PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Numbers 4th. Session 34th. Geaeral Assembly VERBATiM - -n "'"'..,.. t(Ct"'Ut( I ,, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

The House met at 3 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. JOHN CROSBIE: I rise on a point of privilege, the point of privilege having to do with a breach of the privileges of this Rouse. My point of privilege is this, that the hon. the Pr~mier has breached the privileges of this House by showing disrespect for the dignity of a House by reason of his refusal on Wednesday, yesterday February 25, to provide the informatio~ requested in

Part 4 of Question (71) on the Order Paper - which asks whether the Gcvernment had approved the appointment of an independent person by Newfoundland REtl'ining Co. Ltd., to furnish to the Government an opinion confirming the feasibility of the Oil Refinery Project at Come-by-Chance, and if so what was the name of that person? He refused to answer that question yesterday on the ~rounds that it would be injurious to the public interest he said, and there were certain negotiations und~r way. So he refused to answer the whole of question (71).

Yet this morning February 26, on radio station V.O.C.M. at about ten fifteen this morning, the hon. the Premier announced to the world that the company had been appointed to do this feasibility study. Universal Oil Products of Chicago, he gave the name of the company. Re said they had carried out the feasibility study. Re went on to say that the study had found the project to be feasible. Now Mr.

Speaker, it is well known, a well kno= rule of parliamentary practice, that when Parliament or the House of Assembly is open, that the statement made having to do with government business by the leader of the government our ministers are given in th~ House first, not just given to anyone outside the House or the public. But this is even a greater breach Mr. Speaker, in my submission, that a question tabled in the Rouse yester,lay, the hon. Premier refused to answer on grounds it was against the public interest.

He knew this House would be opening again this afternoon at three o'clock, yet at ten fifteen this morning he gave this information to the world, after refusing to give it to this House in response to a question tabled. And according to the rules I have a motion prepared that this House censurea the hon. the Premier for his disrespect of the dignity of the House by his refusal on Wednesday, February 25, to provide the information requested in

Part 4 of Question (71) at his subsequent disclosure of the information and requested to radio station V.O.C.}!. on Thursday t/.}

.. - February 26, 1970 Tape 1197 Page 2 1Dorning February 26, and request an apology therefor. I have several copies of the motion here if your Honour needs them. a I submit Hr. Speaker,as prima facie a question of the breach of the privileges to this House and all the members therein. R9N. J. R. SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is wrong as usual. In the !louse yesterday I did not give the name of the independent firm that the Government are to employ to make an independent study on behalf of the Government. An independent study of the feasibility.

I did not give it, and I have not yet given it in the House or out of the House. Out of the House this morning I gave the name of the firm that did the feasibility study for the Shaheen Natural Resources Company. The Shaheen organization have engaged the services of U.O.P/ Universal Oil Products of Chicago, and I that described;\in my talk on V. O.C.M. this mornin~. U.O.P. are not the firm engaged by the Newfoundland to make the independent survey. U.O.P are the firm engaged by the Shaheen people, so the hon. gentleman is making a jackass of himself again. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, on that point, I do not accent that explanation MR. SMALLWOOD: ~~o cares whether the hon. gentleman accepts it or not - MR. CROSBIE-. Mr. Speaker, the question asked: Has the Government approved the appointment of an independent person by Newfoundland Refining Company Ltd. to furnish to the Government an opinion under the Agreement Newfoundland Refining Company Ltd. is obliged to appoint this company to furnish thP. opinion, and the Government is required to approve the appointment. So this company Mr.

Speaker, the information is given about this morning is the company appointed by Newfoundland Refining that gives that feasibility study. And that question yesterday was refused to be answered and in the debate the hon. the Premier refused to give the information, and today he went on the radio to give it. MR, SPEAKER: Before we enter into any further debate on this matter I have to say this, that as yet I have not made up my mind if the hon. for St. John's ~est has established to my satisfaction a prima facie case of breach of privilege whether it is or not.

I will take this whole m~tter under advisement briefly and I will advise the House later in the same sitting as to whether in my opinion there has been a breach, and whether or not I accept the motion. Can we continue · for the time being with the routine orders, and I will give my judgement on

February 26, 1970 Tape /197 Page 3 this before this Session is through - before this sitting is through this afternoon. MR. THOMAS HICKEY: I rise on apoint of personal privilege, arising out of the debate last evening with regards to a remark made by the hon. the Premier with respect to another hon. member of this Reuse. That point Mr. Speake.:-, I rose to a point of order. I reouested that his Roncur the Deputy Speaker, who was in the Chair•direct the Premier to withdraw that remark - or he afforded the same treatment that I had been afforded t,m years.

I regret that I am unable to accept the decision er the ruling of his Honour the Deputy Speaker MR. SMALLWOOD: Out of order! Why let the hon. gentleman go on when he is clearly out of order? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, it is understandable the hon. the Premier thinks I am out of order because I am t~lking about him. MR. SPEAKER: What I want to do is hear enough of the hon. gentleman's statement to know what it is he is seeking, It appears to me at the present time that what he is now trying to attempt to do is to challenge the ruling of the Chair last evening on another matter.

That challenge should have been made then, and put to the House - if he wished to challenge the ruling it should have been done immediately, obviously it is plain to see by all hon, members that the challenge of the Chair should have been made at that particular time and not at the next sitting. So his ~oint of privilege is not a point of privilege that is well taken. MR. RICKEY: May I just add another few remarks to that? I did challenge the ruling last night - MR. SPEAKER: There was no challenge that was effective at least.

If the hon. member wishes to carry the matter further, there could he other methods, but I ac not going to attempt to instruct him in that. If he wishes to challenge the ruling of the Chair, it should have heen done rir.ht there and then. Next order. MR. HICKEY: I rise on another point of privilege. Hy point of privilege this time is that I have been discriminated against this House. I was suspended two years ago for making a statement - why does not the Premier listen, why does he not let me speak? I am sick of beinP, i~terrunted. MR.

SPEAKER: Will the hon. member say what he is attempting to say so that I 'I J 't

Tape UY/ Page 4 can understand whether he is in order or not, MR. HICKEY: I will be glad to do that Mr. Speaker, if the Premier will keep his mouth shut and listen. I am getting fed up with this. The rule.of this Rouse your Honour apply to all hon. members, MR. SPEA..'<ER: We are not talking about the rules of the House. Will the hon. member please make his point of privilege which he is now begging the House to hear? MR, HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I will do .1ust that.

My point of privilege is this, that I have been dis~riminated against inasmuch as I was suspended for three sitting days for making the same remark the hon. the Premier made last night. MR. SPEAlCER: I must interrupt the hon. member. That is rehashing something that occurred last year and the remedy was last evening for the point of order that was taken before. I am afraid on both accounts I have to tell the hon. member that he is not in order right now. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I respect your ruling - I will accept your ruling and I will take other action. HR. SPEAKER: Next item. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I intended to make a brief statement when your Honour called order, but I deferred the hon. member for St. John's West, so that he might rise to a point of personal privilege. The point to which I rise to to express as I am sure I do, the sentiment of this House, when I say that we feel considerable satisfaction over the speed and efficiency and relative accuracy~~ the Hansard so far in this present Session. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SMALU:OOD: It is a credit I think to the system that was set up last year at the suggestion of the hon. the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources.

It is a credit to the staff who are doing it. It is a credit to the young ladies who are doing the typing and I think we should all show our appreciation, and I think we have already done that. HR, HICKMAN': Will the hon, the Premier nermit a question, with reference to Hansard? Since this Sassion of the Hou3e commenced, it has been indicated that last year's Hansard has now been edited and ready for publication, Could he 'I 3'

give the hon. members - MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not ready, and it has to he done all over again - MR. RICKMAN: Will we get it this Session of the House? ~_!.LWOOD: I am extremely doubtful th~t this Session - the Hansard of the current Session will be done and at the same time, the re-editinr,, the re-doing almost of last years, which was an utter atrocity. A complete atrocity in its editing. That 1,as to be all done over again, it is a monumental task. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (Minister of Health): May I on behalf of the Government, made a brief statement with respect to the report of the Royal Commtssion on the St.

La,;;rrence Fluorspar Mines. I think it is a matter of some interest Sir to the House. Since the Government received the re~ort of the Royal Commission, which was several months ago my colleagues and I together with our officials have been making a detailed study of the report's recommendations with a view towards implementing them. The recommendations Sir being examined are many I believe, they nlll!lber about eighty, and they are highly complex. The problems of implementing them are also very highly technical.

In an effort Sir to ensure that ~e take the best possible course in this extreme~ly important matter, my officials in the Denartment of Hea)th have been working in the closest possible co-operation with counterparts in the Government of Canada. A medical specialist

MR.ROBERTS: Specialist in industrial medicine and hygiene. A member of the staff of Department of i~.c.tional Health and l·/clfare at Ottawa. Hho was in N'.11.l'foundland recently for a period of several days. This man who has long been greatly connected with the situation at St, Lawrence met with several of my officials and I might add officials of some of my colleagues to discuss the various recommendations and proposals in the report. lie has now returned to Otta1,;a to prepare his report to us, Sir, we expect to receive this within the next week or two. Receipt of the report of the Ottawa officials Mr.

Speaker will enable us to take decisions on several quite important points. When it is received, my officials and my colleagues and I will cc11tinue the investigations we are making at the Government's direction we intend to implement as many of the reports, recommendations as possible, Sir, we intend to do so only on the basis of the best possible advice. As I said we are seeking that advice. Once we receive it we can detide our course and we will ast quickly. I should add, Sir, that several of the Royal Commission's recommendations have been inpler.tented others will be very shortly.

The approp•'·iate time we will gladly supply details of these futther actions to the House. }IR. IlELL S : Mr. Spe;iker, can the minister tell us whether or not it is anticipated that he could advise the House :iefore the ena of this sc::,:,iun w:ii.::-, -:of !:he recommendations will be implemented? Is that anticipated? MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would hope well before the end of the session , within the next few weeks if all goes well Sir. Presenting Renorts of Standing anrl Select Committees: HON • H. J CALLAH~l: :-:r.

Speaker, I ask leave to table the Auditor General's Replfirt and financial statements to the 31st of :-rarch 1969 of the :,ewfoundland Farm Products Corporation. I might say that copies are being prepared to be forwarded to the Clerk's Office for distribution to the House. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House to table several reports regulations and so forth that by statute I am required to tahle. These are Sir, the Newfoundland ~-fedical Care Insurance Beneficiaries and Enquiries ..Amendment Regulations 1969. Newfoundland Hedical Care Insurance Insured Services Amendment Regulations 1969.

Food and Drug }fargarine Amendment Reguht t,,ns 1969. The Food and Drug Reconstituted and Recombined Milk Rer,ulations 1970. And in addition Sir, the number of series of by-la1,;s issued under the Dental Act.No. 82, 1968. All of these Mr. Speaker, were issued in 1968 and under normal circumstances indeed by 1/ 7 -~ ' ..

law they should have been tabled in the House at the last session. Recently, Sir, I directed my officials to check with the Clerk and he tells us there is no record they have been tabled, so I now table these by-laws which include the by-laws governing the practise of Dental Technicians The by-laws governing the practise of Dental Hygiene and Dental Hygienists. The by-laws and the code of ethics of the Newfondland Dental Association. These of course have been approved by the Governor in Council, Sir. In addition Xr. Speaker, may I table the report of Births,l1arriages and Deaths in the Province for the year 1968.

There are sufficient copies available to the House. May I add Sir as well that the annual Report of my department for the year ending 31st Harch last is now in the course of production, ar.i advised by my officials of the Deputy Minister of Services has assured us that we will have that report on Xarch 10. I .rill undertake to table it as quickly as I have it. MR.CROSBIE: Will the hon. the minister answer a question, can he assure the House that these dental by-laws and regulations have plenty of teeth in them? MR.ROBERTS: M The hon. gentleman has bitten off more than he can chew again. HON. L.R.CURTIS: Xr.

Speaker, I r,ive notice I will on tomorrow ask leave:sto introduce a Bill, 11 /m Act Respecting A Pension Plan For the Constabulary Force of Newfoundland, The Officers And Hen Of The St. John's Fire Department And The Officers And Hen Employed At That Prison Commonly Known As lier Majesty's Penitenti11.Iy." I also give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend ?he Companies Act." ANS\lERS TO QUESTIONS: MR.C.ALLAl!A.'l'_: ~Ir. Speaker, could we revert to motions? MR.SPEAKER: Notice of motion, yes. MR.CALLAIIA.'l'~ ~Ir.

Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following Bills, A !Hll, "An Act '.Respecting !!otorized Snow Vehicles." A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Undeveloped Nineral Areas Act." /u'lSWERS TO OUESTIO:,s: ?fil.~L\LL:mop..:._ Mr. Speaker, o~ today's Order Paper, Question No. Bl. in the name of the hon. the member for Burin, I have to inform him that there has been no chan"e in this matter since the date on which he ceased to be a member of the Cabinet. He woold of course be very familiar with the situation up to that date. Question !fo. 82:

MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker is that question sup!)lementary? The rest of the member of the House and the public were not mer.ibers of the cabinet then and does that answer mean that there is assistance or no assistance? sensible to . the member for liurin not to us. The answer would only be MR.SMALLWOOD: Hr. Speaker, I have answered the question put to me by the hon. the member for Burin. Question No. 82: MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order the question has not heen answered. It asks whether any assistance financial or otherwise has been given, and it has not been said whether it is or not?

MR.SPEAKER: There is not debate in connection with the question whether it is answered or whether Jt is not, is not to be the subject of comment. MR. SMALLl-lOOD: In answer to Question 82, on today's Order Paper in the name of the hon. member for Burin, I hav~ to say there has been no change in the facts since. SOME HON. ME~ERS: Shame! Shame~· Shame! MR. SMALLWOOD; }1r. Speaker, God can forgive any crime or any sin, except that of stupidity. Stupidity, stupid men, stupid men.

Are all ministers, presently ministers and all who have been ministers not all aware of the fact, fact that what happened when they were ministers they know all about. They are fully re-sponsible for, and they have no right in this House to be asking questions on their own actions. I have no right to direct a question to any colleague any minister of the cabinet. I have no right. MR.WELLS: Why not? MR.SMALLWOOD: r have no right, under- the rules of the House I have no right. It is the rules of the House. It is thP- rules of the !louse. MR.SPEAKER: Let us not have a debate concerninp, ql:estions.

As I said earlier the answer to questions or the absence of an answer is not subject to comment. MR.SMALLWO_QE_: I can face anything but ignorance. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of order. I am not going to sit here and listen to that nonsense, the position is quite clear, the questions are asked for the information ofaall hon. members of the House and not for the infor­ mation of any one particular member of cabinet or ex-cabinet minister. MR. SPEAKER: This is not a debateable point whether the answer is required no matter who aske the question or who is replying to the question.

The matter of tha question itself or whether it is answered acturately or whether it is J

answered at all is not to be under the rules of the House not to be the subject of a comment and another course must be taken if the questions are not repl~ed to, to the satisfaction of ahy hon. member. MR.S!1ALLWOOD: : In answer to question No. 82 on the Order Paper of today I have to inform the hon. gentleman that there has been no change, no additional facts not additional information since the date on which he ceased to be a member of the cabinet up to which date he was responsible for everything that happened. SOME HON. }fEMBF.RS: Shame! MR. SMALLWOOD: Stupid: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame.

MR SM'.ALLWOOD: Jackass. MR.SPEAKER: Order please. The word jackass is one the words ,- I do not know what page it is in Beauchesne, but is one of the things listed amongst unparliamentary phrases. MR.HtCKEY: On a point of order would the Premier take it back? MR.SMALLWOOD: It is taken back, yes. MR.SPEAKER: Order please? MR.SMALLWOOD: In reply to question no. 87, in thclpame of the hon.member for St. John's West,

(1) Yes.

(2) Soon after the convention at which he was defeated, and I was eiected. SOME HON. MEMBER:·: Is that an answer? MR.S?·!ALLWOOD: Are hon. members so ignorant that they do not know that they are not allowed tb. Col!IITlent on answers. Not subject to debate not subject to comment. It is against the rules. It is the rules. The rules not the people. It is the rules of the House. MR.llil:CKEY: Hr. Speaker, a. point .. cf order Hr. Speaker, ;;·:.~,ce when did the Premier become so conscious of the -r·,;J..:,:; of the House, he broke them last night a complete violation He was not man enough to take it back.

MR.SPEAKER: Will the business of the !louse continue and let us have it done in an orderly manner? MR.SNALL\~OODt I do not know if it is Your Honour's d11~y or mine or any, the duty of a!':!-" hon. member of the House, I do not know, to inform ignorant members of their rights or their wrongs in the matter of questions. ls it the duty of every hon.Member to read the rules and understand them. I did not ~ake the rules. I did not make

them, MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, could I ask a supplementary question? In connection with question 87, did the appointrncnt :,;ive anythinr; to do with the fact that the hon, minister removed himself from the leadership race in support of the hon. Premier? -- MR.SMALLWOOD: The answer is yes. One of the reasons also why the hon. gentleman who asked the question is not deputy premier and above .:tll why he is not premier. MR.CROSBIE: He would not want to be. MR.SMALU/OOD: He would not want to be.Premier? MR.CROSBIE: Not deputy premier.

MR.Sl!ALLWOOD: This is a credible statement, This is credible, MR.CROSBIE: He would not want to be deputy premier he said, not to you anyway. Not to the hon. gentleman. MR,S}!ALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman's trouble is he does not want to be deputy to anyone. There is not anyone on earth to whom he would like to be deputy, MR.SMALLWOOD: question, ANS\i'ERS TO QUESTIONS: I am :msi.•ering that question, }Ir. Speaker. That supplementary HR.CROSBIE: And what about the hon, modest gentleman, who would he like to be ciepu~y too? MR.

SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman will never get over it, will he? reminding him so that he w!ll not get over it. MR.RROSBIE: Yes, you do that, modest gentleman. MR,SMALL1~00D: I will keep doin!; it. MR.CROSBIE: The hon, modest gentleman. And I keep MR.SMALLWOOD: lrid the hon. disappointed, frustrated and embittered gentleman; MR.CROSBIE~ Never been happier than the last three days. Never been happier. MR.SPEAKER: Order. Will this cross fire cease because we are trying to get the answers to questions, that is the business before the House right now.

MR,Ha:CKHAN: Let us cut out the lovers quarrel, MR.CROSBIE: Hell that no fury like a woman scorned, MR.SMALLWOOD':' Or a defeated candidate, For leadership of a party. MR.HICKEY: Only nonsense is eoing on here the Premier should get on with his work. MR,SMALLWOQQ.:._ Question No. 91 in the name of the hon. member for St, John's West is somewhat diffcult question to answer, the first part of it. )

(1) · The answer to t hnt is yes or no depcmlinn on what is meant by the tem Continen t al Shelf. ( 2) llritish Ne"'foundland Exploration l.td., popularly known as £rinex. Pan American Petroleum Corp . \..'hich i~ owned by I think Imperial 011. & Standard Oil of New Jersey; /\lherta Export Refinin/: Co . Ltd; Sha!leen T Na1:ural Resources Inc.; C,rnn<linn l!omcstcad Oils; and Mobil Oils Canada Ltd. I will (repeat) . I/ _/_

February 26th., 1970 Tape no. 99 Par,e 1 Has the Government of Newfoundland apreed with the Government of Canada that the Government of Canada has exclusive control over petroleum or natural ras or minerals located in th~ continental shelf or the lands under the sea off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador7 Certainly we have not agreed with the Government of Canada that the Government of Canada ha?e exclusive control over petroleum or natural ~as or minerals located in lands under the sea off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. The answer is no we have not.

HR~_f_Ry__sB~E: Then why in the bud~et speech in the hon. gentleman's Government last year did the hon. gentleman's administration state that we have no leial or constitutional claim in these areas? '1-lR_~JY!!•..!-}~_9_0~ The answer, }~r. Speaker, is that the Government did no such thing in the budget speech of last year. ORDERS OF THE DAY ~--~~9!,.Q__ COLLINS: Hr.

Speaker, I rise, Sir, to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a matter of ur~ent public importance; namely the threatened close-down of the paper mill of Price Newfoundland Limited ,;.t G:.:and Falls for Ii 1)etiod uf possibly cwo monchs, because or a restriction il'lposed by ?!exico on the i~portation of Canadian newsprint and the consequent interruption of shipments to that country from Price Brothers.

The close down of this }:ill at Grand Falls could seriously affect the earning power of apprQidma tely 1,200 mill workers and also the earninrs of hundreds of employees in the woods' operations, Hot only will:the town of Grand Falls be seriously affected but this will apply also to Bishop's Falls, Bott."Ood and in fact to the whole economy of Newfoundland. This restriction is bein~ imposed by Mexico as a retaliatory measure to the Canadian Government's policy .~ •• MR.

S}!ALLWOOD: To a Point of Order, the hon. ventle~.an is only movin?, a motion and is he in order until it is settled by.the House whether we will go ahead with this debate?

February 26th., 197') Tape no. 99 Page 2 !.~_C_9_L,!,Jl/_S_:___ Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is not much sense in introducing somethinr., if we do not explain it. This restriction is .being imposea by Mexico as a retaliatory m<?asure to the Canadian Government's policy of introducing a surcharge on the import of ~exican textiles MR-~!~ fP.9D: __ This is argument now. MR-~-~!'J::AFJ::.~. t-:'hat th;: hon. eentlelT'.an is doing now, he is moving his motion. The only info~mation we require from him now is as to what the subject is and why it is urgent to debate it at this particular time. I thinic he has made that clear.

MR~- CO_L.!,,_!J1~: Mr. Speaker, it is certainly urgent to debate it at this particular time because unless something is done to recover this market in Mexico, then we could find the Price Newfoundland Mills closed. To finish the few words that I ~as going to say, it is another case where the Federal Government by imposing restrictions ••• ~----~I'f.Al<:E_!l_: The hon. menber is now =kinr, his motion. All he is seeking now iB leave to make the motion. The qu:?stion that has to be decided by the Chair ri~ht now is ~1hether this is a matter, the debate ot which is urgent at this particular time.

I will just state this first before I ask any other members to express their opinion. Because of the fact that we are now in the Address in Reply or what is corunonly kn~wn as the Sp~ech from the Throne, there is an opportunity to have the matter brouiht up and debated to some extent even not.r durinp: this particular sittin~ this afternoon. I knew that the matter is serious. The remedy for it is urgent, but I do not think the urgencv of the dehate is necessary as of now.

If I wanted to be ruided by the House, if twelve persons or more want to give the hon. member leave to present this motion at this particular time, they fflay do so. !'1!:_~!:,S_:_ I appreciate what your Honour has said about the Throne Speech and it does make sense your Honour except that the hon. ientle.man who is most concerned in whose district it takes place has already spoken in the Throne Speecl and therefore, would have no opportunity to speak to it.

February 26th., 1970 Tape no. 99 Pap.e 3 ..!:~~KER.:.... The urgency is for the House to debate this particular subject now. I want all hon. menhers to understand that. '!'he urp.:ency of the situation, the seriousness of the situation is important, of course, but the thing , we have to consider is the urf-ency of debating it right here this afternoon and put aside all other other business pertaining to the country or to the House. If twelve members wish to grant leave to the hon. me~~er, then that will make the decision for the Chair. Then the leave cannot be given. NR, Wtnt~iq: Hr.

Speaker, I was expecting your Honour to call further Answers to Questions. Hay I by leave give some answers which I had prepared to give today., ,. }!R. SPEAKER:_ If the House f.ives its consent to refer to Answers to Questions, I have no objection, otherwise they can \lait until tomorrow. MR_._ Cf:cLL~!~~ One never knows, Mr. Speaker, there might well be. Question no. 86: Mr. Crosbie. !!as Hooker Chemicals (Nanaino) Limited or any company associated therewith found any deposits of sodium or potassiums, or elemental sulphur in the area granted: I should say, Hr. Speaker, that the area has not been ~ranted.

It is under concession agreement and the answer to the first

part is. yes. · The answer to the second oart - what are the prospects with reference to the minin~ development of such deposits? The ans.rer is that Booker Chemicals hnve not yet indicated their intention in that regard. Ouestion no. 94: M,. Crosbie. The first part of the question, actually it is in o,,o sections, x~. Sneaker, and a~ain I have to say that I interpret in the first line, where tha hon. r-entlewan asks ho.r many breedin~ ho?,s were provided?

None were provided lint there were anir.,als sold in ti' •~ way of normal commercial transaction and in that rePard the answer ;_s, 157, 14 7 being sows; 20 being .boars; ,.190 being weanling hreeders. vetj interesting. The second part of the first part, !1r. Sneaker. To what farmers and in what numbers to each farmer were these provided~ The answer, Mr. Speaker, in the first instance is eleven or I should say in the second instance eleven.· What farmers? I think. Hr. Speaker, that since this is in the .=irea of normal

February 26th., 1970 Tape no. 99, Pa~e 4 commercial transaction, it is unusual and I think perhaps improper to publish the names of persons who simply bourht these animals. In the second part, l-fr. SpP.aker, were any farmers who applied for breedinp, hogs durin~ the year unable to obtain such breeding ho~s? The answer is no. The rest of that

section does not arise. Question no. 95: }fr. Abbott. It is in ei~ht parts. The answers to parts l, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 is that aircraft records are not kept in this form. The information as requested, theref~re, requires the infornation to be especially compiled, ~r. Speaker and this uill take time. I hope to be able to provide it later in the session. The answer to

part 7 is no. The answer to

part 8 is no. Question no. 80 : ~!r. Hickman. To ask the hon. the Minister to lay on the llouse the information indicatinp, which of the recommendations of be the Royal Commission and the St. Lam::ence ~!ines are to put into effect. I think I have to say, Sir, that the terms of reference of the commission clearly indicate that principally it should approach its in(!uiry from the J"Oint of . view of the health of persons employed in the l!l.ines and my collearue the hon.

Minister of Health already this day has p;iven the House a ministerial statement on that subject which I think cover$ the substance of the hon. members question. !;R.....!-_!l~_g_E_S_S...:__ Mr. Speaker, if I may address a question to the hon. the Hinister of Economic Development'? In looking at the ••• MR. SMALLWOOD: __ Mr. Speaker to a Point of Order. I think the hon. rentleman has no riBht to ask oral questions of which no notice has been !!iven except at calling Orders of the Day.

Your Honour, I think, is about to call Orders of the Day and if the question then is one of the type that may be called under the rules at Orders of the Day, I will be r:lad to ans.,rer it.

MR. SPEAKER: On Orders of the Day of course an opportunity will be p.iven to ask oral questions, yes. MR. JOHN C. CROStIE: Mr. Speaker, before proceeding to Orderslof the Day, I would like to move a motion for the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussion a definite matter of urgent public importance. And that matter, Mr.

Speaker, is a matter of an incident happening yesterday, and today in Green Bay, Notre Dame Bay where representatives of the Government of Canada are forbidding inshore fishermen from those bays and adjacent areas to continue taking old"aeal~, which are now taking from the water until the opening of the season for sealing vessels on the front, which is March 22nd. If, Mr.

Speaker, immediate re~ommendations are not made for the Federal Government to cease that, there will be a loss of income to these inshore fishermen in that area, up fron $100 thousand to $300 thousand, because the old seals, bed lamers, and harps which they take from the fishing boats in open water,and they are shot, they are:..not white coats, they have to be shot by these fishermen. If that £Cal fishery starts at the beginning of February and by }larch 22nd. it will be over, those old seals will be gone. And at the present time, Mr.

Speaker, representatives of the Federal Department of{·'Fisheries are in those areas stopping the fishermen concerned, Little Bay Islands, Nipper's Harbour, Twillingate, from taking these seals. So, I, therefore have a motion ~!:::. Sp:cakc::::- .:hich I would like to present to Your Honour, for this to be discussed because it is of urgent importance to the inshore fishermen.

MR, SPEAKER: The same remarks that! made last time are applicable to this situation where we have opportunity of bringing up these things in a debate which is now before the !louse, plus the fact that the urgency of debating it immediately,! fail to see why we have to stop all the business of the House to discuss this one particular item dealing with an activity in one

section of the country, but at the same time realizing that it is important, it is an important item. But, the urgency of debating it now, I do not think it exists, but if twelve members rise leave will be granted. MR. J.C. CROSBIE Nr. Speaker, on your point of order, MR. SMALLWOOD: It is a rulinp;, not a point of order. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, every time there is a problem in semantics here, do we have the hon. the Premier speaking on the point.

With reference to your df\::ision, I would like to point out that I consider it still to be a matter of ur~ency, your ruling, but there is no remedy unless this matter is debated now, we do not know who is going to be speaking on the Address and Reply this afternoon, whether it is anybody who see the importance of this matter, there are being hundreds of fishcmen being effected now.

MR, SPEAKER: As I already pointed out, the ruling is that I am not depriving the House of the opportunity of debatin g this subject right now. I say, I will leave it to the members of the House, and if twelve or more rise the leave is granted to the hon. members. !-IR. CROSBIE: Can we rise now? MR. SPEAKER: I have asked the House to indicate to . me , if twelve members rise leave will be granted. Leave is therefore not given - It is denied. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CLYDE WELLS: On Orders of the Day, Hr.

Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the minister without portfolio, the member for Labrador ~outh - would he advise the House how many minutes, if not seconds he has spent in his office up stairs iu the last four days when the House is not in session? ORDERS OF THE DAY The Address and Reply, we adjourn the debate. MR. ANTHONY J. ?-iu'RPHY: It seems so long ago_since I spoke I am just wondering if we are still on the amendment? MR. SPEAKER: We are still on the amendc:ent. MR.

HURPHY: I did have five minutes on I think it was on Tuesday Night, and at that time I put forward again the case of afternoon and night sessions, but I will get off that now, and go on with the reason why I feel, where this Government should be voted out of power. That seems very stroag, because it is just an non-confidence motion. I think, Nr.

Speaker, most of the previous speakers have stressed the fact of more or less contempt for the Opposition, arrogant · :!.n their decisions, and general disregard for the feelines expressed by the members on this side, and through the members on this side to the thousands . of people they represent. I think the day, !fr. Speaker, we had a very good example of that, where an hon. member in his capacity representing the great district of Burin put a question on the Order Paper, 11nd the ans1,1er was,no change.

Now I am sure, very sure that the people of Grand Bank, St, Lawrence and the other communities in his district are very, very much enlightened as to what assistance, financial or otherwise, has been given to the Mortier Bay Development Committee?

I am sure that these questions are asked, we know the answers perhaps, a lot of the answers, but a~ain I must emphasis that we, all members of the House, not only the ten on this side, but the ~-hole 41 sittinj!; in this House, are sent here not by the Premier of the Province, not by the Leader of the Opposition, not by the Leader of the Independent Liberals, but by the rank and loyal voters of r/,;.

Newfoundland. So in my honest opinion, I think it is an insult, an absolute insult to the people of the Province, who are the ones that we represent. I recall, Hr. Speaker, I have been in this House seven years, and the members on this side \olhen they speak, it is like 2 voice crying in the wilderness as far as getting infomation from the other side is concerned.

I will go back about four years, and I do not know exactly if it was 1964 or 1965, the member for Trinity North is not in his place today, was the then Minister of Fisheries, and it is very interesting the matter brought up the hon. member for St , John's West with reference to the seals at this time. I state that if action had to be taken in 1964, by t~e Minister of Fishe=ias and the Government at that time, that ~ewfoundland would still have a seal fishery and employment for hundreds of our workers who make a living from this, or a part of a living through this.

Five or six days in a row, I stood in my place here Mr, Speaker, and I addresses an question on Orders of the Day to the hon. Minister of Fisheries at that time, the member for Trinity North. AN HON, HEH.BER: Inaudible. MR. ~mRPHY: Not a word - this was in reference to statements made by a Hr. Davis, the great new humanitrian in New Brunswick.

Not a \o. 0 ord did I receive on about the sixth or seventh, I do not know I cannot count the~ now, the hon. member stood in his place to answer me, and from the bench here says, sit down Max, sit down ~x, Now, if this is the type of Ninister we have looking after our department, or looking after any phase of Government, how do the people of this Province expect - who do ,they expect to fight for their rights? I think , at that time, if the Minister of Fisheries together 'l.'ith the Government had raised an enough of a howl, Mr.

Davis could go hack to his pet farm or whatever else he had without depriving the people of this Province, a great number of people of a good means of earning a few dollars in the off season.

And I say, again, and I will repeat, the same thing would have happened if any action had been taken on the urging of the Opposition, on the passenger ~ervice across this Province, without giving lip service to it, if an determined effort had been made by the Government on the other side, I say, that the Federal Government, or the Transportation Cot:m1ision would have recognized that the people of this Province particularly the hundreds of railway people had someone looking after their rights.

The Opposition ca~not do it, we can only raise these points, and I think it is a pure outrir,ht disregard, because if Opposition raises anything, because they r;,.:lsed a question, because they put forward a s11ggestion, wipe it out, no l!'atter who assents.

On the first day, of the Opening of the House here, on }!ortday actually, on the Order Paper there was a question addressed with reference to the appointment of a certain member of this House as Parli.a:nentary Assistant, we were not worried about getting after any individual, ?-Ir. Speaker, we just wanted to get the records straight in this House. On the other side of the House today, I doubt if there is twenty percent of the thirty odd reernbers that have not some other form of remurneration besides a sessional pay, I maybe a little out. me, we have eighteen Cabinet Ministers - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. }UJRPHY: How many? AN HON. MEMBER: Ten percent . They tell MR. MURPh'Y: Ten percent, I stand to be corrected. We have on that side of the House, and this is very interesting today, when I saw this and I am speaking now of the complete disregard of the Liberal Government, not only now, but over the years of doing what ~hey decide without just regards for the rights of other people. Let us look at this famous ~ower Comnission here. We have here a former member who did not run the last election, he was appointed to the Power Cotro:iission.

We have an hon. member who sits in this House, l-mo is a commissioner, we have another cabinet minister, who resigned, and I will say resi~ned - as far as I understand he never resigned, he might have been asked to resign or forced to resign, but not through his own volition. lie is also on it, and I understand another member of the House whose picture is not here, and I fail to see the picture of my hon. friend from Labrador West. I think that is rank discrimination, Re should have had his picture in this.

But in this there are four either active members of this House or retired members who are stowed away not at the expense of the Liberal Party, but at the expense of the people of this Province. A few short months ago, I raised a question about a young man, a very, very, personal friend of mind, and as I say 1t is not the individual I am getting at, it is the practice of this Govetnl!lent of using the people's money to reward their faithful followers. The Premier gave a dramatic speech, no doubt about it was tremendous.

I enjoy it, every time I hear it, about jobs, and the great emotion, and I think the Preimer does get emotionally right away when this thing comes up, But when he is talking about j ohs, i-.'hen there is other jobs in the Civil Service, for heaven sake give eYerybody a chance to get a job in the Civil Service. I could have tried last Sl.l!!lr.ier in a group that I am intere!'lted in. Three ;'fi/,

or four thousand youn8 people , 3nd I am not braggin~, but I have r.iven forty y~rs of my life to the Yout h ~!ovement of this Province. We had five different: , l eagues consi sting of 400 or 500 young people. I go down statts to the Physical Fitness Department for some help. 1n1at is the ~rant? TIJo thousand dollars to ~ravel 200 or 300 kids all over this - $2,000. If I had that $7200 that is being paid to t his young gentle man into a job that in my opinion t here is no need for, I coold have looked aft~r 5,000 young people in this Province . This is \.hat breaks r:y heart . AN UON . HE~IBER.: Would the hon. ·gentleman permit a questio n? Are

,-. . February 26, 1970 Tape 101 Page 1 GC fhe Opposition aware that on the average in the time that that young man had been in that job which was not created for him. Is the hon. the Leader of .. Opposition aware that as many as forty enquiries a day from the public, which previously could not be handled - there was no official to handle them - are being received in that Departl!lent? And that they are being well looked after.- that the people are being helped and being satisfied as a result of ~be creation of this post which was created many months age. Does he know that? MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I have taken the information of the hon. member and I thank him for it. We have reached the stage in the Civil Service of this Province where men who have given fifteen, twenty, twenty-five years are getting considerablr less than $7000.00 a year, could not meet a person at the counter and say, "What are you looking for?" God help us! What a state the Civil Service must be in when ve have to get the Liberal organizers. I do not know if the Liberal association gives special courses. That is the first step of becoming a top-rate Civil Servant - is to join the Liberal Party. Perhaps it is.

I do not know, but when the hon. the minister stands up and says to me that forty people are being served UO'lo7 that could never be··served 'before. I do not think he expects us to S'lo7allow that, Come on~ Come on! God help us! I am fifty-six. I do not know what is going on in the world. This Government - if we had ten percent of the money that this Government has squandered over the past twenty years, a lot of people in this Province would be working. That is what they would, be working! Some of the people who are not devoted Liberals might get a job.

Only yesterday we asked a question - an answer to a question we have a building over here, Fhilip Place? The Power Commission who occupy premises at Fort Pepperell with; not one cent of rate, are paying $140,000.00 a year to a·•building over here and yesterday ve were told - another Department?~ Workmens' Compensation? - paying $73,000.00 a year? - and we have the Board of L!ii_u·o~ C~ntr~t over there. We do not know how much they are paying. '1'17

February 25, 1970 Tape 101 Page 2 GC We have a federal post-office. Who owns the building? "And .rHat guarantee did the Government give these people? That they be paid off in three years fro!ll now? Imagine~ $l40,000.00 a year rent and we with buildings at Fort Pepperell that did not cost the people of this Province, not one red cent, Is that good Government? What would anybody - I would ask any member on the other side - the road the hon. member referred to the other day, in Hermitage - could you use $140,000.00 for your people down there? SOME HON. MEMBER: Three times. MR. MURPHY: Three times. Right?

Well, all right in three years we ~ould do your bit of road in Hermitage, but you, the hon. the member, and everybody else will vote that they have the utmost confidence in this Government. The utmost - and still they say, "Look, I wish I had the money they have squandered on Philip flace". Does this make sense? Bow many in all our districts - how many hundreds of our constituents would we like to see working in jobs, instead of everything being,passed~ over in a huge bundle to favourites of this Government? If Iara telling lies, just $t~? :c. Just stop rne. I a~ not telling lies. This is an.actual fact.

If one were to go back over the twenty years that this Government has been in power, it would ftighten you actually to death. I asked a question in this hon. House last year and I may say here the question was phoned to me to ask, "What happened on the eighth floor of the Confedeaation Building?" What went on there:- some operation. We put the question on the order bill. There -were three contractors. Three outstanding in their devotion to the hon. Premier to keep him in p01.er - outstanding to the Liberal party to keep him in power. $720,000.00 operation - and they tell me they do not call tenders on &mall jobs.

God help us! How big can you get! How big can you get! No wonder I had to mention and compare it to the t,'"..,rl(rfeport. The same things apply. The hon. Minister of Welfare took the - exception to my remarks.- I ui· not trying to destroy Newfoundland. God help us, no! I am trying to restore Newfoundland to a place in the sun, and if people in Newfoundland . to a decent livelihood and fair play. In 1935 - I have a few notes somewhere, I will find them - out of a

February 26 Tape 101 Page 3 GC population of 280,000 people, we had sixteen percent of our people living on Social Assistance - whatever itwns called in these days - the dole1 , or the whack or whatever they vanted to call it,- In 1968, the end of March, with all the benefits we had, with the Family Allowance, the Old Age Pension, Workmens' Compensation - out of 510,000 peo?le, eighteen percent will receive in some form of Government assistance. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is as wrong as anything the hon. gentleman ever 3aid. MR. MURPHY: If I am wrong, I will take it back. This researth has been done for me.

I will take it back. SOME HON. }lEXBER: Wrong. Utterly wrong. You know who is wrong - the Opposition, Sir. They are never right. SOME HON. MEMBER: The hon. gentleman should learn the new Mathi. MR. }IDRPHY: Maths, yes. Absolutely. There is a brain for you, now. SOME HO~. MEMBER: Let the hon. minister give the answer. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order! Visitors visit the House as a privilege, but they are not supposed, not permitted, to exercise their views or their opinions or reaction by laughte~ or movement or by applause. They must remain silent when they are in the gallery. MR. MURPHY: Tffank;yon1 Mr.

Speaker. Let me see. \lhere are we? Percentages was it? In 1935 there were 46,900 people on Social Assistance,- 289,588. SOME HON. MEMBER: Row many were eligible1 MR. MURPHY: Compared to the number on assistance in 1935 of 46,900 out of a total population of 289,598, that •ade a percentage of 16,000 of the population. mu:·,·sMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, ,..e would he like the latest figures. MR. MURPHY: I think the Premier has spoken on this particular subject. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, no. I do not want to speak. Would he like tor.have the latest figures? MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, may I continue please?

If there are any ~igures to be given, I will receive them after my speech. MR. SPEAKER: Order, Order. MR. MURPHY: Anybody can get up and criticize me; MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not criticize. I just want to ask him if he would like to ask -- ~,·_: . '

February 26, 1970 Tape 101 Page 4 GC MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. When the Premier speaks, the hon. members should resume their seats and the speaker should r.ot have to raise his voice and tcy and make himself heard over other hon. m~mbers. MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I apoligize if I did get a little bit worked up. I have been used to the old competition, you know, when someone is after you, go back, like that - Do we want to repeat these? MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. gentleman like to have the latest official figures as of January this year. MR. MURPHY: Yes, I would love to have them.

I would like to have mine. These are March 1968. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, but this is now.- January - last month. MR. MURPHr: -I would love to have them. Would you pass them over se that-­ MR. SMALLWOOD: All right. 6825 - MR. SPEAKER: Order. -- for the hon. the Premier to interrupt the hon. the member's speech -- MR. SMALLWOOD: I am not interrupting the speaker. I asked .liit1c1 - MR. SPEAKER: But, the hon. the Leader uf the Opposition indicated that he did not wish the hon. the Premier to eead the information to him. MR. MURPHY: Now, I mean, I will get the figures from the Department of Welfare report.

I know the hon. minister is very co-operative and I will say this for him that any fig~res we want we can always get them. I mean, I am not objecting to these facts. I am just trying, Mr. Speaker, with all the hundreds and hundreds Qnd hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars have flowed into this Province since 1949 and what we hear about the schools and the roads and the this and the that and the other things.

Here is where we saand according to my figures as at the end of March 1968 as compared to 1935 and anybody lived during 1935, 33,34 - we know this was really a tough time to live in for a lot of people and I have to repeat it again now, because . in·case we have not got the figures dO'Wtl. In 1935 we had a population in this Province of 289,588 persons. The total on assistance - the number receiving social assistance at that time - was 46,900 were on assistance out of 289,000. In 1968 of 87,059 out of a population of 500,000 - sixteen percent in 1935 and seventeen percent in 1968. That is the percentage.

February 26, 1970 Tape 101 Page 5 GC And that is not withstanding, with all the benefits that flowed in here, since Confederation. Now, remember you have Unemploy~ent Insurance, you have got Old Age Pension, you have got the Family Allo~ance and you have got many other forms of federal Social Assistar.ce. SOME HO~. MEXBER: Unemployn ent Insurance? MR. MURPHY: Unemployment Insuraoee, yes. So, it just goes to show what actually has been done by this Government the past t~enty years. Yes, Mr. Minister. MR.

NEARY: Is the hon. member not aw~re that well over fifty percent of the total he just gave is 87,059.- is well over fifty pp~cent of these people - are considered to be unemployaBle, unfit for work, widows, orphans, and so on, the blind the deaf. Is the hon. gentleman aware of that? MR. MURPHY: Oh yes, I run, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of that, but that, you knw, I think in proportion and I do not think that the minister is insinuating that since 1949 our people have become more lax, have become disabled and unable to work.

I feel that in 1935 perhaps the ratio might have been higher, due to various forms of not getting the right diet. M?. ROBERTS: Yes, that is a fact. MR MURl'HY: So it does not have that effect. It compounds the offence, I think, here at this time. But, Mr. Speaker, these are some of the reasons why I am sitting on tr.is slde of the House. N= I am not presumptious enough to say I could be sitting on that side, but 1 had the chance to run for election and be elected to that side.

Now inside me, it is my makeup, I guess, I feel and I felt in 1956, when I was asked to run by certain ministers on that side, that at that time then this Goverr..ment was not the type of government that this little Province required to get it back to a place where we could stand as proud, if you like, responsible citizens of the great Dominion of Canada.

We started off, and I have often said this in the House, during the Confederation battles when I listened to the Premier and I said to myself - here is the man, this is what Newfoundland needs to bring us even, if you like, with the rest of Canada - although I did not know exactly what Canada was like at that time. Because anybody who is in any type of business knows that Canada, as far as Newfoundland is concerned, you hardly considered Canada as a market for our products - and I think any business man here will know that. We got five per cent - you know.

But we had hoped that our standard of living would be raised, we had hoped l.f //

/ February 26, 1970 Tape 101 Page 6 cc that with this honest to God , hard-fighting Ne;,,foundlander 1.•e ~ere going places . Ar.d I think this was "in the Premi -er's mind in 1949 . But I think it is like the Gos pel, where the s o~~r went out to sow his seed, some fell on rocky ground and did not grow at all, some fell on other ground and started to grow bu~ was choked. I think that is what hap?cned to this little Province . l~e ~ere all dedicated to make , evfoundland 11 great place but t h.en ,:e got into the big business deals where $100 meant r.othing •· , . . ... •.-. 4

February 26, 1970 Tap!! 102 Pagel dollars meant nothing. You know, we were lighting our cigarettes with one hundred dollar bills - in the millions and the millions and the millions, thq is all we could hear. We were thinking of culture centres - culture centres not rer.reation fields, not providing something for the fishermen. "Burn your boats'." This was it. "Come ashore!" Mr. Speaker, for seven years, I said, I have sat in this House.

I have sat here and I have sat here, I have been abused, I have been called intellectually bankrupt because we dared, we dared to disagree with certain policies that this Government were putting into force. Here we have today, on this side of the rlcuse, perhaps four of the most brilliant, outstanding Cabinet ministers that this Government has had since 1949. You may smile - all right, it is nice to abuse these gentlemen now. Hy hon. friend from St John's West, you know he did not get the leadership, so to heck with you!

Hy friend here from Fortune, who I think is a very honest rnan - I criticized these gentlemen;now 1 / criticized them as much as I criticized anybody over there, but I say no .. - "I admire you gentlemen!" And I am not excluding the other tvo hon. gentlemen who are on this side of the House. h.'1d I only bore that within the near future they w"ill con:.binc "t.ith the Cc~servative P'1r~y, tre Official Opposition in this House. who for twenty years have been abused, laughed at, ridiculed. Us take over the Government? Us?

I think you gentlemen can understand now, to a great extent. just what we had to contend with in this House of Assembly, I thiP.k they realize - yoll can come up with the most constructive thing in this wc,rld and the vote will be - I heard the hon. the Premier, on his favourite program this raorning, "And the;• are going to bring in an unconfidence motion - how silly! i!ow utterly silly and stupid!

Ten of them to beat thirty of us:" Heavens Almighty, does every member in this House come in with his mind firmly fixed - "I am going to vote, no matter what the boys on the other side" - Do not tell me that that is the state that I would have to come to if I wanted to be known as a member of government MR E.M.

R03ERTS: The hon. gentleman vote<l with the ~ovcrnment on many occasions MR }fiJRPHY: Is it true 1 voted with the Government and lauded the Govern~ent because the confidence raotions a1e the motions that ar~ made on this side because we feel that we have no confidence in the Goven1mcnt, because they are not doing what we feel - . ..

. C. February 26, 1970 Tape 102 Page 2 MR ROBERTS: Perhaps we have no confidence in the Opposition, MR MURPHY: Well, that is absolutely apparent because if we made a 1110tion today .(and I am almost sure this must sound foolish) "It is raining like the dickens outside, it is blo·..1ing" - it would be twenty-one to one that the sun was shining out there. HR H,V. R EARLE: It is blowing from the other side, raining out of doors. MR HURPIIY: Right! And Thanks be to God! we do get a few minutes <luring the session to blow our horn.

Now, Nr, Speaker, I have tried to give a few examples of why I must support this motion as put forward by the hon. member for Humber East and I am just trying to reconcile in my mind that statement of the Premier's this morning, where he can say that we have thirty - "We have thirty to their ten." We wlll vote against this motion. And I think to myself just what the feeling in all our minds are. We are all human. I think we all believe in certain things. I think we are all open and receptive to ideas as expressed by other people.

If this motion is defeated, and I know if I were on that side this is what I would feel, if someone said to me that I had to vote, I do not think I would- quite honestly. But if every one on the other side of this House votes against thls motion, they are saying, in effect, "we think that bringing the Po-.:er Co=ission into a building" - and I don't know what deal is made with this company - "I think it is a marvelous thing for the Power Commission to leave a building that is costing us nothing," ''Now it is a bit small for them.

They have a tremendous staff - it is small, but I believe and I think it is a wonderful thing that this Government should pay $140,000 in rent to Lundrigans." And I do not know who else is in it. And I would like to say here and I vill be perfectly frank and I would like to ask for this answer at this time - it is the , {'>~ rumor going aro1md that certain members of this Govern~ent are in this building, and I would like to have it denied emphatically so that I could do the same thing. MR.

S}IALLWOOD: I do not know whether just to ignore that, "There are rumors going around" - will the Cabinet deny it, will the members of the Government

deny it? Now what should HR. H!C:ZEY: Xr. Speaker, is this a question? MR. SMALLWOOD: Just sit down MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, out of order, out of order MR. SMALLWOOD: Sit down, sit do1-m MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, out of order, I am not sitting down - I go by i.hat the speaker says - you sit down for a change. I have a Point of Order Mr. Speaker MR. SXALLWOOD: I am on a Point of C'rder - there can be only one at a time. }fR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the Premier Gid not rise on a Point of Order I am not deaf and I did not hear it - this is just another game - sit down MR.

SPEAKER (Noel): The hon. the Premier interrupted the Leader of the Opposition - he could only do that on a Point of Order. Now will the hon. the Premier no~ state his Point of Order. ~m. SHAT.LIWOD: :lr. Speaker, will the hon. gentleman not just say there is a rumor - will he make a charge. MR. MURPHY: No, no definitely HR. S}iALLl/00D: No he will not, he will not make a charge so where does that leave us Hr. Speaker?

Is this Parliamentary - is it in accordance with Parliamentary practice, and precedent anci procedure ·_; for a Leader of an ·· Opposition to say there is a rumor - he does not say who says it - he says there is a rumor, he is re,ieating a purely anonymous rumor - it is anonymous as far as this House is concerned. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a long Point of Order tffi. SMALLWOOD: So far as his speech is couccrnecl it is anonymous - we do not know - he says merely there is a rumor, I suggest to your honour that this is highly improper.

In the e:r.treme it is highly improper - he ought either ~take a charge so that we can have it investigated, or not mention it - not talk about anonymous rumors HR. nICKEY: Is this a Point of Order, or is he making a speech tm.. SHAf,LWOOD: Sit down, sit do~m, sit down, ignoramous sit clown HR. HICKEY: I have heard that before, I am not sitting down when the Premier says so MR . SMALL~OOD: 1-!r. Speaker; protect me MR. SPJ::.\KEn: (r-:ocl): Order PlP.asc HR, HICKEY: Is he making a Point of Order, or is he making a speech. Do not tell me to sit down, you do not run this llou~e

HR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please, MR. HICKEY: In t..,enty years here you should know that MR. SPEAKER: The speaker can only listen to one Point of Order at a time HR. HICKEY: That is right, and that is u long drawn out one - get to the point MR. SPEAKER: Will the hon. the Premier please continue MR. SHALLWOOD: Hr. Speaker, I may have to take the necessary Parliamentary steps to be protected against that - we do not have to tolerate that. MR. HICKEY: I do not have to tolerate a lot of thir.gs you do MR.

SMALLWOOD: Very rarely in the history of this House has anyone stood in the House and by inference, by inuendo, by iwplication accuze the Government without accusing them. He is not making a charge - he is merely saying that there is a rumor going around, He does not say who is saying it. Hr. Speaker thi.s is atrocious, this is intolerable and I ask your honour suppose we adjourn the House while your honour goes over the references. I do not think I - I will not .make a motion but this is intolerable really, ~e cannot and tlewill not lie under this.

New perhaps your honour would like to t"ise the House, and maybe call Hr. Speaker back - or your honour confer with Mr. Speaker - look up the references - look up Beauchesne, look up the references and see where we stand when a member of the House says there is a rumor - that some members of the House are criminals MR. HICKEY: I did not say that MR. SNALLWOOD: Yes criminals, oh yes criminals Hr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: Order please MR. S}!ALLWOOD: It is a lie, it is an important matter MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, on the ~oint of Order, I \las just reading in Beauchesne that all members are entitled to say what they please speaking in the house - so long as that they do not impune the honour of other hon. members. Now then to say in a general way that the Government is extravagant and this kind of thing, Ot" that it is rumoured this, rumoured that~ is not taken to· impune the honour of the Government, but to say something vhich indicates that mernbers of the Government are to use a local expression "crooked" that would be out of order. MR. MURPHY: Thank you Hr.

Speaker, and I ,..ill say this - quite likely I did it, quite without malice•to kill any of this thing and I with<lraw it with all my heart I withdraw this remark of ir.:punin;; to any member of the House - any -:- , .--' 1--.,

SOHE l!ON. HHffiERS: Hear, hear MR. MURPHY: But this rumour factory got to be killed somehwere. Rurr.ours have to be killed somewhere. Hr. Speaker, to carry on with this, and I think I have made it clear MR. SKa.LLWOOD: Point of Order. This does not settle the matter your honour - it will be reported all over the radio and television tonight, and news-papers ton:r,1orrow, and all across Cana:la that the Leader of the Opposition announced to the House in a speech that there is a rumour that members of the Government are shareholders of a company that owns a building in which the Government are tenants.

Now that is the rumour, Your honour has merely said that no member may impune the honour of other members of the House, that is all your honour has said - that does not g,ot over the fact that the: Leader of the Opposition has made this statement. New I ask your honour ..-hat can the Government do - will the Leader of the Opposition make an ac::usation? If someone will make the accusation we can set up a select conmittee at once. I would move it - to call witnesses, examine books, examine accounts, bank accounts, everything concerning the building in question. But how can I do it when there is no charge?

If the hon. gentleman will ma!ce a charge - not just say there is a rumour. That is the quintessence of :-1ccarthyism - the very quiutess~ace of it - it is the essence and the quintessence of ~lcCarthyism. Now your honour what can the Governraent do to protect itself against this foul, infamous and false rumour? Hhat can Ye do? MR. SPEAKER: As I see it - it is not that I know of anything dishonourable for a meraber of the House or a member of the Government to have shares in a company that is dealing with the Government.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has s&id that oembers of the House and members of the Governroent have shares in a company that is doing business with the Government. That is not to my mincl u.,pleasant. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I was on the general state of our Province. The hon Premier referred, and I think we are all a·,;are of the state.'.lent of }Ir. Jay Parker

MR. MURPHY: Hon. the Premier referred and I think "We all are aware of the statement of Mr. Jay Parker with reference to Newfoundland's over-population and the lack of the necessary jobs to provide employment - in other "Words "We just cannot support them economically. He has said that perhaps 180,000 Newfoundlanders should be moved out. I disagree wholeheartedly "With it, The Premier yesterday said the answer to it is provide jobs - I think everybody agrees "With that.

But in my opinion, and in the opinion of a great many other people, the answer to it - the "Whole question :l.s - if the hon. gentleman "Wants to have a meeting Sir, it is very difficult for me to try and concentrate on a few thoughts. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. MURPHY: You have a caucus room in there, the same as the hon. gentleman for St. John's West had to prove his innocence last year eh? What "Was "Wrong with that? Can only one person insinuate or anything else in this House? MR, CALLAHAN: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman now asks the Rouse Mr.

Speaker, whether it is not all right to insinuate . I suggest Mr. Speaker, that will happen - I am making the point of order. My point of order is that the integrity of hon. members on this side has been impuned, and be that it will further impuned when the press begin to repeat the suggestion made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition as a suggestion. MR, SPEAKER (NOEL): The Speaker gave his decision on that, and the Hon. Minister is out of order. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I will continue and I hope I "Will be able to continue until I finish without any interruotions bv any experts or anything else - There is no MacCarthyism in me , If the Premier's reputation is as clean as mine is for being hon. he is an hon. man, an hon. man. Do not impute MacCarthyism to me or anything else, I will not take it. Mr, Speaker, I think the great majority of people in this Province know what the ans"Wer to curing a lot of our problems are, and it is not throµgh Come-by-Chance or anything else - these are a part of it.

But I think the general feeling throughout this Province today is that this Government that has been in for t"Wenty years, wasting, squandering our money on foolish things that are not at all contributing to the welfare of this Province. It is time for them to step out. It is time for them to step out. And I believe that the people

February 26. 1970 Tape €103 Page 2 of this Province feel this •-:ay. And anybody who has travelled to this Province in recent months I think know the feeling of the people. You can stay in po~er by weight in numbers - if you have thirty to ':en there is no trou~le to stay in power. B11t I say this nov, and I ask the hon:. members of this House, everyone of them, and I will not bring up a matter of conscience again because I was criticized for it - to say to yourselves - the people I represent, two, three, five, ten, fifteen thousand - how do they feel about this?

Here is a House of Assembly and as I said earlier and got off it because I was interrupted - a question we put on the Order Paper about a certain appointment in this House. And I am not trying to poke my finger at any individ­ uals - just a system that prevails in this House. i..'e have a Parliamentary Assistant Mr. sveaker. $6,500 a year - the Premier could not understand the question eh? Whether it was full time or part time. He told us it was just when the House was in session. $6,500 a year - the most impor.tant outside of a Cabinet post in this House Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker himself gets $5,500 a year.

Here we have the Premier's Parliamentary assistant. I knew he must have very onerous duties. We have Ministers without portfolio. We have members of the Power Co=ission. Vho over there is not getting something else? Mr. Speaker, these are only some of th~ things that I am trying to prove these few thousands of dollars, how we could use them to other advantages. And I quoted one ic.stance that is very dear to my heart - and that is recreation for our younger people. For growing up, they have no playing areas.

I challenge anybody that travels through this Province for me - and where are they growing up - and I have said this a thousand times before, and I will say it a thousand times again. In the .1ukebox joints, and then into their own houses - it would frighten you to death to see our young people, sixteen seventeen, eighteen - I have read it in the papers - being arrested for being drunk in charge cf a car. What do we do with them? Now we have the drugs, tha~ is the next thing. God forbid! Unless this Government wakes up and realizes that fifty percent of our population is under the age of twenty-one.

A few years time we are go_ing to have a lot of problems on our hands, unless we start to look after it. These are things we should be spending our money on - instead of foolish lavish Elizabeth Towers, Arts and Culture Centers. They, -are beautiful, beautiful for one point one percent of the people of this Province. I say

February 26, 1970 Tape /!103 Page 3 · it is more practical to spend it on playing facilities for the kids, and I would like to put it before the public and see what they say about it. Not in every case no. Sure you have thousands of people, and I have thousands and thousands and thousands of young people - dnd any member of this House can tell me what playing facilities they have in their area. I travelled seventy-five perce~t of the Province for three weeks last year on this" one thing. Do not l•et us try to gild the lily. I c:m not against culture as such.

People want to go to plays and everything else, let them go to them. But if I have young people, fifty or sixty or seventy or eighty or a hundred in my district with no place to kick a football or thro,;.r a ball - I say forget the Arts and Culture Center. Keep the children occupied in recreatio~ Questions in this House? It reminded last year ,;.re asked about the Arts and Culture Centers. What were the costs? What were they costing? Nothing. In the Estimates we were asked to vote $2,000,000 to Lundrigans for a progress payment - and still we get these off-hand answers.

These are things - all right we out-number the Opposition three to one, but for ,,ad's sake, recember you are representing the people of the Province. You are not representing the Liberal Party. You represent people the same as ,;.re do, Men, women and children are depending on you people over there, to spend their money to the best advantage for this Province. Row many ir.ill:!.ons oi dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars to be wasted - you could pave roads:that today o:t,::vpainful to drive over them. No one wants dirt roads, we know that.

Everybody is demanding paved roads, We finished the drive in 1965 eh? We erected a great monument to Mr. Pearson just outside of Grand Falls. How much did we spend on the Trans Canada Highway since 1965? Why? We had the road to Norris Arm eh? Fifteen miles to the cut-off. Would not the hon. member for White Bay South like to finish the rest of the road to Baie Verte with this money? It was available for that road. Not even the ten percent we spent? I would not care if got a hundred yards. Let us benefit someone. Let us benefit someone.

Wait until total bill comes in for all chis up-grading of the Trans-Canad But why in 1965 - Yes, Mr. Speaker, these are some of the reasons why I feel that it is time to come to grips with our problem in this Province. A very serious ...

February 26, 1970 Tape /1103 Paise 4 problem. We are not against Come-by-Chance, we suoported the principle of the Bill or anything else, we supported these things that~!s-'good for our people. But for heaven's sake, do not let us try to carry the peoTlle along with dreams of fifteen to seventeen thou s and j abs this year. How many times have we heard it? Since 1950 - 51 - 52 - great announcements. Just one last item Mr. Speaker, before I sit down. And that is - and it has been brought up today with reference to questions.

Where the Premier is on every morning on V.O.C.M. at ten fifteen, representing the Province , not the Liberal Party - the Premier, conversation with the Premier. And I would like to go on record Mr. Speaker, with reference to this House of i!,.ssembly and the reputation that we hope this House holds. And that is some of the drivel, this venom if you like, that is thro-;.;n out over that pro gram every morning. The other morning I was listening cominis in in my car, and the hon, member for Humber East narne was mentioned.

Well such a tirade of abuse - people listening would think he had .1ust got out for a half day from the Mental Asylum. He should be psy choanalyzed. Re was nuts, he was crazv, he was ignorant. He knew nothing. A lawyer, a distinr,uished lawyer who comes here in this House - sent here by the people of Humber East - God help us Almighty, what do you do about it? Are we going to put up with this? Now Mr. Speaker, in conclusion I would like to go on record as supporting this motion, and to ask members of this hon. Rouse to support this motion, and let us get a bit of responsibility back into Responsible Government.

Thank you very much. RON. STEPHEN h'"EARY (Minister without Portfolio): Mr. siseaker, I would like to have a word on the amendment. I am sure ~r. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman who just took his seat did not intend to mislead the House in the figures that he quoted on able-bodied relief in 1935 as compared to 1968 - that he called the wack that we now know as short-term social assistance, or assistance available to people who are employable, as to those who are not employable. In 1935 he said that 46,900 peoole received able-bodied relief, or the wack. Today Mr.

Speaker, as of the end of January 1970, 42,707 people were in the category that my hon. friend mentioned. 42,707 - and we now have douole the population Mr. Speaker, so we have less people receiving able-bodied relief, or what the hon. gentleman referred to as wack today, as we did in 1935. -------......... 9(/ .... , ... ·

February 26. 1970 Tane t-103 'PaJ?,e 5 The other forms of assistance 1,:ere not available i:i 1915. Assistance to wido-..,s and orphans - This is exactly the point Mr . S11e·aker • the hon. i;tentleman' s figure was misleading, and that is why I want ed to set the reco~d strai ~ht . And actually it amounts to jus t a little over eight pe-rcent of the popt:lation of the Province on able-bodi ed , or what t he hon . gentleman ref er red to as vack. We have a more sophisticated na~e for it - we call it short-tet'lll social assistance. But actually it is eight pe rcent of the population . t//. -•~.,L

.. February 26th., 1970 Tape no, 104 Pape l tffi. EARLE:_ At thc1t time, if his memory ,-.oes back to the records, -was it not the case that all cases of able-bodied and sick relief as they called it in those days blocked topether-? In other IJ,,rds this firure .:hich the hon. Leader of the Opposition has piven includes all types of relief because that is how it was done in those days and he is accurately comnarine. it with the total today, I believe. AN RON._ }'E~'BER: _ l·rnat is the difference? !~~~A~Y_:___ Yes, Hr.

Speaker, this is what 1~ns misleadin!! ah out the hon. members - and I am sure he c!id not do it deliberatelv. SO'!E POtl. '·'D!F\r.i::s: It is correct. ---· ····--·-·--·----- HR. NEARY: It is not correct. 'fr.ere was 10 assistance available .at that --·- - -. - - - -. - time for widows, orphans anc.l deaf children, blind children and this sort of thinp.. TI1ere was another statel".ent, ~1r.

Speaker, that the hon. fentler1an made on openinf' day that prohably needs to be clarified. 1~hen he t:i.lkcd about the amount of n:oney that is now bein:1. spent on short-term social assistance , which is able-bodied relief or wack or what the pentleman "-'ants to call it. But what he failec! to mention, '.'r. Speaker •• ,as that tliE're h.nve been substantial increases in the rates and especially 1-!ith thl? comin'! into effect of the Canada Assistance Plan. This really is the reason for the substantial increases in the pr;,:mr,t that is now ..•• The hon.

Premic.: re!T'inds me that in 1933 that over 100.000 Newfoundlanders were on "'hat the hon. ~entleman called wack or dole and that vas over. I think, fiftv percent. It was nearly forty percent of the population at the rate of sir. cents a day so I am sure th:i.t the hon. c,entler."an did not -wish to mislead the House on these fip;ures. Just to repeat '!o"hat I already said, !·[r. Speaker, today eij!ht percent or a little more than eipJ1t percen • Sir. sliphtly more than eip;ht percent of the population are receiving social assistance or what is col!'.rconly known as able-bodied rel·:ef. No-w, Hr.

Speaker, the hon. )!entlel!'an also congratulated our former colleagues who moved over to the other side of the House and he invited hie to come into the O!)position r:i.nks. Now, !-'r. Sr.,E?atcr thev do not have very far to IIX>ve. They are only about two feet apart, but I would like to •.• ' ! / .. , . "" > /

T . , r NR. S!-1.ALLWOOD; nut the other r,;ay, they are not a part at all. HR. KF.AI-:Y.: l.'hat I ~,as ~oinf' to sav, l·!r. Speaker, was that re ,11:, t1-,c',I ~ere right-wing Liberals, and I think that a right-win~ Liberal is probably a left-win!? P. c, and !·'.r. Spe;a,kct.", althou:c'h the hon, gentleman may have felt that they took a big step , I do not think it will be considered as a giant step for mankind. Now, Mr. Speaker, !".ay I point out to the hon. House that we are now approaching the end of our fourth day of this sittinl:! and to date, Hr.

Speaker, nothin~ !;;.sheen accom;:,lished to meet any of the needs and the wants of the people at lar?,e and the taxpayers in particular in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, may I SUt"t>est to those who are obstructing progress examine thei.r consciences. l Ir, Speaker. do thev nC'lt owe the oeoole who have elected them to enact legislation to iD1)'rove thinr ,s in this Province some obli gation to !!et on with the business of this !louse? Pr. Speaker, nay I appeal to gencleman air.on~ those seated at the Sp!!akcr's ri.r.ht f0r a return to productive constructive work in this Jiousc? Unless, Yr.

Speaker. the House itself der,encrate cor.ioletely into a laughing sLo:k arr.oQ~ tl:e citizens of this Province who must be seething inwardly in the last four days of the unforcunat:e was tint>: of time of the ta,,,"Payers money. MR. ~•ALOE'-V: !-Ir.

Speaker, after the hi?:h velocity of the eY.change<; across the floor of this llouse in the p;ist several days, I would like to assure all hon. 11:er.,hers that J J,uve no arranrEd it v~ th your lion:)Ur :hat a low key speaker come on at this ti.n:!. but fo::- .:111 hon. rr.embers ~,ho can take a low key soeakcr. be mv aucst and to those "'ho enjov other fair \,ell the onlv thing I can sa•,1 is that this is not vour dav. I would like to speak a!'ainst t le mne:1.dment. Hr.

Speaker. and in particular to direct rnv remarks to the policies of this Government 1-'hich I ac very proud to be a part - policies which I feel h.ivc been followed in the fishinr, industrv which S<.!e the 1q70 year ooenin,? on a very '1:-rir;ht note. Hr. Spe.1.h,r. l?i'll ha5 started out for u;; on a far brir:hter a note than hns been the c.'.rne fo,r r:-:1!1v .:i ·r~;i r. .\ct ion t.::ii·en hy this C.overnmenc in 1968 Ii(. t/

February 26th •. 1970 Taoc no. 104 Page 3 and 19.69 together with action taken by the r.overnme.nt of Canada have contributed ~reatly to the inprovement in the fresh frozen and the salt fish industry of this Province. The market conditions for the fonier appear to be very good and the action taken by the Government of Canada in respect of the salt fish i,.dustry -will brinp, a dei,ree of stability to this segment of the fishing industry - the se~ment of the industrv th~t has be~n marked by instability for centuries. The development of the herrinf? fishery, 1-!r.

Speaker, ii:: continuing around the Island. and in oarticular alon!' the southwest coast, and Iara encourar.ed to see the direction in which this is movinl>' this year, and that is that the er.iphasis is more toTJards the utilization of herring for food. It has always seemed to me, Sir, that the use of this resource for no other purpose than for meal is to minimize the resource to say the least.

In the year that has just closed or about to come to a close the fiscal year, I think the production of herrinv for food in Net-:foundland uill reach around 80,000 barrels, and I see this production increa~inp in 1970. !·f!: . .!~~-HY_:_ Would the hon. minister !)ertnit a question? MR . ~!ALOl\Ti : Yes • -~ .. -~ .... -- ... -~ MR. MURPHY: llow drastic is this !!'Oin~ to be on this over-catch of herrini? Is that too serious an effect on our Province? I am just wondering. ~-.JIA!, _ON_EY_: In reply to the question that the hon. Leader of the Opposition, there remains much resFarch to be done.

I would say there is a question mark on the extent of this resource. The scientists have not yet been able to say to what extent it can be fished. There appears at the ~~ment to be no signs of overfishinp.

If the ~reater percentaPe of production at the moment is P,oinp into meal, if there were preater emphasis on herrinp for food. then I would say that this resource would be rood for centuries, but there remains a great deal of researc~.: to be done and I have been pressinsi; on behalf of the Govern~ent to see that more attention, more effort, more money is spent by the Government of Canada on this very valuable resource. I was able, Mr. S!'eaker, durin!' the vear to be able to brinf? to the Province

February 26th •. 1970 T.we no. 104 PAGE 4 and to have them arran~e meetin?S with packers in the Province a number of buyers frail' Europe. These men came from Sveden, from Denmark, fro!il Non.·ay and from Germany and I was able to arranp.e while they were here to have thera taken around the Province and to be ahle to enter into production arranger;:,ents with these local packers, and this has lead to the present production

schedule of perhaps ei?hty to o!le thousand harrels. Over the nast three or four years, ~•r. 3nt?aker, in conjuncti.0:1 Yith the federal ~Gnartment of Fisheries, we have been lookinz at a resource that was hither to unl<nm-m or certainly if it were knm,n, it was ner.lected and that is the shrimp resource. It has developed at one of the very prord.sing areas alon? th,:, coast whici, is in the unner nart of the straits of Bell Isle to be more precise it is in the r~rt aux Chaix area.

The Government this year will be enterinp into a joirt venture v."i.th the plant operators at Port aux Chaix Fishery Products Ltd. and into ventures with fishermen in that area involving the charterjnr of boats and the ~hole purpose is to develop the catching and processinr of shrimp. Our information from the market is that there is a very, very stron~ demand and our

part in the project will be to see that this worthwhile industry rets off to a p.ood start. Some members of the l!ousf' and I heli.,,ve the the hon. roemher for Gander and I believe the hon. ,~el"ber of Hermi tal!e 111P.ntioned and questioned the Government on wh:it the:1.r nlans were, if any to clo somethinp about stockinl? or restocking the inland waters. I would like to !'1alce rerrarks on that now. l'!r. Speal:er, with vour pemission. This matter has been on my mind for some ti~e and it h:is heen on the mind of the hon. the Prel'lier for 1"uch lonr.er.

T'P. has constantly ur?ed me to look into this and last year I was aLle to arranr.e wi.th the Department of Fisheries of the state of ''ichiran throuph the pood offices of the A!c'erican Consul here in St. John's to po to l'.ichir:i.n to see what they had done in that state in the development of a salr.ion fis!iery in Lake ~lichiran. The dcvelo:•ment 1 rr.ir;h t say to be as brief as I can has been successful beyond the 1-•ildest expectations of the people involved. It all started t!,is \,ay: uhen the St. I.a,·rence Se:way opened, the species of fish 1/t (-

'-· February 26th ., 1~70 Taoe no , 104 Pas:e 5 known as l!lc,,i\!es somethinp. like herrin -9. entered the seewa, and reached the Great Lakes a-nd surprisinrly enouph these fish made out so well in the Lakes and they eJ>.."Oanded so ra!)idly that after a fev years they becair.a a menace and throu~h disease or starvation ~reat ouantities , hundreds of thcusands tons of these fish washed ashorr on the shores of: Lake ~'.!chip.an.

T"nis meant the expenditure of r:iany miLlions -of dollars by the state in order to clean up the heaches of the lake, the shores of the Lake and it also cause d a loss of !".any millions ~f dollars to home 01.ners ,;;.-ho had exclusive residences alonf the shores of La~e ~ichi9.an .

There did not seem to be any way to overcome this dreadful problem caused by the overpopulation of these fish until sot:iebody had the idea that nerhaps the 'l."a)' out of t his is to bring in what they call ~ ;--redacor a species t hat '-'Ould enter th e lake and live off the bait fish . the ale.:1ves and th e cohoe salmon from the west coast was the specie that was selected. Briefly this con::lusion approved to be quite correct and the sall!'IOn took this nei.· environment exceptionally :~ell . ,- ,,

February 26th. 1970 Tape /;105 PK - 1 so much so, Mr. Speaker, that it is now possible in Lake }lichigan to harvest a large salmon fishery every year. AN HON. MEHilF.R: Inaudible. HR. }1ALONEY: That is commerical fishery as well as the fishery for the tourist industry. I am just coming to that. AN HON. ME-IBER: Inaudible. MR, ~!ALONEY: They are the pink flesh fish. Then they had to bring in elaborate programs of control in order to keep a proper balance between the salmon and the fish on which they fed. And this involved closed seasons and areas closed to fishing and that sort of thing.

But, they have developed very good control and the thing now appears to be in good balance. !lut the tourist industry - MR. A. WOR.i'\El.L: Will the hon. Minister·_of Fisheries advise the House, if these c~hoe salmon will spawn and thrive in fresh water with no outlet to the sea. Will they promote or grow to large size? HR, MALONEY: Yes, Hr. Speaker, they will. As a matter of fact, their growth in the lakes areacis greater, they will grow larger in the lak":s area than they have in their natural habitants in which they were taken in their original egg form.

But the tourist indL1stry in the state of }!ichig;,.n, Kr. Speaker, if I may go on is growing in leaps and bounds because of this development, and the state provides a very sizable budget each year to see that this continues to develop. Now the Department of Fisheries of ~.ichigan made it possible for me to see this development, to meet all the people who are directly concerned in it, and I owed them a great debt, which I very sincerely acknowledge now, and also to I wish to acknowledge again my debt/the U.S. <:onsul who made all the arrangec:ents.

Now I had in mind and the Premier had in mind when we carried out this visit and survey to see if this approach might have some application in t:ewfoundlao . and we had in mind the water area created by the Bay n·• Espoir Development. And of course, the much larger water area created by the Churchill Falls Development, but primarly it was the Bay D'Espoir Watershed Area.

But, there is one thing that we have to remer.iber and it is brought home very foricbly to me, and that was this, that the coastline of the Great Lakes - the 3GOO miles, which is from here down to Chidley and back again, and perhaps half ways d-.,.~-n again, I had no conception of the size of the water area in which this experiment was carried out. We think the Bay D'Espoir watershed area is appearing to be a very large area, but you could tuck Eay D'Esroir watershed area away in any corner of this 1-/1 f

!! February 26th. 1970 Tape ii 105 PK - 2 lake and hardly see it. This is one fact. The big problem, however,the big problem in bringin!! a development of this kind to Newfoundland, particularly the cohoe salmon, and other spicies like it, and that is there has to he-a spicies of of fish to form a feed-base. There has to be introduced because there is not no1o1 a stock in these ponds to form a feed-base and we have no small base fish that would thrive,at least this is what scientists tell me, that it could be introduced into the lakes and brought in, this is the big problem.

Ye~, somathin~ along caplin or mu~-herring or smelts or something like that, there maybe 3 possihility of smelt, I do not know. But I have kept up discussions with the Department of Fisheries of Ottawa, this matter is really not 1.'ithin the jurisdiction of the Province, but I have felt, and certainly the Government feels there responsibility to persue this sort of develoo~ent to bing it to a head, and to do all possible, so I have continued discussions with the Federal Department of Fisheries Resource Development Branch.

They have <lone as you know some work in Newfoundland on the introduction of the pink salmon, and there are ., plans to do something with the introduction of a trout species in Newfoundland. It is not developed too far at this time, but they :ire perhaps thinkin~ about rainhow trout as a suitable fish for the Bay D'Espoir area. So I thoui:?;ht I would report, Mr. Speaker, with your permission on this matter because it has been raised by hon. me~bers of the House.

I would like to speak for a moment or two on the Labrador Fishery, because during the past year I have met 1o1ith quite a number of people who are directly involved in the Labrador Fishery, we have had meetin~s, the Premier and I, the delegation, meetings from all parts of Newfoundland, and it is a matter of great concern, it co~tinues to be a matter of great concern fer 1970's. Now while the inshore fishery around the Province last year was considered to be fairly good, the situation along the Labrador Coast is the exact opposite. The voya~e there can only be considered as a dismal failure.

This applied to the livers, and it applies stationers, and it applies to the floaters. The fishery failed simply because the codfish did not come to the land durin~ the time of the year when the fishery is carried on. This is a short season, starting from about early June and ending about mid-Auiust. There has been years over the past century, when the Labrador Fishery failed in whole, or in part, hut I do not think ever to such a degree as it did in the past year. If/.,{_,-

\ \ . Now in trying to access the future of the inshore fishery aloni,; the Labrador. We cannot and I cannot honestly he · unmindful of one very important situation which is relatively new insofar as the Labrador Fishery is concerned, and that is this fact, Hr. Speaker, that over the past four or five years there has been such a build up of activity on the Hamilton Bank by a fleet to foreign nations, and it is from this Bank that the Labrador gets its stock.

That a grzat question mark has been raised in the rn:i.nds of people who have been looking at the problem, as to what the prospects are for this year and the years to come. Last year, one counctry alone, one foreign country alone took a billion pounds of cod from the Hamilton Bank. Now in case, Mr.

Speaker, anyone raises the question of the twelve mile limit, let me say right now that the twelve mile liMit is totally irrelevant here, the Hamilton Bank area is out in international waters beyond the twelve mile limit, where the Labrador stock -is derived and limit other than those which would take in the continental shelf reall:• had very little relevance. So it would hardly seem to me to be likely that great quanties of fish such as I have mentiuned ,. can contin,U: to be taken from the Hamilton Bank without having totally, totally serious disastrous;effect on the insh8re fishery or the Labrador.

The impression I p,et from the scientists is that this is the single big factor in the decline of the Labrador Fishery.

I have to say this to say less would be less than honest, I have to say it as I see it, and as I am informed and this is the way it is - the o,mers cf the floater fleet, these are Newfoundland base vessels have had several meetins ~s with me, several meetings with the Pre~ier in his office, I have been able to a:ran~e a number of meetings between them and the officialsof the Government of Camada, so that they can be fully informed, because it has to be realized that tf.=se ~en have a substantial investment in vessels, many of them new vessels. 'ffihe Province has an investment in them in the way of subsidy and in the way of loams, the Federal for its part has a sustantial investment in these vessels, and the:· 'coastinR trade which provided an _alternative a few years ago has difficulty.

Theme maybe one coastal vessel, one small wooden coastal vessel operating on the coas-t:.: of Newfoundland this year. So, there is no really no other alternative. Thfs presents these I.abra<lor- -Bki!'pers with very serious problems. One of the g,:r.ceat costs of operating a Labrador vessel is the cost of insurance. il.nd in many ~ases, I think, they have to pay as high as seveneenth percent, and this costs mamy thousand dollars. And the regulations r, ;. . . --·-..; lfl::

February 26th. 1970 l'ape v 105 PK - 4 being bought in by the Canadian Steamship Inspection will become more rigid, they have added to the cost of eperation, lifeboats, life jackets , various other considerations of fire protection, and the like all of which is added to the cost of operating a Labrador vessel. AN IlON, ~'.EMBER: Inaudible MR. l!ALONEY: No that is the Hall Insurance.

One piece of practical assistance has been devised as a result of these meetings, and that is that we .-have been able to presuade the Government of Canada to include.these vessels in an insurance scheme which they have had for years, but only covered ~mall vessels. !:ow they have taken in the Labrador vessel last year up to a hundred feet ar.d beginning April 1st. any Labrador type vessel in excess of one hundred feet, so all classes of Labrador floaters will be included. This will mtdn in the case of some Labrador skippers, perhaps the saving: of $3';0\)0 .•to, $4,000.

This could be the difference between staying home and continuing the voyage in 1970. l-!R.. T. A. HICKMAN: \./ill this insurance be available for the coasting trade generally in the Province? The wooden fleet? Or is it just restricted to the Labrador fleet? MR. }~\LONEY: This insurance is kno~'n as the fishermen indemnity plan. There has never applied to vessels engaged in the coasting trade. It started off as a scheme to help the small boats from twenty~feet up and it has got up to fifty, sixty-five feet, last year to hundred and now its opened ended and will take in the Labrador type of vessel.

This is one thin~ that has been devised for the Labrador floater. Another thing we have been able to do, and I hope it is for work when we get at it, we have looked into the possibility of err.ploying a number of these vessels, there are not too many around, perhaps fifteen or sixteen employing some of them in exp~oratory fishing. That is looking for other species of fish or looking for species of fish on new r,rounds, uncharted to both Governments. This was somethin~ that we have been doing t/'7/

~-. . 1, February 26, 1970, Tape 106-107, Pagel -- apb doing on a small scale in a number of years, a:.:.d we hope to do this with a number of vessels in the coming season, This we hope can offer some encouragement to some of the Labrador floaters. If we can develop a deversified fisheri.cs then some of these vessels can be withdra= and put into other seg:nents. I would like to touch on the fishing in the Straits oi Belle Isle.

The fishery which has given us over the past several years some concern - and with which we have been dealing as a Government - in my opinion very deligently and that is the interference with the fishery there by the trawlers of foreign nations. This interference lessened some•.,•hat }1r. Speaker during 1969, but it does continue to be a bit of a problem in certain parts of 1/ewfoundland. Now until these waters become exclusive fishing waters to Canada and this is outside the jurisdiction of this House - and all foreign fleets are kept out, we have founf Hr.

Speaker that the programs that we introduced the year before last and last year - and that was programs to replace gear lost by fishermen free of cost to the fishermen did not answer the problem. It was no solution. It appeared to be a solution at the time, it appeared to be a means of getting the fishermen very quickly back in the bQ?ts - but conclusions now, after the experie1•ce of ~ 1 f • u coupe o years, is that it is not an answer, The trawlers, in the knowledge that the Government was going to provide free gear paid less heed than ·"'

MR. tW.O:rnY: t;,,.fors? to the plight of the inshore fishermen. So another answer had to be found - another ans.wcr nas to iic found. I .i.-n nut ,;ucc that we have found one yet, but we have come up with a nei.• approach to that very significant part of our inshore fishery - and that is to assist the fishermen towards other metl,ocls - the use of other raethod.s and other types of fishing gear, so that the longliners that they own can .operate side by side with draggers if that si t~ation arises - and I ref er to a nt'.!\ol' method of fishing call pier-seining, The hon. member for St.

Barbe South will I am sure be interested in this and the hon. member for St. Barbe :-.orth.

This is the method which has proven very successful out of Prince Edward Island, and we atartetl last fall in the straits to do some work - but really all we rlid was lo get ready for this season, ..ie will b~ ready to operate a numl:er of longlincrs out of that area this year in pier-seining and this will remove some of the hazzards of the past year - where they set a fixed piece of gear rather than tow a piece of gear as they will in this new method, We will also be eroploving a number of longliners in that area for tr4Pping, and we propose to do a good deal of work in scallop fishing - so all this will have the effect of taking al.lay a number of vessels from this gill - netting and put tini; them to vork in other types oi iishery which 1v.i.ll take the emphasis off this ha7.Qardous gill - netting.

Hr. Speaker, MR. COLLUS: MR, MALOi.EY: HR. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, would the hon. minister permit a question please Yes ?Ir. Speaker I wonder ".lould the hon. '.linister of Fisheries agree that gill- nets_possibly one of the greatest curses of the inshore fishery in Newfoundland now? The use of gill nets I should say. MR. MALONEY: Well I think there is quite a differeilce in the two statements that the hon. gentleman just maJe ;-Ir.

Speaker, there can be - I think what he meant to say was iil ti,e use of the nets, .::nJ I would have to agree - perhaps a gill net as well as any other piece of fishing gear if it is misused and not properly used can become a nusiance, and perhaps bad for the fishery. I think this is the point he -wished to make and I agree with it, }IR. :•IYRDE:'I: .Hr, Speaker, this:ueu pUr - : seining - does the t.1inister feel that this will be the :t,1s1-,cr to everything in the straits?

Does he feel also t!rnt by recolJllllending that the twelve mile lir.iit be extended throughout the /t] : straits, docs he not feel that this will be a lot more good for the fishermen

than even pd.fr-seining? !' MR, HALON'EY: Mr. Speaker, on that the question of limit and the question of fishing rights are beyond my - beyond our jurisdiction. I would agree that there is no doubt about the extension of the twelve mile limit - or the demarcation of the area as an excl=ive area to the local boats would be a good thing, but we do not have that - in the absence of that we are endeavouring as a Government to int=duce new methods of fishing there which would get over some of the problems i.i.itich we have had during the last two or three years. Hr.

Speaker, get ting back ta, our policies, and the criticisms that are leveled at us - it will be of ints:erest to this House and to the people of the Province I am sure to know that tiihe whaling industry has enjoyed a successful some-back in the last thr= years. This is something abou:: which very little has been said - very littll.e has been written but there are going ahead in tlewfoundland and will be goimg al1ead this year - two operations, one at Williams Port and the other at Dilillo in Trinity Bay.

These worked quite successfully last year - the quotas foyr Newfoundlancl and the quotas are arrived at after surveys have been ma.de by the Federal Department concerned. The surveys would appear to be quite , . .tdequate to lead us to believe that the sticks are quite adequate to permit tfuese two whaling operations to continue at good economic levels. The wiiale pcnpulatlon is in fact, increasing quite significantly - not dramatically,but !!:he quotas that are given to the two operators still permit a good exp;:msiam of the whale population. This again is a development 1~hich will benefit many of our people.

Mr. Speaker, I feel that I should say, c.something about the situation that was very much in the news and this concerms the plant at - of Atlantic Fish Processers at Marystmm. Something ovH!r a year ago Sir, the fresh frozen industry - fresh frozen fish industry. ,of this Province as in all of Canada, and indeed, in any country where frozmn fish was produced was in a desperate situation.

Now the reasons why this w,as so irrelevant is the point I am going to make - but in this Province apart ff:rom the very few companies, and I believe there were perhaps not more than two the frozen fish operaters had without exception to come to the Government o.tf Newfoundland for assistance to keep their plants open. There were many instances where these plants were so imperiled that a close dot.Tl. ,,as only a matter off a month or two months away. The fact }!r.

Speaker, is well known to the llous,e - to the people of t,ewfoundland that L/7' two of the large companies - the grea~l: international companies ~irdseyc and

Ross did indeed close do1m. The livlihcod ot several thousand plant workers was in jeopardy, and outlets for ti1e catch of a great many of our inshore fishermen were in dan~er of being closed out. . ;:iow my coll.?agucs ir: the Government including two former colleagues who now sit across tile House, ::ire v.r:ry familiar with this situation - and they know the lengthy meetings '.Jit,.i ·which were occasioned by this serious situation. They also know, of the .extent of the assistance by way of loans and guarantees that had to be made iby the Government.

These loans and guarantees are a matter of public r.ecord, because they appeared in the loan and guarantee Act in the !louse as i:S required by lat..'. One company in !'articular, .1\tlantic Fish Processors, in Hay of 1969 sought a revision of their repoymeo,:t: sc\1edule to the Governme:nt because their forecast, their projections of the IJ:1eturns from the market convinced them that they would be able to - that tfu:ey would not be able to meet their payi:lent schedule. ;,;ow I took a different v:if,ew, and I so advised my colleagues in the Government.

Their viev was a pessinrJ.stic view - I took a different view and I so advised my colleaeues. A numbec,r of meetings were held with the company the result of these meetings was thar.t a surv~y on terms of reference laid down l>y the Government - and to w;lich the compa:-,y agreed was undertaken. In October the firm Kates, Peet and :laID1<'ick. completed their report, handed it to the Government and discussions were - 'reopened with the company. HR. EARLE: I t..'onder would the non:~ minister permit a ques tion1 MR. HALOilEY: Yes }!r. Speaker. HR.

EARLE: This agreement '-'ith th~ !Atlantic Fisil Processors, I just cam1ot recall when was that drawn up - at wfaat time was that originally drafted - do you remember? HR. l-lALONEY: }Ir. Speaker, I beliewe it vas in 196 7 - perhaps - the date skips me for the moment, but I believe tfaa.,t it was in 1967. It was a statutory agreement, tabled in the House. But this report Hr. Speake ·ll:", made by the firm of ~tes, Peet, Marwick in collaboration with the company I' ,am very happy to say - very happy, confirmed the views of the Governr.icnt and I am, happier to say confirmed this to the cc::ipa..-1. as well.

Now I have no doubt in my- ,nind :-Ir. Speaker, that the people who worked at the plant in Marystovn were concerned durini; the time this survey was being carried out. Of course they were cmncerned, their livlihood was involved a.ld they were wondering - but as soon as; we had the report and our views were confirmcJ ~he people of t!arystolJ!l ,;;,ere reassured- they were reassured by the tr.

February 26, 1970, Tape 107, Page apb Premier publicly in Marystot.1Il in late October at a public meeting, and they were reassured· by me that the report had been received - it was a favourable report - and that the companies operations would be carrying on. I must say ~tr.

Speaker, in the case of all loans and guarantees and agreements concerne<l therewith to the fishing industry, the Government are in possession of infonnation regarding the financial position of these companies, and all information which maybe - which certainly can be considered of a confidential nature regarding their operations, as may be required by the minister. This is customary and is the case in the case of every loan and guarantee.

This kind of information is sought not only when agrP.ements are being made for loans and guarantees, but is also as,.;e<l for and I might say readily given any time during the currency of agreements. I would like to put it on record that any information requested from companies is made readily and cheerfully available to the Government. 1nere is a complete understanding of this situation by the companies and results in information being available to us at any time. Now in the san.e manner Hr. Speaker, we have dealings, the Govcrm:,cnt, with several thousand

February 26, 1970 Tape 108 Page 1 GC manner, Mr. Speaker, we have dealings - the Government - with several thousand fishermen in this Province. Several thousand fishermen borrow from the Government for boats, for equipment for fishing and we are required to gather from these fishemen, confidential information. We ask them about their assets, We ask them about their cash holdings, their bank accounts. We are required to do that. This is good business p1:actice and I believe it is perhaps required by statutes.

But, anyway, it is given to us very readily - information, private information, confidential information, by thousands of fishermen. A one newspaper editor challenged me not so long age, as the Minister of Fisheries, saying that if I expected to retain the confidence of the fishing industry in the fishermen of the Province, that I should publish the report referred to in che case of the Marystown plant. I say, Mr.

Speaker, it is precisely for that very reason, and that is, I repeat, that I wish to hold the confidence of the fishermen and the fishing industry of this Province that I regard statements, reports, and information given to me by these people as privileged - confidential. Mr. Speaker, to conclude MR. HICK}IA.~: I wonder if the minister ill permit a question before we get off this fishery. In view of the encouraging improvement in the frozen fish industry, does he see any possibility of the re-openi~g of the Ross plant and negotiations going on. MR. MALONEY: Mr.

Speaker, I can only say to that, that we tas a Government are continuing to look for people who are interested in establishing here. I know that the Pratt Brothers are constantly looking for someone to reopen that op~ration. I believe one of the difficulties in getting that plant reopened is perhaps the difficulty in getting trawler fleets at this present time. I think if that were overcome, then I believe, there would be o~erators appear on the scene for that operation. MR. HICKMA.'i: A restoration of the bounty or subsidy on steel draggers might solve that proble~.

The cost is getting almost beyond the reach of any operator today. SOME 110:-:1. ME:·!BER: And the Government of Canada.

\ ' .. February 26, 1970 Tape 108 Page 2 GC MR. MALO~EY: The Government of Canada. Yes, on that I have no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that this would lead - that a number of operators in Newfoundland who presently have . a -way back in their ARDA book - ideas for trawler!i, :.new trawlers - they would certainly start rebuilding, start building and certainly an operator who had some interest in the Ross Strers plant Yith an increase in the subsidy and taking the freeze off the subsidy would certainly increase the interest and the possibilities of opening this plant. MR. HICIG',AN: Mr.

Speaker, it is purely with the intention of trying to find the answers. Is there any merit in - this would work two way~, as I see it - in the Marystown shipyard trying to come up with some scheme of rental purchase with a view to overcome two problems: one providing additional draggers to the local fleet, and secondly, reactivating that plant. HR. MALONEY: Mr. Speaker, on that I am very happy to be able to say, now, that the survey involving what the hon. member, I think has in mind, is presently underway. Presently underway - that is as much as I can say about it. The survey has just started.

We had had some meetings with a commission set up by the Government of Canada to look into this whole question of vessel subsidy. They are now meeting and, as I say, the survey is started with this view in mind. Mr, Speaker, we are to close and say that, speaking against this amendment, in my opinion, we are entering 1970 with excellent prospects in our mining industry, the markets appear to be very strong.

The markets for our forest industry with the exception of one incident which came to our attention today, appear to be good and the prospects of-the fish~ng industry, as I just •outlined, appear to me to be very bright indeed. I am realizing, of course, that we are dependent -as,:a;: Province on world markets and these are very often - not very often - almost aften, things over which we have no control. The prospects of our Province, to me look very bright indeed for 1970. APPLAUSE MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the minister one question?

And I ask this, I hope, for the sake of this House, that:,the , 11t1swer is, "No". For his sake, maybe I hope the answer is, "Yes".

February 26, 1970 Tape 108 Page 3 GC Is this the hon. the minister's farewell speech to this House? SOME HON. MEMBER: You are darn right, it is not, MR. SAUNDERS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to oppose the amendment. It is.L imagine - it is a vote of non-confidence in our Government. I have been giving a lot of thought lately, here, since last Monday, not of crosaing the floor, oh no, not coming over there, but of listening to all the votes of non-confidence and the Government of this side of the House.

But, I have not heard any suggestion when they asked for an amendment to the S~eech from the Throne of how to create jobs. All! have heard is an amendment that they had no cnnfidence in the Government. SOME HON. MEMBER: All wind and no rain. MR. SAUNDERS: I know ther~ has been a lot of hot air around but today, if - They are not going to ultimate. It is no good, I have not got a vote down and you are not going to stop me that way, •- But, it is their place. I know it is the Opposition's place to come across. I have not got a loud voice. I am not a meek one.

I cannot get up here and read and say what I have got to say but I can keep on going and keep on going, but, I am disappointed over the past six years that I have been here th~t I have not heard a suggestion anywhere from the opposit!ion ._.· hov-to create one job. Maybe on an election promise you are going to say how to create jobs. I heard that the last election and the federal election - how to create jobs, but there is not one of them ever created - not one. They were even going to build bridges - they did n,ut do it, because they had no authority to do it.

If that is the kind of promises you are going to make on Provincial stuff - that is what you have done_ Now, I know what I am talking .about, and I want to stay off that. I do not want to get into anything t:lha·t is going to be controversial - do. not want to, because I have been at th:i.s twenty years in el~ctions that I can --

twenty years in elections and I can fight my own battles. Mr. Speaker,there are some things that I have confidence in and plenty, and maybe we will get from the Opposition some suggestions, or maybe a question of how it can be done - and who will start it, and I will give them some thought - and I will say to them now, what I am going to say, invest some of your money to Newfoundlanders. I learned that when you ~et up to speak. the easiest way to speak, is just look at one person and keep a smile on his face and you can get along.

I do not think the hon. member from Burin was going to turn around for the scowl there - I have always kept a smile there anyway. Now in the Speech from the Throne I heard one thing - I will take one thing first. The herring industry. They are going to produce 80,000 barrels of herring in this Province this year - from 15,000 to 80,000 barrels of herring. That sounds great maybe to every member in this Chamber - 80,000 barrels of herring. To me it sounds more than 80,000 barrels of herring.

I am one of three people today in the Island of ~ewfoundland - I am the youngest - a master cooper, my first trade. 80,000 barrels of herring means 80,000 barrels. I have not heard one question from the Opposition - where are the barrels coming from? I will tell you where the barrels are coming from and what they are costing. They arA roming from Norway, Holland, Nova Scotia - there are a few from Ne~foundland. I will admit there is one percent getting manufactured, I have asked a number of persons who are packing herring today, who cannot get one barrel - cannot get one, because they are not available.

You cannot get one of softwood or hardwood, because the ~oftwood is in so much demand, that they are cominii; in from Nova Scotia - hardwood - they are coming in softwood. Nov that 2,000,000 and a half of lumber that can be cut on crown land within the three or four or five mile limit - the Machinery for that in Newfoundland is outdated, is gone, no good. It is not even manufactured fast- enough. The machine that a few years ago would saw 3,000 staves a day which was a good machine - you can huy one today that can cut 36,000 staves an hour. You can ~et a heading maching that can do the same thing.

All this most modern machinery - I have the catalogues of it, for an outlay of about $30,000. You can get the whole olant ready.

February 26th •• 1970 Tape no. 109 Paize 2 Now we have in this country today the lumber - it does not take tradesmen anymore. We have the machinery right in here Donovans to make the hoops - because they have been made. I had them in my hands - the hoops - the same cords, or cheaper even than we can ~ring them in from the Mainland. Now· there is $400,000 labour i,n that one little industry, if we as Newfoundlanders were our own vorst enemies. If we in Newfoundland would say today - someone, I do not care 1,1ho {tis,, vould say, we are goiniz to start a little industry.

The r.overnment will he~~ - I am just throwing out a challen2e. I have not got the money. I had to give mm the cooperage business, because cardboard cartons came in. I had the largest coope :11:.age in the country. I had to 1,1:ive it up, it just sent out - faded - died - t;l!;irough no fault of this Government - through no fault of anyone. It just died. But today there is an ope~ing for someone with an initiative and money. Not too much - yes, would say to the hon. member from St. Barbe South - maybe he has enou~h to start it.

Sure why not start in Bay of Islands, up in Curlin~ - I was up there when I travelled the length of Curling in every little cove-.. I bouzht three pieces of machinery up there. I brought it out to Carbonear - used it. It was old machinery, but I made it do. It was only a couple of days a~o I 11:ave awav a piece of machinery - outdated - I gave it to a man ~~wn in Bay of Islands - to make him a barrel - this machine would make him a b.acrrel, but not for me because it was not fast enough. Today you cannot p:et a ma:n that can keep their arm going all day sawing - it has to be automatic. MR.

MYRDEN: You can get it in Bay of Isl=ds. MR. SAUNDERS: No you cannot get it in Bajl' of Islands - Little Bay Island I 8111. sorry. This man can get a man maybe t~ ~o into the woods and cut enough say for a hundred barrels. That is not what I mean today. I mean someone to start an industry to come up and create some empbr,yment - cut the logs we have - we have birch, we have witchhazel, we have spr.uce, we have fir and juniper. We have all that in this country that is small - ya~~ onlv need a four inch log - four to five inch log, and you have the whole thin~. That is all you need.

I have watched them in No~a Scotia do it. MR. HYRDF.N: Will the hon. member permit a ~uestion? On Fisheries again. As I understand it, there is only one great sch~,ol of herring left in North America, IL,,. J> i

February 26, 1970 Tape l' l09 Page 3 and it happens to be around Newfoundland. How long does the Minister feel that we will be able to take herring from the sea and packing at eighty thousand barrels a year? MR. SAmIDERS: I do not know if the bon. member was in the House when the bon. member for Burin asked that qu