigatinr,. the accounts are not paid any quicker and it does not brin~ any quicker results and the sum and substance of the whole thing is that people are frirhtened and harassed and threatened and intimidated and this is really what this bill is all about.

The other point which was made by the member for Bell Island with rer,:ards to the policin~ of this law when it is proclaimed and my only answe.r that I can give him at this point is that it is the government 1 s intention to completely reorganize the consumers affairs division of my department. This will undoubtedly have to mean additional 1149

February 27. 1973 Tape 366 JM - 2 staff and I think that while additional staff is necessary in both consumer and corporate affairs in this department I think one cannot overlook the great value there is in public relations and publicity of this kind of legislation. I think one of the ways to make the unsuspecting public aware of the dangers and on the other hand now some of the advantages of this legislation for their own protection is through a public relations program.me.

Certainly this matter has not gone unattended as we are looking at it very seriously and I hope that something can be done to really do il job in this area because I have to agree with the hon. gentlem:in who have spoken on this debate that you can have all the lat.ts you wish if they nre not policed and if they nre not cnrried out and adhered to or indeed if they are not followed up and if the people who contravene them are not prosecuted then it is all to no avail.

On motion, a bill, nAn Act Respecting The Rep;istration And Regulation Of Collection Agencies." read a second time. ordered referred to a committee: of the uhole House, presently. '1-f.otion, second readinr: of a bill~ ' 1

An Act Respectinr.: The Registration And Regulation Of Credit Reporting: Agencies." MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill, there has already heen some debate on it, but the purpose of this bill is to register credit reporting a~encies operating in the province and to make certain regulations for such agencies. It also provides for the investi~ation of complaints regarding the operation of such agencies.

Credit reporting agencies applyin~ for registration will be entitled to the registration except where the past conduct of such agencies and the financial responsibility would not be in the best interest of the public or where such agency has contravened this act or regulation thereof. The registrar may register an agency under specific terms and 1150

February 27. 1973 Tape 366 conditions or restrictions to be imposed by hin or by regulation. The registrar may suspend or cancel the registration when the apency has violated any provision of this act or regulation or has made any misstatement in application for registration or has been guilty of JM - 3 a fraud, misrepresentation, dishonesty or has demonstrated incompetency or untrustworthiness to carry on the business of credit reportin~. This act also provides for the control of ndvertisinp. in that the registrar can order the cessation of such advertisinr if considered false and misleadinp;.

Credit reportinr: agencies would be controlled to the extent of heing only pennitted to collect, store and report certain information as set forth bv the act and must be in a position to corroborate this information from another reliable source. They will further be required to sunplv upon request information on persons on whom they have made reports where such reouest ii': mrldC. by them. Mr. Speaker. that is a very important

section because too often reports arc ~ade on people and are certainly inaccurate rtnd unjustified or certainly unsubstantiated. ~fow when the persons heretofore made representation to such ap:c:ncies they t.:ere at the mercy of those ar,encies 'rccause they in effect could not even r,ct access to the report that was made about them while all and sundry of the general nublic miphr. well have had access to it. tn other words. Mr. Speaker. everyone who should not know would know except the person who indeed wou1d hf? entitled to know. So this controls this and prevents it.

Hhen this act pass a person who has reason to believe that a report which is: unfounded or incorrect has been made hv an aizency may urion request have that report and may defend himself or herself, whatever the case ~ny be. Under the regulations of this act provision is made for the setting of feesJ application for registration and other items such as prescribing the foms for the purpose of this act, the requiring of agencies to be bonded, the ~overning of booksj accounts and records 1151

February 27. 1973 Tape 366 to be kept, the exemption of persons or classes of persons from registration under the act such as credit :rer,ortinr, ri;,;c.ncies reporting on dealings ~ith industrial or commercial enternrises only. Mr. Speaker t there is a great denl one could rrny about this particular bill but certainly r think it is sufficient to say that it is long overdue.

It is an area where peopl c l:mve been persecuted innocently for too long for information that has been passed on either deliberately or other-vise tn whom really there is no entitlement, where one's private business becomes to all intents and purposes public and really there hns been a complete disregard for the privacy or the basic rights of the individual. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is tdth a great deal of plcarmre that I move second reading and as 1 have said it is just one other piece of legislation of many which are to come before the House. M