Manitoba Hansard — 10 March 2022 (Sitting 21B, 42nd Legislature, 4th Session)

42-4-21b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXVI No. 21B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, March 10, 2022 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon.

Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon. Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg, Hon. Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott, Hon. Assiniboia PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan, Hon. Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib.

LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle, Hon. Turtle Mountain PC REYES, Jon, Hon. Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew, Hon.

Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon. Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC Vacant Fort Whyte Vacant Thompson

621 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, March 10, 2022 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: Good afternoon, everybody. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 19–The Beneficiary Designation (Retirement, Savings and Other Plans) Amendment Act Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Good afternoon, Madam Speaker. I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Friesen), that Bill 19, The Beneficiary Designation (Retirement, Savings and Other Plans) Amendment Act, be now read for a first time. Motion presented. Mr.

Goertzen: I'm pleased to introduce this bill to the Legislature when a substitute decision maker is acting for a person who cannot manage their own affairs and transferring assets to another financial in stitution or moving an RRSP proceeds, the subsequent RRSP or RIF or TFSA into a new plan. When a new plan is formed, beneficiaries desig - nated under the old plan are not transferred to the new plan. Since the person no longer has the capacity to designate beneficiaries, the original intentions of that person cannot be fulfilled.

These amendments would enable certain legal representatives to carry over the beneficiary desig - nation from the original plan to the new plan when a plan is renewed, replaced or converted, ensuring that the original intention of the plan's creator is fulfilled. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Committee reports? TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Economic Development, Investment and Trade): I'm pleased to table the third quarter financial statements for the Communities Economic Development Fund. Madam Speaker: Ministerial statements?

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Kidney Health Awareness Hon. Reg Helwer (Minister of Labour, Consumer Protection and Government Services): Madam Speaker, March is recognized as Kidney Health Month, and today, March 10th, is World Kidney Day. The message remains the same each and every year, and it is to raise public awareness of the im - portance of kidneys to our overall health and to reduce the frequency and impact of kidney disease. Early discovery is critical for kidney health and early intervention, especially among high-risk groups.

Kidneyhealth.ca, developed by the Manitoba Renal Program, is a website with great information. During our family's very personal journey through the kidney donor and transplant system, we met many caring health -care professionals and have many thanks for their knowledge and strength. We have recognized local heroes like Luke Hatcher whose family made the very difficult but extremely generous decision to donate Luke's organs and tissues in 2019.

We also recognize Green Shirt Day that recog - nizes the impact that Logan Boulet had on Canadians and Manitobans who went to sites such as signupforlife.ca to regis ter their decisions to donate their organs and tissues. Here in Manitoba, there is a dedicated team of physicians, nurses and staff with Transplant Manitoba and the Kidney Health Clinic who provide the highest level of care and access to quality information for those living with kidney disease. Please show your support by registering with Manitoba's online tissue and organ donor registry at signupforlife.ca.

As of March 3rd, 60,059 Manitobans had registered their decision. November of 2019 was the 50th a nniversary of the first kidney transplant in Manitoba; 2022 is a big year too for the signupforlife.ca registry –10 years of online service. To mark the anniversary, the goal is to add 10,000 new registrations by December 31st. Please to to signupforlife.c a and let your inten - tions known. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

622 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 Matt Forsyth Mr. Nello Altomare (Transcona): Madam Speaker, today I rise in this House to pay homage to a Transcona family that knows first-hand the ravages of drug addiction. As an MLA, I've been to two vigils honouring those lost to addictions, and at both vigils my friends Maureen was in attendance, there to ensure the memory of her son, Matt, is not lost. The most recent vigil was this past Sunday, on Black Balloon Day. In speaking with Maureen, I be- gan to realize the pain and hurt she lives with daily and wanted to share a mother's memory of her son.

Matt Forsyth was born December 5th, 1988, raised in Transcona. He struggled with drugs when he was in high school but he was determined to do better by his family and was able to enter the Behavioural Health Foundation program in Selkirk. After high school, Matt got his Red Seal in industrial roofing and did really well. Roofing is hard, labour-intensive work, and, as a res ult, Matt hurt his back. He was prescribed OxyContin and became addicted, eventually having to buy them off the streets. After more ups and downs, he overdosed on November 28th, 2018.

Maureen wants us to know that Matt was somebody's son, somebody's brother, somebody's grandson, somebody's father, somebody's nephew, somebody's cousin, somebody's friend and his life mattered. Now Derek, Matt's younger brother, suffers from addiction, is on methadone. The result of this? Huge costs to get the help Derek nee ds in Vancouver because the wait is too long for treatment here in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, Maureen wants us to know that she will be tireless in her advocacy, tireless in her love for her boys and relentless in advocating for drug ad- diction treatment close to home for Manitoba families.

And I thank you, Madam Speaker. Stonewall Art Group Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, I am honoured to stand before you today to acknow - ledge the showcasing of the Stonewall Art Group preservation of history in paint. The group consists of Stonewall artists show - casing their creative fair while preserving parts of the town's history in painted

interpretations. Preserving the history of a place gives this com - munity unique character. Artwork carries a special identity in terms of originality and the historical heritage. Very few people stop to reflect on the past and learn about heritage. Therefore, the group is contributing their talents to a local heritage project with a commitment to provide 40 pieces of artwork. Half of these pieces are now completed and hung on display at a local arts centre to allow us a richer under- standing of history.

The group feels this history is important 'becu' it connects to 'pecific' times, places and events in our collective past. In their display they highlight some of the treasured limestone buildings that remain standing and ones that are gone. They also pay tribute to some of the builders and heroes through portraits. The artists have been working individually during the pandemic and continued to forge forward with the heritage project which kept them connected. The artists' donations are an amazing gift for the centre's exhibit and the community. These contributions can be remembered and honoured.

I commend the Stonewall Art Group on pre - serving this historical history for future generations. Thank you, Madam Speaker. St. Mary the Protectress Millennium Villa Mr. Diljeet Brar (Burrows): My heart sinks when I look at the atrocities that Ukraine is facing lately, but representing a community with a rich Ukrainian heri- tage makes me feel proud. I feel honoured to have the opportunity to recog - nize the contributions of St. Mary the Protectress Millennium Villa in this Chamber.

This was a project which started with an initial purpose of raising funds for an auditorium but later building a senior affordable housing complex. Millennium Villa has been transforming lives since 1968. The villa is a five- storey, 55-plus rental apartment, built with community, comfort and secur - ity in mind. During my recent visit with the villa residents, I was able to speak with them. Through their heartful conversations, I was able to understand the depth to

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 623 which Ukrainian Manitobans are hurting for the attack on their identity and homeland. The villa residents have been making great en - deavors to raise funds for Ukraine. Just recently, they have donated over $4,700 to the Red Cross refugee campaign and Canada-Ukraine Foundation.

They support t he creation of an all- party com - mittee to direct Manitoba's response to the crisis in Ukraine and strengthen our call on this government to match all donations made by Manitobans, up to $5 million. * (13:40) They request the support of general public and the government to help them raise money for Ukraine. They want to offer suites to Ukrainian refu- gees, but need the provincial government to offer rental assistance supports. Now is the time to show our solidarity and sup- port for our Ukrainian friends in Manitoba. Ukrainian Manitobans need, want and deserve our full support at this time.

Madam Speaker, I would ask all the members of this House to stand in solidarity with our Ukrainian community and support them during these times of despair. Dyakuyu. I Love to Read Month Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Tyndall Park): I rise today to talk a little bit about I Love to Read Month, and what made this past February so special. First and foremost, Tyndall Park is home to seven elementary schools. We have Garden Grove, Meadows West, Waterford Springs, Prairie Rose, Stanley Knowles, Shaughnessy Park and, of course, Tyndall Park school.

Now, this year's theme was reading around the world, and one of the days it landed on National Flag of Canada Day, so the students taught me lots about different countries, languages and our own national flag. I also wanted to share that the three most popular books this year were:

(1) The Orange Shirt Day, a true story that inspired the movement of Orange Shirt Day;

(2) Curious George, a silly monkey who gets into some trouble during a parade, and ultimately gets to meet the mayor; and

(3) Uniquely Wired, which is about how a child who has autism and how they have many special skills and that fair does not always mean equal. Madam Speaker, whenever I meet with these classrooms, I try to talk about democracy, and I do this by having a vote about what their favourite class is. Sometimes it's art, sometimes it's math, but the majority of the time it's unanimously gym class. And I've been told to relay to this government that there are some grade 2s that really believe that gym class should be three hours long.

And their argument for this debate is that it would be good exercise, it would be good for their mental health and more fun, Madam Speaker. We know that there is benefit of getting students of all ages involved in politics. And I know my nephews, whose classes I also got to read to, have begun that participation process in the political process–and they don't really have much of a choice, with a grandpa and an auntie being politicians here in Canada.

But, Madam Speaker, I think it's important that us MLAs are in close contact with our respective schools, and I want to thank all of the schools in Tyndall Park for allowing me the opportunity to share so many special occasions with them. ORAL QUESTIONS Transfer of ICU Patients to Ontario Government Knowledge of Transfer Plans Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Premier and the PCs continue to mislead Manitobans.

They've had a week to answer the questions on ICU patient transfers, and the best that they can come up with is that either, yes, the Premier misled Manitobans, or, alternatively, s he did not know what was happening under her watch during her time as minister of Health. Now, that's not a good reflection on this govern - ment. So, I'll given them one more chance this week. Can they answer the question? On which day did the Premier f ind out about the plan to transfer Manitoba ICU patients out of province? Hon.

Heather Stefanson (Premier): Madam Speaker, before I address the issue of the–indicated by the Leader of the Op position, I'm pleased to indicate for the House that today we are committing an extra $500,000 towards humanitarian relief in Ukraine.

624 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 This'll be a total of $650,000 that will be flowed through the Canada-Ukraine Foundation. Madam Speaker, to address the issue of the Leader of the Opposition, I believe we addressed this yesterday. Of course, we know that it's not politi- cians–I know the member opposite believes that it's politicians that are respon sible for patient flow. We know that it's not; it's doctors. It's unfor tunate that he doesn't know how the health-care system works. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question.

Surgical and Diagnostic Services Timeline for Backlog Clearance Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): We all know what's happening in the health-care system right now, Madam Speaker. Patients are waiting longer and longer to get the surgeries and the tests that they need; 160,000 Manitobans are waiting in pain right now, Madam Speaker. That's a record of failure, especially considering fewer surgeries are being done each month that the PCs stay in office. Their only answer is highway medicine.

They want to send surgery candidates to the United States of America to get surgeries instead of investing in health care right here at home. Invest in Manitoba nurses, that's what we say on this side of the House. Will the Premier just tell us a date when Manitobans can expect the surgery backlog to be cleared? Hon.

Heather Stefanson (Premier): Well, Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question, and I believe I indicated yesterday for the House that the surgical and diagnostic task force is in the process of– and they gave an update on Friday –they're in the process of developing that plan and we look forward to releasing that information very soon. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr.

Kinew: Madam Speaker, it's sad to hear the Premier confirm the continuance of highway medi- cine here in our province, but we know that highway medicine is happening within Manitoba's borders, as well. Hundreds of Manitobans are being sent hun - dreds of kilometres away from their friends and family and supports which could help them through recovery. Now, we know that we've seen seniors from Winnipeg sent to Flin Flon, seniors from Stonewall sent to Crystal City, and in each of these stories is a story of dignity being lost and suffering being continued. Will the Premier be accountable?

Will the Premier set a date to stop these patient transfers? Mrs. Stefanson: I think it's important that–and I want to thank the Diagnos tic and Surgical Recovery Task Force for the work that they did. In fact, it was posted on the Internet last Friday, Madam Speaker, on their website. And what Manitobans want to see is that we're making im provements and making headway when it comes to surgical and diagnostic backlogs. So, I want to inform the House today that, CT scans: the wait- list has improved by 12 per cent, Madam Speaker.

Ultrasounds in Manitoba have improved by 16 per cent and MRIs have improved by 13 per cent. We recog nize that there's more work to do and we're committed to making sure that we deliver on these services. Madam Speaker: The hon ourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Hydro Rate Increases Cost of Living Concerns Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Surgery wait times? Going up, Madam Speaker. Let her say surgeries in her next answer. We also know what else is going up, Madam Speaker: the cost of gas is rising. Life is getting more and more expensive.

Families are feeling the pinch – not that anyone on the other side of the House – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –could relat e. The Premier isn't doing anything to help families, neither is the PC Cabinet, nor caucus. But the Premier is not only not listening, they're actively making the situation worse. As energy prices get more expensive, they keep raising our hydro rates. That's one thing the Premier could do to help families: it would be to stop raising hydro rates. Will the Premier take action today? Will she stop raising hydro rates like Brian Pallister did?

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 625 Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): Well, Madam Speaker, the fact of the matter is when the NDP was in gov ernment they increased the debt of Manitoba Hydro. We are now here having to clean up the mess that they created, Madam Speaker. You know what? I'd ask him, what is his plan? What is his plan to deal with this issue and to make life more affordable for Manitobans? What is his plan? His plan was to raise the PST on the backs of Manitobans. Let's not forget the legacy of the previous NDP gov ernment on affordability for Manitobans, Mrs.–Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: Our plan is simple, Madam Speaker: keep hydro rates low. * (13:50) Every Manitoban is seeing the cost of living go up. The price of gas is–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –up. The price of milk is up. The price of diapers is up, Madam Speaker. And it's more expen - sive to heat your home because of this PC gov ern- ment's decisions. Everyone remembers the emails they got from Hydro this winter. Our bills are skyrocketing. Manitobans need a break.

Government can't do every- thing, but they should at least be able to help out a little. Will the Premier take action today? Will she stop raising hydro rates? Mrs. Stefa nson: Madam Speaker, I ap preciate any question from the Leader of the Op position when it comes to affordability for Manitobans. Let me remind members opposite and all Manitobans the things that we have done to make life more affordable for Manitobans . We indexed the basic personal amount and personal income tax brackets. We reduced retail sales tax from 8 per cent to 7 per cent after they raised it, Madam Speaker.

The retail sales tax exemption for personal services, pre- paring wills, purchasing home insurance, preparing personal income tax returns. And I know I'm running out of time, but there's so much more we have done to make life more affordable for Manitobans, and we will continue to make life more affordable for Manitobans in the upcoming bud- get, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: Let's talk about what the Premier and Brian Pallister have been up to, and the impact on families right now.

If you drink milk, milk is more expensive because of orders signed by this govern ment. If you have to drive to school, that's more expensive because of this PC gov ernment. And yes, if you have to heat your home, which every Manitoban has to do, that is more expensive because of this PC government. The cost of living is going up. Manitobans need some help. Can government please respond and assist folks at least a little. Hydro bills are too hard–too high. Will the Premier stop raising hydro rates today? Mrs.

Stefanson: Well, again, Madam Speaker, I ap - preciate the question on affordability for Manitobans because it allows me the op portunity to remind Manitobans of how we have made life more affordable for Manitobans. In fact, on the edu cation property tax, Madam Speaker, we reduced that and gave back almost $250 million to Manitoba taxpayers, Manitoba– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: And, Madam Speaker, the budget is coming soon. Stay tuned for more exciting news to make life more 'affeordable' for Manitobans. Awarding of Government Contract Conflict of Interest Concerns Ms.

Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): Well, just like Brian Pallister, the Premier thinks that she can play by her own rules. In 2019, while sitting on Treasury Board, the Premier helped award a $23 -million contract to Exchange Income Cor poration. It turns out this company does millions of dollars of business with her family member. I repeat: the Premier had a direct hand in giving a contract to a comp any that does millions of dollars of business with her husband. Does the Premier believe giving contracts to companies that do business with your family falls within the law?

626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): Madam Speaker, this is rather disappointing of the members opposite to go down this route about, you know, taking shots at family members of members of this Chamber. Madam Speaker–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: –yesterday, the Leader of the Opposition demonstrated how h e has no idea, you know, how the health- care system works in our province. And now, the member opposite is proving that she has no idea how banking works.

It's unbecoming of members opposite who want to be part of a government when they don't understand how to run health care and they don't know how to run an economy, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms. Fontaine: The Premier sat on a Cabinet commit- tee that gave a $23 -million contract to Exchange Income Cor poration. That's a fact. It's in a press release. At the same time, the Premier's family was working at Exchange Income Cor poration on stock deals worth more than $170 million. That's also a fact. This is a clear conflict.

The Premier should not be involved in giving contracts to companies that work with her husband. Why didn't the Premier– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Ms. Fontaine: –why didn't the Premier recuse herself from awarding this contract? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: I need to be able to hear. Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Economic Development, Investment and Trade): Well, Madam Speaker, I mean, this is the lowest of gutter politics that I've ever seen in this Chamber. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Cullen: Madam Speaker, I don't know what the opposition has against business, the business commu- nity, and it's the business com munity that provides assets and–to many companies here and doing busi - ness in Manitoba. This accusa tion is not based on facts. I would just hope that the NDP would do their homework and not make up untruths like this, bring - ing this forward and making accusations that are un - founded. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplementary. Ms. Fontaine: This is the second time that the Premier has been found to break the rules.

Manitoba's conflict of interest act states ministers must recuse them selves from any gov ernment decision if they have a dependent –like a spouse–who has financial interest in the matter. The Premier served on Cabinet when a $23-million contract was awarded to EIC. At the same time, her husband was doing millions of dollars of business with EIC. That's a conflict. Why did she not recuse herself from this award decision-making processing? Mr. Cullen: Well, Madam Speaker, here we go again: accusations coming forward with no grounding evi - dence of any wrongdoing here at all, clearly baseless.

We've got great Manitoba companies doing great business here employing people. In fact, the questions that the members should be asking, about unemploy - ment rates in Manitoba. We have the lowest un em- ployment rate in the country. It's because of busi- nesses doing busi ness in Manitoba that people are working. Awarding of Government Contract Conflict of Interest Concerns MLA Malaya Marcelino (Notre Dame): The Premier was part of the lead gov ernment agency that gave Exchange Income Cor poration a $23- million contract, and I'll table the gov ernment's own press release.

At the same time, the Premier's family was doing millions of dollars of busi ness with that same com - pany, and I'll table the docu ments that show the $170 million in business. Manitobans expect their leaders to play by the same set of rules that we all follow. This is a conflict and–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. MLA Marcelino: –the Premier should not have participated in giving that contract.

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 627 Why did the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) not follow the rules? Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Just because the op position brings forward false claims and just because they repeat it doesn't mean that it's true, Madam Speaker. And in this situation it is certainly not true and that's been explained to the members opposite several times. Now, if they want to find out what true conflict is they wouldn't have to go very far. They could pro - bably go to their caucus office and they could dust off something called the Tiger Dams report.

And that would show, Madam Speaker, where we actually had an investigation on the NDP over several years where not only did things not go to Treasury Board, there was actually no proper documentation, no expenditure authority. But they just gave money to their friends because that's how the NDP did it. I encourage the member opposite, who is relative- ly new, to go blow off the dust off the Tiger Dams report and then you can see what true conflict is. * (14:00) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Notre Dame, on a supplementary question.

MLA Marcelino: The Premier sits on the C abinet committee that gave Exchange Income Cor poration $23 million of Manitobans' money. At the same time, her family was working for the same company, doing millions in business. Those are the facts. They can't be denied or dis - missed. This is a clear conflict– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. MLA Marcelino: –and it is wrong. The Premier, of all people, should know that. Why did the Premier not follow the rules? Why does she break the conflict laws? Mr. Goertzen: Well, Mad am Speaker, two weeks into session, and the opposi tion's out of gas.

They're going back to the same things they try to do. They try to disparage families. They try to disparage busi ness. They make things up on the floor of the House. They pretend that they're the conflict officer. They pretend that they're judges, Madam Speaker. They're none of them. They are people in op position who are going to stay in opposition a long time if that's the best that they can do. Madam Speaker: The honour able le ader–the hon- ourable member for Notre Dame, on a final sup ple- mentary. MLA Marcelino: First, the Premier forgot about selling $31 million of real estate. It was an oversight.

Now it looks like that the Premier forgot her family was helping a company do $170 million worth of business right as she gave that company a $23-million contract. It's wrong, and it's a clear conflict of interest. The Premier should know that if a minister's family has a financial interest in a company, she shouldn't be involved in giving them contracts. Why did the Premier ignore the conflict rules that all Manitobans are expected to follow? Mr. Goertzen: The member opposite clearly doesn't understand conflict legislation, Madam Speaker. She's not the commissioner. She's not the conflict–interest.

She's not a judge. What I do understand, Madam Speaker, is that if the op position continues to want to go down a dis - paraging road, they might think that's it's hurting us. They may think–they go home, they go, oh, wow, we really got one on the Tories today. They're not hurting us. They're hurting their own chances because Manitobans expect a gov ernment who–opposition who wants to try to be gov ernment. They expect them to act like it. They expect them to try to actually show that they could some day manage a government, Madam Speaker. They can't. They don't have real questions.

They don't have real solutions. They've got nothing but smears, and they're going to sit there for a long time throwing those smears if they want to, Madam Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: I think we need to take democracy a little more seriously than what sometimes happens here. Yesterday, I had to call order 29 times in a–during oral questions. I shouldn't have to do that. This should be a better display of how demo cracy actually works to all the people that pay attention to what's happening here and count on everybody here to do what is right and demonstrate that democracy does work.

We can see it doesn't work in other places. We need to rise above it and set the bar much higher than what has been happening over the last couple weeks here in this Chamber.

628 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 So I'm asking for everybody's co- operation, please. Provincial Nominee Program Fee Waiver for Ukrainian Refugees Mr. Mark Wasyliw (Fort Garry): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for that reminder, and I hope the government certainly takes my question seriously and gives a serious answer to it. We need to take action. There is a crisis in Ukraine today, and millions are fleeing for their very lives. We have called for applicant fees to be waived for Ukrainians applying through Prov incial Nominee Program.

People who are fleeing this conflict shouldn't be forced to pay fees. Getting rid of it is the right thing to do. Will the minister do what's right and remove application fees for Ukrainians coming to Manitoba today? Hon. Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): Madam Speaker, always happy to speak on the success of the Manitoba Provincial Nominee Program, which a PC gov ern- ment created back in 1998 by then former MLA, Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson.

Madam Speaker, we know that immigration is a crucial enabler for economic growth and economic recovery, and we'll continue to welcome many to our province through our Provincial Nominee Program. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Garry, on a supplementary question. Invasion of Ukraine Request for All-Party Committee Mr. Mark Wasyliw (Fort Garry): Two point five million Ukrainians right now are refugees living out- side their country. Thousands of civilians, in cluding children, are getting shelled and slaughtered.

And this government can't sit here today and waive a $500 fee to give safe passage to these refugees. That's just chilling. Madam Speaker, the Ukraine Canadian Congress, chamber of commerce and economic develop Winnipeg have written a joint letter to the Premier urging that they work col laboratively to allow those organizations to help settle and support displaced Ukrainians. The organizations are calling for collabo- ration. We are, too. Will the gov ernment support our call for an all- party committee to help people of Ukraine today? Hon.

Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): I want to thank my depart- ment for last year's record number of nominations processed last year: a record number of just under 6,300 applications. Also glad to hear, as all Manitobans are, the successful applications were pro- cessed at six months or less, opposed to three years under the NDP. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Garry, on a final supplementary. Mr. Wasyliw: Manitobans are watching this moment. Manitobans are watching and hearing the minister's non-response.

Manitobans are watching that this gov- ernment has politicized this issue and refused to join with the other political parties in this Chamber for a non-partisan all-party committee. They're seeing this gov ernment refuse to work with the Ukrainian and busi ness communities on this issue. I will ask: Will the Premier support our call for an all-party committee to support the Ukrainian people, and will you do that today? Hon.

Heather Stefanson (Premier): Madam Speaker, we recognize the hardships that this war has caused on the Ukrainian people, and we have stood by them and we have worked with the Ukrainian Canadian Congress towards that end. Today, we announced an extra $500,000 towards humanitarian aid directly in Ukraine, Manitoba –in Ukraine, Madam Speaker. And, you know, I know – the member opposite, you know, he shouldn't be playing politics with this; he should be celebrating that we are offering more money to those in Ukraine for humanitarian aid.

I know that that's what Manitobans, you know, of Ukrainian descent –that's what all Manitobans have been asking for. And today we announced yet another $500,000, for a total of $650,000. We recognize that there's more work t o be done. We are working with the federal gov ernment with respect to refugees and how we will–and we will open our arms to those refugees, Madam Speaker, from Ukraine. We have indicated that before; we'll continue to do that.

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 629 Post-Secondary Education Tuition Increases Mr. Jamie Moses (St. Vital): This Stefard son [phonetic] government is cutting our colleges and uni- versities. And they have said they will implement a regressive tuition legislation that removes tuition caps and forces students to p ay different tuition fees. This government fee hikes makes it harder for Manitobans to get good educa tions, and they're just interfering even more with these institutions. Will the minister stop interfering and stop increasing tuition for students? Hon.

Jon Reyes (Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Immigration): Madam Speaker, as the members know–as the member knows, as of yester - day, the De partment of Advanced Edu cation is host - ing forums of the future of college and university fees. Institutional leaders and student groups have been invited to weigh in. The con sultations will focus on things like affordability and accessibility for students, financial stability for in stitutions and high- quality programming. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honour able member for St. Vital, on a supplementary question. * (14:10) Mr.

Moses: Madam Speaker, tuition hikes are hurting students and families. In other juris dictions, where tuition was differ - entiated by area of study, it simply failed. There weren't better outcomes for students, and it meant that students and their families had to pay more for an edu- cation. This is just one of the unintended con- sequences of this government's poorly considered and conceived approach. Will the minister stop increasing tuition and repeal bill 33? Mr.

Reyes: Madam Speaker, we know that investing in our post -secondary in stitutions and students are crucial enablers for economic recovery and economic growth. Yesterday's consultations and more consulta- tions will help us draw the path of success together to help grow our province now and into the future. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Vital, on a final supplementary. Mr. Moses: Madam Speaker, funding to uni versities and colleges have been cut year after year after year after year. Creating different levels of tuition does a disservice to Manitoba.

And as for con sultation, im portant stak eholders such as faculty associations are not even being in - cluded and consulted in the imple mentation of the government's legislation. Manitoban students want to get a good education, but they can't when this PC government keeps making Manitoban edu cation more expensive and makes it more expensive to go to college and university. Will the minister commit today to stop increasing tuition for students? Mr.

Reyes: While the member wastefully asks non - pertinent questions –as waste is what the NDP are good at, Madam Speaker –we will continue to invest in post-secondary education. These are not cuts. Just over $1 billion every year in post -secondary edu cation, $10.3 million to boost ongoing grant money to support nurse seat expansion, Madam Speaker, and $350,000 for the permanent – permanent–expansion at Université de Saint-Boniface bachelor of education program. We know we need more French-immersion teach- ers. He should know; he lives in St. Vital, Madam Speaker. Home-Care Services Constituent Concern Mr.

Dougald Lamont (St. Boniface): Manitoba Liberals are very concerned about a growing crisis in home care. I visited with a senior couple last night in Fort Whyte who have been trying for two years to get their home-care issues addr essed. Apparently, their pre- vious MLA, Brian Pallister, wasn't any use at all. He is paralyzed from the chest down and in a wheelchair. Home Care has been cancelling and won't show up on weekends. She has to move her husband in a sling from his wheelchair to his bed by herself, and they're not pleased that workers aren't vaccinated.

We know from health -care shortages this is widespread. What is this gov ernment going to do to respond immediately to the home-care needs of this couple and so many more like them?

630 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I thank the member from St. Boniface for the question. I can't speak to the specifics of the case that he has brought forward today here in the Chamber, but I would welcome him to bring that forw ard to my de - partment. We would be happy to discuss it with Shared Health. Home care is very im portant to Manitobans who want to stay in their home and receive care, and our government is committed to ensuring the Home Care program provides those services. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St.

Boniface, on a supplementary question. Southern Health Region Staffing Shortage Mr. Dougald Lamont (St. Boniface): Still on health care. Yesterday, we touched on a massive staffing shortage in Southern Health, showing that nearly one in four health-care positions are vacant. I table a March 8th letter from a First Nations resident of Swan Lake to the Health Minister, copied to me, expressing concerns about access to health care at the Lorne Memorial Hospital.

Some patients who are seniors are waiting up to five weeks for an ap - pointment and, despite living next to a hospital, there are no ambulances, which means people living just down the street have waited over an hour to get help. They've reque sted that the Health Minister join them at a community meeting on April 18th at 1 p.m. in Swan Lake. It's Easter Monday, and I'm going. Will the minister of the –Health and the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) join us? Hon.

Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I do want to remind members in the House that it was our govern ment that committed $1.18 billion in 2022 for COVID -19 costs, $6.98 billion overall funding –an increase of $156 million from last year: the largest Health budget in Manitoba history. We are working with our clinical preven tative services plan: $812 million, Madam Speaker, to create services outside of the Winnipeg region in rural and northern and remote com munities so that individuals can receive the care close to home.

We will continue to work with our stake holders and our partners in those communities. Madam Speaker: The honour able member for Tyndall Park, on a final supplementary. Housing Accessibility Upgrades Programs Available for Seniors Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Tyndall Park): Madam Speaker, the gov ernment recently split the Health portfolio into two: the De partment of Health and the Department of Seniors and Long- Term Care. Theor - etically, this should mean better care for seniors. Now, one of my constit uents has been doing everything in his power to help his wife be able to remain with him in their home of 45 years.

Her pre- existing condition, however, makes it extremely dif - ficult for her to enter and exit their home without assistance. We have written letters to the minister months ago regarding some financial help regarding having a ramp installed. However, no progress has been made. Madam Speaker, is there any prov incial funding available for seniors needing upgrades to be able to remain in their homes? Hon. Scott Johnston (Minister of Seniors and Long-Term Care): Thank you to my hon ourable friend for the question.

Madam Speaker, stakeholders that we have been visiting with have one common theme, and that is to suggest that seniors stay in their homes for as long as possible. And that's a recom mendation that this gov- ernment is taking to heart and will continue to try to ensure that we are able to ac commodate that and accomplish that. I had–I'd indicated into the House earlier, I will be bringing forward the recom mendations of the Stevenson report when I am able, based on blackout, and there are a number of concerns that have been expressed.

I've receiv ed cor respondence from the Leader of the Liberal Party– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Mental Health and Addiction Treatment Services Pathway to Health Report–Five-Year Road Map Mr. Shannon Martin (McPhillips): On February 17th, 2022, the Minister of Mental Health and Com munity Wellness released the pathway to mental health report, a blueprint for an integrated, responsible mental health system.

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 631 Can the minister share how this road map was assembled and its impact on Manitobans? Hon. Sarah Guillemard (Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness): I do want to take a moment to thank the member for McPhillips for that wonderful question. Madam Speaker, after consulting with over 3,000 Manitobans, we were proud to launch our historic five-year road map. This plan addresses those concerns raised through out the con sultation process, and I want to thank everybody who participated. We have heard you clearly.

We have pledged $17.1 million in funding for new services in a ddition to the $23.9 million in funding to support ongoing initiatives. Madam Speaker, we look forward to imple men- ting all of our new initiatives to help support Manitobans. Brandon School Division Cuts to Programs and Staff Mr. Nello Altomare (Transcona): Madam Speaker, the Stefanson gov ernment's cut to edu cation hurt. Brandon School Division is forced to make deep cuts, including over 10 teaching positions, as well as cuts to speech language pathology, psychology, reading recovery.

They are literally cutting supports kids need to recover from pandemic disruption. Why is this gov ernment forcing cuts in Brandon schools? * (14:20) Hon. Wayne Ewasko (Minister of Education and Early Childhood Learning): I'd like to thank my friend from Trans cona for the question because it gives me an op portunity to stand up and speak about funding for our K-to-12 system, Madam Speaker. Unlike the member opposite putting misinforma- tion on the record, I–it gives me the opportunity to put some good news on the record, Madam Speaker.

This year alone, for '22- 23, we're increasing edu cation funding by over $120 million. And, Madam Speaker, that doesn't even count the capital and all the COVID investments that we've made over the last couple years. Mor e good news to come in my next answer. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona, on a supplementary question. Mr. Altomare: The Stefanson gov ernment's cuts to education are doing lasting damage, just like in Seven Oaks and just like in Brand on School Division. They've been forced to cut program co-ordinators who support drug and alcohol edu cation.

This while Brandon is facing an addictions crisis. Shame on this gov ernment. This gov ernment is cutting teachers, cutting reading recovery and they're cutting addictions supports. Why is this minister making such horrible cuts? Mr. Ewasko: Again, I'd like to say I'm thanking the member opposite for the question, but it's unfortunate the member takes this op portunity, as a former educator himself, to put misinformation on the record, Madam Speaker. You know, I just want to also–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Ewasko: –take this op portunity to –because, of course, I haven't had the opportunity yet, but I'm going to thank my predecessor, the member for Spruce Woods (Mr. Cullen), for his hard work on the Educa- tion file, Madam Speaker. It has been a tough couple of years–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Ewasko: –in regards to the pandemic and COVID. And with that, I look forward to continuing to work hard with my education stake holders and part - ners on making sure that we're all working together to student success, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona, on a final supplementary.

Mr. Altomare: So, I'll just provide another real-world example. Brandon school trustee Jim Murray says they have no choice. He says this is coming down from the top. This is because of financial pressure – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Altomare: –they're put in, put in by this crew across the hall. They are doing lasting damage to our schools. Will the minister, then, stop these cuts to schools, not only in Brandon, but throughout Manitoba?

632 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 Mr. Ewasko: It's interesting that the member from Transcona decides to reference or quote just a everyday Manitoban, Madam Speaker. And I'd like to thank the member, actually, for the hard work that he's doing as a school trustee. But that being said, Madam Speaker, again, the misinformation that the member from Transcona continues to put on the record. We're looking at over $320 million in the last two years going to school divi- sions. That's a 17.2 per cent increase to school divi - sions all across this great province of ours, Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, thank you for the op portunity. More information to come. More good news to come from this PC government as we move forward into the spring. Madam Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. PETITIONS Foot-Care Services Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the ci ty of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional health author ity, N-R-H-A, previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lac k of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative A ssembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1, 2022. This petition has been signed by Pat Moore, Juliet Saiki, Tony Parker and many other Manitobans.

Madam Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Mr. Diljeet Brar (Burrows): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional health author ity previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 633 foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1st, 2022. And this petition has been signed by many Manitobans, Madam Speaker. Mr. Ian Bushie (Keewatinook): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional health author ity, the N-R-H-A, previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1, 2022. Petition signed by Kelli Martin, Sandra Hayes, Bailey Ernest and many, many other Manitobans. Road Closures Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Manitoba Infra structure has under taken the closure of all farm-access roads along the North Perimeter Highway, forcing rural residents to drive up to six miles out of their way to leave or return to their property.

(2) The prov incial govern ment's own consul ta- tions showing–showed that closing the access of some of these roads, including Sturgeon Road, was an emerging concern to residents and busi ness owners, yet the North Perimeter plan does nothing to address this issue. * (14:30)

(3) Residents and busi ness owners were assured that their concerns about access closures, including safety issues cited by engineers, would be taken into account, and access at Sturgeon Road would be maintained. However, weeks later, the median was nonetheless torn up, leaving local residents and busi - nesses scrambling.

(4) Closing all access to the Perimeter puts more people in danger, as it emboldens speeders and forces farmers to take large equip ment into heavy traffic, putting road users at risk.

(5) Local traffic, commuter traffic, school buses, emergency vehicles and commercial traffic, including 200 gravel trucks per day from Lilyfield Quarry, will all be expected to merge and travel out of their way in order to cross the Perimeter, causing increased traffic and longer response times to emergencies.

(6) Small businesses located along the Perimeter and Sturgeon Road are expecting to lose busi ness, as customers will give up on finding their –a way into their premises.

(7) Residents, business owners and those who use these roads have been left behind by the prov incial government's refusal to listen to their concerns that closures will only release –result in worsened safety and major inconveniences for users of the North Perimeter. We petition the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Mini ster of Infra structure to leave residents access to the Perimeter Highway at least every two miles along its length, especially at intersections such as Sturgeon Road, which are vital to local businesses; and

(2) To urge the Minister of Infrastructure to listen to the needs and the opinions of the local residents and

634 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 business owners who took the time to complete the Perimeter safety survey while working with engineers and technicians to ensure their concerns are addressed. And this petition, Madam Sp eaker, is signed by many Manitobans. Health-Care Coverage Mr. Jamie Moses (St. Vital): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly To the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background for this petition is as follows:

(1) Health care is a basic human right and a fundamental part of responsible public health. Many people in Manitoba are not covered by provincial health care: migrant workers with permits less than one year, international students and those undocumented residents who have lost their status for a variety of reasons.

(2) Racialized people and communities are disproportionately affected by the pandemic, mainly due to the social and economic conditions which leave them vulnerable while performing essential work in a variety of industries in Manitoba.

(3) Without adequate health -care coverage, if they are ill, many of the uninsured will avoid seeking health care due to fear of being charged for the care, and some will fear possible detention and deportation if their immigration status is reported to the authorities.

(4) According to the United Nations Human Rights Committee, denying essential health care to undocumented irregular migrants is a violation of their rights.

(5) Jurisdictions across Canada and the world have adopted access -without-fear policies to prevent sharing personal health information or immigration status with immigration authorities and to give uninsured residents the confidence to access health care.

(6) The pandemic has clearly identified the need for everyone in Manitoba to have access to health care to protect the health and safety of all who live in the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

(1) To urge the provincial government to immediately provide comprehensive and free health - care coverage to all residents of Manitoba, regardless of immigration status, including refugee claimants, migrant workers, international students, dependant children of temporary residents and undocumented residents.

(2) T o urge the Minister of Health and Seniors Care to undertake a multilingual communication campaign to provide information on expanded coverage to all affected residents.

(3) To urge the Minister of Health and Seniors Care to inform all health -care institu tions and providers of expanded coverage for those without health insurance, and the details on how necessary policy and protocol changes will be implemented.

(4) To urge the Minister of Health and Seniors Care to create and enforce strict confidentiality policies and provide staff with training to protect the safety of residents with precarious immigration status, and ensure that they can access health care without jeopardizing their ability to remain in Canada. This petition has been signed by many Manitobans. Foot-Care Services MLA Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximatel y 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern region al health author ity, N-R-H-A, previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 635

(7) The implications of inade quate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the L egislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot-care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1, 2022. And this petition, Madam Speaker, has b een signed by Ann -Margaret Ellsworth, Stacy McDuff, Mana [phonetic] McMurdo and many other Manitobans.

Vivian Sand Facility Project– Clean Environment Commission Review Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: The Vivian sands project is a proposed silica sand mine and processing plant to be built in the RM of Springfield. The overall project includes mining claims of over 85,000 hectares, making it the largest claim ever given to a single company in Manitoba's history. It is larger than the city of Winnipeg, which is 46,410 hectares.

The amount of dry, solid sand mined, produced per year, according to the EAP, is 1.36 million tons, and much of this sand will be used in fracking. A major concern of the propos ed mine and plant is that, if developed, it could contaminate the Sandilands aquifer, including both carbonate and sandstone aquifers, which covers much of south- eastern Manitoba. It has excellent water quality and is the water source for tens of thousands of Manitobans, including many municipal water systems, agriculture, industry, private wells and an abundance of wildlife and ecosystems.

Further, people in the Indigenous communities that are potentially affected by this were not afforded the required Indigenous consultation from either federal or provincial government officials. The sustainable yield of the combined sandstone and carbonate aquifers has still not yet been established by provincial authorities. The mine could cause leaching of acid and heavy metals and pollute the aquifer, as it will go down 200 feet into the Winnipeg formation of the sandstone aquifer.

There is concern that the shale, which separates the carbonate and sandstone aquifers –sand and pyritic oolite itself contains sulphides–will, when exposed to injected air from the CanWhite Sands extraction process, turn to acid. * (14:40) An additional concern with the proposed mine and plant is the potential to pollute the Brokenhead River and the aquatic food chain leading to Lake Winnipeg.

Residents in the area have also expressed fears of being overexposed to silica dust during production, as there has been a demonstrated lack of safety and environmental procedures by the CanWhite Sands Corporation during the exploratory drilling pha se. Signage and fencing has been poor; identifying and required mine claim tags were missing; there were no warnings for silica dust exposure and no covering to present exposure of the silica stockpiles to the elements. Residents' concerns include the fact that boreholes, which should have been promptly and properly sealed, were left open for a year.

The drilling of hundreds of improperly sealed boreholes yearly create significant risks of surface contamination, mixing of aquifer waters and drainage of surface fecal matter into the aquifer. There is also a risk of subsidence around each borehole as a result of sand extraction. There are also potential transboundary issues that need to be addressed as the aquifers extend into Minnesota.

This project shou ld not proceed, as no licensing conditions and mitigation measures will alleviate the risk to all Manitobans and the environment since CanWhite Sands Corporation plans to use an unprecedented mining technique with no established safe outcome. The corporation has gone on record indicating that it does not know how to mine for the silica in the water supply and need to develop a new extraction methodology that has never been done before.

Contamination of the aquifers and the environ - ment is irreversible and there are many surface sources of high purity silica that can be extracted without endangering two essential regional aquifers.

636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

(1) To urge the provincial government to undertake a combined review of the Vivian Sand Facility processing plant and the mining/extraction portion of the operation as a class 3 development with a review by Manitoba's Clean Environment Commission to include public hearings and participant funding. To urge the provinci al government to halt all activity at the mine and plant until the Clean Environment Commission's review is completed and the project proposal has been thoroughly evaluated. Signed by Janine Collison [phonetic] , Warren Leclaire [phonetic], Roger Leclaire. Diagnostic Testing Accessibility Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background of this petition has–is as follows: No. 1–[interjection] I'm waiting.

(1) Until recently, diagnostic medical tests, including for blood and fluid samples, were available and accessible in most medical clinics.

(2) Dynacare blood test labs have consolidated their blood and fluid testing services by closing 25 of its labs.

(3) The provincial government has cut diagnostic testing at many clinic sites, and residents now have to travel to different locations to get their testing done, even for a simple blood test or urine sample.

(4) Further, travel challenges for vulnerable and elderly residents of northeast Winnipeg may result in fewer tests being done or delays in testing, with the attendant effects of increased health -care costs and poorer individual patient outcomes.

(5) COVID-19 emergency rules have resulted in long outdoor lineups, putting vulnerable residents at further risk in extreme weather, be it hot or cold. Moreover, these long lineups have resulted in longer wait times for services and poorer service in general.

(6) Manitoba residents value the convenience and efficiency of the health -care system when they are able to give their samples at the time of the doctor visit. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the provincial government to immedi- ately demand Dynacare maintain all of the phlebotomy blood sample sites existing prior to the COVID-19 public health emergency, and allow all Manitobans to get their blood and urine tests done when visiting their doctor, thereby facilitating local access to blood testing services. And this petitio n is signed by many, many Manitobans. Foot-Care Services Ms.

Lisa Naylor (Wolseley): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba, the background of this petition is as follows: The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately 2,500 in the city of Thompson. A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment. A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

The northern regional health authority previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired. The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas. There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres. The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations. The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1st, 2022. We petition the legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows–oh sorry. This has been signed by Jaimie

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 637 Henderson, Leona McIvor, Albert McIvor and many other Manitobans. Mrs. Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba, the background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The population of those aged 55- plus has grown to approximately to 2,500 in the city of Thompson.

(2) A large percentage of people in this age group require necessary medical foot care and treatment.

(3) A large percentage of those who are elderly and/or diabetic are also living on low incomes.

(4) The northern regional health author ity previously provided essential medical foot- care services to seniors and those living with diabetes until 2019, then subsequently cut the program after the last two nurses filling those positions retired.

(5) The number of seniors and those with diabetes has only continued to grow in Thompson and surrounding areas.

(6) There is no adequate medical care available in the city and region,

whereas the city of Winnipeg has 14 medical foot-care centres.

(7) The implications of inadequate or lack of podiatric care can lead to amputations.

(8) The city of Thompson also serves as a regional health-care service provider, and the need for foot care extends beyond just those served in the capital city of the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to provide the services of two nurses to restore essential medical foot care treatment to the city of Thompson effective April 1, 2022. And this is signed by Debbie Brandt, Russ Brandt and Michele Genaille. Madam Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): On govern ment business, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Dev elopment will meet on Monday, March 14th, 2022 at 6 p.m. to consider the following: Bill 5, The Coat of Arms, Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amend ment Act; Bill 10,

An Act respecting Amendments to The Health Services Insurance Act, The Pharmaceutical Act and Various Cor porate Statutes; and Bill 11, The Elections Amendment Act. Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Com mittee on Social and Economic Development will meet on Monday, March 14th, 2022 at 6 p.m. to consider the following: Bill 5, The Coat of Arms, Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act; Bill 10,

An Act respecting Amend ments to The Health Services Insurance Act, The Pharmaceutical Act and Various Corporate Statutes; and Bill 11, The Elections Amendment Act. * * * * (14:50) Mr. Goertzen: I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour– Madam Speaker: The– Mr. Goertzen: Oh. I'm– Madam Speaker: The honour able Gov ernment House Leader, on government business. Mr. Goertzen: I'm new and just getting used to the role of House leader. Could you plea se call for debate this afternoon Bill 9, 12, 16 and 15.

Madam Speaker: Under orders of day, govern ment business, it has been announced that the House will consider the following bills this afternoon: second reading of Bill 9, debate on second reading of Bill 12, second readings of Bill 16 and Bill 15. SECOND READINGS Bill 9–The Scrap Metal Act Madam Speaker: I will therefore call second reading of Bill 9, The Scrap Metal Act. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I'll try again, Madam Speaker.

638 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour, Consumer Protec tion and Gov ernment Services (Mr. Helwer), that Bill 9, The Scrap Metal Act, be now read a second time and referred to a com mittee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Goertzen: I'm pleased to rise to thank – [interjection] I'd like to thank the Minister of Edu ca- tion for his applause. I'm pleased to rise in the House today to speak to this bill, Scrap Metal Act, on second reading.

Residents, officials and law en forcement agen - cies, from both urban and rural locations in Manitoba have raised concerns about the need to take greater action to address the growth of theft from metal. These concerns were em phasized in the March 1st, 2021, Engage Manitoba public enga gement survey, What We Heard Report on the dev elopment of rural crime, biosecurity and metal theft legislation. Stolen scrap metal is difficult to identify, and there are no province- wide record -keeping require - ments involving scrap metal transactions, so it can be challenging to trace and identify sellers of stolen metal.

Most concerning of all is the risk to public safety when metal is stolen from essential infrastructure, including electrical, transportation and fire safety sys- tems. The Manitoba government takes these concerns very seriously and is committed to protecting the property of all Manitobans. The bill is–purpose is to create a new act that will enhance public safety by regulating the sale of scrap metal. Mr. Andrew Micklefield, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr. Deputy Speaker, the new legislation requires scrap metal dealers to obtain and record identification and transaction infor mation from sellers of scrap metal.

Scrap metal dealers are prohibited from pur - chasing scrap metal with cash when the value of the transaction exceeds a prescribed amount, and that amount will be set out in regulation. Certain types of scrap metal are at a higher risk of being stolen, pose a greater risk to public safety if stolen or have an overriding personal sig nificance such as grave markers. The sale of these types of items will be subject to ad ditional safeguards, including reporting them to the police at prescribed intervals, so that police have timely notice of the sales having taken place.

Sometimes scrap metal dealers are–innocently or unknowingly come into possession of property with a stolen origin. In these cases, as soon as the dealer has reasonable grounds to believe this scrap metal is in their possession and is stolen property, they must im- mediately report the matter to local law en forcement. The bill contains exceptions to ensure that it is not overly burdensome on legitimate sellers or applicable to items that are at low risk of being stolen. Peace officers will be empowered to carry out any inspections to determine compliance of this act.

This will include powers to inspect and copy the records kept by scrap metal dealers. Persons who contravene the act will be liable on conviction to a fine. This legislation will come into force on proclama- tion in order to provide sufficient time for scrap metal dealers and various law enforcement agencies to pre- pare to implement its provisions and to allow for regulations to be drafted, and members may have questions about that in the question period.

Scrap metal dealers operating in the city of Winnipeg are already subject to record keeping and reporting require ments under the doing busi ness in Winnipeg bylaw, which also regulates pawn brokers. The bill will enac t a standard, province -wide regime that can be supplemented by munici palities with their own bylaws, so long as they're not in - consistent with this act, and that is true for many pieces of legislation.

Three other provinces have ex perienced similar concerns and have taken action to enhance the protec- tion of rural residents by enacting legislation to regu- late the manner of sales of certain types of scrap metal. Provinces of British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan have already enacted similar legis - lation. Each of these acts have comparable features to this bill, and will require basic identifying information about each transaction to be recorded. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we will have the op portun- ity to discuss this bill in more detail at the co mmittee stage, and of course there'll be questions, I'm sure, from members at this point. So, I will conclude my comments after I make mention of the fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I know that other members have brought forward similar pieces of private members' legislation. And it is often

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 639 the case where there is a known concern in the com - munity, that members will have heard that in their own individual constituencies, or in others that they're dealing with. And so you often see similar pieces of legislation come to this House. But that doesn't take away from the good work that other members do in terms of raising issues, and I think it speaks well of this House when multiple members, or more than one member, bring forward an issue, and ultimately the House can agree that it's something that needs to be addressed.

And it doesn't really matter which side of the House then brings forward the legis lation that is ul- timately enacted. I know that was the case when I was in op position, and I know that op position members have brought forward this legislation, as well. And I'm sure that the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), as one example, will have some ques- tions and probably want to acknowledge that he has seen this as an issue, as well.

And I think that that, again, speaks to the overall good work of the Legislature, when we can come together and recog - nize that there's an issue, and then in a common form, try to address it. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Questions Mr. Deputy Spea ker: A question period of up to 15 minutes will be held.

Questions may be addressed to the minister by any member in the following sequence: first question by the official opposition critic or designate; subsequent questions asked by critics or designates from other recognized opposition parties; subsequent questions asked by each independ- ent member; remaining questions asked by any opposition members. No question or answer shall exceed 45 seconds. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I'd like to thank the minister for introducing the bill.

At the recent bill briefing that we had, I recall the minister or the minister's staff making reference to the amount of cash, the limit –the cash limits that would be part of this bill. So, I'd ask him if he could confirm that the cash limit that was mentioned at the briefing was, in fact, $50, because he didn't indicate that in his speech just now. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I thank my friend for asking that question, Mr. Deputy Speaker, along with attending the briefing that we had. He's correct.

That question did come up in the briefing, and I think I said at that time, and I'll repeat for the House, that it seems to me that $50 seems like a reasonable dollar amount. Of course, it'll be pre- scribed in legislation, but I would expect it would be either that number, or in the ballpark of that number. Mr. Maloway: With reference to the database that would be kept, and I –you know, I'm thinking now more of Alberta, but I'm certain that you're going to have to –Manitoba's going to have to do the same thing.

In terms of the database that's going to be kept, who is going to keep that, and where is it going to be kept? Is it going to be kept by MPIC, you know, o ut of province? Is it going to be –well, anyway, just let me know what we're going to be doing with this. Mr. Goertzen: It is valuable for two young people like myself and the member for Elmwood to be speaking about databases, and how the techno logy is going to be maintained. I think that that has yet to be determined in terms of the nature of the database, and how it'll be main- tained, or where it'll be maintained.

But certainly there will have to be a database, and a way to record the information that is provided. And I'm sure that we can speak more about that at committee, but it hasn't been determined at this point. * (15:00) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question relates to

section 6, where there's a specific exemption for any corporation that is able to carry on business in Manitoba. And my concern is this: that, you know, individuals who are stealing scrap metal or catalytic converters or other things, that there could be an incentive to form a corporation–might not necessarily related to scrap metal–but that would then sell– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The member's time has expired. Mr. Goertzen: I think I understood the point that the member was making and, I mean, I get the point. I think that the likelihood, based on who we're seeing stealing the metal– it seems unlikely.

He almost– it almost seems like he's talking about more of an organized crime kind of perspective to be involved in this.

640 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 But, you know, it is a point worth making and it's certainly something worth watching. O bviously, there's a good reason why we exempt cor porations who, under the sellers

section of 6, but certainly, we can watch it and if there are a need to make changes in the future, we can make changes. Mr. Maloway: I'd like to know whether the minister has looked at the Alberta legis lation. While it's –it is similar to this bill, there's no provision for in carcer- ation and given that the ex perience in Alberta is actually turning out more adverse and worse as time goes by, in that more thefts are hap pening out there, does he not think that by not having an incar ceration provision–is setting himself back quite a– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The member's time has expired. Mr.

Goertzen: Well, and there may be other related offences that happen that could result in an individual being incarcerated and, of course, that would be deter- mined by the courts, Mr. Deputy Speaker. But if he's suggesting that, you know, the fine provisions aren't enough for deterrence, I think with all pieces of legis lation as it deals with, you know, criminal matters are handled federally. But certainly in property matters, the deal with fines in Manitoba, as an example, we learn from the experiences and if there is a need at some point to add a provision that involves incarceration, that could be considered.

Mr. Gerrard: Yes, the minister has referred to legis- lation in BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan. Can the minister tell us whether that legis lation has been effective in reducing thefts of catalytic converters, for example. Have that decreased in Alberta and BC or Saskatchewan or not? Mr. Goertzen: I can't provide, although I'll make a note of it and try to provide comparisons at com mit- tee, so I'll make a note that the member has asked this question, try to give him som e more detailed descriptions about the comparisons when we get to the committee stage.

But from what I'm advised from officials is that it has been effective in other provinces and that's largely why we've mirrored the legis lation that they've had in other provinces. The member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) acknowledges that it's been pretty robustly used in Alberta, I think his reference was, but we can provide, I think at committee, some data and–best we can find from those other provinces. Mr. Malowa y: Well, the fact is, for the past three years, the experience has gotten way worse in Alberta.

And so the question is, if the cases are getting worse, then how can we expect that by bringing in a weaker bill to start with that we're going to, you know, make up for this lost ground. It would seem to me that if you already know you've got three big increases in the last three years, you'd be wanting to put in some incar ceration provisions in here. Maybe you'll want to do this at committee. Mr. Goertzen: My friend will know I'm always open to discussions at com mittees and we've amended things at different points. I don't believe that gov ern- ment or op position has a monopoly on good ideas, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. I think when we're looking at the le gislation in Manitoba, we have to recog nize that there are other reasons that we can see increases in activity, and sometimes it just relates to how robust the en force- ment is. Because, often, we find in these sort of activities, that the deterrence isn 't the penalty; the deterrence is the likelihood of getting caught. And so enforcement can play as much of a role as the penalty does. Mr.

Gerrard: One of the major problems with the scrap metal industry has been the pollution that is associated with it, and, in particular, concerns about high lead levels in areas where there's scrap metal industries. I wonder if the minister, in his discussions with people in the industry, had discussions about the problem of lead and pollution, and its adverse effec ts on children? Mr. Goertzen: Yes, and I know in this House we've often discussed the issue of lead in soil and the challenge and health hazards that that causes, not, of course, just specific to this industry.

But, I would say, it's beyond the scope of this legislation, but it's not a point that's not worth making. And so, I think all of us have concerns when it comes to, you know, the health of our soil and of our environ- ment, but that isn't specific to this. This is specific about trying to stop an activity that is criminal and that is causing a lot of harm to individuals and to industry. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, just to –the major concern is not necessarily the health of the soil, but the health of the children who live in the area.

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 641 And, clearly, wheth er it is lead manufacturing, whether it is scrap metal, that this is a major concern, and that the major concern is that there are high blood levels–high blood lead levels in children and adults in the area. So, I hope that the minister will follow up on that. I wonder if–the minister has already talked about Alberta and Saskatchewan. What has been the track record in Saskatchewan and BC if Alberta has actually got– Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired. Mr.

Goertzen: On this one, I didn't quite get the question, because, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you were exercising your powers on the timeline in the right and diligent way. But I think he was still asking for comparisons between the other provinces in terms of how the legislation is operating. And I committed to him, or to the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), but I'll commit to both of them that we'll look to get some data on comparisons of activity from the other provinces on legislation and present it at committee. Mr.

Maloway: I'd like to ask the minister, in his process of consultations with the industry, can he give me a list of companies that he consulted with? I know as far as Orloff is concerned, they did put up a sign about six, eight months ago, maybe even longer, asking for identification and stuff. So it looks like they're doing some of the provisions or the requirements of the bill already without even being asked unless, in fact, they were consulted by his staff. So, will he just let us know where things are at with the consultation process? Mr.

Goertzen: Because I value my friendship with the member for Elmwood, I would not want to start listing off companies or entities that were consulted with and miss any. And he'll also know that this bill and the con sultation part –portions of it would have happened under a previous minister. But I will, at com mittee, provide him a detailed list that would not, in any way, jeopardize our friend- ship by ensuring that it is complete and fulsome on the consultation. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the MLA for St.

Boniface, has been very concerned about the increase in crime in his con stituency and the in - crease in problems in terms of scrap metal and people stealing metals that they could use and sell as scrap metal. The minister has talked about en forcement. Will there be a specific effort at better enforcement in areas where there have been such high crime rates? * (15:10) Mr. Goertzen: Of course, the member knows that en- forcement falls to law enforcement, and that's why they're called law en forcement. And, ultimately, you know, we rely upon them in terms of the enforcement that is happening in areas.

But I do know that they very closely look at trends and things that are happening when i t comes to crime, and they will specifically look to enforce areas and certain kinds of crime where they're happening in a disproportionate level. So I think the member can rest assured that law enforcement is not unaware of situations that are happening in different areas and regarding different crimes, and they do apply their resources to them when they see that they can. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Are there any further questions? Debate Mr. Deputy Speaker: Seeing none, the floor is open for debate. Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I really do want to thank the minister for taking the initiative in bringing this bill forward as part of a gov ernment bill. I mean, for many, many years, we have introduced consumer- type legislation here. You know, I've done it nationally as well with the air passenger bill of rights and, you know, there we were able to get the bill passed into second reading and we go to committee with the support of parties at the time: Liberals, the–not the Conservatives, not the Conservatives, but Liberals, Bloc and the NDP.

And the environment, you know, in Ottawa is, in some respects, more conducive to this kind of barter - ing, I guess, when it comes to legis lation. For ex - ample, there we have the Q and A now that we adopted from them which seems to be working quite well. But one system they have there that we don't have here–and we could adopt it if we wanted to change the rules again –involve co -sponsoring of bills. And I know that a lot of–Joy Smith being one–was out doing co-sponsoring of some of her bills with some of the

642 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 NDP members, vice versa, and it's a lot of cross - pollination there in the private members' part of the legislation. But having said that, I still say that the minister's done the right thing here by seeing an oppor tunity to bring in some legis lation that is going to address, or will address to some degree, anyway, this problem that is just getting bigger and bigger.

I mean, the numbers are there and rarely a week goes by when my office doesn't get a phone call or an email from one of our own con stituents or constit uents in other con - stituencies in Manitoba where this theft is happening. And you know what really irritates people more than anything is that they have to pay a betterment fee to get the catalytic converte r replaced. So first of all, the catalytic converter is getting stolen, and then they have to deal with the deductible with Autopac and they also have to deal with the betterment fee. And they really have a big dif ficulty understanding what that is.

But that's just simply an insurance principle that you're not supposed to be benefitting by the loss, and so when your catalytic convert er gets stolen, you're actually getting a better car, I guess, because you've got a catalytic converter with all kinds of pre - cious metals in it and so they do charge that extra fee. And there was a case recently, there have been quite a number of cases, but there was the case of –at Loveday Mushrooms over in St. Boniface where a bunch of the staff th ere had their catalytic converters stolen.

And, of course, now people don't want to drive their vehicles to work anymore, and they don't want to park them outside where somebody can get under the car and steal it–catalytic converter. Just to tell you how quick some of these thieves can operate, there was within the last year an instance on a weekend, I think, an evening, at one of the car dealerships on Nairn highway where a group of thieves came in, two or three– this is just with the lights on and every thing.

There was, like –it was a well-lit lot, and they get their cutters and they get – there's–somebody's a lookout, and they get out–one of them gets under the vehicle and cuts off the catalytic converter in three or four minutes, and away they go on to the next vehicle. And, actually, what they do is they have a shopping list. They could go online and you can get a list of all the most stolen catalytic converters.

And did you know –I don't know what kind of vehicles you're all driving here, but we have the No. 1 ca r that has a catalytic converter stolen, pre- sumably that will be one that has a higher value catalytic converter, is a Honda CR- V. And last year, 201 of them were stolen. So they print out a list of what they –the most–or the most valuable catalytic converters are, and then they go around looking for them. Probably, you know, if that's a Honda CR-V, I'll guess the smartest place to go would be the Honda dealer because that's where you're going to find the most of them.

And they did this in –you know, like–well, broad daylight. It was night, but the lights were on. And, believe it or not, the police came and arrested them, so that they weren't so smart after all because they did get caught. Another–No. 2, the second most popular catalytic converter stolen is a Hyundai Tucson; and another Hyundai is next, Hyundai Santa Fe. So if you're driving a CR -V, a Hyundai Tucson –Honda CR -V, Hyundai Tucson, Hyundai Santa Fe, there's 201, 198 and 129. And the Sportage, the Honda Element, the F-450, the F -150, Toyota Pri us and Ford van and a Honda Pilot. Those are your top 10.

And, after that, it drops off, I guess, and so your catalytic converter is not as popular. And I've taken to, you know, getting my picture taken with people that have their converters stolen. We've had two of them now in the local newspaper, in the Herald, and they're just– it's totally shocking to them when this happens. I've got one woman in a seniors' home at 505 Munroe, and, you know, you go out to your car and you get in and you try to start it, and it sounds like an airplane engine, it makes so much noise, and that's how you find out about this.

So people don't even know; like, it's not that they even know what it is. So, now we have the battle of the bills and we have, essentially–we had a bill out in BC, I think that was probably the first one. And then we have the Alberta bill, which is now in its, I guess, third year. And so, we're try ing to –we should be able to learn from our mistakes. That would be my guess on the matter. And so, what you have in Alberta, you have a situation there where you've got, like, three years ex - perience, and so, common sense should say that, if your number of thefts is going up each year in spite of

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 643 the fact that you've got this bill, maybe there's some- thing that you should be –you know, you could improve in the bill. So, one of the things we did here with our Bill 215 is we required the dealers to keep records for five years. It's common, you're–you do that for income tax purposes, so I don't see why this would be a big issue. But the gov ernment bill, Bill 9, that we're de- bating today, is only requiring two years of records.

It seems to me that five years would be, you know, given what Alberta's going through right now with three years, that doing five years record keeping is probably, you know, not a bad idea. * (15:20) Then we've got into the issue of the penalties. And we said, well, okay, let's look and see what Alberta is giving in terms of penalties under their bill. And what you find is that the Manitoba bill, it basically is copying Alberta, right? Basically it just did what the Liberals did; the Liberals just copied Alberta. Well, that's what the Manitoba government is doing right now too. And, well, absolutely you did.

And so that's what they did. And they're doing this at a time when, like, we're three–you know, the horse has been out of the barn now, for three years. So I could understand if you were going into this and this was all new, brand new, legis- lation. I could understand Alberta saying, well, you know, nobody's got this–well, BC–nobody's got legis- lation like this, so why don't we go in easy and maybe, you know, go in with lesser fines, lesser record keeping, having the onus for lesser record keeping and go in that way?

But when you're Manitoba and you're already like, you've seen the other guy, three years now, operating this legislation, you should be able to draw some conclusions at this point, right? The numbers are not dropping at all. The numbers are skyrocketing up, okay? So you probably need to be more prescriptive than less prescriptive. So, what did they do? Well, Bill 9, he's asking – the gov ernment's asking for gov ernment ID being required. Well, our Bill 215 does the same. So it's gov- ernment-issued ID. We want the records to be kept for five years. The government is following Alberta: two years.

They're only interested in two -years record keeping. I guess, maybe, it's like, onerous to, like, write some more stuff in your book, right? To go from two years –it seemed to me, if you're doing it for two years, you could probably do it for five years; it wouldn't be a big problem. Also, they –in terms of the excluded items, we both–both bills have the same idea there, leaving normal metal cans and stuff excluded under the bill.

We are both putting a cap on the cash side of it of $50; that's an arbitrary figure that–which somebody had to do a call on, but I think $50 is probably–we should have some cash limit, and $50 is what the government is suggesting at this point, so I guess that's what it's going to be. Don't forget, too, that not all of this has to be in the legislation, that some of this can be in the regula- tions too, and governments tend to do that.

They tend to pass a bill, and the bill has its provisions, and then what you do is you promulgate the regula tions over six months after the bill passes, and then you bring everything into force. And so it's e asy to change the regulations, way easier than it is to change the legis - lation. So I can see where maybe some of this they will want to change, want to bring in by regulation, so that if things don't work out, they don't have to come back to the Legislature; they can make some changes at that point. Now, there is a require ment under both bills to report suspected stolen property.

And, you know, that's certainly a problem. And that's the same with both bills. And then we get down to the issue of the penal- ties, and for some reason, the Alberta–the government bill, here, based on Alberta, has a $5,000 -maximum first offence fine for an individual and $15,000 for a corporation,

whereas our bill is $10,000 maximum for first offence for an individual and $30,000 for a cor - poration, so twice as much. So, we want to get serious with the organized crime syndicates that are operating in this business. And you're going to get more serious with them if you double the fines, I would suggest. And , clearly, because the fines aren't working right now in Alberta. Why? Because the number of thefts is going up. Now, the $15,000–the government bill is $15,000 second offence and subsequent offences for an individual, $50,000 for a corporation and no incarcer- ation at all under the gov ernment bill,

whereas ours was $10,000 for that first offence, $30,000 for a cor - poration and then $30,000 second and subsequent

644 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 offence for individuals and $100,000 for a cor por- ation. So, you know, maybe when we get into com - mittee and when we hear feedback and so on that, perhaps the govern ment will relent and maybe increase those penal ties, those fines, and maybe in - clude an imprisonment part of it, and that would be a big help. Now, the catalytic converters –most people, you know, like, even recently, didn't–had never even heard of a catalytic converter.

So now this is something that is becoming more well known, and the fact that these things are spiking, and I think it's going to be even more of an issue as time goes by. Some of the precious metals that we're looking at here are rhodium, palladium, platinum. And these items are, like, really worth a lot of money. I don't hear too many people, you know, breaking into jewelry stores anymore, stealing the rings. They're goi ng after catalytic converters. I mean, who would have thought that? And, like I said, that–some of them are paying up to $800, so that's not bad, eh?

I mean, you've got your list, and you go out for a little walk, walk around the neighbourhood, walk around Transcona, and just take a look there and see what's parked on the street. Maybe go visit some of your friends. But you can see how expensive some of these items are. So the organized groups of criminals–and, by the way, I have pictures here of some of the people that are active in this whole –in this busi ness. And you know something? They're quite a serious bunch. Like, you've got people who are well armed. Like, there's a picture–this is a picture from the Calgary Herald.

So Calgary Herald has catalytic converter thieves arrested with thousands of rounds of ammunition. Like, what in the world are they doing with thousands of rounds of ammunition? And they say, police seize thousands of rounds of ammunition, stolen catalytic converters and body armour after searching an Airdrie home on Sunday. This was January the 18th, this year, just recently. And here's a picture. Here's a picture of what they picked up in the home. They picked up– Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. An Honourable Member: One, two, three, four – about six guns along with all these– Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. Members are not meant to be waving pictures around the House while they're speaking. That's considered a prop. And I do believe that if the member wishes to table that image, then that option is available, but to display it as was being done I believe is a violation of the rules. [interjection] Oh–[interjection] * (15:30) Order, please. I do need to recognize the member before the member can resume speaking. Mr.

Maloway: Yes, we are well aware that we're not supposed to be having exhibits in the House and certainly there've been lots of creative exhibits over the years that we can all think back to seeing around here, but I'm not seeing any dead fish in recent years or dead animals being brought in here as an exhibit. I really didn't think that was going to qualify, but I guess it does. So, anyway, thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

So, this happened in Airdrie, Alberta just recent- ly, and–January 16th, and they found a guy who was wanted on outstanding warrants and they –there was stolen vehicles involved and there were –arrested a number of people. So this is quite an enterprise that people are finding them selves into right now and it's not getting any bette r, you know. It's not going to resolve itself that quickly. Now, another case in –also in Edmonton, the Edmonton's Food Bank was–had its catalytic con - verter stolen from its delivery trucks –from two of its delivery trucks during the busiest time of the year.

And so, once again, there was a shock about that. But now, there is a program out in Alberta and it's sad that we have to–it has to come to this, but they say: you etch it, we catch it. And so what these– what this program is, is they want people to put vehicle identification numbers–VIN numbers–onto their cata- lytic converters free of charge, and then this is what businesses are doing in Alberta. They–according to the RCMP, catalytic converter thefts have been on the rise since 2019. So, this is in Alberta: 2019, there was 29 cases.

That number jumped to 100–this is in Leduc, Alberta: that number jumped to 106 in 2020, so the next year; and this year 100–150. And so, you know, I know in my area, people have said, well, you can go ahead and climb under the car and put markings on them, right, but, you know, people are incensed enough about this issue; they don't want to be climbing under their car and putting stickers and so on and identification on their catalytic converter. And when the item is sto len, it's easy enough, I would think, for the thieves to go and file

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 645 the number off. But nevertheless, that's something they've been looking at in Alberta. And Edmonton police charged a man recently after finding 500 stolen converters in a storage locker. Now, who could possibly maintain that 500 of these things was just like, you know, a onesie and twosie, right? Like, I just stole one here or I steal one there – but 500 of them? That is a serious number of catalytic converters. And the question is who's buying these things? Like, how are they getting them to the final place?

So, anyhow, I really think they've got to put some–maybe commercial crime–RCMP commercial crime was going to have to spend some real effort into finding out exactly where things are going. The catalytic converters can be removed in seconds, and, for example, they're saying, well, it's easy money, and so in Alberta they have companies, like Fountain Tire, Kal Tire, Canadian Tire, Chrysler Dodge Jeep, they're all gotten involved in h ere to provide this etching service for the items.

So the govern ment is in good company here because, by bringing this in right now as a government bill with us supporting it, hopefully with getting a couple of amendments out of it, I think if you have the business involved, like you have out in Alberta, there's a decent chance that we can slow down some of this activity, because this is not something that we want to let get further out of hand here.

So, you know, I think there's a few other point s that I could make about this, but I suspect we also have some more of my –oh, these would be exhibits, I guess, eh –but these are happy con stituents of Elmwood who are posing with me regarding the catalytic converters. I'm just pointing out to you that it can't be just Elmwood that's active. I'm sure there's a lot of activity on this going here with other, like, everywhere. I mean, there's no one con stituency that this is not a part of. Now, I'm just going to take another quick look here at some of the Alberta infor mation. The

article that I'm looking at right now talks about catalytic converter thefts up across Alberta despite legis lation to curb crime. And the–they're talking about the Edmonton food bank has multiple catalytic converters stolen in recent years, including last February. Catalytic converter thefts have risen across Alberta despite the legislation, so in spite of legislation aimed at making it harder for criminals to sell stolen metals for scrap, and this is what Alberta is facing.

So, for those of us here in the Legislature who thought that, good, we're going to get this catalytic converter legis lation, we're going to follow Edmonton, we're going to follow Alberta, and this is all going to solve the problem, well, sadly, that' s not what I'm here to tell you about. The news is the opposite, that this is a situation that has deteriorated, it's gotten worse, not better, and that we are catching up, or trying to catch up, after the problem has got itself in a worse situation. So how this is all going to shake out now over the last–over the next little while?

I'm not a hundred per cent sure, but nevertheless, the –we're going to have to have com mittee hearings on this bill, and hopefully there will be maybe more than just the interested people appearing before the com mittee. Hopefully we can attract some people that have actually had these catalytic converters stolen them - selves. And I also did want to make a comment, too. This is not all– only about catalytic converters. We're talking about copper wire here as well, and there are issues.

There's construction sites where copper wire and other metals are being stolen from –very, very common when people are building new homes. There's also Hydro sites.

There have been cases with Manitoba Hydro where people have broken into the Hydro site and loaded up the copper wire and taken it away. * (15:40) And not only that, but somebody in the –in downtown Winnipeg was telling me about how there's a really bad practice that goes on with some p eople, that they are taking the copper wire and they burn the rubber off the wire to strip it down to just pure copper, and it's worth more money; it's worth, like, double the amount when that is done.

Unfortunately, the people doing it cause them - selves a lot of, you know, health problems, medical problems, because it's a poisonous exercise. And I've heard, you know, more than one case of this happening, and so this is another thing that we're going to have to come to grips with this. Anyway, I want to thank you very much for your time. I'm sure that many of you are excited and would like to listen for another hour or two, but that's not to be the case today.

646 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 So thank you very much. House Business Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (Official Opposition House Leader): On House business. Pursuant to rule 33(8), I am announcing that the private member's reso lution to be considered on the next Thursday of private members' busi ness, will be one put forward by the honourable member for Notre Dame (MLA Marcelino). The title of the resolution is Calling on the Prov incial Gov ernment to Improve Adult Education. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: It has been announced that the private member's reso lution to be considered on the next Thursday of private members' busi ness will be the one put forward by the hon ourable member for Notre Dame. The title of the reso lution is Calling on the Provincial Government to Improve Adult Educa- tion. * * * Mr. Dennis Smook (La Vérendrye): It is an honour to be able to stand up in this House today and put some words on record in regards to Bill No. 9, The Scrap Metal Act, brought forward by our Minister of Justice (Mr. Goertzen).

In businesses that I have been involved in, I did have dealings with scrap metal dealers, as our com - panies did generate a fair bit of scrap metal. A couple times of year, some scrap metal dealer would come around and we would sell him our scrap metal. This would include batteries, old engines, car parts and catalytic converters. I know the member from Elmwood has been very passionate about this subject, especially catalytic converters, so I would like to share a story with him about how things have changed over the years.

Back then, nobody would put a new catalytic converter on when theirs was plugged up , as back then, there was still leaded gas and unleaded gas, so they would eventually plugged up if leaded gas was used. They would just put a pipe in its place. Many manufacturers made a custom pipe that fit right in place. Of course, that is illegal today; you're not allowed to replace a catalytic converter. It's part of the emission standards. Back then, we would have several catalytic con - verters in the scrap pile as they were not worth a lot of money. If we got between $2 and $5 for one we were happy.

Now they could bring several hundred dollars on the market. Since then things have changed. The prices for scrap metal has gone up a lot, especially for metals like copper, aluminum, brass, bronze, nickel, stainless steel and many others. With the constant rise in scrap metal prices, the temptation to collect metals that do not belong to you has increased. Today, we're always hearing stories about the theft of things like wire that is made from copper or aluminum, batteries from vehicles, especially f rom equipment that may have several batteries.

Older homes that may have lightning rods on the roofs with heavy copper wire going down to the ground rods–this one may not be as prevalent as some of the other thefts, but I'm sure the member from Elmwood is old enough to know about the ground rods and the lightning rods on the roofs. The theft of catalytic converters right off the vehicles that they are part of has increased immensely. A thief can slide under a vehicle with a simple pipe cutter and in minutes remove a catalytic converter and be gone.

We know that the theft of metals has grown over the years, and there are more residents, both rural and urban, filing complaints. Law en forcement agen- cies are asking for changes so they can make it more difficult for thieves to be able to sell the stolen scrap metal. Bill 9 puts some accountability and traceability into the scrap -metal busi ness. Stolen scrap metal is difficult to identify, and there are no province- wide record-keeping requirements involving scrap metal transaction, making it difficult to trace and identify. Bill 9 will regulate the sale of scrap metal.

The new legislation requires scrap metal dealers to obtain and record identification and transaction infor mation from sellers of scr ap metal. The bill also prohibits dealers from purchasing scrap metal with cash when the value of the transaction exceeds the prescribed amount. The legis lation also lists a number of restricted items that, if purchased, a scrap metal dealer must provide records collected at the time of transaction to a law enforcement agency responsible for that area.

If someone comes in with a new roll of copper wire that weighs several hundred pounds, it could be assumed that it was probably stolen and should be reported. In this legis lation, peace officers will be em - powered to carry out any inspections to deter mine compliance with the act. This will include powers to inspect records kept by scrap-metal dealers.

March 10, 2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 647 This legislation is not meant to create extra work for scrap-metal dealers. There are several exemptions in this bill that make it possible for scrap-metal dealers to conduct their normal day-to-day business. Other provinces have enacted similar legis lation to help combat the theft of valuable metals and protect the property and safety of their residents. This legis - lation is meant to make the scrap -metal industry accountable and transparent. I feel this is an important piece of legislation that will help reduce the amount of scrap -metal thefts.

I look forward to seeing it going to com mittee and becoming law. Thank you. MLA Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): It gives me some pleasure to stand up and talk about this scrap metal act, and I guess I really have to give the Minister of Justice (Mr. Goertzen) some credit, which is not like me to really give him much credit. You know, he doesn't have many good ideas of his own, but at least he recognized when the member from Elmwood had a good idea, and he was willing to act on it. Now, he didn't go quite as far as the member from Elmwood would have liked.

He didn't really grasp the full concept of what he should have been doing with this particular piece of legislation. But it is a start. And I guess, having talked briefly with the member from Elmwood about how his research has gone into this, and reports that, you know, in fact, once some jurisdictions implemented similar-type legisla- tion, that the number of thefts have went way up. So, the minister here is late to the party, but he's introduced the bare- bones basic that he could have introduced. When we look at a juris diction like Alberta that recognized that, well, this didn't stop things.

They've now upped the minimum first-penalty fine to a fine of up to $10,000; $25,000 for a second offense; and up to a year in jail for these offenses, plus it could be combined, the maximum fine and jail time. Now, they've also updated the cor porate fines, which I didn't really see in our regulation anything about corporate fines. Now, I may have missed it, so I'm sure someone will point out to me that it's there. But recognizing–[interjection] How much? * (15:50) An Honourable Member: A hundred thousand.

MLA Lindsey: So, you know, some juris dictions have put their fines at–[interjection] So, there we go. [interjection] Yes. So, you want to know who I consulted with; now you know who I consulted with. So, there are jail times and stuff and cor porate offences in some of these other juris dictions, but the point of–that I was trying to make was some jurisdic- tions did start off down here, but we've had the oppor- tunity to look at what other jurisdictions have already done, and we could have at least done that and possibly done some thing more. But, again, we've chosen to do the minimum.

And I guess we really need to look at if this passes second reading and if it gets on to third reading –and you never know with these things, whether it will pass. It may not pass today; it may not pass next week. But whenever it does, if it does, let's hope that the Minister of Justice will be amenable to making some changes to this piece of legis lation to make it better legislation, to make it the best legis lation, so that instead of just following what other jurisdictions have already done, we could actually lead and show people, show other jurisdictions, that we're serious about this.

Now, we talked about some of the negative con - sequences of getting caught. But there are some questions that perhaps, I guess, I should have asked during the question and answer period is, we have jurisdictions already –Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC – that have started these registries. And now we're going to start a registry. So the question, then, becomes will these registries be able to link to each other so that someone who has been found to be selling materials in Saskatchewan and then they slip across the border and sell some in Manitoba and then slip across the border, sell some in Alberta.

So, we need to be able to track those because that's really where you'll find a lot of the organized crime is. They won't just commit those crimes in one jurisdiction, because they'd very quickly be able to figure out, well, if we're doing it too often here, we're going to get caught. So they'll spread it out. So those databases need to be linked so that that person, those people, become recognizable across the juris dictions so that it becomes clear that they are part of an organized group of criminals that are doing this.

You know, there's another componen t to this which is part of the busi ness that this gov ernment doesn't grasp, and that's poverty. I get the fact that there's organized groups stealing, parti cularly,

648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 2022 catalytic converters, but there's also poor people that have very limited options as to where they can get money from. And one of the places that they can actually get money, unfor tunately, is from selling scrap metal. And, I mean, you've seen all sorts of folks with their shopping carts and cans and different recyclable things. But if th ere's an op portunity to very quickly make some more money to help feed your kids, to pay the rent, then this government hasn't done anything to address those poverty conditions.

In fact, most of the things that they've done have created more poor people, not less. So that, then, leads into more crime, which we see the statistics, and they're going up, not down, as well. So while we're talking very specific ally about this scrap metal legislation here today, we need to look at the bigger picture at some point in time, and that point in time has well passed. We need to look at how we can do things to help people get out of poverty that don't involve crime.

And there has to be ways to do that through educa tion, through proper rent controls, through proper rent assist issues, through job creation, which gets into the whole bigger picture that this gov- ernment bought into shortly after they came to power with the free trade agreements that traded away our young people's jobs and our young people's opportun- ity to get ahead. So we need to really look at a lot of those bigger picture items that come back to haunt us in these very specific things that this bill attempts to address, and it won't.

We'll find, I'm sure, very similar to what other jurisdictions, that even though we put all this stuff in place with this particular piece of legislation, that the crime is going to continue to go up as long as we continue to create more poor people. So we really need to get our heads wrapped around how we can help people out of poverty, which then helps prevent crime, which helps prevent a whole bunch of other things. But we're here today to talk very specifically about scrap metal and that kind of crime. So let's hope that the government is listening and gets over some of their hyperbole about all the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	42-4-21b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	42nd 4th hansardpdf 21b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	21fe808be60e7e4aa61a34d6f7af8c05356bdd23

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