Manitoba Hansard — 2 May 1974 (Sitting 112, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-112

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XX I No. 112 8:00p.m., Thursday, May 2nd, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM lXO ASSINJBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Pi., Winnipeg R3J 3L8 Bl RTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova BRAN DON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Bran don R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative B ldg., Winnipeg R3C ova CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1 L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Harvey Patterson NDP 978 Garwood Ave., Winnipeg R3M 1N7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova ELM WOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova EMERSON Steve Derewianchuk NDP V ita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FUN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man.

ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 132 Osborne St. S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 GJMLJ John C. Gottfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO JNKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAKES! DE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman P.C. Steinbach, Man.

ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man. ROG 1KO OS BORNE Hon. I an Turnbull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 23 Coral berry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. 135- 16th St. S.W., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 2W5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1WB RHINE LAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W.

Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3YB RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova RUPERTSLAND Harvey Bostrom NDP Manigotagan, Manitoba ROE 1EO ST. BONJFACE J. Paul Marion Lib. 394 Gaboury Place, Winnipeg R2H OL4 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave.,Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George M inaker P.C. 318 Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3JB ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, O.C.

NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 418 Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SOURJS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man.

ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 1171 Westwood Dr., Thompson RBN OGB TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M. Petursson NDP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY I.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, May 2, 1974 SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS 3045 MR. CHAIRMAN: Department of Highways, Resolution 64 -t he Honourable Member for Birtle-Tussell has 25 minutes remaining. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't intend to use 25 minutes, in fact I want to be as brief as possible, but there's one or two things I'd like to ask the Minister of Highways with respect to the proposed road between Thompson and Gillam. At the present time I understand, Mr.

Chairman,that survey crews are doing pilot studies north of the river and I was wondering if the Minister in deciding on that particular location had taken into consideration the community south of the river that would not be serviced, the community of Pikwitonei, 250 people, Pit Siding with 40 people, Ilford, Wivenhoe and some of the other communities there.

There's York Landing as well.I understand that there is a possibility, a very good possibility of a third hydro line in that vicinity, and it would seem to be that if the costs of construction are anywhere comparable at all between a route south of the river as compared to a route north of the river that it would do a very good job of providing access to the two existing hydro lines as far as service is concerned. it would serve the communities that I have already outlined to you and while we realize that there might be an additional cost in construction, I wonder if the Minister has the figures and the estimates of the possible price differential between a south route as compared to a mrth route in that area.

And if he has, we on this side of the House anyway would certainly be very pleased if he could give us his cost estimates of the two vari- ous routes. At the same time, I would like to know how much liaison there has been between the Department of Highways and the Hydro, if Hydro has been consulted and if they agree with the proposals, or the present location that is being surveyed by the Highways Department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, those are good questions asked by the Honourable Member for Birtle-RusselL I would like to, if I may, Mr.

Chairman, at this time try to answer the question that was posed by the honourable member. At this point in time I do not have the figures available that the honourable member has asked for. However, if it's agreeable to him I could take this as notice and perhaps give the honourable member that information some time in the near future. But as far as liaison with Hydro, certainly there has been, there have been discussions from time to time on this proposed route.

We are well aware of the situation and the communities on the north side as well as the south, but I would suggest to the honourable member as I'm sure he's well aware of, that some decision has to be. made one way or the other. I think the honourable member must realize that you can't serve every community with a parti cular road, but I can assure him that whatever the final decision will definitely be there will be some plans made that certain communities will be serviced with some sort of a road. This is the kind of discussions we have had with the Hydro people.

Hopefully at first, we had hoped to go on the north side because of the possible other tourist developments and what have you and also the terrain and costs. And I think that we m ve to consider costs, if anything first and foremost. We have to consider those. If they 're within reason, then I don't think that anybody will quarrel with it too much, but if the difference is extravagent then of course you have to go for the lesser cost.

These are the kind of things that are being discussed now with Hydro and so on and I'm sure that we will try, with Hydro and The Department of Highways, we will try to service as many communities as we possibly can, regardless of whether the road is to the north or to the south. But as I said, I cannot give the honourable member the figures at the present time because we don't have them right now, but as soon as we get those figures I can relate that information to him.

Now getting back to some of the other questions that were asked during the last couple of days, I was dealing with the questions that were asked by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, although he's not in his seat at the present time; however, there were several questions that he had posed, one in particular with regard to vehicle inspection, I would point out to the House that the Branch is continuing with the compulsory vehicle inspection program for 1967 vehicles and older. We are employing two mobile units.

Approximately 17 , 000 vehicles were inspected last year and about the same number will be inspected this year. In addition, all school buses will be subject to a very rigid inspection and the matter of expanded vehicle inspection program is also presently under consideration.

3046 May 2, 197 4 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'

d) I dealt briefly on the question of testing of professional drivers this afternoon. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia also asked a question in regard to research into accident causes. I would point out that the Branch will be engaging a Research Analyst for the purpose of analysing accident statistics to determine the causes and, hopefully, to suggest possible re medial action , Now the seat belts, of course, I also dealt with, and of course there is the question of bicycle accidents and training. We are promoting bicycle training to many of our school areas as well.

I might point out that we have had tremendous co-operation with the various service clubs and the enforcement officers, people who have really pitched in and helped out to try and see if we can achieve - and I think we will achieve - a good program by teaching safety on bicycles; and not only on bicycles, but when we start from the younger children they will be then, in this way, accustomed to highway traffic rules and regulatim s which, when they get older and drive vehicles other than bicycles, they certainly will be a little more aware of the rights and the wrongs.

The questions of reciprocity of driver licences between jurisdictions, as the Honourable Member for Assiniboia asked, there now exists complete reciprocity between all Canadian provinces of driver licences. This does not apply to chauffeur licences or other classes of licences. When the class licence system, as I pointed out earlier, is adopted by all provinces in the same class, classes will be subject to reciprocity as well. We have experienced no difficulty whatsoever in obtaining driver records from other jurisdictions from persons taking up residence in the province of Manitoba.

Similarly, all reports of convictions and accidents reported against non residents are transmitted to the jurisdiction of which that particular person is a resident. I was quite impressed with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa -I see he's in his seat - because he came in here last night, I believe it was, or the day before, and he was chuckling because of the incident that happened in my office, and as I made a comment from my seat at that time - I don't know if it will interest honourable members who heard it or not - but I said at that time that I still have not sent him the bill for the damaged furniture.

And I don't want to create the impression that the Honourable Member for Minnedosa comes into my office and starts to get rowdy and throw furniture around -t hat was not the case. Perhaps we should be talking to the Minister of Public Works who 's responsible for the furniture in this building. I apologize for what happened, but I'm certainly glad that the honourable member did not get hurt while falling off the chair.

On the program itself that was distributed, I feel that - and I have said this before and I say it again - I think that we have as fair a program and distributed as equally as we possibly can to all sections, all parts of the province, based on priority of course, and I'm certainly glad that the Honourable Member for Minnedosa is aware of that. And on the other question which he seemed to be concerned about, the

section of the road where he feels that it is somewhat darkened, we are aware of it and1 as the honourable member knows, the Deputy Minister is from that area and he's mentioned it to me as well, and I don't know, perhaps we'll have to take another look at it and see if something can be done. But I want to point out to the honourable member that that is not the only area where we have these kind of situations. There are many other areas of the province that perhaps have to be looked into insofar as lighting is concerned.

The Honourable Member for Morris - and he's not here unfortunately today - and listening to the Member for Lakeside this afternoon, I thought that the Member for Morris gave me a pretty good idea, because I never thought that the Official Opposition now, who were the govern ment not too long ago, that the Minister, whoever he might have been, had a pencil handy and if somebody made some remarks against the Minister about certain roads, he would then strike them out as the honourable members were speaking.

Well I can assure you that it's not my intention to do that, because of the fact that I don't believe in doing things that way. I know that it was all as a joke; it wasn't serious. There has been quite a bit of talk since we have been on the Highways estimates, in regards to Highway 75, the question of four-laning and what have you. I can inform the members of the House that there is no doubt there is a good reason for perhaps the members being concerned as they are about Highway 75, particularly when you're talking about the tourist trade and what ..

May 2, 1974 3047 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) . • have you. We have, as a department, looked at this situation and we have given it real good serious thought, but we find that it may be of some surprise to the members that we find that really traffic-wise and what have you, it really doesn't -- up to now, we don't think that it warrants that kind of priority to four-lane this particular road at the present time. However, we're not saying that this is not going to be done.

Perhaps in some near future time this will have to be really considered very, very seriously, and therefore I do not really discount that possibility.

I also notice that in the comments that were made by the various members, the other question that came up quite often is the rail relocation here in the City of Winnipeg, and this has been discussed for quite some time by the Highways Department, by Urban Affairs and the city fathers as well, and I tend to sort of agree with the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, except to say that although I wasn't here at the time - I don't think the Honourable Member for Fort Garry was either -but there was an honourable member who used to make this statement, and it reminds me of that little statement that was made some years ago when the Honourable Member for Fort Garry was speaking and said, well we should be talking to the people about this rail relocation, about where it should go or whatever.

So you have both sides. And I was thinking of the story because somebody said one time in this House some years ago, he said, "Some constituents are for me, some are against me, but I 'm with my constituents. " And I would think that was a very good position taken by the honourable member.

And as I said, this has been discussed on numerous occasions, but I do agree with, I believe it was the Honourable Member for Crescentwood who said, that "I don't think that we should really rush into making this type of decision." I think that there has to be -- this has to be, I'm sure, discussed a little further to make sure that no mistake is made for the future development of the city and other urban areas. In regard to the contribution by the Provincial Government for arterial streets, we do have a program which has been in existence for some time, which is a 50/50 cost-sharing on streets that qualify.

As well, up until this year, we had a per lane mile grant of $1, 750.00 . I would like to inform the honourable members1if they're not aware of this, that we have increased that amount from $1, 750 to $2,400 per lane mile for qualified streets, and I think that this was certainly welcomed by the city. On the over-all street program, I think the Honourable Member for St. James had men tioned the fact, or maybe it was the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, mentioned the fact that perhaps we should set up some sort of a committee.

Well, I would like to suggest that in re gards to some of the developments such as streets and bridges and what have you, this has been mentioned here, that the committee now does exist. It is composed of people from the Urban Affairs Department, from the Highways Department, as well as the City, and we have met on a number of occasions. I have had a chance, an opportunity to attend a couple of meetings or so, or maybe more but two I am aware of, when we have discussed such things as the increasing of per lane mile amounts, which I just mentioned. Some discussion took place about the St.

Vital-Fort Garry bridge and also the Osborne bridge and some of the -- well, as a matter of fact, the McGregor Street bridge, and all these things have been discussed. -- (Interjection) Unfortunately, somehow this never came up, I would like to inform the honourable member, at least not at the meetings that I attended.

But also the problem that I think - and it is a problem; this has been mentioned to me on a number of occasions and again just today by the Honourable Member for Charleswood, and I know that he has a very serious concern about the overpass at Roblin Boulevard, and of course there are others, there are other areas in the city that also need some attention, and I would like to say at this time that we're certainly looking at that possibility of doing something about the area that I just mentioned in the Charleswood area.

And of course we have to keep tab of all other areas that are dangerous as far as motorists are con cerned, and we will certainly try and do our best to construct these overpasses whenever and wherever possible over a period of time. But as the honourable members must be aware, I'm sure, this kind of a thing is not something that can be done very quickly. It takes at least, I would say at least two years to complete, once you start. You can't do it in a very very short time.

So we'll have to, as I say, we'll have to look at our priorities here, look at the areas which are really urgent, and we are doing that at the present time and we'll certainly do our best to construct these overpasses from time to time wherever absolutely necessary, particu larly for the safety of our driving motorists.

3048 May 2, 197 4 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'

d) One of the more serious questions, I guess, that were posed not only today but also I believe yesterday, and this is something that I would like to talk about for a few moments, and that's in regard to our total estimate - and I see that the Honourable Member for Lakeside is not in the House and in his seat at the present time, and also I believe there was some other member mentioned this very same thing in his comment- and that's in regard to the amounts.

We look at the book and what we see here is 25.5 million dollars which was for construction of provincialtrunk highways, provincial roads ·and related projects, which was for last year, and we look at the other side of the ledger and we find $26, 500 , 000 for this year, and we say, "My God, this is only a one million dollar increase", which is correct. But that is not the entire answer because what we see here is 26 million and a half which is current, we have $11, 500, 000 for Capital, and there was also Frontier and Resource Roads $10 million, for a total construction program of $48 million.

And I'm surprised that the members opposite did not -- or perhaps they did but they didn't mention anything when the Capital Budget was discussed here some time earlier, which was brought in by the Honourable Minister of Finance.

But nevertheless this is all here, and of course when you look at the entire program I do not agree, definitely do not agree with the Honourable Member for Lake side when he quoted those figures without quoting the others, and I'm sure he knew about it. -- (Interjection) -- But nevertheless you will find, the honourable member will find the fact that instead of saying that we have a slowdown of about ten percent1the over-all picture when you take in capital, current, and frontier and resource and what have you, also not included in here are the "Roads to Resources" as I call them, al though that is really not a fact because I do not know what happened to that program • • • MR.

ENNS: It faded away. MR. BURTNIAK: That's right, and I don't know whatever happened to him. He faded out -- this phrase faded out the same as Mr. Diefenbaker, I suppose.

But nevertheless, the roads of the North under the special program as well as another program that I mentioned earlier that we're dealing with with the Federal Government now, because they feel, the Federal Govern ment feels that perhaps there should be certain amounts of money, and I agree, because we have pressured them to a certain extent on this, that maybe because of rail line abandonment or whatever, we also know that trucking loads have to be increased, and therefore it is not only the responsibility of the Provincial Government, whether it's Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta, it is also the responsibility to some degree of the Federal Government as well.

We're working on that program, so therefore I believe that the total figure would be about - what? Over and above this. About $65 million. So when you consider all these things and the new program, the Honourable Member for Lakeside certainly was not correct. And even based on these figures that I've just given him, we are not reducing our budget or going back by ten percent, over and above last year we are about 15 percent higher than we were last year. So therefore I just thought I'd better mention these figures because -- (Interjection) -- Okay. MR. ENNS: I do wish to apologize to the Honourable Minister.

I made the understandable but obviously serious error in believing his printed estimates. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, they're printed estimates, but so was the Capital � printed too, and I don't know where the honourable member was at the time because he could have questioned them at that time. So it's as simple as that. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't know if there are other -- there probably were other questions that perhaps should be answered. I know that there were an awful lot of them. I think I've covered most of them because many questions that were asked were repetitious.

Except I do know that we were talking about Highway No. 1, the widening and what have you, and the visibility as pointed out by the Honourable Member for Brandon West --I'm sorry. � MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Chairman, I was just going to remind the Minister that I had placed two questions before him in connection with Trans Canada No. 1 and I hoped he would deal with them. MR. BURTNIAK: Yes, I was just getting to that, Mr. Chairman, I was just trying to find my notes here and I just noticed it.

On the question of visibility; first of all I think that we have a problem not only in that particular area that the honourable member was mentioning, although I do believe that maybe he's mostly concerned with that particular area because he travels that road, but as far as visibility on Trans Canada No. 1, Trans Canada • • • to Dakota; No. 2 from eight miles east of Starbuck to Oak Bluff; and No. 75 Highway from about

May 2, 197 4 3049 SUPPLY -H IGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) • • • • • eight miles north of Ste. Agathe to about two miles south of Ste. Agathe. So we have these problems not only in that particular area but also others. Now I would like to thank the honourable member for bringing this to my attention and I certainly will be discussing this with the Highways Department to see if something, if anything can be done in these areas to alleviate the kind of conditions or situation that from time to time motor vehicle drivers do run into.

The other question: As the honourable member knows, we're four-laning No. 1, and one of the things, a problem that we have been confronted with as I mentioned earlier, was the fact that we have had in different places -n othing that serious but nevertheless it is serious because it does stop construction - is the purchase of right-of-way, and we 're trying to negotiate to the best of our ability with the people involved to obtain land for the twinning of this highway.

I don't recall exactly what the honourable member had said about -- I do recall something about "jumping from place to place" or something to that effect. Now if I haven't got the question correct I would also invite the honourable member to enlighten me on that, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, just to go over one or two of those points again.

I made the suggestion and wondered if the department had considered that in their programming of the divi ded highway for Trans Canada, that they might deal with areas of high density traffic in more or less priority terms, and I suggested that areas in and around the urban area of Brandon had a higher density of traffic than other areas which might be between that vicinity and the vicinity of the present divided highway construction.

So the question I placed before the Minister was whether the program was laid out to simply continue westward with this divided highway construc tion, or whether you would add to the presently divided highway that is immediately north of the City of Brandon. Mr. Chairman, the other matter, and one that I consider is of urgent importance because of its bearing upon the safety of travel on Trans Canada Highway, was that area that I described to him just between Kemnay and Alexander, and particularly that S-turn area, where there is a change of elevation and two changes of direction and a

section of the road which I consider definitely substandard when compared with any other

section of the Trans Canada in Manitoba. And I think it's urgently important that the Department consider this particular

section and attempt to eliminate what has been a contributing cause to more than one serious accident involving loss of life, and I would like the Minister to comment on that problem in that particular area. Mr. Chairman, if the Minister's not going to comment immediately, I would also remind him that I asked him a question about the use of government vehicles by departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

When the Minister replies to the questions that are being placed before him, I wonder if he would comment or bring us up to date on the position with regards to the extension of a road north from Rossburn connecting through the western extremities of Riding Mountain National Park, connecting with Grandview, that particular area.

I know there have been representations made and I realize the problems in volved in dealing with the federal people with the National Park, but I don't want to take any further time to expound the virtues of such a connecting route because I'm sure that the people in that area have made representations to the Minister time and time again, and he's well aware of the benefits to the particular people and some of the benefits of such a connecting road. But I just wondered to bring us up to date if he would comment on what the particular position of his department is in that regard. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To carry on with what the Member for Minnedosa said, Mr. Chairman, I would wonder if the Minister would consult with the Minister of Tourism and Recreation about the possibility if everything else fails in their negotiations with the Federal Government, if the province would consider the advisability of the purchase of the west end of the Riding Mountain National Park for the very purpose of being able then to put a road through dividing the Provincial Park from the National Park.

This problem has existed for many years and the arguments have been put forward on other occasions and I don't want to belabour the point any further, other than to make that possible suggestion that, if all other means fail with the Federal Government, would the Province consider the advisability of pur chasing for a provincial park the west end of the Riding Mountain National Park?

30 50 May 2, 197 4 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR . GRAHAM cant 1d) And while I'm on my feet, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to make a plea to the Minister.

When he has, in his wisdom, upgraded the load limit on Trans Canada Highway, I would hope that the Minister would take into consideration the fact that there is a second Trans Canada Highway, namely the Yellowhead Route, and in the transportation industry I think the Minister should be aware that the cost of transportation from Winnipeg to Vancouver in the day of increasing costs of fuel, makes the attractiveness of the Yellowhead Route even greater, because there is a saving in fuel from Winnipeg to Vancouver if those in the trucking industry use the Yellowhead Route, a saving of approximately 50 gallons per trip, which I'm sure is significant in a day when we are all conscious of the saving of the depleting resources of the oil industry.

With those few comments, I would hope the Minister could give us some answers. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I would like to take the Minister up on his invitation to remind him of some questions that remain unanswered that were raised over the past two days. The first series of questions deals with the issue that was raised, I believe the day before yesterday, on Tuesday, in relation to the present workings of the taxi system in the City of Winnipeg.

If the Minister recalls, I put a series of questions to him, first on the issue of the service itself and whether the assessment has been made on the reasons why the service is so poor, or why it's failing, or why there isn't a proper system functioning; secondly, what is the assessment of the government on the present financial situation of the co-operative taxi system? How does the financial position of the co-op taxicab owners compare to those of the independent owners? Does the government have plans to reorganize the system to prepare for the next winter season when we can expect the same kind of trouble?

What kind of returns were set in relation to the vendors of the original system and how has that turned out in terms of the actual financial arrangements that were· concluded? And who did really benefit from the system ? And finally, is he really satisfied with the present arrangement? I believe the Minister made some comments this afternoon that he has held some meetings but we didn't really hear about the conclusion of those meetings and whether in fact there is now some inspiration to go back and find some better answers than those that were concluded in 1972 .

So that was one series of questions that I would hope he could address himself to tonight. A second series of questions related again to the policies and programs of the Department in terms of the urban road system and the confusion that now exists, certainly in the minds of several members on this side of the House, as to who really is making decisions, and it goes back again to the urban transportation study that I believe was conducted by the Department of Highways about two years back. I don't think that report was ever published.

What I would like to know: Is the priorities, if there are priorities, of the government based upon some under standing of an urban highway or arterial road program? Is there some basic choice in the priorities that they have chosen between the automobile versus the mass transit system? Who is making the decisions?

And perhaps, as I pointed out two days ago, most importantly, what kind of planning system does the Provincial Government see being required in order to ensure that we don't continually run into the problems that we are now running into in the City of Winnipeg, where a variety of neighbourhood and resident groups are finding themselves contin ually being ignored in the planning process and feel that the only way they can gain access is through some form of protest?

Is there some effort being made with the City of Winnipeg to work out a planning system that would simply go beyond the technical formulations and begin to work into some sort of consultative process with affected communities, and is that part of the urban highway or road or transit program that a provincial government must have upon which it bases its subsidy program to the City of Winnipeg? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to ask a question of the Minister and this is in regard to his earlier statement, to access roads, the program which he said they were continuing. Now I have a number of villages in my constituency. that are situated close to PR roads, and traffic on the roads through the villages is very heavy and dust conditions make it almost impossible to live in these villages. I wonder if these villages would qualify for assistance under the access roads program for construction of roads and also on the dust control on the

May 2, 197 4 3051 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BROWN cont 'd) • • • • • main streets through these villages. And I would again like to bring to the Minister's attention that it is quite important for our area over there that 248 and the 42 8 are connected with the No. 23 highway, and that the No. 336 then also be upgraded and so on. This would take a lot of traffic away from the No. 75, and I think that this is something that the Minister should very definitely consider doing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr.

Chairman, to get back to where I started to just before, dealing with the questions that were asked by the Honourable Member for Brandon West in regard to the particular portion or

section of the road that he referred to where a number of accidents have taken place, and I think he refers to it as an "S- turn" or something, and I have been just chatting with my departmental people here and certainly we will be looking at that to see if something can be done in that respect if it is as bad - and I have no reason to doubt the honourable member, that it is a serious problem.

But insofar as the traffic is concerned, our road program of course deals with traffic priorities all the way down the line, and the accident area, which I think is east of Alexander, is being investigated by the Department of Highways Traffic Section, so we are well aware of the problems that the honourable member has mentioned in his remarks.

The employees who drive government vehicles, whether it's for the Highways Department, I would like to inform the honourable member that our policy in this respect is the same as has been set out by the Management Committee of Cabinet, and if the honourable member would like to have more information on what that policy is, per mile and how many miles and so on is driven, and what is the charge per person per month for personal mileage, I can certainly give that information to him, oh, tomorrow even, as far as that goes.

There is no difference in that policy as compared to the rest of the policies, pretty well the same, so much per mile for so many miles and then they have to pay so much for their personal use, personal mileage, that they put on government cars. But I might point out, though, that there are certain people in the Highways Department, I suppose there are those also in other departments, but particularly speaking of the Highways Department there are certain people that must have vehicles on hand at all times - on weekends and at night as well.

I know that there have been statements made or been brought to my attention and others\ wondering why government vehicles are driven home at night or on the weekend and so on, and these are the vehicles that perhaps these people have a certain job that must have these vebicles, and they are in the same kind of program as the rest who are involved in driving government vehicles for government business, but if they use these vehicles for their own personal use they pay so much per month for that particular vehicle.

Mind you, it is cheaper in most cases, depending on the number of miles driven per year; it is cheaper in most cases, when they exceed a certain mileage per year, for the government to buy the cars rather than have them drive their own cars and pay them for their mileage, so this is the difference. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I might just interject with a question.

Do I understand this correctly, that those individuals with the department who are required to have a car at their disposal 24 hours a day, a government car, then are charged a flat rate per month, so that they may use that car for their personal use in addition to those jobs which might be handled after hours relating to the department? In other words, they would have free use of that vehicle for public and private use provided they paid a flat rate per month to the department. Is that correct? MR. BURTNIAK: Well, I think I got the question correctly. If I haven't we can try and settle it.

No, for private use, for private use, as I said, they pay a certain amount for their personal mileage. -- (Interjection) -- Oh yes, oh yes. For their own personal mileage. They pay for that. And it's sort of -- but if the honourable member would like either myself or the Minister of Public Works, who's responsible for vehicles, to get a further clarification, I will certainly try and give him that information entirely just exactly how it is. I can't do it right now. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, then it's on a sort of an honour system, is it, for these individuals to report mileage that they use for their personal purposes and to repay the depart ment on that basis - is that correct? MR. BURTNIAK: Pretty well, that's pretty well correct. Now, some of the other questions were asked by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell

3052 May 2, 1974 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR, BURTNIAK cont'd) . • . , • insofar as the park and the roads to the park is concerned. I can recall when I was in Tourism that a number of questions from time to time were asked on this possibility. We have not been able to convince the Federal Government, because after all it's a federal park and, as a matter of fact, I heard something on the news today about this particular road that we've been talking about for some time, and it doesn't look all that good that there is any chance of getting a road through that park.

I think they were suggesting some thing of the idea of going around the park somewhere but not through the park as has been sug gested. So I have noted it down and if there is any possibility, fine, but I would say to the honourable member that our chances are pretty slim in trying to convince the Federal Govern ment; or even working with the Provincial Government with the Department of Tourism, I don't think that there is really much of a chance of us persuading the Feds to do anything in this respect. However, that does not mean that the thing will be dropped right there.

On the question that was posed by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge in regard to transportation programs and what have you, I would say that the Provincial Government does have certain inputs in regard to various streets and the entire transportation program, we have certain inputs to that, but I don't think that it is, nor do I think that it should be entirely, the onus should not entirely be on the Provincial Government as such.

I think that the best way to do it - and this is what we have been trying to do - is to discuss these matters with the City as we have on other issues, such as I have mentioned on the Bridge, Osborne Bridge and so on, and sometimes there is a difference of opinion, this is fine; but I think that these negotiations should take place on these matters and I can assure the honourable member that this is being done, Now, just to give the honourable member an idea insofar as, say for example, the street construction is concerned, that in the past two years that the City of Winnipeg, for example, has not requested nor has proposed an amount of construction which the Department of Highways was prepared to participate.

In other words, they have requested less than our share of three ( ?) million dollars. We leave the onus up to them just like we do on our grants on street programs to towns and villages and what have you. We don't say to the towns and villages, "Here is how much money you can have to do certain things with your street program." They will come to us and say "Now this is what we want done and this is how much money we have," and once these streets are approved which are eligible, then the province will come in and contribute an equal amount. So this is pretty well on the same basis as far as the City is concerned.

I don't think that the government of the Province of Manitoba wants to go to the City and tell them what to do exactly as far as the street program is concerned, but negotiations are prevalent here for all times, and discussions take place, and I think that in most cases on this particular question, I don't think there have been too many meetings that things haven't been agreed upon, I know not in every case, but in most cases that is the situation.

But when you 're talking about Rapid Transit and Minibus and all these things, this is something that is not going to be done, I can assure the honourable member and I'm sure he knows this is not, if we decide to do anything in that respect, this is not going to be done overnight; it's going to take a lot of dis cussions, a lot of planning, and a lot of people have to be involved here to decide what will be done insofar as the transportation problems in the City of Winnipeg are concerned.

Now, I'd like to also mention something about the questions that were posed by my colleague the Honourable Member for Crescentwood when he was talking about orbits on our highways. This is a - -I 'm sorry. MR, AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister is going to answer the questions that were posed in relation to the cab system in the City of Winnipeg. MR. BURTNIAK: Oh. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I thought I'd pretty well answered that question this afternoon because, as I said, when we did have presentations here in the Legislative Building in my office on a couple of occasions by the taxi owners and drivers last winter, they were telling us that they were having problems in giving good service to the residents of the City because they were not able to hire drivers for the amount of money they were making -i t just wasn't worthwhile. So we did agree and, as I said, we felt that they had a real good case, and we went along with them and we gave them a fairly substantial increase in various ways.

I don't have all the facts with me but I think the honourable member can appreciate the fact that we did do these things, and one of the things that we did say to them, to the Taxicab Board: "We certainly want you to give better service, because if the problem

May 2, 1974 3053 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) • • • • • is what you say it is, then therefore because of the increase you should be able to hire more drivers and better drivers and give better service," which they agreed to, but as I said this afternoon, I repeat again, I don't think that we would be wise in making a decision right now because we really haven't had time to assess the situa tion to really make a decision as to whether or not we should have more taxis at this point in time to give better service or whatever.

This is now resting with the Taxicab Board and they are watching it very closely, and I think that in a short time - perhaps even before next winter - if the situation as is pointed out to me by the members is that bad, which I know it's not always the best but sometimes maybe we're a little overly critical, that we will review that situation and something will be done to improve whatever needs to be improved in this regard. And I 1hink that I mentioned this this afternoon but if it's for the benefit of my honourable friend I '11 mention it again.

Now getting back to my colleague, the Honourable Member for Crescentwood, he mentioned one of the things that has been of some concern to me and the Highways Department and this is in regard to our orbits along the highways. I fe.el, as I'm sure most members do, that this was a very good program.

As a matter of fact, I have had letters over the last two or three years from some of the states in the United States asking us for advice as to how to go about keeping their highways clean, because they have seen some of these orbits when they drove by and they stated this in a letter to me, that they didn't know what these were for; and they saw the word "orbit" on it and then they had to stop to take a look and see what it meant because, as one gentleman pointed out, he said, "I thought maybe you'd get into it and you'd take off into orbit," but nevertheless they realize that this is a good program.

And it has been. We've kept our high ways a lot cleaner than we would have had them under normal conditions without these orbits, but unfortunately, unfortunately, Mr.

Chairman, what is happening today is the fact that a lot of people, particularly on long weekends - particularly - and I may be a little critical here but nevertheless this is true, or somewhere along the beaches where the cottages, and so on, and it so happens that now when they see these orbits -- they were meant to put in garbage that you have, trash that you have in the car as you travel along, but all of a sudden somebody got the idea that if they can take out a bunch of old mattresses and any kind of cleanup that they have to do, they will take it.

As a matter of fact over the Easter weekend we saw not only mattresses, we also saw an old wooden stove that somebody didn't want and they hauled it on the highway and they left it along by the garbage, by the orbit. Well this is I think terrible. Somebody said to me, you know, your Highways Department is now turning into a garbage collection agency, which we really are, and I don't know what the answer is.

I think we'll try to - we hope that people will use these orbits for the proper use that they were meant for, but perhaps we should have some sort of further education, or some posting, or some literature, pamphlets going out pleading with the people not to use these orbits for the purpose that some of the people have been using them for. On the question of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, he was talking about collection of beer bottles on the highways, and so on.

Perhaps it's a good idea but I would suggest to the honourable member, my colleague, that perhaps he should be discussing this matter with the Attorney-General. I would also like to inform the member that in respect to the road that he referred to, which I'm very familiar with, that is the Red Deer Point Road, I have had discussions with the R.M. of Mossey on this question, and as a matter of fact very shortly I'll be meeting with them again, and perhaps something can be worked out, but at this time we haven't reached any final decision.

On the loads, I think I did forget to mention insofar as truck loads, truckers and the truck weights are concerned, we've tried in the last year or so to increase the load weights on the Trans Canada Highway. We have them now at 80, 000 pounds, which we feel is helpful to the industry. All other parts of the province we're still on 74,000.

We have discussed these problems, or this matter with the other western Ministers of Highways when we had our Western Highways Ministers Conferences, one in Saskatchewan last year and one in Manitoba this spring, discussing the possibility of some sort of uniformity of weights across western Canada; and we've suggested 80 , 000 pounds on the Trans Canada, which we have put in effect now, and other provinces,

3054 May 2, 1974 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR . BURTNIAK cont'd) • • • • • Saskatchewan and Alberta are also looking at this possi bil ity. At the same time we are also studying to see if there is any adverse effect insofar as our pavement is concerned due to the increased load weights, whether the highways are deteriorating faster and if so, just by how much because we have to, you know, I'm sure the honourable members understand that the quicker the road deteriorates that means extra money for repair work, and what have you.

So we would like to know just exactly how much - well, not exactly, but we'd like to have some idea if we do go to larger weights on other roads, maybe even higher than 80, 000, we would have some sort of an idea what these costs might be to build our roads to haul the kind of loads that we're discussi ng at the present time. I 'm not sure if I have - oh yes. The Honourable Member for Rhineland yesterday, I believe, did mentio n something about a road - now I don't know what I did with it. I don't seem to be able to find it, I'm sure I have it here somewhere.

I remember I made a remark from my seat that it doesn't seem to be too expensive if you say it fast - and I just can 't seem to find it here. But anyway the honourable member, I think, mentioned something about a concrete road which he said, it wasn't very far, it was only a matter of some 60 miles, and as I said it doesn't seem like very much if you say it fast but if you multiply that by $150, 000 per mile I 'm sure my honourable friend can figure out that it 's going to cost $9 million.

So you know, like I say, it doesn't seem too great when you say it fast, but nevertheless it is a very expensive propositi on. Whether concrete is absolutely necessary there or not, I think it all depends on the kind of land, the kind of terrain because there are certain areas of the province that in the long run concrete is more reasonable and cheaper in certain areas, depending on the terrai n where in other areas it isn't feasible to put in concrete. So these are the kind of things that we are confronted with. and we have to make our decisions on.

I would say to my honourable friend that although I personally, and I'm sure everybody would agree, would like to see every road in the province, whether it 's a PR or a PTH, every road paved, or cement, or concrete, but we know that is not possi ble. We have to set our priorities on our programs from· year to year. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. It is nine o'clock and the time for Private Members' Hour having arrived, committ ee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, has directed me to report progress and ask leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING (St. Vita l): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. • • • • . continued on next page

May 2, 197 4 3055 PRIVATE MEMBERS• HOUR MR. SPEAKER: The first item, Thursday night, Private Members• Hour1is Bill No . 23. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . SHAFRANSKY: Stand, MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 31 . The Honourable Member for Crescentwood . MR. PATTERSON: Stand . MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 47. The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Stand, BILL NO . 48 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 48. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR . J .R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre) presented Bi ll No. 48,

an act to amend the Liquor Control Act 2, for second reading . MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE : Mr . Speaker , this is rather a sim ple amendment which the City of Winnipeg is actually requesting to take care of a problem which has arisen under the act with licen sing of functions at the Convention Centre . I think the people who have had the opportunity, I suggested that they take a look at

Section 125, this is in keeping with the amendments we have proceeded with in other areas to take care of sports are nas , and other facilities which require some control and special licensing. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Mr .

Chairman, I just want to rise to tell the honourable member that unlike the treatment that Bill No. 23 has been getting, we see the merits of thi s particular amendment to the Liquor Control Act, we•re prepared to act expeditiously and permit it to go to committee, I only wish, I only wish, Sir, that honourable gentlemen opposite would take the same view with regard to a bill that I have been attempting to get through this House for two years on behalf of constituents of mine . We•re prepared to let this bill go to committee right now. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr .

Speaker, I too , speaking on behalf of our party1checked the bill and we are prepared to let it go as expeditiously as possi ble . I would concur with the comments of the Honourable Member for Morris that just spoke in response to Bi ll 23, I spoke on that for some le ngth last year, and I agree with him wholeheartedly: that bill was on the Order Paper during the whole session last year, and I hope it•ll get that expeditious treatment , too . QUESTION put, MOTION carrie d. MR. SPEAKE R: Private Members• Bill . Bill No. 35. The Honourable Member for Morris . MR . JORGENSON : Stand , please . MR .

SPEAKER: Bi ll No. 39 . The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr . Speaker , I would like leave of the House to let this matter stand. By way of information, Mr . Speaker , with respect to this one and the next one , there •s just a requirement that we check with Legislati ve Counsel as to these bil ls, and they're being stood for no other reason. I just give that information to the hvnourable members. MR . SPEAKER: Agreed that Bill No. 39 and 40 stand ? The Honourable Member for St . Vi tal . BILL NO . 40 MR . WALDING: Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

I•ve had a chance to look over Bill 40, and have had a report on its contents, and there is no reason to hold the bill any further at this time . MR . SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt Bill 40 for second reading ? Agreed ? So ordered.

3056 May 2, 197 4 RESOLUTION NO . 11 (MR . SPEAKER Cont•

d) Private Members• Resol ution No. 11 . The Honourable Member for Birtl e-Ru ssell had it, but it•s open, MR . J. WALLY McKENZI E (Roblin ) : Mr . Speaker , in the absence of the Honourable Member for Bi rtle-R ussell, I assured him that I•d try and contr ibute someth ing to the debate on this resolution No. 11 which has been here with us si nce the opening days of the sessi on, and has been carved up by amendments to the stage now where I don•t think one would hardly recognize that it was anything of the same intent . But nevertheless , Mr .

Speaker , I do think that the amendment as proposed by the Honourable Member for Radisson deserves the attention and the debate of the House . Again, Mr. Speaker , I•m rather concerned as I have been in other speeches durin g this sessi on, more so this session than others , at the lack of policy by this government for some form of cont rol, or at least some suggesti ons of control over this horrible disease of inflation that•s spread across our province and across our great land , and whereby today percentages of 10 , 11 and 12 percent are being accepted as an annual increase , and migosh , Mr .

Speaker , if we're going to sit in this Legis lature and not do something, and at least stand up and debate and hopefully find some way to attack this disease , we ·have a very dim future for the people of this great province . Of course , Mr . Speaker , this risin g inflationary factor is on e that's real ly come into its own in the last 12 months of our hist ory.

It •s not very long ago, in the last year, or two or three years , where we were talking in the neighborhood of one and a half and two and three percent inflation which the average economy can live with, but there•s no way that an economy today can survive , and get by with 11 , 12 percent inflat ion . Of course , Mr . Speaker , in my opinion part of the problem at least started the days that the late Honourable Lester B. Pear son granted the seaway workers on the St . Lawrence Seaway that increase they got of some 35 or 38 percent increase those few years back .

In my opinion that was the root or there was the start of the inflationary spiral in this country . Of course in the past two decades, Mr . Chair man, we have certainly seen an unprecedented growth , economic growth, in Canada , and we•ve also seen a tremendous growth in government spending programs , gover nment bureau cracy and government power . I don't think we have to look very far to see how greedy this government is for the power to take over all the ri ghts of the people in this province . So, Mr .

Speaker , we have more and more and more demands levied on our people in the form of taxation, because how are you going to ta ke over the people , or what- easier way is there to take over the people than to tax them? Because when you have them heavily taxed you have them under control because they can•t go any place because they got no money, the government has all the money. So I think, Mr .

Speaker, that I do become very critical of this government because they are hungry for power , and they're hungry for money by the way they're taxing us in this province ; we're the highest taxed - paying the highest income tax in Canada . So therefore that is again part of the root and the problem of the inflat ion that we •re facing in Manitoba , Of course , Mr . Speaker, we've witnessed gover nments legisl ating the growth of union power and wage demands far beyond the justi fied productivity of those gains , and I have certainly no quarrel with the labour people or the labour unions in our country .

We trace back our hist ory to May Day, which dates back, I guess , in our hi story to 18 - I think the first May Day was 18 74, if I•m not mistaken, somewhere m that neighborhood, But , Mr . Speaker, today when the demands of labour far exceed the productivity of the one who's getti ng it, then the economy falls into a vacuum and we become corroded and tainted from infl ation. Of course these may not be the only factors , the ones, Mr .

Speaker , that I'm speaking about to night in today's money cr isis , but they 're certa inly major ones in my opinion that are being borne by our taxpayers and our people , as the Honourable Member for Radisson, those with the little ability to pay people - migosh who in this province isn•t in that category with the risin g costs of living that we•re facing ? Mr .

Speaker, it•s an amusing thin g to see the government , or the member on the NDP bench come up and offer an amendment to this resolution, because there's hardly a newspaper that you pick up anywhere today that hasn't got inflation as the No . 1 front page item on its pages . -- (Interj ection)-- Well, I•m saying that the governments are partly responsi ble . Ev ery city in this country now are even comparing who •s got the highest inflat ionary increases

May 2, 1974 3057 RESOLUTION 11 (MR . McKENZI E Cont•d) ..... in their citi es. An

article that I saw here not very long ago, I think on the front page, St . John•s, Newfoundland, I think, was leadin g that time with approx imately a 12 percent inflationary factor . And then I think our capital city of Ottawa was around 11 percent , and in the city here of Winnipeg, I don't know, I just forget what the figure is, but I•m sure it 's ten percent today. So Mr . Speaker, in my opinion for the past 20 years we •ve been spending a larger and a larger share of our efforts, our total efforts into services as distin guished from things .

This in my opinion is part of the cause of this inflationary spiral . Your food budgets are only requiring 17 percent of our total expenditure of money and that•s the lowest ratio in the civilized world. Of course , our most rapidly rising categories for these hugh expenditures of money over this same period of the last decade has been education and our health service s; categories that put relatively little pressure on our resourc es. Of course, Mr. Speaker, you'll find it very difficult to get economists to agree , to agree to any one particular factor of the inflationary spiral .

There are some economists today that are blaming this terrible socia l housing and the economic problems of our society, they are blaming it on the capitalist society, or they are blaming it on free enterprise - that•s a typical one of the socia li sts . But, Mr . Speaker, I can •t buy that argument because if you check out the areas in which people are facing problems today, economically and social ly, in Manitoba, in Alberta, Sask atchewan, British Columbia and Newfoundland, and among our neighbours to the south, you'll find in all cases, Mr.

Speaker, that those people have cars , they've got television sets, they've got lawnmowers , they've got skidoos, they're just loaded with material , material things that are around them, so therefore I say, Mr . Speaker , that the capitalist or the free enterprise system has worked because those people have those things in their homes today. They have them around them. So the private sector , Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion, the private sector of the free enterprise system has worked well in this country for the last hundred years , and it •s continually working well today because, and I think it 's the distribut ion, the di stribution of our educational system and the distribution of our health services system that 's bogging us down and getting us into all these economic problems .

The expectations I'm sure of people in this provi nce, in fact people all across Canada, I think could be translated into many things , cleanline ss of air ; I don't think there•s anybody disagrees that we •re not looking for that form of quality of life for our people; fresh water, clear er , without pollut ion; a good standard of health care for everybody. A structure of a more equitable and more social structure so that we can have a better quality of education for our young people . It goes on and on, and the shopping list is long. But to satisfy those demands, Mr .

Speaker , and to satisfy those aspirations of our people we need enormous, enormous sums of money, and where are we going to get that money, Mr . Speaker? We must draw it off the man on the street by taxes� by taxes . So in Canada in 1970 the total taxes that were drawn off by the Federal Government of Canada was approximately $1 6.5 billio n. This year, 1974, and I'm just speaking off the top of my head, but I'm sure , Mr .

Speaker , when it•s all added up you'll find that the Gover nment of Canada today will be drawing some 23-24 billion dollars off the taxpayers of this great country, a figure that far exceeds the gross national product of a majority of the countri es around the world , and that in my opinion means that we're becoming in a most untenable position, Mr . Speaker . The only way that I know of, Mr .

Speaker, that we can continue to stimulate such a structure for the future of our people in this province and for the future of all Canadians , is to combine our wealth with our growth and expand and industrialize our soci ety in such a way in rural Manitoba , and all across Western Canada,with a built-in system at the same time that has something in there to put the brakes on this inflationary factor , Government, Mr .

Speaker , in my opinio n, at the Federal level, and governments at the provincial level are going to have to continue to take a more closer look at the inflationary factor than they are today, otherwise we•re going to go broke . We are going to walk around with a pocketful of dollars that's worthless, worthles s, because it 's quite obvious the government at the federal level, and the provincial level , and the municipal level are spending almos t 50 cents of every dollar you have in your pocket today; that's more than you have left for yourself . And you think, Mr .

Speaker, that we haven't priced ourselves out of business ?

3058 May 2, 1974 RESOLUTION 11 (MR . McKENZIE Cont1d) So I say1Mr. Speaker, that the government at the federal and the provincial levels are going to continue certainly to provide Canadians and the people of this provin ce with incre ased social benefits , but to do that, if we're going to continue to do that at the level that we're at today with the inflationary factor , I say the people can't bear the load; they can't possibly assume the tax load that we're going to have to ask them to pay if we continue on our present trend.

If we continue to let inflation run wild, and if we continue to expect our people to pay these excessively high tax bi lls , somebody's going to get left by the wayside, and that's the guy that the Member for Radisson was mentioning in here, the man, the little guy with the ability to pay. Who are these little people in our provi nce that have the ability-to-pay principle hung around their neck like an albatross such as the Member from Radisson .•• them. Most of our people , our little people in this province , because when you get through paying your taxes today, what have you got left ?

Very little - very little . So , Mr . Speaker , I think Canada as a nation, and Manitoba as a provi nce, are going to be in for a rude shock one of these days because when the peoples of the outlying worlds around � us or the other far countries of the world elect to pass up our goods and services because our prices are too high, then we have priced ourselves out of business. I think we •ve reached that stage in our economy today, Mr .

Speaker , where we have all kinds of evidence of goods and services that•s produced ri ght here in Manitoba, that•s produced rig ht here somewhere in the other provinces of Canada, that you can't sell to the export market . So, Mr . Speaker , I say again that rather than amend this resolution such as the honourable member from Radisson has amended it, we need a much better job than that, and a much better amendment to such a resolution.

I think we need an all-out effort by this government and the other governments across Canada to try and hopefully come up with some way to fight the high cost of living in every day living that people are experiencing in this province . With all the natural resources and the talents and the skills and the wealth and the brains that we have in this province , Mr.

Speaker , I would say in this Chamber, that one of our prime responsi bilities , and should be a No . 1 priority on our list , that this assembly keep up our fight against inflation and high cost of living , and that should be a top priority of every member of this Chamber. Otherwise we will not have a Manitoba . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order plea se . MR . McKENZI E : ••. or we will not have a Canada that is considered to be the great place to live in that we think it is today. MR . SPEAKE R: Order. MR . McKENZIE : Mr . Speaker , the honourable members ask what is the cause of inflati on ? Well, Mr .

Speaker , in my opinion there are three main roots to this disea se, economic disease . There's some forms of inflation which we import into this country I don't think that we can do anything about . MR . SPEAKER: Order . MR . McKENZIE : Inflation which we import in by goods and services we•re buying from outside our boundari es , we're importin g into Canada. MR . SPEAKER: Order pleas e. The Honourable Member has five minutes . MR . McKENZIE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I don •t think we can cure that part of the economic problem . The other one, Mr .

Speaker , the base of it in my opinion is there •s price increases which are caused by the shortages of goods and commoditi es , and we see that happening every day; there's all kinds of items today that we can't get our hands on and immediately the price shoots up. The milk today is an example . I don't see how, Mr . Speaker , how we can take a posi tion to control that type of price increase. Shortages and inflatio n, I think it •s rather an unfortunate thing, that they've both arrived in this province at the same time . But the true domestic type of inflation, Mr .

Speaker , is the one that we can attack as legislators in this province , and that 1s the one aspect that hopefully that I would some day get this government to understand and recognize that they can do something about it , and it's not related to the law of supply and demand. This type of inflation that I'm talkin g about, this domestic type that we can do something about , will grow in 19 74 to what? Does anybody here in this Chamber tonight predict what the inflationary rate will be by the end of December of this year ? In fact every month; I wouldn•t be surprised if it 's going to be 15 percent by the

May 2, 1974 3059 RESOLUTION 11 (MR. McKENZIE Cont•d) ••.• , time we get to December 1974, Mr . Speaker . But it can be stimulated I think when governments will recognize that you can•t print money just to cover up your bills and keep expecting the taxpayers to pay it , and that's what the Federal government of this country does today, Mr . Speaker , That •s, when a government operates on a defi cit position, they print their own money just to cover their defici ts , and that causes an increase , Mr . Speaker , in the money supply and that certai nly fires up the flames of inflation.

I say that another way that domestic inflation can be brought on is when the rate of credit expansion exceeds the physical capacity of this province to handle that kind of credit , or Canada in fact, and to produce the goods and services so that form of credit is meaningful. So , Mr .

Speaker , in my closin g remarks I will again say that domestic inflation can be attacked by this government; it can be attacked by the legis lature of this province ; and it can be attacked by some of the economists and financial people that understand what it•s all about in this province , and we•d better start doing something about it before it•s too late , MR . SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt ? The Honourable Member for Morr is . MR . JORGENSON : Mr .

Speaker , I don •t think that we should allow the resol ution to go without fully exploring the intention behind the resolution, and to perhaps draw to the attention of the House , and hopefully to the attention of the people of this province , the effects of government spending in taxation on inflation and the cost of living. There is no question that inflation and its effects on the average worker , or the average person in this country today, is one of the greatest areas of concern being experienced by Canadians , and what the resolution proposed by the Leader of the Liberal Party intended to do .

In my view it is a strai5htforward and well-intentioned resol ution si mply to examine the cost of inflation, or the cost of taxes on inflation, the effects of taxation on the cost of liv ing , I don't have the figure before me but I read a report some years ago, and I mentioned this in the House before , where the cost of a loaf of bread - and one must bear in mind of course that a loaf of bread is a parti cular food item that goes through many, many processes before it is finally sold over the counter as a loaf of bread, unlike milk or unlike other products on which there is almost a direct route from the producer to the consumer - but in the survey that was taken in the United States the indications were , as near as could be ascertained by those who did the surveying , that 50 percent of the cost of that loaf of bread was made up in tax es.

Now we have not had similar surveys made in this country. All we can do is take some rather si mple examples and some - they may be crude examples but they will serve to illustrate the very point that the resol ution is attempting to determine , and le t•s start at one thar was drawn to my attention not too long ago . Honourable gentlemen opposite talk a great deal about housing and how expensive it is to purchase a house these days.

Well, you know, if that is the case , and if there is any shred of concern on the part of the honourable gentlemen opposite on the high cost of housing, they have it within their power to do something about it, I got these figures from one who is in the business of sellin g mobile homes, and these were actual figures that he gave me in connection with an actual home that he purchased and brought into this country and r-esold, and the figures contain only that pol'tion which is involved in taxes.

The origin al costs of the home was pur chased just across the border for $6, 353 ,0 0 but before it got into this country there was a federal sales tax attached to it, which brought the price up to $7, 200 . 00 . A MEMBER: Rip-off. MR . JORGENSON: And my honourable friend from Radisson keeps talking about rip- offs. A MEMBER: David Lewis would call it a rip-off. MR . JORGENSON: Well Mr . Speaker , speaking of rip-of fs, can you imagine a rip -off greater than that which the Federal Government have been taking in the last ten years in Ottawa ? A MEMBER: Which the NDP now support in Ot tawa . MR .

JORGENSON: The Federal budget in 1964 was $6 billion. A MEMBER: Supported by the NDP party in Ot tawa. MR . SPEAKER: Order pleas e. MR . JORGENSON : Today that same budget is $22 billion. Now if you want to talk about ri p-offs ? You want to talk about ri p-offs ? There •s one that my honourable friend should

306 0 May 2, 1974 RESOLUTION 11 (MR . JORGENSON Cont•d) ••••• contemplate , Where else does the money come from to increase a budget from $6 bil lion to $2 2 billion, if it doesn•t come from the taxpayers , and if that increase isn't reflected in an increase in the cost of those things that Canadians must purchase? I go on to complete the story of the mobile home . After the 12 percent federal sales tax which increased the price up to $7, 220 . • . A MEMBER: It didn't work for David Lewis, it's not going to work for you. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

JORGENSON: Then there is a federal duty on that same home of 17 1/2 percent , which now increases the cost of the home to $8 ,483 . 50, and it hasn•t even crossed the border yet. Then after it has crossed the border then there's a 5 percent provincial tax, and that is added on, not only to the initial cost of the home but the taxes that have been incorporated in the price of that home si nce the federal sales tax and the federal duty has been added.

That, Sir , raises the final price , without commiss ions , without anything el se, that raised the price of that home to $9 , 246 . 82; there•s an increase of $3, 000 in federal and prov incial taxes on the price of a home alone , and my honourable friends opposite have the audacity to stand up in this House and complain about the high cost of homes and talk about rip -off artists . Well I can•t think of a better rip -off artist than the combined governments •.. -- (Interj ection)-- MR . SPEAKER: Order please . MR .

JORGENSO N: • • • who increased the cost of a mobile home by $3, 000 , half the cost of the home itself. -- (Interjection )-- MR . SPEAKE R: The Ho nourable Member for St. Matthews. MR . WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Coul d the Honourable Member for Morris give us an estimation of what percent of the housing stock of the provin ce , the particular example he cites , would consti tuteJwhat percent of the total stock in being, in being added does this parti cular example constitu te ? MR .

JORGENSON : I don't know what the honourable member is attempting to arrive at , All I am doing is illustrat ing , and what the resolution is attempting to do is to call for investigation into the effects of taxation on the cost of livin g. And I am simply attempting to give him an illustration of how three separate taxes imposed by governments - they're not imposed by anybody el se. . . A MEMBE R: Just governments , by a Conservative Government . MR . JORGENSON: .•• does have an impact and an effect on the price of a mobile home.

Now in this , of course, there is not the 11 percent sales tax, which is added on to the cost of a home that is built in this country, not a mobile home. Now one could go on and illustrate example after example . My honourable friends keep talking about corporations and rip-off s by everybody el se. You know, not too long ago Val Werier took an example of the cost of liquor . Now I •m not going to suggest that this is an example that increases the cost of living or contributes to the high cost of liv ing . What it does, is contribu te , or has an effect on the cost of high living.

You know, I simply use this as an illustration to make my point . A markup on a bottle of rye: 84 cents goes to the distil ler , six cents is freight, 29 cents federal tax, $1.5 5 federal excise tax, $2. 50 provincial markup, and 24 cents provincial sales tax. You know, and for honourable gentlemen opposite to say that it's the rip-off artist other than the governments that are contributin g to these costs , it just does not add up, The fact is that there is a substantial contribution to the cost of liv ing and inflation in this country contributed by governments .

As I repeat, Sir, all the resol ution is asking for is an opportunity to examine that so that people of this country will have some idea of what taxes contribute to the cost of liv ing in this country. Now, Sir, I've got all sorts of advice around me , and perhaps the --(Inter jec tio. l)- MR , SPEAKER: Order please. Order please . Order please . MR. JORGENSON: Now, Si r, ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please . Order please. Let me indicate that the Chair has been harried by a lot of interj ecti ons , a lot of noise and parti cularly by Harrys.

I'm going to suggest, suggest to the Harrys that if they don't conduct themselves accordin g to Hoyle , out they go . The Honourable Member for Morr is . MR . JORGENSON: Sir , I1m grateful for that intervention on your part, Si r, because it will facilitate my debate , and it will enable me to make those points that I have been attempting to make without the raucus interjections that are so near me . • I I - I • I

May 2, 1974 3061 RESOLUTI ON 11 (MR. JORGENSON Cont•d) ••.•. Si r, let us then take the price of oil. And my honourable friends are talking a great deal about the profits that are made by oil companies . I don't deny that the records show that there are profits . But what has been the effect of taxes ? And again I don't quarrel with the need for government to find revenues to build the highways, and the roads , and what is necessary for automobiles to run, and I suppose that an imposition of taxes on oil is one way of rais ing those revenues.

But let•s look and see what the price of oil today is in relation to the taxes. Now in 1920 the price of oil from the refinery --( laughter) Sir, that slip was prompted by the inter ventions that surround me . In 1920 the price of gaso line from the refinery was 48.5 cents . A MEMBER: That slip was 86 proof. MR . JORGENSON : There was a 3.5 cent markup to the dealer and in those days there were no taxes on them at all. That resulted in a price of 52 cents a gall on.

That was short lived, because technology and the discovery of the abundance of oil on this continent very quickly brought the price down to - in 1930 it was down to 20 cents a gallon from the refinery. Then at that point there was a five percent sales tax, provincial sales tax imposed, and the dealer mark-up went up to four cents a gall on, which brought the price up to 29 cents a gall on. In 1940 the price of gas from the refinery was 19 . 5 cents a gall on, the provincial tax went up to seven cents, the dealer markup was four cents , brin ging the price to 30 . 5. And so it went on.

In 1950 the price of gasoline was 24.5 cents, but then the feds came in. They decided that theirs was the right to impose a tax as well. A MEMBER: Must have been the Liberals . MR . JORGENSON: So they imposed a tax of 1. 2 cents , and the provincial tax then went up to nine cents , the dealer mark-up went up to five cents , resultin g in a total price of 39 .7 cents . In 1960 the price was 19 .3 cents (the price from the refineries continued to decl ine) 19 .3 cents as opposed to 48 cents in 1920 .

The federal tax went up to 1. 6 cents and the provincial tax to 11 cents , the dealer markup went up to six cents , making a total price of 37.9 cents . In 1970 the oil prices still remained rel atively low at 21 .5 cents . The feds increased their share up to 2. 1 cents , the provincial tax went up to 17 cents, and the dealer markup went up to 9.3 cents , making a total of 49.9 cents . Now, more recentl y11973 the price of gasoline was 25. 3 cents, and all the way down the line that has not been a si gnificant increase in the price from the refinerie s.

The feds decided to get a little more of the take, they now take 2. 9 cents, the provincial tax is still 17 cents , but the dealer markup rose from 9. 3 to 10 .7 , making a total of 55.9 cents . So all during this period the price of gasoline from the refinery remained reasonably constant .

The incre ases that have taken place - and I don•t quarrel with themjgovernments have to find revenue, and perhaps that•s as equitable a way to find the revenues that are necessary to build the roads as any - all I do is illustrate this as a means of pointing out that the final price of a product is influenced a great deal by the taxes that are imposed at various levels a great deal.

And what we are attempting to do , again I point out , Si r, in this resolutio n, is simply to have a committee to study and examine this whole question, to determine to what extent, so that the people of this province have some idea of the influence that taxes have on the cost of living .

Now, Sir, when the Member for Radis son, the Lord Hi gh Executioner on the government side , decided to give the ax to the resolution and move an amendment thereto, he had this to say: By adding - and he deleted everything in the resolution and just si mply added that what was pleasing to the ear of the government, but he had this to say: The price - and obviously this motion was moved before the latest report on the cost of living in this City - he had the price of consumer goods and services ris ing at a less rapid rate in Manitoba than in Canada as a whole.

So here you have a piece of information contained in the resolution itself that is not in accordance with the facts, and if the government were to be honest with itself, and be honest with this House, they would move to strike that portion of the amendment out because it does not contain what I consider to be the facts of the situation. Sir , in the Fin ancial Times of December 4, 1972, in an

article by Don McGillivray • MR . SPEAKER: Five minutes. MR. JORGENSON: . • . he goes on to report on a report that had been presented by a group of economists, and he goes on to say: "E conomic policy seems to have reached an historic turning point, something like the time in medical science when doctors stopped

30 62 May 2, 1974 RESOLUTION 11 (MR. JORGENSON Cont •d) •• , , . draining blood out of si ck people to make them well and started pumping it in. " Well hopefully governments these days will start to do the same thing, but there is little evi dence that that will happen, He said: "The latest evidence that tax increases can make inflation worse is in a still unpublished study of manufacturin g wages carried out for the now defunct Prices and Incomes Commission ." And it goes on to point out that evidence that taxes are a cause of inflation has alse been piling up in the United Stat es.

"A study prepared for the Joint Ec onomic Committee of the United States Congress found that personal tax rates were a si gnificant cause of wage inflation.

" And another U ,S. study was cited by Profesor Wilson: "The average annual rate of inflation was . 45 percent faster in 1969 than if 1965 tax rates had remain ed in effect," And then he goes on further to say: "Increases in income taxes added one percent a year to the rate of wage inflation, and if indirect effects were added to those direct effects , the contribution of taxes to inflation would be shown to be even greater ." Fin ally he says: "One would hope," said Professor Wilson, "that in the next round of tax reform, serious consideration will be given to desi gning a tax structure that is not automatically affected by inflati on.

" Si r, that has been a recommendation that has been proposed by the Leader of the Conservative Party federally, that a tax system be devised that would take into consideration the effects of inflation so that governments would not sit there as the rip -off artists of inflation, the people , and almost the only people who benefit as a result of inflation, Sir, the resol ution in my view is straight forward; it is one of those things that in these days when inflation is such a deep concern on the part of people of this country, it is one of those things that in our view, the effect of taxes on the cost of living, the effect of taxes on inflation, should be examined so that the people of this country will have some idea of who the real rip-off artists are and what is causing the problems that, if left unchecked, will eventually engulf this nation .

MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Mines, MR . GREEN: Well, Mr . Speaker , I•m sorry that I wasn•t here to hear the entire address that was delivered by the Member for Morris because I•m certain that it was an in-depth discussion of the question. However , I 'm able to solace myself with the thought that I probably heard much of it before - and I don •t say that unkindly .

The honourable member has from time to time delivered his remarks relative to this subject in an articulate way, and although when I walked into the Chamber he was referring to hard, cold , statistical facts , I'm sure that they would be facts which he would use to buttress his position that one of the main factors in the risin g costs of living has to do with taxation and the effect of taxes on the price of goods .

And this has been done from ti me to time by the Member for Lake side as well, who does it in a slig htly different stype but one which I find just as articulate , by referring to the cost of hamburgers , and the cost of a loaf of bread, and the cost of a chocolate bar , and the cost of a glass of milk, etc. , all of which, Mr. Speaker , I think is good rhetoric - and again, I don 't say that unkindly - and I don•t believe that there is any real argument that all taxation, that all taxation with the exception, Mr .

Speaker , of that taxation which is con fiscatory in nature , and there are such taxes; for instance , estate taxes are really a tax which cannot be passed on to any purchaser , and in my view there are certain taxes on land itself, on land itself, not includin g improvem ents , which cannot be passed on to any subsequent purchaser .

But by and large , whether it be an income tax, whether it be a sales tax, whether it be a tax on gasol ine , whether it be a tax on even liquor or tobacco , that eventually the people who are paying the taxes are seeking the wages with which to buy the commodities that the tax is imposed on, and if it happens to be a strictl y purchaser commodity like liquor , a person needs the in come to buy it and it works its way down in ei ther collective bargaining or other economic activity. I don •t think that anybody has ever denied this .

From time to time when I have spoken, when I spoke on the sales tax when it was brought into the House , I said that the sales tax is not a tax much different than the income tax; that the income tax, that the real reason that I preferred the sales tax to the income tax - and anybody can look at the address that I made at the time and I made it rig ht following the Member for Assin iboia - I sai d is that the bureaucracy to collect the income tax we already have; the sales tax bureaucracy, si nce it is new, we will have to start from the beginning, and not only will we have a government bureaucracy set up to collect it, but we will make every merchant, every restaurant dealer , every tailor, every shoemaker, I think, at that time , a part of his day, some number of hours of his productive time , would be used to collect the

May 2, 1974 3063 RESOLUTION 11 (MR .

GREEN Cont•d) ••••• sales tax, but that if one looked at the effects of the two taxes, whether it be income tax or sales tax - and I•l l repeat what I said then - that in the last analysis it becomes a tax on the power to consume , because the power to consume ultimately is the power that is seized upon by a government in collect ing taxes; and if it's an income tax it merely means that the mechanism isn't as dire ct , that the person whose income is taxed, whether it be doctor or lawyer or a steel worker or a plumber or a professor , that the first thing that happens when his taxes go up is that he says that he does not want to live any worse than he lived the day before, and he wants an increase in wages , and generally one follows the other.

The person in the weakest position is the one , of course , without any bargaining position whatsoever , The state general ly steps in and whether it be social assi stance , whether it be pensions , whether it be minim um wages, efforts are made to also put these people in a position whereby they catch up with the taxes which are being levi ed, So I don't think that anybody could find fault with the argument that to the extent that there is taxation, that that taxation must find its way into consumer prices , I don•t think that that is a challengeable proposition. But, Mr .

Speaker , we have to look at two things , and one of those two things the Member for Morris has already indicated his preference for and I think that we have to give him credit for it, despite the fact that I can•t bring myself to agree with him. He has indicated that, rather than continue with the form of cycle that we are going through now, that rather than this slippery slope which he would , I think properly, which he would want to characterize it as , that he would prefer that we have a depressi on, I think that he has put that on several occas ions . Now, Mr .

Speaker , I think that most of the people in this House have experienced the two; there are some that haven't but most have experienced the two . We have a very bad inflationary si tuation at the present time . We have commodity price increases which are frightful to the consumer , We have problems which those commodity price increases create in terms of disa ppoin tment , in terms of not being able to maintain what one has thought would be an expected standard of liv ing as a result of the income that they make , and all of these proble ms, Mr. Speaker, I would not want to minimize the seriousness of them.

But, Mr . Speaker, let us go back to what was the alternative and the one which the Honourable Member for Morris has indicated that he is prepared to live with, because although I was very young, I do not forget what occurred during the great Depression between the years 1932 - I was too young to remember that - but the Depression lasted well into the early 1940's and I was not too young to remember that. Now, Mr. Speaker, those were the good old days of low prices, I think that a quart of mil k was ei ght cents . I think that a loaf of bread was less than a nickel.

Mr , Speak er, I know that the people that I worked with in a retail department store in North Winnipeg earned a salary, for 50 lwurs of work, of $9 .0 0 a week. This is a married man with childr en. I know that my father, who was a coal dealer - and that was real hard work - he paid his workers, those were the people that drove in the truck with him, $1 2. 00 a week for working six days a week from probably 8: 00 in the morning until 7:00 at night , and those people were lucky.

Those people were lucky because they at least had work and they earned an income , There were numerous people on the block in which I lived on Se lkirk Avenue, the ne ighbours to the right and to the left of me were on Social Assistance , and I want to tell the Member for Pembina that these were not lazy, good-f or- nothing people . These were people who were skil led in many cases, who wanted to work, who were dying to work , who couldn 't stand being on the dole , but there was no work available for them. Now, Mr .

Speaker , when we are therefore lis tening to the Honourable Member for lVbrris • argument, the one thing that we have to bear in mind is that he would prefer the alternativ e, and has identified that alternat ive, that he would prefer that we go into a depression rather than contin ue on our present course. Now, Mr . Speaker , I•m not interested in con tin uing on our present course without any hope of doing something about it, I prefer neither inflation nor depression. But , Mr .

Speaker , I could not accept the fact that it would be preferable that we lived under depression circumstances rather than living under the present inflation circumstan ces, because the present inflation cir cumstances, as bad as they are, in no way, Mr. Speaker , do I accept that they are worse than the kind of si tuation that we had between 1933 and 1940, .. I•m sorry,

306 4 May 2, 1974 RESOLUTION 11 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR . JORGENS ON: I hesitate to interrupt the honourable member but he has identified one of the alternatives that I cited when I spoke on this some weeks ago, and I wonder if he would identify the other altern ative . It's not just a co ntinuation of the present course but the ultimate of the continuation of the present course that worr ies me. MR . GREEN: Yes , Mr . Speaker. I think that the honourable member indicated that the present course leads to totalita rianism, so I also remember that.

Now, of course, I ask the honourable member, I ask --( Interje ction)-- Mr . Speaker • • • MR . SPEAKER: Order plea se. Order. MR . GREEN: The honourable member says, have I lived under totalita riani sm? I haven't. I have read -- Mr . Speaker , I have read a great deal' about it ••• MR . SPEAKE R: Order ple ase . Again I'm harried by Harry, and if he won't cease he'll have to leave . The Ho nourable Minister . MR . GREEN: I wish he'd stay. The fact is , Mr . Speaker , that I would expect that the honourable member's parents , and most people in this Chamber, their parents came from totalitarianism systems.

My father lived under the Czar, which was a totalitarian system, and he left the Old Country during the Civil War in what is now the Soviet Union. At that time it wasn't the Soviet Union, you know. One day i t was --(Interje ction) -- No , Mr. Speaker. Mr . Speaker , the fact is , when my father left, the Whites occupied his vi llage one day, the Reds occupied his vil lage the next day, followed by the Whites . But, Mr . Speaker , I assure the honourable member that my father would have left Czarist Russia to escape totalita rianism, and I don't want to go beyond that.

The honourable member says that he sees the present system leading to totalita rianism.

I have to ask him to accept my si ncerity in that I do not believe that the path that we are taking leads to totalitar ianism, and therefore I am not prepared to say that I am willing to accept a depre ssion rather than contin ue along the present path, but I do think that I don't make an unfair position if I say that we have to know that the Honourable Member for Morris sees, as a better alternative to the trends that he sees today, which he says will lead to totalitarianism and which I feel will not, that he sees as a preferable situation a depre ssi on, a serious depression such as we have all had some memory of.

So that's the first point that I want to make with regard to his speech. The next point that I want to make is that he has dealt entirel y with the issu e of taxation.

Now we all know, and he has been fair about this, he has said that taxation, the government needs money and that he is not suggesti ng that there shouldn't be some form of taxation and that for what the government needs money it should go ahead and pass , and therefore I really think that he'S talk ing about the extent of taxation and the extent of what is the other side of the coin, and that is government spending; that really his complaint - and I hope I'm being fair - is that government spending is what leads to inflation, and that government spending therefore has to be recouped through taxation. Now, Mr .

Speaker, if we are to accept that assumption, which I believe is correct , then in order to determine whether the inflation is having an adverse effect on the citizen, one has to determine whether the government spending is improving his position or reducing his position. The honourable member has spoken on the assumption that one can determine to what extent taxation has inflated price s, and I suppose that a very sim ple calculation can be made .

If we took the Manitoba budget at $800 million, if we added the federal budget as it relates to the province of Manitoba or , to do it more si mply , if we took all of the svurces of taxation and added them up, let's say right across the country, federal, provincial, municipal, took the entire spending, deducted the taxation level, we would be able to determine what the cost of living would be by ju st the spending that doesn't come from government. Now that would be a very crude statistic but it would be a statistic which you could el iminate all that taxes from existi ng price s.

I don 1t know what it would be, but it would be many billions of dollars , I concede that. But when we do that, we would have to deduct from the benefits that society achieves all of those things which are now paid for out of taxation, and then, Mr . Speaker, we would have to add to his cost of living the cost of supplying those needs. Well, let's take one that the Honourable Member for Morris would be satisfied with immediatel y . We would not have a police force , so those people who wanted protection would have to , Mr . Speaker , and I believe the honourable member , they would have to buy -- they

May 2, 1974 3065 RESOLUTION 11 (MR . GREEN Cont•d) , , .•• would have to do on e of two things , I mean, they would have to set up protective systems in their houses, together with bars on the windows , together with guards around the door , together with all forms of necessary protection to supply what is now supplied publicl y. And, Mr . Speaker , the cost of doing that would be far more than the amount of taxation that they now contribute to the police force , so that would increase the cost of living because that level of government spending was removed.

Now, we no longer have a fire department so we have to do such things as are necessary to protect ourselves against fire -- (Interjection )-- Well, Mr . Speaker, we would have to do such things as are necessary to protect ourselves against fire . We would have to provide ourselves with the water . We would have to provide -- and we would have to add that to the cost of livin g that we have drast ically lowered by removing all forms of taxation. Now we have a wonderful -- now we have eliminated all of this cost of living and all we have to do -- Well, Mr . Speaker, I want to develop my theme.

I think that the honourable members will see very clearly where I am going and what's going to happen to their cost of living, but I•ll leave it to another night . MR . SPEAKER: The hour of adjournment having arri ved, the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 10:00 a. m. tomorrow morning . (Fri day)

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-112
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 112.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	21e476459ad42402742de2081653b66170a4c800

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).