VOL. NO. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 14, 1982 NO. 5

M.1.y 1~, l'lfl2 The House met at 10:00 A. M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : 'l'i1pc No. 203 M,J - l Order, please! S'l'l\'rEMEN'l'S l.lY MINIS'rEHS MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. J. MORGAN: 'rhe hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I rise this morning on a Ministerial Statement on what we view,as a government here, a very, very serious matter. The provincial government is very concerned and will make immediate representations to register strong exception and objections to the federal government's policy of giving away our fishery resource. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: I was astounded to learn yesterday that the federal government had in 1981, for the past number of months of fishing, agreed to give Russian fisherrran (the USSR) a direct allocation of 103,00~ metric tons of !ish, that is 232 mjllion pounds of fish from within our 200 mile limit. I was fu rther shocked to Learn that of this total, 10,500 metric tons, 23.6 million pounds,was for the caplin species- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: - for the caplin >pecies to be taken in 2.1 .11\1. iln) <l, i11 oLiwr words off pw northeast coast of Newfounq­ land and Labrador.

Anct this is very, very serious and disturbing because the taking of the caplin stocks happened at a time when the inshore fishermen in this Province are being kept at a low quota comrercial caplin fishery by the same federal qovcrnlll<~nt <111d l:hi! ; Win; lx~inq dr>TH' bcCi'lllS'.) or Lhe c.:rmccrn expressed by thousands ot Newfoundland fishermen over the state of the caplin stocks. 45h

May 14, 1982 Tape No . 203 !>iJ - 2 MR . J. MORGAN: This past year,for example- not this past year ,the past few months , Mr . Speak er, fisherman expressed their concern in no uncertain terms, even to the point of forwarding a pet ition signed by thousands of fisherman from around our coast to Ottawa .

Now we learn that while concern \.,.as being expressed by thousands of Newfoundland fisherman and by the Newfoundland Government about the conditions and possible reduction of the caplin stocks off our waters, that at the same time 10,500 metric tons of caplin was being taken and given away at the time , taken by Russian fishermen , with in these waters. This wag being done despite statements by the federal minister that were made in the meetings with the provincial ministers,made in meetin~s with provincial officials and made publically that there wou ld be a total ban on the offshore caplin fishery . Mr .

Speaker, it was stated over and over that there would be a total ban in offshore fishing for caplin because of the reduction in the caplin stocks. 455

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 204 EL - 1 MR. MORGl\N: This was supposed to have been done, this complete bun,bocausc o1 concern over the state, as I say, of the caplin stocks. However, the federal gov- ernment made a deal with the Russians and qave them, as I say, 10,500 metric tons of caplin in these offshore waters as a part of the total allocation of 103,000 metric tons of fish. And one would ask why was all this fish given away.

This giveaway to the Russian fishermen,plus the recent deal of giving 5,000 metric tons, 11.2 million pounds,of squid to the Cuban fishermen,and the recent offering, now as of today is still being offered to Japan, of 14,750 metric tons, a total of 33 million pounds of squid to the Japanese fishermen. This was all being done, and is being done right now today in Ottawa at the same time as we are hearing statements regarding policies from Ottawa that there are too many inshore fishermen chasing too few fish. smm HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, despite these direct a1loc:.tl :ions,or what we' would term here a c,rivcawily of the fish stocks by the federal government to the Russian fish- ermen, the country of U.S.S.R, maybe there was a reason for giving away the fish. They were going to buy bulks of fish from Canada. Mr. Speaker, the total amount of fish, the total dollar value of fish purchased from all of Canada by Russia last year carne to only $4 million, only $4 million. $4 million worth of seafood was purchased from all of Canada by that same country. Mr. Speaker, we have registered with the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

LeBlanc), in fact on a number of occasions and just reccntly,our protests 45~

May 14, 198 2 Tape No. 204 EL - 2 MR .

MORGAN: and our opposition to the recent secret deal made by the federal fisheries department with the Cub an government giving Cuba n fi shermen the right to come and take from our waters thi s year 11 .2 mil lion pounds of squid stocks . 1-le have also put forward our objections and protests in telexes and in meetings at the official level and otherwise,to the deal presently being made by the fed­ er al government anc Japan giving Japanese fishermen the right this year to come and catch 33 million pound s of squid, 33 million pounds of squid this year from within ou r w aters, just o(f our coast or Newfoundland and Labr~dor . 1\nc'l today, Mr .

Spoalwr , we w i 11 as the government here again put forward our strong objections and protests not only to the Minister or Pisheries (Mr . I.e ­ Bl anc) but to the Prime Minister and strongly object to the Ru ssi an deal of the giving awa y of our caplin stoc ks because ~~e , as a qovernment here arc convinced that those ueals of qivinlJ ~way our fish r0sourccs 457

.>;· May 14, 1982 Tape No. 205 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: are having and will have a further very adverse affect on our fishing industry and our Nefoundland fishcnncn. So today, Mr. Speaker, the tc LL~xcs wi I J 11c sent not only from myself to my counterpart in Ottawa, the Minister of Fisheries,but by the Premier of our Province to the Prime Minister on this very serious matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for ~o~n. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, it is probably soin1 to l.;e a very rare occasioJ within the next three or four years that I am qoina to find myself in complete,total agreement with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. TULK: As I read the minister's statement, its particu]ar concern is with the caplin stocks off the shores of NcwfnundlanL~ and those stocks are very vital to the inshore fishery in this Province.

As a matter of fact, as the minister says, 'There have been serious discussions this year as to whether we should even be allowing our own fishermen to fish those stocks, perhaps they should be used more for bait for our inshore fishermen'. Now, Mr. Speaker, if we have doubts in this Province about whether we should fish those stocks,then certainly we should not allow Russian fishermen to catch those stocks offshore. And so I am going to ask the minister if he would make it known to the Minister of Fisheries and to the Prime Minister that our objection is the unanimous feeling of this House. SOME I-ION.

MEf'lBERS : Hear, hear I. -- ---- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 458

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 205 SD -2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to ask to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) . First I would like to say congratulations to the minister in his new portfolio.

Cmlld the minsiter advis<.l us when the Green !'aper that was nr.esented to his predecessor sometime in c~rly Dccembt"l"-.11 t:hat l:ltnl.! tlu• minl::.l·t·r promised that it NOUld be ·table.d in the llouse within five or six days and as of today we have not seen this Gree.n Paper on sports and recreation -could the minister advise when j t lvill be tabled in the House ancl i:lw :)ublic ,,., · J t kn": .'lil<lt is in that document? MR. SPEAKER: 'l'he hon. membc r for Cu 1 ture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member Eor his question.

Pirst of: all I am sun..', he bcl.ntj a reasonable person, 1"ould want to glve !Tle the opportunity to look at the report and study the recommendations myself. But I can tell him that the decision to table the document and to table the report will be made very,. very shortly. SOME HON. M.EMl3ERS: !lear, hea c! ~IR. NEARY: ~1r. Speaker. 459

May 14, 1982 MH. Sl'J5AKW< (Hu<>:;L!ll) Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 206 NM - l 'J'Iw hun. .Lea elL! I u l th1~ Mr. Speaker, I have a question [or the hon. the Premier. I wonder if he is coming back to his seat, the hon. the Premier? My question has to do, Mr. Speaker, with a vicious attack, a vicious assault made on Christine Fagan, the President of the Board of Trade - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ AN HON. MEMBER: A good Newfoundlander. MR. NEARY: - yes ,she is a good Newfoundlander- the President .)f the Board of Trade, Mr. Speaker, by the Minister of Mines and Energy.

I think it was uncalled for and it is unfortunate indeed. I wonder if the Premier condones this kind of activity, this kind of action on the part of his Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall)? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact I think I speak for all members on this side of the House when I say that we are very proud of the Minister of Energy and the President of the Executive Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: Lf there is one mnn in this hon.

House who demonstrates a conscientiousness, hard work, a mastery of the issues that he is now involved in in Energy, it is the hon. the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) And the member for St. John's East, as the minister responsible for Energy,called me when he received this letter from the Board of Trade expressing some of their concerns about our supposed intransigence as it relates to our dealings with the federal Minister of Energy on the question of the offshore. We were highly upset, the minister was and I was, that the Board of Trade, Ms. Faqan, would send a copy of a letter to 460

May 14, 1982 '!'ape No . 206 NH - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : the Minister of Energy (t-1r. !.,arshall) on Sunday night, and at the same time as appa rently she 1"as about to release it to the press. and I think the wishes expressed, or the ideas and vieo;.ts and opinions expressed in that letter from the Minister of Energy to Ms . Fagan and the Board of Trade accurately reflect the sentiments and feelings of ~~e Government of Newfoundland and Labrador . S0!1E HON . MEMBERS : MR . NE ARY: 11R. SPEAKER (Ru sse ll) : MR. NEARY : !lear, hear ~ A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. The hon . Leader of the Opposition .

A supplementary, Mr . Speaker , I have to say this that in responding to the Premier 's answer there that I think th~ whole thing was rather unfot ·tunatc . I think it could have been handled more quietly and,if the administration wants to continue to have our support on these matters, then they should not be going around picking fitJhts with people . Secause I think the Premier will agree, and this is my ques t.ion, does he not agree, l-1r .

Speake r, or docs he aq ree that this admini stration needs the co -operation of organizations like the Board of Trade? we need a united front in this Province if we are going to win the battle that 4 6 ·1

1> May 14,1982 Tape No. 1.07 ah-1 MR. NEARY: the l'remi f'r keeps rcmindincf us that we are involved in. Sodoes he not agree that we need the co-operation of not only the Board of Trade but the trade union movement and all other fraternal organizations in the Province and so on,so why pick a fight unnecessarily with the Board of Trade? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the Leader of the Opposition wants to have his cake and eat it to.

He wants to try to side with all those issues on which they just lost the election,and then he wants to yet try to make some difference between his party and ours through methodology. Well, I mean, the Leader of the Opposition will just not get away with that kind of technique or manoeuvre. The long and short of it is, Mr. Speaker, we not not intend to sit idly by when any organization or group or individual inside or outside of this Province criticizes unnecessarily and unfairly the position that this government is taking on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: !lear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. member A final supplementary, Mr.Speaker. Ts the hon. qcntlcman snyin<J then that no ind1vidual or no organization has the right to criticize this administrat1on? Is democracy now going out the window, Mr. Speaker? And would the hon. gentleman also tell us whether or not this means now that all­ out war is declared on the businessmen in this Province? It 6 2

May 14,1982 Tape No. 207 ah-2 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, you know, that does not deserve an answer. That is one of the other reasons when people contemplate in the last month why we won the election and why the Llberals lost the election there are a number of reasons given and one is our position on major issues, the other thing lS that we are better oryonized than the Liberal party.

And there is a third reason , which is very attractive to a lot of people who are in the un<lecideci <Jroup, and the other reason is this, that too often the Liberal party of Newfoundland and its leadership hit below the belt. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hoo.member for the Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan). Could the Minister of Fisheries advise the llouse how much money his department lost in the operation of the two fish plants in Northern Labrador in the fiscal year 1981-1982? MR.SPEl\KER: The han.

Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would not want to attempt to try to direct the accurate figure. What I would like to do lS take the question under advisement and provlde the information. I know there were some losses. There are losses every year in the government's operations in Labrador and , of course, that means the government is subsidizing the buying of salmon,nnJ the buying of char in particular, and processing these species in our own government fn~ilitics in Labrador, which we operate as government ownccl and 463

May 14,1982 Tape No. 207 ah-3 MR.MORGAN: government operated facilities including our floating service centre at Smokey. So there are always losses every year in the total operations by government with regard to the fishing industry in Labrador. 464

May 14, 1982 Tape 208 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: The exact amount I would not attempt to guess at so I prefer to take it under advise­ ment and get the information back to the hon. gentleman. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains . MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Would the minister also advise if the monies received from the federal/provincial native agreement was more money than he lost on the operation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I know there is a net loss to the Newfoundland Government every year. In other words, the taxpay~r~; oL our l'rov ince and the Newfoundland Government using the taxpayers' dollars are subsidizing the operations in Labrador. And, as I said in the House a couple of days ago, it is unfortunate that we cannot attract the private sector, the industry, to go in and establish with regards to fish plants and buying and processing in Labrador.

The plants we own now- we have given a committment to the Co-operative, Torngat Co-op, which is a co-op representing the people along the coast - we have given them the assurance that we will not sell the plants by public auction or tender without giving them the first right to be able to establish an operation of taking over the plants themselves. But we are still concerned, if we pass it over to someone like a co-op in Labrador, it would still take government dollars to keep it oper­ ating on a yearly basis.

But negotiations are ongoing and they will be ongoing this Summer, and we are looking at the possibility of the co-op taking over these plants, 46.5

1 May 14, 1982 Tape 208 EC - 2 MIL MOHG/\N: not this year, 1982, this inshore season, but the possibility for 19R3. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: l-ir. Speaker, my final supplementary • Could the minister also advise - probably it is impossible today, but could he get the information­ how much money is owed on arctic char and salmon that was bought by his department last year that has been sold, whether on tender or to privateindividuals? How much money is outstanding?

And also could he advise the House if his department has collected $35,000 that W<U> owed Lo It is ucpar tmcn t by a company l11 the United S ta tcs in 1980 that went bankrupt? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I answered that question during the estimates last year. Maybe I did not give the full details on it but I will get the full information. I am pretty sure we did get our money back from that company, a company, I think, called Frank Limited,or somcthing,in New York. That was back in 1978.

And with regard to the selling of the char and the salmon, any information of that nature, in fact, Mr. Speaker, as of our policy position, all information - I did the same last year - all information pertaining to the Department of Fisheries,and in fact my colleagues in their departments, all information the Opposition wants regardin~ the spending of government dollars will be available during the estimate time. L, 6 6

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 209 EL - 1 MR. HODDER : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER : Mr. Speaker, a question for th e Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. Windsor). I understand that the minister has been quoted as saying that the two bids for the Marystown Shipyard were not totally acceptable. These two bids, I understand, were from Petro·­ Canada and from Atlantis Corporation. I would like to ask the minister what was wrong with the two Canadian bids. Why were they not totally acceptable, particularly in the case of PetroC~nada? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Develop- ment. MR. WINDSOR: Hr. Speaker, we did, as the han. gentleman said, have two proposals for the purchase of the Marystown shipyard, The on by the Atlantis Corporation we did not deem as being acceptable in that the terms and the conditions of that agreement were not of such a nature that government would be interested in divesting of the shipyard under those terms and conditions. Ana we have advised the corporalion that in iLs present form thdl pro­ posal would not be acceptable. The proposal from Petro-Canada was not acceptable either, Mr.

Speaker, in that it depended to a great degree, in fact almost entirely on development of the Spanish Room Point which government has now designated as a preferred site for major oil developments, major con­ struction developments related to oil and gas. And therefore we said we could not dispose of the shipyard with the proviso that that particular piece of real estate would be available to that particular company. Although their proposal in itself as it related to the shipyard was much more acceptable than 467

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 209 EL - 2 MR. WINDSOR: the other, the bid was pre- dicatcd on having that particular piece of real estate available as well. ·-- -·-- We arc now going into the process, Mr. Speaker, as we have announced, of identifying proponents who may be interested in doing a major development at Spanish Room Point in Mortier Bay. We are putting together now a package,which will be available this week or very early next week, in fact, to be sent to all of the com­ panies that we have been able to identify that may have an interest in doinq a development in that area.

That information will go out and we will be allowing a two month period for companies to put in firm proposals for the development of that site. If, after that time 1 Petro-Canada, if they submit a proposal, if they are successful in that proposal then we will be only too happy to sit down and negotiate the sale of the Marystown Shipyard with them in the light of an overall development. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A supplemen .tary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, I understand that lhc minister has said that since those two proposals have been t11rncd down that he wi.lJ be qoi.nq international. Mr. Speaker, does the minister see any problem with the Foreign Investment Review agency? If we do not receive acceptable bids internationally, will the government be undertaking to make sure t!tut they continue to operate the shipyard and that the people of Marystown have security in the short term? 468

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 209 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Good question, good question. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Develop- ment. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I have not said that we would be going only internationally. We will be looking at any company, 469

Hay 14, 1982 Tape No. 210 SD - l MR. WINDSOR: whether: it is a Canadian company or otherwise that may have un int<'r<~st · in doinq a mLtjor development thGre. Our purpose in Lh<~ whole Ll1i11q i:; Lo ''m><tl"<', rirst of wll, that the development is a wise development, that it is in accordance with the social objectives of the Province and of the Burin Peninsula in particular, and that we have the best opportunity for the development of that area before us before we make any final decisions. So we will be looking both in Canada <J.nd l~l :>ewhc rr'.

Obviously our pre ferencc will be for a Canadian company,and in particular a Newfoundland company, to have' some~ involvemc,nt. in any development that takes place there and we will certainly be lookinq forward to it. ~s it relates to a short term future, Mr.

Speaker, of the Marys town Shipyard , this government has demonstrated quite clearly by providing funding for two supply vessels on speculation to the value of some $30 mi ll.ion in tot<Jl , that this Province, this provincial <JOVL'lllllll'nl .<lonl',wi1 ·11 loli\Lly prov:inclul Cund.i.nc1 hil!? pul forwurcJ. \~e ~1n• hui ld i.nq two vessels the first one has bc ·c·n sn1(1 1 .ls hnn. qcnl'.lcmen m<1y know,to l'o.tro-Cilnada tho.refore we went ahead with the second one and we are optimistic that indeed that one will be sold and that in fact the shipynrd is in a very qoou position for the t'<•::l <~1 .

Llli:; Y<'<lr. SOME liON. MI·~MIH.;RS: llc.l.r, heilr! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mention !"IRA . MR. WINDSOR: The Premier reminds me that I have not addressed the problem with FIRA. We have had some eli. [ f icuJ I i es with thi1 t, 'l'h~ Provinr.c is not entirely h;1ppy with ~ll<Jt. p.lrtir.ul.l.r !1i l:uiltion in that it docs, .i.n rnony cas<·:;, pre judice our opportunity to a development. bccilusc developments have taken place in other parts of CanaJa. And the federal government is trying to ensure 4/11

May 111, 1982 'rape No. 210 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: that only a certain percentage of any particular industry is controlled by foreign interests. That has no relationship whatsoever to any development that may be possible to take place here. And so we have objected to that But in the past we have been reasonably successful in assisting companies that arc cominq here and have given them a tremendous amount of assistance to qet through the FIRA process. MR. HODDER: MR. ~J:.AKER (Russel~l_: member £or Port au Port . MR. HODDEH: n final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon.

I \o/0 \1 J cl i 11 s t I i k ( ~ l () cl s k Ll1 I~ minister if the minister can ~uarantee the continued operation of the shipyard if those proposals and the divestiture committee, Cooper and Lybrand Limited, have faild to <1ttract someone to take over the Marystown Shipyard? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, first of all, as T have already indicated, by l:hc construction of thl'Sl~ two supply vessels we now have a significant amount of activity in that yard for the balance of this year.

Adding that to the normal ongoing repair work that we do for the fishing industry, which was fairly low last year by our normal standards, we are optimistic that indeed this y~ar will be a better year in the rcpilir business c1nd we sec no reason at all that there will be any malor disruption at the Marystown Shipyard for the coming year. In addition to that our ~arketing efforts, Mr. Speaker, in many areas, and particularly at the Houston show last week, indicated that there is indeed a tremendous amount uf interest. 4 7 .,

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 211 MJ - l HR. WINDSOR: We have indeed identified a good market for supply vessels and we are hopeful that we will be able to secure additional orders in the not too distant future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. HODDER : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary the hon. member for Port au Port . MR. l!ODDER: A final supplementary, Mr. SPeaker. . hear the minister and I listened very Cilrefully to what he said. The minister continued to say, 'for the coming year.' lle did not give any indication that the Marystown Shipyard had a future beyond this year.

Could the minister tell the House categorically that this government will stand behind the Marystown Shipyard until such time as the Marystown Shipyard is in private hands? MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! Good question. y(,s or no. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MIL WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman would recall the Royal Commission Study that was completed last year on Marystown Shipyard indicated that indeed there is no danger of a close down of the yard as it relates to the repair facility. That is not a question at all.

What we are looking at here is the new construction activity in the shipyard . Government has already shown quite clearly,by the construction of these two vessels and by other financial support that we have given Lhe shipyard, that we do stand behind Marystown Shipyard and that we are doing everything that is within this Province's financial capacity to assit that shipyard and to insure continued operation. SOME ffON. MEMBERS: llcar, hear! 41?

t1ay 14, 19 82 •rape No. 2U MJ -2 MR •. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the membet' for Pocro. ~1R. TULK: Mr.~peakcr, 1 have a question for the Minister or Fisheries (Mr. J. Morqnn) ann l think it arises somewhat out of his statement of this morning. I am wonderi.nq iust what is - and the minister invited me the other day to loan1 a.bout his department. MR. NEARY: You fOT.lJOt Joorc than he will ever know. MR. TULK: -----so T am \vOnderinq just whc•·e the minister stanus vthat his department's pol icy is on l'orciqn vcsscJs fishing within the 200 mile limit.

Should they b~ ,,lltl\~t;c.l to fish at all? If so, under what conc..liti.ons? Should we have those foreign vessels inside our 200 mil.e limit? MR. ST>F.I\KF.R: 'Ph<~ hc)n. Lh•· Mi11isl,:er of l~i::;h1•rit'S. ---·-------- MR. J. MORGAN: ~tr. SpNlker, our pos.it:ion was clearly enunicated and put fon.,ord to the Federal qovcrnment some ago. ,,ny species fish thnl: is fjshccl by Canndlan fisherman, and in particular ~CI·lfoundlond fisherman, tfwn~ shovlc.J t\(1, absolutely no foreign activity within our 200 mile limit in catching these species.

There are some species that the Canadian fishcrm<~n and Newfoundl.1nd fishcrm:.m <In not fish. N0\·1 i[ he \.,ants t;o t<.~lk tr:od0 de::~ ts ~d th tiWSI' spt•cics we..• ~>l i I J. have some reservations because we think it is wron9 to trade off a raw resource, trade orr ri.sh for fjsll n1.arket:s ,;md th,tt is what they h<lve been attemptin<J to do. tn try to put tO<J<"t.hcr deals for trade purposes and trarle off a raw resource that \vi 11 •JCJ tlV(•I ••nd l1t· 1'"11:••:-:!.;(•d I 111 o .t I i 11.11 Jll'<ttllwl I" o'OIIII"'I•· \vi lit 1)111.

I ilt.ll fii•Jthll'l:: wht•ll il i:: lll.lltlll.,.·lltlo•d "' l'""'"::•:••ri l11•1•· i11 Canada. !-;o we are opposed to Lh<Jl. lit• :Jn: tc>L<llly oppc•:-:l.'lf to 4 7 .i

-'-. May 14, 1982 Tape No. 211 MJ - 3 Ml{. J. MORGJ\N: any toreiqn activity on ground- fish species like th e Northern cod, we are totally opposed to any fishing by the foreigners in our squid species ,as r mentioned this mornin•i, and we are totally opposed to any fishing within our waters for the caplin species. Mr. Speaker. I~ 7 If That is our position,

May 14, 19 82 MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Tape No. 212 NM - 1 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. 'l'he minister's s·tatement this morning referred to 1981, and as I understand it the agreement with the Russians for 1982 is not yet signed. Ann I also undcrstuncl Can.J.tla j s ;Jsk i ng t"hl~ Hu~;~; i ans Lo buy $21.5 million worth of fish products from Canada before they will sign an agreement to give them any quotas inside the 200 mile limit. Now I would like to make one other point too, Mr.

Speaker, and that is that I understand last year that the Russians fishing inside our 200 mile limit was worth perhaps $2.25 million on repairs and maintenance to their vessels in St. John's~ I want to ask the question, Mr. Speaker, what is his reaction to that situation? Should we ullow quotas for use of St. John's? Should we suy, "All right, in the case of the caplin that you will not qet any quotas on caplin re<Jurdless of whether you use our ports or not," or should we say to them, "No, you are not getting the quotas on caplin or certain kinds of species anyway "? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon.

Minister of Fisheries. Well, Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier the policy of this administration is we are opposed to the trading off of fish stocks using a raw resource, using fish for the trading of fish. It should never be done in uny time with regards to trade. Now with regards to the Russians and their agreement that was put in place,or somewhat of an arrangement was put in place, if you recull the statement this morning I mentioned there was 103,000 metric tons qiven the Russians but our concern zeroed in on the caplin stor.ks. 1'hcru was 103,000 metric tons but only 10,000 metric tons of caplin. 475

May 14, 1982 Tape No . 212 NI-1 - 2 MR. MORGAN: And the c~plin was our main concern . Por example , uS I mentioned earlier , i! the species tl1.1t is beinq qiv0.n :~w:1y is of no usc and not heing cauqht or processed in Cun~di~n waters by Ne\o~foundland fishermen or others,well we still have our reservations.

But our main concern is with the qiving away- for example, I mean,I did not mention Lhis mornino in my Ministerial Statement but it still ~till uwai t further details of the next three or f:our days, but Poland last year was given 12,000 metric tons, we have not mentioned that yet because we felt that it was a use of a humane gesture . But this morning I found out that we thought it was going to be a trade deal, we gave Poland 12,000 metric tons of fis h but they o.nly purchased $12 ,000 worth of fish . MR. S'I'ACC: $12,000 \o~orth of f. ish , $1 a ton. MH.

MORGAN : 'T'hey were supposed to purchase ~round $20 million anrl they purchased $12,000 worth. And that is the in formatlnn l <JOt this morninq . That was brought to liqht yesterday by my qood friend, John Crosbie, member of Parliament up in the House of Commons yesterday, brought out by him . And again now Poland is demanding that the stocks of fish for their fishermen be doubled ~nd they would still not buy any fish from us.

So I mean these are the kind of deals that really worry us because the Department of Fisheries should never be involved in trade and commerce matters, in making trade deals with £oreign countries like Japan and 4i'6

May 14, 1982 Tape 213 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: elsewhere. Do not be trading away all our raw resource which is so important to provide jobs for Canadians and Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: I agree totally with the minister that we should not be tradin9 fish for fish. Now would he take one step further and in his teh'x Lo the Mini ~;l<!r o[ Fisheries (Mr.

LeBlanc) today would he tell him for us that not only are we concerned about the caplin stocks but we are concerned about stocks that could be used ln this Province regardless of whether the Russians use St. John's and spend $2.25 million a year or not? Would he do that? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Obviously the minister is not going to answer, So just to reinforce the question asked by my colleague rrom Pogo, Mr. Speaker, wou]d the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) also inform Mr.

Crosbie, the Tory M.P. for St. ;John's West, whose district the shipyard comes in, would the hon. gentleman inform Mr. Crosbie of the policy of this administration? Because he seems to be very weak-kneed on whether or not the Russians should get their quota; because he is thinking about the CN dockyard for repairs and creating jobs in St. John's. Now what does the minister have to say about that? Is there any liaison between the minister and the Tory M.P.s in the Parliament in Ottawa to let them know what the policy is here so they will not qo riqht off in a different d~rection and weaken our case? It/ 7

.... May 14 , 1982 Tape 213 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The bon . the Minister of Fisheries . MR . MORGJ\N : !4r . Speaker 1 I have always had good liaison 1 a good relationshi p \'lith my good friend, my former colleague in Cabinet , Mr . Crosbie,and my good friend , Mr. McGrath . In fact, I have a pretty good relationship with two or three of the Liberal members in the Parliament of Newfoundland as well, two or three \vho are decent chaps to deal wi th . Two or three others I \o/OUld never deal wit h, but that is besid e the point . SOME liON . MEMDERS : !lear , hear ! MR . MO RGAN : Mr .

Spe ake r, the agreement that \~ S made and arrangements put in place , I am not 90ing to get involved in the arrangements and trade deal made with req;;1rd to the Russia n ships , but I am sure , T am of the firm opinion, the time it was pu t in pl ac e it wa s for the servicing of ships . We have many foreign vessels that fish on the very edge of the 200 mile limit, on 'the very edge outsi de th e 200 mile limit . Now the fishing activity out there - if they are going to come into our ports and get servicing it is one thing, but we are talking about here fish in g wi thin the 200 mile limit .

And I would look forward to seeing the day , Mr . Speaker , when we are going to be able to be servicing our own Ca nadia n fi shin g vesse ls taking ou r own fish onboard . SOME liON . MEMBERS : MR . 1'/AR REN : ·--- MR . SPEAKER: llear , hear ! Mr . Spc ak er c the member for Torngat Nountains. The hon . t~ R . WJ\R TillN : Mr . Speaker , I have a question for thr ~ hon . the Premier . l'lould the Premier advi se when and if tenders will be called for the construction of an airstrip in Pos tvi lle , La brador? MR . Nf:ARY : !lear , hear! l\ go od question . 1, I tl

May 14 ,1':!82 'l'ape No. 214 u.h-1 MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : I lou. the 1' rcmicr. P~EMIER PECKFORD: I have not qot that at my fingertips, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice and get the information for the hon. member. MR.SP~AK~R (Russell): The non. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.Wl\RREN: ------ Mr.

Spew.ker, I o.m just wonder i_nq what would be the~ r·d L i C!Tiil l c~. r tid nk scveru l weeks ago the Premier announced th<"lt tenders hu.ve been called for the upgrading of the Tran&-Canada Highway, lmprovements and upgrading of the 1'rans-Canada Highway, but still and all why we clo not hu.ve u.n airstrip that is so vitally important for Postville residents. This, I understand,was tied into the same u.grcemcnt that was Slgned at the Newfoundland Hotel u.nd in the Confederatlon Building.

I am just wondering what was the purpose of calll.ng tenders for the upgrading of the TCI1 and not on the airstripsat Postville, Rigolet and Port Hope Simpson? MR.SPt:l\Kt:R: The hon. the Prcmler. P~EMIER PECKFORD: 'rhc hon. member, if he had glven me notlce or let me know he was qolng to ask the question I would have had the detu.ils for him ln the same way as the members of the Oppositlon would like to have an advance oopy, two or three minutes or five mlnutes before the House opens on Minlsterial Statements, or they complain.

Well, if the hon. member wishes to nave an answer on a dctuiled question from me as Prcmicr,whcn 1 am clcalinr; wit:h li 1-u~cn or sixtc•c•n departments,on a detu.il llkc the Posl~vi L I c, l.ubt:udor landinq strip,well then T would say to the hon. member: :it 1s going to be difficult for me to havQ that kind of lnformation at my fingertips to answer in a tnirty minute Question Period. It lS qoinq to be extremely dLfficult. I think I knuw 111ust 479

~ May 14,1982 Tap<~ No . 214 ab-2 l'l<J·;MIER PECJ<f;'Ol<D : oC t.he things that are going on in the Province and through the departments or~ major poljcy nature - !;OMI·: liON . MI':MIII-:H~i : llcar , hear !

I'RJ·:!'IIER PECK fORD : - and. unfortunately Cor me , perhaps to much of the detail of the things , But the Cact of the matter is I cannot be expected in an Oral Qucst~on Pcr~od like this to have that kind of detnil . 1 just say to the hon . member Cor Tor ngat Mountains (Mr .Warren) that the kind of compar1son he m,1kes that we .Jr<' not suppos~:d l:o call tenders on a fc< l<'rnJ -prOVl.llClal 'I'CI I :lq reemC'nt unt1l tc nder.s are o.~lra.,rly c.1ll~d on on a1rpot t :ll l'ostv.ilJc ,J • .JiJraclor , <locs not seem to me to oc a Joq1cal way to do business .

Iva did not wait till all the roads on the Island were ready to be called before we called theCoastal Labrador road there a couple of weeks ago . So I do not understa nd \llhat the hon . member is trying to say . There is a f~ncral-provincial agreement in pla ce for the TCII , which runs across the Csland . That is signed <~nrl the money J.S there . 'l'hc dcsif;n is done on the piece or o·oo..~d anct then tcnrlcrs will be called . That is one thing . MR . 1-Jl\RREN : Give me the an swer .

I'Rir.MIBR Pc;CKFORD : '.J:he landing strip in Labrador is another thing and has its own particular problems or ll:s own particular time

schedule for the calling o( tenders . So we will try to call all the tenders as Last as we can for all the projects that <~rc ready to go but 'VIC are not qoinq to ho ld one ba ck because an vthcr is not ready . \'le w1.ll cal 1 them as they come o.~nd they are ready to go . And so if the hon. member wants to qct the detail on thi ngs like this , 48n

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 215 Nt-1 -1 PREMIER PECI<FORD: well then he will either have to give me notice or direct a ques·tion to the appropriate ministry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Tornga·t Mountains. Z.1R. WARREN : I lear, hear~ n supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 71 supplementary, the hon. member Yes, Mr.

Sneaker, J\pparently the Premier does not understilnci that the some thinq that \-las f'iqncd at the Newfoundl<~nd Hotel and here at the ConfcdcraLion Buil<.lin~ \vas a transportation agreement_ which in~lude<.l Lhc airstrips, the 'XCH all together. .I am just wonder lnq why he would look at calling tenders for the TCH when he should knot•/ as Premier of the Province that there i.s a very short construction season along coastal Labrador, and at lcasl the least thing he should learn from his Department of Rural, Aqricultu=al and Northern Dcve~opment is that tenders have to go out months and months earlier in order to qet the materials and equipment along Coastal Labrador.

So I am just wondering why the Premier has dolilyod the construction of the airstrip in Postville thi~ ycur? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORO: rt is extr~mcly unfortunate t.hat the member for Tornga t Mountains t.rlcs to make .:t moun Lain out of-a big mc;>untain in the sense that ,number one, does not the hon. member for Torngat t-lountains kno\., that all was siqned on the ~anding strips was a letter of i11tcnt~ That is number one. It \·laS not an agreement, it 1-1as a letter of intent. 461

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 215 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Number two, that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) for the Province sent the agreement to Ottawa on April 13th., and we are still waiting for them to sign the agreement. MR. WI\RREN: April the 16th., it was signed on the 26th. of April. PREMIER PECKFORD: You cannot call tenders on a landing strip in Postville, Labrador if the agreement for the funding of that - MR. WARREN: It was already agreed with. PREMIER PECKFORD: - landing strip is not signed.

All was signed down at the Hotel Newfoundland and here in the Confederation Building at the time of that whole thing, as it related to the landing strips, was a letter of intent, not an aqreeement, And the Minister of Transportation, doinq his job for the Province, sent the agreement - MR. WARREN: The 30th. of January. The 30th. of January. PREMIER PECKFORD: - after the letter of intent was signed to the federal authorities - MR. WARREN: The 30th. of January. The 30th. of January. PREMIER PECKFORD: - in April and it has not been sent back signed by the federal people.

So until the agreement is signed, tenders cannot be called. And after the agreement is signed - MR. WARREN: Two months to write a letter~ Two months to write a letter! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, can I be allowed to be heard in sile nce if the hon. member would like to hear an answe:r: to my question? MR. WARREN: Two months answering a letter. 482

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 215 NM -3 PREMIER PECKFORD: So the agreement \>/Cnt back to Ottawa, they have not signed yet the ~greement. After the agreement is siyned then the tenders can be called if the interim supply is through and all the rest of the monies available. as t-Ie can - MR. ~>JJ\RREN : Do not blame it on Ottawa. PREMIER PECKFORD: So we will move as quickly uo not blame it on Ottawa. -on callinq the tenders, on Lh.e landing strip in Postville, as soon as the federal authorities return the agreement, signed by them, so we can qo ahead and build a landing strip because of the short - NR.

WARREN: Do not blum~ it: on OL ta•l'l;.I. Do not blame it on Otta1-1a. PREMIBR PECKFORD: construe Lion season in r . .:tbr,tdor. I know just as much about the climate of Labrador as the hon. gentleman. MR. WARREN: I am afraid you de not. PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh yes, I do. MR. {•1ARREN: PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~1R. S1>EAKER (Russell) : PREMIER PECKFORD: I am afraid you do not. Oh I have cuught just as much - Oh, oh! Order, please! I have caugh·t just as many salmon - I have caught just as many salmon in Square Islands and 483

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 216 EL - l PREMIER PECKFORD: Tub Harbour and Snug Harbour, St. Lewis and Fox Harbour and Lodge Bay - MH. WARREN: Fourteen years. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not care if the hon. member spent forty years down there instead of fourteen. MR. WARREN: There is a lot you do not know, boy, about Labrador. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am telling the hon. me~ber that I am aware of the problems of Labrador just as much as he is. MR. NEARY: You do not know anything about Labrador. PREMIER PECKFORD: I can pack just as much in two years, Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman can in fourteen. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Before we proceed with other bus iness 1 it is a pleasure for me to welcome to the Galleries today fifty-two grade V students and their teachers from Mary Queen of Peace School on Torbay Road, St. John's, from the area represented by the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn). I welcome them very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Public Accounts for the Province of Newfound­ land for the year ending 31st of March, 198l,and also the Report of the Auditor General to the House of Assembly for the financial year enninq 31st of March 1981. And at the same time with the latterreport, Mr. Speaker, the depart­ mental observations on the Report of the Auditor General for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1981. SOME HON. MEr-liJERS : Hear, hear! 484

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 216 EL - 2 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Let me find it now, Mr. Speaker. Oh, yes.. Here we go. Mr. Speaker, I have a petition. It is signed by 185 people from the town of Nain and it says, / "Whereas it is in the interest o£ fisheries resource ' management to develop the Arctic char and salmon fisheries of Nain;and

whereas the Torngat Fish Producers Co-operative has incurred significant losses in its 1981 venture in Hebron and Saglek Bays; and

whereas the losses may impair the future development of the organization" _I wonder is the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) around because it does pertain to his department~- nand

whereas access to the char and salmon stocks North of Nain is an essential corn- ponent of fisheries development and the continued economic well-being of the area residents: Be it therefore resolved that the federal and provincial governments work out a formula to guarantee losses which will assist the co-op in its efforts to continue the operation of this fishery in Northern Labrador until a more economically viable means 485

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 217 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: of operating can be put in place. And therefore we the undersigned ask our elected representatives in the House of Assembly" - and that means tlw fifty-two of us, Mr. Speaker -"to support the area fishermen and the Torngat Fish Producers Co-op to find assistance for the Co-op to maintain their collector boat service to the North of Nain." I wish to go on, Mr. Speaker, by saying that last year there was quite a loss taken in by the Co-op and by the Department of Fisheries to prosecute the fishery North of Nain. However, the fishermen in Nain, and each year, Mr.

Speaker, roughly eighty or ninety fishermen from Nain take their families and move North t-o Sa<]lck, Hebron, Okak and the various bays up North of Nain. However, it has been very costly and there we find it is the best fishing for salmon and char, in fact, it is the best char that is found anywhere along the Labrador Coast because the further you go North 1 according to the hioloqists with the Department of Fisheries 1 the better the char is. So I think we have to have the encourage- ment and the financial help from the Department of Fisheries and also from the federal government.

I understand last year there was quite a bit of help went to the Torngat Co-op from the federal government and from the provincial Department of Fisheries, but we need to maintain a collector system North of Nain.Or if that is not done, Mr. Speaker, I think that the Minister of Fisheries U1r. -"1organ) should seriously consider taking the Labrador barge that is in place out around Smokey and placing her up North of Nain just for the months of July and August 1 and then move her back to Smokey for the main catch of cod in the later

part cf the fishing season. And I think if the minister would work this out with the Torngat FishCo-op, probably these could be also a help. And at the same time, 486

May 14, 1982 Tape No . 217 SD - 2 MR . WARREN : Mr . Speaker, I would ask the minister to give his full support in making some kind of arrangements with the Co -op and those families that his department is encouraging to move North to prosecute the fishery. It is pointless, Mr . Speaker, to encourage those fishermen and families to go North unless we can put some finances their way to offset the extraordinary costs that they hilve to bear in <JOinv North t<' fish . Mr . Speaker, I wish to lay this petition on the Table and refer it to the department to \.;hich it relates . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR .

MORGAN : The hon . Minister of Fisheries . Mr . Speaker, I apologize to the hon . gentleman , I was out of the Assembly when he brought forward the petition . I understand it is from the people in 487

May 14, 1982 Tape 218 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: the Nain area, the fishermen in particular. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in saying that we will support that petition and do whatever we can to help the fishermen up in the Northern part of the Labrador Coast. I say that sincerely because we understand there is a pretty good Arctic char fish stock North of Nain in the Hebron area and that stock is not being fished by Labrador fishermen primarily because it is too far away to move from Nain.

I was down in that area the year before last and saw it myself and, of course, last year we agreed with the application put forward for a freezer trawler to go in there - or freezer vessel, I should say - to go in and arrange to buy the fish up in an area where nobody is living and away from the fish plant at Nain. And they did arrange to qo in there with a foreign vessel, a Faroese vessel if I recall, and they purchased the fish from the Labrador fishermen, residents of Nain mostly, and had that fish frozen onboard the vessel.

But we are concerned - and the hon. gentleman, I am sure, realizes this - we are concerned about the possibility of that kind of activity having an adverse effect on the fish plant. We would not want to take away any fish stocks that could be processed in the plant at Nain. I am sure the hon. gentleman would agree with that. So we have to watch it very carefully, Rut I will say without hesitation, Mr.

Speaker, that this minister and his department will be working in close co-operation with the Labrador Co-op that is now formed there and the people of Nain to do what we can to assist them with regar~ to the Arctic char and salmon fishery. MR. NEJI .RY: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 488

May 14, 1982 Tape 218 EC - 2 MR, NEl\RY; Mr. Speaker, I just want to take a moment to reinforce the arguments made by my colleague in connection with the petition he presented today in the House to try to maintain collector boats, I think, is the prayer of the petition, in the Nain area. I am fairly familiar with that part of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, because when I was Minister of Social Services, Northern Labrador Services came under the care of my department. And, as a matter of fact, the first time I ever met my colleague, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren), I met him during an official visit - MR. WARREN: Long before the Premier was up there. MR. NEARY: -to Northern Labrador where he was in charge of one of the department stores -nhP.:t:8 was it? MR. WARREN: Davis Inlet. MR. NEARY: In Davis Inlet -when I first met my colleague. He spent fourteen years in Northern Labrador and provided yeoman service to the people in that area, Mr. Speaker. I could not find words to speak more highly of the work that the hon. gentleman did in Northern Labrador, outstanding work under 489

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 219 MJ - 1 Ill' . : : _ Ill':/\ I~ , : ,,,.,,:] ·lliii.·IIIJ tll ·lll,lfl·l circumstances. Mr. Speaker, _yon would have to be awfully, awfully dedicated to devote,, to dedicate fourteen years of your life to looking after the affairs and the needs of the native populatio~ the Inuit population in Northern Labrador.So,Mr.Speaker,it is only fitting that my hon. colleague should be able to make such strong representations for his constituentR, whom he worked for for fourteen years.

And I think that it is very unkind and unfair for the Premier to poke tun at my hon. colleague and say that my Premier caught more salmon in Labrador than my colleaque. MR. WARREN: So he did. So he did. MR. NEARY: Maybe he did, Mr. Speaker, but he was down there as a sports fisherman, but my colleague was down there working very hard for the department and for the people of Northern Labrador. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as far as the collector is concerned 1I think the Department of Fisheries should develop a collector policy.

We have a similar problem·in my own district down in LaPoile. Grand Bruit, Petites and La Poile in the wintertime, the fisherman can noi fish, the collector is on in the summertime. 7\bout seven or eight months out a year they cannot fish,as my han. friend knows because he has relatives in Grand Bruit, they cannot fish because the processor, the private company,will not put on a collector. And these fisherman should be fishing pretty well year round, certainly ten manths out of a year. I believe the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) would be well advised to develop a collector policy.

We are talking an awful lot about quality control, the fishery is changing, fish now is going to have to 490

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 219 MJ -2 MR. S. NEARY: be trucked and carried long distances to the fish plants. There seems to be a surplus of processing plants and so forth. So the whole tenor of the fishery is going to change in the next fe\ol years and I think that one of the things that the minister should look at immediately is developing a collector poHcy for the various communities that are not linked by road to the fish plants. I support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I do hope that the minister. will give it early consideration. MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 2, Mr.

Speaker. Order 2. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 4 9 .,

May 14,1982 Tape No. 220 ah-1 MR. CHAIRMAN !Aylward): Order, please! COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: 'l'he non. the Minister of Finance. 1•1· ''ill Ill'' llr ~ II I I I II' Ill II I• Il l •;<~ rrnrri.LLP.e sal last day L11e ltu11. lllellru~~~ Cu.r 'l'urnyat Mountains (Mr.Warren) asked me if I could let him have details of certain departments. If my memory serves me ~t was Rural, Argicultural and Northern Developments an c; Culture, Recreation and Youth. Wnat was the other one? MR. NEARY : Social Servl.ces. DR. COLLINS: Social Services. No, I am sorry. Oh yes, Social Services. R~ght. So I wish , Mr.

Chairman , for the benefit of the hon. member to table the estimates for those three departments and posslbly the taole would make them available to the hon. memoer. Thank you. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: First of all, Mr.Chairman, I want to say that we finally dragged the Auditor General's Report and the Public Accounts-and l.n addition to that this government nas developed a new strategy in the last couple of years whereby they also providetheir departmentalobser vations on the Auditor General's Report.

In other words 1 they try to neutralize and silence the press from elaborating and commenting on the goodies in the Au d ~tor General's Report. Now , I have only had the r~port in my hands for a few minutes. I have managed to browse through it ana it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that this year's report ~s chock-full of 482

May 14 ,19!12 Tape No . l20 ah-L MR . NEARY : DR . COLLINS : ~ffi.CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon . ~lini s ter of Finance . DR .COLLINS : all kinds of goodies . A point of order . A point of order . Mr .

Chairman , the Committee is sitting on the Interim Supp~y Hill, is actually sitting on the resolut~on really 4 But it 1s the trad~tion of the House that when we sit on the resolutio n, in regard to Interim Supply , we also consider the Tntcrjm SuppJy nil I. 1\nd in Cornrnitten as opposea,~hall we say,to the House ~tself on second read~ng or whatever where a fa~r amount of latitude ~s g1ven,in Committee we deal precisely with the issue before the Committee. Now, Mr. Chairm an, the Auditor General's Report 1s not the subject for discussion before the Committee .

There arc times when the Auditor General's Report may be discussed and I am sure w1ll be discussed, but this is not the time . The hon . member is quite out of order if he is going to comment on the Auditor General's Report except,possibJ.y,quite specifica lly on a matter that is conta1ned 493

May 14, 1982 Tape 221 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: either in the Resnlution before the Committee or in the bill that is the Interim Supply Bill that will be considered subsequent to that Resolution. If his remarks with regard to the Auditor General's report deal specifically with matters within that purview, well, that would not be out of order, but from what I heard from the hon. member, he was dealing with the Auditor General's report in total and I submit that that is totally out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I understand Your Honour is new in the Chair and I am sure that even Your Honour being new, you know the difference of the remarks just made by the Minister of Finance, who either made them out of complete ignorance of the rules of debate in Committee,when we are discussing a matter as serious as a money bill - he either made them out of ignorance or he does not care about the procedure of this House, as he does not care about spending money without the authority of this House. Mr.

Chairman, in the discussion we are having at the moment, we are allowed ten minutes under the Standing Rules, each side of the House back and forth, and if they do not want to speak for ten minutes we can speak. Everything goes, Mr. Chairman. Everything goes when you are talking about the budget, the Budget Speech, the Throne Speech, Interim Supply, Supplementary Supply. And I think Your Honour knows that and I think all I did in my opening remarks was embarra~s the minister slightly. He obviously does not want to talk about the Auditor General's report today 4 811

May 14, 1982 Tape 221 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: but it is not against the rules and I am perfectly in order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): On this point of order, I do not want to try to get out of making a ruling, and I am not, but I was just on my way in to take the Chair. I would like to point out to hon. members that we are discussing Interim Supply at the moment. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is probably the easiest way for Your Honour to get out of it, to remind the House what we are discussing.

And I can look at my hon. friend, the retired Speaker, who is smiling over there and I am sure - i>iR. SIMMS: J am not yet hung. MR. NEARY: Not yet hung. Is it 'hung' MR. TULK: You will be. MR. SIMMS: 'Hanged' that is right. MR. NEARY; 'Hanged', that is right. I think the proper grammar is that the hen. gentleman will be hanged in due course next to former Speaker Ottenheimer, who is now the Minister of Justice. or 'hanged'? MR. SIMMS: You will get to do your term yet. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And, Mr.

Chairman, I would submit to the House that before this session is over, many of the ,hon. gentleman's colleagues will be hanged. But they will not be hanging on the hallowed walls of this Chamber, they will be hanging out in front of Confederation Building. Mr. Chairman, let me say this, that the Auditor General's report has just been tabled in the House, and 1as I indicated, we have only had an opportunity merely to browse throuqh it. l\n<1 in browsing through it, Mr. Chairman, 495

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 222 NM - 1 MR. NBARY: I notice that there are all kinds of goodies in there that need to be questioned and commented on,and we will be doing that in due course. But I want to lift out one item now for the hon. gentleman, which has to do with a matter that has been mentioned in the Auditor General's Report before, and that has to do with teachers' payroll. Mr. Chairman, the Auditor General,pages 36 and 37 of his report, goes into qreat detail about his audit of teachers' payroll .

He noted last year in his report, and I believe the year before and again this year, that are serious deficiencies in the internal control over the payment of salaries of teachers. And he goes on to say that there was a lack of documentation in the files of the Teachers' Payroll Division to support payments made to teachers. There was an inadequate accounting for salary payments. Now these are pretty serious matters, Mr.

Chairman, and I wonder if the minister now could tell us what action the government hav0 taken to remedy these deficiencies, and if the hon. gentleman can also tell us as a result of the internal audit that was done, either by the Department of Education or by the Auditor General's Department, or the Department of Finance, as a result will any charges be laid, or will a police investigation be carried out resulting from any of the audits or any of the internal investigations that have been made by either the Minister of Education's (Ms. Verge) own staff or by the Auditor General's staff? Mr.

Chairman, I would like to hear the Minister of rinance (Dr. Collins) comment on this matter. And we will i:ave a number of other questions probably later on the Audi~or General's Report, but for now, because we managed to drag the report out of the minister this morning, 496

May 14, 1982 Tape No . 222 NM - 2 MR. NEARY : perhaps, Mr . Speaker, we might just, if my colleagues have some specific questions to put to the minister - but perhaps the Interim Supply Bill may just slide through to give us a chance to study the report and next week we will be asking some very penetrating questions about the Auditor ~neral's Report . Then the budget Hill be down on the 27th . and we can get back at it again .

But the government now ,I believe,is gone past its deadline for paying its bills and unless we approve interim supply in this Bouse today or Monday or Tuesday, the payroll will not be met next week, which means that public servants, nurses, teachers, and so forth could not be paid. I do not know if the newer members are aware of that or not, that interim supply- if we do not pass inte:d.!n supply before next Wednesday the~e will be no payday for the nurses and the teachers and the public servants in this Province. And we are not, the Opposition is 497

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 223 so - 1 MR. NEJ\RY: not going to cause any unnecessary inconvGnience or hardship, Mr. Chairman, to people on welfare or people who are waiting for their salaries or companies that are on the brink of bankruptcy who are waiting to be paid their bills. I do hope, Mr.

Chairman, that if we pass the Interim Supply Bill in the next hour or so 1 these companies that have been waiting to be paid their bills that they have sent to the Department of Finance three and four and five months ago, I hope these bills will be paid promptly to save these companies from going into bankruptcy.Because I have had a number of calls, Mr. Chairman, since the election,from businesses, genuine businesses in this Province who have no political axe to grind, who tell me that they cannot qGt any money out of the government. I have had the same complaint - MR. TULK: (Inaudible) about two years. MR.

NEARY: - from a lot of municipalities. And town councils are being driven into bankruptcy. And the other day the Leader of the NDP predicted that there will be a lot of resignations from town councils because the administration is putting the squeeze on the town councils.And themayorsand the councillors will not be able to withstand the pressure and the abuse that they will gct 1 because it is going to be blamed on them, they are in the front line of fire, they are out in the line of fire. And so what I am saying, Mr.

Chairman, is that we are not going to give the government the opportunity to point the finger at us and say, 'Well we could not pre-tender or we could not pay our bills or we could not meet the payrolls. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: Pretending. They have been pretending for a long time. The great pretender is over there. 498

May 14, 1982 Tape No . 223 so - 2 MR . NEARY : Yes , that is right , the Premier is the great pretender . Or ~.o1e could not pay welfare recipients, give them their allowances a.nd so forth . We are going to pass this Interim Supply Bill, I would say, probably in the next hour or so,when my colleagues ask a fe w specific questions . I do want to thank the Premier, by the way, who is the man responsible ror <Jetti ng the Auditor ­ General's Report on the table of the House . I made a statement a few days ago that the Auditor-General's Report had been in the hanis of the Minister of Finance (Dr .

Collins) for at least six or seven weeks if not longer . And the hon . gentleman , tve finally dragged it out of him today, and we would not have gotten it today only the Premier and I had a chat here before the llous e met ycstercluy nn the Interim Supply Bill and I said, 'Well , how do you expect us to do our job and to ask questions, the right questions, if we do not have the information in front of us?' . And the Premier said, ' I agree' • He said, • I will go see the t-1inis ter of Finance '. And that is how we got the Auditor-General 's Report on the Table today . So, I-tt .

Cha lrm an, we want to study it ,. We will be back at it again next '"'eek,and we will be having another go at it when the Budget is brought down . And perhaps if my colleagues have some 499

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 224 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: specific questions they want to ask, weJ 1, ''"' hope we qet the co-operation of the minister. hnd after that I think we will just let the Interim Supply Bill go through, although we are not happy about it.A record amount, and in Interim Supply new capital works projects that has never happened before, unlawful spending and so on. I do not want to repeat that all over again, Mr. Chairman, I think that message has come through loud and clear. MR. F. STAGG: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Before recogni~ing the hon. the member for Stephenville I would just like to say a word for the benefit of the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Neary). as far as I know, criminals are hanged but speakers are hung. The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I would like to compliment you on your appointment to your position and obviously the sense of humour that you have already displayed will be quite an assistin getting th~ nror.0.nures of the House carried on in proper style.

Now I hear a little bit of caterwaulling over on the other side but I will not let that detract me. Mr. Chairman, obviously we are asking for an awful lot of money here, $674 million. I would just like to zero in on one ot the departments and that would be the Department of Fisheries.

I would like to see in the future when the government is coming back to the House, probably in the year 1985 after the Liberals in Ottawa are defeated as is inevitable iust as the Liberals in Newfoundland were defeated recently the Liberals in Ottawa will be defeated, that the vote for the Department of Fisheries in this House will be very, very large.Because we are looking for concurrent jurisdiction in the fisheries so that the kind of travesty- can I say criminal? I suppose it is"criminal",in quotes at least,activity that the federal government has perpetrated upon 500

May 14 , 1982 Tape No . 224 MJ - 2 MR . F. STAGG : this Province in the allocation of the fisheries resource within the 200 mile limit to other countries , particularly Russia ,the 103 ,360 metric tons . ';his is not an acedemic question , Mr . Chairman , this is not something that just appears in books, this is somethinq thilt gets us right in the pocketbook . We have small fish plants throughtout this Province that are bankrupt . We have banks tha t arc foreclosing on businessmen . These bank~ ~rc not run by the local managers . these banks are run by -the corporate authorities are in Montreal and Toronto and they say , 'You have out standing loan s in Newfound land , get the 50 'j

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 225 EL - 1 MR. STAGG: money in, realize on your scC11rity an<l so on. Well how c.:m thilt. be chml•Jctl? /\nd l :;;,y it can be changed, Mr. Chairman, by turning around our economy, turninq around our economy so that we export the 103,000 metric tons of fish, either in fresh or processed form. And that changes your balance of payments. You are sending products out and the money is coming back into the country and it fights inflation and it lowers your unemployment rate. And that is what countries are all about. I do not know what kind of a country Canada is.

Canada is the international benefactor of the Eastern block countries. It is almost an economic unit, an economic part of the Warsaw block. But if you see who is catching the fish off the coast of Newfoundland, who is catching the most fish, you find the Russians and the Poles and the Bulgarians, all of these regimes, all of these regimes that stand for everything that we do not stand for, all these so-called left wing which are really right wing, far right wing regimes, and there is our Minister od Fisheries (Mr.

LeBlanc) and our Prime Minister cozying up to these people and, in effect, giving away our resource, I do not know what the reason is. But is the fact that the Japanese voluntarily, and I put that in quotes, 'voluntarily' agreed to restrict their export. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. .MR. CUAIRMAN (McNicholas): member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A point of order, the hon . The hon. member on the other side is spr·2king but his own members are not here. There is no quorum in the House, Mr. Chairman, even with the two of us. MR. STAGG: Mr.

Chairman,that is not a quorum call, that is an observation that there may not be a quorum in the House. 5G2

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 225 EL - 2 MR. HODDER: There is no quorum in the House, Mr. Chairman. Quor~m call. m:.. clE i\RY: Shameful! Forty-four members and they cannot keep a quorum in the House. That is shameful. MR. STAGG: Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Sit down, now. You have to wait for five minutes . How long do we have to wait, Mr. Chairman? MR. STAGG: Chairman. MR. HODDER: or three minutes. I will wait un~il the quorum is - I think we have a quorum now, Mr. No, you have to wait two minutes, MR. STAGG: I have to wait until the Chair- man gives me the floor.

And I would like to have the floor rather than being interrupted by spurious and foolish points of order by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) who lives in a fishing district - MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. STAGG: - who docs not want to hear about the fishery. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: From my understanding -Mr. Chair­ man, the hon. gentleman was Deputy Speaker of this House at one time, so he should know the rules.

But obviously he does not ,and that is frightening when you think there was a gentleman sitting in the Chair who does not know the rules of the House. When the Clerk counts the House, Mr. Chairman, if there is no quorum, if fourteen members are not in'attendance 1then you have to ring the bells for three - 5 L :i

May 14, 1982 MR. fll\IRD: MR. NEARY: MR. Rl\IRD: ·- -- -- MR. NEARY: three minutes and •rape No. 225 You are out of order. I am not out of order. Yes you are. EL - 3 You have to ring the bells for 504

May 14, 1982 Tape 226 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: I believe that is th e proper procedure . Perhaps the former Speaker could supply us with a little bit of information on that. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): To that point of order, we will wait three minutes unless there is an agreement to commence right avJilV. MR. WARREN: Is that not sham eful? SOME HON. MEHBERS: Learn the rules. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we have an agreement? Is it agreed? MR. STAGG : 1\t lc~st fi.vc minutes have 1msscd, "lr. Chu.irman . MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed that we commence? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The three minutes are now up.

Before recognizing the han. the member for Stephenville, -r: ··nuld like to welcome to the gallerie!:' from New 1.1'/orld Island East Elementary School, Newville, Twillingate district, sixty-three students accompanied by te11chers, Mr.Hamlyn, Mr. Woolridge, Mrs. Mehaney, Mr. Greene, Mrs. Co ish and Mr. Sansome. SOME HON. ME~BERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Stephenville. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if Your Honour could inform the House whether or not the three minutes that we had to wait comes out of the hon. gentleman's time, and if so, would the Chairman or the Clerk inform the Hous e how much time the han. gentleman has left? 505

May 14, 1982 Tape 226 EC - 2 Ml _l..:._ C'JIA LRMJ\N • .1~: McNicholas): 1'hc three minutes docs not come out of his time . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. CHAIRMAN : lln has six minutes left. MR . llUTT: Now come on 'Fred ' give it to them . Give ~t to them old buddy. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon . the member for Stephenville . MR. STAGG: Thank you very much, Mr . Chairman . Now , I do not want anybody in the House to think that the member for Port au Port (i'tr . Hodder) was spurred SiJ6

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 227 MJ - 1 MR. F. STAGG: on by any motive other than purely partisan motives to call for a Quorum. This is the sum and substance of the intellectual activity that he puts into his representation as Opposition House Leader. Now, what I was talking about, Mr.Chairman, I was talking about one of the most momentous things that has happened in this House in some time, in that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) this morning got up and revealed the stark reality of the policy that is being followed by the federal government as far as one of our main resources is concerned, that main resource being the fishery. While the federal government holds these magnificent conferences, while it appoints Mr. Kirby to a Task Force and employs thirty-two people in his Task Force, I can tell Mr. Kirby one of the main solutions to the fishing problems in Canada, let the Can­ adians catch the fish. Let the Canadians catch the fish, and among those Canadians are a half million people called Newfoundlanders.

Let the Newfoundlanders catch the fish. I believe there are people here from New World Island. Did I hear that, Mr. Chairman, there are people here from World Island? Well, what better group of young people whose whole futures are tied up in the resolution of this issue ,where this House unanimously, this morning, passed a concenus resol­ ulion that we would send a telegram to the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. R. ~eBlanc) and to the Prime Minister express­ ing our outrage and our contempt for this kind of use or mis­ use of our resources. Mr.

Chairman, it is the sort of thing that has put forty-four mernners on this side of the House and eight members on the other side. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh,oh~ MR. STAGG: That is the reason. ~he people of the Province realized that the former Liberal caucus did not 507

M.ay 14, 1982 Tape No . 227 MJ - 2 MR . F. STAGG: stand as one with us on this . And I am very pleased this morning that the member for Fogo (Mr . B. Tulk),who is a neighbor of these people from Twillingate, spoke clearly, without equivocation that he stood as one with us on this ,and the members of the Oppositio n stood as one with us on this issue . SOME l-ION . MEMBERS: Ht:!ar , hear ! MR . STAGG : Now that is the type of thing that this House should stand for . This House must have unanimous opinions on something . There must be other things that \~e all stand together on as Newfoundlanders,and this is one.

We disagree with the Russians h<1ving 103,000 metric tons of fish taken from within our 200 mile limit. 103 ,000 metric tons of fish . Sure there would hardly be a person unemployed in Newfoundland if that resource were properly utilized . How did the Mi nister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) get it2 He has not revealed to us how he got this information . It was probably sent to him in a brown enve lop,because it is the sort of thing SOB

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 228 NM - 1 MR. STAGG: that the federal government would do surreptitiously behind closed doors in their dealings with -obviously the Eastern bloc countries are not going to tell about it,because they do not have any freedom of information in their countries. So, Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with an Interim Supply Bill and I, for the sake of making my arguments relevant, I am directing my comments to a head of expenditureVIII, Fisheries, and I am hoping that in 1985, after Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Lalonde and Mr. LeBlanc and Mr. Rompkey, and Mr. Tobin-that is the Mr.

Tobin on the West Coast, not the Mr. Tobin on the Burin Peninsula-- and Mr. Baker, and Mr. Rooney, and whoever the other one is, Mr. Simmons, after they have all bitten the dust because of their stand with the federal government, and their un­ willingness to stand up for Newfoundland, after they have all bitten the dust, after we send seven PCs back to Ottawa in 1984- MR. BUTT: Right on. Let her go. MR. STAGG: And let me tell you right here and now that I will be out campaigning night and day, door to door for whoever is the PC candidate in the district that I represent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

STAGG: I will be out door to door because this is the sort of thing that we are -we are getting off the fence on this, Mr_ Chairman. And the member for Twillingate (Mrs. Reid), let me tell you young people up there1 the member fo,~ Twillingate will be down -she may even be the candidate, who knows? She may even be the candidater Ifshe is the candidate.she is going to be the winner. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ 509

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 228 NM - 2 MR. STAGG: And in 1985, after we obtain concurrent jurisdiction with the federal government over fisheries, Head VIII in our heads of expenditure, Fisheries~is going to be an awful lot more than $12 million. We are going to need the money to look after it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you. Hear, hear! The hon. member for Torngat Yes, Mr. Chairman.I would like to thank the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) for giving me a copy of the expenditures for the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, Culture, Recreation and Youth, and Social Services. However, I do have some questions to ask the minister concerning the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development.

To beg the difference from the other two estimates that he gave me, it is all written in like it was written very fast by pen or pencil yesterday evening, or after hours last night,and I do have some questions to ask concerning those written in figures. r.ike,for example,April 1st., to May 15th., $270,000 has been placed in there for depot buildings with the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. DR. COLLINS: What page is it on? MR. WARREN: Well 1 I cannot see from here what page it is on, and I cannot even say what subhead because it was so bad when it came off.

But it is close to the end, about the la st eight or nine pages towards the end of the department. 51 n

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 229 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: Also, under subsection, I think it is 14-02, $11,500 for Grants and Subsidy, recreational funding, I am just wondering if this paid out during the election cam~~ign? Also,under depot buildings,this $270,000, I I noticeu during the election campaign that there was a lot of furniture for a particular community went into the district and I noticed that on crates of furniture that came in there it came from the business that my opponent was operating. I am just wondering now was any tenders called for this furniture.

It was ironic to see this furniture being shipped into Coastal Labrador during an election campaign and coming from the business that my opponent operates. Also,I would like to ask the minister -I would like to have more details because this is only just partial. I would like for it to be itemized, what this $270,000 has been used for. And also there was $475,000 used for supplies for the operation of the five stores in the district.

I understand that very little purchases are made by the I:eparbrent of Rural Agricultural and Northern r::eveloprrent before the requisitions are placed.And I happen to know, because I did work with the Rural Development for X number of vears,that requisitions by the depots are not placed be- fore some time in mid-April and by the time the tenders are called- in fact, there are no supplies as of now,or very little supplies I should say, as of now that have been purchased by any of the major suppliers. So I am just won?ering if this $475,000 is being used to pay last year's bills.

I am just wondering if this is being used to pay companies that the department purchased from last ye~r but were not paid out of last year's vote.And it does sound,probably,that that is what it could be and if it is, it is very poor budgetary planning on the part of the Department of Rural., Agricultural and Northern Development. Also,I would like to ask the 51 .,

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 229 SD - 2 MR . WJ\RREN : minister while I am standing, in ~ Department of Culture , Rccreati.cm <~nd Youth, and again I know the minister is new in that position, Minist0.r of CuJt.tn ·c , Rnr.r~ntion ;md Youth {Mr . Simms) however, I do notice that there has been quite an outstanding amount of money paid out in community grants for small sports and recreation facilities . I am just wondering h01o1 many of those grants were issued and given out to the various communities bet1 •een the dates of March 11th and April 6th? Those are two familiar dates 512

May 14,19!:l2 Tape No. ~30 ah-1 MR. WARREN; in my mind and,I would venture to say , when the minister can come back w~th that information we w~ll find that most of those grants were given out durinq the period of March 11th. to April 6th. when incidentally, an election campaign was held in that period. DR. COLLINS: Could you give me the subhead numbers there on that one? MR. WARREN: Okay. Under Community Recreat~on, 1803-03, Grants ana Subsiaies $150,u40. And I am just wondering how many dollars of this was spent between those famous twenty-two days of an election campa~gn. Mr.

Chairman, I am still not satisfied with the response that the minister gave yesterday on tne famous Murray Premises. The Murray Premises as we know have been paid $lb3,000 per year for rental space· as the m~nister sa~d yesterday. Hultiply that by four years - that is for a museum­ mult~ply that by four years ana it comes to roughly $6~0,000. The minister has also said that roughly around $500,000 has been spent on renovat~ons for the museum.

Now we are talking about Hay 14, 19S2, and there is nothing done in the museumr and here we have over $1 million , $1.25 million paid to Murray Premises by the taxpayers of this Province . SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MK. WARR-"N: And who was it pa~d to ana who owns the Murray Prem~ses but the co-ordinator, the PC co-ord~nator for Newfoudland and Labrador. Now, Mr. Chairman,is not the PC campa~gn co-ord~nator a very highly influential person in the PC party? That is who owns and operates the Murray Prem~ses and we have seen $1.25 million of taxpayer's money 513

May 14,1982 Tape No . 230 ah -2 HR . t'IARREN: being paid to tnat company ana as of now you cannot see anything at all concerning the museum down tnere . So I am just wondering how much longe r do the taxpayers of th~s Prov ~nce have to wal.t before they can qo dmm to tne Murray Prcm1.ses and view what their $1.25 million have paid for . So, ~1r . Chairman, I believe 1.t is ridiculous for tnc Department of Publ1.c tvor ks ana its minister to allO\-t such a th in g as this to happen , paying $500 ,0 00 for renovation s to a buildinq downtmm and it l.S not even reaay , p.tu s pay1ng $163 ,000 a year for rent for suc h a building 5 l 4

May 14, 1982 Tape 231 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: that the government is not even using. So, Mr. Chairman, I was thinking, whoever did up the contract with the individuals concerned with that company must be very closely connected with the individuals .. and I would venture to say that the monies paid out have really helped the Progressive Conservative Party of this Province. MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMS: Right on there! Right on! And also tell us about the teachers' payroll here in the Auditor General's rteport. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The han. the member for Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Chairman, there have been a number of comments made in the bon. member's remarks that are not quite accurate and I think some clarification is required. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Keeping in line with the new plan of han. members opposite to be reasonable and ~pproach things reasonably, I am prepared to try to give a reasonable explanation of the entire situation. First of all, the han. member says that the building is owned by the campaign manager of the Progressive Conservative Party or whatever. The fact of the matter is that the complex is owned by the St. John's Heritage Foundation. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: Atlantic Leasing acts as a collection agency for all the tenants down in that particular complex, all the tenants, not simply the museum. So that is a bit of an in~ccuracy. MR. WARREN: Mr. Ryan is involved. MR. SIMMS: I just ex~lained that Atlantic Leasing is the collection agency. Now if the han. mernher is reasonable - 5 ·1 5

Nay 14, 1982 NR . NEARY : MH. SIMMS : ' - SOME UON • MEMJ31mS : Nl t. SIM.'I1S: owns the building . Tape 231 EC - 2 Who is Atlantic Leasing? ·rhat i.s irrelevant . Oh , oh! We are talking about who The building is owned by the s·t. John 's Heritage Foundation, in any event . ~tR. WARREN : Mr . Ryan is involved. 1-tR . i:><"EARY: Do not confuse hi111 with facts . MIL SHtMS: Yes, my mind is made up . 'l'he other inaccuracy in the hon . member's comments is that the building is not being used at all .

Tho.t is obviously incorrect because the building is used by several tenants down there, and in addition to that, the Historic Division of my department already occupies a couple of offices do\-m there . But the real thing that needs to be cleared up in this particular matter is the fact that the facility that is available down there to be renovated for the use o£ a museum has gone to tender . 'fhe tender has in fact been awarded . The tender was awarded about two months ago , in fact, and there are some preliminary renovations no~r1 taking place . HR. WARREN: ~IR. SIMMS: It was awarded to whom?

It was awarded to a company called Marco Limited , who was the low bidder of nine or ten bidders . The Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) has the list there . So we are occupying two offices presently . The other thing is that the preli ~ inary planning and design work for the museum itself h - been ongoing 516

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 232 so - 1 MR. SIMMS: by the departmentfor the last couple of years. And hon. members, I am sure, with the full knowledge of how museums operate and are desi~ned and so on, would be aware that it is not unusual at all to take a couple of years to plan and desirrn such u. facility. In fac l, I just have as an interesting note that the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic located in Halifax was in the planning stages for over twenty-two years. There is a newspaper clipping there that will describe that if anybody is interested in reading it.

So it is not unusual, it takes UP to two vears, at least, to design and construct the dioramas l:hcy are call(!d, which is the <1isrl <IY of the exhibits and so on,and other complicated displays. The rationale,of course, is as follows: By agreeing to rent the space in the Murray Place,the Historic Resources Division provided the St. John's Heritage Foundation with the triple l\ tenant that was required to enable it to obtain the necessary financing to rehabilitate the whole of the Murray "Premises.

And the decision of the day was to do that anrl therefore prevent losing a building that is known as a very historic premise and prevent it from being destroyed and whatever. The other thing, of course, is that even though it has been some time since the department has been able to move in there ~Vith the Naval and Military Museum, the fact government provided the mechanism whereby those renovations could take place to accommodate the museum, I think, was a good decision,otherwise we would have lost the entire facility.

So those are a couple of thinqs that I wanted to su.y to cl car up StJme i na.ccuraci <~s for the hon. member and hope that it will be helpful in the discussion at least, the debate. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. Sl7

Mny 14, 1982 Tape No. 232 so - 2 MR . CIIAIR.Ml\N (J\lyward): The hon . the Leader of the Oppositi on . NR . NP.J\I~Y : Mr . Chairman , that is a nice try on the part or the ne1" t-ti.nistrr of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. SJ 10ms). It WtlS a nice try but it 1vi ll not wash, it will not fl.y . The hon . gentleman is not convinced himself , Mr. Chairman, he is not convinced himself . The hon . gentleman now is ne1v - the hon . gentleman was the Speaker up to a week or ten <lays ago - t .::~m not going to condemn ·the hon . gentleman but I am going to condemn the administration.

And the hon . gentleman should have more sense than to start off his career as a minister in the department by trying to cover up for incompetence, mismanagement on the p.::~rt of the administration . SOME HON . MeMBERS: Hear , hear . ~1H . Nf./\RY : The hon. gentleman should start out with a clean slate . MR . SIJ'.1MS : ---- 1\ polni o[ order, Mr . Chairman . MR. Cll/\ HU4AN: 1\ point of order, the hon . ~1inistcr of Culture, Hccre.Jtion ;:~nd Youth . M l~. SIMMS : T believe the hon . mcmbr.r accused me of covering up and I am sure the hon. member would 1.,.ant to 1o1ithdraw that cormncnt .

That certainly is not a parli.::~mcntary comment o.r parUamentary l'lay of addressing another member in this House . SOME BON. HE~UJERS: lleilr, hear . MR . NE/\RY : No, Mr . Chairman , I am not accusing the hon . gentleman of covering up . 5 i rl

May 14, 1982 MR. SIMMS: MR. NEARY: Tape 233 EC - 1 I accept the withdrawal. Well, you can call it what you like but there is no - what I said, Mr. Chairman, was this - well, if you want to deal with the point of order first. MR. CHAIRMAN (Avlward) : Yes. I rule that there is no point of order, that it is a difference of opinion between two hon. gentlemen. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chai~, let me put it another way, that the hon. gentleman attempted to find an excuse, a~d it was a feeble excuse. MR. HODDER: You can use cover-up too. MR.

NEARY: Yes, I know you can use cover- up but I am not going to usc it because it offends the hon. gentleman and it is not the hon. gentleman I am after. But what I am saying is that the hon. gentleman starting out a new career for himself as a minister of the Crown should not attempt to come up with such feeble excuses to cover up for mismanagement - now that is perfectly in order, the hon. gentleman knows that - mismanagement of the administration. Let us see what the Auditor General says about the matter.

Now as far as Atlantic Leasing is concerned, the only thing that I can say to the hon. gentleman is a rose by any other name smells just as sweet, and he can excuse the Tory campaign co-vrdination, or campaign manager or whatever he calls him, all he likes but, 'lr. Chairman, the real smacl:s o: a goodie, a noooie that was passed over on a silver platter. MR. BARRETT: You would like to think so, would you not? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, the Auditor General, as a matter of fact, draws attention to it. 519

May 14, 1982 Tape 233 EC - 2 MIL 131\HHE'J"I': Does he? MR . NEARY : Yes , he certainly does , on pc:~ q~ 52 of his c:~nnual report. MR . 13ARRf~T1' : lie docs not mention anything about the per son you ar e referring to? MR . NEARY : l-Ie does not mention anything about the person . I have not named the person I am referring to , but perhaps the hon . gentleman would care to do that . My colleagues tell me that the person in volved in this little goodie that was pas sed over by the administration that was not going to do any of thcs0 things at all when they came in 'Mr .

Clean ' there a coup~e or years ago, no goo dies fo r their buddies . MR . TULK : Hr . Pretender . MR. NEAR Y: The 'Great Pretender' of this Pro vince told us that there was going to be nothing like this go ing on . 1-Jell , let us see what the Auditor General says in Item 68 : Payment of $374 ,196 in rental and related expenditure for unoccupied space . MR . lvARREN: Now ! Three hundred and - MR. NEARY: Three hundred and seventy -four thousand dollilrs . I am not saying this, this is the Auditor General, the man who is the watchdog over the public treasury . That is up to Ja .nuary of this year, Mr .

Chairman - page 52 - up to January of this year, $37 4,000 paid out for unoccupied space . 52!1

May 14,198£ MR. NEARY: Tape No. 234 Now if that is not ah-.L looking after somebody I do not know what is. Ana the minister told us yesterday 1t is go1ng to cost ~5lb,OUO to renovate the place. MR. WARREN: $1 million. MR.NEARY: One million dollars, Mr. Cha1rman. WP. nre talking about $1 million. MR. YOUNG: Well spent. MR. NEARY: Well spent the bon. gentleman says. Well spent no doubt. And well-heeled too. MR.WARREN: I would say a lot of it was spent on tne PC campa1gn. MR.NEARY: Listen to this.

It was disclosed that the Department of Public Works and Services s1gned an offer to lease l3,35L square feet of space on June ~,1979 for a proposed museum. Now remember, Mr. Chairman, this is the hon. crowd that are talking about developing b1llion dollar resources offshore and they cannot even get a museum open in three or four years. MR. TULK: MR.NEARY: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.Nt:ARY: Going on four. Going on four years. Oh, oh! These are the people that are talk1ng about more control over the f1sheries, more control over our resources. Give us Hibernia.

And here they are, they sign an agreement on the third of June 1979 for a proposed Museum and it is still down there unoccupied1and it has cost the taxpayers so far about $1 million. MR. WARREI:l: MR.NEARY: Not bad. Not bad at all. The department also s1gned a lease with the landlord but the lease was not dated. On September 19,1979,the landlord advised the department 52 •j

May 14,1982 Tape No. 234 ah-2 Ml<. Nt:ARY: that a sixty day period allowed ln the lease for fltting up the prem1ses - MR. WARRL•;N: Sixty days he said, yes. MK.Nt:ARY: -s1xty days by the tenant- would he hccJln on October 1.,19/9 ilnci rental payments would commence on December: J ,1979. Now what does that acluu.lly mean'! 'I'hat means that s1xty days after the agreement was signed the accomodations should have been ready to be occupied. And why were they not? Here it 1s,as my hon. fr1end says, May one. Th1s is the mirl~lp nf May. MR. TULK: There is b25 square feet (inaudible) MR.

NEARY: The middle of May 1982, almost four years later,and the building is still not occupied. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: From December 19/9 - this is the Aud1tor General I am quoting - MR.WARREN: The Minlster of Public Works (Mr. Young) should resign right away. He should walk out. MK.Nt:ARY: This lS the Auditor General I am quoting a net just 11 stem: From December 19 7 ':! to January 28th 1982 the Department of Public Works and Services paid $350,000 in rent. MR. TULK: $300 a square foot. MR.NEARY: $323,000 in taxes for the premises.

But onlv fitted up - listen to ·this- but only fitted up,during the time they had,and occupied approximately 625 square f•et of space as of November 1981. MR. TULK: $600 a square foot. MR.NEARY: That is $600,my hon. colleague reminds me,a square foot. l\nd here is what the l\uditor General says about it, not the Opposition, not 521

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 235 NM - l MR. NEARY: the Liberals. The Auditor General, servant of this House, the watchdog over the Public Treasury, what does the Auditor General say? "In my opinion the department should have ensured that the rental space was fitted up as quickly as possible rather than pay $374,196 for space which was essentially unoccupied for a twenty-six month period." Now, Mr. Chairman,that in my opinion, smacks of political - what? - patronage? Mr. Chairman, would you put that item in the category of political patronage? MR. WARREN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. I'TARREN: MR. NEARY: How much - No. No.

What? You would not? Mr. Chairman, did the man who has been the whipping boy for this administration, the man who has been the whipping boy for so many years when he was Premier, did he do anything worse than this? MR. WARREN: No. No. He would not do that. No. MR. NEARY: do anything worse than this. MR. CALLAN: MR. TULK: MR. :li'ARREN: Show me. I do not think he could Big fisherman. $600 a square foot. I think the Minister of Finance should resign, should walk out today. MR. NEARY: And here you have, as I told the new member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin) yesterday, you have young Newfoundlanders who need wheelchairs, you have Newfoundlanders who need crutches, you have Newfoundlanders who need eyeglasses, you have Newfoundlanders who need dentures - MR. CALLAN: Operations. 523

'· '0 May 14, 1982 Tape No . 235 NM - 2 ~m . NEARY : -you have communities that need water and sewerage. You have Newfoundlanders who cannot go away for medical :~ttention to see specialists , you need \vater and sewerage in communities . Down in Sops Arm they need their road fixed up . MR . CALLAN: Pollards Point . MR. NEARY : Mr. Chairman, what do we have? we have $1 million, $1 million cold cash of taxpayers' money spen~ out for accommodations for a museum in 1979 and it is still not occupied . And I do hope, Mr .

Chairman , I do hope that the CBC will take their cameras and the NTV take their cameras and go down and take a picture of that $1 million white elephant down in the Murray Premises . t-1R. TULK : How much did the. member for Twillingate (Mrs . Reid) - MR. Nt::l\RY: 1\nd I hope that the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) will be able to tell us how long more we have to continue to pay out money for an unoccupied space? When will the place be opened so that ·the public of this Province can have a look at it . SOME liON . MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! MR. CHAIR1-1AN (Aylward) : The hon . Minister of Education . MS.

VERGE : Mr . Chairman , I \llant to comment just briefly on some of the remarks made earlier this morning by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) about the Auditor General 's Report provisions about the tl.!uchcrs payroll . 524

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 236 MJ - 1 MS. L. VERGE: The teacher's payroll is administered by the Department of Educationn It is a very large amount of money, since this year we will be paying teachers a total of something over !;>200 million. I just' received the Auditor General's report ~his morning, Mr. Chairman, as did all other members of this hon. House. I have not had an opportunity to read it carefully or to prepare the detailed responses, howPyRr, I am aware of efforts that are on croin.c_r to improve internal control in the teachers' payroll system.

T would like to quote from the Auditor General's Report, At the top of page 37, he says: " Since the last Report of the Auditor General to the House of Assenilily, the Department of Eduction set up a Steering Committee" - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MS. VERGE: -"and a Project Team to review the findings as disclosed in the Auditor General's letter of the 12 December 19 80 and also to review the 'l''~achers' nayroll System.

While I acknowledge that the Department of Education has acted upon the major recommendation in the Auditor General's previous report,"-and I think that has to be emphasized, Mr. Chairman, -" I must state that I believe that much of the work to date " -and he was writing this as of 14 September 1981 -"has been of a preliminary nature.

In actual fact, very few specific improvements have been made to the Teachers' Payroll System since the letter of 12 December 1980." And then he goes on to -"I urge that the Department of Exucation (with assistance from Treasury Board, the Department of Finance, and Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Linli ted) take immediate action to correct the deficiencies which exist and 525

1'1ay 14, 1982 Tape No . 236 t-1.1 - 2 MS. L. VERGE: have been reported to the Ocp.1rtmcnt of E<luc<~tion concerninq the Teachers' Payroll System." Mr . Chairman, I can assure hon . members that the Auditor General's recommendation, though the report was released and distributed only this morning, has been acted upon . The agencies and departments indicated have been enlisted to assist with the effort of improving and tightening interna1 control in the Teacher s' Payroll System. MR . S. NE/\RY : --- ----- Arc the police investigating this? MS. VERGE : Mr .

Chairman, yes the police were called in by the Depdrtment of Education this Winter to investiqatc certain irrcqularities whic h \-.rere uncovered, p~rticular ly in the payroll system for subsitute teachers, and at that tjmc,as the police were called in,changes were made, improvements were made in the procedure for accounting for payroll for substitute teachers . I can personally assure hon . members Qf that and 526

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 237 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: the internal auditors with the Department of Finance have aided that process and are continuing to oversee ongoing improvements in this system. What is needed is a major improvement in the computer programme for the teachers'payroll. It is a huge task and it is now in the process of being done with the Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Limited. So, Mr.

Chairman, I can report that while agreeing with the Auditor General's remarks about the need to make improvements in internal control for teachers'payroll, a lot of efforts have been exerted and, particularly, since the time he wrote this report, improvements have been made and will be made once the computer programme is revised and implemented. MR. NEARY: Were any cfiarges laid? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The han. Leader of the Opposition . MR.

NEARY: 1 ~r.Duld ask the minister if she could qivc us a little more information on why it was necessary to call the police in,and were charges laid as a result of their investigation? MR. CHAIRMAN: MS. VERGE: The han. Minister of Education. Mr. Chairman, as I indicated before, irregularities were uncovered by Department of Education personnel managing the teachers'payroll system about payments made to substitute teachers and the procedure for accounting for substitute teachers' pay.

That was early this Winter, at the beginning of 1982, and upon the immediate action of the supervisor of the payroll office, the senior personnel in the department, in consultation with me as the minister, contacted the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and requested that they immediately become involved and investigate. 527

...:, May 14, 1982 Tape No . 237 NM - 2 MS . V~RGE: Mr. Chairman, I cannot state with certainty whether any charge was laid, however, that is someLhiny that I could ascertain and report to the Chamber at a later timc:?. MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon . Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS : Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make some comments on some points that were raised . Firstly, the hon . member for Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren) asked a few questions .

In regard to some of the questions he asked on the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, he was cnquiring,what was the expenditure on depot buildings in the amount of $2 70, 000? I think that was one of his questions . That 52 A

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 238 SD - l DR. COLLINS: expenditure was to provide funds to complete the Davis Inlet retail store and oil storage tanks at Postville. The total cost is estimated at nearly $700,000 and the work was scheduled to begin this Sprinq so that this ~as a preliminary - started that funding so that the work could be planned and get underway as soon as possible. MR. WARREN: You made available that $700,000 but no work has been happening for the last five mo~ths. DR. COLLINS: It was allocated so that the work could be planned so that there would be an early start in the Sprin~. MR. WARREN: DR.

COLLINS: lias the contructor been paid"? I do not know if the contract has actually be let yet or not, but anyway, that amount of money was allocated for that purpose so that thr~ work could get underway as soon as possible. The han. member also asked in regard to depot operations, and I think the total amount there was over a million and a half dollars, but I think he was particularly concerned about a $475,000 expenditure for the purchase of supplies f.rom the 1st of Apri 1 to the 15th of May period. Those arc supplies to ullow the five retail stores to operate. Of course, the retail stores have to - MR.

WARREN: this time of the year. DR. COLLINS: in the year - MR. WARREN: now. DR. COLLINS: But they do not buy anythinq - purchase goods fairly early They do not buy anything - and then they retail those to the individuals in the area. And that was what that $475,000 was for, it was for inventory. MR. WARREN: nut they do not buy it until the last part of May. 52~-~

May 14 , 1982 Tape No . 238 so - 2 MR . IIODOI!:R : -- -·- - In one I>~Ord it is pork barrelling . OR . COLLINS : l-Ien if the hon . member thinks it ls pork burrclllng to buy supplies for people in Labrador , you know , that is his problem . 1 do not have any problem . r think the people in Lubrador deserve to have supplies . SO ME liON . M~~10ERS : llea r, hear . DH . COL.LINS : nut if the hon . member feels that that is H ron~J, pcrhops he could Hritc me a letter on it and I will sec if I can get it corrected . MR . HODDER : MR . WliRREN : DR . COLLINS : \'/ere tnere any bar rels of pork in th e supplies?

They did not purchase anything? But I would like to have it laid out that he ,.,ants j t corrected . He docs not want the people in the Lilbrador communities to have supplies . Mn . WJ\ImEN : ------ They have not purc hased anyth ing . DR . COl,LINS : What arc they supposed to do , ar~ they supposed to cat l>~i.l<l herr ies or somet hing . 1\N liON . ME!.ffiER : Let them eat cake . ~1R . 1'1/\RREN : Let them usc the money . DR . COLLINS : Let them eat cake , he say s. l\lriqht anyway , - MR . W/\RREN : '!'el l the truth . Dlt .

COLLINS : /\bout the recreationill <Jrants , that ·.vus in 1803 -03 , r think the hon . member says , I hav e not found anythinq under thilt subhead there , 1803-03 refers to Transportation and Conwunications . f.1R . 1-l/\llllEN: No . no . on the same pa<Je you wen ' on just now , T cn nn ot read the number there , you see - $11.')00 . OR . COLLIN!> : $11 , ')00 . MH . \~1\RRP .• N : Yes , on the same page yo u were on iust now . :>ee i.L clo wn there - Recreational Funding . On the some paqe . OR . COLLINS : Under Community Recreation? S3n

May 14, 1982 MR. WARREN: and subsidies . DR. COLLINS: $150,400? MR. WARREN: Tape No. 239 NM - 1 Recreation funding, yes, grants Oh, grants and subsidies, No, $11,500. This is in Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development now. DR. COLLINS: Oh, I am sorry, I thought you were in Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. WARREN: No, well , the one in Rural, Agricultural and Northern Duvelopment first. DR. COLLINS: I sec. Well possibly I will certainly get the hon. member the details on that. I do not have it right at my fingertips. The other comments I should make refer to the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary)who made a statement that government was not paying its bills and people were going into bankruptcy. Now I wish the hon. Leader of the Opposition would send me some names and I would certainly have them investigated. There is no doubt about it government owes monies to certain firms. MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: How much, Mr. Chairman? Government is a very larqe business. we have payables like any business have payables.

We have been maki~g special efforts, knowing the economic situation in the Province, we have been making special efforts to try to expedite our payments and this has been a special effort put on at each departmental level. Treasury Board gets reports on this on a monthly basis, and we arc trying to concentrate in this area so that payments will be made just as quickly as possible. Now there has to be processing of invoices and validation that the supplies, or whatever they are, have been received and so on and so forth. So there is a time lag. What we are aiming for is to get payments made at 53 ·1

..l. May 14, 1982 •rape No . 239 Nl-1 - 2 DR. COLLINS : least 1-1i thin u fifty day period, 1-1hich is not too bad in many cases . And I might report to t.he Committee that pretty well each mo nth is sh owing an improvement. and the vast majority of payments are now made within a thirty day period .

NoH 1.;e arc anxious of course to get our ~oyments maoe early,because hon . members will remember t..hat qovernment. has undertaken to pay interest on outdated accounts if it can be shown that the reason for the delay is because of some government cause . 'l'he hon . member then, of course. told us a little filiry tale, he told us a fairy tale about the AG 's Repo rt.. , that he was instrumental in getting it on the table and so on and so forth . Now he says that I had the thing in my hand for weeks and weeks. I have to report to the nous e that r 1-1as on holdiay after the - wh at happened there earlier on?

Oh , yes , there was an election on. T.here was an election on and I think there lvas a very aood result from the election . I took some

part in that,so I decided to take il little holiday and I did not get back from th<Jt holiday until just about. the ea rl y pa rt of May . I can assure the hon . member I did not take the Auditor General's Report with me on holdiay . I certainly did not see the Auditor General 's Report until I came back from holiday around the early part of May . So I could not have had i 1: in my hands mu ch longer than two v1eeks . In actual fact, lf I remember correctly , 53 i'

May 14 , 1982 Tape 240 c:c - l DR . COLLINS : I got ~ t around the 3rd or 4th of May, sometime like that . And as I pointed out to the Committee yesterday , an obli9ation is laid upon me to table it within a week - within a week, and I tabled it within five days . My God! I think that is tremendous performance . \vhat per formance ! S0l-1E HON . MEl'1BERS : near , hear ! DR . COLLINS : So, you knov ,•, it was just a littla fairytale . There were some children here earlier on .

It is too bad they left because they would have liked to have heard tha end or that little !airytal c Lhe hon . the Leu~ er of the Opposition told . Then we got back, I think, on to the Murray Premises again and the hon . the Minister for Culture, Rec reation ~nd Youth (l'lr. Simms) , I think, gave a beautiful exposition of that and there hardly needs to be another word said on it . But nevertheless, it did come up later on so I do have to just say a word or two.

Firstly it was suggested that the space had been unoccupied for four years , in other words, that government was paying rent for four years for unoccupied space . Well, now, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition himself pointed out that we did not have an obligation to begin payinq rent until the l~t of December, 1979 . Similarly , he refers to 1979 to 1980 to 1981 to the early part of 1982 It is nt the most two and one-half years, a bit less than two and one-half years . so I think somcone's addit ion is a little bit wrong over there . ~e other statement was made that $1 million had been paid out.

That is not so. In actual fact, rents to date on a two and one-hal( year 53.1

May 14, 1982 OR . COLLINS: $282,000 . M.R • N E:l\H Y : $374,000 . •rape 240 EC - 2 basis \vorks out at about The Auditor General says OR. COLLINS: T said a two and one -half year basis ~ t $113,000-odd . MR . NEARY : Are you calling the Auditor General a liar? DR. COLLINS: I am just saying the rent we pay . \ve pay $113,492 in a twelve-month period and we have been payinq rent for a little bit less than ti·/O and one-half years, so if you multiply that by t1o~o and one-half it comes out to be $282,000 . Nolo~ as far as the fitting up costs go, thare has not been all that much payment yet .

There has only been a cash outlay, I think, of something of the order of about Sl50,000 . There has been a contract entered into . It was only entered into in the early part of February of 1982 ,so there has been very little expenditure bet1veen the time that we took occupancy of the property do\m there and the present date . ! thl.nk it is ilbout the order of - the cash flow is about $150,000 only . so that is considerably less . •rhc amount of rent paid and the actual outlay of cash for the fitting up to date is considerably less than $1 million .

Now the hon. the Leader of the Oppositi on said we should have got the place fitted up within that 60-dav p~riod . Well, YOU know, the hon . the Minister of Culture , Rccr~~t.in~ Rnd Youth (Mr . Simms) jus t han .• ~d me this thing here and , you know, here is someone 1·ho v1orked through SJL

May 14,1982 Tape No. 241 ah-1 DR. COLLINS: seventeen plans over twenty-two years to fit up the new Maritime Museum in Halifax. And the hon. Minister or Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) tells me that we arc hoping to open this museum,and I am sure we will,in the middle of 1983 which would be a four year period. Imagine, we are going to set up a museum in a four year period when in Halifax it took them twenty-two years. I mean,what performance: I mean,that is tremendous! SOME HON MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR. COLLINS: So I think, Mr. Chairman, that pretty well covers the points that I had to respond to, I believe.

I thank the hon. members for the comments they have made in regard to this matter. I think that we will probably go into- well,I know we will go into greater detail onthis whole subject when the main estimates come down. So with those words I move the resolution be adopted and a bill subsequent thereto be brought in. MR. NEARY: Ilis Honour hu.s not arrived yet, I presume,so we still have a few minutes. MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: I could not let the remarks of the hon. gentleman go by , Mr. Chairman, without responding.

First of all he got up and the excuse he gave for not tabling the Auditor General's Report earlier was that he was on holidays. Well to listen to the hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman, talk about the finances of this Province and the explanation he just gave for the Murray Premises,you would swear the hon. gentleman was still on vacation. And then he talked about thebills that were owing. He admitted, the hon. gentleman finally admitted that 53J

~ M<ly 14 ,1982 Tape No . 241 ah-2 MH ~ : there are outstanding bjlls . 1\nd r .:lm t<~lking about bills now outstanding over and .:lbovc the ordin<~ry couple of months. It usually tukcs a couple of months to process invoices, to process i rwojccH l:h< 1t come to the 'JO VcrnmenL f.or work nnd scr·vicc provirlccl . Now th<~ hon . qentlc-.mt~n ls admittinrr that the government docs owe mo ney . And do you know why, Mr . Chairman, the hon . gentleman is admitting it? lt is because the government is broke . That is why he is admitting it . This government is broke and cannot pay their bills.

They cannot afford to pay their bills . Mr. Chairman , all you have to do -ar:~ybody in this !louse who has any sense at all , nny common sense , who wants to read between the lines , all he has to do is to look at the Auditor Ge neral 's Report just tabled in the House today and read about the Department of Finance and read the comments of the Auditor General on the public debt of the Provi nce and the sinkinC1 fund . And read the comments of the Auditor GenerAl on the weaknesses in procedures for rccoverinu of debts that are overdue by the (]ovcrnment . 1\nd read about the overstatement of 536

May 14, 1982 Tape No. 242 SD - l MR. NEARY: $19 million in net debenture and other debt, overstatement. Read about some of the items - I must say, Mr. Chairman, I have to comment the Auditor-General.For the first time in recent years that I remember, at least, the Auditor-General is paying particular attention to the public debt and to the handling of the finances of this Province. And reading between the lines, Mr.

Chairman, it is frighteniny, the observations of the Auditor-General are frightening; the lack of control, the lack of statements, true and accurate statements on the financial position of this Province, the state of the financial debt, the state of the finances of this Province. And we will have more to say about that next week when we can analyse the Auditor-General's Report in more detail. But I could not let the remarks of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) go by without raising this matter now, briefly, Mr. Chairman, whi::_e we are still on Interim Supply. And I have to say aga!n, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister of Finance is either ignorant of the way that the finances of the Province are run and controlled,or he docs not care, he does not care, fie makes irresponsible statements, he makes statements that are gobbled up by certain newsmen without question. They take his word for it. They do not look beneath the surface, they do not get the other side, ~hey just say, 'He has a legal opinion; they just take it hook, line and sinker. I would not trust too many on that side very far. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, either the Minister of Finance is making these irresponsible statements in ignorance of his responsibilities and his job as the protector of the Public Treasury,which he is not,or he is uncaring, he does not care, He just makes the statements Mr. Chairman, in an irresponsible manner. And, Mr. Chairman, 5 -7 j,

Mo.y 14, 1982 Tape No. 242 SD - 2 MR . NEl\RY : [ will say this, that when the word 'I<)CS out in the 1\uditor-Gcnera1's Report, if I was the ~inist0r of Finance - MH. BAlUU,:'l"l': Which you will never be. SmH: liON. 11"1~1lfo:W-;: Oh, oh. MIL NIO:/\IIY: T c; 'm only remind hon. qcntlcmcn Mr. Chairman, that I have sat in just about every scat in this House except on e o.nd that one is right across there - look. 'l'hi.lt .is the only scat - I started down there where the member for. !lumber West (Mr. Gai r·

d) is, I started twenty years ago, l believe I so.t in every scat on 531-1

May 14, 1982 Tape 243 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: that side of the House. And I sat in just about, I think, every seat on this side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! MR. NEARY: I have occupied every seat except one and I have my eye on that. I have my eye on that one over there, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: It may take a couple or three years for me to get over there. MR. BARRETT: You cc-uld not sit in thut scut if you chanqed to P.C. MR. NEARY: One thing about politics, Mr. Chairman, in an election there are no semi-finals, there are no playoffs, you either win or lose. And sometimes even in hockey, games have bee