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December 6, 1976

30th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L130 - Mon 6 Dec 1976 / Lun 6 déc 1976

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

RUST PROTECTION WARRANTY

FINANCE COMPANY SOLICITATIONS

FINANCE COMPANY SOLICITATIONS

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH

FUNDS FOR MENTALLY RETARDED

CULTURAL AGENCIES’ BUDGETS

OHTB BUS LICENCE

PICKERING NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION

WINTARIO

AIR POLLUTION AT NIAGARA FALLS

DRG GLOBE ENVELOPES LIMITED

PRICES AT HIGHWAY SERVICE CENTRES

DRUGS MAGAZINE

COMMERCIAL FISHING REGULATIONS

PETITION

MOTIONS

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

ANSWER TO WRITTEN QUESTION

HIGHWAY TRANSPORTATION OF GOODS

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

Hon. Mr. Auld: Mr. Speaker, I have a message from the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor signed by her own hand.

Mr. Speaker: By her own hand, P. M. McGibbon, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, transmits supplementary estimates of certain additional sums required for the services of the province for the year ending March 31, 1977, and recommends them to the legislative assembly, Toronto, December 6, 1976.

Mr. Speaker: Statements by the ministry.

RUST PROTECTION WARRANTY

Hon. Mr. Handleman: Mr. Speaker, as most members now are aware, a new standard rust protection warranty is being offered to consumers through the combined efforts of Ontario motor vehicle dealers and my ministry.

An increasing number of complaints, indicating that consumers ran into a brick wall when they tried to obtain redress for a rusted car, prompted the ministry’s investigation of the rust protection business several months ago.

Car dealers sold rust protection as a service to their customers, applying a compound supplied by outside agencies which offered their own warranties. If rust appeared, the excuse of the dealer often was that the fault lay in the supplier’s material. If the supplier was confronted, the problem was blamed on shoddy application by the dealer. Either way, the consumer was caught in the middle.

Consumers who placed faith in the warranties offered by suppliers soon found these were no guarantee of satisfaction either. The documents often contained so many loopholes as to be virtually useless.

To solve the problem the ministry’s motor vehicle dealer branch initiated discussions with both the Toronto and the Ontario Automobile Dealers Associations. The result is a uniform rust-inhibitor service warranty, which all dealers have been requested by their associations to adopt.

They have also agreed to remove the term rust-proofing from all advertising material because it tends to mislead consumers. Rust-inhibiting compounds may offer several years of protection but they do not provide absolute rust-proofing.

The new warranty is to apply for a period of five years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. Consumers who have purchased the process from participating dealers will be guaranteed that the underbody, frame and all enclosed parts of the vehicle have been treated correctly.

Consumers must return the vehicle for annual check-ups if the warranty is to apply. This gives the dealer the opportunity to make sure the compound was applied correctly. If rust is found, it is the dealer’s responsibility to repair completely or replace the damaged area or part, free of charge.

Dealers bear total responsibility for the rust-protection job even if the compound used is supplied by an outside agency. They are also responsible if they refer customers to an independent rust-protection company for any remuneration. Warranties provided by suppliers may be offered as well as long as the basic consumer rights in the standard warranty are not diminished by disclaimers or hidden phrases.

Discussions with the independent rust-protection companies are still continuing. Some have already agreed to change their approach and adjust their warranties to conform with the standards that now apply to dealers.

The ministry has reached mutual agreement with the industry on this warranty. It provides consumers with a reasonable standard of protection and ensures that dealers will live up to their responsibilities in the rust protection field.

Mr. Speaker, now for the bad news.

FINANCE COMPANY SOLICITATIONS

Hon. Mr. Handleman: The Christmas season has always been a favourite time of year for some members of the community to take advantage of the general feeling of good will among consumers. I would like to take this opportunity to warn members and the public at large of one such scheme which came to my attention yesterday.

A major finance company is distributing to its so-called preferred customers a promissory note which is labelled as a cash voucher.

I would like to read the letter accompanying this promissory note.

“Dear Customer: Enclosed is a voucher in your name which is good for $506.94. Just sign the voucher and return it in the enclosed self-addressed envelope. You will receive your cheque for $506.94 by return mail.”

Mr. Moffatt: Sounds like a home buyer’s grant.

Hon. Mr. Handleman: “That is all there is to it. No office visits required. No red tape. No additional forms to fill out. Simply sign the voucher and return it to me. This offer is made to you as one of our preferred customers. So return your signed voucher today and you will receive a cheque for $506.94 in the earliest return mail possible. You can be sure of my personal attention.”

Mr. Lewis: Absolutely incredible.

Hon. Mr. Handleman: “Best wishes for a happy holiday season. P.S. Act now. Remember you only have 15 days to send in the voucher. Also, if you need a larger loan, call me personally.”

Mr. Lewis: Come on.

Mr. Moffatt: Is that signed by the Premier?

Hon. Mr. Handleman: The overall effect of this representation could mislead the consumer into supposing this is an offer of special benefit to him when in fact it is an offer of a loan at an effective annual rate of interest of 21.5 per cent.

There may be nothing specifically illegal about this solicitation although my lawyers are looking at it carefully.

Mr. Lewis: It sure is misleading.

Hon. Mr. Handleman: Not every immoral action is illegal. But if we cannot proceed under statute, I will ask the company to withdraw this campaign voluntarily. One way or another, it must be stopped.

If members of the business community wonder why they are plagued by consumer legislation they need only look to actions of this kind which cry out for a response from government.

I urge members of this House to draw any further solicitations of this kind to my attention.

Mr. Moffatt: What is the name of the company?

Mr. McClellan: The name of the company.

Mr. Lewis: On a point of order, because I don’t want to take the question period time for this, Mr. Speaker, do I understand that the minister prefaced his statement with an indication that he wanted to bring to the attention of the public one such solicitation, taking advantage of Christmas cheer? Does the Speaker not think it would assist the House if we and the public were told the name of the finance company he is speaking of?

Mr. Singer: That’s not a point of clarification or order or anything else. How about calling him to order?

Mr. Lewis: Yes, it is. Certainly, it is.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Any further questions should be directed during the question period.

Interjections.

Mr. Lewis: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Singer: Why doesn’t he ask it in question period the same as everybody else?

Mr. Speaker: I really don’t think it’s a point of order.

Mr. Lewis: I was trying to raise a point of order, whatever the barracking. I don’t think it should be necessary for us to take time during question period to ask a question which should have been answered when the statement was made.

Mr. Singer: Nonsense. There is not one set of rules for him and another for somebody else. Call him to order.

Mr. Lewis: Now, what kind of silliness is that?

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. If there is an answer to it or if it is a general warning --

Hon. Mr. Handleman: If I might speak on the point of order --

Mr. Singer: It is a question of whether he is in order or not.

Mr. Foulds: Is the company one of the clients of the member for Wilson Heights?

Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. minister have a further comment on that?

Hon. Mr. Handleman: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, what I was trying to bring to the attention of all members and the public at large is that this kind of solicitation is taking place and that we would like to put a stop to it.

Mr. Speaker: That was my understanding.

Mr. MacDonald: Name them.

Mr. Singer: Now we’ve got a debate going on between the Leader of the Opposition and the minister, before the orders of the day.

Hon. Mr. Handleman: If anybody wishes to ask me, I’d be prepared to identify the company.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Oral questions.

Mr. Breithaupt: Ask him what the name is.

FINANCE COMPANY SOLICITATIONS

Mr. Lewis: To the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: Would he like to share with the Legislature and the public, whose transactions and misleading solicitations he has described?

Hon. Mr. Handleman: First of all, I don’t know yet whether they’re misleading in terms of our legislation. The company under whose letterhead this solicitation is made is Household Finance Corporation.

Mr. Lewis: Thank you.

Mr. Reid: Why didn’t the minister say that in the first place?

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH

Mr. Lewis: May I address a question first to the Minister of Labour? Do I take it the Minister of Labour knows of the unprecedented and welcome letter from Dr. William McCracken of the Workmen’s Compensation Board to the medical profession, where Dr. McCracken actually solicits information from the profession on industrially-generated diseases? I think it’s the first time it’s ever happened with the board. Can we ask her, following on from this, to see whether the board would initiate the second phase, which is to track down those workers in industries who may have been exposed to industrially-generated disease and will subsequently fall ill?

Hon. B. Stephenson: The action taken by Dr. McCracken was with the co-operation of the general secretary of the Ontario Medical Association. It is a move further than has ever been taken, I think, by a medical director of the Workmen’s Compensation Board, in earlier days and it will be a very useful activity. It is my hope that the occupational health division or branch of the Ontario Medical Association will spearhead the responses to this request.

In response to the second question posed by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, it seems to me the initial activity which is necessary is to find out from every single industrial establishment in this province the history of those chemicals which have been used and those chemicals which are being used at the present time. The Ministry of Labour itself has taken that on as the initial move in the direction which he is suggesting; that has already been done.

Mr. B. Newman: Supplementary: Would the minister require all manufacturing companies in the province of Ontario to submit a list to her every time they order any type of chemical, so that she would have a complete list of the chemicals ordered by that company at the time of ordering them?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Most industrial establishments are aware, as a result of their long- range planning, of the kinds of chemicals which they are likely to be using within the foreseeable future, and we have asked them to give us full information about those which they have used in the past, are presently using and will probably be using in the future.

Mr. Lewis: Supplementary: Since the board has now moved in this important way, might it not also look at those industries where there is a clear incidence of occupationally-related disease -- the Reeves Mine comes to mind -- and begin to track down workers who may have had undue or excessive exposure since we are finally transforming the role which the board has seen fit to play up to now?

[2:15]

Hon. B. Stephenson: This is a very desirable activity and one I believe the board wishes to carry out. There are some problems related to it. The development of nominal roles in the asbestos industry, for example, is inhibited somewhat by the mobility of the workers from that area and our apparent inability to receive from other Workmen’s Compensation Boards and other agencies the kind of information which would be useful. A great deal of thought is being given to that specific activity and I am sure something of that sort will be established.

Mr. Godfrey: Will the minister now initiate an inquiry from Chipman Chemicals Limited in Hamilton about workers who have been exposed to leptophos over the past 10 years?

Hon. B. Stephenson: The Chipman Chemicals company has informed us that it is using leptophos in the trade name variety, Phosvel, which it acquires from a distributor in Mississauga, known as Velsical Corporation of Canada. Apparently this material is used to kill cutworms on tobacco plants, primarily. It is shipped out in 300-pound containers which are sealed and which consist of flakes. I gather for the tobacco industry it is mixed with xylene and sprayed.

The workers in that plant specifically have been under the supervision of The Industrial Safety Act and the industrial safety inspectors have been in the plant. I believe the last time was in March or April of this year. At that time no directions were left because this particular chemical company has such a good health and safety record. Instead of being on a six-month cycle for inspection they are now, I think, on a 12-month or even a 24-month cycle, because their record is excellent.

All of the workers have been supplied with complete protective equipment -- coveralls; rubber aprons; rubber boots; masks; goggles; hats; gloves -- and they have had no problems at all because Dr. Strickland has tested most of the workers who have been involved with that drug. Specifically, at the Hamilton General Hospital, they have had cholinesterase tests done with some regularity and there is no evidence at all of any abnormality.

Mr. Lewis: A question related to that, to the Minister of Agriculture and Food, if I may. Is the minister aware that the United States federal government has refused to issue a licence for the use of leptophos as an agricultural pesticide? Will his ministry and the Ministry of the Environment give serious consideration to removing leptophos as a pesticide in use, I guess it is, under

schedule 2 for agricultural purposes in view of the information coming from the United States about the very severe nerve damage done to some who are exposed to that pesticide?

Hon. W. Newman: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I’ll be glad to talk it over with the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Kerr).

Mr. Lewis: And then perhaps report back to the House?

Hon. W. Newman: I really think the answer should come from the Minister of the Environment but I will discuss it with him.

Mr. Lewis: May I ask, by way of supplementary, has the minister been made aware of the potential hazards associated with leptophos? Has anything come to his attention?

Hon. W. Newman: It has come to the attention of the ministry and I was aware of it but I wasn’t aware of the total effects of using it.

FUNDS FOR MENTALLY RETARDED

Mr. Lewis: If I may, a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. Is it possible for the minister to comment on the letter he received, dated November 18, from the Georgian Bay Council on Mental Retardation, drawing to his attention the absence of government support of a number of light skills programmes put forward by community groups -- with implicit or explicit approval from the ministry, though no funding -- from Owen Sound, Port Elgin, the Dufferin area, Orillia, Collingwood, Barrie and Walkerton? Can he give some explanation about the delay within the ministry?

Hon. Mr. Taylor: I would be happy to share with the Leader of the Opposition my response to that particular matter. I will see that he gets a copy of that.

Mr. Lewis: By way of supplementary, if I may, was the minister not aware of the very strong concern being voiced by the Georgian Bay Council on Mental Retardation at the delay in approval of projects which were discussed with the ministry, sometimes as far back as July and August and left hanging until today, describing therefore how the feeling among those responsible for finances in the workshops has turned from optimism in 1975 to depression, et cetera?

Hon. Mr. Taylor: This is a continuation of some comments I made last week. As the Leader of the Opposition knows, or should know, all of the projects that are desired in an area are discussed not only with the local Association for the Mentally Retarded but through the district working groups, and we have 19 such district working groups now in place in Ontario and functioning very well.

May I also say what we did in my ministry -- and I may say I’ve ensured that it was so -- was, with the money that is provided in the budget, we set forth goals in terms of number of places or additional places in workshops, accommodation places and so on. Those statistics are all available and I’m happy to say that we are really in advance of our target.

In general terms, we are really exceeding our expectations in regard to providing more places in workshops and more accommodation. As I explained last week, there were some problems in regard to financing some things, principally workshops. That was due, I think principally, to an expansion of their programmes without prior consultation or approval from the ministry which meant, of course, an adjustment of their budgets. Their budgets were approved and they may have surmised that they could proceed with an expansion of the programme,

whereas their budget only accommodated the existing level of programme.

Mr. S. Smith: I have a brief supplementary. This question was asked last week. Has the minister yet found out why it is that the monthly salary money has not been received by some of these workshops, in particular the one in Alexandria, which I drew to his attention last week? Does he have an answer on that yet?

Hon. Mr. Taylor: Again, with the individual workshops -- and I believe we have 138 in Ontario -- it’s difficult to deal with those in the question period other than the individual one. May I say that what we have done, and again I ensured this, was to accommodate the operation of workshops and other programmes to providing regular monthly payments as opposed to payment upon submission of claims. I thought that would ensure an orderly cash flow and assist the operation of these programmes.

Mr. Gaunt: Supplementary: Is the minister aware that the delays apply not only to workshops in operation in asking for increases but they also apply to new workshops -- specifically I can give the minister one, the new workshop in Wingham, where the delay was over a year -- and is the minister prepared to take a look at the procedures in respect to the rehabilitation branch in his ministry to see whether it couldn’t be streamlined, because even the regional people are getting discouraged?

Hon. Mr. Taylor: May I say that not only was I prepared to take a look but I did, in fact, take a look and have streamlined the internal operation that was actually divided between the two parts of the ministry, the part dealing with the developmental side, that is the side pertaining to mental retardation, as opposed to the other resources. We have combined that now and I think members will see much better progress in terms of tying these programmes together and expediting the clearance or approvals of them. I want the member to know I’m most mindful of the problem that did exist and I think we’ve resolved that now.

Mr. McClellan: Do I understand the minister to say, or is my understanding correct, that at least in some of these cases, for example, Owen Sound, the budget was cleared by ministry officials at the local level who gave approval but not by the ministry here in Toronto? If that is the case, what is happening within his ministry to cause this kind of confusion between the local office and guidelines coming from the centre?

Hon. Mr. Taylor: No, I hope the member did not understand me to say that because I hadn’t said that.

CULTURAL AGENCIES’ BUDGETS

Mr. Lewis: I just want to ask one brief question of the Minister of Culture and Recreation, speaking to his philistinism. May I ask the minister why he’s taking such a particularly hard line towards a number of specific cultural agencies, quite apart from the 95 per cent level which I’m sure he can explain to the House, in subtracting what they are able to elicit from the public from what the government will give them? That’s an unusual policy. What brought the minister to that?

Hon. Mr. Welch: I’m very pleased that the Leader of the Opposition has raised this question because it provides me with an opportunity to correct some misunderstanding which the story writer obviously shares.

Mr. Singer: I happen to have 10 pages here.

Hon. Mr. Welch: Actually, it’s not unusual at this particular time of year that we would be discussing the next fiscal year. We’re going through the budgetary process and we’ve invited our agencies to share in this particular consideration by submitting their requests to us in a certain form. We’re particularly interested in their revenues as well as their requests with respect to overall spending.

I think the story, particularly as it relates to private donations, is misunderstood because some of these agencies are supported partially from the private sector for specific projects and wouldn’t be interfered with in any way. We are interested only as they would relate to general operating expenses and, therefore, we wanted a breakdown with respect to other sources of revenue in this way.

Under the circumstances, I feel it’s very misleading to suggest the minister has either been hard or unreasonable because all that’s going on at the moment is the budgetary review in order that I might have the information I need with respect to their priorities when it comes time to present my budget for the consideration of my colleagues.

Mr. Singer: Supplementary: I wonder if the minister could advise us if it is in fact correct, as the newspaper

article suggested, that in his talks with various agencies -- the gallery, the museum, Science Centre and so on -- he cautioned them that these talks, or the five per cent deduction, should not be made public? Is that in fact correct?

Hon. Mr. Welch: Certainly near the end of the meeting, I shared with the agencies that it would be difficult if they were to do their job properly if they did not fully disclose the results of our meeting with their respective boards; that if there was to be any publicity given to this it would be very important that all the facts and figures, all the information, be shared and that might be difficult at this stage.

I even went so far as to suggest that if they weren’t careful with respect to the information that was being given to them, they might well expect within a few days to see headlines saying: “Welch has cut budgets five per cent.”

Mr. Breithaupt: And that is what they got.

Hon. Mr. Welch: Interestingly enough, that’s exactly what happened. I think that’s very unfortunate.

Mr. Foulds: Supplementary: In order to clear up this unfortunate situation, would the minister be prepared to table in the House the letters that he has subsequently sent out to the agencies as a result of his meeting and that are referred to in the article?

Hon. Mr. Welch: Inasmuch as the partial contents of these letters have now been made public, there’d be every reason to table the letter which I made available to the chairman of each agency at the conclusion of that meeting. I’d be very glad to do that.

OHTB BUS LICENCE

Mr. S. Smith: A question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications: Is the minister aware and can he explain why it is that in 1961 the Ontario Highway Transport Board ruled against Greyhound’s application to overrun the area that’s covered by Gray Coach Lines and listed as part of their reason for ruling against it: “The board accepts the evidence that it feels the profitability of the operation of Gray Coach between Toronto and Sudbury would be adversely affected if this application were granted?” What has happened since 1961 and why should there be such a fundamental change now?

[2:30]

Hon. Mr. Snow: As the Premier has just stated, 15 years have gone by since 1961.

Mr. S. Smith: He obviously didn’t take his math under the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells).

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s the old math.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I’m not aware of the full background of any decision made in 1961. I’m not saying that after considering an application at that particular time that may -- I accept the fact that that probably was the decision of the board at that time.

Mr. Warner: You didn’t have Eddie Goodman for a lawyer then either.

Hon. Mr. Davis: He is not writing editorials.

Hon. Mr. Snow: A lot of things have happened in public transportation since 1961. A lot of applications have been made to the Highway Transport Board, both in the trucking industry and the bus industry. What may have been a very valid point in 1961 I don’t think would necessarily be as valid or more valid in 1976.

Mr. S. Smith: By way of supplementary: Given that this is a fundamental change from the franchising method of dealing with bus services up to now, why would the minister set up a select committee to look into regulated trucking and the licensing thereof yet allow one or two men -- which is all it was -- to make this decision which is a fundamental change in franchising operations in the province of Ontario?

Mr. Haggerty: Loss of jobs affected too.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I do not accept that it is a fundamental change. There is no way that I can see by which the members of the Highway Transport Board have made any change in policy.

Mr. S. Smith: Where else is there an overrun?

Mr. Reid: Come on.

Hon. Mr. Snow: They look at applications before the board based on the public need and necessity for service as they do in applications for licences for the hauling of goods or the transportation of passengers.

Mr. S. Smith: By way of supplementary --

Mr. Speaker: The member for York South with a supplementary.

Mr. MacDonald: May I ask the minister, is it or is it not government policy that a public transportation company such as Gray Coach should be able to make profits on one line in order to have the financial resources to extend lines into non-profitable areas in the province? If that is government policy, why does a quasi-judicial body like our Highway Transport Board not have to operate within the framework of that policy?

Mr. Warner: Right on.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I don’t think there is any policy which states that any bus company, whether it be Gray Coach or any --

Mr. Reid: Just say there isn’t any policy.

Hon. Mr. Snow: -- other operator, has to operate certain lines at a profit and other lines at a loss. There is no policy which says any company has to operate certain lines at a loss and subsidize them from other lines.

Mr. MacDonald: Supplementary --

Mr. Reid: Supplementary --

Mr. S. Smith: Supplementary --

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. We can’t pursue these points too far. We’re into a debate.

The member for Hamilton West, with a further supplementary on this.

Mr. S. Smith: Yes, that’s right. Since the minister answered my previous question by saying it doesn’t represent a change in policy to have another company overrunning a major route presently held by one company, can he please list for this House other major routes between major centres in the province of Ontario which are presently being overrun by another company on the same route? Clearly that’s a change in policy.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I don’t think that indicates a change in policy at all. I don’t believe there is --

Mr. Nixon: It certainly does.

Mr. Reid: You have destroyed the whole concept of franchises.

Hon. B. Stephenson: When did Gray Coach have a franchise?

Mr. S. Smith: We are for Gray Coach.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I have trouble in comprehending the position of the Liberal Party in this particular case. We have discussed trucking and when one looks at the recommendations of the select committee and one looks at the points made by members of the Liberal Party in previous debates in this House, from what I have seen, they have been totally in support of having more competition in the industry.

Mr. Cunningham: With common sense.

Hon. Mr. Snow: Now, in this particular case, they are against competition all of a sudden.

Mr. S. Smith: It is a change in policy.

Mr. Speaker: A final supplementary. The member for Durham East.

Mr. Moffatt: Mr. Speaker, would the minister agree there is a difference between transportation of goods and transportation of people and that he cannot, in fact, make the two policies work exactly the same way for the two different areas?

Mr. Nixon: Not in his mind.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I think I would have to agree, certainly, that there is a difference in the two Acts --

Mr. Moffatt: For the two committee areas.

Hon. Mr. Snow: -- but I think the basic principle of the two Acts is supplying a proper service to the people of Ontario, whether it be for the transportation of passengers or the transportation of goods.

Gray Coach Lines has had the opportunity for many years to improve its service and to meet the needs of the travelling public over these particular routes if it had wished to do so. It has not done so, in the opinion of the board, as I read the decision, and the board has decided that with the increase in traffic there should be additional service on those routes.

Mr. S. Smith: I would like to ask a question of the Premier on this same topic. Does the Premier not agree that the effect of this Highway Transport Board decision, in addition to making fundamental policy which should be the role of the government, is substantially to give away a $10-million asset belonging to the public, giving it away to a private American-controlled giant? Does he not substantially agree that this is what is happening?

Hon. Mr. Davis: No, Mr. Speaker. I don’t want to disappoint the member for Hamilton West. There are some things about this that, if it comes to cabinet, we will be discussing and that I am interested in, but I would have to say to the hon. member for Hamilton West that I just do not agree with his supposition in this particular instance.

Mr. S. Smith: By way of supplementary, would the Premier not agree, from his considerable experience in the business world, that two lines which are producing approximately $800,000 in profit annually, should they substantially be unusable by Gray Coach after a year or so of this division of the number of passengers between themselves and Greyhound, given the fact that Greyhound can run express and Gray Coach is forced to run local, if that $800,000 is lost annually, would the Premier not say that’s equivalent to approximately an $8-million to $10-million asset that has been taken out of public hands and put in private hands, American-controlled?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, drawing on my considerable experience in the business community, my answer to that would be not necessarily so.

Mr. S. Smith: That’s why you won’t handle my account.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Well, it’s a silly question.

Mr. Foulds: Well, you didn’t have to give a silly answer.

Mr. Deans: It’s not really all that silly.

Mr. Lewis: Supplementary to the Premier: Is the Premier aware that Michael Warren, a man once much revered in the Conservative ranks --

Hon. Mr. Davis: Now, that’s not true.

Mr. Lewis: Was he not much revered?

Hon. Mr. Davis: He was a public servant.

Mr. Lewis: That’s what I mean, much revered.

Hon. Mr. Davis: By yourselves as well.

Mr. Lewis: By everybody, but by you as well. My apologies.

Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. member have a question?

Mr. Lewis: Michael Warren, a man who had an ambivalent position in the ranks of government but is now heading the TTC -- is the Premier aware that Mr. Warren has said the duplication of routes granted by the transport board to Greyhound will result in the necessary curtailment of rural routes and other routes by Gray Coach? He even named them; he said places like Owen Sound --

Mr. S. Smith: And Shelburne, Wiarton.

Mr. Lewis: -- and Alliston and so on -- in western Ontario, and that, therefore, what we have effectively done is to skewer the excellent service to certain areas of Ontario provided by Gray Coach. Can the Premier not allow for a cabinet rehearing from Gray Coach and the union and the TTC before there is any discussion?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I certainly am not going to debate the view of the head of the TTC at this moment. As regards an observation by Mr. Warren that, because of a certain situation on two runs, Gray Coach is going to reduce its service on other runs -- with great respect to Mr. Warren, I don’t believe that necessarily has to be the case.

Mr. Warner: Give them further subsidy.

Mr. Reid: You don’t know the economics of the situation.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Listen, I confess to a vested interest in this. Gray Coach comes right by my door and I am very interested --

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Ask the member for London South (Mr. Ferris).

Hon. Mr. Davis: So does the GO service.

I mean a lot of people go right by -- a lot of them drop in too. Gray Coach doesn’t, although it stops right across the road.

Mr. Warner: Does the Greyhound stop?

Hon. Mr. Davis: My mother uses it fairly regularly, so there is no way that I want to see Gray Coach service reduced. But I do say -- and I say this without being facetious at all -- that I understand observations of that kind in the heat of the debate that is going on. I think it is understandable that when any company, whether it’s a public company, whether it’s transportation of people or merchandise, when they see competition facing them, they’re going to try to draw the bleakest picture. This is human nature.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: This is obviously part of the approach of some people on this issue. I just say to the Leader of the Opposition, despite the implication that Gray Coach will have to reduce their service to other parts of the community because they may be faced with competition on two particular runs, I say with respect this does not have to happen.

Mr. Reid: They are the only one. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. May I just point out we’re branching out into all sections of this whole area.

Mr. Reid: This is right on.

Mr. Speaker: No. Order, please. The hon. leader’s question had to do with the effect of the decision in changing the ownership and the interest from Canadian to US; that was the basic part of it at least. We’re getting into the whole question of the whole transaction and we should keep it much narrower. I’ll hear the member for Rainy River.

Mr. Reid: Thank you, Mr. Speaker -- I don’t know how I’m going to work this in.

Mr. Speaker: You promised it was right on.

Mr. Reid: But I’m following my leader’s question. Would the Premier not agree it’s a responsibility of the cabinet and the government to set government policy in regard to transportation in the province of Ontario, rather than an appointed Highway Transport Board?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I think it’s the responsibility of government to do many things --

An hon. member: Do something.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- and one of the responsibilities of the government is to see that the consumer interest, the rights of people, whether they want to be transported by bus, train, automobile or what have you --

Mr. Reid: Who sets the policy?

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- are as adequately looked after as possible. I don’t argue that for a moment. That is part of our responsibility and we discharge it, I think, relatively well.

Mr. Reid: Who sets the policy?

Hon. Mr. Davis: If what the member really is saying to me is that the policy should be -- as he or his leader would like to have it, but not the member for London Centre (Mr. Peterson) -- that there be a total monopoly for some situations --

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- and that’s really what they are suggesting -- and that never any consideration be given for competition, whether it be for the transportation of goods or people, once again, I would have to say that I don’t think that should be a policy.

Mr. Reid: Have you so directed the transport board?

Mr. Conway: You are out of order and you know it.

Hon. Mr. Davis: If you are saying there should be a total monopoly in perpetuity.

Mr. Reid: I am not saying that. I’m just asking who is running the thing.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Oh, but that is what the member is saying. That’s what the member is saying and I’m saying I think that would be an erroneous policy.

Mr. Speaker: Order please. I think there is a new question. The member for Hamilton West.

Mr. S. Smith: A new question on the same topic to the Premier: Since he regards as silly my previous question pointing out that the threatened loss of an $800,000 annual income is equivalent to the loss of a $10-million asset and since he just said that my policy was to keep franchising --

Mr. Speaker: Your question, please?

Mr. S. Smith: -- as a reasonable policy, is also silly, would the Premier like to comment on this memorandum from the Treasurer (Mr. McKeough) to the Minister of Transportation and Communications in which he points out that “bus services have always been controlled to maximize benefit to the public”? He goes on to say: “The reference to free enterprise has bothered a number of present bus line owners, and I can appreciate their view.” The Premier knows that this has been the policy in this province --

Mr. Speaker: Is this part of the question?

Mr. S. Smith: -- why is it changing and why is it not the government or a select committee that’s doing the changing?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, with great respect, as the Minister of Transportation and Communications has explained, it does not represent a change in policy.

Mr. Reid: It does.

Mr. S. Smith: The Treasurer thinks it does.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The member for Hamilton West has every right to question the judgement of the Ontario Highway Transport Board; that’s fair. But I have to say to him, with respect, I know of no policy that has been laid down by this government that says that John Jones, Henry Smith or Mr. Lewis cannot apply to the Ontario Highway Transport Board for a right to carry passengers or goods and services as long as they comply with the Act. So for heaven’s sake understand what the Act provides. Now if you want to dispute --

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Reid: Can you name one other that’s been granted?

Mr. S. Smith: There have never been overruns before.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: With great respect, there are many instances where franchises and licences have been issued --

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Listen, we have overruns in railway transportation.

Mr. S. Smith: It’s not those we are talking about.

Hon. Mr. Davis: All right, but listen: There are other boards who grant, shall we say, rights to transport passengers by rail. There have been overruns. In other words, we have two national railways, believe it or not, in this country, and some of them carry passengers through the same community.

Mr. Nixon: That’s weak.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would just say to the leader of the Liberal Party that I know he would like to provoke me into some, shall we say, definitive statement, and I’ve explained to him --

Interjections.

Mr. Reid: That would be a change in policy.

[2:45]

Hon. Mr. Davis: I just say to the member for Hamilton West, don’t ask me the time of day. He knows how long that would take me to answer.

But I just have to tell him, as I have tried to explain to the members of this House -- and I ask him to seek a little advice from the member for Wilson Heights and the member for Kitchener who are always so careful to look after the legal niceties and the appropriateness or otherwise of making decisions, pending appeals -- for me to comment in any specific nature as to this particular situation until it is dealt with by cabinet, if it reaches cabinet, would be totally inappropriate.

I have got to say to the member for Hamilton West, in that he was sort of suggesting that somebody had been in touch with the chairman or members of the board as it relates to this decision, we don’t believe that that’s an appropriate way of doing business either.

Mr. Nixon: Of course he didn’t make any such suggestion.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. May I point out that there have been 15 minutes of each of the lead-off set of questions and 30 minutes have now expired? Are there further questions?

PICKERING NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION

Mr. S. Smith: I have one more question please, Mr. Speaker.

A question for the Minister of Energy: In view of the comments quoted from a book, Nuclear Energy: The Unforgiving Technology, quoted in today’s Globe and Mail, could he tell us whether there is a secret document called the Pickering Safety Report and whether that particular document does indicate, as suggested here, that during periodic clean-up of Pickering boiler room concentrations of radioactivity as high as 200 times the maximum permissible were detected and that concentrations higher than maximum permissibles were traced up to two miles away from the reactor? Is that true?

Is there such a report and would the minister please table it if it does exist?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I haven’t had a chance to read that

article so I am not familiar with the

section quoted by the member for Hamilton West. If he will afford me the opportunity to look into that, I will report back.

WINTARIO

Ms. Bryden: I have a question for the Minister of Culture and Recreation relating to what appears to be an unannounced change in policy on equipment grants to the minor leagues which provide team sports for many Ontario youngsters. In recent years these teams received a number of items of equipment free from the office of the athletic commissioner but this year they were informed, I understand, that the budget for that office no longer existed and they were referred to Wintario. Up until October --

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I think the member can ask the question right away.

Ms. Bryden: I have to give the background, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Very briefly.

Ms. Bryden: Up until October, I understand that the teams were receiving equipment or the cash equivalent on somewhat the same basis as they used to get from the office of the athletic commissioner.

Mr. Reid: Is this a statement?

An hon. member: She’s coming to it. Just wait.

Ms. Bryden: But since October 1, I understand they have been told they must provide 50 per cent of the retail value of this equipment. Can the minister tell me, is this correct and, if so, how does he justify this change in policy to these leagues which have additional costs for ice time and everything else, while now he is asking them to put up 50 per cent for the equipment they used to get free?

Hon. Mr. Welch: There are two points to be covered here. The equipment allocations from the office of the athletic commissioner were fairly nominal insofar as the number of items that were sent forward. Thanks to Wintario we have been able to enrich that programme and, notwithstanding the sharing principle, provide far more for the teams than was originally the case. The programme has been modified further. Instead of actually sending out the equipment, we sent out the cash equivalent so that teams can make these purchases in their home areas, which I think is fairer to the retailers in those areas.

Ms. Bryden: I wonder if the minister could provide us with lists showing what equipment teams used to get under the old scheme and what they are getting now, because I understand from a great many of them that they are actually getting less.

Hon. Mr. Welch: That’s a very reasonable question and I would be prepared to provide some comparisons.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Our teams are getting lots of lacrosse sticks.

Mr. Lewis: Everything comes to Brampton.

AIR POLLUTION AT NIAGARA FALLS

Mr. Kerrio: In the absence of the Minister of the Environment, I’d like to direct this question to the Premier.

Is the Premier aware that an iron oxide fallout from the Niagara Metals plant which has been experienced in the Niagara Falls area has led the company’s insurance representatives to attempt to get the residents in the area to sign releases from damages which may arise from this fallout? I wonder if the Premier would discuss this with his minister and find out if such is the case?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I will be delighted to discuss this, at the request of the member for Niagara Falls, with the Minister of the Environment. It may be Wednesday before I am able to do so but I would be delighted and either he or I shall report to the House.

Mr. Kerrio: A supplementary, please. In the discussion the Premier has with him, there is one matter which seems to be rather urgent. Would he please ask the minister if there is any health danger associated with this fallout, and whether the minister will lay charges against this plant since a violation notice has been served?

Mr. Conway: It sounds like the Premier’s response.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, in my supplementary conversation with the minister I will raise the supplementary question.

Mr. Conway: Such generosity.

Mr. Swart: May I ask the Premier if he would also investigate the legality of forms which the company has asked area residents to sign which, for a small payment, would make the company harmless in any future action?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I don’t want to mislead the House. I don’t think I really said I would personally look after the two issues raised by the member for Niagara Falls. I think I agreed to discuss it with the minister and ask him to report to the House. I would say the same to the member for Welland-Thorold. I will raise that matter with the Minister of the Environment as part of the original question from the member for Niagara Falls.

Are there any other chores?

DRG GLOBE ENVELOPES LIMITED

Mr. Grande: My question is to the Minister of Labour. Is the minister aware of the working conditions at DRG Globe Envelopes on Queen Street? In the afternoon shift, between 4 p.m. and 12 a.m., the employees are allowed only a 10-minute break between 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. to eat their lunch. Further, when the machines are running, the employees have to find somebody else to replace them at the machines; if no one is found the employee does not eat. Is this not a clear violation of The Employment Standards Act?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware factually of the conditions in that plant and I will certainly investigate them. If we find they are in violation of The Employment Standards Act, they will be investigated and prosecutions will take place. At the present time I have no knowledge that those items as listed by the hon. member are factual.

PRICES AT HIGHWAY SERVICE CENTRES

Mr. Spence: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Is the minister aware that service centres along Highway 401, licensed and leased by the Ontario government, charge as much as $18 for less than an hour’s labour?

I have a letter and receipt to that effect which I will be glad to forward to the minister if he so wishes.

Hon. Mr. Snow: Mr. Speaker, I am not particularly aware of the particular service centre which may have charged $18 for an hour’s labour. I am not sure that we would have control over that particular aspect of the business.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That is more than we make.

Mr. Reid: Everybody makes more than we do.

Hon. Mr. Snow: I recall that last week I personally got an invoice from a service man, for less than one hour’s labour which cost me $24.

Mr. Cunningham: Did he know who you were?

Mr. Conway: That would make a small dent in your millions.

Mr. Spence: A supplementary: Will the minister have his officials look into this case in which a constituent was charged $18 for changing a tire and installing a new one?

Hon. Mr. Snow: If the hon. member will send me the information, we will certainly look into it.

DRUGS MAGAZINE

Mr. Swart: My question is to the Attorney General. He will realize it is more than four weeks since I first raised the issue of the drug-pushing magazine, High Times, and exactly four weeks since he said he would try to report to the House on it. Has he had the opportunity to do any investigation on this, has he had any discussion with the federal government, and can he report to the House today?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: This matter has been reviewed in some detail by my ministry. We have been in contact with the federal government, and I can assure the hon. member opposite that I will have a fairly significant statement to make before the end of the week. I prefer, in the public interest, not to say anything further at this time, but I will be reporting to the House before the end of the week.

Mr. Conway: Always significant.

Mr. Singer: Significant?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: That’s right, significant. Not that you’d know the difference.

Mr. Reid: It’s another headline.

COMMERCIAL FISHING REGULATIONS

Mr. C. I. Miller: I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. As he is aware, 12 of our fishermen in Port Dover were fined last week and have had their licences suspended because of the fact they were making an orderly attempt to prove the fish in Lung Point Bay were of a smaller size than they are in other portions of the lake. In that $40,000 was set aside to assist in this study, I wonder if the minister is aware that none of those fishermen has received any money to this point in time. I was of the understanding that they were to receive some payment.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: It was my understanding that these Port Dover fishermen would be used in our experiment to gather further data in that particular area. I will certainly check into it and report back to the hon. member directly.

Mr. C. I. Miller: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker: The question period has expired.

Petitions.

PETITION

Mr. Kerrio: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from 97 citizens of the Ramsey Road-McLeod Road area of Niagara Falls who are concerned about the objectionable emissions from Niagara Metals Limited.

Mr. Speaker: Presenting reports.

Motions.

MOTIONS

Hon. Mr. Welch moved that the supplementary estimates of the Office of the Assembly, the Ombudsman and the Provincial Auditor be referred to the miscellaneous estimates committee.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Mr. Welch moved that the time for the presentation of the final report of the select committee on highway safety be extended to April 29, 1977.

Mr. Speaker: Introduction of bills.

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. Lupusella moved first reading of Bill 182,

An Act to amend The Workmen’s Compensation Act.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Lupusella: This bill provides for a 10 per cent increase in the amount payable on award for a permanent disability as of December 1, 1976, and, as of the same date, the introduction of an annual increase in that award, based on the current consumer price index for Canada.

Motion agreed to.

[3:00]

ANSWER TO WRITTEN QUESTION

Hon. Mr. Welch: I wish to table the answer to question 154 standing on the notice paper.

Mr. Speaker: Orders of the day.

HIGHWAY TRANSPORTATION OF GOODS

Consideration of the interim report of the select committee on highway transportation of goods.

Mr. Conway: Where is the member for Scarborough Centre (Mr. Drea)?

Mr. Gregory: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to be the leadoff speaker in the debate regarding the interim report of the select committee on the highway transportation of goods. This is a committee which, as you know, was struck in May and was charged with the duty of examining the entire transportation industry.

This is an industry of which there has not been a major review in over 40 years. I think it was certainly timely that at this time we are asked to do this job. We were given a mandate to review all aspects of trucking in Ontario. The select committee, of course, is an all-party committee without any one party having a clear majority and, of course, I think members of the opposition would agree with that structure.

The committee members, I believe, had a keen awareness of the responsibility to assess objectively the state of the industry. Of course, the committee members co-operated in pursuing this task. It is my opinion, as the chairman of that committee, that the members of the select committee on highway transportation have been admirably committed to this task. I believe the unanimous agreement arrived at by the members reflects the lengths to which we went to avoid any kind of party differences, differences in philosophy.

Our object was to gather evidence from all segments of industry to protect the interests of the truckers and the shippers and the public at large. We received 250 written submissions and heard 200 delegations. We made ourselves available for hearings in 17 areas in Ontario. In addition to that, through an efficient use of the members’ time, we were able to send delegations to Washington, Tennessee, Michigan, Ohio, Britain, Germany and Belgium. The trip to Europe was certainly a beneficial trip.

Mr. Conway: To be sure.

Mr. Gregory: There was an extensive report written. This was under the able chairmanship of the member for Nipissing (Mr. R. S. Smith) -- I am sorry he isn’t here today. Certainly the report is quite extensive and the benefit of that will appear when we submit our final report, hopefully at the end of February.

I might add that this has been accomplished not only on time and with the unanimous agreement of the members but within the budgetary limits. I think the committee members can take some pride in this. I would suggest that perhaps some other members in this House might take the co-operative working of this committee as an example.

An hon. member: Wait until the second report comes in.

Mr. Gregory: We have had some reaction from industry as a result of this interim report to this point. I had the pleasure of addressing the 50th meeting of the Ontario Trucking Association last month. There has been a very clear response by organized truckers to our efforts.

The industry itself is now mobilized in reaction to the Legislature’s sudden interest in trucking. They felt they had been ignored for far too long -- after all 40 years is a great deal of time without having had major policy statements and changes in regard to the trucking industry except for minor amendments.

What is very pleasing is that the Ontario Trucking Association is very willing to cooperate and accepts the fact that our recommendations will not meet all of its demands.

The members recognize that there are going to be things they won’t be entirely happy with. They also recognize that they will have to make some concessions as well in order to make this work.

We had general approval from the Ontario truckers in regard to our intent to license all the truckers in Ontario. There has been a very positive response to this and to the workings of the committee, if I might just read from a circular that was received, I believe, by all the members of the Legislature. This is from the new president, Mr. C. M. Hendry, Ontario Trucking Association, and in his centre paragraph he comments:

“The thoroughness and impartiality shown by members of the select committee on highway transportation of goods and that on safety as well have been most commendable. We feel confident that all members of the Legislature will be willing to at least give due consideration to matters that we shall communicate to you from time to time.” I regard that as an endorsement of the reports of the two committees.

One major reservation that the trucking association seems to have is that the government will not properly enforce regulations. Therefore, I believe it is incumbent on the government to secure the co-operation of this important economic sector and to gain its trust by introducing regulations which are reasonable to all interested parties and which can be backed up by forceful and effective enforcement procedures.

Just to touch for a moment on some of the recommendations, Mr. Speaker, we began our study based on the following criteria in regard to the recommendations that we made:

First of all, the recommendations ought to lead to swift government action, the recommendations must be enforceable, and thirdly, the recommendations must be reasonable.

I think it important that any recommendations that we make must be enforceable. The law books are full of laws that can’t be enforced. I think one of the problems, and a major problem in the trucking industry today, is that with the system we have of weigh scales it is just not possible to properly enforce the trucking industry. I believe the trucking industry itself is asking us to do this and find ways that it can be done.

One of the major problems, of course, with the industry is because it’s so massive and so difficult to govern, there being some 11,000, almost 12,000, persons involved in the industry and 45,000 trucks. The truckers are not uniform in their organization. There are several organizations. The Ontario Trucking Association, even though it’s the largest, is not the only one. There are others. There’s a great number of unlicensed carriers, independents, and they’re operating under a wide range of corporate guises.

Some of these functions are in a grey area of legal activity. Others are operating completely outside the law but can’t be detected or prosecuted. Even here we had to recognize the fact that they are providing a service, and to eliminate that service would create a hardship for shippers and for some consumers.

I would like to touch on some of our recommendations. The first one, and perhaps the main one, is an attempt to bring all truckers under regulatory guidelines and the organized trucking associations, the licensed trucking associations, tend to agree with this, even though they recognize that it does present some problem to the industry itself. We’re recommending that the principle of control at entry be reaffirmed. We must maintain control of entry into the industry.

We must have a principle of economic control established so that the ministry has some control over the service, financial feasibility and safety of the trucking industry.

We recommend stiff penalties for violations of the law. The committee was of the opinion that minor penalties would not be sufficient to do the job that we wanted to be done.

One recommendation is to spread the legal responsibility to shippers as well as carriers, because in many instances the committee found in its hearings that the responsibility for -- and, in fact, perhaps the cause of -- some of the unlicensed trucking was the shippers themselves.

We feel it important that the role of the Ontario Highway Transport Board be strengthened. There are many recommendations that we have made in this regard, some of them to do with licensing that is no longer being used or advertised or offered to the public. These licensed vehicles should no longer be available.

We discussed at great length the problems of energy consumption and this, of course, led us to take steps to reduce movement of empty trucks. We hope to address ourselves in our final report more extensively to this particular subject, because it was a matter that was brought to our attention by many delegations, the opinion that energy is being wasted.

We are making a strong recommendation to the Ministry of Transportation and Communications to investigate reciprocity on both an interprovincial and international basis. We feel that we cannot ignore the fact that the consumer requires goods from other provinces and other countries as well as our own. We feel we have a major problem and I think the government should address itself to quality shipments of goods and to try and eliminate as much interference as possible between provinces and the United States.

We recommend that we clamp down on leasing companies and driver pools and they be put under certain restrictions and certain licensing procedures so that they can be better controlled.

Although our list of recommendations is not extensive, in our interim report we have raised enough issues to generate immediate legislative action in a number of areas. In our final report, which we have scheduled for completion by the end of February, 1977 -- and of course, if the committee is as efficient in the final report as it was in the interim report, we shall certainly hit that target -- it would be difficult to attempt to comment on any conclusions we might raise on the final report but we can indicate some of the things that we will be looking into.

First of all, a broader look at enforcement procedures, private carriage, driver pools, intermodal transportation, regional regulation of couriers -- we have already had hearings on this, of course -- and safety. It is the intention of our committee, and they have directed myself, as the chairman of the committee, to negotiate with the chairman of the highway safety committee, and of course, I’ve already made overtures to him on this, that we will want to co-operate on our final report and no doubt be will want to co-operate with us for his.

We certainly will be looking into the situation regarding bus licensing, and in view of the debate that went on in question period today, this is an area that certainly needs to be looked at.

Mr. Reid: We are going to look at it?

Mr. Gregory: We will be looking into busing. The member didn’t read the information he got.

Mr. Reid: Yes, I read it. I am just wondering when we are going to get time to do it.

Mr. Gregory: We’ll fit it in.

The committee felt that continuity was going to play a large

part in this report and any final report we bring forward. The unanimous approval of the committee suggests that the report could be implemented by any party in the House. As we all know, dissolution of the Legislature would lead to dissolution of the committee. We are most anxious that if this happened the work of the committee, and in fact the implementation of the reports, be completed.

In the unlikely happening that at a dissolution of this Legislature a new government was formed, the recommendation of our committee would be that the work be carried on despite that fact. Since we have had unanimity among the three parties on the committee I would suspect that this could happen.

[3:15]

Mr. Reid: Probably with a new chairman.

Mr. Gregory: There probably would be a new chairman at that point; I wonder who it will be.

In conclusion, we feel that the problems in the trucking industry have been sitting dormant as far as the government is concerned, and I’m not being critical, I’m saying it just hasn’t been looked at for a long, long time. I think it’s important for me to finish my statement by saying that these recommendations, in the opinion of the committee, should be acted on with haste in order to derive some of the benefit that can be derived from these recommendations.

Certainly we have, in my opinion, the total support of the trucking industry and, of course, I feel that we will be acting with these recommendations in the best interest of the public and they are, after all, number one.

I urge the Legislature to consider this well, in hopes that the recommendations of the committee can be implemented as quickly as possible.

Mr. Philip: It’s a pleasure to be able to speak on the interim report of the select committee on highway transportation of goods, Mr. Speaker. I have no doubt that since the minister is now in the House he will be following our recommendations and be interested in the report of this committee.

A lot of the success of our committee, I think, can be attributed to the tireless work of an outstanding staff. We couldn’t have asked for a more knowledgeable committee counsel than Mr. Max Rapoport. His skill at asking questions and his knowledge of the field were tremendous assets to our committee. We are appreciative of the fact that the ministry and the committee were able to benefit from this man’s knowledge and abilities.

Likewise, the contribution of Mr. Brian Caldwell, our research director. The bags that we sometimes noted under his eyes were entirely related to the fact that he stayed up all night finding data that we had requested and putting together summaries of briefs and so forth. One couldn’t have asked for a harder working staff person.

A person’s true worth is often discovered by his or her absence, and on those occasions when our secretary, Gayle Roberts, was absent, her absence was certainly felt. I have no doubt that when she graduates from university we in the NDP will be able to find a position somewhere for her.

Hon. J. R. Smith: Don’t count on it.

Mr. Reid: If she graduates she will have too much intelligence to take it.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: That’s very uncharitable, Pat.

Mr. Philip: David Callfas, the assistant clerk of the Legislative Assembly, took on the challenging responsibilities of scheduling and making all of our physical arrangements for the committee, and considering the heterogeneity of the members of the committee, that was no mean task. He certainly deserves our thanks.

Mr. Reid: That has nothing to do with sex, by the way.

Mr. Philip: The hon. member just realized I was talking about him.

The member for Mississauga East, our chairman, and the member for Nipissing, our vice-chairman, also deserve, I think, the appreciation of all members on the committee.

In the case of the member for Nipissing, I might add that those of us who were with him on our study sessions in Britain, Belgium and Germany could not help but feel that he conducted himself in a way that was a tribute to the province and that we certainly earned, by his actions, not only respect for the committee but also for the province of Ontario.

Last, but not least, a lot of credit for the excellent report must go to the many hours that the various individuals who made briefs to us used in preparing their briefs and in researching the briefs and presenting them to us. Of course without their kind of perspiration and inspiration we certainly wouldn’t have been able to present the kind of excellent consensus report that we in fact were able to present.

It’s well known that the members of our committee approached the problems from quite different perspectives. We in the NDP had always favoured the principle of proof of necessity and we felt that it was a safeguard not only of the trucking industry and its employees, but also the shippers and the consumer. Others of other political persuasions were less inclined in that direction.

However, the overwhelming view of the industry was that substantial de-regulation would eventually result in chaos and, therefore, a disservice to the community. The consensus of members of the committee was:

“We believe it is prudent to retain economic regulatory controls over the movement of goods on Ontario highways. To retain capability for that movement is an absolute necessity. To retain influence and control over the shape and nature of that movement is clearly in the public interest.”

The fact that this report represents a consensus of those who initially had had many different points of view is terribly important. It is an indication to the minister that all of us on this side of the House and on the government side of the House clearly want this report implemented as soon as possible.

The member for Mississauga East has called the attention of the minister to the position of the Ontario Trucking Association. In meeting with the delegates at their convention I am convinced that the delegates recognize that the kinds of solutions we are proposing in this interim report are workable solutions which need immediate attention.

It is important that the minister understand that the report must be implemented and we in the NDP will give him no peace until he has taken the kind of action necessary to implement the report. We saw how the Rapoport report on the dump truck industry led to heightened expectations among the truckers. We listened to the frustration in the voices of people like Mr. Angelo Natale, of the Ontario Haulers Association, as they told us how their expectations fell to frustration which eventually drifted into despair as the government did little on the report and it gathered dust.

Let me assure the minister that the members of the trucking industry and the members of the committee have invested too much time and energy in this report to allow it to gather the kind of dust that the Rapoport report on the dump truck industry was allowed to gather.

It’s a consensus report We expect him to consider our recommendations seriously and to act on them.

While I have mentioned the Ontario Haulers Association everywhere we went we met people from the dump truck industry, either members of that association or other associations in the aggregate business, or simply dump truck operators of no particular association affiliation. The operators of these vehicles impressed on the committee time and again the need for implementation of the new Ontario R licence classification and the withdrawal of the regional designations together with -- everywhere we got the same thing -- a two-year or longer moratorium on the issuance of licences.

In a very short time the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Snow) will be receiving our final report. I expect this report will contain some very concrete and specific recommendations on alleviating what can only be described as a crisis situation in the dump truck industry. The small entrepreneurs who are involved in this industry are in desperate straits and we in this party feel that urgent action will be needed to improve the situation in the aggregate industry. We expect that the minister will move much faster on the recommendations concerning the aggregate industry in our final report than his government managed to move on the Rapoport report.

Another area of concern to members of this committee is the recommendation considering the North Bay restriction. I had expected the hon. member for Nipissing would be here and that he would be addressing himself to that question in a very concrete and specific way. Those of us who are members of the committee are most anxious to hear his views on that. I expect he will be fairly specific in his views on it and that the minister and members of this House will be interested in what he has to say.

Testimony has been given concerning regulation versus de-regulation. The interesting impression is often being left in the media and with the committee that Great Britain somehow de-regulated and that very little of any consequence happened as the result of de-regulation.

Those of us who travelled to Great Britain and were able to study the trucking industry at a grass roots level, realized that

whereas there may in fact have been de-regulation on paper, there really is no de-regulation of trucking in Britain. What has happened is that the real regulation is conducted by the trade union movement, which is an awful lot stronger than it is here. So to compare Britain’s de-regulation as having some kind of consequence to those of us in Ontario is like comparing alligators and oranges. It just doesn’t make any sense.

By the same token those who advocate the laissez-faire system of transportation in the trucking industry talk with horror about what has happened in Germany. While I would be the first to admit in Ontario the biases of regulation practised in Germany just wouldn’t work -- we just don’t have the kind of rail system that the Germans have -- I couldn’t help but be impressed by the vitality and the efficiency of the trucking industry in Germany.

Our committee has been very concerned about the issues of energy conservation. After extensive hearings and study the committee does not feel that entry control per se is a limiting factor to energy conservation. Our report indicates that need for the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, in conjunction with the industry, to provide more significant data.

We in this party recognize and appreciate the efforts already undertaken by organizations such as the Ontario Trucking Association in developing methods of fuel conservation. We feel that proper encouragement of and co-operation between the government and bodies such as the Ontario Trucking Association and other bodies in the industry will produce substantial savings in energy. We also recognize that only a profitable trucking industry can in fact promote the kind of energy conservation we need in this province. De-regulation, I feel, would in fact be energy costly, rather than energy saving.

I was proud to be a member of this committee. I look forward to seeing this government implement its recommendations.

Mr. Reid: I too would like to underline and emphasize some of the remarks made by my colleague on the committee, particularly in regard to the hard-working staff we were blessed with on the committee. I’ve been on a number of select committees and other committees of the Legislature and it certainly makes a difference when you have knowledgeable people to work with in your deliberations and who are able to ask the questions and have the background information when required.

This has been an interesting exercise in the parliamentary system in the province of Ontario.

Mr. Moffatt: It’s minority government.

Mr. Reid: Bill 4, which was introduced, focused on transportation problems on the highways in the province of Ontario and, of course, was the reason for the select committee being set up. It’s an interesting philosophical approach and perhaps I might be allowed a little latitude in discussing it. There may be some objections to what I say, but that’s not an abnormality.

It’s interesting that the government, in introducing Bill 4, was responding to the large trucking concerns in the province of Ontario. We might call them large business. The NDP supported the bill, because the Teamsters Union --

Mr. Moffatt: That’s malarkey.

Mr. Reid: You can disagree.

Mr. Moffatt: You read the Hansard of the other day.

Mr. Reid: -- were supporting the bill for reasons of their own. The Liberal Party, trying to represent the small individual person in the province, opposed the passing of Bill 4 and I think we put some very excellent reasons why we should. Some reasons were philosophical and others were put because we felt this committee was necessary to look into the whole matter of truck transportation in the province of Ontario.

While initially I think the OTA, for instance, and others, were somewhat upset about the fact that Bill 4 did not get passed at that time, I think they and others will agree that the deliberations of the committee and the recommendations we have made, which hopefully will be translated into legislation, are to the benefit of the people of the province as a whole.

[3:30]

I want to say a couple of other things about the select committee process itself, and I will be very brief. As members of the committee, or the committee as a whole hearing testimony, for want of a better word -- which was not under oath, I might point out -- we were given certain facts, figures and conclusions from people who appeared before us as to the vitality or the rules and regulations of the trucking business in other parts of the world, particularly Britain and the Common Market area. We were told they had had such a system in regard to de-regulation, as my friend has just commented earlier. Quite frankly, I found that 90 per cent of some of that information was wholly false.

While we as a committee could not always compare the British system or the German system or the Common Market system and relate it directly to Canada, the part that struck me was that the information we had been given, supposedly by expert witnesses, was not correct or was misleading. I am not saying, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I am sure you are sensitive on the point, that they deliberately misled the committee; but it was interesting to have the committee or some members of the committee go and see for themselves.

While I am not trying to defend committee travel, I think it’s particularly important that members of a committee become aware, through their own first-hand knowledge, of just what’s going on and not rely on government experts or industry experts or other experts outside of government for all their information, because they have their own biases and distortions from the positions in which they sit in regard to the information they are providing.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, mainly because it’s you in the chair, I want to relate a little incident that happened, actually, when the committee was in Brussels.

Hon. Mr. Snow: That should be interesting,

Hon. Mr. Bernier: How long were you there?

Mr. Reid: Not that one, but you would be interested in this one too. One of the staff members and I had made our usual night visit to the church for contemplation and meditation. Afterwards, about 11 o’clock, we were sitting in the square in Brussels just having a coffee and feeding the birds.

An. hon. member: Feeding the pigeons.

Mr. Reid: The Minister of Natural Resources will be particularly interested in this. As we were sitting there contemplating nature and other things, standing beside me looking into a store window was a young lady who was wearing a T-shirt with Wabigoon, Ontario, on it. Wabigoon is in my riding and formerly was in the riding of the Minister of Natural Resources.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Our people get around.

Mr. Reid: They sure do. In any case, there she was with a cousin and they had been travelling around Europe. She said, having seen some of the things in Europe and in Asia, that she would come back to Canada and the province of Ontario and appreciate much better how well off we were in this province.

Hon. J. R. Smith: Especially the government.

Mr. Reid: Except she said it would be much better with a Liberal government. I remember her distinctly saying that.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Did she know who her member was?

Mr. Reid: Yes, she did. She kept calling me Leo for some reason, but other than that it was all right.

Mr. Drea: I wonder why.

Mr. Reid: The interim report deals primarily, as I see it, with three items. The recommendations fall generally into dealing with leasing, dormant licences and reciprocity.

I must admit to you, and to the chairman, that I find our recommendations on leasing not quite as specific and as clarified as they might be. We dealt with this problem, we spent a lot of time on this particular problem. As I pointed out, this was probably what led to the formation of the committee in the first place.

I am sure the minister and his officials have had time to go over the suggestion of the committee or the recommendation of the committee that we grandfather these people who have been doing trip leasing to make them a part of the regulated trucking industry.

The report does not make a recommendation as to exactly how the minister is going to do that, whether he is going to create another class of licence or so on; hopefully we will deal with that in our final report.

But I think this is something -- and this is a problem with government always; what bothers people more than anything else is the insecurity of not knowing where they stand -- that has to be dealt with in a fairly quick fashion so that those people who are out there in that grey area know just what guidelines they are going to have to follow, if any -- whatever decision the minister makes -- and that the regulated trucking industry, as represented by the OTA and others, also know where they are going to stand and whether or not they should be applying for some kind of licences in regard to this kind of leasing.

That’s one thing.

The dormant licences also bother me, because I don’t think we have been accurate enough in pinpointing exactly what we mean by a dormant licence. The PCV licence requires public necessity and convenience. If that licence is not being used, for whatever reason -- because there has been a merger, an overrun or whatever -- then it seems to me the raison d’être for that licence in the first place is therefore not valid. If there is no request for public need and convenience for that licence, then perhaps these dormant licences should revert automatically to the OHTB after a certain period of time. I realize that is an oversimplification and that, as we found out in everything we got into --

Hon. Mr. Snow: Are you saying Gray Coach is a dormant licence?

Mr. Reid: It is going to be dormant. I’ll make the minister a wager that within a year, or two years at the most, Gray Coach will not be operating on those runs because they --

Hon. Mr. Snow: They have got a lot of dormant ones now.

Mr. Reid: Then they should be forced to give them up if they are not --

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I don’t think that is part of the select committee report.

Mr. Reid: We are going to get into that anyway. In any case, I would urge that these dormant licences be looked at very carefully. I am sure we will be reviewing these matters in our final report.

The other one the minister is able to implement immediately, if not sooner, is our recommendations on reciprocity. I would say the urgency is probably with the province of Quebec, let alone our neighbours to the south. But the interim recommendation is that the ministry set up a division within the ministry to deal completely with reciprocity with our sister provinces and with these various states in the United States.

This is a matter that almost everyone complained to us about. It is something on which, for some reason -- and I can appreciate some of the reasons -- the ministry has been dragging its feet over the years, and little, if any, success seems to have come forth in regard to this. Admittedly it is a fantastically complex business, but it seems to me the minister must have someone within his ministry devoting full time to dealing with this particular matter. You might be dealing with the international registration plan and other things.

I might add, when I say that, that it seems to me in a ministry of this size that the minister can find staff who can deal with this without hiring more people. But that is an aside.

If I could urge the minister to take any immediate action on the report, this is the one area in particular where it is needed. As we know, this involves long and complicated negotiations between the provinces and between the various states. It is not going to be solved overnight, but we are already years behind and the sooner we get at it the better.

I want to touch on two things briefly. One is that in all of the hearings, and during our travelling around the province, I always felt one item was missing. Very few people addressed themselves to the question: Is the consumer getting a good deal from the highway transportation of goods in this province? Is the ultimate consumer being ripped off for transportation costs? Is he getting a fair break, or maybe he’s being over-subsidized?

We could never come to grips with that particular problem, nor, in all the submissions and briefs we heard, did we ever hear anyone -- I think maybe there was one, but if there was it was a very minor submission to the select committee -- saying on behalf of the consumer, “Look, we are not getting a fair deal on this.”

We tried at some points to actually arrive at the rate setting of the trucking industry, and we discussed rate bureaus and we had submissions on that end of it. But we found it impossible to relate the cost of that component called transportation to the final cost of the goods in a store or delivered.

I want to say a word about rate bureaus, because in my humble and non-legalistic opinion this is one area where something has to be cleared up. The trucking industry, generally, is for regulation of people getting in and out of the industry. It seems to me that they should also be for some kind of regulation of rates. It appears to me that they could be charged under the anti-combines act, and in fact we’ve heard rumours that perhaps they’re looking at this.

Many of the shippers made no attempt at concealing the fact that they got together, set the rates, sent them to the tariff bureau; the tariff bureau duly listed them, put them in the right columns, the right figures; they were duly sent to the OHTB, which gave 30 days’ notice and then routinely had them in the Ontario Gazette and they became, in fact, the rates that were then charged.

In the Ministry of Transportation and Communications’ own study on truck transportation in the province of Ontario, phase 3, an analysis of the basic rate structure, they deal in that particular text with the LTL rates particularly. While I won’t go through all of them, it’s obvious that, particularly in LTL rates -- less-than-truckload rates -- Ontario people are paying a much higher cost than they are in almost all other jurisdictions. There are all kinds of reasons for this.

There is some indication that truckload lots, particularly for commodities, perhaps are lower than they are in other provinces, that the LTL rates are cross-subsidizing the TL rates and so on; but we don’t really have any hard information that we can hang our hat on.

It does seem to me that, ultimately, if the truckers want a regulated trucking system as to who gets in and who gets out, then they are also going to have to accept at some stage of the game justifying their rates before a tribunal or before the OHTB. I don’t say that idly, Mr. Speaker, because I realize the experience in other jurisdictions, the kind of fantastic bureaucratic problems that can arise; but it seems to me there has to be some kind of mechanism set up to ensure that the people of the province of Ontario are not paying unduly for the transportation system that they have in the province of Ontario.

The second thing I want to talk about is the role of the Ontario Highway Transport Board itself. In the hearings, the committee went to the board and we saw how they functioned, we heard submissions from various people on the way the board operated and so on. I was always under the impression, until just recently, that the OHTB, while it was an independent manifestation of the government, and autonomous from the government, that the province of Ontario, through the cabinet and through the Minister of Transportation and Communications, was setting policy for transportation in the province of Ontario.

That had always been my understanding, and that within the broad guidelines as handed down by the minister, the OHTB carried out its functions.

[3:45]

While this is not in the report it still is a concern of mine and I hope the minister can clarify it. I refer to the recent Gray Coach business, which to my mind is a policy departure from what occurred at the board formerly. In question period today in the House and previously the minister has not clarified, to my satisfaction at least, how the OHTB fits into the scheme of things. I thought I was clear in --

Mr. Philip: He has come down squarely on both sides.

Mr. Reid: -- my own mind on how the OHTB --

Mr. Moffatt: That is a terrible one.

Mr. Reid: -- operated within the general guidelines of transportation policy in the province. The minister contends that the decision in regard to Gray Coach and Greyhound was not a departure from previous policy.

If it is a simple matter of

interpretation between us that’s one thing, but I say that was a fundamental change in policy and it was made by the Ontario Highway Transport Board not, as I understand it, at any suggestion or recommendation or policy statement by the minister. I hope he can clear that up. I don’t think it’s a function of the Ontario Highway Transport Board to make policy for transportation on highways in the province of Ontario.

Having said all that, I look forward to the final report of the committee. I think, quite frankly, that the matter is so complex, so mobile -- if I may use that without intending a pun -- that even the select committee, which had some of the best members of the Legislature on it --

Hon. Mr. Snow: Don’t mislead the House now.

Mr. Reid: -- has found that it has only scratched the surface.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: You might have said fluid.

Mr. Reid: Well, that too. It has only scratched the surface of the complexity of truck transportation in the province of Ontario. With that degree of humbleness, I think we do urge in any case that the minister act quickly on some of these recommendations.

Mr. Drea: The interim report of the select committee, in my point of view, demonstrates two things in conjunction with the highway transportation of goods in this province.

One is that for the first time there will be a policy on the movement of goods. I think in one of his appearances before us the minister pointed out that one of the difficulties in the present administration of the Acts has been that those Acts and the amendments to them have come over the years in response to particular situations, to particular problems and, latterly, in the light of changing technology in the transportation field.

As a matter of fact, from the very beginning of provincial licensing of highway movements, whether of people or goods, the only reason the province appeared on the scene is that the federal government showed absolutely no interest. It became a problem on the highways not only in terms of safety but also in terms of competition.

An aspect of that is that the North Bay restriction, which this committee is suggesting be removed, at least as a permanent thing, was put forward in the 1930s, in the Depression era, for the plain and simple purpose of bolstering the revenues of the Ontario Northland Railway.

In the 1960s, because the Ontario Northland Railway ventured into the direct trucking field through the purchase of an existing licence, that policy somehow became not to enhance the railway revenues of the Ontario Northland, but to leave the trucking arm of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission in a very competitive, and quite frankly a very protected, environment.

That, I suggest, is only one aspect of how a general overall lack of policy has in many ways contributed to some of the intense economic difficulties that have faced the trucking firms, particularly the highway trucking firms, in this province in the last five or six years.

Secondly, this report seems to me to be not just a vindication of the minister on Bill 4, but as a matter of fact establishes the minister in his policy of meeting the particular problem of the pseudo lease and the trip leases that were being used to flout the existing and traditional highway route licensing procedures of this province.

As a matter of fact, I think it establishes the minister and his ministry in the forefront of being able to cope with a particular problem -- which, by the time he inherited it, was of such magnitude that at a very conservative estimate if the licensing procedures put forward in this report are carried out by the Ontario Highway Transport Board, we are looking at somewhere in the vicinity of 752 new over-the-road licences. That is just an indication of how many operators there were. And bear in mind that we have put forward very substantial and significant criteria.

We are talking about a prolonged period of operation under these dubious leases -- a steady trade of business either with one shipper or to a specific number of customers at the other end.

In fact, if you really want to break it down, what we are saying is that you were really not only successful but extremely stable in business, notwithstanding the fact you were circumventing the law -- in conjunction, incidentally, with shippers and customers. I think the fact that we’re talking about over 700 new major licences in this province if these are adopted is an indication of the problem that faced the minister when he brought in Bill 4.

While now, with hindsight, it’s very easy to say that Bill 4 was somewhat primitive because it did not take in the scope that is envisaged by the committee report, nonetheless, further hindsight, I think, will show that Bill 4 was a most significant document in the transportation history of this province.

The truth of the matter is that were it not for Bill 4 there would have never have been a select committee. Were it not for the select committee it probably would have been quite some time down the road before an attempt to begin an overall review of transportation policies would have commenced in this province; and by that I do not mean a back-handed attempt to look at the Ministry of Transportation and Communications or its transportation section, or at the Ontario Highway Transportation Board.

The simple truth of the matter is transportation has become such a priority item in this province -- and not necessarily the highway movement of goods or of people, which is now in the media, but indeed it has become probably the most essential criterion upon which this province is going to meet the very many economic and social challenges of the last quarter of this century. It’s no accident that we included energy in this report, because changes in energy in three or four years have made massive inroads upon traditional transportation concepts and are going to make even more. I suggest that Bill 4 has provided an impetus for a new insight into transportation in this province.

One of the difficulties in attempting to come to grips with a transportation policy is the fact that once again as a province we are being faced with the insatiable lust of the federal government to intrude once again into an area where not just this province but all 10 provinces have assumed their duties and have worked out a transportation system that is at least equal to, if not better than, any other in the world, bearing in mind the geographic differences, the climate and a number of other factors.

I cannot understand why a federal government that 40 years ago or even 50 years ago, even as late as 10 years ago, had no interest in trucking whatsoever, now has this inordinate desire to get into the field.

Hon. B. Stephenson: So do the rest of us have inordinate desires.

Mr. Drea: Especially, and this may be the most significant thing, since from its inception in this country the federal government has controlled air traffic, whether people or goods. It has ruined the airline industry in this country. Probably because of the American experience, it inherited the inter-provincial railroads, in fact all the railroads. I think I will get a response on this when I say government policy, not only toward the two major railways of this country but toward the provincial branch lines, has proven such a disaster that quite frankly, in the foreseeable future railways will no longer be a first-class mode of transportation.

In the movement of people, railways have already been virtually phased out. In the movement of perishables, railways are now such an insignificant contributor to the transportation picture that for practical purposes they might just as well be phased out. They are having the greatest of difficulty in handling specialized goods or specialized commodities or hazardous commodities. In fact, all of the new modes of carrying goods or of being able to move goods to a place where they can be instantly used are in the field of trucking.

Once again, this puts tremendous pressure upon a province to be able to regulate and to attempt to set long-term policies for highway transport, when there is an ever-looming threat of the federal civil service wanting to tinker and to make their average in terms of transportation in this country absolutely perfect. They already have two dismal failures to their record. They merely want to add a third.

I suggest that this report should demonstrate to the federal government there really is no place for the federal government in the intraprovincial trucking sphere. I don’t think anybody disagrees that the federal government does have a responsibility, albeit a relatively minor one because of the co-operation of the provinces, in the interprovincial field. The thrust of this report is regulation. I would hope in the foreseeable future there will not again be a ringing debate over the merits of de-regulation.

Mr. Reid: It will never end.

[4:00]

Mr. Drea: I would certainly hope, on the basis of the findings of this report, of the evaluation, of the experiments with de-regulation, and quite frankly, the government’s own experiment with de-regulation which ruined the dump truck industry, that at least that particular aspect of transportation problems has been solved.

The fundamental difficulty for the committee -- and it is a very difficult one for people who, by occupation, not only make laws but are called upon to enforce them and to respect them -- was to come to grips with a situation where we had this extraordinarily large number of stable, successful and absolutely law-defiant companies on the roads.

When we are confronted with evidence that there have been companies operating for eight, nine or 10 years as the sole shipper for rather large firms in this province, and that there has been a conspiracy by the shipper, that there are literally brokering agencies which can find an illicit operator not only a load but a lawyer who will draw him up a phoney trip lease and that that is done every day of the week, it becomes very difficult for a committee to have to wrestle with the realities of the situation.

The truth of the matter is that when defiance and breaking of the law reaches that extent it is impossible to turn back the clock and to bring about enforcement that would have given these people the penalty they probably deserved.

I don’t think any member of the committee likes to be in a position of licensing the bootlegger or absolving the law-breaker. None the less, in the field of transportation there is the overriding public interest. Transportation is not only a public necessity; it must serve the public interest. Quite frankly, if the system was too inflexible or too cumbersome or too unwieldy and people could start up in defiance of the law and it did serve the public interest, then it is incumbent that the law be changed.

What the committee is recommending is very simple. That in 1977 -- we wanted 1976, but early 1977 will suffice -- we establish firmly the beginnings of an overall transportation policy in this province by bringing in under the regulation of government the disparate segments of the highway transport industry.

I am pleased to say -- because I could understand why they would vehemently oppose this -- that the Ontario Trucking Association has given grudging approval to this proposal. I think that demonstrates the responsibility and the maturity of the industry, because it would have been very easy to say, “Why should you license the law-breakers at our expense when we obeyed the law all along?”

The two major labour organizations in this field, the Canadian Brotherhood of Railway Transport and General Workers and the Teamsters Union, have contributed their thoughts to this report. I think it is a demonstration of their maturity and their responsibility that they see this as a beginning for a more stable, a more successful, and a better transportation industry that indeed will fulfil its potential in the public interest. I think it would have been very easy for them to oppose this, because with the number of new licences coming on the road there may very well be some dislocation of employees.

But I think in the overall picture and in the relatively near future it will not only make for a better industry for the consumer but a better industry for the employee, as well as for the companies involved.

The key to the success of this report is not only relatively quick adoption by the government; quite frankly many, in fact almost all, of the recommendations do not require legislation.

I was rather surprised to hear the member for Rainy River (Mr. Reid) say he didn’t understand the exact procedure or how the procedure would work to bring in the companies that have operated under pseudo-leases. It is a relatively simple one. Public need and necessity is recognized by the Highway Transport Board, but the report says that where there has been a stable and a successful transportation relationship between a shipper and a trucking company or a number of consumers and that trucking company, there is the criterion for public need and acceptance.

Mr. Reid: What kind of licence are you going to give them?

Mr. Drea: Most of them will apply for Cs, they don’t want As. I would imagine there would be a few Ds. There will be one R, which I think will be fascinating. Everybody has always denied there was a pseudo trip leaser in the tank truck field but there is one of some substance.

I don’t think that in itself will be the major problem; and after all we have suggested that they are not getting off with absolution, they are still going to have to do a year of penance and if they don’t do the year of penance with what according to the Highway Transport Board is considered to be satisfactory behaviour, they are out for all time.

But the real key to it is enforcement. Personally I think the methods of enforcement today, relying upon the weigh scales and the mobile cruisers -- I think these are passé. They are passé because of cost, because of the sophistication and the great diversity of shipping routes and also the citizens’ band radio has made the weigh scale almost obsolete except --

Mr. Reid: The portable ones.

Mr. Drea: Well, the cruiser with the portable ones; it takes two men and there is the cost of it. The CB radio makes it possible to avoid them as well. The weigh scale has become as much of a joke as the 55-mile-an-hour speed limit on Interstate 75 in the United States.

If the weigh scales and the cruisers with the portable equipment were really to be in the enforcement field they would have to be open seven days a week, 24 hours a day. The cost of erecting a sufficient number of weigh-scale locations where trucks could be impounded, the cost of providing two men to a car for the portable weigh scales to be used on that extensive an operation would, I think, be extremely costly to the taxpayers of this province. And I also suggest it would not really come to grips with enforcement.

One of the departures in this report is the suggestion that it is not just the trucker who circumvents the law; that indeed when a law is circumvented it is usually a conspiracy, because the shipper sits down with the unlicensed carrier and they conspire together to defeat the laws of this province -- and always for only one reason; one is going to make money, the other is going to save money. We have suggested in this report that a shipper who knowingly enters into one of these agreements in the future faces not only an extremely heavy fine but also may learn to give the transportation policy course at Millhaven Penitentiary. I suggest that is a far better way of enforcement.

We don’t enforce tax collection with people overseeing the cash register. We don’t enforce the very many taxes there are in the licensed alcohol industry with people standing by on every transaction or monitor. We do it through a sophisticated audit. We do it through spot checks and, quite frankly, to me that is a far more substantial threat and deterrent for a potential law-breaker than all the weigh scales or the portable weigh scales, or the activities of the Ontario Provincial Police in carrying out the applicable provisions of The Highway Traffic Act.

If a man is a traffic manager or the proprietor of a company and he doesn’t know when the audit is coming or doesn’t know when the check is coming but he knows he may go to Millhaven for saving some money, I suggest he will rapidly depart from trying to play fun and games with the government, aided and abetted, of course, by his friendly solicitor who just happens to have a two-way trip lease in his back pocket. Enforcement, if we are to have a regulated truck industry, is essential. The committee has agreed that a regulated truck industry is essential not only to the present economy of this province but to the future improvement and the future development of this province.

Secondly, and the member for Rainy River as well as other speakers touched upon this, there is the issue of reciprocity. Reciprocity is going to be a lifetime occupation in the transportation field of this province because in no way, shape or form is it ever a simple independent decision.

Reciprocity has to be weighed on the basis of its impact upon Ontario carriers in the short run. It has to be weighed in terms of revenue in the short run and in the long run. It has to be weighed in terms of this country’s export policies. It has to be weighed in terms of this country’s export policies. It has to be weighed very substantially in terms of the orderly shipment of goods in this province.

It has to be viewed in terms of the capital which may or may not be divested. It has to be constantly weighed, whether the reciprocity agreements are with individual states, the western provinces or the province of Quebec and the Maritimes, because governments change, attitudes change.

In this year we have been slapped twice in the face by once relatively reciprocal partners. The state of Michigan, rightly or wrongly, took arbitrary action. The province of Quebec has yet to accept its responsibilities in terms of the Ottawa dump-truck drivers. I would certainly hope that Mr. Levesque, and I take him at his word, wants friendly and honourable relations with the other provinces. I hope Mr. Levesque will do what Mr. Bourassa not only wouldn’t do but dropped his own curtain of double talk around -- that is look at the particular problem of a one-sided arrangement on the Ottawa River.

We have asked the ministry to set up an office or a division to look at reciprocity. I don’t think I could be any more eloquent than the member for Rainy River; I think he has stated the case for it. I think if only that came out of this report, that alone would justify the work which has been done.

[4:15]

Finally, I would like to echo the very many comments about the dump-truck situation made here today by the member for Etobicoke. It is a particularly vexing situation. It is one that only regulation can help and it may have to be very stringent and very harsh and, perhaps for a short period of time, almost draconian regulation. In this province we have lived, in my adulthood anyway, with chaos after turmoil after chaos after turmoil in the dump-truck industry, and each and every time a Band-Aid or a very small solution has been attempted.

I beg your pardon; once we took the big step -- that was de-regulation -- but we found out it was 100 per cent wrong and we brought it back into a form of regulation.

The aggregate hauling industry is an essential one which many people look to as their only opportunity or their first opportunity to get into business in this country, but it is one in which the people, despite their pleas to government for at least two decades, have never received the attention that their problems merited.

Therefore, in the ensuing weeks and months I hope this committee will be able to sit down and draw up a definitive policy for the dump-truck industry, whether it be in northern Ontario, where road work is virtually the only avenue of revenue for them, or whether it be in southern Ontario, where it does the complete gamut from gravel and sand hauling and snow ploughing on up to snow removal.

It is a very difficult field. It is one that I am sure will challenge the ingenuity and talents of the members on this committee. But I think 1977, and as early as possible in 1977, is the appropriate time to deal finally with that segment of the industry. It is rather unique in that it is the only one where safety checks are required. Not even for your passenger car is a safety check ever required.

As a matter of fact, you can send a very substantial cargo of very inflammable gasoline or chemicals down the road without going through about one-tenth or one-fifth of the safety checks that we inflict upon the vehicles in the dump-truck industry.

I am not questioning that those safety checks may be necessary, but I find it extremely significant that one of their complaints in this industry is they don’t mind the safety checks but if it is good enough for them, why isn’t it done in the tank-truck industry and why isn’t it done in the over-the-road industry with the same degree of government enforcement as faces them.

Finally, I would be remiss if I did not pay tribute to Mr. Max Rapoport, our general counsel for the interim report and who will serve for the final report. I think the work and the counselling of members that he accomplished this fall certainly emphasizes that he is indeed the country’s foremost transportation lawyer. Indeed, he is probably one of the two or three foremost transportation authorities in this country -- and that goes far beyond the legal sphere.

Secondly, we were extremely fortunate in this committee -- and we are going to be fortunate again -- because we were able to borrow from the civil service. I think we sometimes sneer a little too much at the civil service, but in this case we were able to draw upon the resources of the civil service in this province and we had Mr. Brian Caldwell from the Ministry of Transportation and Communications as our research director. I would say categorically at this time that were it not for the research work of Mr. Caldwell, and the overall general counselling of Mr. Rapoport, this report would be the traditional kind of interim report that is tabled in this Legislature.

We have met for many months and we will give you detailed reports a year or two from now. I think that such a complex subject was able to be broken down into its components with such relative speed and the number of hearings -- whereby, incidentally, no one in this province has said that they didn’t have the opportunity to have input -- is a great tribute to these two men.

I would hope that when this report is really analysed, prior to the introduction of policy changes, administrative practices, or the very small sections that do require legislation, those who are considering it consider it in the light that it must be a package. The recommendations cannot be implemented on a hit or miss or sporadic basis, because if they are then I suggest we are following the traditional fallacies that have plagued attempts at really coming to grips with the problems of this industry.

You cannot isolate the North Bay restriction from the fact that there are going to be new C and D licences on the road. You cannot isolate an overall transportation policy from the issue of reciprocity. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, it was intended to be adopted as a package. I would hope that it is viewed as a practical, reasonable package of proposals that will be a beginning for a transportation policy that will enhance the economic and the social development of this province.

Mr. Conway: Frank Drea for the cabinet. He should get a cabinet post.

Mr. Moffatt: I gather it is traditional with select committee interim reports that they be rather mundane and not very substantive documents. I think this particular document is substantive and I think it goes some distance toward answering a number of problems which appeared to us to have been existent in the transportation of goods in this province for a number of years. Those problems didn’t arise because of great government policy, with all respect.

I suggest that there has been a glaring lack of government policy in the transportation of goods field which has led to the chairman of the Highway Transport Board and his able officials not understanding exactly where they should go with regard to enforcement; with regard to the controlling of entry and so on. It has led to confusion in the industry.

Hon. Mr. Snow: They don’t have powers of enforcement.

Mr. Moffatt: Obviously, as the minister has interjected, the Highway Transport Board does not have powers of enforcement. Somebody has to do the enforcement; that is one of the problems.

What I am suggesting to the minister -- and I appreciate the fact that the minister has stayed here all afternoon to listen to our comments with regard to this report -- what I am suggesting is that there has been an absence of policy. If there has been a policy it has not been clearly stated. There have not been clear objectives by which the Highway Transport Beard or any of the other agencies could measure their effectiveness.

If we have regulation of the industry what is the purpose of that regulation? If we listen to the representatives of the regulated industry they will tell you that the industry regulation has one purpose. If we listen to the people employed by those same firms we find out that regulation has another purpose. If we listen to the people who are not in the licensed industry we find that regulation has another purpose entirely and that, in their words, was to keep them out of the business.

I think it is very clear, as the member for Scarborough Centre has outlined, that this report lists the recommendations in a

summary form, in a complete form, and that it is not our intention that little bits and pieces be lifted out of this report and be put in as a kind of Band-Aid or patchwork bit of legislation that will clear up the situation. There is a problem existent in what is probably the most important industry in this province and that is the transportation of goods.

The problem is not going to go away. It is in a state of hiatus now because the people, some of whom are in the galleries today, are here to see that this select committee report will come into being. If there are not substantial moves made by the ministry to implement the policies recommended, the problem will re-emerge and they will not be satisfied with the appearance of a sop by forming a new select committee or introducing a little bit of legislation to get the thing corrected.

I refer to the Rapoport report which said, in 47 recommendations, that the dump truck industry was in some difficulty and that 47 things should be done in order to correct it.

To date, I think we’ve had three little items from that particular report and that was to clear up a problem which has been in existence for some time. If the same attitude continues with regard to this report, nothing will happen except that the people who are concerned with this industry will be in a much worse state a year from now than they are right now.

I think a policy on the transportation of goods in this province has to take into consideration the reliability and safety of the transportation of those goods and the safety of people using our highways. It also has to take into consideration the economics of the situation. It cannot be only cheap; it must be reliable as well. It cannot be only reliable; it must be safe and it must look after the individuals who are concerned and who are employed in those industries.

The highways are not owned by the trucking companies nor by the people who drive those trucks. They are built and paid for by the people of this province who expect the delivery of goods will be facilitated by a reliable industry using those highways. It is a dynamic industry and, in that case, it needs to have flexibility in the ministry so that problems can be responded to at the time the problems arise not pushed into a corner or ignored. I suspect that’s what’s happened.

To my way of thinking, and I think the people in this party are united on this, it is not an industry which needs to have needless and mindless competition in order to make it effective. It needs to have the continuance of government regulations in order to ensure that the public will be served, which is the first commitment we would make to the public.

The hon. member for Rainy River alluded to the group in this party caving in under pressure from the Teamsters with regard to Bill 4.

I want to tell members right now that at the time Bill 4 came before this House, we had not had any contact with people attempting to get us to cave in under the Teamsters or anyone else; the whole allusion by the member was an illusion, in fact.

I think it’s important to note in this report that one of the problems which has constantly plagued the trucking industry is that leasing vehicles is a kind of fluid arrangement which changes from week to week or month to month or year to year. I would hope that one of the things we’ll be able to come up with is some form of standardized leasing contract which will be able, over the long run, to clarify this whole business.

Visiting Washington we were given information by the interstate commerce commission and various other agencies which indicated that in the United States they are going to a fairly standard form of leasing arrangement for cab cars and so on. I think that may well make enforcement, which would flow from a final report and this report, much more effective.

The member for Scarborough Centre has come out with his normal policy of draconian enforcement to clear up the situation. It may well be that enforcement in this particular instance will be effectively dealt with by some of the methods we’ve suggested in the report. I gather that making the shipper liable for the activities of the trucker he employs is one method which is novel and, I think, it may well work in this instance.

One of the things we had happen to us in dealing with other areas was that people from other states had written letters to the minister and had not had answers to some of their problems. In the middle of this past summer the state of Michigan imposed a penalty against trucking firms from Ontario moving into Michigan. It seemed to us, from the submissions made to the select committee, that what had happened was they had written, called, visited Ontario’s Ministry of Transportation and Communications and elicited no real response.

Hon. Mr. Snow: Never heard from them.

Mr. Moffatt: They took that kind of action in order to draw a serious problem to the minister’s attention. I suspect, if that’s what’s happening, there’s something a little remiss in what is going on in the Ontario government when reacting to questions, comments and briefs from other jurisdictions. If what they related to us is true, I suspect that something needs to be cleared up somewhere in the ministry.

[4:30]

Mr. Shoniker, the chairman of the Highway Transport Board, in