April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 489 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, April 19, 1985 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of Alberta Manpower for the year ended March 31, 1984. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you, and through you to the Assembly, 60 grade 8 students from Sir John Thompson school in the constituency of Edmonton Calder. They are accompanied by their teach­ ers, Mr. Bob Krzak and Mr.

Gene Korpan, student teacher Miss Kelly Shyry, and parent Mrs. Helland. They are standing in the members' gallery, and I ask the Assembly to give them the usual warm welcome. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I too have a special privilege this morning, to introduce 52 enthusiastic grade 6 students from the Pope John Paul XIII school in Fort Saskatchewan. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Al Stewart and Mr. Larry Sheriff, parents Mrs. Decelle and Mrs. Barbour, and bus driver Mr. Villeneuve. They are seated on both sides of the House, and I ask them to stand and receive the welcome of the House. MRS. KOPER: Mr.

Speaker, it is my privilege to introduce to you, and through you to members of the House, eight young ladies from Calgary Foothills. They are in the Path­ finders group, and they are accompanied by Guider-in- charge Verna Sorensen and by Guider Marilyn Millions. They've planned a couple of days in Edmonton to see the sights and to observe our Assembly as part of their citizenship badges. They are seated in the public gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. HIEBERT: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure this morning to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly 37 students from St. Gabriel school, located in the constituency of Edmonton Gold Bar. They are accompanied by their principal, Mr. Gerry Weber, teachers Mrs. Carol Bahry and Mr. Robert Motut, and teacher aide Mrs. Collette Van den Biggelar. They are seated in the public gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Hazardous Waste Storage MR. GURNETT: Mr. Speaker, my first question is to the hon. Minister of the Environment.

In connection with a question I asked on Wednesday, the minister didn't answer regarding the outdoor storage of transformers at the Kinetic site in Nisku. A year or so ago a member of our staff counted some 50 transformers out in the open, exposed to the weather. Since the minister has had two days to check, I wonder if he can now advise if those transformers are still stored outdoors. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, there are no transformers stored outdoors at the Kinetic site. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

It was revealed yesterday that barrels of hazardous wastes were stored outside at the defunct D & D facility. Has the minister issued an order to his officials to get that material inside and protected as quickly as possible? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the D & D facility is under the management of the department through its agent the Special Waste Management Corporation. I understand they are contracting with Chem-Security for the secure storage and management of that facility and will be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the material is safely and securely stored. MR.

GURNETT: A supplementary question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. It's good to hear that action is under way, and we look forward to hearing that the material is safely stored. The infamous Kinetic truck that we've heard about this week apparently is now on the road again toward Alberta from Ontario. My question is: has the minister yet received an amended manifest regarding the contents of this shipment, and can he advise whether or not there are any plans to escort the truck when it arrives at the Alberta border? MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the federal Department of Transport is co-ordinating the movement of these goods. The department has been contacted with regard to the nature of the shipments which are coming to the province. The Kinetic transport will be met at the Alberta border by officials of the Department of the Environment, to ensure that they are properly and adequately packaged and conform to the federal guidelines. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. It's good that the attention is resulting in a dramatic improve­ ment in attention to hazardous wastes.

The minister said on Wednesday that there's no legislation which provides for bonding to protect the Crown against being stuck with the hazardous wastes from prior to March of this year. Other than bonding, what system has the minister put in place to protect the Crown against incurring liability for the thousands of tonnes of old wastes that were gathered prior to March of this year? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the legislation is specific in terms of its effect and when it was proclaimed.

The only action the government is able to take is subsequent to the proclamation of that legislation, and that is to ensure that bonding is in place for new shipments coming into the province. I am not aware that we are able to require this bonding to apply retroactively to wastes currently in storage. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question to the minister. Has there been any investigation about whether or not there can be retroactive attention to those wastes?

490 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I believe I answered that. I'm not aware that we are able to retroactively impose a bonding condition. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question. On Wednesday the minister also told the House that those generators or companies that are responsible for hazardous wastes will continue to store wastes on their own sites prior to storage being available at Swan Hills.

Can the minister advise about the licensing and inspecting system that is in place to assure that the public health is protected against these dangerous wastes at the various sites where they will be held? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, there are generators in the province who generate a certain type of material which could be defined as hazardous waste. We are awaiting a further review of our proposed hazardous chemicals regu­ lations, which will deal with a number of those matters.

Currently the department inspects, on a periodic basis, various facilities throughout the province with regard to the storage of these types of materials. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. The minister talked about periodic inspection and about the fact that there will be an attempt to contract with Chem- Security for the cleanup of the D & D site at Nisku. Could I ask the minister why the Special Waste Management Corporation is not specifically involved in taking care of the cleanup at the D & D site? MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Department of the Environment is the responsible agency with regard to this matter, and we are using the Special Waste Management Corporation as our agent with regard to those activities. At this point the Special Waste Management Corporation has a verbal contract with Chem-Security with regard to that site. Chem-Security is on the site daily in terms of inspection and will be carrying forward whichever methods are nec­ essary to ensure the continued safe storage of the waste at that site. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Before I ask it, I had one Pope John too many.

It's Pope John XII from Fort Saskatchewan, not XIII. I'd like to ask the minister: has the Department of the Environment had people at the D & D site since I asked the question yesterday on the inspection of the site? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I've been advised that through our agent, the Special Waste Management Corpo­ ration, Chem-Security is the responsible agent at this point in time and that they have daily and nightly inspections of the site. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister indicate if there are going to be signs put around the area in the very near future to indicate to people who may be travelling in the area that there is a potential health hazard on that site? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker. I believe there is signage at the entrance to the facility. I can take under review the matter as to whether or not any further signage is required. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, has the minister's department had an opportunity to look at the possibility of putting berms around the site, as we do with oil storage, so that if there is a rupture of any of the containers, that would not get into the watercourse that is in proximity? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that there would not be an immediate danger of that nature. The materials that are in storage are capacitors, which are packed in sand inside the drums, so there is not a danger of the nature the hon. member suggests. Sex Discrimination in Private Societies MR. GURNETT: My second question, Mr.

Speaker, is to the Attorney General. We've heard that there is no dis­ crimination with regard to the distribution of hazardous wastes around the province. My question is whether the Attorney General can advise whether or not he has solicited any advice or opinion with regard to the legality of men- only clubs or events, in light of the proclamation this week of

section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Free­ doms. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think the important distinction to be drawn relative to the Charter is that it is a virtually unanimous opinion of people who have arrived at conclusions — there may yet be some remote chance that a court would find otherwise — that because of its wording the Charter really deals with relationships between the government at any level and the citizens. That probably includes certain types of government agencies. Private oper­ ations are not affected by the Charter.

The balance of that opinion is that most people acknowl­ edge that the provincial statutes are far more relevant when it comes to questions that relate to dealings between citizens or between businesses and citizens; in other words, that area of human interplay which does not involve the federal government or the provincial government. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Attorney General advise whether or not it's been brought to his attention that the Edmonton Club, the Sir Winston Churchill Society, and the Robbie Burns Society have and maintain specific policies which exclude women from their membership? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, no one has approached me in respect to any concerns in that area. If they did so, I would respond in the way I have to the hon. member. Although it may not be relevant, I have my own view of such matters. I think it's unfortunate that some organ­ izations maintain that situation, but it is not a matter that the Charter could correct.

It is a matter that provincial legislation probably has much more relevance to, but what an

interpretation or judgment might be on such a point is something on which I don't feel able to speculate this morning. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Attorney General. In view of the fact that the Edmonton Club, the Sir Winston Churchill Society, and the Robbie Burns Society are apparently all incorporated under the Societies Act, and in view of

section 40 of the Judicature Act, which says in part that "a person shall not be dis­ qualified by sex or marriage for admission to an incorporated society", my question to the Attorney General is, rather than an opinion, whether he can advise the steps he intends to take to ensure the compliance of these three organizations.

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 491 societies, with the statute laws that quite clearly prohibit that situation. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, in those specific terms it's not an issue I have addressed yet, in the sense of any specific complaint being made to me. The administration of the legislation is something that I suppose could take note of situations like that if they're brought to the attention of those responsible for the administration. At the same time, I should say that without consulting, I'm not sure in my own mind as to whether or not there are effective steps that can be taken pursuant to legislation. The

section the hon. member referred me to is undoubt­ edly part of the law of the province. But I must say that without taking advice on it, I'm not sure what the total legal consequences of that would be and what steps might be available to individuals who want to challenge private societies or societies incorporated under a provincial public statute. Usually I advise them to take advice and do what they think they should do in the circumstances. MR. GURNETT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

In view of that and the fact that there is a particular sensitivity about these things at this particular time, can the Attorney General assure us that he will investigate what can be done and make that information clearly available to people who may be interested in proceeding? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think that's a fair enough request and suggestion. I'd be glad to have some opinion on it and provide it to hon. members so that it might gain the necessary public exposure.

I would always do that on the basis that even so, persons who contemplate some sort of proceeding must seek their own counsel, of course, and instruct them as to what they want to do. But I'd be glad to do that in order to give some clarification of what is surely a sensitive issue. DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could supplement the answer of the hon. Attorney General regarding Robbie Burns societies in particular. Since the gentleman had quite a reputation with the lassies, it may have been that the one evening per year was his sole escape. Eastern Slopes Policy DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the Associate Minister of Public Lands and Wildlife. With your help, Mr. Speaker, and the help of the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I finally got my popes straightened out. It's Pope John Paul II. It just proves, Mr. Minister of Municipal Affairs, that you can't believe what you read in the papers or some of the information you're given at times. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Associate Minister of Public Lands and Wildlife has to do with the revised Eastern Slopes policy.

Can the minister indicate how much input there was from the general public when the government made its decision to, I feel, drastically change the Eastern Slopes policy? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, the original policy was written in 1977. Shortly after that the integrated management planning process starting taking place throughout the Eastern Slopes, under what we classify as regional plans. A lot of public input has taken place through that process of integrated management plans in the 11 zones within the Eastern Slopes.

The basic changes to the 1984 policy came about after input from interested groups through the integrated man­ agement planning process and directly to our staff. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, in the minister's meeting with the advisory committee, it seemed that the policy review had very, very little opportunity to react. Can the minister indicate what input the advisory committee had into the minister's decision? MR. SPARROW: I suppose you're getting at the 1984 policy document itself. The final drafts of that document were discussed with the advisory committee at one of their meetings.

But prior to that the advisory committee worked with our staff on each of the integrated regional plans and, monthly, went over the planning, through the integrated management planning process, on a more detailed basis in their regions throughout the Eastern Slopes. All that input was available to us. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, in the minister's and government's change in attitude, which seems to indicate that Albertans are more concerned about the economy than about the attitude of preserving the Eastern Slopes, can the minister indicate what studies were done by his department to come to the conclusion that we have to exploit the Eastern Slopes? MR. SPARROW: I take offence at that remark, Mr. Speaker. We do not intend to exploit the Eastern Slopes. The government is proud of, and Alberta should be quite proud of, the extent to which the planning process takes place in this province.

I'll think you'll find that Alberta has a better planning process than any other government in Canada that I know of, and a lot of public input goes into all of that planning process. Mr. Speaker, I think it's very key that we understand the process. The integrated regional management plans in the zone-by-zone area will supersede the Eastern Slopes policy, and the detailed planning that has to take place at that local level has a fantastic amount of co-operation and consultation with all types of user groups. We have public meetings in each of those areas.

The plans are discussed throughout the day, and in the evening we have public meetings to have presentations made. Each and every one of those requests are addressed and answered after those public meetings. It's been very successful. It's used not only in the Eastern Slopes area but throughout the rest of the province of Alberta on all public lands. MR. McPHERSON: A supplemental, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate how many miles in the Eastern Slopes there are to exploit? MR. SPARROW: Again, Mr. Speaker, I take offence at the word "exploit". There are 90,000 square kilometres in the Eastern Slopes.

It runs from Grande Cache all the way down to Waterton. That's about 18 percent of the total province of Alberta. If you think it's a little park outside your back door, it's not. That's almost the amount of land that's in agriculture in the province of Alberta today. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, to the minister. That's what they said about the passenger pigeon too. MR. McPHERSON: One final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate how many of the 11 zones

492 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 included in the Eastern Slopes policy have been altered or dramatically changed from the former Eastern Slopes policy? MR. SPARROW: From what I understand, Mr. Speaker, there has not been any major change in the integrated management planning for the seven of 11 areas that are already well under way. I would like to bring to the attention of all members that seven of those 11 plans will be finalized this year. They run from Waterton right through to Drayton Valley. We're just starting to work on the plans in the Hinton, Edson, and Grande Cache areas. MR.

CAMPBELL: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister inform us whether he plans on putting in forced land use zones at Panther Corners, Ya Ha Tinda, the upper Clearwater, the headwaters of the Ram, the Blackstone, the Wapiabi, and Job Lake? MR. SPEAKER: I have a little difficulty with that. It has occasionally happened in the past that by strange coincidence the ministers have had answers to that kind of question on their desks. If that coincidence has occurred today, we might deal with it briefly. MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, I'll gladly answer that.

It's not that it's on my desk today; it's been on my desk for some months. There's a process we go through. You're talking about the Nordegg-Red Deer plan area. The plan has had its public meetings. We've had a fantastic amount of public input about those issues. In that case the plan document showed proposed forest land use zones in the areas you discussed. You might have thrown an extra one at me, Jack. I know there are several in it, but they were discussed.

It seems that with the majority of the input I've received to date, there's no reason those forest land use zones will not come forward for Executive Council to consider after approval of the plan. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. The minister gave the figures in hectares. For us guys who think in the old terms of acres and square miles, could he please give us the figures in those land measurements too? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, my staff has me fully converted, and they don't give me those other figures anymore. I guess you have to calculate them for yourselves.

Steve Fonyo Journey for Lives MR. McPHERSON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care could update the Assembly on the enormous efforts of Steven Fonyo and his Journey for Lives as he works his way through Alberta. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, at this time I'm really not able to give any more detailed information than has already been reported through the press. But it looks like Albertans have responded in just an incredible and generous way to the efforts made by Mr. Fonyo.

It looks as if our province is going to be able to say that we as Albertans have contributed an amount equal to the rest of Canada. I think that's very gratifying. He hasn't left Alberta yet, and even after he does leave, there's still time for people to do things. This is a good chance for me to put in a free plug for those last organizations to make a contribution that's going to be able to do something special for young people, particularly, and others who are suffering from cancer and cancer-related diseases.

As an aside, I took the issue to my constituency association last week, and we as a constituency association are giving $200. I'm putting that mark out there for other constituency associations in the Legislature, to see if they want to match it or come to some part of it. As members of the Legislature we might be able to make a meaningful contribution in our associations. MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I wonder if the minister could advise the Assembly how the determination will be made as to where those funds will be directed within the province of Alberta. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding is that the committee for the Journey for Lives administers the funds that are directly contributed, and most of those will stay in Alberta. The others, the matching funds put up by the government of Alberta, will be divided equally between the boards of the children's hospital and the cancer programs hospital board, and it will be up to those boards to allocate the funds. MRS. FYFE: Would the minister confirm that those are funds they would receive in addition to what they would regularly receive in their yearly budget? MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The exciting thing about this is that this is newly found money and a chance for those boards to buy special equipment or carry out special programs that would not otherwise have been funded. That's why we're trying to urge people to really contribute. Farm Fuel Distribution Allowance MR. HYLAND: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Pro­ vincial Treasurer. I've been approached by a number of my constituents and a number of automobile dealers in the constituency. Is the provincial government in a position to look at the possibility of including unleaded gasoline under farm fuel distribution allowance credits? MR.

HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is correct in spotting a trend, and we are looking at that at the moment. The Assembly will recall that, to date, the farm fuel distribution allowance of 7 cents a litre is available only for leaded fuels. This has been essentially because most farm equipment, small engines, and medium and large trucks on the farm use either leaded gasoline or diesel. However, in 1985 the manufacturers' specifications reflecting increased environmental standards for smaller pickup trucks called for unleaded gas.

I'm told that if leaded gas is used, you get an engine which runs more roughly and also lower mileage. Even though the trend at the moment appears to be small and localized, it appears to be growing. Accordingly, we are prepared to look at making regulatory changes which would make it possible for bulk dealers to make that farm fuel distribution allowance benefit available to farmers when and where the dealers wish to respond to demand. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Provincial Treasurer. Will the availability of that gas

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 493 be immediate, or is it going to be six months down the road? What time limit are we looking at? MR. SPEAKER: Are you talking about the availability of the gasoline or of the support for purchasing it? MR. HYLAND: The support through the program. MR. HYNDMAN: We want to revise the regulations to make the delivery as efficient and effective as possible, Mr. Speaker, so it may take a few weeks. I stress, though, that the decision with respect to whether that benefit would be made available is the bulk dealers', depending on the local demand and on the marketplace. MR.

GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Provincial Treasurer. Is consideration also being given to increasing the per-litre payment, the size of the allowance, so it comes back into line and is more reflective of the level it previously had as far as the assistance it provides toward the cost of gasoline relative to the pump price of gasoline? MR. HYNDMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. I would point out that the level of that benefit, at some $73 million or 7 cents a litre, is unique in the country.

No other province provides that kind of special support with respect to farming input costs, and we will endeavour to try to maintain that level in the years ahead. MRS. FYFE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister is now considering that nursery landscape producers also be covered in the transportation of their products to market, like any other bona fide agricultural operation. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Assembly has dealt on previous occasions with the matter of defining farming operations.

With respect to activities such as the hon. member suggests, or sod farms or peat farms, the benefit is available with respect to machines that are actually operating on the land where the sod or peat moss or nursery products are available. However, it is not available with respect to the transportation of those products. The basic principle and philosophy is that this special and unique benefit should be made available for those involved in farming operations in Alberta, so that would be the definition which would con­ tinue. MRS. FYFE: A further supplementary.

I wonder if the minister would give further consideration to these producers being considered as legitimate agricultural operations in that they are unable to sell their products on location and must transport them to market, like any other agricultural oper­ ation. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the represen­ tations made by the hon. member. I think the question is whether the activities mentioned are in fact farming oper­ ations, and I'd be prepared to listen to arguments in that regard. Canada-U.S. Border Crossings MR. MUSGROVE: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. There are some rumours about U.S. border closings, particularly between Alberta and Montana. Could the minister enlighten the House on the facts about these border closings? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, there have been some news reports relative to the possibility of closing a number of border points between Canada and the United States, spe­ cifically between Alberta and Montana. In order to clarify that matter, the New York office of our department has been in touch with the officials in Washington and the U.S. Customs Service.

I can advise the Assembly that any approval for actual border crossing closures would have to come as a result of legislative or congressional action and could not be done solely on the basis of internal or bureaucratic decisions, and my advice is that no such legislative or congressional action is planned at this stage. I could add, Mr. Speaker, that the department apparently has indicated that over 200 border crossings between Canada and the United States are uneconomic, whatever that means. In other words, there's not enough commerce or people passing through to justify customs officers to be in place.

Nonetheless, I understand there is a great deal of opposition to this particular proposal within the U.S. Congress. In fact, it is our intention to make representations to the appropriate Montana representatives in Congress as well as to the Montana state government to ensure that they are aware of the concerns Alberta would have of any proposed closure between our province and our only border state. Long-Distance Telephone Contest MR. ALGER: Mr. Speaker, my question today is directed to the Minister of Utilities and Telecommunications.

In recent weeks a lot of us received an enclosure with our telephone bill, inviting us to participate in a national long­ distance contest with the hope of winning a big beautiful car. My question to the minister is: why on earth would Alberta Government Telephones, a Crown corporation and a monopolistic one at that, ever get themselves involved in a contest of this kind? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, in his opening remarks the hon. member correctly identified the contest as a national contest.

I'm sure the hon. member is aware that AGT is one of 10 members of Telecom Canada, the national umbrella organization for all telephone companies in this country. I further remind the member that while three of those members are Crown corporations, AGT being one, seven are investor- owned utility companies. This was a decision made by the Telecom board, and Alberta Government Telephones has a 12 percent voting stake in Telecom Canada. The decision by the Telecom board has been endorsed by the AGT Commission. It is a contest that runs through the months of April and May to encourage people to phone long distance.

MR. ALGER: A supplemental to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Is this style of endeavour an appropriate measure for a Crown corporation to take? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is clearly asking for an expression of opinion. There may be an element of fact in it, and all hon. members are entitled to their own opinions on this topic. But perhaps there is some seeking after fact in the intent of the hon. member, and if he can go about it another way, that might be okay. MR. ALGER: Mr.

Speaker, for the moment I'll just forgive the minister with regard to the appropriateness of the contest, but I would like to know whether our Alberta Government Telephones corporation is obligated to participate in this

494 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 contest with the other companies across Canada through Telecom? MR. BOGLE: No, Mr. Speaker. If the AGT Commission had decided not to participate, then there certainly would be no obligation on the part of AGT to participate. MR. ALGER: A supplemental question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Is it absolutely legitimate for a publicly owned corporation to participate in a contest of this kind? MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the hon. member, when he introduces legitimacy, I think that is synonymous with legality in this context.

As all hon. members know, although there is legal aid available, it's not available in the question period. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Has the Attorney General had an opportunity to review this matter to sec if the contest that is in this part of the province of Alberta under AGT comes under the lotteries aspect of the Criminal Code? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker. I must telephone my officials and ask them that very question. MR. NELSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Could the minister advise if the action taken with this lottery is to additionally assist in any way the promotion of parts of the Crown corporation such as Altel Data to compete unfairly in the marketplace with those in the private sector? MR. BOGLE: No, Mr. Speaker. The purpose of the draw is to ensure that there's an attempt to encourage people to use their long-distance privileges more frequently.

I should also point out to hon. members that in the three provinces in Canada where the federal CRTC is the regulator — the provinces of Quebec, Ontario, and British Columbia — long distance is open to limited competition, that competition being CNCP. In no way will any of the dollars flow from the regulated portion of AGT to the sections of AGT the hon. member referred to, the competitive divisions. That's a matter the Public Utilities Board reviews on an annual, regular basis, to ensure that basic telephone subscribers are not cross subsidizing the competitive divisions of the com­ pany.

Rental Security Deposits MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the hon. Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. It relates to the annual report of her department tabled recently in the House. The highest number of the 103,000 complaints and inquiries to her department concerned the areas of landlords and tenants. I wonder if the minister could advise the Assembly if this trend is continuing; that is, the highest single number, some 14 percent of all complaints, concerning the Landlord and Tenant Act. MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker.

I'm not sure how accurate I can be in responding to the hon. member's question with respect to the first part of the newer fiscal year, which is not reported in this annual report. It is my understanding, from the landlord and tenant advisory boards and from looking at the letters that cross my desk and the complaints that are going to the department, that there's, still a high degree of unhappiness, if you will, with the landlord and tenant situation. MR. GOGO: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The report says that the majority of complaints under landlords and tenants were with regard to the nonreturn of security deposit and nonpayment of interest. Has the minister instructed her department to initiate court action where they feel it's warranted? MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, there is presently a case before the courts. The first part of it was concluded before the lower court, and it is now under appeal. So a number of questions remain unanswered with respect to the legislation we presently have.

I think it's important for me to note for the benefit of the hon. member, who has shown a great deal of interest in this area, that the landlord and tenant advisory boards collectively have provided me with a new set of recom­ mendations with respect to security deposits, and I have those recommendations under active consideration. MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Recognizing that much of this problem could be eliminated if legislation concerning trust funds for security deposits were introduced to this House, could the minister advise the Assembly if she's recommending to the government that such trust funds be established in the legislation? MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot agree with the hon. member's assumption that a trust fund or a trust account for each individual's security deposit would nec­ essarily put the tenant in a better situation, but I can assure the hon. member that there are several recommendations under consideration. MR.

GOGO: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that seven of the 10 provinces in Canada have it, in her consideration would the minister give some thought to contacting those provinces as to the effect on the economy of having such legislation? MR. PAPROSKI: A supplementary to the Minister of Con­ sumer and Corporate Affairs. With respect to the appeal the minister referred to, does she have a time line with respect to when this might be completed? MR.

SPEAKER: The progress of matters through the courts is not really the responsibility of any minister, and I respectfully suggest that the hon. member would be equally as capable of making inquiries of the courts as having a minister make them on the member's behalf. MR. McPHERSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplemental. I don't know if the minister answered the question of the Member for Lethbridge West with regard to checking into the trust fund situation in other provinces. If she intends to do that, I wonder if the minister would also determine how many civil servants are required to administer those trust funds? MR.

SPEAKER: No doubt the hon. member has made a representation which the hon. minister has heard. Pork Industry MR. GURNETT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. I have copies of a petition form being circulated by Gainers that I would like to file for the Assembly. My question to the minister is whether he is aware that this petition form is circulating.

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 495 MR. FJORDBOTTEN: No, I'm not, Mr. Speaker. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. The petition form basically makes certain suggestions about the relationship of the Pork Producers' Marketing Board, and I'd like to ask the minister whether he could advise how many signatures on a petition it would take to, prompt action on something. MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe the number of signatures needed is public knowledge, under the Agri­ cultural Products Marketing Act.

But recalling from memory and subject to my checking and reporting back to the Assembly, I believe it's about 10 percent of the producers. Eastern Slopes Policy (continued) DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a further question of the minister responsible for the Eastern Slopes. In the Policy for Resource Management of the Eastern Slopes, Revised 1984, there is a

section on page 4 which says: The government has determined that public lands and resources will be protected, managed and developed with a philosophy of integrated resource management. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the minister very directly: is this a direct change from the policy that was brought in in 1977, wherein we were going to protect the Eastern Slopes? Is this a direct attempt by the government to circumvent that policy of 1977? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, the 1984 policy very loudly and clearly identifies that protection of the slopes is its prime objective.

Resource management has to be looked at through an integrated management process, and opportunities should and can be identified to allow future development of the tourist industry in the province of Alberta, which is our third major industry. Since you have the book — I'm glad. Dr. Buck, that you have the book and have read it. If you drop over to page 2, you will see the priorities are listed too: water management, wildlife, fisheries, recreation, and it goes on.

There is very definitely high priority in all our planning process to protect the integrity of the Eastern Slopes and the environment in our watershed. MR. SPEAKER: We've run out of time for the question period, unless the Assembly wishes to allow for an exercise in exceptional brevity. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'll pursue the Eastern Slopes policy at a later time. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Might we revert to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to introduce to you 32 grade 6 students from J.E.

LaPointe school in the town of Beaumont, which is located in the Wetaskiwin-Leduc constituency. They look like they're very bright and energetic, and I'm looking forward to meeting them. They're seated in the members' gallery, and I wish they would rise and be greeted by the House. MR. WOO: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce to you and to hon. members this afternoon an energetic group of 46 grade 6 students from Our Lady of Perpetual Help school, which is located in Sherwood Park. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Jim Ziebart and Mr. Rocque Richard.

The teachers and students are seated in the members' gallery, and I now ask them to rise and receive the very warm welcome of all members. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure this morning to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly some 42 students from the Blueberry community school in the Stony Plain constituency. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Laurie Brown and Mr. Al Zoner. They are in the public gallery, and I asked them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to intro­ duce to you, and through you to members of this Assembly, 15 grade 10 students from Victoria composite high school, which is situated in Edmonton Centre. They are accompanied by their teacher Mrs. Shirley Armstrong-Kates and by student teacher Miss Susan Boytang. They are seated in the public gallery, and I ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the committee please come to order. Department of Advanced Education MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the minister wish to make some comments? MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, it's always exciting to talk about the future and the successes of the Department of Advanced Education, not so much in the context of what the government has done but in the way the institutions across this province have responded, a way in which we believe we are providing the highest level of services to students of any province in Canada. That is the essential mandate and responsibility I'm attempting to maintain on behalf of my colleagues in government and on behalf of the people of Alberta, and I think the budget presented today fairly represents that objective.

The total amount of money I am requesting is just over $939 million and reflects about a 7.7 percent expansion over the last year. I want to make only two or three important comments with respect to the elements of the budget and the way we are attempting to allocate the resources to those objectives. First of all, with respect to student enrollments in the system itself through the year 1984-85, the full-time enroll­ ments increased by 3.9 percent in universities, 11.7 percent in public colleges, and 2.8 percent in technical institutes.

This is the culmination of a fairly extensive increase in enrollments over the past three to four years, and we've

496 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 attempted to accommodate that student number enrollment in a variety of ways. First of all, I indicated that I think the basic institutions in place in this province must be considered to be among the best in Canada, and with the capital budget I am requesting here today, additional expan­ sion of the capital assets of the colleges and universities is also included. Secondly, with respect to the response of the student number increases, we have increased our overall assistance, our base budget assistance, to universities and colleges by at least 2 percent.

We have funded additional soft money, or special enrollment, to the institutions based on the increase in student numbers over the base year '82-83, and that amount of money is continuing as long as the students are in the system. If there is an increase toward the end of the year — the intake in '85, for example — we add additional money to reflect the increase in student numbers. Finally, Mr.

Chairman, as pointed out in vote 3, financial assistance to students, our assistance to students to allow them to enter the universities and colleges with a reasonable level of access has increased by 66.5 percent to $106 million, making the student assistance program in Alberta the best in Canada. In response to the student numbers we want to retain that priority through the fiscal year '85-86. Let me turn just briefly to the new capital projects.

I know that many MLAs will have an opportunity to express views as to the appropriateness of our decision to expand dollars into their constituencies to assist the various colleges and universities which serve their areas, but I want to note that we do have some new programs and projects in the capital budget of $123 million and that those will continue at least within this current fiscal year. Here in Edmonton, at the University of Alberta, it is well known now that we will be renovating the old Arts Building to the extent of $7.2 million, and my budget reflects a $700,000 appropriation for that item for '85-86.

A considerable amount of construction is under way at the University of Calgary reflecting several priorities, in par­ ticular the activity which surrounds the 1988 world Olympics, which will be taking place in Calgary in that period, as we well know. Nonetheless, there is a $3.5 million item for the Arts Building consolidation. The Students' Union MacEwan Hall expansion, some $21 million, partly funded by a variety of sources, including the students themselves, is now under way. As well, we are doing the old residence building renovation at Lakeland College. $8.5 million.

I know the MLAs in that area have had a considerable amount of discussion with the board of governors and have come up with a set of recommendations. We are attempting to respond wherever possible to their requests for maintaining that very important part of the province and the college which serves that area. So far our response deals in part with the old residence renovation, and we are expecting $4 million to be spent on that project this year. You may remember that last year my colleague from Olds made a considerable plea for ,stepped-up assistance to Olds College. I am pleased to say that in this budget. Mr.

Chairman, there is a $5 million item for Olds College, with renovation and new building under way. That, of course, is in response to his requests. Previously, Mr. Chairman, we had something called farm upgrading assistance, which was in my '83-84 budget. That money was very well used by agricultural colleges across the province. This year I have some $2.6 million for farm upgrading, which will go to Olds, Fairview, Lakeland, and Lethbridge Community College to assist them with the agricultural component of their programs.

There are many ongoing projects across the province through the Department of Advanced Education. I'll simply name a couple of them, which obviously would be the University of Calgary Phys Ed Building, which again is in the context of the Olympics, and the University of Alberta Earth Sciences Building, in response to the request from the board of governors two years ago to deal with the very dilapidated building. In the constituencies of Lethbridge West and Lethbridge East, two projects are under way, at the University of Lethbridge and Lethbridge Community Col­ lege. In any event, Mr.

Chairman, the list goes on to some considerable extent, and I'm very pleased to be able to respond in some small way to the requests of my colleagues for assistance to make sure the institutions are maintained to the highest level possible.

Before we get into some of the detailed questions which I know some members would like to present, let me simply conclude by first of all expressing my thanks to the capable people in our department, who have responded in a very magnificent way to both the pressures of students and the very serious responsibilities in dealing with and maintaining the budget, problems which are facing all governments, but as well providing some long-term direction and guidance to institutions as we attempt to define and shape the longer term responses of colleges and universities to the change in economic situation and, in particular, to the changing job market problems.

I think they have the best interests of the colleges and universities at heart, and I want to express my appreciation to the departmental staff, in par­ ticular the senior management people, who manage to put up with me on an almost day-to-day basis. Of course, I must express my appreciation to my own staff, particularly Sharon and Arlene, who have managed to cope with me for the past nine and 10 years respectively. I know they deal with a lot of your concerns, in particular with respect to student loan situations and problems.

Generally speaking, in my view at least, they are among some of the most capable people serving us as ministers. As well, my appre­ ciation to Randy Dawson, who serves as my executive assistant and who has just completed one year. Mr. Chairman, let me conclude by saying: very exciting times in Advanced Education. I appreciate the resources which have been transferred to the department in the last two to three years to cope with student numbers. I believe we have the best institutional system in Canada, and I think it's a mandate shared by all of us, that we want to maintain that objective.

Clearly, that is what that budget does today. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, for that opportunity. MR. PURDY: Mr. Chairman, in rising to make a few remarks on the minister's estimates, I am going to look at two areas. One is the Westerra technical institution and the other is student financing. As all hon. members realize, Westerra was announced April 1, 1981, and had a projection of 3,000 students by '86 and a possible 6,000 students by 1990. However, because of economics we have not been able to achieve that role, and the student population is in the neighbourhood of 300 and less.

The administration is now completed, as the minister knows. Some classes are in place in this admin­ istration building, and there is also some leased space within the town of Stony Plain where other classes are held. The board of governors should have in place very, very soon a consultant to draw together exactly which way the

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 497 technical institute should go, and they are supposed to report, probably in September 1985. At this time I'd like to publicly congratulate the board of governors of Westerra for the terrific job they have done with limited finances. We have in place Dr. Forbes, stolen from Red Deer, who is doing an excellent job at Westerra. He has a mandate to project the school and a role to play in the community of that school. I have a couple of concerns that are taking place right now, and I also have some questions to ask the minister regarding those.

I understand there are no lunchroom facil­ ities or anything within the school where hot lunches for the adult classes can be obtained. Also, there are no change rooms, washrooms, or facilities such as that, for various classes of a mechanical nature that are held. There are a couple of areas that I think the school could be going in. I've discussed this with the board, and I've also discussed it with the minister — in fact, a number of ministers in cabinet. One is the hosting industry.

We find there are no direct hosting facilities available in the province of Alberta, or in western Canada, where people coming into the job market to work for a hotel, a restaurant, or whatever, can actually obtain the necessary requirements through training. I believe the only one in Canada is in Quebec City. The other one I've talked about a number of times, along with the Minister of International Trade, is an inter­ national school of business to be established at Westerra.

We know it's an exciting field right now with the number of projects this government has going on with various other countries in the Pacific Rim, in Germany, and off this continent. I think there is a real market availability for trained people who can work with government and with private industry to project what is available. It could work both ways. The other question I would like to ask is: has the minister any contingency plan for Westerra for, say, the next five years, in case everything picks up and they have to go in stepped-up construction stages?

The other question I have: as projects and programs are identified for implementation in the current year, and these may require funds before a single set is approved, can the minister accommodate this within this year's estimates? What I'm saying is that if something came and Westerra got the blessing of the minister to go ahead and put it in place, is funding available, or would the minister have to go to a special warrant to accommodate that? The other is a real concern with a new institution such as Westerra when you have the NAITs, SAITs, Grant MacEwans, and others in the same community, you might say.

If Westerra came in with a program and started to implement that program, what is to protect it; that is, that it's not stolen, I guess, by some other institution? Because of the time NAIT has been in place in this province, they are probably in a better position to gain these programs than Westerra is. The question to the minister is: in the estimates and the underlying process for the allocation, is there any way to protect the programs Westerra wishes to implement in the near future?

There will be other oppor­ tunities to discuss with the minister some of the directions of Westerra as soon as the consultants report to the board and the board reports, through me, to the minister. The last point I want to raise with the minister is the Students Finance Board. While I appreciate the figures the minister has put out and appreciate what we have done for student financing in this province — we know it's the highest in Canada for students — I still have some concerns with the policy that each application, also depending on age, is applicable to the parents' income.

When I look at an 18- or 19-year-old, who is supposed to be an adult, going for future training and then out into the job market,I think this policy should be very seriously considered. Why should the parents' income be included in the student's application? I think the majority of our students are responsible enough that they should have the ability to borrow that full sum of money to put them through their continuing education. I have quite a file on these, where students have been turned down because of the sum the parents have.

As I understand the situation, I don't think the parents' income is investigated that fully. You may show X number of dollars on a T-4 slip or whatever it is, but who's to say that those parents haven't a commitment on that X number of dollars they are now earning and maybe hadn't considered the children's further education before the investments were made? With those couple of points, Mr. Chairman, I would ask the minister to review these matters. MR. R. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I have just a few comments to make, and they're all favourable because the minister and his staff have made it that way.

I can't see anything where I could be other than favourable. As I say, when I mention staff, my constituents throughout Lacombe and I are very appreciative of the reception they've received from the minister and his staff. Randy, Sharon, and Arlene are to be complimented for the way they handle the public and quickly respond to all requests they get from my office and my constituents, and I'd like that to be known today. This department provides a very high calibre of facilities throughout the province.

They compare very favourably with anywhere in Canada, and I think this has a direct relationship to the interest of this government and the minister in particular. One of the things I am very pleased with in this year's estimates for the Department of Advanced Education is the decision to provide funding for King's College. King's College, as you may all know — or some of you may not know — is located in Edmonton and provides a very worthwhile educational program for Albertans. They began as a private college with their own funding. They provided their own funding and built up a reputation.

The calibre of education is excellent, and the students that have come through that system are good examples of well-educated Albertans going out into the world, into the work force. I am pleased that the minister has been receptive to their request and in this year's budget has recognized these people and the wonderful program they have for young Albertans. On the agriculture scene, it's also nice to see that Advanced Education recognizes the contribution Olds College makes to agriculture. Olds College makes a tremendous contribution to our agriculture education programs right across this province.

I'm very pleased that the department, even in this time of restraint, has come out and built a new library, a much-needed library that was held in abeyance because of economic times in the last few years, and I congratulate the minister for putting that in this year's estimates. The other thing I'd like to mention, Mr. Chairman, is the working relationship and the communication lines the department maintains with the officials and personnel in our educational facilities. It is a very worthwhile example of government and the private sector working together in

498 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 harmony. In my particular constituency, I refer to the working relationship between the minister's office and Canadian Union College, which is situated in Lacombe. They have their differences of opinion on occasion, but they are able to work it out. We in the constituency of Lacombe are very appreciative. With those few words, Mr. Chairman, I give my full support to the minister on his estimates and wish him well in the years ahead — that we get the same type of financial contributions coming our way in the constituency of Lacombe. MR.

ANDERSON: First of all, in opening remarks to the hon. minister, I, with other members, would like to con­ gratulate him on a job that has been well done. In my riding we have Mount Royal College, which has received $60 million in funds to expand over the past couple of years. That is much needed and much appreciated. We have also received various other grants to assist the college, and I believe that will help enhance the educational oppor­ tunities for Calgary students to a great degree.

In addition, although the University of Calgary isn't located in my constituency, a good number of my constituents attend and benefit from the progress made there. Because of my specific involvement with some of the youth, I particularly thank the minister for making the decision to fund the expansion of MacEwan Hall, which I know is well appreciated on that campus. I would also like to echo the comments of the hon. Member for Lacombe with respect to the minister's office staff. I congratulate him on the choice of that staff; it's one of the most pleasant offices in the building to deal with.

I don't know whether it's the staff who makes the minister excellent or the minister who has an excellent choice of staff that makes that happen, but it's much appreciated, as is the sensitivity and assistance of that office. Having said that, I have three questions for the minister. The first deals with the funding level at the University of Calgary versus the funding level at the University of Alberta. I know the minister has dealt with that question briefly in question period. With the opportunity he has in this particular debate, I wonder if he might give that question a bit more depth.

I am not entirely satisfied with the answers given in question period. The minister dealt with a point system and the different evaluation as a result of that. Could he expand on that? Is that point system legitimate? Does it indeed speak to a different level of need at the universities because of the specific programs involved? Why is there that funding difference? A surface evaluation of the two universities indicates similar needs in programs and. in some cases at the University of Calgary, expanded needs. Perhaps he could enlighten me in that regard. I know other Calgary members will be interested as well.

The second question deals with the program announced in the budget of his colleague the Minister of Education to assist graduating teachers find temporary jobs. I realize that's not part of the minister's responsibility, but I feel that program is an excellent step toward a more permanent need to have teachers given practical experience over a longer period than the very short experiences they currently have in the courses of education at the universities.

I wonder if the minister would consider funding projects on an ongoing basis at the universities that would perhaps require students to spend a certain amount of time, in excess of what they're now spending, in practical experience in the classroom. I wonder as well. Mr.

Chairman, if the minister might consider that funding approach in other faculties; for example, in the faculty of social welfare, where social workers in many cases currently go directly from high school to university and directly from the university to advising people on how to deal with their lives, without a lot of direct experience except for some limited practicums in that respect. Is there a possibility the department might consider funding intern programs, if you will, or articling programs, those kinds of approaches we know of with law and accounting, in other human-related degree programs?

The third is with respect to the women's council. I note that statements have recently been made that that is a definite possibility in the near future. There are constituents in my area who would be interested in knowing what the time frame is and whether the minister is in a position to indicate when such a council might be proposed to the Assembly. I'd be interested in hearing that. The only final comment is to echo that of my seatmate from Stony Plain regarding student funding.

I think we do an excellent job with student funding in the province, but I too have had concerns about requirements related to the parents' income. Having been in personal circumstances that indicated other needs, I wonder if the minister is again going to look at that area. With those questions, I thank the minister again for his support over the past while and commend him for the work that's been done. MR. WOO: Mr. Chairman, I would like to raise with the minister two areas of interest.

Firstly, my comments are based on some of the representations that have been made to us as members of the Assembly; that is, with respect to the committee on the status of women. I'm wondering if the minister could advise the committee as to the time frame in terms of those representations, particularly with respect to the establishment of a council and other matters that have been placed before him in that regard. Secondly, Mr.

Chairman, in this instance I want to commend the minister and his department for the very relevant initiatives they have taken in terms of advanced education, particularly with respect to innovative projects and programs. The ones I am particularly interested in relate to the philosophy reflected in the latest release from his office with respect to setting up an educational computer network which will serve students, teachers, and farmers throughout the province.

The philosophy that I think is very important and relates to my question is not only the com­ mitment on the part of his department and the government and our university sector but also that of the private sector. In that respect I wonder if the minister will be undertaking some initiative with regard to possibly establishing programs, particularly in the technology and scientific areas, where private-sector industry might be persuaded to play a greater role, not only in terms of setting out future goals and objectives but in terms of funding.

I recognize that in order to function for the greatest benefit to Albertans, universities perhaps need to be able to project on a longer term basis the activities of their respective universities based on the amounts of funding that would be available to them, not so much on a one- or two-year basis but, let us say, on a five- to 10-year basis.

I think the allocation of funds in that manner would create a situation where the total overall planning undertaken by the department and its officials and the universities and the private sector would perhaps become more meaningful in terms of long-range future objectives. I leave it at that for the moment, Mr. Chairman. Hopefully the minister will be able to provide some indication in regard to both of those.

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 499 MR. GOGO: First of all, the minister made reference to various people in his department. As the Member for Lethbridge West, I would like the minister to know how very pleased I've been in the past year with the co-operation of the department, particularly with reference to the deputy, Henry Kolesar. I think we're unique in Alberta, where at any time members can call any of the officials, certainly of the Department of Advanced. Education, and get advice. He's been extremely helpful to me and to those who have institutions in their constituencies. Also, I'd like to mention Mr.

Hemingway with regard to student finances. We seem to get many calls from students regarding their applications for student financing. I guess that's one of the good problems with regard to having an institution. I want the minister to know that when a call is placed to Mr. Hemingway, there is invariably a quick response and on many occasions a positive response. As the committee knows, we have in place the student appeal board, and I'd like to commend that student appeal board as well, because they seem to respond very quickly.

Just over a year ago I recall that everybody, including the opposition and the University of Alberta, was waving flags about the great demands coming on the system with student enrollment and how the capacity of that great flagship of the academic world, the U of A, wasn't going to be able to respond. I recall the minister at that time projecting a student enrollment increase, and I'm pleased today to see that he was right on. The pundits, the so-called experts who make their living at prognostications, were totally out of whack.

I don't know whether they read the Journal or the Journal talked to them, but they were clearly out of whack and the minister's department was right on with regard to the prediction, the accurate forecasting of what that enrollment would be. I don't think we should forget that in the future. Reference was made to King's College. As one of those who has lobbied and tried to influence the minister for a positive response, I have to agree that I'm encouraged that funding is available this year. I would wave a word of caution, though, and I'm sure the minister would concur.

I urge the board of King's College — as you know, government is sometimes a great friend, but it works two ways: once you become embroiled with government and start accepting funds, please understand that you then become dependent on the system. One of the major characteristics of King's College over the years was that it was able to function very smoothly at arm's length from government, without funding. Nonetheless, the wisdom of government, in response to demand, is to support them with a quarter of a million dollars for this year.

As. the Member for Lacombe has put the point, it's welcome, it's needed, and next year who knows what's going to happen. Mr. Chairman, I think the University of Lethbridge is a very unique institution. It's clearly one of the finest liberal arts undergraduate institutions in the country. The track record of those who have gone through the system is well known. They've gone on to far greater things, and I think they're a credit to a lot of people, certainly the board of governors.

I think comments should be made regarding the people who devote a tremendous amount of their time to our four universities and 10 public colleges. Most, if not all. of them have other obligations in life, like earning a living and raising families, and yet they seem to find time, indeed make time, to operate their institutions under the Universities Act. Certainly, Mr. O'Connell at Lethbridge along with the chancellor, Dr. Russell, and Mr. Dick Haney of the Lethbridge Community College are devoting a tre­ mendous amount of time, and I know the minister appreciates their leadership.

As a matter of fact, I'm pleased to say that he was in Lethbridge on April 12. I'll make some comments about what he had in his pocket in a moment. He was there specifically to recognize the role these people play within our community, and at that time the previous chairman of the board of governors, Mr. Phil North, was able to leave with wide acclaim and get back to earning a living and supporting that family of his. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to mention that the University of Lethbridge, which has over 2,500 students, has had to meet demands, as have other institutions, in the province.

To do that, they had to have some funding other than the normal operating grant, which I'm pleased to see this year is approaching $20 million; the Lethbridge Community College is very close to $10 million. They had to have extra funds. They made a strong case, they convinced the people who are required to convince the other people, who in turn convince the government, and the minister responded very gratuitously with those extra dollars to meet a pressing need. I guess the case has to be made: let's not expect this to occur on a regular basis.

We had an unusual situation with a tremendous influx of students, and again, that shows a government that responds when you have a lineup at your doors. When the demand is there, the government responds. Let's not try to enshrine these things in legislation, where you box in government on certain formulas, but try to adapt those budgets to the needs of the day. As well, when the minister was there he found time to tour the Max Bell Aquatic Centre, which truly puts the University of Lethbridge on the map in terms of an operating university with an athletic program.

The Max Bell Aquatic Centre will be second to none, and I want to comment in a moment with regard to the Endowment Fund. The minister didn't mention it, and I suppose he didn't mention it because he doesn't have in place a successor to the program. In a moment I'd like to put to the minister the question of what may be down the line with regard to the matching Endow­ ment Fund. This is probably the best time of any, Mr. Chairman, to talk of needs within the community. The University of Lethbridge clearly needs a student union centre. They have strong demands with regard to residence requirements.

They have what I believe is a mature group of students, which probably deals with the question raised by the Member for Calgary Currie: if indeed they're mature, why do they have to go through certain hoops with regard to financing; why can't they be on their own recognizance without involving the parents? Clearly, a student union facility is needed at the University of Lethbridge. The minister may choose to respond as to what he feels should be in place. Mr. Chairman, the University of Alberta and the Univer­ sity of Calgary we know have tremendous enrollments.

One wonders, though, when youngsters from around the province experience the life-styles experienced in the capital city and the competing city to the south, if there are not students who would really do far better or want to experience an undergraduate institution like the liberal arts University of Lethbridge. For that reason, I wonder if the minister could share with us what incentives there are, if any, to encourage students from around the province to attend a place like the University of Lethbridge. I know that in the past we had a program in place for rural students to attend the major universities.

I don't want to go on ad nauseam, but something close to my heart, and certainly the minister's heart, concerns

500 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 the Canadian long-baseline array project, which originated in Lethbridge. Other people now appear to want it. I'd like to make a final appeal to the minister's influence and recognize what a facility of $70 million would do in a community like Lethbridge. Who would notice it in Calgary? I don't think it would make the press with a billion dollar Olympics coming up. Clearly, if this government is com­ mitted to the diversification principle of smaller communities around this province, it should be a given that the CLBA should be in a community like Lethbridge.

I don't understand why it should be argued. Surely, Calgary, you've got enough; you may not have the capability, but you've got enough. I apologize to the member for Calgary Egmont, because I know how strongly he feels about CLBA. Mr. Minister, I wonder if we couldn't again get on to those people in Ottawa who, for a variety of reasons, have chosen not to proceed with the long-baseline array. Mr. Chairman, with regard to the Students Finance Board, reference was made a moment ago to not enough funds being available or the distribution of funds.

It's interesting to note that there's a 66 percent increase, to over $100 million, in student finances for the upcoming year. That's remarkable when you increase something by two-thirds. It's also interesting to note that the remission of loans has reached an all-time high of some $30 million. I think this relates to questions raised earlier by those people who say that if a youngster is 18, has reached the age of majority, why is the parent involved? That may be explained under vote 2, where default of loans — we term it something else; we say implementation guarantees.

Implementation guarantees only come about as a result of default, when people don't pay. This year this government has guaranteed over $6 million for those who default on paying their loans. Mr. Chairman, I think it's only fair to raise with the committee, and this may well be the minister's argument, that people who commit themselves to borrowing funds to educate themselves, supposedly to go on to earn good livings, are somehow failing to repay those loans. Now, $6.5 million is taxpayers' money, not government money or heritage fund money. It's the people of Alberta's money.

How are we going to be able to offer financial assistance in the future unless we have some provision for the collection or repayment of those loans? Maybe that answers the question for those who think that students in this province should be able to obtain those loans on their own recognizance, without the involvement of parents. I issue a word of caution. If we're not going to see $6.5 million repaid, that's taxpayers' money and perhaps there should be a review of the process of those who are not repaying. Heaven knows; we make it very easy.

There's no repayment necessary for six months after graduation, which in some cases is extended to a year, and it's interest-free for all that time. It's only interest-free to the student; it's not interest-free to the taxpayers of Alberta. They are the ones who this year are going to pay almost $10 million in interest for those student loans. Mr. Chairman, there are two final points I'd like to raise with the minister. The matching Endowment Fund has to be one of the great success stories of the province of Alberta, that $80 million committed by the government on a matching basis.

It's been used up several years ahead of schedule. The obvious question, of course, is: what is next? Is there a replacement for that matching fund? We now have people in this province convinced that they indeed have a vested interest in advanced education. Could we as members of the committee not indicate to the minister our sincere desire to see a successor to the matching Endowment Fund? Perhaps the minister could comment on that in his response. The final comment, Mr. Chairman, is with regard to the future role of universities.

As members know, this year the government published the white paper on an industrial and science strategy. In it there are very clear indications of what universities should be looking at; i.e., what role do they have to play? At the public hearings, 200 groups appeared and made various presentations to that committee of our colleagues. When you look at the autonomy under the Universities Act, one wonders about them determining their future.

Yet the role of the government, which after all represents the people in funding those institutions — what is going to be the policy of the government with regard to any new direction, if any, with regard to uni­ versities? Recently we heard in a ministerial statement from the Minister of Economic Affairs some exciting news on technology through the universities. Perhaps the minister could respond as to his view on whether there should be a shift in emphasis or direction or focus of our postsecondary institutions. Mr.

Chairman, with those comments I want to say that I think it's been a very successful year in advanced education from the perspective of Lethbridge West. Many of us, and I think I was one of the group, wondered last year what we were going to do with this great demand of student enrollment on the horizon as a result of the economic downturn and the lack of jobs. I think we've got through the year very successfully, and certainly we got through it with the co-operation and the assistance of the minister's department.

Based on the estimates of almost one billion dollars for 10 public colleges and four universities, I think this government's funding of advanced education is far superior to anywhere in Canada. Thank you. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, I want to make one or two points and ask a few questions, but most of them have been covered. First of all, I want to ask the minister what information he can give the committee as to what fee increases are proposed for the students at the university level. It seems we're now talking about an increase in fees.

I don't know if it's a general impression out there that fees will increase as high as 3 percent in some of the universities or if that's just a bad rumour. The second question I'd like to ask the minister is: what information does he have as to some of the apprenticeship programs at Westerra? The criticism I received from a constituent who is in the machining business is that he feels the people he's getting out there are not ready to go to work. He seems to feel their training is inadequate. They require a lot of supervision.

Of course, this was also brought to my attention by people who came especially from Ger­ many, where their apprenticeship programs are very, very strict. They are well-trained craftsmen, and they felt our programs were not quite up to par. The point of students loans and the Students Finance Board has been raised. I guess the question most young people ask is: "When am I,finally an independent adult? I haven't lived at home for five years.

I'm completely independent, but my mother and father's income come into the equation as to whether or not I'm eligible for a loan." I know we've made some progress in that area. I raised that question several years ago, and some positive steps have been taken.

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 501 Mr. Chairman, the other point I'd like to make to the minister is the very important role I think the junior colleges play in our educational system in this province. I went to British Columbia, as I do just about every year before or after session to touch base with another supposedly free- enterprise government, and had the privilege of meeting with one of their deputy ministers. It was very interesting. Within one hour he gave me a complete rundown on how our junior colleges evolved in this province and how they evolved in British Columbia.

This man had done either his masters or PhD thesis on this, and it was really quite interesting to see that the two system's of colleges evolved about the same time, but the Pacific Northwest influence on the British Columbia junior colleges was very, very apparent. He compared the two systems and tried to indicate the advantages and disadvantages. They are both working well, but they seem to fill a unique need for that part of Canada as compared to ours. I'm pleased that more and more young Albertans are taking advantage of the smaller colleges.

Even though they say there should not be discrimination between the sexes, we know that a young woman going to university for the first year is much more socially and mentally mature than a young male. So many people sort of get lost at the large universities in Edmonton and Calgary, and of course the day will come even in Lethbridge. Some of these young people feel much more comfortable in the junior college situation. I think that's an excellent program. The question of students not paying their student loans bothers me, the same as it does the hon. Member for Lethbridge West. His concerns were well expressed.

There is the also question of 3AU funding. I am sure the minister and his department are looking at a program to take its place or to continuing it. I think we in Alberta expect government to do everything. This was the oppor­ tunity for Albertans who had graduated from our universities to get involved and give something back to their alma maters, and I'd like the minister to bring us up to date on what we'll be using to replace those 3AU funds. Mr.

Chairman, with those few remarks I would like to say to the minister that I, too, feel we have one of the best postsecondary education systems in Canada right here in our province, and we want to make sure it remains that way. Thank you. MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Chairman, I too am pleased that I can join the discussion of the estimates for the Department of Advanced Education.

As a member from the Edmonton region, we certainly have excellent facilities when we look at the University of Alberta, the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, Grant MacEwan College, Westerra, and a number of junior colleges such as King's College and Concordia. As members for the area, we all receive requests or approaches with regard to their projected demands. All are looking at student enrollments, space, programming, and required funding in order to deliver the mandate each has.

The question I'd like to raise with the minister this morning is whether or not any consideration has been given by the minister or officials in the department to bringing the respective boards together to rationalize these projected enrollments so that there's no duplication and overlapping in regard to how each institution is extending itself into the community.

I think competition is good, but when it deals with overlapping of programs and space requirements, some­ times all the institutions need to sit down and look at how it is best to articulate and interchange, so that whatever they are doing is student-oriented rather than trying to preserve the institution's own little domain. Often an insti­ tution becomes very protectionist in its attitude, and some of this is good. If there's pride in the institution, pride in what they're doing, that's fine.

But sometimes it can become self-serving, and I think there is a requirement in the Edmonton region for such a convening of the different boards and presidents to see what can be done so that there's an overall strategy and plan with regard to the delivery of advanced education to the young people of this region. [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] In a recent meeting with the University of Alberta board of governors, we frequently heard the request for long- range planning through a longer budgeting time line.

I'm wondering if this has ever been given a thorough examination to see whether or not this is a feasible approach. I know that government has to live with budgeting on a year-to- year basis, but has the concept ever been given a thorough investigation to see what its merits might be? Also, in dealing with the University of Alberta we all recognize it as the oldest and longest standing institution in the province.

It has a significant number of older buildings, and as a result when many of our other institutions are dealing with capital budgets, they do not see the restoration or the refurbishing of older buildings as a prime concern. I wonder if the minister or officials have given consideration to a program similar to what was initiated with school boards, called the building quality restoration program, where there was a capital budget dedicated to refurbishing and renovating older buildings.

If such a plan were initiated, the dollars would then be for this purpose and would not be siphoned off from the regular capital dollars the institution would receive. With regard to Grant MacEwan College, I understand the minister has received a submission from the board of governors with regard to student demands, program devel­ opments, the impact on present and future facilities, and the request for planning funds on both a short- and a long- term basis.

I raise the question: has an assessment been made of that report, and where are we with regard to some of the short-term plans that have been raised by Grant MacEwan College? Lastly, I'd like to raise some comments and questions in an entirely different area. As a member of the Legislative Offices Committee, I would like to raise some questions with regard to the International Ombudsman Institute, situated at the University of Alberta. It is my understanding that the Department of Advanced Education has contributed, in an ad hoc way, $50,000 a year over the past five years to the Ombudsman Institute.

Yet as a member of the committee, I have never seen a budget or financial statement. I think this raises a number of questions with regard to the institute. What dollars are contributed to the institute, let's say, on the international level, from other countries? What dollars are contributed to the institute from other provinces in Canada? How are the dollars expended? Has an assessment ever been made with regard to how the institute functions, how staff are involved or hired? Does it justify the dollar commitment from the government of Alberta?

Should the funding come from Advanced Education as opposed to, let's say, the Legislative Offices Committee or the office of the Ombudsman? As a member of this committee there seems to be no accountability somewhere.

502 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 In short, Mr. Minister, I suggest that there be a review of the institute as to precisely what the Alberta government's involvement is and what ought to be done in terms of the current circumstances. As a member of the committee I suggest that we take an overview as to what we've done in the past and what we ought to be looking at in the future. In closing, Mr. Chairman, I too would like to echo a word of commendation to officials within the department.

As chairman of the Edmonton caucus I've had a good working relationship with officials in the department, and I can also echo on behalf of the chairmen of the various boards that they, too, have found an excellent working relationship with officials. I hope that continues. I guess the best way to indicate how some of the institutions are operating together — I had the happy occasion to attend the NAIT Ookpiks/University of Alberta Golden Bears game. It was really interesting to see how the two institutions, the two student bodies, worked together.

Although it was only a hockey game, if it can be done at a hockey game it could certainly be done with regard to how the institutions operate for the betterment of the citizens of Edmonton. MR. McPHERSON: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if you've noticed, but I have: it seems to me there's been a golden thread weaving through the comments of all members this morning, with the possible exception of the Member for Clover Bar, whose well-directed comments didn't include a commendation to the members of the ministerial staff. So far every member has made some comment toward the efforts put forth by the minister's staff.

Those of us who have educational institutions in our constituencies all rec­ ognize the fine efforts put forth by many members. I'd also like to express my appreciation to people like Dr. Kolesar, Mr. Hemingway, Randy, Sharon, Arlene, and all those people who really assist us in our efforts on behalf of our constituents. Mr. Chairman, I guess my comments today are going to be related to two areas; first, the Red Deer College, which celebrated its 20th anniversary last year. Things are going exceedingly well at Red Deer College.

I'll note now that I'm grateful for the minister's efforts with regard to coming through Red Deer, meeting with the board of governors of Red Deer College, certainly on one occasion and perhaps on others, over the past year. The dialogue is important. I know the board is grateful for it. Mr. Chairman, Red Deer College is very similar to many colleges in the province. The minister mentioned that there has been an 11.9 percent increase in enrollment in public colleges throughout Alberta, and that's bang on to last year's 12 percent increase at the Red Deer College.

I do notice, however, that over the past five years Red Deer College has experienced a dramatic increase in enrollment, at the rate of some 61 percent. It's an astonishing set of circumstances, how many people are returning to postsec­ ondary institutions to upgrade their level of education. It brings me to the question of operating funding. I don't mean this as a disparaging remark; I simply ask the question of the minister. I look at Public Colleges — Operating in the

summary of the elements of the estimates and notice that the increases, while they're all increases, are all over the block. Some colleges are receiving 3.4 percent, as in the case of the Red Deer College. Some — for example, Lethbridge College is receiving a 6.5 percent increase. I wonder if the minister might explain the disparity. I assume it's enrollment-driven. On the other hand, I think about the special funding available for enrollments at the end of the year. I wonder if the minister might comment on that point.

The greatest increase in Red Deer College over the past year or so has been in the area of the college preparatory program and university transfer courses. That's grown at an astronomical rate, and that's good. Of course, there's been a decrease in the apprenticeship enrollment as a result of the past downturn in the economy. I notice that Red Deer College is now offering pre-enrollment programs, and has for some time, in a variety of areas: electricians, carpenters, heavy-duty mechanics, and what have you.

I wonder if the minister might be prepared to comment on what he anticipates for the future of these kinds of programs. While this is not in the area of the minister's specific purview, I feel I'd like to make a very brief comment on Series '85, which operates in conjunction with the Depart­ ment of Culture. It's a very popular program in Red Deer. Red Deer College has been favoured with hosting that program for nigh onto three, four, or five years — I'm not sure which. Perhaps I could make a small plug. There's a lobby afoot to make Red Deer College the permanent location of that particular series.

I'll make that comment in the Minister of Culture's estimates. Mr. Chairman, I mentioned that Red Deer College celebrated its 20th anniversary last year. On that occasion I had the good fortune to attend and participate in the formal recognition and designation of the team teaching theatre under the name of the founder of Red Deer College, Dr. Margaret Parsons, who, most regrettably, has passed away since that time. To all the people in Red Deer I want to comment on the really incredible contribution to Red Deer College that Dr. Parsons made over the years.

We certainly are pleased to recognize her in a very small way at Red Deer College by naming the team teaching theatre after her. Perhaps a comment could be quickly made on the Red Deer College Foundation. It's a fairly newly established foundation that's working very diligently in the area of raising funds in the private sector. They've appointed a full-time project funding officer and have raised some $15,000 in the community, and that's a laudable effort.

On the same weekend at the end of March as a well-known and well- attended provincial political annual meeting in the city of Edmonton, which was attended by some 2,500 people, Red Deer College Foundation held their first annual charity ball. It, in turn, was well attended and was a good event. The other quick comment with regard to Red Deer College is on the Arts Centre being developed at the college. It's a 585-seat theatre and teaching complex, a most impor­ tant component to the cultural activities in the city of Red Deer. Mr.

Chairman, a few comments directed towards the Department of Advanced Education in a number of areas. I want to start with student assistance. A number of com­ ments have been made by members with regard to student assistance. Frankly, I'm rather astonished to look at the results in terms of assistance for students in this province. The minister made mention that there's an increase this year of 66.5 percent. That's an astronomical increase, but it's heightened when you look at last year's increase.

I looked at my notes from last year, and I noticed that student assistance increased in the '83-84 year by 91 percent. Can the minister clarify if, in fact, a 91 percent increase in one year has been followed directly on the heels by another increase of 66 percent? If that's the case, clearly there's

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 503 an enormous effort and dedication towards the student assistance program in this province. I might have a minor exception with some of the comments made by other members, but I'd be most interested in hearing the minister's comments on it. I have no difficulty whatsoever with the area of student finance, but I wonder how far government should go or really has to go in vacating the field completely of any parental responsibility in the area of student assistance.

From time to time we get this comment that public education is a public respon­ sibility, and I think the commitment by this government demonstrates that. But when one thinks of the amount of money that is provided by the taxpayer for advanced edu­ cation in this province, the enormous funding available, and when one looks at the amount of remissions available — the Member for Lethbridge West mentioned $30 million in remissions this year — clearly there's a significant taxpayer contribution in the area of student assistance.

I'm not so sure how far the taxpayer should be asked to go in ensuring that a physician, lawyer, stockbroker, or well-educated indi­ vidual who has a terrific opportunity in this province for high income — how far should the taxpayer be asked to support that particular area? In the area of total funding, I wonder if the minister could clarify one area for me. I notice that he's got an overall budget of some $939 million this year, recognizing that that includes operating, program support, capital, and everything.

My understanding is that last year, there were some 67,000 people enrolled in the advanced education system, the postsecondary educational institutions. I did a quick calculation, and that comes out to $13,861 per pupil in this province. Maybe my numbers are wrong; I don't know where they are. But if we look at the overall com­ mitment to the Department of Advanced Education in the area of per pupil commitment, we're looking at $13,861. If we go to operating only, we find that the operating budget this year is $133,286,686.

If we divide that number by the total number of students in the system, we come up with operating assistance in the area of $1,966. Is the minister telling us in these estimates that the taxpayer is contributing $1,966 per pupil in the area of operating grants? If that's true, and I guess it is, I wonder if the minister could relate for my benefit and perhaps others in the committee how much of the operating grants in this province is directly dedicated to wages and salaries in the system. I'd be interested in that number. I did one other quick calculation while I was sitting here, Mr. Chairman.

I determined the total amount of funding for the department, including capital, operating, program support, and what have you. I tried to determine the per capita contribution to advanced education. I came up with the number of about $408. My family has four people, so I guess my particular contribution to the Depart­ ment of Advanced Education is some $1,200, and that's fine. But there are 2.3 million people in all of Alberta, and let's not forget that each and every person — man, woman, and child — is making a contribution of some $400 to the Department of Advanced Education. Mr.

Chairman, those are just a few of the comments I wanted to make and questions I had. My final one would again be directed specifically towards Red Deer College to congratulate the members of the board of the college. In this instance I think it's appropriate to particularly compliment the chairman of the board of Red Deer College, Ed [Makarenko] of Red Deer, whose term of service on the board expires in June and who has made a big commitment to the college over six years. He should be commended, as should all members of the board, admin­ istration, and faculty. Finally, I would also like to con­ gratulate Dr.

Ed Luterbach, who was recently appointed the new president of Red Deer College. He has been the acting president and has now been formally appointed by Red Deer College. I wish Red Deer College well in their future endeavours, and I look forward to the comments of the minister. MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to enter the debate on the financial estimates of the Department of Advanced Education. I want to begin by commending the Minister of Advanced Education for continuing to respond to the needs of our students at the postsecondary institutions throughout the entire province.

Throughout the years, I've had the opportunity to visit many of our facilities throughout the province. I am very, very pleased with the staff, students, and definitely the programs I have touched upon as I've met these various people throughout many of the postsec­ ondary institutions in Alberta. There are many positive areas I could talk about in the area of advanced education, and I'd like to allude to a few if I could this afternoon. First of all, I think the continued excellent programs of financial assistance to students must be praised.

Thousands of students in Alberta benefit from this particular department and rightly so. It can truly be said that lack of finances should not be a deterrent for students to further their education in this province, and I believe that to be so. The grants, bursaries, prizes, and scholarships are so plentiful. I believe this instills a feeling of excellence on behalf of our many youth, young adults, and adults who attend our postsecondary institutions from one end of the province to the other. I'd like to congratulate the minister for his financial support of King's College.

The concerns due to lack of funding in the past, expressed to me by students, their parents, and many staff members, were passed on to the minister. The minister has indeed responded and deserves our congratulations for that. Another point deals with the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, situated in the constituency. As far as I'm concerned, it continues to lead many postsecondary insti­ tutions in a multitude of ways. First of all, the environment at the institute is so very positive to learning. A great number of graduates continue to find employment, even though in 1985 it is very difficult to obtain.

I looked at the statistics recently, and the graduates continue to have tremendous success in finding their places in the work force. I am pleased to thank the minister for the substantial funds that have been presented to NAIT for the building of a student lounge, which will be opened in the next couple of weeks. I think this shows the minister's concern not only for programs, curricula, et cetera, but for the quality of life at many of our postsecondary institutions, which I think has been understressed in the past.

When you look at thousands arid thousands of people bunching up in some of our institutions, it's nice to see that a priority has been established at NAIT to open up an area for students to breathe, talk, communicate, et cetera. On another point I want also to thank the minister for altering the Alberta Rutherford Scholarship requirements to once again include Math 31 as a requirement. I think this has made a lot of students and professional educators happy. I have a few specific questions for the minister. First of all, could the minister comment on the future master

504 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 plan for NAIT? Has the minister identified any future needs for NAIT that perhaps he could allude to today? Secondly, would the minister spend some time discussing the take-up of the Alberta heritage scholarship program? Since its incep­ tion, has the program grown beyond or below his particular expectations? Thirdly, there is a growing number of native students attending our postsecondary institutions. Does the minister have any statistics on whether the numbers are growing substantially? It is my understanding that the num­ bers are still quite small.

Has the minister or his department officials studied the situation, and does he have any comments at all in this area? Finally, English as a Second Language programs are still in need and definitely required in this province. Is the minister contemplating any new initiatives at all in this area? Mr. Chairman, to the minister, his department officials, and staff, a resounding thank-you for continuing to respond to students of all ages in our fantastic postsecondary insti­ tutional programs. MRS. FYFE: Mr.

Chairman, first I would also add my words of compliments to the minister and his staff In fact, one example last week: his ministerial assistant was able to act so very quickly that I received both a call and a letter of appreciation for helping to sort out a troublesome problem with the Students Finance Board. So I pass on publicly the appreciation for trying to deal with the small problems that arise from time to time. It helps not only the members of the Legislature but obviously the people that we represent. It's duly noted and appreciated.

I also would like to add my words of compliment on the minister's ability to read crystal balls, accurately forecast, or however he based his information related to student enrollments. He certainly was proven to be most credible in his predictions. My question relates to this year. There was a great deal of anxiety in students coming out of high school last year, and a number of these students chose to remain for an additional term to upgrade their marks rather than apply, particularly for the university level.

Does the minister foresee any bulge this year that will cause any degree of difficulty that may be worthy of comment in the Legislature? Another area I would like to comment on relates to the vast facilities we have in postsecondary education across the province. I'm thinking particularly of the technical institutions.

It seems to me that at a time when technology is changing so dramatically and it's very difficult to predict how many programs currently offered will be relevant in future years — and the same problem exists for the basic education structures, the high schools — have there ever been discussions between advanced education and basic education officials related to a utilization of some of these technical facilities on a regional basis, whereby rather than high school programs trying to duplicate the facilities, students could travel to regional centres to utilize facilities on a short-term basis?

It's something that happens in the United Kingdom, where there is a sharing of facilities, not necessarily between the basic and advanced but between students who are more in apprenticeship programs. I wonder if it was something the minister has considered or has had any discussions on. One of the opportunities I had this last year was to visit a program at the University of Calgary and participate in a teleconferencing class.

This was teleconferencing in edu­ cation and touched base with students from as far north as the Peace River area to the Banff-Cochrane area west of Calgary to Drumheller, and many centres in between. It's a very exciting concept, and it gave me a better understanding of the very sophisticated communications system that is in place and how effectively it can be used. With the opening of Athabasca University, which is a distance educational facility opening this year, it's something that obviously can be accommodated, not just by the distance learning institution but also by our other institutions.

I most appreciated visiting, participating in, and seeing the potential in this teleconfer­ encing system of learning. I appreciate the funding that was provided for private colleges, but I would like to have a further explanation as to how this policy would apply to private colleges in the future. What control would there be on private colleges' programming, recognizing that public dollars will be sup­ porting those programs? Will the funding policy accom­ modate any future colleges in the future? Is it meant to be a long-term funding policy?

One last area I would like to comment on relates to the co-ordination and communication between postsecondary institutions — and I emphasize particularly the universities — and the rest of the community. This has been touched on by members of the Legislature. I personally recognize the cherished tradition of academic freedom, which the universities hold so dearly, as something we must all support and cherish. On the other hand, there are great resources at the universities that I believe should be harnessed to a greater extent with the private sector and also with government.

It seems to me that there is a need to find a catalyst to encourage greater interaction with the profes­ sionals and specialists at the university and the community, everyone outside the universities. Once again we are entering a new phase. The Minister of Advanced Education was certainly a very integral part of the process of the white paper development. He has a very broad understanding of the economic factors within the province and also a very good handle on the wealth of resources at our academic institutions.

I think many people in the private sector could benefit by harnessing some of those resources in a co-operative way. I think there are advantages for the universities, other postsecondary insti­ tutions, and the community as a whole. I would like to see some way that we could find better communication, co­ ordination, and dialogue that would result in an improved relationship between those three major partners within our community. The universities have taken some steps to find exchange programs, particularly with the Pacific Rim countries.

This is a good step, but I understand that we're certainly not a leader in this area. Although we have a lot of leadership coming from government, it's a very appropriate time for the university staff to plug into this program, which will enhance not only our province but the opportunities available for those universities. With that. Mr. Chairman, I conclude and await the response of the minister. MR. WEISS: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to express a few comments and observations to the minister, particularly in what may go down as his finest hour, with the comments that have been expressed by previous col­ leagues. I would like to thank the minister for the recent con­ stituency tour that took place in the Lac La Biche and McMurray regions. I apologize that I was unable to accom­ modate the minister due to an out-of-province commitment.

April 19, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 505 The minister was kind enough to follow through with that trip and not only observe firsthand but participate and be involved in the various events. I can assure the minister that both the AVC in Lac La Biche and Keyano in Fort McMurray were very pleased to have him there to see firsthand what is happening and, in particular, to have the opportunity to address the students. I would like to report to the minister that the new student housing in Lac La Biche is now completed and the main campus facility is open and fully utilized.

I have some concerns for the minister with regard to the increase in funding. It's noted that it is some 3.9 percent for Keyano College in Fort McMurray. If one were to look at the expenditures, one would certainly note under item 2.5.6. that it is some $12,645,000. While it would appear to be significant, Mr. Chairman, my concern is that with increased enrollment at this time in particular in the area, and for those students who are coming from all parts of Alberta, it's certainly something we should be looking at, considering, and keeping in mind.

We can't always look just at fixed budget increases, particularly in that area, because of what I feel will be a very significant development area in years to come. If one were to follow media reports as recent as just last evening, it was predicted that the tar sands are to provide some 25 percent of the country's proven resource in oil development. That's certainly going to require more adequate training to meet those needs, and I'd like to indicate the emphasis will be on future training of people in those specified fields.

I would certainly ask them to look at that particular area, develop further planning, and re-evaluate the needs that may or may not be required. Some comments were made earlier, by the Member for Lethbridge West in particular, about the Endowment Fund. I'm very pleased with what has happened in both the Lac La Biche and Fort McMurray areas and would certainly encourage the minister to work on a new program to take the place of the existing Endowment Fund. At this time I would like to compliment, through the minister, the public and private sector for their support in this particular area as well. Mr.

Chairman, I am pleased to indicate that I have a cheque for some $76,335, which was delivered to me just this morning and that I will deliver over the weekend to Keyano College. It's in recognition and support of the matched Endowment Fund. To those companies such as Electrolab Ltd., York Instruments, Bearing Supply, Wall's Water Conditioning, and others, it's certainly most gratifying to have these people come forth and assist in the com­ munities. I can assure you, Mr. Minister, that it is a worthwhile program and certainly should be picked up on for the future. I would be remiss, Mr.

Chairman, if I didn't once again emphasize, as I did in my earlier response to the throne speech, the need to develop satellite facilities in areas such as Fort Chipewyan. These areas in particular, remote and native communities, are certainly areas that we should be expanding on. I look at the budget and I don't see anything. If I've missed it, I'd certainly appreciate the minister's bringing it to my attention. Mr. Chairman, the last comment I would like to make is with regard to the student bursary program of some $600,000, administered through the Northern Alberta Devel­ opment Council.

I would like to thank the minister and his department for their co-operation in this particular area. We've found that there was some need to be more flexible, to improvise, and to expand the particular administration and awarding of the funds to meet the needs of the northern citizens and communities. At this time I would like to thank the minister's department, through the minister, for their overall support in what I feel is a very worthwhile program that significantly adds to the overall well-being of northern Alberta residents.

With the individual support to the minister's department and the few concerns I've raised, I too would like to say thank you for a job well done. I once again emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that it may well be the minister's finest hour. MR. HYLAND: I have three quick comments related to student finances. Is the minister having the Students Finance Board review the regulations for student loans?

I'm thinking of examples where the parents are businessmen or farmers, let's say, who have a high gross income but whose net income isn't in the same range, and people who are operating under their own name and don't have a company have to put in the total amount, yet those who have a company put in their net wage paid to themselves. It has created some inequities in that students are not able to get loans because of the way their parents are incorporated or not incorporated. Secondly, Mr. Chairman, I'm not too familiar with the problem, but I have had some calls from constituents.

Two people who had a student loan got married; they had both qualified for a student loan before. Their income didn't change, yet they were disqualified for the loan in the second half of the term. It caused them, at least, a great deal of problems, because they were counting on the two loans coming in. I think that covers most of it, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. MR. COOK: Mr. Chairman, I promise to be very brief I'd like to talk about a couple of things at the University of Alberta and make representation for some new program­ ming.

The two areas I'd like to talk about are the electrical engineering and computing science departments, which both have needs for future development and lend themselves to the economic development strategies outlined in the white paper. I think it's important that we develop a computer literacy program and engineering capacity to attract new facilities like the Bell-Northern labs. I understand they are now running into a shortage of skilled personnel. That's a growth area for us; I think it's important that we look at investing in it. The second area I'd like to talk about briefly is bio­ technology. Mr.

Chairman, that's another area that was identified in the white paper for future development. We have some departments that are not quite as strong as they ought to be in our universities in Alberta. I'm thinking of genetics, for example; it needs a little bit of beefing up. Mr. Chairman, if we look at the goals of the economic strategy paper, which were discussed last year and this year, I think it's important that we identify those areas in postsecondary education that can be a strength for the transfer of technology to the private sector and make us more competitive. I was told before I was to sit down, Mr.

Chairman, that the hon. Member for Drayton Valley appreciates the funding for the Pembina consortium. The consortia have not been mentioned in the remarks so far, but they've done a tremendous job. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a question and make a proposal to the minister about soft funding for enrollment increases. I had a chat with the minister in the hall earlier.

506 ALBERTA HANSARD April 19, 1985 Some universities are having difficulty taking those soft funds, which we in this Chamber know are there as long as the students are there. The administrations seem unwilling to make projections and hire staff for longer than a one- year sessional contract. It makes it difficult to attract good- quality lecturers.

I think it's possible for us to undertake to provide that soft funding for a period of, say, five years, and then have a review at the end of that period, but make it possible for a university or college to go out and attract some good-quality personnel by giving them a five-year contract which could be terminated if the enrollments decline. Mr. Chairman, I think the minister has done a superb job visiting the various boards and groups across the prov­ ince. I'd like to compliment him on that and wish him well in the next year. MR. SHRAKE: Mr.

Chairman, the hour is getting a little late, but I still wish to get up and express my appreciation to the minister, especially for the attention he has given all the advanced education and learning institutions in the city of Calgary. When we had the downturn in the economy in Calgary, we had a real influx of students to all our advanced education institutions, and it created a terrific demand for funding. I appreciate the minister's response. I know Mount Royal College got a little additional money. I think it satisfied them. I hope the minister will elaborate on that.

I've got to say this: the University of Calgary's student newspaper, the Gauntlet, expressed kind words about the minister. I'll tell you, I went to that university and that university newspaper doesn't often say kind words about provincial government people. So he must have done some­ thing right. I hope you'll comment briefly on the progress of the new student union building. I think there have been some good things happening there. Regarding SAIT, I am very pleased that the minister resolved the autonomy issue for the College of Art. I hope he will let us know how the autonomy has progressed.

They had a lot of problems getting autonomy there, and I think it's come a long way. I must speak briefly on the Alberta Vocational Centre. This is something which is very dear to me. In fact, this is in my constituency, but it serves the entire city. There has been such a huge demand for job training in the city of Calgary. Unemployment is at a record high. A lot of people have had to be retrained, and it has really created a strain on the facilities at AVC.

I don't know if the members realize it — it's not often in the limelight like the University of Calgary and the University of Alberta — but a couple of thousand people a day go through that Alberta Vocational Centre. The students go there for their training. I hope they have adequate funds to do the job that has to be done, because there is a big job. I know they have a very adequate, dedicated staff, and I'm really pleased. In addition, they've got the former president of Fairview College, Dr. Fred Speckeen, and he is a prince of a man. I've been very impressed with him. He is very dedicated.

In fact, he contacted me, we arranged a meeting, and he came out to my area and sat down. He met with the leaders of a lot of the cultural groups, the people who have a real demand for English as a Second Language. He was very concerned. His personal interest in this has been awfully high, and I really appreciate the person. Lastly, I want to thank the minister for meeting with the leaders of the Vietnamese society in Calgary. He met with them in his office here.

He was kind enough to fly to Calgary, out of his busy schedule, and meet with them to personally assess the need, the demand for English as a Second Language. Then he was back again and met with the staff at Alberta Vocational Centre and me. It was a good meeting. There are a lot of good things happening there. He has also conducted a survey into the needs and the way to meet these needs of the thousands of new Calgarians who cannot yet speak English fluently. He did a study on it, and I know he's trying to meet the challenge there.

If the demand is so high that the facilities at Alberta Vocational Centre become strained or overcrowded and cannot handle the demand, I hope he will be willing to consider looking at creating satellite classes. To wrap up, I want to thank the minister for the personal attention he's given to the problems in Calgary with our advanced educational institutions. There have been a lot of problems, and I know he's put in a lot of hours on them. But I think he's done a good job. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MRS. KOPER: I shall be extremely brief. Most of my comments have been made.

I would like to comment briefly on the differential in the increases between the University of Calgary and the University of Alberta — a 3.1 percent increase for the U of A and 2.9 percent for the U of C. In conjunction with this,